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JamaicanYouth
06-25-2011, 02:34 PM
Are they stars or superstars?

Cano4prez
06-25-2011, 02:39 PM
I'd say stars but Griffin will become a superstar if he's not one already

Avenged
06-25-2011, 02:43 PM
They are both stars.

Griffin will eventually become a superstar soon.

Love, in my opinion, will be a consistent all-star. He'll never reach superstardom but will be a great #2.

NYKnicksAllDay
06-25-2011, 03:15 PM
They are both stars.

Griffin will eventually become a superstar soon.

Love, in my opinion, will be a consistent all-star. He'll never reach superstardom but will be a great #2.

/thread

Raoul Duke
06-25-2011, 03:17 PM
Griffin is a borderline superstar because he puts bodies in the seats. He's a guy people specifically buy tickets to see, even fans of other teams that want to watch him on the road. You rarely find players that generate that kind of interest.

JamaicanYouth
06-25-2011, 03:36 PM
Griffin is a borderline superstar because he puts bodies in the seats. He's a guy people specifically buy tickets to see, even fans of other teams that want to watch him on the road. You rarely find players that generate that kind of interest.
Just because he puts bodies in seats dont make him a superstar.A superstar is someone who can carry a team despite a bad supporting cast. I just dont think griffin can do that

Swashcuff
06-25-2011, 03:47 PM
Just because he puts bodies in seats dont make him a superstar.A superstar is someone who can carry a team despite a bad supporting cast. I just dont think griffin can do that

Was Kareem Abdul Jabbar in his PRIME considered a superstar?

John Walls Era
06-25-2011, 03:49 PM
Just because he puts bodies in seats dont make him a superstar.A superstar is someone who can carry a team despite a bad supporting cast. I just dont think griffin can do that

Because he had a rookie season where he avgd about 22.5 and 12? Its ridiculous to see people that don't think Griffin can lead a team when hes only played 1 year.

Kyben36
06-25-2011, 04:03 PM
ILl say both are stars, but Griffin has the potential to be a superstar easily. Love will never IMO be a go to player in the nba.

JamaicanYouth
06-25-2011, 04:06 PM
Griffin is a star but def. not a superstar(same as Love) yet he has plenty of time but everyone gets caught up in the dunks and automatically thinks superstar i just wanted to clear the air about the differences between a star and a superstar

Swashcuff
06-25-2011, 04:13 PM
Griffin is a star but def. not a superstar(same as Love) yet he has plenty of time but everyone gets caught up in the dunks and automatically thinks superstar i just wanted to clear the air about the differences between a star and a superstar

No one ever claimed Blake Griffin was a superstar. No one, will he become one one day he ABSOLUTELY will.

If you ask me you didn't clear anything up because you said superstars are someone who can carry a team despite a bad supporting cast and history has proven to us that even the biggest superstars have had issues of leading a team to a playoff birth or even a winning record.

I have NEVER seen anyone on this entire forum say Blake Griffin IS already a superstar.

I have NEVER seen anyone on this entire forum say Kevin Love IS already a superstar.

Do they have the potential to become IMO YES, Blake more so than Kevin but no one believes that they are already superstars in the NBA.

Jewelz0376
06-25-2011, 04:15 PM
A superstar to me is a player that is/could be the best player on a champion contending team right now.... Griffin or Love might be that in the future, but as of right now they aren't...So I would say they are both stars...

Clippersfan86
06-25-2011, 04:16 PM
Anyone who makes an all star team in their first season despite the rarity and odds of it.. is probably a superstar (outside of Yao who had a billion fans). I think Griffin is a borderline superstar now.. he's on the brink. I think a lot of what makes a superstar is how much better he makes his teammates and his ability to be the guy making the plays at the end of games. Griffin did both in spades this year.

He got Baron playing motivated and good basketball again, DJ had a blowup year and said he gives a lot of the credit to Blake... and Eric Gordon had a breakout year with Blake demanding doubles all the time and sometimes triples. As for being clutch or go to at end of games.. Griffin took over in the 4th multiple times... hit clutch shot after clutch shot AND especially had tons of clutch rebounds and charges taken.

Kevin Love is a little more complete than Griffin right now but he doesn't elevate the play of his teammates like Blake. He doesn't take over games down the stretch. He doesn't get double teamed or triple teamed like Blake.

So my answer is this.

Kevin Love is the better all around, more efficient player right now... but Blake Griffin is a on that superstar border due to the intangibles he possesses and the much more difficult defensive schemes he faces.

