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Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 10:54 PM
I keep hearing how this guy is a one of a kind, a superstar, but his three years in the league his teams have a combined 56 wins. Now If you are truly one of a kind or a superstar, dont you think you should have more impact than that?

Swashcuff
06-20-2011, 11:01 PM
I don't think anyone would say Kevin Love is a superstar.

Sadds The Gr8
06-20-2011, 11:02 PM
he's not a #1 player...he's just the best player on a crap team. he's still an amazing talent though and has a great array of skills.

koreancabbage
06-20-2011, 11:03 PM
great role player on a good team. i would not let him be the first or second option.

jp611
06-20-2011, 11:04 PM
It's a watered down league I think :rolleyes:

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:04 PM
he's not a #1 player...he's just the best player on a crap team. he's still an amazing talent though and has a great array of skills.

Amazing talent is an absolute stretch, great skills is a stretch. Im sorry but if you are that amazing and have such a great array of skills, you should lead your team to more than 56 wins in 3 years.

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:05 PM
It's a watered down league I think :rolleyes:
Sarcasm fail

Yanks All Day
06-20-2011, 11:07 PM
He's not a superstar. He's a fantastic player and an all star, but he's not a number 1 type of player to build a team around. Kevin Love is arguably the best rebounder in basketball (2nd behind D12 IMO) and would make a great complimentary player to a star. Also take into account he has nothing to work with in Minny. Give stars like Wade, LBJ, Kobe, Durant the opportunity to play with Kevin Love and I'm sure they would salivate over the idea of having him down low.

Sadds The Gr8
06-20-2011, 11:07 PM
Amazing talent is an absolute stretch, great skills is a stretch. Im sorry but if you are that amazing and have such a great array of skills, you should lead your team to more than 56 wins in 3 years.

he averaged 15 ****in rebounds and shot 41% from 3. he had amazing shooting percentages as well. he's a great passer as well and has amazing basketball IQ. how can u say he isn't an amazing talent? he had a 30 and 30 game for god sake...how can u trash him? his team sucked ***.

Avenged
06-20-2011, 11:07 PM
The guy is still very young, give him some time. He's developing (or improving) nicely and is already an all-star. Not sure what more someone can expect out of him. He's not a top 10 player but if he continues to improve, and especially if his team racks up more wins (which will happen in due time), the guy will probably become a bit overvalued as it happens to all great players.

jp611
06-20-2011, 11:10 PM
He needs Beasley off the team

Swashcuff
06-20-2011, 11:10 PM
The guy is still very young, give him some time. He's developing (or improving) nicely and is already an all-star. Not sure what more someone can expect out of him. He's not a top 10 player but if he continues to improve, and especially if his team racks up more wins (which will happen in due time), the guy will probably become a bit overvalued as it happens to all great players.

Exactly he's just finished his 3rd year in the league its not as if he has peaked already.

Who is to say he won't develop into one of the best players in the game. As of right now however he's not.

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:12 PM
he averaged 15 ****in rebounds and shot 41% from 3. he's a great passer as well and has amazing basketball IQ. how can u say he isn't an amazing talent? he had a 30 and 30 game for god sake...how can u trash him? his team sucked ***.

15 rebounds on a team where nobody else averaged more than 5, clearly nobody else rebounds so he would get those by default since he is their only rebounder. He is a good passer, great passer is more stretching. Amazing basketball iq? Please stop overrating, he is good but amazing is all time great stuff. Again posting inflated stats that has no impact on his team winning, which is my point. A lot of great players played on bad teams and led them to more than 17 wins, at least 30. The excuses for this guy is hilarious.

Hawkeye15
06-20-2011, 11:14 PM
At 22, he is a great player. Give him some help, and a roster, and he can help lead a team to success. Any team would die to have him. Is he a superstar? no. Is he a bright young star that we will watch grow over the next 10 years? yep

Hawkeye15
06-20-2011, 11:14 PM
I won't even bother getting in depth in this thread. No point.

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:15 PM
Exactly he's just finished his 3rd year in the league its not as if he has peaked already.

Who is to say he won't develop into one of the best players in the game. As of right now however he's not.


Who's to say he will develop and wont regress? More players regress than take it to the next level, so using the young excuse doesn't work.

Swashcuff
06-20-2011, 11:15 PM
15 rebounds on a team where nobody else averaged more than 5, clearly nobody else rebounds so he would get those by default since he is their only rebounder. He is a good passer, great passer is more stretching. Amazing basketball iq? Please stop overrating, he is good but amazing is all time great stuff. Again posting inflated stats that has no impact on his team winning, which is my point. A lot of great players played on bad teams and led them to more than 17 wins, at least 30. The excuses for this guy is hilarious.

Tell me something.

Did you watch the Timberwolves play more than 5 times last season?

Avenged
06-20-2011, 11:15 PM
Exactly he's just finished his 3rd year in the league its not as if he has peaked already.

Who is to say he won't develop into one of the best players in the game. As of right now however he's not.

The guy put up 20 points and 15 rebounds per game, I call that getting it done for a 22 year old 3rd year player. He shoots at a fair 47% from the field and 85% from the charity stripe.

His player efficiency rating is solid at 24.3 and his true shooting percentage is really good. This guy is producing at a high level with plenty of room for improvement. If he was on a team like the Bulls, Lakers, Celtics, Heat etc... this discussion would not be happening.

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:17 PM
At 22, he is a great player. Give him some help, and a roster, and he can help lead a team to success. Any team would die to have him. Is he a superstar? no. Is he a bright young star that we will watch grow over the next 10 years? yep

No he isn't a great player, great players elevate their teams, he doesn't. People throw that word around too loosely just because someone put's up great numbers for a bad team. Plus your last sentence, how do you know he will grow? Wishful thinking, you have no idea, we are talking about now. He has scoring help, he has darko who can block shots, but we know kevin love is atrocious on defense so he needs to help himself in that regard.

Swashcuff
06-20-2011, 11:18 PM
Who's to say he will develop and wont regress? More players regress than take it to the next level, so using the young excuse doesn't work.

Young excuse?

What have you seen from Kevin Love to tell you that he's going to regress. He has improved greatly in every season he's been in the NBA. He was the MIP for crying out loud. He had that award on his mantle after the first 2 months of the season and only kept improving.

You say we are making excuses you seem as though you just don't like Love.

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:18 PM
Tell me something.

Did you watch the Timberwolves play more than 5 times last season?

Yep

Swashcuff
06-20-2011, 11:19 PM
No he isn't a great player, great players elevate their teams, he doesn't. People throw that word around too loosely just because someone put's up great numbers for a bad team. Plus your last sentence, how do you know he will grow? Wishful thinking, you have no idea, we are talking about now. He has scoring help, he has darko who can block shots, but we know kevin love is atrocious on defense so he needs to help himself in that regard.

Is Dwyane Wade a great player?

Hawkeye15
06-20-2011, 11:19 PM
Who's to say he will develop and wont regress? More players regress than take it to the next level, so using the young excuse doesn't work.

High school player of the year

Pac 10 player/freshman of the year

4th best rebound rate for a rookie in NBA history

1st player to ever go for 20/15/40/80

Love is the ultimate example of prejudice. White. Can't jump. But he still kicks the **** out of pretty much anyone he plays against.

There will be no regression. Quote me

Swashcuff
06-20-2011, 11:20 PM
Yep

So how on God's green earth could you blame Kevin Love for his TEAMS poor performance? Kevin Love did all he can to help his team win but he is only one man.

Hawkeye15
06-20-2011, 11:20 PM
Yep

I don't believe you

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:21 PM
Young excuse?

What have you seen from Kevin Love to tell you that he's going to regress. He has improved greatly in every season he's been in the NBA. He was the MIP for crying out loud. He had that award on his mantle after the first 2 months of the season and only kept improving.

You say we are making excuses you seem as though you just don't like Love.

Im not saying he will regress, but it is more likely looking at nba history. I dont know if he will or if he will improve, nobody does but you guys are acting like it is a fact he will get better just because he is young. People can peak you know? He isn't a player of impact, throw out any stats you want.

Swashcuff
06-20-2011, 11:21 PM
High school player of the year

Pac 10 player/freshman of the year

4th best rebound rate for a rookie in NBA history

1st player to ever go for 20/15/40/80

Love is the ultimate example of prejudice. White. Can't jump. But he still kicks the **** out of pretty much anyone he plays against.

There will be no regression. Quote me

There has been NO evidence for someone to even think Love could possibly regress the notion that his is going to is utterly ridiculous.

Wisdom Listens
06-20-2011, 11:21 PM
I don't think anyone would say Kevin Love is a superstar.

That's a bingo. Still very good, though.

Swashcuff
06-20-2011, 11:22 PM
I don't believe you

Neither do I.

Hawkeye15
06-20-2011, 11:22 PM
No he isn't a great player, great players elevate their teams, he doesn't. People throw that word around too loosely just because someone put's up great numbers for a bad team. Plus your last sentence, how do you know he will grow? Wishful thinking, you have no idea, we are talking about now. He has scoring help, he has darko who can block shots, but we know kevin love is atrocious on defense so he needs to help himself in that regard.

when your second best player is Luke Ridnour, you are in trouble.

You never watch the Wolves. Stop pretending. Darko? hahahahaha. Please.

Love is a better defender than most of you give him credit for, but I can only prove it, so I apologize for not going with the general opinion, which is what you are doing

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:25 PM
Is Dwyane Wade a great player?

You mean finals mvp dwyane wade? dwade who only has one losing season when the team tanked and shut him down due to injury? The same wade whose second leading scorer in 2009-10 was michael beasley whom he led to the playoffs with a 47-35 record, while kevin love with michael beasley as his second leading scorer led his team to a mighty 17 win season.

Rego247
06-20-2011, 11:26 PM
he averaged 15 ****in rebounds and shot 41% from 3. he had amazing shooting percentages as well. he's a great passer as well and has amazing basketball IQ. how can u say he isn't an amazing talent? he had a 30 and 30 game for god sake...how can u trash him? his team sucked ***.

seriously this.

Swashcuff
06-20-2011, 11:26 PM
No he isn't a great player, great players elevate their teams, he doesn't. People throw that word around too loosely just because someone put's up great numbers for a bad team. Plus your last sentence, how do you know he will grow? Wishful thinking, you have no idea, we are talking about now. He has scoring help, he has darko who can block shots, but we know kevin love is atrocious on defense so he needs to help himself in that regard.

So basically what you are saying is that you are rooting for Love to fail? Is that it?

I can't understand how saying a player is going to improve is wishful thinking. Anyone who has ever played or follow a sport understands the common sense behind that.

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:27 PM
when your second best player is Luke Ridnour, you are in trouble.

You never watch the Wolves. Stop pretending. Darko? hahahahaha. Please.

Love is a better defender than most of you give him credit for, but I can only prove it, so I apologize for not going with the general opinion, which is what you are doing

Luke ridnour and michael beasley, plus darko is a great shotblocker. Kevin love is a terrible defender, i've seen it too many times dude stop trying to go against the grain. Funny how beasley was wade's second best player and he led them to the playoffs.

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:29 PM
So basically what you are saying is that you are rooting for Love to fail? Is that it?

