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View Full Version : Kareem writes open letter to Pippen



kArSoN RyDaH
05-31-2011, 02:33 PM
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/05/31/kareem-writes-open-letter-to-pippen-about-lebron-jordan/


Wow!

Baller1
05-31-2011, 02:35 PM
Kareem doesn't use advanced statistics...

;)

ManRam
05-31-2011, 02:37 PM
Jordan was better than the players before him, in my opinion. I probably fall into the hole he's saying Scottie falls into, especially since I hardly saw any of them play, but that's my opinion.

I think dialog like this is great though. Keeps people on their toes.

However, points in a single game as proof is laughable IMO.

We need to also stop acting like Pippen said LeBron "will be" or "is" the best ever. He didn't. All he said is that he has a chance, and he probably does have an outside shot.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 02:38 PM
Dear Kareem,

Wilt played in an era that had 130 possessions (compared to 92) per game. Wilt also played 47.2 mpg over his career. Russell played on a team with more support than anyone has ever seen, in a league with minimal teams to compete against.

I have always thought Kareeem was one of the most egotistical jerks pro sports has ever seen. He was a great player, but you won't find many who have interacted with him that don't agree the man was a complete tool.

Baller1
05-31-2011, 02:40 PM
Dear Kareem,

Wilt played in an era that had 130 possessions (compared to 92) per game. Wilt also played 47.2 mpg over his career. Russell played on a team with more support than anyone has ever seen, in a league with minimal teams to compete against.

I have always thought Kareeem was one of the most egotistical jerks pro sports has ever seen. He was a great player, but you won't find many who have interacted with him that don't agree the man was a complete tool.

Agreed. Plus, all the support he used in refutation to Pippen's comments were so generic and simple.

Ebbs
05-31-2011, 02:40 PM
blunt.

Lol, poor Pippen. Kareem is right about one thing though Wilt is the GOAT. Jordan and him are neck and neck.

bringinwood
05-31-2011, 02:41 PM
Dear Kareem,

Wilt played in an era that had 130 possessions (compared to 92) per game. Wilt also played 47.2 mpg over his career. Russell played on a team with more support than anyone has ever seen, in a league with minimal teams to compete against.
I have always thought Kareeem was one of the most egotistical jerks pro sports has ever seen. He was a great player, but you won't find many who have interacted with him that don't agree the man was a complete tool.

Didn't he also play in a watered down playoff structure ???

Wasn't it a conference final and an NBA final or something ******** like that ???

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 02:43 PM
LeBron James adjusted stats for the pace back then, assuming he also played 47.2 mpg:

50.8 ppg
14.2 rpg
13.3 apg

and that is in a "down year", for per game numbers for LeBron.

Baller1
05-31-2011, 02:45 PM
LeBron James adjusted stats for the pace back then, assuming he also played 47.2 mpg:

50.8 ppg
14.2 rpg
13.3 apg

and that is in a "down year", for per game numbers for LeBron.

:laugh: :laugh: holy ****.

John Walls Era
05-31-2011, 02:46 PM
I kind of agree. But I still think Russel is better than Wilt (Bill Simmons swayed me).

bringinwood
05-31-2011, 02:48 PM
LeBron James adjusted stats for the pace back then, assuming he also played 47.2 mpg:

50.8 ppg
14.2 rpg
13.3 apg

and that is in a "down year", for per game numbers for LeBron.

H :o l y

$h!+


Gotta think LeBron would be even more dominate back then too...

Competition and talent levels are much much better this day in age...

jneises21
05-31-2011, 02:48 PM
Definitely not what I was expecting

Chi StateOfMind
05-31-2011, 02:49 PM
LeBron James adjusted stats for the pace back then, assuming he also played 47.2 mpg:

50.8 ppg
14.2 rpg
13.3 apg

and that is in a "down year", for per game numbers for LeBron.

Damn, thats insane.

I still would say MJ is the best of all-time.

Sly Guy
05-31-2011, 02:49 PM
he's right. He just put Pippen, and Jordan in their place. Stats, rings, doesn't matter.....There are guys out with better number in both. The best of a generation doesn't make the best of all time.....we as fas can sit here and debate as much as we want, but we'll only end up going in circles cuz the game changes as much as the players do.

MagicHero3
05-31-2011, 02:50 PM
woooooo kareem is a Lebron hater!

kArSoN RyDaH
05-31-2011, 02:51 PM
The minimal teams argument carries no merit. Those teams had better players on these teams because their wasn't that many teams to have the talent spread around to.


I do think Kareem has a point though. I like it. It's the first time I've heard someone call out MJ being the best ever.

J4KOP99
05-31-2011, 02:52 PM
It never occurred to me that Kareem could become any more pompous or arrogant than he already is...

What a *******. Love the player, hate the man.

kArSoN RyDaH
05-31-2011, 02:52 PM
Inflate everyone's if thats the case and then compare him. Lebron would never average 50ppg ever!!!!

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 02:52 PM
Damn, thats insane.

I still would say MJ is the best of all-time.

just for fun, I ran MJ's best all around per game year, same rules. 130 possession and game league, and 47.2 mpg

51.4 ppg
12.5 rpg
12.5 apg

the year he averaged 37.1, it equates to averagin 58.96 ppg back then.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 02:53 PM
Inflate everyone's if thats the case and then compare him. Lebron would never average 50ppg ever!!!!

And Wilt would never have sniffed 37 a night in today's game.

The pace back then was a track meet, and Wilt NEVER came out of the game dude.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 02:54 PM
The minimal teams argument carries no merit. Those teams had better players on these teams because their wasn't that many teams to have the talent spread around to.


I do think Kareem has a point though. I like it. It's the first time I've heard someone call out MJ being the best ever.

I have actually heard a few old timers call out Russell and Wilt as well. Same reason my dad still think Larry Bird is the best of all time. Some can't come to grips that better players have come along since their idol played..

Confusious
05-31-2011, 02:55 PM
Well, at least Kareem isn't still feeling blighted against the Lakers management.

kArSoN RyDaH
05-31-2011, 02:55 PM
How can you say that he would never score 37 a game? This is why O hate what ifs. Its stupid. To say Lebron would have scores 50ppg is ridiculous.

JordansBulls
05-31-2011, 02:56 PM
Kareem, here is something for you to consider in the playoffs

Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
5. Shaq = 12
6. Hakeem = 11
Kobe = 11
Iverson = 10
9. Lebron = 9


Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History
MJ - 109
Kobe - 81
Kareem - 75
West -74
Baylor - 60


Wilt played more playoff games than West and Baylor and yet Baylor both have more 30+ point games than Wilt. Not only that but Wilt only has 13 games of 40+ in the playoffs when West has more.


And Kareem maybe you should look at this as well:

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91
Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.
The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined.

Playoffs

Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)
-Highest PER Efficiency Playoffs: 28.59





Most 50-point games (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/A_list_of_the_Most_50_point_games_in_NBA_history)
Wilt - 105
MJ - 39
Kobe - 24
Baylor - 14
Barry - 13
Iverson - 11
King - 8
Kareem - 8
LeBron - 8
...
Petit - 6
Bird - 5
West - 4
McGrady - 4
McAdoo - 4
K. Malone - 4
Shaq 3


[/b]
Notable playoff games
63 - Jordan (2 OT)
61 - Baylor (NBA FInals)
56 - Wilt
56 - Jordan
55 - Jordan (3x)
55 - Barry
54 - Jordan (v 93 Knicks)
53 - West (NBA Finals)
53 - Wilt
52 - West
50 - Jordan
50 - McAdoo
50 - Petit (NBA FInals)
50 - Kobe (OT)
50 - K. Malone
49 - Kobe
49 - LeBron
49 - Hakeem
48 - Dr. J (ABA Finals)
48 - Kobe
48 - LeBron
47 - Jordan
47 - LeBron
46 - Jordan
46 - Shaq (twice)
46 - Wade
46 - Hakeem
46 - King (twice)
46 - Gervin
46 - Kareem

--

Pts/75 Possessions
34.9 - Jordan 87 (+2.4 TS%)
34.2 - Kobe 06 (+2.4)
32.7 - Jordan 88 (+6.5%)
32.3 - Jordan 93 (+2.8%)
32.1 - Jordan 90 (6.9%)
32.1 - Jordan 91 (7.1%)
31.9 - Jordan 96 (5.8%)
31.8 - Gervin 82 (2.4%)
31.7 - King 85 (4.2%)
31.5 - McGrady 03 (4.5%)
31.4 - Wade 09 (3.0%)
31.2 - Jordan 97 (3.1%)
30.6 - LeBron 09 (4.7%)
30.5 - K. Malone 90 (8.9%)
30.3 - Wilkins (-0.4%)
30.0 - Jordan 89 (7.7%)

Other Notables (Under 30 pts/75 - numbers rounded up)...
30.0 - LeBron 10 (6.1%)
30.0 - Shaq 98 (6.3%)
30.0 - Shaq 95 (4.5%)
30.0 - K. Malone 97 (6.4%)
29.8 - Kobe 07 (3.9%)
29.6 - LeBron 08 (2.8%)
29.6 - LeBron 06 (3.3%)
29.4 - Wade 10
29.1 - K. Malone 98 (7.3%)
28.9 - Gervin 80 (5.6%)
28.7 - Shaq 00 (5.5%)
28.3 - Kobe 09 (1.7%)
28.2 - Bird 88 (7.0%)28.1 - Kobe 03 (3.7%)
28.1 - Wilt 62 (5.7%)
27.7 - Wade 06 (4.2%)
27.6 - King 84 (7.6%)
26.8 - Hakeem 95 (3.4%)
26.7 - McAdoo 75 (6.7%)
26.0 - Dr. J 80 (3.7%)
25.4 - Kareem 72 (9.9%)
25.3 - Barry 75 (0.7%)
24.7 - Baylor 62 (1.3%)
23.9 - Thompson (6.3%)
23.4 - West 65 (9.3%)

PLAYOFFS (Min 2 series, since 1980 only)
35.7 - James 09 (7.4%)
34.7 - Jordan 93 (7.1%)
33.9 - Jordan 90 (5.0%)
33.4 - Jordan 98 (1.6%)
33.4 - Jordan 92 (2.7%)
33.0 - Jordan 88 (5.9%)
32.6 - Jordan 89 (6.2%)
32.6 - Shaq 98 (7.5%)
32.0 - Gervin 82
31.8 - King 84 (8.0%)
31.4 - Jordan 91 (5.3%)
31.3 - Jordan 96 (2.6%)
31.0 - Jordan 97 (-1.1%)
30.9 - Jordan 95 (0.6%)
30.8 - Shaq 97 (1.7%)
30.5 - Hakeem 95 (0.9%)
30.4 - Wlikins 88 (-1.2%)

Notable Single Series Pts/75 (since 1977)
35.7 - Jordan 86 (4.0%) v Bos
34.9 - Hakeem 88 (10.2%) v Dal
32.2 - Kobe 10 v Pho
32.1 - Shaq 00 v Ind
31.8 - Wade 06 v Dal
31.2 - Wade 10 (10.7%) v Bos
31.2 - Wade 09 (2.1%) v Atl
29.5 - McGrady 03 v Det
27.4 - McAdoo 75 v Was

Others
28.3 - Kareem 77
27.8 - K. Malone 98
24.2 - Bird 84
23.2 - Thompson 78



http://elgee35.wordpress.com/2011/01/28/top-scoring-rate-seasons-in-nba-history/


Unfortunately, Basketball-Reference doesn’t have a pace-adjusted scoring metric. I normalize most of my stats to an estimated 75 possessions played, which for points produces a “scoring rate,” per se. For instance, Wilt Chamberlain averaged over 50 points per game in 1962. But he played more than 130 possessions a game using the simple method of pace estimation. That comes out to about 28.1 pts/75, not enough to make the cut here.

Up to that point in NBA history, Chamberlain’s number was the highest scoring rate. Individual players just didn’t score as much — teams were more balanced before expansion and the advent of the 3-point line. So Wilt’s season did stand out in its time. For comparison, some other notable pre-1980 players and their highest career mark:

Bob McAdoo 26.7 in 1975.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 25.4 in 1972.
Rick Barry 25.3 in 1975.
Tiny Archibald 25.0 in 1973.
Elgin Baylor, 24.7 in 1962.
Jerry West 23.4 in 1965.
Oscar Robertson 21.5 in 1968.
Listed below are the top scoring rate seasons in NBA history, measured in points scored per 75 possessions. “Rel TS%” is True Shooting% (TS%) relative to the league average. For example, if league average is 50% TS, and a player boasted a TS% of 53%, he would have a Rel TS% of 3%.

