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Bruno
05-23-2011, 05:09 AM
Eight of the top ten three-point FG shooters in NBA history were active for the 2010-2011 season. Six of those eight were active for the 2011 NBA playoffs. Those eight players were all drafted within a five year period from '94-'99.

With the establishment of the three point line in 1980, is it surprising to see eight of the top ten FG scorers in NBA history all come from the '94-'99 drafts? What is the reason for this?


1. Ray Allen- 2612
2. Reggie Miller- 2560
3. Jason Kidd- 1795
4. Peja Stojakovic- 1760
5. Chauncey Billups- 1735
6. Dale Ellis- 1719
7. Rashard Lewis- 1674
8. Jason Terry- 1650
9. Paul Pierce- 1578
10. Steve Nash- 1565

Basketball-Reference, Three-point FG Career Leaders (link). (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg3_career.html?ls=gt2hp0021001053)



1979-80
•Three-point line established 22 feet in the corners extending to 23 feet, nine inches at the top of the key.


1994-95
•Shortened the three-point line (22 feet in the corners extending to 23 feet, nine inches at the top of the key) to a uniform 22 feet around the basket.


1997-98
• The three-point line, 22 feet from the basket, lengthened to its original distance of 23 feet, nine inches, except in the corners, where the distance remained 22 feet.


NBA Rules History (link). (http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html?ls=gt2hp0021001053)

MFFL==FML
05-23-2011, 05:15 AM
3 of the top 10 play for Dallas!!! :speechless:

John Walls Era
05-23-2011, 05:30 AM
Thats interesting. I don't think its a coincidence, but I obviously can't prove why.

BlondeBomber41
05-23-2011, 05:39 AM
I think its because the outside shot became more of a focus to kids after the shot was established, and it took a bit for the new generation of shooters to come in.

As for the list, Kidd, Terry, Stojakovic, and thats not even considering Dirk Nowitzki. Alot of great shooters on the Mavs.

BlondeBomber41
05-23-2011, 05:39 AM
I think its because the outside shot became more of a focus to kids after the shot was established, and it took a bit for the new generation of shooters to come in.

As for the list, Kidd, Terry, Stojakovic, and thats not even considering Dirk Nowitzki. Alot of great shooters on the Mavs.

BlondeBomber41
05-23-2011, 05:45 AM
Also, just wanted to point out... you said 7 of the 8 players were active in the playoffs. Isn't exactly true, both Rashard Lewis and Steve Nash were out of the playoffs. :)

Bruno
05-23-2011, 05:57 AM
Also, just wanted to point out... you said 7 of the 8 players were active in the playoffs. Isn't exactly true, both Rashard Lewis and Steve Nash were out of the playoffs. :)

Thanks bomber.

Bruno
05-23-2011, 06:03 AM
As for the list, Kidd, Terry, Stojakovic, and thats not even considering Dirk Nowitzki. Alot of great shooters on the Mavs.

Dirk is 39th all-time.

Bruno
05-23-2011, 06:06 AM
Although eight of the top ten are active, only 21 of the top 50 are active.

bagwell368
05-23-2011, 07:11 AM
Not only did players have to adjust, so did coaches. It's maybe a 15-20 year cycle.

Then having the line move in capped it. Bird would have been even greater with the shorter line for instance, but, he didn't grow up with 3's he was just a great shooter that adapted to the 3.

Add in that now low post offensive back to the basket play is increasingly rare everybody faces up and shoots. When is the last time you saw a classic jump hook shot?

It's also easier to get an open shot at 24' then it is at 14', and with the bonus point, and the high percentages (say .38 for a good 3 shooter) vs .5 for a good 2 shooter at 14' - the numbers say, take the 3.

