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View Full Version : Garnett in Minnesota, CP3 in New Orleans or Lebron in Cleveland - Least Support?



JordansBulls
05-30-2011, 02:48 PM
All 3 of these players are said many times to have not had much support for the franchises they orginally played for. Who do you think had the least support of the 3?

Garnett in Minnesota, CP3 in New Orleans or Lebron in Cleveland, who had the lessor supporting cast?

Hawkeye15
05-30-2011, 02:50 PM
its obviously between LeBron and CP3. Minny did have a single year where they had Spree and Cassell, and that year alone is enough to take KG out of this argument.

I will probably take some time and look before I give my final opinion. But if I had to guess without researching, its CP3. Hence why such a great player has only sniffed the second round once, and only made the playoffs 3 times.

John Walls Era
05-30-2011, 02:54 PM
I had to pick Lebron. Its just amazing to me how bad the Cavs were this year without Lebron.

FadeAwayLikeMJ
05-30-2011, 02:54 PM
CP3... i think its the obvious answer

beasted86
05-30-2011, 02:58 PM
KG in Minny.

Although there were years he had some good "names" around him, IE: Marbury, Gugliotta, T.B., Wally, Spreewell, Cassell, etc... it's just a shame when Garnett is the leader in PPG, AST, REB, STL, BLK, consistently for so many years.

Cano4prez
05-30-2011, 03:03 PM
I'd guess CP3 first, maybe Bron

Chronz
05-30-2011, 03:05 PM
When?

210Don
05-30-2011, 03:05 PM
cp3 has nobody there always hurt or play horrible

rhino17
05-30-2011, 03:07 PM
Definitely not KG, he had quite a few talented teammates over his tenure

I would say its Lebron, he never had anyone as good as David West on his team

Sadds The Gr8
05-30-2011, 03:11 PM
When?

throughout their careers in those cities?

jockrider
05-30-2011, 03:11 PM
lebron.

he had this dude playing actual mins on his team
http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/4/40/Act_ira_newble.jpg

blacknell
05-30-2011, 03:15 PM
once marbury left Minny Garnett didn't have any kind of help

alexander_37
05-30-2011, 03:20 PM
KG easy :pity: he led his team in almost every stat category every year. Paul had some solid role players, Lebron had Mo Williams Gooden Z Shaq. CP3 was never asked to rebound. Lebron played point forward so he is obviously going to rack up alot of stats but KG was nearly asked to play 1-5 KG was one of the most underrated players of his time.

miller74
05-30-2011, 03:28 PM
lol i remember when Garnett had Cassel and Sprewall and some called them "the big 3"

Il Mago50
05-30-2011, 03:30 PM
Outside of a year and a half when KG had Cassell and Sprewell on their last legs, what other support did he have?

CP3 has had Emeka Okafor, David West, Tyson Chandler, Peja Stojakovic, a good bench, Byron Scott as a coach and a great set of role players.

Lebron had Big Z as a 14 and 10 guy for 4-5 years, had shooters, had Varajeo, Mo Williams, Delonte West, Antwan Jamison, JJ Hickson, Boobie, and a great bench and system that was catered to play to his strengths as a player.

KG had Wally Szcerbiak as the second best player on the team for most of his time in Minnesota...he had Terrell Brandon on his last legs and injured...he had Rasho Nesterovic for a couple years as the starting 5...he really had next to no talent to play with...people can put Lebron on the pedistile all they want and justify him giving in after 7 years in Cleveland but the fact remains that he won a lot of games and got far into the playoffs in 6 of those 7 years in Cleveland. KG got out of the first round once, had to take year after year of being on losing teams and had even less support then Lebron...oh and played 11-12 years in that environment before he was traded, because he never demanded out and had the heart of the champion to keep battling which is why I was extatic when he got a ring: he deserved one. Lebron has gone through no hardship in his career and therefore has no reason to wine about not having a ring.

rhino17
05-30-2011, 03:34 PM
At different times, KG had

Stephon Marbury and Tom Gugliotta

Wally Szczerbiak, Terrell Brandon, and Chauncy Billups

Sam Cassell, Latrell Spreewell, and Wally Szczerbiak


I think that is a lot more talent than either of the other 2 have played with

Dash
05-30-2011, 03:34 PM
LeBron, who did he have?

No one, the best player he had was Antawn Jamison, and he's not an ok player.

12evolution 9
05-30-2011, 03:36 PM
KG in Minny.

Although there were years he had some good "names" around him, IE: Marbury, Gugliotta, T.B., Wally, Spreewell, Cassell, etc... it's just a shame when Garnett is the leader in PPG, AST, REB, STL, BLK, consistently for so many years.

... this

Tony_Starks
05-30-2011, 03:37 PM
KG pretty much always had a competitive team until the last couple years in Minny. Lebron always had a competitive team in Cleveland, tailor made to fit his playing style and allow him to dominate the ball.

CP3 has probably consistently had the least "support" if you wanna call it that. Albeit he does play with an allstar PF which is a luxury most teams don't have.....

daleja424
05-30-2011, 03:45 PM
In all of Lebron's years in Cleveland two guys made an allstar team:
Big Z in 2005
Mo Williams in 2009 (alternate selection)

Chris Paul had two years with all-star teammates:
David West in 2008
David West in 2009

KG had three years with all-star teammates:
Cassell in 2004
Szczerbiak in 2002
Tom Gugliotta in 1993

NONE of these guys ever had much star help... As far as team help, I think that Lebron had the weakest overall help during his Cleveland years.

godolphins
05-30-2011, 03:50 PM
Can you imagine if Lebron had the same supporting cast Chris Paul had in 07

David West 20.6 PPG, 8.9 RPG
Tyson Chandler 11.8 PPG, 11.8 RPG
Peja Stojakovic 16.4 PPG, 44% three point shooting

B. Wells, J. Pargo, M. Peterson averaged eights points a game individually and Bobby Jackson averaged seven points a game.

C: Chandler
PF: West
SF: Lebron
SG: Peja
PG: Pargo

Lebron would have a ring by now if he had Tyson Chandler, Peja and David West for four years

Overall Lebron had the worst supporting cast, Mo Williams was the best player he played with

Mo Williams(2 years),Big Z, Drew Gooden, J. Mcniss, I. Newble, R. Traylor, Varejo, Pavovlic, Damon Jones, Larry Hughes(3 years), D. Marshall, Erick Snow, Daniel Gibson, Delonte West, Wally Szczerbiak, Jamario Moon, Antwan Jamison(half a season) Shaq(one year)


At least Chris Paul had David West throughout his career, Emaka Okafor(2 years), Peja(4 years), James Posey, Rasuel Butler, Tyson Chandler(4 years) Bobby Jackson, Speedy Claxton, R. Mason, M. Jackson, P. Brown, J.R. Smith, b. Wells, J. Pargo


Lebron top for looks like this: Mo Williams for two years, Antwan Jamison for half a season, Big Z(whole career) and Larry Hughes for three years.

Chris Paul top four: David West(whole career)both Tyson Chandler and Peja Sto. for four years and Okafor for two years.

koLohe2133
05-30-2011, 03:51 PM
Oh my God!

Cp3 has had David west and..........? David west? Ariza? Okafor???

Second round once? And missed the playoffs how many times??

I love how ppl say it's a "team game" then claim lebron took em to the finals...


When's the last time ONE PLAYER CARRIED A TEAM TO THE championship??

Lebron had talent, he didn't guard all five positions....kg had spree and et....and almost took down shaq and Kobe...

Cp3 hasn't played with ANYONE GOOD

TomTerrific
05-30-2011, 03:51 PM
Outside of a year and a half when KG had Cassell and Sprewell on their last legs, what other support did he have?

CP3 has had Emeka Okafor, David West, Tyson Chandler, Peja Stojakovic, a good bench, Byron Scott as a coach and a great set of role players.

