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SACNYY
05-19-2011, 04:42 PM
Sam Amico is reporting that the Indiana Pacers and Minnesota Timberwolves are discussing a potential trade for the second overall selection in the NBA Draft.

Amico mentions Danny Granger, Ricky Rubio and Michael Beasley as some of the players being discussed between the two teams, so clearly these two teams are looking to make a major deal. If David Kahn deals the second overall pick and gives up Rubio and Beasley in the same trade, he better receive a haul of talent in return or he's going to face some serious backlash from the fans.

http://rotoworld.com/headlines/nba/160651/report-pacers-t-wolves-talking-big-deal

Pretty big trade. Sorry if already posted :confused:

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-19-2011, 04:49 PM
Sam Amico is reporting that the Indiana Pacers and Minnesota Timberwolves are discussing a potential trade for the second overall selection in the NBA Draft.

Amico mentions Danny Granger, Ricky Rubio and Michael Beasley as some of the players being discussed between the two teams, so clearly these two teams are looking to make a major deal. If David Kahn deals the second overall pick and gives up Rubio and Beasley in the same trade, he better receive a haul of talent in return or he's going to face some serious backlash from the fans.

http://rotoworld.com/headlines/nba/160651/report-pacers-t-wolves-talking-big-deal

Pretty big trade. Sorry if already posted :confused:

maybe Kahn wants Granger and Collison:shrug:

Hellcrooner
05-19-2011, 04:54 PM
probably granger and collison to wolves

daboywonder2002
05-19-2011, 04:54 PM
Indiana does not have a single player on their roster better than derrick williams. the t-wolves better not do such a stupid thing

Gators123
05-19-2011, 04:56 PM
maybe Kahn wants Granger and Collison:shrug:

Thats what I was thinking too.

VRP723
05-19-2011, 04:58 PM
Indiana does not have a single player on their roster better than derrick williams. the t-wolves better not do such a stupid thing

Tell em!

Hellcrooner
05-19-2011, 05:00 PM
god here we go again SPanish Pg fighting for starting spot with the damm Tj Ford.....
Im going to get sick.

CB29
05-19-2011, 05:02 PM
god here we go again SPanish Pg fighting for starting spot with the damm Tj Ford.....
Im going to get sick.

Tj ford is a free agent so i doubt the pacers will re-sign him now... he's been on the bench a lot so i doubt he'd want to come back

zo649117
05-19-2011, 05:02 PM
T-Wolves wanting to trade B-Easy after one season? Big mistake.

Master Mind
05-19-2011, 05:03 PM
Indiana does not have a single player on their roster better than derrick williams. the t-wolves better not do such a stupid thing

Granger

Master Mind
05-19-2011, 05:03 PM
T-Wolves wanting to trade B-Easy after one season? Big mistake.

:sigh: After we committed the mistake of trading him in the first place

210Don
05-19-2011, 05:04 PM
horrible why would the pacers make a trade there a good team and only gettin better

jockrider
05-19-2011, 05:04 PM
god here we go again SPanish Pg fighting for starting spot with the damm Tj Ford.....
Im going to get sick.

lol tj ford won't even come close to competing with rubio. he wont even be infront of aj price.

Gibby23
05-19-2011, 05:04 PM
god here we go again SPanish Pg fighting for starting spot with the damm Tj Ford.....
Im going to get sick.

Why would they hand him a starting spot? He hasn't done anything to deserve one.

Master Mind
05-19-2011, 05:05 PM
I bet a deal isn't done between the two

jockrider
05-19-2011, 05:06 PM
T-Wolves wanting to trade B-Easy after one season? Big mistake.

not really he's a scrub.

Colts2180
05-19-2011, 05:09 PM
We better not trade Collison. Granger, Collison, Hibbert, and George all better than any1 at the 2 spot. This draft sucks. id maybe trade Granger if we can get Beasely back but I dont want Rubio. Hes a joke. Id rather just stand pat and let the T Wolves draft a mediocre talent with the 2nd pick. For those who think that Williams is better than Granger who is a allstar player and averages 20ppg each year needs to start ACTUALLY watching basketball.

todu82
05-19-2011, 05:09 PM
Doubt this happens. Especially with Granger being traded as he is Indiana's best player.

llemon
05-19-2011, 05:11 PM
lol tj ford won't even come close to competing with rubio. he wont even be infront of aj price.

TJ's gone, isn't he?

Kyben36
05-19-2011, 05:11 PM
dont trade Rubio, he is gonig to be a stud

papipapsmanny
05-19-2011, 05:11 PM
Wizards jump in on this please

i want beasley and the pick

Colts2180
05-19-2011, 05:12 PM
Only guy id want off of Miny is Love. Otherwise they can keep em lol.

sep11ie
05-19-2011, 05:12 PM
Why does the first poster in threads have to quote the OP? We all know what you are commenting on...

Phenomenonsense
05-19-2011, 05:15 PM
This deal, in my Opinion, is a safety net in case DWilliams is taken first overall. Who do they take? ANOTHER PG? Maybe, but it can't hurt to see what they can get. Btw, The cavs should go 1)Williams 4)Irving/Knight/Walker. Why? It's tough to see the Wolves and Jazz taking Irving with their relatively young PGs. It wouldn't be stupid for them to pick Irving, but you definitely force their hands. You don't do them any favors by taking Irving first. And if they both get cold feet and he slips to 4, then they have him. If not, take your pick of Kemba Walker and Knight.

Eagles4Lyfe
05-19-2011, 05:15 PM
Indian will actually be good from this so i dunno what people are saying..
Rubio
Rush
George
Williams
Hibbert

AIMelo=KillaDUO
05-19-2011, 05:15 PM
lol this isn't a big deal @ all.

Crackadalic
05-19-2011, 05:15 PM
Doesnt the pacers have a lot of caproom this summer?

Sadds The Gr8
05-19-2011, 05:19 PM
this doesn't improve either team alot

MrfadeawayJB
05-19-2011, 05:25 PM
Why are Saddler the gr8 and eaglesbaby4lyfe trying to outdo eachother on who has the most disgusting sig

KnicksR4Real
05-19-2011, 05:26 PM
Trade with the knicks

VCaintdead17
05-19-2011, 05:27 PM
horrible why would the pacers make a trade there a good team and only gettin better

Agreed. We have no viable reason to make a deal like this. This sets us back not only talent wise but expierience wise as well. Bird shouldn't make a trade just to make a trade. We have plenty of youth at every position so we shouldn't be trying to get younger, gathering some vets to add some depth.

fadedmario
05-19-2011, 05:30 PM
This draft is so weak - including Irving. Wonder why he didn't work out today? 2nd pick isn't that special this year

naps
05-19-2011, 05:33 PM
LMAO @ Kahn. He's being stupid as always. If it's the 2nd pick + Beasley + Rubio for Granger and Collison then this might be worst trade in history.

CeeDub15
05-19-2011, 05:35 PM
^lol, its rumored to involve this yrs and/or next years 1st from Indiana as well.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-19-2011, 05:41 PM
Why does the first poster in threads have to quote the OP? We all know what you are commenting on...

U mad?:p

sep11ie
05-19-2011, 05:47 PM
U mad?:p

Dogs get mad, I'm anrgy!:D

daboywonder2002
05-19-2011, 05:50 PM
Granger

Don't be silly.

Master Mind
05-19-2011, 06:09 PM
Don't be silly.

You're silly if you think Williams is better than Granger (who is proven)

Punk
05-19-2011, 06:10 PM
LMAO @ Kahn. He's being stupid as always. If it's the 2nd pick + Beasley + Rubio for Granger and Collison then this might be worst trade in history.

Uhh. The trade isn't even close to being done. Secondly, Beasley is scoring at 20ppg but it was meaningless. Rubio for god sakes, has never played an NBA game and refuses to come. Get off his nuts.

Granger and Collison are way better. Williams is great and all but he is not a proven player either.

Unless, the Wolves want to be a lottery team for the next 5 years they need to make the trade already. Nobody gives a damn about Rubio anymore. He's not even looked upon as a franchise PG.

