PDA

View Full Version : How many rings before...



RaidersLakers24
05-27-2011, 11:59 AM
Lebron surpasses Kobe,Duncan,and shaq in the all-time ranking list?

IMO he has to win 3 to pass shaq
4 to surpass Duncan
And 5 to pass Kobe
I still see Kobe winning 1 or 2 rings and if Dwight comes maybe 3!

In the end I think Lebron will win 2-3 rings I would say 3-4 but I just think Dallas will win it all this year they are just on top of their game... Dirk has been the best player in these playoffs and quite frankly Dallas shooting and barreas penetration will ultimately kill Miami and Dallas will finally have there revenge!

Mile High Champ
05-27-2011, 12:04 PM
It is not that easy really. You can't just say "X" number will guarantee Lebron is better than Duncan, Kobe & Shaq. This conversation is so far off, why do people insist to comparing players careers before one player is nowhere close to finishing their own.

ManRam
05-27-2011, 12:08 PM
I don't think counting rings is the best way to determine legacy honestly. Too many team-dependent variables. Ranking the greats by ring totals only is a foolish way to go about it.

I don't think he needs more than 3 really. He's been a better player than Kobe in his prime already. It is hard to compare him to Shaq and Duncan, however. That's a bit more tough.

But I don't really know. It all depends on how he plays. Even if he continues to play amazing and only leaves with 2 rings, he might have a shot. Too much of a crapshoot now

beasted86
05-27-2011, 12:11 PM
I don't know or about any of this because a lot more goes into legacy than just "X" amount of rings...

But I will say this... LeBron surely doesn't need 5 to pass Kobe. Kobe was the 2nd best player on the floor for 3 of his rings. Sure the Lakers couldn't have won without him, but it's an undeniable fact Shaq was the best player on that team. For that reason, LeBron doesn't need the same number as Kobe.

RaidersLakers24
05-27-2011, 12:14 PM
I don't think counting rings is the best way to determine legacy honestly. Too many team-dependent variables. Ranking the greats by ring totals only is a foolish way to go about it.

I don't think he needs more than 3 really. He's been a better player than Kobe in his prime already. It is hard to compare him to Shaq and Duncan, however. That's a bit more tough.

Kobe will end up higher on the all-time list then Duncan and shaq maybe even top 3-5 due to longevity and accomplishments

RaidersLakers24
05-27-2011, 12:15 PM
I don't know or about any of this because a lot more goes into legacy than just "X" amount of rings...

But I will say this... LeBron surely doesn't need 5 to pass Kobe. Kobe was the 2nd best player on the floor for 3 of his rings. Sure the Lakers couldn't have won without him, but it's an undeniable fact Shaq was the best player on that team. For that reason, LeBron doesn't need the same number as Kobe.

Your probably right but what happens when or if wade gets some of the finals Mvps? Wouldn't it be using the same logic?

lakerboy
05-27-2011, 12:16 PM
Lebron can never be like anybody. He is on DWade's and Bosh's nuts. It's like Jordan calling Hakeen and Magic, "Hey, let's play together!"

lakerboy
05-27-2011, 12:16 PM
Lebron is on Wade's team, plain and simple.

ManRam
05-27-2011, 12:25 PM
Lebron is on Wade's team, plain and simple.

Yeah. Wade really proved that this series :laugh:

mikealike305
05-27-2011, 12:26 PM
I don't think counting rings is the best way to determine legacy honestly. Too many team-dependent variables. Ranking the greats by ring totals only is a foolish way to go about it.

I don't think he needs more than 3 really. He's been a better player than Kobe in his prime already. It is hard to compare him to Shaq and Duncan, however. That's a bit more tough.

This.

ManRam
05-27-2011, 12:26 PM
Kobe will end up higher on the all-time list then Duncan and shaq maybe even top 3-5 due to longevity and accomplishments

I agree. I have him higher than those two barely. In their primes, Duncan and especially Shaq I think were better, but Kobe probably does win the longevity battle.

davids22
05-27-2011, 12:26 PM
God, not another one of these threads. It's going to turn into the same debate as what's going on in the Scottie Pippen thread.

Tmath
05-27-2011, 12:31 PM
Not 1, not 2, not 3 , not 4 , not 5, not 6, not 7

mikealike305
05-27-2011, 12:32 PM
Yeah. Wade really proved that this series :laugh:

Wade had a bad series but i think this series made people forget how good he was against Boston.
Whats great about this team is its both guys team, its not one or the other.
there are times it looks like its Wades team, and there are times it looks like its lebrons team

Lakerhead4ever
05-27-2011, 12:38 PM
I don't think counting rings is the best way to determine legacy honestly. Too many team-dependent variables. Ranking the greats by ring totals only is a foolish way to go about it.

I don't think he needs more than 3 really. He's been a better player than Kobe in his prime already. It is hard to compare him to Shaq and Duncan, however. That's a bit more tough.

But I don't really know. It all depends on how he plays. Even if he continues to play amazing and only leaves with 2 rings, he might have a shot. Too much of a crapshoot now

Thats a lie. everybody and their momma determine legacy by rings, in that case bill russel wouldnt ever be mentioned. so who let u think u can change the rules?

also if funny because duncan, and shaq name is in this and ppl only looking at kobes name, as if lebron is already ahead on shaq and duncan. which he isnt.

lebron has been killing in these playoffs. i must admit. but ppl are ALWAYS so quick to knock kobe for 3 rings because he had shaq, but lebron has wade and bosh and they are all at their pinnacle of their career, so s it fair to say we can knock lebron as well??

get serious ppl. lebron couldnt take his cavs team to the promise land, and he fled. he fled to a super team. his legacy would have put him one day at the top if he would have stayed in clev, and won, because he wouldnt have eventually won some rings.

JordansBulls
05-27-2011, 12:38 PM
Why do guys get future rings awarded to them is beyond me.

Atownballa5
05-27-2011, 12:40 PM
Lebron can never be like anybody. He is on DWade's and Bosh's nuts. It's like Jordan calling Hakeen and Magic, "Hey, let's play together!"

agreed, had lebron not gotten together with his buddies to ring chase he may not even be in the finals

cowboyz180
05-27-2011, 12:44 PM
that is a tough question... Especially because Shaq and Duncan play different positions than Lebron

beasted86
05-27-2011, 12:45 PM
Lebron can never be like anybody. He is on DWade's and Bosh's nuts. It's like Jordan calling Hakeen and Magic, "Hey, let's play together!"

Bosh = Hakeem?
Wade = Magic?

As a Heat fan, I'll just take this comment as a compliment.

Jaji
05-27-2011, 12:47 PM
First he needs to catch Adam Morrison :rolleyes:

allSUAVE
05-27-2011, 12:56 PM
He will never be over Kobe on the Alltime list "NEVER"

PhillyFaninLA
05-27-2011, 12:56 PM
I put Lebron at or ahead of them now.

If Jordan was on a bad team with a bad coach and no supporting cast he'd still be have been the best ever and he wouldn't have won a title. Titles require circumstance and being great doesn't.

Lebron can do things that Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe (the order I'd rank the mentioned names) just can't do. Lebron's skill is on par with Magic and as I said in another post I think in 10 years Jodan, Magic, and Lebron will be the names most of us are talking about as the top 3 ever.

ManRam
05-27-2011, 12:57 PM
He will never be over Kobe on the Alltime list "NEVER"

Why not? Individually, he's been better than Kobe in his prime. Now that he's on a team as good as Kobe had when he won 5, why can't he pass Kobe?

PhillyFaninLA
05-27-2011, 12:58 PM
He will never be over Kobe on the Alltime list "NEVER"

True because you can't pass a guy thats behind you.

allSUAVE
05-27-2011, 01:01 PM
Yea he needed Wade to Win that's how my future kids would remember that guy.

Kobe Duncan shaq will always be over him...so please!!

JordansBulls
05-27-2011, 01:05 PM
First he needs to catch Adam Morrison :rolleyes:

Honestly, are people really that crazy? I see people do this all the time, but it's not any less stupid each time it's done. In this particular example, Adam Morrison and Lebron James are NOT comparable players. Rings are not the difference maker in this case, because the two players are not on the same level. Players must be comparable in the first place (e.g., talent, role on team, etc.) before rings can be used to give one player the edge over another. Lebron > Morrison without rings even needing to come into play, and anyone with a brain knows this. Trying to argue to the contrary is ridiculous. Lebron is one of the greatest players of all time. Morrison is a role player. This is NOT a valid argument. You compare superstars to other superstars, and role players to other role players.

allSUAVE
05-27-2011, 01:07 PM
I'd accept that LeBron is the greatest physical specimen the NBA has ever seen including Shaq but won't be a top 10 player in history. When it's all said and done.

Tony_Starks
05-27-2011, 01:08 PM
Not catching Kobe in rings, and also not passing Kobe on the list.

Shouldn't even be in the same breath as Shaq, Shaq was the most dominant big to ever do it.


But he will get a couple of rings out of the deal. I just hope the same ones that hate on Kobe because he won with Shaq use that same logic and hold it against Lebron that he has Wade and Bosh......

RaidersLakers24
05-27-2011, 01:09 PM
I put Lebron at or ahead of them now.

If Jordan was on a bad team with a bad coach and no supporting cast he'd still be have been the best ever and he wouldn't have won a title. Titles require circumstance and being great doesn't.

Lebron can do things that Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe (the order I'd rank the mentioned names) just can't do. Lebron's skill is on par with Magic and as I said in another post I think in 10 years Jodan, Magic, and Lebron will be the names most of us are talking about as the top 3 ever.

:facepalm: come on man get outta here w all know your from phily so you hate Kobe but to say this about 3 of the top 10 players ever is disrespectful... All 3 are ahead of Lebron in every category as of now sure he has a chance to be better then the 3 but it's highly unlikely... I do think he will be the greatest sf ever though... All in all im going out on a limb and saying that he will surpass Duncan and maybe shaq but I still see Kobe adding to his resume and winning more championships as well which will eventually be too much for Lebron to overcome

allSUAVE
05-27-2011, 01:09 PM
MJ i would never call up Larry bird to say let's join forces I'm a competitive guy.

Enough said.

Tony_Starks
05-27-2011, 01:10 PM
Honestly, are people really that crazy? I see people do this all the time, but it's not any less stupid each time it's done. In this particular example, Adam Morrison and Lebron James are NOT comparable players. Rings are not the difference maker in this case, because the two players are not on the same level. Players must be comparable in the first place (e.g., talent, role on team, etc.) before rings can be used to give one player the edge over another. Lebron > Morrison without rings even needing to come into play, and anyone with a brain knows this. Trying to argue to the contrary is ridiculous. Lebron is one of the greatest players of all time. Morrison is a role player. This is NOT a valid argument. You compare superstars to other superstars, and role players to other role players.



Im going to go out on a limb and say maybe the guy was being sarcastic? :confused:

PhillyFaninLA
05-27-2011, 01:15 PM
:facepalm: come on man get outta here w all know your from phily so you hate Kobe but to say this about 3 of the top 10 players ever is disrespectful... All 3 are ahead of Lebron in every category as of now sure he has a chance to be better then the 3 but it's highly unlikely... I do think he will be the greatest sf ever though... All in all im going out on a limb and saying that he will surpass Duncan and shaq but I still see Kobe adding to his resume and winning more championships as well which will eventually be too much for Lebron to overcome


I respect others opinions and this is an opinion topic, can't be more with knowing how the rest of Lebron's career will go.

First of all what does being from Philly have to do with hating Kobe, geography and opinions of people are 2 different things. Of course they are statistically ahead of a guy that is 26.

I put Shaq ahead of Kobe and I think Kobe is at best the 3rd best Laker of all time and maybe even 4th or 5th. But that is still saying something. Kobe has been great but he wasn't as good as Magic or Shaq.

You bring up Kobe's rings and say that Lebron will never get there, first of all you don't know that, second of all as I said in the post you quoted titles are circumstantial and greatness is not. If Kobe was on Cleveland and Lebron on the Lakers the Lakers win the same number of titles and so do the Cavs.

Hawkeye15
05-27-2011, 01:30 PM
Lebron is on Wade's team, plain and simple.

you been in a coma for the last month?

AIRMAR72
05-27-2011, 01:31 PM
ive always said on here bron and wade came in the league BETTER than kobe both guys IQ and WILL power were greater than kobe and today they still better...kobe game is better his post moves are better but he lack substance(will power) im one of wade biggest fan and this my opinion wade is more skilled and its easier for him to get thru traffic compare to bron who needs a lane or a pick in halfcourt sets(they need a true PG) but bron WILL is stronger LOOK at the blocks at pressure KEY moments and the 3s thats WILL power.. SOMETHING is bothering wade hes a much better player and i hate to say this but heat are starting to look like bron team wade need to step his game up against dallas and show the league da heat belongs to him

RaidersLakers24
05-27-2011, 01:49 PM
I respect others opinions and this is an opinion topic, can't be more with knowing how the rest of Lebron's career will go.

First of all what does being from Philly have to do with hating Kobe, geography and opinions of people are 2 different things. Of course they are statistically ahead of a guy that is 26.

I put Shaq ahead of Kobe and I think Kobe is at best the 3rd best Laker of all time and maybe even 4th or 5th. But that is still saying something. Kobe has been great but he wasn't as good as Magic or Shaq.

You bring up Kobe's rings and say that Lebron will never get there, first of all you don't know that, second of all as I said in the post you quoted titles are circumstantial and greatness is not. If Kobe was on Cleveland and Lebron on the Lakers the Lakers win the same number of titles and so do the Cavs.

