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kArSoN RyDaH
06-12-2011, 11:20 PM
I'd definitely be okay with placing him in the top 25 maybe 20. You?

LTBaByyy
06-12-2011, 11:21 PM
Top 20 def with that Finals MVP and those come backs clutch plays

Miami shouldve won that series 4-0 if it wasnt for Dirk

alencp3
06-12-2011, 11:25 PM
he wasnt even top 6 PF of all time before the playoffs and now he is top 20 ???
get real

DoJoTheSlasher
06-12-2011, 11:29 PM
Top 25 probably top 20.

And alen, he was a top 5 PF of all time and now is possibly 3rd or 4th.

Sadds The Gr8
06-12-2011, 11:30 PM
top 25

Hawkeye15
06-12-2011, 11:32 PM
Dirk was already top 20 before the finals started. He is now top 15, for sure

Mile High Champ
06-12-2011, 11:33 PM
I love Dirk but both Tim Duncan and Karl Malone are still ahead of him for me.

FriedTofuz
06-12-2011, 11:34 PM
Best shooting big man all time. Ranked 20th all time. Currently playing as the Best power forward in the nba. Tim duncan is still the best power forward to ever play the game though.

FriedTofuz
06-12-2011, 11:35 PM
Dirk was already top 20 before the finals started. He is now top 15, for sure

how does one ring jump him ahead 5 all time greats? who are these 5 other players that hes clearly better than?

kArSoN RyDaH
06-12-2011, 11:36 PM
PFs All Time Hawkeye what's your list look like. PFs only.

DoJoTheSlasher
06-12-2011, 11:38 PM
1. Tim Duncan
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Karl Malone
5. Charles Barkley


I think he's second actually.

HouRealCoach
06-12-2011, 11:40 PM
I dont think he is top 15 now...

He maybe Top 25... I know he can shoot but he doesnt have good shot selection, doesnt rebound good, and also dont have good defense, I dont even think he is a top 5 PF ever...

DoJoTheSlasher
06-12-2011, 11:40 PM
Idk. Malone had like 36000 points and like 10000 rebounds but Dirk has a ring now and will be top 5 in points after his career.

HouRealCoach
06-12-2011, 11:41 PM
1. Tim Duncan
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Karl Malone
5. Charles Barkley


I think he's second actually.

Shooting is the only thing he could do better than Garnett, and he is not better than Barkley or Malone

Ace23
06-12-2011, 11:41 PM
he wasnt even top 6 PF of all time before the playoffs and now he is top 20 ???
get real

He's probably among the top 25 greatest players of all time. He's a 10 time All-Star, has 11 straight seasons averaging 21+ PPG, 7+ RPG, and 2+ APG, has won an NBA MVP, a finals MVP, and been named to the All-NBA first or second team 9 times (4 first, 5 second). He ranks 23rd all-time in scoring, despite only playing 993 NBA games.

In the playoffs, he's scored 30+ points 13 times in elimination games (trailing only Jerry West, who has 14). He averages 28 and 12 in those games, highest averages of any player.

Those numbers earn him a place in the discussion of the top 25. Where he falls from there...I don't know. He's still got a few good years left in him, so once his career is done we can look back and find out where he ranks. But for now, I'd say his body of work up to this point should (at the least) earn him a place in the conversation.

Hawkeye15
06-12-2011, 11:42 PM
how does one ring jump him ahead 5 all time greats? who are these 5 other players that hes clearly better than?

circumstance is why.

Top PF's ever? (that was your following post)

Duncan
Malone
KG
Barkley
Dirk

They are all inside my top 15 as well.

kArSoN RyDaH
06-12-2011, 11:43 PM
malone
duncan
garnett
barkley
dirk?

Mile High Champ
06-12-2011, 11:43 PM
1. Tim Duncan
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Karl Malone
5. Charles Barkley


I think he's second actually.

This shows me that you have to be a young kid. There is no way that Dirk is better than Malone. Maybe if he wins another title and gets up that scoring list but he is not on his level.

DoJoTheSlasher
06-12-2011, 11:43 PM
Shooting is the only thing he could do better than Garnett, and he is not better than Barkley or Malone

I think rings separate ALL TIME GREATS. Dirk isn't much better than Malone, Barkley and Garnett but in my opinion he is a little better.

Lake_Show2416
06-12-2011, 11:43 PM
top 25 or 30

LA_Raiders
06-12-2011, 11:44 PM
All Time? Top 50

DoJoTheSlasher
06-12-2011, 11:44 PM
This shows me that you have to be a young kid. There is no way that Dirk is better than Malone. Maybe if he wins another title and gets up that scoring list but he is not on his level.

Yes I am 18 and I posted earlier that i actually didn't know about him being better than Dirk.

pables21
06-12-2011, 11:44 PM
I put him in the Top 20 and is a Top 3-4 PF. This playoff run is all-time great and will define his career. He also goes down as one of the best clutch players. Its great to see him cement his legacy

MFFL==FML
06-12-2011, 11:44 PM
Dirk is probably top 15 of all time. Currently 3rd best PF in the history of the game behind Tim Duncan and Malone. Had the refs not given the title to the Heat in 06', Dirk would be 2nd best PF of all time.

DoJoTheSlasher
06-12-2011, 11:46 PM
1. Tim Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Charles Barkley
5. Kevin Garnett


This is my official one. I take back Malone and put him ahead of Dirk. Regardless these are all top 20-25 players of all time.

MFFL==FML
06-12-2011, 11:46 PM
People who mention Garnett, I hate to tell you, but um... Dirk is Finals MVP. Dirk is still playing at a higher level (probably even higher level) than at any other point in his career. While Garnett had better stats in his prime, Dirk is playing consistently at an incredibly high level for about a decade and shows no signs of slowing down.

Ebbs
06-12-2011, 11:47 PM
he wasnt even top 6 PF of all time before the playoffs and now he is top 20 ???
get real

BS.

Malone, Duncan, KG are the only three better all time.


I love Dirk but both Tim Duncan and Karl Malone are still ahead of him for me.

Yea sure and I'll throw KG in around there too. But that's it. People who are trying to say Barkley and Ewing were better are off their rocker.


I dont think he is top 15 now...

He maybe Top 25... I know he can shoot but he doesnt have good shot selection, doesnt rebound good, and also dont have good defense, I dont even think he is a top 5 PF ever...

He is a top 20 player all time.

Look at his stats. He has been arguably the best offensive player of the decade. It's very easy to argue he could have a second MVP.

1 Championship
1 MVP
1 Finals MVP

Also you are high if you think he has bad shot selection...

29$JerZ
06-12-2011, 11:47 PM
MVP + Finals MVP will help him a ton in ranking imo
I would say he reaches Top 5 of his position. Idk about overall ranking

MagicBucsSox
06-12-2011, 11:50 PM
I'd definitely be okay with placing him in the top 25 maybe 20. You?

Dude he's better than Bird wake up dirk is top 10

gsgs49
06-12-2011, 11:55 PM
circumstance is why.

Top PF's ever? (that was your following post)

Duncan
Malone
KG
Barkley
Dirk

They are all inside my top 15 as well.

yeah this is exactly my top 5 PF list,I think Dirk will pass Barkley at the end of his career because of his longevity and his ring but he can't pass Duncan,Malone and Garnett IMO.

JordansBulls
06-12-2011, 11:55 PM
How many guys have a league mvp and a title? And now a finals MVP?

blastmasta26
06-12-2011, 11:58 PM
1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. Garnett
4. Barkley
5. Nowitzki

That's where I rank Dirk in terms of PFs. All time he's top 20 for sure, maybe higher but I'd have to re-evaluate.

momoneyyyy
06-13-2011, 12:00 AM
top 25 all time definitely

MagicBucsSox
06-13-2011, 12:00 AM
yeah this is exactly my top 5 PF list,I think Dirk will pass Barkley at the end of his career because of his longevity and his ring but he can't pass Duncan,Malone and Garnett IMO.

This

shep33
06-13-2011, 12:02 AM
top 25 for sure. Great offensive player, I think the only knock on him is his defense, which isn't that great and I think Dirk even knows that. But offensively he's a legend. I can't put him top 15 just because of his D, that's the only thing that is holding him back.

blastmasta26
06-13-2011, 12:02 AM
Dude he's better than Bird wake up dirk is top 10
No.

Ebbs
06-13-2011, 12:03 AM
How many guys have a league mvp and a title? And now a finals MVP?

Yes this.

Also how many guys can say the won the title without one other all star on the roster? (serious question anyone know?)

Also How many players can claim they were the best player on a team that won 50 games for 11 years straight?

Led the League in PER back to back years?

Top 10 in PER for a decade?

A top 10 scorer for a decade?

Top 10 in WS for a decade?

3 straight years leading the league in WS/48?

All NBA 12 years?

Hawkeye15
06-13-2011, 12:04 AM
Dude he's better than Bird wake up dirk is top 10

no way in hell Dirk is better than Bird.

RaidersLakers24
06-13-2011, 12:08 AM
Dirk was already top 20 before the finals started. He is now top 15, for sure


Have you lost your mind?? Dirk top 15??? HELLS no top 30 top 25 yes top 20 nooooo

Hellcrooner
06-13-2011, 12:10 AM
top 50

Jewelz0376
06-13-2011, 12:11 AM
as far as pfs go..i'd rank em

1)Duncan
2)Malone
3)KG
4)Dirk
5)Barkley

Its close between Barkley and Dirk for me..Dirk is a better scorer but Barkley is better on the boards..neither played much D... Dirk got with the title and finals mvp to go with a previous trip to the finals I'd give the nod to Dirk

Chronz
06-13-2011, 12:11 AM
Top 15 talk has become legit

drobe86
06-13-2011, 12:14 AM
Dirk is a top 10 player in this league. Dirk is the only Superstar in NBA History to win an NBA title without a 2nd option. He won a ring with an aging Jason Kidd, Outcast in Marion and Stevenson, JJ Barea was an undrafted free agent that lives off 1 year deals. And Tyson Chandler who noone believed in because of his injury history..... It is what it is though.... Cuz we poppin Champagne like we won a championship Ring...

Hellcrooner
06-13-2011, 12:14 AM
Top 15 talk has become legit

yeah in the world of people that started watching when reggie Miller retired.

Maybe

Jewelz0376
06-13-2011, 12:14 AM
Yes this.

Also how many guys can say the won the title without one other all star on the roster? (serious question anyone know?)

Also How many players can claim they were the best player on a team that won 50 games for 11 years straight?

Led the League in PER back to back years?

Top 10 in PER for a decade?

A top 10 scorer for a decade?

Top 10 in WS for a decade?

3 straight years leading the league in WS/48?

All NBA 12 years?

Last one was Hakeem

Hellcrooner
06-13-2011, 12:15 AM
Dirk is a top 10 player in this league. Dirk is the only Superstar in NBA History to win an NBA title without a 2nd option. He won a ring with an aging Jason Kidd, Outcast in Marion and Stevenson, JJ Barea was an undrafted free agent that lives off 1 year deals. And Tyson Chandler who noone believed in because of his injury history..... It is what it is though.... Cuz we poppin Champagne like we won a championship Ring...

1 Check Rick barrys teams of Gs.

2 there is ALWAYS a second option.

3 Pistons won withouth a 1st option


TEAM WINS RINGS not PLAYERS.


of course im preaching to the deaf.

theres no point.

Jewelz0376
06-13-2011, 12:15 AM
Dirk is a top 10 player in this league. Dirk is the only Superstar in NBA History to win an NBA title without a 2nd option. He won a ring with an aging Jason Kidd, Outcast in Marion and Stevenson, JJ Barea was an undrafted free agent that lives off 1 year deals. And Tyson Chandler who noone believed in because of his injury history..... It is what it is though.... Cuz we poppin Champagne like we won a championship Ring...

Your forgetting about Hakeem

Il Mago50
06-13-2011, 12:17 AM
Top 20-25, I will always think that his defensive abilities will stop him from getting any closer then top 20.

That being said, his rebounding is respectable enough that with the ring, he's easily top 20.

naps
06-13-2011, 12:20 AM
circumstance is why.

Top PF's ever? (that was your following post)

Duncan
Malone
KG
Barkley
Dirk

They are all inside my top 15 as well.

I want to see your top 15 list. Please put it up.

faridk89
06-13-2011, 12:20 AM
whats with nba fans and ranking players, wait until the player is done his career and maybe then you can discuss this type of ****

but comparing players that played at different times is still stupid

TRF929
06-13-2011, 12:23 AM
A little dated, but still has info on who should be considered in the top all time. Dirk will move up now that he won but by how much?

http://nbahoopsonline.com/Articles/2008-09/topPFalltime.html

naps
06-13-2011, 12:23 AM
Top 40. It's insane when people say top 15 type of things. Some people are living in the moment.

drobe86
06-13-2011, 12:26 AM
Your forgetting about Hakeem


Umm... Hakeem had some guy named Clyde Drexler lol.... Last I checked he was pretty good :facepalm:

Hellcrooner
06-13-2011, 12:28 AM
Umm... Hakeem had some guy named Clyde Drexler lol.... Last I checked he was pretty good :facepalm:

except he didnt have it in 1994.

oh and btw mid 90s drexler was bout that good as todays HOF LOCK JASON KIDD is.

drobe86
06-13-2011, 12:29 AM
1 Check Rick barrys teams of Gs.

2 there is ALWAYS a second option.

3 Pistons won withouth a 1st option


TEAM WINS RINGS not PLAYERS.


of course im preaching to the deaf.

theres no point.



Last I checked, the Pistons had a few guys named Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars whom I think both turned out to be HALL OF FAMERS. How they didn't have any options is unheard of. And I'm not even talking about the excellent role players they had including guys like Rick Mahorn, and Bill Lambeer. Those teams were awesome man what are you talking about? Or are you talking about the Pistons from '04 where the entire starting 5 were in the All Star game. Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, Sheed and Ben Wallace?

Hellcrooner
06-13-2011, 12:35 AM
Last I checked, the Pistons had a few guys named Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars whom I think both turned out to be HALL OF FAMERS. How they didn't have any options is unheard of. And I'm not even talking about the excellent role players they had including guys like Rick Mahorn, and Bill Lambeer. Those teams were awesome man what are you talking about? Or are you talking about the Pistons from '04 where the entire starting 5 were in the All Star game. Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, Tayshaun Prince, Sheed and Ben Wallace?

oh sorry i ddint know the kidds, pejas, marions and so on never played allstars...

RB#20
06-13-2011, 12:35 AM
I rank Dirk somewhere in the top 50-75 players of all-time. As for PF's it's like this:
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Karl Malone
4. Charles Barkley
5. Dolph Shayes
6. Kevin McHale
7. Bob Pettit
8. Dennis Rodman
9. Elvin Hayes
10. Dirk Nowitzki

So, I got him listed in the top 10 PF's of all-time but that's probably just because I'm forgetting someone. I love Dirk, but please don't overrate him. There are 25 players that I would take over him and I already mentioned 9 players in his position that I would rather have.

Hellcrooner
06-13-2011, 12:36 AM
I rank Dirk somewhere in the top 50-75 players of all-time. As for PF's it's like this:
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Karl Malone
4. Charles Barkley
5. Dolph Shayes
6. Kevin McHale
7. Bob Pettit
8. Dennis Rodman
9. Elvin Hayes
10. Dirk Nowitzki

So, I got him listed in the top 10 PF's of all-time but that's probably just because I'm forgetting someone. I love Dirk, but please don't overrate him. There are 25 players that I would take over him and I already mentioned 9 players in his position that I would rather have.
finally someone who knows his history .

i wouldnt put rodman over dirk tough

drobe86
06-13-2011, 12:39 AM
oh sorry i ddint know the kidds, pejas, marions and so on never played allstars...