Lebron had Big Z as a 14 and 10 guy for 4-5 years, had shooters, had Varajeo, Mo Williams, Delonte West, Antwan Jamison, JJ Hickson, Boobie, and a great bench and system that was catered to play to his strengths as a player.

KG had Wally Szcerbiak as the second best player on the team for most of his time in Minnesota...he had Terrell Brandon on his last legs and injured...he had Rasho Nesterovic for a couple years as the starting 5...he really had next to no talent to play with...people can put Lebron on the pedistile all they want and justify him giving in after 7 years in Cleveland but the fact remains that he won a lot of games and got far into the playoffs in 6 of those 7 years in Cleveland. KG got out of the first round once, had to take year after year of being on losing teams and had even less support then Lebron...oh and played 11-12 years in that environment before he was traded, because he never demanded out and had the heart of the champion to keep battling which is why I was extatic when he got a ring: he deserved one. Lebron has gone through no hardship in his career and therefore has no reason to wine about not having a ring.

:clap:

PHX2daDEATH
05-30-2011, 03:59 PM
Its funny how KG's one title and one conference final appearance erases his playoff failures, He had two good teammates in Sprewell and Cassell

godolphins
05-30-2011, 04:00 PM
Oh my God!

Cp3 has had David west and..........? David west? Ariza? Okafor???

Second round once? And missed the playoffs how many times??

I love how ppl say it's a "team game" then claim lebron took em to the finals...


When's the last time ONE PLAYER CARRIED A TEAM TO THE championship??

Lebron had talent, he didn't guard all five positions....kg had spree and et....and almost took down shaq and Kobe...

Cp3 hasn't played with ANYONE GOOD

Tyson Chandler and Peja for fours years(not old Peja), who did Lebron have? Mo Williams...Big Z....Hughes

TheHighLife
05-30-2011, 04:08 PM
Garnett. FOR SURE

heyman321
05-30-2011, 04:09 PM
Easily between KG and Lebron, gonna have to go with Lebron.

m26555
05-30-2011, 04:23 PM
Garnett in Minnesota. This isn't even debatable.

m26555
05-30-2011, 04:26 PM
Its funny how KG's one title and one conference final appearance erases his playoff failures, He had two good teammates in Sprewell and Cassell
:laugh2:

Yeah; for ONE year (the 03-04 season), and the one year he DID have them, he had to play point guard in the WCF because both Cassell and Troy Hudson were hurt. Don't even bring up the 04-05 season, because Sam and Spree were garbage then.


In all of Lebron's years in Cleveland two guys made an allstar team:
Big Z in 2005
Mo Williams in 2009 (alternate selection)

Chris Paul had two years with all-star teammates:
David West in 2008
David West in 2009

KG had three years with all-star teammates:
Cassell in 2004
Szczerbiak in 2002
Tom Gugliotta in 1993

NONE of these guys ever had much star help... As far as team help, I think that Lebron had the weakest overall help during his Cleveland years.
Garnett wasn't even in the league in '93...

TylerSL
05-30-2011, 04:28 PM
Oh my God!

Cp3 has had David west and..........? David west? Ariza? Okafor???

Second round once? And missed the playoffs how many times??

I love how ppl say it's a "team game" then claim lebron took em to the finals...


When's the last time ONE PLAYER CARRIED A TEAM TO THE championship??

Lebron had talent, he didn't guard all five positions....kg had spree and et....and almost took down shaq and Kobe...

Cp3 hasn't played with ANYONE GOOD


LOL. So I guess a young Peja (15 points, 40% from 3), Tyson Chandler (10 points, 11 rebounds/game), David West (19.2 points, 8 rebounds/game), Emaka Okafor (10.4 points, 9.3 rebounds/game), and Trevor Ariza (11 points/game) are all garbage......

Note-That was their stats in New Orleans (David West's career since Paul's rookie season). I know Ariza only played one year in NO, but he has proved he is not garbage. He averages 9 points on 25.0 minutes per game. His career per 36 min is 13 points, 6 rebounds. He is a SOLID role player.

allSUAVE
05-30-2011, 04:35 PM
CP3 hands downnnnn then KG! In the tougher conference

"Stop underestimating Gibson, JJ hickson, Mo Williams, Jamison, Dwest because those are pretty good if not DESENT players.

Ryan328
05-30-2011, 04:39 PM
Cp3

NYKalltheway
05-30-2011, 04:47 PM
Garnett... tougher times

Nice question btw :)

Mr. Baller
05-30-2011, 04:49 PM
CP3, Lebron then KG.

Cal827
05-30-2011, 05:06 PM
Lebron James. I can't get over how bad the Cavs were this year. I knew that they would see a big drop off in their record, but I still thought they would contend for a playoff spot at least (since they are in the Eastern Conference, where I think 37 wins got the Pacers in). I thought that some of his numbers would be covered by the other guys (not all of course since he's one of the best in the league). But damn, they lost like 42 more games over last year.

Rivera
05-30-2011, 05:09 PM
garnett in minnesota

besides those 2 years he had with spree and cassel and those 2 1/2 years garnett virtually played with no one his whole tenure and not to mention garnett had a rougher time to even get to the finals

i mean KG had to go through Shaq/Kobe lakers and the Tim Ducan Led Spurs and Malone/Stockton on there last legs

not to mention how stacked portland was with sheed/wells/sabonnis/stoudemire/pippen

its easier just to say KG had more help because those 3 players alone are probably better than any1 bron or cp3 played with but considering the era as well.....the fact that KG damn near almost beat kobe and shaqs lakers playing PG and bringing the ball up was amazing enough...ill never forget that series that series made KG a legend even though they lost he played every position on the court

the actual players that were on the court that game for the wolves?

pg darrick martin
sg latrell sprewell
sf trenton hassel starting/wally sczerbiak
pf KG
C Michael Olowokandi

Il Mago50
05-30-2011, 05:17 PM
Lebron James. I can't get over how bad the Cavs were this year. I knew that they would see a big drop off in their record, but I still thought they would contend for a playoff spot at least (since they are in the Eastern Conference, where I think 37 wins got the Pacers in). I thought that some of his numbers would be covered by the other guys (not all of course since he's one of the best in the league). But damn, they lost like 42 more games over last year.

You realize that they also had a completely different system in place and that Mike Brown's defensive schemes weren't there anymore either.

Varajeo missed most of the year. Williams was out a bunch of games before getting traded. The team was basically handed over to youngsters like Eyenga, Hollins, that 6'9 SF, etc. They weren't going to win anything this year but that doesn't mean that they weren't a great supporting cast when Lebron was there.

Lebron dominated the ball and what did he need to be successful? A low post threat, shooters and defenders. He had low post threats with Drew Gooden (consistently 14-10 while he was there), Big Z, etc. He had shooters in Williams, Gibson, Sczerbiak, Marshall, etc. And he had a great defensive mind as a coach and good team defense there with him. He had the help that he needed to be successful as a player.

CP3 shouldn't even be in the discussion, he's had more then enough help around him.

- KG didn't play with Gugliotta as an all-star.
- He had one good year of Cassell and Sprewell.
- His coaches were interchanged more often then the Raptors'
- Billups was no where near the player he turned out to develop into for the Pistons so that shouldn't be mentioned
- His best years with the Wolves, he carried the team and had Wally as the second best player, Rasho as the center, Troy Hudson as the third option, and a **** bench. He never had great pieces put around him and that's why they never won in the playoffs. He never had a team built around him like Duncan did that would compete for titles and that maximized his potential and skill as a player. Lebron had that, KG did not from his teammates.

Lakers + Giants
05-30-2011, 05:29 PM
Has to be CP3, then lebron.

CP3 has David West and that's basically it.

Lebron had Antawn, Mo, and Big Z.

