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ldawg
05-29-2011, 01:32 PM
Pippen was a very good smart player. He read the floor well, had good handles, Played solid defense, Ran the floor well, finishes around the basket in the open floor and was a very decent shooter. One of the most rounded players of all time. If you had to choose a player today that reminds you of Pippen in form of tallent who would it be? There is also talk that he was Jealous of Mj and felt he was just as good if not better as a player. Did he have what it takes and could Bull have made him their Franchise player?

theheatles
05-29-2011, 01:36 PM
pippen finished 3rd in the mvp voting the yr jordan played baseball, so the notion that jordan made pippen is exaggerated to an extent

ManRam
05-29-2011, 01:39 PM
Hard to tell if he was a franchise player, but I think so. He could do everything well, including being one of, if not the best, perimeter defenders ever.

In 1994 when MJ was playing baseball, he did take the Bulls to 55 wins and forced the Knicks (a very great team that lost to the Rockets in 7 in the Finals) to 7 games.

He went 22/9/6 that year, shooting 49% with 3 steals and a block a game. He was First Team All-NBA and First Team All-Defense.

The guy was as 7 time all-star and made 7 all-NBA teams (3 1st team).

I think he could have won as a first option, given the right team around him (just like any other player needs).

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 01:42 PM
best defender of all time. and he was no slouch on offense. he would was absolutley a franchise player. pippen was a beast.

Hawkeye15
05-29-2011, 01:42 PM
that is a tough question. He is borderline for me, but I agree with ManRam. He showed in the year MJ was gone that he was a top 5 player, at least for that year, which qualifies you as a franchise player imo

AddiX
05-29-2011, 01:43 PM
Peppin was not a franchise player.he was an all star and a all around good player. He was like the Shane Marion of his time. Great complimentary piece, but not a franchise guy.

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 01:44 PM
pippen in his prime >> pierce, carter, tmac, iverson, marbury, steve fancis, if you considered any of those guys franchise players in theyre prime then pippen was def a franchise player.

allSUAVE
05-29-2011, 01:46 PM
he would be nothing with out jordan .

phantasyyy
05-29-2011, 01:49 PM
Peppin was not a franchise player.he was an all star and a all around good player. He was like the Shane Marion of his time. Great complimentary piece, but not a franchise guy.

this is probably the worst thing i have ever read on this forum..

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 01:49 PM
Peppin was not a franchise player.he was an all star and a all around good player. He was like the Shane Marion of his time. Great complimentary piece, but not a franchise guy.

LOL. Not surprised to see this post from the guy who said this:


I'm tired of bron acting like he can guard quick point guards. He's never been ever to guard any of these guys he said the same thing about rondo last year and as soon as it was apparent he couldn't guard rondo he never guarded him again.

For a superstar this guy is the biggest chump in the NBA. Yeah a 260 lb player is going guard the quickest player in the NBA, give me a break fkin break.

and this


Again, you are wrong, as usual.

Bron use to play the pg position in cle and when it was obvious he couldn't guard any pg in the NBA they ended that nonsense.

Bron just likes to boost his ego by saying stupid crap like I'll guard him. You might see bron guard rose a few times in the first quarter, and just like what happened with rondo, he will get destroyed and won't guard him again.

try another sport.

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 01:50 PM
this is probably the worst thing i have ever read on this forum..

He's said worse.

ManRam
05-29-2011, 01:51 PM
Shane Marion :laugh:

Is this a joke? It has to be.

Bill Simmons has him as the 24th best basketball player ever. B-R.com has him at #27. He's a HOFer and a member of the NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team.

Calling him "Shane Marion" is a disgrace.

ManRam
05-29-2011, 01:53 PM
he would be nothing with out jordan .

Except, without Jordan he was 3rd in the MVP voting, 1st team All-NBA, 1st team All-defense and forced the second best team in the league to a great 7 game series.

Yup, sounds like "nothing" to me :laugh:

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 01:55 PM
Peppin was not a franchise player.he was an all star and a all around good player. He was like the Shane Marion of his time. Great complimentary piece, but not a franchise guy.

first of all his name is shawn not shane. and 2ndly my man how the hek are you comparing pippen one of the nba's 50 greatest players to shawn marion? your talking about a hall of famer with 6 rings, who made severall all star games, defensive teams, all nba teams. your comparison is nuts bro.

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 01:55 PM
How many of you people who voted against Pippen actually saw him play?

JordansBulls
05-29-2011, 01:57 PM
Except, without Jordan he was 3rd in the MVP voting, 1st team All-NBA, 1st team All-defense and forced the second best team in the league to a great 7 game series.

Yup, sounds like "nothing" to me :laugh:

Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)




Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.



Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)



“He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”




“I went to a small school, so I had to be a jack of all trades and master a few,” said Pippen. “Defense was one thing I was really able to work at and get better.

“A lot of my instincts came from guarding Michael all the time in practice,” he added. “I had four other guys on my team, but I had schemes that I would throw out there depending on what he did. I’d say, ‘If I make Michael do this, then you go trap him.’ There were things I tried to do on defense to trigger him into a
mistake. He was a great player, and if you couldn’t try it on him in practice, there was nowhere else to try it.”



Pippen realized himself that going against MJ is what made him better.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909



“Michael was great at identifying things,” Krause said. “Would Pippen have been great someplace else? Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him.”



Seriously?? How many guys go from role player to star while already on a team with a superstar player?
Most superstars end up getting guys on their teams that are stars via free agency or trades. They hardly ever have a guy that turns into a star and it makes sense because how can a guy really excel when they are already playing with a superstar?
Fortunately for Pippen he was able to work and practice with MJ and he learned how to be a great player.


Pippen was great once he played on his own as the man, but the team was coming off a title as well and he was in the middle of his prime.

Again, there is a difference developing your game playing with a player that is widely considered the best to ever play and him leaving in the middle of his prime while you are now in yours and you benefiting from one another.

Example:
If a person studies to be an electrician and starts off a learner, but eventually he becomes a "journeymen" and he still works with the "master electrician" for a few years, what happens when the "master electrician" decides to move on?
Does the "journeymen" all of a sudden lose his ability to perform his duties because their is no "master electrician" around?
Or does he increase his knowledge benefiting from what was taught by the "master electrician" and being surrounded by the best in the occupation and applying what he learned to himself?

If he doesn't then it means the "master electrician" either wasn't a good teacher or he didnt know how to utilize his talents and assets well and/or that the "journeymen" didn't take to heart the dedication to put into learning the trade.

Hell Iverson took a team to the finals, but how many consider him a franchise player?

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 01:59 PM
Except, without Jordan he was 3rd in the MVP voting, 1st team All-NBA, 1st team All-defense and forced the second best team in the league to a great 7 game series.

Yup, sounds like "nothing" to me :laugh:

I dont think half these guys are old enough to have actually watched pippen. maybe they are judging the pippen who was on his last legs in portland ?

alot of ppl say jordan made pippen, would it be fair to ask the question if jordan didnt have pippen would he have won 6 ships ? i seriously doubt it. i beleive pippen was just as important to those title runs as jordan was. obviously jordan was the better player but even if you put magic johnson on the bulls jordan would have been the better player..

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 02:01 PM
Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)





Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)








Pippen realized himself that going against MJ is what made him better.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909




Seriously?? How many guys go from role player to star while already on a team with a superstar player?
Most superstars end up getting guys on their teams that are stars via free agency or trades. They hardly ever have a guy that turns into a star and it makes sense because how can a guy really excel when they are already playing with a superstar?
Fortunately for Pippen he was able to work and practice with MJ and he learned how to be a great player.


Pippen was great once he played on his own as the man, but the team was coming off a title as well and he was in the middle of his prime.

Again, there is a difference developing your game playing with a player that is widely considered the best to ever play and him leaving in the middle of his prime while you are now in yours and you benefiting from one another.

Example:
If a person studies to be an electrician and starts off a learner, but eventually he becomes a "journeymen" and he still works with the "master electrician" for a few years, what happens when the "master electrician" decides to move on?
Does the "journeymen" all of a sudden lose his ability to perform his duties because their is no "master electrician" around?
Or does he increase his knowledge benefiting from what was taught by the "master electrician" and being surrounded by the best in the occupation and applying what he learned to himself?

If he doesn't then it means the "master electrician" either wasn't a good teacher or he didnt know how to utilize his talents and assets well and/or that the "journeymen" didn't take to heart the dedication to put into learning the trade.

Hell Iverson took a team to the finals, but how many consider him a franchise player?

why does it matter ? the question is was pippen good enough to be a franchise player. doesnt matter how he became great as long as you agknowledge how great he was. thats the question of the thread.

and yes iverson was a franchise player in his prime. how the hell was he not ? you can say you dont like his atitude or take shots at his efficiency but the man was the face of his franchise simple and plain.

ManRam
05-29-2011, 02:03 PM
Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

Pippen realized himself that going against MJ is what made him better.

Seriously?? How many guys go from role player to star while already on a team with a superstar player?
Most superstars end up getting guys on their teams that are stars via free agency or trades. They hardly ever have a guy that turns into a star and it makes sense because how can a guy really excel when they are already playing with a superstar?
Fortunately for Pippen he was able to work and practice with MJ and he learned how to be a great player.


Pippen was great once he played on his own as the man, but the team was coming off a title as well and he was in the middle of his prime.

Again, there is a difference developing your game playing with a player that is widely considered the best to ever play and him leaving in the middle of his prime while you are now in yours and you benefiting from one another.

Example:
If a person studies to be an electrician and starts off a learner, but eventually he becomes a "journeymen" and he still works with the "master electrician" for a few years, what happens when the "master electrician" decides to move on?
Does the "journeymen" all of a sudden lose his ability to perform his duties because their is no "master electrician" around?
Or does he increase his knowledge benefiting from what was taught by the "master electrician" and being surrounded by the best in the occupation and applying what he learned to himself?

If he doesn't then it means the "master electrician" either wasn't a good teacher or he didnt know how to utilize his talents and assets well and/or that the "journeymen" didn't take to heart the dedication to put into learning the trade.

Hell Iverson took a team to the finals, but how many consider him a franchise player?

In Iverson's prime, he was a franchise player. If he wasn't, than Rose isn't either.

Anyway, the reason why he got good has nothing to do with how good he was. I'll judge him on how good he was, not all this "MJ is the only reason" stuff.

So you really think he wouldn't have been anything more than, let's say "Shane Marion", if he didn't play with Jordan?

Jordan didn't make him talented, he made him hungry. The talent, athleticism, skill and IQ were always there. Jordan just got him to maximize it all. Who's to say that hunger wouldn't have come out elsewhere? I don't buy it. I know you are a huge Bulls fan and probably know better than I do, but I don't buy it. The guy is a top 25-30 player of all time. He's a franchise player. He just happened to play with the GOAT...and forever will be judged differently because of it.

I just don't buy it. There was a dropoff when Jordan left, but it really wasn't huge, and it wasn't huge because he stepped up and became a top 5 player. Even with Jordan on the team, he made two 1st team all-NBA teams. That's impressive.

Shareeb_omac2
05-29-2011, 02:04 PM
This is a waste of time arguing because no factual evidence will ever support either side. Regardless if he had Jordan, he still had a really good team around him. How would it have worked out had he never played with Jordan at all? You also have to consider how things would of played out had Phil Jackson not installed the triangle offense using those key pieces.

I'm 50/50 on this one but the way Pippen tries to self proclaim how much people overlooked him is a bit silly. Jordan was obviously the main piece to the puzzle.

JordansBulls
05-29-2011, 02:04 PM
why does it matter ? the question is was pippen good enough to be a franchise player. doesnt matter how he became great as long as you agknowledge how great he was. thats the question of the thread.

and yes iverson was a franchise player in his prime. how the hell was he not ? you can say you dont like his atitude or take shots at his effiency but the man was the face of his franchise simple and plain.

Because if you go to a franchise at the get go as the man, basically he doesn't develop into what he became. Not saying he won't be a star, but he certainly won't be as good as he became without the growth of going against MJ in practice. Which is what aided him in being a franchise player. So to answer the question if goes to a franchise at the get go as the man, then no, but if it is how things were in reality then yes.

SportsFanatic10
05-29-2011, 02:05 PM
absolutely a franchise man.

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 02:05 PM
Shane Marion :laugh:

Is this a joke? It has to be.

Bill Simmons has him as the 24th best basketball player ever. B-R.com has him at #27. He's a HOFer and a member of the NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team.

Calling him "Shane Marion" is a disgrace.

this

Tanakid777
05-29-2011, 02:08 PM
he would be nothing with out jordan .

my god I hope you're joking

ManRam
05-29-2011, 02:08 PM
Because if you go to a franchise at the get go as the man, basically he doesn't develop into what he became. Not saying he won't be a star, but he certainly won't be as good as he became without the growth of going against MJ in practice.

How do you possibly know this JB? This is an assumption that you're stating as fact. For all we know he goes to a different team and becomes the man right away. He's thrown into situations he never was thrown into with Jordan and learns how to be a star and a team leader a different way. Jordan helped him a ton, sure, but without Jordan, maybe he becomes more of a #1 option and a different player.

Larry Hughes didn't magically become better when he went and played against LeBron in practice every day. It just isn't black and white like you say it is.

All assumptions, but I just can't get behind your claim 100%.