By next season I have 0 doubt in my mind Blake Griffin will surpass Love. I still think both are going to be the best PF's in the game within 2 seasons.

Swashcuff
06-25-2011, 04:19 PM
Anyone who makes an all star team in their first season despite the rarity and odds of it.. is probably a superstar (outside of Yao who had a billion fans). I think Griffin is a superstar now and if not.. he's on the brink. I think a lot of what makes a superstar is how much better he makes his teammates and his ability to be the guy making the plays at the end of games. Griffin did both in spades this year.

He got Baron playing motivated and good basketball again, DJ had a blowup year and said he gives a lot of the credit to Blake... and Eric Gordon had a breakout year with Blake demanding doubles all the time and sometimes triples. As for being clutch or go to at end of games.. Griffin took over in the 4th multiple times... hit clutch shot after clutch shot AND especially had tons of clutch rebounds and charges taken.

Kevin Love is a little more complete than Griffin right now but he doesn't elevate the play of his teammates like Blake. He doesn't take over games down the stretch. He doesn't get double teamed or triple teamed like Blake.

So my answer is this.

Kevin Love is the better all around, more efficient player right now... but Blake Griffin is a superstar due to the intangibles he possesses and the much more difficult defensive schemes he faces.

By next season I have 0 doubt in my mind Blake Griffin will surpass Love. I still think both are going to be the best PF's in the game within 2 seasons.

How many superstars do you see in the NBA at this very moment, because IMO there are about 6 maybe less.

Clippersfan86
06-25-2011, 04:28 PM
How many superstars do you see in the NBA at this very moment, because IMO there are about 6 maybe less.

Very good question because obviously how we define a Superstar may differ. I think a player can be better than another and the worse one be a superstar. I already explained what a superstar is in my opinion vaguely. Players with that "It" factor.. and Griffin is one of them. The intangibles like clutch, leadership, work ethic, hustle.... can make a guy like Griffin who isn't a top 10 player yet.. a superstar IN MY OPINION.

To answer your question.... let me think of guys who I feel possess the qualities I just mentioned AND have all star talent.

Kobe
Lebron
Wade
Rose
Dwight
Roy (when healthy)
CP3
Deron
Griffin
Dirk


These aren't in order but they are who I classify as leaders.. players who make their team better... players that have that "It" factor. I left Melo, Amare and Durant off because I don't feel they elevate the play of their teammates at all. I don't feel like they positively change the makeup of a team the way the guys on my list do. Blake Griffin has gotten almost the entire Clippers team... working out with coaches and scrimmaging since May 1st. That level of dedication has never been shown by the Clippers.

You know how they say a team takes on the identity of their superstar player? It's more evident with Blake than any other player in the game. I mean not only did a couple of his teammates have breakout years and he revived Baron... but off the court and in the locker room.. and during the offseason he's changed the ENTIRE dynamic of this franchise. A rookie isn't supposed to be the one leading guys back into the gym. Which is why if Blake isn't a superstar now.. he's close to being one.

For him to return the Clippers of all teams back into respectability... and to turn the team around from the ground up like he's started to do.. is something I never could have imagined. It takes a SUPERSTAR to turn around a team like the Clippers and Blake's well on his way.

Clippersfan86
06-25-2011, 04:39 PM
BTW Swash. I'm not saying Blake HAS turned the team around yet. I'm saying the fact that he's got all the guys working harder than they every have. He's got teammates saying this is the hardest working team ever... I mean the impact Blake is having is absolutely superstar level and immense. I believe next season the Clippers early, hard work will pay huge dividends thanks to Blake Griffin.

Swashcuff
06-25-2011, 04:47 PM
Very good question because obviously how we define a Superstar may differ. I think a player can be better than another and the worse one be a superstar. I already explained what a superstar is in my opinion vaguely. Players with that "It" factor.. and Griffin is one of them. The intangibles like clutch, leadership, work ethic, hustle.... can make a guy like Griffin who isn't a top 10 player yet.. a superstar IN MY OPINION.

To answer your question.... let me think of guys who I feel possess the qualities I just mentioned AND have all star talent.

Kobe
Lebron
Wade
Rose
Dwight
Roy (when healthy)
CP3
Deron
Griffin
Dirk


These aren't in order but they are who I classify as leaders.. players who make their team better... players that have that "It" factor. I left Melo, Amare and Durant off because I don't feel they elevate the play of their teammates at all. I don't feel like they positively change the makeup of a team the way the guys on my list do. Blake Griffin has gotten almost the entire Clippers team... working out with coaches and scrimmaging since May 1st. That level of dedication has never been shown by the Clippers.