Those guys are nowhere near All Stars NOW lol.. Kidd is 40 years old. Peja had what 3 pts this series? Marion is a very good player but he hasn't made an all star game since what 2005-2006? Dirk is the 1 superstar in history that did more with less...

Hellcrooner
06-13-2011, 12:40 AM
Those guys are nowhere near All Stars NOW lol.. Kidd is 40 years old. Peja had what 3 pts this series? Marion is a very good player but he hasn't made an all star game since what 2005-2006? Dirk is the 1 superstar in history that did more with less...

if it makes you happy to think so?

enjoy the moment.

It wil still not be true.

Borna41
06-13-2011, 12:42 AM
Right now I put him in top 30-25,by the time he retires he can be a top 20 player,but not top 15,and he is my favorite player.

PF

Duncan
Malone
Dirk/KG KG deffense,dirk offense
Barkley

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 12:43 AM
yeah in the world of people that started watching when reggie Miller retired.

Maybe

You think players in the past > Current players.

You also said you'd take Magic over Jordan in the NBA All Time RD, so I don't really value any of your opinions on NBA matters. Maybe when you become realistic, we can have a serious conversation.


I rank Dirk somewhere in the top 50-75 players of all-time. As for PF's it's like this:
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Karl Malone
4. Charles Barkley
5. Dolph Shayes
6. Kevin McHale
7. Bob Pettit
8. Dennis Rodman
9. Elvin Hayes
10. Dirk Nowitzki

So, I got him listed in the top 10 PF's of all-time but that's probably just because I'm forgetting someone. I love Dirk, but please don't overrate him. There are 25 players that I would take over him and I already mentioned 9 players in his position that I would rather have.

That list is laughable. Especially Dennis Rodman ahead of Dirk. When has Rodman ever been an MVP caliber player year after year?

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 12:46 AM
oh sorry i ddint know the kidds, pejas, marions and so on never played allstars...

You calling those players "stars" is a testament of how blinded you are from the truth.

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 12:47 AM
Just to clarify, I am referring to those players as stars now, which, by the way, is the only thing that matters.

RB#20
06-13-2011, 12:47 AM
finally someone who knows his history .

i wouldnt put rodman over dirk tough

I think it depends on what you look for. I value Rodman's ability to bring the other team's PF to their worst and his superior rebounding ability over Dirk's offensive skills. Rodman was never the number 1 option on offense, but he was really the first guy since Bill Russell and Michael Cooper to be the first option on defense if there were such a thing. Dirk wouldn't be able to do the same thing to Rodman in his prime like he did to the Heat in this series.

AIRMAR72
06-13-2011, 12:49 AM
dirk is top5 at PF I put him at 15 for alltime great you cant guard him and when hes in the flow look=out rainbow allday

Lakersfan2483
06-13-2011, 12:53 AM
Top 30 player of all time.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 12:53 AM
As far as top 5 PFs of all-time, it's a very interesting comparison between KG, Duncan, Dirk, Karl Malone and Charles Barkley. The last 2 guys obviously don't have a ring.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=duncati01&y1=2011&p2=garneke01&y2=2011&p3=nowitdi01&y3=2011&p4=malonka01&y4=2004&p5=barklch01&y5=2000&p6=barklch01

In terms of PER, Duncan is 1st in the regular season and postseason of those 5. Dirk is 4th in the regular season but 2nd in the postseason. Besides Duncan, he's also the only player of the 5 to raise his PER in the postseason.

In TS%, he trails Chuck in the regular season but is the best in the postseason and again, raises his TS% in the playoffs (the only one of the 5).

In Win Shares, Dirk is 5th in the regular season but he's also played the least amount of seasons of the 5. Duncan and KG should pass Barkley in win shares next year. Dirk could be a couple seasons away. In the playoffs, Dirk is 3rd in win shares behind only Duncan and Malone.

In terms of WS/48, Duncan is 1st during the regular season followed by Chuck and then Dirk. However, in the postseason, Dirk is 1st.

One thing that tends to get underestimated in most of these stats is defense and there is no doubt that KG and Duncan are the best defenders of the 5. For that reason, I'd probably put Duncan at #1 (the 4 rings help too), KG at #2. After that, I think it's a toss up between Chuck and Dirk but I'd go Dirk at #3 because of the ring (although Chuck had a much better all around game then Dirk). I'd put the Mailman 5th. Why? His postseason numbers just fell apart compared to his regular season #'s. He was worse all across the board in the postseason. He saw a huge decline in WS/48 and his PER and TS% numbers were worse too (a bigger decline then everyone else among these 5 guys). This goes along with his reputation too.

So my rankings:
#1 Duncan
#2 KG
#3 Dirk (because of his "raising his game" in the postseason but maybe Chuck deserves to be ahead of him)
#4 Chuck (IMO, interchangeable with Dirk, he had the better all around game)
#5 Karl Malone

I will add this in though: Dirk hasn't hit his decline yet (or at least it seems like he hasn't...). All of these other guys either have or are already retired.

RB#20
06-13-2011, 12:53 AM
You think players in the past > Current players.

You also said you'd take Magic over Jordan in the NBA All Time RD, so I don't really value any of your opinions on NBA matters. Maybe when you become realistic, we can have a serious conversation.



That list is laughable. Especially Dennis Rodman ahead of Dirk. When has Rodman ever been an MVP caliber player year after year?

Laughable because it's true, or because you don't recognize any of the names that are on there who played before 1995? Who gives a **** about the MVP award. It's a popularity contest. Ask David Robinson how Hakeem torched him in the playoffs during his "MVP Caliber" season. The Most Valuable Player award means very little when comparing it to the most valuable team. MVP's mean **** to me. Rings should be credited to a team and should hold no barring when talking about individual efforts. Like I said, Dirk wouldn't have this type of series if he went against Rodman in his prime.

Lakersfan2483
06-13-2011, 12:58 AM
In terms of Power Fowards, he is right behind Duncan, Malone, Barkley, Bob Petit and Kevin Garnett. He is better than Mchale on the offensive end, although Mchale was a better post player. I would put Dirk ahead of Mchale right now though based on what he did this year as the no. 1 guy.

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 01:00 AM
I think it depends on what you look for. I value Rodman's ability to bring the other team's PF to their worst and his superior rebounding ability over Dirk's offensive skills. Rodman was never the number 1 option on offense, but he was really the first guy since Bill Russell and Michael Cooper to be the first option on defense if there were such a thing. Dirk wouldn't be able to do the same thing to Rodman in his prime like he did to the Heat in this series.

Again, you're comparing a Finals MVP, MVP, Champion, 10x All Star, 11x All NBA (9 1st+2nd), and someone who still has some good time left, to a great rebounder and defender who basically was never the leader of his team and only saw 2 All NBA teams (Both 3rd team).

It's childish to say Dirk couldn't do this that or the other on Rodman, but in reality, Dirk gets his shot off on anyone. And that's all that counts, is that he gets it off, because his shot difficulty is arguably the greatest of all time.

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 01:03 AM
Laughable because it's true, or because you don't recognize any of the names that are on there who played before 1995? Who gives a **** about the MVP award. It's a popularity contest. Ask David Robinson how Hakeem torched him in the playoffs during his "MVP Caliber" season. The Most Valuable Player award means very little when comparing it to the most valuable team. MVP's mean **** to me. Rings should be credited to a team and should hold no barring when talking about individual efforts. Like I said, Dirk wouldn't have this type of series if he went against Rodman in his prime.

No, it's laughable, because you try to impress people with your "history of the game", but in reality you are doing yourself a diservice.

Here's a stat that I'll end the conversation with:

All Time PER:
Dirk: 23.7
Rodman: 14.6

Becks2307
06-13-2011, 01:03 AM
dirk has to pass KG overall with this ring...AND FINALS MVP on top of his regular season MVP. Dirk is 3 years younger and played 3 seasons left anyway..i think he'll go down as either #2PF behind malone, or he will pass him.

I think KG Was better in his prime, but now with this ring u cant deny dirk

krest213
06-13-2011, 01:04 AM
i don't know but...
he know consider a famer

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 01:06 AM
Dirk wouldn't have this type of series if he went against Rodman in his prime.

Nobody has ever been able to consistently (1 on 1) defend Dirk's shot.

For you to say Rodman would do so at 6'7" is moronic.

Like Barkley said, "It's like shooting over a chair for Nowitzki".

RB#20
06-13-2011, 01:07 AM
Again, you're comparing a Finals MVP, MVP, Champion, 10x All Star, 11x All NBA (9 1st+2nd), and someone who still has some good time left, to a great rebounder and defender who basically was never the leader of his team and only saw 2 All NBA teams (Both 3rd team).

It's childish to say Dirk couldn't do this that or the other on Rodman, but in reality, Dirk gets his shot off on anyone. And that's all that counts, is that he gets it off, because his shot difficulty is arguably the greatest of all time.

I see that the NBA's propaganda has gone to your head. It's childish for me to think that Rodman, whom has shutdown Karl Malone, Charles Barkley and just about every other PF that has played in his era could not shutdown Dirk? Before this season started, Dirk was a start with Pau Gasol, Tim Duncan, KG and Chris Bosh ranked ahead of him. It was even said during the Lakers series that Dirk is a star but Kobe is a super-star. After he wins, he was then heralded as one of the top 10 players of all-time. Give me a break. The guy's good but not as good as everyone makes him out to be.

hugepatsfan
06-13-2011, 01:07 AM
I'm too lazy to look it up and quote it, but I saw his post earlier before I logged off and Hawkeye nailed it.

JordansBulls
06-13-2011, 01:08 AM
Dirk is a top 10 player in this league. Dirk is the only Superstar in NBA History to win an NBA title without a 2nd option. He won a ring with an aging Jason Kidd, Outcast in Marion and Stevenson, JJ Barea was an undrafted free agent that lives off 1 year deals. And Tyson Chandler who noone believed in because of his injury history..... It is what it is though.... Cuz we poppin Champagne like we won a championship Ring...

What the hell do you call Jason Terry in this series? Jason Kidd is a sure fire hall of famer who also started on the team and led another team to two nba finals.

Young2Kinsler
06-13-2011, 01:11 AM
He is a top 15 NBA player f all time, book it

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 01:12 AM
I see that the NBA's propaganda has gone to your head. It's childish for me to think that Rodman, whom has shutdown Karl Malone, Charles Barkley and just about every other PF that has played in his era could not shutdown Dirk? Before this season started, Dirk was a start with Pau Gasol, Tim Duncan, KG and Chris Bosh ranked ahead of him. It was even said during the Lakers series that Dirk is a star but Kobe is a super-star. After he wins, he was then heralded as one of the top 10 players of all-time. Give me a break. The guy's good but not as good as everyone makes him out to be.

You keep digging yourself a deeper hole. Maybe you shouldn't be hanging around people that think Bosh, Gasol, KG, and Duncan were all better coming into the season than Dirk.

Propoganda has gotten to my head? :laugh2:

He's not top 10 all time as of now, but he's better than what you gave his credit for. You basically shat on him and said Dennis Rodman was a better PF.

Based on that, everything you say can now be taken as a biased statement because of what you said. You clearly have some sort of vendetta against Nowitzki, and calling Rodman better than him is an absolute joke.

I'll put Dirk behind Malone for now, and right there with KG, both being slightly better than Barkley, but I respect other opinions both ways.

Your opinion was only validated by your hate towards him and/or the Mavs.

bosox3431
06-13-2011, 01:13 AM
Way to much credit in this forum is given for team accomplishments.

cowboysceltics
06-13-2011, 01:17 AM
Was Larry Bird a power forward? If he was then most of these lists are crazy!

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 01:17 AM
Way to much credit in this forum is given for team accomplishments.

The reason you play the game is to win it all. Nobody cares about who was the losers of the Finals. Leading a team to win it all against Kobe, Durant, LeBron + Wade, etc. is impressive.

With that being said you can't discredit players who never won a championship. But that goes with you can't take away the Finals MVP performances of some players that led to championships.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 01:18 AM
Why does everyone think Malone is one of the top 2-3 PFs? This guy fell apart in the postseason. His PER fell from 23.9 in the regular season to 21.1 in the postseason. His TS% fell from 57.7% to 52.6% in the postseason. His WS/48 fell from .205 to .140 in the postseason. His TRB% and Ast% also fell. His eFG% fell by about 5 points in the postseason. His ORtg fell from 113 in the regular season to 106 in the postseason. Simply put, the Mailman wet the bed in the postseason. He was way worse and thats one of the reasons he never won a title.

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 01:18 AM
Was Larry Bird a power forward? If he was then most of these lists are crazy!

He's usually listed as a 3.

BigDFan85
06-13-2011, 01:20 AM
He is a top 15 NBA player f all time, book it

Agreed, F the haters.

RB#20
06-13-2011, 01:21 AM
You keep digging yourself a deeper hole. Maybe you shouldn't be hanging around people that think Bosh, Gasol, KG, and Duncan were all better coming into the season than Dirk.

Propoganda has gotten to my head? :laugh2:

He's not top 10 all time as of now, but he's better than what you gave his credit for. You basically shat on him and said Dennis Rodman was a better PF.

Based on that, everything you say can now be taken as a biased statement because of what you said. You clearly have some sort of vendetta against Nowitzki, and calling Rodman better than him is an absolute joke.

I'll put Dirk behind Malone for now, and right there with KG, both being slightly better than Barkley, but I respect other opinions both ways.

Your opinion was only validated by your hate towards him and/or the Mavs.

LOL! Now I hate Nowitzki and the Mavs? Yesterday I was accused of hating LeBron and the Heat oh what a difference a day makes. For the record, I was not the one who stated that Pau and the others were better than Dirk it was your wonderful Charles Barkley whom you quoted in an attempt to "win the argument" that said that and just about every NBA analyst and writer was on board with Pau being the best PF in the game. I don't hate Dirk or the Mavs. I don't hate LeBron or the Heat, I think he's an *** but he's a great talent just like Dirk. I don't think Dirk is Top 5 PFs of all-time nor do I think he's top 20-25. That's all I'm saying. If you want to twist it around be my guest.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 01:23 AM
Way to much credit in this forum is given for team accomplishments.

I agree.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=duncati01&y1=2011&p2=garneke01&y2=2011&p3=nowitdi01&y3=2011&p4=malonka01&y4=2004&p5=barklch01&y5=2000&p6=barklch01

However, as we see here, Dirk deserves to be in this conversation. And most importantly, he raises a lot of his numbers (like PER, TS%, etc.) in the playoffs. This doesn't happen very often. Even among the great players. It's just natural to see a decline in the postseason since defenses are better and the competition is better.

For this reason, I could see an argument being made for him over Charles Barkley who was definitely the better all around player. But they're even enough in the regular season, that I think you could put Dirk ahead of him.

As far as Malone, yeah he played a long time, thats why he's accumulated so many win shares. But the guy had a severe decline in the postseason. That HAS to be considered.

RB#20
06-13-2011, 01:24 AM
Was Larry Bird a power forward? If he was then most of these lists are crazy!

Bird was a Small Forward, a position where Dirk started his career. If you want to see where Dirk compares to that group he will rank a lot lower.