IMO the game is off balance as is. The SG that can handle the ball (Wade) is a very powerful force on the court. It was out of the balance the other way back in the 60's when the Centers tended to dominate. IMO the line should be moved to 24' when it's not on the side, and zone like D's have to be tamped down too so the bigs can actually get some space. Oh yeah, the obligitory hard foul on any offensive player in the paint has to get cut back by making more of them flagrant. That's not even defense, it's just have a goon beat on someone. That's thug like.

Kobes a Killer
05-23-2011, 08:27 AM
Didn't know Jason Terry and Rashard Lewis were so high. Damn I hate terry

Rentzias
05-23-2011, 09:48 AM
I would say that this is just a matter of stabilization and evolution. I remember after the 3-point line was moved back that the trend at my high school was to shoot "NBA threes," so a lot of us started pulling up well behind the three point line. Translate that to players across the nation, and you'll see that by the time skilled three pointers where hitting their stride in the NBA (people on your list), the NBA three was a comfortable distance.
You would think that a lot of people on that list would be from the shortened line period, but really only Miller and Ellis benefited somewhat from that period. Three point makes and attempts today are on a par with the '94-'96 period.
Just a theory anyway that it took the generation raised on NBA threes to come in and comfortably perform from that distance, and as mentioned above by bagwell, coaches have adjusted accordingly to utilize these guys.

eugene
05-23-2011, 10:30 AM
How Lewis got into that list??

Jaji
05-23-2011, 10:32 AM
I can't believe J. Kidd made it to this list. I remember when he couldn't hit a J to save his life. One of my all time faves so I'm happy to see all his hard work pay off.

Rentzias
05-23-2011, 10:36 AM
How Lewis got into that list??

If you played fantasy basketball circa 2 to 4 years ago, it wouldn't be so surprising.

Jaji
05-23-2011, 10:38 AM
No surprise that 8 of them are active to be honest. These guys all grew up with a 3 point line so they've been shooting them since they've been playing ball. Players from older generations got introduced to the 3 point shot after they began playing. It would be like suddenly adding a 4 point shot from 26 feet out. The kids would be at an advantage because they'd start pulling more shots from 26 feet at a younger age, knowing that 4 point shot exists. Before the 3 point line, there was really no motivation to pull from 23'-9".

thekmp211
05-23-2011, 10:39 AM
i would dispute labeling this group as the top 3 point shooters of all time. it's a list of shooters with the most three point makes in nba history. this distinction is important.

i think it's just because of a growing emphasis on the 3 point shot at all levels of the game. it's been slowly on the rise since the line was developed, and has gone from a seldom-used gimmick to, in some cases today, the backbone of an offensive scheme. i'd say in another generation, a good portion of these names will have been replaced by guys like steph curry, kevin durant, ect.

Rentzias
05-23-2011, 11:05 AM
i would dispute labeling this group as the top 3 point shooters of all time. it's a list of shooters with the most three point makes in nba history. this distinction is important.

i think it's just because of a growing emphasis on the 3 point shot at all levels of the game. it's been slowly on the rise since the line was developed, and has gone from a seldom-used gimmick to, in some cases today, the backbone of an offensive scheme. i'd say in another generation, a good portion of these names will have been replaced by guys like steph curry, kevin durant, ect.

To help you get to your 2000th post, what's a good checklist for "Top Three Point Shooter"?

KnicksorBust
05-23-2011, 11:10 AM
Eight of the top ten three-point FG shooters in NBA history were active for the 2010-2011 season. Six of those eight were active for the 2011 NBA playoffs. Those eight players were all drafted within a five year period from '94-'99.

With the establishment of the three point line in 1980, is it surprising to see eight of the top ten FG scorers in NBA history all come from the '94-'99 drafts? What is the reason for this?



Basketball-Reference, Three-point FG Career Leaders (link). (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg3_career.html?ls=gt2hp0021001053)








NBA Rules History (link). (http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html?ls=gt2hp0021001053)

When these guys were around 8 years old they got to start practicing threes and spend the next decade perfecting their shot. It'd be like if we added a 4pt shot now. Players like Durant could the league but they'd probably only take 2-3 per game as they got used to the shot. In 15 years, Antoine Walker Jr. might be lettin em fly 8 times per game.

