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View Full Version : #5 PG In The NBA? (Voume IV)



Mile High Champ
06-16-2011, 09:31 AM
Hey guys, Some of you may remember that for the last three years I have conducted a poll at the end of the season that had PSD users vote for the top 10 players at each position. Its is now that time to vote! I would like to start this up once more considering the NBA season is now over and we can get to this discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 3 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best

Here is a comparison of the 6 players in the poll from last season.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nashst01&y1=2011&p2=westbru01&y2=2011&p3=rondora01&y3=2011&p4=kiddja01&y4=2011&p5=parketo01&y5=2011&p6=curryst01&y6=2011

2011 Top 10 PG RANKINGS

1) Chris Paul
2) Derrick Rose
3) Deron Williams
4) Russell Westbrook
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)


2010 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Deron Williams
2) Chris Paul
3) Steve Nash
4) Rajon Rondo
5) Derrick Rose
6) Chauncey Billups
7) Russel Westbrook
8) Tony Parker
9) Jason Kidd
10) Tyreke Evans

2009 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Deron Williams
3) Chauncey Billups
4) Tony Parker
5) Steve Nash
6) Derrick Rose
7) Devin Harris
8) Rajon Rondo
9) Jose Calderon
10) Jason Kidd

2008 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Steve Nash
3) Deron Williams
4) Baron Davis
5) Tony Parker
6) Jason Kidd
7) Chauncey Billups
8) Gilbert Arenas
9) Jose Calderon
10) Andre Miller

Tarheels23
06-16-2011, 09:32 AM
Rondoooooooo

Mile High Champ
06-16-2011, 09:39 AM
I liked Nash last round but I am fine with Westbrook going 4. That being said, No way Rondo has Nash beat here.

Sportfan
06-16-2011, 09:40 AM
Rondo should be ahead of Westy really.


Defitantly Rondo here, Nash proved this year he's a product of the system

DLeeicious
06-16-2011, 09:48 AM
Rondo should be ahead of Westy really.


Defitantly Rondo here, Nash proved this year he's a product of the system

How do you have 19000 posts with Bulls sig and avatar and I've never seen you post?

I think for next season only it's pretty close between Rondo and Nash. I think Nash is probably better overall but Rondo is better for his team so I guess I'll take Nash.

ChitownSports16
06-16-2011, 09:50 AM
Nanananashhhhh!

Mile High Champ
06-16-2011, 09:59 AM
Rondo should be ahead of Westy really.


Defitantly Rondo here, Nash proved this year he's a product of the system

Rondo regressed a lot this past season. How on earth is he better than Westbrook or Nash?

Pierzynski4Prez
06-16-2011, 10:05 AM
Very close but I'd still go with Nash.

Hustlenomics
06-16-2011, 10:07 AM
no way Rondo isn't a top 5 point guard

Pietro1023
06-16-2011, 10:12 AM
It is a shame Nash has dropped this far. Gotta slot him at #5 guys

jtsunami
06-16-2011, 10:12 AM
Rondo is not a top 5 PG. If you think Nash is a product of his system, how can you say Rondo isn't?

Put Rondo on a team without a bunch of good scorers and see what happens. He is really good in Boston because he does what they need him to do, even though it'd be a big help if he worked on his shooting.

That said, the way he played this past year definitely tells me he's not above Nash.

jtsunami
06-16-2011, 10:13 AM
Also, why isn't Ty Lawson on this list?

YoungOne
06-16-2011, 10:17 AM
rondo behind westbrook and nash is a ********ing joke

JamaicanYouth
06-16-2011, 10:21 AM
rondo behind westbrook and nash is a ********ing joke

Angry Celtic fan lol westbrook and nash are better than rondo

Master Mind
06-16-2011, 10:29 AM
Rondo!

jp611
06-16-2011, 10:30 AM
Rondo is definitely not a top 5 PG, he can be, he really needs to get a shot, his defense is highly overrated and he really regressed this year, he will likely improve next year but as of right now it has to be Nash, Nash was amazing again this year with next to nothing on his team.

THE GIPPER
06-16-2011, 10:31 AM
Also, why isn't Ty Lawson on this list?

this. felton is on it and lawson is clearly better

jtsunami
06-16-2011, 10:32 AM
Nash on the Celtics :drool:

That'd be the most efficient offense in the league.

sixer04fan
06-16-2011, 10:32 AM
Seriously, no homerism. The vast majority of people that are getting so pissed about Nash being ahead of Rondo are people with Celtics avatars or sigs. Just like the majority of people that were so passionately defending Rose over Deron (which I think is wrong, btw) were people with Bulls avatars or sigs.

Obviously there are more Bulls fans on this site than Jazz/Nets fans, which is why Rose won that match up. And there are obviously more Celtics fans than Suns fans on this site... If Nash is still beating Rondo despite that, that should tell you something...

Nash > Rondo

I also believe if you swapped Nash for Rondo on the Celtics this year they definitely would have been better. That should tell you something as well... And I'm not knocking Rondo, he is a stud. But he is the 6th best PG in the league. That's not a bad thing, there just happen to be 6 amazing PGs in the league.

jp611
06-16-2011, 10:34 AM
Seriously, no homerism. The vast majority of people that are getting so pissed about Nash being ahead of Rondo are people with Celtics avatars or sigs. Just like the majority of people that were so passionately defending Rose over Deron (which I think is wrong, btw) were people with Bulls avatars or sigs.

Obviously there are more Bulls fans on this site than Jazz/Nets fans, which is why Rose won that match up. And there are obviously more Celtics fans than Suns fans on this site... If Nash is still beating Rondo despite that, that should tell you something...

Nash > Rondo

I also believe if you swapped Nash for Rondo on the Celtics this year they definitely would have been better. That should tell you something as well...

Or maybe because Rose is better than Williams, CP3 was affected last year during voting because of his injury-riddled season, same thing happened with D-Will this year

But we're talking about Nash vs. Rondo here, get over it

sixer04fan
06-16-2011, 10:40 AM
Thanks jpro, I was using the Rose/Williams as an example of what I think is happening now for this vote. Obviously homerism affects these votes whether you like it or not, and there is no denying that. I clearly discussed the Nash/Rondo comparison as well... Did you even read the rest of my post? Are you cool for calling me out on an anonymous forum site? Do I give a ****? The answer to all of these questions is no.

Khalifa21
06-16-2011, 10:42 AM
Steve Nash

Sky Hook
06-16-2011, 10:47 AM
Rondo is definitely not a top 5 PG, he can be, he really needs to get a shot, his defense is highly overrated and he really regressed this year, he will likely improve next year but as of right now it has to be Nash, Nash was amazing again this year with next to nothing on his team.

Nash has never defended in his career.

Rondo is the #5 PG for me.

haggis
06-16-2011, 10:52 AM
Nash has never defended in his career.

Rondo is the #5 PG for me.

Rondo can't shoot and is a liability at the end of close games because he can't make a free throw.

