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View Full Version : Players to win 5+ Titles with multiple Finals MVPs



knightstemplar
06-18-2011, 03:23 PM
Michael Jordan - 6 Titles, 6 Finals MVPs
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 6 Titles, 2 Finals MVPs
Magic Johnson - 5 Titles, 3 Finals MVPs
Kobe Bryant - 5 Titles, 2 Finals MVPs

knightstemplar
06-18-2011, 03:25 PM
with atleast 4 championships, u can add
shaq and duncan

theheatles
06-18-2011, 03:28 PM
bill russell?

Chacarron
06-18-2011, 03:28 PM
Three of them Lakers. :D

knightstemplar
06-18-2011, 03:32 PM
bill russell?

bill russell, john havlecik, and george mikan would be on the list, but they didnt have finals mvps till 1969

but honestly, neither would win 5 in the modern era

Chronz
06-18-2011, 03:41 PM
Lame, shaq didn't have a dominant force to ride in his youth.

Duncan had to face the greatest duo ever to win.

knightstemplar
06-18-2011, 03:44 PM
Lame, shaq didn't have a dominant force to ride in his youth.

Duncan had to face the greatest duo ever to win.

kobe had a bunch of scrubs in his peak prime (2006 and 2007)

shaq atleast had kobe when he was in his peak

The Final Boss
06-18-2011, 03:52 PM
Magic... The Greatest to ever lace them up...

JordansBulls
06-18-2011, 04:43 PM
Magic... The Greatest to ever lace them up...

No he isnt.

Hawkeye15
06-18-2011, 04:57 PM
I see the goat, and three great players who were fortunate enough to have great roster support basically their entire career.

Not sure what the point is here, but look at the difference. MJ- 6/6.

The others? Great players who had GREAT rosters their whole career, and gave them the opportunities to reach the finals a ton of times. Shoot, 2 of them haven't won the MVP half the time they got the ring. Which is yet another reason why nobody currently playing can touch MJ

Swashcuff
06-18-2011, 04:57 PM
No he isnt.

He is one of the biggest Laker homers on this entire forum, don't even entertain him.

JasonJohnHorn
06-18-2011, 05:25 PM
I think Russell should count since they named the Finals MVP award after him ;-)

JasonJohnHorn
06-18-2011, 05:28 PM
I always felt bad for Pippen and Rodman for never winning a finals MVP. I mean, Jordan always out-performed Pippen, but I think there is an argument for Rodman to have won a finals MVP. his rebounding and defence was as dominant as Jordna's scoring and defence. Rebounding averages are often overlooked for higher scoring, though I think Jordan was obviously deserving of every MVP award he won, I just wish they could have spread the love around a little more.

It was nice in LA, Kareem, Magic and Worthy all got turns winning Finals MVP, same with Detroit and LA in the 2000's (we got to see Kobe and Shaq win Finals MVP awards).

kobe7ringbryant
06-18-2011, 05:36 PM
I always felt bad for Pippen and Rodman for never winning a finals MVP. I mean, Jordan always out-performed Pippen, but I think there is an argument for Rodman to have won a finals MVP. his rebounding and defence was as dominant as Jordna's scoring and defence. Rebounding averages are often overlooked for higher scoring, though I think Jordan was obviously deserving of every MVP award he won, I just wish they could have spread the love around a little more.

It was nice in LA, Kareem, Magic and Worthy all got turns winning Finals MVP, same with Detroit and LA in the 2000's (we got to see Kobe and Shaq win Finals MVP awards).

.........Shaq won all 3 MVP awards...........
Can't blame you though, you can't even spell defense.

JordansBulls
06-18-2011, 05:39 PM
I always felt bad for Pippen and Rodman for never winning a finals MVP. I mean, Jordan always out-performed Pippen, but I think there is an argument for Rodman to have won a finals MVP. his rebounding and defence was as dominant as Jordna's scoring and defence. Rebounding averages are often overlooked for higher scoring, though I think Jordan was obviously deserving of every MVP award he won, I just wish they could have spread the love around a little more.

It was nice in LA, Kareem, Magic and Worthy all got turns winning Finals MVP, same with Detroit and LA in the 2000's (we got to see Kobe and Shaq win Finals MVP awards).

Not when your PER and Win Shares are half what the player the finals mvp is getting in both the season and playoffs.

Chacarron
06-18-2011, 05:41 PM
.........Shaq won all 3 MVP awards...........
Can't blame you though, you can't even spell defense.

Defense is spelled defence in other countries if you didn't know.

Jewelz0376
06-18-2011, 05:55 PM
Here we go this is going to turn into a Kobe bash thread..i can feel it

desertrat218
06-18-2011, 05:59 PM
Lame, shaq didn't have a dominant force to ride in his youth.