KG had Cassell, Sprewell, Wally Z, and Troy Hudson.

Il Mago50
05-30-2011, 05:33 PM
Has to be CP3, then lebron.

CP3 has David West and that's basically it.

Lebron had Antawn, Mo, and Big Z.

KG had Cassell, Sprewell, Wally Z, and Troy Hudson.

Years of CP3 with 80% Peja Stojakovic, David West, Tyson Chandler, great bench and coach: 3

Years CP3 had a mix of Emeka okafor, David West, Tyson Chandler, Peja, Trevor Ariza, etc: Whole career

Years Lebron had mix of Big Z, Gooden, Wally, Mo, Antwan, 15-5 Larry Hughes, Boobie: Whole career cept rookie season

Years KG had a supporting cast (Cassell and Sprewell): 1

Enough said

Cal827
05-30-2011, 05:36 PM
You realize that they also had a completely different system in place and that Mike Brown's defensive schemes weren't there anymore either.

Varajeo missed most of the year. Williams was out a bunch of games before getting traded. The team was basically handed over to youngsters like Eyenga, Hollins, that 6'9 SF, etc. They weren't going to win anything this year but that doesn't mean that they weren't a great supporting cast when Lebron was there.

Lebron dominated the ball and what did he need to be successful? A low post threat, shooters and defenders. He had low post threats with Drew Gooden (consistently 14-10 while he was there), Big Z, etc. He had shooters in Williams, Gibson, Sczerbiak, Marshall, etc. And he had a great defensive mind as a coach and good team defense there with him. He had the help that he needed to be successful as a player.

CP3 shouldn't even be in the discussion, he's had more then enough help around him.

- KG didn't play with Gugliotta as an all-star.
- He had one good year of Cassell and Sprewell.
- His coaches were interchanged more often then the Raptors'
- Billups was no where near the player he turned out to develop into for the Pistons so that shouldn't be mentioned
- His best years with the Wolves, he carried the team and had Wally as the second best player, Rasho as the center, Troy Hudson as the third option, and a **** bench. He never had great pieces put around him and that's why they never won in the playoffs. He never had a team built around him like Duncan did that would compete for titles and that maximized his potential and skill as a player. Lebron had that, KG did not from his teammates.

:laugh:

I agree with you on Chris Paul though. He has some decent players around him. Wasn't David West an all star a few years ago? They also have Okafor, Ariza, and Landry.

magichatnumber9
05-30-2011, 05:38 PM
Cassell and Sprewell are not championship caliber talent. Sorry there just not.

Lakers + Giants
05-30-2011, 05:40 PM
Years of CP3 with 80% Peja Stojakovic, David West, Tyson Chandler, great bench and coach: 3

Years CP3 had a mix of Emeka okafor, David West, Tyson Chandler, Peja, Trevor Ariza, etc: Whole career

Years Lebron had mix of Big Z, Gooden, Wally, Mo, Antwan, 15-5 Larry Hughes, Boobie: Whole career cept rookie season

Years KG had a supporting cast (Cassell and Sprewell): 1

Enough said

LMAO. Just because you said "Enough Said" doesn't make you're statement true. . . that team alone with Cassell, Sprewell, Wally Z, Troy Hudson is deeper than any team Lebron had or CP3 had. . so no you FAIL. Sorry. . .

Rivera
05-30-2011, 05:40 PM
Cassell and Sprewell are not championship caliber talent. Sorry there just not.

well cassel is .....he won 2 rings with the rockets

but i agree with you about spree..not as a 1 or 2 option

Rivera
05-30-2011, 05:42 PM
LMAO. Just because you said "Enough Said" doesn't make you're statement true. . . that team alone with Cassell, Sprewell, Wally Z, Troy Hudson is deeper than any team Lebron had or CP3 had. . so no you FAIL. Sorry. . .

the fact that you think troy hudson was a really good player is laughable

Lake_Show2416
05-30-2011, 05:42 PM
ppl quickly forget, it has to be KG

Lakers + Giants
05-30-2011, 05:45 PM
the fact that you think troy hudson was a really good player is laughable

I remember him and Wally Z owning the lakers in the WCF. . .so . . .:shrug:

Rivera
05-30-2011, 05:47 PM
I remember him and Wally Z owning the lakers in the WCF. . .so . . .:shrug:

yea troy hudson was a 6th man in his best years which was about one and a half years....the reason why he tourched the lakers???

because the lakers put 2 to 3 players on KG at time during that series which left wally and troy open....but you were probably 8 (and im being nice :laugh2: ) and dont remember that series

its easy to torch a team when you shoot WIDE OPEN shots

Lakers + Giants
05-30-2011, 05:49 PM
yea troy hudson was a 6th man in his best years which was about one and a half years....the reason why he tourched the lakers???

because the lakers put 2 to 3 players on KG at time during that series which left wally and troy open....but you were probably 8 (and im being nice :laugh2: ) and dont remember that series

its easy to torch a team when you shoot WIDE OPEN shots

I was 12. . .:mad:. :p

mdm692
05-30-2011, 05:52 PM
yea troy hudson was a 6th man in his best years which was about one and a half years....the reason why he tourched the lakers???

because the lakers put 2 to 3 players on KG at time during that series which left wally and troy open....but you were probably 8 (and im being nice :laugh2: ) and dont remember that series

its easy to torch a team when you shoot WIDE OPEN shots
Like chris bosh did

cammo17
05-30-2011, 05:58 PM
Kg.

godolphins
05-30-2011, 06:03 PM
Has to be CP3, then lebron.

CP3 has David West and that's basically it.

Lebron had Antawn, Mo, and Big Z.

KG had Cassell, Sprewell, Wally Z, and Troy Hudson.

Lebron had Jamison for half a year and Mo for two years. You're also forgetting that Chris Paul had Peja and Tyson Chandler for four years which means for four years he had Tyson Chandler, David West and Peja.

Lakers + Giants
05-30-2011, 06:07 PM
Lebron had Jamison for half a year and Mo for two years. You're also forgetting that Chris Paul had Peja and Tyson Chandler for four years which means for four years he had Tyson Chandler, David West and Peja.

Tyson Chandler was never as good with CP3 as he is now. His offense was the same but his Defense wasn't even nearly as good as it is now. Peja also wasn't that good with the hornets and he suffered a shitload of injuries. And to the people saying Ariza :laugh: he has never been as good as he was with the lakers in 09.

championships
05-30-2011, 06:15 PM
LeBron= finals.. KG=WCF.. CP3=2nd round.

This tells me the answer right there.

jockrider
05-30-2011, 06:18 PM
Tyson Chandler was never as good with CP3 as he is now. His offense was the same but his Defense wasn't even nearly as good as it is now. Peja also wasn't that good with the hornets and he suffered a shitload of injuries. And to the people saying Ariza :laugh: he has never been as good as he was with the lakers in 09.

orly?

Il Mago50
05-30-2011, 06:18 PM
:laugh:

I agree with you on Chris Paul though. He has some decent players around him. Wasn't David West an all star a few years ago? They also have Okafor, Ariza, and Landry.

I knew you'd like the Raps reference, still get goosebumps when I think of the Kevin O'Neill era.

West is a two time all-star if I'm not mistaken and he's had more then enough talent playing alongside him during his career, there's no case for him there.

Also, frankly, Chris Paul is not Lebron or KG in terms of true superstar...there, I said it.

wesbeasflynn
05-30-2011, 06:19 PM
LMAO. Just because you said "Enough Said" doesn't make you're statement true. . . that team alone with Cassell, Sprewell, Wally Z, Troy Hudson is deeper than any team Lebron had or CP3 had. . so no you FAIL. Sorry. . .

so what that team would have won a championship had cassel not turned his ankle that proves every other year he had NO help because the wolves never got close again.And he was there for 12 long years.what happened to wally after he left minny?2 and done

Il Mago50
05-30-2011, 06:22 PM
LMAO. Just because you said "Enough Said" doesn't make you're statement true. . . that team alone with Cassell, Sprewell, Wally Z, Troy Hudson is deeper than any team Lebron had or CP3 had. . so no you FAIL. Sorry. . .