The Wolves could trade for Iggy too using Wes Johnson.

This is a great move for Minnesota.

PAOboston
05-19-2011, 06:24 PM
dont know why some of you are so down on this deal for minny. they get the best player involved in the deal who's probably a better fit with k.love. and what do they give up? the #2 pick in a really weak draft, a pg who is currently overseas (and prob wont come for maybe another year if he does), and a tweener pf/sf in beasley. and collison is probably a better pg than any of the guys minny has now anyways.

you gotta figure that a 1st rounder goes back to minny from indiana as well.

i guess the question is why would indiana do the deal?

Bornknick73
05-19-2011, 06:40 PM
If it does go through Rubio wont play for the Pacers, flip him to the Knicks for Toney Douglas and a pick. Then draft Kemba Walker.

Kemba
Toney
Beasley
Hansbrough
Hibbert

pretty decent team if you ask me.

Master Mind
05-19-2011, 06:45 PM
If it does go through Rubio wont play for the Pacers, flip him to the Knicks for Toney Douglas and a pick. Then draft Kemba Walker.

Kemba
Toney
Beasley
Hansbrough
Hibbert

pretty decent team if you ask me.

No. Paul George

Bornknick73
05-19-2011, 06:48 PM
No. Paul George

Thats even better. With Toney giving the energy offense off the bench.

Punk
05-19-2011, 06:51 PM
Collison/Ridnour
Wes/Ellington
Granger/Webster
Love/Randolph

If they add a coach like Rick Adelman, I could see that core being a playoff team in the 8th seed next season depending on how the West looks.

DR_1
05-19-2011, 06:52 PM
^ But how would they get Kemba? He'll be gone by the time the Knicks pick.

Hawkeye15
05-19-2011, 06:53 PM
Kahn is infatuated with Rubio, I can't see him part of a deal that includes the #2 pick for anything short of a superstar is not happening. Not that I am rating Rubio and Williams like Kahn may, or some of you, but that is the facts.

I would be fine with a deal that involves the #2 pick, Beasley, Flynn, for Granger, their 1st this year, and their 1st next year, unprotected. But there is no reason for the Wolves to include Rubio, nor any reason for the Pacers to include Collision. What is the point?

I think this trade result will be measured on how good Williams becomes. And honestly, as a Wolves fan, I may be okay with this trade as long as we get their pick unprotected next year. Lets be honest, and no offense Pacer fans, but they were the annual east team that sucked the least and made the playoffs. If the Wolves take their best player, and give back Beasley, and a rookie whose impact won't be made for a couple of years, the Pacers may likely take a step back, giving the Wolves a lottery pick next year to replace the one they have to give away.

I will add this. If Rubio, Beasley, and the #2 are going there, it better be Granger, Collision, and their unprotected 1st next season, as well as their pick this year.

SluggeR
05-19-2011, 06:55 PM
There was talk of Bird being disappointed in Granger after the Bulls series. I think he also said the Pacers couldn't go to the "next level" with Granger as their number 1 option. Maybe he feels Williams has more upside and he would definitely be cheaper than Granger.

Hawkeye15
05-19-2011, 07:00 PM
I have to be honest, I am not a huge fan of a trade involving Granger as the core player for the #2 pick. Even if we get Granger, Collision, their pick this year, and a pick in the 10-14 range, what does that do for the Wolves? Granger has topped out. He is a 3rd tier SF who can score 20 a night on ok efficiency, and Collisions upside is what? Top 15 pg? It makes the Wolves better NEXT year, but what about 3 years from now? They will still be winning 40 games with that roster.

I am not the biggest fan of this trade honestly.

PraiseJesus
05-19-2011, 07:02 PM
This deal is very uninteresting

Master Mind
05-19-2011, 07:11 PM
Beasley & Love seem like a formidable duo imo :shrug:

cardinals1226
05-19-2011, 07:14 PM
If it does go through Rubio wont play for the Pacers, flip him to the Knicks for Toney Douglas and a pick. Then draft Kemba Walker.

Kemba
Toney
Beasley
Hansbrough
Hibbert

pretty decent team if you ask me.

That's stupid. The Pacers wouldn't trade Granger and Collison for Rubio then trade him to the Knicks for Toney Douglas. Landry Fields would become property of the Indiana Pacers. As far as the pick, the Pacers would draft a F/C, most likely Enre Kanter or Tristan Thompson.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-19-2011, 07:20 PM
Beasley & Love seem like a formidable duo imo :shrug:

Beasley is bad, really bad.

6th man would be a perfect role for him.

Mishmin
05-19-2011, 07:21 PM
Kahn needs to wisen up

sixer04fan
05-19-2011, 07:23 PM
Personally, I wouldn't even trade Granger for the second pick in this draft... Let's see what happens here.

cardinals1226
05-19-2011, 07:25 PM
Everyone is overrating Rubio and underrating Granger. The trade isn't perfect, but it's far more fair than either side is given either team credit for.

Granger, Collison, 15th pick, possible 2012 pick for Rubio, Flynn, Beasley, 2nd pick is pretty fair.

Master Mind
05-19-2011, 07:27 PM
Beasley is bad, really bad.

6th man would be a perfect role for him.

:sigh: Would have been perfect for the Heat

sixer04fan
05-19-2011, 07:29 PM
:sigh: Would have been perfect for the Heat

Don't get too picky there, Heat fan. Lol. I heard you have some pretty good players already...

Lake_Show2416
05-19-2011, 07:31 PM
:sigh: Would have been perfect for the Heat

ya but if they didnt trade Beasley they wouldnt b able to sign 3 players to near max contracts, im sure the team is content on where they r now

Master Mind
05-19-2011, 07:36 PM
Don't get too picky there, Heat fan. Lol. I heard you have some pretty good players already...

:p Not picky, I liked Beasley...


ya but if they didnt trade Beasley they wouldnt b able to sign 3 players to near max contracts, im sure the team is content on where they r now

Personally I wouldn't have signed Mike Miller

jockrider
05-19-2011, 07:36 PM
If it does go through Rubio wont play for the Pacers, flip him to the Knicks for Toney Douglas and a pick. Then draft Kemba Walker.

Kemba
Toney
Beasley
Hansbrough
Hibbert

pretty decent team if you ask me.

:facepalm:lol so give up collison/granger for essentially beasly and douglas. why make the trade if he wont play for them lmao:facepalm:

Yunqn
05-19-2011, 07:46 PM
This is def a bad deal of hibberrt is not in this deal.. Obvs a 2 pick means a guy like a granger is involved..


Beasley 2nd Randolph and ? For

Granger Hibbert

The t wolves wait for rubios response and decide to trade him and go with Flynn who can be really ry good in the future if healthy or trade Flynn to a team like Sacramento of another point guard needed team since this draft is horrible and full of low ceiling point guards..

Lake_Show2416
05-19-2011, 07:48 PM
Personally I wouldn't have signed Mike Miller

No that was the 1 Mid level contract that was signed after they got the big 3, where a team can sign 1 players to a mid level if they are over the cap. There was no way the Heat could have kept Beasley & signed all 3 players. If they kept Beasley the cap rules would only allow them to get 2 near max signed... thats pretty much why they practically gave Beasley away for nothing

cardinals1226
05-19-2011, 07:53 PM
This is def a bad deal of hibberrt is not in this deal.. Obvs a 2 pick means a guy like a granger is involved..


Beasley 2nd Randolph and ? For

Granger Hibbert

The t wolves wait for rubios response and decide to trade him and go with Flynn who can be really ry good in the future if healthy or trade Flynn to a team like Sacramento of another point guard needed team since this draft is horrible and full of low ceiling point guards..

Adding Hibbert would make it a terrible deal for the Pacers. The point of getting the 2nd overall would be to get a top F/C in the draft to solidify the PF spot. Granger can be dealt to achieve that because of George's seasonal development. Adding Hibbert would make trading Granger for the second overall pick worthless.