Duncan had to face the greatest duo ever to win.

You must not be old enough to remember Penny Hardaway who was a genuine budding superstar before injuries shortened his career. Penny and Shaq took Orlando to the finals way back in the mid 90s.

LakersMaster24
06-18-2011, 06:04 PM
I see the goat, and three great players who were fortunate enough to have great roster support basically their entire career.

Not sure what the point is here, but look at the difference. MJ- 6/6.

The others? Great players who had GREAT rosters their whole career, and gave them the opportunities to reach the finals a ton of times. Shoot, 2 of them haven't won the MVP half the time they got the ring. Which is yet another reason why nobody currently playing can touch MJ

Rodman, Pippen, Kukoc, Kerr, etc...Thats a pretty good roster you know?

Chronz
06-18-2011, 06:11 PM
You must not be old enough to remember Penny Hardaway who was a genuine budding superstar before injuries shortened his career. Penny and Shaq took Orlando to the finals way back in the mid 90s.

You must not be old enough to accurately assess a players impact both statistically and in terms of intangibles. Penny doesn't compare to the beast kobe got to play with as a youngn

shep33
06-18-2011, 06:14 PM
I see the goat, and three great players who were fortunate enough to have great roster support basically their entire career.

Not sure what the point is here, but look at the difference. MJ- 6/6.

The others? Great players who had GREAT rosters their whole career, and gave them the opportunities to reach the finals a ton of times. Shoot, 2 of them haven't won the MVP half the time they got the ring. Which is yet another reason why nobody currently playing can touch MJ

I have to respectfully disagree. We are contradicting ourselves if we say MJ had no help.

If he had no help, how could Scottie Pippen lead a weaker supporting cast than what MJ had to within a few minutes of the ECF... Stephen A. Smith even argues that a number of bad calls in that series favored the Knicks and Chicago still almost took the series in 7. I'm not saying that's true, but just what he said.

Now, Scottie finished 3rd in MVP voting I believe. If he can lead what many delusional posters in here call a "pitiful supporting cast" to within a few points of beating the favorites in the East (Knicks) and likely propelling them to the Finals, then how can we say MJ had no help?

That season proves he did have help. Scottie led a less talented team, without the GOAT, to nearly the ECF. So we can't say that Scottie was overrated, and if we do, then that supporting cast must be phenomenal.

MJ is the GOAT, without question. However, in truth, whether we like it or not, he had help. People don't realize how good Kukoc, Rodman, Kerr, Paxon, Grant etc. were. They weren't superstars, but the Bulls had the best role players in the game.

Bookey
06-18-2011, 06:18 PM
You must not be old enough to accurately assess a players impact both statistically and in terms of intangibles. Penny doesn't compare to the beast kobe got to play with as a youngn

Don't act like Shaq didn't benefit from Kobe. They helped each other.

Chronz
06-18-2011, 06:22 PM
Don't act like Shaq didn't benefit from Kobe. They helped each other.
ok?

Jewelz0376
06-18-2011, 06:24 PM
wait for it.......wait for it.....

shep33
06-18-2011, 06:36 PM
People underestimate what Kobe did for the Lakers while Shaq was there.

-Kobe was the best defensive player on the team easily... the guy guarded the teams best player from 1-3.
-How many second options put up 29.4, 7.3 rpg, and 6.1 apg?
-How many 2nd options have games like 45 and 10 rpg, and 48 and 16 rpg

Kobe was ridiculous as a youngster. No way Shaq wins anything with the Lakers without Kobe.

The fact of the matter is that Shaq played with a 20 year old superstar who was probably the 2nd best player in the game behind the diesel.

gaughan333
06-18-2011, 06:41 PM
Kobe is awful. Happy? haha

Raph12
06-18-2011, 06:48 PM
Lame, shaq didn't have a dominant force to ride in his youth.

Duncan had to face the greatest duo ever to win.

This

ne3xchamps
06-18-2011, 06:55 PM
cool story bro.

ne3xchamps
06-18-2011, 06:56 PM
People underestimate what Kobe did for the Lakers while Shaq was there.

-Kobe was the best defensive player on the team easily... the guy guarded the teams best player from 1-3.
-How many second options put up 29.4, 7.3 rpg, and 6.1 apg?
-How many 2nd options have games like 45 and 10 rpg, and 48 and 16 rpg

Kobe was ridiculous as a youngster. No way Shaq wins anything with the Lakers without Kobe.

The fact of the matter is that Shaq played with a 20 year old superstar who was probably the 2nd best player in the game behind the diesel.

And kobe doesn't win without shaq in his prime. What's your point here?

210Don
06-18-2011, 07:12 PM
one more timmy!

shep33
06-18-2011, 07:14 PM
And kobe doesn't win without shaq in his prime. What's your point here?

