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View Full Version : What's so special about handchecking?



Darrell Russell
06-01-2011, 09:21 PM
I see people bring this up as a way to say players of the past are better than players from 00' and on, or to say past players would average ridiculous amounts of points.
So what is so special about handchecking?

KnicksR4Real
06-01-2011, 09:36 PM
its physical. intimidating.

FriedTofuz
06-01-2011, 09:37 PM
You should provide a link to a video ofhandchecking ,so everyone understand what you mean. I hear the commentators mention it, but dont know exactly what it is.

Hustlenomics
06-01-2011, 09:39 PM
it's big. It stops you from easily blowing by defenders like in todays game where you can pick up a cheap foul if you touch an opponent

delinquent4
06-01-2011, 09:41 PM
it makes its so easy to blow past defenders.... basically playing defense without touching the offensive player what so ever... pretty hard to do

beasted86
06-01-2011, 09:44 PM
Hand checking is when the defender is allowed to ward an offensive post player off by putting his hand, or more than likely their elbow into a players back.

By creating that extra distance, it takes away a step from the offensive post player, and gives the defender more time to react when the guy tries to make his move to score.

Just youtube or google it. There are plenty of videos on handchecking along with interviews from past players discussing it.

Darrell Russell
06-01-2011, 09:46 PM
its physical. intimidating.

So that means what exactly?

Darrell Russell
06-01-2011, 09:47 PM
it's big. It stops you from easily blowing by defenders like in todays game where you can pick up a cheap foul if you touch an opponent

You do know there were touch fouls then too, right?

imagesrdecievin
06-01-2011, 09:49 PM
What is so special about hand checking - is that when someone is really good at it - you can't tell exactly how much pressure they are exerting. While it may look like a defender is merely touching a player in all reality they can be applying a lot of force and stopping their ability to drive, switch directions, etc.

As someone who uses hand checking(in pickup ball) I can attest to the fact that it is incredibly effective and very difficult to detect.

Darrell Russell
06-01-2011, 09:52 PM
What is so special about hand checking - is that when someone is really good at it - you can't tell exactly how much pressure they are exerting. While it may look like a defender is merely touching a player in all reality they can be applying a lot of force and stopping their ability to drive, switch directions, etc.

As someone who uses hand checking(in pickup ball) I can attest to the fact that it is incredibly effective and very difficult to detect.

So by default that would mean players in the past would average 35+ during today's game?

SwaggaIke
06-01-2011, 09:53 PM
Watch Jordan defend in the 90s. He literally used to "steer" opponents by the waist like they were motor vehicles. THIS IS NOT A SHOT AT JORDAN. He was a master at handchecking.

WindyCitySox
06-01-2011, 09:57 PM
So by default that would mean players in the past would average 35+ during today's game?

no thats nonsense, but it made the game a lot more physical and a lot more difficult to score. If they brought hand-checking back today most players scoring averages would drop though, but not to 0 points a game...

Darrell Russell
06-01-2011, 09:57 PM
Watch Jordan defend in the 90s. He literally used to "steer" opponents by the waist like they were motor vehicles. THIS IS NOT A SHOT AT JORDAN. He was a master at handchecking.

Good defensively because he was allowed to foul and players weren't athletic enough to do anything about it.
Makes a lot of sense now seeing how the nba limited handchecking in 1994-95, which led to jordan getting embarrassed defensively by players like damon stoudamire

Darrell Russell
06-01-2011, 10:00 PM
no thats nonsense, but it made the game a lot more physical and a lot more difficult to score. If they brought hand-checking back today most players scoring averages would drop though, but not to 0 points a game...

You can't prove it would drop, and i can't prove it would go up or stay the same. But the game was more physical because players were less athletic. Less athleticism leads to making up for it with strength. Just because there was handchecking doesn't mean it was a lot more difficult to score, when the league averaged 105 ppg and stuff like that, playing run and gun.

WindyCitySox
06-01-2011, 10:07 PM
Good defensively because he was allowed to foul and players weren't athletic enough to do anything about it.
Makes a lot of sense now seeing how the nba limited handchecking in 1994-95, which led to jordan getting embarrassed defensively by players like damon stoudamire

It wasn't considered a foul when hand-checking was allowed. Everyone hand-checkd.