Yunqn
05-19-2011, 07:54 PM
Why does Minnesota. Keep insisting that they don't need a center..

If it is for Collinson and granger ..rubio 2 and beasley and maybe a contract isn't bad..

Only as long as they get love help .. this is a perfect landing spot for Greg oden and minny

People who don't know about basketball say Greg oden is a bust.. check him whn he is healthy.. And minny won't get setback from getting him because even if he doesn't..your still Minnesota..

97NYer
05-19-2011, 07:54 PM
Granger, Hibbert, Collison

for

Beasley, Rubio, 2nd overall pick (Derrick Williams)

For the Pacers
PG:Rubio/Price
SG:George/Jones/Rush
SF:Beasley
PF:Williams/Hansbrough
C:Foster

For the Wolves
PG:Collison/Flynn/Ridnour
SG:Ellington?
SF:Granger
PF:Love
C:Hibbert

cardinals1226
05-19-2011, 08:02 PM
Again, Hibbert is not being traded. The only way the Timberwolves would get Granger, Collison, and Hibbert is if the Pacers got Love. Trading your three best players would require a top player to come back in-exchange. Neither the Timberwolves or Pacers would do that.

FinsSuperBowl
05-19-2011, 08:23 PM
Hibbert/Mcbobs
Hansbrough/ Williams
Beasley/D. Jones/ Posey
George/ Rush/ Stephenson
Flynn/Rubio/Price


Honestly as a Pacers Fan i would like to say a couple things
1) Flynn or Rubio replacing Collison shouldnt be a drop off production wise
2) Granger is a better all around player than Beasley but Beasley is a better scorer
3) Derrick Williams and Beasley (both are considered SF/PF tweeners) they are both better at SF given me the idea that they are both poor mans carmello anthony

Does it makes us better? Not yet but it definitely fills out our roster with good players like a portland team with tons of cap space to get 1 superstar (trade or FA)

at first i wasnt on board with it but now i am, get it done Bird

TomTerrific
05-19-2011, 08:48 PM
Beasley is bad, really bad.

6th man would be a perfect role for him.

Beasley is NOT that bad, If Beasley was Miami's 6th man they would be walking through the playoffs.

Yunqn
05-19-2011, 08:54 PM
Adding Hibbert would make it a terrible deal for the Pacers. The point of getting the 2nd overall would be to get a top F/C in the draft to solidify the PF spot. Granger can be dealt to achieve that because of George's seasonal development. Adding Hibbert would make trading Granger for the second overall pick worthless.


I understand what your trying to say.. But this is reality

You don't build a team to be a bottom seed and hope to atleast win a round in the playoffs..

Indiana knows that there not getting a superstar and being stuck with a guy like granger as your sole shot at winning is why he would be dealt.. the pacers need to start over and go a new route..

You need to try to move away from danny because he's the only way to get a star..
and involving hibbert guarntees you get every piece needed to rebuild once you make that decision

Rubio & d Williams with a load of cap after moving Danny along with the contracts your leTting go is the way...

Indy may get to keep their pick if hibb is dealt.. Then you can move collinson too? U have a future.. Bird knows this team at best is a 7th seed fighting just to get in.. Your suppose to build for a championship.. Not bare wins in the 1st rnd.

Rubio George Williams with Psy t backing up your 4 ..and collinson as a trading piece with cap space to build you team the way you want.. Its exactly what we did (bulls) u build your team the way you want and you build it around rubio or Williams..

Hawkeye15
05-19-2011, 09:30 PM
Everyone is overrating Rubio and underrating Granger. The trade isn't perfect, but it's far more fair than either side is given either team credit for.

Granger, Collison, 15th pick, possible 2012 pick for Rubio, Flynn, Beasley, 2nd pick is pretty fair.

ok, how is Granger underrated? He is a 3rd tier SF who has topped out. 20 ppg on eh efficiency, and an average defender.

Raidaz4Life
05-19-2011, 09:35 PM
ok, how is Granger underrated? He is a 3rd tier SF who has topped out. 20 ppg on eh efficiency, and an average defender.

I would say Granger is an above average defender.... just throwing that out there. I would also say that Granger is a second tier SF not third.

Mishmin
05-19-2011, 10:00 PM
Granger, Hibbert, Collison

for

Beasley, Rubio, 2nd overall pick (Derrick Williams)

For the Pacers
PG:Rubio/Price
SG:George/Jones/Rush
SF:Beasley
PF:Williams/Hansbrough
C:Foster

For the Wolves
PG:Collison/Flynn/Ridnour
SG:Ellington?
SF:Granger
PF:Love
C:Hibbert

Pacers give away their three best players for a bunch of question marks.. Are you serious? Obviously this trade as you put it won't happen. Give Larry Bird a little credit.

Let's put it on record here. Roy Hibbert can extend his apartment lease, he's not going anywhere.

cardinals1226
05-19-2011, 10:05 PM
ok, how is Granger underrated? He is a 3rd tier SF who has topped out. 20 ppg on eh efficiency, and an average defender.

I'm not saying Granger is underrated, I'm saying he is being underrated in this trade. Minnesota fans think they're giving up too much for him. Pacer fans think they are not getting enough. Personally, a Pacer fan obviously, I think the deal is pretty fair. The best trade for the Pacers or the Timberwolves, no, but it is fair.

unleashthebeast
05-19-2011, 10:12 PM
No that was the 1 Mid level contract that was signed after they got the big 3, where a team can sign 1 players to a mid level if they are over the cap. There was no way the Heat could have kept Beasley & signed all 3 players. If they kept Beasley the cap rules would only allow them to get 2 near max signed... thats pretty much why they practically gave Beasley away for nothing

false, millers contract number was basically the same as beez is. the big 3 signed less than max contracts so they could still sign haslem and miller without going over the cap. and besides, we didnt get a MLE last year because we started out under the cap..... but yeah i wish we never gave beez away, he wouldve been a damn good 6th man for us :sigh:

Lil Half Dead
05-19-2011, 10:15 PM
god here we go again SPanish Pg fighting for starting spot with the damm Tj Ford.....
Im going to get sick.

Ford's a free agent. A.J. Price is the backup PG for Indiana, And a pretty damn solid one at that.

Hawkeye15
05-19-2011, 10:31 PM
I would say Granger is an above average defender.... just throwing that out there. I would also say that Granger is a second tier SF not third.

you are pointing out particulars, so I don't care to argue that.

1st tier- LeBron, Durant
2nd tier- Melo, Pierce
3rd tier- Iggy, Granger, Deng, G Wallace

His defense is possibly above average, but nothing special

Lil Half Dead
05-19-2011, 10:33 PM
you are pointing out particulars, so I don't care to argue that.

1st tier- LeBron, Durant
2nd tier- Melo, Pierce
3rd tier- Iggy, Granger, Deng, G Wallace

His defense is possibly above average, but nothing special

Nahh you had it right, Granger's defense is nothing to get excited about.

Hawkeye15
05-19-2011, 10:40 PM
I'm not saying Granger is underrated, I'm saying he is being underrated in this trade. Minnesota fans think they're giving up too much for him. Pacer fans think they are not getting enough. Personally, a Pacer fan obviously, I think the deal is pretty fair. The best trade for the Pacers or the Timberwolves, no, but it is fair.

The #2 pick, Beasley, and Rubio is indeed too much to give up for Granger, Collison, and two picks in the teens. Obviously, if Williams turns out to be a role player, my opinion turns, but that isn't the point. Beasley is not as good as Granger, but he nearly replaces the production. Add to the fact that Granger hasn't improved at all in 3 years, and he is starting to be that guy whose value is highest now, instead of down the road. Rubio is a super hyped prospect. Collison has a ceiling of what? Top 10-15 PG? The Pacers pick this year is #14, which is garbage in this draft. Their pick next season, best case for the Wolves, is a lottery pick that has a very low chance of being top 3.