Nash.

Sportfan
06-16-2011, 11:09 AM
Rondo regressed a lot this past season. How on earth is he better than Westbrook or Nash?
Nash plays terrible defense and Westbrook turns it over way too much. Rondo isn't a good scorer, but he can penetrate the hoop well with his quickness to go along with top notch defensive and passing skills.

Avenged
06-16-2011, 11:11 AM
Definitely Nash.

jp611
06-16-2011, 11:14 AM
Nash plays terrible defense and Westbrook turns it over way too much. Rondo isn't a good scorer, but he can penetrate the hoop well with his quickness to go along with top notch defensive and passing skills.

Nash does everything great except play defense, he is a better passer, better shooter, amazing FT shooter compared to Rondo's awful FT shooting, Nash can shoot 3's, if you put Nash on that Celtics team they are definitely better

mRc08
06-16-2011, 11:21 AM
THis is a tough one, i gotta take rondo. I realize that he plays with three good/great players, but his athletic ability and passing makes him truely fun to watch. While I hate not putting Nash in the top 5, unfortunately i think its come to that

douglas
06-16-2011, 11:30 AM
At this point, I'd go with Canadian Jesus, Steve Nash

Cubs Win
06-16-2011, 11:33 AM
I'm gonna pick the one that can shoot. Nash.

ManningToTyree
06-16-2011, 11:48 AM
I would of had Rondo at 4 so I got him here again. Nothing Wrong with choosing Nash here though

Swashcuff
06-16-2011, 11:50 AM
I'll take Nash here by the very slightest of margins. I mean look at that team he took to 40 wins in the West. Had he played for a team such as the Celts they could've have possibly won it all.

Rondo regressed too much during the course of the season to merit me choosing him over Nash though he D is WORLDS better than Nash his jump shot leaves much to be desired.

wmudford
06-16-2011, 11:55 AM
I know im a nash fan but trying to look past that i just don't see how rondo is better.

If you put Nash in Boston they are likely better.

If you put Rondo in PHX they WILL be worse.

For now Nash>Rondo likely for 1 more year

Swashcuff
06-16-2011, 12:00 PM
I know im a nash fan but trying to look past that i just don't see how rondo is better.

If you put Nash in Boston they are likely better.

If you put Rondo in PHX they WILL be worse.

For now Nash>Rondo likely for 1 more year

Rondo is better MUCH better defensively, quicker and a better rebounder. That's all, quite frankly IMO it is not enough to put him ahead of Nash at this moment.

Baller1
06-16-2011, 12:14 PM
5. Nash
6. Rondo
7. Parker
8. Curry
9. Holiday

ManRam
06-16-2011, 12:18 PM
I voted Nash. Still way too elite on offense right now. Most efficient shooting PG perhaps ever to play the game, and still an all-time great passer.

Glad to see no one besides Rondo and Nash have received a vote. People are voting with some sense :clap:

mdm692
06-16-2011, 12:19 PM
This list is a joke no way westbrook, rose, rondo, even dwill are better than nash. . .

MacFitz92
06-16-2011, 12:23 PM
This list is a joke no way westbrook, rose, rondo, even dwill are better than nash. . .

Lol.

D_Rose1118
06-16-2011, 12:31 PM
I think nash might be a better facilitator but only by a little bit, while rondo's defense is good while nash is pretty bad.

so ill take that loss in facilitating if i am getting defense

Rocketsfan85
06-16-2011, 12:35 PM
I don't even agree wit rose being second I would put d-will second n Rondo third then after that its a toss up between westbrook n rose cuz there not true pgs

m26555
06-16-2011, 12:38 PM
Westbrook and Nash ahead of Rondo is ridiculously comical. :laugh2:

Sadds The Gr8
06-16-2011, 12:39 PM
Rondo should be ahead of Westy really.


Defitantly Rondo here, Nash proved this year he's a product of the system
And Rondo isn't? he's the definition of "product of a system".


I'm gonna pick the one that can shoot. Nash.
not only that...a top 3 shooter in NBA history. He's way more efficient than Rondo.

Sadds The Gr8
06-16-2011, 12:40 PM
Westbrook and Nash ahead of Rondo is ridiculously comical. :laugh2:

did u see rondo play in the 2nd half of the season and in the 2nd round? ****in atrocious.

m26555
06-16-2011, 12:41 PM
And Rondo isn't? he's the definition of "product of a system".


not only that...a top 3 shooter in NBA history. He's way more efficient than Rondo.
I guess we should completely ignore the fact that Nash is an awful defender.

m26555
06-16-2011, 12:41 PM
did u see rondo play in the 2nd half of the season and in the 2nd round? ****in atrocious.
He had a dislocated elbow. :laugh2:

Oh, and did you see WESTBROOK play in the playoffs? ****ing atrocious.

Sadds The Gr8
06-16-2011, 12:44 PM
I guess we should completely ignore the fact that Nash is an awful defender.
i guess we should ignore that Nash = best shooting PG of all-time, Rondo = Worst shooting PG in the league today.

He had a dislocated elbow. :laugh2:

Oh, and did you see WESTBROOK play in the playoffs? ****ing atrocious.

he was still playing bad before the injury.

m26555
06-16-2011, 12:46 PM
i guess we should ignore that Nash = best shooting PG of all-time, Rondo = Worst shooting PG in the league today.


he was still playing bad before the injury.
And Nash is arguably the worst defensive point guard in the league today while Rondo is arguably the best. I'll take a point guard who can still get me 20-25 points driving to the hole, get me 10-15 assists (frequently more), AND shut opponents down rather than a guy who can shoot from the outside.

And it was two games. I guess you missed his first round performance against the Knicks.

Sorry, but saying Nash is a better player than Rondo at this stage is ridiculous. Westbrook is just a different story entirely. How the hell he was voted fourth after that MISERABLE playoff performance is beyond me.

Rivera
06-16-2011, 12:48 PM
this right here is betweeen rondo and nash and no one else

you can make an argument for either or

but i have to go with RONDOOOOOO

best PG defender in the league...great distributor and court leader its close between him and nash RIGHT NOW

i have rondo here

Rivera
06-16-2011, 12:51 PM
m2 your exaggerating westbrooks playoffs failures

yes he should have gave durant the ball more and yes he took a beating in the media


but he didnt have a horrible post season he had his moments and dont forget about a quarter to a half way in the season the 3 MVP candidates were Amare/Rose/Westbrook
:shrug:

m26555
06-16-2011, 12:54 PM
m2 your exaggerating westbrooks playoffs failures

yes he should have gave durant the ball more and yes he took a beating in the media


but he didnt have a horrible post season he had his moments and dont forget about a quarter to a half way in the season the 3 MVP candidates were Amare/Rose/Westbrook
:shrug:
Rivera, he shot 39% and averaged 4.6 turnovers per game as opposed to 6.4 assists. And your point guard should not be jacking up 30 shots a game when you have Durant on your team.