UnWantedTheory
06-13-2011, 01:25 AM
I put Dirk overall as a top 50 player, because I do not consider him top 20 in regards to the big positions.

As far as the best at the PF position, remember some of these names. Duncan, Garnett, Malone, Barkley, Pettit, Hayes, McHale, Rodman, Debusschere, Schayes, Lucas. Not to mention the hybrid players that played both forward positions. Just food for thought.

Dirk is top 10 PF perhaps, but he isn't top 5.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 01:25 AM
LOL! Now I hate Nowitzki and the Mavs? Yesterday I was accused of hating LeBron and the Heat oh what a difference a day makes. For the record, I was not the one who stated that Pau and the others were better than Dirk it was your wonderful Charles Barkley whom you quoted in an attempt to "win the argument" that said that and just about every NBA analyst and writer was on board with Pau being the best PF in the game. I don't hate Dirk or the Mavs. I don't hate LeBron or the Heat, I think he's an *** but he's a great talent just like Dirk. I don't think Dirk is Top 5 PFs of all-time nor do I think he's top 20-25. That's all I'm saying. If you want to twist it around be my guest.

I'm curious but what do you use as your criteria for ranking players? Because to me, it appears to be all over the place. You don't use numbers (or at least relevant ones..), you don't use rings, you don't use awards. WTF do you use?

Just a question. I'm honestly wondering because I'm curious.

kArSoN RyDaH
06-13-2011, 01:26 AM
Baylor, Ewing, Duncan, Malone, Garnett, Gasol?, Barry, McHale, Barkley.


hmmmm

knightstemplar
06-13-2011, 01:26 AM
top 25, maybe top 20

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 01:27 AM
LOL! Now I hate Nowitzki and the Mavs? Yesterday I was accused of hating LeBron and the Heat oh what a difference a day makes. For the record, I was not the one who stated that Pau and the others were better than Dirk it was your wonderful Charles Barkley whom you quoted in an attempt to "win the argument" that said that and just about every NBA analyst and writer was on board with Pau being the best PF in the game. I don't hate Dirk or the Mavs. I don't hate LeBron or the Heat, I think he's an *** but he's a great talent just like Dirk. I don't think Dirk is Top 5 PFs of all-time nor do I think he's top 20-25. That's all I'm saying. If you want to twist it around be my guest.

You posted that you thought Dennis Rodman was better than Dirk Nowitzki.

Either you:
- have a vendetta against Dirk and/or the Mavs
- you feel intelligent by believing that players in the past are generally greater than players nowadays, forwhatever reason: i.e. makes you seem smarter, the 'legend' connotation, etc. (see HellCrooner)
- or aren't very knowledgeable about basketball

Jahari Kavi
06-13-2011, 01:27 AM
Top 25-30

thedfactor
06-13-2011, 01:27 AM
He's definitely up there and could easily be considered for top 25, but he's not done yet. Still has few years to accomplish more.

knightstemplar
06-13-2011, 01:27 AM
Baylor, Ewing, Duncan, Malone, Garnett, Gasol?, Barry, McHale, Barkley.


hmmmm

:facepalm:

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 01:28 AM
I'm curious but what do you use as your criteria for ranking players? Because to me, it appears to be all over the place. You don't use numbers (or at least relevant ones..), you don't use rings, you don't use awards. WTF do you use?

Just a question. I'm honestly wondering because I'm curious.

I'll second this.

Jahari Kavi
06-13-2011, 01:30 AM
Dirk is a top 10 player in this league. Dirk is the only Superstar in NBA History to win an NBA title without a 2nd option. He won a ring with an aging Jason Kidd, Outcast in Marion and Stevenson, JJ Barea was an undrafted free agent that lives off 1 year deals. And Tyson Chandler who noone believed in because of his injury history..... It is what it is though.... Cuz we poppin Champagne like we won a championship Ring...

boy stop

RB#20
06-13-2011, 01:30 AM
I agree.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=duncati01&y1=2011&p2=garneke01&y2=2011&p3=nowitdi01&y3=2011&p4=malonka01&y4=2004&p5=barklch01&y5=2000&p6=barklch01

However, as we see here, Dirk deserves to be in this conversation. And most importantly, he raises a lot of his numbers (like PER, TS%, etc.) in the playoffs. This doesn't happen very often. Even among the great players. It's just natural to see a decline in the postseason since defenses are better and the competition is better.

For this reason, I could see an argument being made for him over Charles Barkley who was definitely the better all around player. But they're even enough in the regular season, that I think you could put Dirk ahead of him.

As far as Malone, yeah he played a long time, thats why he's accumulated so many win shares. But the guy had a severe decline in the postseason. That HAS to be considered.

I like some of the points you make. You're not going by silly things such as MVP awards or rings either. I was thinking about making a list of all stats however some of the stats aren't going to be accurate for some players due to the fact that rebounds, blks, etc. weren't accounted for until the early 60's.

Bucsfan40
06-13-2011, 01:32 AM
Dirk is a great player, a hall of famer. I know people wanna make him bigger than he is because he has a ring. He diff jumps up the list. But look

Tim Duncan had 3 rings

Malone has way better stats and got beat by Jordan( greatest player of all time)

Kevin Garnett won a ring before Dirk and has always been the better player. people forget how amazing he was

But Congrats Dirk. Even more happy for Marion and kidd

Bucsfan40
06-13-2011, 01:35 AM
People are picking him to be the top PF of all time. But if tomorrow there was a Fantasy draft

It would go

Durant
Lebron
Howard
Wade
maybeeee Rose
then Dirk

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 01:36 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=duncati01&y1=2011&p2=garneke01&y2=2011&p3=nowitdi01&y3=2011&p4=malonka01&y4=2004&p5=barklch01&y5=2000&p6=barklch01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html

I've already pointed out Dirk is MUCH better in the postseason then the Mailman, especially relative to the regular season. If we look at their careers, Dirk's prime (or best 3 years) are better then Malone's best 3 years. Dirk has led the league in PER twice, in WS/48 3 times and Win Shares twice. Comparing their actual individual numbers, look at Dirk's 3 best years vs. Malone's 3 best years and the numbers are pretty even with maybe a slight edge to Dirk.

What Malone has on Dirk is time. But should that be used to say he is better then Dirk? Because he played forever? Dirk is pretty even in terms of their peak and he's definitely better in the postseason, so why isn't Dirk better then Malone?

RB#20
06-13-2011, 01:36 AM
You posted that you thought Dennis Rodman was better than Dirk Nowitzki.

Either you:
- have a vendetta against Dirk and/or the Mavs
- you feel intelligent by believing that players in the past are generally greater than players nowadays, forwhatever reason: i.e. makes you seem smarter, the 'legend' connotation, etc. (see HellCrooner)
- or aren't very knowledgeable about basketball

ummm....none of the above? I never said that older players are better than the ones now-a-days but...for the most part it is true. To think that I have a "vendetta" about a basketball player or a team is very humorous. It's kind of embarrassing that you would even say that.

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 01:36 AM
I like some of the points you make. You're not going by silly things such as MVP awards or rings either. I was thinking about making a list of all stats however some of the stats aren't going to be accurate for some players due to the fact that rebounds, blks, etc. weren't accounted for until the early 60's.

MVPs and rings account for something. To say success in the playoffs, or being considered the MVP of the league, doesn't matter, is ridiculous.

And yeah, go ahead and use any numbers you want for McHale, Rodman, etc. you think would calidate your points.

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-13-2011, 01:39 AM
I'd put him in the top 20 but not top 15.

From an offensive standpoint, he may be the best offensive big man ever...or at least top 5. I know guys like Kareem and Wilt were so dominant, but they played in a different era. If they played in today's game would they be as dominant offensively. Maybe, maybe not...but Dirk's style works in any time period, against any athlete.

On the other hand, he doesn't really contribute much on the defensive side so that hurts him a little.

Having said that, his career isn't over, and I feel like he still has 3 or maybe even 4 great years left in him before he really starts to decline.

If he can win another one, without having another allstar on his team, top ten will be a legitimate discussion.

As of now though, somewhere between 15-20 on the all time list IMO.

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 01:41 AM
ummm....none of the above? I never said that older players are better than the ones now-a-days but...for the most part it is true. To think that I have a "vendetta" about a basketball player or a team is very humorous. It's kind of embarrassing that you would even say that.

Because those are the only three reasons you could possibly believe Dennis Rodman was a better player. Go ahead and respond to my last post and use statistics and try to validate your points on the 80s/90s players you put ahead of him.

Might as well go into detail on how Dirk is known for his shot difficulty, and being a tall shooter, who is virtually impossible to block, yet a 6'7" Rodman would "shut him down". You act like he hasn't seen every type of defender you could possibly thrown at him as well as all Defensive players throughout the playoffs and his career.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 01:45 AM
MVPs and rings account for something. To say success in the playoffs, or being considered the MVP of the league, doesn't matter, is ridiculous.

And yeah, go ahead and use any numbers you want for McHale, Rodman, etc. you think would calidate your points.

Eh, I'm not so sure about the MVPs. I mean sometimes the voters get it right but Allen Iverson and Steve Nash have some undeserved MVPs. Nash himself is a 2-time MVP winner. But no one in their right mind would say he's better then Wade who has never won an MVP.

As for the rings, I use that as a tiebreaker. If you have two players who are basically even statistically and one has a ring vs. the other who doesn't, I'll give the edge to the guy with the ring. But if two guys aren't even statistically, I won't give an edge to the one that has the ring. They have to be somewhat even.

Dirk didn't really need the ring to validate the fact that he actually raises his game in the postseason. Unfortunately, people used to think he was a choker because he never had a ring, when in fact, he actually got better in the playoffs.

RB#20
06-13-2011, 01:47 AM
MVPs and rings account for something. To say success in the playoffs, or being considered the MVP of the league, doesn't matter, is ridiculous.

And yeah, go ahead and use any numbers you want for McHale, Rodman, etc. you think would calidate your points.

Sure thing. :) I will list numbers for all players I have mentioned and create a separate thread just for you, hopefully I can do it for you tomorrow but realistically probably not until later in the week. Afterwards, we can talk over tea and fig newtons where you can badger me further. But for now, I will go to bed cause i gotta be up in 4 hours. I'm going to send you a friend invite so that I don't forget your name. Night-night, my little pumpkinhead. :yawn: (p.s. it's a quarter to 2 over here on the east coast I don't know where you're at)

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 01:48 AM
Sure thing. :) I will list numbers for all players I have mentioned and create a separate thread just for you, hopefully I can do it for you tomorrow but realistically probably not until later in the week. Afterwards, we can talk over tea and fig newtons where you can badger me further. But for now, I will go to bed cause i gotta be up in 4 hours. I'm going to send you a friend invite so that I don't forget your name. Night-night, my little pumpkinhead. :yawn: (p.s. it's a quarter to 2 over here on the east coast I don't know where you're at)

I'll join in on that thread if its ok with you guys. I've already posted some numbers in this thread.

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 01:51 AM
Sounds good, and patsSOXknicks, you hit it right on the nail.

RB#20
06-13-2011, 01:52 AM
I'll join in on that thread if its ok with you guys. I've already posted some numbers in this thread.

It's absolutely ok. We can make it just the three of us if that's possible to prevent any "outside interference" so to speak although not exactly sure how to do that. :confused:

playmaker_41
06-13-2011, 01:56 AM
top 20 players of all time, just out of top 5 PF's
I'm gonna say"
1. Karl Malone
2. Timmy Duncan
3. Charles Barkley
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Kevin Mchale


6. Dirk?

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 01:57 AM
And McHale was a phenomenal player, but anyone who wants to make an argument for him over Dirk, I'd love to hear it.

Bucsfan40
06-13-2011, 02:00 AM
Two undeserved MVP's. Hardly.. If anything Dirk had an undeserved MVP. Got knocked out by the WARRIORS in his MVP year. Nash won those MVPs fair and square. People forget Assist count as 2-3 point which he would count about 30 ppg if you count assists. Its points on the board any way you cut it

WHODAT8o8
06-13-2011, 02:12 AM
1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. Garnett
4. Barkley
5. Nowitzki

That's where I rank Dirk in terms of PFs. All time he's top 20 for sure, maybe higher but I'd have to re-evaluate.

Agree with this completely

IDB Josh M
06-13-2011, 02:14 AM
2nd best shooting big man in the league. As great as Dirk is, he doesn't shoot their technicals, whereas yao does for his team.

Bruno
06-13-2011, 02:15 AM
I'd say Dirk is indisputably top 25, I might argue him as high as top 20.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 02:16 AM
Two undeserved MVP's. Hardly.. If anything Dirk had an undeserved MVP. Got knocked out by the WARRIORS in his MVP year. Nash won those MVPs fair and square. People forget Assist count as 2-3 point which he would count about 30 ppg if you count assists. Its points on the board any way you cut it

Nash is atrocious defensively and I just don't see how an MVP can be a player who only plays on one side of the court.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nashst01.html

Look at Nash's advanced stats. In 04-05, he didn't even lead the league in Ast%. No doubt, he was a very good player but MVP? No. Ironically, Nash's best season in that 3 year run was the year he didn't win MVP (06-07)

As far as Dirk is concerned, the MVP is based on the regular season only, so what does the Mavs losing to the Warriors in the postseason have to do with anything?

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 02:20 AM
Again, I'd like to see someone debate my original assertion that Dirk is better then Malone rather then just ignoring it and assuming Malone is better because he played forever.

Here's what I said:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=duncati01&y1=2011&p2=garneke01&y2=2011&p3=nowitdi01&y3=2011&p4=malonka01&y4=2004&p5=barklch01&y5=2000&p6=barklch01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html

I've already pointed out Dirk is MUCH better in the postseason then the Mailman, especially relative to the regular season. If we look at their careers, Dirk's prime (or best 3 years) are better then Malone's best 3 years. Dirk has led the league in PER twice, in WS/48 3 times and Win Shares twice. Comparing their actual individual numbers, look at Dirk's 3 best years vs. Malone's 3 best years and the numbers are pretty even with maybe a slight edge to Dirk.

What Malone has on Dirk is time. But should that be used to say he is better then Dirk? Because he played forever? Dirk is pretty even in terms of their peak and he's definitely better in the postseason, so why isn't Dirk better then Malone?

tonyd3b54
06-13-2011, 02:29 AM
offensively hes probably the most gifted pf of all time but that doesnt make him the best pf ever i have him after duncan kg and malone.

Lakersfan2483
06-13-2011, 02:30 AM
What the hell do you call Jason Terry in this series? Jason Kidd is a sure fire hall of famer who also started on the team and led another team to two nba finals.

I have to agree with you on that JB. Dirk is on a very deep and talented team. Jason Terry is a legit 2nd option. J. Kidd is still playing at a high level. Shawn Marion is a former all star and still playing at a high level, he clearly was playing with a lot of talent and big time players. His supporting cast is very good. I didn't even mention Chandler, Barea, Stevenson, Stojakovic, etc.... Extremely deep team with a legit 1st option (Dirk), 2nd (Terry) and 3rd(Marion or Kidd, take your pick)

I certainly don't want to take anything away from Dirk. He was phenomenal all postseason and the best player in the playoffs this year.

Lakersfan2483
06-13-2011, 02:37 AM
I'd say Dirk is indisputably top 25, I might argue him as high as top 20.

What's up Bruno. I have to disagree with you my friend. He definitely is in the top 30, but not top 20, yet.

