PDA

View Full Version : Jason Kidd all time ranking?



SACNYY
06-13-2011, 02:43 AM
Finally my favorite player Jason Kidd has a ring. My opinion that puts him ahead of John Stockton in the all time list of Point Guards. I would say the top 3 is..

3-Jason Kidd
2-Isiah Thomas
1-Magic

With Stockton at 4. What do you think?

Congrats to Kidd!:clap:

GiantsSwaGG
06-13-2011, 02:47 AM
Magic was like a PF playing PG back in the day lol...

MFFL==FML
06-13-2011, 02:48 AM
Top 2 I think... WITHOUT A DOUBT top 4.

LA_Raiders
06-13-2011, 02:51 AM
1.Magic
2.Stockton
3.Thomas
4.Payton
5.Kidd

SACNYY
06-13-2011, 02:52 AM
Magic was like a PF playing PG back in the day lol...

Yep but PG was his position.

SACNYY
06-13-2011, 02:53 AM
1.Magic
2.Stockton
3.Thomas
4.Payton
5.Kidd

No way man. Payton ahead of Kidd?!

shep33
06-13-2011, 02:53 AM
I put Kidd ahead of Dirk all-time when it comes to overall players. But for pg's, yeah I think 3rd is good.

MFFL==FML
06-13-2011, 02:54 AM
1.Magic
2.Stockton
3.Thomas
4.Payton
5.Kidd

Dude, what are you even talking about... Payton Manning plays football! I know you're not talking about Gary Payton... right?

MFFL==FML
06-13-2011, 02:55 AM
No way man. Payton ahead of Kidd?!

Yeah I don't know wtf he is talking about either...

GiantsSwaGG
06-13-2011, 02:56 AM
1.Magic
2.Stockton
3.Thomas
4.Payton
5.Kidd

:facepalm:

GiantsSwaGG
06-13-2011, 02:57 AM
Yep but PG was his position.

Yeah but he was definitely the best. I'd say Kidd was the 3rd best imo!

SACNYY
06-13-2011, 02:59 AM
Yeah but he was definitely the best. I'd say Kidd was the 3rd best imo!

Yep I agree

Hellcrooner
06-13-2011, 03:00 AM
1 Magic
2 O Robertson
3 Stokcton
4 Isiah thomas
5 Bob Cousy
6 Jason Kidd

Lakersfan2483
06-13-2011, 03:03 AM
He's behind Magic, Oscar, Isaiah, Stockton and Payton.

GiantsSwaGG
06-13-2011, 03:05 AM
He's behind Magic, Oscar, Isaiah, Stockton and Payton.

:facepalm:

MFFL==FML
06-13-2011, 03:07 AM
He's behind Magic, Oscar, Isaiah, Stockton and Payton.

Dude, wtf is with people from California thinking Payton is better than Kidd? I'm so confused... the Payton that wanted to chase a ring and ride with the Heat to get his ring handed down to him by the refs? All I know is without Jason Kidd, the Mavericks would not have even made it to the Finals...

GrantHustle
06-13-2011, 03:10 AM
Isn't Kidd 2nd or 3rd all time in triple doubles that about sums him up i think he's top 2 for sure even if he didn't win but now that he has it cements his position as one of the best PG's of all-time

LA_Raiders
06-13-2011, 03:11 AM
Dang easy on me, I'm not LeBrick... Gary is the best D PG IMO so I think he is better than kidd... 1-1 Gary will **** Kidd up...

Again IMO...

King P
06-13-2011, 03:11 AM
Top 3. Only Magic & Oscar are better

Lakersfan2483
06-13-2011, 03:12 AM
:facepalm:

Why the facepalm about Gary Payton? Gary Payton is the only other guard besides Michael Jordan to win the NBA all time defensive player of the year award. He was an all nba perfomer and all nba defender just like Kidd. He was just as good as Kidd in terms of impact on the game except Payton was the better scorer. In terms of winning, etc..., he's done just as much as J. Kidd. Payton is one of the most complete guards in NBA history.

LA_Raiders
06-13-2011, 03:14 AM
It seems like you guys have a short memory... Oscar is also better than Kidd...

1.Magic
2.Stockton
3.Oscar
4.Thomas
5.Gary
6.Kidd

Thats sounds about right...

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 03:14 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=kiddja01&y1=2011&p2=stockjo01&y2=2003&p3=johnsma02&y3=1996&p4=paytoga01&y4=2007&p5=thomais01&y5=1994

Magic is clearly #1 and Stockton is clearly #2. That becomes obvious if you look at any of these metrics- PER, TS%, Ast%, ORtg, WS or WS/48. That's a long list where either of those 2 guys leads in each one.

After that, it gets more interesting. I think Thomas is overrated (and I'm not saying that cause I'm a Knicks fan) but he did raise his game in the playoffs. During the regular season, he was a good player. But not as good as Kidd or Payton. Thomas was better in the postseason then both though. He actually raised his level of play (ORtg goes from 106 to 110 in the playoffs, PER goes up, etc.) in the postseason.

However, I'd still put him last out of the 5 because he trails by a lot in the regular season, especially when you consider peak and longevity. Payton and Kidd played for a long time and BOTH had better peaks then Thomas. Between Kidd and Payton, I'll go with Payton because I think he was better in his peak. But Kidd was definitely the better PURE point guard. Defensively, the glove probably gets the edge.

So my rankings would go:

#1 Magic
#2 Stockton
(good sized gap)
#3 Payton
#4 Kidd
#5 Isiah

Oops, forgot about Oscar. He's probably in between Magic and Stockton (at #2). Although, I'm not entirely sure Oscar was considered a PG. He's listed on basketball-reference as a Guard-Forward.

Lakersfan2483
06-13-2011, 03:16 AM
Dude, wtf is with people from California thinking Payton is better than Kidd? I'm so confused... the Payton that wanted to chase a ring and ride with the Heat to get his ring handed down to him by the refs? All I know is without Jason Kidd, the Mavericks would not have even made it to the Finals...

Because a lot of people don't recognize just how great of a player GP was. Payton was a complete guard on both ends. His teams were always at the top in terms of winning. He was an all nba defender almost every year, tops in assists, rebounding and scoring for his position. His post game was far better than Jason Kidd's. He was a better scorer and just as impactful in terms of wins and losses. People sleep on how good GP was. Check out what he did during his prime years.

Jason Kidd learned from Payton in terms of how to play the position. He used to workout with GP and play pickup ball when Payton was in college and Jason was in high school.

LA_Raiders
06-13-2011, 03:17 AM
^Agree but I'd put Oscar in #3

LA_Raiders
06-13-2011, 03:17 AM
Kidd #5 to make you all happy....

HallofFameKidd
06-13-2011, 03:20 AM
Dang easy on me, I'm not LeBrick... Gary is the best D PG IMO so I think he is better than kidd... 1-1 Gary will **** Kidd up...

Again IMO...


Based on this argument, S. Marbury, S. Francis, T. Hardaway, etc. would torch Kidd (even in his prime). The Glove was an amazing pg, but could he still be the star in the game without scoring a single point? Plus, Kidd's longevity, efficacy, and overall stats push him pass GP, IMO.

GiantsSwaGG
06-13-2011, 03:22 AM
Why the facepalm about Gary Payton? Gary Payton is the only other guard besides Michael Jordan to win the NBA all time defensive player of the year award. He was an all nba perfomer and all nba defender just like Kidd. He was just as good as Kidd in terms of impact on the game except Payton was the better scorer. In terms of winning, etc..., he's done just as much as J. Kidd. Payton is one of the most complete guards in NBA history.

http://bkref.com/tiny/KW9bX

GiantsSwaGG
06-13-2011, 03:24 AM
It seems like you guys have a short memory... Oscar is also better than Kidd...

1.Magic
2.Stockton
3.Oscar
4.Thomas
5.Gary
6.Kidd

Thats sounds about right...

Looks like you had a short memory before you read some else post who mention Oscar!

1.Magic
2.Stockton
3.Thomas
4.Payton
5.Kidd

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 03:25 AM
^Agree but I'd put Oscar in #3

Yeah, I could see Oscar being behind Stockton. To be honest, I didn't really look at it closely. As you can tell from my post, I forgot about Oscar originally :shrug:

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 03:33 AM
Based on this argument, S. Marbury, S. Francis, T. Hardaway, etc. would torch Kidd (even in his prime). The Glove was an amazing pg, but could he still be the star in the game without scoring a single point? Plus, Kidd's longevity, efficacy, and overall stats push him pass GP, IMO.

It's a good debate between them but I'd give GP the edge.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kiddja01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoga01.html

Look at their peaks, and GP was better in terms of PER, TS%, eFG%, TOV%, ORtg, WS and WS/48. In the playoffs, neither of them were that great but GP was probably better in his peak in the playoffs then Kidd too. Defensively, I'd give the edge to GP too. I'll give you the fact that Kidd was the better PURE PG but overall, I'd still give the edge to GP. One other edge for GP is that he was much less turnover prone then Kidd.

MR.TRIPDUB
06-13-2011, 03:35 AM
Magic
Oscar
Stockton/KIDD ( just because of 1 title ) i just cant leave stock out of top 3
Thomas
Payton

Idk if thats bias cuz jkidd is my alltime favorite player. Im so happy for him and so glad that he didnt have to ring chase to get one.
Didnt see cousy play so i cant place him.

JNA17
06-13-2011, 03:38 AM
I'm ashamed about some of the lakers fans here that think GP is better than Kidd.

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robinson
3. Jason Kidd
4. John Stockton
5. Isiah Thomas

To me, 1 and 2 (if OR is counted as a PG) are definite. the Top 5 however with these guys you can make a case for as number 3. My personal opinion is Kidd because of how dominate he was especially in his prime. What's amazing is besides his triple doubles, he's not dominate for his stats, but shows he dominate and smart he is on the court. And he is still even at his age. He's how i picture of what a point guard should be. A point guard that can do...well anything. He's a general on the court. He can rebound, pass, score, and of course he's also a great defender. He's so consistent and has had a huge impact on every team he went too.