Jaji
05-23-2011, 11:10 AM
To help you get to your 2000th post, what's a good checklist for "Top Three Point Shooter"?

Percentage with a minimum amount. Steph Curry shoots 44% from 3 for his career but obviously won't be on this list because he's only been in the league 2 years. But none of those guys on that list shot above 40% their first 2 years. Steph has more makes in his first 2 years than all those guys too.

Jaji
05-23-2011, 11:12 AM
No surprise that 8 of them are active to be honest. These guys all grew up with a 3 point line so they've been shooting them since they've been playing ball. Players from older generations got introduced to the 3 point shot after they began playing. It would be like suddenly adding a 4 point shot from 26 feet out. The kids would be at an advantage because they'd start pulling more shots from 26 feet at a younger age, knowing that 4 point shot exists. Before the 3 point line, there was really no motivation to pull from 23'-9".


When these guys were around 8 years old they got to start practicing threes and spend the next decade perfecting their shot. It'd be like if we added a 4pt shot now. Players like Durant could the league but they'd probably only take 2-3 per game as they got used to the shot. In 15 years, Antoine Walker Jr. might be lettin em fly 8 times per game.

Well said (or read :eyebrow:)

:laugh2:

Havoc Wreaker
05-23-2011, 11:25 AM
I am surprised that Terry is on that list as well

Rentzias
05-23-2011, 11:57 AM
Percentage with a minimum amount. Steph Curry shoots 44% from 3 for his career but obviously won't be on this list because he's only been in the league 2 years. But none of those guys on that list shot above 40% their first 2 years. Steph has more makes in his first 2 years than all those guys too.
What should be the career percentage Mendoza line? Can't be 40% because you lose Reggie and Ray Ray. I would also say 150 per year minimum, and 1500 minimum career makes to be considered for Top All-Time. Arbitrary numbers, I might research later what an appropriate number should be.

ragee
05-23-2011, 12:06 PM
When these guys were around 8 years old they got to start practicing threes and spend the next decade perfecting their shot. It'd be like if we added a 4pt shot now. Players like Durant could the league but they'd probably only take 2-3 per game as they got used to the shot. In 15 years, Antoine Walker Jr. might be lettin em fly 8 times per game.

8 years old? I was like 13 when I was able to make a 3!

BlondeBomber41
05-23-2011, 12:08 PM
I'm not surprised Terry is on it. He has been around for 11 years, shoots and hits a ton of 3's, and has only missed a combined 25 games in those 11 years due to injury. So he has been around to hit em.

LA_Raiders
05-23-2011, 12:12 PM
live or die by the 3. We will see how the Mavbricks do vs Chicago's D.

Jaji
05-23-2011, 12:34 PM
What should be the career percentage Mendoza line? Can't be 40% because you lose Reggie and Ray Ray. I would also say 150 per year minimum, and 1500 minimum career makes to be considered for Top All-Time. Arbitrary numbers, I might research later what an appropriate number should be.

40% is an incredible percentage to shoot from beyond the arc. But if you're making a top 10 list, you just take the top 10. You shouldn't cut it off at 40% because I doubt you'll find 10 guys who have shot 40% from 3 for their career. But a minimum amount of attempts must be achieved because making 1 out of 2 clearly doesn't make you the best lol.

BklynKnicks3
05-23-2011, 01:19 PM
Jamal crawford will be top 10 soon

Chronz
05-23-2011, 01:55 PM
It shouldnt come as a surprise, why would you master a shot from that far away if it wasnt worth the extra point? Even more why would it become a staple of your game? You essentially become Pistol Pete and suffer the fate of being a cancerous gunner who cant win.

