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View Full Version : What if the "Malice at the Palace" never happened?



fadedmario
05-21-2011, 02:00 AM
Would the Indiana Pacers have won a title in 04-05 if the fight at the palace never happened? They were ridiculous that year before that fight and looked real strong. I have always wondered what might have been with that team. What do you think? Support you answers.

http://www.whatifsports.com/nba-l/profile_team.asp?hfid=11&season=2004-05

Watch this Video -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvTAJo4tCLc

Savage Sunday
05-21-2011, 02:03 AM
I've always wondered this too.

That team had a shutdown perimeter D tandem of a young Captain Jack & a crazy, volatile Ron Artest when he was in his Rodman "win at all costs" phase.

I do think they would've reached the Finals that year.

Wade>You
05-21-2011, 02:07 AM
Artest is a garbage defender. Anybody who knows the rules of basketball will tell you the same. The NBA, on the other hand, turned him into a DPOY.

Savage Sunday
05-21-2011, 02:11 AM
Artest is a garbage defender. Anybody who knows the rules of basketball will tell you the same. The NBA, on the other hand, turned him into a DPOY.

Now, yes hes become too slow to stay in front of SG's and SF's.

6 years ago, he was the best defender in the entire game bar none.

So I'm not really sure what your point is.:confused:

Colts2180
05-21-2011, 02:15 AM
Im a long time Pacer fan and I was watching the game when it happened. I remember talking to my friend on the phone about how we was about to stomp the defending champs in there own house when it all happened. That team was straight filthy and had just came off a 61 win season. We had just added Steven Jackson in the offseason and was looking to take it all. Sad sad what potential was never realized. Greatest chance of Reggie getting a ring that year and it was floundered because of a Bi tch that couldnt take that his team was getting hammered and had to start something with Artest. Then a piece of **** fan throws a beer and our seasons over...

Colts2180
05-21-2011, 02:16 AM
Artest was the best. He screwed himself out of a great career.

Time2Dieeee
05-21-2011, 02:17 AM
maybe would have gotten to the finals? which west team played in the finals that year? was it the super lakers?

bosox3431
05-21-2011, 02:17 AM
they may have.

But regarding the incident. I dont blame Artest, except for the guy he punched on the floor. Did the arrest the guy in the blue jacket who got the cheap shots in on Artest?

fadedmario
05-21-2011, 02:18 AM
Im a long time Pacer fan and I was watching the game when it happened. I remember talking to my friend on the phone about how we was about to stomp the defending champs in there own house when it all happened. That team was straight filthy and had just came off a 61 win season. We had just added Steven Jackson in the offseason and was looking to take it all. Sad sad what potential was never realized. Greatest chance of Reggie getting a ring that year and it was floundered because of a Bi tch that couldnt take that his team was getting hammered and had to start something with Artest. Then a piece of **** fan throws a beer and our seasons over...

Artest got *****ed by Big Ben - lol - Artest looked scared

fadedmario
05-21-2011, 02:19 AM
maybe would have gotten to the finals? which west team played in the finals that year? was it the super lakers?

The Pistons were tied with the Spurs at the end of the 3rd quarter in game 7 of the finals - The west wasn't that much better that year - if any.

koLohe2133
05-21-2011, 02:24 AM
Bigger question:

What if Dale Davis was on that team?

I think he would have killed at least five pistons fans

Time2Dieeee
05-21-2011, 02:25 AM
The Pistons were tied with the Spurs at the end of the 3rd quarter in game 7 of the finals - The west wasn't that much better that year - if any.

thats right...for some reason i was thinking of the year before. cant blame me cuz that was a horrible finals...prolly one the lowest ratings after cavs and spurs back in 07

fadedmario
05-21-2011, 02:28 AM
thats right...for some reason i was thinking of the year before. cant blame me cuz that was a horrible finals...prolly one the lowest ratings after cavs and spurs back in 07

True - good series though - if it wasn't for Robert ****ing Horry - Detroit would have been back to back Champs :(

beasted86
05-21-2011, 02:30 AM
Since when did it get that nickname?

fadedmario
05-21-2011, 02:30 AM
Since when did it get that nickname?