Sadds The Gr8
06-16-2011, 12:55 PM
And Nash is arguably the worst defensive point guard in the league today while Rondo is arguably the best. I'll take a point guard who can still get me 20-25 points driving to the hole, get me 10-15 assists (frequently more), AND shut opponents down rather than a guy who can shoot from the outside.
20-25 pts? lol and how often is that? the guy gets the easiest looks in the world because he plays with the best supporting cast in the league. and no he doesn't get 10-15 assists more often than Nash, so i don't know what you're talking about there. And Rondo doesn't shut ANYBODY down. he's a pesky defender, but he doesn't lock people down. Rose lights his *** up everytime they play. he struggles vs bigger PG's.


And it was two games. I guess you missed his first round performance against the Knicks.

congratulations, he torched TONEY DOUGLAS, a BACKUP PG, who isn't even a PG...he's more of a SG...and the Knicks are one of the worst defensive teams in the league


Sorry, but saying Nash is a better player than Rondo at this stage is ridiculous. Westbrook is just a different story entirely. How the hell he was voted fourth after that MISERABLE playoff performance is beyond me.


how is it ridiculous? Rondo's terrible shooting really ****s him up. his PER is the lowest out of the 3 by far, offensive rating is lowest of the 3 by far, and his defense is overrated.

Swashcuff
06-16-2011, 01:01 PM
I don't even agree wit rose being second I would put d-will second n Rondo third then after that its a toss up between westbrook n rose cuz there not true pgs

I fully agree that's why Dirk is anywhere near my top 3 for PFs because he isan't a true PF and LeBron isn't anywhere near my top 3 SFs because he isn't a true SF. If you are not a true player how could you be in the top 3. :rolleyes:

You guys really need to give it a rest and realize that the game is changing. Magic wasn't a "true PG" but he's the greatest to ever play that position. Had Westbrook and Rose be "true" PGs their teams would have never gotten to their respective conference finals.

Kidd>>>K-Mart
06-16-2011, 01:01 PM
Ricky Rubio...........

Rivera
06-16-2011, 01:02 PM
Rivera, he shot 39% and averaged 4.6 turnovers per game as opposed to 6.4 assists. And your point guard should not be jacking up 30 shots a game when you have Durant on your team.

i understand...i watched virtually every game this post season

but he wasnt THAT bad as you make him out to be....hes young and hes still gonna learn

there were a few post season games that if the thunder didnt have westbrook they wouldnt have even won a few games or even went as far as they did....

but rondo pre injury didnt exactly light it up either....no he didnt have as much turnovers and yes his %age was better but his impact on the actual games wasnt as big as last year

and mind you westbrook was worth more wins than rondo in these playoffs

i love rondo and hes in my top 10 favorite players he did take a small step back this year while westy had a huge leap forward...for one year you could say westbrook had a better year than rondo theres no problem admiting that

m26555
06-16-2011, 01:04 PM
20-25 pts? lol and how often is that? the guy gets the easiest looks in the world because he plays with the best supporting cast in the league. and no he doesn't get 10-15 assists more often than Nash, so i don't know what you're talking about there. And Rondo doesn't shut ANYBODY down. he's a pesky defender, but he doesn't lock people down. Rose lights his *** up everytime they play. he struggles vs bigger PG's.


congratulations, he torched TONEY DOUGLAS, a BACKUP PG, who isn't even a PG...he's more of a SG...and the Knicks are one of the worst defensive teams in the league



how is it ridiculous? Rondo's terrible shooting really ****s him up. his PER is the lowest out of the 3 by far, offensive rating is lowest of the 3 by far, and his defense is overrated.
Okay; stop putting words in my mouth. I never said he gets them more frequently than Nash; I just said he frequently accumulates MORE than 10-15 assists in a game (I mean, the dude averaged 11.2 on the season). And yeah; he torched Douglas who is considered by MANY to be a good defender, so you're wrong again (surprise, surprise).

The whole "Rondo is good because he plays with a good supporting cast" thing is stupid. Are you saying Jose Calderon could have that kind of impact then if he played with the Celtics? Also, how is his defense overrated? I'm curious. I mean, he had a 4.8 DWS this season.

Hawkeye15
06-16-2011, 01:10 PM
Nash here for me. I just can't ignore how poor Rondo played over the 2nd half of the season.

DoJoTheSlasher
06-16-2011, 01:11 PM
How in the hell does Westbrook make #4? This is the same guy who can't shoot to save his life and had like 20 TO to 8 assists in his first few games vs Dallas.


Rondo.

Sadds The Gr8
06-16-2011, 01:13 PM
Okay; stop putting words in my mouth. I never said he gets them more frequently than Nash; I just said he frequently accumulates MORE than 10-15 assists in a game (I mean, the dude averaged 11.2 on the season). And yeah; he torched Douglas who is considered by MANY to be a good defender, so you're wrong again (surprise, surprise).
who cares? the Knicks defense as a whole sucks. Billups was injured too. When he got matched up against the Heat defense he sucked...Bibby isn't a good defender by any means but Rondo struggled...u know why? That's called TEAM DEFENSE.
[QUOTE]The whole "Rondo is good because he plays with a good supporting cast" thing is stupid. Are you saying Jose Calderon could have that kind of impact then if he played with the Celtics? Also, how is his defense overrated? I'm curious. I mean, he had a 4.8 DWS this season.

no, because Calderon is a different player than Rondo. Calderon isn't a penetration guy and wouldn't be able to get Allen and Pierce looks. Why are we even comparing him to Calderon anyways...we should be talking about Rondo, Nash, Westy. Put Nash or West on the Celtics and they're easily better.

and DWS is more of a team oriented stat. The guy has played with a top 5 defense for the past 3 years...of course his defensive stats are gonna be inflated.

mdm692
06-16-2011, 01:15 PM
And Nash is arguably the worst defensive point guard in the league today while Rondo is arguably the best. I'll take a point guard who can still get me 20-25 points driving to the hole, get me 10-15 assists (frequently more), AND shut opponents down rather than a guy who can shoot from the outside.

And it was two games. I guess you missed his first round performance against the Knicks.

Sorry, but saying Nash is a better player than Rondo at this stage is ridiculous. Westbrook is just a different story entirely. How the hell he was voted fourth after that MISERABLE playoff performance is beyond me.

u should look up some numbers youll be surprised at some of nash defensive wise. And offensive wise nash went 15ppg 11.4apg 50%fg 39% 3pt 89 % ft while being bothered by an ankle, a groin, and a back injury. . .he also had a neck one too. . .all this past season so idk how he is part of the system when most of the plays he makes are halfcourt offense

RaidersLakers24
06-16-2011, 01:19 PM
u should look up some numbers youll be surprised at some of nash defensive wise. And offensive wise nash went 15ppg 11.4apg 50%fg 39% 3pt 89 % ft while being bothered by an ankle, a groin, and a back injury. . .he also had a neck one too. . .all this past season so idk how he is part of the system when most of the plays he makes are halfcourt offense

I'll take nash here it's pretty simple too, #6 is Tony Parker IMO #7 is between rondo and billups IMO!