My point is both were great, and helped each other win titles. I was trying to relate it to my post on how every great player with championships has often had great teammates. Even MJ.

RaidersLakers24
06-18-2011, 07:26 PM
I'm serious people think MJ is god or something but no without those players he had he doesn't win **** either

Avenged
06-18-2011, 07:33 PM
I see the goat, and three great players who were fortunate enough to have great roster support basically their entire career.

Not sure what the point is here, but look at the difference. MJ- 6/6.

The others? Great players who had GREAT rosters their whole career, and gave them the opportunities to reach the finals a ton of times. Shoot, 2 of them haven't won the MVP half the time they got the ring. Which is yet another reason why nobody currently playing can touch MJ

Are you saying MJ had no help? Because I see 4 players who were fortunate enough to have a great roster.

I pretty much agree with everything else except that 1st statement.

coryd238
06-18-2011, 07:37 PM
Not when your PER and Win Shares are half what the player the finals mvp is getting in both the season and playoffs.

There you go with your per and win share **** again, bottom line is people were scared of Rodman. No one wanted to go up against him, and that's something stats don't show.

JNA17
06-18-2011, 07:38 PM
I'm serious people think MJ is god or something but no without those players he had he doesn't win **** either

and he didn't win anything without those players either. Instead, he would get his *** kicked by the Celtics and Pistons every year and never beat them either until both Isiah and Bird retired and when Magic was past his prime.

He's not as god as everyone thinks he is.

desertrat218
06-18-2011, 07:39 PM
You must not be old enough to accurately assess a players impact both statistically and in terms of intangibles. Penny doesn't compare to the beast kobe got to play with as a youngn

Your sentence makes no sense. It's obvious you don't remember how good Penny was before his injuries. He was All-NBA twice, and a 4 time all-star. FYI, only 5 guys a year make the All-NBA team. Look him up and learn about him, he was great.

Kevj77
06-18-2011, 08:03 PM
I see the goat, and three great players who were fortunate enough to have great roster support basically their entire career.

Not sure what the point is here, but look at the difference. MJ- 6/6.

The others? Great players who had GREAT rosters their whole career, and gave them the opportunities to reach the finals a ton of times. Shoot, 2 of them haven't won the MVP half the time they got the ring. Which is yet another reason why nobody currently playing can touch MJI'm not disputing that MJ was the GOAT, but why do people always act like he wasn't on stacked teams? At least on the second 3-peat team he played with two HOFers, a 6th man of the year, a great shooter in Kerr and throw in Ron Harper just as a cherry on top. That Bulls team was as stacked as any Lakers or Celtics team you can name.

Chronz
06-18-2011, 08:21 PM
Your sentence makes no sense. It's obvious you don't remember how good Penny was before his injuries. He was All-NBA twice, and a 4 time all-star. FYI, only 5 guys a year make the All-NBA team. Look him up and learn about him, he was great.
It makes perfect sense for anyone with any semblance of reading comprehension, ill stand by my initial statement despite your compelling argument.

desertrat218
06-18-2011, 08:33 PM
It makes perfect sense for anyone with any semblance of reading comprehension, ill stand by my initial statement despite your compelling argument.

As to your initial statement about my age, that wasn't worth responding to until you brought it up a 2nd time. Let's just put it like this, I still vividly remember watching Larry Bird of Indiana State lose to Magic Johnson and Michigan State in the NCAA Title game. I barely remember watching the Lakers beat the Knicks in the NBA Finals, I was 8 years old at the time. (look up the year if that matchup doesn't ring a bell in your memory) I am guessing you would agree that stats don't tell the whole story of a players impact, Dennis Rodman would be proof of that.

dodie53
06-18-2011, 08:43 PM
I always felt bad for Pippen and Rodman for never winning a finals MVP. I mean, Jordan always out-performed Pippen, but I think there is an argument for Rodman to have won a finals MVP. his rebounding and defence was as dominant as Jordna's scoring and defence. Rebounding averages are often overlooked for higher scoring, though I think Jordan was obviously deserving of every MVP award he won, I just wish they could have spread the love around a little more.

).

if rodman could have scored more points
tsk.

Chronz
06-18-2011, 10:12 PM
As to your initial statement about my age, that wasn't worth responding to until you brought it up a 2nd time. Let's just put it like this, I still vividly remember watching Larry Bird of Indiana State lose to Magic Johnson and Michigan State in the NCAA Title game. I barely remember watching the Lakers beat the Knicks in the NBA Finals, I was 8 years old at the time. (look up the year if that matchup doesn't ring a bell in your memory) I am guessing you would agree that stats don't tell the whole story of a players impact, Dennis Rodman would be proof of that.