The year it happened - lol

fadedmario
05-21-2011, 02:31 AM
I always liked Reggie Miller and I agree with Colts - I do think that was his best shot at a ring. Too bad his teammates were head cases...

beasted86
05-21-2011, 02:32 AM
The year it happened - lol

That's the first time I've heard that.

Everyone I've heard basically just calls it the Pistons Pacers Brawl.

Savage Sunday
05-21-2011, 02:33 AM
bigger question:

What if dale davis was on that team?

I think he would have killed at least five pistons fans

lmfao

Savage Sunday
05-21-2011, 02:36 AM
I always liked Reggie Miller and I agree with Colts - I do think that was his best shot at a ring. Too bad his teammates were head cases...
The thuggery of that team rubbed off on him too.

The year before Reggie Miller slapped up Kobe Bryant.

Colts2180
05-21-2011, 02:54 AM
Artest scared? U really just say that lol. Artest was smiling at Wallace making a fool of himself. Just laying on the scorers table as to say "I have no reason to worry about your punk ***" Wallace was a punk and always will be. Artest was a head case but he was trying to be good. My favorite part was when JO knocked that guy out that ran up on him in the middle of the court lol.

Meloman
05-21-2011, 03:03 AM
I absolutely think the Pacers would have won the title. They were the best team in the league. I think that's fact. They had just finished absolutely decimating the Pistons in Detroit, and given how closely they played, I'd say San Antonio wasn't much better than Detroit. I believe they were 9-2 at the time of the brawl, and they were only gonna get better as Stephen Jackson got more integrated into the offense. What really annoys me is that the '05 finals had to be the least entertaining 7 game series in sports history. I mean other then the end of game 5 it was near unwatchable. I think the Pacers at the very least make it a more fun series. What also should be noted is the long term implications this had on the Pacers franchise. They had to trade Artest, Jackson, Jermaine O'neal and Jamaal Tinsley to clean up their image, taking on some awful contracts (mainly Murphy and Dunleavy) along the way. The brawl set the Pacers back years, they are just now starting to recover.

KniCks4LiFe
05-21-2011, 03:07 AM
Artest would still be a Pacer and that team would eventually make breakdown, b/c Larry Brown's Pistons owned the East back then.

fadedmario
05-21-2011, 03:08 AM
Artest scared? U really just say that lol. Artest was smiling at Wallace making a fool of himself. Just laying on the scorers table as to say "I have no reason to worry about your punk ***" Wallace was a punk and always will be. Artest was a head case but he was trying to be good. My favorite part was when JO knocked that guy out that ran up on him in the middle of the court lol.

You have never been in a fight in your life - guarantee it. Whenever someone busts you under the chin and your running backwards and that guy is coming forward - the guy backing up like a little girl is the ***** - :facepalm:

fadedmario
05-21-2011, 03:10 AM
Watch the Video Colts - Ben Wallace don't look like a punk to me.

KniCks4LiFe
05-21-2011, 03:21 AM
Yeh I'd say Ben Wallace was the farthest from being a punk. No one messed w/ Big Ben back then.

knightstemplar
05-21-2011, 03:29 AM
wow i just looked at the roster, damn i think they wouldve if that incident didnt happen

MTar786
05-21-2011, 05:03 AM
Yeh I'd say Ben Wallace was the farthest from being a punk. No one messed w/ Big Ben back then.

i like ron more.. but ben would have kicked his ***. the only guy back then that could have put a whooping on ben was shaq.. and that says a lot. shaq is probably the strongest most intimidating guy in nba history if u make him angry.. id run like there was no tomorrow. karl malone, ben wallace and dwight howard are the only other guys i could see kicking rons *** though. no one else really that comes to mind.

to stay on topic.. that year the pacers had just as good a chance as the spurs did to win it. detroit IMO had no business being in the finals. miami should have won it. they lost wade for that one game which could have been the deciding game had he played

koLohe2133
05-21-2011, 05:45 AM
i like ron more.. but ben would have kicked his ***. the only guy back then that could have put a whooping on ben was shaq.. and that says a lot. shaq is probably the strongest most intimidating guy in nba history if u make him angry.. id run like there was no tomorrow. karl malone, ben wallace and dwight howard are the only other guys i could see kicking rons *** though. no one else really that comes to mind.

to stay on topic.. that year the pacers had just as good a chance as the spurs did to win it. detroit IMO had no business being in the finals. miami should have won it. they lost wade for that one game which could have been the deciding game had he played

But shaq couldn't land his punches....worse aim than Stevie wonder...