Here are the guys he is not ahead of: Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe, Russell, Bird, Hakeem, Duncan, Oscar, Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Jerry West, Dr. J, John Havlicek, Charles Barkley, David Robinson, Isaiah Thomas, Patrick Ewing, Walt Frazier, Elgin Baylor, Kevin Garnett and Rick Barry.

Chronz
06-13-2011, 02:52 AM
yeah in the world of people that started watching when reggie Miller retired.

Maybe

Nice attempt at an insult, now if only you could back this up

Hellcrooner
06-13-2011, 02:57 AM
Centers and PF clearly better or arguably(non bolded ) better than Dirk:
-Mikan
-Bellamy
-Russell
-Wilt
-Reed
-Thurmond
Ewing
-Gilmore
-Kareem
-Moses Malone
-Mchale
-Hakeem
-Cowens
-K Malone
-Barkley
-Shaquille
-Robinson
-Duncan
-KG
-MIng
-Webber
-Pau

Wings:
Havliceck
Baylor
Barry
O Robertson
J West
Earl Monroe
Dr J
Gervin
A Dantley
J wilkes
A English
D thompson
Jordan
Drexler
Wilkins
Worhty
Pippen
Bird
r miller
j richmond
mullins
van de wehghe
grant hill
kobe bryant
wade
lebron
iverson
ray allen
p pierce
carmelo
Dumars

Point guards.

COusy
Archibald
Magic
D Johnson
Frazier
Isiah
Stockton
Payton
Kidd

there you go 30 definitive LOCKS as better than Dirk.
and then a TON of "debatables" many of wich( ifnot all) are in the HOF

so top 50 and top 10 among PFs is more than enough

Chronz
06-13-2011, 03:07 AM
Centers and PF clearly better or arguably(non bolded ) better than Dirk:
I can play this game too. Since I'm on my phone il just erase all the wrong answers.

-Wilt
-Kareem
-Moses Malone
-Hakeem
-Barkley
-Shaquille
-Robinson
-Duncan
-KG

Havliceck
Barry
O Robertson
J West
Jordan
Bird
kobe bryant
Magic

When I get home ill take a closer look, hopefully you provide some reasoning for the players not listed

shep33
06-13-2011, 03:20 AM
I think KG is better than Dirk overall... and it kills me to say that cause I hate KG and love Dirk.

Are people only looking on one side of the ball here? KG was one of the greatest defenders in NBA history, Dirk is below average. Dirk wins on offense, but KG is way better on defense.

bgdreton
06-13-2011, 03:36 AM
Who is the guy who had dirk top 10 all time i would love to see that list?????or even top 15???

bgdreton
06-13-2011, 03:44 AM
IS DIRK BETTER THAN ISIAH???? YOU LEFT HIM OFF THE LIST??
12× NBA All-Star (1982-93)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1984, 1986)
3× All-NBA First Team (1984-86)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1983, 1987)
2× NBA Champion (1989, 1990)
NBA Finals MVP (1990)

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 03:49 AM
I can play this game too. Since I'm on my phone il just erase all the wrong answers.


-Barkley


I think I could make a case that Dirk is better then Barkley. Certainly, it's not without holes as I think there's a very legitimate case for Barkley over Dirk.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=duncati01&y1=2011&p2=garneke01&y2=2011&p3=nowitdi01&y3=2011&p4=malonka01&y4=2004&p5=barklch01&y5=2000&p6=barklch01

But if you look at their postseason #'s, Dirk is better in TS%, PER, ORtg, WS and WS/48. While Chuck was undoubtedly better in the regular season, Dirk really raises his game in the postseason, to the point where he's better in a lot of different #'s vs. Chuck. There is no doubt in my mind that Chuck is the better rebounder and passer (and probably defensively too, though I'm not sure how good Chuck is defensively- might not be a very big difference in that area). But Dirk's ability to raise his game in the postseason (above Barkley's #'s) could give him a legitimate argument over Chuck. The title is sort of the icing on the cake.

Plus, even looking at peak #'s during the regular season, they are relatively close in their top 3 seasons (PER or WS/48).

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 03:50 AM
IS DIRK BETTER THAN ISIAH???? YOU LEFT HIM OFF THE LIST??
12× NBA All-Star (1982-93)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1984, 1986)
3× All-NBA First Team (1984-86)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1983, 1987)
2× NBA Champion (1989, 1990)
NBA Finals MVP (1990)

Yes and rather easily too.

RaidersLakers24
06-13-2011, 04:09 AM
Saying dirk is top 15 is like saying Lebron will be top 5 when it's all said and done

Now saying dirk is top 30-25 is more accurate just like saying Kobe will be a top 5 player ever when it's all said and done...it's just much more realistic!

Chronz
06-13-2011, 04:19 AM
IS DIRK BETTER THAN ISIAH???? YOU LEFT HIM OFF THE LIST??
12× NBA All-Star (1982-93)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1984, 1986)
3× All-NBA First Team (1984-86)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1983, 1987)
2× NBA Champion (1989, 1990)
NBA Finals MVP (1990)

I don't see why not, Dirks list of accomplishments are similar so a closer examination of their careers is required but its conceivable

Catfish1314
06-13-2011, 04:32 AM
He's probably top 5 on the list of the most unguardable players.

Duncan, Garnett, and Malone were more complete players at his position. I'd say top 25 all time. He was fantastic in these playoffs.

bgdreton
06-13-2011, 04:52 AM
First imo i think thomas was better but thats me

second at the end of the day even if we deem dirk unguardable (which hes not but very close) , he couldnt guard any of those legends at pf or even center. So its very hard to have him in top 20 solely because he couldnt even guard ben wallace on his good day(ok maybe a bit extreme but you get the point!). His offensive production would just be cancelled out by his lack of defense and rebounding on the other end. I would give him top 25-30 overall, and top 5 pure shooter now. Dirk is a great great player but not top 20 now....

TRF929
06-13-2011, 05:49 AM
Looking at this list of top players can you honestly argue that Dirk blongs in the top 25? This article was written this year and now that Dirk won a Championship he's going to move up, but how much. I just stopped posting after Dirk.

I would honestly put him in the 25-35 ranking, but it's hard for me to rank him any higher because he's so one demensional. He's an awesome shooter and I'd rank him higher in the best shooters but not all-time.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Shaquille O’Neal
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Magic Johnson
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
8. Tim Duncan
9. Larry Bird
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Jerry West
12. Elgin Baylor
13. Hakeem Olajuwon
14. Bob Petit
15. Moses Malone
16. Julius Erving
17. John Havlicek
18. Karl Malone
19. Isiah Thomas
20. Charles Barkley
21. Rick Barry
22. John Stockton
23. Elvin Hayes
24. Bob Cousy
25. David Robinson
26. Kevin McHale
27. Scottie Pippen
28. Jason Kidd
29. George Mikan
30. Kevin Garnett
31. LeBron James
32. Willis Reed
33. Wes Unseld
34. Nate Thurmond
35. Dolph Schayes
36. Walt Frazier
37. Patrick Ewing
38. Jerry Lucas
39. Gary Payton
40. Allen Iverson
41. Billy Cunningham
42. Clyde Drexler
43. Dominique Wilkins
44. Dave Cowens
45. George Gervin
46. Bob McAdoo
47. Earl Monroe
48. Dennis Rodman
49. Dwyane Wade
50. Steve Nash
51. Walt Bellamy
52. Tiny Archibald
53. Dennis Johnson
54. Reggie Miller
55. Dirk Nowitzki

http://www.interbasket.net/news/7683...all-time-slam/

MickeyMgl
06-13-2011, 06:35 AM
Without going over name by name, the only position I feel comfortable with Top 30, probably.

As far as PFs:
1. Malone
2. Barkley
3. Bird (His best seasons were @ PF, IMO.)
4. Hayes
5. Garnett
6. Nowitzki
7. McHale

Dirk's narrowed the gap with Garnett, but I don't think he's caught him.

(Duncan is on my list of Top Cs.)

stejay
06-13-2011, 06:39 AM
I have him at an even #20. Third in all time PF, behind Duncan at 1, and Malone at 2, but I think he is gaining on Malone. To be a great player, you have to perform on the greatest stage of all. Dirk has done that. Adding that to his MVPs, you have to have him top 25 at least. Anyone who doesnt, I think, is just hating for the sake of hating.

stejay
06-13-2011, 06:40 AM
Without going over name by name, the only position I feel comfortable with Top 30, probably.

As far as PFs:
1. Malone
2. Barkley
3. Bird (His best seasons were @ PF, IMO.)
4. Hayes
5. Garnett
6. Nowitzki
7. McHale

Dirk's narrowed the gap with Garnett, but I don't think he's caught him.

(Duncan is on my list of Top Cs.)

LOL whaaaaaat?

MickeyMgl
06-13-2011, 06:43 AM
I think rings separate ALL TIME GREATS. Dirk isn't much better than Malone, Barkley and Garnett but in my opinion he is a little better.

In evaluating individual players, rings are a tiebreaker when players are close statistically and skillwise. Rings are extra credit. This ring brings him closer to Malone & Barkley (among others), but doesn't make up the difference.

stejay
06-13-2011, 07:26 AM
In evaluating individual players, rings are a tiebreaker when players are close statistically and skillwise. Rings are extra credit. This ring brings him closer to Malone & Barkley (among others), but doesn't make up the difference.

Malone...

Career PPG- 25.0
Career TRPG- 10.1
Career FT%- .742
Career AST per game- 3.6

2 x League MVP
14 x NBA All Star
11 x NBA 1st Team
2 x NBA Second Team
1 x NBA Third Team
3 x NBA Defensive First Team
1 x NBA Defensive Second Team
2 x All Star Game MVP
1 x NBA All-Rookie First Team
Hall Of Fame Inductee


Barkley....

Career PPG- 22.1
Career TRPG- 11.7
Career FT%- .735
Career AST per game- 3.9

1 X NBA MVP
11 x NBA All Star
5 x NBA First Team
5 x NBA second team
1 x NBA Third Team
1 x NBA All Rookie Team
1 x All Star MVP
Hall Of Fame Inductee


Nowitzki so far....

Career PPG- 23.0
Career TRPG- 8.4
Career FT%- .877
Career AST per game- 2.7

1 x NBA MVP
11 x NBA All Star
4 x NBA First Team
5 x NBA Second Team
2 x NBA Third Team
NBA Champion
NBA Finals MVP


If you go on stats alone, Dirk edges Barkley. If you add the ring to the equation, he is gaining on Malone fast. Thats why I have him in third at the moment, even though there is room for Dirk to grow some more in stature, and maybe gain another ring, or even another MVP, and maybe bloat up his stats with some more big seasons.

JayW_1023
06-13-2011, 07:37 AM
Malone is overrated. Longivity is all he had. He was never known to come up big in tthe postseason.

I rate Dirk over KG for several reasons: he had more postseason success as the main option, he is a better post player, and he carried a much bigger load during his title run.

My list:

1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. Garnett
4. Malone
5. Pettit
6. McHale
7. Barkley
8. Hayes
9. Rodman
10. Chris Webber (the fact that he was a choker makes him no different from LeBron. He is still one of the biggest pure talents ever, and if it weren't for the Shaq-Kobe juggernaut duo he prolly had a ring to cement that)

BlondeBomber41
06-13-2011, 07:58 AM
The vast majority of people on this forum never actually saw the players who they are listing in the conversation even play. Dirk Nowitzki's credentials speak for themselves. MVP, Finals MVP, Champion, 10 time All Star, 11 times on the All NBA Team, 3 Point shootout Champion, a ton of awards for what he has done on the International stage.... and not even close to being done. He will finish in the top 5-10 on the NBA's all time scoring list barring injury.

Nowitzki and only three players in NBA history have averaged more than 25 points and 10 rebounds in the playoffs. Only Nowitzki and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar have managed four consecutive 30 point 15 rebound games in the playoffs. Additionally, Nowitzki is the only player in NBA history to get over 100 blocks and 150 three pointers in a single season.

Like I said, neither I nor most of you actually saw those players play in their primes so its ridiculous to sit here and debate who is better. I know that he just ***** slapped Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, and Lebron James / Dwyane Wade in the playoffs pretty convincingly. That's the stuff of legends.

cambovenzi
06-13-2011, 08:03 AM
Was it dirk who beat them, or was it his team after several years of failing to do so?

JordansBulls
06-13-2011, 08:07 AM
I'm thinking maybe top 20 now. I mean how many guys have a MVP and Finals MVP and title that carried a team to a title? Not only that but he was the only allstar on his team this year while he beat a team with 3 allstars. He had to go thru guys that many considered better than him in Kobe, Durant, Lebron and Wade. That has to jump him up a lot. Obviously careerwise it will be tough to get past the top 15, but I think it is good enough to rank him top 20.

Hawkeye15
06-13-2011, 08:16 AM
I want to see your top 15 list. Please put it up.

top 15 what? Of all time?

Thing is, how many SG's are in the top 20? How many SF's?

Not many. The list is flooded with C/PG/PF

JayW_1023
06-13-2011, 08:19 AM
The vast majority of people on this forum never actually saw the players who they are listing in the conversation even play. Dirk Nowitzki's credentials speak for themselves. MVP, Finals MVP, Champion, 10 time All Star, 11 times on the All NBA Team, 3 Point shootout Champion, a ton of awards for what he has done on the International stage.... and not even close to being done. He will finish in the top 5-10 on the NBA's all time scoring list barring injury.

Nowitzki and only three players in NBA history have averaged more than 25 points and 10 rebounds in the playoffs. Only Nowitzki and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar have managed four consecutive 30 point 15 rebound games in the playoffs. Additionally, Nowitzki is the only player in NBA history to get over 100 blocks and 150 three pointers in a single season.

Like I said, neither I nor most of you actually saw those players play in their primes so its ridiculous to sit here and debate who is better. I know that he just ***** slapped Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, and Lebron James / Dwyane Wade in the playoffs pretty convincingly. That's the stuff of legends.

You are one of the few who have posted here longer than I. So I will congratulate you. It's good to see real fans stick with their teams amidst all them bandwagoners.

Jarvo
06-13-2011, 10:14 AM
1. Tim Duncan
2. Dirk Nowitzki
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Karl Malone
5. Charles Barkley


I think he's second actually.

The ring helps but he is not better than malone and its a toss up with him and barkley

Bucsfan40
06-13-2011, 10:17 AM
Nobody is better than MJ or will ever be MJ so im happy :D

Jarvo
06-13-2011, 10:32 AM
Top 40. It's insane when people say top 15 type of things. Some people are living in the moment.

THANK YOU! He def top 40. If you have him in your top 5-25 your just caught in the moment now.

Sly Guy
06-13-2011, 10:49 AM
1. Malone
2. Duncan
3. Garnett
4. Dirk
5. Sir Charles

Malone #1 because of his points and rebounds, and the fact he was just a beast for anyone to matchup with. Duncan because of consistency, longevity, and always a championship threat. #3 with Garnett because going head to head in their primes, I think Garnett would have beat out dirk. Almost equally long, KG's athleticism and size would have been the hardest possible matchup. KG has the speed of a little man, and every bit Dirk's size. #4, Dirk cuz he's just about as complete a big-man on offense as you'll ever find. Probably the best offensive player on this list. And he's no slouch on the boards either. #5, charles. Behind dirk cuz I just don't think his numbers stand up to anyone else on there. Chuck scored the ball, but not as much as any of the others, he rebounded, but again, not more to significantly impact him in moving up the list.

ddhulett
06-13-2011, 11:23 AM
I dont think he is top 15 now...