Yes, playing against the best helps a ton...but you're discrediting how good he was simply because he played with Jordan, not because he wasn't a great player. And that to me is a disservice. He was what he was, regardless of how he became it.

nycericanguy
05-29-2011, 02:09 PM
To me he wasn't a good enough scorer to really be a franchise guy. Yes he had that amazing year when Jordan left when he scored 22ppg and led them to 55 wins. But for his career he was usually a 16-18ppg guy.

He's very borderline, but to me he wasn't a top tier go to guy. Like Grant Hill in his prime before the injuries had a similar all around great game, but he also put up 21-25ppg every year.

Pippen was one of the best all around players ever to play though.

TylerSL
05-29-2011, 02:09 PM
This is a tough question. In the end I say yes Pippen was a franchise player on his own. However, I am not sure if he could have ever won a title being the #1 option. IMO the closest player to Pippen in the league today is Deron Williams. D-Will is definately a franchise player, but he needs help. I think Pippen would have been in the same boat as Williams.


I am even talking about Williams when he was in Utah.

JordansBulls
05-29-2011, 02:12 PM
How do you possibly know this JB? This is an assumption that you're stating as fact. For all we know he goes to a different team and becomes the man right away. He's thrown into situations he never was thrown into with Jordan and learns how to be a star and a team leader a different way. Jordan helped him a ton, sure, but without Jordan, maybe he becomes more of a #1 option and a different player.

Larry Hughes didn't magically become better when he went and played against LeBron in practice every day. It just isn't black and white like you say it is.

All assumptions, but I just can't get behind your claim 100%.

Yes, playing against the best helps a ton...but you're discrediting how good he was simply because he played with Jordan, not because he wasn't a great player. And that to me is a disservice. He was what he was, regardless of how he became it.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558



CHICAGO -- The Detroit Pistons may have toughened up the Bulls in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but Jerry Krause wouldn't give the Bad Boys any undue credit for contributing to Scottie Pippen's basketball manhood or his Hall of Fame career.

"No, Michael [Jordan] made him a man," said the Bulls' former general manager, now a scout for the White Sox. "The Pistons didn't have anything to do with that. Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And then when Phil [Jackson] brought the triangle [offense] in, it really helped him because he had all the physical skills to be great."





"And he had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death," Krause said. "The practices were great because you could see him at the end of the year start to grow and start to fight Michael . . ."



http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html



Would you still consider pippen to be included on the 50 greatest players list? I know that he pioneered/changed the way that his position was played creating more of a point-forward spot, which paved the way for players like melo and lebron. But he never did accomplish anything by himself, and proved in Portland that he couldn't carry a team.


Sam: You can't judge with Portland given he was well past his athletic prime and had lost basically all his explosiveness and was operating on guile. He was a much smarter player than ever given credit for, though many still question his top 50 inclusion. The notion is if not for Jordan, there would be no chance. And I tend to agree. If he were picked by the Clippers at No. 4 in that draft as he should have been, he would not have been a top 50 player because he couldn't create that much for himself. But he wasn't and he was the No. 2 part of six championships and was a multiple defensive player and gold medalist on the Dream Team. So he deserves the recognition and will be inducted into the Hall of Fame as a result. Most everyone who has succeeded has benefitted from good timing on occasion. Pippen did as well, but he also made the most of it.


Pippen certainly had talent, he lacked the mental aspect of the game which IMO is the biggest part of the nba after talent.

If we basing things on what happened and how he did as the man then yes he is a franchise player. If we are basing it on if he went to a franchise as the man from the get go, then he probably doesn't develop into a franchise player. That is what I am saying here, and what the articles point to.

theheatles
05-29-2011, 02:12 PM
best perimeter defender of all time. and he was no slouch on offense. he would was absolutley a franchise player. pippen was a beast.

fixed, but he's soon to be dethroned by LeBron

ManRam
05-29-2011, 02:12 PM
This is a tough question. In the end I say yes Pippen was a franchise player on his own. However, I am not sure if he could have ever won a title being the #1 option. IMO the closest player to Pippen in the league today is Deron Williams. D-Will is definately a franchise player, but he needs help. I think Pippen would have been in the same boat as Williams.


I am even talking about Williams when he was in Utah.

No franchise player doesn't need help...

That's not the definition of a franchise player. No player can win with no help.

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 02:12 PM
Because if you go to a franchise at the get go as the man, basically he doesn't develop into what he became. Not saying he won't be a star, but he certainly won't be as good as he became without the growth of going against MJ in practice. Which is what aided him in being a franchise player. So to answer the question if goes to a franchise at the get go as the man, then no, but if it is how things were in reality then yes.


when jordan left was pippen good enough to be the guy ? the answer is yes.

jordan being the reason pippen became great has no relevance to the question. pippen obviously had the potential in him to reach greatness. you dont just become that good with out having the potential and putting in the work. sure you can give all the credit in the world to jordan, fact of the matter is none of the other players jordan played with ever reached pippens level.

Mile High Champ
05-29-2011, 02:15 PM
Peppin was not a franchise player.he was an all star and a all around good player. He was like the Shane Marion of his time. Great complimentary piece, but not a franchise guy.

What an insult comparing Pippen to Marion. Pippen is the most underrated player the league has ever seen. He is the best peremeter defender in league history and is responsible for being the leagues first point forward. Pippen never gets enough credit for the role he played with those Bulls teams and I would without a doubt call him a franchise player. There was very little he could not do on the offensive end of the court.

ManRam
05-29-2011, 02:15 PM
fixed, but he's soon to be dethroned by LeBron

LeBron is a great defender, but Pippen was superior, for sure.

And JB, I'm just asking how do you know he doesn't develop without Jordan. I'm not saying Jordan didn't help him (you're saying he made Pippen), but saying he couldn't have been what he was without Jordan is crazy. How do you possibly know that?

I agree that Jordan's obsessive, abrasive and even sometimes detrimental desire to win at all costs helped Pippen become that competitor, but again, you saying he's not good because Jordan is the only reason he is good is a disservice. Quote whatever you want, you can't prove, and I think it's unfair to assume, that he wouldn't have figured it out elsewhere. Jordan isn't the only guy with a lot of hunger.


Not only do I think that you can't prove it...but it really has absolutely no relevance to question. We rate players based on what they were, not how they became that or who helped them become it. Pippen was what Pippen was...and IMO he was a franchise player and how he became that player is irrelevant.


Do you think less of Dwight because Hakeem helped him become what he is on offense? No. And if you did, that's foolish. He is what he is, and Pippen was what he was.

TylerSL
05-29-2011, 02:16 PM
No franchise player doesn't need help...

That's not the definition of a franchise player. No player can win with no help.

I guess I worded that badly. What I mean, is stick Pippen on the Denver Nuggets. OK, he would be the #1 player on that team and they would have a great cast for him. I just dont think he could win a title being the #1 guy on the team. You would have to add somebody who is better than Pippen on the team for them to win a championship. Thats what I meant.

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 02:16 PM
Following JB's logic the entire Chicago Bulls roster should have been full of Scottie Pippen's that Jordan magically improved to top 50 players.

JordansBulls
05-29-2011, 02:17 PM
when jordan left was pippen good enough to be the guy ? the answer is yes.

jordan being the reason pippen became great has no relevance to the question. pippen obviously had the potential in him to reach greatness. you dont just become that good with out having the potential and putting in the work. sure you can give all the credit in the world to jordan, fact of the matter is none of the other players jordan played with ever reached pippens level.
Well I guess if you consider that then guys like Dumars, Mchale, Kevin Johnson, Mark Price were franchise players as well.

Mile High Champ
05-29-2011, 02:17 PM
This is a tough question. In the end I say yes Pippen was a franchise player on his own. However, I am not sure if he could have ever won a title being the #1 option. IMO the closest player to Pippen in the league today is Deron Williams. D-Will is definately a franchise player, but he needs help. I think Pippen would have been in the same boat as Williams.


I am even talking about Williams when he was in Utah.

Putting Deron Williams and Pippen together is simply not cool.. :mad:

bringinwood
05-29-2011, 02:17 PM
The Pippen/Jordan combo was the DWade/LBJ combo of it's time for those who never saw Jordan and Pippen dominate the NBA for the better part of a decade...

However, the Pippen/Jordan combo played much better defense...

That's pretty damn scary if you ask me...

You aren't winning 72 games in a season without 2 franchise players on your roster...

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 02:17 PM
I guess I worded that badly. What I mean, is stick Pippen on the Denver Nuggets. OK, he would be the #1 player on that team and they would have a great cast for him. I just dont think he could win a title being the #1 guy on the team. You would have to add somebody who is better than Pippen on the team for them to win. Thats what I meant.

Jordan. Baseball. Pippen. Baskebtall. Bulls. 55 Wins. Playoffs. 7 games vs knicks who went to the NBA Finals. Really?

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 02:18 PM
Because if you go to a franchise at the get go as the man, basically he doesn't develop into what he became. Not saying he won't be a star, but he certainly won't be as good as he became without the growth of going against MJ in practice. Which is what aided him in being a franchise player. So to answer the question if goes to a franchise at the get go as the man, then no, but if it is how things were in reality then yes.

listen jordan played with alot of ppl and if what your saying is true they should all be in the hall of fame as well. you dont become at top 25 player of all time with out having the talent and hard work behind it.

is horrace grant a top 50 player of all time? ron harper ? steve kerr ? rodman ? kukoc ? all of these guys played with jordan. how come none of them ever became as good as pippen ??

yes i agree with you that jordan made his team mates better but to say that pippen wouldnt great if he never played with jordan is a huge stretch

John Walls Era
05-29-2011, 02:18 PM
Yes. One of the first "Point Forwards". Great defender. Actually led a team close to the championship without MJ that year they lost to the Knicks...

TylerSL
05-29-2011, 02:20 PM
Jordan. Baseball. Pippen. Baskebtall. Bulls. 55 Wins. Playoffs. 7 games vs knicks who went to the NBA Finals. Really?

thats what I mean tho. I dont think a team with Pippen being the #1 option would never win a title. That does not mean I am saying they would suck. I said he was a franchise player. They would have success, just not a title IMO.

ManRam
05-29-2011, 02:20 PM
Well I guess if you consider that then guys like Dumars, Mchale, Kevin Johnson, Mark Price were franchise players as well.

I don't. And I don't get why you are assuming this either. Flawed logic...to say the least.

JordansBulls
05-29-2011, 02:23 PM
I don't. And I don't get why you are assuming this either. Flawed logic...to say the least.

They all went just as far or further as the man.

Mile High Champ
05-29-2011, 02:23 PM
I don't. And I don't get why you are assuming this either. Flawed logic...to say the least.

Agreed, I don't see any relation what so ever..

SteBO
05-29-2011, 02:24 PM
If it wasn't for Hue Hollins and that bs call in the Knicks series, he would've made the Finals without MJ. By that alone, I would absolutely say that he would have been a great franchise player. But that's just me.

Dankster
05-29-2011, 02:24 PM
I really have mixed feelings about scottie's place in all time history let alone if he was a veritable franchise player. I personally saw him play since 88 (2nd yr) and I couldn't call him a "franchise player." When I think of Mj's hiatus during his father's death/attempt at Minor league baseball, I have 1 true vivid image of Scottie---sitting that play out in that playoff game when he found out the final offensive play was designed for Kukoc (who in fact hit the game winner.) Sorry, but that's an image forever embedded when you think of what Scottie could do on his own without MJ and a pretty good cast around him.

Aside from his being a borderline franchise player at best, its an absolute travesty he was selected to the 50 greatest players ever. I'm not going to go through the list, but there's a few players I find to be more deserving of that achievement....

Mile High Champ
05-29-2011, 02:28 PM
I really have mixed feelings about scottie's place in all time history let alone if he was a veritable franchise player. I personally saw him play since 88 (2nd yr) and I couldn't call him a "franchise player." When I think of Mj's hiatus during his father's death/attempt at Minor league baseball, I have 1 true vivid image of Scottie---sitting that play out in that playoff game when he found out the final offensive play was designed for Kukoc (who in fact hit the game winner.) Sorry, but that's an image forever embedded when you think of what Scottie could do on his own without MJ and a pretty good cast around him.

Aside from his being a borderline franchise player at best, its an absolute travesty he was selected to the 50 greatest players ever. I'm not going to go through the list, but there's a few players I find to be more deserving of that achievement....

Really? Not top 50 all time?

6 NBA Champion (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)
7 NBA All-Star (1990, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997)
3 All-NBA First Team Selection (19941996)
2 All-NBA Second Team Selection (1992, 1997)
2 All-NBA Third Team Selection (1993, 1998)
8 NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (19921999)
2 NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1991, 2000)

How does that not get you in elite company? He is the best peremeter defender the league will ever see making the ALL NBA First Defensive Team 8 Times.. 8 times..

Don't let one play define the career of such a terrific player. Pippen never gets his due and it is quite a shame to be honest.

JordansBulls
05-29-2011, 02:28 PM
If it wasn't for Hue Hollins and that bs call in the Knicks series, he would've made the Finals without MJ. By that alone, I would absolutely say that he would have been a great franchise player. But that's just me.

What happens if the Knicks don't get suspensions to Derek Harper for game 4 and get kicked out in game 3? You know that was when Kukoc hit the game winner? Knicks without those suspensions very well could have swept us that year. Not to mention we got a break in round 1 when the Cavs were missing both Daugherty and Nance.

ManRam
05-29-2011, 02:28 PM
They all went just as far or further as the man.

You're being too simplistic. They were never better players than Pippen though...even if they went farther as the #1 option...which I don't think they did.

When the hell did Mark Price go further than Pippen as "the man"?

