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daleja424
06-07-2011, 08:21 AM
I was thinking today about the NBA elites and it made me wonder... why is there such a souble standard today in regaurds to certain superstars?

When Kobe was losing, everyone said he needed help.
When Rose lost, everyone said he needs help.
Now that Dirk is losing, everyone is saying he needs help.

So why then is it okay for some great players to ask for help... but not others (cough Lebron cough)?

I have read person after person knock Lebron's competitiveness and will to win on this site... yet those same people have no problem with Kobe, Rose, Dirk, etc getting the help they need?

Lebron tried to win on his own for 7 years... and he finally figured out that you cannot win in the NBA on your own...so he moved on... and you all hate hom for it.

Please do not turn this into a discussion of the decision. In terms of the the TV show... it was a bad idea. FINE. But that has nothing to do with the ongoing sentiment around the country that Lebron is less of a player for getting help... even though getting help precisely the advice you give every other superstar...

jockrider
06-07-2011, 08:31 AM
im glad he did lakers/celics are a little too stacked and it was boring seeing them in the finals year after year.

MagicHero3
06-07-2011, 08:34 AM
lebron homer thread

DodgerBulls
06-07-2011, 08:44 AM
I think what most means that they need help, could be a star, but not a superstar like Wade. I'll leave it to the others, I'll be out again. Just a suggestion though, stay away from NBA forum!

BALLER R
06-07-2011, 08:57 AM
I was thinking today about the NBA elites and it made me wonder... why is there such a souble standard today in regaurds to certain superstars?

When Kobe was losing, everyone said he needed help.
When Rose lost, everyone said he needs help.
Now that Dirk is losing, everyone is saying he needs help.

So why then is it okay for some great players to ask for help... but not others (cough Lebron cough)?

I have read person after person knock Lebron's competitiveness and will to win on this site... yet those same people have no problem with Kobe, Rose, Dirk, etc getting the help they need?

Lebron tried to win on his own for 7 years... and he finally figured out that you cannot win in the NBA on your own...so he moved on... and you all hate hom for it.

Please do not turn this into a discussion of the decision. In terms of the the TV show... it was a bad idea. FINE. But that has nothing to do with the ongoing sentiment around the country that Lebron is less of a player for getting help... even though getting help precisely the advice you give every other superstar...

I think dirk's situation is a lil bit different. I mean he didn't need help when he was beating the lakers and thunder. I think the reason why most people is saying it now it because he needs help against the HEAT. with the heat it isn't Dirk vs Lebron or Dirk vs Wade its Dirk vs Lebron/Wade. But with thunder it was more Dirk vs Durant and Dirk vs Kobe.

I hate lebron as much as the next guy but in all honesty he did need help but the problem a lot of people have is that he didn't need wade and bosh's help. Maybe bosh and someone else but he didn't need Wade. I am almost certain that if he had joined forces with just bosh and maybe a borderline all star or all star not another superstar his team would not be hated as much.

Delrayhc
06-07-2011, 08:59 AM
The fact of the matter is that every team that wins a championship has multiple stars whether they came together on their own , traded for ect. Lots of hypocrisy out there. Most players want to win and will do whatever it takes to put themselves in the best position to so.

Law25
06-07-2011, 09:01 AM
You already know the answer to this.

1) He left his team and chuck said it best "when your seen by many as the best player on the planet you bring players to you". His inability draw players to him showed how other players viewed him as an leader in my opinion.

2) He Joined two primed franchise players while also in his prime. It's been said before but ill say it again. Its like Jordan leaving Chicago in his prime before his rings to play with two other franchise players in ther prime players.

3)Again He Left. People werent to pist with Kobe becuase front office got Pau for him .They wasnt mad at K.G or Ray because they were traded, and they wouldnt be mad at LeBron if he was traded or some star or stars were traded to him, but LeBron in his prime left and the same treatment he's getting would be the same Rose would get, Durant would get, hell even Dwade would get if he left miami to go play with LeBron. If your an franchise player you dont just run away.

midwestmadman
06-07-2011, 09:07 AM
This is a very easy answer. Dirk, Rose, Kobe etc. didn't quit on thier teams during a pivotal game in the playoffs, then take a dump all over their hometown cities. Neither of those guys have left thier respective teams to go be second fiddle to another Superstar. They are the guys that LEAD thier teams and will them to victories. LeBron on the other hand has done all those things, and didn't have the common sense and decentcy as a human being to call the Cavs top brass to let them know he waqs leaving town. The Cavs coul dhave worked a better sign and trade to get back a player like Beasly etc plus the cap space. With what he's done I have no respect for him. He doesn't want to be great he just wants to have the glory without earning it. If the Heat win the championship not just this year but any year they shouldn't even be recognized as one of the great teams. They should be referred to as everything that is wrong with professional basketball in the current era.

Law25
06-07-2011, 09:10 AM
I think dirk's situation is a lil bit different. I mean he didn't need help when he was beating the lakers and thunder. I think the reason why most people is saying it now it because he needs help against the HEAT. with the heat it isn't Dirk vs Lebron or Dirk vs Wade its Dirk vs Lebron/Wade. But with thunder it was more Dirk vs Durant and Dirk vs Kobe.

I hate lebron as much as the next guy but in all honesty he did need help but the problem a lot of people have is that he didn't need wade and bosh's help. Maybe bosh and someone else but he didn't need Wade. I am almost certain that if he had joined forces with just bosh and maybe a borderline all star or all star not another superstar his team would not be hated as much.

This also.

Delrayhc
06-07-2011, 09:10 AM
You already know the answer to this.

1) He left his team and chuck said it best "when your seen by many as the best player on the planet you bring players to you". His inability draw players to him showed how other players viewed him as an leader in my opinion.
.

I think it has more to do with location / weather. The only place that would draw a player to come to in the northern Midwest would be Chicago.

Law25
06-07-2011, 09:13 AM
This is a very easy answer. Dirk, Rose, Kobe etc. didn't quit on thier teams during a pivotal game in the playoffs, then take a dump all over their hometown cities. Neither of those guys have left thier respective teams to go be second fiddle to another Superstar. They are the guys that LEAD thier teams and will them to victories. LeBron on the other hand has done all those things, and didn't have the common sense and decentcy as a human being to call the Cavs top brass to let them know he waqs leaving town. The Cavs coul dhave worked a better sign and trade to get back a player like Beasly etc plus the cap space. With what he's done I have no respect for him. He doesn't want to be great he just wants to have the glory without earning it. If the Heat win the championship not just this year but any year they shouldn't even be recognized as one of the great teams. They should be referred to as everything that is wrong with professional basketball in the current era.

This i agree with.

Law25
06-07-2011, 09:20 AM
I think it has more to do with location / weather. The only place that would draw a player to come to in the northern Midwest would be Chicago.

I just cant believe an player would pick this over an ring or being apart of the making of an dynasty and opportunity to become an legend.

Bulls_fan90
06-07-2011, 09:23 AM
Cough Lebron homer cough.

Delrayhc
06-07-2011, 09:26 AM
I just cant believe an player would pick this over an ring or being apart of the making of an dynasty and opportunity to become an legend.

If you recall Bosh , Boozer , Stat , Wade , Lebron , Johnson didn't sign with Cleavland this year.

Delrayhc
06-07-2011, 09:27 AM
Cough Lebron homer cough.

He may be but he has a valid argument.

YoungOne
06-07-2011, 09:27 AM
but they didnt leave their team to get help

Bulls_fan90
06-07-2011, 09:28 AM
Anyway this is another fail thread. None of those players you have listed have walked out on their teams, so why should people hate on them for something they haven't done?

And for the record, Lebron was hated before he left the Cavs.

YoungOne
06-07-2011, 09:30 AM
Anyway this is another fail thread. None of those players you have listed have walked out on their teams, so why should people hate on them for something they haven't done?

And for the record, Lebron was hated before he left the Cavs.

very true

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 09:30 AM
"Hooooommmmeeeeerrrrrr"

Whats up with these homers thread popping up every minute!

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 09:32 AM
Close thread!

PrettyBoyJ
06-07-2011, 09:32 AM
Its almost a year and we're still talking bout this lol.. As much as ppl hate lebron we just cant seem to stop talking bout him..

Delrayhc
06-07-2011, 09:33 AM
Anyway this is another fail thread. None of those players you have listed have walked out on their teams, so why should people hate on them for something they haven't done?

And for the record, Lebron was hated before he left the Cavs.

You can argue that he gave up in the Boston series before he left ,but he honored his contract therefore he didn't walk out on his team.

SteBO
06-07-2011, 09:34 AM
I don't care if people want to call LeBron a quitter. That's fine by me, though I think that's false. But LeBron made a career move to better his chances at winning a championship. That's hell of alot better than breaking his back carrying a weak supporting cast. Didn't Kobe ***** and moan about his cast in '07? Didn't he quit on his team in '06 vs. the Suns in the first round? All that worked, since Lakers management was gift wrapped Pau Gasol in '08 and ultimately went to the Finals that year. Credit the Lakers' front office. Cleveland management on the other hand, didn't do jack. They had a chance at Amare Stoudemire and didn't take it, and the so-called "great role players" in Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison, Shaq, Z, and Delonte West didn't do **** when it was needed. I don't care that they won 60+ games in regular season, you're judged in the playoffs, when it matters, and they didn't come through. All great players need help, and Dan Gilbert failed to do so. LeBron made the right choice, and anyone who debates that simply does not have a clue. Period.

midwestmadman
06-07-2011, 09:38 AM
I just cant believe an player would pick this over an ring or being apart of the making of an dynasty and opportunity to become an legend.

I agree with you that I can't believe a player would use that criteria as an end all be all, but I am sure it plays heavily into thier decisions. Even when the Pistons were an elite team always (a contender for 6 or 7 years straight) they couldn't win the battle between teams that were offering the same mid level money to players like Grant Hill, Jalen Rose, Michael Finley, etc. They all went to other teams for the same contracts. Granted Finley went to San Antoino the other elite team during that span, but Rose, and Hill went to play in Phoenix (warm weather) a team that has never been a serious contending threat (they've had good teams but couldn't seem to get it done in the playoffs when it matters). So that could truely be an issue. Geographics should be meaning less to a player when they make the money they do. After all most of these guys don't live in the cities they play for year round, and when the season is going on they travel so much why would it matter what city they play in, there are home what 3 nights in a row at best for most cases (during the season).

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 09:39 AM
I don't care if people want to call LeBron a quitter. That's fine by me, though I think that's false. But LeBron made a career move to better his chances at winning a championship. That's hell of alot better than breaking his back carrying a weak supporting cast. Didn't Kobe ***** and moan about his cast in '07? Didn't he quit on his team in '06 vs. the Suns in the first round? All that worked, since Lakers management was gift wrapped Pau Gasol in '08 and ultimately went to the Finals that year. Credit the Lakers' front office. Cleveland management on the other hand, didn't do jack. They had a chance at Amare Stoudemire and didn't take it, and the so-called "great role players" in Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison, Shaq, Z, and Delonte West didn't do **** when it was needed. I don't care that they won 60+ games in regular season, you're judged in the playoffs, when it matters, and they didn't come through. All great players need help, and Dan Gilbert failed to do so. LeBron made the right choice, and anyone who debates that simply does not have a clue. Period.

Wasn't the Cavs in the Finals a couple of years ago?

Didn't they win 60 games 2 straight seasons?

And at least with Kobe he STAYED...He knew he need one more superstar (Gasol) to go back to the finals and win it. Juts like the other poster said Jordan, Bird, Kobe etc wouldn't join a team. They would have to join their team.

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 09:40 AM
Anyway this is another fail thread. None of those players you have listed have walked out on their teams, so why should people hate on them for something they haven't done?

And for the record, Lebron was hated before he left the Cavs.

Love the Sig!

SteBO
06-07-2011, 09:43 AM
Wasn't the Cavs in the Finals a couple of years ago?

Didn't they win 60 games 2 straight seasons?

And at least with Kobe he STAYED...He knew he need one more superstar (Gasol) to go back to the finals and win it. Juts like the other poster said Jordan, Bird, Kobe etc wouldn't join a team. They would have to join their team.
Why do you think the Cavs were in the Finals? LeBron.

They did win 60 games 2 straight seasons, but when? The regular season, and in the playoffs, they were exposed for what they really were. A one man team.

That's not going to win you anything. If anything, those 60+ wins just shows you how good LeBron really is. Just because he went for a better opportunity to win, doesn't make him any less of a competitor than Kobe or Dirk. That logic is utter foolishness.

Bulls_fan90
06-07-2011, 09:43 AM
Love the Sig!

:cheers:

tredigs
06-07-2011, 09:46 AM
I was thinking today about the NBA elites and it made me wonder... why is there such a souble standard today in regaurds to certain superstars?

When Kobe was losing, everyone said he needed help.
When Rose lost, everyone said he needs help.
Now that Dirk is losing, everyone is saying he needs help.

So why then is it okay for some great players to ask for help... but not others (cough Lebron cough)?

I have read person after person knock Lebron's competitiveness and will to win on this site... yet those same people have no problem with Kobe, Rose, Dirk, etc getting the help they need?

Lebron tried to win on his own for 7 years... and he finally figured out that you cannot win in the NBA on your own...so he moved on... and you all hate hom for it.

Please do not turn this into a discussion of the decision. In terms of the the TV show... it was a bad idea. FINE. But that has nothing to do with the ongoing sentiment around the country that Lebron is less of a player for getting help... even though getting help precisely the advice you give every other superstar...

I think it's a combination of a few factors:

1: People think it's TOO MUCH help in joining another top 2-5 player.

2: The combination of it being a free agency decision by the player (not a trade) and it being he who left rather than the other way around (tho' as is quite obvious by now, no star was coming to Cleveland on their own terms. That much is obvious and is so often overlooked by fans using the, "but he left!" argument) lends for an easy avenue to call him out as making a move that other stars in recent memory wouldn't have.

3: Obviously, the way he left was an easy scapegoat for people to hate on him. Charity or not, it was a poor decision to air that on television unless he was coming back to Cleveland. Although people were so invested in him coming to their large market (the amount of photoshopped sigs on this site of Lebron in either a Bulls/Knicks/Heat jersey in the months leading up was insane. There was battles daily as to who would get him, and when it wasn't Chi or NY - they used everything they could as arsenal to hate on their hopeful leader).

4: Most NBA fans/writers are obsessed with scoring, not passing and defense. If Lebron focuses on the latter two while deferring the scoring load to a scorching hot D. Wade in an obvious mismatch during this Mavs series, it's only more fuel for the haters. They have a vision of what a superstar should be, and when Lebron doesn't fit that mold it confuses them and they DO NOT like it (the fact that the Heat are still winning the games is secondary)!

Now, if Lebron doesn't have a 30/10/10 game in every game of the post-season while hitting the game icer/winner and blocking the last shot, he will be torched by a certain segment of the media; it's just the way it is. Doesn't hurt that two of the three largest media markets were the teams that were bidding on him the highest.

In short, the contradiction is due to the fact that Lebron is considered better than everyone else, and if he's going to be in the conversation with the GOATS, we want him to fit the mold of the Superstars we know and love. They want Magic's vision, Jordan's scoring/clutchness and Pippen's perimeter lockdown D. Don't give it every night - especially in the Finals while Wade handles the bulk of the scoring load (?) - bring on the torches!

3:

daleja424
06-07-2011, 09:51 AM
I think dirk's situation is a lil bit different. I mean he didn't need help when he was beating the lakers and thunder. I think the reason why most people is saying it now it because he needs help against the HEAT. with the heat it isn't Dirk vs Lebron or Dirk vs Wade its Dirk vs Lebron/Wade. But with thunder it was more Dirk vs Durant and Dirk vs Kobe.

I hate lebron as much as the next guy but in all honesty he did need help but the problem a lot of people have is that he didn't need wade and bosh's help. Maybe bosh and someone else but he didn't need Wade. I am almost certain that if he had joined forces with just bosh and maybe a borderline all star or all star not another superstar his team would not be hated as much.
Lebron didn't really need help in the early rounds of the playoffs either. He got to the finals once and ECF multiple times with Cleveland but then couldn't get over the hump. Lebron and Wade have both gone on record saying that they made this move to get past Boston (another super team).


You already know the answer to this.

1) He left his team and chuck said it best "when your seen by many as the best player on the planet you bring players to you". His inability draw players to him showed how other players viewed him as an leader in my opinion.