He maybe Top 25... I know he can shoot but he doesnt have good shot selection, doesnt rebound good, and also dont have good defense, I dont even think he is a top 5 PF ever...

What's wrong with his shot selection? 51% from the field! has over 10 Rebounds a game in his playoff career! You can argue top 5 ever and his defense.

Bottom line is this guy has won a championship and knocked at the door for one for 11 years. He carried his team as the only true star on the team.

Name some PF that have done that? I'm sure he would be one of the Top 5...

He is the hardest cover in the NBA, Teams game plan to stop him but can't! He has a High Basketball IQ that's over looked sometimes.

BklynKnicks3
06-13-2011, 11:32 AM
not a fan of him but he top 18

BritneysBestBet
06-13-2011, 11:34 AM
He's top 20 for sure, with that ring now on his finger. Put Jason Kidd up there for all round best point guard to play the game!

Swashcuff
06-13-2011, 11:34 AM
Top 25 IMO.

zookman65
06-13-2011, 11:41 AM
he wasnt even top 6 PF of all time before the playoffs and now he is top 20 ???
get real

According to you... Pretty presumptous on your part :facepalm:

DoJoTheSlasher
06-13-2011, 11:48 AM
THANK YOU! He def top 40. If you have him in your top 5-25 your just caught in the moment now.

He's easily top 30 and will be top 20 after his career.....

Do you have Allen Iverson in your top 30? Because that would be laughable.

Jamiecballer
06-13-2011, 12:10 PM
Where does he rank? Just a touch above Andrea Bargnani, obviously.

Hawkeye15
06-13-2011, 12:17 PM
I still attest a case can be made for Dirk being a top 15 player at this point.

Hellcrooner
06-13-2011, 12:52 PM
I can play this game too. Since I'm on my phone il just erase all the wrong answers.

-Wilt
-Kareem
-Moses Malone
-Hakeem
-Barkley
-Shaquille
-Robinson
-Duncan
-KG

Havliceck
Barry
O Robertson
J West
Jordan
Bird
kobe bryant
Magic

When I get home ill take a closer look, hopefully you provide some reasoning for the players not listed

just a few, dont have th etime to go at all of them you leave oput the LAST PG to lead his team to titles? back to back no less in thomas?


You leave out Dr J who has 1 ring like dirk but was the HANDS DOWN FACE of basketball for the 70s?

You leave out MIkan who got the first thre peat ever, got rules changed to try to stop him got 5 rings and got the games anounced like " tonight the Knicks vs George Mikan".

How bout Reed? that prevented a laker ring just from fear on him when injured and all he simply appeared in the game?

and so on an on on


Seriously?

Come on.
Learn some history of the game.

Tanakid777
06-13-2011, 01:35 PM
First imo i think thomas was better but thats me

second at the end of the day even if we deem dirk unguardable (which hes not but very close) , he couldnt guard any of those legends at pf or even center. So its very hard to have him in top 20 solely because he couldnt even guard ben wallace on his good day(ok maybe a bit extreme but you get the point!). His offensive production would just be cancelled out by his lack of defense and rebounding on the other end. I would give him top 25-30 overall, and top 5 pure shooter now. Dirk is a great great player but not top 20 now....
I love the way eveyone underrates his rebounding. And everyone is using advanced stats, but no one mentions the fact that Dirk has more defensive win shares over the last decade than Kobe. I'm not saying he's a better defender, but his D is not as bad as many think. Ask the Mavs who calls the opponent's play out before they begin to run it

funkybudda
06-13-2011, 02:14 PM
I dont think he is top 15 now...

He maybe Top 25... I know he can shoot but he doesnt have good shot selection, doesnt rebound good, and also dont have good defense, I dont even think he is a top 5 PF ever...

he doesn't have good shot selection? You must be smokin' some bad stuff, in fact I can add he has great clutch shot selections...

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 03:05 PM
Malone is overrated. Longivity is all he had. He was never known to come up big in tthe postseason.


Thank you. I've been saying Malone is overrated and I've challenged people to actually debate my assertion that Dirk is better. So far, no takers.

This is what I posted earlier:

Again, I'd like to see someone debate my original assertion that Dirk is better then Malone rather then just ignoring it and assuming Malone is better because he played forever.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=duncati01&y1=2011&p2=garneke01&y2=2011&p3=nowitdi01&y3=2011&p4=malonka01&y4=2004&p5=barklch01&y5=2000&p6=barklch01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html

I've already pointed out Dirk is MUCH better in the postseason then the Mailman, especially relative to the regular season. If we look at their careers, Dirk's prime (or best 3 years) are better then Malone's best 3 years. Dirk has led the league in PER twice, in WS/48 3 times and Win Shares twice. Comparing their actual individual numbers, look at Dirk's 3 best years vs. Malone's 3 best years and the numbers are pretty even with maybe a slight edge to Dirk.

What Malone has on Dirk is time. But should that be used to say he is better then Dirk? Because he played forever? Dirk is pretty even in terms of their peak and he's definitely better in the postseason, so why isn't Dirk better then Malone?

Hellcrooner
06-13-2011, 03:11 PM
stats stats stats.

Wanna know someting funny?

Karl had to deal with Magic and Bird in his early eyars.

then he had to deal with Hakeem and Jordan.

thats 4 out of the 10 best players ever. Including number 1 and 2

Then he was obviosly too old after 1998.

Dirk was YOUNG on the Lakers three peat.

For when he reched prime Duncan and Shaq were Worn out.

he hasnt won until KOBE has worn out ( much to the dismay of kopbe fanboys) adn al the lakers have a fenomenal breakdown of being tired after3 trips to the finals + internal locker room problesm.

So, tell me again, what makes dirk better than karl?

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 03:21 PM
stats stats stats.

Wanna know someting funny?

Karl had to deal with Magic and Bird in his early eyars.

then he had to deal with Hakeem and Jordan.

thats 4 out of the 10 best players ever. Including number 1 and 2

Then he was obviosly too old after 1998.

Dirk was YOUNG on the Lakers three peat.

For when he reched prime Duncan and Shaq were Worn out.

he hasnt won until KOBE has worn out ( much to the dismay of kopbe fanboys) adn al the lakers have a fenomenal breakdown of being tired after 4 trips to the finals + internal locker room problesm.

So, tell me again, what makes dirk better than karl?

Between Duncan, Shaq and Kobe, that's a lot of competition. Duncan is the greatest PF ever. Shaq is probably one of the top 3 Centers ever and in his peak, he was the most unstoppable human being. Both are easily top 10 players all-time. And Kobe is at least to 15 all-time, maybe top 10.

But since you seem to be obsessing about who each had to deal with other all-time greats, when did Karl Malone ever beat 3 talents like Lebron, Wade and Bosh when they're all on one team I might add?

Furthermore, it still doesn't change the fact that statistically Dirk has been much better in the playoffs than Karl. You can't change that fact. Dirk raises his game in the playoffs. The Mailman shrunk in the playoffs (and a pretty sharp decline too when you compare to other players).

And you say stats stats stats? Then what the heck are you using to compare them? The Mailman's superior ring total? Oh wait.......

There's no doubt that Karl was a great player for a VERY long time and he deserves props for that but that doesn't change the fact that he shrunk in the playoffs. Over his entire career, which includes a lot of playoff games, he had a pretty sharp decline in playoff #'s vs. regular season #'s. For all the grief Dirk has gotten in the past, he always brought his A game in the playoffs. Did he have a couple of bad games here and there? Sure, just like any other great player. But cumulatively, he's still been better in the playoffs.

PhillyFaninLA
06-13-2011, 03:24 PM
My all time PFrank:

1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. Barkley (can switch 2 or 3 if you want)
4. Garnett
5. Hayes
6. Petit
7. McHale
8. Rodman
9. and 10. Can not decide so maybe its a tie...Kemp and Dirk


He is not a better player today then yesterday. Titles require having the right players at the right time with the right coach. So 24 hours and some new jewelry don't change my opinion, especially when he had a whole career.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 03:27 PM
He is not a better player today then yesterday.

You're right. He isn't. But he was a top 5 PF before today and getting a ring isn't going to hurt his case...

Since I've already made my case for Dirk in this thread, I'll just point you to that post.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18222413&postcount=68

JordansBulls
06-13-2011, 03:31 PM
My all time PFrank:

1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. Barkley (can switch 2 or 3 if you want)
4. Garnett
5. Hayes
6. Petit
7. McHale
8. Rodman
9. and 10. Can not decide so maybe its a tie...Kemp and Dirk


He is not a better player today then yesterday. Titles require having the right players at the right time with the right coach. So 24 hours and some new jewelry don't change my opinion, especially when he had a whole career.

This has to be some type of joke list. How the **** is Rodman better than Dirk? The Mavs would never probably had even made the playoffs if Rodman was it's best player over Dirk.

PhillyFaninLA
06-13-2011, 03:33 PM
You're right. He isn't. But he was a top 5 PF before today and getting a ring isn't going to hurt his case...

Since I've already made my case for Dirk in this thread, I'll just point you to that post.

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18222413&postcount=68

I'd be willing to move Dirk up to 8th on my list but not higher. If he give another 4 or 5 years at a high level I'll move him up, and I do think he is on the cusp of the hall, but right now I'm not willing to put him ahead of guys like Petit, McHale, or Barkley.

PhillyFaninLA
06-13-2011, 03:34 PM
This has to be some type of joke list. How the **** is Rodman better than Dirk? The Mavs would never probably had even made the playoffs if Rodman was it's best player over Dirk.

So you disagree = has to be a type of joke list.

Good to know.


edit: You are right that Rodman probably wouldn't have led this team the way Dirk did. They are different types of players and Dallas needed Dirks offense. Different styles doesn't mean better or worse. I stand by my list regardless of this one objection, you did nothing to convince me anything on it is wrong.

mttwlsn16
06-13-2011, 03:37 PM
one better than lebron ;)

C_Mund
06-13-2011, 04:12 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=duncati01&y1=2011&p2=garneke01&y2=2011&p3=nowitdi01&y3=2011&p4=malonka01&y4=2004&p5=barklch01&y5=2000&p6=barklch01

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nowitdi01.html

I've already pointed out Dirk is MUCH better in the postseason then the Mailman, especially relative to the regular season. If we look at their careers, Dirk's prime (or best 3 years) are better then Malone's best 3 years. Dirk has led the league in PER twice, in WS/48 3 times and Win Shares twice. Comparing their actual individual numbers, look at Dirk's 3 best years vs. Malone's 3 best years and the numbers are pretty even with maybe a slight edge to Dirk.

What Malone has on Dirk is time. But should that be used to say he is better then Dirk? Because he played forever? Dirk is pretty even in terms of their peak and he's definitely better in the postseason, so why isn't Dirk better then Malone?

Agreed. It should also be pointed out that Malone was only half of the duo that was the cornerstone of that franchise forever. Stockton was a pimp.

I think what a lot of people are forgetting is the impact Dirk has had on the game. Never has somebody of his stature been able to shoot the ball the same way, and really there's been very few unguardable shots in the history of the game...skyhook, MJ fallaway, etc.
I even read somehting about Rodman being able to guard Nowitzki and rating him higher. Rodman was a beast, but by pushing Dirk away from the net into a 12-foot isolation (which he did to other pf's in order to slow them down) he'd actually be putting Dirk in perfect scoring position. I dunno. The whole idea of ranking players is so convoluted but I have a feeling that Dirk's unique skill set will jump him up a few rankings when all is said and done.

showtym24
06-13-2011, 04:45 PM
Idk. Malone had like 36000 points and like 10000 rebounds but Dirk has a ring now and will be top 5 in points after his career.

Dirk didnt have a road block named MJ though.

Id go.

Timmy
Malone
Dirk
KG
Barkley

MickeyMgl
06-13-2011, 07:13 PM
The vast majority of people on this forum never actually saw the players who they are listing in the conversation even play.

Speaking for myself, the only player I listed that I didn't actually see play was Hayes. His career numbers can't be ignored.

MickeyMgl
06-13-2011, 07:16 PM
Was it dirk who beat them, or was it his team after several years of failing to do so?

Ultimately, it's the team. No player, no matter how great, wins a championship singlehandedly. But on Dirk's behalf, it has to be said that he played the way your best player should play. He hit all the big shots they needed him to hit.

Hawkeye15
06-13-2011, 07:24 PM
to anyone rating Dirk above KG, please provide me your case.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 07:28 PM
to anyone rating Dirk above KG, please provide me your case.

No case from me. However,

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=duncati01&y1=2011&p2=garneke01&y2=2011&p3=nowitdi01&y3=2011&p4=malonka01&y4=2004&p5=barklch01&y5=2000&p6=barklch01

It is somewhat interesting to see Dirk with a better WS/48, and PER then Garnett in both the regular season and the postseason. However, as I mentioned earlier, KG's D is what separates the two for me. And there is no doubt in my mind that defensively, KG's #'s are underrepresented in those numbers.

theheatles
06-13-2011, 07:31 PM
Tim Duncan
Dirk
Malone
Garnett
Barkley

MickeyMgl
06-13-2011, 07:32 PM
So you disagree = has to be a type of joke list.

Good to know.


edit: You are right that Rodman probably wouldn't have led this team the way Dirk did. They are different types of players and Dallas needed Dirks offense. Different styles doesn't mean better or worse. I stand by my list regardless of this one objection, you did nothing to convince me anything on it is wrong.

Rodman was a great power forward, and for my money, the greatest defensive player ever. Certainly the best at the defensive end that I've seen. But little to no offensive skills means he can't be in my top ten of power forwards.

1-800-STFU
06-13-2011, 07:33 PM
Top 20 all-time

Hawkeye15
06-13-2011, 07:34 PM
No case from me. However,

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=duncati01&y1=2011&p2=garneke01&y2=2011&p3=nowitdi01&y3=2011&p4=malonka01&y4=2004&p5=barklch01&y5=2000&p6=barklch01

It is somewhat interesting to see Dirk with a better WS/48, and PER then Garnett in both the regular season and the postseason. However, as I mentioned earlier, KG's D is what separates the two for me. And there is no doubt in my mind that defensively, KG's #'s are underrepresented in those numbers.

Let's revisit that stat when Dirk has 2 years of his decline factored in.....

And yes, you factor in defense, dominance as a rebounder, and a passer, and KG wins, easily

Bruno
06-13-2011, 07:36 PM
Duncan
Malone
KG
Dirk
Barkley

We're witnessing the end of the greatest PF era in NBA history, IMO.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 07:38 PM
Let's revisit that stat when Dirk has 2 years of his decline factored in.....

And yes, you factor in defense, dominance as a rebounder, and a passer, and KG wins, easily

That's true. Dirk hasn't hit his decline yet. Although I still do wonder how much of a drop off he'll see in his game as he continues to age. His stroke is something that's not going to leave him. I don't think his decline is going to be as sharp as KG's is. But I guess we'll see.

Hawkeye15
06-13-2011, 07:39 PM
Duncan
Malone
KG
Dirk
Barkley

We're witnessing the end of the greatest PF era in NBA history, IMO.

great point, but hopefully guys like Blake, Love, and Aldridge for example can continue the trend

Hawkeye15
06-13-2011, 07:42 PM
That's true. Dirk hasn't hit his decline yet. Although I still do wonder how much of a drop off he'll see in his game as he continues to age. His stroke is something that's not going to leave him. I don't think his decline is going to be as sharp as KG's is. But I guess we'll see.

well, the thing that killed KG's decline was starting to miss games and get banged up. Happens to everyone. And when you factor in that Dirk in his defensive prime can't touch even current KG, the all time rankings will remain the same imo. During the C's championship year, KG still had a PER over 25, and ws/48 over 0.200. So he killed it that season/playoffs.