Lol what do you mean brought it up a second time? I mentioned your youth to mock your feeble attempt of an insult, once, it was never mentioned again because frankly arguments that consist of "you obviously didn't watch him" (because I have a differing opinion) isn't worth keeping up. The truth of my initial stance stands because you see Kobe got to play with the MVP of the league on route to 3 of those chips, thats abit of context this arbitrary cut off doesn't tell you. No matter how good you think penny was, he wasnt as good as the beast kobe got as a youngster. There gos that line again, hopefully this time it makes more sense to you.


As for your statistical remark, no one uses them as an end all solution, but only those who cannot utilize them will steer away from the subject on the grounds that they don't do all the thinking for you.

desertrat218
06-18-2011, 10:35 PM
Lol what do you mean brought it up a second time? I mentioned your youth to mock your feeble attempt of an insult, once, it was never mentioned again because frankly arguments that consist of "you obviously didn't watch him" (because I have a differing opinion) isn't worth keeping up. The truth of my initial stance stands because you see Kobe got to play with the MVP of the league on route to 3 of those chips, thats abit of context this arbitrary cut off doesn't tell you. No matter how good you think penny was, he wasnt as good as the beast kobe got as a youngster. There gos that line again, hopefully this time it makes more sense to you.


As for your statistical remark, no one uses them as an end all solution, but only those who cannot utilize them will steer away from the subject on the grounds that they don't do all the thinking for you.

No son, you told me "You must not be old enough to accurately assess a players impact both statistically and in terms of intangibles", that is a direct quote. Someone out there didn't realize that Shaq actually had a superstar teammate long before he played for the Lakers. Grant Hill was pretty good too.

Lakerhead4ever
06-18-2011, 10:36 PM
I see the goat, and three great players who were fortunate enough to have great roster support basically their entire career.

Not sure what the point is here, but look at the difference. MJ- 6/6.

The others? Great players who had GREAT rosters their whole career, and gave them the opportunities to reach the finals a ton of times. Shoot, 2 of them haven't won the MVP half the time they got the ring. Which is yet another reason why nobody currently playing can touch MJ

here he goes...

knightstemplar
06-18-2011, 11:18 PM
And kobe doesn't win without shaq in his prime. What's your point here?

kobe won 2 without shaq, in his later stage of his prime (had scrubs in his peak prime)

knightstemplar
06-18-2011, 11:20 PM
I'm serious people think MJ is god or something but no without those players he had he doesn't win **** either

lol i know

when jordan retired, the bulls won 55 games without him!
by himself my ***** he had a stacked team

RaidersLakers24
06-18-2011, 11:35 PM
lol i know

when jordan retired, the bulls won 55 games without him!
by himself my ***** he had a stacked team

Seriously and if you go to the comparisons forum it says who had more help Kobe or jordan and the hate for kobe is so bad that everyone actually says Kobe had more help I mean it was Kobe and shaq then everyone else

Bulls it was Jordan,pippen,rodman,Harper all all-stars at 1 point!
Kerr who is top 5 3pt shooter ever
And don't forget kukoc etc.

JordansBulls
06-18-2011, 11:51 PM
I'm not disputing that MJ was the GOAT, but why do people always act like he wasn't on stacked teams? At least on the second 3-peat team he played with two HOFers, a 6th man of the year, a great shooter in Kerr and throw in Ron Harper just as a cherry on top. That Bulls team was as stacked as any Lakers or Celtics team you can name.

Rodman didnt make the allstar team either year with the bulls and it can be said he is only in the hall because of the Bulls. Yes MJ had help there is no doubt about it, but he never had guys on the team that won league and or finals MVP nor had better stats.

knightstemplar
06-18-2011, 11:55 PM
Rodman didnt make the allstar team either year with the bulls and it can be said he is only in the hall because of the Bulls. Yes MJ had help there is no doubt about it, but he never had guys on the team that won league and or finals MVP nor had better stats.

what about in 94 without him they won 55 games

and check rodmans rebounding numbers, thats why hes in the HOF
seasons of like 16 or 17 a game

papipapsmanny
06-19-2011, 12:05 AM
what about in 94 without him they won 55 games

and check rodmans rebounding numbers, thats why hes in the HOF
seasons of like 16 or 17 a game


they also won the ship 3 years in a row, the mj left, and they didn't win, then he came back and won 3 more

If the point your trying to make is that kobe is better than MJ, then just stop, because your wrong.

If your point is jordan had a good team, then yea ur right

lakersrock
06-19-2011, 12:07 AM
Lame, shaq didn't have a dominant force to ride in his youth.

That's beyond hysterical.

If you consider Kobe #2 for the 00, 01 and 02 Finals, he averaged....