Chronz
05-19-2011, 11:18 PM
Im not sure what people are basing their bickering off of because its a bunch of unproven players.

cardinals1226
05-19-2011, 11:22 PM
The #2 pick, Beasley, and Rubio is indeed too much to give up for Granger, Collison, and two picks in the teens. Obviously, if Williams turns out to be a role player, my opinion turns, but that isn't the point. Beasley is not as good as Granger, but he nearly replaces the production. Add to the fact that Granger hasn't improved at all in 3 years, and he is starting to be that guy whose value is highest now, instead of down the road. Rubio is a super hyped prospect. Collison has a ceiling of what? Top 10-15 PG? The Pacers pick this year is #14, which is garbage in this draft. Their pick next season, best case for the Wolves, is a lottery pick that has a very low chance of being top 3.

Are you kidding me? No it's not. You're asking the Pacers to trade half their team's production for an inconsistent forward and two players who haven't even played in the NBA yet. You're proving my point when I said the Timberwolves fans are expecting the moon and more for Rubio and Beasley.

ramz.n
05-19-2011, 11:29 PM
granger and hibbert the other way for 2nd, beasley and rubio??

t wolves
pg..flynn
sg..johnson
sf..granger
pf..love
c.. hibbert

indiana
pg..collison
sg..george
sf..williams
pf..beasly
c..hansbrough

Lil Half Dead
05-19-2011, 11:47 PM
granger and hibbert the other way for 2nd, beasley and rubio??

t wolves
pg..flynn
sg..johnson
sf..granger
pf..love
c.. hibbert

indiana
pg..collison
sg..george
sf..williams
pf..beasly
c..hansbrough

The Pacers would get bullied so hard on the boards. Hibbert probably won't be going anywhere, they are very high on him.

Hawkeye15
05-20-2011, 01:33 AM
Are you kidding me? No it's not. You're asking the Pacers to trade half their team's production for an inconsistent forward and two players who haven't even played in the NBA yet. You're proving my point when I said the Timberwolves fans are expecting the moon and more for Rubio and Beasley.

nope. Convince me I am wrong....

PraiseJesus
05-20-2011, 01:39 AM
2 non playoff teams make a trade.....

wake me up when the lockout is over.

alencp3
05-20-2011, 01:53 AM
do it... so clippers pick from minny next year, would be even higher :D

jrm2054
05-20-2011, 01:59 AM
Rubio probaly said he wont play in minni so they wanna move him

THE MTL
05-20-2011, 02:05 AM
Usually when Top picks get traded its for an allstar veteran. Thats how these trades usually work.

numba1CHANGsta
05-20-2011, 02:10 AM
most likely Granger for 2nd pick straight up

Rubio
Johnson
Granger
Beasley
Love

playoffs?

ChiTownPacerFan
05-20-2011, 02:19 AM
Granger, Collison, Stevenson and the 15th pick for Beasley, Rubio, Ridnour, Tolliver and #2 . Get it done Bird!

Rubio / Ridnour / Price
George / D. Jones
Derrick Williams / Rush /
Beasley / Hansbrough
Hibbert / Foster / Tolliver

+ a lot of money in free agency = awesome future.

Purple&Gold24
05-20-2011, 02:46 AM
Wow that would be great for the wolves

Savage Sunday
05-20-2011, 02:57 AM
most likely Granger for 2nd pick straight up

Rubio
Johnson
Granger
Beasley
Love

playoffs?

Lottery.

Worst defensive team in the league by a wide margin.

Cal827
05-20-2011, 03:03 AM
Granger for the 2nd pick is the only one that would make sense for both teams. Granger might be enough to help the Wolves improve substantially, and it allows the Pacers to rid a bad contract as well as continue thier youth movement.... If its:

Granger for 2nd-- Fair Trade
Granger for 2nd, Beasley, Rubio-- Really stupid for Minnesota.
Granger/Collison for 2nd, Beasley, Rubio--- Dumb for Indiana. The team young core has progressed together, they should wait at least another year to truly see what they have. There's no telling that Rubio would actually work out to be a good pg.

Minnesota has to do something though They Need to make the playoffs and avoid the lottery. Kahn shouldn't have called out Stern for rigging the draft lottery, cause now we know that if they end up in the lottery next year, Stern will automatically award them the first overall pick (Which Belongs to the Clippers). Watch, they'll just miss the playoffs at 41-41, be positioned at 14 in the lotto and end up moving up to 1st overall lol. Which would help stern take out two birds with one stone. One, he would be able to exact revenge on him and two, he would be able to correct not placing a first overall pick in a Basketball market from this year... and we know once that Happens, we'll see Stern mouthing to Kahn "Karma's a B****" lol :facepalm:

John Walls Era
05-20-2011, 03:12 AM
If Kahn pulls this trade off: Collison and Granger for Rubio, Beas and pick; then I think we need to start giving him some credit. Beasley (decent scorer, but thats it) + unknown product + high draft pick for a weak class (Kyrie Irving is ok, but not nearly as good as any of those top PGs in the last 5 drafts-- 1 or 2 AS appearance potential) for a proven PG and AS scorer? Thats a great deal for the T'Wolves.

The_Jamal
05-20-2011, 03:28 AM
most likely Granger for 2nd pick straight up

Rubio
Johnson
Granger
Beasley
Love

playoffs?

Nope, they'd get **** on defensively. they'd be fun to watch on offense though

IUBball22
05-20-2011, 03:34 AM
Pacers fan here. I dont like this trade as it stands for either team. If we are giving up Granger and Collison, then Id want Randolph and the 2nd pick in the deal. Im thinking something along these lines

Granger, Collison, Stephenson, #15 pick, 2012 1st RD pick for #2, Randolph, Flynn & Beasley.

Minnesota keeps Rubio. Minn gets Granger (20,5,3 a night) and Collison (good, but not great PG) to groom Rubio. Minn could use the 15th pick to get one of the Morris twins or Kenneth Faried to replace Randolph. And they get our pick in next years draft plus a talented but bonehead Stephenson to sweeten the deal.

Pacers draft Brandon Knight with the #2 to get their PG. They get Randolph as an athletic and developing PF. Plus, we get Flynn and Beasley as depth. Flynn would be back-up PG while beasley would be sixth man type off the bench as SF and PF.

To me, Minn wins by keeping Rubio and getting Granger, Collison, and the 2 1st rd picks. Pacers win by getting Knight who is a true playmaker, Randolph (who has all-star potential) and serious depth on the bench with Flynn and Beasley.

I think this is fair and beneficial for both teams....Now everyone feel free to barrage me with a ton of names.

ChiTownPacerFan
05-20-2011, 03:41 AM
Granger for the 2nd pick is the only one that would make sense for both teams. Granger might be enough to help the Wolves improve substantially, and it allows the Pacers to rid a bad contract as well as continue thier youth movement.... If its:

Granger for 2nd-- Fair Trade
Granger for 2nd, Beasley, Rubio-- Really stupid for Minnesota.
Granger/Collison for 2nd, Beasley, Rubio--- Dumb for Indiana. The team young core has progressed together, they should wait at least another year to truly see what they have. There's no telling that Rubio would actually work out to be a good pg.

How is that dumb for Indiana? Granger for Beasley is pretty much a wash... Think about it. They are both scorers who aren't going to contribute much else. Beasley shot 45% (19 ppg) last year to Granger's 42% (20 ppg). Neither is a good first option, but they are both solid #2's.

After that the trade is Collison for the #2 pick and Rubio. That's the kind of trade that could easily be highway robbery down the line. Rubio could potentially be better than Collison. If he can just be as good, that trade amounts to Derrick Williams for nothing. Yes please!

ChiTownPacerFan
05-20-2011, 03:43 AM
Pacers fan here. I dont like this trade as it stands for either team. If we are giving up Granger and Collison, then Id want Randolph and the 2nd pick in the deal. Im thinking something along these lines

Granger, Collison, Stephenson, #15 pick, 2012 1st RD pick for #2, Randolph, Flynn & Beasley.

Minnesota keeps Rubio. Minn gets Granger (20,5,3 a night) and Collison (good, but not great PG) to groom Rubio. Minn could use the 15th pick to get one of the Morris twins or Kenneth Faried to replace Randolph. And they get our pick in next years draft plus a talented but bonehead Stephenson to sweeten the deal.