Same with KJ? He made it to the Finals, but he was far from "the man".

McHale was never the best player on his team for a single year, unless I'm omitting something. Pretty sure he always had Larry and Parrish.

Elaborate, please.

JordansBulls
05-29-2011, 02:29 PM
I really have mixed feelings about scottie's place in all time history let alone if he was a veritable franchise player. I personally saw him play since 88 (2nd yr) and I couldn't call him a "franchise player." When I think of Mj's hiatus during his father's death/attempt at Minor league baseball, I have 1 true vivid image of Scottie---sitting that play out in that playoff game when he found out the final offensive play was designed for Kukoc (who in fact hit the game winner.) Sorry, but that's an image forever embedded when you think of what Scottie could do on his own without MJ and a pretty good cast around him.

Aside from his being a borderline franchise player at best, its an absolute travesty he was selected to the 50 greatest players ever. I'm not going to go through the list, but there's a few players I find to be more deserving of that achievement....

Pippen is clearly top 50. He is top 25-35 for sure based on accomplishments.

papipapsmanny
05-29-2011, 02:30 PM
eh pippen wasn't a franchise player. Per 36 he averaged 13.8 shots and 16.6 points per game for his career.

To me he is what Chris bosh is to wade or lebron. Really good, but not a franchise player. Even then Bosh probably has a little more impact on the game, since he is a better scorer and rebounder than pippen.

But pippen was very good

Edit Pippen was much better defensively so I would prob put him ahead of bosh in terms of impact on the game, but not by much

Dankster
05-29-2011, 02:31 PM
Wow I'm not even going to go into the fact that the majority of those awards he won he probably wouldn't ascertain had he not played with one of the greatest dynasties ever.

He was handed the keys to a team who won 3 straight and we saw what he could do on his own..It's not like this is completely hypothetical and never happened.. He's a great player no doubt, but I'd take Dominique on that list over him no question..And yes, I agree Pippen was a wonderful defender, but I personally didn't think his overall game warranted him as being considered a franchise player type like MJ, hakeem, Ewing, Malone, barkley, Thomas and Bird....

JordansBulls
05-29-2011, 02:32 PM
You're being too simplistic. They were never better players than Pippen though...even if they went farther as the #1 option...which I don't think they did.

When the hell did Mark Price go further than Pippen as "the man"?

Same with KJ? He made it to the Finals, but he was far from "the man".

McHale was never the best player on his team for a single year, unless I'm omitting something. Pretty sure he always had Larry and Parrish.

Elaborate, please.

1990 KJ leads the Suns past the MVP Magic Johnson when the Lakers had HCA. Suns get to the WCF.
Mark Price was the best player on the Cavs in 1992 that made the ECF.

Mile High Champ
05-29-2011, 02:32 PM
eh pippen wasn't a franchise player. Per 36 he averaged 13.8 shots and 16.6 points per game for his career.

To me he is what Chris bosh is to wade or lebron. Really good, but not a franchise player. Even then Bosh probably has a little more impact on the game, since he is a better scorer and rebounder than pippen.

But pippen was very good

You can't look at those stats when looking at his talent. He played second fiddle to the best player of all time. Of course Pippen's PPG would be low considering the lack of opportunities he had to be the guy. You have to look at his talent and his ability and he had a lot more than Chris Bosh..

Voodoo Alchemy
05-29-2011, 02:33 PM
How many of you people who voted against Pippen actually saw him play?

i started watching basketball in '79, so that should answer your question.

Mile High Champ
05-29-2011, 02:34 PM
Amazing how many people continue to overlook Pippen. I am so sick of these young kids comparing the all star players of today with all time Greats.

Comparing Pippen to Bosh, Marion etc. Is just plain stupid.. Come on guys..

BKdoubleStacker
05-29-2011, 02:34 PM
eh pippen wasn't a franchise player. Per 36 he averaged 13.8 shots and 16.6 points per game for his career.

To me he is what Chris bosh is to wade or lebron. Really good, but not a franchise player. Even then Bosh probably has a little more impact on the game, since he is a better scorer and rebounder than pippen.

But pippen was very good

Edit Pippen was much better defensively so I would prob put him ahead of bosh in terms of impact on the game, but not by much

lulz, yea I guess his sub-par defense didnt have much impact, or his scoring, passing, and rebounding

JordansBulls
05-29-2011, 02:35 PM
To me what is a franchise player? A franchise player isn't someone who gets to a team that has already won it all already. A franchise player is someone who goes to a team that has to transform the team into legit contenders. Bulls had already won 3 titles in a row and added 5 new players in 1994. So he didn't go to a new franchise, he was pretty much at a franchise that already knew how to win at that point.
This isn't the same as Iverson in Philly or Vince in Toronto where they went to franchises that were bad from the get go.

rhino17
05-29-2011, 02:36 PM
One season without Jordan is not evidence of him being a franchise player

His attitude was what would have prevented him from ever being a franchise player, he was petty and selfish on the court, a bad teammate, and a crappy guy

papipapsmanny
05-29-2011, 02:36 PM
Amazing how many people continue to overlook Pippen. I am so sick of these young kids comparing the all star players of today with all time Greats.

Comparing Pippen to Bosh, Marion etc. Is just plain stupid.. Come on guys..

dude I watched pippen plenty, he was not a franchise player

ManRam
05-29-2011, 02:37 PM
1990 KJ leads the Suns past the MVP Magic Johnson when the Lakers had HCA. Suns get to the WCF.
Mark Price was the best player on the Cavs in 1992 that made the ECF.

Price was not the best player in 1992. Daugherty was better. Even if he wasn't, he had 2 players playing with him that were basically as good as he was (Nance). Hell, Hot Rod had as good of a PER.

It wasn't a Pippen-like situation at all.

I forgot about KJ's early years. Still, Chambers was a 27 point scorer in the regular season. Chambers was an all-star too. They were Robin and Robin IMO. Again, not similar to Pippen's situation.

Pippen was clearly the best player on his team, those two guys were not. McHale especially wasn't. Dumars is more tricky.

JordansBulls
05-29-2011, 02:39 PM
Amazing how many people continue to overlook Pippen. I am so sick of these young kids comparing the all star players of today with all time Greats.

Comparing Pippen to Bosh, Marion etc. Is just plain stupid.. Come on guys..

Yeah I wouldn't go that far as comparing him to them. Pippen would be a top 10 player in the NBA today. Those guys (Marion is not), Bosh is a borderline top 10 player.

JordansBulls
05-29-2011, 02:40 PM
Price was not the best player in 1992. Daugherty was better. Even if he wasn't, he had 2 players playing with him that were basically as good as he was (Nance). Hell, Hot Rod had as good of a PER.

It wasn't a Pippen-like situation at all.

I forgot about KJ's early years. Still, Chambers was a 27 point scorer in the regular season. Chambers was an all-star too. They were Robin and Robin IMO. Again, not similar to Pippen's situation.

Pippen was clearly the best player on his team, those two guys were not. McHale especially wasn't. Dumars is more tricky.

You realize that Scottie in the playoffs was 3rd on the Bulls in Win shares and 4th on the team in WS/PER 48 minutes in 1994?

ManRam
05-29-2011, 02:40 PM
eh pippen wasn't a franchise player. Per 36 he averaged 13.8 shots and 16.6 points per game for his career.

To me he is what Chris bosh is to wade or lebron. Really good, but not a franchise player. Even then Bosh probably has a little more impact on the game, since he is a better scorer and rebounder than pippen.

But pippen was very good

Edit Pippen was much better defensively so I would prob put him ahead of bosh in terms of impact on the game, but not by much

OK.

1. If he were the team's best player, he would shoot more than 14 times a game. He was plenty efficient. He shot 18 times a game without Jordan, that's fine for a franchise player, especially when this franchise player can pass, rebound and defend way above-average for his position.

2. Calling him Chris Bosh is an insult, and you and I both know it. Glad you edited it. That was a laughable comparison.

Mile High Champ
05-29-2011, 02:44 PM
One season without Jordan is not evidence of him being a franchise player

His attitude was what would have prevented him from ever being a franchise player, he was petty and selfish on the court, a bad teammate, and a crappy guy

Right because you were in the huddles, the locker room, at his house etc. I bet you have a great idea of what he was like. I bet all those times you watched him on NBC gave you a great idea about if he was a crappy guy or not. Give me a break.

He was not selfish on the court, he played second fiddle to Jordan and was really the teams only true distributor.

dimedrpr
05-29-2011, 02:44 PM
I'm not sure how this is a legit question? The man is on the 50 greatest of all time team. That's ALL-TIME. Not in the 90's. Not defensive players. Straight up 50 greatest players ever. So how could he not be considered a franchise guy? Kids today, I swear.

jp611
05-29-2011, 02:44 PM
Guys peppin is no better than Shane Marion... End of discussion

ManRam
05-29-2011, 02:45 PM
You realize Scottie was 3rd on the Bulls in Win shares and 4th on the team in WS/PER 48 minutes in 1994?

No he wasn't. Unless you mean in the playoffs. All year, he was the best player, by a huge margin, no matter what stat you look at. The other guys simply were not.


Come on JB. You know Pippen meant far more to his team than KJ and Price did. He was clearly the best player. He was far better than everyone else on his team. Price had 2 guys with equal production ALL YEAR. KJ had a fellow all star and a 27/7 player.

Even so, Pippen lost to a far better team than KJ and Price lost to.

Rose was 3rd in WS/48 for the Bulls in the playoffs, was he not that important to his team?

Mile High Champ
05-29-2011, 02:46 PM
You realize that Scottie in the playoffs was 3rd on the Bulls in Win shares and 4th on the team in WS/PER 48 minutes in 1994?

Win shares never really grasp how good a player is on defense. I am not surprised by that one bit.

ManRam
05-29-2011, 02:47 PM
And lastly, JB. I get why you brought up those guys...to prove a point potentially flawed.


But how about we cut to the chase. You can't honestly tell me you think KJ, Dumars, McHale or Price were better than Scottie...can you?

AddiX
05-29-2011, 02:47 PM
LOL. Not surprised to see this post from the guy who said this:



and this



try another sport.

You either overate pippin or underage Marion, in his prime Marion was pretty damn good. And pippin is not a franchise player. Unlike the rest of you I actually watched basketball at that time and Remember it quite well.

Pip leached off Jordan the same way worthy leached off magic. If worthy or pip were on there own we would never if been having a conversation about there "greatness."

It's will be like when it's all said and done and people will say, is bosh a true franchise player. Those who remember it well will know the truth. Bum *** fans like you who can't analyze a sport for ish will just talk ish.

JordansBulls
05-29-2011, 02:49 PM
No he wasn't. Unless you mean in the playoffs. All year, he was the best player, by a huge margin, no matter what stat you look at. The other guys simply were not.


Come on JB. You know Pippen meant far more to his team than KJ and Price did. He was clearly the best player. He was far better than everyone else on his team. Price had 2 guys with equal production ALL YEAR. KJ had a fellow all star and a 27/7 player.

Even so, Pippen lost to a far better team than KJ and Price lost to.

Rose was 3rd in WS/48 for the Bulls in the playoffs, was he not that important to his team?

Wait, how were the 1994 Knicks far better than the 1990 Blazers?
And Rose was behind Noah in WS/PER 48 minutes this past season but led in WS. There is no way you can use a guy who played 7 minutes in 16 games and say he had a greater WS/PER 48 minutes. Come on man, you know this.

JordansBulls
05-29-2011, 02:51 PM
And lastly, JB. I get why you brought up those guys...to prove a point potentially flawed.


But how about we cut to the chase. You can't honestly tell me you think KJ, Dumars, McHale or Price were better than Scottie...can you?

Mchale you certainly can say. Dumars maybe not, but his finals mvp does carry a lot of weight. I wouldn't say Price because his career wasn't long enough and his peak season wasn't as good. KJ didn't have as good a career.

papipapsmanny
05-29-2011, 02:52 PM
No he wasn't. Unless you mean in the playoffs. All year, he was the best player, by a huge margin, no matter what stat you look at. The other guys simply were not.


Come on JB. You know Pippen meant far more to his team than KJ and Price did. He was clearly the best player. He was far better than everyone else on his team. Price had 2 guys with equal production ALL YEAR. KJ had a fellow all star and a 27/7 player.

Even so, Pippen lost to a far better team than KJ and Price lost to.

Rose was 3rd in WS/48 for the Bulls in the playoffs, was he not that important to his team?

He is a better comparison.... Caron Butler I do not consider him a franchise player, but a very good one, and marion isn't a bad comparison either.

you all are just getting caught up in the moment it seems.

AddiX
05-29-2011, 02:52 PM
Shane Marion :laugh:

Is this a joke? It has to be.

Bill Simmons has him as the 24th best basketball player ever. B-R.com has him at #27. He's a HOFer and a member of the NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team.

Calling him "Shane Marion" is a disgrace.

Shane was clearly a typo, I use an iPad it does crazy stuff.

The whole top 50 list has just as much todo with fame and grtting bricked as it does with actual talent.

You guys forget, during the jordan years he was so big that players like will our due and bill Cartwright were even famous.

Worthy is a top 50 player too. He owes as that to magic. And I never said pip wasn't a great player, I said he wasn't a franchise player. Younguys have this idea that great complimentary players can all be franchise guys.

It's just not true. And people need to stop with all thisntalk about how good pip was the year Jordan left. That's like calling the nets a great team the two years they made the finals. There competition was medicre at best, same with pippens.