LA_Raiders
06-13-2011, 03:40 AM
Looks like you had a short memory before you read some else post who mention Oscar!

agree, lol

LA_Raiders
06-13-2011, 03:42 AM
Wow, Kidd wins after 15 seasons??? (or more), lol and he gets a lot of love...

Dont get me wrong I like the guy, I wanted him in LA, but there are 4 PGs ahead of him.

Lakersfan2483
06-13-2011, 03:45 AM
Wow, Kidd wins after 15 seasons??? (or more), lol and he gets a lot of love...

Dont get me wrong I like the guy, I wanted him in LA, but there are 4 PGs ahead of him.

Magic, Isaiah, Oscar and Stockton. Kidd vs Payton is very debatable. I believe GP was better. I saw both in their prime and Payton was the better overall talent and player. Better scorer, defender and much better post game. Payton doesn't get his proper respect. The man was lethal in his prime.

Kidd is a great player and a hall of famer, but he was NOT better than Gary. A prime Gary could go out and get you close to 23 or 24 pts a night and still hand out around 8 or 9 assts per game and guard the other team's best player on the wing. Jason Kidd could not and was not capable of carrying that type of offensive load during his prime years unlike Gary.

JNA17
06-13-2011, 03:46 AM
Wow, Kidd wins after 15 seasons??? (or more), lol and he gets a lot of love...

Dont get me wrong I like the guy, I wanted him in LA, but there are 4 PGs ahead of him.

some guys never win a title at all. Who cares how long they have won it, the fact is, he did, and even at his age, made a huge impact for the Mavs just like he did with the Nets...THE NETS! Seriously when was the last time they became a significant threat? BEFORE and AFTER Kidd?

Deron Williams is starting too if he stays but the Nets are still in the bottom of the NBA for now. Kidd during the early and mid 2000s changed that and made it to the finals with that team two times.

HallofFameKidd
06-13-2011, 03:47 AM
It's a good debate between them but I'd give GP the edge.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kiddja01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoga01.html

Look at their peaks, and GP was better in terms of PER, TS%, eFG%, TOV%, ORtg, WS and WS/48. In the playoffs, neither of them were that great but GP was probably better in his peak in the playoffs then Kidd too. Defensively, I'd give the edge to GP too. I'll give you the fact that Kidd was the better PURE PG but overall, I'd still give the edge to GP. One other edge for GP is that he was much less turnover prone then Kidd.

lol...That's probably because Kidd is/was more likely to pass the ball than GP. But like you said, it's a good debate. In the top 5 discussion, 2-5 will be a non-stop debate for years to come. To even be considered in the top 5 all-time is a tremendous accomplishment for those players.

On that note, GO MAVS!!! :)

DamnGoat
06-13-2011, 03:47 AM
He's a top 5 PG with or without a title. I'm just glad as a fan that he finally got one.

Lake_Show2416
06-13-2011, 03:48 AM
Magic
Big O
Stockton
Kidd
Thomas

jmeeks42
06-13-2011, 03:49 AM
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Zeke
4. Stockton
5. Kidd

Lakersfan2483
06-13-2011, 03:56 AM
Kidd is a great player and a hall of famer, but he was NOT better than Gary. A prime Gary could go out and get you close to 23 (24 pts per game was his best) a night and still hand out around 8 or 9 assts per game and guard the other team's best player on the wing. Jason Kidd could not and was not capable of carrying that type of offensive load during his prime years unlike Gary. Gary was also efficient while carrying that type of load on his teams...... I am talking in terms of scoring 20 plus a night during an 82 game season (being the team's leading scorer) and also being the team's no. 1 playmaker/closer and guard the other team's top wing player.

KingPosey
06-13-2011, 03:57 AM
a lot of you must not have been old enough to watch GP or something. 20 and 10 from your pg and he might be the best defensive player at his position as well.

Im not saying he is easil better than Kidd, but those of you scoffing at the notion must not know your stuff.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 04:07 AM
I think the guy getting the short stick here is Stockton. Some of you guys have him behind Isiah, Kidd or GP which I think is insane. Stockton was a Beast. Consistently led the league in passing every year, great shooter, racked up the steals too. Admittedly, his numbers did decline by quite a bit in the postseason but even his declined postseason #'s were better then GP, Kidd or Isiah.

JNA17
06-13-2011, 04:07 AM
Kidd is a great player and a hall of famer, but he was NOT better than Gary. A prime Gary could go out and get you close to 23 or 24 pts a night and still hand out around 8 or 9 assts per game and guard the other team's best player on the wing. Jason Kidd could not and was not capable of carrying that type of offensive load during his prime years unlike Gary.

Kidd carried a load that went beyond stats. He carried his team(s) through team effort and made everyone better for it. Again, with no front court, with his second best player being Richard Jefferson, he led his team to the finals with his defense that his team lead the league in defense in points and defensive rating while on his offense leading his team in the top 10 or 5 i believe in assists, rebounds, steals, etc.

If he wanted to, he could have scored a lot more, hell, even get a lot more forced assists, but he was a definition of a team player. A guy that anybody would pick on their street ball team :D.

Lakersfan2483
06-13-2011, 04:08 AM
a lot of you must not have been old enough to watch GP or something. 20 and 10 from your pg and he might be the best defensive player at his position as well.

Im not saying he is easil better than Kidd, but those of you scoffing at the notion must not know your stuff.

Thank you, that is all I am trying to say here. I have Kidd right behind Payton all time. Kidd is close to Payton. My thing is this, people laugh at the notion of Gary being above Kidd and that is funny to me. People forget Gary was a 20 and 10 guy in his prime as you mentioned and led his teams to 55 plus win seasons multiple times, led his team to the finals, led his team in both scoring and assists per game for many yrs., was the main option at the end of games and had to guard the other team's best player.

Lakersfan2483
06-13-2011, 04:11 AM
Kidd carried a load that went beyond stats. He carried his team(s) through team effort and made everyone better for it. Again, with no front court, with his second best player being Richard Jefferson, he led his team to the finals with his defense that his team lead the league in defense in points and defensive rating while on his offense leading his team in the top 10 or 5 i believe in assists, rebounds, steals, etc.

If he wanted to, he could have scored a lot more, hell, even get a lot more forced assists, but he was a definition of a team player. A guy that anybody would pick on their street ball team :D.

I am not knocking Jason Kidd man, but you do realize that he led the Nets to the finals during one of the worse, if not the worst years in the NBA in terms of the Eastern Conference overall talent distribution on teams. The Eastern Conference was very weak at that time as based on team records for that year and lack of dominant frontcourt players in the East and lack of talent as a whole. All of the major players were out West in terms of Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Robinson, Webber, Dirk, KG, etc...

One last thing, players play to their particular skill sets. Jason Kidd had a terrific overall floor game, but was not a major scorer and didn't have the skill set of a GP in terms of scoring. So, to say he could avg. 22 or 23 a night is wrong. He never did and wasn't capable of doing it during an 82 game season, at least not efficiently.

Payton is in rare conversation in terms of point guards being able to avg. 20 plus pts and 8 or more assts per night. Only a handful of point guards were able to do that. Guys like Oscar, Magic, Isaiah, and now Chris Paul and Derrick Rose are doing it. It is very rare though for a player to consistently do it like GP did it for so many years.

HallofFameKidd
06-13-2011, 04:12 AM
a lot of you must not have been old enough to watch GP or something. 20 and 10 from your pg and he might be the best defensive player at his position as well.

Im not saying he is easil better than Kidd, but those of you scoffing at the notion must not know your stuff.

Oh, no doubt, GP was the truth. In Kidd's early days I hated when Kidd had to play GP, because he (Kidd) always got schooled. Gary was the top PG for many years, IMO. However, my debate is with overall career achievements/statistics/records. It is very much debatable on where they are positioned on the all-time pg list. Also, GP (in his prime) may have been a better overall defender than Kidd (in his prime)...but do you think GP at 38 yrs old could effectively guard Kobe, Durant, Westbrook, Wade or LBJ???

cambovenzi
06-13-2011, 04:15 AM
Kidd shot 40% for his career FFS...
Never averaged 20 ppg.

Payton also has him in Steals and win shares, and has about 800 fewer turnovers.

I think he has a legitimate case over kidd.

JNA17
06-13-2011, 04:24 AM
I am not knocking Jason Kidd man, but you do realize that he led the Nets to the finals during one of the worst, if not the worst years in the NBA in terms of the Eastern Conference overall talent distribution on teams. The Eastern Conference was very weak at that time as based on team records for that year and lack of dominant frontcourt players in the East and lack of talent as a whole. All of the major players were out West in terms of Shaq, Duncan, Webber, Dirk, KG, Kobe, etc...

you mean teams like the Pistons with their 50 wins almost every year during the early/mid 2000s with Ben Wallace, Billups, Richard Hamilton, Sheed Wallace, you know...the same team that beat the lakers in 2004? :(

Or how about the thugs known as the early 2000s Pacers with Ron Artest, Reggie Miller, Jermaine O'Neal, Al Harrington (well that last player is kind of pushing it).

Or how about star offensive power players like Vince Carter of the Raptors? Allen Iverson of the 76ers? Paul Pierce of the Celtics?

during the 2003 playoffs, the majority of the EC teams were top defending teams as well. Was the west tougher? Yes, but not by such a wide margin. Your confusing the 2005-2010 East XD.

HallofFameKidd
06-13-2011, 04:25 AM
I am not knocking Jason Kidd man, but you do realize that he led the Nets to the finals during one of the worse, if not the worst years in the NBA in terms of the Eastern Conference overall talent distribution on teams. The Eastern Conference was very weak at that time as based on team records for that year and lack of dominant frontcourt players in the East and lack of talent as a whole. All of the major players were out West in terms of Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Robinson, Webber, Dirk, KG, etc...