I can't understand how saying a player is going to improve is wishful thinking. Anyone who has ever played or follow a sport understands the common sense behind that.

Lol im rooting for him to fail? No i truly dont care, i just dont get the mislabeling of him. He isn't a great, he is very good. Saying he will improve like it is a fact is ridiculous. You have no idea if he will, it is your hope that he will. Can he improve? Yes. Will he improve? who knows, certainly not you guys unless you have a time machine and can go into the future.

Wisdom Listens
06-20-2011, 11:30 PM
Amazing talent is an absolute stretch, great skills is a stretch. Im sorry but if you are that amazing and have such a great array of skills, you should lead your team to more than 56 wins in 3 years.

He wasn't even a full time starter until more than half way through the 09-10 season, after Jefferson got hurt. That and how can you judge a players quality based on the amount of wins his team has? Last I checked it's a team sport. Didn't the Grizzlies get like 20 wins some 4 or 5 years while Gasol was playing there?

Avenged
06-20-2011, 11:30 PM
Luke ridnour and michael beasley, plus darko is a great shotblocker. Kevin love is a terrible defender, i've seen it too many times dude stop trying to go against the grain. Funny how beasley was wade's second best player and he led them to the playoffs.

That's where your problem lies. Love is no Wade, clearly.

Wade is a superstar, Love is not.

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:31 PM
He wasn't even a full time starter until more than half way through the 09-10 season, after Jefferson got hurt. That and how can you judge a players quality based on the amount of wins is team has? Last I checked it's a team sport. Didn't the Grizzlies get like 20 wins some 4 or 5 years while Gasol was playing there?

They won more than any kevin love led team, and gasol was making the playoffs at love's age so no excuses.

Rego247
06-20-2011, 11:31 PM
You mean finals mvp dwyane wade? dwade who only has one losing season when the team tanked and shut him down due to injury? The same wade whose second leading scorer in 2009-10 was michael beasley whom he led to the playoffs with a 47-35 record, while kevin love with michael beasley as his second leading scorer led his team to a mighty 17 win season.

well there is a difference. wade is a superstar, a next level talent. love is not.

however, that does not mean he isn't talented. if u believe his stats are inflated because he is on a bad team, then thats your opinion.

but a lot of teams would kill to have a guy like love on their team.

Hawkeye15
06-20-2011, 11:32 PM
Luke ridnour and michael beasley, plus darko is a great shotblocker. Kevin love is a terrible defender, i've seen it too many times dude stop trying to go against the grain. Funny how beasley was wade's second best player and he led them to the playoffs.

you NEVER watch the Wolves, nor do you understand stats. Lets get that out of the way going forward.

Prove to me, before I waste my time with a huge post, how Love had anything remotely supportive for his roster. And please explain in detail. I really don't want to waste my time

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:32 PM
That's where your problem lies. Love is no Wade, clearly.

Wade is a superstar, Love is not.

I know love isnt a superstar and i didnt bring up wade, some guy quoted me trying to compare them i guess, i dont know.

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:33 PM
you NEVER watch the Wolves, nor do you understand stats. Lets get that out of the way going forward.


Irrelevant anger

Wisdom Listens
06-20-2011, 11:33 PM
He needs Beasley off the team

Maybe, but Beasley's missed shots help pad his rebounding stats.

Swashcuff
06-20-2011, 11:34 PM
You mean finals mvp dwyane wade? dwade who only has one losing season when the team tanked and shut him down due to injury? The same wade whose second leading scorer in 2009-10 was michael beasley whom he led to the playoffs with a 47-35 record, while kevin love with michael beasley as his second leading scorer led his team to a mighty 17 win season.

So its fine to use excuses for Wade but when someone reasons and brings up common sense for you you don't recognise that? Wade had a better supporting cast in all his seasons as a member of the Miami Heat than Love has ever had with the Wolves.

Dwyane Wade played 51 games that season leading his Heat to a 10-51 record in games in which he played good enough for a .196 winning %.

Last season Kevin Love played in 73 games leading his Wolves to a 17-56 record. Good enough for a .232 winning %.

Take into consideration that Wade's team won 44 games the season before and was expected to repeat that. Love's Wolves was predicted by most to be the worst team in the league.

Love also played in a much harder much better from top to bottom Western Conference.

FYI the Heat weren't "tanking" when Wade was playing.

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:35 PM
well there is a difference. wade is a superstar, a next level talent. love is not.

however, that does not mean he isn't talented. if u believe his stats are inflated because he is on a bad team, then thats your opinion.

but a lot of teams would kill to have a guy like love on their team.

I didn't bring up wade, swashcuff or whatever did. I think love is talented, not elite, not amazing, but he is a good talent and hard working. I wouldn't say they would kill to have love, but they would like to have him.

kenzo400
06-20-2011, 11:35 PM
well there is a difference. wade is a superstar, a next level talent. love is not.

however, that does not mean he isn't talented. if u believe his stats are inflated because he is on a bad team, then thats your opinion.

but a lot of teams would kill to have a guy like love on their team.

Wait a minute... Rego, did you just umm make a serious post? :eyebrow:

Hawkeye15
06-20-2011, 11:35 PM
Irrelevant anger

anger? no. I never get angry here, hence why I am a super moderator, this is simply a sports site to talk/debate/read. I simply can tell you don't watch the Wolves outside of them playing whatever team it is you follow, and I can also garner that you don't understand statistics.

Now, you can stop side stepping the debate, or move on bro.

Simple, no?

Swashcuff
06-20-2011, 11:35 PM
Irrelevant anger

Its not anger its the truth.

koreancabbage
06-20-2011, 11:37 PM
The guy put up 20 points and 15 rebounds per game, I call that getting it done for a 22 year old 3rd year player. He shoots at a fair 47% from the field and 85% from the charity stripe.

His player efficiency rating is solid at 24.3 and his true shooting percentage is really good. This guy is producing at a high level with plenty of room for improvement. If he was on a team like the Bulls, Lakers, Celtics, Heat etc... this discussion would not be happening.

but he isn't. love the shooting %'s but come on. he's clearly the best player on the team and the team really really sucks. Beasely and Darkko, i don't even know how they got to 17 wins :confused:

love is a good player, not taking that away from him, but to say he's a better player than Gasol is RIDICULOUS! Gasol is a go-to player whereas Love is asked to do the dirty work and shoot wide open jump shots. plus his defense is below average.

he's a very good starting role player, which is nothing wrong with that. but come on, he's not a franchise, one of a kind, player. PSD fandom at it best.

Sadds The Gr8
06-20-2011, 11:37 PM
Wait a minute... Rego, did you just umm make a serious post? :eyebrow:

lol

DR_1
06-20-2011, 11:38 PM
Love is a great player. He has less around him than LeBron did in Cleveland, and he's still growing. This question is a dumb one. Much rather have Love than an underachiever like Bargnani or someone like Nene.

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:39 PM
So its fine to use excuses for Wade but when someone reasons and brings up common sense for you you don't recognise that? Wade had a better supporting cast in all his seasons as a member of the Miami Heat than Love has ever had with the Wolves.

you mean the supporting cast of old jermaine oneal, too young to play dorrell wright, and michael beasley who kevin love also has?

Dwyane Wade played 51 games that season leading his Heat to a 10-51 record in games in which he played good enough for a .196 winning %.

Wade was injured that year, no excuse, it's a fact which is why they shut him down.

Last season Kevin Love played in 73 games leading his Wolves to a 17-56 record. Good enough for a .232 winning %.

Take into consideration that Wade's team won 44 games the season before and was expected to repeat that. Love's Wolves was predicted by most to be the worst team in the league.

Take into consideration the heat lost both of their centers

Love also played in a much harder much better from top to bottom Western Conference.
Like gasol did when he led his teams to the playoffs and more wins than love ever has, when the west was better then?


FYI the Heat weren't "tanking" when Wade was playing.

I see you clearly left out the heat losing shaq and alonzo, having to rely on a rookie joel anthony and earl barron at center lol.

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:40 PM
anger? no. I never get angry here, hence why I am a super moderator, this is simply a sports site to talk/debate/read. I simply can tell you don't watch the Wolves outside of them playing whatever team it is you follow, and I can also garner that you don't understand statistics.

Now, you can stop side stepping the debate, or move on bro.

Simple, no?
Now tell me what the debate is?

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:41 PM
Love is a great player. He has less around him than LeBron did in Cleveland, and he's still growing. This question is a dumb one. Much rather have Love than an underachiever like Bargnani or someone like Nene.

Comparing love to lebron, i dont remember lebron winning 17 games.

DwayneMVPwade
06-20-2011, 11:41 PM
Hes no superstar at least not yet. No way you can call him a superstar when he just led his team to the worst record in the NBA.

Hawkeye15
06-20-2011, 11:41 PM
Its been perfectly put early. Love is a great player, who will never be a #1 option, but would 10000000% be a huge part of a contending team as an efficient scorer, rebounder, passer (best outlet passer in 25 years), shooter, etc. Is he going to ever be a top 5 player? Eh, probably not. Will he be a top 10-15 player? Yes. For sure. I say that with no doubt in my mind.

Now, those who would like to discredit him for being on a 17 win team have no understanding of the roster he was surrounded by, and are simply using it as a blanket to fuel your argument. Nothing more. Luke Ridnour was the 2nd best player on the Wolves last year. Win games with him being your second best player...

Swashcuff
06-20-2011, 11:41 PM
but he isn't. love the shooting %'s but come on. he's clearly the best player on the team and the team really really sucks. Beasely and Darkko, i don't even know how they got to 17 wins :confused:

love is a good player, not taking that away from him, but to say he's a better player than Gasol is RIDICULOUS! Gasol is a go-to player whereas Love is asked to do the dirty work and shoot wide open jump shots. plus his defense is below average.

he's a very good starting role player, which is nothing wrong with that. but come on, he's not a franchise, one of a kind, player. PSD fandom at it best.

That's what makes his so amazing. He is the best garbage man in the history of the game. Imagine what he can do when he develops his offensive game, learn the game a bit more and has plays actually drawn up and called for him. Not to mention having a quality PG running the show.

He's not a one of a kind player? Tell me has their ever been a player in the history of the game to produce in the way in which Kevin Love did last season?

PSD fandom at its best? I don't know if you realise but Avenged is a Lakers fan. Shoudn't his "fandom" be for the player on his team and not Love. He appreciates a good player when he sees one. It isn't fandom.

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:42 PM
but he isn't. love the shooting %'s but come on. he's clearly the best player on the team and the team really really sucks. Beasely and Darkko, i don't even know how they got to 17 wins :confused:

love is a good player, not taking that away from him, but to say he's a better player than Gasol is RIDICULOUS! Gasol is a go-to player whereas Love is asked to do the dirty work and shoot wide open jump shots. plus his defense is below average.

he's a very good starting role player, which is nothing wrong with that. but come on, he's not a franchise, one of a kind, player. PSD fandom at it best.

Lol Exactly, it's nothing against the guy, he just isn't great or have that kind of impact.

Hawkeye15
06-20-2011, 11:42 PM
Now tell me what the debate is?

You are throwing the Wolves win total down my throat for your argument. Dig deeper...