I'm sorry but no dude seriously? Your going by what ifs now which is stupid and no a 14-15 year old lebron wouldn't have won with shaq in his prime... He wouldn't have won the last title either he would've choked against Boston oh and Kobe>shaq maybe not prime wise but overall career forsure! And if Kobe wins 1 more ring he will be the greatest laker ever... And gtfo with Kobe being the 4 or 5 best laker ever at worst he's 3

Tony_Starks
05-27-2011, 02:00 PM
ive always said on here bron and wade came in the league BETTER than kobe both guys IQ and WILL power were greater than kobe and today they still better...kobe game is better his post moves are better but he lack substance(will power) im one of wade biggest fan and this my opinion wade is more skilled and its easier for him to get thru traffic compare to bron who needs a lane or a pick in halfcourt sets(they need a true PG) but bron WILL is stronger LOOK at the blocks at pressure KEY moments and the 3s thats WILL power.. SOMETHING is bothering wade hes a much better player and i hate to say this but heat are starting to look like bron team wade need to step his game up against dallas and show the league da heat belongs to him


Well not that it means anything but Phil Jackson said Kobe's will power to win was comparable to Jordans, so if anyone would know Im guessing its the guy that actually coached both players......

Yanks All Day
05-27-2011, 02:14 PM
The fact that LeBron James is only 26 years old and drawing these comparisons already is a testament to how good he is, and probably will be in the future. Let the guy play out his career first before we start comparing him to all time greats. Shaq's done, Duncan's pretty close to done, and Kobe's winding down. LeBron is just getting started. In 5-10 years, we will have a much clearer picture of where he stands.

If I had to guess, though, it would take about 4 rings to put him above them. Duncan and Shaq have 4, and Kobe has 5. None of them seem close to another title barring major changes to their respective teams. The forseeable future is the Heat's to dominate, so we'll know in the next few years.

Chronz
05-27-2011, 02:15 PM
LOL at Kobe being ahead of Shaq. Kobe won maybe 1 title in his prime, Shaq led a 3peet in most dominating fashion.

Chronz
05-27-2011, 02:17 PM
Thats a lie. everybody and their momma determine legacy by rings, in that case bill russel wouldnt ever be mentioned. so who let u think u can change the rules?
Actually doesnt that prove his point as well, if you measured greatness by counting rings Bill Russell would be the GOAT, but they dont because of the holes in his games/stats.


also if funny because duncan, and shaq name is in this and ppl only looking at kobes name, as if lebron is already ahead on shaq and duncan. which he isnt.

Whats doubly funny is how people are assuming Kobe finishes ahead of Duncan/Shaq.


lebron has been killing in these playoffs. i must admit. but ppl are ALWAYS so quick to knock kobe for 3 rings because he had shaq, but lebron has wade and bosh and they are all at their pinnacle of their career, so s it fair to say we can knock lebron as well??

get serious ppl. lebron couldnt take his cavs team to the promise land, and he fled. he fled to a super team. his legacy would have put him one day at the top if he would have stayed in clev, and won, because he wouldnt have eventually won some rings.

Meh

JordansBulls
05-27-2011, 02:18 PM
you been in a coma for the last month?

What do you mean?

Hawkeye15
05-27-2011, 02:21 PM
What do you mean?

responding to the pathetic attempt to discredit LeBron by saying its Wade's team.

If you mean, "Wade was there first", then I agree
If you mean, "No matter what LeBron does, and no matter if he outplays Wade, its still Wade's team", than you simply making up an excuse.

LeBron has been the catalyst for the Heat all playoffs basically. He is their MVP, and its an easy call.

PhillyFaninLA
05-27-2011, 02:32 PM
I'm sorry but no dude seriously? Your going by what ifs now which is stupid and no a 14-15 year old lebron wouldn't have won with shaq in his prime... He wouldn't have won the last title either he would've choked against Boston oh and Kobe>shaq maybe not prime wise but overall career forsure! And if Kobe wins 1 more ring he will be the greatest laker ever... And gtfo with Kobe being the 4 or 5 best laker ever at worst he's 3


I meant if you keep there talent but reverse there situations but you are quite the friendly individual aren't you and I did mention he could be 3rd in what you quoted. I'm not going to argue with someone that say no dude and gtfo to create the tone of there side of the debate there is no point in it really.

You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine.

Hawkeye15
05-27-2011, 02:38 PM
I meant if you keep there talent but reverse there situations but you are quite the friendly individual aren't you and I did mention he could be 3rd in what you quoted. I'm not going to argue with someone that say no dude and gtfo to create the tone of there side of the debate there is no point in it really.

You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine.

why do you still respond to ridiculous posts? Its much easier to post in the NBA forums if you avoid the immature posts all together. Even if they are aimed right at you.

lakerboy
05-27-2011, 02:42 PM
I don't think counting rings is the best way to determine legacy honestly. Too many team-dependent variables. Ranking the greats by ring totals only is a foolish way to go about it.

I don't think he needs more than 3 really. He's been a better player than Kobe in his prime already. It is hard to compare him to Shaq and Duncan, however. That's a bit more tough.

But I don't really know. It all depends on how he plays. Even if he continues to play amazing and only leaves with 2 rings, he might have a shot. Too much of a crapshoot now

LMAO. What then is the best way to determine success? PPG stats?

The best way to determine success if #WINNING.

Tony_Starks
05-27-2011, 02:43 PM
LOL at Kobe being ahead of Shaq. Kobe won maybe 1 title in his prime, Shaq led a 3peet in most dominating fashion.



Lol at "maybe 1." Delusional.

Hawkeye15
05-27-2011, 02:43 PM
LMAO. What then is the best way to determine success? PPG stats?

The best way to determine success if #WINNING.

for teams, you betcha!

lakerboy
05-27-2011, 02:46 PM
responding to the pathetic attempt to discredit LeBron by saying its Wade's team.

If you mean, "Wade was there first", then I agree
If you mean, "No matter what LeBron does, and no matter if he outplays Wade, its still Wade's team", than you simply making up an excuse.

LeBron has been the catalyst for the Heat all playoffs basically. He is their MVP, and its an easy call.

I am going discredit Lebron because joining Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh does not put you on the map as a top 10 player. Not even if you win 10 championships in a row. It's like creating a dream team to play in the NBA.

PhillyFaninLA
05-27-2011, 02:48 PM
why do you still respond to ridiculous posts? Its much easier to post in the NBA forums if you avoid the immature posts all together. Even if they are aimed right at you.


You know what your right. I appreciate you saying that...never thought about it until now.

lakerboy
05-27-2011, 02:48 PM
for teams, you betcha!

LMAO. So you are saying, winning is only an important measure of success to teams, and not to players?

LMAO.

I have a very bad feeling you only have this mentality because you want to discredit Kobe so badly. I mean come on, answer my question.

Why did Lebron join the Heat? Didn't he want to validate his career with championships?

Tony_Starks
05-27-2011, 03:13 PM
LMAO. So you are saying, winning is only an important measure of success to teams, and not to players?

LMAO.

I have a very bad feeling you only have this mentality because you want to discredit Kobe so badly. I mean come on, answer my question.

Why did Lebron join the Heat? Didn't he want to validate his career with championships?


I have seriously never seen a player get discredited as much as Kobe does. He's the only player that its like "ok he has 5 rings, but really only 1-1/2 of them are HIS!"... What?

But the real irony is that the same ones that say Kobe isn't one of the greatest alltime because he was playing with Shaq and Gasol are willing to give Lebron legend status and he's playing with 2 allstars!

Talk about double standard.

justinnum1
05-27-2011, 03:19 PM
If lebron gets 4 rings i think he can go down as top 3 of all time

Hawkeye15
05-27-2011, 03:21 PM
I am going discredit Lebron because joining Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh does not put you on the map as a top 10 player. Not even if you win 10 championships in a row. It's like creating a dream team to play in the NBA.

no, you are going to discredit LeBron because you have your mind made up that no matter what he does, you will hate him. Lets get real. You act is if his roster, 1-8 is even comparable to some of the rosters Kobe, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem, and some others played on. The Heat are top heavy, but then have nothing. All those other top players played with at least another all star, and fantastic role players, with fantastic coach's.

I am not concerned. The pathetic argument of him playing with Wade will die over time.

Hawkeye15
05-27-2011, 03:23 PM
LMAO. So you are saying, winning is only an important measure of success to teams, and not to players?

LMAO.

I have a very bad feeling you only have this mentality because you want to discredit Kobe so badly. I mean come on, answer my question.

Why did Lebron join the Heat? Didn't he want to validate his career with championships?

sure its important. But you act is if rings are the only way to measure a player, which is 100% inaccurate. They are indeed the accurate way to measure a team, which is why I responded in the manner that I did.

Understand?

And do you think LeBron cares about validating his career to anyone but himself? Does he care what you or I think? Or what the media thinks? Guys with his level of play and his competitiveness strive for rings for their own reasons and satisfaction.

Hawkeye15
05-27-2011, 03:24 PM
I have seriously never seen a player get discredited as much as Kobe does. He's the only player that its like "ok he has 5 rings, but really only 1-1/2 of them are HIS!"... What?

But the real irony is that the same ones that say Kobe isn't one of the greatest alltime because he was playing with Shaq and Gasol are willing to give Lebron legend status and he's playing with 2 allstars!

Talk about double standard.

no, he ONLY gets discredited by rational posters when complete homers attempt to use Kobe's rings as the one true way to measure him. How many times have I read, "well if he gets one more, he is the same as MJ". BS.

Bravo95
05-27-2011, 03:56 PM
I have seriously never seen a player get discredited as much as Kobe does. He's the only player that its like "ok he has 5 rings, but really only 1-1/2 of them are HIS!"... What?

But the real irony is that the same ones that say Kobe isn't one of the greatest alltime because he was playing with Shaq and Gasol are willing to give Lebron legend status and he's playing with 2 allstars!

Talk about double standard.
Yeah, it's kind of strange.

Crackadalic
05-27-2011, 04:04 PM
6 rings and thats the only argument I need PSD!!!!!!!!

Hawkeye15
05-27-2011, 04:22 PM
6 rings and thats the only argument I need PSD!!!!!!!!

that preview is kind of funny. It literally reminds me of dealing with PSD. That kid was killing him in a convo, and the only thing he had when his back was against the wall was a team accomplishment haha.

CHANGO
05-27-2011, 05:10 PM
@thechrispalmer
"Rings, based on so much luck, health and team, are a sometimes incorrect way to determine which player plays best." - @truehoop about 2 hours ago

Chronz
05-27-2011, 05:27 PM
Lol at "maybe 1." Delusional.
Yea I know its closer to zero but Kobe was pretty close to his prime so I gave him the benefit of one.

nickdymez
05-27-2011, 05:46 PM
I don't think counting rings is the best way to determine legacy honestly. Too many team-dependent variables. Ranking the greats by ring totals only is a foolish way to go about it.

I don't think he needs more than 3 really. He's been a better player than Kobe in his prime already. It is hard to compare him to Shaq and Duncan, however. That's a bit more tough.

But I don't really know. It all depends on how he plays. Even if he continues to play amazing and only leaves with 2 rings, he might have a shot. Too much of a crapshoot now

You hate Kobe so much it hurts you.. Kobe Bryants basketball IQ and skillset **** on Lebron, who relies purely on athleticism.

nickdymez
05-27-2011, 05:57 PM
for teams, you betcha!

I think your wrong on that one.. It takes 1-2 special players to make that team a champion. Like ive said before, the only true TEAM ive seen win a championship is the detroit pistons in 05'. I see so many people who want to give Lebron GOAT status without having him earn it. They put together a team in Cleveland that won 65 freakin games, its not like Lebron didnt have teams.. jesus.. Let the man earn this praise. Winning MVP's and putting up thousands of points doesn't mean anything because you play to win

210Don
05-27-2011, 05:59 PM
hes not surpassing any of them

Chronz
05-27-2011, 06:00 PM
You hate Kobe so much it hurts you.. Kobe Bryants basketball IQ and skillset **** on Lebron, who relies purely on athleticism.

You hate LeBron so much it hurts you.. LeBrons Athletic ability and overall dominance ***** on Kobe, who relies purely on skill.

nickdymez
05-27-2011, 06:01 PM
hes not surpassing any of them

Thats what im sayin.. Am I the only one on earth that didnt buy into Nikes Billion dollar investment and marketing scheme?

5ass
05-27-2011, 06:01 PM
You hate Kobe so much it hurts you.. Kobe Bryants basketball IQ and skillset **** on Lebron, who relies purely on athleticism.

Who the hell cares? At the end of the day, its how much impact u have on games that matters, not bbiq and skill set. Howard has low bbiq and doesnt have a lot of great moves, but hes still better than al jefferson.

210Don
05-27-2011, 06:03 PM
Thats what im sayin.. Am I the only one on earth that didnt buy into Nikes Billion dollar investment and marketing scheme?

hes way to overrated. i mean hes a great player but not better than top 10 guys

nickdymez
05-27-2011, 06:05 PM
Who the hell cares? At the end of the day, its how much impact u have on games that matters, not bbiq and skill set. Howard has low bbiq and doesnt have a lot of great moves, but hes still better than al jefferson.

I dont use that argument when i compare big men.

MTar786
05-27-2011, 06:06 PM
I don't know or about any of this because a lot more goes into legacy than just "X" amount of rings...