2) He Joined two primed franchise players while also in his prime. It's been said before but ill say it again. Its like Jordan leaving Chicago in his prime before his rings to play with two other franchise players in ther prime players.

3)Again He Left. People werent to pist with Kobe becuase front office got Pau for him .They wasnt mad at K.G or Ray because they were traded, and they wouldnt be mad at LeBron if he was traded or some star or stars were traded to him, but LeBron in his prime left and the same treatment he's getting would be the same Rose would get, Durant would get, hell even Dwade would get if he left miami to go play with LeBron. If your an franchise player you dont just run away.
You cannot hold Lebron accountable for the failures of the Cavs front office. It is not Lebron's job to build a roster... that is what they pay a GM for... And it is pretty clear that no one wants to play in Ohio... What was he suppose to do? Go back to Cleveland with sucky teams for the rest if his career?


This is a very easy answer. Dirk, Rose, Kobe etc. didn't quit on thier teams during a pivotal game in the playoffs, then take a dump all over their hometown cities. Neither of those guys have left thier respective teams to go be second fiddle to another Superstar. They are the guys that LEAD thier teams and will them to victories. LeBron on the other hand has done all those things, and didn't have the common sense and decentcy as a human being to call the Cavs top brass to let them know he waqs leaving town. The Cavs coul dhave worked a better sign and trade to get back a player like Beasly etc plus the cap space. With what he's done I have no respect for him. He doesn't want to be great he just wants to have the glory without earning it. If the Heat win the championship not just this year but any year they shouldn't even be recognized as one of the great teams. They should be referred to as everything that is wrong with professional basketball in the current era.
-Lebron had 27 points, 10 assists, and 19 rebs in game 6 against the Celtics...he played 46 minutes... how is that quitting on his team exactly?
-You weren't calling Lebron a second fiddle just last week when he was dominating the Bulls and Celtics repeatedly and Wade was no where to be found.
-What the hell does Lebron's treatment of Cleveland have to do with his competitiveness/legacy?
-The Cavs did do a sign and trade... and got 4 draft picks. They could have had Beasley if they wanted him... they passed...
-To say that Lebron wouldn't deserve a title is just ignorant. You all had no problem ragging on the HEAT and saying they were good all year... but they pushed through it. They worked as hard as any team. Made sacrifices. They deserve every win they get.


Cough Lebron homer cough.
Maybe I am... so what? My point is still valid whether I am a HEAT fan or a Bulls fan...


Anyway this is another fail thread. None of those players you have listed have walked out on their teams, so why should people hate on them for something they haven't done?
And for the record, Lebron was hated before he left the Cavs.
Kobe was demanding a trade. Dirk has admitted he may have left if Lebron and Wade had spoken to him. These guys didn't leave their team only b/c they didn't have control in the matter...


but they didnt leave their team to get help
Again... so what? The ends were the same... Lebron just did it differently. Why do we hate on what is different? Just because it is? Because it hasn't been done THIS WAY before that makes it wrong?

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 09:56 AM
Why do you think the Cavs were in the Finals? LeBron.

They did win 60 games 2 straight seasons, but when? The regular season, and in the playoffs, they were exposed for what they really were. A one man team.

That's not going to win you anything. If anything, those 60+ wins just shows you how good LeBron really is. Just because he went for a better opportunity to win, doesn't make him any less of a competitor than Kobe or Dirk. That logic is utter foolishness.

Think about it?

If LeBron could win 60 games by himself, just imagine if you added another superstar on that team?

Personally I really don't care what Lebron did, But the city of Cleveland did. Just imagine if Dwayne Wade left the Heat to join forces with Lebron on the Cavs, I bet you you'll be one of the fans calling him a quitter and speaking on how he betrayed the city.

The Cavs were a good team, obviously if they won 60 games...And it does make him less of an competitor because at least with Kobe and Dirk they stood up too the challenge instead of running away from it...Those guys had a way better agrument for leaving their team then Lebron but they didn't!

daleja424
06-07-2011, 09:58 AM
I think it's a combination of a few factors:

1: People think it's TOO MUCH help in joining another top 2-5 player.

2: The combination of it being a free agency decision by the player (not a trade) and it being he who left rather than the other way around (tho' as is quite obvious by now, no star was coming to Cleveland on their own terms. That much is obvious and is so often overlooked by fans using the, "but he left!" argument) lends for an easy avenue to call him out as making a move that other stars in recent memory wouldn't have.

3: Obviously, the way he left was an easy scapegoat for people to hate on him. Charity or not, it was a poor decision to air that on television unless he was coming back to Cleveland. Although people were so invested in him coming to their large market (the amount of photoshopped sigs on this site of Lebron in either a Bulls/Knicks/Heat jersey in the months leading up was insane. There was battles daily as to who would get him, and when it wasn't Chi or NY - they used everything they could as arsenal to hate on their hopeful leader).

4: Most NBA fans/writers are obsessed with scoring, not passing and defense. If Lebron focuses on the latter two while deferring the scoring load to a scorching hot D. Wade in an obvious mismatch during this Mavs series, it's only more fuel for the haters. They have a vision of what a superstar should be, and when Lebron doesn't fit that mold it confuses them and they DO NOT like it (the fact that the Heat are still winning the games is secondary)!

Now, if Lebron doesn't have a 30/10/10 game in every game of the post-season while hitting the game icer/winner and blocking the last shot, he will be torched by a certain segment of the media; it's just the way it is. Doesn't hurt that two of the three largest media markets were the teams that were bidding on him the highest.

In short, the contradiction is due to the fact that Lebron is considered better than everyone else, and if he's going to be in the conversation with the GOATS, we want him to fit the mold of the Superstars we know and love. They want Magic's vision, Jordan's scoring/clutchness and Pippen's perimeter lockdown D. Don't give it every night - especially in the Finals while Wade handles the bulk of the scoring load (?) - bring on the torches!

3:

1. jealousy
2. ignorance
3. hatred
4. pop music

is PSD a sports site? or a hang out for pre-teen girls?

greenbaythunder
06-07-2011, 10:02 AM
K g might have been traded so u can say u cnt blame him but he had a say in where he was sent. Kobe may not have left but he sure as hell was close 2 leaving twice (one via being a F A and da other demandin a trade den denying it den asking for it again lik 2 hrs later lol) point is yea he didn't have 2 team up wit wade but if he stays in cle den he probably missing a few wires in his brain bc dat would have been a stupid move on his behalf

SteBO
06-07-2011, 10:03 AM
Think about it?

If LeBron could win 60 games by himself, just imagine if you added another superstar on that team?

Personally I really don't care what Lebron did, But the city of Cleveland did. Just imagine if Dwayne Wade left the Heat to join forces with Lebron on the Cavs, I bet you you'll be one of the fans calling him a quitter and speaking on how he betrayed the city.

The Cavs were a good team, obviously if they won 60 games...And it does make him less of an competitor because at least with Kobe and Dirk they stood up too the challenge instead of running away from it...Those guys had a way better agrument for leaving their team then Lebron but they didn't!
If Wade left the Heat, I'd be devastated. I'm not even going to lie about that, but I wouldn't be butt hurt like some of the posters on here. It'd be hard to blame Dwyane for leaving since the best we could do since '06 was a first round bounce out, and the trades we made were Ricky Davis and one-legged Jermaine O'Neal.

The Cavs were good, but not near good enough. Nobody, not even MJ, is going to win a title, with Mo Williams as your next best player. It's just not happening. BTW, the Cavs tried to acquire Bosh in FA, but Bosh didn't want to go there. That sealed the Cavs' fate. Again, they had a chance at Amare, and didn't go for it. That isn't LeBron's fault. It's on Cleveland management at that point. They failed to supply enough help. All LeBron wants to do is win, and in a team concept. He's sacrificing and that doesn't make him any less of a competitor. Sorry, but that's reality.

midwestmadman
06-07-2011, 10:04 AM
I don't care if people want to call LeBron a quitter. That's fine by me, though I think that's false.

-Well of course you don't care, he plays for your team now why would any of us expect you to care, you are reaping the benefits of this secret handshake bs. Also being that you are a Heat fan and probably was one before LeBron even came there, I would imagine there is a 10% chance or less that even saw the game in question that he flat out quit in against the C's.

But LeBron made a career move to better his chances at winning a championship. That's hell of alot better than breaking his back carrying a weak supporting cast.

As I said before that's fine if you want to be a second fiddle, people in the media and in these chat rooms talk legacy, and compare him to MJ, when they should just compare him to any other quitting ring chaser out there. Frankly there are guys that never wona ring that i would say rank ahead of LeBron now even if LeBron wons a ring*, or rings* or none. A few that come to mind are Reggie Miller, and Patrick Ewing. Those guys primarly played in thier primes for one team, and at least made it to the championship series and played well. They didn't complain about thier cast or rosters, they just played and won. Your legacy is determined not just be winning rings, but how and what you did to acheive it. In LeBrons case is legacy as a quitter and a guy who isn't competitive enough to win as a leader will not be shaken

Didn't Kobe ***** and moan about his cast in '07? Didn't he quit on his team in '06 vs. the Suns in the first round? All that worked, since Lakers management was gift wrapped Pau Gasol in '08 and ultimately went to the Finals that year. Credit the Lakers' front office. Cleveland management on the other hand, didn't do jack. They had a chance at Amare Stoudemire and didn't take it, and the so-called "great role players" in Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison, Shaq, Z, and Delonte West didn't do **** when it was needed.

Yes he did, and he took lots of flack for it by the LA fans and the media, but you are right credit the Lakers brass for getting Gasol and making some moves to improve that team. As for the Cavs, Cleveland managment had a deal for Amare' and when it was presented to LeBron for approval it was LeBron that said no, he didn;t want Amare, he wanted Jamison. Every move that was made in Cleveland went through LeBron plain and simple. If he didn't like his supporting cast that is on him as he for the most part hand picked his teammates. At one point he was hell bent on getting oft injured Michael Redd! The point is that organization would have done anything LeBron wanted to in order to keep him around and happy. LeBron is that high maintence girl you date that is a little out of your league, but you just hang on to her by buying her stuff, but no matter what they eventually they all go for the "bigger getter deal".

I don't care that they won 60+ games in regular season, you're judged in the playoffs, when it matters, and they didn't come through.

If he is so great, it is his job to motivate, and lead those players, he lacks those qualities as a player to motivate his team. It isn't up to the guy off the bench making NBA minimum wage to hit the game winning shot, it's up to LeBron, the franshise player to do so. He choked time after time, after time until he just quit. Don't blame your teammate blame yourself.

All great players need help, and Dan Gilbert failed to do so. LeBron made the right choice, and anyone who debates that simply does not have a clue. Period.

He had help, anyone who watched the Cavs knew he had help, he also had an owner who employed a staff to do anything LeBron wanted with regards to personel on that team from players to trainers. As far as the right choice goes, he made the right choice in your eyes to win now, sure, but in the eyes america his choice makes him look shallow, weak willed, uncompetitve, immature, gutless, cowardly, and most important a legacy full of doubt.

daleja424
06-07-2011, 10:05 AM
Think about it?

If LeBron could win 60 games by himself, just imagine if you added another superstar on that team?

Personally I really don't care what Lebron did, But the city of Cleveland did. Just imagine if Dwayne Wade left the Heat to join forces with Lebron on the Cavs, I bet you you'll be one of the fans calling him a quitter and speaking on how he betrayed the city.

The Cavs were a good team, obviously if they won 60 games...And it does make him less of an competitor because at least with Kobe and Dirk they stood up too the challenge instead of running away from it...Those guys had a way better agrument for leaving their team then Lebron but they didn't!

...but NO ONE wanted to go to Cleveland voluntarily...and the FO was unable to land a big time player via trade. Lebron waited for help for 7 years...and it never came.

I would be mad at Wade...and I do not blame Cavs fans for being bitter. It is the Bulls, Knicks, Lakers, etc HATERS that this is directed at...

How exactly did Kobe stand up to the challenge? He demanded a trade?

Dirk has been surrounded by good players for years. If Lebron had Dirk's team in Cleveland he would probably still be a Cav. How did Kobe and Dirk, who both have had better players around them their whole careers, have a way better arguement for leaving? Enlighten me...

ne3xchamps
06-07-2011, 10:07 AM
I was thinking today about the NBA elites and it made me wonder... why is there such a souble standard today in regaurds to certain superstars?

When Kobe was losing, everyone said he needed help.
When Rose lost, everyone said he needs help.
Now that Dirk is losing, everyone is saying he needs help.

So why then is it okay for some great players to ask for help... but not others (cough Lebron cough)?

I have read person after person knock Lebron's competitiveness and will to win on this site... yet those same people have no problem with Kobe, Rose, Dirk, etc getting the help they need?

Lebron tried to win on his own for 7 years... and he finally figured out that you cannot win in the NBA on your own...so he moved on... and you all hate hom for it.

Please do not turn this into a discussion of the decision. In terms of the the TV show... it was a bad idea. FINE. But that has nothing to do with the ongoing sentiment around the country that Lebron is less of a player for getting help... even though getting help precisely the advice you give every other superstar...

Because he and the other 2 dopes conspired on joining up a couple of years ago. IMO that's where all the **** hits the fan. If Cleveland went out and just signed wade and bosh, and there was no conspiring, it would be a different tone, IMO. Or even if they joined in Miami without prior conspiring.

daleja424
06-07-2011, 10:10 AM
So Lebron is not a competitor b/c you have an unfounded conspiracy theory? That makes sense... as long as you have a good reason :rolleyes:

34Dayz
06-07-2011, 10:10 AM
Prime Shaq >>>>>>>>>>> DWade, Bosh

Nuff Said.

SteBO
06-07-2011, 10:11 AM
He had help, anyone who watched the Cavs knew he had help, he also had an owner who employed a staff to do anything LeBron wanted with regards to personel on that team from players to trainers. As far as the right choice goes, he made the right choice in your eyes to win now, sure, but in the eyes america his choice makes him look shallow, weak willed, uncompetitve, immature, gutless, cowardly, and most important a legacy full of doubt.

I only think that LeBron didn't quit because he had a triple-double, and it's hard to believe that a "quitter" could put up that statline.

You make fair points. They're mostly valid. But the players around LeBron were who they were. They were simply not good enough to get past another superteam, the Boston Celtics. I just don't understand how he isn't competitive and hungry for a title, when he sacrificed money and individual accolades for championships. That's the one blemish in his career thus far. A ring. That's what he wants, and he's worked hard this year to try and get it in the midst of the NBA Finals, against a great team in Dallas. LeBron's team in Cleveland was not getting past the second round this year, had he stayed in CLE. Management did not have the cap flexibility.

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 10:13 AM
If Wade left the Heat, I'd be devastated. I'm not even going to lie about that, but I wouldn't be butt hurt like some of the posters on here. It'd be hard to blame Dwyane for leaving since the best we could do since '06 was a first round bounce out, and the trades we made were Ricky Davis and one-legged Jermaine O'Neal.

The Cavs were good, but not near good enough. Nobody, not even MJ, is going to win a title, with Mo Williams as your next best player. It's just not happening. BTW, the Cavs tried to acquire Bosh in FA, but Bosh didn't want to go there. That sealed the Cavs' fate. Again, they had a chance at Amare, and didn't go for it. That isn't LeBron's fault. It's on Cleveland management at that point. They failed to supply enough help. All LeBron wants to do is win, and in a team concept. He's sacrificing and that doesn't make him any less of a competitor. Sorry, but that's reality.

Cavs needed a second scoring option...thats the thing, they needed one more piece. Yes the front office made bad moves, but did we think they were bad in the beginning? Did you really think the Antwan Jamison trade was bad at first? It happens, how many times the Heat failed to give Wade a good supporting cast best the Big 3? Your not gonna always strike a deal everytime. Look how long it took Jordan to finally win an NBA Tilte

midwestmadman
06-07-2011, 10:13 AM
Because he and the other 2 dopes conspired on joining up a couple of years ago. IMO that's where all the **** hits the fan. If Cleveland went out and just signed wade and bosh, and there was no conspiring, it would be a different tone, IMO. Or even if they joined in Miami without prior conspiring.

Exactly that is what has most people angry about this team. It wasn't carefully built via the draft, it was peiced together by equal trade value, it was 3 guys who got together years ago and had a secret deal in place then made a mockery out of the whole Free Agency process which concluded with the biggest waste of time in sports history "The Decision".

ne3xchamps
06-07-2011, 10:16 AM
He had help, anyone who watched the Cavs knew he had help, he also had an owner who employed a staff to do anything LeBron wanted with regards to personel on that team from players to trainers. As far as the right choice goes, he made the right choice in your eyes to win now, sure, but in the eyes america his choice makes him look shallow, weak willed, uncompetitve, immature, gutless, cowardly, and most important a legacy full of doubt.