Brad miller is still alive

bholly
05-21-2011, 08:46 AM
Since when did it get that nickname?


The year it happened - lol


That's the first time I've heard that.

Everyone I've heard basically just calls it the Pistons Pacers Brawl.

It took a few weeks, right? At first everyone was using the word 'melee'.

That was always a clear example to me of how one or two initial descriptions colour later descriptions and permanently alter interpretations - straight away someone used the words 'melee' and 'haymakers' and, despite the myriad of synonyms, those were the words that everyone used.

Same as how the announcer described the Bynum-Barea foul a few weeks ago as 'bushleague' and for the next few days everyone - espn guys, posters on here, people in the street - were using that term, even though they'd never really use it themselves otherwise. Do a search for 'bushleague' on the NBA forum and the only hits you get are from that thread - there are a million other words that people could've used, and a million other things that could've been described as 'bushleague' - but the word only got used for the thing that had already been described that way. Do the same thing for 'haymakers' and two of the four hits are about Artest in that fight - despite the person never using that word for anything else, and having a million other equally good words to choose from.

People repeat the terms they've already heard for a particular subject, and the result is that the offhand word choices of one or two people soon after an event ends up shaping our whole memory of the event.

/weird off-topic essay that I don't know why I wrote

JasonJohnHorn
05-21-2011, 09:14 AM
Well, here's the thing. They had the TALENT to win, but so do a lot of teams. But it takes more than talent to win, and we all know this. The "Malice at the Palace" did cause an implossion of sorts for the Pacers, but it spoke to larger issues. Artest at the time was a known problem, and he clearly didnt have the ability to control his emotions at the time. Since then the guy has looked himself in the mirror, and made the changes to make himself a better person. And I have a great deal of resepct for him because fo that. Stephan Jackson, at the time, was still not the mature player the Pacers needed. O'Neal, he was mature, his involvement in the melee seemed a matter of reaction and herd behaviour, and I think had that event not occurred, then he would have had the maturity needed to lead the team in the post season.

But that incident was the product of a sympton that was still present within the team with or without the melee. The following season Artest was still a problem.

So I dont think they would have, on the whole, had the mental maturity to win. Miller was a great infuence on these guys, and they may have been able to pull it of. They certainly had the talent to do that, but it takes a mental toughness and maturity to win, and I dont think that team had enough of that that season.

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buch88
05-21-2011, 05:07 PM
This is something I've wondered too over the years. They had their all star leader, Jermaine O'Neal. They had a sidekick all star in Ron Artest. Great supporting cast with guys like Jeff Foster, Reggie Miller, Stephen Jackson, etc. Plenty of veterans and toughness with Dale Davis, Croshere, and Reggie of course. A solid PG in Tinsley. But that's where the question comes in. Tinsley was hurt A LOT. If he was injured at any point in the playoffs, they would have struggled without him. If everyone was healthy and everyone played, they very well could have been in the finals that year.

Stuckey#3
05-21-2011, 06:23 PM
Now, yes hes become too slow to stay in front of SG's and SF's.

6 years ago, he was the best defender in the entire game bar none.

So I'm not really sure what your point is.:confused:

His point is that he didn't watch basketball six years ago so he doesn't know what he is talking about. The Heat have woken the sleeping beast that is the poser superfan. (Which hibernated around the time that MJ retired.)