D Roses Bulls
06-20-2011, 11:42 PM
I know hawkeye wants to close this thread so bad. its okay man, stick with it. everyone gets put down. no player is perfect.

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:44 PM
Its been perfectly put early. Love is a very good player, who will never be a #1 option,
fixed that for you

Avenged
06-20-2011, 11:44 PM
but he isn't. love the shooting %'s but come on. he's clearly the best player on the team and the team really really sucks. Beasely and Darkko, i don't even know how they got to 17 wins :confused:

love is a good player, not taking that away from him, but to say he's a better player than Gasol is RIDICULOUS! Gasol is a go-to player whereas Love is asked to do the dirty work and shoot wide open jump shots. plus his defense is below average.

he's a very good starting role player, which is nothing wrong with that. but come on, he's not a franchise, one of a kind, player. PSD fandom at it best.

I certainly didn't mean to make Love to be some elite player.. But the point is that he's very good for a 3rd year player who is only 22 years old.

I don't think he's better than Pau but you cannot fault Love for not having a supporting cast. He definitely isn't a "role player" though, the dude is an all-star.

And where are you getting that Love is asked to do the dirty work and shoot wide open jump shots? He is the Wolves best player, he is asked to carry to team night in and night out with a very limited roster. He basically does it all for them and that does include "the dirty work" but it is not because he's asked to.

Sometimes I feel he is being overrated but other times he is very underrated just because he plays for a team that hasn't been relevant for years.

Rego247
06-20-2011, 11:45 PM
Wait a minute... Rego, did you just umm make a serious post? :eyebrow:

chyeaaa boii.

i gotsta keep it realz once in a while. naw meanz.

Swashcuff
06-20-2011, 11:46 PM
I see you clearly left out the heat losing shaq and alonzo, having to rely on a rookie joel anthony and earl barron at center lol.

I see you clearly have no argument because even though the Heat were weakened at the C they were still a better more established team than the Wolves. They actually had a team that could play defense. They also played in the EASTERN CONFERENCE!!!

How did the Heat "lose" Shaq though? They traded him. They didn't lose him.

Hawkeye15
06-20-2011, 11:46 PM
I know hawkeye wants to close this thread so bad. its okay man, stick with it. everyone gets put down. no player is perfect.

not used to your avatar/sig haha.

Why would I close it? I have no problem with Love getting criticism. We won 17 games. But we also had a terrible roster. Without Love we would have crushed the 9 win season Philly had all those years ago

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:46 PM
That's what makes his so amazing. He is the best garbage man in the history of the game.

Oh lord at the stannery. Im starting to think you write his letters saying you have your girlfriend tied up in a trunk.

D Roses Bulls
06-20-2011, 11:47 PM
not used to your avatar/sig haha.

Why would I close it? I have no problem with Love getting criticism. We won 17 games. But we also had a terrible roster. Without Love we would have crushed the 9 win season Philly had all those years ago

oh I was just playing. and yeah my sig and avatar, it was time for a change, lol

DR_1
06-20-2011, 11:48 PM
Comparing love to lebron, i dont remember lebron winning 17 games.

I wasn't comparing their abilities, just their supporting casts.

Hawkeye15
06-20-2011, 11:48 PM
fixed that for you

Thanks man. I really needed another side step from you.

If you don't wish to engage me directly, then move on.

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:48 PM
I see you clearly have no argument because even though the Heat were weakened at the C they were still a better more established team than the Wolves. They actually had a team that could play defense. They also played in the EASTERN CONFERENCE!!!

How did the Heat "lose" Shaq though? They traded him. They didn't lose him.

Shaq was injured and didn't bother giving effort, which is why his departure from miami was publicized in a bad way. They weren't an established team when they lost many of their top players dude. You do know the east won the championship that year right?

Swashcuff
06-20-2011, 11:48 PM
Oh lord at the stannery. Im starting to think you write his letters saying you have your girlfriend tied up in a trunk.

name one better player that was able to produce in the way Love has without a SINGLE play being ran for him and being no more than a freelancer.

Please name me 1.

HeatFan2011
06-20-2011, 11:49 PM
Is Dwyane Wade a great player?

the multiple ALL NBA team player? yes

topdog
06-20-2011, 11:50 PM
Most people have not said the words "superstar" or "number 1 option." Love is extremely valuable as an up-and-coming PF and a good building block for a team. Which high-scoring sg leader wouldn't want Love to rebound for him and spread the defense?

Swashcuff
06-20-2011, 11:50 PM
Shaq was injured and didn't bother giving effort, which is why his departure from miami was publicized in a bad way. They weren't an established team when they lost many of their top players dude. You do know the east won the championship that year right?

So what if the East won the championship? Did the 8th place team finish with a record better than the 5th place team in the West? Did they have better teams top to bottom that the West? You do realize the West one the championship this year right?

Jewelz0376
06-20-2011, 11:50 PM
:laugh:

This thread cracks me up....

I'll admit I have bashed Love quite a few times on here for his D....and I feel like he's overrated by some people on here....but he's still a good player i'll give him that..He'll def lead the league in boards for years to come

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:50 PM
not used to your avatar/sig haha.

Why would I close it? I have no problem with Love getting criticism. We won 17 games. But we also had a terrible roster. Without Love we would have crushed the 9 win season Philly had all those years ago

Without love and let's say, al jefferson you would have won the same amount of games, proven by the 22 wins the mighty big al led the twolves to in 2007-08, in a tougher western conference.

Darrell Russell
06-20-2011, 11:53 PM
:laugh:

This thread cracks me up....

I'll admit I have bashed Love quite a few times on here for his D....and I feel like he's overrated by some people on here....but he's still a good player i'll give him that..He'll def lead the league in boards for years to come

he is a GOOD player, exactly.

Wisdom Listens
06-20-2011, 11:55 PM
They won more than any kevin love led team, and gasol was making the playoffs at love's age so no excuses.

He's only had 1 full season as team leader and that team had one of the weakest rosters in recent memory, lol.

EaglePride615
06-20-2011, 11:56 PM
hes a great rebounder. offense rebounder at with getting oreb's youre going to score on put backs. hes no number 1 option. mike beasley is the number 1 there id say. or at least he should be

PrettyBoyJ
06-20-2011, 11:59 PM
Guy is just in his 3rd year and his first year starting full-time.. and plays in the west against other dominant bigs and held his own.. the ceiling isnt low for this guy his potential is very high..

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 12:01 AM
He's only had 1 full season as team leader and that team had one of the weakest rosters in recent memory, lol.

The facts are the facts. Gasol's rookie season he led his team to more wins.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 12:01 AM
Guy is just in his 3rd year and his first year starting full-time.. and plays in the west against other dominant bigs and held his own.. the ceiling isnt low for this guy his potential is very high..

Dominant bigs? Like whom?

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 12:02 AM
Dominant bigs? Like whom?

I asked you a question. Name one better garbage man in league history.

koreancabbage
06-21-2011, 12:03 AM
I certainly didn't mean to make Love to be some elite player.. But the point is that he's very good for a 3rd year player who is only 22 years old.

I don't think he's better than Pau but you cannot fault Love for not having a supporting cast. He definitely isn't a "role player" though, the dude is an all-star.

And where are you getting that Love is asked to do the dirty work and shoot wide open jump shots? He is the Wolves best player, he is asked to carry to team night in and night out with a very limited roster. He basically does it all for them and that does include "the dirty work" but it is not because he's asked to.

Sometimes I feel he is being overrated but other times he is very underrated just because he plays for a team that hasn't been relevant for years.

and so was Jamaal Magloire :rolleyes:

look i know he's a good player in his 3rd year in the NBA but for someone to say he's one of a kind, sure he put up a unholy game of great numbers, but that can happen to the least likely player, who could end up doing something ending up in the record books. who expected Love to do something like that... noone.

he carries his team cuz the rest of the team SUCKS. i'm just gonna say he's the perfect role player waiting for the star to come to Minny.

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 12:06 AM
hes a great rebounder. offense rebounder at with getting oreb's youre going to score on put backs. hes no number 1 option. mike beasley is the number 1 there id say. or at least he should be

If Beasley is your #1 you have problems. That said, he actually was for most of the 2010-2011 season. Regardless, this whole thread is predicated on the notion that Love is seen as a legit #1 option for a contender or a superstar, he is neither, and I have never seen anyone say any different before this Darrell Russell guy.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 12:06 AM
I asked you a question. Name one better garbage man in league history.

Shawn marion was better, did it for longer. But im sure there were playing from the 60's,70's,80's who were better too.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 12:08 AM
I have a question for all those who think that Love is what he is and will never be anything more.

After Dirk's 3rd season in the NBA did any of you think that 10 years later many would be saying he is a top 20 even top 10 player of all time? Or did you say he play's no defense and the fact that he doesn't have a great post game he'd never be a League and Finals MVP.

IMO to say Love is a role player and will never be nothing more than just that is ignorance at its finest.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 12:08 AM
If Beasley is your #1 you have problems. That said, he actually was for most of the 2010-2011 season. Regardless, this whole thread is predicated on the notion that Love is seen as a legit #1 option for a contender or a superstar, he is neither, and I have never seen anyone say any different before this Darrell Russell guy.

I've seen people on here say/put kevin love in top 5 best players, top 10, say he is a superstar, say he is one of a kind, yet he doesnt have much if any impact. Love is just a very good player man, that's it. Im starting to think larry bird was right with his comments in that interview years ago.

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 12:11 AM
The facts are the facts. Gasol's rookie season he led his team to more wins.

He also averaged 10 more minutes a game and was a actually a starter, unlike Love. But yeah, technically you are right, Love won less games his rookie season than Gasol. You keep winning your little battles and continue to miss the bigger picture. I have better stuff to do.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 12:12 AM
I have a question for all those who think that Love is what he is and will never be anything more.

Nobody has said that

After Dirk's 3rd season in the NBA did any of you think that 10 years later
many would be saying he is a top 20 even top 10 player of all time?

Anybody saying that is either stupid, living in the moment, or both.

Or did you say he play's no defense and the fact that he doesn't have a great post game he'd never be a League and Finals MVP.

lol ive never heard anyone say he would never be mvp or finals mvp, i actually remember people hyping him like crazy to me, especially my brother.

IMO to say Love is a role player and will never be nothing more than just that is ignorance at its finest.


Again nobody said he doesnt have a chance to be more than that, but to automatically say he will, is based off of your hope. Just because someone has potential doesn't mean it will materialize.



......................

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 12:13 AM
He also averaged 10 more minutes a game and was a actually a starter, unlike Love. But yeah, technically you are right, Love won less games his rookie season than Gasol. You keep winning your little battles and continue to miss the bigger picture. I have better stuff to do.

No you dont get it, im saying gasol in his rookie year alone won more than love THIS year. But yea i was right on that too.

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 12:13 AM
I've seen people on here say/put kevin love in top 5 best players, top 10, say he is a superstar, say he is one of a kind, yet he doesnt have much if any impact. Love is just a very good player man, that's it. Im starting to think larry bird was right with his comments in that interview years ago.

Well it wasn't an educated poster who said that, I can guarantee you. Maybe you should chose your battles more wisely.