I wouldn't go that far. Now I hate lebron as much as anybody, but its his right to leave to another team if he so choses. Its the way they conspired about it, is what I have a huge problem with.

So basically with this post you're saying that anybody who leaves their team via free agency, doesn't demand a trade, is gutless, cowardly blah blah blah? Come on dude, that doesn't make a bit of sense at all.

SteBO
06-07-2011, 10:17 AM
Cavs needed a second scoring option...thats the thing, they needed one more piece. Yes the front office made bad moves, but did we think they were bad in the beginning? Did you really think the Antwan Jamison trade was bad at first? It happens, how many times the Heat failed to give Wade a good supporting cast best the Big 3? Your not gonna always strike a deal everytime. Look how long it took Jordan to finally win an NBA Tilte
Very true, but it's clear that LeBron didn't want to sign a 6-year deal worth max money, to end up being 31-years old with no rings. He didn't want to play with fire like that, because who knows what could happen later down the line. I wouldn't mind it had LeBron stayed, but he'd be taking a big risk. Kobe wasn't taking much of one, because Lakers management is reliable. I can't say the same about CLE.

daleja424
06-07-2011, 10:17 AM
Cavs needed a second scoring option...thats the thing, they needed one more piece. Yes the front office made bad moves, but did we think they were bad in the beginning? Did you really think the Antwan Jamison trade was bad at first? It happens, how many times the Heat failed to give Wade a good supporting cast best the Big 3? Your not gonna always strike a deal everytime. Look how long it took Jordan to finally win an NBA Tilte

SEVEN YEARS. They had SEVEN years to get it right... and they didn't.

The HEAT FO had those same seven years and they won a championship...

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 10:18 AM
...but NO ONE wanted to go to Cleveland voluntarily...and the FO was unable to land a big time player via trade. Lebron waited for help for 7 years...and it never came.

I would be mad at Wade...and I do not blame Cavs fans for being bitter. It is the Bulls, Knicks, Lakers, etc HATERS that this is directed at...

How exactly did Kobe stand up to the challenge? He demanded a trade?

Dirk has been surrounded by good players for years. If Lebron had Dirk's team in Cleveland he would probably still be a Cav. How did Kobe and Dirk, who both have had better players around them their whole careers, have a way better arguement for leaving? Enlighten me...

How many Finals appearences did Kobe appear in when Shaq left and before Gasol came?

Matter fact did those guys win 60 games in 2 straight seasons (Kobe before Gasol came)?

The funny thing is LeBron did more with nothing then those 2 did with something...So if thats your excuse come up with a better one....Enlighten Me...

daleja424
06-07-2011, 10:19 AM
Very true, but it's clear that LeBron didn't want to sign a 6-year deal worth max money, to end up being 31-years old with no rings. He didn't want to play with fire like that, because who knows what could happen later down the line. I wouldn't mind it had LeBron stayed, but he'd be taking a big risk. Kobe wasn't taking much of one, because Lakers management is reliable. I can't say the same about CLE.

When Lebron resigned with them the first time be picked this 3 year contract specifically b/c it was the Cavs chance to prove they could give him a great team. They were unable to do that... THEY failed the test... He left.

He gave Cleveland 3 years warning that he might leave... and they didn't respond well.

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 10:21 AM
SEVEN YEARS. They had SEVEN years to get it right... and they didn't.

The HEAT FO had those same seven years and they won a championship...

Stop being a Homer and come up with a better agruement.

At least with SteBo he's making valid points...unlike yourself!

SteBO
06-07-2011, 10:22 AM
When Lebron resigned with them the first time be picked this 3 year contract specifically b/c it was the Cavs chance to prove they could give him a great team. They were unable to do that... THEY failed the test... He left.

He gave Cleveland 3 years warning that he might leave... and they didn't respond well.
Exactly my point. I think Wade signed his after they won the title, but he had more faith in Pat than he was letting on. Don't get we wrong, the Cavs are a good team that had a chance, but the role players just weren't playoff ready or reliable.

daleja424
06-07-2011, 10:23 AM
How many Finals appearences did Kobe appear in when Shaq left and before Gasol came?

Matter fact did those guys win 60 games in 2 straight seasons (Kobe before Gasol came)?

The funny thing is LeBron did more with nothing then those 2 did with something...So if thats your excuse come up with a better one....Enlighten Me...

Kobe had to endure 3 years without help and he was demanding a trade. Lebron gave his all for SEVEN without help.

You really want to compare Kobe and Lebron here?

daleja424
06-07-2011, 10:24 AM
Stop being a Homer and come up with a better agruement.

At least with SteBo he's making valid points...unlike yourself!

how is that a bad argument? You said that the HEAT FO failed to put talent around wade just like Cleveland did Lebron... and that is blatently false.

Pat Riley has proven time after time he knows how to build a champion...

mikealike305
06-07-2011, 10:25 AM
Stop being a Homer and come up with a better agruement.

At least with SteBo he's making valid points...unlike yourself!

i think that is a valid point.

the cavs had 7 years. i mean if they couldnt get it done those 1st 7 years, what was going to make lebron feel they could the following 7 years?

ne3xchamps
06-07-2011, 10:26 AM
So Lebron is not a competitor b/c you have an unfounded conspiracy theory? That makes sense... as long as you have a good reason :rolleyes:

I never said he wasn't a competitor, stop putting words in my mouth and actually read my post. And I can't remember where I heard that those 3 talked about joining the heat, but I did hear it.

Most of you heat fans piss me off. Putting words in people's mouth to make yourself feel better.

midwestmadman
06-07-2011, 10:26 AM
I only think that LeBron didn't quit because he had a triple-double, and it's hard to believe that a "quitter" could put up that statline.

You make fair points. They're mostly valid. But the players around LeBron were who they were. They were simply not good enough to get past another superteam, the Boston Celtics. I just don't understand how he isn't competitive and hungry for a title, when he sacrificed money and individual accolades for championships. That's the one blemish in his career thus far. A ring. That's what he wants, and he's worked hard this year to try and get it in the midst of the NBA Finals, against a great team in Dallas. LeBron's team in Cleveland was not getting past the second round this year, had he stayed in CLE. Management did not have the cap flexibility.

I'll give ya the fact that they weren't good enough that year, frankly I thought they had more depth the year before, and yes stat wise LBJ had a great game going, but in the fourth quarter when he typically takes over the game, he never took charge, that is where I have more of a problem, win or lose you have to go out swinging, and I didn't feel like LeBron tried to even seize that moment. Had he done it then and won, and still left Cleveland, I for one would give him more credit for having a killer instinct and give him more credit towards legacy. From what I saw he didn't make that attempt. He just looked beaten, confused, and frustrated. Those emotions happend to Kobe, MJ, and other greats and they find ways to respond before the game is done, LeBron pouted and failed his team and city and himself in the process.

On the issue of sacrificing money, I am so sick of hearing that excuss. LeBron is getting what like 15.6M a season still, it's not like that pay cut he took means he can't go out to Bennigans on Friday night now, or see a movie with the wife and wonder what excuse to give the sitter for not have $20 for her that night. 15.6M is a truck load of money that most of us will never make in a lifetime that LeBron is making this year alone. He already had the individual accolades I'll give him his credit there MVP, a Finals apperance now 2*, all star bids etc. but to me his image is tarnished, and I feel like anything he does now to try to improve his image is insincere. I'm not saying I am right, I am saying that how I feel about him now, maybe down the road it will change, but he just seems like a egotistical ***-pony when ever I see him on the court, or giving interviews etc.

Rivera
06-07-2011, 10:26 AM
why the contradiction? why does it matter? does it really bother you daleja that people hate lebron and the heat and dont want to give them any credit or love??

it isnt gonna change anytime soon and just let the haters hate

Phenomenonsense
06-07-2011, 10:27 AM
I was thinking today about the NBA elites and it made me wonder... why is there such a souble standard today in regaurds to certain superstars?

When Kobe was losing, everyone said he needed help.
When Rose lost, everyone said he needs help.
Now that Dirk is losing, everyone is saying he needs help.

So why then is it okay for some great players to ask for help... but not others (cough Lebron cough)?

I have read person after person knock Lebron's competitiveness and will to win on this site... yet those same people have no problem with Kobe, Rose, Dirk, etc getting the help they need?

Lebron tried to win on his own for 7 years... and he finally figured out that you cannot win in the NBA on your own...so he moved on... and you all hate hom for it.

Please do not turn this into a discussion of the decision. In terms of the the TV show... it was a bad idea. FINE. But that has nothing to do with the ongoing sentiment around the country that Lebron is less of a player for getting help... even though getting help precisely the advice you give every other superstar...

Dirk has actually won a game in the finals without help before. That's the line. Rose doesn't need help, he needs to play better next time. 45 pick and roll plays in a row where they double team him won't win ****.

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 10:27 AM
how is that a bad argument? You said that the HEAT FO failed to put talent around wade just like Cleveland did Lebron... and that is blatently false.

Really?

Because besides that one year, the Heat were one and done everytime they made the playoffs...At one point they won 15 Games...yes 15 games with Wade...So like I said come up with a better argument.

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 10:31 AM
i think that is a valid point.

the cavs had 7 years. i mean if they couldnt get it done those 1st 7 years, what was going to make lebron feel they could the following 7 years?

Look at the 7 years...Besides the Heat winning the title, they have the same amount of finals appearances, and the Heat were one and done everytime they made the playoffs, the Cavs were winning playoffs series...Heat won 15 games one seaon, Cavs won 60 games 2 straight seasons.

Heater4life
06-07-2011, 10:32 AM
Why another Lebron thread????? Who cares!!!!! theres a double standard, accept it for what it is.

justinnum1
06-07-2011, 10:35 AM
:yawn:

daleja424
06-07-2011, 10:37 AM
Really?

Because besides that one year, the Heat were one and done everytime they made the playoffs...At one point they won 15 Games...yes 15 games with Wade...So like I said come up with a better argument.

let me give you a history lesson...

2003-2004 HEAT draft Wade and make it to second round (not one and done)
2004-2005 HEAT trade for Shaq and others... make it ECF (not one and done)
2005-2006 HEAT make more trades... win Finals (not one and done)
2006-2007 Shaq declines, Wade gets hurt... HEAT lose in first round
2007-2008 Wade is hurt all year., trade for Marion.. HEAT win 15 games
2008-2009 HEAT rebuild, draft Beasley, trade for JO... lose game 7 vs Atlanta
2009-2010 HEAT lose to Celtics... paves way for super team

mjm07
06-07-2011, 10:37 AM
Anyway this is another fail thread. None of those players you have listed have walked out on their teams, so why should people hate on them for something they haven't done?

And for the record, Lebron was hated before he left the Cavs.

Do you really think KG didn't ask to leave Minnesota?
Didn't Kobe ask to be traded unless he gets help?
Isnt' that why McGrady and Hill signed with Orlando?

Wow funny how pple forget these minor details.

RapToronto95
06-07-2011, 10:37 AM
Dirk has actually won a game in the finals without help before. That's the line. Rose doesn't need help, he needs to play better next time. 45 pick and roll plays in a row where they double team him won't win ****.

Which is why he needs help...

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 10:43 AM
let me give you a history lesson...

2003-2004 HEAT draft Wade and make it to second round (not one and done)
2004-2005 HEAT trade for Shaq and others... make it ECF (not one and done)
2005-2006 HEAT make more trades... win Finals (not one and done)
2006-2007 Shaq declines, Wade gets hurt... HEAT lose in first round
2007-2008 Wade is hurt all year., trade for Marion.. HEAT win 15 games
2008-2009 HEAT rebuild, draft Beasley, trade for JO... lose game 7 vs Atlanta
2009-2010 HEAT lose to Celtics... paves way for super team

So basically Failures...At the end of the day the Cavs had more regular season wins then the Heat, had more playoff wins then the Heat...Only difference Heat won a title!

daleja424
06-07-2011, 10:48 AM
lol... love how you make a bold statement like, "HEAT were one and done every year except their finals year," I prove you wrong, and you don't even aknowldge your mistake.

Only two years in Wade's career has the HEAT failed to put a team around him (2008-2009 and 2009-2010 when they were rebuilding). The other two "failed" years were dues to Wade injuries...so he can't blame the FO for that.

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 10:56 AM
lol... love how you make a bold statement like, "HEAT were one and done every year except their finals year," I prove you wrong, and you don't even aknowldge your mistake.

Only two years in Wade's career has the HEAT failed to put a team around him (2008-2009 and 2009-2010 when they were rebuilding). The other two "failed" years were dues to Wade injuries...so he can't blame the FO for that.

I love how your still clueless on the whole point of the agrument lol....

Let me put in capitol letters for you:

BESIDES WINNING A TITLE, WHATEVER THE HEAT DID, THE CAVS DID PLUS MORE. And the sad thing is, Heat had more good players then the Cavs, and the Cavs still managed to win more games (In regular season and Playoffs).

SteBO
06-07-2011, 11:02 AM
I love how your still clueless on the whole point of the agrument lol....

Let me put in capitol letters for you:

BESIDES WINNING A TITLE, WHATEVER THE HEAT DID, THE CAVS DID PLUS MORE. And the sad thing is, Heat had more good players then the Cavs, and the Cavs still managed to win more games (In regular season and Playoffs).

:speechless:

Woah let's slow down!!!! Cleveland had....

Mo Williams
Anderson Varajeo
Antawn Jamison
Delonte West

just to name a few.... All these guys are better than the Heat's next best players outside Wade after '06, before this year, who were Michael Beasley and Jermaine O'Neal.

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 11:09 AM
:speechless:

Woah let's slow down!!!! Cleveland had....

Mo Williams
Anderson Varajeo
Antawn Jamison
Delonte West

just to name a few.... All these guys are better than the Heat's next best players outside Wade after '06, before this year, who were Michael Beasley and Jermaine O'Neal.

He had Antwan Jamison for half a season, the year James left. Shawn Marion at that time was better then Delonte West, Haslen imo is better then Anderson Varajeo plus you still had Shaq, the only exception was Jermaine O'Neal, but he was hurt though!

SteBO
06-07-2011, 11:12 AM
^I forgot about Marion, but he didn't fit our system well at all. I would have been cool to have him now though. I didn't factor Shaq in because he declined after '06.

2-15's4-22's
06-07-2011, 11:15 AM
I love how your still clueless on the whole point of the agrument lol....

Let me put in capitol letters for you:

BESIDES WINNING A TITLE, WHATEVER THE HEAT DID, THE CAVS DID PLUS MORE. And the sad thing is, Heat had more good players then the Cavs, and the Cavs still managed to win more games (In regular season and Playoffs).

Besides winning a title????? thats what they play for not to see who wins
60 +, how do you do more than win a NBA championship?

godolphins
06-07-2011, 11:15 AM
You already know the answer to this.

1) He left his team and chuck said it best "when your seen by many as the best player on the planet you bring players to you". His inability draw players to him showed how other players viewed him as an leader in my opinion.

2) He Joined two primed franchise players while also in his prime. It's been said before but ill say it again. Its like Jordan leaving Chicago in his prime before his rings to play with two other franchise players in ther prime players.

3)Again He Left. People werent to pist with Kobe becuase front office got Pau for him .They wasnt mad at K.G or Ray because they were traded, and they wouldnt be mad at LeBron if he was traded or some star or stars were traded to him, but LeBron in his prime left and the same treatment he's getting would be the same Rose would get, Durant would get, hell even Dwade would get if he left miami to go play with LeBron. If your an franchise player you dont just run away.
Who the heck wants to go Cleveland? Bosh said he didn't want to go, Wade said: Lebron is one of my best friends but there's no way he would be able to convince me to go to Cleveland, Boozer didn't want to stay in Cleveland, no star player would want to go to Cleveland.

2-15's4-22's
06-07-2011, 11:16 AM
He had Antwan Jamison for half a season, the year James left. Shawn Marion at that time was better then Delonte West, Haslen imo is better then Anderson Varajeo plus you still had Shaq, the only exception was Jermaine O'Neal, but he was hurt though!

i looked at both rosters to try and prove you wrong but uuuuuuum that clev team looks alot uglier on paper :o

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 11:18 AM
^I forgot about Marion, but he didn't fit our system well at all. I would have been cool to have him now though. I didn't factor Shaq in because he declined after '06.