Sprewell wasn't the Sprewell of the Knicks...this guy was out of the league half a year later. Cassell was still a good player but their expiration dates were reached and Cassell had one more good year with the Clippers then fell off the face of the earth.

Wally Z was garbage by that point as any Cavs fan that saw him can agree with and Troy Hudson is not a good basketball player...as simple as I can say.

How in the world you can think that one year of this talent compares with Lebron having two-three all-stars on his team, countless shooters, grindy defenders and a stable coach and system is beyond me.

Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

DoJoTheSlasher
05-30-2011, 06:24 PM
Chris Paul has had David West for 5 or 6 years.

godolphins
05-30-2011, 06:26 PM
Tyson Chandler was never as good with CP3 as he is now. His offense was the same but his Defense wasn't even nearly as good as it is now. Peja also wasn't that good with the hornets and he suffered a shitload of injuries. And to the people saying Ariza :laugh: he has never been as good as he was with the lakers in 09.


Peja
06-07: 13 games: 17.8 PPG
07-08: 77 games: 16.4 PPG
08-09: 61 games: 13.3 PPG
09-10: 62 games: 12.6 PPG

Chandler
06-07: 73 games: 9.5 PPG, 12.4 RPG
07-08: 79 games: 11.8 PPG, 11.8 RPG
08-09: 45 games: 8.8 PPG, 8.7 RPG

David West
07-08: 76 games: 20.6 PPG, 8.9 RPG

B. Wells: 8.8
J. Pargo: 8.1
M. Peterson: 8.0

Just look at the team he had in 2007-2008

avrpatsfan
05-30-2011, 06:35 PM
Definitely not KG, he had quite a few talented teammates over his tenure

I would say its Lebron, he never had anyone as good as David West on his team
Just because they're talented, doesn't mean they did ****. I'd list them in this order though
1. Lebron
2. KG
3. Paul

CP3 has David West, Ariza, Collison for a while, and more.

SportsFanatic10
05-30-2011, 06:38 PM
KG has my vote

Il Mago50
05-30-2011, 06:40 PM
Peja
06-07: 13 games: 17.8 PPG
07-08: 77 games: 16.4 PPG
08-09: 61 games: 13.3 PPG
09-10: 62 games: 12.6 PPG

Chandler
06-07: 73 games: 9.5 PPG, 12.4 RPG
07-08: 79 games: 11.8 PPG, 11.8 RPG
08-09: 45 games: 8.8 PPG, 8.7 RPG

David West
07-08: 76 games: 20.6 PPG, 8.9 RPG

B. Wells: 8.8
J. Pargo: 8.1
M. Peterson: 8.0

Just look at the team he had in 2007-2008

Man, don't even bother, lakers24giants5 is an absolute clown, he's given no indication that he understands basketball or even how time works to be frank.

Mell413
05-30-2011, 06:40 PM
I'd say Lebron. The best player he played with was Mo Williams. The 2nd best player on the team that made the finals was Larry ****ing Hughes. KG at least had Spree and Cassell for a brief period.

Lakers + Giants
05-30-2011, 06:43 PM
Peja
06-07: 13 games: 17.8 PPG
07-08: 77 games: 16.4 PPG
08-09: 61 games: 13.3 PPG
09-10: 62 games: 12.6 PPG

Chandler
06-07: 73 games: 9.5 PPG, 12.4 RPG
07-08: 79 games: 11.8 PPG, 11.8 RPG
08-09: 45 games: 8.8 PPG, 8.7 RPG

David West
07-08: 76 games: 20.6 PPG, 8.9 RPG

B. Wells: 8.8
J. Pargo: 8.1
M. Peterson: 8.0

Just look at the team he had in 2007-2008

my point exactly. . .peja had 1 good season with CP3 in 07-08. in 06-07 he only played 13 games. Like i said, chandler was good offensively but never had the same defensive impact he's had with the mavs. I also did say that David West was the only true good player he had so why put him on your list? You basically proved my point. :clap:

championships
05-30-2011, 06:45 PM
]Lebron James. I can't get over how bad the Cavs were this year.[/B]


I had to pick Lebron. Its just amazing to me how bad the Cavs were this year without Lebron.

I always laugh when people try to make this claim or compare last years Cavs to this years.

2010-11 Roster
NUM PLAYER POS HT WT DOB FROM YRS
85 Baron Davis G 6-3 215 04/13/1979 UCLA 11
9 Semih Erden C 6-11 240 07/28/1986 Turkey R
8 Christian Eyenga F 6-5 210 06/22/1989 Kinshasa, DRC R
33 Alonzo Gee F 6-6 220 05/29/1987 Alabama 1
1 Daniel Gibson G 6-2 200 02/27/1986 Texas 4
12 Joey Graham F 6-7 230 06/11/1982 Oklahoma State 5
44 Luke Harangody F 6-7 251 01/02/1988 Notre Dame R
6 Manny Harris G 6-5 185 09/21/1989 Michigan R
21 J.J. Hickson C-F 6-9 242 09/04/1988 North Carolina State 2
5 Ryan Hollins C 7-0 240 10/10/1984 UCLA 4
4 Antawn Jamison F 6-9 235 06/12/1976 North Carolina 12
18 Anthony Parker G-F 6-6 210 06/19/1975 Bradley 7
24 Samardo Samuels F 6-9 260 01/09/1989 Louisville R
3 Ramon Sessions G 6-3 190 04/11/1986 Nevada-Reno 3
17 Anderson Varejao C 6-11 260 09/28/1982 Santa Teresa, Brazil 6

HEAD COACH
Byron Scott (College - Arizona State)

2009-2010 Roster
No. Player Pos Ht Wt Birth Date Exp College
1 Daniel Gibson G 6-2 190 February 27, 1986 3 University of Texas at Austin
14 Danny Green F 6-6 210 June 22, 1987 R University of North Carolina
21 J.J. Hickson F 6-9 242 September 4, 1988 1 North Carolina State University
11 Zydrunas Ilgauskas C 7-3 238 June 5, 1975 11
9 Cedric Jackson G 6-3 191 March 5, 1986 R Cleveland State University
00 Darnell Jackson F 6-9 253 November 7, 1985 1 University of Kansas
23 LeBron James F 6-8 240 December 30, 1984 6
4 Antawn Jamison F 6-8 223 June 12, 1976 11 University of North Carolina
5 Coby Karl G 6-5 215 March 6, 1983 1 Boise State University
15 Jamario Moon F 6-8 205 June 13, 1980 2 Meridian Community College
33 Shaquille O'Neal C 7-1 325 March 6, 1972 17 Louisiana State University
18 Anthony Parker G 6-6 215 June 19, 1975 6 Bradley University
44 Leon Powe F 6-8 240 January 22, 1984 3 University of California
3 Sebastian Telfair G 6-0 165 June 9, 1985 5
17 Anderson Varejao F-C 6-10 230 September 28, 1982 5
13 Delonte West G 6-4 180 July 26, 1983 5 Saint Joseph's University
31 Jawad Williams F 6-9 218 February 19, 1983 1 University of North Carolina
2 Mo Williams G 6-1 185 December 19, 1982 6 University of Alabama
Head Coach: Mike Brown

Completely different team with a different coach and system.
It's not like Bron was the only one on the team who left.

Lakers + Giants
05-30-2011, 06:46 PM
Man, don't even bother, lakers24giants5 is an absolute clown, he's given no indication that he understands basketball or even how time works to be frank.