Giraffes Rule
06-21-2011, 12:14 AM
I was going to look up all the stats and make a real solid post as to why Kevin Love's defensive problems are exaggerated, and how great he is offensively AND how your "he plays on a bad team so his rebounding is inflated" is a complete ******** argument, but then I read this thread. Obviously nothing is going to change your mind.

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff51/Kilberg1/Double%20Takes/bGjfANdAGj9t1y81lIVqe3uKo1_500.gif

PurpleJesus
06-21-2011, 12:16 AM
people are gonna have to find ways to hate...No one is calling Love a superstar, but someone needs to find a reason to hate, so he is going to claim that people consider Love a superstar, then he is going to hate based on his own invention of a reason to hate.

Punk
06-21-2011, 12:16 AM
Lol at this thread.

This was Love's FIRST season as the franchise player. Did you expect?

Wade was on a 15 win team. Least impactful option.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 12:17 AM
Shawn marion was better, did it for longer. But im sure there were playing from the 60's,70's,80's who were better too.

Marion benefited a great deal from his supporting cast, Nash and the system in Phoenix. He found his niche playing off the ball but he was not the a garbage man. He has a higher %ast on his shots than Love in his career. Sure he did the dirty work in terms of grabbing boards but offensively he was a big part of the system. He was not a garbage man.

Avenged
06-21-2011, 12:18 AM
and so was Jamaal Magloire :rolleyes:

look i know he's a good player in his 3rd year in the NBA but for someone to say he's one of a kind, sure he put up a unholy game of great numbers, but that can happen to the least likely player, who could end up doing something ending up in the record books. who expected Love to do something like that... noone.

he carries his team cuz the rest of the team SUCKS. i'm just gonna say he's the perfect role player waiting for the star to come to Minny.

Production wise Magloire has never put up a season like Love has. He was also voted into the all-star game in 04 while putting up 13 points and 10 rebounds, numbers that Love has surpassed. In fact, Love surpassed that in his second year in the league.

That wasn't even Magloires best year btw, he took a step back rather than forward meanwhile Love has showed absolutely no sign on regressing.

Just because the majority didn't expect Love to put up the numbers he did doesn't mean he sucks. I call that "proving you wrong". The fact that he's been improving every year which goes back to his college days, and remained consistent throughout shows that he is definitely being underrated here.

He's a solid all-star, not a superstar, not sure why people are having a hard time accepting this. The numbers are their to back him up.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 12:18 AM
people are gonna have to find ways to hate...No one is calling Love a superstar, but someone needs to find a reason to hate, so he is going to claim that people consider Love a superstar, then he is going to hate based on his own invention of a reason to hate.

Pure bs, people on here have said it, and put him in their top 5 best players in the nba today.

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 12:18 AM
No you dont get it, im saying gasol in his rookie year alone won more than love THIS year. But yea i was right on that too.

Yep, Gasol in his rookie season had like 6 more wins than Love did this year. Bravo.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 12:18 AM
Marion benefited a great deal from his supporting cast, Nash and the system in Phoenix. He found his niche playing off the ball but he was not the a garbage man. He has a higher %ast on his shots than Love in his career. Sure he did the dirty work in terms of grabbing boards but offensively he was a big part of the system. He was not a garbage man.

Marion was putting up 19 and 10 before nash

PurpleJesus
06-21-2011, 12:19 AM
Pure bs, people on here have said it, and put him in their top 5 best players in the nba today.

lol, who...please find me something. It doesnt exsist, you are just trying to find a way to hate on one of the leagues best young stars.

twin4life
06-21-2011, 12:20 AM
he's not a #1 player...he's just the best player on a crap team. he's still an amazing talent though and has a great array of skills.

This.

The Wolves are starting to look better and better each day.Adding talent (and getting Beasley working very hard on his game in the off season). Talk about an exciting team. Im gonna go out on a limb and say that the Wolves WILL make the playoffs if not this year next year.

PurpleJesus
06-21-2011, 12:20 AM
so...is the point of this thread that Love isnt good because he isnt a superstar?

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 12:21 AM
I was going to look up all the stats and make a real solid post as to why Kevin Love's defensive problems are exaggerated, and how great he is offensively AND how your "he plays on a bad team so his rebounding is inflated" is a complete ******** argument, but then I read this thread. Obviously nothing is going to change your mind.


So you were going to look up stats to prove is a good number 1 option and great impact player?

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 12:21 AM
......................

Have you read anything in this thread. A poster in this very thread has said Love is a role player and nothing more.

Dirk's resume is worthy of a top 20 player.

You are obviously hoping for Love to fail because everything points to the fact that he would be a good player and you are just being the resident naysayer.

Giraffes Rule
06-21-2011, 12:22 AM
Pure bs, people on here have said it, and put him in their top 5 best players in the nba today.

Prove it. Find me a quote where ANYONE said Kevin Love is a top 5 player overall.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 12:22 AM
lol, who...please find me something. It doesnt exsist, you are just trying to find a way to hate on one of the leagues best young stars.

Maybe if psd didn't clean out the nba forum i could find the thread, if you can tell me where i can find the older threads i will gladly show you. But if you were around during the season, im sure you saw it.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 12:22 AM
Marion was putting up 19 and 10 before nash

And even then he wasn't better than Love.

What about the other players from the 60s/70s/80s?

Hustlenomics
06-21-2011, 12:23 AM
he's definitely not the type of player you build your team around

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 12:24 AM
so...is the point of this thread that Love isnt good because he isnt a superstar?

So is the point of your posts to ignore my posts of me saying kevin love is a very good player throughout this thread?

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 12:24 AM
Maybe if psd didn't clean out the nba forum i could find the thread, if you can tell me where i can find the older threads i will gladly show you. But if you were around during the season, im sure you saw it.

PSD doesn't clean out the NBA Forum go do a search. You are lying just like you lied about watching the Wolves more than 5 times. NO ONE has ever said on this forum that Kevin Love is a top 5 player.

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 12:24 AM
so...is the point of this thread that Love isnt good because he isnt a superstar?

No, it's that some moron somewhere that Darrell Russell can't prove said Love is a superstar is wrong and Love is actually a good player. Most pointless thread ever and I can't believe I am contributing to it. I have no life.

PurpleJesus
06-21-2011, 12:24 AM
Maybe if psd didn't clean out the nba forum i could find the thread, if you can tell me where i can find the older threads i will gladly show you. But if you were around during the season, im sure you saw it.

just go into the NBA forum and scroll back...if a bunch of people claim he is a top 5 player, like you claim people do, then you should have multiple quotes...there was even a top 10 player thread a day or two ago, that one should be easy to find.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 12:25 AM
And even then he wasn't better than Love.

What about the other players from the 60s/70s/80s?

He sure did help his teams win more than love. So better stats= better player to you?

PurpleJesus
06-21-2011, 12:25 AM
No, it's that some moron somewhere that Darrell Russell can't prove said Love is a superstar is wrong and Love is actually a good player. Most pointless thread ever and I can't believe I am contributing to it. I have no life.

good post.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 12:26 AM
just go into the NBA forum and scroll back...if a bunch of people claim he is a top 5 player, like you claim people do, then you should have multiple quotes...there was even a top 10 player thread a day or two ago, that one should be easy to find.

It only goes to yesterday, and this thread was from a couple of months ago.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 12:26 AM
just go into the NBA forum and scroll back...if a bunch of people claim he is a top 5 player, like you claim people do, then you should have multiple quotes...there was even a top 10 player thread a day or two ago, that one should be easy to find.

The top 10 thread is still up. There are tons of threads like that in the comparison forum as well.

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 12:26 AM
good post.

**** Lee Terry

PurpleJesus
06-21-2011, 12:27 AM
He sure did help his teams win more than love. So better stats= better player to you?

whoever you claim helped his team win more games, I suggest you look at that players teammates. I saw you referencing Gasol, and I am assuming that is Marc, so I would hope you would realize that he had Rudy Gay with him.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 12:27 AM
good post.

Aww good post because it agrees with you, even though it was inaccurate.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 12:28 AM
He sure did help his teams win more than love. So better stats= better player to you?

He had a better team. This is a team sport.

Better stats doesn't always = better player

However an understand of the stats coupled with watching the player actually play basketball gives you the greatest understanding of the sport you can have. Your eye is bias the stats aren't.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 12:29 AM
Kevin love doesn't have much impact as a number one option

PurpleJesus
06-21-2011, 12:30 AM
Kevin love doesn't have much impact as a number one option

something that about 95% of PSD and NBA fans would agree with...Not sure what this thread is about...your just trying to hate.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 12:31 AM
Kevin love doesn't have much impact as a number one option

NO ONE said he is a #1 option. There isn't even 10 true #1 options in the NBA today.

PurpleJesus
06-21-2011, 12:31 AM
**** Lee Terry

I hate that guy, dont know why I ever switched it. Lee Terry is a douche, **** him

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 12:32 AM
whoever you claim helped his team win more games, I suggest you look at that players teammates. I saw you referencing Gasol, and I am assuming that is Marc, so I would hope you would realize that he had Rudy Gay with him.

That was me and I was comparing Gasol (Pau) having 20 some wins with the Grizzlies 4 or 5 of the years he played there to try and bring some perspective to his argument that because the Wolves only had 16 wins in 2010 that is a negative reflection on Kevin love as a player and not just the fact that our team sucked hairy donkey balls.

It fell on deaf ears, needless to say.

Giraffes Rule
06-21-2011, 12:35 AM
NO ONE said he is a #1 option. There isn't even 10 true #1 options in the NBA today.

I think he's trying to claim that Kevin Love is the number 1 option on the Timberwolves, and since they suck then Kevin Love has no impact. Only problem with this is that Kevin Love is top 10 in win shares and top 5 in offensive win shares. Oh yeah, and the fact that being the best player on your team is not the same as being the number 1 option.

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 12:36 AM
Aww good post because it agrees with you, even though it was inaccurate.

Actually I disagreed with him, big difference. Like a 180 degree difference. That and I don't expect an addict to admit he has a problem, that is part of the condition.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 12:39 AM
I think he's trying to claim that Kevin Love is the number 1 option on the Timberwolves, and since they suck then Kevin Love has no impact. Only problem with this is that Kevin Love is top 10 in win shares and top 5 in offensive win shares. Oh yeah, and the fact that being the best player on your team is not the same as being the number 1 option.

Win shares mean absolutely nothing when your team isn't actually a (wait for it)......................................... winner.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 12:39 AM
Actually I disagreed with him, big difference. Like a 180 degree difference. That and I don't expect an addict to admit he has a problem, that is part of the condition.

Post wasn't directed towards you buddy.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 12:40 AM
I think he's trying to claim that Kevin Love is the number 1 option on the Timberwolves, and since they suck then Kevin Love has no impact. Only problem with this is that Kevin Love is top 10 in win shares and top 5 in offensive win shares. Oh yeah, and the fact that being the best player on your team is not the same as being the number 1 option.

If he even watched Timberwolves basketball he would know that Love isn't even the #1 option on his own team. Beasley was last season, Love played independent of that.

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 12:40 AM
Oh yeah, and the fact that being the best player on your team is not the same as being the number 1 option.