Yeah he did, but he was still better then Varajeo and Hickson....And remember James was playing with guys like Bubby Gibson, Iran Newble (Who? lmao) Drew Gooden. Larry Hughes, Damon Jones, Scott Pollard etc...And he went to the Finals with those plays...

Underrated Wade
06-07-2011, 11:19 AM
Stupid hate going on with lebron. Today i saw an artice criticizing lebron for not doing offensive stuff in the fourth quarter and going to wade.. Wth that is like saying wade cant do anything in clutch moments. People need to stfu abt hoe lebron dont do this lebron dont do that. Whats wrong with going to wade amyways? Hes just as good as
Lebron. Why do ppl hate him after ehe went to miami

ne3xchamps
06-07-2011, 11:20 AM
Do you really think KG didn't ask to leave Minnesota?
Didn't Kobe ask to be traded unless he gets help?
Isnt' that why McGrady and Hill signed with Orlando?

Wow funny how pple forget these minor details.

KG didn't ask out of minnesota, has been reported multiple times and KG said that himself. Way to go on the fail on that statement.

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 11:20 AM
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.basketball-reference.com%2Fteams%2FCLE%2F2007.html&ei=vkDuTZyHBsucgQfVneiUDw&usg=AFQjCNFFqpCQUgA0ovyOOPFXl3ALKyBPlQ

Look at the roster James went to the finals with:facepalm:

Look at it, I don't respect the fact he wanted to join another team, but after looking at his past rosters I really don't blame him lol

Chacarron
06-07-2011, 11:21 AM
Lebron didn't get help. He was the help.

Heater4life
06-07-2011, 11:22 AM
So basically Failures...At the end of the day the Cavs had more regular season wins then the Heat, had more playoff wins then the Heat...Only difference Heat won a title!

Its not even comparable, from 07 on the Heat were thinking about future moves. Hence why they traded Shaq for Marion and Banks, then later flipped them both for a +20M 2010 expiring deal in J.Oneal. When James Jones was signed in 2008 he was signed with a team option for 2010, no other f.a was signed so that it would not interfere with there plan for rebuilding.

Hence, while the Cavs were trying to compete the Heat were mending their boat with a patch work of players. Not the same situation.

SteBO
06-07-2011, 11:22 AM
KG didn't ask out of minnesota, has been reported multiple times and KG said that himself. Way to go on the fail on that statement.

This.
OMG, for the last time, KG DID NOT ASK OUT OF MINNESOTA!! The Wolves traded him because they knew he didn't want any part of a rebuilding stage. He was actually stunned he got traded.

ne3xchamps
06-07-2011, 11:22 AM
Stupid hate going on with lebron. Today i saw an artice criticizing lebron for not doing offensive stuff in the fourth quarter and going to wade.. Wth that is like saying wade cant do anything in clutch moments. People need to stfu abt hoe lebron dont do this lebron dont do that. Whats wrong with going to wade amyways? Hes just as good as
Lebron. Why do ppl hate him after ehe went to miami

:laugh2: Now that's comical. Nobody is as good as lebron.

justinnum1
06-07-2011, 11:26 AM
:laugh2: Now that's comical. Nobody is as good as lebron.

:facepalm: Wade is just as good.

Slimsim
06-07-2011, 11:29 AM
I was thinking today about the NBA elites and it made me wonder... why is there such a souble standard today in regaurds to certain superstars?

When Kobe was losing, everyone said he needed help.
When Rose lost, everyone said he needs help.
Now that Dirk is losing, everyone is saying he needs help.

So why then is it okay for some great players to ask for help... but not others (cough Lebron cough)?

I have read person after person knock Lebron's competitiveness and will to win on this site... yet those same people have no problem with Kobe, Rose, Dirk, etc getting the help they need?

Lebron tried to win on his own for 7 years... and he finally figured out that you cannot win in the NBA on your own...so he moved on... and you all hate hom for it.

Please do not turn this into a discussion of the decision. In terms of the the TV show... it was a bad idea. FINE. But that has nothing to do with the ongoing sentiment around the country that Lebron is less of a player for getting help... even though getting help precisely the advice you give every other superstar...

I agree but when your the best player in the league your going to get that type of hate.

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 11:30 AM
:laugh2: Now that's comical. Nobody is as good as lebron.


:facepalm:

MiamiWadeCounty
06-07-2011, 11:31 AM
:laugh2: Now that's comical. Nobody is as good as lebron.

I agree Lebron is better than Wade, but it certainly isn't laughable to compare them as they have very similar games and at worst they are the 1st and 4th best players in the league.

Heater4life
06-07-2011, 11:31 AM
Yeah he did, but he was still better then Varajeo and Hickson....And remember James was playing with guys like Bubby Gibson, Iran Newble (Who? lmao) Drew Gooden. Larry Hughes, Damon Jones, Scott Pollard etc...And he went to the Finals with those plays...

Exactly. Thats why he left, all though the Heat had the same amount of finals appearances in the same span of years. Riley always managed to put a solid team together.

Odom, Butler, Grant for Shaq
Eddie Jones, Rasual Butler, Qyntel Woods- Antoine Walker, James Posey, Jason Williams
Shaq (declining bad) for Marion and Banks
Marion and Banks for J.Oneal (big expiring) and a 1st

Lebron didnt have that movement of talent in cleveland.

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 11:31 AM
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.basketball-reference.com%2Fteams%2FCLE%2F2007.html&ei=vkDuTZyHBsucgQfVneiUDw&usg=AFQjCNFFqpCQUgA0ovyOOPFXl3ALKyBPlQ

Look at the roster James went to the finals with:facepalm:

Look at it, I don't respect the fact he wanted to join another team, but after looking at his past rosters I really don't blame him lol

whitemamba33
06-07-2011, 11:33 AM
I'm sorry, but isn't it obvious that there is a big difference between requesting help for your current team and leaving to be the help on another team?

LeBron said he was going to bring a championship to Cleveland. So no matter what kind of other garbage you throw at me: "look at his roster!", "Cleveland is a weak market!", etc, it was still a failure and I still lost respect for him as a competitor after he threw in the towel.

There is no double standard. Dirk remains committed to the Mavs, Rose remains committed to the Bulls, Kobe has done enough with the Lakers that he can go to another other team if he wanted to and still say that he "got the job done", but he's committed to the Lakers as well. LeBron in Cleveland? not so much.

mikealike305
06-07-2011, 11:33 AM
I love how your still clueless on the whole point of the agrument lol....

Let me put in capitol letters for you:

BESIDES WINNING A TITLE, WHATEVER THE HEAT DID, THE CAVS DID PLUS MORE. And the sad thing is, Heat had more good players then the Cavs, and the Cavs still managed to win more games (In regular season and Playoffs).

that is not true, cavs always had a better team than miami did.

also, key words in what u said "WINNING A TITLE"
we won a title. so i think at the end of the day that cancels out, and means more, than all those wins the cavs had...

so i dont understand the argument taking place here

daleja424
06-07-2011, 11:33 AM
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.basketball-reference.com%2Fteams%2FCLE%2F2007.html&ei=vkDuTZyHBsucgQfVneiUDw&usg=AFQjCNFFqpCQUgA0ovyOOPFXl3ALKyBPlQ

Look at the roster James went to the finals with:facepalm:

Look at it, I don't respect the fact he wanted to join another team, but after looking at his past rosters I really don't blame him lol

Thats the point man! Lebron never got help. He did a lot with a little...but he never had much help and he decided to leave. Are you just now realizing how badly Lebron's teams sucked?

Jay16
06-07-2011, 11:36 AM
What I don't get is....you have 3 superstars who decided to give up a lot of money, a lot of stats , and a lot of prestige and go to one place to put the RING before the player.... It's what we would like our superstars to do. If you had the chance to play with 2 of your closest friends in A GREAT CITY and compete for a ring year in and year out, who would'nt do that. Yet they get killed for it.

I can guarantee you 100% of the posters in this forum would take these 3 on thier team in a heart beat. But they are here. For that reason we get hit with the moniker (arrogant and obnoxious) HEAT fans. I've come to the realization that we would be hated regardless of what happens.....I say so be it.

Heater4life
06-07-2011, 11:36 AM
I agree Lebron is better than Wade, but it certainly isn't laughable to compare them as they have very similar games and at worst they are the 1st and 4th best players in the league.

Wade is very underated. Taking it to the hole, Wade is second to none. He's quicker, more fluid and slices through the D. Ball handling, D Wade. Shooting there both very streaky. Speed, neck and neck.

Lebron is a beast, but its not that far off, there both right there its just a matter of preference imo.

daleja424
06-07-2011, 11:36 AM
I'm sorry, but isn't it obvious that there is a big difference between requesting help for your current team and leaving to be the help on another team?

LeBron said he was going to bring a championship to Cleveland. So no matter what kind of other garbage you throw at me: "look at his roster!", "Cleveland is a weak market!", etc, it was still a failure and I still lost respect for him as a competitor after he threw in the towel.

There is no double standard. Dirk remains committed to the Mavs, Rose remains committed to the Bulls, Kobe has done enough with the Lakers that he can go to another other team if he wanted to and still say that he "got the job done", but he's committed to the Lakers as well. LeBron in Cleveland? not so much.

You are so wrong it isn't even funny. Being a competitor is not about winning or losing... it is about how you play the game. He never reached his goal in Cleveland... boo hoo... but he tried for 7 years. He COMPETED for 7 years. He decided he need more help so he came to Miami and he has COMPETED on both ends of the corut all year. Anyone who questions the competitiveness of Lebron James or Dwyane Wade has a very very short memory.

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 11:38 AM
that is not true, cavs always had a better team than miami did.

also, key words in what u said "WINNING A TITLE"
we won a title. so i think at the end of the day that cancels out, and means more, than all those wins the cavs had...

so i dont understand the argument taking place here

No they did not, look at their rosters again...Besides Gibson, Mo williams, Varajeo, Jamison and West the rest aren't even the league anymore.

Heater4life
06-07-2011, 11:39 AM
What I don't get is....you have 3 superstars who decided to give up a lot of money, a lot of stats , and a lot of prestige and go to one place to put the RING before the player.... It's what we would like our superstars to do. If you had the chance to play with 2 of your closest friends in A GREAT CITY and compete for a ring year in and year out, who would'nt do that. Yet they get killed for it.

I can guarantee you 100% of the posters in this forum would take these 3 on thier team in a heart beat. But they are here. For that reason we get hit with the moniker (arrogant and obnoxious) HEAT fans. I've come to the realization that we would be hated regardless of what happens.....I say so be it.

Everyone would love it for themselves and their team. But against them, you'd be a fool to think anyone wants it. Would you want to face Rose, LBJ, and Bosh?

I pictured it and I shat my pants. I think that applies for everyone with our big three and the possibility that their team will face that for at least 5+ years.

Jay16
06-07-2011, 11:41 AM
What people don't understand is that this pedestal that they put Jordan in would be crumbs right now if the Blazers had taken him like they were supposed to. Then with as crappy a front office as the blazers had back then Jordan would have been out of there in the first 3 years. People put him on the pedestal but the truth is Jordan was given a competative team year in and year out if not he would have been elsewhere. People crack on LeBron for leaving when no one in their right mind would have stayed. Dirk is staying .......not getting a ring but hey "He is Loyal". Which is worst??

mikealike305
06-07-2011, 11:43 AM
No they did not, look at their rosters again...Besides Gibson, Mo williams, Varajeo, Jamison and West the rest aren't even the league anymore.

miami had a better roster for maybe a year or 2, but it wasnt better by much.

alright, so they both had pretty terrible rosters and clearly couldnt do much with what they had to work with.

whats the point of this again?

Heater4life
06-07-2011, 11:45 AM
You are so wrong it isn't even funny. Being a competitor is not about winning or losing... it is about how you play the game. He never reached his goal in Cleveland... boo hoo... but he tried for 7 years. He COMPETED for 7 years. He decided he need more help so he came to Miami and he has COMPETED on both ends of the corut all year. Anyone who questions the competitiveness of Lebron James or Dwyane Wade has a very very short memory.

Karl Malone and John Stockton arent competitors?

They failed, with a hell of a squad at that. Theres nothing worse than seeing good players rot away on teams that dont cut it, then being forced to rebuild. (ala wade after 06)

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 11:48 AM
miami had a better roster for maybe a year or 2, but it wasnt better by much.

alright, so they both had pretty terrible rosters and clearly couldnt do much with what they had to work with.

whats the point of this again?

Read the other posts then figure it out!

Heater4life
06-07-2011, 11:48 AM
What people don't understand is that this pedestal that they put Jordan in would be crumbs right now if the Blazers had taken him like they were supposed to. Then with as crappy a front office as the blazers had back then Jordan would have been out of there in the first 3 years. People put him on the pedestal but the truth is Jordan was given a competative team year in and year out if not he would have been elsewhere. People crack on LeBron for leaving when no one in their right mind would have stayed. Dirk is staying .......not getting a ring but hey "He is Loyal". Which is worst??

dont spit up just yet, it might land on your face.

Heater4life
06-07-2011, 11:53 AM
I think the reason theres a contradiction is because we've all wanted to put the leagues next best thing into a Jordan cookie-cuter image.

We want the next Michael, we want them to do it like Michael, but the fact is Michael Jordan will never be LBJ, Kobe, or D Wade. Nor will they be Michael Jordan. They have facets in their game which make them all unique and better than Mike in certain aspects.

We were never prepared for a post Jordan league.

mikealike305
06-07-2011, 11:57 AM
Read the other posts then figure it out!

it looks like u swaped sides in your agument. u said dirk and other stars had more reason to leave than lebron cuz lebron had a good team that won 60+ games.....


now you are saying lebron had nothing to work with and his rosters sucked

Jay16
06-07-2011, 12:02 PM
dont spit up just yet, it might land on your face.

I regret it as soon as I hit submit. LOL.
I know it's not over.

Raph12
06-07-2011, 12:20 PM
I wouldn't have cared if Lebron went to NYC to play with Stat or to Chitown to play with Rose, but he went to the only city with the #2 player in the league (atm) already established there... Wade is a proven winner, someone who Lebron can defer to when he doesn't have it going and just let him completely take over (a la Game 2/3 vs Mavs). I'd rather he go somewhere so he'd be the clearcut leader and #1 option, he had the talent to be GOAT, but playing next to Wade he's lost that oppurtunity now.

If or when I should say, Wade wins Finals MVP, everyone will hold it against Lebron like they do KG.

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 12:28 PM
it looks like u swaped sides in your agument. u said dirk and other stars had more reason to leave than lebron cuz lebron had a good team that won 60+ games.....


now you are saying lebron had nothing to work with and his rosters sucked

Alright did I say Lebron has more reason to leave then Dirk or Kobe after I said that statement? Show me? Because LeBron did have a reason to leave but Dirk and Kobe had better reasons!

Wilson
06-07-2011, 02:34 PM
I think it's because he was billed as the next Jordan and then he went and joined a team that already had it's Michael Jordan (or dominate player and leader).

All the teams mentioned in the OP: it is Kobe Bryant's team, it is Derrick Rose's team and it is Dirk Nowitzki's team, and there is no doubting that. LeBron was said to be better than all of those guys but went and joined someone else's team and appeared to be willing to be second fiddle and not a leader. Right or wrong, that's where I think it all comes from.

It's not that he left Cleveland, it's that he appeared to try take the easiest route to the championship. He convinced so many of us that he could be Jordan and then he went and did maybe the most un-Jordan like thing he could have done.

SteBO
06-07-2011, 02:39 PM
I think it's because he was billed as the next Jordan and then he went and joined a team that already had it's Michael Jordan (or dominate player and leader).

All the teams mentioned in the OP: it is Kobe Bryant's team, it is Derrick Rose's team and it is Dirk Nowitzki's team, and there is no doubting that. LeBron was said to be better than all of those guys but went and joined someone else's team and appeared to be willing to be second fiddle and not a leader. Right or wrong, that's where I think it all comes from.

It's not that he left Cleveland, it's that he appeared to try take the easiest route to the championship. He convinced so many of us that he could be Jordan and then he went and did maybe the most un-Jordan like thing he could have done.
Well, it's clear that he doesn't give two ****s about what fans and the media think. He has 2 MVP's, a bunch of first team all-nba awards, scoring champion, all-star appearances, a gold medal in the olymipcs. Everything, except a title. That's all he cares about, and it's good that he has that mindset. He's never cared about any of the other things.