You know how they say a team takes on the identity of their superstar player? It's more evident with Blake than any other player in the game. I mean not only did a couple of his teammates have breakout years and he revived Baron... but off the court and in the locker room.. and during the offseason he's changed the ENTIRE dynamic of this franchise. A rookie isn't supposed to be the one leading guys back into the gym. Which is why if Blake isn't a superstar now.. he's close to being one.

For him to return the Clippers of all teams back into respectability... and to turn the team around from the ground up like he's started to do.. is something I never could have imagined. It takes a SUPERSTAR to turn around a team like the Clippers and Blake's well on his way.

I must say I disagree with a lot of what you've said here. I mean you opinion leaves A LOT to be desired. I know everyone's vary but every time I make a statement about a player and use it as my basis for evaluating them I try to look at it from a historical POV and see if this holds true across the board in all the areas in which it.

See by your basis I can surely pick and choose from a ton of superstar throughout league history to doesn't hold up to you judgement because they didn't elevate the play of those around them (something which Kevin Durant has UNDOUTBELY done) and I can pick a bunch of borderline stars who by their play elevated the play of the others on their team.

By your basis, Kevin Durant better fits the mold that Blake. He has shown the ability to do all that and then some.

Bro truth be told you are biased in your opinion which is why you think of Blake so highly and in the case of others not so much.

Swashcuff
06-25-2011, 04:48 PM
BTW Swash. I'm not saying Blake HAS turned the team around yet. I'm saying the fact that he's got all the guys working harder than they every have. He's got teammates saying this is the hardest working team ever... I mean the impact Blake is having is absolutely superstar level and immense. I believe next season the Clippers early, hard work will pay huge dividends thanks to Blake Griffin.

I don't think you did, I have read your reasoning on more than one occasion, I think I have an understanding of your POV.

Clippersfan86
06-25-2011, 05:02 PM
Durant flat out disappeared in some pretty key games in the playoffs. He didn't demand the ball. When his shot isn't falling.. what does he do to make teammates better? Be honest Cuff because I know you're a legit basketball guy. What I see in Durant is a player that isn't exactly a high IQ player. When the defense does occasionally send a double.. he doesn't go into a playmaker mode the way other stars and Blake do. He will still force up a contested jumper. How often does Durant take over games in ANY other way besides his scoring? I can't remember a single game in his 4 year career where when his shot wasn't falling.. he dominated with passing/playmaking, rebounding or defense.

Clippersfan86
06-25-2011, 05:02 PM
I don't think you did, I have read your reasoning on more than one occasion, I think I have an understanding of your POV.

That I'm a homer and don't know ***** about basketball? Lol :eyebrow:

John Walls Era
06-25-2011, 05:07 PM
Griffin is a superstar (or will be). I think the past year I was a bit too hard on him, but that was because I had great expectations.

Clippersfan86
06-25-2011, 05:17 PM
Btw... If I was that much of a homer Swash.. I wouldn't admit Love is a more complete player right now. I just feel like Blake's intangibles... and the fact that he draws constant double teams.. AND makes the Clippers must see TV and popular... all of that combined make him a superstar.. or at least a borderline one.

mttwlsn16
06-25-2011, 05:19 PM
They are both stars.

Griffin will eventually become a superstar soon.

Love, in my opinion, will be a consistent all-star. He'll never reach superstardom but will be a great #2.

perfectly said...shocked i agree w a lakers fan

J-Relo
06-25-2011, 05:44 PM
Stars.

Swashcuff
06-25-2011, 06:27 PM
Durant flat out disappeared in some pretty key games in the playoffs. He didn't demand the ball. When his shot isn't falling.. what does he do to make teammates better? Be honest Cuff because I know you're a legit basketball guy. What I see in Durant is a player that isn't exactly a high IQ player. When the defense does occasionally send a double.. he doesn't go into a playmaker mode the way other stars and Blake do. He will still force up a contested jumper. How often does Durant take over games in ANY other way besides his scoring? I can't remember a single game in his 4 year career where when his shot wasn't falling.. he dominated with passing/playmaking, rebounding or defense.

Wow that sounds a helluva lot like LeBron James.