One last thing, players play to their particular skill sets. Jason Kidd had a terrific overall floor game, but was not a major scorer and didn't have the skill set of a GP in terms of scoring so to say he could avg. 22 or 23 a night is wrong. He never did and wasn't capable of doing it during an 82 game season, at least not doing efficiently like Gary.

Yeah, you're right, the competition in the East was definitely inferior to the West. However, during Kidd's 3rd straight attempt at a finals run, it took the Detroit Pistons 7 games to dethrone the, then, 2-time Eastern Conference Champs. That same 2004 Detroit team went on to beat your dynasty Lakers in 5, right?

Edit: lol, JNA17 beat me to it regarding the Pistons over Lakers comment.

Lakersfan2483
06-13-2011, 04:30 AM
Yeah, you're right, the competition in the East was definitely inferior to the West. However, during Kidd's 3rd straight attempt at a finals run, it took the Detroit Pistons 7 games to dethrone the, then, 2-time Eastern Conference Champs. That same 2004 Detroit team went on to beat your dynasty Lakers in 5, right?

Besides the 04 Pistons, none of those Eastern Conference teams were legit title contenders. Go look at the records of those Eastern Conference teams during that time, they were very weak outside of Detroit and Indiana. The Sixers, Heat, Nets, Raptors, Bucks, Celtics, etc had absolutely no chance of winning a title. The teams that made it out of the East (Save for the 04 Pistons) were junior varsity level teams compared to the West at that time.

Lakersfan2483
06-13-2011, 04:33 AM
you mean teams like the Pistons with their 50 wins almost every year during the early/mid 2000s with Ben Wallace, Billups, Richard Hamilton, Sheed Wallace, you know...the same team that beat the lakers in 2004? :(

Or how about the thugs known as the early 2000s Pacers with Ron Artest, Reggie Miller, Jermaine O'Neal, Al Harrington (well that last player is kind of pushing it).

Or how about star offensive power players like Vince Carter of the Raptors? Allen Iverson of the 76ers? Paul Pierce of the Celtics?

during the 2003 playoffs, the majority of the EC teams were top defending teams as well. Was the west tougher? Yes, but not by such a wide margin. Your confusing the 2005-2010 East XD.

The fact that you are mentioning teams like the Celtics, Raptors, and Sixers proves my point. Those teams had absolutely no chance of winning a title during that time. The Pacers with Artest were very good one year and were legit until Artest ran into the stands to fight that fan and that was all she wrote. Look at the records of those teams and look at the collection of talent on those teams. The East was at an all time low during that time save for a few teams.

HallofFameKidd
06-13-2011, 04:40 AM
Besides the 04 Pistons, none of those Eastern Conference teams were legit title contenders. Go look at the records of those Eastern Conference teams during that time, they were very weak outside of Detroit and Indiana. The Sixers, Heat, Nets, Raptors, Bucks, Celtics, etc had absolutely no chance of winning a title and the East. The teams that made it out of the East (Save for the 04 Pistons) were junior varsity level teams compared to the West at that time.

Very true, those other teams were complete trash. However, as a Lakers fan you should understand easy roads to the finals. Before this year, LA's 3 straight finals runs were completely a walk in the park. You know that none of their opponents in the West, during that span, truly had a real chance at beating those Lakers teams, right?! And please don't suggest OKC...Denver? maybe. The same could be said for J.Kidd's Nets, until R.Wallace got traded to Detroit.

Lakersfan2483
06-13-2011, 04:48 AM
Very true, those other teams were complete trash. However, as a Lakers fan you should understand easy roads to the finals. Before this year, LA's 3 straight finals runs was completely a walk in the park. You know that none of their opponents in the West, during that span, truly had a real chance at beating those Lakers teams, right?!... and please don't suggest OKC. The same could be said for J.Kidd's Nets, until R.Wallace got traded to Detroit.

In O9, Denver was legit and definitely could have beaten LA . In fact, Kobe Bryant himself stated that the Nuggets with Melo, Billups, Martin, Nene, Birdman, Jr. Smith was the toughest team they faced that entire year. The Lakers had to scratch and claw to win that series and it was in jeopardy when Denver won Game 2 and stole homecourt. The 08 Spurs were legit and the defending champs when LA beat them in 07-08. So, I don't think those teams were chumps and they definitely were good enough to beat LA.

Also, most of the teams LA faced during those 3 straight title runs were 50 plus win teams loaded with talent unlike the weak East teams back during the times I mentioned. Teams like Utah, Dallas, San Antonio, Denver, Houston, OKC, and Phoenix etc.. were significantly better than any of those early 00 Eastern Conference teams save for the 04 Pistons and maybe the Pacers that one particular year they were contenders.

HallofFameKidd
06-13-2011, 05:11 AM
In O9, Denver was legit and definitely could have beaten LA . In fact, Kobe Bryant himself stated that the Nuggets with Melo, Billups, Martin, Nene, Birdman, Jr. Smith was the toughest team they faced that entire year. The Lakers had to scratch and claw to win that series and it was in jeopardy when Denver won Game 2 and stole homecourt. The 08 Spurs were legit and the defending champs when LA beat them in 07-08. So, I don't think those teams were chumps and they definitely were good enough to beat LA.

Also, most of the teams LA faced during those 3 straight title runs were 50 plus win teams loaded with talent unlike the weak East teams back during the times I mentioned. Teams like Utah, Dallas, San Antonio, Denver, Houston, OKC, and Phoenix etc.. were significantly better than any of those early 00 Eastern Conference teams save for the 04 Pistons and maybe the Pacers that one particular year they were contenders.

Yeah, I brought up Denver as a possible threat in my edit. Houston was even tough without Yao, which is probably why Artest is a Laker now.

As a Mavericks fan, trust me, 50+ wins can mean absolutely nothing. LAL was a clear/strong favorite to come out of the West the past 4 years (including this year). Your argument points to LAL facing teams with 50+ wins. Just because those opponents may have been better than the J.Kidd's Nets competition, that doesn't mean that Kidd didn't have a difficult road. Look,the recent LAL teams clearly had enough weapons to dismantle any team in the West, regardless of those teams having a 50+ win season. LAL was above their competition, just like the Nets was above theirs. Back then it was, West: 50+ to 60+ win teams versus each other, while the East: 40+ to 50+ win teams versus each other. Record-wise, competition seemed fair, but there will always be strong favorites in any conference (e.g. LAL and NJ).

AIRMAR72
06-13-2011, 05:51 AM
top 10-15 alltime as a PG it took kidd about 13yrs to develop a consistant jumpshot his attribute was is strength, size(beefyness) ,IQ, court vision and a natural team leader he always made average players better than they really were kinda similar to rando(rondo style is more like da glove) except rando is more athletic and quicker and a better rebounder

j-bay
06-13-2011, 07:32 AM
1.Magic
2.Stockton
3.Thomas
4.Payton
5.Kidd

payton taught kidd how to play basketball
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL4-mq3Mz8I

MFFL==FML
06-13-2011, 07:47 AM
1.) Gary Payton only won a ring after tagging along with Wade and Shaq. He kind of sucked the year he won. Jason Kidd was an integral part of the Mavericks championship run... Mavericks would not have even made it to the Finals if it weren't for Kidd.

2.) Jason Kidd: 40% FG, 35% 3 PT, 78% FT, 6.4 REB, 9.1 AST, 0.3 BLK, 2.0 STL, 13.2 PPG
Gary Payton: 47% FG, 32% 3 PT, 73% FT, 3.9 REB, 6.7AST, 0.2 BLK, 1.8 STL, 16.3 PPG

Jason Kidd wins in 3 PT shooting, FT shooting, blocks, steals and obliterating him in rebounds and assists. Payton has FG shooting and a few more points per game. Sorry, I'd rather have Kidd's stat line.

3.) In terms of impact and longevity, Kidd wins here too. Kidd is 38 years old and is still playing at a very high level.

4.) Both have been on defensive teams 9 times each, and even though Kidd has more All Star appearances and First Team selections.... Kidd is undefeated in International Competition (all gold). Payton failed twice and got silver. Kidd has better NBA stats as well as international competition record.

This really isn't even close.

MFFL==FML
06-13-2011, 07:48 AM
payton taught kidd how to play basketball
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL4-mq3Mz8I

So whoever taught Michael Jordan how to play basketball is better than him?

Kidd >>>>> Payton

Supreme LA
06-13-2011, 08:01 AM
1.Magic
2.Stockton
3.Thomas
4.Payton
5.Kidd

No way is Payton better than J-Kidd. Kidd is easily above him in almost every facet of the game and Kidd's defense is highly underrated. There is no way Payton could hold Lebron and Wade down like he did.

Heediot
06-13-2011, 08:06 AM
1. Oscar Robertson
2. Magic Johnson
3. I. Thomas
4. Kidd

cambovenzi
06-13-2011, 08:07 AM
No way is Payton better than J-Kidd. Kidd is easily above him in almost every facet of the game and Kidd's defense is highly underrated. There is no way Payton could hold Lebron and Wade down like he did.
You mean aside from scoring efficiency, scoring volume, defense and stealing?

MFFL==FML
06-13-2011, 08:09 AM
You mean aside from scoring efficiency, scoring volume, defense and stealing?

Kidd is a better 3 PT shooter, free throw shooter, rebounder, play-maker, shot blocker, and got more steals/game (2.0 against Payton's 1.8). Sorry, Kidd is quite easily better in almost ever way imaginable.

MFFL==FML
06-13-2011, 08:15 AM
Kidd shot 40% for his career FFS...
Never averaged 20 ppg.

Payton also has him in Steals and win shares, and has about 800 fewer turnovers.

I think he has a legitimate case over kidd.