Wilson
06-07-2011, 02:46 PM
Well, it's clear that he doesn't give two ****s about what fans and the media think. He has 2 MVP's, a bunch of first team all-nba awards, scoring champion, all-star appearances, a gold medal in the olymipcs. Everything, except a title. That's all he cares about, and it's good that he has that mindset. He's never cared about any of the other things.

I wouldn't doubt that. I was just trying to put into words why I think people do hate him. LeBron is his own man and he has broken the mold of what a basketball superstar was supposed to be and do, and a lot of us hate him for it.

I forgot to mention this in my earlier post: let's also not forget that LeBron isn't the first basketball superstar to be strongly disliked by a ton of fans. When I first joined PSD you couldn't move anywhere without someone ripping into Kobe, it's just the way it was. That has settled down and now LeBron is the predominant villain of the NBA. In a few years time the LeBron hate will have settled down and another unfortunate superstar will be on the receiving end of our vitriol. It's regrettably part of the modern game.

tredigs
06-07-2011, 02:46 PM
I think it's because he was billed as the next Jordan and then he went and joined a team that already had it's Michael Jordan (or dominate player and leader).

All the teams mentioned in the OP: it is Kobe Bryant's team, it is Derrick Rose's team and it is Dirk Nowitzki's team, and there is no doubting that. LeBron was said to be better than all of those guys but went and joined someone else's team and appeared to be willing to be second fiddle and not a leader. Right or wrong, that's where I think it all comes from.

It's not that he left Cleveland, it's that he appeared to try take the easiest route to the championship. He convinced so many of us that he could be Jordan and then he went and did maybe the most un-Jordan like thing he could have done.

One day people are going to have to wake up and realize that he isn't Jordan, and doesn't want to be Jordan.

He's Lebron James. His legacy is already etched into the legacy of basketball history as strongly as any legend before him. And I don't think joining the Heat was the easiest road to a ship. Combining two ball dominant wing players of their stature has never been done before, and it could have just as easily exploded (or at the very least, taken more than 1 year to put it all together - as most fans/analysts expected) in their face as worked this well.

Joining the Bulls would've been his easiest path to multiple ships. Younger star, more balanced/better overall team, etc. But then he gets a very equal amount of hate for "trying to be Jordan in Jordan's city - who he will NEVER be!". Remember those threads when the Lebron to Chicago talks were heating up?

And if he stays in Cleveland, they still have zero stars that want to join him in that city and he continues to fall short to the perennial powerhouse programs that are able to trade for and bring in talent quite easily (looking at you, LA Lakers). It was a no-win situation for Lebron, but he's making the best of it by likely bringing a 'ship to Miami in year 1 of this whole fiasco.

ink
06-07-2011, 02:46 PM
I was thinking today about the NBA elites and it made me wonder... why is there such a souble standard today in regaurds to certain superstars?

When Kobe was losing, everyone said he needed help.
When Rose lost, everyone said he needs help.
Now that Dirk is losing, everyone is saying he needs help.

So why then is it okay for some great players to ask for help... but not others (cough Lebron cough)?

I have read person after person knock Lebron's competitiveness and will to win on this site... yet those same people have no problem with Kobe, Rose, Dirk, etc getting the help they need?

Lebron tried to win on his own for 7 years... and he finally figured out that you cannot win in the NBA on your own...so he moved on... and you all hate hom for it.

Please do not turn this into a discussion of the decision. In terms of the the TV show... it was a bad idea. FINE. But that has nothing to do with the ongoing sentiment around the country that Lebron is less of a player for getting help... even though getting help precisely the advice you give every other superstar...

All of the examples you gave of players asking for help were players who stayed with their teams. Kobe stayed, Dirk stayed, Rose is staying. And the first two were not surrounded by elite free agents or top 5 players, they were surrounded by well chosen stars (Gasol, Marion, Kidd). But the main point is that they stayed with the organizations that drafted them. It's the loyalty thing that is the problem and we all know that by now right?

Phenomenonsense
06-07-2011, 02:50 PM
Which is why he needs help...

Nah, he's fast enough as it is. The pick 'n roll just puts him in a terrible position. They couldn't figure that out in 5 games.

SteBO
06-07-2011, 02:52 PM
I wouldn't doubt that. I was just trying to put into words why I think people do hate him. LeBron is his own man and he has broken the mold of what a basketball superstar was supposed to be and do, and a lot of us hate him for it.

I forgot to mention this in my earlier post: let's also not forget that LeBron isn't the first basketball superstar to be strongly disliked by a ton of fans. When I first joined PSD you couldn't move anywhere without someone ripping into Kobe, it's just the way it was. In a few years time the LeBron hate will have settled down and another unfortunate superstar will be on the receiving end of our vitriol.
Very true, and that's why the hate for LeBron is silly and selfish to an extent. The extent being that people just wanted to see LeBron break his back and put up 43, 15, and 13 like statlines for their amusement. He gets trashed for not having a ring while people call him "king james", yet want him to stay in CLE and carry deadweights. That wasn't going to win him anything in todays' NBA, and people need to start realizing that. Wouldn't we all want the freedom to pick and choose where better opportunities for ourselves lie, regarding jobs, scholarships, etc....? I'm sure we do, yet people destroy him for making a career move. It's your typical LeBron double-standard not just on this site, but nationally as well. I just think it's sad and pathetic. I really think that's the case.

tredigs
06-07-2011, 02:55 PM
All of the examples you gave of players asking for help were players who stayed with their teams. Kobe stayed, Dirk stayed, Rose is staying. And the first two were not surrounded by elite free agents or top 5 players, they were surrounded by well chosen stars (Gasol, Marion, Kidd). But the main point is that they stayed with the organizations that drafted them. It's the loyalty thing that is the problem and we all know that by now right?

Rose is on his rookie contract, so we have no clue where his loyalty will (or better yet, would have landed had he been in a situation like Lebron).

Dirk has had two of the greatest PG's of our generation (if not at max prime) and a fantastic owner who has been willing to spend and make trades left and right to get him the talent he needs year after year. NEVER a poor roster around Dirk - ALWAYS been far greater than what Lebron had in Cleveland.

Kobe. Again, we're talking about a guy who lives in THE premiere basketball/celebrity city, came into the league with the games most dominant player - demanded to be traded to Chicago if top level talent didn't surround him immediately in the waning years between Shaq/Pau, then subsequently was given his wish and Buss was able to finagle a deal for a top big to supplement him + Odom + Bynum.

Comparing their situations is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. Surprised you didn't throw in Duncan too.

ink
06-07-2011, 02:59 PM
Very true, and that's why the hate for LeBron is silly and selfish to an extent. The extent being that people just wanted to see LeBron break his back and put up 43, 15, and 13 like statlines for their amusement. He gets trashed for not having a ring while people call him "king james", yet want him to stay in CLE and carry deadweights. That wasn't going to win him anything in todays' NBA, and people need to start realizing that. Wouldn't we all want the freedom to pick and choose where better opportunities for ourselves lie, regarding jobs, scholarships, etc....? I'm sure we do, yet people destroy him for making a career move. It's your typical LeBron double-standard not just on this site, but nationally as well. I just think it's sad and pathetic. I really think that's the case.

I don't hate the guy but I will always question whether his style of play can win without super elite talent to play with. Not many other NBA players can rely on Olympic teammates to back them up or take over games right? I can see why you guys are happy to have a team like that but something seems wrong about monopolizing Olympic talent like that. Of course they should win. That was a big part of the core that won the gold medal. But I would have found a homegrown solution better. And again, I come back to the idea that I don't know whether Lebron's unique style can co-exist with other good players, without them being super-elite and capable of taking games over completely like DWade can. We'll never know.

Da Knicks
06-07-2011, 03:03 PM
I think Lebron would of saved face if he just didnt do the stupid tv show, other than that he needed help. Wade and Bosh knew that James was going to miami also so that made many other teams mad because Lebron gave them false hope with his speeches after the games. Lebron was one of my favorite players but now he is a heat player and me being a knick fan i cannot find myself to like him.

tredigs
06-07-2011, 03:04 PM
I think I resent the hate a bit because personally, I think it's such a shame when absolutely legendary players have their legacies overshadowed because they didn't have the rings of -Insert potentially overrated legend with a hand full of rings here-.

Chris Paul and Lebron are two players that talent wise probably rank among the top 1-5 all time at their position, yet they were both surrounded by weak casts in cities that nobody wants to play in.

I'm truly hoping that Cp3 either gets that help or gets out of New Orleans ASAP. Players that great shouldn't have to have tarnished/unfinished legacies just because of this "loyalty" card.

Also interesting to me how players who are drafted to a team (not of their choosing) in a league where players are rotated around (with no warning) EVERY year are supposed to have this undying loyalty to the city. If anything, I could see the case that Lebron now has a "loyalty" in a sense to Miami being that he chose them, but the guy did everything and more for Cleveland. Ownership, and the city itself not being enticing enough to outside stars is what failed there.

SteBO
06-07-2011, 03:05 PM
I don't hate the guy but I will always question whether his style of play can win without super elite talent to play with. Not many other NBA players can rely on Olympic teammates to back them up or take over games right? I can see why you guys are happy to have a team like that but something seems wrong about monopolizing Olympic talent like that. Of course they should win. That was a big part of the core that won the gold medal. But I would have found a homegrown solution better. And again, I come back to the idea that I don't know whether Lebron's unique style can co-exist with other good players, without them being super-elite and capable of taking games over completely like DWade can. We'll never know.
I think I see what you mean here. Good thing for him he's one hell of a passer, otherwise what you're saying would come to fruition. I also get the "homegrown" thing as well, for it would be cool for LeBron to get championship in his home state, in a place where it hasn't gotten any pro sports accolades for over 4 decades now. But I can't blame him for making a good career move, and leaving CLE when it was evident that team wouldn't get any better.

ink
06-07-2011, 03:06 PM
Rose is on his rookie contract, so we have no clue where his loyalty will (or better yet, would have landed had he been in a situation like Lebron).

Dirk has had two of the greatest PG's of our generation (if not at max prime) and a fantastic owner who has been willing to spend and make trades left and right to get him the talent he needs year after year. NEVER a poor roster around Dirk - ALWAYS been far greater than what Lebron had in Cleveland.

Kobe. Again, we're talking about a guy who lives in THE premiere basketball/celebrity city, came into the league with the games most dominant player - demanded to be traded to Chicago if top level talent didn't surround him immediately in the waning years between Shaq/Pau, then subsequently was given his wish and Buss was able to finagle a deal for a top big to supplement him + Odom + Bynum.

Comparing their situations is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. Surprised you didn't throw in Duncan too.

I was responding to the OP's examples. :rolleyes:

They all stayed. That's the difference. I don't disagree that the other examples of players had teams that surrounded them with better talent, but that isn't the thread question. The reason people seem to disrespect Lebron is the lack of loyalty. Ultimately he didn't stay with the team that drafted him. And the way he finished his playoff career with the Cavs was pretty awful, coupled with some pretty lame stuff in free agency. He has really improved and matured this year, but again, the resentment toward him seems to stem from the way he left his team. Whether the criticism is fair or not is not my call to make.

tredigs
06-07-2011, 03:12 PM
I don't hate the guy but I will always question whether his style of play can win without super elite talent to play with. Not many other NBA players can rely on Olympic teammates to back them up or take over games right? I can see why you guys are happy to have a team like that but something seems wrong about monopolizing Olympic talent like that. Of course they should win. That was a big part of the core that won the gold medal. But I would have found a homegrown solution better. And again, I come back to the idea that I don't know whether Lebron's unique style can co-exist with other good players, without them being super-elite and capable of taking games over completely like DWade can. We'll never know.

The guy got to the NBA Finals with Larry Huges as his number 2. Think about that for a moment.

I'm sure if he was surrounded by a prime Kevin McHale, Robert Parish and a slew of solid role players ala Mr. Bird coming into this league, he wouldn't have had this problem. I'd imagine it's easy to be loyal when you're playing with two prime HOFers.

Context, people. Learn it. Embrace it. (Edit: This is not even a comment for you - it's a general comment as to how NBA players are perceived. Nobody is willing to put in the effort to understand context).

ink
06-07-2011, 03:19 PM
The guy got to the NBA Finals with Larry Huges as his number 2. Think about that for a moment.

I'm sure if he was surrounded by a prime Kevin McHale, Robert Parish and a slew of solid role players ala Mr. Bird coming into this league, he wouldn't have had this problem. I'd imagine it's easy to be loyal when you're playing with two prime HOFers.

Context, people. Learn it. Embrace it.

Yeah we get that already. But the OP asks why the double standard? The reason is that all the names the OP listed stayed with their franchises. We get that it was about talent. You have to admit that the "he had no help" argument has been used for a long time to explain others like AI too right? But the perceived disloyalty in Lebron's case played out in a brutal way all round. That's what the resentment is about, whether it's right or wrong. Personally I find the whole Lebron topic irritating and don't want much more to do with it. Even several NBA-HOFers pointed toward the fact that others stayed with their franchises and made the team a winner. It does make a difference in perception whether we like it or not.

Wilson
06-07-2011, 03:21 PM
One day people are going to have to wake up and realize that he isn't Jordan, and doesn't want to be Jordan.

I agree. I've reluctantly come to that conclusion over the season.


He's Lebron James. His legacy is already etched into the legacy of basketball history as strongly as any legend before him. And I don't think joining the Heat was the easiest road to a ship. Combining two ball dominant wing players of their stature has never been done before, and it could have just as easily exploded (or at the very least, taken more than 1 year to put it all together - as most fans/analysts expected) in their face as worked this well.

I totally agree with this, and I thought they were at least a year away from the Finals. With my previous posts in this thread, I meant that it seemed as if LeBron was trying to take short cuts. I mean I thought LeBron thought it was going to be easier this way and I think a lot of people saw it the same way as me (sorry for the mash of thoughts there, I couldn't think of a better way to put it :o)


Joining the Bulls would've been his easiest path to multiple ships. Younger star, more balanced/better overall team, etc. But then he gets a very equal amount of hate for "trying to be Jordan in Jordan's city - who he will NEVER be!". Remember those threads when the Lebron to Chicago talks were heating up?

I've heard a lot of people say this but I disagree with it. I see the Chicago situation as almost identical to the Miami one, except with a better core of role players in place. Derrick Rose dominates the ball just as much as Dwyane Wade does so I think the same growing pains would have been there.

I think the best fit would have been New York, with Amare Stoudemire as the number two option. You've got a deadly fast-break there, a clear pecking order and options for adding more role players through FA and trades. I don't know if the cap quite worked out for the Knicks to sign both players but I could be wrong.

I think the rest of that quote is dead on though. With no disrespect to them, I think a lot of Bulls fans would have crucified LeBron because of the Jordan shadow. I think we'll see a similar thing in LA after Kobe retires as well.


And if he stays in Cleveland, they still have zero stars that want to join him in that city and he continues to fall short to the perennial powerhouse programs that are able to trade for and bring in talent quite easily (looking at you, LA Lakers). It was a no-win situation for Lebron, but he's making the best of it by likely bringing a 'ship to Miami in year 1 of this whole fiasco.

I've heard it said that LeBron's short contract might have forced the Cavs into panic signings and trades, which is why their roster was so shaky. There's no doubt in my opinion that a lot of their moves didn't make sense. I think LeBron and the Cavs front office could (and should) have been on much better terms way before the decision. That's on both of them though.


Very true, and that's why the hate for LeBron is silly and selfish to an extent. The extent being that people just wanted to see LeBron break his back and put up 43, 15, and 13 like statlines for their amusement. He gets trashed for not having a ring while people call him "king james", yet want him to stay in CLE and carry deadweights. That wasn't going to win him anything in todays' NBA, and people need to start realizing that. Wouldn't we all want the freedom to pick and choose where better opportunities for ourselves lie, regarding jobs, scholarships, etc....? I'm sure we do, yet people destroy him for making a career move. It's your typical LeBron double-standard not just on this site, but nationally as well. I just think it's sad and pathetic. I really think that's the case.

I would put myself in with the ones who wanted to see LeBron exhaust himself as 'The Man'. I mentioned the Knicks, I think he could have written a truly special legacy for himself and the team there, similar to those of Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan and more recently Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant. I agree though that it is selfish of me (and others) to put a guy's future down on paper and say "this is how it is supposed to be".

So many of us wanted to see LeBron be exactly the same as those guys and we were shocked when he wasn't.