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 02:53 PM
You either overate pippin or underage Marion, in his prime Marion was pretty damn good. And pippin is not a franchise player. Unlike the rest of you I actually watched basketball at that time and Remember it quite well.

Pip leached off Jordan the same way worthy leached off magic. If worthy or pip were on there own we would never if been having a conversation about there "greatness."

It's will be like when it's all said and done and people will say, is bosh a true franchise player. Those who remember it well will know the truth. Bum *** fans like you who can't analyze a sport for ish will just talk ish.

I'm sorry I dont know who Shane Marion is.

Jaji
05-29-2011, 02:56 PM
How many sneakers did he sell? Exactly.

/thread

ManRam
05-29-2011, 02:58 PM
Shane was clearly a typo, I use an iPad it does crazy stuff.

The whole top 50 list has just as much todo with fame and grtting bricked as it does with actual talent.

You guys forget, during the jordan years he was so big that players like will our due and bill Cartwright were even famous.

Worthy is a top 50 player too. He owes as that to magic. And I never said pip wasn't a great player, I said he wasn't a franchise player. Younguys have this idea that great complimentary players can all be franchise guys.

It's just not true. And people need to stop with all thisntalk about how good pip was the year Jordan left. That's like calling the nets a great team the two years they made the finals. There competition was medicre at best, same with pippens.

I understand your points, but still...Shawn Marion? Really? ;)

Pippen was the ultimate complimentary player, for sure. But what if Bird played with Magic for his whole career. Would we think Larry was just a complimentary player? I'm not saying Pippen was as good as Larry (I'm not dumb), but how do we know that if given the shot Pippen couldn't have been a franchise player. Simply never having the chance doesn't mean he isn't.

I just think, without Jordan, you could easily assemble a team around him (like that 94 team) and a Pippen-led team could contend. That's my opinion. It's just an opinion, but I firmly believe it. Contending is contending. I don't care what the competition was (the Knicks weren't scrubs at all), contending is contending, and Pippen did it as the best player, and for a whole career without MJ, I do think he could do it regularly.

ManRam
05-29-2011, 02:58 PM
How many sneakers did he sell? Exactly.

/thread

Great argument ;)

How many shoes did Duncan sell?

Aapox
05-29-2011, 02:59 PM
I'm not sure how this is a legit question? The man is on the 50 greatest of all time team. That's ALL-TIME. Not in the 90's. Not defensive players. Straight up 50 greatest players ever. So how could he not be considered a franchise guy? Kids today, I swear.

Agreed.


You either overate pippin or underage Marion, in his prime Marion was pretty damn good. And pippin is not a franchise player. Unlike the rest of you I actually watched basketball at that time and Remember it quite well.

Pip leached off Jordan the same way worthy leached off magic. If worthy or pip were on there own we would never if been having a conversation about there "greatness."

It's will be like when it's all said and done and people will say, is bosh a true franchise player. Those who remember it well will know the truth. Bum *** fans like you who can't analyze a sport for ish will just talk ish.

That's quite a soapbox you've built for yourself there. I don't see how you compare Worthy leeching off of one of the best passers of all time to Pippen leeching off of one of the best scorers of all time. I think Magic made Worthy a lot better but Jordan did not make Pippen much better. Regardless, being condescending to everyone is not going to help any arguments you make.

You can't really say Jordan made Pippen because, as has been brought up, he was a beast and almost led the Bulls to finals in 1994 if it weren't for a bad call (happens, yes, but that's the fact of the matter).

Aapox
05-29-2011, 03:00 PM
It's just not true. And people need to stop with all thisntalk about how good pip was the year Jordan left. That's like calling the nets a great team the two years they made the finals. There competition was medicre at best, same with pippens.

You really think the mid 90's Knicks and Hakeem led Rockets were mediocre? I disagree.

rhino17
05-29-2011, 03:02 PM
Right because you were in the huddles, the locker room, at his house etc. I bet you have a great idea of what he was like. I bet all those times you watched him on NBC gave you a great idea about if he was a crappy guy or not. Give me a break.

He was not selfish on the court, he played second fiddle to Jordan and was really the teams only true distributor.

When Jordan was gone, do you realize how much he *****ed when he didnt get it his way, do you remember the whole last shot to Kukoc ordeal?

Why do you think Houston gave him up for absolutely NOTHING after he was there for a season, he was absolutely hated by his teammates and management because he was a douchebag and a selfish guy

allSUAVE
05-29-2011, 03:03 PM
Lol at the poll results.

Jaji
05-29-2011, 03:04 PM
Great argument ;)

How many shoes did Duncan sell?

What did sarcasm ever do to you?

ManRam
05-29-2011, 03:06 PM
When Jordan was gone, do you realize how much he *****ed when he didnt get it his way, do you remember the whole last shot to Kukoc ordeal?

Why do you think Houston gave him up for absolutely NOTHING after he was there for a season, he was absolutely hated by his teammates and management because he was a douchebag and a selfish guy

Calling Pippen selfish and a douchebag when Jordan was his teammate is a bit harsh. Jordan was the king of those two things...

I think he got traded, iirc, because of A) lockout related issues and B) his DUI earlier that year C) that team was on the decline, and they were starting the youth movement.

Pippen was a big part of that Portland team that lost to LAL in 2000 in the WCF. He was a solid player and helped the clubhouse out a lot.

ManRam
05-29-2011, 03:08 PM
What did sarcasm ever do to you?

I hate sarcasm ;) (that was sarcasm)

I don't know...with guys like AllSuave posting here, it's hard to tell sometimes who's serious and who isn't.

AddiX
05-29-2011, 03:10 PM
I understand your points, but still...Shawn Marion? Really? ;)

Pippen was the ultimate complimentary player, for sure. But what if Bird played with Magic for his whole career. Would we think Larry was just a complimentary player? I'm not saying Pippen was as good as Larry (I'm not dumb), but how do we know that if given the shot Pippen couldn't have been a franchise player. Simply never having the chance doesn't mean he isn't.

I just think, without Jordan, you could easily assemble a team around him (like that 94 team) and a Pippen-led team could contend. That's my opinion. It's just an opinion, but I firmly believe it. Contending is contending. I don't care what the competition was (the Knicks weren't scrubs at all), contending is contending, and Pippen did it as the best player, and for a whole career without MJ, I do think he could do it regularly.

All I'm saying is tue comparison between Marion and pippin are much closer than most people think. There skill set is completely identical. In there best years, Shawn dwarfs pip in a lot of stats.

And anyone who remembers those times remembers Jordan being double and triple teamed half the time. Anyone who says pip didn't greatly benefit from playing with mj is crazy.

And I agree, pip was the ultimate complimentary player. But that doesn't make him a true franchise player. Maybe you guys have a diferent view of what a franchise player is. But I hold a much higher expectation for that title than what pip was.

It's not am knock to say he was great but not a franchise player.

rhino17
05-29-2011, 03:14 PM
Calling Pippen selfish and a douchebag when Jordan was his teammate is a bit harsh. Jordan was the king of those two things...

I think he got traded, iirc, because of A) lockout related issues and B) his DUI earlier that year C) that team was on the decline, and they were starting the youth movement.

Pippen was a big part of that Portland team that lost to LAL in 2000 in the WCF. He was a solid player and helped the clubhouse out a lot.

Except Jordan was the best in the game, Pippen was not, Pippen was about himself, Jordan was about winning

And not, Pippen was traded because he wore out his welcome almost immediately in Houston

Even though they were old, a team consisting of Hakeem, Barkley, and Pippen should have had high hopes, but Pippen completes tore apart the locker room. His teammates and management hated his attitude and demeanor and wanted nothing to do with him, that is why he was traded, it had absolutely nothing to do with the reasons you listed

AddiX
05-29-2011, 03:14 PM
Agreed.



That's quite a soapbox you've built for yourself there. I don't see how you compare Worthy leeching off of one of the best passers of all time to Pippen leeching off of one of the best scorers of all time. I think Magic made Worthy a lot better but Jordan did not make Pippen much better. Regardless, being condescending to everyone is not going to help any arguments you make.

You can't really say Jordan made Pippen because, as has been brought up, he was a beast and almost led the Bulls to finals in 1994 if it weren't for a bad call (happens, yes, but that's the fact of the matter).

Worthy played with one of the greatest players of all time as did pip. That absolutely is a legit comparison.

Bench players on the bulls during those years were as famous as all stars on other teams. That's how big Jordan was at that time. He made everyone better and made you famous.

Pips exposure was through the roof because of mj. On a different team we wouldn't even be talking about pip today.

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 03:17 PM
dude I watched pippen plenty, he was not a franchise player

dude thats a pretty broad statement. care to back it up at all ?

Jaji
05-29-2011, 03:17 PM
All I'm saying is tue comparison between Marion and pippin are much closer than most people think. There skill set is completely identical. In there best years, Shawn dwarfs pip in a lot of stats.

And anyone who remembers those times remembers Jordan being double and triple teamed half the time. Anyone who says pip didn't greatly benefit from playing with mj is crazy.

And I agree, pip was the ultimate complimentary player. But that doesn't make him a true franchise player. Maybe you guys have a diferent view of what a franchise player is. But I hold a much higher expectation for that title than what pip was.

It's not am knock to say he was great but not a franchise player.

What you have to understand is that its not easier to get off playing alongside someone like Mike. Chris Bosh is perfect example. 24 ppg when he was the man in Toronto, only 18 when other great scorers are taking up shots. Ron Harper was a 24-25 ppg scorer in Cleveland and LAC, although older in Chicago, his average wasn't even half that. So instead of saying Pip only got off because of Jordan you should be looking at it in terms of Pip got off in spite of Jordan. Jordan was getting his 30 plus but even though he was the focal point of the offense, Pip was still gonna find a way to get you 22. That's impressive. And when MJ was gone, the Bulls did alright. And Pippen didn't even have a "Pippen" of his own that year.

ManRam
05-29-2011, 03:18 PM
Except Jordan was the best in the game, Pippen was not, Pippen was about himself, Jordan was about winning

And not, Pippen was traded because he wore out his welcome almost immediately in Houston

Even though they were old, a team consisting of Hakeem, Barkley, and Pippen should have had high hopes, but Pippen completes tore apart the locker room. His teammates and management hated his attitude and demeanor and wanted nothing to do with him, that is why he was traded, it had absolutely nothing to do with the reasons you listed

That team was a lost cause. The year after Pippen was gone, they didn't even make the playoffs.

I don't remember Pippen tearing apart the locker room TBH. I've always heard great things about him as a teammate. He had the 1.8 second inbounds issue, but besides that, every Bull player ever said Scottie was a great teammate.

ccugrad1
05-29-2011, 03:20 PM
he would be nothing with out jordan .

Agree 100%. I say Pippen is one of the most overrated players in NBA history. Just never saw what was so great about him.

rhino17
05-29-2011, 03:21 PM
That team was a lost cause. The year after Pippen was gone, they didn't even make the playoffs.

I don't remember Pippen tearing apart the locker room TBH. I've always heard great things about him as a teammate. He had the 1.8 second inbounds issue, but besides that, every Bull player ever said Scottie was a great teammate.
Pippen was shipped out, Barkley missed almost the entire season, and Hakeem missed half the year, thats probably the reason they missed the playoffs the following season

THey had plenty of potential for the next season with those 3 along with young guys like Cuttino Mobley and Michael Dickerson

cubswin25
05-29-2011, 03:22 PM
Yes Pippen game was very much like Lebron IMO. Yes Lebron is better, because he is bigger and stronger. But other then that they are similar players, especially Pippen in his prime. Towards the end of his career injuries started getting the better of him. But FG percentage,3 point percentage, APG, RPG and being quality defenders show they were somewhat similar players. Obvious Lebron scored more then Pippen, but Lebron also took way more shots as well.

nycericanguy
05-29-2011, 03:27 PM
What you have to understand is that its not easier to get off playing alongside someone like Mike. Chris Bosh is perfect example. 24 ppg when he was the man in Toronto, only 18 when other great scorers are taking up shots. Ron Harper was a 24-25 ppg scorer in Cleveland and LAC, although older in Chicago, his average wasn't even half that. So instead of saying Pip only got off because of Jordan you should be looking at it in terms of Pip got off in spite of Jordan. Jordan was getting his 30 plus but even though he was the focal point of the offense, Pip was still gonna find a way to get you 22. That's impressive. And when MJ was gone, the Bulls did alright. And Pippen didn't even have a "Pippen" of his own that year.

Scottie only scored 22ppg the year MJ left, his other years he was a 16-18ppg guy and 16ppg for his career

AddiX
05-29-2011, 03:28 PM
What you have to understand is that its not easier to get off playing alongside someone like Mike. Chris Bosh is perfect example. 24 ppg when he was the man in Toronto, only 18 when other great scorers are taking up shots. Ron Harper was a 24-25 ppg scorer in Cleveland and LAC, although older in Chicago, his average wasn't even half that. So instead of saying Pip only got off because of Jordan you should be looking at it in terms of Pip got off in spite of Jordan. Jordan was getting his 30 plus but even though he was the focal point of the offense, Pip was still gonna find a way to get you 22. That's impressive. And when MJ was gone, the Bulls did alright. And Pippen didn't even have a "Pippen" of his own that year.

I agree with you, which is exactly why I wouldn't consider bosh a franchise player. He has amazing talent, but would you build s team around him?

There is a huge difference. Stats in basketball tell a small part of the whole story. Bosh as the man in Toronto was a joke.