Swashcuff
06-16-2011, 01:21 PM
u should look up some numbers youll be surprised at some of nash defensive wise. And offensive wise nash went 15ppg 11.4apg 50%fg 39% 3pt 89 % ft while being bothered by an ankle, a groin, and a back injury. . .he also had a neck one too. . .all this past season so idk how he is part of the system when most of the plays he makes are halfcourt offense

Could you provide us with these #s? From those that I am aware of nothing surprises me.

Giraffes Rule
06-16-2011, 01:26 PM
Steve Nash. If Rondo had kept up his performance from the beginning of the season all year he'd be much higher on the list, but he got pretty bad as the year went on.

mdm692
06-16-2011, 02:08 PM
Could you provide us with these #s? From those that I am aware of nothing surprises me.

i would but i post from my phone so its kinda hard but then again i dont expect haters or people that dont watch the suns to understand

YoungOne
06-16-2011, 02:19 PM
flashy allways gets the win here.

allSUAVE
06-16-2011, 02:23 PM
Steve Nash

strokeman
06-16-2011, 02:31 PM
wow Jason Kidd is getting no love! i think he is ahead of Nash because he plays great D!

jtsunami
06-16-2011, 02:38 PM
flashy allways gets the win here.

Rondo never makes a flashy pass or a behind the back pass fake :rolleyes:

I can't think of a PG who has a worse shot than Rondo.

I fully believe Nash would improve the Celtics and Rondo would worsen the Suns.

Swashcuff
06-16-2011, 02:41 PM
i would but i post from my phone so its kinda hard but then again i dont expect haters or people that dont watch the suns to understand

When you get the opportunity it would be nice to if you can post the. I don't consider myself a hater, I watched about 8 Suns games or so last season but I've been watching the Suns/Mavs play all along and I have not seen any improvement from him defensively over the years. In fact I'd argue that he's the worst defensive starting PG we've seen in the league for the past decade. That's why I'd really love to see these #s you're talking about.

bigA9331
06-16-2011, 02:47 PM
Rondo

tcav701
06-16-2011, 03:04 PM
I dont think Nash or Rondo shoots enough to be on a PSD poll.

Everybody knows that the best players, especially at the PG position, rely on flashy dunks and volume shooting.

Giraffes Rule
06-16-2011, 03:08 PM
wow Jason Kidd is getting no love! i think he is ahead of Nash because he plays great D!

Kidd's assist percentage is far behind that of most of the point guards being considered for the top 10. Offensively he's nowhere close to Nash, and his defense isn't that amazing that it makes up for his offense being mostly three point shooting (596 total field goal attempts, 391 were 3 pointers). If you're going to weigh defense that heavily, then Rondo beats Kidd out handily.

Jewelz0376
06-16-2011, 03:21 PM
Rondo is probably the worst shooting pg in the league...while Nash is probably the worst defensive pg in the league...It's close but I went with Rondo....

Sportfan
06-16-2011, 03:29 PM
Rondo had injury problems as well as the Perkins trade messed up the whole Celtic offense. Not to mention Rondo is clutch. How many rings does Nash have again?

Gibby23
06-16-2011, 03:35 PM
Rondo for me. I would take Rondo over Westbrook also.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-16-2011, 03:35 PM
Rondo had injury problems as well as the Perkins trade messed up the whole Celtic offense. Not to mention Rondo is clutch. How many rings does Nash have again?

Right because this (Rondo having a ring) should be the reason that Rondo is better then Nash :rolleyes:

sports4life1989
06-16-2011, 04:03 PM
I dont think Nash or Rondo shoots enough to be on a PSD poll.

Everybody knows that the best players, especially at the PG position, rely on flashy dunks and volume shooting.

You're right. That has Chris Paul written all over it :rolleyes:

Swashcuff
06-16-2011, 04:03 PM
Rondo had injury problems as well as the Perkins trade messed up the whole Celtic offense. Not to mention Rondo is clutch. How many rings does Nash have again?

How could someone manage to get near to 20,000 posts with statements like this. SMH.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-16-2011, 04:11 PM
As I said in the #4 PG thread, I believe defense for a PG isn't as important as the other positions. And for that reason, I'd go with Nash who is definitely better offensively but inferior defensively.

Not to mention that if you compare them statistically this year:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nashst01&y1=2011&p2=rondora01&y2=2011

Nash was plain better.

And numbers wise, I don't think Nash was THAT horrible defensively. From my synergy:


Steve Nash
Play %Time Number PPP Rank FG% 3PT%
Overall 100% 827 0.85 120 40.40% 33.90%
Isolation 21.30% 176 0.77 110 37.80% 33.30%
P&R BallHandler 41.40% 342 0.84 124 43% 37.30%
Post-Up 3.10% 26 0.73 39 40.90% -
P&R Roll Man 0.80% 7 0.57 - 28.60% 0%
Spot-Up 25.20% 208 0.95 149 37.80% 32.20%
Off Screen 5.10% 42 0.88 88 42.10% 35.70%
Hand Off 2.90% 24 1 - 50% 40%



Rajon Rondo
Play %Time Number PPP Rank FG% 3PT%
Overall 100% 901 0.79 42 37.90% 36.60%
Isolation 14.10% 127 0.67 43 34.90% 31.60%
P&R BallHandler 44.60% 402 0.81 92 42.50% 42.90%
Post-Up 3.60% 32 0.69 27 38.10% -
P&R Roll Man 1.10% 10 1.6 - 77.80% 100%
Spot-Up 23.20% 209 0.85 48 33.20% 32.20%
Off Screen 5.40% 49 0.88 88 35.60% 40%
Hand Off 6.90% 62 0.66 12 28.30% 50%


From basketball value, the Celtics were 2.28 points per 100 possessions worse defensively when Rondo was on the court vs. when he was off the court. So that's a -2.28 on/off court Def Rating for Rondo.

For Nash, the Suns were 2.58 points per 100 possessions better defensively when Nash was on the court vs. when he was off the court. So a +2.58 on/off court Def Rating for Nash.

So Nash is better then Rondo in that area. Of course, that is also heavily dependent on who your backups are. Nash has had Dragic/Brooks as his backup for the year, Rondo has had a combination of different PGs I believe.

From 82games.com, Rondo's opponent PER was 12.6 and at the PG position, opponents had a 45.0% eFG% against Rondo.

For Nash, his opponent PER was 14.3 and at the PG position, opponents had a 48% eFG% against Nash.

There is no doubt Rondo is the better defender but it's not this vast wide gap that would make up for Rondo's inferior offense. And as I said at the beginning of the post, I think PG defense is overrated anyways. It's much more important for a PG to be really good offensively then it is defensively.