2nd all time in steals, 9 time all defensive team.. yea, how embarrassing.

Darrell Russell
06-01-2011, 10:13 PM
It wasn't considered a foul when hand-checking was allowed. Everyone hand-checkd.

2nd all time in steals, 9 time all defensive team.. yea, how embarrassing.

They still called the foul sometimes, that is a fact. It's weird, they say it was allowed and it was sometimes, but they still called the foul other times.
Steals isn't truly an accurate barometer of how great someone is on defense, nor are media awards, especially when it's a player who is completely media hyped out of this world. Mj was a great defensive player, but he got embarrassed after the nba changed handchecking in 1994-95.

beasted86
06-01-2011, 10:14 PM
You can't prove it would drop, and i can't prove it would go up or stay the same. But the game was more physical because players were less athletic. Less athleticism leads to making up for it with strength. Just because there was handchecking doesn't mean it was a lot more difficult to score, when the league averaged 105 ppg and stuff like that, playing run and gun.

You are talking about the 70s and 80s.

In the 90s the game slowed down, became a lot more physical, and was more defense oriented. It's almost a given that those players would have been more effective because every handcheck is a foul in today's rules. Basically those guys were putting up high points being fouled on every play.

But I agree with the mindset it's all in how the players adapt to the rule changes, and the styles change with each era. Back in the 90s players didn't flop as much and didn't try to draw offensive fouls like they do now... so it's a different dynamic in each time period. Who knows how the 90s would have been in more players were flopping. Who knows how the 2000s would be if they allowed handchecking. Nobody can say with definition how each era would adapt to those styles.

Sadds The Gr8
06-01-2011, 10:14 PM
it makes soooooo much of a difference. if you're slow laterally, then it helps so much.

WindyCitySox
06-01-2011, 10:18 PM
You can't prove it would drop, and i can't prove it would go up or stay the same. But the game was more physical because players were less athletic. Less athleticism leads to making up for it with strength. Just because there was handchecking doesn't mean it was a lot more difficult to score, when the league averaged 105 ppg and stuff like that, playing run and gun.

The rule was implemented BECAUSE THE LEAGUE WANTED MORE SCORING. Pretty much, getting rid of the hand-check allows more athletic wing players to have free reign. I don't think big men of the "hand-check" era would see their scoring change much, but would athletic wing players improve their scoring? No doubt in my mind.

BigCityofDreams
06-01-2011, 10:21 PM
This is a good discussion because I always thought about how different the game was with handchecking.

Darrell Russell
06-01-2011, 10:22 PM
You are talking about the 70s and 80s.

In the 90s the game slowed down, became a lot more physical, and was more defense oriented. It's almost a given that those players would have been more effective because every handcheck is a foul in today's rules. Basically those guys were putting up high points being fouled on every play.

But I agree with the mindset it's all in how the players adapt to the rule changes, and the styles change with each era. Back in the 90s players didn't flop as much and didn't try to draw offensive fouls like they do now... so it's a different dynamic in each time period. Who knows how the 90s would have been in more players were flopping. Who knows how the 2000s would be if they allowed handchecking. Nobody can say with definition how each era would adapt to those styles.

The league average for points in 1990-91 was 106.3
1991-92 was 105.3
1992-93 was 105.3.
So yea they were runnin and gunnin. The league average didn't get under 100 until the mid 90's, when more expansion teams came and diluted the talent.
Plus just because it were handchecking doesn't mean that it was utilized on every play, doesn't mean every defender was good at using it, doesn't mean they were good defensively at all.

WindyCitySox
06-01-2011, 10:24 PM
They still called the foul sometimes, that is a fact. It's weird, they say it was allowed and it was sometimes, but they still called the foul other times.
Steals isn't truly an accurate barometer of how great someone is on defense, nor are media awards, especially when it's a player who is completely media hyped out of this world. Mj was a great defensive player, but he got embarrassed after the nba changed handchecking in 1994-95.

I agree with you on this point, but you should realize that all perimeter defenders were getting "embarrassed" after the rule change, because the rule change gave free reign to perimeter players. MJs perimeter scoring improved during that time period too, no surprise.