Pip played next to the greatest player in history, of course he benefited in a million ways from it. Not sure how that's even an argument.

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 03:34 PM
Because if you go to a franchise at the get go as the man, basically he doesn't develop into what he became. Not saying he won't be a star, but he certainly won't be as good as he became without the growth of going against MJ in practice. Which is what aided him in being a franchise player. So to answer the question if goes to a franchise at the get go as the man, then no, but if it is how things were in reality then yes.


how do you know if pippen went to utah and played with stockton and malone that he wouldnt be just as good as he was on chicago ?

no one knows that. not even pippen himself!

so lets stick to what we know. we know pippen is a hall of famer, probably the best perimiter defender of all time. give credit where its due man.

AND plus it goes both ways, if pippen is gaurding jordan in practice then yes he would get better, but jordan didnt get as good as he was because he was gaurding kerr in practice right ? he was probably gaurding pippen too.

AddiX
05-29-2011, 03:36 PM
And for everyone bashing me comparing pip to Marion, check there stats in there best 5-7 years.

Marion averages the same amt of pts, Less assists, way more rebounds, same amt of steals, both were great defensive players, Marion shot better Fg % And 3 pt %, more blocks, better ft %.

These two were far more similar than you guys want to give credit for. Difference is pip played with mj, and that gives you a lot of hype.

cubswin25
05-29-2011, 03:36 PM
Scottie only scored 22ppg the year MJ left, his other years he was a 16-18ppg guy and 16ppg for his career

He averaged over 20 PPG in 4 seasons. Yes two of them were when Jordan wasn't really there. But Pippen didn't really take a lot of shots to be a huge scorer those other years either. When you are playing next to Jordan, have a deep bench. Well you aren't gonna score like your capable of scoring. But if you put Pippen on average or bad teams in his prime. He probably is a 24-25 PPG scorer.

yoseppii12
05-29-2011, 03:39 PM
And for everyone bashing me comparing pip to Marion, check there stats in there best 5-7 years.

Marion averages the same amt of pts, Less assists, way more rebounds, same amt of steals, both were great defensive players, Marion shot better Fg % And 3 pt %, more blocks, better ft %.

These two were far more similar than you guys want to give credit for. Difference is pip played with mj, and that gives you a lot of hype.

Marion played on PHO. Pippen played on Bulls. PHO stats offensively are inflating due to how many possessions they played. I think the difference between points scored a game between the two teams is something around 8-12. Thats a lot more possessions considering most teams shoot around 50%

cubswin25
05-29-2011, 03:42 PM
And for everyone bashing me comparing pip to Marion, check there stats in there best 5-7 years.

Marion averages the same amt of pts, Less assists, way more rebounds, same amt of steals, both were great defensive players, Marion shot better Fg % And 3 pt %, more blocks, better ft %.

These two were far more similar than you guys want to give credit for. Difference is pip played with mj, and that gives you a lot of hype.

The difference is Pippen could create his own offense way better then Marion and carry a team. A lot of Marion success came from the system the Suns played in. You also could compare Pippen in his prime to Lebron as well. The only difference really is shots per game and points scored. For example in 91-92 when Pippen was 26. He averaged 21 PPG, with 16.6 shots per game, 7 APG, 7 RPG ,1.9 Steals per game and shooting 51 percent form the field. This season at 26 Lebron averaged 26.7 PPG, with 18.8 shots per game, 7 APG, 7.5 RPG with 1.6 steals per game and shooting 51 percent. So if Lebron the best player in the NBA right now, there's no doubt that Pippen was a great franchise like player in his prime.

pd1dish
05-29-2011, 03:48 PM
pippen finished 3rd in the mvp voting the yr jordan played baseball, so the notion that jordan made pippen is exaggerated to an extent

i agree.

the Bulls still had success when Jordan wasnt playing. in the '93-'94 season, they still won 55 games and they took the Knicks to game 7 in the second round of the playoffs. so obviously, Jordan had good players around him and Scottie was the best of them

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 03:56 PM
Except Jordan was the best in the game, Pippen was not, Pippen was about himself, Jordan was about winning

And not, Pippen was traded because he wore out his welcome almost immediately in Houston

Even though they were old, a team consisting of Hakeem, Barkley, and Pippen should have had high hopes, but Pippen completes tore apart the locker room. His teammates and management hated his attitude and demeanor and wanted nothing to do with him, that is why he was traded, it had absolutely nothing to do with the reasons you listed

this arguement is completly flawed.

how can you acuse pippen of being about himself when he played 2nd fiddle to jordan for soo many years and never complained about it ?

give me a break.

and by the time barkley got to houston he was fat and out of shape. plus your judging pippen based on his years after chicago ?? he was well passed his prime and so was barkley

AddiX
05-29-2011, 03:58 PM
Marion played on PHO. Pippen played on Bulls. PHO stats offensively are inflating due to how many possessions they played. I think the difference between points scored a game between the two teams is something around 8-12. Thats a lot more possessions considering most teams shoot around 50%

That has nothing to do with anything, Marion shoots a better % in every statistical category.

And just as anyone can say marions stats are inflated becuas of a system I could say the same thing about pip playing next to mj.

Seriously are you guys forgetting the way teams defended against mj? The entire defense was watching him.

cubswin25
05-29-2011, 03:59 PM
i agree.

the Bulls still had success when Jordan wasnt playing. in the '93-'94 season, they still won 55 games and they took the Knicks to game 7 in the second round of the playoffs. so obviously, Jordan had good players around him and Scottie was the best of them

Exactly that should proven that Pippen could carry a team. Too many fans are judging him from when he left the Bulls in 99 and how he didn't put up big numbers then. Well guess why he didn't put up big numbers? Well because he was 33 years old by then and injuries started getting to him. So anyone thinking Jordan made Pippen, doesn't know what their talking about. Pippen was a great player who took a backseat to Jordan. He bought into winning and not scoring the most points or having to be the man.

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 04:00 PM
And for everyone bashing me comparing pip to Marion, check there stats in there best 5-7 years.

Marion averages the same amt of pts, Less assists, way more rebounds, same amt of steals, both were great defensive players, Marion shot better Fg % And 3 pt %, more blocks, better ft %.

These two were far more similar than you guys want to give credit for. Difference is pip played with mj, and that gives you a lot of hype.

Have you seen marion shoot ? right there i rest my case.

comparing marion to pippen is like comparing carter to jordan.

valade16
05-29-2011, 04:05 PM
That has nothing to do with anything, Marion shoots a better % in every statistical category.

And just as anyone can say marions stats are inflated becuas of a system I could say the same thing about pip playing next to mj.

Seriously are you guys forgetting the way teams defended against mj? The entire defense was watching him.

They watched MJ when he played Baseball did they?

What is your reasoning for his 1st team All-NBA, 1st Team All-Defense, and 3rd MVP voting without MJ?

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 04:07 PM
Agree 100%. I say Pippen is one of the most overrated players in NBA history. Just never saw what was so great about him.

6x nba champion
7x all star
3x all nba 1st team
2x all nba 2nd team
2x all nba 3rd team
8x all defensive 1st team
2x all defensive 2nd team
1994 all star mvp

ya he was really over rated :confused:

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 04:12 PM
I love addix. He's so matter-of-fact and confident in his arguments. He refuses to budge. He's beyond confident. Like Skip Bayless.


I'm tired of bron acting like he can guard quick point guards. He's never been ever to guard any of these guys he said the same thing about rondo last year and as soon as it was apparent he couldn't guard rondo he never guarded him again.

For a superstar this guy is the biggest chump in the NBA. Yeah a 260 lb player is going guard the quickest player in the NBA, give me a break fkin break.


Again, you are wrong, as usual.

Bron use to play the pg position in cle and when it was obvious he couldn't guard any pg in the NBA they ended that nonsense.

Bron just likes to boost his ego by saying stupid crap like I'll guard him. You might see bron guard rose a few times in the first quarter, and just like what happened with rondo, he will get destroyed and won't guard him again.

I mean. You would think he would stop arguing with people as if he's Naismith and invented the ****ing game.

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 04:15 PM
6x NBA Champion (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
7x NBA All-Star (1990, 1992–1997)
1x NBA All-Star Game MVP (1994)
3x All-NBA First Team Selection (1994–1996)
2x All-NBA Second Team Selection (1992, 1997)
2x All-NBA Third Team Selection (1993, 1998)
8x NBA All-Defensive First Team Selection (1992–1999)
2x NBA All-Defensive Second Team Selection (1991, 2000)

Holds NBA records for:
Career assists by a forward (6,135)[14]
Career steals by a forward (2,307)[15]
Career steals in the playoffs (395)[16]
3-point field goals made in an NBA Finals game (7, shared with Kenny Smith and Ray Allen)
Achievements:
Pippen is one of three NBA players to record 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season (1989-90 season).
Michael Jordan performed the feat back-to-back in 1986-87 and 1987-88 seasons.
Hakeem Olajuwon in 1988-89 season.
Pippen had 17 career triple-doubles in regular-season games.
Led NBA in steals (232) and steals per game (2.94) in 1994-95 season.
Third-most 3-point field goals made by a Chicago Bull (664).
His 10 NBA All-Defensive honors and 8 NBA All-Defensive First Team honors are each one shy of the NBA record.
Was half of the 10th tandem to score 40 points in the same game.
Pippen scored 40 points and Michael Jordan scored 44 points against the Indiana Pacers on February 18, 1996
Was half of the 9th tandem (with Jordan) to record triple-doubles in the same game.
Pippen is one of four NBA players to lead his team in all five major statistical categories (points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals) in a season (1994-95 season).
Dave Cowens in 1977-78 season.
Kevin Garnett in 2002-03 season.
LeBron James in 2008-09 season.
Pippen was also a member of the Olympic gold medal winning USA Men's National Basketball Teams from 1992 ("Dream Team 1", Barcelona, Spain) and 1996 ("Dream Team 2", Atlanta, USA).

TheHighLife
05-29-2011, 04:15 PM
I vote yes.

AddiX
05-29-2011, 04:17 PM
I love addix. He's so matter-of-fact and confident in his arguments. He refuses to budge. He's beyond confident. Like Skip Bayless.





I mean. You would think he would stop arguing with people as if he's Naismith and invented the ****ing game.

I would agree on the skip bayless thing.:D

But I've noticed for all the ish you talk, you never have an educated reason for your answers. Your kind Of like an espn puppet. If there's hype, you'll believe it.

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 04:17 PM
Here you go: Pippen is one of four NBA players to lead his team in all five major statistical categories (points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals) in a season (1994-95 season).

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 04:18 PM
I would agree on the skip bayless thing.:D

But I've noticed for all the ish you talk, you never have an educated reason for your answers. Your kind Of like an espn puppet. If there's hype, you'll believe it.

For a guy who talks a lot of ish I would expect you to be like a genius or something. Basketball expert. Not some dumbass who thought Lebron couldn't guard Rose.

ldawg
05-29-2011, 04:22 PM
Imo Pippen was an above average player very solid jack of all trades but not sure he was franchise material. I think he was just that a complement to a great player or an asset to any team. A player every team in the nba wish they had but none i think would have built a team around him. Could he have won a ring or two without Jordan Being the best player on his team? i think so but on a team like Detroit Pistons that was build with all-stars but had no supper stars. I don't See pippen as a player you could have lean heavly on he was somewhat limited on the ofensive end. thats just an opinion.

AddiX
05-29-2011, 04:24 PM
Here you go: Pippen is one of four NBA players to lead his team in all five major statistical categories (points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals) in a season (1994-95 season).

I never said he was bad, said he wasn't a franchise player. Matter of fact I said numerous times he was a great complimentary player.

Throwing a bunch of stats around won't change that.

I guess it's kind of like saying is igUodala a franchise player? I'm not comparing him to pippin btw.

But he's a really good player, any team would love him, but do you consider him a true franchise player? Personally I wouldn't consider him a true franchise player. But that's just me.

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 04:28 PM
I'm going to say something that'll probably get me flamed too. People give Michael Jordan too much credit for the Bulls dynasty to the point where they have devalued Pippen to the point where people cannot even agree that he's a franchise player. People called Stevie "Franchise" Francise a franchise player in his prime for ****s sake.

I'm convinced that anyone who is voting against Pippen never saw him play and ignore his accomplishments with and without Jordan. Pippen is like that girl that you broke up with years ago, and then some time passes and you realize that you had something special.

How is Pippen not a franchise player? Look at his accomplishments and look at the numbers.

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 04:29 PM
I never said he was bad, said he wasn't a franchise player. Matter of fact I said numerous times he was a great complimentary player.

Throwing a bunch of stats around won't change that.

I guess it's kind of like saying is igUodala a franchise player? I'm not comparing him to pippin btw.

But he's a really good player, any team would love him, but do you consider him a true franchise player? Personally I wouldn't consider him a true franchise player. But that's just me.

In 1995, NBA GMs chose Scottie Pippen as the player they would choose to start a Franchise with.

What's your definition of a franchise player? Do you have something concrete? Name the franchise players in the NBA right now.

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 04:33 PM
Anyone who voted against Pippen. Please define franchise player and then proceed to list the current franchise players in the league.

ldawg
05-29-2011, 04:34 PM
In 1995, NBA GMs chose Scottie Pippen as the player they would choose to start a Franchise with.

What's your definition of a franchise player? Do you have something concrete? Name the franchise players in the NBA right now.where did u find that info

ldawg
05-29-2011, 04:42 PM
If i had to rate Pippen with a modern player i would have to go with Andre Iguodala he is the closest i could think of but a bit longer and with more knowledge of the game.