00 - 22.5 PPG / 6.3 RPG / 4.9 APG / 1.6 SPG / 0.9 BPG - Best wing defender and ran the offense
01 - 28.5 PPG / 5.9 RPG / 5.0 APG / 1.7 SPG / 0.6 BPG - Best wing defender and ran the offense
02 - 25.2 PPG / 5.5 RPG / 5.5 APG / 1.5 SPG / 0.4 BPG - Best wing defender and ran the offense

The last three Finals trips for LA had Pau as the #2.....

08 - 18.8 PPG / 7.8 RPG / 3.5 APG / 0.5 SPG / 1.6 BPG - Best post defender
09 - 18.9 PPG / 9.6 RPG / 3.5 APG / 0.6 SPG / 1.0 BPG - Not best post defender
10 - 18.3 PPG / 11.3 RPG / 3.4 APG / 0.6 SPG / 1.7 BPG - Not best post defender

You seriously gonna do this?

Throw in the fact Shaq had good Fisher, Horry, Fox, Harper, etc. and Kobe had Odom, decent Fisher, Sasha, Farmar, etc.

Jewelz0376
06-19-2011, 12:52 AM
lol here we go again

desertrat218
06-19-2011, 12:52 AM
Seriously and if you go to the comparisons forum it says who had more help Kobe or jordan and the hate for kobe is so bad that everyone actually says Kobe had more help I mean it was Kobe and shaq then everyone else

Bulls it was Jordan,pippen,rodman,Harper all all-stars at 1 point!
Kerr who is top 5 3pt shooter ever
And don't forget kukoc etc.

Craig Hodges had a pretty sweet stroke also.

Kevj77
06-19-2011, 01:02 AM
what about in 94 without him they won 55 games

and check rodmans rebounding numbers, thats why hes in the HOF
seasons of like 16 or 17 a gameNot to mention his defense Rodman was a 2x DPOY and his hustle the worm went after every lose ball. Rodman was a perfect fit for the Bulls a player that got almost all his points from offensive boards, was a rebounding machine and a great defender. He is a HOFer because of that.

The Bulls were stacked. Rodman, Pippen and the Bulls role players are seriously underrated because of the deifying of Jordan.

JordansBulls
06-19-2011, 01:05 AM
what about in 94 without him they won 55 games

and check rodmans rebounding numbers, thats why hes in the HOF
seasons of like 16 or 17 a game

What about it?

The Bulls team from 1993 underachieved during the regular season. They went 1-3 in those 4 games without Jordan. They had a 6.19 SRS, still the 4th best in the league. The 2nd best team on offense and the 7th best team on defense. Well, yes, in the end they "only" won 57 games in the regular season. Teams like that usually win 60+ games.

With Pippen and Grant at their absolute prime the Bulls team overachieved in 1994. Their SRS of 2.87 is one of the weakest All-Time in the NBA for teams that winning around 67% of their games. Those kind of teams have an average SRS of 4.46. The Bulls were able to win a couple of more close games than they should. Instead of winning 50 games, they won 55 with an much improved FC.


In fact it is a testament to how good he was. He trained with those guys and as a result they got better. MJ wasn't selfish with his abilities he always tried to help others out. Even if you remember back when MJ was coming back BJ mentions that he and MJ started to guard one another in practice and saying let's see if you remember how to guard me. It went from a shooting contest to a one on one. MJ got the best out of the guys he played with and that is why they were soo confident and were able to improve. Whereas other guys it is harder to improve with them on the team. How much are you going to improve with a dominant center? He really isn't going to teach you much other than get you open shots and spread the floor from you as much as a guy who plays on the perimeter will.




An interesting argument some have raised in response is that as great as Jordan was, his supporting cast was good enough that he didn't really need to "call for help" -- the Bulls actually won 55 games the year after he retired. Think about that: Chicago won 57 games in 1993, lost the greatest player ever (in the middle of his prime), and they declined by all of two wins the following season.

How was that possible?


First, here are the two rosters side-by-side (bold = played for both teams):

1993 Bulls 1994 Bulls
Player Age G MP Player Age G MP
Scottie Pippen 27 81 3123 B.J. Armstrong 26 82 2770
Michael Jordan 29 78 3067 Scottie Pippen 28 72 2759
Horace Grant 27 77 2745 Horace Grant 28 70 2570
B.J. Armstrong 25 82 2492 Steve Kerr 28 82 2036
Scott Williams 24 71 1369 Pete Myers 30 82 2030
Bill Cartwright 35 63 1253 Toni Kukoc 25 75 1808
Stacey King 26 76 1059 Bill Wennington 30 76 1371
John Paxson 32 59 1030 Bill Cartwright 36 42 780
Rodney McCray 31 64 1019 Corie Blount 25 67 690
Will Perdue 27 72 998 Scott Williams 25 38 638
Trent Tucker 33 69 909 Stacey King 27 31 537
Darrell Walker 31 28 367 Luc Longley 25 27 513
Corey Williams 22 35 242 Jo Jo English 23 36 419
Ed Nealy 32 11 79 Will Perdue 28 43 397
Joe Courtney 23 5 34 John Paxson 33 27 343
Jo Jo English 22 6 31 Dave Johnson 23 17 119
Ricky Blanton 26 2 13