Darrell Russell
06-01-2011, 10:24 PM
The rule was implemented BECAUSE THE LEAGUE WANTED MORE SCORING. Pretty much, getting rid of the hand-check allows more athletic wing players to have free reign. I don't think big men of the "hand-check" era would see their scoring change much, but would athletic wing players improve their scoring? No doubt in my mind.

So why did the league scoring go down as soon as the handchecking rule was changed in 1994-95? Seems counter-productive to your argument right?

John Walls Era
06-01-2011, 10:35 PM
Don't know if this counts. But I have a friend who would do this (kindof). He would stick both arms out and prevent you from driving past him. Hes sucks, but this stops people from driving for the layup. So I'm assuming arm checking would be as effective as this.

Sadds The Gr8
06-01-2011, 10:38 PM
Don't know if this counts. But I have a friend who would do this (kindof). He would stick both arms out and prevent you from driving past him. Hes sucks, but this stops everything. So I'm assuming arm checking would be as effective as this.

u mean sticking them out like a scarecrow? i hate ****ers that play like that.

that doesn't qualify as hand checking though.

Sadds The Gr8
06-01-2011, 10:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8rcwmEH0zM&feature=player_detailpage#t=37s

there's a vid for people who dunno what hand checking is

WindyCitySox
06-01-2011, 10:38 PM
So why did the league scoring go down as soon as the handchecking rule was changed in 1994-95? Seems counter-productive to your argument right?

Overall scoring may have gone down, but look at the play of the "exciting" perimeter players that the league wanted have increased production from.

It's not a coincidence that Ray Allen, Nash, Kobe, Iverson, Pierce... etc all saw increase in offensive statistics in 2005. Nash's shooting percentage went up something like 5% in 2005. Iverson's career looked like it was regressing, then magically in 2005 he averages 33 and 8.

While overall scoring may have decreased marginally, the production of perimeter players increased significantly.

MiamiWadeCounty
06-01-2011, 10:43 PM
Overall scoring may have gone down, but look at the play of the "exciting" perimeter players that the league wanted have increased production from.

It's not a coincidence that Ray Allen, Nash, Kobe, Iverson, Pierce... etc all saw increase in offensive statistics in 2005. Nash's shooting percentage went up something like 5% in 2005. Iverson's career looked like it was regressing, then magically in 2005 he averages 33 and 8.

While overall scoring may have decreased marginally, the production of perimeter players increased significantly.

I think the rule was added in 94-95 not 05.

TheHighLife
06-01-2011, 10:43 PM
I don't get why they let the big fouls go where someone gets molested and they call a foul for someone's hand invading a players personal bubble.

Darrell Russell
06-01-2011, 10:44 PM
Overall scoring may have gone down, but look at the play of the "exciting" perimeter players that the league wanted have increased production from.

It's not a coincidence that Ray Allen, Nash, Kobe, Iverson, Pierce... etc all saw increase in offensive statistics in 2005. Nash's shooting percentage went up something like 5% in 2005. Iverson's career looked like it was regressing, then magically in 2005 he averages 33 and 8.

While overall scoring may have decreased marginally, the production of perimeter players increased significantly.

You realize perimeter players were scoring a lot during the 80's and 90's too, right? Plus the perimeter players nowadays are just better offensively.

FriedTofuz
06-01-2011, 10:44 PM
Does an arm bar count as handchecking, like in the post ?

pd1dish
06-01-2011, 10:45 PM
this thread is funny

Sadds The Gr8
06-01-2011, 10:46 PM
I posted the vid of what handchecking is earlier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8rcwmEH0zM&feature=player_detailpage#t=37s

if helps defenders out a ton.

John Walls Era
06-01-2011, 10:50 PM
u mean sticking them out like a scarecrow? i hate ****ers that play like that.

that doesn't qualify as hand checking though.

Yeah. I knew it didn't count as hand checking. I was just wondering if it was just as annoying. I know what hand checking is, but its still used in low level competition because the refs are garbage.

ChiSox219
06-01-2011, 10:55 PM
So why did the league scoring go down as soon as the handchecking rule was changed in 1994-95? Seems counter-productive to your argument right?

You still were allowed to check the ball after 94, you just could not use your hand. Forearm wasnt outlawed until later when the NBA added the no charge line.