LMAO. So i'm a clown for stating my own opinion? PSD the only forum where stating your own opinion is considered hating if others don't agree. Seriously that's what forums are for. Just in case you didn't know.

rabzouz 96
05-30-2011, 06:54 PM
traded, because he never demanded out and had the heart of the champion to keep battling which is why I was extatic when he got a ring: he deserved one. Lebron has gone through no hardship in his career and therefore has no reason to wine about not having a ring.

ridiculous.
1st thing is kg demanded out, thats why he was traded.
2nd thing is he admitted that it was dumb to stay this long with an inadept management and said he shoulcve done so earlier.
3rd thing lebron played how long there, 6 years? he never demanded out and had a long tenure there, he was smarter than kg and left when he still had some prime years in front of him.
4. he went through no hardship because he alone is enough to make a team a 2nd round team, as could be seen in cleveland.

ne3xchamps
05-30-2011, 07:09 PM
I had to pick Lebron. Its just amazing to me how bad the Cavs were this year without Lebron.

this.

godolphins
05-30-2011, 07:16 PM
Man, don't even bother, lakers24giants5 is an absolute clown, he's given no indication that he understands basketball or even how time works to be frank.
Good to know

CHANGO
05-30-2011, 07:23 PM
CP3 then Lebron and then KG

jrm2054
05-30-2011, 07:24 PM
I say KG

Jaji
05-30-2011, 07:24 PM
Another thread that shows how ridiculous the majority of posters are on this site. Garnett played with Stephon Marbury when he was an All Star and Tom Gugliata. They had 3 All Stars! Later he played with Latrell Sprewell and Terrel Brandon, also All Stars. Wally Zerbiak (sp) was one of LeBron's best teammates and he wasn't half as good as he was in Minnesota. CP3 had David West. Only All Star LeBron played with was a replacement, Mo Williams.

Jaji
05-30-2011, 07:27 PM
Outside of a year and a half when KG had Cassell and Sprewell on their last legs, what other support did he have?

CP3 has had Emeka Okafor, David West, Tyson Chandler, Peja Stojakovic, a good bench, Byron Scott as a coach and a great set of role players.

Lebron had Big Z as a 14 and 10 guy for 4-5 years, had shooters, had Varajeo, Mo Williams, Delonte West, Antwan Jamison, JJ Hickson, Boobie, and a great bench and system that was catered to play to his strengths as a player.

KG had Wally Szcerbiak as the second best player on the team for most of his time in Minnesota...he had Terrell Brandon on his last legs and injured...he had Rasho Nesterovic for a couple years as the starting 5...he really had next to no talent to play with...people can put Lebron on the pedistile all they want and justify him giving in after 7 years in Cleveland but the fact remains that he won a lot of games and got far into the playoffs in 6 of those 7 years in Cleveland. KG got out of the first round once, had to take year after year of being on losing teams and had even less support then Lebron...oh and played 11-12 years in that environment before he was traded, because he never demanded out and had the heart of the champion to keep battling which is why I was extatic when he got a ring: he deserved one. Lebron has gone through no hardship in his career and therefore has no reason to wine about not having a ring.

What about Googs and Marbury and Sprewell? 3 All Stars you just happened to fail to mention :rolleyes:.

Ebbs
05-30-2011, 07:32 PM
I'm going to say Lebron by a nose.

Jaji
05-30-2011, 07:32 PM
No way KG had less help than LeBron. That is the most asinine claim I've ever heard on this site and I've heard some pretty ridiculous stuff on PSD. Wow.

Garnett played with 5 different All Stars. Guys who were All Stars while they were his teammate. Mo Williams made 1 All Star game with LeBron. That's it. Guys like Shaq, Ben Wallace, Wally, and Jamison were way past their primes in Cleveland and never made an All Star game while playing alongside LeBron.

rhino17
05-30-2011, 07:36 PM
I would put Tmac's Magic team in the poll instead of KG, the amount of talent KG had was a lot more than the other 3

nykobe24
05-30-2011, 07:56 PM
im saying garnett but its close......cp3 shouldn't even be in this discussion that 2008 squad was loaded with talent too bad they were inexperiance and lost to the spurs in game 7 at home....tbh if they won that series they PROBALLY would of beat the lakers and made it to the finals because the hornets that year was a bad matchup for my lakers

btw who has garnett played with that was relevant?

RCarlson85
05-30-2011, 08:01 PM
Definitely not KG, he had quite a few talented teammates over his tenure

I would say its Lebron, he never had anyone as good as David West on his team

Exactly, this is what I think too. KG did have some good people like Marbury, Terrell Brandon, Sprewell, Gugliotta, etc.

No one on the Cavs was close to as good as David West.

Il Mago50
05-30-2011, 08:07 PM
No way KG had less help than LeBron. That is the most asinine claim I've ever heard on this site and I've heard some pretty ridiculous stuff on PSD. Wow.

Garnett played with 5 different All Stars. Guys who were All Stars while they were his teammate. Mo Williams made 1 All Star game with LeBron. That's it. Guys like Shaq, Ben Wallace, Wally, and Jamison were way past their primes in Cleveland and never made an All Star game while playing alongside LeBron.

It's funny that you say that about having three different all-stars, let me explain my view.

First of all, you mentioned that the guys Lebron played with were past their primes. For this, all I want to point out is that Cassell and Sprewell were out of the league within a year and a half of playing with KG and were both pushing mid to later 30's when they played with him so I can't see how they were in their primes while Lebron's boys weren't.

When did Garnett trully start to become a star player in the league? Around his second or third year when he started putting up 18.5-20+ PPG, 10+ RPG, 4-5 APG, etc.

Rookie year (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/1996.html): He was the upporting cast, not the one who needed a supporting cast. Isiah Rider, Laettner and Gugliotta averaged 17+ PPG a piece while KG was a young cub.

Second Year: Gugliotta's team still at 20 and 9 while KG put up 17 and 7. Marbury's rookie year of 15 and 8 and no one besides that on the team.

Now we can start to talk about who KG played with as a star because it's in his third year that he became an all-star, not superstar, player in the league.

Third Year: Gugliotta averaged his usual 20 and 8, KG put up 18.5 and 9, Marbury averaged 17 and they had a decent bench. Won 45 games.

Fourth Year: KG starts putting up his 20 and 10 numbers, Marbury still there at 17 and 7, and after that it's Peeler, Joe Smith, and Terrell Brandon who score in the 12-14 range.

Fifth Year: KG's usual, Terrell Brandon at 17 PPG and Wally at 13, no one over 10 PPG besides that.

Sixth Year (00-'01): KG 22 PPG, Brandon 18 and Wally 14, no one over 10 either.

Seventh Year: KG with 21 a game, Wally with 19, Brandon and Billups with 12 and nothing significant after that.

Eighth year: KG 23, Wally 19, Troy Hudson with 14 and Rasho with 11.

The general pattern stays the same after that. KG lifts the heaviest load and a couple alright teammates are there with him.

How I seperate this argument people have with KG versus Lebron is this: Lebron was a star in the league with 27 PPG in his second year. He was already what Durant has become right now which is a superstar that could lead his team at least a few rounds into the playoffs. KG was not a superstar until his 4th or 5th year in the league and was second fiddle to other guys and was the supporting cast until that time. The support KG got between his 4th year and the end of his T-Wolves days were brutal compared to what Lebron had from his second year onward.

ichitownclowni
05-30-2011, 08:17 PM
Cp3

rabzouz 96
05-30-2011, 08:40 PM
It's funny that you say that about having three different all-stars, let me explain my view.

First of all, you mentioned that the guys Lebron played with were past their primes. For this, all I want to point out is that Cassell and Sprewell were out of the league within a year and a half of playing with KG and were both pushing mid to later 30's when they played with him so I can't see how they were in their primes while Lebron's boys weren't.

When did Garnett trully start to become a star player in the league? Around his second or third year when he started putting up 18.5-20+ PPG, 10+ RPG, 4-5 APG, etc.