Chronz
06-13-2011, 07:50 PM
Let me start with this desperation jab



Seriously?
Come on.
Learn some history of the game.
Mentioning cute for TV moments doesnt make you knowledgeable

I KNOW you dont have a better understanding of NBA's history when you mention stuff your average 15 year old would know just from watching one of the many neat NBA Retrospective DVD's and infomercials, have you ever tried your hand at analyzing the game? No of course not, you only step into the statistical realm when it supports your case, when it doesnt, you say things like stats stats stats......

Sorry croon but mentioning instances that have been etched into the mind of just about every fan whos ever seen a commercial on NBATV would know, doesnt make you knowledgeable, it makes you predictable and limited in your defense.



just a few, dont have th etime to go at all of them you leave oput the LAST PG to lead his team to titles? back to back no less in thomas?

Am I suppose to give him extra credit for being a PG?


You leave out Dr J who has 1 ring like dirk but was the HANDS DOWN FACE of basketball for the 70s?

Lacked the competitive fire Dirk has, his best days were in the ABA (Weaker league) and he won his ring in less impressive fashion(Aging Sidekick). Dirk is EASILY better than broken jumpshot Doc.


You leave out MIkan who got the first thre peat ever, got rules changed to try to stop him got 5 rings and got the games anounced like " tonight the Knicks vs George Mikan".

Of course the rules changed, the NBA was in its infancy, whats important is how those rule changes effected him once the game began to look more and more like the game it has evolved to today. That wouldnt happen until the ABA and NBA merged, but in between then you can make decent estimates about what players would translate well. For instance the fact that an old Wilt outrebounded and outplayed a Prime Kareem tells me Prime Wilt would have done just fine. Mikan however, could not handle the 24 second shot clock, the widened lane (which continued to grow after his retirement).

Mikan sucks compared to Dirk, the guy couldnt even handle running up and down in an NBA game, THINK about that for a second. This isnt like the Magic waiting for an old Kareem to jog up the court, we're talking about a full blown lumberer.


How bout Reed? that prevented a laker ring just from fear on him when injured and all he simply appeared in the game?

LMFAO I dont believe that narrative, superstitious BS imo. I do not doubt it gave them an emotional lift to start the game but to think it carried over for 48 minutes because the house never stopped rocking is dumb IMO. Anyways, yes hes above him because Willis Reed fell off too early in his career. Some people have Ewing above him (which is insane IMO), if hes your comparison then Dirk tops you easily as well. Willis was the better player at his absolute peak tho, too bad that was like 2-3 years.



and so on an on on

LMFAO you didnt say anything, you just mentioned cute made for TV moments. Try examining their playoff careers, production, longevity. These are the things that matter

Bruno
06-13-2011, 07:54 PM
great point, but hopefully guys like Blake, Love, and Aldridge for example can continue the trend

I'd love that, and I think it's realistic, baring injury. I think the vast majority of great "big men" from here out will be PFs. I don't want to say the era of dominant Centers are over (because you never know who will come around), but to me it seems like todays game caters to athletic, versatile forwards who can dominate as far out as the elbow during games.

Kobes a Killer
06-13-2011, 08:02 PM
Let me start with this desperation jab


Mentioning cute for TV moments doesnt make you knowledgeable

I KNOW you dont have a better understanding of NBA's history when you mention stuff your average 15 year old would know just from watching one of the many neat NBA Retrospective DVD's and infomercials, have you ever tried your hand at analyzing the game? No of course not, you only step into the statistical realm when it supports your case, when it doesnt, you say things like stats stats stats......

Sorry croon but mentioning instances that have been etched into the mind of just about every fan whos ever seen a commercial on NBATV would know, doesnt make you knowledgeable, it makes you predictable and limited in your defense.



Am I suppose to give him extra credit for being a PG?


Lacked the competitive fire Dirk has, his best days were in the ABA (Weaker league) and he won his ring in less impressive fashion(Aging Sidekick). Dirk is EASILY better than broken jumpshot Doc.


Of course the rules changed, the NBA was in its infancy, whats important is how those rule changes effected him once the game began to look more and more like the game it has evolved to today. That wouldnt happen until the ABA and NBA merged, but in between then you can make decent estimates about what players would translate well. For instance the fact that Wilt outrebounded and outplayed an old Kareem tells me Prime Wilt would have done just fine. Mikan however, could not handle the 24 second shot clock, the widened lane (which continued to grow after his retirement).

Mikan sucks compared to Dirk, the guy couldnt even handle running up and down in an NBA game, THINK about that for a second. This isnt like the Magic waiting for an old Kareem to jog up the court, we're talking about a full blown lumberer.


LMFAO I dont believe that narrative, superstitious BS imo. I do not doubt it gave them an emotional lift to start the game but to think it carried over for 48 minutes because the house never stopped rocking is dumb IMO. Anyways, yes hes above him because Willis Reed fell off too early in his career. Some people have Ewing above him (which is insane IMO), if hes your comparison then Dirk tops you easily as well. Willis was the better player at his absolute peak tho, too bad that was like 2-3 years.


LMFAO you didnt say anything, you just mentioned cute made for TV moments. Try examining their playoff careers, production, longevity. These are the things that matter

You just ****ed him up

LakersA's49ers
06-13-2011, 08:38 PM
top 15

TRF929
06-13-2011, 09:12 PM
Looking at this list of top players can you honestly argue that Dirk blongs in the top 25? This article was written this year and now that Dirk won a Championship he's going to move up, but how much. I just stopped posting after Dirk.

I would honestly put him in the 25-35 ranking, but it's hard for me to rank him any higher because he's so one demensional. He's an awesome shooter and I'd rank him higher in the best shooters but not all-time.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Shaquille O’Neal
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Magic Johnson
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
8. Tim Duncan
9. Larry Bird
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Jerry West
12. Elgin Baylor
13. Hakeem Olajuwon
14. Bob Petit
15. Moses Malone
16. Julius Erving
17. John Havlicek
18. Karl Malone
19. Isiah Thomas
20. Charles Barkley
21. Rick Barry
22. John Stockton
23. Elvin Hayes
24. Bob Cousy
25. David Robinson
26. Kevin McHale
27. Scottie Pippen
28. Jason Kidd
29. George Mikan
30. Kevin Garnett
31. LeBron James
32. Willis Reed
33. Wes Unseld
34. Nate Thurmond
35. Dolph Schayes
36. Walt Frazier
37. Patrick Ewing
38. Jerry Lucas
39. Gary Payton
40. Allen Iverson
41. Billy Cunningham
42. Clyde Drexler
43. Dominique Wilkins
44. Dave Cowens
45. George Gervin
46. Bob McAdoo
47. Earl Monroe
48. Dennis Rodman
49. Dwyane Wade
50. Steve Nash
51. Walt Bellamy
52. Tiny Archibald
53. Dennis Johnson
54. Reggie Miller
55. Dirk Nowitzki

http://www.interbasket.net/news/7683...all-time-slam/

I think it's hilarious how people argue for him in the top 20. Letting people know Dirks decline won't be like Duncan's or KG, as they play in the middle defense, so they get banged around a lot more than Dirk. IMO the 2nd key to the Mavs winning was Chandler, without his inside presence, there's no way Mavs win.

Have to add that I rank Kidd higher all time

Young2Kinsler
06-13-2011, 09:14 PM
I rank Dirk somewhere in the top 50-75 players of all-time. As for PF's it's like this:
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Karl Malone
4. Charles Barkley
5. Dolph Shayes
6. Kevin McHale
7. Bob Pettit
8. Dennis Rodman
9. Elvin Hayes
10. Dirk Nowitzki

So, I got him listed in the top 10 PF's of all-time but that's probably just because I'm forgetting someone. I love Dirk, but please don't overrate him. There are 25 players that I would take over him and I already mentioned 9 players in his position that I would rather have.

Your list is simply doo-doo

Chacarron
06-13-2011, 09:15 PM
Top 30.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 09:29 PM
well, the thing that killed KG's decline was starting to miss games and get banged up. Happens to everyone. And when you factor in that Dirk in his defensive prime can't touch even current KG, the all time rankings will remain the same imo. During the C's championship year, KG still had a PER over 25, and ws/48 over 0.200. So he killed it that season/playoffs.

For what its worth, I don't think Dirk will ever pass KG. But I do believe his decline won't be as bad because of the type of game he has. To begin with, he's not that great defensively. Most of his value comes on the offensive end. And I think a shooter like Dirk ages less then say a guy like KG who'll rely more on this athleticism.

Just considering the way Dirk shoots the ball (with that high release), it's always going to be tough to stop. His ability to go to the line will obviously fade as he gets older but his ability to shoot won't go away. I can't really think of an accurate comparison (since Dirk is so unique) so this is obviously guess work on my part.

There's no doubt KG's prime will always be better and even by the end of their respective careers, again, no doubt KG ends up being better.

Big Game Son
06-13-2011, 09:31 PM
2011 = Dirk is the best player in the NBA. Doubt me? He beat Oklahoma, LA Lakers and Miami Heat and led his team to do so. Outstanding and the past season top player easily goes to Monsieur Dirk!

All Time.... let his career finish, but he moved up quite abit with that ring of his. ;)

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 09:33 PM
2011 = Dirk is the best player in the NBA. Doubt me? He beat Oklahoma, LA Lakers and Miami Heat and led his team to do so. Outstanding and the past season top player easily goes to Monsieur Dirk!

All Time.... let his career finish, but he moved up quite abit with that ring of his. ;)

So was Chauncey Billups the best player in the NBA in 2004 after he won Finals MVP?

Was Isiah better then MJ and the best player in the NBA when his Pistons beat the Bulls and he won the Finals MVP?

Swashcuff
06-13-2011, 09:35 PM
2011 = dirk is the best player in the nba. Doubt me? the dallas mavericks beat oklahoma, la lakers and miami heat and led his team to do so. Outstanding and the past season top player easily goes to monsieur dirk!

All time.... Let his career finish, but he moved up quite abit with that ring of his. ;)

fixed!

Big Game Son
06-13-2011, 09:38 PM
So was Chauncey Billups the best player in the NBA in 2004 after he won Finals MVP?

Was Isiah better then MJ and the best player in the NBA when his Pistons beat the Bulls and he won the Finals MVP?

Isaiah yup...for one year.

Billups not all year I can't say that but he had an INCREDIBLE FINALS! That was one of those very odd super "team" ones that was a beauty to watch.

Lets give some credit to these folks sometimes. Isaiah outdid Jordan once....like the old saying says "Happens to the best of em." Jordan gets the "best player to ever play" award that's good enough I think. lol

Swashcuff
06-13-2011, 09:40 PM
Isaiah yup...for one year.

Billups not all year I can't say that but he had an INCREDIBLE FINALS! That was one of those very odd super "team" ones that was a beauty to watch.

Lets give some credit to these folks sometimes. Isaiah outdid Jordan once....like the old saying says "Happens to the best of em." Jordan gets the "best player to ever play" award that's good enough I think. lol

I like how u bolded team..... seems somewhere in your logic you forgot that however.

Big Game Son
06-13-2011, 09:41 PM
fixed!

Clever guy! Hahah but no I just think Dirk really did orchestrate that team too. He played SO WELL off the ball as well. The Dallas team truly did do it. But you have to admit Dirk was absolutely an a very rare elite level where when its crunch time....whether you cheer for him or not...when the shot goes up you go..."well that's likely in"

Big Game Son
06-13-2011, 09:43 PM
I like how u bolded team..... seems somewhere in your logic you forgot that however.

The Dallas team won and they totally deserve it. I'm just giving Dirk the credit he deserves in being the best player in the NBA for one playoffs and mostly in the season. They were a great team, but they had that star. Detroit when they won rly mixed things up...but Chauncey then was amazing. Why can't I give Dirk this credit? Is there a specific reason why you (Swashcuff) feel the need to have to treat my opinion as some of sort of knock on some non-existing ideal?

pastrecedes
06-13-2011, 09:44 PM
Easily the 2nd best player in history! Who's with me?!
Go Mavs!!!

Hellcrooner
06-13-2011, 09:44 PM
Let me start with this desperation jab


Mentioning cute for TV moments doesnt make you knowledgeable

I KNOW you dont have a better understanding of NBA's history when you mention stuff your average 15 year old would know just from watching one of the many neat NBA Retrospective DVD's and infomercials, have you ever tried your hand at analyzing the game? No of course not, you only step into the statistical realm when it supports your case, when it doesnt, you say things like stats stats stats......

Sorry croon but mentioning instances that have been etched into the mind of just about every fan whos ever seen a commercial on NBATV would know, doesnt make you knowledgeable, it makes you predictable and limited in your defense.



Am I suppose to give him extra credit for being a PG?


Lacked the competitive fire Dirk has, his best days were in the ABA (Weaker league) and he won his ring in less impressive fashion(Aging Sidekick). Dirk is EASILY better than broken jumpshot Doc.


Of course the rules changed, the NBA was in its infancy, whats important is how those rule changes effected him once the game began to look more and more like the game it has evolved to today. That wouldnt happen until the ABA and NBA merged, but in between then you can make decent estimates about what players would translate well. For instance the fact that an old Wilt outrebounded and outplayed a Prime Kareem tells me Prime Wilt would have done just fine. Mikan however, could not handle the 24 second shot clock, the widened lane (which continued to grow after his retirement).

Mikan sucks compared to Dirk, the guy couldnt even handle running up and down in an NBA game, THINK about that for a second. This isnt like the Magic waiting for an old Kareem to jog up the court, we're talking about a full blown lumberer.


LMFAO I dont believe that narrative, superstitious BS imo. I do not doubt it gave them an emotional lift to start the game but to think it carried over for 48 minutes because the house never stopped rocking is dumb IMO. Anyways, yes hes above him because Willis Reed fell off too early in his career. Some people have Ewing above him (which is insane IMO), if hes your comparison then Dirk tops you easily as well. Willis was the better player at his absolute peak tho, too bad that was like 2-3 years.


LMFAO you didnt say anything, you just mentioned cute made for TV moments. Try examining their playoff careers, production, longevity. These are the things that matter

oh you think i need to go into some competition bout whos Dick is bigger?

I dont do that i have no time for stupid competitions such as that.

I happen to be watching since 85 so many of hte players i KNOW are better just from watching.

and i obvilusly pay tribute to the past.

your attack on teh past because of this or that and the competition woudl leave us to the point of MJ or MJ(johnson) dont matter a **** because they dont play today and balh blah blah.

First is STUPID to compare players because you will NEVER be able to factor everything .

Second is stupid to compared eras but you can say how dominant some players were IN THEIR era, Babe ruth someone? how would do old fat babe ruth today? does it make him not a great player and greated to whoever ****ard i dont know his name that is hot now?


want to live in delusion like the rest of the teen slaves of the moment from Xbox generation that have no respect for the past, that have no knowledge, that have no insight that are not able to concentrate on a textbook if it does not have fancy pictures and bIG BIG BIG letters¿


thats your choice.

NOT MINE.

enjoy your time.