Crackadalic
05-29-2011, 04:43 PM
Pippen is the most underrated Top 50 player ever. Give the guy some respect

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 04:53 PM
If i had to rate Pippen with a modern player i would have to go with Andre Iguodala he is the closest i could think of but a bit longer and with more knowledge of the game.

thats even a worse comparison then shawn marion.

AddiX
05-29-2011, 05:04 PM
Anyone who voted against Pippen. Please define franchise player and then proceed to list the current franchise players in the league.

The ability to take over games on any given night, and consistently be the best or 2nd best player the floor night in and night out.

Just as I said before, iggy outs up great straw and is a heck of a player, nut he won't take the game over. That's what makes players like dirk, bron, wade, Kobe, all franchise guys.

Here's the ball, take the game over ability.

AB1984
05-29-2011, 05:09 PM
Pippen was definitely a great and franchise player. Some of these player comparisons are just ridiculous. The closest player to Pippen in his prime currently in the NBA has to be LeBron. Although I personally think Jordan was the best player ever there were a couple years where it was a legitimate debate if Pippen was a better all-around player

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 05:16 PM
anyone who voted against pippen. Please define franchise player and then proceed to list the current franchise players in the league.

this!

Lakers4ItAll
05-29-2011, 05:19 PM
Hell No, Jordan made him

RZZZA
05-29-2011, 05:22 PM
Yes, Pip was very, very good. People only think less of him because he played sidekick to the greatest basketball player of all time.

but ANYONE would look diminished playing next to the best basketball player of all time.

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 05:34 PM
Anyone who voted against Pippen. Please define franchise player and then proceed to list the current franchise players in the league.


Yes, Pip was very, very good. People only think less of him because he played sidekick to the greatest basketball player of all time.

but ANYONE would look diminished playing next to the best basketball player of all time.

also this! well said rza

Lakers211221
05-29-2011, 05:36 PM
Anyone that says Scottie Pippen wasn't good enough to be a franchise player either didn't watch Scottie Pippen play or doesn't know what they are talking about. Scottie was probably one of the 30 best players of all-time. Scottie was one of, if not THE, best perimeter defenders to ever play the game. Scottie was also a really good offensive player. Comparing him to Marion is one of the funniest things I have ever heard. You young kids who never saw him play shouldn't even comment on this thread.

Jaji
05-29-2011, 05:38 PM
Scottie only scored 22ppg the year MJ left, his other years he was a 16-18ppg guy and 16ppg for his career

In the 6 championship years he averaged 19.4 ppg along with 7 boards, 6.2 assists, 2 steals, and 1 block.

Lake_Show2416
05-29-2011, 05:38 PM
unlike the Celtics, i'll take him to build a team around easily

Lakers211221
05-29-2011, 05:38 PM
Pippen is the most underrated Top 50 player ever. Give the guy some respect

He should be considered a top 30 player in my opinion

Jaji
05-29-2011, 05:39 PM
I agree with you, which is exactly why I wouldn't consider bosh a franchise player. He has amazing talent, but would you build s team around him?

There is a huge difference. Stats in basketball tell a small part of the whole story. Bosh as the man in Toronto was a joke.

Pip played next to the greatest player in history, of course he benefited in a million ways from it. Not sure how that's even an argument.

Pippen could certainly be the focal point of a team. How could the supporting cast would determine how far the team went. Obviously Pippen isn't on the same level as Jordan but who is? Pippen is a HOF player. There's a reason for that. Pippen was a lot like Grant Hill when he was in Detroit, before he got hurt. Pippen was a better defender than Hill though. So no, I wouldn't have a problem building around Pippen. The Bulls did well with Pippen leading the way the year Jordan retired. That's a franchise player. Not an all time great, but like Paul Pierce a guy worth building around.

Chronz
05-29-2011, 05:40 PM
best defender of all time. and he was no slouch on offense. he would was absolutley a franchise player. pippen was a beast.
Yes


pippen in his prime >> pierce, carter, tmac, iverson, marbury, steve fancis, if you considered any of those guys franchise players in theyre prime then pippen was def a franchise player.
You didn't specify what stage in their careers those other players are at. Tmac was definitely better than Pip for a few years, he even played a similar game to pip only with infinitely superior handles and scoring ability



Jordan didn't make him talented, he made him hungry. The talent, athleticism, skill and IQ were always there. Jordan just got him to maximize it all. Who's to say that hunger wouldn't have come out elsewhere? I don't buy it. I know you are a huge Bulls fan and probably know better than I do, but I don't buy it. The guy is a top 25-30 player of all time. He's a franchise player. He just happened to play with the GOAT...and forever will be judged differently because of it.
I always found it hilarious that MJ gets credit for finally finding a teammate who didn't fold when pushed into intense practices and criticism from mike. That he could thrive alongside such a prick of teammate makes him great, we all know what mj did to kwame and that was an old mj.


I guess I worded that badly. What I mean, is stick Pippen on the Denver Nuggets. OK, he would be the #1 player on that team and they would have a great cast for him. I just dont think he could win a title being the #1 guy on the team. You would have to add somebody who is better than Pippen on the team for them to win a championship. Thats what I meant.
Your still wording it wrong, you see ANYONE can win a title if the support is great enough, its why titles aren't as meaningful as what you did in order to win. If Billups could win a finals mvp then pip could as well. **** lets replace Tayshaun with Pip, BAM instant title and hes the best player on the team ez.




thats even a worse comparison then shawn marion.
in terms of dominance sure but in terms of playing style, its a much better comparison, how many point forwards do you know of today .

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 05:40 PM
If i had to rate Pippen with a modern player i would have to go with Andre Iguodala he is the closest i could think of but a bit longer and with more knowledge of the game.

Andre Iguadala? Are you serious? I can't even wrap my head around this statement.


The ability to take over games on any given night, and consistently be the best or 2nd best player the floor night in and night out.

Just as I said before, iggy outs up great straw and is a heck of a player, nut he won't take the game over. That's what makes players like dirk, bron, wade, Kobe, all franchise guys.

Here's the ball, take the game over ability.

So the only franchise players in your opinion are: Dirk, Bron, Wade, and Kobe. I want a complete list if that's not it. Because I guarantee you that Pippen tops half the players on your list.

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 05:41 PM
The ability to take over games on any given night, and consistently be the best or 2nd best player the floor night in and night out.

Just as I said before, iggy outs up great straw and is a heck of a player, nut he won't take the game over. That's what makes players like dirk, bron, wade, Kobe, all franchise guys.

Here's the ball, take the game over ability.

So by your definition dwight howard is not a franchise player because he cant take over games offensvily night in and night out ? i beg to differ.

again iggy is a ******** comparison. are you just ignoring the posts that list all of pippens acheivments ? and then randomly throwing out names like iggy to compare when iggys profile doesnt even compare ? stop the madness bro.

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 05:41 PM
The notion that Pippen can't take over a game is laughable. Ask Michael Jordan if Pippen can take over a game. When the Bulls were facing in 0-2 hole in 94 and Pippen went off.

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 05:47 PM
The notion that Pippen can't take over a game is laughable. Ask Michael Jordan if Pippen can take over a game. When the Bulls were facing in 0-2 hole in 94 and Pippen went off.

these guys arent even backing up theyre statments im gonna rest my case in here .. the guys who knew and saw pippen play wouldnt be comparing him to iggy and marion.. the fact that they are making those comparisons tells me that i shouldnt even continue with these debates.

by the way is that riley in your avater from the boon docks ? lol that cartoon is crazy

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 05:50 PM
these guys arent even backing up theyre statments im gonna rest my case in here .. the guys who knew and saw pippen play wouldnt be comparing him to iggy and marion.. the fact that they are making those comparisons tells me that i shouldnt even continue with these debates.

Agreed. No one here is actually providing any evidence that suggests that Scottie Pippen in his prime (Chicago years) is not a franchise player. No one.

Andre Iguadola? Shawn Marion? What a disgrace.


by the way is that riley in your avater from the boon docks ? lol that cartoon is crazy


Haha yes.

RZZZA
05-29-2011, 05:50 PM
props for the riley avatar, that show was too good to be canceled.

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 05:53 PM
props for the riley avatar, that show was too good to be canceled.

Don't think it was cancelled. Aaron McG, the creator, never said whether or not they'll do a 4th season. I'm hoping for a 4th season. I love the show.

ldawg
05-29-2011, 07:34 PM
Andre Iguadala? Are you serious? I can't even wrap my head around this statement.



So the only franchise players in your opinion are: Dirk, Bron, Wade, and Kobe. I want a complete list if that's not it. Because I guarantee you that Pippen tops half the players on your list.Out of todays players who would you pic his game resembles? its hard to think of one player he is like a cross between Odom and Brandon Roy? He was good but not imo great his numbers would always drop in the playoffs. He was not a great scoorer but he did manage 22ppg avg without jordan. nothing great but solid. So top 30 like somone suggest i think not. very lucky to be in top 50. Someone even suggest like Lebron? no way. I think he benefited from playing with mj. They were like milk and cookies a perfect match. Not because a player is a good player it means you can build around them. Dennis Rodman is an hof too but i would not build a team around him either. I guess you can build around anyone but we mean building a great team.

jneises21
05-29-2011, 07:41 PM
Maybe the best defender of all time and still put up 22 points a game with someone who was putting up 30-35 kind of screams franchise player

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 07:45 PM
Out of todays players who would you pic his game resembles? its hard to think of one he is like a player between Odom and tmac? He was good but not imo great his numbers would always drop in the playoffs. He was not a great scoorer but he did manage 22ppg avg without jordan. nothing great.

I think people undervalue Pippen's defense.

AddiX
05-29-2011, 07:48 PM
Andre Iguadala? Are you serious? I can't even wrap my head around this statement.



So the only franchise players in your opinion are: Dirk, Bron, Wade, and Kobe. I want a complete list if that's not it. Because I guarantee you that Pippen tops half the players on your list.

If you want a complete list, make one your damn self. I just threw those out as examples.

AddiX
05-29-2011, 07:52 PM
So by your definition dwight howard is not a franchise player because he cant take over games offensvily night in and night out ? i beg to differ.

again iggy is a ******** comparison. are you just ignoring the posts that list all of pippens acheivments ? and then randomly throwing out names like iggy to compare when iggys profile doesnt even compare ? stop the madness bro.

Where did I say anything about Dwight?

And did you not read that I specifically said i wasn't comparing iggy to pippin?

No, you didn't, because you talk before you think, the same way that inbred melky does.

I feel bad for your mother, she probably wanted someone she could show off to her friends. Instead she got you.

magic0320
05-29-2011, 07:59 PM
P made to conference finals without jordan when jordan couldn't even make into playoffs XD just saying XD

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 08:02 PM
If you want a complete list, make one your damn self. I just threw those out as examples.

You can't say Scottie Pippen isn't a franchise player and then refuse to acknowledge the fact that your "franchise player" list is incomplete.

I'm sure D-Will, Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, and many more players are on your "franchise player list". Guess what, Pippen was better than all of them.

llemon
05-29-2011, 08:10 PM
I have to believe that anyone that knows anything about the NBA game would realize and understand that Pippen was not close to being a franchise player, and that Pippen more likely entered the area some NBA fans would call 'The Kennel'

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 08:11 PM
props for the riley avatar, that show was too good to be canceled.


Don't think it was cancelled. Aaron McG, the creator, never said whether or not they'll do a 4th season. I'm hoping for a 4th season. I love the show.

I have all three seasons on my ps3, i hope they make a 4th season. maybe they are being forced to stop the series because of its content but i love that show man its sick.

nickdymez
05-29-2011, 08:12 PM
Peppin was not a franchise player.he was an all star and a all around good player. He was like the Shane Marion of his time. Great complimentary piece, but not a franchise guy.

You dont know what your talkin about... Shawn marion of his time? wow!!!

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 08:13 PM
I have to believe that anyone that knows anything about the NBA game would realize and understand that Pippen was not close to being a franchise player, and that Pippen more likely entered the area some NBA fans would call 'The Kennel'

Name the franchise players in the league right now: Go.

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 08:17 PM
Yes


You didn't specify what stage in their careers those other players are at. Tmac was definitely better than Pip for a few years, he even played a similar game to pip only with infinitely superior handles and scoring ability

in terms of dominance sure but in terms of playing style, its a much better comparison, how many point forwards do you know of today .


you could say tmac was more offensvily gifted ofcourse, but pippen was a way better defender over all. also you have to factor in how injury prone tmac was. although he was great in his prime for a few years his legacy took a big hit because he wasnt able to win with yao on his team, another player that could have been great but was held back by numerous injuries.

as for iggy, sure i guess you can say they were similar in style but pippen was a waaaay better player then iggy. and im a fan of igoudala i just dont think you can mention his name in the same breath as pippen.

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 08:21 PM
I have to believe that anyone that knows anything about the NBA game would realize and understand that Pippen was not close to being a franchise player, and that Pippen more likely entered the area some NBA fans would call 'The Kennel'

i disagree, i think you can build a team around pippen in his prime. the pacers tried building a team around JO, and now they are trying to build around granger. the raptors tried to build around bosh, the 76ers tried to build around iggy, the grizzlies tried to build a team around rudy gay,

I can go on but you get my point. i would rather have pippen in his prime to build around over any of these guys in theyre prime.

llemon
05-29-2011, 08:21 PM
Name the franchise players in the league right now: Go.