But I will say this... LeBron surely doesn't need 5 to pass Kobe. Kobe was the 2nd best player on the floor for 3 of his rings. Sure the Lakers couldn't have won without him, but it's an undeniable fact Shaq was the best player on that team. For that reason, LeBron doesn't need the same number as Kobe.

that is very dumb of you to use. i could understand u using that argument for a guy like dwight howard. but when u have wade and bosh on ur team u cant. sorry buddy. if lebron won 3 win cleveland it would be equivalent to kobes 5. lebron has to win 6 with miami ATLEAST to be considered on kobes level imo.
shaq was the main player. but without kobe he doesnt 3peat. without wade and bosh. lebron is fishing right now. and btw Lebron is not the clear cut best on the team. on some nights wade is BY FAR the better player. some nights lebron is the better player. IMO bosh was the reason for miamis 2nd win. see how it goes? wade was the reason miami won game 4 and wade and lebron togeter the reason they won game 5

DCB/LAL
05-27-2011, 06:19 PM
None...he has to be "the guy" and in Miami nobody knows who is "the guy". More than likely Wade.

Lake_Show2416
05-27-2011, 06:39 PM
at this time i chose 4-5, he has to be in the ballpark with Kobe, Shaq & Duncan

knicks4life33
05-27-2011, 08:16 PM
his legacy will be rememered bye leaving the cavs cause he couldnt win a championship and join the second best aplyer in the nba and another star so he can finally win a championship. I think he coulda won a championship with the cavs eventually . it wasnt like he was 33 and years were winding down. the cavs def would of made adjustments to get the players needed to win

LongWayFromHome
05-27-2011, 08:18 PM
Lebron can never be like anybody. He is on DWade's and Bosh's nuts. It's like Jordan calling Hakeen and Magic, "Hey, let's play together!"

Did you really compare The Dream to Chris Bosh and Magic to Wade?

Hawkeye15
05-27-2011, 08:23 PM
You hate Kobe so much it hurts you.. Kobe Bryants basketball IQ and skillset **** on Lebron, who relies purely on athleticism.

I honestly can't believe some of you use this. LeBron's basketball IQ is off the charts. His basketball skill is off the charts. Stop with the bs that he doesn't understand basketball and watch him play, jesus

Hawkeye15
05-27-2011, 08:24 PM
I think your wrong on that one.. It takes 1-2 special players to make that team a champion. Like ive said before, the only true TEAM ive seen win a championship is the detroit pistons in 05'. I see so many people who want to give Lebron GOAT status without having him earn it. They put together a team in Cleveland that won 65 freakin games, its not like Lebron didnt have teams.. jesus.. Let the man earn this praise. Winning MVP's and putting up thousands of points doesn't mean anything because you play to win

the post you decided to quote was a response to a poster that made a claim that rings were THE way to define a player. This is not true. They are indeed the way to define A team.

How did that Cleveland team do this year, with no LeBron?

TylerSL
05-27-2011, 08:27 PM
Rings is not a way to evaluate a player. However, if Lebron wins 4 rings as the leader of the Heat team (as he has proved he is), IMO he will be percieved as the #2 all time, behind MJ. If Lebron can win 5 or 6 rings, then I think he will percieved as good as or maybe even better than MJ in some people's eyes. IMO Lebron is already a top 25 player all time, add a ring, IMO it solidifies him top 20.

knickfan33
05-27-2011, 08:32 PM
Lebron surpasses Kobe,Duncan,and shaq in the all-time ranking list?

IMO he has to win 3 to pass shaq
4 to surpass Duncan
And 5 to pass Kobe
I still see Kobe winning 1 or 2 rings and if Dwight comes maybe 3!

In the end I think Lebron will win 2-3 rings I would say 3-4 but I just think Dallas will win it all this year they are just on top of their game... Dirk has been the best player in these playoffs and quite frankly Dallas shooting and barreas penetration will ultimately kill Miami and Dallas will finally have there revenge!

hes never going to win this arguement in most nba fans eyes because of his choice to leave for a superteam.... he'll always be remembered for that first, and his legacy will always be diminished by it.

Hawkeye15
05-27-2011, 08:34 PM
hes never going to win this arguement in most nba fans eyes because of his choice to leave for a superteam.... he'll always be remembered for that first, and his legacy will always be diminished by it.

you would be amazed at the short term memories of fans. Seriously.

RaidersLakers24
05-27-2011, 08:37 PM
You hate LeBron so much it hurts you.. LeBrons Athletic ability and overall dominance ***** on Kobe, who relies purely on skill.

Lmfao you just made yourself look stupid hahaha:clap:

ManRam
05-27-2011, 08:39 PM
This whole "superteam" thing is garbage.

Bird, Kareem, Magic, Russell, Hakeem etc. all played with one, or actually multiple other HOFers. Russell was on teams with 6 HOFers. LeBron has one with him.

The only time Oscar won he won it with Kareem.

Jordan won 3 of his rings with 2 other HOFers, and the other three with a top 5 player.

Kobe had Shaq, Shaq had Kobe. When Shaq left, Shaq had Wade, and Kobe had Pau. All will be HOFers.

Yet LeBron is the only one we're going to criticize playing with great talent? He's playing with 1 definite HOFer. Every single on of the guys you'd rank ahead of him did the same when they won.

RaidersLakers24
05-27-2011, 08:45 PM
It's funny how Lebronfans say the super team thing is crap but when they talk about Kobe they diminish him by saying his team is stacked lol talk about double standard btw the heat are wades team why do you think barkely skip and many other analyst say that!
Lebron is the better player but it's still wades team!

Hawkeye15
05-27-2011, 08:47 PM
It's funny how Lebronfans say the super team thing is crap but when they talk about Kobe they diminish him by saying his team is stacked lol talk about double standard btw the heat are wades team why do you think barkely skip and many other analyst say that!
Lebron is the better player but it's still wades team!

bs. We are simply playing devil's advocate to the thousands of posts here that Laker fans post.

By the way, the team belongs to the team leader, and it changes year by year. LeBron is alpha dog. Its hit team. Get over it

TylerSL
05-27-2011, 08:52 PM
bs. We are simply playing devil's advocate to the thousands of posts here that Laker fans post.

By the way, the team belongs to the team leader, and it changes year by year. LeBron is alpha dog. Its hit team. Get over it


this, Wade is still my favorite player, and I still even like Haslem more than Lebron. But Lebron has taken over this team, period. Lebron has been the MVP of the playoffs IMO because not only is he clutch on offense, but he is leading the defense as well. Miami's defense has been sooooooo damn suffocating as well. Lebron is the MVP of the playoffs, and the leader of the Heat. He is also proving everybody wrong who ever said he wasnt clutch, including myself.

ManRam
05-27-2011, 08:53 PM
It's funny how Lebronfans say the super team thing is crap but when they talk about Kobe they diminish him by saying his team is stacked lol talk about double standard btw the heat are wades team why do you think barkely skip and many other analyst say that!
Lebron is the better player but it's still wades team!

Name me any one year where Kobe won and had a lesser team than LeBron has ever had up until this point.

Do that, and then I'll call myself funny.

Hell, when he had Shaq, his team was still all around better than what LeBron has now.

TylerSL
05-27-2011, 08:56 PM
Name me any one year where Kobe won and had a lesser team than LeBron has ever had up until this point.

Do that, and then I'll call myself funny.

Hell, when he had Shaq, his team was still all around better than what LeBron has now.

again, this. When Kobe/Shaq were together the Lakers still had like a solid 8 man rotation.

NBAfan4life
05-27-2011, 08:57 PM
Why not? Individually, he's been better than Kobe in his prime. Now that he's on a team as good as Kobe had when he won 5, why can't he pass Kobe?

ManRam wouldn't you agree he needs at the bare minimum of two to ever be considered higher than Kobe on the all time list?

He has the team of his choosing with 2 other stars.

I guess we still have to see how both of their careers finish, but two is the number followed with a career with numbers like these for quite a while.

vickaz07
05-27-2011, 09:02 PM
So, Hakeem and Magic are on the same level as Bosh and Wade?

RaidersLakers24
05-27-2011, 09:03 PM
this, Wade is still my favorite player, and I still even like Haslem more than Lebron. But Lebron has taken over this team, period. Lebron has been the MVP of the playoffs IMO because not only is he clutch on offense, but he is leading the defense as well. Miami's defense has been sooooooo damn suffocating as well. Lebron is the MVP of the playoffs, and the leader of the Heat. He is also proving everybody wrong who ever said he wasnt clutch, including myself.

I never said he wasn't the better player but he's just not gonna be the team leader after just 1 season when wade has been there his whole career... Btw dirk is the MVP of these playoffs and he will be the MVP of the finals as well! Mavs in 6

ManRam
05-27-2011, 09:04 PM
ManRam wouldn't you agree he needs at the bare minimum of two to ever be considered higher than Kobe on the all time list?

He has the team of his choosing with 2 other stars.

I guess we still have to see how both of their careers finish, but two is the number followed with a career with numbers like these for quite a while.

No. Because I feel that indivdually, he's already been better than Kobe ever was.

Yes, he picked his team, but Kobe didn't have to (actually, he refused to go to Charlotte, so maybe he did). Kobe had Shaq. Kobe has had better teams than LeBron ever has had. He didn't have to pick his teams, because...well...he went to a huge market right off the bat and had great teammates right off the bat.

Expecting LeBron to have as much success as the greats in Cleveland is unreasonable. He never had a great team. The best player he ever played with was Z (who couldn't log 30 minutes in the playoffs) and Mo Williams (who is Mo Williams).

Yes, he picked his team. But the team he picked isn't really any better than the teams Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Bird, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, Magic, Oscar etc had when they won. So why hold him to a fault for that.

EDIT: More than two, yeah, I'll agree with that. But still...I think he's already proven to be a better individual player than Kobe, team accomplishments withstanding.

TylerSL
05-27-2011, 09:05 PM
I never said he wasn't the better player but he's just not gonna be the team leader after just 1 season when wade has been there his whole career... Btw dirk is the MVP of these playoffs and he will be the MVP of the finals as well! Mavs in 6

Im not gonna get into a Finals debate with you, thats your opinion, which is fine. Its also your opinion to Dirk being the MVP, but I say Lebron because his play on both offense and defense.

NBAfan4life
05-27-2011, 09:12 PM
No. Because I feel that indivdually, he's already been better than Kobe ever was.

Yes, he picked his team, but Kobe didn't have to (actually, he refused to go to Charlotte, so maybe he did). Kobe had Shaq. Kobe has had better teams than LeBron ever has had. He didn't have to pick his teams, because...well...he went to a huge market right off the bat and had great teammates right off the bat.

Expecting LeBron to have as much success as the greats in Cleveland is unreasonable. He never had a great team. The best player he ever played with was Z (who couldn't log 30 minutes in the playoffs) and Mo Williams (who is Mo Williams).

Yes, he picked his team. But the team he picked isn't really any better than the teams Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Bird, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, Magic, Oscar etc had when they won. So why hold him to a fault for that.

EDIT: More than two, yeah, I'll agree with that. But still...I think he's already proven to be a better individual player than Kobe, team accomplishments withstanding.

Do you think Lebron has already surpassed Kobe? I think longevity and winning count for something. This will be one of those arguments that doesn't go away, in my eyes he needs two rings at least to be better.

I'm a huge Kobe fan, objective at least I think. I just cant put him higher than Kobe without winning a little at least. Same reason most fans I think have TD higher the Malone.

Btw I like your switching KG and TD argument in the other thread. I agree.

ManRam
05-27-2011, 09:18 PM
Do you think Lebron has already surpassed Kobe? I think longevity and winning count for something. This will be one of those arguments that doesn't go away, in my eyes he needs two rings at least to be better.

I'm a huge Kobe fan, objective at least I think. I just cant put him higher than Kobe without winning a little at least. Same reason most fans I think have TD higher the Malone.

Btw I like your switching KG and TD argument in the other thread. I agree.

Legacy-wise. No, he hasn't even come close to passing Kobe. Not close at all. I do maintain that he's been better individually the last 3 season that Kobe ever was. That's a close call, but it's how I feel.

But Kobe without a doubt has the better legacy to this point. I just don't think LeBron needs 5 rings to match Kobe's legacy, because I do truly feel he's already been a better player in his prime than Kobe ever was. I understand why some would disagree, and that's fine. That's just my opinion.

Kobe is in my top 10 all-time, easily. I have him after Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Russell, and Haakem (in no order). So that's actually a firm grasp at 10. Right ahead of Oscar.

LeBron isn't close to my top 10, yet. I hate using rings to decide how good a player was (such a team-reliant metric), but if LeBron gets 3, I might push him ahead of Kobe.

TheHighLife
05-27-2011, 09:19 PM
LeBron will never be as good as Shaq or Kobe.

DCB/LAL
05-27-2011, 09:28 PM
bs. We are simply playing devil's advocate to the thousands of posts here that Laker fans post.

By the way, the team belongs to the team leader, and it changes year by year. LeBron is alpha dog. Its hit team. Get over it

Not true Kobe had and would outperformered Shaq in the playoffs BEFORE the finals(ESPECIALLY AGAINST THE SPURS) to help get them there but Shaq would outperform Kobe in the Finals and win Fianls MVP...and if im correct you call them Shaqs team regardless of what Kobe did before the Finals.


So with that said you must wait and see who wins Finals MVP to determine who's team it is.... I dont expect that from you though you've always had double standards when it comes to Kobe.