WindyCitySox
06-01-2011, 10:56 PM
You realize perimeter players were scoring a lot during the 80's and 90's too, right? Plus the perimeter players nowadays are just better offensively.

I grew up watching in the 80's and 90's, so yea, I know they were scoring a lot then too. I also know that their is a noticeable hike in offensive output by perimeter players since the rule change.

Overall perimeter play today is probably better. I attribute this to a combination of players simply being better, and playing in a system that tailors to their game-play (ie. no handchecking).

WindyCitySox
06-01-2011, 10:58 PM
pretty good article on the topic

http://newsok.com/since-hand-check-rule-change-nba-has-become-a-perimeter-players-league/article/3445220

WindyCitySox
06-01-2011, 11:03 PM
"Can you explain what went into the hand-check rule and break that down how it’s been successful thus far?

SJ: The hand check has always been a part of pro basketball. What we have done is interpret the hand check slightly different in that, if a defender has what I’ll refer to as a “stayed hand” on the defender, e.g. with a stiffened elbow, a foul on the defense would be called if it affects the offensive player's speed, rhythm or balance. It's been five years since we really began to interpret the hand check in this way, and we continue to focus on enforcement.
Three years ago, before the ’04-05 season, we also began to really interpret and enforce the forearm and body check, where by we had defenders either placing a hand or a forearm on an offensive player’s shoulder or hip in an effort to slow them down and give them a defensive advantage in terms of sliding in front of the offensive player. When we disallowed that – the use of the hand, the use of the forearm to the shoulder, the hip, the body – that in conjunction with the hand check interpretation started to give offensive players on the perimeter more offensive freedom."

http://www.nba.com/features/stujackson_bogpresentation_070503.html

Looks like changes were already in the works a few years prior to partially banning the hand-check.

LOOTERX9
06-01-2011, 11:10 PM
I hate the no hand checking rule cause it slows the game down when the refs keep calling these damn touch fouls. Stern needs to be kicked in the balls

Darrell Russell
06-01-2011, 11:12 PM
I hate the no hand checking rule cause it slows the game down when the refs keep calling these damn touch fouls. Stern needs to be kicked in the balls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRR3Jx8RvoI

lol first play guess what it is ? A touch foul

Law25
06-01-2011, 11:19 PM
I dont think players than would have a scoring increase in todays game i think it would all still be the same. Media favorites would still get the calls like than but no greater offensive output i thimk. I mean Kobe at 19 dropped 33 in an half with minimal freethrows. Players are bigger, stronger, and more athletic now and zoneing them is the best way to stop them. Yea you cant grab them to slow them done but you can place more bodies in their path.

Bishnoff
06-01-2011, 11:25 PM
I see people bring this up as a way to say players of the past are better than players from 00' and on, or to say past players would average ridiculous amounts of points.
So what is so special about handchecking?

You know where the player you are guarding will go the instant they start to move by means of physical feedback (when they are facing away from the basket), and you can prevent the player you are guarding from gaining advantage or position by obstructing their path (when they are facing the basket).

Believe me, hand checking makes individual defending a lot easier.

Rentzias
06-02-2011, 09:11 AM
They still called the foul sometimes, that is a fact. It's weird, they say it was allowed and it was sometimes, but they still called the foul other times.
Steals isn't truly an accurate barometer of how great someone is on defense, nor are media awards, especially when it's a player who is completely media hyped out of this world. Mj was a great defensive player, but he got embarrassed after the nba changed handchecking in 1994-95.
It's a major rule change, and they started applying it at all levels. The handcheck rule changed while I was playing high school ball, and it significantly changed the way I could defend and the way I attacked on offense.
It's like how the Steelers' Cover Two Steel Curtain defense dominated because CBs were allowed to manhandle WRs past five yards. The rules changed, and that defense was toned down significantly and offense went up. Likewise, you take away the ability to manhandle an offensive player, there will be an adjustment period, but a single year shouldn't define a player's overall body of work.

Darrell Russell
06-02-2011, 09:32 AM
It's a major rule change, and they started applying it at all levels. The handcheck rule changed while I was playing high school ball, and it significantly changed the way I could defend and the way I attacked on offense.


It means it made you a better defender since you couldn't foul consistently


It's like how the Steelers' Cover Two Steel Curtain defense dominated because CBs were allowed to manhandle WRs past five yards.