When Kevin Durant's shot isn't falling you know what happens, he makes the game easier for his teammates. The fact that he's constantly moving on the basketball floor makes it MUCH harder for opposing teams to settle themselves on D thus opening lanes and open shots for his supporting players. This is something that goes unnoticed a lot of the time with players such as Durant when gauging their worth in a team setting.

You can't remember a game where Durant wasn't impactful outside of his shot taking?

Kevin Durant was among the better rebounding SFs in the NBA last season and was even better the year before despite playing a great deal of his time at the SG. He actually has a great IQ and is extremely assertive.

This "playmaker mode" you speak of, could you tell me exactly what you mean. Being able to pass out of the double team effectively doesn't mean you are a playmaker. Durant does a good job of passing out of the double team, matter of a fact it is an aspect of his game which was greatly improved over the past season.

You think because Durant is great in one aspect of the game and not others mean he isn't a superstar? You do know that that is what scorers do. Before LeBron James, Larry Bird and Scottie Pippen (very debatable) was the only superstar SF with such great playmaking ability. These are all players who affect the game in many different ways. The fact that Durant doesn't fit this mold however doesn't mean that he isn't a great player.

The ability to play within ones skill is one of the most key aspects of being a great player. Kevin Durant has learned that and has become a great offensive player because of it. He does indeed have a high IQ and possesses great intangible worth.

Tell me something who was more one dimensional than Kiki Vandeweghe, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, David Thompson, George Gervin and Adrian Dantley but guess what at there very offensive peak they were all considered borderline superstars in the NBA. IMO Kevin Durant has what it takes to be better scorer than them all at their peak.

Swashcuff
06-25-2011, 06:36 PM
Btw... If I was that much of a homer Swash.. I wouldn't admit Love is a more complete player right now. I just feel like Blake's intangibles... and the fact that he draws constant double teams.. AND makes the Clippers must see TV and popular... all of that combined make him a superstar.. or at least a borderline one.

After our first discussion on this topic do you remember I took back my opinion of you being a homer, HOWEVER we all have a bit of bias in us. We see things in our player an overstate it while seeing the same thing in another player and underestimate it.

I mean look at it like this. I like big boobs. You may like big butts. We're hanging out and I see a chic with big boobs but no but my eyes draw to her and I'm like wow, you however not really interested (even though you think she's hot regardless kinda like you can admit Love is the better overall player) because you have your bias, and the same will happen when I see a girl with big butt.

You know who most times would be the solid voice of rational reasoning for us both someone who isn't really into big butts/boobs like we are. That's what knowledgeable fans of other teams who really have no stake in a player will be able to see across the board. I am not saying that I am without my biases but I think for players whom I am neutral to but still have a good understanding and appreciation for I may rate them in a way that someone who roots for them may not.

I may tell you this and that about Jrue Holiday because he's one of my more favourite players on my favourite team but I may be overvaluing him when comparing him to other players, it would take a guy like you to bring me back down to earth.

I don't think you are a homer, I think that because of your allegiance to your franchise and by obvious extension their players (especially their best players) you'll be a bit swayed in some aspects of your opinion. It's only natural. Some are more swayed than others.

Lokthug101
06-25-2011, 07:10 PM
Well he's not a superstar and won't be ur talking about 3 or 4 percent of the league are superstars no way in hell unless he takes his team to the playoffs single handily that simple
Superstars play after te season is done thank you

tcav701
06-25-2011, 07:17 PM
Superstardom is not always about just talent. Blake was force fed to us as a star last year and won the dunk contest before the season started. Once the officials give him the calls, his PPG and FG% will rise to solidify the leagues desicion to make Blake the next superstar.

And this is no knock on Blake hes going to be a very good player. I'm just saying superstardom is achieved by both talent and the NBA's endorsement.

dodie53
06-25-2011, 11:35 PM
stars.

ragee
06-26-2011, 12:06 AM
Durant flat out disappeared in some pretty key games in the playoffs. He didn't demand the ball. When his shot isn't falling.. what does he do to make teammates better? Be honest Cuff because I know you're a legit basketball guy. What I see in Durant is a player that isn't exactly a high IQ player. When the defense does occasionally send a double.. he doesn't go into a playmaker mode the way other stars and Blake do. He will still force up a contested jumper. How often does Durant take over games in ANY other way besides his scoring? I can't remember a single game in his 4 year career where when his shot wasn't falling.. he dominated with passing/playmaking, rebounding or defense.

1. One could argue that the reason for that was Westbrook

2. He defended Kobe Bryant well in the 4th in the playoffs last year... His passing skills is one of his weaknesses... That does not mean he has a low basketball IQ? I don't think so...