RaidersLakers24
05-27-2011, 09:29 PM
Legacy-wise. No, he hasn't even come close to passing Kobe. Not close at all. I do maintain that he's been better individually the last 3 season that Kobe ever was. That's a close call, but it's how I feel.

But Kobe without a doubt has the better legacy to this point. I just don't think LeBron needs 5 rings to match Kobe's legacy, because I do truly feel he's already been a better player in his prime than Kobe ever was. I understand why some would disagree, and that's fine. That's just my opinion.

Kobe is in my top 10 all-time, easily. I have him after Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Russell, and Haakem (in no order). So that's actually a firm grasp at 10. Right ahead of Oscar.

LeBron isn't close to my top 10, yet. I hate using rings to decide how good a player was (such a team-reliant metric), but if LeBron gets 3, I might push him ahead of Kobe.

Kobe> half of your guys! Wilt? Shaq?(career wise Kobe will be better so idk what your smoking) Duncan ehh he's passed him Russell average stats but a winner I'd still take Kobe over him and Hakeem? He won 2 rings and kobes accomplishments>> hakeems sorry dude! Kobe is in my top 5 I'm split between him and bird at 5 I'm biased so I'll put bird at 5 and Kobe 4

DCB/LAL
05-27-2011, 09:30 PM
This whole "superteam" thing is garbage.

Bird, Kareem, Magic, Russell, Hakeem etc. all played with one, or actually multiple other HOFers. Russell was on teams with 6 HOFers. LeBron has one with him.

The only time Oscar won he won it with Kareem.

Jordan won 3 of his rings with 2 other HOFers, and the other three with a top 5 player.

Kobe had Shaq, Shaq had Kobe. When Shaq left, Shaq had Wade, and Kobe had Pau. All will be HOFers.

Yet LeBron is the only one we're going to criticize playing with great talent? He's playing with 1 definite HOFer. Every single on of the guys you'd rank ahead of him did the same when they won.

Ummm FYI...Bosh will be a HOF'er someday.

DCB/LAL
05-27-2011, 09:34 PM
Name me any one year where Kobe won and had a lesser team than LeBron has ever had up until this point.

Do that, and then I'll call myself funny.

Hell, when he had Shaq, his team was still all around better than what LeBron has now.

Kobe won the championship with a 1 all-star and a bunch of good players...Lebron has 1 GREAT player 1 All-star and some good(Haslem) to solid players(Miller, Jones etc..)


Not comparable Lebron has WAY more help than any other superstar in the league since Shaq had Kobe and Kobe had Shaq.

TylerSL
05-27-2011, 09:44 PM
Kobe won the championship with a 1 all-star and a bunch of good players...Lebron has 1 GREAT player 1 All-star and some good(Haslem) to solid players(Miller, Jones etc..)


Not comparable Lebron has WAY more help than any other superstar in the league since Shaq had Kobe and Kobe had Shaq.


Manu/Duncan/Parker have played for the Spurs since Shaq/Kobe and has won 2 titles since Shaq/Kobe broke up. In 2005 the Spurs also had a good cast like Bruce Bowen, Brent Barry, Robert Horry, and Devin Brown. In 2007, the Spurs still had a good cast including Bruce Bowen, Brent Barry, Fabricio Oberto, Michael Finley, and Robert Horry. They have also had one of the greatest coaches of all time in Greg Popovich. Those Spurs team seem to have as much or more help than the Heat have had.

Bravo95
05-27-2011, 09:46 PM
Shaq is basically finished so his place likely won't change for me. Bryant and Duncan still have a few seasons left as key players on their teams, so they can still move up. But TD is the lowest of those three on my Top 10 and he has 4 rings, so I guess it starts there (unless James can guide his team to a 73-9 record or something).

DCB/LAL
05-27-2011, 09:55 PM
Manu/Duncan/Parker have played for the Spurs since Shaq/Kobe and has won 2 titles since Shaq/Kobe broke up. In 2005 the Spurs also had a good cast like Bruce Bowen, Brent Barry, Robert Horry, and Devin Brown. In 2007, the Spurs still had a good cast including Bruce Bowen, Brent Barry, Fabricio Oberto, Michael Finley, and Robert Horry. They have also had one of the greatest coaches of all time in Greg Popovich. Those Spurs team seem to have as much or more help than the Heat have had.

Not even Close... first off Duncan/Manu/Parker<Lebron/Wade/Bosh thats a laughable comparison in itself the only thing SA would have the edge in would be in having the Better player in Duncan but Manu nor Parker are no where in the league of Wade....maybe closer to Bosh.

Bowen was a defensive player...Haslem is a defensive player.
Finley was pretty much finished after he left the Mavs but he would be similar to what Bibby is for the Heat
Brent Barry/Robert Horry were 3 point shooters...the Heat have Miller and Jones.
Oberto and Joel Anthony are pretty much the same...ACTUALLY id take Anthony because he is a better Defensive player he already has done more for Miami than Oberto did for the Spurs and the Finals haven't even been played yet. Anthony already has 31 Blocks and 7 steals.


So YES Lebron had WAY MORE halp than Duncan had on those Spurs teams its really not even comparable if you look at it closely.

Lakerhead4ever
05-27-2011, 10:21 PM
at the end of the day we are all bias, we are all fans of a team and has a favorite player.

so all this is opinions, and none of it is fact.

so whats the point to argue and debate?

i give up

Hawkeye15
05-27-2011, 10:25 PM
Not true Kobe had and would outperformered Shaq in the playoffs BEFORE the finals(ESPECIALLY AGAINST THE SPURS) to help get them there but Shaq would outperform Kobe in the Finals and win Fianls MVP...and if im correct you call them Shaqs team regardless of what Kobe did before the Finals.


So with that said you must wait and see who wins Finals MVP to determine who's team it is.... I dont expect that from you though you've always had double standards when it comes to Kobe.

paragraph 1- there is no way on earth you have a chance of proving this.

paragraph 2- I agree with part 1, shake my head at part 2

mdm692
05-27-2011, 10:35 PM
The only thing lebron has proven is that he is the most dominant player of our era but has yet to prove himself in the way kobe and mj did over the years championships do matter because it is in those clutch situations where you really see the kind of player he is. . .wade already proved his its still his team

nimazahir
05-27-2011, 10:41 PM
Lebron surpasses Kobe,Duncan,and shaq in the all-time ranking list?

IMO he has to win 3 to pass shaq
4 to surpass Duncan
And 5 to pass Kobe
I still see Kobe winning 1 or 2 rings and if Dwight comes maybe 3!

In the end I think Lebron will win 2-3 rings I would say 3-4 but I just think Dallas will win it all this year they are just on top of their game... Dirk has been the best player in these playoffs and quite frankly Dallas shooting and barreas penetration will ultimately kill Miami and Dallas will finally have there revenge!
Ure a lakers fan, u cant compare lebron to kobe or even shaq b/c u are biast.

nimazahir
05-27-2011, 10:42 PM
How does La win 1-3 more rings when there are the mavs, okc, and grizz in the west. And the east has the heat, bulls and celtics.

mdm692
05-27-2011, 10:44 PM
No knicks mention ^^^

MR.TRIPDUB
05-27-2011, 10:56 PM
Yea I know its closer to zero but Kobe was pretty close to his prime so I gave him the benefit of one.

What does this mean? The 5 rings kobe won, he never was on his prime? Is this a general consensus or is a stupid post that hawkeye dude was talking about to ignore that no one wants to touch it.

ne3xchamps
05-27-2011, 11:13 PM
It is not that easy really. You can't just say "X" number will guarantee Lebron is better than Duncan, Kobe & Shaq. This conversation is so far off, why do people insist to comparing players careers before one player is nowhere close to finishing their own.

Because this is what happens when newbies start threads. :laugh2:

RaidersLakers24
05-27-2011, 11:23 PM
How does La win 1-3 more rings when there are the mavs, okc, and grizz in the west. And the east has the heat, bulls and celtics.

Lakers still have the most talent they just didn't have the fire to win it all this past year... Kobe will be healthy once again after he was dealing with injuries this past year gasol will not have personal problems that will affect him Bynum will be healthy lamar will be Lamar we will have a new starting pg an we won't run the triangle anymore imo the players we had this year didn't execute it well ex. Ron barnes Blake etc. We will have a better offense aka more pick and roll our defense will be one of the best mike brown is a great defensive coach and don't forget we are the favorites to land Dwight Howard... So anything can happen but we will be a more athletic team next year which will help us alot!

Raph12
05-28-2011, 12:50 AM
4-5... People forget just how dominant a guy like Shaq was.

Kashmir13579
05-28-2011, 01:33 AM
Thats a lie. everybody and their momma determine legacy by rings, in that case bill russel wouldnt ever be mentioned. so who let u think u can change the rules?

also if funny because duncan, and shaq name is in this and ppl only looking at kobes name, as if lebron is already ahead on shaq and duncan. which he isnt.

lebron has been killing in these playoffs. i must admit. but ppl are ALWAYS so quick to knock kobe for 3 rings because he had shaq, but lebron has wade and bosh and they are all at their pinnacle of their career, so s it fair to say we can knock lebron as well??

get serious ppl. lebron couldnt take his cavs team to the promise land, and he fled. he fled to a super team. his legacy would have put him one day at the top if he would have stayed in clev, and won, because he wouldnt have eventually won some rings.

When is the last time the Lakers have won rings without being a "super team"?

Chronz
05-28-2011, 02:19 AM
What does this mean? The 5 rings kobe won, he never was on his prime? Is this a general consensus or is a stupid post that hawkeye dude was talking about to ignore that no one wants to touch it.
I said he never led a team to a title at the top of his game or something to that nature. NBA terminology is confusing sometimes but just to clarify, the post is to mean he was not at the top of his game when he won his title last year, anyone who wants to pretend like Kobe didnt look seriously vulnerable and noticeably less athletic is kidding themselves. When he won in his youth he was barely scratching the surface of his potential, his 01 or 02 run was epic so you could argue that was at the top of his game but again he wasnt the primary force behind those teams. So that leaves him with 2009 as the sole year where he was his teams best player where you could argue he was near or around the top of his game.

I realize this is picking nits because Kobe was so consistently great throughout his career that his prime was basically never ending but he did have a few peak years, sadly they were spent on flawed teams or interrupted by off court issues. This isnt me saying Kobe couldnt do it, its obvious that if Kobe could win as a lesser version of himself, the superior athlete would be able to as well. But when your comparing him to Shaq, the fact that Shaq won 3 straight at the apex of his career is a monumental accomplishment Kobe will never touch.



Lmfao you just made yourself look stupid hahaha:clap:
LMFAO you just made yourself look stupid hahaha clap

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-28-2011, 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by Chronz
I said he never led a team to a title at the top of his game or something to that nature. NBA terminology is confusing sometimes but just to clarify, the post is to mean he was not at the top of his game when he won his title last year, anyone who wants to pretend like Kobe didnt look seriously vulnerable and noticeably less athletic is kidding themselves. When he won in his youth he was barely scratching the surface of his potential, his 01 or 02 run was epic so you could argue that was at the top of his game but again he wasnt the primary force behind those teams. So that leaves him with 2009 as the sole year where he was his teams best player where you could argue he was near or around the top of his game.

I realize this is picking nits because Kobe was so consistently great throughout his career that his prime was basically never ending but he did have a few peak years, sadly they were spent on flawed teams or interrupted by off court issues. This isnt me saying Kobe couldnt do it, its obvious that if Kobe could win as a lesser version of himself, the superior athlete would be able to as well. But when your comparing him to Shaq, the fact that Shaq won 3 straight at the apex of his career is a monumental accomplishment Kobe will never touchWould you say the same for Lebron if he wins a ring this year? Statistically, this was his 5th worse season of his career. Far below his production from the past two years. This would be his 3rd best post season performance as well. So I think it would be safe to say Lebron did not win a ring in his "prime" as well correct?

His overall numbers and efficiency fell completely off. 4th worst PER, He scored the second lowest amount of points in his career, second best rebounding year, 4th best passing year, second worst year for steals, second worst year for blocks, and the most turnovers of his career.

In the playoffs he has had 3rd best PER, his 4th best scoring efficiency, third best rebounding%, worst year for assist%, second lowest steals%, second best blocks%, and second best turnover ratio.

I guess Lebron cant touch Shaq as far as winning at his apex either. If Lebron has another year like this next year, I think its safe to say he has passed his statistical prime. Usually, NBA players start to drop off at the age of 27. Lebron is 26. It seems a little early but not if you account for his dependance on his athleticism. Then is starts to make sense. Too bad he spent his prime years wasted on those horrible Cavs teams

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-28-2011, 08:55 PM
You hate LeBron so much it hurts you.. LeBrons Athletic ability and overall dominance ***** on Kobe, who relies purely on skill.

:confused::confused::confused: Are you saying Kobe was not athletic? He was one of the best athletes the league has ever seen. Or are you talking about right now? Which would be a mute point since nobody puts Kobe as the best in the league anymore.

Chronz
05-28-2011, 10:31 PM
:confused::confused::confused: Are you saying Kobe was not athletic? He was one of the best athletes the league has ever seen. Or are you talking about right now? Which would be a mute point since nobody puts Kobe as the best in the league anymore.

I'm saying the same thing that guy said . Ask him if hes saying bron has zero skill.