Chronz
05-23-2011, 01:58 PM
8 years old? I was like 13 when I was able to make a 3!
EDIT: NVM I have no idea what point your trying to make

Jaji
05-23-2011, 01:58 PM
live or die by the 3. We will see how the Mavbricks do vs Chicago's D.

No we won't :laugh2:.

PhillyFaninLA
05-23-2011, 02:03 PM
I'd take a Larry Bird 3 point attempt over anyone on that list except Ray Allen or Reggie Miller.

Stats don't tell the story and are very often misleading.

thekmp211
05-23-2011, 04:28 PM
To help you get to your 2000th post, what's a good checklist for "Top Three Point Shooter"?

i mean makes definitely do factor in. i'd say a cross-sectional of percentage and attempts would be needed to identify the "best" 3 point shooters. ultimately, it's the kind of debate that is never won definitively.

for reference, here is a list of the top 3 point shooters by percentage.

http://www.rauzulusstreet.com/basketball/nbarecords/career3pointper.htme

now, a guy like tim legler who is fourth on this list, is quite clearly not one of the best of all time. his lofty percentage is diminished by the fact that he only took 603 3's in his career. when you look at it that way, a guy like glen rice stands out because he maintained a 40% clip from 3 while attempting almost four THOUSAND in his career. very impressive.

then, of course, you have kobe. for my money he is one of the most talented shooters ever, but the shots he takes are so difficult that it's hard to know just how good of a pure shooter he is.

so, the best way to break it down is probably to compare and contrast these two lists while staying aware of historical context.

for my money, i'd probably choose nash. dead-eye shooter who, unlike most prolific three point shooters who spot up, creates almost all his own offense. kerr, rice, reggie, allen, are all right there.

2000 posts, woo.

Bruno
05-23-2011, 04:43 PM
I understand what all you guys are saying in terms of the natural evolution of the game, and having it slowly become more integrated into the league as time goes on; I also understand the point that shooting from that far away without being awarded an extra point would be pointless. It's just interesting to me that these eight guys were all drafted within a five year period, and that even the earliest draftee of them all (Kidd, '94) was drafted 14 seasons after the three point line was introduced.

The detail that stands out to me is that only 21 of the top 50 are contemporary, yet eight of the top ten are contemporary.

thekmp211
05-23-2011, 05:01 PM
http://www.rauzulusstreet.com/basketball/nbarecords/career3pointper.htm

previous link was bad.

bruno, to respond, if you take a look at the percentages list, you'll see nash is the only active player in the top 10. out of the top 25, only 4 are active (assuming michael redd gets picked up this offseason).

active players being on the all-time makes list isn't that weird, because offenses have leaned more and more on the three in the years since it was introduced. what strikes me as odd is that the guys with the most makes are, for the most part, not on the percentages list. so guys have been taking more threes at a less efficient pace. wonder why that is?

Jaji
05-23-2011, 05:05 PM
EDIT: NVM I have no idea what point your trying to make

:laugh:

DoJoTheSlasher
05-23-2011, 05:06 PM
live or die by the 3. We will see how the Mavbricks do vs Chicago's D.

Bricks? Dirk, Terry, Kidd, Peja, etc..

Don't understand how we brick shots especially when you have the biggest chucker and bricker in the NBA (Artest)

Jaji
05-23-2011, 05:08 PM
http://www.rauzulusstreet.com/basketball/nbarecords/career3pointper.htm

previous link was bad.

bruno, to respond, if you take a look at the percentages list, you'll see nash is the only active player in the top 10. out of the top 25, only 4 are active (assuming michael redd gets picked up this offseason).

active players being on the all-time makes list isn't that weird, because offenses have leaned more and more on the three in the years since it was introduced. what strikes me as odd is that the guys with the most makes are, for the most part, not on the percentages list. so guys have been taking more threes at a less efficient pace. wonder why that is?

Yeah this list makes way more sense in regards to the title. Obviously the OP's list is different, 3 pointers made vs best 3 point shooter. Big difference. This list has the names you'd expect to see when talking about best 3 pt shooters.