I wouldn't compare being able to knock someone on their *** to being able to hold your forearm in place on someone's back in the post


The rules changed, and that defense was toned down significantly and offense went up. Likewise, you take away the ability to manhandle an offensive player, there will be an adjustment period, but a single year shouldn't define a player's overall body of work.
A single year? If you're talking about jordan, he got embarrassed ever year defensively after 1994-95, and it's no mystery why.

BigCityofDreams
06-02-2011, 09:45 AM
"It means it made you a better defender since you couldn't foul consistently"

I would agree with that because you could no longer use the handcheck as a crutch. Not sure if crutch is the right word to use but you get the drift.

Rentzias
06-02-2011, 09:59 AM
A single year? If you're talking about jordan, he got embarrassed ever year defensively after 1994-95, and it's no mystery why.
3 All-NBA Defensive 1st Teams after that year beg to differ.


I wouldn't compare being able to knock someone on their *** to being able to hold your forearm in place on someone's back in the post
That's not what the Cover 2 CB manhandling was. It's the same concept, you funnel and move your man toward the area you want to control on the field. They weren't knocking down receivers, they were funneling them toward the MLBs and passing on coverage.


It means it made you a better defender since you couldn't foul consistently
I don't disagree, it made me play more fundamental defense, aka with my feet, but that's not to say it was 1) easier to defend with the handcheck and therefore 2) harder to play against a handcheck.

Darrell Russell
06-02-2011, 10:05 AM
3 All-NBA Defensive 1st Teams after that year beg to differ.


Using a media award does not measure one's defense, especially a company man like jordan who the media loved because he wasn't threatening like black superstars before him. Plus look at kobe being 1st team all defense this year, we all know that is ridiculous.

That's not what the Cover 2 CB manhandling was. It's the same concept, you funnel and move your man toward the area you want to control on the field. They weren't knocking down receivers, they were funneling them toward the MLBs and passing on coverage.


And they were also knocking them down, just like ty law was manhandling marvin harrison.


I don't disagree, it made me play more fundamental defense, aka with my feet, but that's not to say it was 1) easier to defend with the handcheck and therefore 2) harder to play against a handcheck.

word

BaddNewz
06-02-2011, 10:21 AM
It gives the defender the ability to slow your progress to the basket...its significant because the offensive player has to deal with contact without a foul being called...two hand handchecking is a foul automatically I think

Darrell Russell
06-02-2011, 10:22 AM
It gives the defender the ability to slow your progress to the basket...its significant because the offensive player has to deal with contact without a foul being called..

Misconception, they still called fouls on handchecking, it was inconsistent.

Mile High Champ
06-02-2011, 10:24 AM
Oh how I miss the days of old when players were actually allowed to play defense without being called for a foul. The NBA really needs to get back to the days of old and allow some tough and physical man on man defense. The game has certainly gone soft these last 10 years.

Darrell Russell
06-02-2011, 10:26 AM
Oh how I miss the days of old when players were actually allowed to play defense without being called for a foul. The NBA really needs to get back to the days of old and allow some tough and physical man on man defense. The game has certainly gone soft these last 10 years.

Same calls getting called now were called then

Rentzias
06-02-2011, 10:41 AM
I think you have a misconception of what and when the handcheck is and is applied and what its effect is, and I hate to use the "if you played, you know" type of explanation in hopes that you played the game. If you didn't, you can try it out and see the difference. It's like flag football vs regular football.

Darrell Russell
06-02-2011, 10:46 AM
I think you have a misconception of what and when the handcheck is and is applied and what its effect is, and I hate to use the "if you played, you know" type of explanation in hopes that you played the game. If you didn't, you can try it out and see the difference. It's like flag football vs regular football.

Yea you can't use that excuse since i have played. If you've played street ball and organized basketball, you will know the difference.

tr3ymill3r
06-02-2011, 10:47 AM
The easiest way to explain it is find someone who you can play with for a second. Have them dribble around and you place one hand on their hip. If your hand is strong enough you can actually dictate where they go and you can feel which way they are going before they actually go that way. On defense they tell you to look at the players waist because their waist will open up or point in the direction that they are going.