Ding ding ding ding! As stated before, Beasley was the Wolves #1 option for much of last season.

mlisica19
06-21-2011, 12:41 AM
Your talking about the triple double king? Double double king. Seriously? Maybe blame the team around him. I think Ricky will help him greatly... there thinkin of trading Love for Paul Gasol OOOO

G.A.M.E.
06-21-2011, 12:44 AM
hahaha wow,

Avenged
06-21-2011, 12:45 AM
Win shares mean absolutely nothing when your team isn't actually a (wait for it)......................................... winner.

It means a lot actually once you learn to interpret stats. You cannot fault him for the lack of talent his team possesses. The fact that his win shares went from 4.9 to 11.4 shows how much he has contributed and improved in the course of just 1 season.

PurpleJesus
06-21-2011, 12:46 AM
Your talking about the triple double king? Double double king. Seriously? Maybe blame the team around him. I think Ricky will help him greatly... there thinkin of trading Love for Paul Gasol OOOO

no they arent. Love is the Wolves only solid building block, they are not looking to trade him. There was a rumor wolves offered #2 and change for Pau, then there was a rumor Lakers countered with #2 and Love.

avrpatsfan
06-21-2011, 12:49 AM
You've obviously never heard of Chris Bosh. (On the Raptors)

Giraffes Rule
06-21-2011, 12:50 AM
Win shares mean absolutely nothing when your team isn't actually a (wait for it)......................................... winner.

Actually if you look at the way the stat is calculated, it does mean something. Or you could look at the plethora of other stats that back up that Kevin Love is a great player.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

I also like how you completely ignored my other point too. Kevin Love is not, and never will be the number 1 option for any team. That's not the kind of player he is.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 12:53 AM
Actually if you look at the way the stat is calculated, it does mean something. Or you could look at the plethora of other stats that back up that Kevin Love is a great player.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

I also like how you completely ignored my other point too. Kevin Love is not, and never will be the number 1 option for any team. That's not the kind of player he is.

Obviously he will, he's been doing that throughout the entire thread.

Avenged
06-21-2011, 12:57 AM
Ok why do you guys have to come in here and kill the thread when good discussion is coming out of it? Go hit up the off-topic forum or something. Please stay on topic.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:03 AM
What discussion? Its mostly everybody throwing stats at this Darrell dude and he pulls a D Rose Bulls and completely ignores it.

You just really end up going in circles with this.

How's posting stats of a player on a 15 win team gonna prove that he is an impact player? You guys can derail the thread (which i thought wasn't allowed), but the fact stands the guy isn't an impact player.

FriedTofuz
06-21-2011, 01:03 AM
15 rebounds on a team where nobody else averaged more than 5, clearly nobody else rebounds so he would get those by default since he is their only rebounder. He is a good passer, great passer is more stretching. Amazing basketball iq? Please stop overrating, he is good but amazing is all time great stuff. Again posting inflated stats that has no impact on his team winning, which is my point. A lot of great players played on bad teams and led them to more than 17 wins, at least 30. The excuses for this guy is hilarious.

He was always a good rebounder. Regardless of how bad his team rebounds, he grabbed 31 boards and scored 31 pts. That hasnt been done for a extremly long time. He wasnt putting any effort in the previous seasons, and now its showing how great he can become.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 01:05 AM
How's posting stats of a player on a 15 win team gonna prove that he is an impact player? You guys can derail the thread (which i thought wasn't allowed), but the fact stands the guy isn't an impact player.

I didn't see when anyone posted stats about the 07-08 Miami Heat.

What the hell are you talking about fact remains? It takes a T.E.A.M. smh.

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 01:05 AM
I concur Dr. Jesus.

PurpleJesus
06-21-2011, 01:06 AM
woh, two pages dissapeared all of a sudden

ssprimetime
06-21-2011, 01:06 AM
Amazing talent is an absolute stretch, great skills is a stretch. Im sorry but if you are that amazing and have such a great array of skills, you should lead your team to more than 56 wins in 3 years.

Obviously you know nothing about klove, twolves or even basketball for that matter

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:06 AM
He was always a good rebounder. Regardless of how bad his team rebounds, he grabbed 31 boards and scored 31 pts. That hasnt been done for a extremly long time. He wasnt putting any effort in the previous seasons, and now its showing how great he can become.

You see that's the thing, i dont disagree that he can become great, but he isn't right now, he is just very good. He can become great but it isn't a given like some people in here would love to make it seem.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:08 AM
Obviously you know nothing about klove, twolves or even basketball for that matter

Sure guy, because he is such an amazing talent. Amazing talent's are kobe,jordan,lebron, people like that had amazing talent.

Giraffes Rule
06-21-2011, 01:15 AM
How's posting stats of a player on a 15 win team gonna prove that he is an impact player? You guys can derail the thread (which i thought wasn't allowed), but the fact stands the guy isn't an impact player.

The stats disprove your theory. All you're doing is stating an opinion (and that's what it is, an opinion) without backing it up with anything of substance, while other people have stats and have watched the guy play. He's an excellent rebounder. He doesn't have explosive athleticism, but he knows how to position his body and move bigger, stronger, more athletic players out of the way to get the rebound. Even if there's nobody else on his team trying for the boards, doesn't that make what he does even more impressive? He's out there fighting off all of the opposing team's rebounders on his own and beating them on a consistent basis. That's how you make an impact on a team.

G.A.M.E.
06-21-2011, 01:15 AM
Darrell Russell is so stumped he has no idea what to say.....trust me he has had a looooooooooong time to formulate a good response.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 01:18 AM
Darrell Russell is so stumped he has no idea what to say.....trust me he has had a looooooooooong time to formulate a good response.

How can he formulate something he is not capable of comprehending? All the time in the world won't change his ignorance.

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 01:21 AM
How can he formulate something he is not capable of comprehending? All the time in the world won't change his ignorance.

He is capable, just not willing.

Hawkeye15
06-21-2011, 01:21 AM
I've seen people on here say/put kevin love in top 5 best players, top 10, say he is a superstar, say he is one of a kind, yet he doesnt have much if any impact. Love is just a very good player man, that's it. Im starting to think larry bird was right with his comments in that interview years ago.

Just catching back up here, but this is pure BS. who is saying a 22 year old with stats never seen that played on a terrible team was what you claim?

You are missing the point. You are attempting to judge a player with a young, terrible roster against various trade proposals from what I can tell. Love isn't a superstar. He will never be a top 5 player imo, even though I am his biggest supporter. But if you don't think Love can be a GREAT #2-3 option on a contender in his prime, you haven't watched him play, its as simple as that. Nor do you understand statistics.

1twolvesfan
06-21-2011, 01:22 AM
Maybe, but Beasley's missed shots help pad his rebounding stats.

so did love's missed shots that he missed right under the rim.

FriedTofuz
06-21-2011, 01:22 AM
Twolves just need a compliment player to love who can be an all star. PEople will give him alot more respect for the things hes capable of doing.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:22 AM
The stats disprove your theory.

no, they dont. It isn't a theory. What do impact players do? Tell me

All you're doing is stating an opinion (and that's what it is, an opinion) without backing it up with anything of substance, while other people have stats and have watched the guy play.

I've watched him play, and those stats have no barring on his impact, you know why? Because the stat that matters are wins and losses. Kevin love has no impact on his team wins or losses, al jefferson led a similar twolves team to 22 wins, while kevin love has led them to 17. Both guys are just losers man.

He's an excellent rebounder.

agreed


He doesn't have explosive athleticism


he doesnt even have good athleticism

, but he knows how to position his body and move bigger
, stronger, more athletic players out of the way to get the rebound. Even if there's nobody else on his team trying for the boards, doesn't that make what he does even more impressive?


No it doesn't, it is what it is. Is it more impressive when rose puts up 30 points because supposedly nobody else can score?


He's out there fighting off all of the opposing team's rebounders on his own

and beating them on a consistent basis. That's how you make an impact on a team.

Now how has that impact translated to wins? Sounds more like hollow performance to me





....................

G.A.M.E.
06-21-2011, 01:23 AM
Twolves just need a compliment player to love who can be an all star. PEople will give him alot more respect for the things hes capable of doing.

ehhh... occasional stalker?

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:24 AM
Darrell Russell is so stumped he has no idea what to say.....trust me he has had a looooooooooong time to formulate a good response.

Last time i checked i made the thread, it is up to you guys to disprove something that stats of a guy on a 15 win team cant disprove.

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 01:25 AM
so did love's missed shots that he missed right under the rim.

Haha, yep.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 01:25 AM
....................

Basketball is a T.E.A.M. sport. TEAM. What about that can't you wrap your mind around?

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 01:26 AM
Last time i checked i made the thread, it is up to you guys to disprove something that stats of a guy on a 15 win team cant disprove.

Who are we talking about here Dwyane Wade or Kevin Love?

Giraffes Rule
06-21-2011, 01:26 AM
Last time i checked i made the thread, it is up to you guys to disprove something that stats of a guy on a 15 win team cant disprove.

It's not our fault that you don't understand statistics.

Hawkeye15
06-21-2011, 01:27 AM
Darrell, I could post Love's defensive stat's showing his opponents only hit 41%, or that he stole possessions away because of his completely dominant rebounding, or that he doesn't give deep position because his base is strong, or that he forces opponents to shoot shots out of their comfort zone, or that synergy shows me that statistically he is in the top 1/3 of PF's defensively while judging opponents counterproduction.

But you just won't care. You might actually point to the tampon in heat that is our center Darko, and his per block games (per game stats are for archaic fans mind you), or you might point to the fact that Beasley has a sexy 19 ppg on horrid shooting (I would guess you leave out the term "horrid"), but the fact is, our perimeter defense would leave Dwight Howard open for penetration...

Love had the first 20-15 season in 28 years. First player EVER to go for 20-15-40-80. You can call him a complimentary player all you like, there are 30 teams that would kill to have him, and trade huge pieces.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 01:27 AM
It's not our fault that you don't understand statistics.

Or basketball on a whole.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:27 AM
Who are we talking about here Dwyane Wade or Kevin Love?

The fact that you continually compare the two in this thread gives me reason to ignore you from this point.

ssprimetime
06-21-2011, 01:28 AM
Sure guy, because he is such an amazing talent. Amazing talent's are kobe,jordan,lebron, people like that had amazing talent.

I didnt know love was in the discussion of being one of the all time greats like kobe, jordan and lebron and last time I checked kobe and jordan had some legit teamates when they won it and one of if not the best coach of all time. But hey keep proving everyone wrong by putting MJ stats against loves cause it proves your point so much.

FriedTofuz
06-21-2011, 01:29 AM
....................


ehhh... occasional stalker?


nooooooooo


he is like a langolier!!

Come on guys, lets stay on topic.

Love is impactful depending on how you look at his game. I havent seen much of him, but by stats, I can asure you, he can affect a team that struggles to rebound.
What does rebounding do? it helps both defense and offense.Love can bring in more possesions for his teamates. He can secure rebounds so the opposing team cant get extra shots. He may not play on a contender, but his impact would be valuable. Sure if he played on a contender, his ppg productivity may not be 20 PPG, but hes young and getting better, and theres no reason why his impact should be labeled as " least impactful"

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 01:29 AM
Last time i checked i made the thread, it is up to you guys to disprove something that stats of a guy on a 15 win team cant disprove.