WHERE THE HELL ARE PEOPLE GETTING THEIR STATS FROM?!? JASON KIDD IS RANKED 3RD IN STEALS, PAYTON IS 4TH! JASON KIDD HAS A BETTER CAREER WIN SHARE THAN PAYTON! THERE IS NOT A LEGITIMATE CASE!

People are just using stats that other posters are using. This is clear as day as they are 100% wrong!!!! Epic fail!!!

Not to mention, Jason Kidd has more turn overs BECAUSE HE MAKES MORE PLAYS FOR HIS TEAMMATES (aka assists). Jason Kidd has a BETTER assist to turnover ration than Payton. Jesus, you guys are kind of pissing me off. lol

Supreme LA
06-13-2011, 08:20 AM
Kidd is a better 3 PT shooter, free throw shooter, rebounder, play-maker, shot blocker, and got more steals/game (2.0 against Payton's 1.8). Sorry, Kidd is quite easily better in almost ever way imaginable.

^This.

Not to mention, Kidd is obviously the better passer, ball handler, and the smarter player with a much higher basketball IQ. I mean we are talking about PG's.

MFFL==FML
06-13-2011, 08:22 AM
^This.

Not to mention, Kidd is obviously the better passer, ball handler, and the smarter player with a much higher basketball IQ. I mean we are talking about PG's.

They are desperate to have Payton over Kidd. They don't even care that they were spewing illegitimate/untrue facts/stats. Pointless to debate with them.

JayW_1023
06-13-2011, 08:29 AM
just a brilliant basketball mind. few could dominate without scoring a single point like j-kidd in his prime. he was so fast and controlled as a transition player and i love how he retooled his game as a shooter and half court facilitator.

cambovenzi
06-13-2011, 08:45 AM
Kidd is a better 3 PT shooter, free throw shooter, rebounder, play-maker, shot blocker, and got more steals/game (2.0 against Payton's 1.8). Sorry, Kidd is quite easily better in almost ever way imaginable.
Yet he gets buried in overall FG% and scoring and win shares.

WHERE THE HELL ARE PEOPLE GETTING THEIR STATS FROM?!? JASON KIDD IS RANKED 3RD IN STEALS, PAYTON IS 4TH! JASON KIDD HAS A BETTER CAREER WIN SHARE THAN PAYTON! THERE IS NOT A LEGITIMATE CASE!

People are just using stats that other posters are using. This is clear as day as they are 100% wrong!!!! Epic fail!!!

Not to mention, Jason Kidd has more turn overs BECAUSE HE MAKES MORE PLAYS FOR HIS TEAMMATES (aka assists). Jason Kidd has a BETTER assist to turnover ration than Payton. Jesus, you guys are kind of pissing me off. lol
They average the same amount of steals per 36 mins.
A slight overlook on my part, as Payton is also one of the best stealers of all time.

csb on the better ast/To ratio. That is because Payton scored alot as well as created plays for others.
Kidd still turned the ball over a ridiculous amount of times more than payton, and about 50% more turnovers per 100 plays.


They are desperate to have Payton over Kidd. They don't even care that they were spewing illegitimate/untrue facts/stats. Pointless to debate with them.

Saying he is a "better playmaker" and "better in almost every way possible" is hardly factual.

Its funny how you guys just dismiss and ignore the vast scoring differences.

JayW_1023
06-13-2011, 08:52 AM
Kidd also was a better pure point guard than The Glove. Superior court vision. Defensively Payton was highly overrated actually, much better off the ball defender than on the ball. Kidd is great at both. Payton is a better scorer and that's it.

cambovenzi
06-13-2011, 09:01 AM
Kidd also was a better pure point guard than The Glove. Superior court vision. Defensively Payton was highly overrated actually, much better off the ball defender than on the ball. Kidd is great at both. Payton is a better scorer and that's it.

Only PG ever to win DPOY, 9x 1st team defense(tied for the record).
He was nicknamed "The Glove" FFS.

I think there is alot of people who would vehemently disagree with that assertion.

Payton was the complete package.
Kidd's scoring ability was severely lacking and inefficient for an alltime great. (or anyone really..)
That is kind of a big deal in case you didn't know.

JayW_1023
06-13-2011, 09:05 AM
Only PG ever to win DPOY, 9x 1st team defense(tied for the record).
He was nicknamed "The Glove" FFS.

I think there is alot of people who would vehemently disagree with that assertion.

Payton was the complete package.
Kidd's scoring ability was severely lacking and inefficient for an alltime great. (or anyone really..)

He was a menace in the passing lanes, but awards don't mean jack. Kobe won all defensive team this year while he was by far not the best defender this year.

Kidd remained a good defensive player far past his prime, contrary to Payton.

Scoring is the only thing Gary did significantly better and that's not enough to warrant him as a better player.

cambovenzi
06-13-2011, 09:06 AM
He was also much more durable playing in 79+ games 14 times, while kidd was in the 50s and 60s several times.

cambovenzi
06-13-2011, 09:08 AM
He was a menace in the passing lanes, but awards don't mean jack. Kobe won all defensive team this year while he was by far not the best defender this year.

Kidd remained a good defensive player far past his prime, contrary to Payton.

Scoring is the only thing Gary did significantly better and that's not enough to warrant him as a better player.

He played defense just as well or better.
He passed effectively.
He turned the ball over tons less.
I just mentioned he was much more durable.
and completely obliterated him in scoring.
scoring is not insignificant or something to blow off.

MFFL==FML
06-13-2011, 09:09 AM
Yet he gets buried in overall FG% and scoring and win shares.

They average the same amount of steals per 36 mins.
A slight overlook on my part, as Payton is also one of the best stealers of all time.

csb on the better ast/To ratio. That is because Payton scored alot as well as created plays for others.
Kidd still turned the ball over a ridiculous amount of times more than payton, and about 50% more turnovers per 100 plays.



Saying he is a "better playmaker" and "better in almost every way possible" is hardly factual.

Its funny how you guys just dismiss and ignore the vast scoring differences.

I'm not dismissing that at all. He was a great scorer in his prime. LOOK AT THE CAREER NUMBERS THOUGH. He averages about 3 more points per game. When discussing who has the greater career, YOU need to be careful not to dismiss Jason Kidd's longevity. You dismiss that. Also, once one stat you THINK helps your case proves to be flawed/not true, you then use the "per 36 min" argument. Like really? Wtf... Just admit Jason Kidd beats Payton in Steals and blocks, its not that hard. Once again... Kidd having a better ast/to ratio is vital when talking about the PG position. Kidd has a significantly higher BB IQ and creates more assists, so using turn overs to devalue kiss can only be accomplished by comparing assist/turnover ratios. Kidd wins once again. Even in your most desperate attempts, it's really not close.

JasonJohnHorn
06-13-2011, 09:10 AM
WHOA!! Slow down there champ. You ever here of a guy called John Stockton? Bob Cousy? Kevin Johnson? Steve Nash? Gary Payton? Norm Nixon? Gail Goodrich? Now, I'm not saying all those guys were or werent better than him, but Stockton and Magic are at one and two, I dont care which one you put first, and I can buy Thomas at three, but, I mean seriously. Kidd is amazing. Top ten at his position for sure, but top five? I dunno.

MFFL==FML
06-13-2011, 09:12 AM
He played defense just as well or better.
He passed effectively.
He turned the ball over tons less.
I just mentioned he was much more durable.
and completely obliterated him in scoring.
scoring is not insignificant or something to blow off.

Payton's defense faded as he got older. Look at Jason Kidd... he guarded Roy, Bryant, Durant, James, Wade... he is still a lock down defender at 38. Granted they have the same amount of defensive selections, Kidd is still a beast on defense.

Once again, we might "blow off" Payton's scoring... I think you just overrate it. 16 ppg compared to Kidd's 13? Not that significant. Kidd's longevity makes the gap exponentially bigger.

ewing
06-13-2011, 09:15 AM
Only PG ever to win DPOY, 9x 1st team defense(tied for the record).
He was nicknamed "The Glove" FFS.

I think there is alot of people who would vehemently disagree with that assertion.

Payton was the complete package.
Kidd's scoring ability was severely lacking and inefficient for an alltime great. (or anyone really..)
That is kind of a big deal in case you didn't know.



Kidd lead team were very efficient offensively and players who played with Kidd during his prime were significantly more efficient when they played with Kidd then when they changed scene for the payday that J kidd abilities created. If your a fan of the Glove that is fine but while Kidd lack of a J probably kept him from being the best player in the game during his prime it did not stop him from being a MVP caliber player.

JasonJohnHorn
06-13-2011, 09:15 AM
STOCKTON!!!! THERE IS A REASON KIDD IS SECOND FOR ASSISTS AND STEALS!! BECAUSE STOCKTON IS NUMBER ONE AND WILL BE FROM HERE TO ETERNITY!!!!

Jesus. No respect for the white guys. Come on.

You want to put Big O at PG, I won't argue having him and Magic above Stockton.

But Kidd?

ewing
06-13-2011, 09:17 AM
WHOA!! Slow down there champ. You ever here of a guy called John Stockton? Bob Cousy? Kevin Johnson? Steve Nash? Gary Payton? Norm Nixon? Gail Goodrich? Now, I'm not saying all those guys were or werent better than him, but Stockton and Magic are at one and two, I dont care which one you put first, and I can buy Thomas at three, but, I mean seriously. Kidd is amazing. Top ten at his position for sure, but top five? I dunno.



What did KJ have good 4 years? Norm Nixon? really. J Kidd was an MVP caliber player in his prime and is without a doubt a top 5 PG. How about adding Doc Rivers and John Bagley while were at it

Havoc Wreaker
06-13-2011, 09:22 AM
Jason.Frederick.Kidd

Havoc Wreaker
06-13-2011, 09:22 AM
STOCKTON!!!! THERE IS A REASON KIDD IS SECOND FOR ASSISTS AND STEALS!! BECAUSE STOCKTON IS NUMBER ONE AND WILL BE FROM HERE TO ETERNITY!!!!