Regular Season

http://elgee35.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/top-scoring-rates-regular-season.jpg?w=353&h=648


Yes, Michael Jordan owns seven of the eight best normalized scoring seasons ever. Not too shabby. Two other names that might surprise people are LeBron James and Karl Malone. Malone has three top-30 seasons, all at ridiculous shooting efficiency. James was a scoring machine before winning his first MVP, and holds four top-30 seasons.

What about playoff rates? Let’s only consider players who have played in at least two postseason series in a given playoff. If we do that, we get the following select club over 30 pts/75:

Playoffs (minimum 2 series played)

http://elgee35.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/top-playoff-scoring-rates1.jpg?w=348&h=367

Again, MJ occupies more than half of the list, with LeBron’s 2009 epic playoff run topping the list. Some notable single-series performances that did not qualify: Jordan vs. Boston in 1986 (35.7 pts/75), Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Dallas in 1988 (34.9) and Dwyane Wade in 2009 (vs. Atlanta) and 2010 (vs. Boston) posted 31.2 pts/75 in both series.

The big Chicken and Egg question here: Are top-end scorers better than they were in the past, or have changes in the game simply facilitated more individual dominance?

Baller1
05-31-2011, 02:57 PM
How can you say that he would never score 37 a game? This is why O hate what ifs. Its stupid. To say Lebron would have scores 50ppg is ridiculous.

Lebron's physical gifts are unmatched even in modern times; now, imagine those same physical gifts back in the day.

J4KOP99
05-31-2011, 02:57 PM
And Wilt would never have sniffed 37 a night in today's game.

How can you argue that, though? With today's weight training and overall training knowledge, Wilt would be a ****ing monster in today's game. Shaq averaged right around 30(a little less) for a few years... No doubt in my mind Wilt could at least get there. And don't tell me he wouldn't train hard because Bill Simmons has said he had a **** attitude.

These arguments are pointless though. Stats do tell a lot but there's a point where you need to actually see the guys play in different situations... and we all know that is not possible.

beasted86
05-31-2011, 02:57 PM
Um, duh.

I didn't respond to or even open the "Pippen says" thread, but I figured everyone knew Wilt was the greatest scorer ever.

As far as best player ever, I still think that's Jordan, and it isn't changing soon.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 02:58 PM
How can you say that he would never score 37 a game? This is why O hate what ifs. Its stupid. To say Lebron would have scores 50ppg is ridiculous.

and how can you say LeBron wouldn't have scored 50 a night with the same parameters Wilt played under?

Do you understand there were nearly 40 more possessions a game back then? Do you understand Wilt never sat?

haggis
05-31-2011, 02:58 PM
hahha JB pulling out the ol' cut and paste trick again

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 02:59 PM
How can you argue that, though? With today's weight training and overall training knowledge, Wilt would be a ****ing monster in today's game. Shaq averaged right around 30(a little less) for a few years... No doubt in my mind Wilt could at least get there. And don't tell me he wouldn't train hard because Bill Simmons has said he had a **** attitude.

These arguments are pointless though. Stats do tell a lot but there's a point where you need to actually see the guys play in different situations... and we all know that is not possible.

Maybe I should have added a smiley face?

My point is, the great, and I mean truly great, scorers in today's game would have average tons more PPG back then.

DMasta718
05-31-2011, 02:59 PM
Seeing how weak the Center position is these days, Wilt would get his.

Besides, I don't like comparing todays game to a era that happened 40+ years ago. Too different.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 03:00 PM
and JB with the bomb.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 03:02 PM
Can we please stop with this and get back to bashing LeBron?

Baller1
05-31-2011, 03:03 PM
Can we please stop with this and get back to bashing LeBron?

:laugh: right?!

J4KOP99
05-31-2011, 03:04 PM
Lebron's physical gifts are unmatched even in modern times; now, imagine those same physical gifts back in the day.

Another completely ridiculous argument. You have to remember that none of these guys in the 80's or before knew much about weight training or had the current tools the athletes of today have.

Also, speaking on the past, like you did... when you clearly were not old enough (i'm guessing about 1% of PSD posters were old enough to see Russell and Wilt actually play) only hurts your argument.

Baller1
05-31-2011, 03:07 PM
Another completely ridiculous argument. You have to remember that none of these guys in the 80's or before knew much about weight training or had the current tools the athletes of today have.

Also, speaking on the past, like you did... when you clearly were not old enough (i'm guessing about 1% of PSD posters were old enough to see Russell and Wilt actually play) only hurts your argument.

So because I didn't see Wilt and Russell play, I can't see that Lebron has clear physical advantages over them? That's completely illogical.

Only Dwight Howard can compare to Lebron in terms of natural physical gifts, and no one of the past can claim these gifts.

Never have we seen a 6'8", 280 pound man run and jump the way Lebron does with the strength he possesses to boot.

AddiX
05-31-2011, 03:07 PM
I have no problem With anyone who puts wilt, mj, or Russell as the best.

But putting bron anywhere near that convo is fking crazy.

Raoul Duke
05-31-2011, 03:10 PM
So because I didn't see Wilt and Russell play, I can't see that Lebron has clear physical advantages over them? That's completely illogical.

Only Dwight Howard can compare to Lebron in terms of natural physical gifts, and no one of the past can claim these gifts.

Never have we seen a 6'8", 280 pound man run and jump the way Lebron does with the strength he possesses to boot.

Yeah, but Lebron had the opportunity to build his game on the foundations that the great players before him layed down. It's impossible to compare him to someone like Wilt or Russell because the game was SO different back then. It's like comparing baseball players in the 1950's to guys that play now and have dieticians and strength trainers and steroids and massage therapists and state of the art training facilities and private jets and steroids and highly trained medical staffs and steroids.

kArSoN RyDaH
05-31-2011, 03:12 PM
What would Kobe's number be in Wilt's era?


Yeah posssessions I get it. But that's assuming he maintains his level of play he plays with for 30+ mins when it is adjusted for pace.

bosox3431
05-31-2011, 03:13 PM
I want to know how this helps Kareems argument, INO it hurts it.


MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams….

More players, more team, makes it harder to win scoring titles and championships.

topdog
05-31-2011, 03:14 PM
I'm not a fan of calling guys the GOAT and whatnot because there is too much speculation in making such considerations and people are either prone to hailing the pat as sme glory days or asserting the ascension of the new generation.

This has become a wings league with less physicality allowed out on the perimeter and more fouls favoring the agressor on drives to the basket. I'm not going to debate who the best ever is (it is an impossibility) however I appreciate that Kareem brings up some of the great big men our current NBA so dearly lacks.

PraiseJesus
05-31-2011, 03:15 PM
Pippen got owned

topdog
05-31-2011, 03:17 PM
I want to know how this helps Kareems argument, INO it hurts it.



More players, more team, makes it harder to win scoring titles and championships.

I was wondering that myself, but I'm thinking his logic is the contraction logic that if there are fewer teams, there is a greater concentation of really good players on each of those teams i.e everyone is the HEAT, Celtics, ect. in their primes.

MiamiWadeCounty
05-31-2011, 03:17 PM
I want to know how this helps Kareems argument, INO it hurts it.



More players, more team, makes it harder to win scoring titles and championships.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Maybe he was trying to show that Wilt's opponents played him many more times and still could not stop him or all the teams had talent and he was going against stacked teams every night. I am still not sure what Kareem was getting at exactly, but in my opinion it certainly hurt his argument more than it helped.

kArSoN RyDaH
05-31-2011, 03:22 PM
More players , more teams, less concentrated talent, more talent spread out. It goes both ways.

mike_noodles
05-31-2011, 03:23 PM
That letter is a joke. The basketball talent pool was incredibly smaller back in those days compared to the 80's and beyond. And the game has evolved so much. The level of competition when Jordan played was significantly higher than when Chamberlain and Russell played.

Gibby23
05-31-2011, 03:24 PM
Kareem is just trying to keep his name out there.

gsgs49
05-31-2011, 03:25 PM
I was checking Wilt stats and I saw that in the season he averaged 50 points,he averaged 48.5 minutes per game how can this happens?:confused:
The game duration was more than 48 minutes?

MiamiWadeCounty
05-31-2011, 03:31 PM
I was checking Wilt stats and I saw that in the season he averaged 50 points,he averaged 48.5 minutes per game how can this happens?:confused:
The game duration was more than 48 minutes?

Really? Maybe he made sure that a lot of his games were in overtime so he could get more points :p

smith&wesson
05-31-2011, 03:35 PM
well said by kareem. bill russle and some of the older guys dont get enough credit for some of theyre acomplishments. did any one here know that bill russle won 2 of those championships as a player-coach? how many players can say theyve done that ?

kozelkid
05-31-2011, 03:38 PM
Lebron's physical gifts are unmatched even in modern times; now, imagine those same physical gifts back in the day.

Wilt might have been the most gifted player of all time. At the very least, it's between Wilt, Lebron and Shaq for that title. Wilt, however, was known to have major issues. Cared much more about individual accomplishments than sacrificing for the team and was not loved amongst teammates or coaches. Not to mention he was very "unclutch".

Basically, don't take away from Wilt's gifts. With the right attitude, he'd still be as good as Howard and Lebron in today's NBA. However, Kareem is obviously way off in his letter for a number of reasons.

Here's some fun facts of just how ridiculously physically gifted Wilt was


As he did at Overbrook Chamberlain again showcased his diverse athletic talent. He ran the 100-yard dash in 10.9 seconds, shot putted 56 feet, triple jumped more than 50 feet, and won the high jump in the Big Eight track and field championships three straight years

^ "Biography - Wilt Chamberlain". HickokSports.com. September 6, 2004. Retrieved January 26, 2008.

If I were to list you the 3 most talented athletes of all time to play in the NBA it would go
1. Wilt 2. Lebron 3. Shaq

J-Relo
05-31-2011, 03:39 PM
I agree.

Wilt was always on top of my list.

WeBallin
05-31-2011, 03:40 PM
Kareem Speaks as if the NBA has history, Which most young fans have lost connection with, an only follow players with shoe endorsement......lol Kareem is dead on, an as far kareem wanting to be in the media...I'm sure its a gig out there where he could voice his strong opinions

COOLbeans
05-31-2011, 03:40 PM
LeBron James adjusted stats for the pace back then, assuming he also played 47.2 mpg:

50.8 ppg
14.2 rpg
13.3 apg

and that is in a "down year", for per game numbers for LeBron.

yeah yeah. Lebron also would not have had the superb athletic facilities that they have now. Nor did Russel, Wilt or even Jordan have any shoulders to climb on in terms of precedent. There is no way Lebron is putting up those kind of numbers in the shot blocking and physical era of the 1960's.

COOLbeans
05-31-2011, 03:42 PM
* awesome double post

JordansBulls
05-31-2011, 03:44 PM
I agree.

Wilt was always on top of my list.

His best attibute was scoring and two guys in his own era had more games of 30+ and 40+ in the playoffs than Wilt, despite Wilt playing more games. A guy whose playoff scoring goes from 30 in the regular season to 22 in the playoffs is a joke.

kozelkid
05-31-2011, 03:46 PM
His best attibute was scoring and two guys in his own era had more games of 30+ and 40+ in the playoffs than Wilt, despite Wilt playing more games. A guy whose playoff scoring goes from 30 in the regular season to 22 in the playoffs is a joke.

Wilt was notoriously known for being a major choker. Hated playing in the clutch.

gsgs49
05-31-2011, 03:48 PM
Really? Maybe he made sure that a lot of his games were in overtime so he could get more points :p

yeah it's ridiculous,I'm not impressed by the 50.4 points anymore.
50.4 points per 48.5 minutes per 130 possessions would be 26.5 points per 36 minutes per 92 possessions.

ichitownclowni
05-31-2011, 03:49 PM
Wow face palm

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 03:50 PM
yeah yeah. Lebron also would not have had the superb athletic facilities that they have now. Nor did Russel, Wilt or even Jordan have any shoulders to climb on in terms of precedent. There is no way Lebron is putting up those kind of numbers in the shot blocking and physical era of the 1960's.

read between the lines. Kareem is attempting to use per game stats from an era with the most inflated per game stats ever seen in basketball. That is the point I am making.

MiamiWadeCounty
05-31-2011, 03:52 PM
yeah it's ridiculous,I'm not impressed by the 50.4 points anymore.
50.4 points per 48.5 minutes per 130 possessions would be 26.5 points per 36 minutes per 92 possessions.