Sorry to butt in... I just had to defend Durant... Him, Griffin and D-Will are my favorite payers outside of my teams... :D

Clippersfan86
06-26-2011, 12:39 AM
After our first discussion on this topic do you remember I took back my opinion of you being a homer, HOWEVER we all have a bit of bias in us. We see things in our player an overstate it while seeing the same thing in another player and underestimate it.

I mean look at it like this. I like big boobs. You may like big butts. We're hanging out and I see a chic with big boobs but no but my eyes draw to her and I'm like wow, you however not really interested (even though you think she's hot regardless kinda like you can admit Love is the better overall player) because you have your bias, and the same will happen when I see a girl with big butt.

You know who most times would be the solid voice of rational reasoning for us both someone who isn't really into big butts/boobs like we are. That's what knowledgeable fans of other teams who really have no stake in a player will be able to see across the board. I am not saying that I am without my biases but I think for players whom I am neutral to but still have a good understanding and appreciation for I may rate them in a way that someone who roots for them may not.

I may tell you this and that about Jrue Holiday because he's one of my more favourite players on my favourite team but I may be overvaluing him when comparing him to other players, it would take a guy like you to bring me back down to earth.

I don't think you are a homer, I think that because of your allegiance to your franchise and by obvious extension their players (especially their best players) you'll be a bit swayed in some aspects of your opinion. It's only natural. Some are more swayed than others.

Great, logical post like always man. I will admit I obviously have bias on this matter so it's probably not ideal for me to compare players like this when one is my teams star player. If we say both players are not superstars would you agree though about my point on Griffin having more intangibles such as leadership, making teammates better and dealing with WAY more double and triple teams? Griffin has already taken over as the leader of this franchise on and off the court.

Knicks21
06-26-2011, 12:53 AM
Because he had a rookie season where he avgd about 22.5 and 12? Its ridiculous to see people that don't think Griffin can lead a team when hes only played 1 year.

To be fair it should be a sophomore season, one of few things i agree with Sir Charles. Griffin is currently borderline Superstar.

John Walls Era
06-26-2011, 01:03 AM
To be fair it should be a sophomore season, one of few things i agree with Sir Charles. Griffin is currently borderline Superstar.

Hit many clutch shots.

Cal827
06-26-2011, 01:09 AM
Think that Blake will be a superstar/Franchise PF like Duncan, or KG.

I think that Love will be a star PF, but can't be the number 1 option on a team in order for them to play very well. Good number 2 option on a team. Kinda like, Randolph, or Bosh.

Clippersfan86
06-26-2011, 01:13 AM
Swash my comment about Durant's playmaking has nothing to do with double teams and passing out of them. Why? Because Durant rarely sees a double. It has to do with the fact that his game is predictable. I can tell every single time when he's going to shoot because he gets a little lower and comes off a screen and 99 percent of the time he's going to shoot it no matter what the defense throws at him.

Blake Griffin isn't averaging 4 assists from passing out of doubles. He grabs a rebound.. runs the court and will make a play. His court vision for a PF is incredible, especially for a rookie. I feel safer with him running plays than anyone else on our team because he just sees things most players don't. Even Coach Nick in his basketball video breakdowns talked about how Griffin will ALWAYS find the right player and sees openings most players don't in the defense. I love watching him throw lobs to DJ... or fire a bounce pass from halfcourt to a teammate for an open 3.

This may seem like it's not important but his unselfishness, court vision and passing accuracy are amazing for a frontcourt player. I think Iggy may have passed him up... but in about January Blake was 2nd behind Lebron James for frontcourt players with most 7+ assist games. How many times did Durant border on a triple double or even get them like Blake did?

What's more is we are comparing a 4th year vet to a rookie. It's scary to imagine how good Blake can be in 3 more seasons. For the last 2 months of the season the guy averaged like 5 assists a game. That's KG, Chris Webber in their prime assist numbers for a big.

flea
06-26-2011, 01:14 AM
One of them has to play better defense if they want to be called superstars. Putting Griffin in the conversation with Duncan and KG is ridiculous at this point. Both of them were excellent post defenders, capable of carrying a team by themselves (especially Duncan). They are both budding stars, but superstars win titles. The only title-less superstar in today's game is Lebron. They'd have to be extremely impressive to become superstars with a title (like Lebron has).

iliketurtles24
06-26-2011, 03:21 AM
stars only