Bruno
05-23-2011, 05:41 PM
http://www.rauzulusstreet.com/basketball/nbarecords/career3pointper.htm

previous link was bad.

bruno, to respond, if you take a look at the percentages list, you'll see nash is the only active player in the top 10. out of the top 25, only 4 are active (assuming michael redd gets picked up this offseason).

active players being on the all-time makes list isn't that weird, because offenses have leaned more and more on the three in the years since it was introduced. what strikes me as odd is that the guys with the most makes are, for the most part, not on the percentages list. so guys have been taking more threes at a less efficient pace. wonder why that is?

Thanks for providing that info. I see a handful of guys in the top 10 in percentages who were active during the '94-'97 seasons when the three-point line was shortened. Using Steve Kerr as the example, that absolutely contributed to his career three-point FG% being at 45.4% (highest in league history).

Kerr attempted 644 three-point FGA's from '94-'97 over a three year period. Kerr attempted 1,599 three-point FGA's over his fifteen year NBA career. Despite being active from '88-'89 until '02-'03, Steve Kerr attempted 40.3% of the total three pointers he shot for his career in the three year period from '94-'97 (644/1,599).

Steve Kerr was given a license to kill as a result of the three-point line being shortened. Kerr shot 52.4% from three in '95 (up a full 10.5% points from his '94 average). He shot 51.5% in '96, and 46.4% in '97. Out of the 726 three pointers that Kerr made in his 15 year career, 321 of those 3's came during that three year period.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kerrst01.html

Not to step on any Bulls fans toes here, but when your team is built around the SG/SF dynamic, a shortened three-point line would obviously pad the reality of not having a legitimate offensive post-presence (if you have the shooters, which they did). The Bulls were fantastic regardless and won four of their six titles with the longer three-point line; just something to think about.

I understand the point you guys are making regarding % perhaps carrying mroe weight than total three point FGs made. But I maintain that the % leaders numbers are inflated due to the '94-'97 shortening of the three point line.

In the simplest of terms, the three-point % top ten can not serve as the best ruler in terms of "best three point shooters" by the very fact that Reggie and Ray aren't in it, IMO.

Bruno
05-23-2011, 05:45 PM
Yeah this list makes way more sense in regards to the title. Obviously the OP's list is different, 3 pointers made vs best 3 point shooter. Big difference. This list has the names you'd expect to see when talking about best 3 pt shooters.

That's where I'd split with you guys. Reggie and Ray aren't in the top ten in %.

dodie53
05-23-2011, 06:00 PM
nash is really great no?

i wish he gets traded to a contender next season

thekmp211
05-23-2011, 06:01 PM
Thanks for providing that info. I see a handful of guys in the top 10 in percentages who were active during the '94-'97 seasons when the three-point line was shortened. Using Steve Kerr as the example, that absolutely contributed to his career three-point FG% being at 45.4% (highest in league history).

Kerr attempted 644 three-point FGA's from '94-'97 over a three year period. Kerr attempted 1,599 three-point FGA's over his fifteen year NBA career. Despite being active from '88-'89 until '02-'03, Steve Kerr attempted 40.3% of the total three pointers he shot for his career in the three year period from '94-'97 (644/1,599).

Steve Kerr was given a license to kill as a result of the three-point line being shortened. Kerr shot 52.4% from three in '95 (up a full 10.5% points from his '94 average). He shot 51.5% in '96, and 46.4% in '97. Out of the 726 three pointers that Kerr made in his 15 year career, 321 of those 3's came during that three year period.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kerrst01.html

Not to step on any Bulls fans toes here, but when your team is built around the SG/SF dynamic, a shortened three-point line would obviously pad the reality of not having a legitimate offensive post-presence (if you have the shooters, which they did). The Bulls were fantastic regardless and won four of their six titles with the longer three-point line; just something to think about.