First you have to learn to interpret the stats correctly. Are you willing to drop your preconceived notions? If you are then guys like Hawk can give you a better understanding.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 01:30 AM
The fact that you continually compare the two in this thread gives me reason to ignore you from this point.

You keep talking about a 15 win team. Its confusing. I just wanted clarification.

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 01:30 AM
The fact that you continually compare the two in this thread gives me reason to ignore you from this point.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you bring him up in the first place?

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:31 AM
Love had the first 20-15 season in 28 years. First player EVER to go for 20-15-40-80. You can call him a complimentary player all you like, there are 30 teams that would kill to have him, and trade huge pieces.

Do you even understand what you are arguing in this thread? I really think many of you are just arguing to argue. First player ever, but it didn't translate to any impact on the team that even al jefferson provided, is that not true? He is a complimentary player, a number 3 on a championship team, very good and nothing wrong with that. He isn't an amazing talent like some guy in this thread said, he isn't a great player. Just because the guy isn't great doesn't mean he is bad, and you guys posting those stats are trying to act like you have no idea about players putting up hollow stats and not actually having a real impact.

G.A.M.E.
06-21-2011, 01:31 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you bring him up in the first place?

Yes he did.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:32 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you bring him up in the first place?

No, he did and continues to do so.

edit: it was post 22

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 01:33 AM
No, he did and continues to do so.

Because you continue to say the Wolves won 15 games.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 01:34 AM
Do you even understand what you are arguing in this thread? I really think many of you are just arguing to argue. First player ever, but it didn't translate to any impact on the team that even al jefferson provided, is that not true? He is a complimentary player, a number 3 on a championship team, very good and nothing wrong with that. He isn't an amazing talent like some guy in this thread said, he isn't a great player. Just because the guy isn't great doesn't mean he is bad, and you guys posting those stats are trying to act like you have no idea about players putting up hollow stats and not actually having a real impact.

tell me something without Kevin Love playing the way he did last season, how many wins would the Wolves have had?

Giraffes Rule
06-21-2011, 01:34 AM
Do you even understand what you are arguing in this thread? I really think many of you are just arguing to argue. First player ever, but it didn't translate to any impact on the team that even al jefferson provided, is that not true? He is a complimentary player, a number 3 on a championship team, very good and nothing wrong with that. He isn't an amazing talent like some guy in this thread said, he isn't a great player. Just because the guy isn't great doesn't mean he is bad, and you guys posting those stats are trying to act like you have no idea about players putting up hollow stats and not actually having a real impact.

This is your point: Kevin Love is a good player that doesn't help teams win. Also you were raped by someone who repeated the word "great" whilst ravaging your anus, which is the only reason I can think of as to why you're so stuck on this great vs very good semantics ********.

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 01:35 AM
No, he did and continues to do so.

Fine, I stand corrected. I still don't understand what your point or what the point of this thread even is. Perhaps you can clarify so we can have a clearer understanding of what it is you are trying to say.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:35 AM
This is your point: Kevin Love is a good player that doesn't help teams win. Also you were raped by someone who repeated the word "great" whilst ravaging your anus, which is the only reason I can think of as to why you're so stuck on this great vs very good semantics ********.

You're angry by facts and resort to homosexuality.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:37 AM
Fine, I stand corrected. I still don't understand what your point or what the point of this thread even is. Perhaps you can clarify so we can have a clearer understanding of what it is you are trying to say.

I've mad it clear enough in numerous posts man

G.A.M.E.
06-21-2011, 01:37 AM
You're angry by facts and resort to homosexuality.

No, you are saying he just became homo and im sure thats not what this thread is about.

Hawkeye15
06-21-2011, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by Darrell Russell


Do you even understand what you are arguing in this thread?

Are you really trying to take small portions of my posts to reply to, when you are the one who has scattered thoughts in this thread?


I really think many of you are just arguing to argue.

Its called a mirror. Look into it.


First player ever, but it didn't translate to any impact on the team that even al jefferson provided, is that not true?

Do you have any clue how to measure roster support in a team sport? Rhetorical question


He is a complimentary player, a number 3 on a championship team, very good and nothing wrong with that.

Still waiting for you to show me (us) who said he is a top 5-10 player



He isn't an amazing talent like some guy in this thread said, he isn't a great player.

Show me another 22 year old with his numbers at the PF position. Good luck


Just because the guy isn't great doesn't mean he is bad, and you guys posting those stats are trying to act like you have no idea about players putting up hollow stats and not actually having a real impact.


I am sorry if you don't understand advanced statistics, that is on you. As far as pure basketball knowledge goes, I will take you on anytime you wish. Been there, done that for 25 years.

Now, if you wish to actually dig deeper into how to evaluate a player, individually, then you might have something here. But so far, you are using team success as your entire concept on how to evaluate players. Team success, and poor roster evaluation, is how we miss value in individuals. I expect you to quote just a portion of this point, to again side step debating me, but I would be interested in picking your brain, since I am not familiar with you here.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:39 AM
tell me something without Kevin Love playing the way he did last season, how many wins would the Wolves have had?

The amount they won with al jefferson in that role instead of kevin love?

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 01:39 AM
I've mad it clear enough in numerous posts man

Obviously not when you look at the overall confusion in this thread in terms of your stance. Just lay it out in plain terms, what is your point?

ssprimetime
06-21-2011, 01:40 AM
You're angry by facts and resort to homosexuality.

Facts? The only fact you provide is the teams wins not any about kevin love so learn the difference about a team and a player this is a team sports sometimes great players play on teams that arent great but going by your logic if a player is great that means the team will win 50+ games right?

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 01:41 AM
The amount they won with al jefferson in that role instead of kevin love?

could you please stop dodging and answer the question.

FriedTofuz
06-21-2011, 01:42 AM
The amount they won with al jefferson in that role instead of kevin love?

What are you talking about? When they had Al Jeff, kevin wasnt playing at the level that hes currently playing at.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:42 AM
Are you really trying to take small portions of my posts to reply to, when you are the one who has scattered thoughts in this thread?

Irrelevant



Do you have any clue how to measure roster support in a team sport? Rhetorical question


Do you?

Still waiting for you to show me (us) who said he is a top 5-10 player

Clearly missed the other posts in this thread


Show me another 22 year old with his numbers at the PF position. Good luck


Irrelevant

I am sorry if you don't understand advanced statistics

I do, irrelevant.

that is on you. As far as pure basketball knowledge goes, I will take you on anytime you wish. Been there, done that for 25 years.



Good to know you've been doing that for 25 years and will still argue that kevin love is an impact player on a 15 win team

Now, if you wish to actually dig deeper into how to evaluate a player, individually, then you might have something here.

But so far, you are using team success as your entire concept on how to evaluate players. Team success, and poor roster evaluation, is how we miss value in individuals. I expect you to quote just a portion of this point, to again side step debating me, but I would be interested in picking your brain, since I am not familiar with you here.

Okay tell me this please, what amazing talents, great players,impact players have led their teams to 15 wins when healthy for 73 games?

Delfiffer
06-21-2011, 01:43 AM
love was the best pf in 2011. he had the highest PER among pf's (better than dirk, griffin, randolph, garnett, etc.) 4th highest PER in the entire league in only his 3rd season and yet some people say he isn't a superstar or wont be a no.1 option. All completely bogus.
He may technically not be a superstar yet but he will be one quickly and he can be the no.1 option on a good team. He just needs better teammates.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:43 AM
What are you talking about? When they had Al Jeff, kevin wasnt playing at the level that hes currently playing at.

The year before kevin love even got there, al jefferson had a bad team and led them to 22 wins. If he wants to argue that way, then ill engage him with that.

Giraffes Rule
06-21-2011, 01:44 AM
The amount they won with al jefferson in that role instead of kevin love?

Tony Parker versus Deron Williams, who is the better point guard? Straight up, that's the only question.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:44 AM
love was the best pf in 2011. he had the 4th highest PER in the entire league in only his 3rd season and yet some people say he isn't a superstar or wont be a no.1 option. All completely bogus.
Love will be a superstar quickly and he can be the no.1 option on a good team. He just needs better teammates

Oh lord

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:45 AM
Tony Parker versus Deron Williams, who is the better point guard? Straight up, that's the only question.

They've had similar teams?

Giraffes Rule
06-21-2011, 01:46 AM
They've had similar teams?

Just answer the question. Tony Parker or Deron Williams, who is the better individual player?

Hawkeye15
06-21-2011, 01:47 AM
Okay tell me this please, what amazing talents, great players,impact players have led their teams to 15 wins when healthy for 73 games?

Again, who is feeding your brain that Love is already a top 5 player, which is what would be required to lead a team to a big win total when Luke Ridnour is your 2nd best player?

You are side stepping so many debates here man. Man up and confront an actual post, point for point.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 01:47 AM
Okay tell me this please, what amazing talents, great players,impact players have led their teams to 15 wins when healthy for 73 games?

they won 17 games what in that don't you understand?

Without him they went 0-9. Had he not played at the level he did they could have easily had the worst record in the history of the game.

Oh and you basically dodged every single thing he asked you. You are a liar. You understand nothing about basketball, stats, evaluating a player/team..... basically you know nothing. You really wasted all our times tonight. Smh.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:48 AM
Obviously not when you look at the overall confusion in this thread in terms of your stance. Just lay it out in plain terms, what is your point?

Ive stated it so many times man. Kevin love just isn't a great player or amazing talent, a team won't win with him as the best player since he isn't an impact player.

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 01:49 AM
Seriously Russell, nobody here is arguing that Love is a top 5 or even top 10 player. You are arguing with nobody about nothing. Whoever said that, if they said that, was wrong, period, so what is there to discuss?

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:50 AM
Again, who is feeding your brain that Love is already a top 5 player, which is what would be required to lead a team to a big win total when Luke Ridnour is your 2nd best player?

You are side stepping so many debates here man. Man up and confront an actual post, point for point.

Im sorry dude but ridnour is not better than beasley.


Originally Posted by Delfiffer View Post
love was the best pf in 2011. he had the 4th highest PER in the entire league in only his 3rd season and yet some people say he isn't a superstar or wont be a no.1 option. All completely bogus.

apparently that guy thinks kevin love is not only the best pf, but a superstar.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:51 AM
Seriously Russell, nobody here is arguing that Love is a top 5 or even top 10 player. You are arguing with nobody about nothing. Whoever said that, if they said that, was wrong, period, so what is there to discuss?

Well why are people in here trying to argue that love is an impact player? A guy in this very thread said he was an amazing talent, a few said he was a great player.

FriedTofuz
06-21-2011, 01:51 AM
Has anyone actually seen kevin love play constantly to give their opinion?

FriedTofuz
06-21-2011, 01:52 AM
Im sorry dude but ridnour is not better than beasley.



apparently that guy thinks kevin love is not only the best pf, but a superstar.

That was sarcasm, Ridnour, statiscally, isnt even better than beasly.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 01:53 AM
Has anyone actually seen kevin love play constantly to give their opinion?

I saw him play in roughly 15 games or so last season. Hawkeye however has seen damn near every game of his NBA career.

Hawkeye15
06-21-2011, 01:53 AM
Im sorry dude but ridnour is not better than beasley.