More evidence of that fact is provided here (http://www.countthebasket.com/blog/2008/06/03/offensive-and-defensive-adjusted-plus-minus/) where if you scroll to the bottom, you can see that PGs on average are 2 points worse defensively then the average player.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-16-2011, 04:11 PM
Rondo. Its atrocious that Westbrook and possibly Nash will be ahead of him. For those of you using the playoffs excuse Westbrook was horrible during the playoffs and Nash was watching hockey games. Rondo was injured with a ****ed up elbow and had Wade not been a ******* the Celtics definitely would have been up 3-2 in that series.

heattiltheend94
06-16-2011, 04:13 PM
Went with Rondo becuase of his early season success. I like the first 4

Sadds The Gr8
06-16-2011, 04:15 PM
Rondo had injury problems as well as the Perkins trade messed up the whole Celtic offense. Not to mention Rondo is clutch. How many rings does Nash have again?

Gasol has more rings than Barkley, does that make him better?

Rondo has the perfect supporting cast around him making his job so easy. Rondo's supporting cast >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nash's, and Nash still gets more assists.

Redbull
06-16-2011, 04:17 PM
Nash.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-16-2011, 04:18 PM
Rondo. Its atrocious that Westbrook and possibly Nash will be ahead of him. For those of you using the playoffs excuse Westbrook was horrible during the playoffs and Nash was watching hockey games. Rondo was injured with a ****ed up elbow and had Wade not been a ******* the Celtics definitely would have been up 3-2 in that series.

Using your logic, Westbrook would be better since his team went further.

And good job on coming up with excuses :cry:. The Celts still lost 4-1 and I doubt Rondo being healthy would've helped them stop James and Wade at the end of the games (they may have sucked in the finals in the clutch but they were still excellent against the Celts. And Rondo being healthy wouldn't have changed that). Face it, the Celts lost to the better team.

I hate it when fans make excuses. Dallas beat Miami fair and square, the Heat beat the Bulls and Celts fair and square, the Mavs beat the Thunder and Lakers fair and square. Enough with the *****ing and moaning. That's all PSD ever does.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-16-2011, 04:23 PM
Using your logic, Westbrook would be better since his team went further.

And good job on coming up with excuses. The Celts still lost 4-1 and I doubt Rondo being healthy would've helped them stop James and Wade at the end of the games (they may have sucked in the finals in the clutch but they were still excellent against the Celts. And Rondo being healthy wouldn't have changed that). Face it, the Celts lost to the better team.

The offense definitely wasn't great or good at the end of games 4 and 5. If Rondo was at full health the offense simply would not have choked at the end of the games.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-16-2011, 04:32 PM
The offense definitely wasn't great or good at the end of games 4 and 5. If Rondo was at full health the offense simply would not have choked at the end of the games.

Miami's defense was also really good too. And Rondo being healthy doesn't stop Wade and James from making some of those ridiculous 3 pointers they made.

Since we're playing the excuse game though and I'm a Knicks fan, the Celts should've never made it out of the first round because Amare' and Billups were injured, KG clearly got away with a foul on Toney Douglas at the end of game 1, along with some other questionable calls.

See, 2 can play this game. I'm sure you're sitting there thinking, well yeah but the Knicks got swept. Well the Celts lost in 5 which isn't much better.

The point, get over it and give the other team credit. The Celtics beat the Knicks no excuses and the Heat beat the Celtics no excuses.

What I find most ironic is that during the Celts-Knicks series, Celts fans were complaining that Knicks fans were whiny. Then the very next series, the Celts fans were hypocrites and whining themselves. As I said, enough whining and moaning.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-16-2011, 04:43 PM
Miami's defense was also really good too. And Rondo being healthy doesn't stop Wade and James from making some of those ridiculous 3 pointers they made.

Since we're playing the excuse game though and I'm a Knicks fan, the Celts should've never made it out of the first round because Amare' and Billups were injured, KG clearly got away with a foul on Toney Douglas at the end of game 1, along with some other questionable calls.

See, 2 can play this game. I'm sure you're sitting there thinking, well yeah but the Knicks got swept. Well the Celts lost in 5 which isn't much better.

The point, get over it and give the other team credit. The Celtics beat the Knicks no excuses and the Heat beat the Celtics no excuses.

What I find most ironic is that during the Celts-Knicks series, Celts fans were complaining that Knicks fans were whiny. Then the very next series, the Celts fans were hypocrites and whining themselves. As I said, enough whining and moaning.

What I was just saying is that Rondo can be a huge x-factor. Don't take this off topic.

jtsunami
06-16-2011, 04:49 PM
Went with Rondo becuase of his early season success. I like the first 4

...what? How does this make any sense for who is better?

mdm692
06-16-2011, 04:50 PM
When you get the opportunity it would be nice to if you can post the. I don't consider myself a hater, I watched about 8 Suns games or so last season but I've been watching the Suns/Mavs play all along and I have not seen any improvement from him defensively over the years. In fact I'd argue that he's the worst defensive starting PG we've seen in the league for the past decade. That's why I'd really love to see these #s you're talking about.

i didnt mean to be disrespectful but there was an article i read a couple months ago saying nash was the best one on one defender the suns have due to the matchups he gets on defense. . .if he plays kobe or cp3 or dwill 1v1 he gets torched but he is usually matched up vs the weaker of the wing players which dont require nash to do much on defense thus increasing the rating(not that its too high) also this allows him to tip passes or provide help better and take charges. Not to mention he is a great vocal leader so he knows when to ask for help or a double team. Its all the little things that dont show up in stats sheets. Although he will never be known as a defender juggernaut he is not as horrible as people paint him to be

mdm692
06-16-2011, 04:59 PM
As I said in the #4 PG thread, I believe defense for a PG isn't as important as the other positions. And for that reason, I'd go with Nash who is definitely better offensively but inferior defensively.

Not to mention that if you compare them statistically this year:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nashst01&y1=2011&p2=rondora01&y2=2011

Nash was plain better.

And numbers wise, I don't think Nash was THAT horrible defensively. From my synergy:


Steve Nash
Play %Time Number PPP Rank FG% 3PT%
Overall 100% 827 0.85 120 40.40% 33.90%
Isolation 21.30% 176 0.77 110 37.80% 33.30%
P&R BallHandler 41.40% 342 0.84 124 43% 37.30%
Post-Up 3.10% 26 0.73 39 40.90% -
P&R Roll Man 0.80% 7 0.57 - 28.60% 0%
Spot-Up 25.20% 208 0.95 149 37.80% 32.20%
Off Screen 5.10% 42 0.88 88 42.10% 35.70%
Hand Off 2.90% 24 1 - 50% 40%



Rajon Rondo
Play %Time Number PPP Rank FG% 3PT%
Overall 100% 901 0.79 42 37.90% 36.60%
Isolation 14.10% 127 0.67 43 34.90% 31.60%
P&R BallHandler 44.60% 402 0.81 92 42.50% 42.90%
Post-Up 3.60% 32 0.69 27 38.10% -
P&R Roll Man 1.10% 10 1.6 - 77.80% 100%
Spot-Up 23.20% 209 0.85 48 33.20% 32.20%
Off Screen 5.40% 49 0.88 88 35.60% 40%
Hand Off 6.90% 62 0.66 12 28.30% 50%


From basketball value, the Celtics were 2.28 points per 100 possessions worse defensively when Rondo was on the court vs. when he was off the court. So that's a -2.28 on/off court Def Rating for Rondo.