Rookie year (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/1996.html): He was the upporting cast, not the one who needed a supporting cast. Isiah Rider, Laettner and Gugliotta averaged 17+ PPG a piece while KG was a young cub.

Second Year: Gugliotta's team still at 20 and 9 while KG put up 17 and 7. Marbury's rookie year of 15 and 8 and no one besides that on the team.

Now we can start to talk about who KG played with as a star because it's in his third year that he became an all-star, not superstar, player in the league.

Third Year: Gugliotta averaged his usual 20 and 8, KG put up 18.5 and 9, Marbury averaged 17 and they had a decent bench. Won 45 games.

Fourth Year: KG starts putting up his 20 and 10 numbers, Marbury still there at 17 and 7, and after that it's Peeler, Joe Smith, and Terrell Brandon who score in the 12-14 range.

Fifth Year: KG's usual, Terrell Brandon at 17 PPG and Wally at 13, no one over 10 PPG besides that.

Sixth Year (00-'01): KG 22 PPG, Brandon 18 and Wally 14, no one over 10 either.

Seventh Year: KG with 21 a game, Wally with 19, Brandon and Billups with 12 and nothing significant after that.

Eighth year: KG 23, Wally 19, Troy Hudson with 14 and Rasho with 11.

The general pattern stays the same after that. KG lifts the heaviest load and a couple alright teammates are there with him.

How I seperate this argument people have with KG versus Lebron is this: Lebron was a star in the league with 27 PPG in his second year. He was already what Durant has become right now which is a superstar that could lead his team at least a few rounds into the playoffs. KG was not a superstar until his 4th or 5th year in the league and was second fiddle to other guys and was the supporting cast until that time. The support KG got between his 4th year and the end of his T-Wolves days were brutal compared to what Lebron had from his second year onward.
while this is a well presented argument why kgs teams sucked, i dont get in which way lebron had more?

in his last season, mo williams had 15.8 points, antawn jamison in his 25 games had 15.8 points and shaq
in his 53 games had 12.3 no other player had over 10 points.

the year before he had mo williams with 17 and ilgauskas/delonte with slightly above 10.

the year before is even worse, with ilgauskas with 14 points and delonte, gibson with 10 respectively
and his other seasons pretty much fall in line with that.

now while you pointed out how pathetic kgs teams were, i fail to see where lebrons teams were any better, id even say numbers of the casts look worse for clevelands cast than kgs in his years 4-8. theyre certainly not far apart

Demonata
05-30-2011, 08:42 PM
Garnett had pretty much no support, I even remember him having to shoot 3s with the game on the line.

JordansBulls
05-30-2011, 09:23 PM
I was going to add Dwight to the equation as well, but the title of thread didn't have much more space.

NYKnickFanatic
05-30-2011, 09:25 PM
Wow, I voted for CP3 and definitely thought he would be the clear choice here. Kind of shocked to see people voted for KG rather than CP3. LeBron I could understand, but I would still have to go with CP3.

nykobe24
05-30-2011, 09:36 PM
I was going to add Dwight to the equation as well, but the title of thread didn't have much more space.

your joking right? lol dwight had plenty of support

Il Mago50
05-30-2011, 10:25 PM
while this is a well presented argument why kgs teams sucked, i dont get in which way lebron had more?

in his last season, mo williams had 15.8 points, antawn jamison in his 25 games had 15.8 points and shaq
in his 53 games had 12.3 no other player had over 10 points.

the year before he had mo williams with 17 and ilgauskas/delonte with slightly above 10.

the year before is even worse, with ilgauskas with 14 points and delonte, gibson with 10 respectively
and his other seasons pretty much fall in line with that.

now while you pointed out how pathetic kgs teams were, i fail to see where lebrons teams were any better, id even say numbers of the casts look worse for clevelands cast than kgs in his years 4-8. theyre certainly not far apart

I get what you're saying, but I believe that the cast of players that Lebron had were picked to adhere to the system they ran. They attempted to get a second shot creator once in Larry Hughes and it blew up in their faces. While they didn't have great scorers, you knew one or two of a group of four or five guys at least was going to provide secondary scoring behind Lebron, even in the days before Mo Williams. Also, while many of the players that Lebron played with didn't score, they were there for other purposes (i.e. Eric Snow, Varajeo, Moon, etc) whereas the players KG had alongside him were neither adhered to the system nor did they complement him the way Lebron's teammates did with their around the basket finishing and shooting to free him up. Just my view of their two situations.

SportsAndrew25
05-30-2011, 10:43 PM
Lebron had bums around him. To go from 61 wins to 19 wins in just one year is very telling.

broncosfan4eva
05-30-2011, 10:48 PM
I had to pick Lebron. Its just amazing to me how bad the Cavs were this year without Lebron.

If your gonna say that, then do u remember how bad minny was after they lost kg?

raidersrock99
05-30-2011, 10:53 PM
how about bosh in toronto has to be on this list

broncosfan4eva
05-30-2011, 10:57 PM
It's funny that you say that about having three different all-stars, let me explain my view.

First of all, you mentioned that the guys Lebron played with were past their primes. For this, all I want to point out is that Cassell and Sprewell were out of the league within a year and a half of playing with KG and were both pushing mid to later 30's when they played with him so I can't see how they were in their primes while Lebron's boys weren't.

When did Garnett trully start to become a star player in the league? Around his second or third year when he started putting up 18.5-20+ PPG, 10+ RPG, 4-5 APG, etc.

Rookie year (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/1996.html): He was the upporting cast, not the one who needed a supporting cast. Isiah Rider, Laettner and Gugliotta averaged 17+ PPG a piece while KG was a young cub.

Second Year: Gugliotta's team still at 20 and 9 while KG put up 17 and 7. Marbury's rookie year of 15 and 8 and no one besides that on the team.

Now we can start to talk about who KG played with as a star because it's in his third year that he became an all-star, not superstar, player in the league.

Third Year: Gugliotta averaged his usual 20 and 8, KG put up 18.5 and 9, Marbury averaged 17 and they had a decent bench. Won 45 games.

Fourth Year: KG starts putting up his 20 and 10 numbers, Marbury still there at 17 and 7, and after that it's Peeler, Joe Smith, and Terrell Brandon who score in the 12-14 range.

Fifth Year: KG's usual, Terrell Brandon at 17 PPG and Wally at 13, no one over 10 PPG besides that.

Sixth Year (00-'01): KG 22 PPG, Brandon 18 and Wally 14, no one over 10 either.

Seventh Year: KG with 21 a game, Wally with 19, Brandon and Billups with 12 and nothing significant after that.

Eighth year: KG 23, Wally 19, Troy Hudson with 14 and Rasho with 11.

The general pattern stays the same after that. KG lifts the heaviest load and a couple alright teammates are there with him.

How I seperate this argument people have with KG versus Lebron is this: Lebron was a star in the league with 27 PPG in his second year. He was already what Durant has become right now which is a superstar that could lead his team at least a few rounds into the playoffs. KG was not a superstar until his 4th or 5th year in the league and was second fiddle to other guys and was the supporting cast until that time. The support KG got between his 4th year and the end of his T-Wolves days were brutal compared to what Lebron had from his second year onward.

Very well said my friend

Hawkeye15
05-30-2011, 11:00 PM
garnett in minnesota

besides those 2 years he had with spree and cassel and those 2 1/2 years garnett virtually played with no one his whole tenure and not to mention garnett had a rougher time to even get to the finals

i mean KG had to go through Shaq/Kobe lakers and the Tim Ducan Led Spurs and Malone/Stockton on there last legs

not to mention how stacked portland was with sheed/wells/sabonnis/stoudemire/pippen

its easier just to say KG had more help because those 3 players alone are probably better than any1 bron or cp3 played with but considering the era as well.....the fact that KG damn near almost beat kobe and shaqs lakers playing PG and bringing the ball up was amazing enough...ill never forget that series that series made KG a legend even though they lost he played every position on the court

the actual players that were on the court that game for the wolves?

pg darrick martin
sg latrell sprewell
sf trenton hassel starting/wally sczerbiak
pf KG
C Michael Olowokandi

great post. You are swaying my opinion.