Becks2307
05-28-2011, 10:57 PM
Would you say the same for Lebron if he wins a ring this year? Statistically, this was his 5th worse season of his career. Far below his production from the past two years. This would be his 3rd best post season performance as well. So I think it would be safe to say Lebron did not win a ring in his "prime" as well correct?

His overall numbers and efficiency fell completely off. 4th worst PER, He scored the second lowest amount of points in his career, second best rebounding year, 4th best passing year, second worst year for steals, second worst year for blocks, and the most turnovers of his career.

In the playoffs he has had 3rd best PER, his 4th best scoring efficiency, third best rebounding%, worst year for assist%, second lowest steals%, second best blocks%, and second best turnover ratio.

I guess Lebron cant touch Shaq as far as winning at his apex either. If Lebron has another year like this next year, I think its safe to say he has passed his statistical prime. Usually, NBA players start to drop off at the age of 27. Lebron is 26. It seems a little early but not if you account for his dependance on his athleticism. Then is starts to make sense. Too bad he spent his prime years wasted on those horrible Cavs teams


are u really making this argument ignoring the fact that he has to share the ball alot more now. think about this. he is playing the 2nd least minutes of his career AND he shot his highest shot percentage ever this year. Lebron could average 35 ppg if he wanted imo.

and i dont even like lebron

SportsAndrew25
05-28-2011, 11:02 PM
2-3 for me.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-28-2011, 11:10 PM
are u really making this argument ignoring the fact that he has to share the ball alot more now. think about this. he is playing the 2nd least minutes of his career AND he shot his highest shot percentage ever this year. Lebron could average 35 ppg if he wanted imo.

and i dont even like lebron

I took that into consideration. That is why I listed both per game numbers and advanced numbers. Those numbers take into consideration the amount of minutes he played, as well as the pace at which his teams have played in. Because he is finally playing with great talent, shouldnt that make the game easier on him? Shouldnt he have been able to be more efficient without all the attention on him? Shouldnt something have risen? If he is not the only scorer anymore, shouldnt his assist % gone up? Shouldnt his turnovers have gone down without all eyes on him? Im not going to say weather I believe that line of thinking or not, but that is the general consensus.

But my point remains the same, his per game averages and his advanced statistics all declined. But its not abnormal. Many of the greats had their best season statistically at 25, and then declined from then on. I would say on average most player decline numbers wise after 27, but 25 is not uncommon

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-28-2011, 11:14 PM
I'm saying the same thing that guy said . Ask him if hes saying bron has zero skill.

Chronz you're better than that. You know its too easy to pick on guys who make absured statements. Why stoop down to someones level? Everyone knows Lebron is extremely skilled. Anyone who would say otherwise is a little kid, (which there are a lot of here), a Lebron hater, or someone who just wants to get under peoples skin.

BigCityofDreams
05-28-2011, 11:22 PM
Thats a lie. everybody and their momma determine legacy by rings, in that case bill russel wouldnt ever be mentioned. so who let u think u can change the rules?

also if funny because duncan, and shaq name is in this and ppl only looking at kobes name, as if lebron is already ahead on shaq and duncan. which he isnt.

lebron has been killing in these playoffs. i must admit. but ppl are ALWAYS so quick to knock kobe for 3 rings because he had shaq, but lebron has wade and bosh and they are all at their pinnacle of their career, so s it fair to say we can knock lebron as well??

get serious ppl. lebron couldnt take his cavs team to the promise land, and he fled. he fled to a super team. his legacy would have put him one day at the top if he would have stayed in clev, and won, because he wouldnt have eventually won some rings.

Kobe is the only guy in sports who has his first championships questioned. Think about that for a second. I've heard ppl say his rings don't count because he wasn't the man. :facepalm:. So I guess Kobe was a role player on those teams. WTF

BigCityofDreams
05-28-2011, 11:31 PM
I have seriously never seen a player get discredited as much as Kobe does. He's the only player that its like "ok he has 5 rings, but really only 1-1/2 of them are HIS!"... What?

But the real irony is that the same ones that say Kobe isn't one of the greatest alltime because he was playing with Shaq and Gasol are willing to give Lebron legend status and he's playing with 2 allstars!

Talk about double standard.

lol you know you're doing something right when the haters have to split up your rings. I can't believe ppl still do that. I thought after the regular season MVP, 2 MVP finals, and back to back rings ppl would calm down but it was the opposite. Have you ever heard someone say well Oscar only won his ring with Kareem or West only won his ring with Wilt.

hyb152
05-28-2011, 11:33 PM
Thats a lie. everybody and their momma determine legacy by rings, in that case bill russel wouldnt ever be mentioned. so who let u think u can change the rules?

also if funny because duncan, and shaq name is in this and ppl only looking at kobes name, as if lebron is already ahead on shaq and duncan. which he isnt.

lebron has been killing in these playoffs. i must admit. but ppl are ALWAYS so quick to knock kobe for 3 rings because he had shaq, but lebron has wade and bosh and they are all at their pinnacle of their career, so s it fair to say we can knock lebron as well??

get serious ppl. lebron couldnt take his cavs team to the promise land, and he fled. he fled to a super team. his legacy would have put him one day at the top if he would have stayed in clev, and won, because he wouldnt have eventually won some rings.

There are so many stupid stupid arguments in your post I don't know where to begin. First off, judging by rings the way you're doing it really is wrong. That means Fisher is better than Shaq, Russell better than Jordan, Horry better than kobe, Odom better than Malone, etc.

Second, people knock off Kobe for having Shaq because SHAQ WAS BATMAN and KOBE WAS ROBIN. U can't compare Lebron having wade like that because it's obvious Lebron is batman and will never be robin no matter how many championships he wins. Every ring Lebron wins will be because he lead the team. Kobe had 3 rings because Shaq lead them.

Third, you can't be serious about lebrons cavs team. U must be one of the few narrow minded kobe homer retards blinded with stupidity that still thinks Lebron could have won a title with that trash bin team. It's a miracle he even made it past the 2nd round with that team. Seriously get off that. Most people have stopped using that "lebron couldn't win a ring in Cleveland" excuse because they all realize how bad that team was.

Laker u have a reputation for being one of the dumbest posters. I've seen plenty of other people lash out on u for being flat out stupid. Read my post again and you'll see what I'm saying is pretty much true. Yeah it's my opinion, but it's still more on point than your pathetic jokes you call argumenta. Just stop with this incompetence.

Chronz
05-29-2011, 12:42 AM
Chronz you're better than that. You know its too easy to pick on guys who make absured statements. Why stoop down to someones level? Everyone knows Lebron is extremely skilled. Anyone who would say otherwise is a little kid, (which there are a lot of here), a Lebron hater, or someone who just wants to get under peoples skin.
Contrary to popular belief I don't consider anyone to be beneath me but I love the attention that comes with people thinking your a pompous ahole. Ill stoop and rise to any level. When I'm on my phone I trend to stoop low because the arguments are easier. Its why I've ignored your other post, ill get to that in time.

hugepatsfan
05-29-2011, 12:54 AM
I hate how winning a ring has become like a right of passage. I hate the idea that Lebron's ranking as a player is drastically different based on the short sample size of the upcoming series.

JordanFanatic
05-29-2011, 01:27 AM
If you shut down Dallas' 3pt shooting they will be doomed, Dirk can't score ALL of their points, thats just my opinion, btw Heat in 5.

JordanFanatic
05-29-2011, 01:28 AM
BTW, Lebron will surpass Kobe...

Chronz
05-29-2011, 01:34 AM
I hate how winning a ring has become like a right of passage. I hate the idea that Lebron's ranking as a player is drastically different based on the short sample size of the upcoming series.

Get ready for the explosion of exposure no matter the outcome, about how DIFFERENT Bron has become because of this series.

pedrofan45
05-29-2011, 02:13 PM
haha laker fans crack me up

the reason fans discredit kobe's 3 rings is because he was just a little immature kid who had one of the most dominant players ever in shaq that was in his prime.. take off Shaq and there is absolutely not a chance in he** kobe gets close to an NBA championship.. he was a big part of those teams no doubt, but wasn't the biggest reason why they won the finals.. he definitely was for his last 2 rings though

when it comes to comparing how great players are by the rings.. the players have to be "the man" on the team.. Shaq was "the man" on the Lakers.. he was maybe the most dominant center in the history nba, while Kobe was an immature kid who had tons of ability but was clearly second fiddle to Shaq

Cano4prez
05-29-2011, 02:21 PM
1 or 2 rings

Current LeBron > Prime Kobe
Peak LeBron > Peak Kobe

Tony_Starks
05-29-2011, 02:21 PM
Im seriously starting to think it was only Laker fans that watched the Lakers during the Kobe/Shaq era. I guess we are the only ones that saw the reason Shaq was so dominant is because the two man game between him and Kobe was ridiculous. Or that Kobe was the closer. Or that many a playoff game Shaq was on the bench during crunch time for fear of hack-a-Shaq and it was Kobes team. Or that Kobe was easily the best defender on the team defending the other teams best scorer and still putting up numbers. Or that at least one of those finals MVPs should've went to Kobe. Or that Kobe carried the team for months at a time every year while Shaq was getting in shape in his words "on company time....."

But anyway, I guess we're the only ones that witnessed that. Everyone else apparently just saw Shaq all by his lonesome.......

pedrofan45
05-29-2011, 02:24 PM
Im seriously starting to think it was only Laker fans that watched the Lakers during the Kobe/Shaq era. I guess we are the only ones that saw the reason Shaq was so dominant is because the two man game between him and Kobe was ridiculous. Or that Kobe was the closer. Or that many a playoff game Shaq was on the bench during crunch time for fear of hack-a-Shaq and it was Kobes team. Or that Kobe was easily the best defender on the team. Or that at least one of those finals MVPs should've went to Kobe. Or that Kobe carried the team for months at a time every year while Shaq was getting in shape in his words "on company time....."

But anyway, I guess we're the only ones that witnessed that. Everyone else apparently just saw Shaq all by his lonesome.......

do you understand that kobe MISSED the playoffs in his PRIME?? (2004-2005)

Chi~TwnHawksFan
05-29-2011, 02:33 PM
Lebron surpasses Kobe,Duncan,and shaq in the all-time ranking list?

IMO he has to win 3 to pass shaq4 to surpass Duncan
And 5 to pass Kobe
I still see Kobe winning 1 or 2 rings and if Dwight comes maybe 3!

In the end I think Lebron will win 2-3 rings I would say 3-4 but I just think Dallas will win it all this year they are just on top of their game... Dirk has been the best player in these playoffs and quite frankly Dallas shooting and barreas penetration will ultimately kill Miami and Dallas will finally have there revenge!

shaq has 4 rings...

packers12to88
05-29-2011, 02:37 PM
LeBron is better than kobe. and who ever says its wades team is ****ing idiot and just a pure lebron hater. If lebron had the teams kobe has had, he would have won many rings by now. look when kobe had a bad team they couldnt even get out of the first round. Lebron had an equally bad team and took them to the finals at the age of 22! LeBron > Kobe

Hawkeye15
05-29-2011, 02:38 PM
Im seriously starting to think it was only Laker fans that watched the Lakers during the Kobe/Shaq era. I guess we are the only ones that saw the reason Shaq was so dominant is because the two man game between him and Kobe was ridiculous. Or that Kobe was the closer. Or that many a playoff game Shaq was on the bench during crunch time for fear of hack-a-Shaq and it was Kobes team. Or that Kobe was easily the best defender on the team defending the other teams best scorer and still putting up numbers. Or that at least one of those finals MVPs should've went to Kobe. Or that Kobe carried the team for months at a time every year while Shaq was getting in shape in his words "on company time....."

But anyway, I guess we're the only ones that witnessed that. Everyone else apparently just saw Shaq all by his lonesome.......


No, Shaq entered his peak in those years. It amazes me that fans in general still don't realize the effect Shaq had on defenses in his peak. They would literally do any and everything to try and load up on him and stop deep catches. Shaq was the alpha dog on that team in all 3 championships, and that really can't be debated. The stats don't show the effect Shaq had on the other team. Opposing coaches loaded his side of the floor at all times, and collapsed with abandon when the ball hit the air headed at him, allowing his wing to overachieve.

Shaq was option 1. Kobe was option 2. Simple.

Hawkeye15
05-29-2011, 02:39 PM
do you understand that kobe MISSED the playoffs in his PRIME?? (2004-2005)

you mean his PEAK years. Kobe's prime has been ridiculously long, which is why I give him credit as a top 10 all time player.

Hawkeye15
05-29-2011, 02:41 PM
here is a simple effect of Shaq for the casual fan to understand. Back in those days, when he was unstoppable, the Lakers entered the penalty much faster in every quarter than any other team. This means that bump foul out top with 6 minutes to go in the 1st sent Kobe to the line. This is literally one example.

Cause and effect. It happens

naps
05-29-2011, 02:43 PM
Lebron surpasses Kobe,Duncan,and shaq in the all-time ranking list?

IMO he has to win 3 to pass shaq
4 to surpass Duncan
And 5 to pass Kobe
I still see Kobe winning 1 or 2 rings and if Dwight comes maybe 3!

In the end I think Lebron will win 2-3 rings I would say 3-4 but I just think Dallas will win it all this year they are just on top of their game... Dirk has been the best player in these playoffs and quite frankly Dallas shooting and barreas penetration will ultimately kill Miami and Dallas will finally have there revenge!

Are you saying Kobe is higher than Shaq and Duncan?:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
And Duncan is higher than Shaq?