To anyone who read this, sorry for the rant guys :o

yanksrock
06-07-2011, 03:26 PM
I think what most means that they need help, could be a star, but not a superstar like Wade. I'll leave it to the others, I'll be out again. Just a suggestion though, stay away from NBA forum!

This:clap:

ink
06-07-2011, 03:26 PM
I would put myself in with the ones who wanted to see LeBron exhaust himself as 'The Man'. I mentioned the Knicks, I think he could have written a truly special legacy for himself and the team there, similar to those of Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Michael Jordan and more recently Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant. I agree though that it is selfish of me (and others) to put a guy's future down on paper and say "this is how it is supposed to be".

I agree. I would have found it a lot more palatable if Lebron had to leave the team that drafted him, if he were to go to a team and lead that team rather than teaming up with his Olympic buddies. That would have felt more like team building than monopolizing.

tredigs
06-07-2011, 03:30 PM
Yeah we get that already. But the OP asks why the double standard? The reason is that all the names the OP listed stayed with their franchises. We get that it was about talent. But the perceived disloyalty played out in a brutal way all round. That's what the resentment is about. Even several NBA-HOFers pointed toward the fact that others stayed with their franchises and made the team a winner. It does make a difference in perception whether we like it or not.

To some it does. To me, and plenty of others, it doesn't.

Again, I try take the time to try to put these players into their proper context.

And again... again, helps that I resent players (even if they're legends that I look up to from a talent standpoint) who hide behind a veil of "loyalty" while simultaneously dismissing the insane talent bridge that they had in comparison to Lebron.

I think I'll write a "Legends" piece comparing the context of each of these players career archs and most crucial free agency decision points after this season ends: Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, Malone, Shaq and 'Bron.

mlisica19
06-07-2011, 03:44 PM
Getting help is different than announcing on ESPN your leaving to Miaimi to join 2 other superstars.

Jordan didnt leave, he waited 6 years for a solid talented player who with his help turned into a top 50 of all time.

Its different if you leave your city where your their hero to join a star packed team.


prime example.
Ray Bourque in NHL for Boston Bruins played his heart and soul for Boston for years! YEARS. At the age of 38, when boston started to lose its star players with injuries and retirments he finally asked to be traded and by honor and respect they gave him 2 a team possible in winning a cup. And he finally did. Thats a story, not about some guy leaving at the age of 26 to join a star packed team. Everyone needs help, but dont expect to be considered a hero or a superstar when you abandon your team

ewing
06-07-2011, 03:44 PM
I was thinking today about the NBA elites and it made me wonder... why is there such a souble standard today in regaurds to certain superstars?

When Kobe was losing, everyone said he needed help.
When Rose lost, everyone said he needs help.
Now that Dirk is losing, everyone is saying he needs help.

So why then is it okay for some great players to ask for help... but not others (cough Lebron cough)?

I have read person after person knock Lebron's competitiveness and will to win on this site... yet those same people have no problem with Kobe, Rose, Dirk, etc getting the help they need?

Lebron tried to win on his own for 7 years... and he finally figured out that you cannot win in the NBA on your own...so he moved on... and you all hate hom for it.

Please do not turn this into a discussion of the decision. In terms of the the TV show... it was a bad idea. FINE. But that has nothing to do with the ongoing sentiment around the country that Lebron is less of a player for getting help... even though getting help precisely the advice you give every other superstar...


It is about the decesion among other things. If the guy didn't act like a ****** all the time he would get as much less hate.

ink
06-07-2011, 03:45 PM
To some it does. To me, and plenty of others, it doesn't.

Again, I try take the time to try to put these players into their proper context.

And again... again, helps that I resent players (even if they're legends that I look up to from a talent standpoint) who hide behind a veil of "loyalty" while simultaneously dismissing the insane talent bridge that they had in comparison to Lebron.

I think I'll write a "Legends" piece comparing the context of each of these players career archs and most crucial free agency decision points after this season ends: Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, Malone, Shaq and 'Bron.

Why bother? People already get the "he needed help" argument from the endless number of times it was made with reference to AI. It still doesn't change the way Lebron conducted himself. That is what alienated people and I don't see the point in fans trying to defend it. Personally -- btw, how many times have you ever seen me in a ****ing Lebron thread, that should tell you how little I care about him -- it doesn't matter much to me where he plays. I like great, homegrown teams and I will almost always enjoy the underdog more. It's human nature to do either: some like to watch a team that is guaranteed to stomp other teams, and some like to watch David beat Goliath. Since Dirk came up in the OP, I'll say that I couldn't be happier than to see him win a championship. I've been following his career since he was drafted and he has been a class act all the way. So I'm always going to pick that kind of player.

mlisica19
06-07-2011, 03:47 PM
I would have not cared if LeBron left if he didnt do it in the manner that he did it. He dragged it on for weeks than announced it on national tv.

He went to a team that a few days before resigned their hero and superstar Dwayne Wade and signed Chris Bosh, another top player in the game.

He then had a concert to showboat their new team. He then announced how this team will not win just 1, but 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 7...

True winners work hard, they would have not wasted their time with these charades. they would have been in the gym or in the film room or playing one on one with their buddies... actually he probably should have been their to lead his USA team to a gold medal. Hes an immature player, and thats why i dislike him as an athlete. Nothing against his skill. The guy has enough talent to be the best, but he acts like a child and always has. Maybe cuz things always came easy to him as a kid.

ne3xchamps
06-07-2011, 04:14 PM
:facepalm: Wade is just as good.

So you mean to tell me that lebron AND wade are both the best players in the world? I'm not talking about stats, just overall.

RaiderLakersA's
06-07-2011, 04:19 PM
One day people are going to have to wake up and realize that he isn't Jordan, and doesn't want to be Jordan.

Agreed. LeBron never wanted to be Jordan. He's said it a million times over. As the story goes, LeBron didn't even have a poster of Jordan on his wall growing up. He wasn't trying to follow in Jordan's shoe steps.

Nor did he emulate the one guy whose game matches his almost to a "T" in Magic Johnson. With his speed and physical attributes, he might have easily dwarfed Magic, given the same mindset and focus. If he'd only learn to play in the post.

We all know who LeBron looked up to in his formative years. It wasn't Jordan. The poster that he had on his wall? You already know the answer to that question.

It's because of his childhood idol that LeBron feels that the only measure of greatness will be championships; to be THE face of a generation. Sure, Jordan has six, but in many respects, that's like telling kids today that Russell has 11. They don't remember. They weren't here. They can't relate. As a consequence, it's not as impactful or meaningful. And how often have we seen people on this and other boards diminish what Russell accomplished? Happens all the time.

LeBron's generation can relate to one guy, however...and he'd do whatever it takes to match or exceed him. Even if it meant joining forces with other franchise players to accomplish that. Right or wrong, LeBron knows in the long run it won't hurt his legacy nearly as much as never having a ring.

ne3xchamps
06-07-2011, 04:22 PM
Very true, and that's why the hate for LeBron is silly and selfish to an extent. The extent being that people just wanted to see LeBron break his back and put up 43, 15, and 13 like statlines for their amusement. He gets trashed for not having a ring while people call him "king james", yet want him to stay in CLE and carry deadweights. That wasn't going to win him anything in todays' NBA, and people need to start realizing that. Wouldn't we all want the freedom to pick and choose where better opportunities for ourselves lie, regarding jobs, scholarships, etc....? I'm sure we do, yet people destroy him for making a career move. It's your typical LeBron double-standard not just on this site, but nationally as well. I just think it's sad and pathetic. I really think that's the case.

Nice post again stebo. I will say this, I don't hate on lebron for leaving to another team, that was his right as a free agent. The WAY he left is I think where alot of the hate comes from. Dragging cleveland through the mud, and so on. If he straight up told cleveland he didn't want to stay, IMO it would have been different. But Lebron made his bed, now he has to lay in it.

rabzouz 96
06-07-2011, 05:00 PM
because its lebron, people were scared that he could be better than kobe or any other of their favorite players and found multiple highly important reasons why hes a bad human being

The Final Boss
06-07-2011, 05:13 PM
Who's Lebron James?

Cbast09
06-07-2011, 05:21 PM
You people need to stop talking about him. How many times are people going to have this same argument?

MagicHero3
06-07-2011, 05:24 PM
the thoughts of the person who initiated this thread...

"wah! wah! why does everyone hate lebron! wah!"

get over it, did you REALLY find something ELSE to complain about? your in the Finals! you dont have the right to complain.

whitemamba33
06-07-2011, 05:33 PM
You are so wrong it isn't even funny. Being a competitor is not about winning or losing... it is about how you play the game. He never reached his goal in Cleveland... boo hoo... but he tried for 7 years. He COMPETED for 7 years. He decided he need more help so he came to Miami and he has COMPETED on both ends of the corut all year. Anyone who questions the competitiveness of Lebron James or Dwyane Wade has a very very short memory.

When did I say that it was about winning and losing?

He plays hard...most of the time (I guess my very very short memory doesn't allow me to forget about last years playoffs). He said he was going to do something, and he quit. That's not competitive. You are telling me he quit because he decided he needed more help. So basically he quit because things were a little too hard for him in Cleveland. I'm supposed to call that a competitive spirit? Did Jordan quit on the Bulls after he went like 6 straight years without winning a championship?

Jordan said it the best: He would have NEVER left to go team with Magic and Bird. There is not a competitive spirit that I respect more than Michael Jordan's.

I don't know why you even throw Wade into this conversation. But...ok?

Why do you make a thread asking a question if you don't want to listen to answers? You wanted to know why there is a double standard, and I told you why. Rose, Dirk, Kobe are going balls out and sticking with their teams...not looking to go elsewhere and trying to recruit other stars to come along with them. People don't like that LeBron *****ed out. Question answered.

Boo hoo.

whitemamba33
06-07-2011, 05:37 PM
You people need to stop talking about him. How many times are people going to have this same argument?

Tell that to the Miami fan who made the thread in the first place.

Lakerhead4ever
06-07-2011, 05:48 PM
easy question. because instead of joining good players he decided to join 2 other greta players.

how can u join one of your main competition?

but who cares, its over.

whitemamba33
06-07-2011, 05:51 PM
Very true, and that's why the hate for LeBron is silly and selfish to an extent. The extent being that people just wanted to see LeBron break his back and put up 43, 15, and 13 like statlines for their amusement. He gets trashed for not having a ring while people call him "king james", yet want him to stay in CLE and carry deadweights. That wasn't going to win him anything in todays' NBA, and people need to start realizing that. Wouldn't we all want the freedom to pick and choose where better opportunities for ourselves lie, regarding jobs, scholarships, etc....? I'm sure we do, yet people destroy him for making a career move. It's your typical LeBron double-standard not just on this site, but nationally as well. I just think it's sad and pathetic. I really think that's the case.

I saw it as a weakness. That's all. Going to Miami was the easy thing to do. Sure he had to deal with the backlash that followed, but as far as winning championships...going to Miami was the easy way out. And he took it. That's fine, I have no problem with that. But at the end of the day don't expect me to respect him for it or act like he's on par with some of the self-made men that don't take the easy way out. Because he's not. And he likely never will be.

1 championship in Cleveland would have equaled 5 in Miami in my books.

I understand it was a "career move", and I think a lot of people do. Hell, perhaps it is our own faults for expecting him to be somebody that he obviously isn't. The world wanted him to be courageous, the world wanted him to be fearless, the world wanted to see him bring a championship to a small market team and prove that he valued something more than easy championships and big market teams. He's not that guy. I understand what he did and why he did it, but just don't ask me to respect him for it.

Big Zo
06-07-2011, 06:04 PM
The funny thing is that athletes are always frowned upon when they act selfish and are all about the money. This guy had no problem sharing the spotlight and took less money to win, yet now all of a sudden he's right there with Hitler. And I bet every single person on this board would LOVE to have him on their team.

Big Zo
06-07-2011, 06:13 PM
Hey Blackmamba, since when does playing basketball make someone "fearless" and "courageous"?

whitemamba33
06-07-2011, 06:28 PM
Hey Blackmamba, since when does playing basketball make someone "fearless" and "courageous"?

He obviously cares about his legacy. And that is a good thing. It goes beyond simply "playing the game", but that would have required you to think about it for more than a second before clicking the "reply" button.

Staying with a small market team is a risk in terms of his legacy. He could go winless and be grouped with players like Charles and Malone. Even if he were to win a title, it would always be an uphill climb to compete with players who have won many more. That's a lot of pressure if you ask me. He would have had to continue to carry a large load for years and years. He would have had to do more scoring, rebounding..pretty much everything. He would have had to work a lot harder for it. That is courageous if you ask me.

Going to Miami was the "safe" thing to do. Even Miami fans admit that. They use it as a reason why he should have left and did.

It's funny though, what he thinks is helping him is only going to hurt him in my opinion.

Cbast09
06-07-2011, 06:47 PM
Tell that to the Miami fan who made the thread in the first place.

I'm speaking to everyone in general. Why do people continue to bring this up? Heat fan or not.

whitemamba33
06-07-2011, 06:49 PM
I'm speaking to everyone in general. Why do people continue to bring this up? Heat fan or not.

Because people want to talk about it?

20 years from now you won't be able to talk about LeBron James without bringing up that he fled from Cleveland. That kind of impact is going to get discussed once in a while on NBA forums.....it is just something you are going to have to get used to I guess.

It is an endless struggle between Heat fans who try and justify it and everyone else in the world who sees it as a ***** move. But you know and I know 100% that if LeBron went to Chicago or any other team, Miami fans wouldn't be so high on him leaving Cleveland. But on the other side, most people wouldn't complain if he went to their favorite team. I'm not one of those people. I don't think it would be good for the Lakers or the NBA if he came there, yet I still think it was a ***** move.

bulls leakage
06-07-2011, 07:01 PM
LeBron wasn't hated as much before he left Cleveland. The people who blamed him for not winning in Cleveland were a select group of Lakers fans who were denial over the fact that LeBron was better than Kobe. Honestly, I never saw much hate aside from that.

Cbast09
06-07-2011, 07:01 PM
Because people want to talk about it?

20 years from now you won't be able to talk about LeBron James without bringing up that he fled from Cleveland. That kind of impact is going to get discussed once in a while on NBA forums.....it is just something you are going to have to get used to I guess.

It is an endless struggle between Heat fans who try and justify it and everyone else in the world who sees it as a ***** move. But you know and I know 100% that if LeBron went to Chicago or any other team, Miami fans wouldn't be so high on him leaving Cleveland. But on the other side, most people wouldn't complain if he went to their favorite team. I'm not one of those people. I don't think it would be good for the Lakers or the NBA if he came there, yet I still think it was a ***** move.

You're right.

Avenged
06-07-2011, 07:04 PM
Without reading anyones response, I would say the fact that Lebron joined the 2nd best player in the league has a lot to do with it. Nobody was criticizing him when he needed the help in Cleveland.

Nobody would have criticized him if it were only Lebron & Bosh.

I think the majority has to do with him joining with arguably the 2nd best player in the game. And I will disagree about Kobe not being criticized about wanting help.. Heck, when he had the help, all credit goes to other players. When he wins, it's because of Shaq. When he wins again, it's because of Pau.

It's just part of the game that star players go through, and Lebron is not excluded.

jockrider
06-07-2011, 07:09 PM
Love the Sig!

its funny but its also even more hilarious when a bulls fan is the one wearing it i mean bron just completely destroyed that team while their superstar(debrick rose) was the one missing shots with the game on the line.

hugepatsfan
06-07-2011, 07:10 PM
Well for starters, the way Lebron went about this is unheard of. There is no comparison. The OP mentioned other players, but those situations are different. We've never seen the best player in the NBA sign w/ the team that currently had the #2 player in the NBA and take a top 20 player (top 3 at position) w/ him. Pointing out Rose's, Dirk's or any other situation is useless because no similar scenario to this exists.

And I do not hate Lebron for signing w/ MIA. He took less money to play in a spot he likes - I respect that. I hate him for being an egotistical douchebag. Nothing else.

Crackadalic
06-07-2011, 07:17 PM
Lebron didnt want to do it by himself so he join other great players to win. Kobe demanded to be traded and was this close to being a bull then they gift wrap gasol to him. If kobe would have gotten traded everyone would have said he quit on his team. Thats where the double standard comes in.