Pacers draft Brandon Knight with the #2 to get their PG. They get Randolph as an athletic and developing PF. Plus, we get Flynn and Beasley as depth. Flynn would be back-up PG while beasley would be sixth man type off the bench as SF and PF.

To me, Minn wins by keeping Rubio and getting Granger, Collison, and the 2 1st rd picks. Pacers win by getting Knight who is a true playmaker, Randolph (who has all-star potential) and serious depth on the bench with Flynn and Beasley.

I think this is fair and beneficial for both teams....Now everyone feel free to barrage me with a ton of names.

:speechless: You would rather have Flynn and Randolph than Rubio. At least Rubio is still an unknown, we know Flynn is Garbage.

Wisdom Listens
05-20-2011, 04:10 AM
You would rather have Flynn and Randolph than Rubio. At least Rubio is still an unknown, we know Flynn is Garbage.

We know Flynn is 22 coming off a season where he was never able to fully recover from missing training camp and the first third of the schedule. He looked decent in his rookie year and I think if he can stay healthy he will be productive for whatever team he ends up playing for next season.

ChiTownPacerFan
05-20-2011, 04:20 AM
We know Flynn is 22 coming off a season where he was never able to fully recover from missing training camp and the first third of the schedule. He looked decent in his rookie year and I think if he can stay healthy he will be productive for whatever team he ends up playing for next season.

Granted he's still young, but the guy is averaging 4 assists per game and shooting 40% from the field. Also, he's never had a double double in his career. Oh, and his career assist to turnover ratio is lower than Monta Ellis'. Is that enough, should I keep going?

Law25
05-20-2011, 04:57 AM
god here we go again SPanish Pg fighting for starting spot with the damm Tj Ford.....
Im going to get sick.

:facepalm: Should Rubio start because he's Spanish? If Tj were to stay the position should go to the player who out performs the other. The only leg up Tj would have is at that position you have to be able to run the coaches offense and Tj already knows it. Personaly I think Rubio would beat Ford out for the position because of his passing ability. Fords an better scorer and they in my opinion but are liabilities on defense. My only concern with Rubio is his outside shooting.

JNA17
05-20-2011, 05:24 AM
Ok lets be clear on a couple of things.

Micheal Beasley is nothing special, he's not garbage or a scrub but he's just a decent scorer and that's ot. Moving on.

Rubio...talk about a total ****ing mystery with this kid. He's an unknown but we cant deny that his value is still really high. If hypothetically the wolves said that they would look to trade Rubio, you would see a lot of teams coming at the wolves with offers. Including teams in dire need of a PG like ny (when billups leaves next year) or LA. You would be a fool to think otherwise.

Danny Granger. A solid scorer with above average defense. If pacers even mentioned his name in the trade rumor then it's obvious that they think he is not cabable of leading their franchise.

Lastly, the number 2 pick (most likely derrik williams). Despite the draft not being great this year, teams would still love to have a top 5 pick in the draft. Even if it cost them a proven all star caliber player.

So I look at this as 1 unproven but highly valued player (Rubio), a highly valued lotto pick, and a decent scorer for a solid scorer and above average player (all star before even), possibly Darren collison who has not had much progress since his 2nd half year with the hornets, and possibly a pick for next year.

Value wise, the wolves lose that part of the deal. Talent wise, I would say wolves get the better part (well obviously because of granger) but I think they should look elsewhere to find better offers. You know...like the grizzlies...for Rudy Gay!!! Perfect chance to do that now

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-20-2011, 05:42 AM
2 non playoff teams make a trade.....

wake me up when the lockout is over.

:facepalm:

-Kobe24-TJ19-
05-20-2011, 05:51 AM
.

DodgerBulls
05-20-2011, 06:12 AM
Wizards jump in on this please

i want beasley and the pick

so you want to trade Wall away?

AI
05-20-2011, 07:38 AM
Granger, Hibbert for Beasley, #2 Pick and Randolph

daleja424
05-20-2011, 08:13 AM
This is WAY premature.

a) There is a month left in the season
b) There is no cba once this season ends and teams won't be able to make moves until there is
c) Once there is a CBA the rules could be entirely different

wjmoffatt
05-20-2011, 08:16 AM
Pacers shouldn't give up Collison!

pebloemer
05-20-2011, 08:50 AM
This is WAY premature.

a) There is a month left in the season
b) There is no cba once this season ends and teams won't be able to make moves until there is
c) Once there is a CBA the rules could be entirely different

But the CBA is still going, and I believe teams that are eliminated from contention are allowed to make deals (just not including players who don't have guaranteed contracts for the following year). Couldn't teams make deals prior to the current CBA ending?

Muttman73
05-20-2011, 09:02 AM
If Indiana and Minnesota made a trade in the woods would anybody hear it?

eugene
05-20-2011, 09:03 AM
T-Wolves adding Rubio, some depth on the bench and they are playoff team. Why they should trade their best players?

WSU Tony
05-20-2011, 09:14 AM
Granger, Hibbert for Beasley, #2 Pick and Randolph

Wolves say hell yeah.

daleja424
05-20-2011, 09:48 AM
But the CBA is still going, and I believe teams that are eliminated from contention are allowed to make deals (just not including players who don't have guaranteed contracts for the following year). Couldn't teams make deals prior to the current CBA ending?

I don't think so... I mean the trade deadline has passed and the season isn't over so I don't think they can trade. And once this season ends the CBa doesn't apply anymore. I may be wrong, but that is my understanding.

ChitownSports16
05-20-2011, 09:55 AM
horrible why would the pacers make a trade there a good team and only gettin better

This! T-Wolves get better

HouRealCoach
05-20-2011, 10:00 AM
This is ****ing stupid for the Wolves and Pacers... Pacers are on the rise and Wolves need to see what Rubio has first they have a chance to build around Love, Beasley, Rubio, Randolph, (Williams or Kanter)

jtsunami
05-20-2011, 10:03 AM
I love this trade for the Pacers.

Pacers need a star to put them in contention because Granger and Collison clearly aren't stars. They are both really good role players. Pacers get a scorer to fill the load left by Granger and a PG everyone thought would be the next Jason Kidd along with a pick that could net them Derrick Williams. Getting rid of Granger also gets them cap space to potentially grab a big FA in 2012.

If there is a Pacers fan who says they don't like this, they are nuts.

jtsunami
05-20-2011, 10:05 AM
If Indiana and Minnesota made a trade in the woods would anybody hear it?

:laugh:

pebloemer
05-20-2011, 10:28 AM
I don't think so... I mean the trade deadline has passed and the season isn't over so I don't think they can trade. And once this season ends the CBa doesn't apply anymore. I may be wrong, but that is my understanding.


88. When can't a player be traded? Can players be given "no-trade" clauses in their contracts?
A "no-trade" clause can be negotiated into an individual contract if the player has been in the NBA for at least eight seasons, and has played for the team with which he is signing for at least four seasons. They don't have to be the immediately prior four seasons -- for example, Horace Grant got a no-trade clause from Orlando when he signed with them in 2001. He had played for Orlando for four seasons, but had played for Seattle and Los Angeles in the interim. Very few players actually have one of these no-trade provisions. Otherwise, individually negotiated contracts may not contain no-trade clauses. The no-trade clause prevents the team from making a trade involving the player without the player's consent.

In addition, teams cannot trade players under the following circumstances:

For two months after receiving the player in trade or claiming him off waivers, if the player's salary is aggregated with the salaries of other players. However, the team is free to trade the player either by himself (not packaged with other players), or without combining his salary with other salaries to acquire a more expensive player, immediately. This restriction applies only to teams over the salary cap. (Also see question number 75.)
When the trading deadline has passed.

Teams are free to make trades again once their season has ended, but cannot trade players whose contracts are ending or could end due to an option or ETO.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q88

Also, the CBA expires at the end of June.