Number of of rings doesn't make your rank. It's just HOW you got them.

pedrofan45
05-29-2011, 03:02 PM
you mean his PEAK years. Kobe's prime has been ridiculously long, which is why I give him credit as a top 10 all time player.

agree with everything you just said

rickshaw
05-29-2011, 03:18 PM
Not catching Kobe in rings, and also not passing Kobe on the list.

Shouldn't even be in the same breath as Shaq, Shaq was the most dominant big to ever do it.


But he will get a couple of rings out of the deal. I just hope the same ones that hate on Kobe because he won with Shaq use that same logic and hold it against Lebron that he has Wade and Bosh......

so first you say lebron shouldnt even be in the same breath as shaq because he was so dominant as a knock at lebron.

but then you compare wade and bosh to shaq... which is it

jim51990
05-29-2011, 03:26 PM
One already puts him in the debate because I feel he has an will have a better career then all of them and I say 3 and he can be argued against mj

blastmasta26
05-29-2011, 04:03 PM
Number of of rings doesn't make your rank. It's just HOW you got them.

This basically encapsulates everything a rational poster can say on this subject.

RaidersLakers24
05-29-2011, 04:32 PM
do you understand that kobe MISSED the playoffs in his PRIME?? (2004-2005)

Do you understand he was injured and didn't play for like 20 games? Wow I can clearly tell you barely started watching basketball

RaidersLakers24
05-29-2011, 04:39 PM
Wow this thread is so stupid I should have never created it... People saying he needs 1-2 rings to surpass all of them lol kids in psd like the heat bandwagoners and Lebron nut Huggers probably started watching basketball last year... To say he wins 3 rings and will be right up there with jordan is absurd... Btw Lebron isn't even near kobes status in NBA history and the more he keeps winning the less likely the chances are he surpasses him!

Shaq and Timmy are about done so he can still surpass them but I don't think he will ever be considered better than Kobe when its all said and done but I guess only time will tell!

Hawkeye15
05-29-2011, 04:53 PM
Wow this thread is so stupid I should have never created it... People saying he needs 1-2 rings to surpass all of them lol kids in psd like the heat bandwagoners and Lebron nut Huggers probably started watching basketball last year... To say he wins 3 rings and will be right up there with jordan is absurd... Btw Lebron isn't even near kobes status in NBA history and the more he keeps winning the less likely the chances are he surpasses him!

Shaq and Timmy are about done so he can still surpass them but I don't think he will ever be considered better than Kobe when its all said and done but I guess only time will tell!

LeBron doesn't have as good of a career as Kobe yet. Nobody should be denying this. But he could end up with a better career, not sure how you don't see that dude. And honestly, the question was stupid to begin with. There is no set amount of rings. Obviously Bron needs to win a few to be in the conversation for a better CAREER, even if Bron was the better player when all is said and done.

Tony_Starks
05-29-2011, 08:22 PM
No, Shaq entered his peak in those years. It amazes me that fans in general still don't realize the effect Shaq had on defenses in his peak. They would literally do any and everything to try and load up on him and stop deep catches. Shaq was the alpha dog on that team in all 3 championships, and that really can't be debated. The stats don't show the effect Shaq had on the other team. Opposing coaches loaded his side of the floor at all times, and collapsed with abandon when the ball hit the air headed at him, allowing his wing to overachieve.

Shaq was option 1. Kobe was option 2. Simple.


No argument about Shaqs dominance but my thing is go back and see how many games he missed throughout those years on a average. Kobe did a lot of the work while Shaq goofed off. Now of course he did his thing in the playoffs but realisticly Shaq has never won big without the benefit of one of the best sg's in the league. Shaq was the man but people act like him and Kobe didn't alternate dominating games when they were together. Including in the playoffs. Kobe is just as responsible for those rings as Shaq is, plain and simple....

But back to topic Im of the opinion Lebron has a loooooooooooong way to go before you can seriously put him in the conversation with any of those guys. Particularly Kobe who has literally accomplished everything a player can accomplish on a individual, team, historical, and international level.

Hawkeye15
05-29-2011, 08:27 PM
No argument about Shaqs dominance but my thing is go back and see how many games he missed throughout those years on a average. Kobe did a lot of the work while Shaq goofed off. Now of course he did his thing in the playoffs but realisticly Shaq has never won big without the benefit of one of the best sg's in the league. Shaq was the man but people act like him and Kobe didn't alternate dominating games when they were together. Including in the playoffs. Kobe is just as responsible for those rings as Shaq is, plain and simple....

well, you are reaching now by pointing out Shaq missing some games here and there in the regular season. He had the luxury of having a roster that could support him gone for short periods of time in the regular season. Had it been Kobe who missed the games and not Shaq, no difference.

Nobody is acting like Kobe wasn't a completely integral part of those rings. No way the Lakers win them without him, or at least another dominant slashing wing player, and only a handful of players would have been able to replace Kobe on those 3 teams.

Shaq is more responsible for those rings, and its due to not only the statistical contributions, but the fact that his players were allowed greater freedom than any other wing player in the NBA in a landslide.

MalZee24
05-29-2011, 08:38 PM
Wow this thread is so stupid I should have never created it... People saying he needs 1-2 rings to surpass all of them lol kids in psd like the heat bandwagoners and Lebron nut Huggers probably started watching basketball last year... To say he wins 3 rings and will be right up there with jordan is absurd... Btw Lebron isn't even near kobes status in NBA history and the more he keeps winning the less likely the chances are he surpasses him!

Shaq and Timmy are about done so he can still surpass them but I don't think he will ever be considered better than Kobe when its all said and done but I guess only time will tell!

so basically u just described yourself here. The only difference is instead of heat Lebron nut huggers, it should say RaidersLakers24. Seriously youre doing the same thing for kobe what others are doing for Lebron except the people about Lebron are right and you're not. Seriously you sound like a Kobe "nut hugger" that's upset bitter and confused that Lebron is showing the complete package and guys like pippen are saying how great is. So many people are realizing that he's better than kobe and these playoffs are really showing it. You're desperately trying to find anyway u can to keep
Kobe above Lebron but u know deep down that Lebron is entering a status that will eventually surpass Bryant. Rings don't matter that much. Lebron only needs like 2-3 rings to go along with all of his other accomplishments. It really is about how u get the rings more than how many. If it's by rings the way you're saying, Sam jones is better than MJ and dj mbenga is better than Elgin Baylor. Oh yeah, Luke Walton is better than John Stockton too.

buch88
05-29-2011, 08:46 PM
so basically u just described yourself here. The only difference is instead of heat Lebron nut huggers, it should say RaidersLakers24. Seriously youre doing the same thing for kobe what others are doing for Lebron except the people about Lebron are right and you're not. Seriously you sound like a Kobe "nut hugger" that's upset bitter and confused that Lebron is showing the complete package and guys like pippen are saying how great is. So many people are realizing that he's better than kobe and these playoffs are really showing it. You're desperately trying to find anyway u can to keep
Kobe above Lebron but u know deep down that Lebron is entering a status that will eventually surpass Bryant. Rings don't matter that much. Lebron only needs like 2-3 rings to go along with all of his other accomplishments. It really is about how u get the rings more than how many. If it's by rings the way you're saying, Sam jones is better than MJ and dj mbenga is better than Elgin Baylor. Oh yeah, Luke Walton is better than John Stockton too.

:laugh: hahaha the first sentence was hilarious and so true! As for the rest of the post, I agree 100%.

Yes raiderslakers, u shouldn't have made this thread. Because u look like a complete moron. The thing that really makes me laugh is u actually think you're making good arguments but they're absolute jokes! :laugh:

Chronz
05-29-2011, 08:51 PM
Do you understand he was injured and didn't play for like 20 games? Wow I can clearly tell you barely started watching basketball
LOL Your such a homer, Kobe going down isn't when the lakers fell off. In fact they had a decent record without him. It wasnt until Odom got hurt that the team fell off. Not that it would have mattered had he stayed healthy, the lakers had an unimpressive efficiency rank despite one of the easiest schedules at the time. Kobe went like on a stretch of 20+ games where he won like twice that year.

Tony_Starks
05-29-2011, 09:06 PM
People do realize we are sitting here comparing a guy at his peak vs guys that are on their way out of the league like its totally fair right?

The comparison game is not really a reasonable deal. A fair comparison is guys at the same point in their career like say Jordan and Dominique Wilkins for example. But when you compare Jordan when he was on his way up vs Magic on his way out thats not really fair. Magic had his best years when Jordan was still on the way up...

Same with Lebron vs the greats. Their body of work is pretty much complete, except for maybe adding a couple more rings to the hall of fame resume before they call it a wrap. Lebron is just getting started. You can't compare him at his peak vs other guys at their peak because the competition isn't the same.

kdspurman
05-29-2011, 09:42 PM
i dont see him passing any of them to be honest. Now had you asked if he done it in cleveland, i think there's a different argument. unfortunately, and this is how many will see it, no matter what he does in miami he will always be looked at as a guy who couldnt get it done with the cavs. btw duncan and shaq are in a league of their own in terms of how they dominated. it's not even fair to compare lebron to them.

ManRam
05-29-2011, 09:46 PM
i dont see him passing any of them to be honest. Now had you asked if he done it in cleveland, i think there's a different argument. unfortunately, and this is how many will see it, no matter what he does in miami he will always be looked at as a guy who couldnt get it done with the cavs. btw duncan and shaq are in a league of their own in terms of how they dominated. it's not even fair to compare lebron to them.

So for LeBron to be as good as the rest, he had to win championships with less than all those guys? Makes sense :rolleyes:

He now has a team comparable to the turn of the century Lakers, and to the Spurs throughout their dynasty...yet we're gonna hold that against him?

Makes no sense. Kobe had Shaq for his first three, who was way better than Wade and/or Bosh...maybe even combined. Duncan had stacked teams with pound for pound the best coach I've ever seen.

Yet we're gonna hold LeBron to a higher standard and fault him for not winning on bad teams...bad teams that Kobe, Shaq and Duncan never could have won with themselves, nor did the win often with better teams.

showtym24
05-29-2011, 09:49 PM
To all the 'kobe had shaq so his rings dont count haters" Lebron has wade and bosh. Its so stupid to even to say this. No one wins by themselfs.

BigCityofDreams
05-29-2011, 10:26 PM
To all the 'kobe had shaq so his rings dont count haters" Lebron has wade and bosh. Its so stupid to even to say this. No one wins by themselfs.

It's funny but true. For yrs I heard Kobe had Shaq but now Lebron has Wade and Bosh but it's ok.

DODGERS&LAKERS
05-29-2011, 10:31 PM
I wonder if people are going to say Wade only has one ring. Or no rings. He won one with Shaq, and now one with Lebron. Im going to love the double standard that I KNOW will be coming.

Bravo95
05-30-2011, 12:14 AM
People need to cut the crap about who has what else on their side. If a team has two Top 5 players, it's championship or bust every season. James and Wade are Top 5 players today. Anything less than a title would be an unmitigated disaster. Bryant and O'Neal were Top 5 players when they won three straight, and both deserve equal credit for it, because when they lost, it became a stain on both players' resumes. Same goes for James and Wade if they don't win.

THE MTL
05-30-2011, 02:19 AM
Lebron can never be like anybody. He is on DWade's and Bosh's nuts. It's like Jordan calling Hakeen and Magic, "Hey, let's play together!"

Since when was Wade....Magic? And Bosh....Hakeem? Please dont soup it up lakerboy. Ur team is just as stacked as all the contenders in the league.

THE MTL
05-30-2011, 02:20 AM
I think Lebron James needs to win 3 rings but the catch is THREE FINALS MVPs.

THE MTL
05-30-2011, 02:23 AM
Lebron surpasses Kobe,Duncan,and shaq in the all-time ranking list?

IMO he has to win 3 to pass shaq
4 to surpass Duncan
And 5 to pass Kobe
I still see Kobe winning 1 or 2 rings and if Dwight comes maybe 3!

In the end I think Lebron will win 2-3 rings I would say 3-4 but I just think Dallas will win it all this year they are just on top of their game... Dirk has been the best player in these playoffs and quite frankly Dallas shooting and barreas penetration will ultimately kill Miami and Dallas will finally have there revenge!


I hate how ppl on KOBE's nuts cause he has five rings! Look, KObe is not better than Shaq. Those 3 rings with Shaq, how many Finals MVPs does Kobe have to show? NONE!

Rings are SO OVERRATED! Derek Fisher has five rings! Darko Millic has a ring! Robert Horry has SEVEN RINGS! (he must be better than them all)
Lets go by Finals MVPs.

Shaq = 3
Duncan = 3
KObe = 2

Those are the ppl winning the rings homie.

I say Lebron James passes all three once he gets 3 finals MVPs.

hyb152
05-30-2011, 02:24 AM
i dont see him passing any of them to be honest. Now had you asked if he done it in cleveland, i think there's a different argument. unfortunately, and this is how many will see it, no matter what he does in miami he will always be looked at as a guy who couldnt get it done with the cavs. btw duncan and shaq are in a league of their own in terms of how they dominated. it's not even fair to compare lebron to them.