Stuckey#3
05-21-2011, 06:25 PM
The Pacers were nice back then though. One morale killing blocked shot away from a ring (compliments of Tay).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJTgSlD7i4U

mttwlsn16
05-21-2011, 07:17 PM
that brawl was awesome. start to finish. fans, players, everyone involved

llemon
05-21-2011, 07:23 PM
But shaq couldn't land his punches....worse aim than Stevie wonder...

Brad miller is still alive

If Shaq had swung at the guy that actually fouled him (Oakley, not Miller), Shaq would have been knocked on his azz.

Gators123
05-21-2011, 07:28 PM
Ben Wallace would've KILLED Artest

http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/abc_shove_041120_ssh.jpg

Come on, Wallace had his hands around Artest neck and pushed him, Artest was too scared to even think about laying a hand on Wallace.


I bet if a guy like JJ Barea did that to Artest, he would've acted like a tough guy.

MalZee24
05-22-2011, 03:06 AM
Ben Wallace would've KILLED Artest

http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/abc_shove_041120_ssh.jpg

Come on, Wallace had his hands around Artest neck and pushed him, Artest was too scared to even think about laying a hand on Wallace.


I bet if a guy like JJ Barea did that to Artest, he would've acted like a tough guy.

I don't know about that. I'd put my money on Artest if he and Wallace squared off.

Ty Fast
05-22-2011, 11:39 AM
reggie may have got a ring.

Ty Fast
05-22-2011, 11:40 AM
the pacers were so good to artest after that. they stood behind him 100% and then he stabbed them in the back by demanding a trade. i hate artest.

fadedmario
05-22-2011, 11:59 AM
I don't know about that. I'd put my money on Artest if he and Wallace squared off.

You'd lose that bet :facepalm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvTAJo4tCLc

WATCH THE FIRST 20 SECONDS!!!!!!!!! - Wallace owned Artest

PrettyBoyJ
05-22-2011, 12:11 PM
I blame Ben Wallace he started the whole thing!

IndyRealist
05-22-2011, 12:21 PM
You have never been in a fight in your life - guarantee it. Whenever someone busts you under the chin and your running backwards and that guy is coming forward - the guy backing up like a little girl is the ***** - :facepalm:

Most NBA players back up from a punch, because they can't fight. Regardless, Artest was under orders to not get suspended, and that's why he went and layed on the scorer's table, so there would be no question whether he was escalating the incident or not.

IndyRealist
05-22-2011, 12:25 PM
This is something I've wondered too over the years. They had their all star leader, Jermaine O'Neal. They had a sidekick all star in Ron Artest. Great supporting cast with guys like Jeff Foster, Reggie Miller, Stephen Jackson, etc. Plenty of veterans and toughness with Dale Davis, Croshere, and Reggie of course. A solid PG in Tinsley. But that's where the question comes in. Tinsley was hurt A LOT. If he was injured at any point in the playoffs, they would have struggled without him. If everyone was healthy and everyone played, they very well could have been in the finals that year.

I became a fan of Tinsley during the Brawl year. Along with Fred Jones, Tinsley absolutely put the team on his back with a bunch of bench players and kept it respectable. Shame we let Fred go, I think a lot of things would have turned out differently in '05-'06.

TO to the CHI
05-22-2011, 12:43 PM
You'd lose that bet :facepalm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvTAJo4tCLc

WATCH THE FIRST 20 SECONDS!!!!!!!!! - Wallace owned Artest

Wallace owned Artest, but Artest wasn't fighting back. Your position is that is cause he was scared, but it is equally plausible, if not more plausible, that he knew Wallace would be suspended and saw no reason to get suspended too.

the_jon
05-22-2011, 01:09 PM
Wallace owned Artest, but Artest wasn't fighting back. Your position is that is cause he was scared, but it is equally plausible, if not more plausible, that he knew Wallace would be suspended and saw no reason to get suspended too.
I feel like I'm a pretty tough guy, but I wouldn't be fighting on an NBA court either. Has anyone ever considered the fact that he might have actually used his head for a second? I know it's hard to believe but he probably wanted to do something. Then the fan throws the beer and **** just gets way worse than it should have been. Artest is no pushover.