Math wiz right here :D. Most people won't use advance statistics and therefore will not take this into account when regarding Wilt's averages.

mike_noodles
05-31-2011, 03:53 PM
yeah it's ridiculous,I'm not impressed by the 50.4 points anymore.
50.4 points per 48.5 minutes per 130 possessions would be 26.5 points per 36 minutes per 92 possessions.

Thank you for breaking it down, those aren't even Shaq numbers and I'm sure the Admiral averaged better than that one year too.

SteveNash
05-31-2011, 03:54 PM
LeBron James adjusted stats for the pace back then, assuming he also played 47.2 mpg:

50.8 ppg
14.2 rpg
13.3 apg

and that is in a "down year", for per game numbers for LeBron.

LeBron James adjusted stats for the pace back then:

19.3 ppg
12.1 rpg
8.23 apg

See I can make up stats too.

KnicksR4Real
05-31-2011, 03:57 PM
beef?

KnicksR4Real
05-31-2011, 03:58 PM
Love how he put "NBA's All-Time Leading Scorer"

DwayneMVPwade
05-31-2011, 03:59 PM
MJ is the best of all time. Wilt is good, but if he was to play in our era right now or the MJ era of basketball he would not average 50 ppg and 25 rpg. I wanna see Wilt go for 50 and 20 with Dwight guarding him.

smiddy012
05-31-2011, 04:01 PM
Russell isn't even in the convo as far as GOAT is concerned, and if you really think he is, basketball is not your thing.

Somebody needs to slap the **** out of KAJ and Pippen, I'm sure MJ has already given Pippen a good scolding, cuz he is talking out of his @$$.

That said, MJ and Wilt are the two most dominant forces in NBA history, could Lebron be one of the most dominant forces ever? Yes. Could he be more dominant than MJ? About .1 percent odds of that happening, but possible (which is giving LBJ some credit IMO).

And people here are relating stats now to back in Will's day, well back in Will's day the Harlem Globe Trotters were better than most NBA/ABA teams, so there are tons of factors that go into it. Not simple mathematics and ratios like you guys make it out to be.

The day there is even a VALID debate as to who basketball's GOAT is, I will be long and gone passed away.

gsgs49
05-31-2011, 04:04 PM
LeBron James adjusted stats for the pace back then:

19.3 ppg
12.1 rpg
8.23 apg

See I can make up stats too.

:laugh2: Hawkeye didn't created the stats,it's just mathematics.
Poss per game in Wilt era/poss per game in Lebron era x Wilt minutes per game/Lebron minutes per game x Lebron PPG or RPG or APG

Lo Porto
05-31-2011, 04:05 PM
Every fan of the NBA needs to read that letter. Fans today get so wrapped up in what Nike and Gatorade tells you about MJ and what ESPN tells you about LeBron. Both players are great, but Russell and Wilt were a different breed. Those guys dominated like no others will dominate again.

Jordan was good, but he wasn't the best ever. LeBron is good, but he won't be the best ever.

ManRam
05-31-2011, 04:06 PM
LeBron James adjusted stats for the pace back then:

19.3 ppg
12.1 rpg
8.23 apg

See I can make up stats too.

He didn't make it up. It's not hard to apply the math here.

130 possessions a game vs. 92. 47.2 minutes a game w/ that pace and viola! There it is. Not terribly confusing.

COOLbeans
05-31-2011, 04:06 PM
MJ is the best of all time. Wilt is good, but if he was to play in our era right now or the MJ era of basketball he would not average 50 ppg and 25 rpg. I wanna see Wilt go for 50 and 20 with Dwight guarding him.

Granted, it's not just you. But let's not diminish Wilt's career. This guy was an extra special player, and was incredibly strong. He would definitely dominate the current league in addition to the league in the 90's as. The guy scored a ton on Bill Russel who was a (much) better defensive player than Dwight Howard is currently.

COOLbeans
05-31-2011, 04:08 PM
Russell isn't even in the convo as far as GOAT is concerned, and if you really think he is, basketball is not your thing.




haha, is this a joke? :facepalm:

SC1211
05-31-2011, 04:09 PM
Every fan of the NBA needs to read that letter. Fans today get so wrapped up in what Nike and Gatorade tells you about MJ and what ESPN tells you about LeBron. Both players are great, but Russell and Wilt were a different breed. Those guys dominated like no others will dominate again.

Jordan was good, but he wasn't the best ever. LeBron is good, but he won't be the best ever.

Yeah old guys think that their era was the best ever (in my day...we had to walk 3 miles to school in the snow!) but let's be real, the numbers tell the story. Similarly, young people think it's cool to be retro and contrary. There's a reason every basketball expert has MJ listed as the greatest player of all time.

Sorry, Wilt and Russell played in a far inferior league. Great players, no doubt, but to say that these guys are the GOAT is totally absurd. True, they dominated. In a watered down league where they played like a track meet.

Kareem is an idiot (and always has been)

smiddy012
05-31-2011, 04:09 PM
haha, is this a joke? :facepalm:

From a talent perspective, he ain't anywhere near GOAT. He was on a bunch of a great teams and was a great defender, not GOAT...

kozelkid
05-31-2011, 04:10 PM
He didn't make it up. It's not hard to apply the math here.

130 possessions a game vs. 92. 47.2 minutes a game w/ that pace and viola! There it is. Not terribly confusing.

In fairness it doesn't apply outside factors like fatigue.

Lo Porto
05-31-2011, 04:10 PM
Wilt was an absolute beast. He went to Kansas to run the 200 hurdles. He was an avid volleyball player. His athleticism has been unmatched in the NBA since his time. Yes, Howard is an athletic freak, but Wilt was also skilled. Imagine Hakeem's offense and smooth moves with Dwight's length and hops.

midwestmadman
05-31-2011, 04:11 PM
Dear Kareem,

Wilt played in an era that had 130 possessions (compared to 92) per game. Wilt also played 47.2 mpg over his career. Russell played on a team with more support than anyone has ever seen, in a league with minimal teams to compete against.

I have always thought Kareeem was one of the most egotistical jerks pro sports has ever seen. He was a great player, but you won't find many who have interacted with him that don't agree the man was a complete tool.

Hawkeye, I 100% agree with this statement. KAJ is a total a-hole. A buddy of mine saw him at the 1992 Final Four in Nola, at the time he was about 10 years old. He polietly approached Kareem and asked for his autograph on the final four program. Kareem ignored him on 3 requests before taking my friends pen, throwing it a few rows and yelling at him to quote: "Would you get the %$@# away from me!" What kind of way is that to act as an adult to a young kid who was a fan of yours? It'sunforetunate that there are many athletes that act that same way, instead of realizing that it comes with the job.

COOLbeans
05-31-2011, 04:11 PM
Bill Russel CAN be considered the GOAT, and anybody who disagrees with his consideration has not watched enough basketball to make an accurate opinion. Or you're completely bias to MJ. Which I am by the way. He's the greatest, but Russel is always in the conversation for top 1-5 player of all time.

Bruno
05-31-2011, 04:15 PM
Pace KAJ, pace.

numba1CHANGsta
05-31-2011, 04:15 PM
the point is that Lebron wont ever be better than MJ since he joined forces with Wade and Bosh

Lo Porto
05-31-2011, 04:15 PM
Yeah old guys think that their era was the best ever (in my day...we had to walk 3 miles to school in the snow!) but let's be real, the numbers tell the story. Similarly, young people think it's cool to be retro and contrary. There's a reason every basketball expert has MJ listed as the greatest player of all time.

Sorry, Wilt and Russell played in a far inferior league. Great players, no doubt, but to say that these guys are the GOAT is totally absurd. True, they dominated. In a watered down league where they played like a track meet.

Kareem is an idiot (and always has been)

Same can be said for Jordan's era. Defense was a joke in the 80's and 90's. Teams were scoring 110 a night. Defensive fundamentals today are light years ahead of Jordan's era when he scored most his points. And I'd love to see Jordan play against a zone.

Basketball players get more and more skilled the longer we go. However, you have to imagine what a guy like Wilt would do with the training of today. Everything points to him being the best of all time. With better training, does MJ get better, not by much.

COOLbeans
05-31-2011, 04:15 PM
Hawkeye, I 100% agree with this statement. KAJ is a total a-hole. A buddy of mine saw him at the 1992 Final Four in Nola, at the time he was about 10 years old. He polietly approached Kareem and asked for his autograph on the final four program. Kareem ignored him on 3 requests before taking my friends pen, throwing it a few rows and yelling at him to quote: "Would you get the %$@# away from me!" What kind of way is that to act as an adult to a young kid who was a fan of yours? It'sunforetunate that there are many athletes that act that same way, instead of realizing that it comes with the job.

I met Danny Glover when I was 4 years old, and he was the nastiest a-hole that I've ever met. And that was a long time ago.

SteveNash
05-31-2011, 04:16 PM
He didn't make it up. It's not hard to apply the math here.

130 possessions a game vs. 92. 47.2 minutes a game w/ that pace and viola! There it is. Not terribly confusing.

Except his numbers are wrong to begin with, and he ignores a lot of factors.

The Final Boss
05-31-2011, 04:18 PM
You're a clown if you don't agree with Kareem...

DMasta718
05-31-2011, 04:18 PM
Russell isn't even in the convo as far as GOAT is concerned, and if you really think he is, basketball is not your thing.


So a player who wons 11 championships (2 of them as a player coach), 5x MVP, 12x All star, Multiple 1st & 2nd all NBA teams, 2nd all time rebound leader, won NCAA & NBA championship back to back and have the NBA finals MVP named after him is not at least in the discussion of one of the greatest of all time?

COOLbeans
05-31-2011, 04:20 PM
You're a clown if you don't agree with Kareem...

:laugh2:

COOLbeans
05-31-2011, 04:21 PM
So a player who wons 11 championships (2 of them as a player coach), 5x MVP, 12x All star, Multiple 1st & 2nd all NBA teams, 2nd all time rebound leader, won NCAA & NBA championship back to back and have the NBA finals MVP named after him is not at least in the discussion of one of the greatest of all time?

enough said. /thread. :)

championships
05-31-2011, 04:21 PM
Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams….

In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won eight consecutive NBA Championships. Bill’s rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was eight per game (1989).… Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, LeBron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore.

Affectionately,

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer

Get'Em Captain!! :up: :clap:

Tell them to stop trying to put these recent players on the top Players list so quickly.

gsgs49
05-31-2011, 04:23 PM
In fairness it doesn't apply outside factors like fatigue.

yeah there is some factors that should be considered,there wasn't a 3pt line in the 60's for example

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 04:24 PM
yeah there is some factors that should be considered,there wasn't a 3pt line in the 60's for example

obviously that wouldn't effect Wilt's scoring numbers though.

COOLbeans
05-31-2011, 04:26 PM
obviously that wouldn't effect Wilt's scoring numbers though.

yeah, however defenses would have to adjust to cover the 3. Wilt would be given more room in the paint to dominate. The 3 point line would greatly improve Wilt's game and career numbers.

championships
05-31-2011, 04:26 PM
Russell isn't even in the convo as far as GOAT is concerned, and if you really think he is, basketball is not your thing.

:pity: Kids.......

Your parents should take away your internet access for a comment like that. :punish

Lakerhead4ever
05-31-2011, 04:29 PM
smh.

JordansBulls
05-31-2011, 04:30 PM
When you think of each era who comes to mind and who dominated his peers more.

50's - Mikan
60's - Russell and Wilt
70's - Kareem
80's - Magic/Bird
90's - MJ
00's - Shaq/Kobe/Duncan


With Russell he got the accolades and titles, but Wilt was the one with stats
Kareem in the 70's had the stats, but didn't win much over his peers
80's - Magic and Bird pretty much interchanged
90's - MJ had not only the accolades, titles, but also the stats
00's - Each of these guys took turns.

Simply put MJ dominated his era to a greater degree than anyone else for there decade.

Also let's not forget that Wilt needed to be traded and to change his game in order to win.

C_Mund
05-31-2011, 04:31 PM
i kind of agree. But i still think russel is better than wilt (bill simmons swayed me).

100%

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-31-2011, 04:34 PM
LeBron James adjusted stats for the pace back then, assuming he also played 47.2 mpg:

50.8 ppg
14.2 rpg
13.3 apg

and that is in a "down year", for per game numbers for LeBron.

you did the math yourself Hawk, or found it somewhere?