Jesus. No respect for the white guys. Come on.

You want to put Big O at PG, I won't argue having him and Magic above Stockton.

But Kidd?
LoL.

I forgot Kidd was black :laugh2:

AnalyzeNShoot
06-13-2011, 09:27 AM
Gary Payton was a really good player. But kidd is a better leader and a better all around player. He took a NETs team to the Final Twice. Gary Payton had Shaq, Kobe, Malone and he didnt win a ring.

cambovenzi
06-13-2011, 09:27 AM
I'm not dismissing that at all. He was a great scorer in his prime. LOOK AT THE CAREER NUMBERS THOUGH. He averages about 3 more points per game. When discussing who has the greater career, YOU need to be careful not to dismiss Jason Kidd's longevity. You dismiss that. Also, once one stat you THINK helps your case proves to be flawed/not true, you then use the "per 36 min" argument. Like really? Wtf... Just admit Jason Kidd beats Payton in Steals and blocks, its not that hard. Once again... Kidd having a better ast/to ratio is vital when talking about the PG position. Kidd has a significantly higher BB IQ and creates more assists, so using turn overs to devalue kiss can only be accomplished by comparing assist/turnover ratios. Kidd wins once again. Even in your most desperate attempts, it's really not close.
Assists are not the only thing point guards are there for.

Payton still handled the ball on all the possessions he took shots.(~4000 more than Kidd)
Those were also opportunities for him to turn it over.
But you just want to sweep that under the rug. (effectively ignoring an ~800 turnover differential)


Payton's defense faded as he got older. Look at Jason Kidd... he guarded Roy, Bryant, Durant, James, Wade... he is still a lock down defender at 38. Granted they have the same amount of defensive selections, Kidd is still a beast on defense.

Once again, we might "blow off" Payton's scoring... I think you just overrate it. 16 ppg compared to Kidd's 13? Not that significant. Kidd's longevity makes the gap exponentially bigger.

In paytons late years he MPG dropped and you are using that to butcher his statistics.
In his prime he averaged 19PPG or more 9 straight seasons.
Something Kidd failed to do even once.
per 36 mins, he averaged nearly 4 points more than kidd.
Over the span of 1300 games and 47000 minutes you can bet your *** that is significant.

"Kidd's longevity" makes him better?
Payton has played more minutes and more games and was much less injury prone.. Kidd would have to put in another season.

JJ_JKidd
06-13-2011, 09:32 AM
No way is Payton better than J-Kidd. Kidd is easily above him in almost every facet of the game and Kidd's defense is highly underrated. There is no way Payton could hold Lebron and Wade down like he did.

Add: Kobe, Durant.

Here's what yall need to ponder on... Kidd was an integral part of a CHAMPIONSHIP team (Mavs'11), Payton was not.

Car Ramrod
06-13-2011, 09:35 AM
Stockton's defense is often overlooked. He wasn't fast but he got a ton of steals from knowing where to be. The smartest player on the floor at all times.

In his prime Gary Payton was the best defender in the NBA. I would have left Seattle too if I was watching Shawn Kemp throw away a HOF career.

Kidd has been a great player for a very long time but to rank him ahead of Stockton makes me wonder how many people actually saw Stockton play.

JJ_JKidd
06-13-2011, 09:36 AM
Those putting Payton above JKidd are Miami fans because, yeah, Payton helped them in a way during '06. And please, the JKidd-Nash was pretty lopsided (in favor of Kidd) even before Kidd won his first ring.

MFFL==FML
06-13-2011, 09:43 AM
Assists are not the only thing point guards are there for.

Payton still handled the ball on all the possessions he took shots.(~4000 more than Kidd)
Those were also opportunities for him to turn it over.
But you just want to sweep that under the rug. (effectively ignoring an ~800 turnover differential)



In paytons late years he MPG dropped and you are using that to butcher his statistics.
In his prime he averaged 19PPG or more 9 straight seasons.
Something Kidd failed to do even once.
per 36 mins, he averaged nearly 4 points more than kidd.
Over the span of 1300 games and 47000 minutes you can bet your *** that is significant.

"Kidd's longevity" makes him better?
Payton has played more minutes and more games and was much less injury prone.. Kidd would have to put in another season.

Dude!! Wtf are you talking about! I'm using career stats NOT to "butcher his statistics" but because career stats takes into account OVERALL TALENT as well as longevity!! Kidd will ALWAYS have more turnovers than him. I don't even know how you're arguing assist/turnover is not a good indicator when determining who turns it over more. You are essentially PENALIZING Kidd because he still kicks *** even in his late 30s, unlike Payton... great "logic" my friend...

MFFL==FML
06-13-2011, 09:46 AM
Those putting Payton above JKidd are Miami fans because, yeah, Payton helped them in a way during '06. And please, the JKidd-Nash was pretty lopsided (in favor of Kidd) even before Kidd won his first ring.

Payton, in comparison to Kidd in their respective championship year AND Finals series is like comparing Hedo Turkoglu's importance to Dwight Howards for the Orlando Magic team making the Finals a couple years ago. You are correct though. Jason Kidd > Payton 100 out of 100 times.

cambovenzi
06-13-2011, 09:49 AM
Dude!! Wtf are you talking about! I'm using career stats NOT to "butcher his statistics" but because career stats takes into account OVERALL TALENT as well as longevity!! Kidd will ALWAYS have more turnovers than him. I don't even know how you're arguing assist/turnover is not a good indicator when determining who turns it over more. You are essentially PENALIZING Kidd because he still kicks *** even in his late 30s, unlike Payton... great "logic" my friend...

What you said simply doesn't make any sense when applied to the facts and what I was saying.

Payton has played more minutes and more games with a higher usage% and has 800 fewer turnovers.

You are trying to ignore literally thousands of possessions by payton, and hundreds of turnovers by kidd and only focus on the assists.

Havoc Wreaker
06-13-2011, 09:51 AM
Pay no attention to Cambo, when it comes to sports, he has no idea what he's talking about :laugh2:

cambovenzi
06-13-2011, 09:54 AM
Pay no attention to Cambo, when it comes to sports, he has no idea what he's talking about :laugh2:



prove me wrong if you can. if not, shh scrub

Havoc Wreaker
06-13-2011, 10:01 AM
prove me wrong if you can. if not, shh scrub
Oliver Perez is all I'll say :p

Jason Kidd >>>>>>>>> Gary Payton.

Better passer, better rebounder, better defender and no doubt higher IQ.

JasonJohnHorn
06-13-2011, 10:02 AM
What did KJ have good 4 years? Norm Nixon? really. J Kidd was an MVP caliber player in his prime and is without a doubt a top 5 PG. How about adding Doc Rivers and John Bagley while were at it

Yes, KJ actually had only 3 good years. But he also had nine GREAT ONES! Do you even know Kevin Johnson? Over a nine year span he averaged no fewer than 7.7 assists, and four of those years was averaging double-digits in assists. His scoring average never dipped below 15.5 in those years. The guy was amazing! Six of those season he was 18+ and and four of them were 20 or <. KJ's best 6 seasons he socred more than Kidd EVER scored in his BEST season, and only tied KJ's 7th highest socring average. As for assists, well, 12.2 and 11.4 are both higher than anything Kidd ever posted. And KJ was a pubic hair away from averaging 50% from the field on his career. Only about 10% higher than Kidd. Kidd has longevity in his favour, I will concede. But KJ is a grossly underrated PG, and was a true team player who had no problem mentoring young PGs like Kidd and Nash, and taking a smaller role to help his teammates develop, hence the last couple seasons have lower numbers. The guy's career averages are 17.9 points and 9.1 assits. Kidd only ever exceed KJ's career socring average once. One season only. And they are tied for career assists average (Kidd's assist average is more impressive because of the number of years he's been playing, but had KJ wanted to play a larger roll for a longer period, he could have, but he had things other than basketball in his long term life plan, so he retired very young).

I won't argue with anybody who says Kidd is as good as KJ, I can get behind that, Kidd, though not as good a shooter, was a much better rebounder. Both have been great defenders throughout their careers, and KJ was CLEARLY the better scorer, and in his prime was a better playmaker. He played for some deep teams, and so took on smaller scoring role and let other guys have more time with the ball.

And Nixon was good enough at PG that Magic had to play SG for the first half of his career. A grossly underrated player as well.

Regardless though, I didnt say these guys were ALL better than Kidd (though Stockton, Magic, Thomas, Payton, Cousy,Robertson and Kevin Johnson all are), I just said they were in the conversation. For the record, I'd take Kidd over Goodrich, Nixon, and just about anybody else I can think of, other than the aforementioned.

John Bagley... lol.

cambovenzi
06-13-2011, 10:02 AM
Oliver Perez is all I'll say :p

Jason Kidd >>>>>>>>> Gary Payton.

You act like this is supposed to mean something.

Oh you claim kidd is much better with no evidence.
now I believe you :rolleyes:

MFFL==FML
06-13-2011, 10:05 AM
What you said simply doesn't make any sense when applied to the facts and what I was saying.

Payton has played more minutes and more games with a higher usage% and has 800 fewer turnovers.

You are trying to ignore literally thousands of possessions by payton, and hundreds of turnovers by kidd and only focus on the assists.

I'm focusing on overall contributions, leadership, offense, defense, play-making, international play, consistency, contribution towards a championship, etc... This encompasses from the day they were drafted to the NBA to the day they retired/today. You are only using a limited and ultra specific stats to help your case. Even then, Kidd still wins.

cambovenzi
06-13-2011, 10:07 AM
I'm focusing on overall contributions, leadership, offense, defense, play-making, international play, consistency, contribution towards a championship, etc... This encompasses from the day they were drafted to the NBA to the day they retired/today. You are only using a limited and ultra specific stats to help your case. Even then, Kidd still wins.