Now we enter the "potential espn highlight" argument versus actual results on the floor.

This again tells me you are bs'ing everyone here when you say you have watched the Wolves play

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:55 AM
they won 17 games what in that don't you understand?


Im sorry, i made a typo and put 15 games , oh lordy i made a mistake on 2 measly games.


Without him they went 0-9.

Season was already done with. Plus you argued that pau wouldn't improve them above 17 wins, when al jefferson with a similar team had the twolves with 22.

Had he not played at the level he did they could have easily had the worst record in the history of the game.

Like people said the cavs would without lebron when they lost over 20 straight games? Please.

Oh and you basically dodged every single thing he asked you. You are a liar. You understand nothing about basketball, stats, evaluating a player/team


Irrelevant lies

..... basically you know nothing. You really wasted all our times tonight. Smh.

When you cant win, resort to insults, typical internet tactic.



......................

Hawkeye15
06-21-2011, 01:55 AM
Has anyone actually seen kevin love play constantly to give their opinion?

I may have missed 10-15 of his games in the NBA total so far. So, 230/245 or so

Giraffes Rule
06-21-2011, 01:55 AM
Now we enter the "potential espn highlight" argument versus actual results on the floor.

This again tells me you are bs'ing everyone here when you say you have watched the Wolves play

Wasn't Beasley hurt a lot last season? He only missed 9 games, but I recall him having ankle issues for a while.

FriedTofuz
06-21-2011, 01:55 AM
Now we enter the "potential espn highlight" argument versus actual results on the floor.

This again tells me you are bs'ing everyone here when you say you have watched the Wolves play

Is beasly really inferior to ridnour?

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 01:56 AM
Ive stated it so many times man. Kevin love just isn't a great player or amazing talent, a team won't win with him as the best player since he isn't an impact player.

I can't argue words like 'amazing' and 'great' because that is a semantical argument. In terms of your second point:


a team won't win with him as the best player since he isn't an impact player.

What is your definition of an impact player? Note that there is a difference in some instances between "the best player" on a team and "the #1 option" on a team, as stated earlier.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 01:56 AM
Now we enter the "potential espn highlight" argument versus actual results on the floor.

This again tells me you are bs'ing everyone here when you say you have watched the Wolves play

I have watched the wolves play, ive actually seen them play in person.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 01:56 AM
That was sarcasm, Ridnour, statiscally, isnt even better than beasly.

Actually it wasn't sarcasm and yes statistically speaking Ridnour was a more productive player than Beasley for the Timberwolves last season.

Hawkeye15
06-21-2011, 01:57 AM
Darrell, answer a complete post, instead of bolding what you feel is necessary to reply to to make your argument feel complete inside your head. This is not a critisicm, you seem to be rational, and have a basic understanding of basketball.

Just simply engage a rational response, point by point

Delfiffer
06-21-2011, 01:58 AM
like talking to a brick. Saying kevin love isn't a great player is just foolish

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 01:59 AM
Well why are people in here trying to argue that love is an impact player? A guy in this very thread said he was an amazing talent, a few said he was a great player.

He is (I wouldn't say an amazing talent, but a great talent), but that doesn't mean he also has to be considered a top 5 player in the NBA.

FriedTofuz
06-21-2011, 01:59 AM
Actually it wasn't sarcasm and yes statistically speaking Ridnour was a more productive player than Beasley for the Timberwolves last season.

Guess that just goes to show you, when you dont watch a team play, your opinions cant be valid enough to make arguments. My bad, I really did assume that beasly had better statistics than ridnour.

wait huh, I just checked statistics up, beaslys stats are better than ridnours though. http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/stats/

So statistically, beasly is superior than ridnour, but ridnour has a better impact on the team?

Hawkeye15
06-21-2011, 02:00 AM
Wasn't Beasley hurt a lot last season? He only missed 9 games, but I recall him having ankle issues for a while.

yup, his first 23 games, no doubt Beas was our 2nd best player. Then his ankle problems kicked in, and he also forgot he played a team sport 14 times a game in the last 40 games.

Statistically speaking, Luke was easily our second best player throughout the year. He was the only player outside Randolph (only there 15-20 games) who had a positive simple rating. Beasley gave up more production then he put out for the year

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 02:00 AM
I can't argue words like 'amazing' and 'great' because that is a semantical argument. In terms of your second point:

Come on we all know there is a difference between someone being amazing and someone being good.

What is your definition of an impact player? Note that there is a difference in some instances between "the best player" on a team and "the #1 option" on a team, as stated earlier.
Impact player is someone who changes franchise/helps a team have a winning record as a leading player, you know like what kevin garnett did for that very same team?

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 02:01 AM
like talking to a brick. Saying kevin love isn't a great player is just foolisg

lol

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 02:01 AM
Im sorry, i made a typo and put 15 games , oh lordy i made a mistake on 2 measly games.

Says the guy who was making a big deal about the 6 game difference in Gasol's rookie season and Love's in 2010.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 02:03 AM
He is (I wouldn't say an amazing talent, but a great talent), but that doesn't mean he also has to be considered a top 5 player in the NBA.

He is a good talent, but has great work ethic, very hard working player, which makes up for him not having great talent.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 02:03 AM
Guess that just goes to show you, when you dont watch a team play, your opinions cant be valid enough to make arguments. My bad, I really did assume that beasly had better statistics than ridnour.

Basic stats yes, but when you take a further look and understand how he went about getting them and looking at the advanced numbers as well as a ton of other team value figures you'd see that in the grand scheme of it all his offensive play didn't really help his team that much.

Hawkeye15
06-21-2011, 02:03 AM
I have watched the wolves play, ive actually seen them play in person.

thats great. I have seen them live over 150 times. Point is, most here will take my overall evaluation of the Wolves very seriously, since I have proved fair, and been religiously following them since 1989. And I understand statistics, and watch every team in the NBA play a minimum of 10-15 times a year.

Look man, just take on a debate, point for point, instead of choosing the most irrelevant statement in that post and replying

CityofTreez
06-21-2011, 02:03 AM
Impact player is someone who changes franchise/helps a team have a winning record as a leading player, you know like what kevin garnett did for that very same team?

Kevin Love can go down as one of the better rebounders to ever play the Game.

That has the potential to be very Amazing.

Giraffes Rule
06-21-2011, 02:04 AM
Impact player is someone who changes franchise/helps a team have a winning record as a leading player, you know like what kevin garnett did for that very same team?

There are very few players that can take a crap team and make them a winning team. In fact, outside of Lebron James and Dwight Howard I can't think of a single one playing right now. If that's how you define an impact player, then almost no players in this league are impact players.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 02:04 AM
Says the guy who was making a big deal about the 6 game difference in Gasol's rookie season and Love's in 2010.

Two different things, especially seeing how gasol still led his team to more wins regardless, almost double digit more. Plus i didn't make a big deal, i just stated kevin love this year hasn't even led his team to more wins than gasol in his rookie year, so the young excuse doesn't work, which is true.

Hawkeye15
06-21-2011, 02:05 AM
Guess that just goes to show you, when you dont watch a team play, your opinions cant be valid enough to make arguments. My bad, I really did assume that beasly had better statistics than ridnour.

wait huh, I just checked statistics up, beaslys stats are better than ridnours though. http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/stats/

So statistically, beasly is superior than ridnour, but ridnour has a better impact on the team?

http://www.82games.com/1011/1011MIN.HTM

just one bit

Hawkeye15
06-21-2011, 02:07 AM
Two different things, especially seeing how gasol still led his team to more wins regardless, almost double digit more. Plus i didn't make a big deal, i just stated kevin love this year hasn't even led his team to more wins than gasol in his rookie year, so the young excuse doesn't work, which is true.

can you give me a roster breakdown for your claim? And I mean in depth, not just your "eye test"

Sadds The Gr8
06-21-2011, 02:07 AM
Guess that just goes to show you, when you dont watch a team play, your opinions cant be valid enough to make arguments. My bad, I really did assume that beasly had better statistics than ridnour.

wait huh, I just checked statistics up, beaslys stats are better than ridnours though. http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/stats/

So statistically, beasly is superior than ridnour, but ridnour has a better impact on the team?

per game stats :facepalm:

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 02:07 AM
There are very few players that can take a crap team and make them a winning team. In fact, outside of Lebron James and Dwight Howard I can't think of a single one playing right now. If that's how you define an impact player, then almost no players in this league are impact players.

Lol kevin love has been on the team for 3 years, he isn't a rookie. It's not like he just got drafted there and they handed him the keys like "good luck". Chris paul is an impact player, who has elevated bad players his entire career.

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 02:08 AM
Impact player is someone who changes franchise/helps a team have a winning record as a leading player, you know like what kevin garnett did for that very same team?

You mean the very same team who had a much better supporting cast and a non-dysfunctional coaching regime? Don't try an educate me on the Wolves, you're talking to a lifetime fan here. Kevin Garnett was also the "#1 option" for the Wolves during those years, while Love is not and never will be if we ever wish to compete.

Love can only do so much, and while the players you consider top 5 in the league may be able to lift their team out of the cellar on their individual talent alone, Love is not one of those players. He is a great player mind you, but he needs a better supporting cast.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 02:09 AM
Guess that just goes to show you, when you dont watch a team play, your opinions cant be valid enough to make arguments. My bad, I really did assume that beasly had better statistics than ridnour.

wait huh, I just checked statistics up, beaslys stats are better than ridnours though. http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/stats/

So statistically, beasly is superior than ridnour, but ridnour has a better impact on the team?

http://www.82games.com/1011/1011MIN.HTM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=ridnolu01&y1=2011&p2=beaslmi01&y2=2011



Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 M. Beasley 2010-11 22 73 2361 15.5 .510 .474 5.4 14.1 9.6 12.3 1.1 1.7 12.4 28.3 100 112 0.7 1.0 1.7 0.035
2 L. Ridnour 2010-11 29 71 2159 15.0 .567 .528 1.9 8.6 5.1 28.1 2.1 0.4 17.6 17.8 112 113 3.2 0.8 4.0 0.089

FriedTofuz
06-21-2011, 02:09 AM
per game stats :facepalm:



Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 M. Beasley 2010-11 22 73 2361 15.5 .510 .474 5.4 14.1 9.6 12.3 1.1 1.7 12.4 28.3 100 112 0.7 1.0 1.7 0.035
2 L. Ridnour 2010-11 29 71 2159 15.0 .567 .528 1.9 8.6 5.1 28.1 2.1 0.4 17.6 17.8 112 113 3.2 0.8 4.0 0.089[/QUOTE]
:

actually, its ws/48stats :facepalm:

Giraffes Rule
06-21-2011, 02:09 AM
Lol kevin love has been on the team for 3 years, he isn't a rookie. It's not like he just got drafted there and they handed him the keys like "good luck". Chris paul is an impact player, who has elevated bad players his entire career.

OK my bad, 3 players are impact players in this league. Forgot about Chris Paul.

Sadds The Gr8
06-21-2011, 02:10 AM
Yes. Thats why i said statistically, beasly is better, and somone disagreed. http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/stats/ :facepalm:

and per game stats is a stupid way to prove that:facepalm:

llemon
06-21-2011, 02:10 AM
Brook Lopez?