Who is Go?

llemon
05-29-2011, 08:23 PM
i disagree, i think you can build a team around pippen in his prime.

Would that be the Bulls, the Rockets, or the Blazers......or the Bulls? LOL!!!!!

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 08:24 PM
Who is Go?

I'm curious. In your opinion, who are the franchise players in the league right now?

smith&wesson
05-29-2011, 08:28 PM
Would that be the Bulls, the Rockets, or the Blazers......or the Bulls? LOL!!!!!

try backing your **** up and ill agknowledge your attempt at humour.

llemon
05-29-2011, 08:28 PM
I'm curious. In your opinion, who are the franchise players in the league right now?

You've heard about what curiousity did to some cat somewhere, haven't you?

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 08:30 PM
You've heard about what curiousity did to some cat somewhere, haven't you?

You're incapable of engaging in intelligent conversation. All you do is state bold, unsupported claims and when you're challenge to defend them you fold.

Why can't you just define what a franchise player is to you, and name the franchise players in the league today. That way, we can get a sense of why Pippen doesn't fit in your world as a franchise player.

Pierzynski4Prez
05-29-2011, 08:31 PM
If it wasn't for Hue Hollins and that bs call in the Knicks series, he would've made the Finals without MJ. By that alone, I would absolutely say that he would have been a great franchise player. But that's just me.

This

Rivera
05-29-2011, 08:40 PM
yes you could build your team around pippen and be a successful team just off scotties pure talent alone

but i dont think you could ever win a championship with pippen as your best player.....the only reason i say that is his character and attitude...

i think scottie would have been a bigger diva with himself as a star just based off refusing to come back in the game in game 3 against the knicks

Jahari Kavi
05-29-2011, 08:47 PM
I wouldn't want Scottie as a first option but he is an ideal second option

Bruno
05-29-2011, 09:21 PM
Pippen lead a line-up of B.J. Armstrong, Pete Myers, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, Bill Winnington, Steve Kerr, ect to a 55 win season, and within one win of the ECF. They only won two less games without Jordan than they did the season before with MJ in the line-up.

Franchise player? Yes. For certain a successful franchise player? With the right supporting cast, possibly; we'll never know.

KingPosey
05-29-2011, 09:46 PM
Let me say this first. Pippen was a year in year out all star, he was awesome. But imo im not sure you win with him as the guy, or the team would have to be STACKED.

The problem is he spent his ENTIRE prime as the 2nd option accept for the year Jordan sat out. The Bulls did well, but then Pippen threw a fit on the biggest stage and sat when he didnt get the ball in a play.

We wont ever know what he could have done on his own really.

llemon
05-29-2011, 09:53 PM
You're incapable of engaging in intelligent conversation. All you do is state bold, unsupported claims and when you're challenge to defend them you fold.

Why can't you just define what a franchise player is to you, and name the franchise players in the league today. That way, we can get a sense of why Pippen doesn't fit in your world as a franchise player.

Aw, you sweet dumb little tulip blossom, did I confuse that little mind of yours in some way?

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 09:55 PM
Aw, you sweet dumb little tulip blossom, did I confuse that little mind of yours in some way?

Your maturity level astounds me.

llemon
05-29-2011, 10:06 PM
Your maturity level astounds me.

And your level of stupidity astounds me.

Shall we continue?

Hellcrooner
05-29-2011, 10:13 PM
only someone that either:

A) is too young to have seen him.

b) knows NOTHING bout basketball

coudl vote No to this question.

Bishnoff
05-29-2011, 10:22 PM
Hard to tell if he was a franchise player, but I think so. He could do everything well, including being one of, if not the best, perimeter defenders ever.

In 1994 when MJ was playing baseball, he did take the Bulls to 55 wins and forced the Knicks (a very great team that lost to the Rockets in 7 in the Finals) to 7 games.

He went 22/9/6 that year, shooting 49% with 3 steals and a block a game. He was First Team All-NBA and First Team All-Defense.

The guy was as 7 time all-star and made 7 all-NBA teams (3 1st team).

I think he could have won as a first option, given the right team around him (just like any other player needs).

This says it all. They lose the best player in the game and only lose 2 more games in the regular season (92-93: 57/25; 93-94: 55/27) with Pippen as the franchise player.

MelkyNYY
05-29-2011, 10:26 PM
And your level of stupidity astounds me.

Shall we continue?

No, we've about covered everything. Troll someone else.

KingPosey
05-29-2011, 10:28 PM
only someone that either:

A) is too young to have seen him.

b) knows NOTHING bout basketball

coudl vote No to this question.

That isnt true at all. I believe there is a case to be made that Pippen is not an ideal franchise player. Im not the one that believes it necessarily, but I wouldnt think someone is an idiot for not wanting Pippen as their team's number 1.

Chronz
05-29-2011, 10:30 PM
Pippen lead a line-up of B.J. Armstrong, Pete Myers, Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, Bill Winnington, Steve Kerr, ect to a 55 win season, and within one win of the ECF. They only won two less games without Jordan than they did the season before with MJ in the line-up.

Franchise player? Yes. For certain a successful franchise player? With the right supporting cast, possibly; we'll never know.

I think this is a statement that's getting overblown. The turnaround without mj was greater than the few games they lost. Its more like a 10 or 15 game difference when you consider a few measurable variables (eWins + injuries) with some subjective evidence (mj+pip gassed by olympics the year prior, underscoring their true talent level). When you consider these issues it makes sense why the team floundered the following year. The bulls became a .500 team, they add MJ for the stretch run and dominated until they got beat in the playoffs. But nobody brings up that 20_3 stretch or something.

Chronz
05-29-2011, 10:32 PM
This says it all. They lose the best player in the game and only lose 2 more games in the regular season (92-93: 57/25; 93-94: 55/27) with Pippen as the franchise player.
Dig deeper, if I weren't on the phone I'd delve into it, but no, it doesn't say it all.

llemon
05-29-2011, 10:44 PM
Excuse me, but we are talking about the player that wouldn't take the court at the end of an ECF elimination game, insulted his way out of Houston when he realized he couldn't make the Rockets (with Barkley and Hakeem) a contender, and was on the court when Blazers had their famous meltdown vs. Lakers in WCF, aren't we?

Pippen was a franchise player so long as that franchise had Michael Jordan as top dog.

Bruno
05-29-2011, 11:19 PM
I think this is a statement that's getting overblown. The turnaround without mj was greater than the few games they lost. Its more like a 10 or 15 game difference when you consider a few measurable variables (eWins + injuries) with some subjective evidence (mj+pip gassed by olympics the year prior, underscoring their true talent level). When you consider these issues it makes sense why the team floundered the following year. The bulls became a .500 team, they add MJ for the stretch run and dominated until they got beat in the playoffs. But nobody brings up that 20_3 stretch or something.

Fair points Chronz.

The '93 team had the worst regular season record out of any of the Bulls championship teams. I wasn't aware that Jordan and Pip were exhausted from the olympics either. The Bulls won ten more regular season games in '92 than they did '93. I can get behind your reasoning on that.

I like that stat. Just another example of a great team dropping off because of exhaustion (playing deep into June three years in a row, with stars dedicated to their national teams). Sounds familiar.

The 55 win '94 effort without MJ is impressive to me because that Bulls team was going for its 4th straight title, and had just come off three very long seasons. If we say that the '93 regular season effort was stifled because of exhaustion, then the same logic would apply to the '94 team, right? Same team, coming off three 100(ish) game seasons in a row. In that sense, I'd say it's impressive that that team got 55 wins without MJ because MJ wasn't the only one racking up heavy milage and minutes during their first three-peat.

As you said, perhaps an over-blown point. But I'd say it's still worthy of conversation.

Chronz
05-29-2011, 11:24 PM
No one game, no matter how great/bad defines a player. If an entire series can't do that then neither can one game. And Pippen wanted out of Houston because he hated his role and thought he had enough in him for their bigs to play around him rather than him standing and waiting. He was wrong but both of these circumstances were a result of his undying confidence

cowboysceltics
05-29-2011, 11:27 PM
Scotty Pippen was a very good player but was no way a franchise player. In the nba there are batmans and robins. Pippen was a robin! lol
He's in the same category as Bosh and Pau Gasol.
I'm not hating on Pippen. He was a good all around player. I loved his defence! Pippen has 6 titles but so may Bosh one day! lol

llemon
05-29-2011, 11:39 PM
No one game, no matter how great/bad defines a player. If an entire series can't do that then neither can one game. And Pippen wanted out of Houston because he hated his role and thought he had enough in him for their bigs to play around him rather than him standing and waiting. He was wrong but both of these circumstances were a result of his undying confidence

Undying confidence, or undying determination to prove he was as good as MJ?

And obviously, he failed every time Jordan wasn't there.

ldawg
05-30-2011, 12:09 AM
i guess he could have made an mediocre franchise player. Don't think it would have net him any rings as the best player on his team. After all he was blank without mj and he was on some very good teams. That Huston team is what we would call a super team.

D Roses Bulls
05-30-2011, 12:13 AM
I havent read what chronz said but i bet he said No to this question, but im going to disagree.

Raph12
05-30-2011, 02:01 AM
He's not a guy who could win as "the man" unless the second option is just as good, if not better than he is...

D Roses Bulls
05-30-2011, 02:07 AM
He's not a guy who could win as "the man" unless the second option is just as good, if not better than he is...

most people agree, even "experts" he would opf carried the bulls to the finals in 94 if it wasn't for that horrible call in the knicks series. he might have not won the finals, but he would of probably of carried them to the finals. pippen was regarded as a top 5-7 player in the game at the time. all star mvp at the time and also one of the 50 greatest players ever.

BigCityofDreams
05-30-2011, 11:16 AM
Shane Marion :laugh:

Is this a joke? It has to be.

Bill Simmons has him as the 24th best basketball player ever. B-R.com has him at #27. He's a HOFer and a member of the NBA's 50th Anniversary All-Time Team.

Calling him "Shane Marion" is a disgrace.

where can I find that link on B-R.com?

Car Ramrod
05-30-2011, 11:37 AM
pippen in his prime >> pierce, carter, tmac, iverson, marbury, steve fancis, if you considered any of those guys franchise players in theyre prime then pippen was def a franchise player.

I agree most of your statement except Iverson. Iverson was a better defender that most people gave him credit for. Offensively he took a million shots a game but he was ridiculous. I honestly believe if he could check his ego at the door he would still be an important part of a ton of teams in the NBA.

Pippen reminds me of a better version of Shane Battier. I still think he needed a scorer to play with and to think playing with Micheal Jordan doesn't create space you must've missed a decade of basketball.

He was a great all round player but he couldn't do it on his own.

BowDown
05-30-2011, 12:34 PM
OMG... did I just read someone compare Pippen to Marion?? WTF.

It's crap like that that makes me wonder about some people.

Chronz
05-30-2011, 04:14 PM
I havent read what chronz said but i bet he said No to this question, but im going to disagree.

I havent said anything about that, such a definition depends on your interpretation. Some people only consider a few select players to be franchise caliber, others have a much broader scale, in most cases neither one of them would be wrong so whats the point?

AddiX
05-30-2011, 04:25 PM
I havent said anything about that, such a definition depends on your interpretation. Some people only consider a few select players to be franchise caliber, others have a much broader scale, in most cases neither one of them would be wrong so whats the point?

Great point and exactly the one I was trying to make earlier when I brought up iggy and everyone here started having a fit, "omg your co paring pippin to iggy!"

No, I was just saying, some people would consider him a franchise player, I myself do not. To me, pippin is that level player. very good, but nit a guy you can legitimately build around and be any real threat.

If you ask is dirk, wade, bron, melo, are they far chose players, it's pretty unanimous.

SeoulBeatz
05-30-2011, 04:36 PM
How many of you people who voted against Pippen actually saw him play?

Exactly.

The year MJ was gone Pippen put up MVP type numbers.

He was an extremely talented player and was the best wing defender of all time.

That on top of all the offensive skills he possessed EASILY makes him a franchise player in my book.

Those who said otherwise were probably born in the 2000's lol. There's no way you could watch scottie play and not say he's a franchise player.

valade16
05-30-2011, 04:39 PM
Great point and exactly the one I was trying to make earlier when I brought up iggy and everyone here started having a fit, "omg your co paring pippin to iggy!"

No, I was just saying, some people would consider him a franchise player, I myself do not. To me, pippin is that level player. very good, but nit a guy you can legitimately build around and be any real threat.

If you ask is dirk, wade, bron, melo, are they far chose players, it's pretty unanimous.

I guess the Bulls of 94 and 95 or the Blazer team that was a 13 point catastrophe away from beating the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in the WCF weren't threats?

I'm a Blazer fan and I can tell you, Rasheed was our most talented player but Pippen was the heart of that team.

Your telling me prime Pippen on that Blazer team wouldn't have won a title?

Sorry, don't buy it.

Il Mago50
05-30-2011, 05:04 PM
pippen in his prime >> pierce, carter, tmac, iverson, marbury, steve fancis, if you considered any of those guys franchise players in theyre prime then pippen was def a franchise player.

I absoultely agree with this except for Pierce. The reason none of these guys won is because they were stars but not good enough to be the first option on a contender/championship team.

Pippen is one of the best two way player ever to lace them up but I don't think that a team with him as the first option can win the whole thing. To me, he would've been a middle tier franchise guy that would never win a ring, similar to what guys like Garnett, Gasol and others found out. There are only a handful of true "superstars" in the league that can lead a team to a championship. Back then, it was Barkley, Hakeem, Shaq, Jordan, Magic and Bird. Now it's Lebron, Kobe, Dwight, Wade and Dirk.