For Nash, the Suns were 2.58 points per 100 possessions better defensively when Nash was on the court vs. when he was off the court. So a +2.58 on/off court Def Rating for Nash.

So Nash is better then Rondo in that area. Of course, that is also heavily dependent on who your backups are. Nash has had Dragic/Brooks as his backup for the year, Rondo has had a combination of different PGs I believe.

From 82games.com, Rondo's opponent PER was 12.6 and at the PG position, opponents had a 45.0% eFG% against Rondo.

For Nash, his opponent PER was 14.3 and at the PG position, opponents had a 48% eFG% against Nash.

There is no doubt Rondo is the better defender but it's not this vast wide gap that would make up for Rondo's inferior offense. And as I said at the beginning of the post, I think PG defense is overrated anyways. It's much more important for a PG to be really good offensively then it is defensively.

More evidence of that fact is provided here (http://www.countthebasket.com/blog/2008/06/03/offensive-and-defensive-adjusted-plus-minus/) where if you scroll to the bottom, you can see that PGs on average are 2 points worse defensively then the average player.
Great post finally someone uses numbers to back up their statements instead of saying i pick so and so because they play for so and so. You should do this for all pgs in the league and make your own list it would be more fair and accurate than having a bunch of homers vote

Giraffes Rule
06-16-2011, 05:05 PM
Rondo had injury problems as well as the Perkins trade messed up the whole Celtic offense. Not to mention Rondo is clutch. How many rings does Nash have again?

Derek Fisher has 5 rings, HE MUST BE THE BEST POINT GUARD IN THE LEAGUE **** THIS POLL

Gibby23
06-16-2011, 05:07 PM
Derek Fisher has 5 rings, HE MUST BE THE BEST POINT GUARD IN THE LEAGUE **** THIS POLL

I wouldn't say best, but he is up there. :D

PatsSoxKnicks
06-16-2011, 05:11 PM
Great post finally someone uses numbers to back up their statements instead of saying i pick so and so because they play for so and so. You should do this for all pgs in the league and make your own list it would be more fair and accurate than having a bunch of homers vote

Thanks. I do have my own list but I haven't gone into as much detail as I did with that post (not defensively at least). But since as I said, I don't think PG defense means as much, I would weight it much less.

But my list would look like:

1) CP3
2) Deron (for me, its because I need to see Rose play at this level again for another year before I raise him above Deron. There is no doubt in my mind he had a much better season but Deron has done it for many years.)
3) Rose (again, he'll probably pass Deron if he keeps up his level of play)
4) Nash (I put him ahead of Westbrook for some of the same reasons he's ahead of Rondo.)
5) Westbrook (he'll pass Nash in a year or two when he improves his efficiency and decision making. Until then, I have him behind Nash)
6) Rondo (his inability to make a jumpshot or a free throw really lowers him in my rankings. At least if he could make free throws, I could put him higher. But a PG who can't do that? Just no.)

Sadds The Gr8
06-16-2011, 05:39 PM
Rondo = most overrated player in the league.

Hustlenomics
06-16-2011, 05:47 PM
you guys are forgetting the first half of the season before Rondo got plantar fasciitis and a messed up ankle, along with the Perkins trade that messed up the team chemsitry.

Westbrook and Nash ahead of Rondo is ridiculously comical. :laugh2:

+ 1,000


i guess we should ignore that Nash = best shooting PG of all-time, Rondo = Worst shooting PG in the league today.


he was still playing bad before the injury.

Check his numbers first round vs the knicks

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-16-2011, 05:54 PM
Rondo = most overrated player in the league.

Not even at his position. Westbrook is the most overrated PG.

Sadds The Gr8
06-16-2011, 05:57 PM
you guys are forgetting the first half of the season before Rondo got plantar fasciitis and a messed up ankle, along with the Perkins trade that messed up the team chemsitry.


+ 1,000



Check his numbers first round vs the knicks

The Knicks defense is atrocious...that's not sayin much. he was brutal vs Miami, even before the arm injury.

NYKalltheway
06-16-2011, 06:06 PM
homer vote :D

bballboy9809
06-16-2011, 06:26 PM
Rondo = most overrated player in the league.

I agree 100%, look at it this way. Put Nash on the celtics and they are probably beating the mavs for the title this year. Put Rondo on the suns and they win 30 games.....Rondo is only good because of who is on his team. When the big 3 are gone he will be about as effective as CJ Watson (with no jump shot)

J_M_B
06-16-2011, 06:38 PM
Definitely Nash.

Rondo took a step back this past season..

Raidaz4Life
06-16-2011, 06:40 PM
Nash

naps
06-16-2011, 07:00 PM
Steve Nash is still the best pure point guard in the league IMO. Overall he should be in the top 3. It's a shame he's dropped this far. SMH...

Hustlenomics
06-16-2011, 07:05 PM
The Knicks defense is atrocious...that's not sayin much. he was brutal vs Miami, even before the arm injury.

that's when he was healthy and he posts good numbers every year in the playoffs


I agree 100%, look at it this way. Put Nash on the celtics and they are probably beating the mavs for the title this year. Put Rondo on the suns and they win 30 games.....Rondo is only good because of who is on his team. When the big 3 are gone he will be about as effective as CJ Watson (with no jump shot)

Nash can't even play defense so how would they win it all? Nash hasn't made it to the finals once with all the talent he's played with

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-16-2011, 07:23 PM
Also for the people who do say Rondo is only good because of the players around him is BS( which I find funny because apparently those same players are old and washed up). Do Chalmers or Bibby have a ton of assists this season? Did Billups have nearly the same assists as Rondo this season? The answer for both of those is no. Rondo is one of the best if not the best play caller in the league. Rondo helped the big three come together.

heattiltheend94
06-16-2011, 07:27 PM
Rondo
Nash
Parker
Holliday (I can't believe I just said that)
Wall
Harris
Kidd

John Walls Era
06-16-2011, 07:29 PM
:laugh: Derrick Rose over Deron?
Rondo behind Westbrook?

I voted for Wall, but realistically I probably should've picked Rondo.

Swashcuff
06-16-2011, 09:28 PM
Looks like we'll be skipping the #6 thread as well.... from their own out things will really start to get interesting.

NBA-GMaster
06-16-2011, 09:37 PM
Rondo -- the best PG defender.. 2nd in steals behind CP3 and 2nd in asst behind steve nash by 0.2.. And he's the backbone of the Celtics success..