FriedTofuz
06-21-2011, 02:12 AM
and per game stats is a stupid way to prove that:facepalm:

Regardless of how stupid it is, Statistically( not with advanced stats) Beasly has better stats PPG.



Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 M. Beasley 2010-11 22 73 2361 15.5 .510 .474 5.4 14.1 9.6 12.3 1.1 1.7 12.4 28.3 100 112 0.7 1.0 1.7 0.035
2 L. Ridnour 2010-11 29 71 2159 15.0 .567 .528 1.9 8.6 5.1 28.1 2.1 0.4 17.6 17.8 112 113 3.2 0.8 4.0 0.089[/QUOTE]

If your talking about WS/48 THEN yes, ridnour is better.

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 02:13 AM
He is a good talent, but has great work ethic, very hard working player, which makes up for him not having great talent.

Talent is not just physical you know, he is one of the more intelligent players in the NBA from what I have see over these few seasons. He reads the floor very well, and is an expert at positioning his body for the rebound. He's also a great passer and a great teammate. I guess it all depends on how you define talent. He has certain qualities you can't teach, either you have them or you don't. He's a difference maker, but he needs a better supporting cast to make the difference translate to the win column.

Hawkeye15
06-21-2011, 02:13 AM
Lol kevin love has been on the team for 3 years, he isn't a rookie. It's not like he just got drafted there and they handed him the keys like "good luck". Chris paul is an impact player, who has elevated bad players his entire career.

Wolves had 11 new players on the roster to begin the year, and were the youngest team in the NBA. They had major injuries to begin the year with Flynn and Webster, and played sub 22 year olds monster minutes.

Its not just Love that was young. It was his entire roster. Rambis is a pretty suspect coach, and the Wolves had an expected winning total of 25 wins (though I will assume you have no clue how to understand the calculation).

Love was worth 11.5 win shares. This was #6 in the NBA. His PER was #5. He is the most dominant rebounder since Rodman (I get it, he plays on a team that doesn't have competition in that dept. How about UCLA? How about FIBA, where he set a record for rebound rate? Dude just rebounds. Period). Best outlet passer in 20 years. First player ever to go for 20-15-40-80.

But I understand you don't care about any of that, and simply measure a player off team success. I can't help you there man. But what I can do is show you the discrepancy between Love's roster and any other player you choose. If you are open minded and willing to listen, which you haven't shown in the 40 posts you have in this thread

Sadds The Gr8
06-21-2011, 02:13 AM
Regardless of how stupid it is, Statistically( not with advanced stats) Beasly has better stats PPG.



Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 M. Beasley 2010-11 22 73 2361 15.5 .510 .474 5.4 14.1 9.6 12.3 1.1 1.7 12.4 28.3 100 112 0.7 1.0 1.7 0.035
2 L. Ridnour 2010-11 29 71 2159 15.0 .567 .528 1.9 8.6 5.1 28.1 2.1 0.4 17.6 17.8 112 113 3.2 0.8 4.0 0.089

If your talking about WS/48 THEN yes, ridnour is better.[/QUOTE]
lol

Hawkeye15
06-21-2011, 02:15 AM
Regardless of how stupid it is, Statistically( not with advanced stats) Beasly has better stats PPG.



Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 M. Beasley 2010-11 22 73 2361 15.5 .510 .474 5.4 14.1 9.6 12.3 1.1 1.7 12.4 28.3 100 112 0.7 1.0 1.7 0.035
2 L. Ridnour 2010-11 29 71 2159 15.0 .567 .528 1.9 8.6 5.1 28.1 2.1 0.4 17.6 17.8 112 113 3.2 0.8 4.0 0.089

If your talking about WS/48 THEN yes, ridnour is better.[/QUOTE]

PM me and I will show you why Ridnour was more valuable.

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 02:19 AM
Wolves had 11 new players on the roster to begin the year, and were the youngest team in the NBA. They had major injuries to begin the year with Flynn and Webster, and played sub 22 year olds monster minutes.

Its not just Love that was young. It was his entire roster. Rambis is a pretty suspect coach, and the Wolves had an expected winning total of 25 wins (though I will assume you have no clue how to understand the calculation).

Love was worth 11.5 win shares. This was #6 in the NBA. His PER was #5. He is the most dominant rebounder since Rodman (I get it, he plays on a team that doesn't have competition in that dept. How about UCLA? How about FIBA, where he set a record for rebound rate? Dude just rebounds. Period). Best outlet passer in 20 years. First player ever to go for 20-15-40-80.

But I understand you don't care about any of that, and simply measure a player off team success. I can't help you there man. But what I can do is show you the discrepancy between Love's roster and any other player you choose. If you are open minded and willing to listen, which you haven't shown in the 40 posts you have in this thread

Listen to the man.

Wisdom Listens
06-21-2011, 02:21 AM
I think Russell died at his keyboard.

Avenged
06-21-2011, 02:24 AM
Regardless of how stupid it is, Statistically( not with advanced stats) Beasly has better stats PPG.



Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
1 M. Beasley 2010-11 22 73 2361 15.5 .510 .474 5.4 14.1 9.6 12.3 1.1 1.7 12.4 28.3 100 112 0.7 1.0 1.7 0.035
2 L. Ridnour 2010-11 29 71 2159 15.0 .567 .528 1.9 8.6 5.1 28.1 2.1 0.4 17.6 17.8 112 113 3.2 0.8 4.0 0.089

If your talking about WS/48 THEN yes, ridnour is better.[/QUOTE]

No, Ridnour was better production wise in many statistical categories not just in the WS/48 criteria. Per game stats can be useful but there are other stats out there in which will go into more depth onto how efficiently they produced throughout the game and/or season.

The stats are right there to show you what you miss when watching just the games. You can also add to the fact that Beasley was used a lot more and Ridnour still managed to produce more than him. That right there should tell you something.

slugger82685
06-21-2011, 02:27 AM
Wolves had 11 new players on the roster to begin the year, and were the youngest team in the NBA. They had major injuries to begin the year with Flynn and Webster, and played sub 22 year olds monster minutes.

Its not just Love that was young. It was his entire roster. Rambis is a pretty suspect coach, and the Wolves had an expected winning total of 25 wins (though I will assume you have no clue how to understand the calculation).

Love was worth 11.5 win shares. This was #6 in the NBA. His PER was #5. He is the most dominant rebounder since Rodman (I get it, he plays on a team that doesn't have competition in that dept. How about UCLA? How about FIBA, where he set a record for rebound rate? Dude just rebounds. Period). Best outlet passer in 20 years. First player ever to go for 20-15-40-80.

But I understand you don't care about any of that, and simply measure a player off team success. I can't help you there man. But what I can do is show you the discrepancy between Love's roster and any other player you choose. If you are open minded and willing to listen, which you haven't shown in the 40 posts you have in this thread


amen!...I really like what Love brings to the table and I do think he is the kind of player you can build around. Put him on one of those teams that is good and just needing that one piece to bring them to the next level and Love is your man....say he went to OKC or Trailblazers and Love would make them a legit championship caliber team.....and actually if the timberwolves play their cards right with the draft and free agency, I can see them greatly improving with Love being a key to that.

knickfan33
06-21-2011, 02:30 AM
hell no... kevin love is nasty, i did not think he was gonna be that god whne he came out, but he is a beast.

Darrell Russell
06-21-2011, 04:28 AM
Wolves had 11 new players on the roster to begin the year, and were the youngest team in the NBA. They had major injuries to begin the year with Flynn and Webster, and played sub 22 year olds monster minutes.

Cavs also had a lot of injuries, and lost over 20 straight and STILL had a better record and none of their players are better than kevin love.

Its not just Love that was young. It was his entire roster. Rambis is a pretty suspect coach, and the Wolves had an expected winning total of 25 wins (though I will assume you have no clue how to understand the calculation).

So they won less than expected? Well that helps the argument for love greatly buddy.

Love was worth 11.5 win shares.


irrelevant on a 17 win team

His PER was #5.

Didn't translate to results



He is the most dominant rebounder since Rodman (I get it, he plays on a team that doesn't have competition in that dept. How about UCLA? How about FIBA, where he set a record for rebound rate? Dude just rebounds. Period).

okay

Best outlet passer in 20 years.

lol that's a category now? Are we going to rate the best inbound passers next?

First player ever to go for 20-15-40-80.

Tell me how that translated to success?


But I understand you don't care about any of that, and simply measure a player off team success.

Exactly, you guys say "oh it's a team game", but then post individual stats as to why kevin love is an impact player, yet it doesnt show in the wins. I mean seriously, you take a guy off of a 17 win team and they lose 5 more games who will care? It isn't much impact, it is purely irrelevant.

I can't help you there man. But what I can do is show you the discrepancy between Love's roster and any other player you choose.

Love's roster isn't worse than gasol's rookie year roster, when shane battier of all people was his second best scorer, and overrated jason williams.

If you are open minded and willing to listen, which you haven't shown in the 40 posts you have in this thread

..............................

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 09:24 AM
..............................

I must say you really don't know basketball and don't even comprehend the basic fundamentals of holding a debate.

WSU Tony
06-21-2011, 09:28 AM
How many bad NBA teams has the league had over the last 20 years?

How many 30/30 games have been had in the last 20 years?

ONE.

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 09:40 AM
How many bad NBA teams has the league had over the last 20 years?

How many 30/30 games have been had in the last 20 years?

ONE.

No the fact that the Timberwolves won just 17 games as opposed to 21 or 22 makes Love a horrible player, at least that's according to genius who started this thread.

WSU Tony
06-21-2011, 09:55 AM
Didn't Griffin have a losing record this year? Oh, and that's with Gordon, Kaman, Jordan, and Baron.
Love's 2nd best player.... is.... Luke Ridnour! Beasley is #3! But yeah, by all means, Love doesn't have an influence.

Can you imagine a rebounding machine like Love on a contender who is still able to hit the 3pt shot at a 45% clip?

Swashcuff
06-21-2011, 09:59 AM
I wonder how the OP feels about the 79-80 Pistons? They had a 16-66 record despite having players such as Bob Lanier, Bob McAdoo, John Long, Greg Kesler, Terry Tyler and Eric Money.

or the 96-97 Celts who featured Antonie Walker, David Wesley, Rick Fox, Dino Radja, Eric Williams and Todd day but only had a 15-67 record?

or the 00-01 Bulls led by Elton Brand, Ron Artest, Ron Mercer and Brad Miller to a 15-67 record?

or the 04-05 Hawks led by Antoine Walker, Al Harrington, Tony Delk, Josh Smith, Josh Childress and Tyron Lue to a 13-69 record?

Hell let's go back a couple years to the Kings with Kevin Martin, John Salmons, Andres Nocioni, Brad Miller, Jason Thompson, Beno Udrih and their 17-65 record.

ALL Those TEAMS had better supporting casts for the best players than Kevin Love had for his Timberwolves this past season. But GUESS WHAT they all had either worst or in the Kings case an equal record. But hey lets blame Love for their troubles as well.

I don't even know why I posted all this because it isn't going to change anything in Darell's mind he's still going to think Love didn't help his team and didn't have any impact whatsoever. And he OBVIOUSLY isn't going to even take the time to comprehend what I posted.