JordansBulls
06-02-2011, 10:52 AM
Are you blaming Stern for the tough style of play (especially in the 90's), or for gaying up the league starting from 2004-05 onwards?

I certainly don't mind Stern trying to clean things up, but when they come right out and implement rules designed to allow perimeter players to do whatever they want with their "no touch" policy (which leads to an enormous amount of free throws and little defense), then that kind of sucks for teams that actually want to play defense. The only team that has been able to effectively contain these perimeter stars since the rule changes (consistently) are the Spurs and the Celtics.
Here's a good article that talks about how coaches were trying to transition from a contact league to the new "no touch" league that we see today:


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_15_230/ai_n26829194/?tag=content;col1





Referees have been ordered to emphasize what often is called "the no-touching rule." As the league continues its battle to keep scoring up and thuggery down, it is focusing on perimeter contact as never before.

Though team scoring is holding steady, all those trips to the line have resulted in higher averages for players at the top of the scoring charts. For the first time in 24 seasons, three players--Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson and LeBron James--are likely to average more than 30.0 points for the season. Two years ago, there wasn't a single 30-point scorer. Entering the week, there had been 95 performances of 40 points or more, compared with 67 last season and 41 two seasons ago.

Indeed, the league has created a statistical whirlwind, but there has been a price. The ebb and flow of an 82-game season has added a bit too much ebb, with the continuous whistles creating points for players who are more than capable of creating them for themselves. The aesthetics that result from increased scoring are being negated by all the whistles.

The league's stance is this is nothing new, at least this season. "It's actually been in effect for two years." says NBA senior vice president Stu Jackson. "It was really an outgrowth of the hand check. What evolved is players originally used the hand check in an effort to deter the offensive player or reroute him. And then we saw a real influx of body checks by players in an effort to reroute the offensive player off his path."

On one hand, the no-touch policy has coaches giving the ball to their slashers, which clears the court for either dynamic dunks or frequent free throws. On the other, those same coaches are at their wits' end trying to orchestrate an effective defense.

It is an officiating style that would have turned the smart folks who employed the Jordan Rules into Jordan's fools.

"There is so much stuff being called out on the perimeter," Knicks coach Larry Brown says. "I can't imagine what Michael would have gotten with the hand-check rules the way they're calling it now."

Jordan's former running partner is not so sure he could have reached his own level of success under the current rules. "I'm glad I'm not playing now," Scottie Pippen says. "I wouldn't be a good defensive player."

Even Rothstein, now a Heat assistant coach, is conflicted. Like many who were on Chuck Daly's Pistons staffs in the late '80s, he is consumed with the science of NBA defense. He sees little reason for any player to shoot 20 or 25 free throws in a game. But he appreciates that offense sells and that it's what commissioner David Stern wants and what fans expect in this video-driven era of individual theatrics.

"I understand the nature of the business and who we are and what we are," Rothstein says. "Do I like it? No. But it doesn't matter if 1 like it. There are still very good defenders in this league who do a very good job, who have adjusted to the rules. It used to be you'd get a forearm on and it gave you certain leverage. So you've got to move your feet better. There's no way you can be as good under the current rules."

Rothstein's boss says it is undeniable that the game has changed for today's offensive stars.

"I think guys are just warming up to the whole thing," Heat coach Pat Riley says. "Everybody's starting to realize, 'Hey, I can get a ton here.' So I think this year has really been the first year where the rule is starting to have an impact. We're going to have a 200-point game by a team pretty soon."

Mile High Champ
06-02-2011, 10:52 AM
Same calls getting called now were called then

Ok but real defense is dead. We protect the offensive player way too much.

Darrell Russell
06-02-2011, 10:54 AM
Ok but real defense is dead. We protect the offensive player way too much.

All opinion. Players are much more athletic and stronger nowadays, they protect the players, not just offensive players.

Rentzias
06-02-2011, 11:55 AM
All opinion. Players are much more athletic and stronger nowadays, they protect the players, not just offensive players.
How are they protecting the defensive player now?


Yea you can't use that excuse since i have played. If you've played street ball and organized basketball, you will know the difference.
This almost proves my point. Watch any of the Rucker Park videos and see what Ron Artest has to say about the toughness of allowing rough play. It's tougher with a reluctant whistle.