5000 more points with a much better shooting percentage and 800 fewer turnovers

let me know

BDawk4Prez
06-13-2011, 10:09 AM
Ahead of Stockton and Payton.

Payton, really? Gary Payton?

killbumdeluxe13
06-13-2011, 10:11 AM
1) Magic
2) Oscar Robertson
3) J-Kidd

Havoc Wreaker
06-13-2011, 10:14 AM
5000 more points with a much better shooting percentage and 800 fewer turnovers

let me know
2,000 more assists, 3,000 more rebounds, 200 more blocks, better 3 PT shooter.

Again. Better passer, better defender, higher IQ.

Sly Guy
06-13-2011, 10:14 AM
1 Magic
2 O Robertson
3 Stokcton
4 Isiah thomas
5 Bob Cousy
6 Jason Kidd

this is the best list posted so far.

@ the poster who had Kidd ahead of Stockton based on a single championship: com'on. That's rediculous.

Havoc Wreaker
06-13-2011, 10:17 AM
this is the best list posted so far.

@ the poster who had Kidd ahead of Stockton based on a single championship: com'on. That's rediculous.

I would agree, but I don't know what that means.

cambovenzi
06-13-2011, 10:22 AM
2,000 more assists, 3,000 more rebounds, 200 more blocks, better 3 PT shooter.

Again. Better passer, better defender, higher IQ.

Who cares about 3 pt shooting if he gets buried in eFG%?
Many of them were just open looks because he cant shoot well and only does so pretty scarcely.

Yeah OK he passed more for more assists.

To me the ridiculous scoring and turnover differentials are not more than offset by 2000 assists.

Better defender? yeah right. If I called it a wash that would be generous.
Higher IQ? :rolleyes:

Havoc Wreaker
06-13-2011, 10:23 AM
Who cares about 3 pt shooting if he gets buried in eFG%?
Many of them were just wide open looks because he cant shoot well.

Yeah OK he passed more for more assists.

To me the ridiculous scoring and turnover differentials are not more than offset by 2000 assists.

Better defender? yeah right. If I called it a wash that would be generous.
Higher IQ? :rolleyes:
Ok. :)

Swashcuff
06-13-2011, 10:46 AM
1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. John Stockton
4. Isiah Thomas
5. Jason Kidd

JJ_JKidd
06-13-2011, 10:51 AM
Man, how do we say that player A is better than player B? :confused: We all talk about who's better, yet we dont even know how to categorize who is better.

BDawk4Prez
06-13-2011, 10:52 AM
The ring is all that kept Kidd below Stockton, IMO.

Like it or not, we live in an era where we have to at least consider some recognition going to guys with rings, within reason that is.

Jarvo
06-13-2011, 10:58 AM
Dang easy on me, I'm not LeBrick... Gary is the best D PG IMO so I think he is better than kidd... 1-1 Gary will **** Kidd up...

Again IMO...

People just stuck in the moment now the glove is better than kidd

Swashcuff
06-13-2011, 11:00 AM
The ring is all that kept Kidd below Stockton, IMO.

Like it or not, we live in an era where we have to at least consider some recognition going to guys with rings, within reason that is.

:confused:

I know its your opinion.... but is this an opinion that holds true for other players as well?

Say now if Nash wins a championship next season, is he ahead of Stockton as well?

Kidd was a HUGE part of this championship don't get me wrong but does winning a ring as a 38 year old role player really hold such great ground in putting him over Stockton?

MFFL==FML
06-13-2011, 11:05 AM
5000 more points with a much better shooting percentage and 800 fewer turnovers

let me know

Letting you know: more rebounds, more assists, more blocks, more steals, better 3 point percentage, better free throw percentage, higher basketball IQ, integral to championship, better play-maker, better leader


let me know

Jarvo
06-13-2011, 11:06 AM
This dumb because this is everyone own opinion so why go back and forth with people.

BDawk4Prez
06-13-2011, 11:07 AM
:confused:

I know its your opinion.... but is this an opinion that holds true for other players as well?

Say now if Nash wins a championship next season, is he ahead of Stockton as well?

Kidd was a HUGE part of this championship don't get me wrong but does winning a ring as a 38 year old role player really hold such great ground in putting him over Stockton?

If you look at my final comment, I said within reason. Would that put Nash up there, no.

And role player, really? Kidd was just as big a part as anyone this postseason.

MFFL==FML
06-13-2011, 11:09 AM
This dumb because this is everyone own opinion so why go back and forth with people.

He wants to use 2 statistics to prove Payton is better than Kidd. Little does he know one of the points is counter-productive to his cause.

I have an entire list of reasons and statistics to prove. He just wants to keep ignoring them.

Swashcuff
06-13-2011, 11:11 AM
If you look at my final comment, I said within reason. Would that put Nash up there, no.

And role player, really? Kidd was just as big a part as anyone this postseason.

I said the very same... he played a HUGE role... So did Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion, JJ Barea and Jason Terry among others. Jason Kidd is no longer a star calibre player.

If he isn't a role player at this moment in his career what would you call him?

ewing
06-13-2011, 11:22 AM
Yes, KJ actually had only 3 good years. But he also had nine GREAT ONES! Do you even know Kevin Johnson? Over a nine year span he averaged no fewer than 7.7 assists, and four of those years was averaging double-digits in assists. His scoring average never dipped below 15.5 in those years. The guy was amazing! Six of those season he was 18+ and and four of them were 20 or <. KJ's best 6 seasons he socred more than Kidd EVER scored in his BEST season, and only tied KJ's 7th highest socring average. As for assists, well, 12.2 and 11.4 are both higher than anything Kidd ever posted. And KJ was a pubic hair away from averaging 50% from the field on his career. Only about 10% higher than Kidd. Kidd has longevity in his favour, I will concede. But KJ is a grossly underrated PG, and was a true team player who had no problem mentoring young PGs like Kidd and Nash, and taking a smaller role to help his teammates develop, hence the last couple seasons have lower numbers. The guy's career averages are 17.9 points and 9.1 assits. Kidd only ever exceed KJ's career socring average once. One season only. And they are tied for career assists average (Kidd's assist average is more impressive because of the number of years he's been playing, but had KJ wanted to play a larger roll for a longer period, he could have, but he had things other than basketball in his long term life plan, so he retired very young).

I won't argue with anybody who says Kidd is as good as KJ, I can get behind that, Kidd, though not as good a shooter, was a much better rebounder. Both have been great defenders throughout their careers, and KJ was CLEARLY the better scorer, and in his prime was a better playmaker. He played for some deep teams, and so took on smaller scoring role and let other guys have more time with the ball.

And Nixon was good enough at PG that Magic had to play SG for the first half of his career. A grossly underrated player as well.

Regardless though, I didnt say these guys were ALL better than Kidd (though Stockton, Magic, Thomas, Payton, Cousy,Robertson and Kevin Johnson all are), I just said they were in the conversation. For the record, I'd take Kidd over Goodrich, Nixon, and just about anybody else I can think of, other than the aforementioned.

John Bagley... lol.


KJ was a great player unfortuantely he only had about a 4 year span where he played enough games without getting hurt to be considered an top of the food chain type player. From 92- 98 he only toped 65 games played twice. Sorry but you cant have a great year when you only play 45 or 50 games. Even healthy I dont think he was better then J Kidd. I do see how someone could make the agruement however IF he was able to stay on the court over his career. Unfortunately he wasn't.

BritneysBestBet
06-13-2011, 11:40 AM
#1 for sure! Best all round point guard ever!

BDawk4Prez
06-13-2011, 11:40 AM
I said the very same... he played a HUGE role... So did Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion, JJ Barea and Jason Terry among others. Jason Kidd is no longer a star calibre player.

If he isn't a role player at this moment in his career what would you call him?

I call him the starting PG of the new NBA champs. :)

KingPosey
06-13-2011, 11:43 AM
Oh, no doubt, GP was the truth. In Kidd's early days I hated when Kidd had to play GP, because he (Kidd) always got schooled. Gary was the top PG for many years, IMO. However, my debate is with overall career achievements/statistics/records. It is very much debatable on where they are positioned on the all-time pg list. Also, GP (in his prime) may have been a better overall defender than Kidd (in his prime)...but do you think GP at 38 yrs old could effectively guard Kobe, Durant, Westbrook, Wade or LBJ???

and what people dont remember, and all these opinionated young guys that never saw play cant know from sight, is how absolutely suffocating GP's defense was. He was as lock down as they come.

Swashcuff
06-13-2011, 11:46 AM
I call him the starting PG of the new NBA champs. :)

Lol.... fair.

KingPosey
06-13-2011, 11:47 AM
No way is Payton better than J-Kidd. Kidd is easily above him in almost every facet of the game and Kidd's defense is highly underrated. There is no way Payton could hold Lebron and Wade down like he did.

First of all, Kidd didnt hold Wade down thats for damn sure, and second, LBJ just didnt play, he didnt get shut dow.

And of course GP wouldnt guard LBJ, he is 6'8 250, and GP is the size of a normal PG, it would be stupid for him to guard Lebron. And GP was as equipped to guard Wade as anyone else.

GP is a way better defender than Kidd ever was, and actually better at a lot of different things than Kidd.

Im not saying he IS better, but your post is misinformed.

GiantsSwaGG
06-13-2011, 11:57 AM
payton taught kidd how to play basketball
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL4-mq3Mz8I

:facepalm:

KingPosey
06-13-2011, 11:58 AM
Letting you know: more rebounds, more assists, more blocks, more steals, better 3 point percentage, better free throw percentage, higher basketball IQ, integral to championship, better play-maker, better leader


let me know

dont start throwing out stuff that you cannot quantify, and is an opinion.