56.7% of the 1994 Bulls' minutes were filled by players who had been on their roster in '93 (15.5% were lost when Jordan departed). Of the remaining playing time, 92.6% was filled by five new players -- Steve Kerr, Pete Myers, Toni Kukoc, Bill Wennington, and Corie Blount. Losing MJ and adding those 5 to a 57-win team doesn't exactly seem like a recipe for maintaining the status quo, but there are several explanations for the Bulls' surprising success without Jordan:

One major reason for the Bulls' apparent lack of decline was simply luck. In 1993, Chicago's pythagorean record was 58-24 and they only won 57 games, but in 1994 their luck reversed and then some -- they won 55 despite a pythagorean record of 50-32. Further reinforcing this point is the fact that their SRS fell from +6.19 (4th in the league) in 1993 to +2.87 (11th) in 1994. They may have won only 2 fewer games in '94, but in reality the drop-off in performance was more like 8-9 wins.



1993 Bulls 1994 Bulls
Player Age G MP DRtg DPA Player Age G MP DRtg DPA
Scottie Pippen 27 81 3123 103.7 1.22 B.J. Armstrong 26 82 2770 107.0 -1.20
Michael Jordan 29 78 3067 102.4 0.33 Scottie Pippen 28 72 2759 96.9 2.90
Horace Grant 27 77 2745 105.3 1.72 Horace Grant 28 70 2570 101.0 2.10
B.J. Armstrong 25 82 2492 110.9 -1.54 Steve Kerr 28 82 2036 106.2 -0.81
Scott Williams 24 71 1369 101.3 3.98 Pete Myers 30 82 2030 105.1 0.11
Bill Cartwright 35 63 1253 109.1 -0.48 Toni Kukoc 25 75 1808 102.4 -0.19
Stacey King 26 76 1059 108.5 -1.11 Bill Wennington 30 76 1371 101.2 1.50
John Paxson 32 59 1030 110.1 -0.89 Bill Cartwright 36 42 780 105.3 -0.22
Rodney McCray 31 64 1019 109.9 -0.81 Corie Blount 25 67 690 100.4 2.28
Will Perdue 27 72 998 104.2 1.94 Scott Williams 25 38 638 101.1 1.87
Trent Tucker 33 69 909 110.3 -2.11 Stacey King 27 31 537 101.7 0.95
Darrell Walker 31 28 367 106.4 1.15 Luc Longley 25 27 513 101.0 2.13
Corey Williams 22 35 242 111.6 -3.02 Jo Jo English 23 36 419 105.5 -0.58
Ed Nealy 32 11 79 105.4 -0.06 Will Perdue 28 43 397 100.6 1.30
Joe Courtney 23 5 34 107.4 0.99 John Paxson 33 27 343 107.8 -1.30
Jo Jo English 22 6 31 97.3 4.06 Dave Johnson 23 17 119 106.3 -3.14
Ricky Blanton 26 2 13 96.3 0.35


Although mediocre defender B.J. Armstrong led the team in minutes, Chicago's D improved in large part because they received outstanding performances from Pippen & Grant, each of whom earned Defensive Player of the Year consideration. Pippen had been known as a tremendous defender for years, but in 1994 he was the best perimeter defender in the NBA, and his 96.9 DRtg was one of the best ever by a player 6'8" or shorter. Also, not to be forgotten was Pete Myers' ability to vaguely approximate Jordan's defense at SG, Scott Williams' strong post D, better play from Stacey King, and solid interior performances from Wennington, Blount, and Longley (a major improvement over what Cartwright & King delivered in '93).

Despite the plaudits Jordan received for his D, defense remains largely a team activity, so it makes sense that this was the area in which Chicago did the best job of surviving MJ's retirement. With one of the greatest coaches ever, one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever, and a supporting cast of mostly solid defensive players (especially on the defensive glass), it should not have come as a surprise that the Bulls cobbled together a defense that was largely unfazed by the loss of Jordan. This is also good news for Cleveland, who had the NBA's 7th-best D in 2010 and might expect to retain most of that in 2011 despite losing James, a 1st-Team All-Defender.