SteveNash
05-31-2011, 04:36 PM
When you think of each era who comes to mind and who dominated his peers more.

50's - Mikan
60's - Russell and Wilt
70's - Kareem
80's - Magic/Bird
90's - MJ
00's - Shaq/Kobe/Duncan


With Russell he got the accolades and titles, but Wilt was the one with stats
Kareem in the 70's had the stats, but didn't win much over his peers
80's - Magic and Bird pretty much interchanged
90's - MJ had not only the accolades, titles, but also the stats
00's - Each of these guys took turns.

Simply put MJ dominated his era to a greater degree than anyone else for there decade.

Also let's not forget that Wilt needed to be traded and to change his game in order to win.

Mikan had the stats and the rings.

Russell had the stats, just not supreme scoring stats to go along with all those rings.

Magic had the stats and the rings.

Let's not forget that Jordan was 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-31-2011, 04:36 PM
hahha jb pulling out the ol' cut and paste trick again

lmfao!!!

TheHighLife
05-31-2011, 04:37 PM
They writing love letters?

bosox3431
05-31-2011, 04:39 PM
When you think of each era who comes to mind and who dominated his peers more.

50's - Mikan
60's - Russell and Wilt
70's - Kareem
80's - Magic/Bird
90's - MJ
00's - Shaq/Kobe/Duncan


With Russell he got the accolades and titles, but Wilt was the one with stats
Kareem in the 70's had the stats, but didn't win much over his peers
80's - Magic and Bird pretty much interchanged
90's - MJ had not only the accolades, titles, but also the stats
00's - Each of these guys took turns.

Simply put MJ dominated his era to a greater degree than anyone else for there decade.

Also let's not forget that Wilt needed to be traded and to change his game in order to win.

Going by decades isnt the best IMO. From 87 til Jordan retired the second time he was unstopable. From like Feb of 87 to Nov of 88, Jordan had 15 50 pt games I elieve it was.

gsgs49
05-31-2011, 04:39 PM
obviously that wouldn't effect Wilt's scoring numbers though.

It effects Lebron's scoring numbers,for example he averages 26.7 points this season and 1.2 3pt made so he gets 3.6 points from 3pt shots and 23.1 points from 2 points shots and free throws.the 3.6 points would be 2.4 points and his PPG would drop to 25.5

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-31-2011, 04:39 PM
LeBron James adjusted stats for the pace back then:

19.3 ppg
12.1 rpg
8.23 apg

See I can make up stats too.

:confused:

JordansBulls
05-31-2011, 04:39 PM
Mikan had the stats and the rings.

Russell had the stats, just not supreme scoring stats to go along with all those rings.

Magic had the stats and the rings.

Let's not forget that Jordan was 1-10 in the playoffs without Pippen.

All of those players played with guys who won either league or finals mvp's.

Jordan won 2 titles without even having an allstar on his team in 1991 and 1998.

In 1990 the Bulls without Pippen won game 4 on the road against Barkley's Sixers in a blowout despite Philly having a higher SRS rating than the Bulls that year.
In 1997 the Bulls won game 5 of the ECF with Pippen playing 7 minutes.

Point is is that Jordan could win without Pippen, but you aren't beating all time great teams like the '86 Celtics or '87 Celtics without having a decent cast around you.

LakersKB24
05-31-2011, 04:40 PM
I can't believe that there's a discussion about LeBron being the best player ever? I mean ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? The guy still hasn't won a title and people are already putting him on the same level as MJ, Magic etc! Are you ****ing kidding me??? Most people refuse to put Kobe in the top 10 although he HAS 5 rings and LeBron only needs 2 MVPs to be in the convo of GOAT??? This is insane :speechless:

championships
05-31-2011, 04:45 PM
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer


This is all that needs to be said as far as the greatest scorer of all time.

SteveNash
05-31-2011, 04:47 PM
All of those players played with guys who won either league or finals mvp's.

Jordan won 2 titles without even having an allstar on his team in 1991 and 1998.

In 1990 the Bulls without Pippen won game 4 on the road against Barkley's Sixers in a blowout despite Philly having a higher SRS rating than the Bulls that year.
In 1997 the Bulls won game 5 of the ECF with Pippen playing 7 minutes.

Point is is that Jordan could win without Pippen, but you aren't beating all time great teams like the '86 Celtics or '87 Celtics without having a decent cast around you.

What MVP/Finals MVP did Mikan play with?

What separates Jordan is that he was a selfish player, which isn't all uncommon, but usually resorts to losing. Jordan had the luxury of playing in a very weak NBA era when he was winning titles, while playing with the best supporting cast and having the best coach.

Take Jordan from when he didn't have the stars aligning for him, and it's very easy to see a world where Jordan wins zero titles (or changes teams to get one!).

WeBallin
05-31-2011, 04:48 PM
I can't believe that there's a discussion about LeBron being the best player ever? I mean ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? The guy still hasn't won a title and people are already putting him on the same level as MJ, Magic etc! Are you ****ing kidding me??? Most people refuse to put Kobe in the top 10 although he HAS 5 rings and LeBron only needs 2 MVPs to be in the convo of GOAT??? This is insane :speechless:

An I never agree with Laker Fans, but this right here is dead on....lol unbelievable....:facepalm:

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-31-2011, 04:59 PM
What MVP/Finals MVP did Mikan play with?

What separates Jordan is that he was a selfish player, which isn't all uncommon, but usually resorts to losing. Jordan had the luxury of playing in a very weak NBA era when he was winning titles, while playing with the best supporting cast and having the best coach.

Take Jordan from when he didn't have the stars aligning for him, and it's very easy to see a world where Jordan wins zero titles (or changes teams to get one!).

trololololo

JordansBulls
05-31-2011, 04:59 PM
What MVP/Finals MVP did Mikan play with?

What separates Jordan is that he was a selfish player, which isn't all uncommon, but usually resorts to losing. Jordan had the luxury of playing in a very weak NBA era when he was winning titles, while playing with the best supporting cast and having the best coach.

Take Jordan from when he didn't have the stars aligning for him, and it's very easy to see a world where Jordan wins zero titles (or changes teams to get one!).

Actually this is totally false, in fact he had it harder than most of the top 10 all time. He went to a losing organization from the get go a franchise that had the 2nd worst record in the league.

The Bulls had the 2nd worst record in the NBA in 1984 the year before they drafted MJ
Only Indiana was worse.

Bulls were 27-55 and Indiana was 26-56

MJ was 2nd in the league in PER and Win Shares as a rookie, meaning the only other player that year that does better with the Bulls is Bird, who was #1 in both.
In 1987 MJ led in both PER and Win Shares, meaning no one else does better that year on the Bulls than he does.

Winning is important, but it depends on how you win as well. Playing for an organization that is known for winning is pretty simple. For instance, the Lakers are a winning organization so it is easy for top 3-5 players in the league playing with LA to win titles. Nearly every decade they have been in the finals and/or won Titles. So obviously when a big name is there they will win. That won't happen with any other franchise automatically except maybe Boston.
50's - Mikan (3 titles)
60's - West/Baylor (6 finals)
70's - West (1 title)/Kareem
80's - Magic/Kareem (5 titles)
90's - Magic (first two years), Shaq (last 3 years)
00's - Shaq (first year)/Shaq/Kobe next 2 years/Kobe last 2 years.


Bulls were not a winning organization until MJ came along.

Bird went to a franchise that had a star player in place and that had come off winning 2 titles in the previous 6 years.

Russell went to a team from the get go with the 2nd best record in the league. It's like if MJ had gone to the Pistons in 1985 with Isiah there when the Pistons had the 4th best record in the East the season prior at 49-33 (1984). The Pistons in 1985 with MJ would have probably started winning titles immediately.


In 1957 Russell had 2 guys on his team that were 1st team in Cousy and Sharman while he himself did not even make any All NBA team. Also Heinsohn in his 1st year made the allstar team while Russell did not and it was Heinsohn who was ROY over Russell that year, not to mention the C's also had the league MVP on his team in Cousy.

Kareem got the opportunity to play with Oscar in Milwaukee and then Magic in LA and this was in the 70's when the top talents was split up.

Also Magic Johnson refused to play with the Bulls threatening to go back to school if he was to be drafted by the Bulls. He ended up playing with Kareem.

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-05/sports/sp-83_1_lakers


Wilt had to change and adjust his game in order to win and also be traded.

MJ relished that opportunity to play with the Bulls and was in the worst situation of any top 10 player when he came in.

And Jordan didn't acquire a star. He pretty much aided a guy on his team to become a star. Taught him stuff and practice, etc.

whitemamba33
05-31-2011, 05:06 PM
There are so many flaws in this discussion...it hurts my brain a little.

You can't just "adjust" LeBron's stats. You can't just ignore how exhausted he'd be playing 47 minutes a night and assume there would be no break down in his performance, let alone his overall health. Wilt actually DID it.

You can't ignore 40-50 years of medical advances and improved training methods. It is easy to say that Wilt couldn't keep up with today's players, but who knows where Wilt would have been with todays technology and training, and who knows where today's players would be without those advantages. You also can't ignore the general evolution of the game. Many of today's players model their games after the greats, while Wilt had very little. Wilt was a genetic freak and one of the best athletes the NBA has ever seen...I can't imagine what he could have done today.

There is no absolute GOAT. It all depends on what you value more. For some people it's stats. For others, it might be defense. For the better part of the generation, Russell owned Wilt in the post-season. If you look at the "offense first" teams of the last decade like Golden State and the Suns, they have zero championships. Meanwhile, defensive-minded teams like the Pistons and San Antonio have won. So how can I value a high scorer over a great defender? If you are going to discredit LeBron for not winning, how can I value Wilt over Russell? This isn't necessarily my opinion, but just shows there is no clear winner here.

Can you imagine the league today with only 8 teams? I'm looking at some of the best SG defenders that played in Jordan's era, and the list doesn't impress much at all.

Also can't ignore pretty significant rule changes over the years. Not having a three-point line would have made it much more difficult to stretch the defense in Wilt's days.

Just give it up. I hope Kareem and Pippen end it here as well. Nobody has ever come up with the definitive GOAT in any sport, and they never will.

cubswin25
05-31-2011, 05:08 PM
Kareem theories are pretty flawed here. Especially when he said well Wilt played vs 8 teams. While making it sound like Jordan played in a watered down 30 team league. Yeah Kareem did you see the NBA back then? Don't get me wrong Wilt was very good, but a lot of his success was because he wasn't playing against anybody. He was a man among boys, or shorter, slower white big men who were in the league at the time. That most of them would have never been in the league in the late 70s or 80s or 90s. That is like Shaq or Ewing or Hakeem, Robinson vs Will Perdue, Joe Klein or any big man stiff we saw play over the years every night. Heck today it would be like Dwight Howard vs say Josh McRoberts or Tyler Hansborgh every night. The sad but true fact is, you couldn't compare a player in the 50s-60s to one from the mid to late 70s- to modern day today. Because the NBA back then didn't have the biggest, strongest and most athletic players in the world playing there. Due to race and some other things. Perfect example of that is George Mikan being seen as a great player. He would lucky to be a good bench player in the 80s-2000s.

mike_noodles
05-31-2011, 05:10 PM
The problem is, today's NBA is dominated by athletic freaks. Yesteryear only had a few. It's almost impossible to say who is the best, but LeBron is not in that discussion yet.

dodie53
05-31-2011, 05:14 PM
LeBron James adjusted stats for the pace back then, assuming he also played 47.2 mpg:

50.8 ppg
14.2 rpg
13.3 apg

and that is in a "down year", for per game numbers for LeBron.

Deng!

Rentzias
05-31-2011, 05:15 PM
What separates Jordan is that he was a selfish player, which isn't all uncommon, but usually resorts to losing. Jordan had the luxury of playing in a very weak NBA era when he was winning titles, while playing with the best supporting cast and having the best coach.

Take Jordan from when he didn't have the stars aligning for him, and it's very easy to see a world where Jordan wins zero titles (or changes teams to get one!).

C'mon man, look at this roster: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1991.html

Pippen was All-NBA 2nd Defensive team, and that was it. They beat the reigning NBA champs to advance to the finals, and beat the other previous NBA champ to do it. Not like the Lakers/Pistons were aging, Dumars, Rodman, Thomas were still under 30, same with Divac, Perkins, Scott and Worthy, and Magic was 31. Guy won his first with Paxson and Cartwright starting.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 05:15 PM
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer


This is all that needs to be said as far as the greatest scorer of all time.

when you play 46 years, you tend to pile up great totals

lukeem21
05-31-2011, 05:16 PM
Why does no one ever talk about probably the most important aspect when comparing Jordan and Chamberlain


When Wilt played he was so dominate and good that they had to make several rule changes just to make him somewhat stoppable.... Wider Key, no passing over backcoard... He also took beatings that would bring Shaq to tears but played through it all 48.5 minutes per game in one season playing all game every game

When Jordan became the leader in the NBA (Magic gets aids and Bird got old/ retired) David Stern and the rest of basketball knew (since Dr J saved the NBA) that they needed a star to market to save the NBA from its near destruction in the 70s... So they changed rules to aid Jordan, handchecking, 3pt line, increase severity of flagerant fouls (a couple times) and don't get me started on the abolishment of travelling.

Through all of those changes Wilt continued to find ways to change his game and continue to dominate while the NBA basically changed itself and bent over backwards to allow Jordan to dominate as much as possible the era between the great 80s and the 2000s

The only knock ever on Chamberlain was that he didnt win, since he did everything else better than Jordan (defense, score, assist, rebound) but the fact is that Chamberlain did win, twice, in an era that was more difficult to win in going against the greatest team of all time. If you want to compare the Utah Jazz in the 90s to the Russel's Celtics be my guest.

cubswin25
05-31-2011, 05:26 PM
When Jordan became the leader in the NBA (Magic gets aids and Bird got old/ retired) David Stern and the rest of basketball knew (since Dr J saved the NBA) that they needed a star to market to save the NBA from its near destruction in the 70s... So they changed rules to aid Jordan, handchecking, 3pt line, increase severity of flagerant fouls (a couple times) and don't get me started on the abolishment of travelling.

A lot of those changes happen before Jordan or after Jordan. Like 3 pt line was already there before he entered the league. They got rid of handchecking towards the end of Jordan career and serevity of flagerant fouls didn't just help Jordan. In fact I don't recall players flagerant fouling Jordan very often at all. But yeah basically everything you said there was way over or not correct.



Through all of those changes Wilt continued to find ways to change his game and continue to dominate while the NBA basically changed itself and bent over backwards to allow Jordan to dominate as much as possible the era between the great 80s and the 2000s

Please who did Wilt play against? How tall or athletic were these players? Could half of them even play in the NBA by the 80s? I bet not even 25 percent of the league could play in the NBA today. Again Wilt was before his time, and played in a era where it was pretty darn easy for a big man to dominate. You put Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing or Robinson in the era, and the numbers would be the same or better.

Theschrems101
05-31-2011, 05:28 PM
Wilt played in a league where he was one of the few African players, where he towered over all other players. It would be like throwing Cutler in the UFL and saying hes the greatest NFL player of all-time basing it off those numbers.

NetsPaint
05-31-2011, 05:28 PM
I haven't seen much of Wilt, and probably even less of Russell, but I never think of Wilt as this amazing player. No disrespect whatsoever, but I'd imagine Shaq would have put up jaw-dropping numbers back then as well.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 05:30 PM
Please who did Wilt play against? How tall or athletic were these players? Could half of them even play in the NBA by the 80s? I bet not even 25 percent of the league could play in the NBA today. Again Wilt was before his time, and played in a era where it was pretty darn easy for a big man to dominate. You put Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing or Robinson in the era, and the numbers would be the same or better.

well, if we put the average 6th man in a time machine, and dropped him off in 2060, he wouldn't make the NBA either.

Its tough to compare era's, and you for sure can't do it with simply inserting modern players into the old days. Obviously if we just sent LeBron in a time machine back 50 years, he would murder everything in sight.

It doesn't work that way when comparing. You must take into account their stats (obviously adjusted for pace, etc), accolades, dominance amongst peers, peak, prime, etc against what they had the opportunity to play against. That is the only way to do it, and even then its subjective.

cubswin25
05-31-2011, 05:32 PM
Wilt played in a league where he was one of the few African players, where he towered over all other players. It would be like throwing Cutler in the UFL and saying hes the greatest NFL player of all-time basing it off those numbers.

Exactly most of the time he was facing smaller white guys who weren't that athletic.


I haven't seen much of Wilt, and probably even less of Russel, but I never think of Wilt as this amazing player. No disrespect whatsoever, but I'd imagine Shaq would have put up jaw-dropping numbers back then as well.

Yeah those guys back then would have been bouncing off Shaq any time they tried to foul him hard.

TrueFan420
05-31-2011, 05:35 PM
Forget stats for a second and that includes rings. Anyone can make a good argument to why any of the top players (mj, magic, bird, wilt, russel and ect.) should be called the GOAT.

There is one real big reason why Jordan is the GOAT and it has nothing to do with basketball. Jordan was really the first player to transcend the sport and dominate pop culture. Add that with the fact that statically, including rings, he was one of the best ever and you get the GOAT.

AddiX
05-31-2011, 05:47 PM
Anyone here who overlooks what Russell accomplished and how much of the perfect team player he was, loses credibility IMO.

I wasn't alive to watch him, but the games I watched, it was clear, this guy did everything possible to make sure his team would win. This guy was the least selfish player I've ever seen.

Everyone throws wilts name around all the time and look past Russell because he wasn't a big scorer, that's crazy IMO, Russ was amazing. IMO he defined how to play "winning basketball."

We have not witnessed a player like him since.

cubswin25
05-31-2011, 05:47 PM
Its tough to compare era's, and you for sure can't do it with simply inserting modern players into the old days. Obviously if we just sent LeBron in a time machine back 50 years, he would murder everything in sight.

Very true, and the thing is there's no doubt Lebron has the potential to be the greatest player of all time. The league has never seen a guy who's as fast, as strong and as big as him. Who plays very well on both ends of the court. But at this stage of his career, he's nowhere close to the greatest player of all time.




It doesn't work that way when comparing. You must take into account their stats (obviously adjusted for pace, etc), accolades, dominance amongst peers, peak, prime, etc against what they had the opportunity to play against. That is the only way to do it, and even then its subjective.

Yeah, I just think it's harder to go off stats due to who their playing back in the day. The NBA was just too watered down in the 50s-early 70s, for me to ever consider those guys one of the best players of all time. I think it's a lot more fair to compare, once the NBA started having the best basketball players in the world playing in it at one time. Which I feel didn't start until after the ABA merged with the NBA. But over the last 35 plus years or so, I think it's fine to compare stats. Since at least the league was filled with tons of talented and athletic players during those years. Yes comparing era's is always gonna be a judgement call. In the 90's there's no doubt that Dwight Howard wouldn't have been seen as the best C in the NBA like he is today. But at the same time, would a guy like Kevin Mchale might not be seen as a hall of fame type player if he was playing in the league these days. So it works both ways really, and it just depends on how much the league changes. In the 90s there were a bunch of stud scoring centers, in todays game there aren't really any stud scoring centers other then Howard. But we now are seeing a bunch of stud scoring PG, while there weren't many during the 80s and 90s.

smiddy012
05-31-2011, 05:50 PM
Exactly most of the time he was facing smaller white guys who weren't that athletic.

Yeah those guys back then would have been bouncing off Shaq any time they tried to foul him hard.

Even by modern standards Wilt was and is a freak, imagine what he would have looked like with today's nutrition and strength training. Wilt was ahead of his time, would have loved to see him play later in the league's evolution. That said there really is nothing but a smidgen of prehistoric stats to back his case up for GOAT. As for the best big man of all time however, he very well could be, however we will never know.

allSUAVE
05-31-2011, 05:52 PM
Pippen is going to be killed by alot of people from now on.

LA_Raiders
05-31-2011, 05:56 PM
love it...

Bruno
05-31-2011, 05:57 PM
New Thread:

"Which comment by Scottie Pippen was more controversial?"
a) Saying that Kobe Bryant is a top-five player of all time.
b) Saying that LBJ could become the greatest overall player that the league has ever seen.

:laugh2:

Pippen needs to get a job.

cubswin25
05-31-2011, 05:59 PM
Even by modern standards Wilt was and is a freak, imagine what he would have looked like with today's nutrition and strength training. Wilt was ahead of his time, would have loved to see him play later in the league's evolution. That said there really is nothing but a smidgen of prehistoric stats to back his case up for GOAT. As for the best big man of all time however, he very well could be, however we will never know.

Oh yeah Wilt would have been a stud hall of fame player, even if he played in the 80s, 90s or today. But I think most would agree, his stats were inflated due to who he was playing against. Which is why nobody really sees him as the greatest scorer of all time. It's pretty hard for me to imagine that Shaq, Hakeem or Robinson couldn't have had the same numbers vs those guys. Put one of those guys in the NBA in 62-63 and they would score 44-50 PPG to.

Teeboy1487
05-31-2011, 06:16 PM
Respect Pippen but Kareem killed him in this letter with facts. Even if Lebron wins a ring, he's not no where near the top ten list of all time.

kyleh1987
05-31-2011, 06:32 PM
Respect Pippen but Kareem killed him in this letter with facts. Even if Lebron wins a ring, he's not no where near the top ten list of all time.

clearly you have not read any bit of the discussion.

MiamiWadeCounty
05-31-2011, 06:42 PM
Oh yeah Wilt would have been a stud hall of fame player, even if he played in the 80s, 90s or today. But I think most would agree, his stats were inflated due to who he was playing against. Which is why nobody really sees him as the greatest scorer of all time. It's pretty hard for me to imagine that Shaq, Hakeem or Robinson couldn't have had the same numbers vs those guys. Put one of those guys in the NBA in 62-63 and they would score 44-50 PPG to.

Agreed. It is also hard for me to believe that Wilt could average over 35 ppg against Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan, Dwight, etc...

kArSoN RyDaH
05-31-2011, 06:47 PM
Hawkeye you know damm well that Lebron doesn't belong in the same sentence as. MJ Wilt or any other player. I don't understand why you're trying to convince yourself.

Bornknick73
05-31-2011, 06:49 PM
I give Wilt more respect for his ***** count then his playing prowess. The man played in a League dominated by 6ft whiteboys in short shorts. Ive watched film of it and it was plain ole height domination. Wilt was just heads and tails taller than every other player in the league back then. Russell was another one. They were literally giants playing with midgets. They literally banned the dunk for a time back then because it was too easy for them to score. If I was playing in a league of midgets Id score 50 a game and pull down 20+ rebounds.

While I hated the man, Jordan played on a level playing field. He had massive 7fts to deal with (Ewing,Shaq,Hakeem,Mutombo,Robinson) he had some of the best players in the world at his height or taller (Bird, Magic, Reggie, Dominique,Drexler) and there were tons of rock solid PFs in his path to greatness (Barkley, Malone, Kemp, Mchale, Worthy) The man beat all comers of all heights and skill levels.

Which is why I feel the domination of the giants in the 50s,60s, and 70s dont hold much water compared to the accomplishments of Jordan.

Those guys were giants dominating little boys. Jordan became a giant by defeating giants. The overall height and talent level of the 80s and 90s players was extreme.

Put Wilt or Russell on thier teams from 85-95 and there would be no such records for them.

Rentzias
05-31-2011, 06:52 PM
Forget stats for a second and that includes rings. Anyone can make a good argument to why any of the top players (mj, magic, bird, wilt, russel and ect.) should be called the GOAT.

There is one real big reason why Jordan is the GOAT and it has nothing to do with basketball. Jordan was really the first player to transcend the sport and dominate pop culture. Add that with the fact that statically, including rings, he was one of the best ever and you get the GOAT.

That's also a product of the media age though. And the GOAT argument should be limited to basketball, yes, stats and rings, etc. If you're going off-the-court, then Russell has a lot to go on based on what he did for the African American culture (one of the knocks on Jordan), and Wilt had legendary get laid numbers.

ShiroRX
05-31-2011, 06:59 PM
There is a reason the Lakers don't like him.

MiamiWadeCounty
05-31-2011, 06:59 PM
That's also a product of the media age though. And the GOAT argument should be limited to basketball, yes, stats and rings, etc. If you're going off-the-court, then Russell has a lot to go on based on what he did for the African American culture (one of the knocks on Jordan), and Wilt had legendary get laid numbers.

They don't call him "WILT THE STILT" for nothing ;) :D :eyebrow:

PHX2daDEATH
05-31-2011, 07:01 PM
Fail Kareem Fail.. The letter was like the blind leading the blind.. Ill point out at that Wilt was a giant among mere mortals when he played..same goes for Bill Russell..different era, different time..everyone else has thrown out the stats also Jordan would of dominated in Bill and Wilt's eras also..where as Wilt and Bill might have been all-stars and hofers but would they of gotten the stats and titles in jordan's era? Get that!?

naps
05-31-2011, 07:03 PM
How can you say that he would never score 37 a game? This is why O hate what ifs. Its stupid. To say Lebron would have scores 50ppg is ridiculous.

No it's not because Hawkeye has adjusted the game pace like when Wilt played. He did it for MJ as well. Why is it ridiculous? I guarantee if this was for Kobe you would be all over this. Get real,stop being a blind homer, know how to read, and then post your comment.

northsider
05-31-2011, 07:15 PM
Nothing against Wilt but, he was a man amongst boys playing around a bunch of guys that were just cracking 6 foot tall while he towered over them.

naps
05-31-2011, 07:17 PM
I want to know how this helps Kareems argument, INO it hurts it.



More players, more team, makes it harder to win scoring titles and championships.

THIS!

I noticed this too while I was reading the letter. I went over it twice and I was like "WTF how is this helping his arguments?"

blastmasta26
05-31-2011, 07:18 PM
Kareem and Pippen: great basketball players, not analysts however. I'll leave it at that.

Teeboy1487
05-31-2011, 07:19 PM
clearly you have not read any bit of the discussion.

Well, I read the op and based my opinion on that and what Pippen said. I have a life you know ;). I'm not fortunate enough to read the whole thread.

fadedmario
05-31-2011, 07:33 PM
He's spot on.

magichatnumber9
05-31-2011, 07:34 PM
Bill Russell is the G.O.A.T

mjt20mik
05-31-2011, 07:44 PM
Comparisons to how current players would do in the 50s/60s/70s/80s/ are funny.

One thing I can be certain of, Lebron (or any current NBA Superstar player) would be complaining 24/7 due to handchecks.

HouRealCoach
05-31-2011, 08:31 PM
There were 8 teams? Thats why Bill won 11 titles?

and Wilt is the best statistically but MJ had stats, wins, defense, and everything else possible

MJ is the only player to win a title without a big that can demand a double...

and Kareem is an idiot

D Roses Bulls
05-31-2011, 08:43 PM
So because I didn't see Wilt and Russell play, I can't see that Lebron has clear physical advantages over them? That's completely illogical.

Only Dwight Howard can compare to Lebron in terms of natural physical gifts, and no one of the past can claim these gifts.

Never have we seen a 6'8", 280 pound man run and jump the way Lebron does with the strength he possesses to boot.

Shawn Kemp says hello

lakerboy
05-31-2011, 08:47 PM
Bill Russell will never be the GOAT because he only played against 8 teams then.


9 freaking teams playing for a single championship!!!

lakerboy
05-31-2011, 08:49 PM
There were 8 teams? Thats why Bill won 11 titles?

and Wilt is the best statistically but MJ had stats, wins, defense, and everything else possible

MJ is the only player to win a title without a big that can demand a double...

and Kareem is an idiot

MJ ERA sucked. He is way too overrated. His team was a 55+ win team without him. That says a lot about his era, his contribution, and his teammates.

kdog23
05-31-2011, 08:56 PM
MJ ERA sucked. He is way too overrated. His team was a 55+ win team without him. That says a lot about his era, his contribution, and his teammates.

If MJ was a Laker you would be on your knees....unzipping his pants.....go Lakers !!

Stuckey#3
05-31-2011, 09:03 PM
Kareem is right on most accounts...
Players and fans today are arrogant and do not respect the history of the NBA.
Russell and Chamberlain set the standard for players to come; there is no true way to compare eras...

Why can't we just say Jordan was the best of his era; Chamberlain was the best of his era; Kobe was the best of his era and Lebron has the potential to be the best of this era?

Why? Because basketball shoes and gatorade don't sell themselves.

kArSoN RyDaH
05-31-2011, 09:08 PM
No it's not because Hawkeye has adjusted the game pace like when Wilt played. He did it for MJ as well. Why is it ridiculous? I guarantee if this was for Kobe you would be all over this. Get real,stop being a blind homer, know how to read, and then post your comment.

Who are you? It's ridiculous because of the fact that adjusting statistics for pace in different eras does not take into account the players energy or whether or not the player would still produce at that rate in that pace.


Whether or not I'd like it if it was Kobe is irrelevant because these "adjusted" statistics mean absolutely NOTHING!

dolfan2909
05-31-2011, 09:59 PM
haha leading scorer of all time...kareem played 20 full seasons, jordan played less than 13 and a half and is about 6000 points behind him, anyone think jordan could have averaged 1000 points per game over 6 more seasons? that would be about 12 points per game...wilt had pretty much the same career length as jordan and MJ outscored him, also wilt's 100 point game was a joke, look into it, it was basically a sham of a game

SteveNash
06-01-2011, 01:04 AM
Actually this is totally false, in fact he had it harder than most of the top 10 all time. He went to a losing organization from the get go a franchise that had the 2nd worst record in the league.

The Bulls had the 2nd worst record in the NBA in 1984 the year before they drafted MJ
Only Indiana was worse.

Bulls were 27-55 and Indiana was 26-56

Won 27 games, pretty nice fitting. Lakers and Celtics were nothing until they were transformed by Mikan and Russell. Most top players went to weak teams.


Winning is important, but it depends on how you win as well. Playing for an organization that is known for winning is pretty simple. For instance, the Lakers are a winning organization so it is easy for top 3-5 players in the league playing with LA to win titles. Nearly every decade they have been in the finals and/or won Titles. So obviously when a big name is there they will win. That won't happen with any other franchise automatically except maybe Boston.
50's - Mikan (3 titles)
60's - West/Baylor (6 finals)
70's - West (1 title)/Kareem
80's - Magic/Kareem (5 titles)
90's - Magic (first two years), Shaq (last 3 years)
00's - Shaq (first year)/Shaq/Kobe next 2 years/Kobe last 2 years.

Past success has little impact, LA has the advantage of being a more desirable market, but you look at Boston where they've had huge stretches of being bad.


Bulls were not a winning organization until MJ came along.

Bulls were not an above .500 team until Pippen came along.


Bird went to a franchise that had a star player in place and that had come off winning 2 titles in the previous 6 years.

A star player who won 32 and 29 games the years before Bird. Come on man, you bringing up a broken down Cowens is like me bringing up Gervin.


Russell went to a team from the get go with the 2nd best record in the league. It's like if MJ had gone to the Pistons in 1985 with Isiah there when the Pistons had the 4th best record in the East the season prior at 49-33 (1984). The Pistons in 1985 with MJ would have probably started winning titles immediately.

2nd best team that had a first round exit. MJ joining the Pistons is completely different as he's more selfish and played bad defense, the kind of thing that kills team chemistry. That's why Russell's great.


In 1957 Russell had 2 guys on his team that were 1st team in Cousy and Sharman while he himself did not even make any All NBA team. Also Heinsohn in his 1st year made the allstar team while Russell did not and it was Heinsohn who was ROY over Russell that year, not to mention the C's also had the league MVP on his team in Cousy.

It was a lot easier to make the 1st team back then.

Russell missed a quarter of the season because he was busy winning a gold medal for the US.


Kareem got the opportunity to play with Oscar in Milwaukee and then Magic in LA and this was in the 70's when the top talents was split up.

Magic played 20 games in the 70s. And you can bash Kareem all you want, not a fan of his.


Also Magic Johnson refused to play with the Bulls threatening to go back to school if he was to be drafted by the Bulls. He ended up playing with Kareem.

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-05/sports/sp-83_1_lakers

Okay.


Wilt had to change and adjust his game in order to win and also be traded.

What's wrong with adjusting your game?


MJ relished that opportunity to play with the Bulls and was in the worst situation of any top 10 player when he came in.

And Jordan didn't acquire a star. He pretty much aided a guy on his team to become a star. Taught him stuff and practice, etc.

I don't know how you're measuring that, but who cares how bad a situation he was when he got there? He got a great team around him, he wasn't the GM (and if he was he'd definitely never win a title).


C'mon man, look at this roster: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1991.html

Pippen was All-NBA 2nd Defensive team, and that was it. They beat the reigning NBA champs to advance to the finals, and beat the other previous NBA champ to do it. Not like the Lakers/Pistons were aging, Dumars, Rodman, Thomas were still under 30, same with Divac, Perkins, Scott and Worthy, and Magic was 31. Guy won his first with Paxson and Cartwright starting.

Paxson was the one weak link in the starting 5 which shows you that it was a pretty good team. People dump on Cartwright because he was a defensive player who didn't put up great stats. Horace was great as well. Pistons and Lakers were aging and were plagued with injuries.


Wilt played in a league where he was one of the few African players, where he towered over all other players. It would be like throwing Cutler in the UFL and saying hes the greatest NFL player of all-time basing it off those numbers.

So if Shawn Bradley was African he would have dominated :confused:


haha leading scorer of all time...kareem played 20 full seasons, jordan played less than 13 and a half and is about 6000 points behind him, anyone think jordan could have averaged 1000 points per game over 6 more seasons? that would be about 12 points per game...wilt had pretty much the same career length as jordan and MJ outscored him, also wilt's 100 point game was a joke, look into it, it was basically a sham of a game

Jordan was a complete liability in Washington so no.

Sixerlover
06-01-2011, 01:18 AM
Basketball is easily the only sport where fans and other players downgrade the past instead of embracing it.

Raph12
06-01-2011, 01:49 AM
Jordan's better than any player in league history... So far.

Kareem is not as intelligent as he thinks, he hasn't accounted for pace, size/athleticism, rules, etc which would change the league time and time again.

MJ was and is the GOAT and it's not even that close, nobody has played at that level as long as he did and accomplished as much as he did.

D Roses Bulls
06-01-2011, 01:57 AM
Jordan's better than any player in league history... So far.

Kareem is not as intelligent as he thinks, he hasn't accounted for pace, size/athleticism, rules, etc which would change the league time and time again.

MJ was and is the GOAT and it's not even that close, nobody has played at that level as long as he did and accomplished as much as he did.

and the thing is, can you imagine what he would of done if he had not taken off that year and a half for baseball and wouldn't of retired in 99......

bedford1829
06-01-2011, 02:20 AM
Listen, when it comes to the level of player that both Jordan and James are it's splitting hairs to determine who the better player is or was.

Any franchise would gladly take either it comes down to championships and performance in the clutch.

Clearly, lebron James is comfortable and capable of performing in the moment. However not like Jordan.

Many superstars (magic, LBJ, Kobe, etc ) have been comfortable performing in the moment. But no superstar ever became bigger than the moment like Jordan was able to. The way the entire basketball world stopped and slowed down and was manipulated by his will in the biggest of moments will never be matched or surpassed.

No matter what James advocates will say, his career will always have a black eye in the way many believed he quit on the cavs in the final year he was there. A thing Jordan couldn't bring himself to ever allow. Or the way James left his home franchise and joined someone else's established franchise, a move which will always (however unfair) bring his competetiveness into question.

No ones knocking lebron, I'm just saying that on the biggest of stages Jordan was not only fantastic but he became bigger than the game itself. He was unstoppable and his will was unmatched. He refused to accept failure no matter what and it became almost comical the way he always came through when his team needed him the most.

bedford1829
06-01-2011, 02:25 AM
Won 27 games, pretty nice fitting. Lakers and Celtics were nothing until they were transformed by Mikan and Russell. Most top players went to weak teams.



Past success has little impact, LA has the advantage of being a more desirable market, but you look at Boston where they've had huge stretches of being bad.



Bulls were not an above .500 team until Pippen came along.




A star player who won 32 and 29 games the years before Bird. Come on man, you bringing up a broken down Cowens is like me bringing up Gervin.



2nd best team that had a first round exit. MJ joining the Pistons is completely different as he's more selfish and played bad defense, the kind of thing that kills team chemistry. That's why Russell's great.




It was a lot easier to make the 1st team back then.

Russell missed a quarter of the season because he was busy winning a gold medal for the US.




Magic played 20 games in the 70s. And you can bash Kareem all you want, not a fan of his.



Okay.






What's wrong with adjusting your game?



I don't know how you're measuring that, but who cares how bad a situation he was when he got there? He got a great team around him, he wasn't the GM (and if he was he'd definitely never win a title).




Paxson was the one weak link in the starting 5 which shows you that it was a pretty good team. People dump on Cartwright because he was a defensive player who didn't put up great stats. Horace was great as well. Pistons and Lakers were aging and were plagued with injuries.



So if Shawn Bradley was African he would have dominated :confused:



Jordan was a complete liability in Washington so no.

Jordan played better than any 40 year old guard in the history of the game while in Washington.

Let's be real it's much more difficult for guards to play into their 40s than it is for a Center because of a guards reliance on speed and agility which clearly is the first thing for a basketball player to go and one thing that centers can succeed without

rabzouz 96
06-01-2011, 05:59 AM
Jordan played better than any 40 year old guard in the history of the game while in Washington.

Let's be real it's much more difficult for guards to play into their 40s than it is for a Center because of a guards reliance on speed and agility which clearly is the first thing for a basketball player to go and one thing that centers can succeed without

as seen on tim duncan and shaquille oneal

knicks_champ
06-01-2011, 06:11 AM
LeBron James adjusted stats for the pace back then, assuming he also played 47.2 mpg:

50.8 ppg
14.2 rpg
13.3 apg

and that is in a "down year", for per game numbers for LeBron.

Wow!

rabzouz 96
06-01-2011, 06:17 AM
Wow!

But you have to count in how much foul calls were called in those days. These days players average 5 or more FTA a game. That alone gives them more points to put into stats but back in those times fouls were hard to come by unlike now where any touching is called a foul.

ya with wilts phenomenal ft percentages, that would be 2 more points per game for him

knicks_champ
06-01-2011, 06:26 AM
ya with wilts phenomenal ft percentages, that would be 2 more points per game for him

I just ran through some Stats and found out that Wilt took way too many FTA in his time ( Double what Lebron takes now ) so my previous post means nothing now. Lol Research pays off!

rabzouz 96
06-01-2011, 06:39 AM
I just ran through some Stats and found out that Wilt took way too many FTA in his time ( Double what Lebron takes now ) so my previous post means nothing now. Lol Research pays off!
lol nice, i think the personal fouls back then were also a little higher than nowadays, so they werent saints either, not sure tho

knicks_champ
06-01-2011, 07:45 AM
lol nice, i think the personal fouls back then were also a little higher than nowadays, so they werent saints either, not sure tho


The difference between back then and now is that foul calls now consist of putting your hand on a player back then it consist of pushing or tackling somebody. lol

wa77ss
06-01-2011, 07:48 AM
how does having more teams to compete against make you a lesser player? If jordan played against 8 teams wouldn't that make his chances of winning better?

Kareem is to full of himself, does anyone else remember him being on jeapordy ?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80785738/

JordansBulls
06-01-2011, 08:11 AM
Won 27 games, pretty nice fitting. Lakers and Celtics were nothing until they were transformed by Mikan and Russell. Most top players went to weak teams.


The NBA was just starting with Mikan, so someone has to start off. Sorry and the Celtics had the 2nd best record in the league before Russell arrived including the MVP of the league in Cousy. Russell missed a 1/3 of the season and the Celtics still had the best record. They also gained the ROY in Heinsohn who won it over Russell and who also made the allstar team. That team had 3 allstars, 2 first team members, 1 second team member and Russell was not on any of them. Don't be a hypocrite.



Past success has little impact, LA has the advantage of being a more desirable market, but you look at Boston where they've had huge stretches of being bad.

Big market and winning organization.




Bulls were not an above .500 team until Pippen came along.

Yes a 8 ppg and 4 rpg player a game is who puts the team higher including coming off the bench and who finished 9th on the team in Win Shares PER 48 minutes, 7th in Win Shares and 7th in PER. But yeah he was the reason. Get a clue dude.





A star player who won 32 and 29 games the years before Bird. Come on man, you bringing up a broken down Cowens is like me bringing up Gervin.

Archibald made the allstar team in 1980.




2nd best team that had a first round exit. MJ joining the Pistons is completely different as he's more selfish and played bad defense, the kind of thing that kills team chemistry. That's why Russell's great.

Pistons would have been great right off the bat with MJ this is why he is #1 all time in PER in the season and playoffs and why is he #1 all time in Win Shares PER 48 minutes in the season and playoffs because he contributed most to winning and the stats prove it. Yeah Russell is great, but when you have 3 members on your team who make the all nba team and allstar game and you aren't on either, then let's not give this guy the credit for the Celtics winning right off the bat.




It was a lot easier to make the 1st team back then.

Russell missed a quarter of the season because he was busy winning a gold medal for the US.

I realize that, he still had a guy win ROY over him and a guy win MVP on his team including two first team members.

PHX2daDEATH
06-01-2011, 08:38 AM
MJ ERA sucked. He is way too overrated. His team was a 55+ win team without him. That says a lot about his era, his contribution, and his teammates.

Yeah the bulls won 55 games but did they win the championship that year! i think it speaks volumes on Pippen and Jackson's legacies though,.. and how can a fan of Kobe say Jordan is overrated!!? i wouldn't call Kobe overrated, I'd call him Lucky, though..Jordan certainly played in a tougher era then the players of the past 10-13 years..go watch game tape of the early nineties, late eighties where guards couldnt roam so freely, if steve nash tried to to run under the rim while dribbling he'd be clobbered by 3 players..think about hand-checking also ..only one team in the last 20 years has ever won a title without an-all star big man..and that was the Bulls, 6 times! if you want to count the Pistons then go ahead but I say Sheed and Big Ben were their two must crucial players during that title run.

bedford1829
06-01-2011, 10:24 AM
Yeah the bulls won 55 games but did they win the championship that year! i think it speaks volumes on Pippen and Jackson's legacies though,.. and how can a fan of Kobe say Jordan is overrated!!? i wouldn't call Kobe overrated, I'd call him Lucky, though..Jordan certainly played in a tougher era then the players of the past 10-13 years..go watch game tape of the early nineties, late eighties where guards couldnt roam so freely, if steve nash tried to to run under the rim while dribbling he'd be clobbered by 3 players..think about hand-checking also ..only one team in the last 20 years has ever won a title without an-all star big man..and that was the Bulls, 6 times! if you want to count the Pistons then go ahead but I say Sheed and Big Ben were their two must crucial players during that title run.


We never consider that today's rules are much more player friedly than they were in the Jordan era with the disadvantages to the defenses in terms of hand checking, defensive 3 seconds etc.

Jordan arguably would've thrived even better under these circumstances,

knicks_champ
06-01-2011, 10:52 AM
We never consider that today's rules are much more player friedly than they were in the Jordan era with the disadvantages to the defenses in terms of hand checking, defensive 3 seconds etc.

Jordan arguably would've thrived even better under these circumstances,

I'm scared to picture his game in this era. lol

FadeAwayLikeMJ
06-01-2011, 11:20 AM
So a player who wons 11 championships (2 of them as a player coach), 5x MVP, 12x All star, Multiple 1st & 2nd all NBA teams, 2nd all time rebound leader, won NCAA & NBA championship back to back and have the NBA finals MVP named after him is not at least in the discussion of one of the greatest of all time?

:clap::clap:

awesome post

rabzouz 96
06-01-2011, 11:29 AM
The difference between back then and now is that foul calls now consist of putting your hand on a player back then it consist of pushing or tackling somebody. lol

i know, they had to change it, otherwise thered be no more going to the paint, since defenders became so much better at staying in front of you due to the improved athleticism

enserio
06-01-2011, 11:33 AM
Let me adjust stats for all the good players to see what their game would be like back in the old days, because that should settle the argument. WTF?

bedford1829
06-01-2011, 02:03 PM
For the gentleman whose upset about Russell lack of inclusion in this argument I will defend my own position in letting you know that I believe the evaluation of all time greats cannot pose a guard vs. a big. Theres no basis for comparison simc there skill sets and impact on the game are so decidedly different.

While I put Jordan at the head of the guard class, I personally view Russell as the class of the big man argument

Becks2307
06-01-2011, 02:32 PM
To all the people talking about Mj's era being weak, i think this is actually the greatest testament to his greatness. Mj's era wasnt week in the slightest, it was actually very strong, consider most of his era is on the dream team (the best team ever assembled). Its not that the era was week, its that Mj was so amazing he made great players seem ok by comparison. He denied great players so many rings its comical.

JORDAN ****ED UP THE 90S FOR ALOT OF ALL TIME GREATS

there is a reason karl malone never got a ring.

ChicagoJ
06-01-2011, 03:13 PM
I'm glad that pippen is getting some backlash from this. He should be more careful with his words. If you listen to the sound bytes, pip is really just talking like he would to a friend over a cup of coffee. It's not like he's making some major proclamation. He'st just casually talking and may even change his mind a little bit if he were to elaborate. Still, he needs to realize how people view his comments.

Jay16
06-01-2011, 03:27 PM
It's true. Wilt was the best. Nobody will say it cause they will get killed. But Wilt was the best.

Darrell Russell
06-01-2011, 03:54 PM
To all the people talking about Mj's era being weak, i think this is actually the greatest testament to his greatness. Mj's era wasnt week in the slightest, it was actually very strong, consider most of his era is on the dream team (the best team ever assembled). Its not that the era was week, its that Mj was so amazing he made great players seem ok by comparison. He denied great players so many rings its comical.

JORDAN ****ED UP THE 90S FOR ALOT OF ALL TIME GREATS

there is a reason karl malone never got a ring.

Actually jordan's rings all came a year or two after expansion teams were brought into the league. He played in the expansion era which diluted the talent greatly and led to a lot of weak teams.

The best players on the dream team were old like magic and bird, or a rookie like shaq. Jordan didn't win anything while magic, bird, and isiah thomas were in their respective primes. Do you know jordan's playoff record before pippen? 1-10. Do you know how long it took jordan to lead the bulls to a winning record? 4 years. How are you the greatest when it takes that long to even lead a team above 500?

Rentzias
06-01-2011, 04:13 PM
Do you know how long it took jordan to lead the bulls to a winning record? 4 years. How are you the greatest when it takes that long to even lead a team above 500?
C'mon man. Jordan took the Bulls within six wins of .500 his rookie year (for comparison, LBJ went 33-49). He missed 54 games in his 2nd season, and played 25 mpg in the 18 he played at the end of that season. The year after that, they went 40-42. Then Pippen magically came in to play 20 minutes per game and average 7 pts, 2 assists and 3 rebounds and carry Jordan and the Bulls to a 50-32 record. My bad, I mean the next year, Pippen came in with 14-3-6 to carry Michael, who was struggling with a 30-8-8 season.

Darrell Russell
06-01-2011, 04:40 PM
C'mon man. Jordan took the Bulls within six wins of .500 his rookie year (for comparison, LBJ went 33-49). He missed 54 games in his 2nd season, and played 25 mpg in the 18 he played at the end of that season. The year after that, they went 40-42. Then Pippen magically came in to play 20 minutes per game and average 7 pts, 2 assists and 3 rebounds and carry Jordan and the Bulls to a 50-32 record. My bad, I mean the next year, Pippen came in with 14-3-6 to carry Michael, who was struggling with a 30-8-8 season.

Jordan also had a player on his team who was a 20+ ppg scorer, lebron didn't.
Jordan was 21, lebron was straight out of high school.
Can you answer why jordan had a 1-10 playoff record before pippen? Also horace grant, also cartwright.
How are you the greatest when it takes you 4 years to even go above 500?
The year jordan missed those games with injuries, he came back for the playoffs and guess what? got swept as he did so often before he got pippen and horace, two all stars.
Jordan got swept with a 20 ppg scorer, he had help.

Rentzias
06-01-2011, 04:47 PM
Jordan also had a player on his team who was a 20+ ppg scorer, lebron didn't.
Jordan was 21, lebron was straight out of high school.
Can you answer why jordan had a 1-10 playoff record before pippen? Also horace grant, also cartwright.
How are you the greatest when it takes you 4 years to even go above 500?
The year jordan missed those games with injuries, he came back for the playoffs and guess what? got swept as he did so often before he got pippen and horace, two all stars.
Jordan got swept with a 20 ppg scorer, he had help.
Who do you suggest is the greatest then?

Darrell Russell
06-01-2011, 04:49 PM
Who do you suggest is the greatest then?

Kareem, wilt, or magic. Jordan is top 5-10 which is great, but people make it seem like it's blasphemy to say he isn't the greatest, which he isn't.

Rentzias
06-01-2011, 04:54 PM
Kareem, wilt, or magic. Jordan is top 5-10 which is great, but people make it seem like it's blasphemy to say he isn't the greatest, which he isn't.
Jordan is potentially Top 10 huh?
Well, enjoy. You sure your first name isn't Jamarcus?

Darrell Russell
06-01-2011, 04:56 PM
Jordan is potentially Top 10 huh?
Well, enjoy. You sure your first name isn't Jamarcus?

Did i say potentially? You should re-read my post and learn to comprehend.

RaiderLakersA's
06-01-2011, 05:02 PM
I have no problem With anyone who puts wilt, mj, or Russell as the best.

But putting bron anywhere near that convo is fking crazy.

I totally agree and what Kareem wrote had to be said.

By elevating LeBron so quickly we've really cheapened the definition of GOAT. Give the kid time to earn it. He certainly wants to. But I'm sure that LeBron wants to be LEGITIMATELY in the discussion. Don't hand him anything.

Pippen should know better. I'm not sure what his wife is putting on him, but I hope Pip isn't as premature with her as he is on the LeBron crowning.

jamesdoakes403
06-01-2011, 05:31 PM
Jordan is potentially Top 10 huh?
Well, enjoy. You sure your first name isn't Jamarcus?

OT: Just curious, do you even know who Darrell Russell is?

JordansBulls
06-01-2011, 05:56 PM
Jordan also had a player on his team who was a 20+ ppg scorer, lebron didn't.
Jordan was 21, lebron was straight out of high school.
Can you answer why jordan had a 1-10 playoff record before pippen? Also horace grant, also cartwright.
How are you the greatest when it takes you 4 years to even go above 500?
The year jordan missed those games with injuries, he came back for the playoffs and guess what? got swept as he did so often before he got pippen and horace, two all stars.
Jordan got swept with a 20 ppg scorer, he had help.

on why the Bulls from 1986 to 1987 didn't improve by more than 10 games.

Or maybe the Bulls just completed tore apart their rosters and returned in 1987 without their 21ppg, 16ppg, 16ppg and 14 ppg scorers from 1986 leaving Jordan with Charles Oakley as his second option....

I guess it wouldn't have an impact to take 67 ppg out of your lineup when you have Oakley and Paxson.
Usually it's the youngins that bring up the "he's 1-9 without Pippen" argument because it throws away all context. MJ came to a losing franchise...not just a losing team...a losing franchise that had never won anything. The owner didn't know how to win. The GM (who left a year or two later) didn't know how to win. The coach (Kevin Loughery -- one of 3 coaches MJ had in his first 3 seasons) didn't know how to win, the fans (who averaged about 5,000 at the Stadium) didn't know how to win and the players (only one of whom had ever won a championship -- Sam Vincent, as a bench warmer on the 86 Celtics) didn't know how to win.

Tough to turn a whole ORGANIZATION around. Jordan came in producing from the start. People always bring up that Bird won 61 games his first season. That's great but although the C's had a losing record the year prior, they weren't a losing franchise. Auerbach knew what he was doing. The coaching staff knew what they were doing. And the players knew what they were doing. A little known fact -- Jordan's rookie year >> Bird's rookie year.

LB 21.3 pts, 4.5 asts, 10.4 rebs, 1.7 stls, 0.6 blks on 47 fg%
MJ 28.2 pts, 5.9 asts, 6.5 rebs, 2.4 stls, 0.8 blks on 52 fg%

Jordan produced more by a wide margin. He didn't win his first year because the ORGANIZATION wasn't ready yet.

That's a microcosm for his first few years. All this "he's 1-9 without Pippen" means nothing when he was holding it down for years as the only weapon the Bulls had offensively and defensively. How do you think Pippen and Grant had so much time to develop? He went out there and took his lumps every night even though he was severely out manned. No complaints. No threats to the front office that he wanted to be traded. Just business every night.

It took Pippen YEARS to develop into what he became. He had raw talent and work ethic, but he was soft as tissue paper in the beginning. That's why Detroit and New York made a concerted effort to attack him physically. Every year from 1988 through 1993, either the Pistons or the Knicks would come after what they thought was the weak link of the Bulls. How did he go from Charmin to steel? And how did he have so much time to develop without facing the burden of "superstar expectations"?

Because of Jordan. Jordan stood up for him against the Pistons and the Knicks. Jordan took the weight of expectations every night allowing Pippen and Grant to slide out the side door to avoid the crush of media. Jordan kept that team afloat as Scottie went from being soft to inconsistent to more consistent to probably the most versatile player in the league. If Pippen played his first few years somewhere else, he doesn't become the same player. Pippen had the talent and the work ethic, but Jordan gave him that toughness that helped the Bulls win championships.

Let's reverse the roles. Imagine if Pippen was drafted to the Bulls in 1984 and Jordan wasn't drafted until 1987. How many winning seasons would Pippen have without Jordan? Remember, he's playing against Bird's Celtics, Magic's Lakers, Isiah's Pistons, etc. How many playoff games do they win? Let's add in the fact that Pippen would have had to deal with superstar expectations (something he struggled with as late as 1994 -- remember the sit-down incident?). Imagine soft, fragile Pippen dealing with loss after loss after loss and having to explain himself to the Chicago media after every failure. Not the 1994 All-World Pippen...I'm talking about the first few years version of Pippen. He would have folded like an armchair. By the time Jordan arrives in 1987, Pippen is on his way out either by his own desires or the team's.

By the time Pippen took over the team in 1994, he had already been through his rites of passage. Finally pushed the Pistons, Knicks, Sixers, etc back. Won 3 titles. Been to the Dream Team. That Bulls team had everyone back and added Kukoc (who btw, won game 3 against New York on a last second shot despite Pippen's "distraction". Who knows what would have happened had that game gone to overtime.) They had, for the most part, grown up together for years.

What they did was amazing but DIFFERENT than what was accomplished before. It's like MJ started a company from scratch and built it into an empire. The company is flushed with cash and has a great worldwide reputation. Jordan the CEO steps down and Pippen (his assistant) takes over and keeps the business afloat until MJ un-retires. This is a great accomplishment, but IT'S NOT THE SAME AS STARTING THE BUSINESS FROM SCRATCH. Pippen had cash, reputation, a proven "system" and he retained all the financial advisors that MJ hired to keep the business afloat. You're telling me that Pippen could have done this from the start? 1987 Pippen could have built this empire? Or did he learn the ropes from Jordan?

That's what we mean when we say Jordan helped Scott Pippen become SCOTTIE PIPPEN.

No more "Jordan was 1-9 without Pippen". It's complete bulls***.

In 1990 the Bulls without Pippen won game 4 on the road against Barkley's Sixers in a blowout despite Philly having a higher SRS rating than the Bulls that year.
In 1997 the Bulls won game 5 of the ECF with Pippen playing 7 minutes.

Point is is that Jordan could win without Pippen, but you aren't beating all time great teams like the '86 Celtics or '87 Celtics without having a decent cast around you. Not to mention also the Bucks in the 80's swept Boston when Boston had HCA in 1983. So let's not act like he was playing teams even close in talent to the Bulls.



And are you seriously going to compare the teams other top 10 players had in their first 3-4 seasons to the team Jordan had in his first 3-4 seasons? Please do so so everyone can laugh at you. Hysterical that you're trying to act like most of the rest of the top 10 had similarly crappy teams when this is FAR from the case.

Who did the other top 10 players get to the conference finals or beyond with in their first 3 years? Magic had KAJ and others, KAJ had Oscar, Shaq had Penny and Grant, Bird had Parish/McHale and others; Duncan had DRob, Kobe had Shaq, Hakeem had Sampson. Besides, there were ONLY TWO PLAYOFF ROUNDS ANYWAY prior to the Finals before 1983, so if you won the first round, bang, you were in the conference finals. Big deal. Now look at who these players had next to them, then tell me what Jordan had for his first 2-3 full seasons (1985, '87 and '88)? Yeah...exactly.


Magic refused to even play for Chicago saying he would go back to school if drafted by the Bulls.


If you want to know, Bulls were the #1 seed in 1998 thru the first 35 games that Pippen missed during the season and this with a 35 year old leading the team.


Pippen was a 8 ppg and 4 rpg player a game as a rookie including coming off the bench and who finished 9th on the team in Win Shares PER 48 minutes, 7th in Win Shares and 7th in PER in 1988. But let me guess it was the guy who was the rookie and coming off the bench that was the key to the Bulls finishing over .500?

Not to mention he is the only GOAT candidate to go underfeated with HCA and the only GOAT candidate who never played with a guy who won league or finals mvp.

Michael Jordan 24-0 in series with HCA and 25-0 in series with HCA/Top Seed/Same Seed/Higher Seed
Kareem 34-5 in series with HCA
Russell 22-1 in series with HCA
Magic 29-3 in series with HCA
Bird 24-7 in series with HCA
Wilt 13-5 in series with HCA
Hakeem 9-2 in series with HCA and Lost with Same Record in 1993 at 55-27 against Seattle and in 1999 at 31-19 against LA. Thus he is 9-4 in Series with Same Record/HCA




vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams
Jordan: 14-0 (100%)/ 10-0 (100%)
Jabbar: 11-3 (79%)/ 23-2 (92%)
Russell: 10-0 (100%)/ 12-1 (92%)* missed most of series lost
Wilt: 4-3 (57%)/ 9-2 (82%)
Magic: 9-2 (82%)/ 20-1 (95%)
Bird: 10-6 (63%)/ 14-1 (93%)
Olajuwon: 4-0 (100%)/ 5-2 (71%)
Shaq: 11-3 (79%)/ 13-2 (87%)
Duncan: 13-4 (76%)/ 8-0 (100%)

Darrell Russell
06-01-2011, 05:58 PM
If i wanted to read a novel i would go buy a stephen king book

SteveNash
06-01-2011, 08:51 PM
Jordan played better than any 40 year old guard in the history of the game while in Washington.

Let's be real it's much more difficult for guards to play into their 40s than it is for a Center because of a guards reliance on speed and agility which clearly is the first thing for a basketball player to go and one thing that centers can succeed without

Jordan also had around a 5 year break for his career. Stockton was way more impressive at 40 than Jordan was.


The NBA was just starting with Mikan, so someone has to start off. Sorry and the Celtics had the 2nd best record in the league before Russell arrived including the MVP of the league in Cousy. Russell missed a 1/3 of the season and the Celtics still had the best record. They also gained the ROY in Heinsohn who won it over Russell and who also made the allstar team. That team had 3 allstars, 2 first team members, 1 second team member and Russell was not on any of them. Don't be a hypocrite.

Doesn't matter, they both had 0 titles to their name before Mikan/Russell transformed the teams.


Big market and winning organization.

Winning organizations can be made, just look at the Finals. Chicago is a big market.


Yes a 8 ppg and 4 rpg player a game is who puts the team higher including coming off the bench and who finished 9th on the team in Win Shares PER 48 minutes, 7th in Win Shares and 7th in PER. But yeah he was the reason. Get a clue dude.

8PPG, 4RPG. Isn't that the kind of numbers Pete Myers put up when he replaced Jordan after Jordan quit? Yet, Pippen was able to carry the Bulls, losing only 2 fewer games. The only thing that team lacked was getting Jordanesque calls.

It's too bad we don't have advanced stats back then so you could get a clue and see the immediate impact Pippen had.


Archibald made the allstar team in 1980.

Lots of crappy players have made allstar teams.


Pistons would have been great right off the bat with MJ this is why he is #1 all time in PER in the season and playoffs and why is he #1 all time in Win Shares PER 48 minutes in the season and playoffs because he contributed most to winning and the stats prove it. Yeah Russell is great, but when you have 3 members on your team who make the all nba team and allstar game and you aren't on either, then let's not give this guy the credit for the Celtics winning right off the bat.

It's called making your teammates better. That's why Jordan was a career loser without Pippen. It's why he couldn't get it done and UNC without James Worthy carrying him. It's why he was completely awful in Washington. Russell makes teammates look better, Michael cared about making himself look better.


I realize that, he still had a guy win ROY over him and a guy win MVP on his team including two first team members.

And if we were to go back in time and correct voting Russell would have won both. As we've seen this year, winning an MVP award doesn't make you great.


To all the people talking about Mj's era being weak, i think this is actually the greatest testament to his greatness. Mj's era wasnt week in the slightest, it was actually very strong, consider most of his era is on the dream team (the best team ever assembled). Its not that the era was week, its that Mj was so amazing he made great players seem ok by comparison. He denied great players so many rings its comical.

JORDAN ****ED UP THE 90S FOR ALOT OF ALL TIME GREATS

there is a reason karl malone never got a ring.

Yeah, because nothing strengthens a talent pool more than expansion.