Swashcuff
06-13-2011, 09:44 PM
Clever guy! Hahah but no I just think Dirk really did orchestrate that team too. He played SO WELL off the ball as well. The Dallas team truly did do it. But you have to admit Dirk was absolutely an a very rare elite level where when its crunch time....whether you cheer for him or not...when the shot goes up you go..."well that's likely in"

Dude I agree, Jason Terry said it best. It however wasn't the first time he played so well however. It is the first time his teammates came up so good in the playoffs. It's still a team accomplishment however.

The MAVS proved that a cohesive team unit is > 2.5 superstars who are still learning how to play together.

Big Game Son
06-13-2011, 09:46 PM
Dude I agree, Jason Terry said it best. It however wasn't the first time he played so well however. It is the first time his teammates came up so good in the playoffs. It's still a team accomplishment however.

The MAVS proved that a cohesive team unit is > 2.5 superstars who are still learning how to play together.

Disregard last comment. We agree generally. I just think Dirk was the man (on and off the ball) through most of this season.

MVPKOBE43
06-13-2011, 09:49 PM
I'd definitely be okay with placing him in the top 25 maybe 20. You?

top 100. hes not that great and also we always forget what everyone else has done to this point.

Swashcuff
06-13-2011, 09:50 PM
The Dallas team won and they totally deserve it. I'm just giving Dirk the credit he deserves in being the best player in the NBA for one playoffs and mostly in the season. They were a great team, but they had that star. Detroit when they won rly mixed things up...but Chauncey then was amazing. Why can't I give Dirk this credit? Is there a specific reason why you (Swashcuff) feel the need to have to treat my opinion as some of sort of knock on some non-existing ideal?

What? Dude don't flatter yourself. I saw something which I disagreed with and I commented. That's what we do on forums such as this. I don't think I've ever seen you before.

When I said you got lost I meant in saying Isiah was better than MJ because he beat him. Isiah didn't beat MJ the Pistons beat the Bulls. Because your team beats another doesn't mean that team's best player is better than the other. I never said you shouldn't give credit where credit is due. I am just saying that your logic for saying who is the best player in the league is not a very good one. It has too many holes.

edit: I saw you previous comment after posting this.

Hawkeye15
06-13-2011, 09:57 PM
For what its worth, I don't think Dirk will ever pass KG. But I do believe his decline won't be as bad because of the type of game he has. To begin with, he's not that great defensively. Most of his value comes on the offensive end. And I think a shooter like Dirk ages less then say a guy like KG who'll rely more on this athleticism.

Just considering the way Dirk shoots the ball (with that high release), it's always going to be tough to stop. His ability to go to the line will obviously fade as he gets older but his ability to shoot won't go away. I can't really think of an accurate comparison (since Dirk is so unique) so this is obviously guess work on my part.

There's no doubt KG's prime will always be better and even by the end of their respective careers, again, no doubt KG ends up being better.

I couldn't agree more. Two things that never go away are height and shooting ability.

But yep, KG will be the better player when the all time rankings are settled.

Lakers + Giants
06-13-2011, 10:06 PM
He ranks up there with KG,Wade, and Jerry West. About top 25 of all time

koreancabbage
06-13-2011, 10:11 PM
i don't think he's done much with his career to warrant a top 25 consideration. everyone is forgetting the great ones of the past. he's got one MVP, one finals MVP, one championship - other than growing career numbers, he's not top 25 material.

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 10:17 PM
I'd be willing to move Dirk up to 8th on my list but not higher. If he give another 4 or 5 years at a high level I'll move him up, and I do think he is on the cusp of the hall, but right now I'm not willing to put him ahead of guys like Petit, McHale, or Barkley.

It's time I leave this thread and never return. Ignorance is truly frustrating to witness sometimes.

Anyways, here's a list of players you could make an argument over Dirk: T.Duncan, K. Malone, K. Garnett, C. Barkley. That's pretty much it. I'd put him over Barkley and maybe Garnett (although that'd be a great debate, but Dirk has more time to add to the resume).

For you to: "Oh, I guess I'll bump him up a little, once he does more than win an MVP, Finals MVP, Championship as "the guy", 13 great years including 10 All Stars, 11 All NBAs. He needs a little more longevity." makes you look like you're low-balling the **** out of him and agreeing that you did so, only to make your original list look like a bigger joke than it was (if that's even possible.)

I'm usually open-minded to discussion, but when people troll the forums and don't know what they're talking about, that's where I draw the line.

You're entitled to your own opinion I suppose, but I can genuinely say your opinion is wrong. Dirk is one of the greatest scorers of all time, his offensive game is the whole package, and he shows up when it matters. For you to compare a good rebounder and defender (Rodman) who was always the third wheel and averaged about 10 PER less than him over his career is beyond a joke.

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 10:20 PM
i don't think he's done much with his career to warrant a top 25 consideration. everyone is forgetting the great ones of the past. he's got one MVP, one finals MVP, one championship - other than growing career numbers, he's not top 25 material.

Can you name 25 players who have that? No, you can't, because they're aren't. Don't act like that's not impressive in addition to his 10 All Stars and 11 All NBAs.

He's still in his prime, why don't we let him finish his career before you make a ridiculous statement like so. Winning another championship and/or MVP is not out of question. :cool:

Hawkeye15
06-13-2011, 10:22 PM
Anyways, here's a list of players you could make an argument over Dirk: T.Duncan, K. Malone, K. Garnett, C. Barkley. That's pretty much it. I'd put him over Barkley and maybe Garnett (although that'd be a great debate, but Dirk has more time to add to the resume)

I would be interested in reading why you think Dirk should be ranked above KG, and I mean that with all due respect man.

Hawkeye15
06-13-2011, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by MacFitz92


Can you name 25 players who have that? No, you can't, because they're aren't. Don't act like that's not impressive in addition to his 10 All Stars and 11 All NBAs.

agreed, 100%. Which is why I have him in the top 15 discussion


He's still in his prime, why don't we let him finish his career before you make a ridiculous statement like so. Winning another championship and/or MVP is not out of question. :cool:

To be fair, he was simply referring to right now, not Dirk's career when all is said and done

Hellcrooner
06-13-2011, 10:28 PM
Can you name 25 players who have that? No, you can't, because they're aren't. Don't act like that's not impressive in addition to his 10 All Stars and 11 All NBAs.

He's still in his prime, why don't we let him finish his career before you make a ridiculous statement like so. Winning another championship and/or MVP is not out of question. :cool:

1bob pettit
2 bob cousy
3 b rusell
4 wilt chamberlain
5 wes unseld
6 willis reed
7 kareem
8 dr J
9 dave cowens
10 bob mcadoo
11 bill walton
12 moses malone
13 larry bird
14 magic johnson
15 michael jordan
16 hakeem olajuwon
17 david robinson
18 shaq
19 duncan
20 kobe
21 k g

before all is said and done some active players too

and of coourse in the first years of the league there WAS NO MVP award, leaving out the likes of Mikan for example.

sooooo

out of the top 20- thats a LOCK

Hawkeye15
06-13-2011, 10:32 PM
we got it Crooner. You absolutely despise Dirk and will never be able to make a rational argument for doing so.

Hellcrooner
06-13-2011, 10:34 PM
^ dirk fans were barking bout 1 ring and 1 mvp ok, there you got the list.

wheres the bias?

Anyway, 10 years from now the "best euro ever" will INDEED be a spaniard withouth ANY doubts and he will be rocking a Wolves uniform :p

Swashcuff
06-13-2011, 10:44 PM
1bob pettit
2 bob cousy
3 b rusell
4 wilt chamberlain
5 wes unseld
6 willis reed
7 kareem
8 dr J
9 dave cowens
10 bob mcadoo
11 bill walton
12 moses malone
13 larry bird
14 magic johnson
15 michael jordan
16 hakeem olajuwon
17 david robinson
18 shaq
19 duncan
20 kobe
21 k g

before all is said and done some active players too

and of coourse in the first years of the league there WAS NO MVP award, leaving out the likes of Mikan for example.

sooooo

out of the top 20- thats a LOCK

Cowens, Robinson, KG, Cousy, Mcadoo, Pettit, Russell (thought the award was named after him) and Dr J never won Finals MVPs.

Swashcuff
06-13-2011, 10:48 PM
^ dirk fans were barking bout 1 ring and 1 mvp ok, there you got the list.

wheres the bias?

Anyway, 10 years from now the "best euro ever" will INDEED be a spaniard withouth ANY doubts and he will be rocking a Wolves uniform :p

wrong

MVP + Finals MVP + Championship Ring

Hawkeye15
06-13-2011, 10:48 PM
^ dirk fans were barking bout 1 ring and 1 mvp ok, there you got the list.

wheres the bias?

Anyway, 10 years from now the "best euro ever" will INDEED be a spaniard withouth ANY doubts and he will be rocking a Wolves uniform :p

Crooner, its actually very easy to statistically prove Dirk is a top 20 player, and when you add the fact that his team is a perennial 50+ win team, with his value, the argument now shifts to top 15.

I am older than you dude. I understand the oldies. But Dirk has never been seen before (not that I am saying he is one of the top 5-10). I just cant get over your complete neglect about his career.

And we shall see with Rubio. I am suspect on how great he will be.

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 10:55 PM
I would be interested in reading why you think Dirk should be ranked above KG, and I mean that with all due respect man.

His whole career (yes, career) outside of this year, his centers have been: Shawn Bradley, Desegana Diop, Erick Dampier. That's awful. That is what made him appear to be a poor defender (which he was very early in his career). He is actually a solid defender, and the last couple of years (I know this sounds weird, but watch tape and you'll understand) he plays pretty good defense. He keeps in front of his man, and closes out on shots.

With that being said, both players have never played with All Star caliber players (besides KG with Boston). Dirk had Howard (but really not an AS caliber player), and KG had some pretty good teams, but nothing like MJ had, or Malone had, etc. Same goes with Dirk. Terry played great games 4-6, but really isn't your typical "Robin". Dirk carried this team to the Finals, and won it all against three All Star caliber players and you could make an argument that two of them were the the top two players in the world. Garnett won with Pierce, Rondo, and Allen. (Rondo not being what he is now, but still, those players are all greater than anything Dirk has had or does have at the time (generally).

Regular season (career):
Dirk (PER): 23.7
KG (PER): 23.4

Dirk (TS%): 58.3
KG (TS%): 54.9

Playoffs (career):
Dirk (PER): 24.7
KG (PER): 21.7

Dirk (TS%): 58.4
KG (TS%): 51.9

Basically offensively, Dirk has been better throughout his career, and has really dominated KG offensively in the playoffs. Part of that has to do with this: Playoff defense is just tougher, but Dirk's shot can't be guarded. As a defender you try to make him fade-away, but as a scorer that's what he wants.

So the argument comes in that KG was more complete (better rebounder and defender). He was probably a better rebounder (Playoffs: Dirk's 10.4 to KG's 11.1) but defensively is where people have it wrong. Yes KG plays better defense, but Dirk isn't some slouch defensively.

The way I look at it, Dirk plays above average defense and world class offense (the best), and whilst KG was a great scorer as well and played amazing defense. Good offense beats good defense, and in this case it applies even more. Dirk can't be stopped by good defense. You can double him, but that's basically all you can do. I mean this year in the playoffs, for example, Dirk saw: Aldridge, Camby, Batum, Odom, Gasol, Bynum, Artest, Ibaka, Perkins, Durant, Haslem, LeBron, Anthony, etc. None of them had any sort of success whatsoever and that's a fairly strong list. Dirk is very quick, can put the ball on the court (see Game 2 + 4 of Finals) yet he takes unbelievably difficult shots, and usually makes them on a consistent basis. It's impossible to guard. People can try to figure it out, but there's nothing to figure out. Either double him, hope he can't do it all (which has been in past years), or hope he misses (which usually isn't the case.)

Now I realize I have a strong passion for the man, but I am a reasonable person. I can understand why one would argue KG over Dirk and I respect that, but at the same time: Dirk isn't done yet. KG has seen the best of his years diminish. The crazy thing is Dirk's game might allow him to play in his prime even longer.

Is what it is though. Both are all time greats, and neither are even comparable to Rodman. (Again I reiterate this, to just put to shame those who said so.)

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 10:58 PM
1bob pettit
2 bob cousy
3 b rusell
4 wilt chamberlain
5 wes unseld
6 willis reed
7 kareem
8 dr J
9 dave cowens
10 bob mcadoo
11 bill walton
12 moses malone
13 larry bird
14 magic johnson
15 michael jordan
16 hakeem olajuwon
17 david robinson
18 shaq
19 duncan
20 kobe
21 k g

before all is said and done some active players too

and of coourse in the first years of the league there WAS NO MVP award, leaving out the likes of Mikan for example.

sooooo

out of the top 20- thats a LOCK

You're forgetting a pretty important part: Finals MVP

Hellcrooner
06-13-2011, 11:07 PM
You're forgetting a pretty important part: Finals MVP

o so i get that tony parker is better than pettit?

Swashcuff
06-13-2011, 11:08 PM
o so i get that tony parker is better than pettit?

Crooner you are being childish. You are better than that. Be an adult and give Dirk his due respect.

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 11:16 PM
o so i get that tony parker is better than pettit?

Tony Parker hasn't won a League MVP.

I said there hasn't been 25 players with a league MVP and a Finals MVP in the history of the NBA. Don't act like it's some sort of crap accolade along with his 10 All Stars and 11 All NBAs.

Hellcrooner
06-13-2011, 11:30 PM
Crooner you are being childish. You are better than that. Be an adult and give Dirk his due respect.

i have.

he has moved from my top 70 list to my top 40 and is right now 1 inch ahead of Pau.

nothing that two more pau rings vs 0 more for dirk cant fix tough.

IndiansFan337
06-13-2011, 11:34 PM
He's been extremely consistent for the past 11-12 years.

He's won an MVP award, an NBA Finals, and an NBA Finals MVP. He's got to be at 10+ All-Star appearances right now....And they're not cheap ones where he got voted in when he didn't deserve the honor. He has always been appointed by the coaches/players.

I think he's right around the top 20-25 players of all-time right now.

MacFitz92
06-13-2011, 11:35 PM
i have.

he has moved from my top 70 list to my top 40 and is right now 1 inch ahead of Pau.

nothing that two more pau rings vs 0 more for dirk cant fix tough.

Lol.

Swashcuff
06-13-2011, 11:36 PM
i have.

he has moved from my top 70 list to my top 40 and is right now 1 inch ahead of Pau.

nothing that two more pau rings vs 0 more for dirk cant fix tough.

I fully respect your basketball knowledge and your appreciation for the history of the game, but your homerism and disrespect for all all time great such as Dirk is truly unbecoming of someone with such great knowledge of the game.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-13-2011, 11:45 PM
i have.

he has moved from my top 70 list to my top 40 and is right now 1 inch ahead of Pau.

nothing that two more pau rings vs 0 more for dirk cant fix tough.

Do you not like Dirk because he's from Germany or something? I honestly mean no offense, I'm just curious because maybe there's some type of Spain-Germany rivalry???? Or does it have something to do with Pau and your interest in promoting him as the eventual greatest European player of all time?

Whatever the case is, I think your judgment is definitely being clouded on Dirk. You may not like numbers but his numbers don't lie: he's one of the top 5 PFs and top 20 players of all-time. No way he's top 40. That's an insult to Dirk and a clear indication that you have something against him.

gsgs49
06-14-2011, 02:03 PM
Do you not like Dirk because he's from Germany or something? I honestly mean no offense, I'm just curious because maybe there's some type of Spain-Germany rivalry???? Or does it have something to do with Pau and your interest in promoting him as the eventual greatest European player of all time?