I see what you're saying, but what you're saying is wrong. That cavs team was a complete joke. There are only 3 reasons why that team made it to the finals in 07. Lebron had that legendary game against Detroit, the east was very weak, and lebron was a 1 man team. If lebron didn't have that epic game vs detroit, the pistons would have played your spurs in the 2007 finals. That cavs team was such a joke and I don't even know how that team made it past the 2nd round. It was a combination of Lebron being really good and the east competition being really bad. When lebron wins how ever many rings with the heat, it will be because lebron LEAD the team. HE is batman. And when it's all said and done, the cavs days will be nothing but an after thought and people will be talking about how many titles lebron LEAD his team to.

basketfan4life
05-30-2011, 02:45 AM
bs. We are simply playing devil's advocate to the thousands of posts here that Laker fans post.

By the way, the team belongs to the team leader, and it changes year by year. LeBron is alpha dog. Its hit team. Get over it

i might agree with you on some levels, but you are giving way too much credit to lbj before he deserves, not only Dallas can win it all, but if the heat wins it all and wade outperforms lbj and get finals MVP, it's definitely wade's team...and people would remember lbj as a player who went and join Wade, who by the way already won a c'ship, and got over the hump because of him...

what else can you think with winning 2 ships and 2 finals mvp's and lbj having 1 ship and and zero mvps?

goodmike71
05-30-2011, 03:12 AM
People need to cut the crap about who has what else on their side. If a team has two Top 5 players, it's championship or bust every season. James and Wade are Top 5 players today. Anything less than a title would be an unmitigated disaster. Bryant and O'Neal were Top 5 players when they won three straight, and both deserve equal credit for it, because when they lost, it became a stain on both players' resumes. Same goes for James and Wade if they don't win.

I would say say they are the top 3 lebron being first and maybe wade 3rd. I wouldn't even mind saying Wade the 2nd best.

Law25
05-30-2011, 04:17 AM
Yeah. Wade really proved that this series :laugh:

Without Wade would the Heat had beat Boston. And if anyone wants to say the best player in the last series is the man on the team than its Bosh's team because he was the best and most consistant player that series for them. That being said it's Wade's team he already gave them what LeBron couldnt achieve in Cleveland, and since LeBron came to Wade and not the other way around it is and forever will be Wade's team.

pedrofan45
05-30-2011, 09:02 AM
Without Wade would the Heat had beat Boston. And if anyone wants to say the best player in the last series is the man on the team than its Bosh's team because he was the best and most consistant player that series for them. That being said it's Wade's team he already gave them what LeBron couldnt achieve in Cleveland, and since LeBron came to Wade and not the other way around it is and forever will be Wade's team.

honestly, have you been watching the games or just the highlights??

get off of kobe's jock, and realize that lebron is the main reason why this team has gone so far

pedrofan45
05-30-2011, 09:05 AM
I hate how ppl on KOBE's nuts cause he has five rings! Look, KObe is not better than Shaq. Those 3 rings with Shaq, how many Finals MVPs does Kobe have to show? NONE!

Rings are SO OVERRATED! Derek Fisher has five rings! Darko Millic has a ring! Robert Horry has SEVEN RINGS! (he must be better than them all)
Lets go by Finals MVPs.

Shaq = 3
Duncan = 3
KObe = 2

Those are the ppl winning the rings homie.

I say Lebron James passes all three once he gets 3 finals MVPs.

agreed

Hawkeye15
05-30-2011, 09:56 AM
i might agree with you on some levels, but you are giving way too much credit to lbj before he deserves, not only Dallas can win it all, but if the heat wins it all and wade outperforms lbj and get finals MVP, it's definitely wade's team...and people would remember lbj as a player who went and join Wade, who by the way already won a c'ship, and got over the hump because of him...

what else can you think with winning 2 ships and 2 finals mvp's and lbj having 1 ship and and zero mvps?

all fair points, and I can agree. I don't see it happening, but it wouldn't be out of the realm. And honestly, it may very well be LeBron's playoffs this year and Wade could explode next season. As long as LeBron LEADS his team to a couple or three chips, he can take a backseat an another 1-2 and his statistics for his career now do indeed push him over the likes of Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan.

And I know it gets overblown, and I am guilty as well, but Kobe being the #2 option on those teams isn't the biggest deal to me. Hell, best 2nd option of all time. Those rings do indeed count towards his legacy. Every damn one of them.

Hawkeye15
05-30-2011, 09:57 AM
Without Wade would the Heat had beat Boston. And if anyone wants to say the best player in the last series is the man on the team than its Bosh's team because he was the best and most consistant player that series for them. That being said it's Wade's team he already gave them what LeBron couldnt achieve in Cleveland, and since LeBron came to Wade and not the other way around it is and forever will be Wade's team.

stop reading boxscores and watch the games.

nycsports2
05-30-2011, 10:16 AM
i say 4-5 to PASS bc i think 4-5 can get him up there with jordan.. possibly depends how the career goes

ne3xchamps
05-30-2011, 11:06 AM
You hate Kobe so much it hurts you.. Kobe Bryants basketball IQ and skillset **** on Lebron, who relies purely on athleticism.

+1. It seems like this kobe vs. lebron will go on as long as kobe vs. mj or lebron vs. mj..... sometimes people just want to see what they want to. :laugh2:

ne3xchamps
05-30-2011, 11:11 AM
i dont see him passing any of them to be honest. Now had you asked if he done it in cleveland, i think there's a different argument. unfortunately, and this is how many will see it, no matter what he does in miami he will always be looked at as a guy who couldnt get it done with the cavs. btw duncan and shaq are in a league of their own in terms of how they dominated. it's not even fair to compare lebron to them.

+1.

Oh and for the record lebron isn't going to get 5 or 6 rings IMO. So if you want to go by rings, then he won't touch those guys. A lost year due to a lockout will really hurt.

ne3xchamps
05-30-2011, 11:16 AM
Without Wade would the Heat had beat Boston. And if anyone wants to say the best player in the last series is the man on the team than its Bosh's team because he was the best and most consistant player that series for them. That being said it's Wade's team he already gave them what LeBron couldnt achieve in Cleveland, and since LeBron came to Wade and not the other way around it is and forever will be Wade's team.

Nope. epic fail. Lebron has made it to the finals with cleveland. so until they win a chip, "wade's" team has done **** for prince jams.

mikealike305
05-30-2011, 11:21 AM
Nope. epic fail. Lebron has made it to the finals with cleveland. so until they win a chip, "wade's" team has done **** for prince jams.

i think he meant Wade gave them (miami) a ring, something lebron couldnt do in cleveland......

ne3xchamps
05-30-2011, 11:21 AM
Are you saying Kobe is higher than Shaq and Duncan?:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
And Duncan is higher than Shaq?

Number of of rings doesn't make your rank. It's just HOW you got them.

Wow, you have been watching basketball a long time I take it? This post doesn't even make a small spec of sense.

ne3xchamps
05-30-2011, 11:24 AM
i think he meant Wade gave them (miami) a ring, something lebron couldnt do in cleveland......

Oh, oh ok. It looked like he said miami helped lebron achieve what he couldn't do in cleveland. My bad.

mikealike305
05-30-2011, 11:29 AM
Oh, oh ok. It looked like he said miami helped lebron achieve what he couldn't do in cleveland. My bad.

yea he wrote it a little confusing so i could be wrong, i just asume thats what he meant

NBAfan4life
05-30-2011, 11:32 AM
i dont see him passing any of them to be honest. Now had you asked if he done it in cleveland, i think there's a different argument. unfortunately, and this is how many will see it, no matter what he does in miami he will always be looked at as a guy who couldnt get it done with the cavs. btw duncan and shaq are in a league of their own in terms of how they dominated. it's not even fair to compare lebron to them.

I hate Lebron, but your argument is flawed. Shaq left Orlando for LA so basically you're saying what Shaq did is meaningless because he did not do it with his original team.

Once Lebron wins people will eventually forget. Nobody remembers Shaq days when he used to get swept out of the playoffs every year. He used to have a stigma, now he is mainly remembered for being one of the most dominant bigs to ever step on the court.

Finally Kobe is my favorite player of all time. While Lebron is not there in terms of legacy he has a chance to go down as the better player if he can win and stay healthy. I believe Kobe will go down as the second best SG to ever play the game when he is done.

hugepatsfan
05-30-2011, 12:27 PM
Wow, you have been watching basketball a long time I take it? This post doesn't even make a small spec of sense.

Actually it makes a lot of sense. Simply having rings doesn't make you great or the best.

buch88
05-30-2011, 01:45 PM
Actually it makes a lot of sense. Simply having rings doesn't make you great or the best.

x2

i guess john stockton, barkley, malone, elgin baylor, and others weren't great right? they dont have any rings and luke walton has more rings than all 4 of those guys....

buch88
05-30-2011, 01:46 PM
To all the 'kobe had shaq so his rings dont count haters" Lebron has wade and bosh. Its so stupid to even to say this. No one wins by themselfs.

but there's a difference. kobe was robin and shaq was batman whereas lebron is batman and wade is robin. you're right about no one doing it by themselves, but shaq lead kobe to 3 rings while lebron will lead wade to rings.

Tony_Starks
05-30-2011, 03:32 PM
I wonder if people are going to say Wade only has one ring. Or no rings. He won one with Shaq, and now one with Lebron. Im going to love the double standard that I KNOW will be coming.


You know its coming. Wade will get all his props, and Lebron will get even more props. They'll all get credit for the ring and then people will be saying "nobody can win alone" as Laker fans just shake their heads and say "no kidding....."

Il Mago50
05-30-2011, 04:21 PM
If rings don't determine legacy, then why isn't Karl Malone considered the second best ever PF after Duncan with the numbers and wins he had? No rings.

Why is Dominique Wilkins not in the same league as the Birds and Magic of that era even though he was a small notch below them? No ring.

Anyone who says rings don't add to a legacy are just trying to find ways around rules to determine how Lebron will be considered the best ever. To pass Kobe, he needs to win 4 wins, one more then Kobe had with that team with O'Neal because he had much, much more help with the last two. You can't compare him to Duncan but I don't think anyone can match Shaq in terms of dominance as a player so it's best to compare apples to apples and not apples to oranges.

For him to pass Michael Jordan, he needs to equal or pass MJ's ring total, that's that. Otherwise, he will never be considered a better player then Jordan, I don't care what the experts say. Jordan was a much better defender, he was a consistent performer in the playoffs, he was a much better scorer, he was the ultimate alphadog in the NBA and dominated as both an athlete and as a savvy basketball player, both of which he was the best player in the league during.

hugepatsfan
05-30-2011, 04:26 PM
Let's say that this series goes 7 and it's tied w/ 10 seconds left - MIA ball. Lebron knocks down a pull up to put MIA up 2 w/ 1.5 seconds left.

Finish #1) MIA wins.

Finish #2) Dirk knocks down a half court shot to win the series.

Please explain to me how I or anyone else should view Lebron any differently depending on which finosh occurs. Yet in the 1st he has a ring but in the 2nd he doesn't, so people would act differently. It's stupid.

Hawkeye15
05-30-2011, 04:30 PM
If rings don't determine legacy, then why isn't Karl Malone considered the second best ever PF after Duncan with the numbers and wins he had? No rings.

Why is Dominique Wilkins not in the same league as the Birds and Magic of that era even though he was a small notch below them? No ring.

Anyone who says rings don't add to a legacy are just trying to find ways around rules to determine how Lebron will be considered the best ever. To pass Kobe, he needs to win 4 wins, one more then Kobe had with that team with O'Neal because he had much, much more help with the last two. You can't compare him to Duncan but I don't think anyone can match Shaq in terms of dominance as a player so it's best to compare apples to apples and not apples to oranges.

For him to pass Michael Jordan, he needs to equal or pass MJ's ring total, that's that. Otherwise, he will never be considered a better player then Jordan, I don't care what the experts say. Jordan was a much better defender, he was a consistent performer in the playoffs, he was a much better scorer, he was the ultimate alphadog in the NBA and dominated as both an athlete and as a savvy basketball player, both of which he was the best player in the league during.

He IS considered the 2nd best PF of all time by most.

Rings don't "define" a legacy. The can only add to it a bit.

Answer me this. Let's say Kobe had 0 rings, but had still dominated the past 13 years. Would he still not be great? Of course not

bringinwood
05-30-2011, 04:48 PM
It's pretty ridiculous to try to measure the greatness of a player based off of his championship rings...

Robert Horry isn't a top 200 player in NBA history and he's got 7 or something ridiculous like that...

However, great players find ways to win championships... It's just not as simple as X+Y=B as a calculatable measure of greatness...

Wilt is a top 5 player ( more like top 3 ) and he only won 2 championships...

Kobe isn't a top 10 player all time and he's got 5...


I'd say he has to win a few, but that won't, by itself, determine his place among the all time greats...

Raps18-19 Champ
05-30-2011, 04:50 PM
I honestly have Lebron top 20 all time with just 1 ring.

Give him a bunch more ring along with his regular season performances and he'll past all 3 players in no time.

bringinwood
05-30-2011, 04:56 PM
Probably no better example of this than Karl Malone...

Malone's greatness is unquestioned... He is a top 10 player all time and, arguably, the greatest PF to ever play...

Is his legacy tarnished by not winning a championship ??? Not in my eyes...

Il Mago50
05-30-2011, 05:29 PM
I put Lebron at or ahead of them now.

If Jordan was on a bad team with a bad coach and no supporting cast he'd still be have been the best ever and he wouldn't have won a title. Titles require circumstance and being great doesn't.

Lebron can do things that Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe (the order I'd rank the mentioned names) just can't do. Lebron's skill is on par with Magic and as I said in another post I think in 10 years Jodan, Magic, and Lebron will be the names most of us are talking about as the top 3 ever.