NBA-GMaster
06-16-2011, 09:40 PM
Parker for no.7 and Wall @ no. 8

More-Than-Most
06-16-2011, 09:42 PM
Nash... Rondo would go next

More-Than-Most
06-16-2011, 09:44 PM
that's when he was healthy and he posts good numbers every year in the playoffs



Nash can't even play defense so how would they win it all? Nash hasn't made it to the finals once with all the talent he's played with

This is what happens when you play in the western conference.

Sadds The Gr8
06-16-2011, 10:09 PM
Also for the people who do say Rondo is only good because of the players around him is BS( which I find funny because apparently those same players are old and washed up). Do Chalmers or Bibby have a ton of assists this season? Did Billups have nearly the same assists as Rondo this season? The answer for both of those is no. Rondo is one of the best if not the best play caller in the league. Rondo helped the big three come together.

Wade and James are ball stoppers and Chalmers and Bibby are spot-up shooters. the situation is wayyyyy different.

And Boston won the title when Rondo wasn't even good.

allSUAVE
06-16-2011, 10:12 PM
To me Tony Parker > Rondo

NetsPaint
06-16-2011, 11:02 PM
There's several guys on this list I'd take over Rondo. Rondo is best as a back-up on a non-contending/borderline contending team. That's not a bad thing considering he is a good passer. I'll still give him a chance next season, watch him more closely, but let's be serious. If Nash was 27 you people would not be saying this. His defense is terrible? You should watch his games instead of trying to make the player you're a fan of look better.

Saying Rondo is better because his defense is better is such a cheap reason for thinking he's better. I guarantee if Rondo was never on the Celtics before and both were to hit free agency this summer, the Celtics would go after 37 years of age Nash. He plays almost the same. If you think Rondo is better now, then you think Rondo's career has been better than Nash's, and I doubt that, so stop fooling yourselves. Nash isn't as fast as him, but he still penetrates better.

Actually it's kind of funny, Rondo shouldn't be in the top 5, should be in the bottom 5. There's some quality players on this list.

Hustlenomics
06-16-2011, 11:29 PM
^ says the guy that said Delonte West is much better than Rondo

NetsPaint
06-16-2011, 11:30 PM
So you're saying I'm wrong what I said about Nash?

Saying Delonte is better than Rondo was too much considering he doesn't even play that much, but come on, Rondo better than Nash?

Avenged
06-16-2011, 11:47 PM
Rondo = most overrated player in the league.

Haha. I'm actually going for Parker in the next one idgaf. ;)

Giraffes Rule
06-16-2011, 11:51 PM
Haha. I'm actually going for Parker in the next one idgaf. ;)

Yeah, there better be a vote for number 6 because I'd vote Parker over Rondo as well.

Swashcuff
06-17-2011, 12:03 AM
So you're saying I'm wrong what I said about Nash?

Saying Dalente is better than Rondo was too much considering he doesn't even play that much, but come on, Rondo better than Nash?

Whether wrong or right no one is going to take a guy who said Delonte is a better player than Rondo seriously.

hugepatsfan
06-17-2011, 12:13 AM
Nash's team is better w/ him off the court half of the game (when they're on D). Rondo's team is always better w/ him on the floor. That gives him the edge for me.

jp611
06-17-2011, 12:19 AM
Parker for no.7 and Wall @ no. 8

John wall has no business in top 10

pd1dish
06-17-2011, 12:31 AM
i like Nash but hes getting up there in age so i went with the younger Rondo who i think is the 2nd best true PG (behind Paul)

PatsSoxKnicks
06-17-2011, 12:59 AM
Nash's team is better w/ him off the court half of the game (when they're on D). Rondo's team is always better w/ him on the floor. That gives him the edge for me.

If only we could use numbers to prove this.....Oh wait, we can. :p

From basketball value, the Suns are 4.72 points per 100 possessions better when Nash is on the court vs. -10.18 points per 100 possessions when Nash is on the bench. The difference is 14.90 points per 100 possessions which puts Nash 4th in the NBA during the regular season in on/off court +/-.

For Rondo, the Celts are 8.51 points per 100 possessions better when he is on the court vs. +1.02 points per 100 possessions when he is on the bench. Thats a difference of 7.49 points per 100 possessions which ranks 25th in the NBA.

Also from basketball value, the Celtics were 2.28 points per 100 possessions worse defensively when Rondo was on the court vs. when he was off the court. So that's a -2.28 on/off court Def Rating for Rondo.

For Nash, the Suns were 2.58 points per 100 possessions better defensively when Nash was on the court vs. when he was off the court. So a +2.58 on/off court Def Rating for Nash.

So Nash is better then Rondo in that area. Of course, that is also heavily dependent on who your backups are. Nash has had Dragic/Brooks as his backup for the year, Rondo has had a combination of different PGs I believe.

Anyways, I just disproved your little theory there. By no means am I saying Nash is better defensively then Rondo but Nash isn't as atrocious as people make him out to be. At the very least, he doesn't appear to hurt his team defensively when he's on the court (for this year at least).

In this post (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18264506&postcount=78), I posted more of their defensive numbers (which is where you come to the conclusion that Nash wasn't atrocious defensively this year)

While Rondo is definitely the superior defender, as I said earlier, PG defense is flat overrated (PGs are on average 2 points worse then the average defender). It's more important for a PG to command an offense and make good decisions while shooting a decent % (which Rondo doesn't do). Nash is no doubt better offensively. You can't debate this. And the difference between him and Rondo is enough to say Nash is better.

One of the biggest problems I have with Rondo is that he can't make free throws. And its for this reason, you could say other PGs listed in this poll are better then him. I'm not sure if I'd go that far but I could see a case.

hugepatsfan
06-17-2011, 01:07 AM
If only we could use numbers to prove this.....Oh wait, we can. :p

From basketball value, the Suns are 4.72 points per 100 possessions better when Nash is on the court vs. -10.18 points per 100 possessions when Nash is on the bench. The difference is 14.90 points per 100 possessions which puts Nash 4th in the NBA during the regular season in on/off court +/-.

For Rondo, the Celts are 8.51 points per 100 possessions better when he is on the court vs. +1.02 points per 100 possessions when he is on the bench. Thats a difference of 7.49 points per 100 possessions which ranks 25th in the NBA.

Also from basketball value, the Celtics were 2.28 points per 100 possessions worse defensively when Rondo was on the court vs. when he was off the court. So that's a -2.28 on/off court Def Rating for Rondo.

For Nash, the Suns were 2.58 points per 100 possessions better defensively when Nash was on the court vs. when he was off the court. So a +2.58 on/off court Def Rating for Nash.

So Nash is better then Rondo in that area. Of course, that is also heavily dependent on who your backups are. Nash has had Dragic/Brooks as his backup for the year, Rondo has had a combination of different PGs I believe.