The Bulls' offense weakened, but didn't totally collapse. There's no question that Chicago's offense suffered a major setback with Jordan's departure -- they fell from 112.9 pts/100 (4.9 better than average, 2nd in the league) in 1993 to 106.1 (0.2 worse than avg., 14th) in 1994 -- but Pippen proved himself a capable high-usage #1 option, and Armstrong/Grant/Kerr were very efficient complimentary players. You can't deny that the Bulls' offense without Jordan was pretty ordinary in '94, but the loss was not catastrophic like it would be in '99, the second time MJ retired.
So there you have it -- thanks to some strong coaching, defensive cohesion, a passable offense, and a fair amount of luck, the 1994 Bulls finished their first Jordan-less season with only two fewer wins than they had in 1993 with His Airness.

JordansBulls
06-19-2011, 01:08 AM
and he didn't win anything without those players either. Instead, he would get his *** kicked by the Celtics and Pistons every year and never beat them either until both Isiah and Bird retired and when Magic was past his prime.

He's not as god as everyone thinks he is.

Except he dominated every and any player. MJ was never outscored in any playoff series in his career.

The Bulls won in 1998 with MJ being 35, Pippen 32, Rodman 37, and Harper 34. The only significant players that were under 30 were Kukoc and Longley at 29 years old.So age explains only part of their decline.

How old were Detroit's core players and did their performance decline? If so, was it due to age?

Here are the ages of all their core players:

Dumars: 27
Thomas: 29
Aguirre: 31
Edwards: 35
Johnson: 34
Laimbeer: 33
Rodman: 29
Salley: 26

Isn't the prime of a basketball player roughly between ages 27-30? If so, their two best players were within that range and their third leading scorer was just outside it at 31. Rodman was in his prime as well, Salley was about to enter it. Only Laimbeer, Edwards, and Johnson were truly old.

Thomas 1988: 19.5/8.4/46%
Thomas 1989: 18.2/8.3/46%
Thomas 1990: 18.4/9.4/44%
Thomas 1991: 16.2/9.3/44%

In the case of Thomas there was a decline in scoring from the championship years, although his assists were actually higher than in his first title year and his field goal percentage was the same as in 1990. However, was this due to age?

Thomas 1992: 18.5/7.2/45%

His good 1992 campaign suggests his 1991 decline was due to injuries. He made every all-star team in the 90's except for his final season. He declined further in 1993 but 1994 is when he ceased being an all-star.

Dumars 1988: 14.2/47%
Dumars 1989: 17.2/50%
Dumars 1990: 17.8/48%
Dumars 1991: 20.4/48%

Dumars was actually improving during this period, which is to be expected given his age. His best season was 1993 when he was 29 years old. Dumars made the all-star team as late as 1997 when he was 33.

Aguirre 1989: 15.5/48% (his numbers in Detroit only)
Aguirre 1990: 14.1/49%
Aguirre 1991: 14.2/46%

Aguirre showed no decline from 1990.

Laimbeer 1988: 13.5/10/49%
Laimbeer 1989: 14/10/50%
Laimbeer 1990: 12/10/48%
Laimbeer 1991: 11/9/48%


Rodman 1988: 12/12/56%
Rodman 1989: 9/9/60%
Rodman 1990: 9/10/58%
Rodman 1991: 8/13/58%

Rodman was a player on the upswing. In 1992 he would shoot up to averaging 19 rebounds a game along with 10 points. He would lead the league in rebounding for the next seven years.

Johnson 1988: 12/44%
Johnson 1989: 14/46%
Johnson 1990: 10/43%
Johnson 1991: 12/43%

Johnson was obviously past his prime but he was actually better in 1991 than in 1990.

So Dumars, Rodman were improving players during this time. Laimbeer and Johnson were declining but Johnson in 1991 was better than in 1990. Isiah Thomas had a down year in 1991 but he rebounded in 1992.

Hawkeye15
06-19-2011, 01:11 AM
Rodman, Pippen, Kukoc, Kerr, etc...Thats a pretty good roster you know?

your point?

Hawkeye15
06-19-2011, 01:13 AM
I have to respectfully disagree. We are contradicting ourselves if we say MJ had no help.

If he had no help, how could Scottie Pippen lead a weaker supporting cast than what MJ had to within a few minutes of the ECF... Stephen A. Smith even argues that a number of bad calls in that series favored the Knicks and Chicago still almost took the series in 7. I'm not saying that's true, but just what he said.

Now, Scottie finished 3rd in MVP voting I believe. If he can lead what many delusional posters in here call a "pitiful supporting cast" to within a few points of beating the favorites in the East (Knicks) and likely propelling them to the Finals, then how can we say MJ had no help?

That season proves he did have help. Scottie led a less talented team, without the GOAT, to nearly the ECF. So we can't say that Scottie was overrated, and if we do, then that supporting cast must be phenomenal.