Winning rings has so much to do base on team success thats you can't knock great player for wanting to win with other great players. As good as Mj was he couldnt win all the rings without pippen IMO

jockrider
06-07-2011, 07:26 PM
easy question. because instead of joining good players he decided to join 2 other greta players.

how can u join one of your main competition?

but who cares, its over.

how was mia or wade his main competition? wade/mia have been mediocre for awhile now. also the lakers and celtics both just stack their teams with multiple allstars and hall of famers how is anyone going to compete with that? lakers in the finals 3 straight years 2 rings celtics 2 yrs with a ring. but once another team does it it's bad, who cares how he did it? do you honestly care about cavs fans feelings? i think its another excuse to hate bron so they all act offended by the decision.

other teams are stacking their teams like mia and nyk to compete with these teams i guess a lot of laker/celtic fans are threatened by the new competition.

GiantsSwaGG
06-07-2011, 07:39 PM
Lebron didnt want to do it by himself so he join other great players to win. Kobe demanded to be traded and was this close to being a bull then they gift wrap gasol to him. If kobe would have gotten traded everyone would have said he quit on his team. Thats where the double standard comes in.

Winning rings has so much to do base on team success thats you can't knock great player for wanting to win with other great players. As good as Mj was he couldnt win all the rings without pippen IMO

But he didn't go to Pippen team, Pippen came to his team. TAnd out of all this grief Dwayne Wade is the one thats not getting bashed why? because they came to him, he didn't run to them. But at the end of the day the one thing I do respect about LeBron which gets lost is that he didn't think about himself, its not all about him...He wanted to win rings...Which is the main reason you play this sport as well as others. You play to win the game (As Herman Edwards once said). He took a pay and basically said, "I might be the best player in basketball, but im no MJ"....I don't like what he did but at the end of the day you have to respect what he did. He wants to win and win rings!

ink
06-07-2011, 08:29 PM
Without reading anyones response, I would say the fact that Lebron joined the 2nd best player in the league has a lot to do with it. Nobody was criticizing him when he needed the help in Cleveland.

Nobody would have criticized him if it were only Lebron & Bosh.

I think the majority has to do with him joining with arguably the 2nd best player in the game. And I will disagree about Kobe not being criticized about wanting help.. Heck, when he had the help, all credit goes to other players. When he wins, it's because of Shaq. When he wins again, it's because of Pau.

It's just part of the game that star players go through, and Lebron is not excluded.

Good points.

HouRealCoach
06-07-2011, 08:37 PM
Whats funny is how Magic dissapproved him saying he shouldve stayed in Cleveland when he got drafted by LA with a team that included Kareem, Scott, and Nixon and soon Cooper, Worthy, Rambis, etc.

That cracks me up

But I dont see anything wrong with him going to Miami

Hawkeye15
06-07-2011, 08:43 PM
I was thinking today about the NBA elites and it made me wonder... why is there such a souble standard today in regaurds to certain superstars?

When Kobe was losing, everyone said he needed help.
When Rose lost, everyone said he needs help.
Now that Dirk is losing, everyone is saying he needs help.

So why then is it okay for some great players to ask for help... but not others (cough Lebron cough)?

I have read person after person knock Lebron's competitiveness and will to win on this site... yet those same people have no problem with Kobe, Rose, Dirk, etc getting the help they need?

Lebron tried to win on his own for 7 years... and he finally figured out that you cannot win in the NBA on your own...so he moved on... and you all hate hom for it.

Please do not turn this into a discussion of the decision. In terms of the the TV show... it was a bad idea. FINE. But that has nothing to do with the ongoing sentiment around the country that Lebron is less of a player for getting help... even though getting help precisely the advice you give every other superstar...

Simply put, the media and general fans hold LeBron to a higher standard than we have ever held an athlete to. Adande wrote a great article the other day, basically saying that no matter what LeBron does, its just not enough. He needs to not only win a ring, but he needs to go for 40-20-10 in order for the haters and general fans to shut up.

LeBron James is the most hated athlete by the general public I have ever seen. Nearly every criticism he gets is pure double standard. That will not change.

Hopefully, when he is a 45 year old man, the average fan/media member, can get over themselves, and reflect back on what they saw without the searing hatred and need to see him fail.

I am skeptical that will ever happen unfortunately. LeBron has more talent than Kobe, Dirk, or any other modern athlete. People EXPECT nothing but greatness and success, while ignoring that he plays a team sport.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2011, 08:45 PM
Without reading anyones response, I would say the fact that Lebron joined the 2nd best player in the league has a lot to do with it. Nobody was criticizing him when he needed the help in Cleveland.

Nobody would have criticized him if it were only Lebron & Bosh.

I think the majority has to do with him joining with arguably the 2nd best player in the game. And I will disagree about Kobe not being criticized about wanting help.. Heck, when he had the help, all credit goes to other players. When he wins, it's because of Shaq. When he wins again, it's because of Pau.

It's just part of the game that star players go through, and Lebron is not excluded.

My good friend, this is pure BS. Period. He has been the most criticized athlete of the past 3 years, and there isn't even a close second.

Wilson
06-07-2011, 08:57 PM
My good friend, this is pure BS. Period. He has been the most criticized athlete of the past 3 years, and there isn't even a close second.

He was incredibly scrutinised, but no more so than Kobe before him. The criticism went crazy after the decision but people have said repeatedly that the way he went about is was the worst thing, which is a fair point in my opinion.

Fayzon10
06-07-2011, 09:14 PM
This is a very easy answer. Dirk, Rose, Kobe etc. didn't quit on thier teams during a pivotal game in the playoffs, then take a dump all over their hometown cities. Neither of those guys have left thier respective teams to go be second fiddle to another Superstar. They are the guys that LEAD thier teams and will them to victories. LeBron on the other hand has done all those things, and didn't have the common sense and decentcy as a human being to call the Cavs top brass to let them know he waqs leaving town. The Cavs coul dhave worked a better sign and trade to get back a player like Beasly etc plus the cap space. With what he's done I have no respect for him. He doesn't want to be great he just wants to have the glory without earning it. If the Heat win the championship not just this year but any year they shouldn't even be recognized as one of the great teams. They should be referred to as everything that is wrong with professional basketball in the current era.
I agree with about 95 percent of this....

Hawkeye15
06-07-2011, 09:37 PM
He was incredibly scrutinised, but no more so than Kobe before him. The criticism went crazy after the decision but people have said repeatedly that the way he went about is was the worst thing, which is a fair point in my opinion.

I humbly disagree. Kobe winning 3 rings as a kid with a great cast let him off the hook as far as the ridiculous scrutiny LeBron has played under.

You may be right, that the HATE (notice the substitution I used) became exponential after the decision, but none of that would be necessary had LeBron been brought into the strongest franchise in modern basketball like Kobe was.

Avenged
06-07-2011, 09:59 PM
My good friend, this is pure BS. Period. He has been the most criticized athlete of the past 3 years, and there isn't even a close second.

Well, yes, he has been criticized in general.

But about help specifically he wasn't until he joined the Heat, at least not that I remember. When they were trading for Shaq, nobody criticized Lebron for it. (Although he wasn't the same Shaq at all, many felt he was the piece to get them over the hump). When Cleveland was looking to acquire Amare, Lebron wasn't criticized because of it.

I'm pretty sure there were some "haters" who said something simply because they hate him.. But a good logical critique didn't bash Lebron for it. It all changed (in terms of help) when he paired up with Wade.

avrpatsfan
06-07-2011, 10:05 PM
The reason is because Lebron quit on the Cavs in the playoffs. And the decision. Those are really the only reasons.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2011, 10:08 PM
Well, yes, he has been criticized in general.

But about help specifically he wasn't until he joined the Heat, at least not that I remember. When they were trading for Shaq, nobody criticized Lebron for it. (Although he wasn't the same Shaq at all, many felt he was the piece to get them over the hump). When Cleveland was looking to acquire Amare, Lebron wasn't criticized because of it.

I'm pretty sure there were some "haters" who said something simply because they hate him.. But a good logical critique didn't bash Lebron for it. It all changed (in terms of help) when he paired up with Wade.

Well, there are so many who still honestly think he had help in Cleveland, and should have stayed there to keep his legacy is my point. He might never be forgiven for actually leaving for a team that gives him the support to win a ring.

And I hope we both agree, Kobe has never, ever, ever, gotten the basketball criticism of LeBron James.

whitemamba33
06-07-2011, 10:36 PM
Kobe has been heavily criticized since high school...i'll never feel sorry for LeBron in that sense and he shouldn't worry about it either. In a lot of ways, it is a compliment.

At the end of the day if you can be happy with what you've done, that's all that matters. That is the only reason why I was so very disappointed with "the decision". I wanted better for him. But if he's happy with what he's doing, he has to understand that there will be criticism that comes along with it.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2011, 10:46 PM
Kobe has been heavily criticized since high school...i'll never feel sorry for LeBron in that sense and he shouldn't worry about it either. In a lot of ways, it is a compliment.

At the end of the day if you can be happy with what you've done, that's all that matters. That is the only reason why I was so very disappointed with "the decision". I wanted better for him. But if he's happy with what he's doing, he has to understand that there will be criticism that comes along with it.

great post.

ink
06-07-2011, 10:49 PM
Well, there are so many who still honestly think he had help in Cleveland, and should have stayed there to keep his legacy is my point. He might never be forgiven for actually leaving for a team that gives him the support to win a ring.

And I hope we both agree, Kobe has never, ever, ever, gotten the basketball criticism of LeBron James.

Hawk, I respect you as a poster but you have to admit that he has brought a lot of this on himself because of his own behaviour. He owns that. You're leaving out a huge part of the picture if you ignore it. And btw, you're a good enough poster to know that what you're talking about is not a "legacy". You're talking about a REPUTATION, which is not the same as a legacy. Lebron's reputation was built by Lebron, and it includes some really questionable actions. It's not holding someone to a high standard to expect him to shake hands after a game or to give it his complete effort in a playoff series that might be his last with the Cavs. Come on now. I know you're fighting off a lot of stupid hate for Lebron, but at the same time you need to be accurate yourself. Props for defending the guy though; he's not easy to back up. Everyone knows he is probably more blessed with natural skill and sheer ability than almost anyone else in the history of the game. The questions most people have are about the man himself. And as for standards, I think Kobe and a few other NBA superstars have also suffered a ton of hate for their own actions. He's not alone. He's just the latest.

jockrider
06-07-2011, 10:55 PM
The reason is because Lebron quit on the Cavs in the playoffs. And the decision. Those are really the only reasons.

ok thats why cavs fans hate him, do you really care about their feelings? you guys were even shouting go to NY to lebron on game six.

vince carter quit on us,demanded a trade, then told the opposing team what plays we run in the fourth quarter are you ready to help me hate on carter? its obvious it more than that its has more to do with jealousy/hate.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2011, 10:56 PM
Hawk, I respect you as a poster but you have to admit that he has brought a lot of this on himself because of his own behaviour. He owns that. You're leaving out a huge part of the picture if you ignore it. And btw, you're a good enough poster to know that what you're talking about is not a "legacy". You're talking about a REPUTATION, which is not the same as a legacy. Lebron's reputation was built by Lebron, and it includes some really questionable actions. It's not holding someone to a high standard to expect him to shake hands after a game or to give it his complete effort in a playoff series that might be his last with the Cavs. Come on now. I know you're fighting off a lot of stupid hate for Lebron, but at the same time you need to be accurate yourself. Props for defending the guy though; he's not easy to back up. Everyone knows he is probably more blessed with natural skill and sheer ability. The questions most people have are about the man himself. And as for standards, I think Kobe and a few other NBA superstars have also suffered a ton of hate for their own actions. He's not alone. He's just the latest.


fair enough. Please understand that the criticism, whether its warranted or not, has made me pull for Bron to win a ring so we can move past the trivial part of the argument.

Yes, Bron brought some of the criticism upon himself. No doubt. As does any all time great. But we are talking about a 26 year old who has put up all time stats, and just needs the rings to set his legacy with the top 10 guys.

ink
06-07-2011, 11:08 PM
Kobe has been heavily criticized since high school...i'll never feel sorry for LeBron in that sense and he shouldn't worry about it either. In a lot of ways, it is a compliment.

At the end of the day if you can be happy with what you've done, that's all that matters. That is the only reason why I was so very disappointed with "the decision". I wanted better for him. But if he's happy with what he's doing, he has to understand that there will be criticism that comes along with it.

A lot of people who make serious mistakes in life are "happy with what (they're) doing". :shrug: I don't see how that's defensible. The sad thing about the decision is that, given the other things he had done before in his career, I wasn't surprised at all with the farcical TV announcement. I don't think he's very bright, which isn't such a crime in itself, but it would be great if he had been able to summon up some class. Having said that, I think he is actually learning now and he is showing more maturity and intelligence in interviews. He has done a shitload of stupid things though and that's clearly why he isn't particularly well-liked.

ink
06-07-2011, 11:12 PM
fair enough. Please understand that the criticism, whether its warranted or not, has made me pull for Bron to win a ring so we can move past the trivial part of the argument.

Yes, Bron brought some of the criticism upon himself. No doubt. As does any all time great. But we are talking about a 26 year old who has put up all time stats, and just needs the rings to set his legacy with the top 10 guys.

I hear you, but I think he has screwed himself more than anything, and he has done it more often than any other all time great (except maybe Shaq and Kobe, who behaved like major dicks for a few years).

And this "legacy" thing again lol. A legacy is your progeny, your offspring, what you leave behind for others, it's literally an inheritance for those who follow you. When a player wins a ring it is for now, for the athlete, it has nothing to do with so-called "legacy". He's not leaving his ring for someone in a will right? What you're talking about is his reputation, his inclusion as a member of the top 10 of all time.

And I definitely get that you and a few other excellent posters are trying to stem the tide of hate for the guy just because it's gone way too far. Problem is, he really did **** his own bed, and unfortunately he has to lie in it. Hey, he has a long career ahead of him, so he will probably redeem himself.

Hawkeye15
06-07-2011, 11:14 PM
I hear you, but I think he has screwed himself more than anything, and he has done it more often than any other all time great (except maybe Shaq and Kobe, who behaved like major dicks for a few years).

And this "legacy" thing again lol. A legacy is your progeny, your offspring, what you leave behind for others, it's literally an inheritance for those who follow you. When a player wins a ring it is for now, for the athlete, it has nothing to do with so-called "legacy". He's not leaving his ring for someone in a will right? What you're talking about is his reputation, his inclusion as a member of the top 10 of all time.

if we ranked players off reputation, our top 20 would look so much different man.

ink
06-07-2011, 11:43 PM
if we ranked players off reputation, our top 20 would look so much different man.

Reputation includes everything they've won, any titles, rings, championships, gold medals, draft pick placement, the whole thing. Legacy means what they leave to those that follow. For example, Jordan's "legacy" is not his championships, it's his influence on the SG position. IMO the word started getting misused by some fan who wanted to use a big, fancy word he didn't really understand and it stuck. Anyway, that's a side-discussion and I didn't mean to throw the thread off-topic.

About Lebron: there's been so much hate for the guy it's not even possible to point out that he legitimately has been a dick without people assuming that I'm being a hater for saying so. I'm not. I just think he wrecked his own young career by being so arrogant and now he has a big hole to dig himself out of. So did Kobe, maybe even a lot worse in fact, and Kobe's managed to dig himself out OK.

Wilson
06-08-2011, 12:05 AM
I humbly disagree. Kobe winning 3 rings as a kid with a great cast let him off the hook as far as the ridiculous scrutiny LeBron has played under.

You may be right, that the HATE (notice the substitution I used) became exponential after the decision, but none of that would be necessary had LeBron been brought into the strongest franchise in modern basketball like Kobe was.

Kobe had the rings but the general consensus here was that he didn't deserve them; they were Shaq's rings and Kobe was just lucky to be along for the ride.

As for the second paragraph, again I think Kobe is a good parallel. People were very harsh on him when he wanted to leave the Lakers because of the Kwame Brown / Smush Parker / Luke Walton starting line-up, people said he was a quitter too. Do you not think he would have received just as much criticism if he had said he was going to deliver championships and then sign with a team that already had a clear cut leader?

I stand by that LeBron is not the first superstar to be hated, that's just part of being a star. There are 29 other fan bases that want to knock you off your pedestal. It goes a bit further with LeBron, I think because of all the stuff I mentioned earlier in the thread (plus the decision/party), but this will eventually pass and people will move onto the next superstar to hate. It's part of the game now.

ink
06-08-2011, 12:09 AM
Kobe had the rings but the general consensus here was that he didn't deserve them; they were Shaq's rings and Kobe was just lucky to be along for the ride.