And GP's role on Miami wasnt near as big as Kidd's now, but he played a solid back up, and really a lot of games played the 4th quarter while JW sat. Kidd didnt have a great finals, so lets not go crazy. He was solid, but he didnt play well in a few games.

PhillyFaninLA
06-13-2011, 12:20 PM
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Stockton
4. Isiah
5. Cousy
6. Frazier
7. Kidd

I'm not disrespecting Kidd I just believe the others are better....I was think of switching Frazier and Kidd though.

edit: The ring does not change my opinion. Rings are circumstantial. Great players may not win a ring because they aren't in the right place at the right time. Kidd is great and really anywhere from 4 - 7 is ok in my book. Kidd isn't better today then he was yesterday at this time and his career and legacy was well established before yesterday.

KingPosey
06-13-2011, 12:25 PM
^
With names like that its hard to say you are disrespecting Kidd. Those are HOFs as well up there.

Tarheels23
06-13-2011, 12:32 PM
Magic
O
Thomas
Stockton
Fraizer
Cooz
Kidd
Nash
Glove

cambovenzi
06-13-2011, 01:08 PM
The guy shoots under 40% in his playoff career and this year as a role player and people are crowning him >_<

Who needs offense when you can jump in front of your forwards and get a rebound amiright?

SACNYY
06-13-2011, 01:29 PM
1.) Gary Payton only won a ring after tagging along with Wade and Shaq. He kind of sucked the year he won. Jason Kidd was an integral part of the Mavericks championship run... Mavericks would not have even made it to the Finals if it weren't for Kidd.

2.) Jason Kidd: 40% FG, 35% 3 PT, 78% FT, 6.4 REB, 9.1 AST, 0.3 BLK, 2.0 STL, 13.2 PPG
Gary Payton: 47% FG, 32% 3 PT, 73% FT, 3.9 REB, 6.7AST, 0.2 BLK, 1.8 STL, 16.3 PPG

Jason Kidd wins in 3 PT shooting, FT shooting, blocks, steals and obliterating him in rebounds and assists. Payton has FG shooting and a few more points per game. Sorry, I'd rather have Kidd's stat line.

3.) In terms of impact and longevity, Kidd wins here too. Kidd is 38 years old and is still playing at a very high level.

4.) Both have been on defensive teams 9 times each, and even though Kidd has more All Star appearances and First Team selections.... Kidd is undefeated in International Competition (all gold). Payton failed twice and got silver. Kidd has better NBA stats as well as international competition record.

This really isn't even close.

Thanks for posting this. Kidd>>>Payton

GiantsSwaGG
06-13-2011, 01:32 PM
But if you really think about it Oscar is better then Magic...

Its close but I think Oscar is better the more I think about it!

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 02:45 PM
I posted this earlier on the GP/Kidd debate:

It's a good debate between them but I'd give GP the edge.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kiddja01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoga01.html

Look at their peaks, and GP was better in terms of PER, TS%, eFG%, TOV%, ORtg, WS and WS/48. In the playoffs, neither of them were that great but GP was probably better in his peak in the playoffs then Kidd too. Defensively, I'd give the edge to GP too. I'll give you the fact that Kidd was the better PURE PG but overall, I'd still give the edge to GP. One other edge for GP is that he was much less turnover prone then Kidd.

To go further in depth, I've taken Kidd's and Payton's 3 best seasons in terms of WS/48 and we can see here that Payton was better at his best:


Kidd PER WS/48 WS TS%
98-99 22.5 0.188 8.1 52.7
2002-03 22.2 0.182 11.3 52.6
2006-06 19.2 0.163 10.1 52.6



Payton PER WS/48 WS TS%
99-00 23.6 0.195 13.9 53.5
96-97 21.8 0.193 12.9 54.5
97-98 21.6 0.190 12.5 54.4


While Payton's PER numbers are lower, he did have 2 other seasons where he posted PER's of 23.1 and 22.9 which would've been career highs for Kidd had he done that in any season. So even when going by PER, Payton's 3 best seasons are better then Kidd's 3 best seasons.

In terms of peak, Payton's 5 best consecutive seasons, he had a total of 58 win shares from 95-96 to 99-00. In Kidd's 5 best consecutive seasons, he had a total of 46.4 win shares. If you look at their PER numbers or WS/48 numbers, it's also obvious that Payton's peak (5 best consecutive seasons) is better then Kidd's peak.

For career totals, Payton has more win shares, a higher WS/48 and a higher PER.

The great equalizer between these 2 would be the playoffs, where Kidd's career numbers are better. However, again if you look at them in their peaks (or 3 best seasons), Payton's playoff #'s are better or comparable to Kidd.

In the end, while it might be close, Payton is no doubt better. He's better with respect to longevity (higher WS, WS/48, PER, ORtg, TS%) and he was better in his peak (either 3 best seasons or 5 consecutive seasons). There is no doubt Kidd was the better PURE PG, since he passed on a greater % of his passes but he was also much more turnover prone then the Glove. But just because Kidd passed more, it doesn't mean he's the better PG (or player). In terms of bringing value/total production to the table, Payton brought more value/total production then Kidd did.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 02:51 PM
The guy shoots under 40% in his playoff career and this year as a role player and people are crowning him >_<

Who needs offense when you can jump in front of your forwards and get a rebound amiright?

Not only that but Kidd had a TOV% of 24.3 this year in the playoffs, which is not at all good. And his rebounding% were nothing great this year. Ironically, he shot the ball very well but anyone who watched the Mavs this year in the playoffs knows those were just wide open shots. His usage% is below average so from that you can obviously tell, he was more of a role player vs. important player. Heck, Barea had a higher USG% then Kidd in the playoffs.

desertrat218
06-13-2011, 03:07 PM
Tough call. It's hard to compare current players with guys from the past. There was a time when they played fewer regular season games and those old Celtics with all those rings never played more than 2 rounds in a post-season. The way the games are officiated has also changed dramatically. Even the assists numbers are skewed in that in the past if a player dribbled one time after receiving a pass before scoring, there was no assist. They also used to call travelling when you took 3 steps but now everyone does it. Comparing today's guys with guys from the past is always going to be difficult. Kidd has played a long time and has been a great PG for a long time. Hall of Famer for sure!

MFFL==FML
06-13-2011, 05:36 PM
I posted this earlier on the GP/Kidd debate:

It's a good debate between them but I'd give GP the edge.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kiddja01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paytoga01.html

Look at their peaks, and GP was better in terms of PER, TS%, eFG%, TOV%, ORtg, WS and WS/48. In the playoffs, neither of them were that great but GP was probably better in his peak in the playoffs then Kidd too. Defensively, I'd give the edge to GP too. I'll give you the fact that Kidd was the better PURE PG but overall, I'd still give the edge to GP. One other edge for GP is that he was much less turnover prone then Kidd.

To go further in depth, I've taken Kidd's and Payton's 3 best seasons in terms of WS/48 and we can see here that Payton was better at his best:


Kidd PER WS/48 WS TS%
98-99 22.5 0.188 8.1 52.7
2002-03 22.2 0.182 11.3 52.6
2006-06 19.2 0.163 10.1 52.6



Payton PER WS/48 WS TS%
99-00 23.6 0.195 13.9 53.5
96-97 21.8 0.193 12.9 54.5
97-98 21.6 0.190 12.5 54.4


While Payton's PER numbers are lower, he did have 2 other seasons where he posted PER's of 23.1 and 22.9 which would've been career highs for Kidd had he done that in any season. So even when going by PER, Payton's 3 best seasons are better then Kidd's 3 best seasons.

In terms of peak, Payton's 5 best consecutive seasons, he had a total of 58 win shares from 95-96 to 99-00. In Kidd's 5 best consecutive seasons, he had a total of 46.4 win shares. If you look at their PER numbers or WS/48 numbers, it's also obvious that Payton's peak (5 best consecutive seasons) is better then Kidd's peak.

For career totals, Payton has more win shares, a higher WS/48 and a higher PER.

The great equalizer between these 2 would be the playoffs, where Kidd's career numbers are better. However, again if you look at them in their peaks (or 3 best seasons), Payton's playoff #'s are better or comparable to Kidd.

In the end, while it might be close, Payton is no doubt better. He's better with respect to longevity (higher WS, WS/48, PER, ORtg, TS%) and he was better in his peak (either 3 best seasons or 5 consecutive seasons). There is no doubt Kidd was the better PURE PG, since he passed on a greater % of his passes but he was also much more turnover prone then the Glove. But just because Kidd passed more, it doesn't mean he's the better PG (or player). In terms of bringing value/total production to the table, Payton brought more value/total production then Kidd did.

Does a players career come down to 3 seasons? Then why are you doing it? Kidd's longevity is incredibly devalued by Payton supporters. It is kind of disgusting.

blahblahyoutoo
06-13-2011, 06:01 PM
kidd's ebonics isn't as good as paytons.
that's crucial for street cred.

advantage payton.

SluggeR
06-13-2011, 06:15 PM
Kidd has been a phenom since his days at Cal. Look back at those Nets teams he took to back-2-back Championships and you can really get an understanding of his greatness.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 06:47 PM
Does a players career come down to 3 seasons? Then why are you doing it? Kidd's longevity is incredibly devalued by Payton supporters. It is kind of disgusting.

Can you not read? :facepalm:

Since you missed or skipped that part of my post, I'll spell it out for you:

Career totals:
Payton's career PER: 18.9
Kidd's career PER: 18.2

Payton's career EWA (Estimated Wins Added which is based on PER (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics)): 185.2
Kidd's career EWA: 167.2

Payton's career Win Shares total: 145.5
Kidd's career Win Shares total: 130.1

Payton's career WS/48: .148
Kidd's career WS/48: .134

You really don't know anything about Gary Payton do you? The guy played 17 seasons in the NBA, THE EXACT SAME NUMBER that Kidd has played. Now admittedly, GP's last 2 seasons were below average whereas Kidd's haven't been. But still, thats 15 vs. 17, not a big difference. GP actually had a nice long career. Obviously Kidd is still playing but you can only go on what he has done so far.