The current Collective Bargaining Agreement is set to expire June 30.

http://www.nba.com/news/cba_2005.html

daleja424
05-20-2011, 10:38 AM
Okay. That makes zero sense... But okay

roygconner
05-20-2011, 10:52 AM
Does nobody remember when Seattle traded Ray Allen to Boston ON DRAFT NIGHT. Players get traded all of the time during the draft. The NBA's draft is different then the NFL's. In the NBA the draft is the last event before the league closes the calendar year for their business. In the NFL the draft is at the beginning of the calendar year.

pebloemer
05-20-2011, 11:14 AM
Okay. That makes zero sense... But okay

With an expiring CBA, there is definitely more uncertainty with any possible trades. But if teams are able to draft prior to an expiring CBA, they should be able to trade as well, as draft day yields opportunities.

daleja424
05-20-2011, 11:26 AM
I guess. It just seems stupid to allow some Player transactions and not others...

daboywonder2002
05-20-2011, 02:12 PM
if anyone thinks granger is better or gonna be better than williams. you are fooling yourself. granger has tapped out. Williams has way more upside and this kid will be a star. I dont care how proven granger is. You aren't gonna be good for awhile. so you need to take the star with more upside

WSU Tony
05-20-2011, 02:26 PM
Granger hasn't improved in any of the last 3 seasons.... I'm just saying. He's maxed.

WSU Tony
05-20-2011, 02:28 PM
Players can be traded until this CBA expires. We are still in the current CBA and players can be traded. I think it remains this way until the end of the month? :shrug:

Jetsguy
05-20-2011, 02:33 PM
I always go with the proven commodity over the "upside" of an unproven player any day, especially when the commodity plays at or near an all-star level.

Williams may have great potential but so did Beasley (even moreso) and I wouldnt take him over granger...

jtsunami
05-20-2011, 02:34 PM
Ya, I think Pacers fans are crazy if you don't like that trade. It's not even a guarantee you will be worse next year. Plus you get even more under the cap.

Punk
05-20-2011, 03:09 PM
Granger hasn't improved in any of the last 3 seasons.... I'm just saying. He's maxed.

...And they made the playoffs and took the Bulls to their limit. :facepalm:

topdog
05-20-2011, 03:22 PM
...And they made the playoffs and took the Bulls to their limit. :facepalm:

And they have other players...? If Granger is the same but a guy like Hibbert improves and you get some nice play from Collison and George then the team should be better, but it's still a losing team and it says nothing about Granger improving.

FinsSuperBowl
05-20-2011, 03:23 PM
Granted he's still young, but the guy is averaging 4 assists per game and shooting 40% from the field. Also, he's never had a double double in his career. Oh, and his career assist to turnover ratio is lower than Monta Ellis'. Is that enough, should I keep going?
PG's dont have good numbers when in the triangle offense (check derrick fisher)

saucy1
05-20-2011, 03:24 PM
anyone else think rubio is goin to be garbage

CeeDub15
05-20-2011, 03:35 PM
^your just saying that because you hear people bashing the kid all the time because he hasnt officially came over yet. Watch some highlights of the kid against team USA, he has things to work on obviously, most players do when they first come into the league and are 20 yrs old. There is a reason why he is really hyped, and there is a reason he was chose top 5, and would have been selected higher if he was foresure coming over the season he was selected.

HouRealCoach
05-20-2011, 04:24 PM
I heard in the wolves forum that rubio to timberwolves is official

Knickrocketsfan
05-20-2011, 04:49 PM
if the wolves can get granger, hibbert and collision, it would be a steal

MinVikesFan
05-20-2011, 04:54 PM
anyone else think rubio is goin to be garbage

me!

cardinals1226
05-20-2011, 05:13 PM
if the wolves can get granger, hibbert and collision, it would be a steal

Too bad the Timberwolves would be without Kevin Love, Anthony Randolph, and Johnny Flynn.

MrfadeawayJB
05-20-2011, 05:49 PM
Ya, I think Pacers fans are crazy if you don't like that trade. It's not even a guarantee you will be worse next year. Plus you get even more under the cap.

epic sig dude

Hawkeye15
05-20-2011, 07:44 PM
...And they made the playoffs and took the Bulls to their limit. :facepalm:

and they won 37 games, and have just as good of a chance being in the lottery next year as being the annual "east team that sucked the least and made the playoffs".

I am not for this trade for the Wolves at all. It gives them a slight upgrade at SF, an Collison is nice, but probably no better than a top 10-12 PG in his prime. Its too much for the Wolves. Sure they will win 30 games or more next year. But what about 3 years from now? They will still be in that .500 area with this trade. Being a .500 small market team is the kiss of death most times.

No thanks.

Hawkeye15
05-20-2011, 07:47 PM
Too bad the Timberwolves would be without Kevin Love, Anthony Randolph, and Johnny Flynn.

Love would never be included in a trade going to Indy. He is much better than any player you have, so it wouldn't make any sense for the Wolves.

Astronaut
05-20-2011, 08:10 PM
Indiana does not have a single player on their roster better than derrick williams. the t-wolves better not do such a stupid thing


Paul George, Danny Granger, Collison ...

I mean, its not like Derrick has played a single NBA minute..

cardinals1226
05-20-2011, 08:18 PM
Love would never be included in a trade going to Indy. He is much better than any player you have, so it wouldn't make any sense for the Wolves.

You're right, but there is a far better chance that Love is a Pacer than the Timberwolves ever sniffing a chance of getting Granger, Collison, Hibbert, and two first round picks. I'm loving the homerism that you're clearly presenting. Anything less than farm is too little for anyone on the T-wolves, but as you said they're still a 30 win team.

Tony_Starks
05-20-2011, 08:21 PM
Im sure there are more people involved in the deal if it is legit. I really can't see the Wolves going through this big debacle to get Rubio just to trade him, and to another small market team at that. Makes no sense. If Im a Wolves fan though any trade that involves Kahn NOT having to select the number #2 pick would make me elated! Plus they're already really young anyway so besides the fact that Kahn would more than likely completely goof it up they really could use some vets to balance it out.

Kashmir13579
05-20-2011, 08:40 PM
does anyone think this would put the Twolves in the conversation for the playoffs? i don't see this trade making either club that much better.

Hawkeye15
05-20-2011, 08:43 PM
You're right, but there is a far better chance that Love is a Pacer than the Timberwolves ever sniffing a chance of getting Granger, Collison, Hibbert, and two first round picks. I'm loving the homerism that you're clearly presenting. Anything less than farm is too little for anyone on the T-wolves, but as you said they're still a 30 win team.

how am I presenting homerism? Granger has a falling PER, and win share number since his 08-09' campaign, and was at his peak 3 years ago. How is he worth the #2 pick, along with Ricky Rubio?

And yes, Love is clearly better than Granger is. I have no interest at all in Collison, I would love Hibbert, but the Pacers overvalue him, so it wouldn't be a fair trade going after him.

You are being a homer here man. Granger is a 4-5th tier SF, and has shown everyone that he is not a #1 option on a great team in the slightest.

Kashmir13579
05-20-2011, 08:47 PM
Why do the Wolves even want to trade Ricky? they've held out with his rights for this long and it actually looks like Ricky will sign with them. Have they given up hope on seeing him in a Twolves jersey or are they just convinced he'll never amount to the type of player Granger is?

cardinals1226
05-20-2011, 08:49 PM
how am I presenting homerism? Granger has a falling PER, and win share number since his 08-09' campaign, and was at his peak 3 years ago. How is he worth the #2 pick, along with Ricky Rubio?

And yes, Love is clearly better than Granger is. I have no interest at all in Collison, I would love Hibbert, but the Pacers overvalue him, so it wouldn't be a fair trade going after him.

You are being a homer here man. Granger is a 4-5th tier SF, and has shown everyone that he is not a #1 option on a great team in the slightest.

No, Timberwolves fans like yourself think that Granger, Collison, and two first round picks is not enough for Beasley, Flynn, Rubio, and a first round pick. That's the point. It's clear that is your position and continue to be a hypocrite when you say Pacer fans are overvaluing Granger then doing the exact same thing with Rubio.