As for the second paragraph, again I think Kobe is a good parallel. People were very harsh on him when he wanted to leave the Lakers because of the Kwame Brown / Smush Parker / Luke Walton starting line-up, people said he was a quitter too. Do you not think he would have received just as much criticism if he had said he was going to deliver championships and then sign with a team that already had a clear cut leader?

I stand by that LeBron is not the first superstar to be hated, that's just part of being a star. There are 29 other fan bases that want to knock you off your pedestal. It goes a bit further with LeBron, I think because of all the stuff I mentioned earlier in the thread (plus the decision/party), but this will eventually pass and people will move onto the next superstar to hate. It's part of the game now.

Sad but true. Hate is ruining basketball like no other sport IMO.

Avenged
06-08-2011, 12:09 AM
Well, there are so many who still honestly think he had help in Cleveland, and should have stayed there to keep his legacy is my point. He might never be forgiven for actually leaving for a team that gives him the support to win a ring.

And I hope we both agree, Kobe has never, ever, ever, gotten the basketball criticism of LeBron James.

I'm not so sure about Kobe/Lebron comparison in terms of criticism.. Probably it's because it has dwindled, but Kobe was hated by a lot. When the rape allegations came out, Kobe was eaten alive by everyone. To this day, people still hold that against him.

Only thing is that Lebron has surpassed him so most of the attention goes to him. This is nothing new, superstars always go through what Lebron is, there's no reason to make Bron' the victim when others have gone through the same.

ink
06-08-2011, 12:16 AM
I'm not so sure about Kobe/Lebron comparison in terms of criticism.. Probably it's because it has dwindled, but Kobe was hated by a lot. When the rape allegations came out, Kobe was eaten alive by everyone. To this day, people still hold that against him

That's what I was thinking of too. Kobe weathered so much hate in here we had to have a moratorium on Kobe threads for a while. Bit by bit it went away, but he is still hated by many. It's hard to know how to deal with all the hatred because it doesn't lead to anything useful and it ruins threads and forums.

towlsmoke420
06-08-2011, 12:18 AM
People dislike Lebron because he claims himself as the "chosen 1". He is the supposed "better than Jordan".

I admit Yes Jordan had pippen. BUT pippen never averaged more than 24 points a game his whole career.

Chris Bosh averages Scottie Pippens points per game.

Dwyane Wade was scoring champ. And averages 26+

northsider
06-08-2011, 12:58 AM
He didn't have to leave though just cause you need help doesn't mean you leave what you started unfinished. I understand this is the fault of the Cavs but, those other guys got semi passes cause they needed help but, they didn't leave there situations.

I really don't care that he did it but, I would really think the best thing he could of done was staying with the Cavs and trying to recruit a player to join him. He is amazingly good and I really believe he would of brought a championship and a winning attitude to a big time losing city.

He was putting Cleveland on the map and making them a sports town to watch(no pun indians you are doing good but its baseball and most don't like it).

I mean I really feel like he could of proved soooo much more by staying in CLe and winning one rather then going somewhere to join not just other guys but, one of the top 5 players in the league. I understand you need help but, basically you got super duper help almost enough to where now it sort of takes away from the hardship it takes to build a winning team.

I really am not trying to bash Lebron I do respect the **** out of his game and he is the best player in the league.

I just think what he did and what the others did is complete opposite and really not even comparable. I don't think Cle was as far from winning as this move makes it look like.

I mean really when you lay it out could you really imagine where it would take his career if he made the ****ing Cavs a championship team. Either way the move is done and wether you like it or not, it does kind of seem like he took a cheap route.

northsider
06-08-2011, 01:01 AM
Also anyone who brings up the Pippen Jordan thing fails terribly to realize Pippens career took off with Jordan and those 2 became good together. It wasn't like Pippen was a perrinial player (like Wade was as well as Bosh) and then the Bulls went and got Pippen. This team became good together they didn't join forces after the fact.

I mean if Pippen was a star on another team and had a champion ship and then Jordan went and joined him or vice versa then it would be the same but, it isn't. The fact remains those 2 built a empire together with other good to great role players around them.

I don't see the comparisons at all.

MagicHero3
06-08-2011, 09:11 AM
usually in the NBA, you dont use the "if you cant beat em', join em'" philosophy, and if you do, you dont use the "pre-season showboating celebrating the rings you havent even won yet" to add insult to injury! Has any other player telecasted their "decision" to what team their going to like he did? has any respected player left his own team in the dark about what he wants instead of telling them straight up? Clevland are fools for thinking he was going to stay, they really shoulda traded him out, but they didnt. But If lebron had warned them, they would have.
The contradiction isnt bc he left, it was the process in which he did it. Theres really no reason to go thru all this defending him if your a heat fan, what he did bothered everybody BUT the Heat, so be grateful you were the only ones who didnt have to hate him.

rabzouz 96
06-08-2011, 09:16 AM
taking some things that were said into perspective, the ridiculous hate didnt start with the change of scenery but was there before, he couldnt do anything right and if he had won a ring with shaq people were saying beforehand that it wouldnt count more than any oof kobes earlier rings, because he also had shaq(strong logic since that shaq was a shell of his former self).

he could never be better than kobe because kobe could score in more different ways, totally disregarding that lebron could score on higher percentages and was better in most other categories.

i think the main reason for the amount of hate hes receiving since joining miami is that, unlike other players of his caliber, all the major market teams fanbases expected him to sign with them, because cleveland was obviously not the team that could give him any players good enough to win anytime soon, and a change of scenery was more than expected, besides of the lakers, most of whose fans disliked lebron because they want kobe to be mjs successor. but chicago fans got their hopes up, knicks fans got their hope up ,nets fans got their hope up cleveland fans got their hope up for resigning, then he did the unexpected and signed with the heat, who already had wade, so many expectations were crushed that day, from very large markets, fans perceived it as unfair that this organisation who already had this top player got an even better one and so the disappointment began to morphe into hate, as its always when u desire sth that decides against you.

ink
06-08-2011, 10:37 AM
usually in the NBA, you dont use the "if you cant beat em', join em'" philosophy, and if you do, you dont use the "pre-season showboating celebrating the rings you havent even won yet" to add insult to injury! Has any other player telecasted their "decision" to what team their going to like he did? has any respected player left his own team in the dark about what he wants instead of telling them straight up? Clevland are fools for thinking he was going to stay, they really shoulda traded him out, but they didnt. But If lebron had warned them, they would have.
The contradiction isnt bc he left, it was the process in which he did it. Theres really no reason to go thru all this defending him if your a heat fan, what he did bothered everybody BUT the Heat, so be grateful you were the only ones who didnt have to hate him.

Exactly.

jockrider
06-08-2011, 11:50 AM
so lebron should have joined the celtics right? cause he had no problem beating dwade and the heat.

MagicHero3
06-08-2011, 11:54 AM
so lebron should have joined the celtics right? cause he had no problem beating dwade and the heat.

"them" means champions/superstars. he couldnt beat other teams with superstars, so he joined a team with 2 superstars, one of which is a champion.

pd1dish
06-08-2011, 12:32 PM
I was thinking today about the NBA elites and it made me wonder... why is there such a souble standard today in regaurds to certain superstars?

When Kobe was losing, everyone said he needed help.
When Rose lost, everyone said he needs help.
Now that Dirk is losing, everyone is saying he needs help.

So why then is it okay for some great players to ask for help... but not others (cough Lebron cough)?

I have read person after person knock Lebron's competitiveness and will to win on this site... yet those same people have no problem with Kobe, Rose, Dirk, etc getting the help they need?

Lebron tried to win on his own for 7 years... and he finally figured out that you cannot win in the NBA on your own...so he moved on... and you all hate hom for it.

Please do not turn this into a discussion of the decision. In terms of the the TV show... it was a bad idea. FINE. But that has nothing to do with the ongoing sentiment around the country that Lebron is less of a player for getting help... even though getting help precisely the advice you give every other superstar...

this is not the reason i hate on Lebron, but the reason most people dislike Lebron is because he ditched his team and conspired with other players (probably for a long time) to team up. regardless of what Lebron says, he knew he was going to leave Cleveland prior to free agency. it showed in the Celtics series. he left Cleveland high and dry.

those players that you mentioned (Kobe, Rose, Dirk) arent players that we are saying should leave their team. Kobe doesnt necessarily need help. LA has so many good players already that Kobe has the help, they just need to step up. we are saying Dirk needs help because so much of Dallas' offense comes off of their bench with Terry and Barea being a big part of that. and with the Bulls, it should be obvious that Rose needs help on the offensive end. the difference between these guys and Lebron is that they stuck it out with their teams.

Dallas has been bad in the playoffs up until this year and Dirk never asked for a trade or wanted out. Kobe won 3 rings with Shaq and Kobe actually wanted Shaq out of there so he could do it as the lone superstar. yes, he got help from Gasol and some of the other great role players, but in the end, he stayed at LA.

jockrider
06-08-2011, 12:37 PM
"them" means champions/superstars. he couldnt beat other teams with superstars, so he joined a team with 2 superstars, one of which is a champion.

its actually a good thing since lakers/celtics have no problems stacking their teams with obscene amount of talent.

Tarheels23
06-08-2011, 12:42 PM
Seems like most people are comparing the Kobe situation to the LeBron situation. Here is my main difference to that...

Kobe wanted to beat the Duncans, the Nash's, the KGs, the Dirks, etc. He never once thought about going to play along side of them because his competitive nature (and some would say ego) wouldnt let him.

Yes Kobe did get his help eventually. But cmon, Kobe teaming up with Gasol (which was a trade by the way) is not even close to the same thing as Lebron going with Wade.

nickdymez
06-08-2011, 01:02 PM
My good friend, this is pure BS. Period. He has been the most criticized athlete of the past 3 years, and there isn't even a close second.

lmao... Tiger Woods?

SteBO
06-08-2011, 01:03 PM
lmao... Tiger Woods?

no way. Not more than LeBron.

KingPosey
06-08-2011, 01:19 PM
I was thinking today about the NBA elites and it made me wonder... why is there such a souble standard today in regaurds to certain superstars?

When Kobe was losing, everyone said he needed help.
When Rose lost, everyone said he needs help.
Now that Dirk is losing, everyone is saying he needs help.

So why then is it okay for some great players to ask for help... but not others (cough Lebron cough)?

I have read person after person knock Lebron's competitiveness and will to win on this site... yet those same people have no problem with Kobe, Rose, Dirk, etc getting the help they need?

Lebron tried to win on his own for 7 years... and he finally figured out that you cannot win in the NBA on your own...so he moved on... and you all hate hom for it.

Please do not turn this into a discussion of the decision. In terms of the the TV show... it was a bad idea. FINE. But that has nothing to do with the ongoing sentiment around the country that Lebron is less of a player for getting help... even though getting help precisely the advice you give every other superstar...
Dirk is losing? What are you talking about? And he could use a legit 2nd scoring option.

And you think all Lebron did was ask for help lol?! No one is denying LBJ needed help, he obviously did or he would have won. Its just the manner in his actions that have brought out the super haters.

And people knock LBJ's competitive drive for 2 reasons. He disappears in some big games, has looked like he quit on his team in a playoff series, and haters love to dog him, so it gets absurdly analyzed.

And when Kobe did the same thing a few years ago in the playoffs, he got lit the **** up by the media and haters too.

I dont hate LBJ, I just dont like him. I dont deny he is special, and ONE of the best players in the league, not imo necessarily THE best. I just dont think he is "like-able". He is not really that great of a guy in some of the things he has said, and the WAY he has made some decisions.

I think a lot of that has to do with the dick riding the media started giving him as a sophomore in highschool, and the fact that between his "crew", and the way Ohio, and now Florida caters to his every whim. He probably hasnt been told "no" by a single person that is around him in his whole life since early in highschool, and finally all of that mounts up, and the haters come out spitting pure venom about the guy at every turn.

MagicHero3
06-08-2011, 01:35 PM
its actually a good thing since lakers/celtics have no problems stacking their teams with obscene amount of talent.

?obscene?

no, thats just stacking with talent

stacking with obscene talent is Wade, Lebron and Bosh on the same team all in their prime. THAT is obscene.

Kobe and Gasol on the downhill ride of their career is NOT obscene talent.

KG, Allen and Pierce were not all Olympic champs together at the same time, they all teamed up well after their prime.

why do you think the Heat are getting so much attention compared to the Celts or Lakers? bc its OBSCENE. lol

jockrider
06-08-2011, 01:49 PM
?obscene?

no, thats just stacking with talent

stacking with obscene talent is Wade, Lebron and Bosh on the same team all in their prime. THAT is obscene.

Kobe and Gasol on the downhill ride of their career is NOT obscene talent.

KG, Allen and Pierce were not all Olympic champs together at the same time, they all teamed up well after their prime.

why do you think the Heat are getting so much attention compared to the Celts or Lakers? bc its OBSCENE. lol

wow those teams had unfair amount of talent on their teams. well after their primes?? kg was arguably the best pf in the nba that year. and he was around the same age dwayne is now. pierce and allen were also close to the same age as wade too.

fadedmario
06-08-2011, 02:08 PM
Wade's star is shining brighter than Lebron's. Everyone is seeing it too. Is he better than Lebron? Probably not. But Legends are built on Finals performances and so far Lebron is failing. Even if the Heat win the title, "the King" will continue to get criticized. Is it fair? Who knows?

jockrider
06-08-2011, 02:13 PM
did anyone criticize wade in the bulls series? cause he was straight dirt in that series the amount of jealous hate for lebron is amazing. your either mad he didn't join your team or threatened he may be better than your superstar(kobe)

i don't really like lebron that much but i find it so dumb when people down play how good he is.

S.J.Basketball
06-08-2011, 02:26 PM
These threads annoy me. The OP is setting the standard of why we hate Lebron so that those of us that don't like Lebron will have to defend that specific reason when it's much more complex than that. Sorry OP, but you don't get to set the standard of why I don't like Lebron. I notice the OP also left out crucial reasons as to why people hate Lebron to begin with. Lebron created this hate all on his own. The fact that you have to scratch your head and even wonder why shows you don't really know what you're talking about and you probably are a huge fan of his. Fans tend to overlook massive character flaws that others can't stand.

My tip? Get over yourself and realize not everyone is going to like that douchebag.

MagicHero3
06-08-2011, 03:34 PM
wow those teams had unfair amount of talent on their teams. well after their primes?? kg was arguably the best pf in the nba that year. and he was around the same age dwayne is now. pierce and allen were also close to the same age as wade too.

lol you missed the point completely.

wade-lebron-bosh all OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALISTS at the SAME TIME which means they are all in their prime simultaneously.

were KG, Pierce and Allen ever WORLD caliber players at the same time? no.
did any of those guys get MVP two consecutive years along with a championship and a championship MVP? hheeellll no!

jockrider
06-08-2011, 03:40 PM
lol you missed the point completely.

wade-lebron-bosh all OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALISTS at the SAME TIME which means they are all in their prime simultaneously.

were KG, Pierce and Allen ever WORLD caliber players at the same time? no.
did any of those guys get MVP two consecutive years along with a championship and a championship MVP? hheeellll no!

wow your underrating those three guys. screw the same 2 teams bullying the league time for some fresh faces.

MagicHero3
06-08-2011, 03:51 PM
wow your underrating those three guys. screw the same 2 teams bullying the league time for some fresh faces.

thank you for not reading a word i said, quoting me and then responding. im not UNDERRATING the celtics "big 3", they were all world caliber players at one point, but not at the SAME TIME. They were still REALLY good when they teamed up. ok lets compare- lebron wade bosh vs garnett pierce and allen- hmmm which 3 are better?
lebron wade bosh vs gasol kobe and...uh...no just those 2.

jockrider
06-08-2011, 04:29 PM
thank you for not reading a word i said, quoting me and then responding. im not UNDERRATING the celtics "big 3", they were all world caliber players at one point, but not at the SAME TIME. They were still REALLY good when they teamed up. ok lets compare- lebron wade bosh vs garnett pierce and allen- hmmm which 3 are better?
lebron wade bosh vs gasol kobe and...uh...no just those 2.

defintely celtics big three when they first got together,

lakers also have surrounding players the heat have the big three than everyone else is scrubs.

come on if the lakers didn't steal gasol away from the grizz orlando would have a title by now they're the lakers they get what ever they want:facepalm: can't wait till they start rebuilding or should i say retooling.

nickdymez
06-08-2011, 04:33 PM
no way. Not more than LeBron.

Keep telling yourself that buddy