Tuck&Rolle
05-30-2011, 11:03 PM
KG easily but I wonder how they would have turned out if Marbury and KG stayed together in Minnesota. They were real young when Marbury left and I wonder if they could have ever won a championship together.

Ty Fast
05-30-2011, 11:05 PM
KG easy :pity: he led his team in almost every stat category every year. Paul had some solid role players, Lebron had Mo Williams Gooden Z Shaq. CP3 was never asked to rebound. Lebron played point forward so he is obviously going to rack up alot of stats but KG was nearly asked to play 1-5 KG was one of the most underrated players of his time.

those guy were and are garbage. lebron had the least by far.

uprightciti
05-30-2011, 11:23 PM
Kg dude did the right thing by splitting
Cp3 and lebron both have gms that get them talented dudes

Anyone that says otherwise is ********

rabzouz 96
05-31-2011, 12:01 AM
Kg dude did the right thing by splitting
Cp3 and lebron both have gms that get them talented dudes

Anyone that says otherwise is ********

interesting post you got there buddy, one can definitely see from the way you combine your words that u do this more often, i liked the part best where u said that cp3s and lebrons gms get them talented dudes, rated 5 stars, 10/10 post, repped and subbed.

Shareeb_omac2
05-31-2011, 12:27 AM
What about Vince Carter in Toronto...........?

Sadds The Gr8
05-31-2011, 12:52 AM
Wince isn't close to the player these 3 guys are

JasonJohnHorn
05-31-2011, 01:10 AM
There was only one season in the entire time that Garnett played in Minny that he had support, and that one season they made it to the conference finals where the officials destroyed all their hopes.

But for the rest of his time in Minny, they never got out of the first round. Wally? Seriously? The Candy Man? I mean, Wally was a decent player, but your number 2?

CP3 has already won in the first round, and I'd say without hesitation that outside of the season where Minny got to the conference finals, that David West and Okafor are better than any players who played alongside Garnett. CP3 has also had Chandler. He's had PJ Brown and Chris Andersen. Peja, Mo Pete, Bonzi Wells, Posey, Ariza and of course, the Immortal Mike James. That is some serious talent over the years, even if they werent all on the same team at the same time and some of the guys werent at their peak.

James had more talent around him than most realize. Boozer. Varajoa. Mo-Williams (who is a quality PG), Big Z. Jamison. I look at the Cavs like this: One man cannot get to the NBA finals. One man could NOT beat the Detroit Pistons in 06. He had to have a team, and he had one. A good one. They had trouble building around James because of cap restrictions. They needed a SG, and had Ariza signed there when he was a free agent, I believe they would have ran the guantlet and taken the trophy home. But when recruiting Ariza, James refused to make a promise that he was staying, and Ariza didnt want to sign with a team that didnt have a superstar. James shot his title chances in the foot when he did that. You cant recruit players to a team that you wont commit to. Its not possible. The Cavs front office made some bonehead moves, but bottom line, they had talent around James, and were short at shooting guard and thats about it. Shooting guard is not the hardest position to make up for when you are short. If the Bulls would win a title with Luc Longley starting at center, against a league of giants (Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Mourning, ect), then there is no reason that James shouldnt have been able to punch through with the squad he had. I think Pippen would have been able to more with that squad in his prime. Look what he did for the Bulls when they were short Jordan for the better part of a year and a half. There was a gaping whole at SG and C, and he still got them to game 7 against the Knicks and a first round win.

James has been made less effective in the playoffs by guys like Pierce, Deng, and Prince, and that is the reason why he hasnt been able to catch a ring yet. It had nothing to do with a lack of talent on his team. You give Jordan a team with Mo-Williams, Anderson V, Shaq, Hickson, Jamison, BigZ and West, and I promise you he comes away with a title.

nykobe24
05-31-2011, 01:18 AM
There was only one season in the entire time that Garnett played in Minny that he had support, and that one season they made it to the conference finals where the officials destroyed all their hopes.

But for the rest of his time in Minny, they never got out of the first round. Wally? Seriously? The Candy Man? I mean, Wally was a decent player, but your number 2?

CP3 has already won in the first round, and I'd say without hesitation that outside of the season where Minny got to the conference finals, that David West and Okafor are better than any players who played alongside Garnett. CP3 has also had Chandler. He's had PJ Brown and Chris Andersen. Peja, Mo Pete, Bonzi Wells, Posey, Ariza and of course, the Immortal Mike James. That is some serious talent over the years, even if they werent all on the same team at the same time and some of the guys werent at their peak.

James had more talent around him than most realize. Boozer. Varajoa. Mo-Williams (who is a quality PG), Big Z. Jamison. I look at the Cavs like this: One man cannot get to the NBA finals. One man could NOT beat the Detroit Pistons in 06. He had to have a team, and he had one. A good one. They had trouble building around James because of cap restrictions. They needed a SG, and had Ariza signed there when he was a free agent, I believe they would have ran the guantlet and taken the trophy home. But when recruiting Ariza, James refused to make a promise that he was staying, and Ariza didnt want to sign with a team that didnt have a superstar. James shot his title chances in the foot when he did that. You cant recruit players to a team that you wont commit to. Its not possible. The Cavs front office made some bonehead moves, but bottom line, they had talent around James, and were short at shooting guard and thats about it. Shooting guard is not the hardest position to make up for when you are short. If the Bulls would win a title with Luc Longley starting at center, against a league of giants (Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Mourning, ect), then there is no reason that James shouldnt have been able to punch through with the squad he had. I think Pippen would have been able to more with that squad in his prime. Look what he did for the Bulls when they were short Jordan for the better part of a year and a half. There was a gaping whole at SG and C, and he still got them to game 7 against the Knicks and a first round win.

James has been made less effective in the playoffs by guys like Pierce, Deng, and Prince, and that is the reason why he hasnt been able to catch a ring yet. It had nothing to do with a lack of talent on his team. You give Jordan a team with Mo-Williams, Anderson V, Shaq, Hickson, Jamison, BigZ and West, and I promise you he comes away with a title.

you the man:clap:

championships
05-31-2011, 01:19 AM
If your gonna say that, then do u remember how bad minny was after they lost kg?

And still is.

hugepatsfan
05-31-2011, 01:19 AM
There was only one season in the entire time that Garnett played in Minny that he had support, and that one season they made it to the conference finals where the officials destroyed all their hopes.

But for the rest of his time in Minny, they never got out of the first round. Wally? Seriously? The Candy Man? I mean, Wally was a decent player, but your number 2?

CP3 has already won in the first round, and I'd say without hesitation that outside of the season where Minny got to the conference finals, that David West and Okafor are better than any players who played alongside Garnett. CP3 has also had Chandler. He's had PJ Brown and Chris Andersen. Peja, Mo Pete, Bonzi Wells, Posey, Ariza and of course, the Immortal Mike James. That is some serious talent over the years, even if they werent all on the same team at the same time and some of the guys werent at their peak.