Everyone else is borderline or in that second level of guys who are ideally second options on a championship team. Pippen was one of these guys.

bringinwood
05-30-2011, 05:31 PM
dude I watched pippen plenty, he was not a franchise player

You may have watched him, but you don't understand basketball all that well...

Pippen, by himself, could have been a top 50 player all time...

He was the best wing defender of all time...

He was a very good rebounder, passer, and could have been a prolific scorer if he didn't have the best player in history playing SG every night...

It's not a hard question to answer...

Was he a franchise player based on his achievements ??? Without question...

Was he talented enough to be a superstar in the league if he was more selfish ??? Without question...

Did he forego much of the individual accomplishments to be a winner in this league ??? Without question...


Pippen spent a long time being the 2nd best two way player in basketball, talentwise...

That speaks to the level of dominance the Bulls had in the 90s...

eugene
05-30-2011, 05:32 PM
one of the best players ever played the game

AddiX
05-30-2011, 05:39 PM
I guess the Bulls of 94 and 95 or the Blazer team that was a 13 point catastrophe away from beating the Shaq/Kobe Lakers in the WCF weren't threats?

I'm a Blazer fan and I can tell you, Rasheed was our most talented player but Pippen was the heart of that team.

Your telling me prime Pippen on that Blazer team wouldn't have won a title?

Sorry, don't buy it.

I guess your forgetting how much $ they paid pippin and how when they got him they were expected to be the best team in the NBA. When they assembled that team lead by pip the hype for the blazers was insane that year.

And he only averaged something like 13 pts if I remember correctly, and the team was considered a major let down.

I remember those years very well buddy. on the blazers he ended up being 3rd or 4th option in most games. Remind you he was expected to be there franchise player. I'm amazed a blazers fan would even argue pip is a franchise player after that.

JayHunter
05-30-2011, 05:58 PM
I Loved Pip, and he was one of he best all-around players but I dont know if I would have built a team around him.I keep thinking about the playoff game against the knicks when he took himself out of the last play because Phil called the last play for Kukoc . I dont think he was a great leader (IMO).

Chronz
05-30-2011, 06:00 PM
Great point and exactly the one I was trying to make earlier when I brought up iggy and everyone here started having a fit, "omg your co paring pippin to iggy!"

No, I was just saying, some people would consider him a franchise player, I myself do not. To me, pippin is that level player. very good, but nit a guy you can legitimately build around and be any real threat.

If you ask is dirk, wade, bron, melo, are they far chose players, it's pretty unanimous.

I understood your Iggy comparison but I dont think your trying to say the same thing. If your going to list inferior players like Melo then hes easily a franchise caliber player. Its when you start to list players that the question becomes measurable. And quite simply whatever edge you think Melo has on Pip on offense (which personally doesnt exist if Melo isnt hitting his mid range shots), it absolutely does not compare to Pips advantage on defense.

AddiX
05-30-2011, 06:16 PM
I understood your Iggy comparison but I dont think your trying to say the same thing. If your going to list inferior players like Melo then hes easily a franchise caliber player. Its when you start to list players that the question becomes measurable. And quite simply whatever edge you think Melo has on Pip on offense (which personally doesnt exist if Melo isnt hitting his mid range shots), it absolutely does not compare to Pips advantage on defense.

Well we disagree there than, because I have seen very few teams in the history if the NBA that have been able to build a team around players who can't take the game over on the scoring end.

Melo does that, pip does not.

Almost every championship or championship caliber team is built around a great offensive player. Pippin had great offensive talents, but he was never a go to take the game over player.

He never had the skills for that. And either does iggy, which is why I used him as an example, not a comparison.

Jahari Kavi
05-30-2011, 06:32 PM
Pippen has got to be the most overrated/underrated player in NBA history imo......some people overrate him as an all time great player (which he is not), while others try to demenish the fact that he was still a great player during his era who was an ideal 2nd option because of his ability to score, create for others, rebound, and defend the best player on the perimeter........I don't think he had the offensive potency to necessarily be the "best" player on a championship team, but he most certainly is what everyone wants out of a second option.........

ldawg
05-30-2011, 07:20 PM
Building a team Pippen is the same as building a team around Granger, Brandon roy, Andre Iguodala, Granger, Corey Maggette, Grant Hill, Gerald Wallace, Lamar Odom, Antawn Jamison, Joe Johnson He is somewhere that company.

ldawg
05-30-2011, 07:22 PM
incorrect actually mj would be nothing without pippen.

he's said so himself, so did tex winter....

pipper was the most important piece of those teams, ask the damn players themselves lols...

actually they HATED mj, pippen was the glue kid......is that the same glue Jackson used on Fisher and Odom?

bagwell368
05-30-2011, 08:07 PM
Pippen was a very good smart player. He read the floor well, had good handles, Played solid defense

Pippen was a great defender (solid is a serious understatement). Athletic, all around, but he lacked the scorers punch a true franchise player has to have (assuming we are not talking a very few centers for the moment). Being the right hand man to a franchise player which was his role seems to be what he should have done.

But Pippen was probably the 6th-13th best player in the league a bunch of times. If Hakeem had him, and Jordan had Hakeems top side kick in any given year, the Title counts would be a lot different.

Chronz
05-30-2011, 11:48 PM
Pippen was a great defender (solid is a serious understatement). Athletic, all around, but he lacked the scorers punch a true franchise player has to have (assuming we are not talking a very few centers for the moment). Being the right hand man to a franchise player which was his role seems to be what he should have done.

But Pippen was probably the 6th-13th best player in the league a bunch of times. If Hakeem had him, and Jordan had Hakeems top side kick in any given year, the Title counts would be a lot different.

What if Hakeem and Clyde hooked up earlier? Which duo would you take and why?

Chronz
05-31-2011, 12:31 AM
Well we disagree there than, because I have seen very few teams in the history if the NBA that have been able to build a team around players who can't take the game over on the scoring end.
I dont see how building around an inefficient chucker who cant defend is a better proposition.

He can take over on the defensive end, he makes others around him better, and hes a quality scorer not elite but certainly great enough to be above Melo. If you were talking about a player like Tmac I could see your argument, but Melo has never been THAT good.



Melo does that, pip does not.
Let me ask you something, if we were to run through a list of what these 2 can do, do you really think Melo will edge him out? Keep in mind that hes constantly regarded as one of the games most well rounded players.


Almost every championship or championship caliber team is built around a great offensive player. Pippin had great offensive talents, but he was never a go to take the game over player.

Ive seen all sorts of teams win, Ive seen inferior players contend for titles with flaws much more glaring than his. I have no doubt he could win a title as his teams best player. Tell me how on earth Pippen manages to lose a title if you replaced Tayshaun Prince with Pippen. Unless your trying to say Richard Hamilton or Billups can take over the game offensively and should therefore considered superior.


He never had the skills for that. And either does iggy, which is why I used him as an example, not a comparison.
Iggy has a comparable skill set but he doesnt have the length to utilize it in the same manner. Pippen was straight up gangly, if you gave him an inch it was over, he wouldnt blow by you but he sealed you off quickly. And even Pip's mechanical jumper went in more frequently than Iggy's.

Chronz
05-31-2011, 02:06 AM
Fair points Chronz.
The '93 team had the worst regular season record out of any of the Bulls championship teams. I wasn't aware that Jordan and Pip were exhausted from the olympics either. The Bulls won ten more regular season games in '92 than they did '93. I can get behind your reasoning on that.
The talk at the time was that Pippen in particular needed a layoff. Look at his WS from 91-95: 11.2, 12.7, 8.6, 11.2, 11.8. Just by reverting to form, he brought the Bulls several extra wins over '93. WS isnt precise but it does show the difference in Pip's game. Horace Grant continued a trend of seesaw seasons, which in 93 meant a down year after surprisingly leading the league in PPP. Pippen definitely entered his prime that year though, the addition of Kukoc helped the Bulls twofold, not only by being extremely talented but by bringing out the hate in Scottie. Atleast until the playoffs when Pippen had that melt down.



I like that stat. Just another example of a great team dropping off because of exhaustion (playing deep into June three years in a row, with stars dedicated to their national teams). Sounds familiar.
Most teams that go on a tear one year fall off the next but yea I think I remember Simmons mentioning how teams that contend that long have lag years if the core stays the same. The 2 teams your thinking of are somewhat similar but the extremes were stronger in Chicago.


The 55 win '94 effort without MJ is impressive to me because that Bulls team was going for its 4th straight title, and had just come off three very long seasons. If we say that the '93 regular season effort was stifled because of exhaustion, then the same logic would apply to the '94 team, right? Same team, coming off three 100(ish) game seasons in a row. In that sense, I'd say it's impressive that that team got 55 wins without MJ because MJ wasn't the only one racking up heavy milage and minutes during their first three-peat.

So long as there was an off-season to rest and focus on their mind/body its not the same and neither was the roster, you underscore the significant additions of Longley, Kukoc, Kerr, Wennington and Myers. 44.3% of the Bulls' minutes were filled by new players. You also had the added motivation stemming from the team playing to prove something (which given their championship experience helps explain a +5 game improvement on their estimated win total), Scottie in particular getting a crack at the driver seat, Horace Grant in a contract year, in all you have a nice 50 win team. But it couldve been +65 win team with MJ. Especially when you consider that the 1995 team that was on that 43-39 pace was the same as the 1996 team, except for Jordan and Rodman. That team, as Im sure you already know, won 72 games. Other than MJ and Rodman, no one who played 700 minutes for the Bulls in 1996 was not on the team in 1995. So we can safely assume that adding Jordan and Rodman added around 29 wins to the team. Thats more indicative of MJ's impact than this 2 win difference suggests.


As you said, perhaps an over-blown point. But I'd say it's still worthy of conversation.
Meh, its what I would expect from that team, I get tired of people pointing to that team as an example of what MJ meant from a wins standpoint when the stats point a very different tale.

LakersIn5
05-31-2011, 02:31 AM
well he has a 92 rating in 2k11 so i guess thats superstar material

cowboysceltics
05-31-2011, 07:45 AM
In my opinion a franchise player should be dominant and be able to take over a game. I think if people are honest they will realize that Pippen was very good but not dominant.

Hellcrooner
05-31-2011, 08:08 AM
In my book a Franchise Player is someone that either

- Can take a **** like hell team to Playoffs

- Can take a good team far in the playoffs.

- Can make a STRONG team Win the finals.

Not to be confused with a SUPERSTAR
a superstar will

-Take a **** like hell team BEYOND first round.

- Make a good team a CHAMPION

- Make a strong team a DINASTY.


Pippen WAS good enough to take a Good team ti teh second round and WAS ROBBED by the ref of taking them to the East finals and it was possibel that to finals too.

You cant argue boutthat.

he simply had teh "bad luck" to fall into MJs team so he forever will be underated ( altough overated from other perpecstive)

Its like Worhty...
Worhty was AS GOOD OR BETTER than NIque WILKINS.

But Lakers picked him , so he got stuck behind Kareem and Magic and only later on he was allowed to lead a bit ( finals Mvp)

While Wilkins picked behind him became a supposed franchise player that every one had posters off and everybody remmebers as a great.

had Lakers picked wilkins and Jazz ( they traded the pick to Hawks) Picked Worhty

and we would see those players legacys radically different

btw this Worhty dude......happened to be the TEAM LEADER/FIRST OPTIOn/STAR on that Carolina team that also featured that other dude Michael Jeffrey whatever.

Bruno
05-31-2011, 05:33 PM
The talk at the time was that Pippen in particular needed a layoff. Look at his WS from 91-95: 11.2, 12.7, 8.6, 11.2, 11.8. Just by reverting to form, he brought the Bulls several extra wins over '93. WS isnt precise but it does show the difference in Pip's game. Horace Grant continued a trend of seesaw seasons, which in 93 meant a down year after surprisingly leading the league in PPP. Pippen definitely entered his prime that year though, the addition of Kukoc helped the Bulls twofold, not only by being extremely talented but by bringing out the hate in Scottie. Atleast until the playoffs when Pippen had that melt down.


Most teams that go on a tear one year fall off the next but yea I think I remember Simmons mentioning how teams that contend that long have lag years if the core stays the same. The 2 teams your thinking of are somewhat similar but the extremes were stronger in Chicago.


So long as there was an off-season to rest and focus on their mind/body its not the same and neither was the roster, you underscore the significant additions of Longley, Kukoc, Kerr, Wennington and Myers. 44.3% of the Bulls' minutes were filled by new players. You also had the added motivation stemming from the team playing to prove something (which given their championship experience helps explain a +5 game improvement on their estimated win total), Scottie in particular getting a crack at the driver seat, Horace Grant in a contract year, in all you have a nice 50 win team. But it couldve been +65 win team with MJ. Especially when you consider that the 1995 team that was on that 43-39 pace was the same as the 1996 team, except for Jordan and Rodman. That team, as Im sure you already know, won 72 games. Other than MJ and Rodman, no one who played 700 minutes for the Bulls in 1996 was not on the team in 1995. So we can safely assume that adding Jordan and Rodman added around 29 wins to the team. Thats more indicative of MJ's impact than this 2 win difference suggests.


Thanks for clarifying Chronz. I wasn't aware of the minute discrepancy and the fact that 44.3% of the teams minutes went to new players.