If Jordan had not won a ring, he would not have been the best player ever. He'd be what Malone is to Duncan right now, an all-time great but never won. To say otherwise is foolish because people remember the guys who win, not the guys who were great players but never did when comparing two similar guys. MJ would've been second or third to Magic and Bird had he not won anything. The thing that seperates the three is the amount of rings each has one.

Titles require circumstance, I agree, but when has a true superstar in this league that could carry a team with the right pieces not gotten those pieces? If a team has a true superstar, they put pieces around them, just like Bird got, just like Magic got and just like Mike got. What pieces was Lebron missing in his time in Cleveland that prevented him from winning? What stopped Lebron the past few years that didn't stop him when he beat much tougher teams like the dynasty Pistons when he had a much weaker supporting cast? He had all the pieces there to beat these teams, he just didn't do it, simple as that. It would be nice to add another all-star player onto the team, of course, but the Cavs did the best they could and got a guy like Jamison who could've easily been a 18-8 guy for them this year and gotten the Cavs past the Celtics.

From a skill level, Lebron is overrated in that he is not a great shooter, not a consistent finisher of games, and relies too much still on his physical dominance. Kobe, from a skill standpoint (moves, jumpshot, etc.) is a better player then Lebron is. Neither of these guys can you compare to Shaq and Duncan because they play totally different games but IMO, Shaq is the greatest and most valuable player ever in the history of the league after MJ, Magic and Bird. No other player could bring a championship and such dominance to the league like he did and until Lebron shows that kind of domination, Shaq is WAY ahead of him amongst the all-time greats.

bringinwood
05-30-2011, 05:40 PM
If Jordan had not won a ring, he would not have been the best player ever. He'd be what Malone is to Duncan right now, an all-time great but never won. To say otherwise is foolish because people remember the guys who win, not the guys who were great players but never did when comparing two similar guys. MJ would've been second or third to Magic and Bird had he not won anything. The thing that seperates the three is the amount of rings each has one.

Titles require circumstance, I agree, but when has a true superstar in this league that could carry a team with the right pieces not gotten those pieces? If a team has a true superstar, they put pieces around them, just like Bird got, just like Magic got and just like Mike got. What pieces was Lebron missing in his time in Cleveland that prevented him from winning? What stopped Lebron the past few years that didn't stop him when he beat much tougher teams like the dynasty Pistons when he had a much weaker supporting cast? He had all the pieces there to beat these teams, he just didn't do it, simple as that. It would be nice to add another all-star player onto the team, of course, but the Cavs did the best they could and got a guy like Jamison who could've easily been a 18-8 guy for them this year and gotten the Cavs past the Celtics.

From a skill level, Lebron is overrated in that he is not a great shooter, not a consistent finisher of games, and relies too much still on his physical dominance. Kobe, from a skill standpoint (moves, jumpshot, etc.) is a better player then Lebron is. Neither of these guys can you compare to Shaq and Duncan because they play totally different games but IMO, Shaq is the greatest and most valuable player ever in the history of the league after MJ, Magic and Bird. No other player could bring a championship and such dominance to the league like he did and until Lebron shows that kind of domination, Shaq is WAY ahead of him amongst the all-time greats.


With all due respect, you sir, are a moron...

LeBron not a consistent finisher of games ??? When ??? When he had Mo Williams and Anderson Varejo as 2nd options and they could collapse on him with double and triple teams ??? You saw how great LeBron can be when he has a 2nd option... This is a luxury Kobe has had his entire career...

Not a great shooter ??? For what he brings to the table, LeBron is an amazing shooter... Kobe is a better shooter, but not by enough to consider Kobe a better player... LeBron is a better defender, passer, rebounder, and playmaker, in general...

Kobe is the most overrated great talent in basketball... Put a guy like Jordan on the teams Kobe has had and Jordan wins 15 championships...

Lebron101
05-30-2011, 05:51 PM
Not 1, not 2, not 3 , not 4 , not 5, not 6, not 7 LMFAO so true!! :clap::clap: Lebron already proved himself once

Il Mago50
05-30-2011, 05:51 PM
He IS considered the 2nd best PF of all time by most.

Rings don't "define" a legacy. The can only add to it a bit.

Answer me this. Let's say Kobe had 0 rings, but had still dominated the past 13 years. Would he still not be great? Of course not

They define how dominant you were as a player, yes. People don't question Malone's greatness because he dominated 98% of the league during his career. Only a guy named Mike was what stood between him and 2-3 rings and that's why he won't have his legacy tarnished: he was one of the best but lost to THE best.

If Kobe had no rings, he'd be nothing more then what Dominique Wilkins was and saying otherwise is foolish. How many great scoring players has the league seen? Bernard King, Wilkins, Iverson, etc. Where do people consider these players when it comes to all time greats talks? Not among the top echelon because they never won. MJ was the first to prove that a scorer could win a championship and he did so in about the most dominating fashion imagined. Kobe would have been nothing more then a perrenial all-star who never got it done in the playoffs, similar to what Mcgrady's career is right now.

Where do you think McGrady would be ranked in the all-time greats list had he won 1-2 championships with the Rockets while doing what he did scoring wise all those years with the Magic? Probably right around where Kobe is listed right now....yet him not doing that has pushed him way back in the conversation. Winning matters.

Il Mago50
05-30-2011, 05:56 PM
It's pretty ridiculous to try to measure the greatness of a player based off of his championship rings...

Robert Horry isn't a top 200 player in NBA history and he's got 7 or something ridiculous like that...

However, great players find ways to win championships... It's just not as simple as X+Y=B as a calculatable measure of greatness...

Wilt is a top 5 player ( more like top 3 ) and he only won 2 championships...

Kobe isn't a top 10 player all time and he's got 5...


I'd say he has to win a few, but that won't, by itself, determine his place among the all time greats...

There's a difference between a role player winning the championship and an all-star winning one. A role player affects the game and helps a team win but their effect on a game is very limited. An all-star/superstar of a team carries the team and the team goes as that player or players do.

Robert Horry won all those rings, but he was a tiny piece on the teams compared to Duncan, Ginobli, and Hakeem.

By this logic, Adam Morrison having two rings would mean a rat's ***. There's a big difference in between being the top dog on a team and a small piece of it.

How many rings you win as the top dog while beating the other top dogs is going to determine where you place among them. Mcgrady won none versus Kobe's 5 and we know who people think is the better player even though McGrady might have been considered more skilled because of his passing and size compared to Kobe.

Rivera
05-30-2011, 06:01 PM
its not just # of rings its how you get them and how much work you put into them

meaning if lebron wins 6 rings....and wade wins all 6 nba finals mvps (not including 06) you think people are gonna rank lebron above michael or even kobe/duncan or dwayne wade for that matter?

its about everything not just rings for lebron to surpass kobes its mvps scoring titles consitently being on the 1st team defense # of total points/rebounds assists and playoff performances

it would have been easier for lebron to pass kobe duncan in cleveland...he prolly only needed to win 2 in cleveland to be better than kobe because most people would point out lebrons supporting cast

in miami its gonna be harder because people are gonna point to bosh and wade for lebrons help so its about the total package

and for the record probably 4 with miami and if he goes some where else at least one more

but if he stays with miami for his whole career from here on out....id say 5 or 6 maybe even 7 just because of what came out of his own mouth

not 5 not 6 not 7

Il Mago50
05-30-2011, 06:12 PM
With all due respect, you sir, are a moron...

LeBron not a consistent finisher of games ??? When ??? When he had Mo Williams and Anderson Varejo as 2nd options and they could collapse on him with double and triple teams ??? You saw how great LeBron can be when he has a 2nd option... This is a luxury Kobe has had his entire career...

Not a great shooter ??? For what he brings to the table, LeBron is an amazing shooter... Kobe is a better shooter, but not by enough to consider Kobe a better player... LeBron is a better defender, passer, rebounder, and playmaker, in general...

Kobe is the most overrated great talent in basketball... Put a guy like Jordan on the teams Kobe has had and Jordan wins 15 championships...

Alright, I'll take your comments in stride and explain myself. When has Lebron in his career shown that he is a consistent finisher of games? He has been notorious for blowing game winning shots for the most part or even giving up the chance to win it to a much lesser team mate via kickout. He has shown, besides two games against the Wizards in the playoffs early in his career, the 48 point Pistons game and that Magic game, no real late game heroics when it comes to hitting the big shot.

This year, time and time again with these great players around him, he came up short or faceplanted in attempts to hit the big shot. He tried to do what he does best and force his way inside then to try that way (i.e. against Bulls on last ABC sunday showcase they had) and it didn't work either.

I've given him his dues in these playoffs because he has played like an all-time great in these playoffs, hitting huge daggers and late shots that break the other team's back. But...this is a 2 month snippit of games where he has shown this ability. Him doing these things right now doesn't mean that he's figured it out, etc. When he does this for an extended period of time and people begin to fear him late in games when the ball is in his hands then he will trully ascend into that next level.

For now...he still needs to beat the Mavs to even have a championship on his resume.

As for the Kobe talk, Kobe has had great supporting casts there's no doubt about it. As a defender, in his prime Kobe was a better man to man defender. He has hit countless more shots and it doesn't matter whether you have one guy or two guys on you because at the end of the day, you still have to hit those shots. Lebron didn't get double teamed nearly as much as you seem to think late in games because teams aren't stupid to leave capable shooters wide open. Lebron is a better passer, playmaker, and rebounder but Kobe was a much better overall scorer as he combined a lot of what Lebron does athletically with a better overall skillset when it comes to VARIETY AND VERSITILITY OF WAYS OF SCORING, WHERE YOU HAVE MULTIPLE OPTIONS OF SCORING...Kobe had more of this while Lebron, while an improved shooter, still uses his Shaq-esk physical dominance to get a large quantity of his points.

Lebron is the better player right now, but Kobe is for the career comparision because the acolades and accomplishments speak for themselves.

Il Mago50
05-30-2011, 06:37 PM
Also, Mo Williams is not a half bad second option and when in the world was Varajeo the 2nd-3rd or any option, the man shot 4-5 shots on a given night...:S

Ebbs
05-30-2011, 07:43 PM
If he even wins one he could be considered better IMO at the end of his career based on his individual stats, and accolades.

kdspurman
05-31-2011, 09:05 AM
So for LeBron to be as good as the rest, he had to win championships with less than all those guys? Makes sense :rolleyes:

He now has a team comparable to the turn of the century Lakers, and to the Spurs throughout their dynasty...yet we're gonna hold that against him?

Makes no sense. Kobe had Shaq for his first three, who was way better than Wade and/or Bosh...maybe even combined. Duncan had stacked teams with pound for pound the best coach I've ever seen.

Yet we're gonna hold LeBron to a higher standard and fault him for not winning on bad teams...bad teams that Kobe, Shaq and Duncan never could have won with themselves, nor did the win often with better teams.

this is just my opinion man, if you don't like it idk what to tell you. duncan had a chance to do what lebron did in 2000 and team up with a then great grant hill in orlando but chose to stay in sa and won 3 more titles. as i said this is my opinion, so i appreciate that more than what lebron did. kobe stayed throughout as well. shaq, can't really argue loyalty with him, but his sheer dominance throughout the early 2000s was like none i've ever seen before.

david robinson was the only one superstar tim joined with and even in 99 was starting to wind down as duncan has been. parker didn't even play in clutch moments in 2003 it was speedy claxton and manu wasn't even a starter. he didn't exactly walk into a situation with solidified stars. it was developed over time and they developed chemistry. kobe struggled during many years without a #2 but for all the talk about how soft gasol is, making the finals 3 years straight with gasol and an injured bynum is definitely admirable.

now, in terms of all time ranks, i just can't see him passing them. you can't tell me shaq, duncan, or kobe would've quit the way he did vs boston. and why? cause he knew he was going to miami so he decided to postpone his hunger for a title? give me a break. people get so hopped up on what lebron is doing now (rightfully so) , but go back and watch how those guys impacted the game. they all have the stats, and rings to back it up. at the end of the day if lebron gets 4-5, what about him will put him ahead of those guys? i cant think of anything he does that they didn't that will put him ahead of them. and that's what it comes down to.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2011, 09:08 AM
They define how dominant you were as a player, yes. People don't question Malone's greatness because he dominated 98% of the league during his career. Only a guy named Mike was what stood between him and 2-3 rings and that's why he won't have his legacy tarnished: he was one of the best but lost to THE best.

If Kobe had no rings, he'd be nothing more then what Dominique Wilkins was and saying otherwise is foolish. How many great scoring players has the league seen? Bernard King, Wilkins, Iverson, etc. Where do people consider these players when it comes to all time greats talks? Not among the top echelon because they never won. MJ was the first to prove that a scorer could win a championship and he did so in about the most dominating fashion imagined. Kobe would have been nothing more then a perrenial all-star who never got it done in the playoffs, similar to what Mcgrady's career is right now.

Where do you think McGrady would be ranked in the all-time greats list had he won 1-2 championships with the Rockets while doing what he did scoring wise all those years with the Magic? Probably right around where Kobe is listed right now....yet him not doing that has pushed him way back in the conversation. Winning matters.


Does the word "enhance" become acceptable to you than? I am sorry, I will never change my mind. A player's legacy is defined by his own individual play. If he happens to be fortunate enough to have the roster support to win him a championship, I have no problem saying their legacy is ''enhanced" slightly.

You don't have to be a ring winner to be a top 10 player of all time. Not in my book.