The easiest way to explain it is find someone who you can play with for a second. Have them dribble around and you place one hand on their hip. If your hand is strong enough you can actually dictate where they go and you can feel which way they are going before they actually go that way. On defense they tell you to look at the players waist because their waist will open up or point in the direction that they are going.
This.

BaddNewz
06-02-2011, 12:45 PM
Misconception, they still called fouls on handchecking, it was inconsistent.

Like travels nowadays very inconsistent...i agree

MrX27
06-02-2011, 12:59 PM
You can't prove it would drop, and i can't prove it would go up or stay the same. But the game was more physical because players were less athletic. Less athleticism leads to making up for it with strength. Just because there was handchecking doesn't mean it was a lot more difficult to score, when the league averaged 105 ppg and stuff like that, playing run and gun.

Not true.

Handchecking was a defensive players best weapon, because it allowed them to play more physically.

To prove it is simple:
Guard someone dribbling the ball and have them put their back to you while dribbling.
1st- put your hand on their back applying a bit of pressure to create distance and limit their movement.
2nd- try to do the same thing, but instead of your hand in their back, using only your forearm.

The NBA, just like the NFL, would rather promote high scoring games than low scoring defensive battles, handchecking or rather the lack thereof has made it that much more easier to increase scoring.

WindyCitySox
06-03-2011, 12:08 AM
A single year? If you're talking about jordan, he got embarrassed ever year defensively after 1994-95, and it's no mystery why.

Because it was his 1st year back in basketball after a 2 year hiatus and he was 33?

You keep mentioning that he got "embarrassed." I'm sure there were plays here and there that he got schooled by younger guys, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was one of the greatest defenders of all time.

Your also implying that his defense regressed as a result of the rule change. By admitting that it became harder to defend, your also saying that it became easier to score.

Il Mago50
06-03-2011, 12:15 AM
Are you serious??? Handchecking allows you to be waaaaaay more physical on the guy you're guarding, preventing him blowing by you with simply speed and makes scoring that much harder.

The league is all about flashiness and point-totals these days so we all know why the rule was put into place. Imagine what the scores of the Bulls-Heat series would've been with Chicago's defense on top of being able to handcheck, it would be like 71-65 every game versus the 85-90 range that we saw.

WindyCitySox
06-03-2011, 12:27 AM
You can't prove it would drop, and i can't prove it would go up or stay the same. But the game was more physical because players were less athletic. Less athleticism leads to making up for it with strength. Just because there was handchecking doesn't mean it was a lot more difficult to score, when the league averaged 105 ppg and stuff like that, playing run and gun.

Instead of comparing between eras, lets isolate your original question regarding "what is so special about hand checking." Hand-checking is a tool that serves to benefit the defensive player.

Lets look at it this way. If hand-checking were allowed again next year, or even tomorrow, would perimeter players be likely to sustain their current offensive production? There is no real way to prove this unless the rule reverts back, but its really common sense.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-03-2011, 03:02 AM
Instead of comparing between eras, lets isolate your original question regarding "what is so special about hand checking." Hand-checking is a tool that serves to benefit the defensive player.

Lets look at it this way. If hand-checking were allowed again next year, or even tomorrow, would perimeter players be likely to sustain their current offensive production? There is no real way to prove this unless the rule reverts back, but its really common sense.
But all rules have to revert for it to be fair. The three point line has to be brought in by a couple feet, and no more zone, box and one defenses. If I'm Lebron, Ill take a clear out ISO on one side of the court, with only one defender being really close to me, and only one guy between me and the basket, over the defense loading the strong side of the court, trying to force me to swing it to the week side. A supreme athlete can get by an arm. It's harder to break someone off the dribble and then get by the second defender who is waiting right behind him. I love when guys come up close to me to try and use a hand, it makes it that much easier to put a shoulder down and drive to the open hole.

mustaine
06-03-2011, 10:12 AM
it's big. It stops you from easily blowing by defenders like in todays game where you can pick up a cheap foul if you touch an opponent

This, when you defend and use hand-checking it is so much easier to stay with a player. You can pretty much use your hand to stay closer to the offensive player and thus making it more difficult to shoot jumpers and you can also avoid players blowing by you. It also allows you to be much more physical with players.