Hawkeye15
05-20-2011, 09:03 PM
No, Timberwolves fans like yourself think that Granger, Collison, and two first round picks is not enough for Beasley, Flynn, Rubio, and a first round pick. That's the point. It's clear that is your position and continue to be a hypocrite when you say Pacer fans are overvaluing Granger then doing the exact same thing with Rubio.

Please don't group me in with homer fans. I am anything but. But the #2 pick, and Rubio alone are worth more going forward, than a 4th tier PF who peaked 3 years ago.

How are you NOT overrating Granger? What has he done? Average 20+ a night on above average efficiency? Isn't he basically an older Rudy Gay?

You must not venture out into the NBA forums with this tude bro. You will find fewer who are rational and rate players accordingly.

Your pick this year is 14. What value does that have? Your pick next year if this trade goes thru is probably 10-12. What value does that have? The Wolves get a topped out SF who goes for 22 ppg with above average efficiency, and a PG whose ceiling is outside the top 10 PG's in the NBA. Derrick Williams and Ricky Rubio may indeed never be as good as those players, but their "value" is indeed higher at the moment. That is how value works. Why do you think Bird would entertain trading Granger? Because he can't be a lead guy on a great team. How does it help the Wolves to trade for a player like that?

Point is, this doesn't do crap for either team going forward.

Hawkeye15
05-20-2011, 09:05 PM
Why do the Wolves even want to trade Ricky? they've held out with his rights for this long and it actually looks like Ricky will sign with them. Have they given up hope on seeing him in a Twolves jersey or are they just convinced he'll never amount to the type of player Granger is?

that my friend is the biggest reason this deal would not go down. Kahn is infatuated with Rubio. He isn't trading him in a deal like this.

If the #2 is being made available for Granger, that is pretty much the principal of it unless there are throw in's.

topdog
05-20-2011, 09:18 PM
The question I pose as a Wolves fan is: why would the Pacers do this (trade their "franchise player")? My answer: they know they are not good enough and they know Granger isn't good enough.

It seems like Indy thinks Paul George can more-or-less replace Granger. Hibbert is their new cornerstone. Both those guys are young and so the Pacers could just go into rebuild, get some more star power in Williams and wait out on Rubio who projects to be the better PG long-term.

Why should my Wolves, already in rebuild, trade futures for a good point guard and a small forward who is almost 30?

cardinals1226
05-20-2011, 09:22 PM
The question I pose as a Wolves fan is: why would the Pacers do this (trade their "franchise player")? My answer: they know they are not good enough and they know Granger isn't good enough.

It seems like Indy thinks Paul George can more-or-less replace Granger. Hibbert is their new cornerstone. Both those guys are young and so the Pacers could just go into rebuild, get some more star power in Williams and wait out on Rubio who projects to be the better PG long-term.

Why should my Wolves, already in rebuild, trade futures for a good point guard and a small forward who is almost 30?

He turned 28 exactly a month ago. :-/

jimbobjarree
05-20-2011, 09:41 PM
don't do it wolves, keep the pick and draft kanter. Everybody happy.

Tony_Starks
05-20-2011, 09:43 PM
The question I pose as a Wolves fan is: why would the Pacers do this (trade their "franchise player")? My answer: they know they are not good enough and they know Granger isn't good enough.

It seems like Indy thinks Paul George can more-or-less replace Granger. Hibbert is their new cornerstone. Both those guys are young and so the Pacers could just go into rebuild, get some more star power in Williams and wait out on Rubio who projects to be the better PG long-term.

Why should my Wolves, already in rebuild, trade futures for a good point guard and a small forward who is almost 30?


I think the fact that Grainger really let them down in the playoffs was the end for him. He didn't really make a difference at all.

On your Wolves side hey man you know the deal. Kahn, thats all that needs to be said.....

topdog
05-20-2011, 10:00 PM
He turned 28 exactly a month ago. :-/

Yeah, so on the youngest team in the league, you are going to bring in a 28 year old as your star knowing you are still a couple years away from contending?

I would say 28 is almost 30. Just like if you were 22 you'd be just into your 20s. More to the point, he isn't going to drastically improve. He is what he is and that's good, not "top" anything or "great." Why trade for an older SF who was a teens pick in a relatively weak draft when you can draft the concensus top SF in another weak draft? Now offer Hibbert and we can talk #2.

topdog
05-20-2011, 10:06 PM
I think the fact that Grainger really let them down in the playoffs was the end for him. He didn't really make a difference at all.

On your Wolves side hey man you know the deal. Kahn, thats all that needs to be said.....

Kahn, what of it? He essentially denied the extent of the deal or at least his interest in it - "we're supposed to include Love too, right." And he has made mostly good trades - AR for Brewer and Koufos, Beasley for 2 2nd rounders (even though I don't like him), Babbitt for Webster, Foye and Miller for Rubio, ect.

Now, I really would like to see us draft Williams or at least get a good C in return. The thing that concerns me is Kahn's interest in Granger last year and seeming lack of interest in drafting 2nd.

Hawkeye15
05-21-2011, 01:27 AM
I think the fact that Grainger really let them down in the playoffs was the end for him. He didn't really make a difference at all.

On your Wolves side hey man you know the deal. Kahn, thats all that needs to be said.....

please explain why you think Kahn is so inept

Chronz
05-21-2011, 08:10 AM
please explain why you think Kahn is so inept
Do you only defend Kahn because hes your teams GM?

DR_1
05-21-2011, 10:16 AM
This trade would be great for both teams! Pacers get a potential star, and T-Wolves get another option for K-Love.

CeeDub15
05-21-2011, 12:13 PM
He turned 28 exactly a month ago. :-/

lol yeah, which is pretty close to 30.

CeeDub15
05-21-2011, 12:18 PM
Do you only defend Kahn because hes your teams GM?

No I think Wolves fans defend him because we see what he has done to our team, give us hope and a ton of potential to succeed, which is a helluva lot better than what we had before he got here. People make fun of him and say he is a bad gm because sometimes he doesnt say the smartest things to the media, and made a mistake or 2 in the draft, thats why he hired Ronzone to help him out drafting. Its annoying when ppl post pointless stuff like "KAHHHHHHHHHHHN". Its just stupid, he has got us a ton of young plaeyrs with potential for players that we didnt think fit what we needed. Brewer and Koufos for AR (a young 21 yr old that has shown very good potential, and if he can get bigger he can play C for us), Miller and Foye for Rubio essentially, 2 2nd round picks for Beasley who i think can be a good 6th man.

KnicksorBust
05-21-2011, 04:01 PM
No I think Wolves fans defend him because we see what he has done to our team, give us hope and a ton of potential to succeed, which is a helluva lot better than what we had before he got here. People make fun of him and say he is a bad gm because sometimes he doesnt say the smartest things to the media, and made a mistake or 2 in the draft, thats why he hired Ronzone to help him out drafting. Its annoying when ppl post pointless stuff like "KAHHHHHHHHHHHN". Its just stupid, he has got us a ton of young plaeyrs with potential for players that we didnt think fit what we needed. Brewer and Koufos for AR (a young 21 yr old that has shown very good potential, and if he can get bigger he can play C for us), Miller and Foye for Rubio essentially, 2 2nd round picks for Beasley who i think can be a good 6th man.

Make you the worst team in the NBA. That's why he gets mocked. If somehow the T-Wolves got Hibbert out of this deal I'd be impressed. Finally a real center to play next to Kevin Love. If Marc Gasol-Zach Randolph can work out West... Hibbert-Love could be a dynamic duo. Either way I like that he's shopping it. It's a weak draft and the last thing the Wolves need is more young talent. They need some real players.

Hawkeye15
05-21-2011, 04:06 PM
Do you only defend Kahn because hes your teams GM?

nope. I understand the man comes off as arrogant, and the Flynn pick was out of this world bad. But he has won all his trades, and turned a team that was bloated with mid 20's players with zip potential, and a team with no financial flexibility, into a team with youth, and tons of flexibility to flip players and move contracts.