Whatever the case is, I think your judgment is definitely being clouded on Dirk. You may not like numbers but his numbers don't lie: he's one of the top 5 PFs and top 20 players of all-time. No way he's top 40. That's an insult to Dirk and a clear indication that you have something against him.

Bingooo!

Chronz
06-14-2011, 02:22 PM
oh you think i need to go into some competition bout whos Dick is bigger?

I dont do that i have no time for stupid competitions such as that.
Then you shouldnt be so quick to insult others KNOWLEDGE. The conversation couldve been alot more civil if you didnt add the "learn your history" bit.


I happen to be watching since 85 so many of hte players i KNOW are better just from watching.
If only you knew how to contextualize and quantify what is youve been watching you would have a firmer grip on reality.


and i obvilusly pay tribute to the past.
No you overrate the past


your attack on teh past because of this or that and the competition woudl leave us to the point of MJ or MJ(johnson) dont matter a **** because they dont play today and balh blah blah.
I counter this argument with you attack the present because they didnt play then and blahblhablhbah blah


First is STUPID to compare players because you will NEVER be able to factor everything .
That doesnt stop you from ranking them does it?


want to live in delusion like the rest of the teen slaves of the moment from Xbox generation that have no respect for the past, that have no knowledge, that have no insight that are not able to concentrate on a textbook if it does not have fancy pictures and bIG BIG BIG letters¿


thats your choice.

NOT MINE.

enjoy your time.

Back to your whos dick is bigger argument ehh. OK if you want to live in a world where blah blah blah and stats stats stats are great rebuttals then fine, just dont get mad when people look down on you. Im usually on your side but when it comes to Dirk your bias shines through.

goeatfish63
06-14-2011, 02:30 PM
dirk is great and is the 4th best PF behind malone, duncan, and KG. as for all time hes not a top 20 player. top 30 maybe but definitely not a top 20

Spurred1
06-14-2011, 02:33 PM
Do you not like Dirk because he's from Germany or something? I honestly mean no offense, I'm just curious because maybe there's some type of Spain-Germany rivalry???? Or does it have something to do with Pau and your interest in promoting him as the eventual greatest European player of all time?

Whatever the case is, I think your judgment is definitely being clouded on Dirk. You may not like numbers but his numbers don't lie: he's one of the top 5 PFs and top 20 players of all-time. No way he's top 40. That's an insult to Dirk and a clear indication that you have something against him.

I think it is more a fetish for Spanish players than anything else. His affection for both Gasols is pretty well covered in this forum and he's hyping up Rubio already, before he's played one NBA game.

Crooner-why don't you just admit you don't like Dirk for whatever reason. (Don't care why, so please don't elaborate) That way, people here will stop talking to brick walls and wasting their time. I've seen people try to provide reasons and logical arguments on why Dirk is an excellent player, but you've responded with insults and implying people just don't know their BB history. While not everyone here is a BB historian, I'm not sure that justifies insulting them. You're starting to look a touch foolish.

But I am curious-if someone insulted your mother or father, would you defend them with such...passion and vigor as you do the Spanish BB players? ;)

SteBO
06-14-2011, 02:42 PM
I think I'll place Dirk among the top 25.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2011, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by MacFitz92

First off, let me say I have said twice here that I think a case can be made for Dirk being top 15, so please understand I hold him in very high respect.


His whole career (yes, career) outside of this year, his centers have been: Shawn Bradley, Desegana Diop, Erick Dampier. That's awful. That is what made him appear to be a poor defender (which he was very early in his career). He is actually a solid defender, and the last couple of years (I know this sounds weird, but watch tape and you'll understand) he plays pretty good defense. He keeps in front of his man, and closes out on shots.

And what centers did KG play with? His Minnesota centers were Nesterovic, Hammonds, Johnson, and Olowokandi. Perkins is overrated as I have always claimed, and as proven when his blanket of defense and his partner in crime KG were taken away. While I have always thought Dirk was an above average defender, and got too much heat for being a poor one, KG is an all world defender, and arguably the top defending big man of the last 15 years.



With that being said, both players have never played with All Star caliber players (besides KG with Boston). Dirk had Howard (but really not an AS caliber player), and KG had some pretty good teams, but nothing like MJ had, or Malone had, etc. Same goes with Dirk. Terry played great games 4-6, but really isn't your typical "Robin". Dirk carried this team to the Finals, and won it all against three All Star caliber players and you could make an argument that two of them were the the top two players in the world. Garnett won with Pierce, Rondo, and Allen. (Rondo not being what he is now, but still, those players are all greater than anything Dirk has had or does have at the time (generally).

Outside of 03-04', KG never had a roster that could get him anywhere in Minnesota, where as Dirk has continually had rosters that helped him deep into the playoffs, with numerous years with HCA in round 1 at least. KG had only one prime year with the C's, and that is the year they won a chip. KG's regular season was actually much stronger that year than Dirk's was this year.


Regular season (career):
Dirk (PER): 23.7
KG (PER): 23.4

Dirk (TS%): 58.3
KG (TS%): 54.9

Playoffs (career):
Dirk (PER): 24.7
KG (PER): 21.7

Dirk (TS%): 58.4
KG (TS%): 51.9

Remember 2 years of KG decline are factored in here. And you pulled up pure scoring statistics, the SINGLE thing Dirk does/did better. How about these:

Regular season:
Dirk (RR): 13
KG (RR): 17.1

Dirk (Ast%): 13.1
KG (Ast%): 19.9

Dirk (Blk%): 2
KG (Blk%): 3.1

Dirk (Drtg): 103
KG(Drgt): 99

Dirk (defensive win shares): 46.5
KG (DWS): 95.5

Basically, I could go on. Playoff its the same story. Dirk is a better scorer. Literally nothing else does he have the edge on KG.


Basically offensively, Dirk has been better throughout his career, and has really dominated KG offensively in the playoffs. Part of that has to do with this: Playoff defense is just tougher, but Dirk's shot can't be guarded. As a defender you try to make him fade-away, but as a scorer that's what he wants.

Scoring wise he has. KG is a superior passer, and creates offensive possessions with offensive rebounding better. Garnett wasn't exactly chopped liver in the scoring department btw. He led the NBA in points and rebounds in 03-04', and was a top 10 scorer the majority of his career. He is top 20 of all time in rebounds and points, as well as blocks.


So the argument comes in that KG was more complete (better rebounder and defender). He was probably a better rebounder (Playoffs: Dirk's 10.4 to KG's 11.1) but defensively is where people have it wrong. Yes KG plays better defense, but Dirk isn't some slouch defensively.

Yes, KG is the more complete player. He wasn't probably a better rebounder, he is a guaranteed better rebounder with multiple rebounding crowns, as well as an NBA record 7 straight 20-10-5 seasons, surpassing only Bird and Barkley. And while Dirk is an underrated defender, KG craps on him in that aspect.


The way I look at it, Dirk plays above average defense and world class offense (the best), and whilst KG was a great scorer as well and played amazing defense. Good offense beats good defense, and in this case it applies even more. Dirk can't be stopped by good defense. You can double him, but that's basically all you can do. I mean this year in the playoffs, for example, Dirk saw: Aldridge, Camby, Batum, Odom, Gasol, Bynum, Artest, Ibaka, Perkins, Durant, Haslem, LeBron, Anthony, etc. None of them had any sort of success whatsoever and that's a fairly strong list. Dirk is very quick, can put the ball on the court (see Game 2 + 4 of Finals) yet he takes unbelievably difficult shots, and usually makes them on a consistent basis. It's impossible to guard. People can try to figure it out, but there's nothing to figure out. Either double him, hope he can't do it all (which has been in past years), or hope he misses (which usually isn't the case.)

KG plays world class defense, and great offense. He is the complete package. We are looking at 13 years of Dirk, and 16 years of KG here. Please don't get caught up in short term thinking man. Dirk is obviously a more talented scorer, but we are also talking about a perennial 20 ppg scorer who led the NBA in efficiency for 5 years in KG. On top of that, he was 1st team all defense nearly half his career, including an MVP, DPOY, and multiple 1st team all NBA's. KG is simply a better all around player.



Now I realize I have a strong passion for the man, but I am a reasonable person. I can understand why one would argue KG over Dirk and I respect that, but at the same time: Dirk isn't done yet. KG has seen the best of his years diminish. The crazy thing is Dirk's game might allow him to play in his prime even longer.

Dirk will most likely have a nicer decline, but his peak was never as good as KG's. In his peak, Garnett was the best two player in the NBA. Dirk can never claim this.




Is what it is though. Both are all time greats, and neither are even comparable to Rodman. (Again I reiterate this, to just put to shame those who said so.)

haha, Rodman? I will assume you are kidding

FriedTofuz
06-14-2011, 02:49 PM
I think I'll place Dirk among the top 25.

He surely should be higher than just top 25? Hes already 20th all time in scoring, and the best shooting pf to ever play this game. Hes not the best pf to ever play the game, but not doubt, the best shooter all time at 7 FEET tall.

In order of power forwards all time..

Tim duncan
Karl malone
Kevin Garnett
Dirk nowitzski

drobe86
06-14-2011, 02:51 PM
I would be interested in reading why you think Dirk should be ranked above KG, and I mean that with all due respect man.

Well for starters, Dirk didn't ride the coattails of 2 other Hall of Famers to get his championship. KG could have stayed the course in Minny to win a ring, like Dirk did dallas. But he didn't he took the easy way out, and thus hurt his legacy by doing so. KG is awesome don't get me wrong, the best Defensive PF probably ever. But he never took his team to the next step. Dirk Did.... Get it now?

SteBO
06-14-2011, 02:51 PM
He surely should be higher than just top 25? Hes already 20th all time in scoring, and the best shooting pf to ever play this game. Hes not the best pf to ever play the game, but not doubt, the best shooter all time at 7 FEET tall.
That's fair too. He's in that range. Idk, I was stuck on where to place him since it's so hard to place great players nowadays. I'd agree with top 20 as well. He is by far the best 7 ft shooter of all time though. That's not even close to being debatable.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2011, 02:51 PM
However, I still maintain many here are underrating Dirk. I thought he was around #18-20 before the playoffs. I now think is around #15.

FriedTofuz
06-14-2011, 02:53 PM
i have.

he has moved from my top 70 list to my top 40 and is right now 1 inch ahead of Pau.

nothing that two more pau rings vs 0 more for dirk cant fix tough.

Dirk nowitski should be ranked alot higher than pau gasol. You should realize gasol won those rings because hes playing with an MVP in kobe bryant. Dirk on the other hand, is the MVP of the mavericks, and there isnt another all star caliber player on the mavs besides dirk. Hes pretty much carrying his team, as apposed to gasol, who has kobe. Dirk also has his ring and he should definatly be way ahead of pau gasol. How did dirk suddenly increase his placement all time and pass 35 people? who are these 35 people that he suddenly passed?

Hawkeye15
06-14-2011, 02:56 PM
Well for starters, Dirk didn't ride the coattails of 2 other Hall of Famers to get his championship. KG could have stayed the course in Minny to win a ring, like Dirk did dallas. But he didn't he took the easy way out, and thus hurt his legacy by doing so. KG is awesome don't get me wrong, the best Defensive PF probably ever. But he never took his team to the next step. Dirk Did.... Get it now?

KG would never have won a ring in Minnesota. McHale ran that team into the ground with bad decisions. Rode the coattails? He was the leader of that team bro.

Your reasoning is pure BS. KG was traded by the Wolves. He didn't leave via free agency. And that doesn't matter anyways. We are evaluating the player dude.

If that is your reasoning, we are done with this conversation, and I will talk with a more mature responder.

FriedTofuz
06-14-2011, 02:56 PM
I would be interested in reading why you think Dirk should be ranked above KG, and I mean that with all due respect man.

Jalen rose thinks dirk should be ranked higher than Kevin garnett. heres a link to a video, the very first 15 seconds is when he starts discussing dirks legacy . http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba/news/story?id=6661082

I dont agree with rose, but its just his opinion.

SteBO
06-14-2011, 03:03 PM
Well for starters, Dirk didn't ride the coattails of 2 other Hall of Famers to get his championship. KG could have stayed the course in Minny to win a ring, like Dirk did dallas. But he didn't he took the easy way out, and thus hurt his legacy by doing so. KG is awesome don't get me wrong, the best Defensive PF probably ever. But he never took his team to the next step. Dirk Did.... Get it now?
Wow.....First of all, you are aware that KG never asked out of Minnesota and was in fact surprised that he was traded when it happened, right?

Second of all, KG wasn't winning jack **** in Minnesota. He wasted 5-6 years their while the team was going nowhere fast. Rick bleeping Davis was his second best player for a few of those years. That line of reasoning is a joke to say the least, sorry to say.

Lastly, what in your right mind makes you think KG rode Ray and Pauls' coattails? He was the emotional leader of that team man. C'mon dude. You know better than that.

Hawkeye15
06-14-2011, 03:07 PM
Jalen rose thinks dirk should be ranked higher than Kevin garnett. heres a link to a video, the very first 15 seconds is when he starts discussing dirks legacy . http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba/news/story?id=6661082

I dont agree with rose, but its just his opinion.

Look when he said it. Remember the short term memory thing I was talking about?

Everyone is on a Mavs high right now.

Hellcrooner
06-14-2011, 03:16 PM
Dirk nowitski should be ranked alot higher than pau gasol. You should realize gasol won those rings because hes playing with an MVP in kobe bryant. Dirk on the other hand, is the MVP of the mavericks, and there isnt another all star caliber player on the mavs besides dirk. Hes pretty much carrying his team, as apposed to gasol, who has kobe. Dirk also has his ring and he should definatly be way ahead of pau gasol. How did dirk suddenly increase his placement all time and pass 35 people? who are these 35 people that he suddenly passed?

he has probably passed over the GIlmores. englishes, gervins of the world that tough being AMAZING didn twin a ring.

ddhulett
06-14-2011, 03:26 PM
i have.

he has moved from my top 70 list to my top 40 and is right now 1 inch ahead of Pau.

nothing that two more pau rings vs 0 more for dirk cant fix tough.

1 inch a head of Pau?

1st of all Dirk and Kobe are the STEAK Pau is the Potatoes!

Pau is 0-8 vs Dirk in the playoffs! Pau was never much until Kobe we all know that!

If you put Dirk at 40 now that must mean you have Pau at 41! You should probably let someone help you out with your list or just stop making one period!

MacFitz92
06-14-2011, 03:44 PM
haha, Rodman? I will assume you are kidding

Lol, I worded it wrong. I meant that for anyone to compare Rodman to Dirk or KG is just flat out wrong.

smith&wesson
06-14-2011, 03:49 PM
top 15 !! hands down like 6:30

Chronz
06-14-2011, 03:53 PM
i have.

he has moved from my top 70 list to my top 40 and is right now 1 inch ahead of Pau.

nothing that two more pau rings vs 0 more for dirk cant fix tough.
LOL I would KILL to see a list of the 69 players you had above Dirk before the title. Pau is a joke compared to PreChamp Dirk

Hellcrooner
06-14-2011, 03:56 PM
LOL I would KILL to see a list of the 69 players you had above Dirk before the title. Pau is a joke compared to PreChamp Dirk

yeah because memphis had a ****ing stupid mofo millionare wasting thousedn of million dollars every year to make his team competitive.:rolleyes: