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JasonJohnHorn
05-31-2011, 11:43 AM
I've heard a lot of people have continued to suggest that James didnt have the talent required to win, and I am not one to agree with that. So I wonder, since James has been compared to Jordan by Pippen lately, do you think the 2010 Cavs would have had enough to win it all had Jordan been playing for them in his prime instead of James. Or perhaps Kobe?

And for that matter, do you think Pippen would have been able to do more with that roster?

Keep in mind, when Jordan won it all the first time, outside of Pippen and Grant, all he had was an aged Cartwright, Stacey King (whose career dropped off the face of the map when he left chi-town), BJ Armstrong, John Paxson and not much else. There really wasnt that much talent on the team.

As for Pippen, keep in mind that he was one basket away from leading the Bulls to the conference finals when the two best players after him were Kukoc and Grant. The rest of the team was filled with an even older Cartwright, and undersized BJ Artstrong, and really not much else. And he did more with that team than James did in 2010.

James has Anderson Varajoa (who in my opinion is an upgrade from Grant, though I have a great respect for both), they had Shaq (aged) and Big Z (aged), but still a far better center roation than Pippen and Jordan ever played with in chi-town. Antwan Jamison, and Mo-Will, who flawed though he may be, is still a quality PG who seems to me is better than either BJ Armstrong or John Paxon.

I believe that James not 'having' talent is a falacy, and that, despite what some believe he did not 'do it all by himself'. You CANNOT get the best record in the league without some serious talent.


Kobe has always had great talent around him when he one, so that may be more of a question. but i think Kobe would have been able to do more with what James had, than what James did.


Thoughts?

SteBO
05-31-2011, 11:45 AM
Listen, if "Mo Williams" is your second best player, you aren't winning anything in this league. Period. Not even Jordan would win with that.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 11:49 AM
Nobody could have won with that roster. In fact, I am convinced that nobody could have even led that team to near 60 wins.

ManRam
05-31-2011, 11:53 AM
You're overvaluing guys here.

Z and Shaq were statistically worthless in the playoffs.

Anderson is better than Horace Grant? Are you kidding me?

Jamison was probably the best player he ever played with, and Jamison never got comfortable in the system. You can't overlook how terrible he was for Cleveland.

I couldn't disagree with this more. Jordan never played on a team half as weak as LeBron's. You say "outside of Pippen and Grant" like those two guys themselves weren't better than the entire cast of Cleveland...when they are. Those two guys ALONE made Jordan's cast the first three times he won far better. The second time around, he had guys like Kukoc (who I'd take over any on Cleveland the past few years), Harper, Kerr, Harper, RODMAN!, Longly etc. All were perfect players to compliment Jordan AND Pippen. Jordan had a HOFer in his prime for his whole career while he was in his prime. LeBron got Shaq when Shaq couldn't play 20 minutes a game in the playoffs.



Who knows if MJ could have won with that cast. We'll never know because he never won with a cast nearly as poor. If anyone could have, it would be MJ. Kobe struggled mightily when his teams were poor. Pippen isn't taking LeBron's cast half as far as LeBron. I truly believe no one in the history of the league could have won with any of the teams LeBron had in Cleveland.

SteBO
05-31-2011, 11:54 AM
^The fact that that cast won 60+ games twice in row, just shows how good LeBron really is. Jordan is great, greatest of all time, but he would not have won anything with that cast of characters. Not a chance.

SteBO
05-31-2011, 11:58 AM
You're overvaluing guys here.

Z and Shaq were statistically worthless in the playoffs.

Anderson is better than Horace Grant? Are you kidding me?

Jamison was probably the best player he ever played with, and Jamison never got comfortable in the system. You can't overlook how terrible he was for Cleveland.

I couldn't disagree with this more. Jordan never played on a team half as weak as LeBron's. You say "outside of Pippen and Grant" like those two guys themselves weren't better than the entire cast of Cleveland...when they are. Those two guys ALONE made Jordan's cast the first three times he won far better. The second time around, he had guys like Kukoc (who I'd take over any on Cleveland the past few years), Harper, Kerr, Harper, RODMAN!, Longly etc. All were perfect players to compliment Jordan AND Pippen. Jordan had a HOFer in his prime for his whole career while he was in his prime. LeBron got Shaq when Shaq couldn't play 20 minutes a game in the playoffs.



Who knows if MJ could have won with that cast. We'll never know because he never won with a cast nearly as poor. If anyone could have, it would be MJ. Kobe struggled mightily when his teams were poor. Pippen isn't taking LeBron's cast half as far as LeBron. I truly believe no one in the history of the league could have won with any of the teams LeBron had in Cleveland.
I never understood why Z and Shaq were even brought up. How old was Shaq then, 38? Z is hardly playing now, and wasn't a factor for the entire second half of last year.

LeBron never had anyone close to Pippen on his side, that's impact wise and statistically speaking. Anderson Varajeo is nothing more than a hustle guy, that can rebound. How did he get his points? LeBron. How did Mo Williams get most of his points? LeBron. Jamison? LeBron. Need I go on?

Chronz
05-31-2011, 12:00 PM
Prior to this year Bron had played with ZERO All-NBA Talents and no true All-Star aside from Big Z (thats when he made the Finals), that should answer your question

godolphins
05-31-2011, 12:11 PM
Kobe? He can't take a team far without another star player on his team. Exhibit A: Shaq. Exhibit B: Gasol
Pippen: Heck no
MJ: With the cast Lebron had: No

Mo Williams: Average PG
Varejo: Hustle player
Shaq: Old
Big Z: Old
Jamison: Didn't even fit in the system

theheatles
05-31-2011, 12:21 PM
none...michael jordan, babe ruth and jesus christ are the 3 most overrated humans in the history of earths existence

DeyAce
05-31-2011, 12:26 PM
Jordan would have won with that group.

DeyAce
05-31-2011, 12:27 PM
none...michael jordan, babe ruth and jesus christ are the 3 most overrated humans in the history of earths existence

your funny mr. bandwagon

Eagles4Lyfe
05-31-2011, 12:31 PM
There's always an argument for something and i don't feel liek having 1 page long arguments again so I'll just say, he had a capable team of winning but didn't have the offensive strategies provided by their coach to do so.
They had the defensive game Pat, but the offensive game was in shambles nuff said

Heater4life
05-31-2011, 12:31 PM
Jordan would have won with that group.

Yea. An early exit.

beasted86
05-31-2011, 12:32 PM
I would really love to know who in their right mind voted Kobe?

1) Kobe got swept with this year's team which is way more talented than the 2010 Cavs. Doesn't that speak volumes?

2) That voter is basically saying the 2010 Cavs had a better supporting cast than Kobe's own real life team, the 2010 Lakers who DID actually win it all. Moron.

ManRam
05-31-2011, 12:35 PM
Jordan would have won with that group.

How you can back that up? Jordan never won with a cast that poor, and he lost a lot of years with casts WAY better.

Storch
05-31-2011, 12:35 PM
I hate Lebron, but cmon now. No one can win with that cavs team, no one. Unless Lebron had an all-star next to him then it would be a different story.

znick21
05-31-2011, 12:36 PM
jordan absolutely would have won a championship with the 09 or 10 cavs squad. i'm sick of hearing this argument nobody could win with the cast that lebron had. if that is true than how the **** did they win so much? absolutely dominated the regular season (i don't care what anyone says, that means something), they made it to one finals and an eastern conference finals (which they should have won). sure they may not have been the greatest offensive team ever assembled, but nobody ever mentions how great of a defensive team they were, which everyone knows championships are based off of. the difference between lebron and jordan is that jordan could will his team to victory in games that mattered and lebron couldn't. lebron is a greater physical specimen than jordan for sure, but jordan is and always will be 10 times the player than lebron.

if lebron really wanted to be the greatest ever he never should have quit on cleveland. because according to all you heat fans, those cavs teams were the worst teams ever assembled, who yet somehow almost every year were so close to winning a title, which if they were able to, would trump jordan's six.

Heater4life
05-31-2011, 12:36 PM
There's always an argument for something and i don't feel liek having 1 page long arguments again so I'll just say, he had a capable team of winning but didn't have the offensive strategies provided by their coach to do so.
They had the defensive game Pat, but the offensive game was in shambles nuff said

I think the Heats role players provide as much depth and talent as those Cavs teams.

Mo Williams
Jamison
Z
Anderson
Anthony Parker
Delonte

or

Mario Chalmers
Mike Bibby
Mike Miller
Udonis Haslem
James Jones
Joel Anthony

Not that much of a drop off really. aside from Mo Williams, id say Miamis role players are better.

Storch
05-31-2011, 12:37 PM
Kobe? He can't take a team far without another star player on his team. Exhibit A: Shaq. Exhibit B: Gasol
Pippen: Heck no
MJ: With the cast Lebron had: No

Mo Williams: Average PG
Varejo: Hustle player
Shaq: Old
Big Z: Old
Jamison: Didn't even fit in the system

This is just straight trolling. Are you serious? You have 3 superstars in your team none of which ever won anything without another star player next to them. That's straight Kobe hate.

Heater4life
05-31-2011, 12:39 PM
jordan absolutely would have won a championship with the 09 or 10 cavs squad. i'm sick of hearing this argument nobody could win with the cast that lebron had. if that is true than how the **** did they win so much? absolutely dominated the regular season (i don't care what anyone says, that means something), they made it to one finals and an eastern conference finals (which they should have won). sure they may not have been the greatest offensive team ever assembled, but nobody ever mentions how great of a defensive team they were, which everyone knows championships are based off of. the difference between lebron and jordan is that jordan could will his team to victory in games that mattered and lebron couldn't. lebron is a greater physical specimen than jordan for sure, but jordan is and always will be 10 times the player than lebron.

if lebron really wanted to be the greatest ever he never should have quit on cleveland. because according to all you heat fans, those cavs teams were the worst teams ever assembled, who yet somehow almost every year were so close to winning a title, which if they were able to, would trump jordan's six.

THEY SUCKED!!!!!! THEY SUCKED!!!!!!! WHAT DONT YOU GET????

Lebron WAS that team. He was the SOLE reason they had some success.

PERIOD!

Storch
05-31-2011, 12:39 PM
I think the Heats role players provide as much depth and talent as those Cavs teams.

Mo Williams
Jamison
Z
Anderson
Anthony Parker
Delonte

or

Mario Chalmers
Mike Bibby
Mike Miller
Udonis Haslem
James Jones
Joel Anthony

Not that much of a drop off really. aside from Mo Williams, id say Miamis role players are better.

Why are you comparing Miami's role players to the cavs? Does the world revolve around the heat for you? You got 3 superstars in that team :laugh2: People these days :facepalm:

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 12:40 PM
Why are you comparing Miami's role players to the cavs? Does the world revolve around the heat for you? You got 3 superstars in that team :laugh2: People these days :facepalm:

chill out and stick to the topic.

Heater4life
05-31-2011, 12:41 PM
This is just straight trolling. Are you serious? You have 3 superstars in your team none of which ever won anything without another star player next to them. That's straight Kobe hate.

Maybe you didnt like how he said it, but its not a lie. Kobe HASNT won without another complimentary piece. Its not a knock on Kobe, it just speaks to how difficult it is to win without help in a team game. The applies for all great players.

beasted86
05-31-2011, 12:42 PM
chill out and stick to the topic.

Can one of you admins or mods please change the poll to allow viewing of votes?

Cause like I said, I'm baffled by the person who thinks Kobe would have beat himself on the Lakers if he was playing for the Cavs.

mttwlsn16
05-31-2011, 12:43 PM
Thoughts?

:puke: your sig
that is my thoughts

Heater4life
05-31-2011, 12:44 PM
Why are you comparing Miami's role players to the cavs? Does the world revolve around the heat for you? You got 3 superstars in that team :laugh2: People these days :facepalm:

Because im trying to put Clevelands role players into a perspective for comparison. Dont we lack a bench? Thats my point, Cleveland wasnt that talented.

avrpatsfan
05-31-2011, 12:44 PM
I think Lebron could have won with that cast, but not Jordan. That's how good Lebron is. Lebron could surpass Jordan if he wins 6 championships. Jordan couldn't have on 60 games with that cast, but Lebron did.

jockrider
05-31-2011, 12:45 PM
I think the Heats role players provide as much depth and talent as those Cavs teams.

Mo Williams
Jamison
Z
Anderson
Anthony Parker
Delonte

or

Mario Chalmers
Mike Bibby
Mike Miller
Udonis Haslem
James Jones
Joel Anthony

Not that much of a drop off really. aside from Mo Williams, id say Miamis role players are better.

the cavs role players are much better,the worst role player on the cavs is arguably than better every player you have listed on miamis list.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 12:47 PM
the cavs role players are much better,the worst role player on the cavs is arguably better every player you have listed on miamis list.

who would you consider the role players on the Lakers for instance?

Heater4life
05-31-2011, 12:50 PM
the cavs role players are much better,the worst role player on the cavs is arguably than better every player you have listed on miamis list.

Miamis role players are far from great, but those two sets of role players are more than comparable. Apparently defense doesnt factor into a players overall talent.

im not trying to be biased, look at anyother sets of role players. lakers for example.

beasted86
05-31-2011, 12:58 PM
Basically this is all it boils down to for all the haters who dislike LeBron and want to let that skew their judgement on how good the Cavs were...


Okay, so for everyone saying in 2010 LeBron could have won with that Cavs team... basically you are saying LeBron >>>>>>> Kobe. Because I don't think there's anyone on this forum who can't say Kobe had a far better supporting cast, and a better coach on the 2010 Lakers who DID actually win. If you think LeBron had enough to win, you are saying the Cavs could have beat the Lakers in the Finals that year.

So in essence, you are saying LeBron is that much of a difference from Kobe, and he is THAT much better to pick up the slack in the talent disparity between the two teams.

JordansBulls
05-31-2011, 01:04 PM
2009 for sure with all the injuries that stars had in the playoffs. No Garnett, No Nelson, No Manu, no Mcgrady nor Yao to name a few.

there was no excuse for losing to Orlando in 2009.
And I love how everyone says what Lebron had, but Let's consider the talent Dwight had.
The Wizards they have a franchise player in John Wall plus they acquired Rashard Lewis and they are one of the worst teams in the league. I think what is interesting is that it shows the talent Dwight was working with as well as it shows he really didn't have much to work with. Rafer and Courtney Lee (Nets had the worse record and won 12 games last year when that was Dwight's starting backcourt), Hedo (on the Raptors had one of the worst records even with Bosh around), Lewis (on the Wizards with one of the worst records.) and that was Dwight's starting lineup when he beat Lebron without HCA. Rafer, Lee, Hedo, Lewis with Dwight himself.

The fact of the matter is Lebron had more proven guys than Dwight had and actually had guys who were instrumental in leading teams to titles in Ben Wallace (who he had in 2008/2009) and Shaq in 2010. Now those guys obviously werent the same players, but veteran leadership is more important than having a bunch of no names in Rafer and Lee in your lineup.

Also the big reason the Cavs were favorites over the C's, was that they won 11 more games, but also if you remember in 2008 the Cavs cast was terrible and Lebron played bad against Boston and shot 35% in that series and it still went 7 games and this when Boston was clearly better. In 2010 the Cavs were much better than they were in 2008 and Boston was inferior to what they were in 2008 (Boston to boston here) and yet the C's won this series when every analyst predicted the Cavs to win.

Not to mention the Celtics didn't have one player who made the All NBA Team in 2010.

http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/stats/2009/conf_semi_stats.html

Also the Cavs had the same amount of players that averaged in double figures as the Celtics did this season and the Cavs had the HCA.

Not to mention that Lebron's team shot a better FG% than he did. 44.9 to 44.7.

JordansBulls
05-31-2011, 01:11 PM
How you can back that up? Jordan never won with a cast that poor, and he lost a lot of years with casts WAY better.

No he did not. He won his first title without an allstar. And the teams he lost to always had deeper teams and a better record. Jordan was undefeated in series with HCA. Not to mention he never had anyone more proven than he was on his team. At least Ben Wallace was on the team who had already led a Detroit team to a title and Shaq who led a team to 3 titles as the man.

So if people are going to mention the Bulls having a 35-37 year old Rodman who never made an allstar team with the team, then I certainly can mention Ben Wallace.

Rodman had a 13.6, 13.9 and 12.4 PER on the Bulls as well as a .143, .148 and .131 WS/48

Ben Wallace had a 12.4, 12.2 and .138 WS/48 on the Cavs.

Rodman was 35-37 while Wallace was 33, 34 on the Cavs

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastStandings

#1 Cavs 61-21
#2 Boston 57-25
#3 Orlando 56-26



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastChamps

Cavs - 32 Votes
Celtics - 13 votes
Orlando - 8 votes


NBA Champion for 2009-2010

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-NBAChamps

Lakers - 19 votes
Cavs - 18 votes
Spurs - 8 votes
Celtics - 5 votes
Orlando - 3 votes


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/preview2009/news/story?page=Predictions0910-Cavaliers



Last year's collapse in the Eastern Conference finals only made LeBron hungrier and more willing to expand his game. Now, opponents can expect to see him in the post more. Scary. And look for a resurgence from a truly motivated Shaq.




The Cavs were the best team in the East before collapsing against the Magic, and they've gotten even stronger in the offseason. Shaq and Anthony Parker should help shore up their bench. Still, they lack the athletic bigs to match up with the Magic in a seven-game series.




http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/CavsvsCeltics2010Playoffs.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/matchup/_/teams/celtics-cavaliers

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/playoffs/clebos

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/playoffs/secondround;_ylt=AnmpDvBsuAcJTM92uhMGAuWmxMEF


And let's not forget even with superstar talent on the olympic and FIBA team he didn't win gold on two separate occassions.

Baller1
05-31-2011, 01:13 PM
I voted for Jordan, but I was torn between that and "none of the above". I think a prime Jordan would have had a chance to do it, but even that's a stretch.

His supporting cast was atrocious. And what people seem to forget is that it was even worse when the playoffs rolled around.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 01:16 PM
I voted for Jordan, but I was torn between that and "none of the above". I think a prime Jordan would have had a chance to do it, but even that's a stretch.

His supporting cast was atrocious. And what people seem to forget is that it was even worse when the playoffs rolled around.

That's just it. Some here bring up all the stats, numbers, point differentials, HCA, etc, and attempt to use it.

Bring up the Cav's individual playoff numbers. His roster sucked. Badly.

JordansBulls
05-31-2011, 01:16 PM
I voted for Jordan, but I was torn between that and "none of the above". I think a prime Jordan would have had a chance to do it, but even that's a stretch.

His supporting cast was atrocious. And what people seem to forget is that it was even worse when the playoffs rolled around.

If anyone it would be MJ. He has 6 series in playoff history where he averaged over 40+ ppg.

Other guys in the league today would be Hakeem and Kareem and that is simply because there would be no centers to match them in the playoffs.

Purple&Gold24
05-31-2011, 01:18 PM
I voted kobe :D lol

JordansBulls
05-31-2011, 01:19 PM
That's just it. Some here bring up all the stats, numbers, point differentials, HCA, etc, and attempt to use it.

Bring up the Cav's individual playoff numbers. His roster sucked. Badly.

Go check game 5 last year when Lebron was 3-14 and scored 15 points in the pivotal game vs Boston and when Shaq had 21 points on 7-11.

It is always an excuse for Lebron. He had the best record both years. Don't give me he doesn't have a number 2. Dirk is a guy who doesn't have a number 2, but how often does he get excuses made for him?

The fact of the matter is Lebron pretty much got Jamison for free as Big Z came back to the team and then he added Shaq (1x league mvp and 3 finals mvp's) without giving up anything really.
Jamison a career 20 and 8 player and was getting that this season on the Wizards. Shaq last year a 17 and 7 player and Mo was a 17 and 6 player before playing with Lebron.

No excuses, the Cavs were heavily favorite both years.

Maybe Lebron should stop being ball dominant and trying to get his points and numbers early on in the game against bad teams and get others going.

I said from the beginning, that Lebron needed to play like he did in game 1 of the Bulls vs Cavs series for the Cavs to succeed. Once he started dominating the ball, the Cavs were done.



Lebron doesn't have a shot. He has already lost in the finals,
doesn't get high tv ratings(like Jordan), has lost with the best record in the league/hca, has a poor attitude. Bron could win 4 rings and 4 MVP's and he still wouldn't crack the top 5.
Plus you have to consider this is now a so-so NBA era that lacks any real
dominant big men besides Dwight Howard.


Lebron lost with HCA. MJ never lost with HCA.

IMO there are only a few times where the STAR PLAYER get the critism.

1.) Losing a Series with HCA.
2.) Playing bad and someone else on your team plays better
3.) Losing in the finals.


Every other superstar player that was on a good team ended up losing with HCA as
well and to teams much inferior at that. That's the whole point of it. If you have HCA you should win the series.



http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=26749



Josh (Los Angeles, CA): The Cavs didn?t match up well with Orlando, now all of a sudden Big Z (PER 18.03), Mo (17.25) and Delonte (14.16) aren't a good supporting cast and Rashard (16.83), Hedo (14.82), and Pietrus (11.69) are studs?


http://a.espncdn.com/i/sn2.gif Chad Ford: It's the style of play. The way the Magic spread the floor was a challenge for guys like Ben Wallace and Z to guard. When Varejao got in foul trouble, they struggled to keep up.





Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=OffseasonPredictions09-EastChamps)





Cleveland Cavaliers (32 votes)

This thing is Cleveland's to lose, says our panel -- or 60.4 percent of our panel, anyway.

It's no surprise to see so many votes for a team that has the reigning MVP and won 66 games last season. On the other hand, the Cavs had the same points in their favor in May, and were the heavy favorites to win the East at that time, too. But Orlando took care of Cleveland thanks to some amazing shooting and the dominance of Dwight Howard, and the Cavs were left licking their wounds.



For those saying the Cavs aren't suppose to win, then answer this?

Source: ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090512)

[quote]
1. Cleveland (+9.12)
Welcome to the Cleveland Invitational, ladies and gentlemen. Yes, the Pistons had given up and the Hawks had injuries, but the fact is the Cavs have won eight straight playoff games by double figures. In this case it's a continuation of the Cavs' strong finish to the season, and it doesn't appear either Boston or Orlando has the goods to make them sweat much in a conference finals.

Cleveland also has home-court advantage going for it in the final two rounds, so at this point the Cavs have to be considered a heavy favorite to win the championship. They're playing the best basketball, have the best draw, have home-court and have the best player. They still have to play the games, of course, but the skids have already been greased. While the likes of Denver or L.A. could give them a tough fight in the Finals, at this point it appears that the only team that can beat Cleveland is Cleveland.


Looks like the Cavs were heavy favorites.


So they played a team that gave up in the Pistons and one who was injured in Atlanta and now it is being said that neither Boston or Orlando will make them sweat. So who the hell is supposed to win it all if it isn't Cleveland?


Dirk gets critisizm for losing with a team that won over 65+ games and didn't win the title does he not?


http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagicSeries.jpg

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/th_CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg

http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o165/JordansBulls/CavsvsMagic2009Playoffs.jpg

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/matchup/_/teams/magic-cavaliers



Source: Yahoosports (http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-10-best-teams-of-the-decade-never-to-win-a-c;_ylt=Ai8j0I4kfnCFSrGgLh3xx7q8vLYF?urn=nba,184569 )



1. Cleveland Cavaliers, 2008-09

I sort of like this also-ran, because it speaks to how we've grown as a sport-regarding culture over the years. These Cleveland Cavaliers ran up 66-wins, an almost-Bulls-like 8.9-point differential (way better than any team listed above), and had the greatest player in the game (LeBron James(notes)) at their disposal. And yet, when the team lost to the Orlando Magic in the Eastern Conference finals last spring, people seemed ready to smartly admit that the Cavs, for all their horses, just didn't have the horses to run with the Magic.

Nobody was labeled a choker, nobody was fired, and though the team traded for one big (hopeful) problem-solver in the offseason in Shaquille O'Neal, nobody seemed to overreact and make deals for the sake of making deals. Knowing that the team will have the best player in the game, at only age 24, around for at least the next season helps too; but you have to love the lack of hand-wringing. Still, the meek ending doesn't hide the fact that this was an otherwise dominant team that won 74 of its first 90 games before falling to the Magic in six.



In fact only 2 teams that have won 65+ games have not won the title and it was the 2007 Mavs and 1973 Celtics and now the 2009 Cavs.

These other teams all won the title.
2009 Lakers
2008 Celtics
2000 Lakers
1997 Bulls
1996 Bulls
1992 Bulls
1987 Lakers
1986 Celtics
1983 Sixers
1972 Lakers
1971 Bucks
1967 Sixers


Sure MJ has. He has 6 playoff series over 40+ ppg. He won the title in 1991 without having another allstar on the team.



While Lebron had another allstar on the team. This with Orlando missing it's star PG as well.



Lebron just lost with HCA and the superior supporting cast. He averaged 15.67 FTA a game in that series where he shot 94 FT in 6 games.

Bulls not only in 1991 but 1998 was the finest example won the title and this with Pippen missing over half the season on a bad foot and Bulls win 62 games. Pippen also has a bad back as well in the finals.


You say the Cavs didn't show up, well guess what, Lebron gets all the credit last year for taking the Celtics 7 games when he shot 35% from the field.

This year the Cavs underachieved in losing to Orlando who wasn't getting any publicity and who many thought would go down in round 1.


Also MJ never lost with HCA something Lebron just did on a 66 win team.


So Lebron had another allstar on the team, another 3 former allstars, a 4x DPOY player, a team top 4 in defensive and offensive efficiency, the team with the highest SRS rating all year long as well as the team who had the highest point differential all year long and then won it's first two series by more than 10+ points per game, but yet they weren't the favorite to beat Orlando who was missing it's star PG and whose SG was playing injured?

Hilarious!!!


Not even One analyst said the Magic would win.

In fact it was so bad that in games 3 and 4 in Orlando that the Cavs were a 2 point favorite on the road.

The Cavs had the best record all year, they had the highest point differential in winning, they had the highest SRS rating.

In the playoffs they won the first 2 rounds by 10+ points in every game and even in the playoffs the Cavs had a 8.5 pts per game differential which was the highest in the postseason that year.

The Cavs were cruising while the Magic were getting outplayed and down in the series to the Sixers initially and the Celtics without KG and then you expect me to believe that Orlando was the better team all along? I just don't buy that all and really it is just an excuse because the Cavs lost. Also lets not forget the Cavs were up each game at home of the 3 games by more than 20+ points each time.


So when I said it was on Lebron I meant in the sense that not that he played bad but that he was the leader of the team and Your leader shouldn't allow you to blow 20+ point leads in the playoffs at home especially when you go 39-2 at home all year. That is more or less why I said it was on Lebron.


Let's make something clear here, I never said Lebron played bad statistically in the series,

however him defending the worst offensive player on the court on Orlando made for a bad strategy.

Because who was Lebron guarding the series? Was he not guarding Rafer Alston? Why is he guarding someone that doesn't play his position when the guy who plays his position is an offensive threat? Because of that that allowed Hedo to shoot over his man. Lebron has to take fault for that.

He could have easily taken Hedo out of the game especially when the Cavs were up 20+ points in each of it's 3 home games.


Source: NBA.com (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_081205.html)


Do you think in the end the one true comparison that will distinguish (Jordan and LeBron) is of course championships and awards records, etc., but the way Michael made people around him become better of course, but more specifically, Scottie Pippen.
Scottie did pull off some great moves that took extrordinary talent, but his ability to learn might have been the extraordinary part. Can LeBron create a Scottie Pippen type player or was Scottie an extension of MJ? All I know is these two together created some of the best and most extensive set of highlight reels man has ever known, some will say LeBron will need his Phil Jackson, and his Scottie Pippen.




Sam: It's starting to look like LeBron is about there,
and he may not need to turn someone into a Hall of Famer, as Jordan did for Pippen.
The league is not as strong or deep now, and I had a GM tell me this week he not only believes the Cavs will win the East, he thinks they'll win it all. And if that does
happen (remember, hardly anyone was picking the Bulls in 1991), it may mess up a lot of free agency plans as the likelihood is LeBron then stays in Cleveland.


And of course I am not comparing Lebron to MJ. Lebron didn't show up in the finals and had one of the worst finals ever and he also had 11 allstars on the team USA and ended up with 2 bronze medals as well.

Lebron had plenty of help on his team this year. He had another allstar in Mo Williams. He had a top 4 defensive rating and offensive rated team. The team had the highest SRS rating which means the strength by which you beat your opponents by. They had the highest point differential in the season and in the playoffs.

That team was the best team in the league that got upset by an inferior opponent.

So tell me who was the favorite to win the series between Orlando and Cleveland?



Let's not forget that Lebron plays well against Bad teams. He had over a 44.5 PER thru the first two rounds mainly because the other teams starters were just terrible. Case in point, Tayshaun Prince had a negative win shares amount and had a negative PER. PER is set at 15 for the average starter and for someone who starts to get a negative PER goes to show how bad they were. Thus Lebron was able to do what he does best and that is stat pad his numbers. That is why it hurt them later on.

And he certainly padded his stats against Detroit and Atlanta.


Good stats don't mean jack when you lose series with HCA and you are the heavy favorite to win the series. Just like MJ would have gotten the blame in 1988 had we lost to Cleveland because we had the HCA and the game went to the deciding game and this despite him averaging over vs. Cleveland, 1988: 45 pts/5 reb/5 ast/53% FG
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I'll give you an example. The Bulls were 0-6 against the Cavs in 1989. Cavs were title contenders and we were barely making the playoffs. MJ proceeds to average over 40 ppg in that series and we win the series in 5 on the road on a game winner by MJ. Even the year before where we had HCA, MJ averaged over 45 ppg in that series and we went the distance and won game 5 at home.

Now you look at MJ's history and you see that whenever he had a team that won more games than the other or even that won the same number of games, he ALWAYS won the series. Essentially speaking MJ never lost a series with HCA.

Oh and you say Mo didn't show up, he still averaged 18 ppg. Hell let's look at what other guys did on some titles the Bulls won. MJ's next best player averages 15 ppg on 34% fg in the finals in 1996 and we win. He averages 16 ppg on 41% in the 1998 finals.
How is that any worse than what Mo did?

Oh and the Cavs were up by 20+ in every home game, how the hell can you blame the cast for that? If you are getting 20+ point leads at home your damn cast gotta be good especially if you have had that lead in each home game in the series.
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The Cavs were not bad period.

1) They nearly beat the Sixers the last game of the season with the Sixers playing all of there best players the entire game and the Cavs were doing this with 3 starters out and 2 others playing less than 20 minutes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why things would have been different

1) Cavs had a 20 point lead in each of it's home games. There is no way in hell you get up by 20+ points in each home game in the conference finals without being a good team.

2) There is no reason why Lebron should have defended Rafer for most of the games at home. Rafer does not play well on the road period and most of the time doesn't play well. Another reason why this wasn't good it left Mo Williams and Delonte West to defend Lee and Hedo guys who were simply bigger than they were and thus they could shoot right over Mo Williams and Delonte West.

3) Lebron passed off on the last possession with the team down 1 point. When you are the star and your team is down and you are not up in the series, you take the shot.

4) Lebron held the ball too long on possessions. I know he did nearly everything, but it would have been quite different with a set offense then just passing the rock and expecting guys to hit shots with 4 seconds left on the shot clock when they hadn't touched the ball the entire possession.

5) Lebron simply needed to score 50+ in that game 1. He was hot, he needed to make sure the Cavs got that game.




http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290520005 - Mentions 15 at the half, but it was 20 at one point.

http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290522005 - Down by 23 in the second quarter the Magic were within 12 at halftime.


http://espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=290528005 - The Magic overcame a 22-point deficit but missed their first opportunity to close out the Cavaliers


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One other thing about Playoff Win Shares and PER. Dirk had a higher PER and Win Shares in 2006 in the postseason than Wade, but would you say he was better when Wade won without HCA and beat Dirk in the finals?

Only thing that really matters is the finals. Playoffs come 2nd.


Hell Jerry West averaged 37.9 ppg in the finals in 1969 and he and Wilt get the blame for losing to the Celtics because the were heavy favorites in that series.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1969.htm#


------------------------------------------

Too bad Lebron lost with HCA and couldn't even win a gold medal with this lineup

http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fe/06_wcm/scheResu/p/eventid/3507/gamename/A/groupname/75/langlc/en/roundid/5152/fe_scheStat_boxScor.html




Greece 101, USA 95

4 J. Johnson - Star
5 K. Hinrich
6 L. James - Superstar
7 A. Jamison - Star
8 S. Battier
9 D. Wade - Superstar
10 C. Paul - Superstar
11 C. Bosh - Star
12 D. Howard - Superstar
13 B. Miller
14 E. Brand
15 C. Anthony - Superstar




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_FIBA_World_Championship

If he couldn't win with this team:

Carmelo Anthony
Carlos Boozer
Tim Duncan
Allen Iverson
LeBron James
Richard Jefferson
Stephon Marbury
Shawn Marion
Lamar Odom
Emeka Okafor
Amare Stoudemire
Dwyane Wade

What makes you think he could win with a star?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's say Lebron had Iverson instead of Mo Williams, how do they do? Do they necessarily win with a guy that is a top 35 player all time instead?

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The problem was that Cleveland didn't take Orlando seriously. It took Orlando 7 games to beat a KG less Boston team and Cleveland had won it's first 8 games by 10+ points each. Thus they overlooked Orlando and figured it was going to be easy especially with Jameer not playing as well.

Lebron very well may have had to average over 40 ppg in that series to win it, but he didn't. It is just like in 1969 Jerry West, Wilt and Baylor all get the blame for losing to the Celtics because they were the favorite and had the HCA despite West averaging nearly 39 ppg in that series.

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Orlando made the finals with the worst backcourt of all time. How the hell do you make the finals with Rafer Alston and Courtney Lee (a rookie) as your starting backcourt?

People talk about Lebron's cast, but then fail to mention the cast Dwight had in 2009. Rafer and Lee was his starting backcourt. When they went to New Jersey that team won 12 games. Rashard Lewis was his PF and now on the Wizards with a franchise player in Wall that team has won like 13 games now. And then Hedo was on the Raptors and Suns and had absolutely no impact.
When you put it together Dwight's lineup was Rafer, Lee, Hedo, Lewis



Those guys didn't play well because they hardly ever had the ball. If you go back and watch the series vs Orlando you will hear Doug Collins mentioning how Lebron has the ball in his hands 16-18 seconds every possession. Your teammmates aren't going to perform well when that happens. And Dwight's cast was equally as bad.

Realistically who were the contenders in 2009?

Lakers obviously but outside of them, not reallly anyone else as Manu was out for San Antonio, tmac/Yao for the Rockets, KG for the Celtics and Nelson for the Magic.
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This year Cleveland was the favorite from the get go and even more so mid way thru the year. Cleveland won 66 games and Orlando won 59 games. Cleveland had the HCA and was the heavy favorites to win the east with Garnett out. Now had the Celtics been healthy that is one thing, but Orlando hadn't proved anything in any other postseason. So dont tell me they were supposed to win this series.

Also Orlando was doing this without their star pg in Nelson who was the 2nd best player on the team. Cleveland lost 2 games at home this year and really only 1 as the last game of the year none of the starters played. And think of it, they still took the 6th seed to OT with not one starter playing.


It's amazing Orlando won with that backcourt and won missing it's 2nd best player. I thought Orlando would lose in 4 or 5 with how good Cleveland was doing and how much Orlando struggled with Philly and a KG less Celtics. I thought Orlando only had a chance to take it 7 with a healthy Jameer.


I don't what hear about someone not having a good supporting cast when they had the best record in the league and broke a record in the playoffs winning it's first 8 games by 10+ points each game.
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2008-2009 Predictions - Eastern Conference

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=eastoffseasonpredictions

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=ConferenceChamps-080911


2008-09 PREDICTIONS: EASTERN CONFERENCE CHAMPS
RANK TEAM PREDICTED RECORD VOTES
1 Boston Celtics 55-27 (.671) 17
2 Cleveland Cavaliers 50-32 (.610) 6
3 Philadelphia Sixers 47-35 (.573) 2



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=NBAChamps-080911

1 Los Angeles Lakers 55-27 (.671) 12
2 New Orleans Hornets 54-28 (.659) 6
3 Boston Celtics 55-27 (.671) 4
4 Houston Rockets 53-29 (.646) 2
5 Cleveland Cavaliers 50-32 (.610) 1





Last year's collapse in the Eastern Conference finals only made LeBron hungrier and more willing to expand his game. Now, opponents can expect to see him in the post more. Scary. And look for a resurgence from a truly motivated Shaq.




The Cavs were the best team in the East before collapsing against the Magic, and they've gotten even stronger in the offseason. Shaq and Anthony Parker should help shore up their bench. Still, they lack the athletic bigs to match up with the Magic in a seven-game series.

SteBO
05-31-2011, 01:22 PM
jordan absolutely would have won a championship with the 09 or 10 cavs squad. i'm sick of hearing this argument nobody could win with the cast that lebron had. if that is true than how the **** did they win so much? absolutely dominated the regular season (i don't care what anyone says, that means something), they made it to one finals and an eastern conference finals (which they should have won). sure they may not have been the greatest offensive team ever assembled, but nobody ever mentions how great of a defensive team they were, which everyone knows championships are based off of. the difference between lebron and jordan is that jordan could will his team to victory in games that mattered and lebron couldn't. lebron is a greater physical specimen than jordan for sure, but jordan is and always will be 10 times the player than lebron.

if lebron really wanted to be the greatest ever he never should have quit on cleveland. because according to all you heat fans, those cavs teams were the worst teams ever assembled, who yet somehow almost every year were so close to winning a title, which if they were able to, would trump jordan's six.
That team was a good "regular season" team, but they were far from a good playoff team. I said this before, that CLE team was realistically the 3rd best team in the east, behind ORL and BOS. LeBron was everything to the Cavs, and 42% of the Cavs' offense came from him and him alone. It shows how great LeBron was there, it had nothing to do with the role players. LeBron would not have won a damn thing with that cast, and he sure wasn't going to sign a 6-year deal to stay there when they had cap flexibility and not an impact player around him to speak of. When that deal is over, he'd be 31-years old with no rings. PERIOD!

beasted86
05-31-2011, 01:23 PM
2009 for sure with all the injuries that stars had in the playoffs. No Garnett, No Nelson, No Manu, no Mcgrady nor Yao to name a few.

there was no excuse for losing to Orlando in 2009.
And I love how everyone says what Lebron had, but Let's consider the talent Dwight had.

Wait, are you really trying to make a case for Orlando having less talent outside of Dwight than the Cavs did outside of LeBron? I doubt you'll find any sensible posters on here agreeing with that.

Instead of pulling regular season stats, how about how those guys stepped up in the playoffs on each respective team?

And as I said earlier, people aren't looking at the other conference. I keep seeing comparisons to this year's Heat, Celtics, Magic, etc... how about a comparison to the actual team that ACTUALLY WON the championship?

This thread wasn't asking if the Cavs should have made it out of the East, it's asking if he could have won a championship with the team. Someone please do a talent/coaching comparison against the Lakers with somehow the Cavs having more so I can laugh at it.

Raoul Duke
05-31-2011, 01:24 PM
I think this is a bad comparison because that team was built around Lebron James. Jordan is not a gigantic small forward, so it's sort of wierd to just swap the players with the exact same rosters and try to look at it like it's apples to apples.

JordansBulls
05-31-2011, 01:25 PM
Wait, are you really trying to make a case for Orlando having less talent outside of Dwight than the Cavs did outside of LeBron?

I doubt you'll find any sensible posters on here agreeing with that.

And as I said earlier, people aren't looking at the other conference. I keep seeing comparisons to this year's Heat, Celtics, Magic, etc... how about a comparison to the actual team that ACTUALLY WON the championship?

This thread wasn't asking if the Cavs should have made it out of the East, it's asking if he could have won a championship with the team. Someone please do a talent/coaching comparison against the Lakers with somehow the Cavs having more so I can laugh at it.

The Cavs generally dominated the Lakers those years. Not to mention the Lakers struggled to get by Houston one year when houston was missing it's top 2 players. I have no doubt in my mind that the Cavs win if they get out of the east those years.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 01:25 PM
hahaha, JB, where do you get these Daniel Steele long posts from? You must have an archive somewhere to just copy and paste. nobody can create that monster that fast.

beasted86
05-31-2011, 01:28 PM
The Cavs generally dominated the Lakers those years. Not to mention the Lakers struggled to get by Houston one year when houston was missing it's top 2 players. I have no doubt in my mind that the Cavs win if they get out of the east those years.

Please take off the hater shades. You know you don't believe what you just typed.

Because as I keep saying, anyone who says the Cavs would have got past the Lakers either year is basically saying LeBron >>>>>>>> Kobe.

'08 thru '10 Lakers supporting cast >>>> '08 thru '10 Cavs supporting cast
'08 thru '10 Lakers coach >>>>>>>>>>> '08 thru '10 Cavs coach

As simple as that. No debate from anybody here who can dispute that.

jockrider
05-31-2011, 01:29 PM
Basically this is all it boils down to for all the haters who dislike LeBron and want to let that skew their judgement on how good the Cavs were...


Okay, so for everyone saying in 2010 LeBron could have won with that Cavs team... basically you are saying LeBron >>>>>>> Kobe. Because I don't think there's anyone on this forum who can't say Kobe had a far better supporting cast, and a better coach on the 2010 Lakers who DID actually win. If you think LeBron had enough to win, you are saying the Cavs could have beat the Lakers in the Finals that year.

So in essence, you are saying LeBron is that much of a difference from Kobe, and he is THAT much better to pick up the slack in the talent disparity between the two teams.

i agree lebron has been a much better player than kobe in all aspects of the game. to me its not even close.

ManRam
05-31-2011, 01:30 PM
I can understand a Jordan vote (even thought I do think he always won with more talent), but I can't get behind a Kobe vote, not at all. He lost on far, far, far better teams, and never got close whenever he didn't have a good team around him. He can't be the only guy on a team and succeed as much as LeBron did.

Let alone a Pippen vote.


And JB, what point are you trying to make? The media had high expectations for Cleveland, so therefore his cast was good? LeBron made those teams great regular season teams, not ancient big men, poor guards and a very bad offensive coach.

JordansBulls
05-31-2011, 01:33 PM
I can understand a Jordan vote (even thought I do think he always won with more talent), but I can't get behind a Kobe vote, not at all. He lost on far, far, far better teams, and never got close whenever he didn't have a good team around him. He can't be the only guy on a team and succeed as much as LeBron did.

Let alone a Pippen vote.


And JB, what point are you trying to make? The media had high expectations for Cleveland, so therefore his cast was good? LeBron made those teams great regular season teams, not ancient big men, poor guards and a very bad offensive coach.

Honestly I thought if Cleveland got by Orlando they would have won it all in 2009 and the same thing in 2010 if they got by Boston. the Cavs 2009 were built to beat the 2009 C's and Lakers, while the 2010 Cavs were built to beat the Magic and Lakers. In 2009 they lost the home game by 1 point in game 1. They were up by 15+ in every home game. You don't get up that many points in every home game in the conference finals with just one player.

Twins Fanatic
05-31-2011, 01:33 PM
Bottom line is the Cavs were 19-63 without LeBron James in the 2011 season...that's enough said.

beasted86
05-31-2011, 01:34 PM
i agree lebron has been a much better player than kobe in all aspects of the game. to me its not even close.

So if "its not even close." between LeBron and Kobe, what does that make the difference betweeen Jordan and LeBron, or even worse, Jordan and Kobe.

I always say even myself that Jordan is in a league of his own that LeBron or Kobe won't ever reach, but with the way you are making it sound, Kobe a top 15 player when it's all said and done isn't even near the same planet as Jordan. Something about that doesn't sound right.

Chronz
05-31-2011, 01:35 PM
hahaha, JB, where do you get these Daniel Steele long posts from? You must have an archive somewhere to just copy and paste. nobody can create that monster that fast.

Yup no matter how often theyve been refuted, he'll bring the same ol tired arguments out the woodwork and try again.

Baller1
05-31-2011, 01:36 PM
That's just it. Some here bring up all the stats, numbers, point differentials, HCA, etc, and attempt to use it.

Bring up the Cav's individual playoff numbers. His roster sucked. Badly.

Exactly. People can say what they want about their regular season record, but the fact of the matter is that they disappeared in the playoffs.

Chronz
05-31-2011, 01:36 PM
Bottom line is the Cavs were 19-63 without LeBron James in the 2011 season...that's enough said.

If you include the teams record without Bron when he was actually in Cleveland and their performance without him on the court and you see why that team was so flawed.

jockrider
05-31-2011, 01:38 PM
So if "its not even close." between LeBron and Kobe, what does that make the difference betweeen Jordan and LeBron, or even worse, Jordan and Kobe.

I always say even myself that Jordan is in a league of his own that LeBron or Kobe won't ever reach, but with the way you are making it sound, Kobe a top 15 player when it's all said and done isn't even near the same planet as Jordan. Something about that doesn't sound right.

i was talking about the past couple seasons lebron was better by a fair margin.

Baller1
05-31-2011, 01:39 PM
I mean... The Cavs were PATHETIC this year. I don't care if that argument may be a "weak" one, but it's the truth.

Lebron left, and that franchise/team went to ****. Simple as that.

justinnum1
05-31-2011, 01:40 PM
nobody could have won with that roster. In fact, i am convinced that nobody could have even led that team to near 60 wins.

+1

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 01:40 PM
I mean... The Cavs were PATHETIC this year. I don't care if that argument may be a "weak" one, but it's the truth.

Lebron left, and that franchise/team went to ****. Simple as that.

They won more games than my puppies :sad2:

beasted86
05-31-2011, 01:40 PM
i was talking about the past couple seasons lebron was better by a fair margin.

Enough to make up the margin between the Lakers & Cavs supporting cast, and Lakers & Cavs coach?

SteBO
05-31-2011, 01:41 PM
Exactly. People can say what they want about their regular season record, but the fact of the matter is that they disappeared in the playoffs.

Mo Williams' shooting percentage in the last two years took nearly a full 10% dip come postseason. Antawn Jamison was nowhere to be seen, Shaq was useless, Z was useless, Delonte West was useless. Everyone on that roster outside LeBron was garbage come it mattered the most. That's not even debatable. Noone cares about 60+ wins, it's about what you do in the postseason. That's how teams will be judged.

Twins Fanatic
05-31-2011, 01:41 PM
Strongly agree

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 01:42 PM
on a side note (and I think Brown is a wonderful defensive coach), I couldn't have been more pissed off watching Brown late in games

"Oh man, this isolation stuff just doesn't seem to be working. I better call a timeout and draw up that isolation for LeBron on the other side of the court. That might fool them"

God he was an idiot on the offensive end.

SteBO
05-31-2011, 01:46 PM
on a side note (and I think Brown is a wonderful defensive coach), I couldn't have been more pissed off watching Brown late in games

"Oh man, this isolation stuff just doesn't seem to be working. I better call a timeout and draw up that isolation for LeBron on the other side of the court. That might fool them"

God he was an idiot on the offensive end.

He made Bostons' defensive shemes easier. Just wall everything off, and let LBJ go one on one against Tony Allen. Their offense was so predictable, it's was laughable, yet sad at the same time. They never even made an attempt to push the pace more often.

ManRam
05-31-2011, 01:49 PM
Honestly I thought if Cleveland got by Orlando they would have won it all in 2009 and the same thing in 2010 if they got by Boston. the Cavs 2009 were built to beat the 2009 C's and Lakers, while the 2010 Cavs were built to beat the Magic and Lakers. In 2009 they lost the home game by 1 point in game 1. They were up by 15+ in every home game. You don't get up that many points in every home game in the conference finals with just one player.

You really think they could have beat LA?

How? That LA team could run laps around Cleveland in terms of talent, size and skill...and coaching...and everything else.

The team was great in the regular season, but that's not evidence enough of how good the cast was. Not at all. Just look at the talent...it's not there. Mo Williams and Z were the only all-stars he every played with. Mo got in because Jameer got injured (a terrible year for EC PGs), Z made it once when he was playing with LeBron, in LeBron's second year.

Besides those guys, he never played with an all-star. He never ever played with an All-NBA player (1st through 3rd team). He just didn't have the help all these guys above ever had. It's not even a debate.

None of these guys ever won with less than what he had, which is why I get bothered when people bash him for not winning with the teams he did. When has a great player ever won with so little? Never.

papipapsmanny
05-31-2011, 01:53 PM
these threads are so predictable. Something questions Lebron, then heat fans flock in into the thread and defend him to death

I know they would have had a better chance with MJ, not saying they would have won, but he would have given them a better chance.

I would venture to say MJs first ship team and last years cavs are comparable.

Hell 91 bulls had 4 guys average double figures, last years cavs had 5 guys do that (hell they had 4 guys average double figures in the playoffs

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 01:54 PM
You really think they could have beat LA?

How? That LA team could run laps around Cleveland in terms of talent, size and skill...and coaching...and everything else.

The team was great in the regular season, but that's not evidence enough of how good the cast was. Not at all. Just look at the talent...it's not there. Mo Williams and Z were the only all-stars he every played with. Mo got in because Jameer got injured (a terrible year for EC PGs), Z made it once when he was playing with LeBron, in LeBron's second year.

Besides those guys, he never played with an all-star. He never ever played with an All-NBA player (1st through 3rd team). He just didn't have the help all these guys above ever had. It's not even a debate.

None of these guys ever won with less than what he had, which is why I get bothered when people bash him for not winning with the teams he did. When has a great player ever won with so little? Never.


His response will be that the Cavs were able to beat the Lakers in the regular season.

Didn't the Bulls beat the Heat every time they played this season?

Baller1
05-31-2011, 01:54 PM
They won more games than my puppies :sad2:

:laugh2: sorry Hawk. I was in your shoes just 2 years ago! Not to mention my team being moved... :(


Mo Williams' shooting percentage in the last two years took nearly a full 10% dip come postseason. Antawn Jamison was nowhere to be seen, Shaq was useless, Z was useless, Delonte West was useless. Everyone on that roster outside LeBron was garbage come it mattered the most. That's not even debatable. Noone cares about 60+ wins, it's about what you do in the postseason. That's how teams will be judged.

Exactly, yet people still wanna argue that Lebron disappeared in the playoffs? Ridiculous.


on a side note (and I think Brown is a wonderful defensive coach), I couldn't have been more pissed off watching Brown late in games

"Oh man, this isolation stuff just doesn't seem to be working. I better call a timeout and draw up that isolation for LeBron on the other side of the court. That might fool them"

God he was an idiot on the offensive end.

He's the black Scott Brooks!

smith&wesson
05-31-2011, 01:55 PM
how you can back that up? Jordan never won with a cast that poor, and he lost a lot of years with casts way better.

+ 1

mttwlsn16
05-31-2011, 01:55 PM
Mo Williams' shooting percentage in the last two years took nearly a full 10% dip come postseason. Antawn Jamison was nowhere to be seen, Shaq was useless, Z was useless, Delonte West was useless. Everyone on that roster outside LeBron was garbage come it mattered the most. That's not even debatable. Noone cares about 60+ wins, it's about what you do in the postseason. That's how teams will be judged.

now now, to be fair he was very good at driving into the painted area

SteBO
05-31-2011, 01:56 PM
now now, to be fair he was very good at driving into the painted area

Not in 2010.

JordansBulls
05-31-2011, 01:57 PM
You really think they could have beat LA?

How? That LA team could run laps around Cleveland in terms of talent, size and skill...and coaching...and everything else.

The team was great in the regular season, but that's not evidence enough of how good the cast was. Not at all. Just look at the talent...it's not there. Mo Williams and Z were the only all-stars he every played with. Mo got in because Jameer got injured (a terrible year for EC PGs), Z made it once when he was playing with LeBron, in LeBron's second year.

Besides those guys, he never played with an all-star. He never ever played with an All-NBA player (1st through 3rd team). He just didn't have the help all these guys above ever had. It's not even a debate.

None of these guys ever won with less than what he had, which is why I get bothered when people bash him for not winning with the teams he did. When has a great player ever won with so little? Never.

Big Z was an allstar before ever playing with Lebron. As for why they would have beaten LA. Well in every series Kobe was the best player on the floor in 2009 and 2010 and then they had the best frontcourt. Cavs had a better defense than LA and in this instance, the Cavs would be throwing the best player on the floor. Notice the teams that beat Cleveland were teams that played good defense as well.

SteBO
05-31-2011, 01:59 PM
Big Z was an allstar before ever playing with Lebron. As for why they would have beaten LA. Well in every series Kobe was the best player on the floor in 2009 and 2010 and then they had the best frontcourt. Cavs had a better defense than LA and in this instance, the Cavs would be throwing the best player on the floor. Notice the teams that beat Cleveland were teams that played good defense as well.

JB, Big Z is old and as slow footed as they come. Dwight Howard detroyed him every chance he got. The east needed a center back then as a fill in, that doesn't mean he was that good.

Baller1
05-31-2011, 01:59 PM
Big Z was an allstar before ever playing with Lebron. As for why they would have beaten LA. Well in every series Kobe was the best player on the floor in 2009 and 2010 and then they had the best frontcourt. Cavs had a better defense than LA and in this instance, the Cavs would be throwing the best player on the floor. Notice the teams that beat Cleveland were teams that played good defense as well.

Big Z is like 85 years old now, nothing like the player he was earlier in his career.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 02:00 PM
Big Z was an allstar before ever playing with Lebron. As for why they would have beaten LA. Well in every series Kobe was the best player on the floor in 2009 and 2010 and then they had the best frontcourt. Cavs had a better defense than LA and in this instance, the Cavs would be throwing the best player on the floor. Notice the teams that beat Cleveland were teams that played good defense as well.

I never get why you continuously throw Big Z and Shaq into your arguments JB. Its not what they once were. Its what they were the year LeBron needed their help. And that would be two ancient big men whose most exciting part of their day was a warm bath to soothe their joints.

SteBO
05-31-2011, 02:00 PM
Big Z is like 85 years old now, nothing like the player he was earlier in his career.

He's not even on our active roster........:rolleyes: I mean, really? Big Z was a key contributor? Realllyyyyy??!!!

Baller1
05-31-2011, 02:02 PM
He's not even on our active roster........:rolleyes: I mean, really? Big Z was a key contributor? Realllyyyyy??!!!

But he was an all-star 25 years ago!

Storch
05-31-2011, 02:03 PM
I'd say a Prime Shaq could have a chance? Surround him with 3 point shooters and the defensive scheme of cleveland back then, with all the isolation plays down low, mix it with Shaq's passing skills. There's a shot there, not a great one but a shot?

Baller1
05-31-2011, 02:03 PM
JB, you're a cool dude and everything, but at some point you gotta swallow your pride and admit you're wrong.

beasted86
05-31-2011, 02:04 PM
Big Z was an allstar before ever playing with Lebron. As for why they would have beaten LA. Well in every series Kobe was the best player on the floor in 2009 and 2010 and then they had the best frontcourt. Cavs had a better defense than LA and in this instance, the Cavs would be throwing the best player on the floor. Notice the teams that beat Cleveland were teams that played good defense as well.

In 2009 the year you are supposedly so sure of that the Cavs should have won it all... the Lakers had the best ranked defense in the playoffs... even better than the Magic who beat that '09 Cavs team.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2009.html

Your argument seems to have cheese holes in it.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 02:05 PM
I'd say a Prime Shaq could have a chance? Surround him with 3 point shooters and the defensive scheme of cleveland back then, with all the isolation plays down low, mix it with Shaq's passing skills. There's a shot there, not a great one but a shot?

he should at least be on the poll, I agree. But I don't think even he had a chance. Shaq still can't make Mo, Twan, Booby, and the rest of the crew make a jumper in a tight situation. And they would have to because teams would just send Shaq to the line late in games

Storch
05-31-2011, 02:06 PM
he should at least be on the poll, I agree. But I don't think even he had a chance. Shaq still can't make Mo, Twan, Booby, and the rest of the crew make a jumper in a tight situation. And they would have to because teams would just send Shaq to the line late in games

:nod:

In conclusion, the cavs had a terrible team around Lebron.

Baller1
05-31-2011, 02:07 PM
I'd say a Prime Shaq could have a chance? Surround him with 3 point shooters and the defensive scheme of cleveland back then, with all the isolation plays down low, mix it with Shaq's passing skills. There's a shot there, not a great one but a shot?

For the sake of the argument, he should be on the poll, but he wouldn't have won with that team either.

For what it's worth, I don't think anyone in the history of the league could have won in the circumstances Lebron was under.

SteBO
05-31-2011, 02:08 PM
But he was an all-star 25 years ago!

:laugh:

Still, JB, Shaq and Z are complete fossils now, and they were last year too. They were useless. Nonfactors. Shaq and Z get their points how? LeBron James. I remember Shaq having a good game last year, against the Denver Nuggets at home, where 'Melo hit a game-winning shot @CLE. You wanna know LeBron's statline that night?

43 points, 15 rebounds, and 13 assists in a loss.

^This right here summarizes what LeBron had to do for that team, to even keep them in games against elite teams. Remember, Denver was a contender that year. I know it's just one game, but it's the story of LeBrons' tenure in Cleveland. Even in a game where guys think he quit, he had a triple-double, and the Cavs were in that game 'till the end still.

Kyben36
05-31-2011, 02:12 PM
Jordon or Kobe, 2 best closers the game has seen.

JordansBulls
05-31-2011, 02:22 PM
he should at least be on the poll, I agree. But I don't think even he had a chance. Shaq still can't make Mo, Twan, Booby, and the rest of the crew make a jumper in a tight situation. And they would have to because teams would just send Shaq to the line late in games

Go back and watch game 1 again, you will see Doug Collins mention how Lebron has the ball 18-20 seconds per possession. Not sure if you have played ball before but it is tough to get anything going when someone has the ball a lot.

Baller1
05-31-2011, 02:26 PM
Go back and watch game 1 again, you will see Doug Collins mention how Lebron has the ball 18-20 seconds per possession. Not sure if you have played ball before but it is tough to get anything going when someone has the ball a lot.

Unless that player is the greatest basketball player on the planet.

theheatles
05-31-2011, 02:27 PM
Go back and watch game 1 again, you will see Doug Collins mention how Lebron has the ball 18-20 seconds per possession. Not sure if you have played ball before but it is tough to get anything going when someone has the ball a lot.

That was by design...they wanted games to be shortened so they wouldn't have to spend so much energy, knowing that they were going to play out of their minds vs boston and chicago

Mane
05-31-2011, 02:38 PM
Some responses in here are jokes.

No one would win with that team.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 02:48 PM
Go back and watch game 1 again, you will see Doug Collins mention how Lebron has the ball 18-20 seconds per possession. Not sure if you have played ball before but it is tough to get anything going when someone has the ball a lot.

sure, but using isolated incidents doesn't win the argument JB.

And yes, I have played and been around plenty of basketball. But never with a 24 second shot clock. Hell Princeton offense used a minute per possession a number of years ago haha.

Baller1
05-31-2011, 02:50 PM
sure, but using isolated incidents doesn't win the argument JB.

And yes, I have played and been around plenty of basketball. But never with a 24 second shot clock. Hell Princeton offense used a minute per possession a number of years ago haha.

The league I play in uses a 24 second shot clock... It's soooo much harder than one might expect. It creeps up insanely quick.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 03:01 PM
The league I play in uses a 24 second shot clock... It's soooo much harder than one might expect. It creeps up insanely quick.

maybe we should have used a 24 second shot clock in that 10-6 game I starred in that I told you about...

Baller1
05-31-2011, 03:04 PM
maybe we should have used a 24 second shot clock in that 10-6 game I starred in that I told you about...

:laugh: I still can't believe that. The people watching had to have been thrilled!

godolphins
05-31-2011, 04:15 PM
This is just straight trolling. Are you serious? You have 3 superstars in your team none of which ever won anything without another star player next to them. That's straight Kobe hate.
Child please....How far did Kobe take his team after losing Shaq and before getting Gasol. He had to demand a trade because he knew he couldn't do it with a bunch of roles players, after he got Gasol he won two championships. I'm not knocking Kobe but its the truth.

TheHighLife
05-31-2011, 04:41 PM
All of the above

koreancabbage
05-31-2011, 05:05 PM
it was ALL Lebron. he accounts for at least 40 wins by himself.

blastmasta26
05-31-2011, 07:12 PM
The Cavs definitely reached their peak during the LeBron era. I don't believe anyone, not even Jordan, could have taken that team to a championship. A comparatively atrocious supporting cast and the best player in the league will allow for regular season dominance, but exposure in the playoffs is inevitable.

ShiroRX
05-31-2011, 07:15 PM
Lebron left cause it's a terrible organization. Look who they put around him.

Dan Gilbert should be pelted with crap for forcing him out of your city, Clevelanders.