At least I have a criteria for measuring players (career totals, best 3 seasons, 5 peak years, to give you an idea for longevity, peak and the player at his best). What are you looking at? Useless stats like assists per game? lol :facepalm:

Oh and this idea that Kidd was an integral part to the Mavs winning a championship? lmao. He was a role player. Clearly, you're a huge Kidd fan. I have no preference or allegiance to either of them. I call it the way I see it. I'm not biased one way or another as you appear to be. And I am by no means a Kidd hater, as I had him above Isiah and at the #5 best PG of all-time, which is high praise. None of this changes the fact that in terms of career value (total WS for example), he's behind GP and in terms of peak, he's behind GP. What he does have on GP is a better overall playoff performance but as I said in my original post, in their peak, GP was still better in the playoffs.

Ebbs
06-13-2011, 08:21 PM
Magic
Oscar
Nash/Kidd
Kidd/Nash
Stockton
Isiah

GiantsSwaGG
06-13-2011, 08:25 PM
1. Oscar
2. Magic
3. Kidd
4. Isiah
5. Stockton

LakersA's49ers
06-13-2011, 08:32 PM
1. Oscar
2. Magic
3. Kidd
4. Isiah
5. Stockton

right 5 players different order for me.

1.OR
2.MJ
3.JS
4.Isaiah
5.JK

knicks4life33
06-13-2011, 08:36 PM
you can say kidd is top 7 definatley but the order is difficult to put together and 1 is magic johnson and 2 is john stockton and after that is where it gets tricky

Testaverde16
06-13-2011, 08:38 PM
Magic, Robertson, Kidd, Thomas, Stockton

GiantsSwaGG
06-13-2011, 08:42 PM
right 5 players different order for me.

1.OR
2.MJ
3.JS
4.Isaiah
5.JK

I think Kidd is a more complete PG then Stockton...And people don't realize how great Oscar is...talent alone Magic isn't even touching Oscar!

Swashcuff
06-13-2011, 08:45 PM
I think Kidd is a more complete PG then Stockton...And people don't realize how great Oscar is...talent alone Magic isn't even touching Oscar!

6'9 PG winning the NBA Finals MVP as a rookie? You talking about talent? Magic would have made an absolute killing had he played in the 60s. Magic is one of the most talented players in this history of the game.

GiantsSwaGG
06-13-2011, 09:01 PM
6'9 PG winning the NBA Finals MVP as a rookie? You talking about talent? Magic would have made an absolute killing had he played in the 60s. Magic is one of the most talented players in this history of the game.

Idk he was playing against Chamberlin, Russell, West etc...Robertson was a beast still the only guy to average a triple in 2 seasons. You can say he was Lebron James b4 Lebron James, but was a better clutch player:)

Hawkeye15
06-13-2011, 09:04 PM
Magic
Stockton
Oscar
Payton
Kidd

that is my top 5. And for overall rankings, Kidd is probably to 35 or so.

Swashcuff
06-13-2011, 09:05 PM
Idk he was playing against Chamberlin, Russell, West etc...Robertson was a beast still the only guy to average a triple in 2 seasons. You can say he was Lebron James b4 Lebron James, but was a better clutch player:)

Firstly he avged a triple double only once in his 2nd season in the league and the game was way different when he played as compared to when Magic played. Had Magic started his career in the 60s he too could have easily average a triple double seeing that he'd be the tallest playing on the court 80% of the time.

GiantsSwaGG
06-13-2011, 09:17 PM
Firstly he avged a triple double only once in his 2nd season in the league and the game was way different when he played as compared to when Magic played. Had Magic started his career in the 60s he too could have easily average a triple double seeing that he'd be the tallest playing on the court 80% of the time.

Alright but if he was playing in the 60's, they probably wouldn't even let him play PG...If you were tall back then, you were automatically a Pf or C!

Tony_Starks
06-13-2011, 09:21 PM
Magic
Stockton
Oscar
Kidd
Nash

Hawkeye15
06-13-2011, 09:23 PM
Alright but if he was playing in the 60's, they probably wouldn't even let him play PG...If you were tall back then, you were automatically a Pf or C!

If you are 6'9" today, they still attempt to force you into PF. I don't like trying to take players back in a time machine and placing them amongst the old timers.

Fact is, Magic averaged nearly a triple double in an era that had a MUCH slower pace. THAT is why we can assume that if he played in the 60's, he was a 25-15-13 player. Give Magic 30 more possession per game, and his numbers inflate.

Swashcuff
06-13-2011, 09:25 PM
Alright but if he was playing in the 60's, they probably wouldn't even let him play PG...If you were tall back then, you were automatically a Pf or C!

And he would have been the most skilled C in the game and STILL average near a triple dip.... he'd be a better passing version of late 60s Wilt when he lead the league in total assists. Either way he is the most uniquely talented player in the history of the game.

GiantsSwaGG
06-13-2011, 09:27 PM
If you are 6'9" today, they still attempt to force you into PF. I don't like trying to take players back in a time machine and placing them amongst the old timers.

Fact is, Magic averaged nearly a triple double in an era that had a MUCH slower pace. THAT is why we can assume that if he played in the 60's, he was a 25-15-13 player. Give Magic 30 more possession per game, and his numbers inflate.

Me either...But you make a fair assumption.

cambovenzi
06-14-2011, 04:37 AM
Can you not read? :facepalm:

Since you missed or skipped that part of my post, I'll spell it out for you:

Career totals:
Payton's career PER: 18.9
Kidd's career PER: 18.2

Payton's career EWA (Estimated Wins Added which is based on PER (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics)): 185.2
Kidd's career EWA: 167.2

Payton's career Win Shares total: 145.5
Kidd's career Win Shares total: 130.1

Payton's career WS/48: .148
Kidd's career WS/48: .134

You really don't know anything about Gary Payton do you? The guy played 17 seasons in the NBA, THE EXACT SAME NUMBER that Kidd has played. Now admittedly, GP's last 2 seasons were below average whereas Kidd's haven't been. But still, thats 15 vs. 17, not a big difference. GP actually had a nice long career. Obviously Kidd is still playing but you can only go on what he has done so far.

At least I have a criteria for measuring players (career totals, best 3 seasons, 5 peak years, to give you an idea for longevity, peak and the player at his best). What are you looking at? Useless stats like assists per game? lol :facepalm:

Oh and this idea that Kidd was an integral part to the Mavs winning a championship? lmao. He was a role player. Clearly, you're a huge Kidd fan. I have no preference or allegiance to either of them. I call it the way I see it. I'm not biased one way or another as you appear to be. And I am by no means a Kidd hater, as I had him above Isiah and at the #5 best PG of all-time, which is high praise. None of this changes the fact that in terms of career value (total WS for example), he's behind GP and in terms of peak, he's behind GP. What he does have on GP is a better overall playoff performance but as I said in my original post, in their peak, GP was still better in the playoffs.
#Winning

JasonJohnHorn
06-14-2011, 08:48 AM
Here's how I see it. Kidd lead two teams to the finals. That is an amazing feat. However, in my opinion, it is dilluted by how weak the east was each of those years, and it shows in the 2-8 record he had in the finals. Honestly, in 02, the record the Nets had that got them homecourt throughout the East, wouldnt have even gotten them home court in the first round in the west. Everybody knows the league was EXTREMELY lopsided then. In 03, the team with the best record in the east, would have had the 7th seed in the west, and NJ wouldnt have even made the playoff with their record. so lets not go heaping too much craziness on to that accomplishments. Its not like when Stockton and Malone had to battle through Shaq and Hakeem to get to the finals one year, and Robinson/Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem the year after, before losing to Jordan. Their path to the finals was almost as easy as a lay up (comparatively speaking). As for his finals performance this year, it is much like Payton in LA or Miami. He played a BIG role. HUGE role. I am not down playing it. Insert Nash there, and you could have a very different outcome (Kidd's defence on guys like Wade James and the PG position gave the Mavs tools they wouldnt have had with Nash, though Nash could have had them scoring more... who knows). But regardless, if Stockton at 40 was playing on this team, he would have had the same kind of impact. Solid play making. Solid defence (though not as versatile), great shooting and few turnovers. Just because Kidd was lucky enough to get bounced around to a couple good situations does not make him better than Stockton.

This is not a quantifiable thing. You cant prove it one way or the other. If you asked me, who had the better career? I'd say Stockton. If you asked me which PGs I'd take to start a team with, and gave me a list of guys all in their prime, i would choose: Robertson, Magic, Stockton, Thomas, Payton, Derrick Rose, CP3, D-Will, Kevin Johnson all over Kidd. Kidd is a niche player. He's great all around, AMAZING HUSSLE!!!!! He knows how to drive his teammates to perform well. There are all kinds of things that dont show up on paper that Kidd does. But he comes with his own set of problems as well. Up until his return to Dallas, he was never a great shooter outside of the three point shot. He has improved that part of his game over the last two year immensely. He is a far better rebounder than most PGs to ever play, but if I was starting a team, I'd take all those guys before Kidd at point. His career may have been better than some of these guys, some of these guys are young, some havent been as lucky to be on a winner (and there is a great deal of luck to go along with the hard work).

Guys like Nash, I'd say he's even with. Guys like Earl the Pearl or Walt Fraizer (SG/PG, whatever), even IVERSON, I dont think they got $#!T on Kidd. Penny Hardaway was a better player before he got injured, but he got injured. If you gave me a choice between a healthy Penny and Kidd, i'd take Penny every time.

So it all depends on how much that ring means to you, and how much peek prime years mean, and how much longevity means, and how much numbers mean

Bottom line he is one of the best to play the game. I'm not putting him in the top five, but he is in great company.