I understand the point you guys are making regarding % perhaps carrying mroe weight than total three point FGs made. But I maintain that the % leaders numbers are inflated due to the '94-'97 shortening of the three point line.

In the simplest of terms, the three-point % top ten can not serve as the best ruler in terms of "best three point shooters" by the very fact that Reggie and Ray aren't in it, IMO.

interesting stuff about kerr. i definitely agree that neither list is all-inclusive when it comes to evaluating shooters. reggie and ray are obviously on the short list, and FWIW while neither is in the top 10 3pt fg%, they are both in the top 25. so the disparity really isn't massive.

Bruno
05-23-2011, 06:06 PM
interesting stuff about kerr. i definitely agree that neither list is all-inclusive when it comes to evaluating shooters. reggie and ray are obviously on the short list, and FWIW while neither is in the top 10 3pt fg%, they are both in the top 25. so the disparity really isn't massive.

Good point. Thanks again from providing the % leaders, I didn't think to cross-reference that list.

Rentzias
05-23-2011, 06:43 PM
The dropoff between 1 and 2 to the rest of the field is insane though, just looking at the makes, and both are just a hair under 40%. I would say that having either Ray Ray or Reggie in the Top 3 is minimum when making the Top All Time Three Point Shooters list.

Jaji
05-23-2011, 06:50 PM
That's where I'd split with you guys. Reggie and Ray aren't in the top ten in %.

Some combination of both then. It really is subjective though. Anyone can name their top 10 and use makes and percentages to justify their list. We were just talking this isn't official lol.

Bruno
05-23-2011, 07:10 PM
The dropoff between 1 and 2 to the rest of the field is insane though, just looking at the makes, and both are just a hair under 40%. I would say that having either Ray Ray or Reggie in the Top 3 is minimum when making the Top All Time Three Point Shooters list.

x2


Some combination of both then. It really is subjective though. Anyone can name their top 10 and use makes and percentages to justify their list. We were just talking this isn't official lol.

Ray Allen- 39.9%
Jason Kidd- 34.8%
Peja Stojakovic- 40.1%
Chauncey Billups- 38.9%
Rashard Lewis- 39.0%
Jason Terry- 38.0%
Paul Pierce- 36.9%
Steve Nash- 42.9%

No list is perfect, but look at those percentages. Outside of Kidd and Pierce, I'd say that every other player has a legitimate claim as being a top ten three point shooter in NBA history, based off their combination of FGM and percentage.

I agree, no list is perfect. I'd argue that Kerr is a top ten three point shooter even though he doesn't crack the top ten in 3 FG made.

ragee
05-23-2011, 07:22 PM
EDIT: NVM I have no idea what point your trying to make

Hahaha.... My point was I can't imagine an 8 year old shooting 3s... They could try but all it is going to hit is air...

tyfreaks brotha
05-23-2011, 08:24 PM
Rashard Lewis still on that list ? Damn... He's a pretty good shooter... Or was... But now he's completly washed up

CityofChaos
05-23-2011, 08:59 PM
Anthony Morrow should be on that list soon even though hes a bench player...The dude an flat out shoot the 3

KnicksR4Real
05-23-2011, 09:09 PM
Anthony Morrow should be on that list soon even though hes a bench player...The dude an flat out shoot the 3

this

KnicksR4Real
05-23-2011, 09:10 PM
Rashard Lewis still on that list ? Damn... He's a pretty good shooter... Or was... But now he's completly washed up

completely agree. he disappeared in washington

EaglePride615
05-23-2011, 11:36 PM
cant believe rashard is that high. thats crazy all he does is jack up 3s. just wow

Raph12
05-24-2011, 12:21 AM
With all of the athleticism and diversity in drafting (international players), the league is much better now in terms of talent and ability whether people like to believe it or not... Now if we didn't have all of these ticky-tack fouls being called, NBA would be in the golden age.