James had more talent around him than most realize. Boozer. Varajoa. Mo-Williams (who is a quality PG), Big Z. Jamison. I look at the Cavs like this: One man cannot get to the NBA finals. One man could NOT beat the Detroit Pistons in 06. He had to have a team, and he had one. A good one. They had trouble building around James because of cap restrictions. They needed a SG, and had Ariza signed there when he was a free agent, I believe they would have ran the guantlet and taken the trophy home. But when recruiting Ariza, James refused to make a promise that he was staying, and Ariza didnt want to sign with a team that didnt have a superstar. James shot his title chances in the foot when he did that. You cant recruit players to a team that you wont commit to. Its not possible. The Cavs front office made some bonehead moves, but bottom line, they had talent around James, and were short at shooting guard and thats about it. Shooting guard is not the hardest position to make up for when you are short. If the Bulls would win a title with Luc Longley starting at center, against a league of giants (Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Mourning, ect), then there is no reason that James shouldnt have been able to punch through with the squad he had. I think Pippen would have been able to more with that squad in his prime. Look what he did for the Bulls when they were short Jordan for the better part of a year and a half. There was a gaping whole at SG and C, and he still got them to game 7 against the Knicks and a first round win.

James has been made less effective in the playoffs by guys like Pierce, Deng, and Prince, and that is the reason why he hasnt been able to catch a ring yet. It had nothing to do with a lack of talent on his team. You give Jordan a team with Mo-Williams, Anderson V, Shaq, Hickson, Jamison, BigZ and West, and I promise you he comes away with a title.

If you blame Lebron for the lack of his supporting cast like this, KG deserves the same criticism. His HUGE deal definaely had to have affected MIN's front office moves while he was there.

swoosh15
05-31-2011, 01:27 AM
Wince isn't close to the player these 3 guys are

iīm going with vince carter in toronto, too.
...and in his prime (toronto, maybe first 2 or 3 years in new jersey) he def. was close to the players we are talking about.
Donīt forget his stats in these years and the hype in his first years. and that was not all because of his dunks.
he was also one shot away from makin it to the conference finals with a supporting cast that was very questionable...

Korman12
05-31-2011, 01:50 AM
Fantastic thread - I can't actually answer this question with certainty.

KG had to deal with a weaker supporting cast for a longer time, with a small stretch of a solid cast.

CP3 is still dealing with the problem.

And Lebron took maybe the weakest team ever to reach the NBA finals.

Larry Hughes
Sasha Pavlovic
LeBron James
Drew Gooden
Zydrunas Ilgauskas

... that's insane.

Phenomenonsense
05-31-2011, 02:07 AM
People still SEVERELY underestimate just how effective Varejao and Big Z were.

Bucsfan40
05-31-2011, 02:09 AM
They are all pretty bad

LakersIn5
05-31-2011, 02:28 AM
iverson

NetsPaint
05-31-2011, 04:18 AM
I don't know if it's been mentioned in here, but a lot of the time Chris Paul was injured last season David West stepped up and gave the team a chance to make the Playoffs.

This past season, Chris Paul for a lot of the season wasn't playing that well because of his knee, and they still made the Playoffs. He's had help.

Law25
05-31-2011, 04:54 AM
Outside of a year and a half when KG had Cassell and Sprewell on their last legs, what other support did he have?

CP3 has had Emeka Okafor, David West, Tyson Chandler, Peja Stojakovic, a good bench, Byron Scott as a coach and a great set of role players.

Lebron had Big Z as a 14 and 10 guy for 4-5 years, had shooters, had Varajeo, Mo Williams, Delonte West, Antwan Jamison, JJ Hickson, Boobie, and a great bench and system that was catered to play to his strengths as a player.

KG had Wally Szcerbiak as the second best player on the team for most of his time in Minnesota...he had Terrell Brandon on his last legs and injured...he had Rasho Nesterovic for a couple years as the starting 5...he really had next to no talent to play with...people can put Lebron on the pedistile all they want and justify him giving in after 7 years in Cleveland but the fact remains that he won a lot of games and got far into the playoffs in 6 of those 7 years in Cleveland. KG got out of the first round once, had to take year after year of being on losing teams and had even less support then Lebron...oh and played 11-12 years in that environment before he was traded, because he never demanded out and had the heart of the champion to keep battling which is why I was extatic when he got a ring: he deserved one. Lebron has gone through no hardship in his career and therefore has no reason to wine about not having a ring.

This. Its funny how people forget just how bad K.G's teams were and he stayed for over an decade and how LOYAL he was to them.

todu82
05-31-2011, 08:22 AM
Chris Paul

koreancabbage
05-31-2011, 11:11 AM
as a power forward, you can't win in this league by yourself. its been proven with Garnett, Bosh, Stoudemire, Nowitzki, Boozer, Duncan etc.

All of them need good-to-great wing players cuz its a guard's league (SFs, SGs, PGs). Guards have the ball in their hands 75-80% of the time during the game. Elite PFs don't get the ball enough to make a substantial affect for the course of the game.

CP3 and Lebron didn't need to have a better supporting cast cuz they had the ball in their hands all the time and they dictate the flow of the game much better than PFs

ManRam
05-31-2011, 11:45 AM
KG had one year where his cast blew LeBron and Paul's out of the water. For a whole, it probably was worse, however.

He did have Stephon Marbury and Gugliotta his early years. Gugs made an AS game or two iirc, but that was before Starbury was really good. Not much here.

Then he entered the Brandon and Wally years. Wally was an AS I think one year, and Brandon was coming off his AS years. Brandon was a lot like Mo Williams IMO in terms of ability and point in his career. Chauncey came in, but again, that was a few years before his AS prime. Guys like Troy Hudson and the likes were cycling in and out. Not great, not abysmal either.

In 03-04 he finally got a great team around him. Cassell's one AS game was that year. Spree was still very effective, and was a 4 time AS. Wally was shooting lights out all year. Their bench was pretty solid. This team, hands down was better than anything LeBron and CP3 ever came close to having. They kind of fell apart the next year, even with a decent amount of talent. Spree and Sam left, and they plummeted back to mediocrity.

There wasn't much there, but there was a better window than LeBron and Chris have ever had. Those two also, arguably (not arguable in Bron's case), did more with as much or less at times.

KG's cast was the worse, especially because of longevity reasons, but not by a mile. LeBron is second, and CP3 is a distant three IMO.

Chronz
05-31-2011, 12:04 PM
This. Its funny how people forget just how bad K.G's teams were and he stayed for over an decade and how LOYAL he was to them.

Wait let me get this straight, you guys are holding it against LeBron for not doing something KG has acknowledged as a mistake? LMFAO

Loyalty doesnt help your legacy as much as winning titles

KG helped influence Brons decision to leave

Eagles4Lyfe
05-31-2011, 03:54 PM
You realize that they also had a completely different system in place and that Mike Brown's defensive schemes weren't there anymore either.

Varajeo missed most of the year. Williams was out a bunch of games before getting traded. The team was basically handed over to youngsters like Eyenga, Hollins, that 6'9 SF, etc. They weren't going to win anything this year but that doesn't mean that they weren't a great supporting cast when Lebron was there.

Lebron dominated the ball and what did he need to be successful? A low post threat, shooters and defenders. He had low post threats with Drew Gooden (consistently 14-10 while he was there), Big Z, etc. He had shooters in Williams, Gibson, Sczerbiak, Marshall, etc. And he had a great defensive mind as a coach and good team defense there with him. He had the help that he needed to be successful as a player.

CP3 shouldn't even be in the discussion, he's had more then enough help around him.

- KG didn't play with Gugliotta as an all-star.
- He had one good year of Cassell and Sprewell.
- His coaches were interchanged more often then the Raptors'
- Billups was no where near the player he turned out to develop into for the Pistons so that shouldn't be mentioned
- His best years with the Wolves, he carried the team and had Wally as the second best player, Rasho as the center, Troy Hudson as the third option, and a **** bench. He never had great pieces put around him and that's why they never won in the playoffs. He never had a team built around him like Duncan did that would compete for titles and that maximized his potential and skill as a player. Lebron had that, KG did not from his teammates.

Best post:clap::clap: my boy doing work proud of you hommie, represent

JordansBulls
05-31-2011, 03:58 PM
iverson

He played with prime Melo.