Anyways, I just disproved your little theory there. By no means am I saying Nash is better defensively then Rondo but Nash isn't as atrocious as people make him out to be. At the very least, he doesn't appear to hurt his team defensively when he's on the court (for this year at least).

In this post (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18264506&postcount=78), I posted more of their defensive numbers (which is where you come to the conclusion that Nash wasn't atrocious defensively this year)

While Rondo is definitely the superior defender, as I said earlier, PG defense is flat overrated (PGs are on average 2 points worse then the average defender). It's more important for a PG to command an offense and make good decisions while shooting a decent % (which Rondo doesn't do). Nash is no doubt better offensively. You can't debate this. And the difference between him and Rondo is enough to say Nash is better.

One of the biggest problems I have with Rondo is that he can't make free throws. And its for this reason, you could say other PGs listed in this poll are better then him. I'm not sure if I'd go that far but I could see a case.

Using those #s like that can be misleading. It doesn't take into account who they play w/ and other factors. I misworded my point. I'll put it better here... Nash is above average offensively but below average defensively. Rondo is above average offensively and defensively. I feel they are comparable players and Rondo being a productive asset on both ends gives him the edge IMO. I don't see a problem w/ votng Nash either. I've said all season (or since mid way or so) that CP3 is 1, D-Will is 2, Rose is 3, Westy is 4, and Nash/Rondo are 5/6 in either order.

NetsPaint
06-17-2011, 01:14 AM
Using those #s like that can be misleading. It doesn't take into account who they play w/ and other factors. I misworded my point. I'll put it better here... Nash is above average offensively but below average defensively. Rondo is above average offensively and defensively. I feel they are comparable players and Rondo being a productive asset on both ends gives him the edge IMO. I don't see a problem w/ votng Nash either. I've said all season (or since mid way or so) that CP3 is 1, D-Will is 2, Rose is 3, Westy is 4, and Nash/Rondo are 5/6 in either order.
You bring up a reasonable point, but Nash's offense is better to the point his effectiveness is what makes him better. There's probably a lot of players who are solid on both ends, at any position, but doesn't mean their effect is better.

Rondo didn't average as many assists and he has better players as teammates. Some might disagree, but I don't think Allen, Pierce, and Garnett are over the hill. They're not what they once were, but they're still good with high basketball IQ. I saw the Suns struggle in games when Nash was off the court. Let's not forget Gortat was coming off the bench for Robin Lopez most of the season so that's a big reason why they had defense on the bench LOL.

Sadds The Gr8
06-17-2011, 01:57 AM
Haha. I'm actually going for Parker in the next one idgaf. ;)

it's definitely gonna get skipped

PatsSoxKnicks
06-17-2011, 01:58 AM
Using those #s like that can be misleading. It doesn't take into account who they play w/ and other factors. I misworded my point. I'll put it better here... Nash is above average offensively but below average defensively. Rondo is above average offensively and defensively. I feel they are comparable players and Rondo being a productive asset on both ends gives him the edge IMO. I don't see a problem w/ votng Nash either. I've said all season (or since mid way or so) that CP3 is 1, D-Will is 2, Rose is 3, Westy is 4, and Nash/Rondo are 5/6 in either order.

Obviously, on/off court +/- numbers can be misleading because there are many different factors like backups, who they play with, etc. that can affect those numbers. But for what its worth, Nash STILL outperforms Rondo in 2 year adjusted +/- which eliminates all of those factors but has a very high standard error. I think even with those errors included though, Nash still outperforms Rondo.

Anyways, I think you missed the point. Simply saying Nash is above average offensively but below average defensively while Rondo is above average in both categories doesn't necessarily mean that Rondo is better then Nash. And Nash isn't simply above average, he's great offensively.

The point I was making is that PG defense is not as important. I would say for a PG, you're looking for 70-30 in terms of importance (70% being offense, 30% being defense). The fact of the matter is that bad PG defense gets covered up a lot by a great interior presence. And something that definitely helps Rondo (which Nash doesn't have the luxury of) is that KG (one of the best defenders in the NBA) is behind him.

So the way I look at it, does Rondo's defense make up for the fact that Nash is quite a bit superior offensively? I don't think so, especially when you consider how unimportant defense is at the PG position. We're also talking about a PG that can't make FTs, which is a problem at the end of games.

Most PGs are roughly 2 points per 100 possessions worse defensively from the average defensive player. (Scroll to the bottom of this blog post (http://www.countthebasket.com/blog/2008/06/03/offensive-and-defensive-adjusted-plus-minus/), while it's been a couple of years, I doubt the numbers have changed that much)

So taking that into account, I would give the edge to Nash because of his superior offense.

Nicolas007
06-17-2011, 09:11 AM
Nash only 2-time MVP on the list.

Sportfan
06-17-2011, 10:57 AM
Nash only 2-time MVP on the list.
So Shaq should have been the #1 center in last year's poll because he had more MVP's than Dwight?

And Rondo has more titles combined than the top 5 combined :moon:

bbcmillionaire
06-17-2011, 11:04 AM
Idk, they are both system pgs, tough 1 here. Imma say rondo no Nash no rondo...fk it I might not vote lol

AsikandDestroy
06-17-2011, 11:28 AM
Nash is still the man!

PatsSoxKnicks
06-17-2011, 11:47 AM
And Rondo has more titles combined than the top 5 combined :moon:

Derek Fisher has more titles then Rondo, so that MUST mean he's better then Rondo :rolleyes:

tcav701
06-17-2011, 11:56 AM
Can we move on with this poll now?

mdm692
06-17-2011, 12:15 PM
Using those #s like that can be misleading. It doesn't take into account who they play w/ and other factors. I misworded my point. I'll put it better here... Nash is above average offensively but below average defensively. Rondo is above average offensively and defensively. I feel they are comparable players and Rondo being a productive asset on both ends gives him the edge IMO. I don't see a problem w/ votng Nash either. I've said all season (or since mid way or so) that CP3 is 1, D-Will is 2, Rose is 3, Westy is 4, and Nash/Rondo are 5/6 in either order.
so a guy that shoots 40-50-90 leads all guards in double doubles, leads all pg in games with 15+ asst, lead the entire nba in apg at 11.4, has the highest shootin% among pgs, and has a cast of scrubs worst than anybody in nba only is above average in offense right??. . .oh he had the highest win shares from anybody except lebron james but all you homers are just going to ignore these numbers and facts that show that this old man is at keast top 3 among pgs

Denver-boy
06-17-2011, 12:39 PM
Also, why isn't Ty Lawson on this list?

Lawson > Felton.... felton on the list, ty not. who made this??? :eyebrow:

Mile High Champ
06-17-2011, 12:46 PM
mods please close this.. 6 is up.

Giraffes Rule
06-17-2011, 12:47 PM
Lawson > Felton.... felton on the list, ty not. who made this??? :eyebrow:

Do you honestly believe that Ty Lawson is the number 5 point guard in the league? I don't think you do, so that's why he's not here. He'll get added later.