MJ is the GOAT, without question. However, in truth, whether we like it or not, he had help. People don't realize how good Kukoc, Rodman, Kerr, Paxon, Grant etc. were. They weren't superstars, but the Bulls had the best role players in the game.

whoa whoa when did I say MJ had no help?? I am saying he simply stood above any roster support he had as the clear #1.

Hawkeye15
06-19-2011, 01:19 AM
Are you saying MJ had no help? Because I see 4 players who were fortunate enough to have a great roster.

I pretty much agree with everything else except that 1st statement.

Dude, you have hopefully read my countless posts on the help MJ had. But my point was that he simply stood above his roster as the #1 each and every time. Nothing else. I apologize for implying otherwise.

sventhedog
06-19-2011, 01:23 AM
i was going to say lebron but i realized counting them doesn't really count as championships. lol

shep33
06-19-2011, 01:29 AM
whoa whoa when did I say MJ had no help?? I am saying he simply stood above any roster support he had as the clear #1.

Okay, that's my bad then, and I apologize. I just kinda took it as MJ did it with less/no help. My bad Hawkeye.

Chronz
06-19-2011, 01:36 AM
No son, you told me "You must not be old enough to accurately assess a players impact both statistically and in terms of intangibles", that is a direct quote. Someone out there didn't realize that Shaq actually had a superstar teammate long before he played for the Lakers. Grant Hill was pretty good too.

I can see your still struggling with reading comprehension, I never denied bringing up your youth, but it was only mentioned ONCE in RESPONSE to your childish attempt at an insult.

LMFAO, Grant Hill? What your going to say Hill in phoenix was a star or have you gone senile already?

Someone in here still doesn't understand how to debate, AGAIN, no matter how good u think so and so was, the point I made in my op remains true.

Chronz
06-19-2011, 01:40 AM
Seriously and if you go to the comparisons forum it says who had more help Kobe or jordan and the hate for kobe is so bad that everyone actually says Kobe had more help I mean it was Kobe and shaq then everyone else

Bulls it was Jordan,pippen,rodman,Harper all all-stars at 1 point!
Kerr who is top 5 3pt shooter ever
And don't forget kukoc etc.

Lol at your sig, how are you not banned yet? I would get skewered if I were flaming a quality poster like that

Chronz
06-19-2011, 01:43 AM
That's beyond hysterical.

If you consider Kobe #2 for the 00, 01 and 02 Finals, he averaged....

00 - 22.5 PPG / 6.3 RPG / 4.9 APG / 1.6 SPG / 0.9 BPG - Best wing defender and ran the offense
01 - 28.5 PPG / 5.9 RPG / 5.0 APG / 1.7 SPG / 0.6 BPG - Best wing defender and ran the offense
02 - 25.2 PPG / 5.5 RPG / 5.5 APG / 1.5 SPG / 0.4 BPG - Best wing defender and ran the offense

The last three Finals trips for LA had Pau as the #2.....

08 - 18.8 PPG / 7.8 RPG / 3.5 APG / 0.5 SPG / 1.6 BPG - Best post defender
09 - 18.9 PPG / 9.6 RPG / 3.5 APG / 0.6 SPG / 1.0 BPG - Not best post defender
10 - 18.3 PPG / 11.3 RPG / 3.4 APG / 0.6 SPG / 1.7 BPG - Not best post defender

You seriously gonna do this?

Throw in the fact Shaq had good Fisher, Horry, Fox, Harper, etc. and Kobe had Odom, decent Fisher, Sasha, Farmar, etc.
Yes those are the per game averages of 2 players. I never denied this to be true, in fact I'm pretty sure I know the #s better than 98% of the posters here.

GREATNESS ONE
06-19-2011, 01:44 AM
LOL at ALL THE HATE in a thread about some of the greatest players this game has ever seen. Fact of the matter is all these players have been Great in their respected Era.

Just enjoy the game and when you're witnessing GREATNESS.

desertrat218
06-19-2011, 01:51 AM
whoa whoa when did I say MJ had no help?? I am saying he simply stood above any roster support he had as the clear #1.

You can thank Phil for establishing that. Who took all the important shots? You know Pippen probably wanted to take more of them but if he did Phil would have benched him until he fell in line. You can see the same situation with the Lakers and Kobe, you know Kobe is going to take that critical shot unless he is double teamed and then he will find the open man. Same thing Jordan did.

C-Style
06-19-2011, 04:41 AM
Michael Jordan - 6 Titles, 6 Finals MVPs
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 6 Titles, 2 Finals MVPs
Magic Johnson - 5 Titles, 3 Finals MVPs
Kobe Bryant - 5 Titles, 2 Finals MVPs

I'm Hoping Kobe ends with 7 Titles, 4 Finals MVPs