I defend him because the main forums still pulls the PG crap, and has called him inept since the day he took the job, while not actually looking at what he has done in detail.

Hawkeye15
05-21-2011, 04:10 PM
Make you the worst team in the NBA. That's why he gets mocked. If somehow the T-Wolves got Hibbert out of this deal I'd be impressed. Finally a real center to play next to Kevin Love. If Marc Gasol-Zach Randolph can work out West... Hibbert-Love could be a dynamic duo. Either way I like that he's shopping it. It's a weak draft and the last thing the Wolves need is more young talent. They need some real players.

you are giving the majority of the posters in the NBA forums way too much credit dude.

Kahn stated outright it would be a 3 year plan basically. He had to flip the roster inside out, making coaching changes, and the only player left from the McHale era is Love. He was given a team full of Randy Foye's, Corey Brewer's, etc. He flipped the roster and got young, with no contracts even over $6 million a year. He is far from perfect, and we still need to see what happens with the Rubio selection before we can grade his draft that year (which apparently is finally being realized next season barring lockout).

And yes, he is shopping it hard. I would hope to get a better player than Danny Granger with the pick, but we will see what happens in the coming weeks.

KnicksorBust
05-21-2011, 04:21 PM
you are giving the majority of the posters in the NBA forums way too much credit dude.

Kahn stated outright it would be a 3 year plan basically. He had to flip the roster inside out, making coaching changes, and the only player left from the McHale era is Love. He was given a team full of Randy Foye's, Corey Brewer's, etc. He flipped the roster and got young, with no contracts even over $6 million a year. He is far from perfect, and we still need to see what happens with the Rubio selection before we can grade his draft that year (which apparently is finally being realized next season barring lockout).

And yes, he is shopping it hard. I would hope to get a better player than Danny Granger with the pick, but we will see what happens in the coming weeks.

Isn't that a little optimistic? Did you have anyone in mind?

Just curious: How do Wolves fans project Wesley Johnson?

Hawkeye15
05-21-2011, 04:39 PM
Isn't that a little optimistic? Did you have anyone in mind?

Just curious: How do Wolves fans project Wesley Johnson?

Is Granger that much of an upgrade over Beasley that we need to throw the #2 pick at them? I don't think so. I would honestly hope to get someone like Kevin Martin, Iggy, etc with this #2 pick (I say this, because I know the #2 pick in this draft is not as good, or even better, than previous #2 picks).

How do I project Wes? Or how does the general Wolves fan project him? Big difference.

I see a solid starter who can spread the floor and defend alright. But he needs to be used differently, and its apparent Boheim doesn't teach defense, so Wes will continue to need to improve that. I think we should be running Wes thru a series of screens and getting him looks on the move. The quasi triangle is pathetic since we don't have the right personel.

DeadlyVeyerus31
05-21-2011, 04:48 PM
How do I project Wes? Or how does the general Wolves fan project him? Big difference.

I see a solid starter who can spread the floor and defend alright. But he needs to be used differently, and its apparent Boheim doesn't teach defense, so Wes will continue to need to improve that. I think we should be running Wes thru a series of screens and getting him looks on the move. The quasi triangle is pathetic since we don't have the right personel.



Anyone who watches college basketball knows that Syracuse runs a 2-3 defense. So, yes Johnson is going to struggle with his defense for a while. Just like Kahn should have known that Johnny Flynn wasn't a good fit because the Wolves were running the triangle instead of pick n roll. Which was/is his strength coming out of Syracuse.

Hawkeye15
05-21-2011, 05:39 PM
Anyone who watches college basketball knows that Syracuse runs a 2-3 defense. So, yes Johnson is going to struggle with his defense for a while. Just like Kahn should have known that Johnny Flynn wasn't a good fit because the Wolves were running the triangle instead of pick n roll. Which was/is his strength coming out of Syracuse.

The top portion of your post is spot on, and is exactly why I said what I said. Running a 2-3 zone religiously teaches you to guard an area, not a man. This kills you upon entering the NBA. Wes is a good enough athlete, and showed the ability to be a good defender, so I am not so worried about him.

Flynn sucks off the PnR too. He sucks at everything. And Kahn drafted Flynn before he hired Rambis, so he didn't know what offense Flynn would be sucking up.

TO to the CHI
05-21-2011, 06:44 PM
you are giving the majority of the posters in the NBA forums way too much credit dude.

Kahn stated outright it would be a 3 year plan basically. He had to flip the roster inside out, making coaching changes, and the only player left from the McHale era is Love. He was given a team full of Randy Foye's, Corey Brewer's, etc. He flipped the roster and got young, with no contracts even over $6 million a year. He is far from perfect, and we still need to see what happens with the Rubio selection before we can grade his draft that year (which apparently is finally being realized next season barring lockout).

And yes, he is shopping it hard. I would hope to get a better player than Danny Granger with the pick, but we will see what happens in the coming weeks.

I think the optimism in Kahn is a great sign for the franchise, but is a little curious. The only player that is currently on the TWolves' roster that is truly valued is Love -- which as you note is the only guy currently on the roster who was inherited by Love. Wolves fans constantly reference the valuable young talent that Kahn has acquired, but it seems to me that is a very biased assessment. Literally no team in the league wanted Beasley before last year. He proved to be decent, but nothing very impressive and really still has a very limited value. Randolph has proven in his career that he is a great summer league player and a guy who is a constant trade chip, but has done very little in the NBA. Wesley Johnson doesn't strike me as being particularly impressive. So essentially, Kahn has maintained the one top player on the roster and has added cap room. On the cap room front, it should be noted that the Wolves have never been a team that has signed prominent free agents. I am a Raps fan and trading for cap room always worries me because the Raps have trouble attracting free agents. So do the Wolves. Essentially, Kahn has built a terrible team with young players, but has the possibility of making something out of it. Wolves fans might view that as an upgrade over McHale (it likely is), but I would think a lot more is needed before anyone can suggest that he has actually accomplished anything or done a good job.

wolverine54
05-21-2011, 06:55 PM
If I'm the Twolves I'd be looking to trade first for Rudy Gay and second for Andre Igoudala. To me Rudy Gay is worth giving up the 2nd pick for and I know the Grizzlies have said they won't trade him but they do have to resign Gasol and gave big extensions to Randolph and Conley. Andre Igoudala seems to want out of Philly and if I'm Philly I think you move him while you can still get something substantial in return. Always better to trade a year early than a year late.

VillaMaravilla
05-21-2011, 07:34 PM
i can tell you this Rubios will never come to Indiana im half Spanish and his heart is set on NY its all over MARCA ans AS the spanish papers

mgsports
05-21-2011, 07:38 PM
Gay isn't going to be Traded.

CeeDub15
05-21-2011, 08:32 PM
Make you the worst team in the NBA. That's why he gets mocked. If somehow the T-Wolves got Hibbert out of this deal I'd be impressed. Finally a real center to play next to Kevin Love. If Marc Gasol-Zach Randolph can work out West... Hibbert-Love could be a dynamic duo. Either way I like that he's shopping it. It's a weak draft and the last thing the Wolves need is more young talent. They need some real players.

We were borderline the worst team in the league without any young guys with huge potential before he got here. Now we have Klove, Rubio, Wes, AR, Beasley, and Dwill/Kanter. Thats a hell of a lot better pieces than what we had before he got here, and there is a ton of buzz around our team being a big time team in a year or 2 with all these young guys. A nice young PG like Rubio is gonna be a huge help from guys like Flynn and Ridnour (who is descent, but lets face it, he is more of a backup.)

Hellcrooner
05-21-2011, 08:59 PM
i can tell you this Rubios will never come to Indiana im half Spanish and his heart is set on NY its all over MARCA ans AS the spanish papers

O yeah?

Id swear i read in Marca some days ago that he would report to wolves if theres no lockout.

DOnt believe Ny media b.s

CeeDub15
05-21-2011, 09:04 PM
Yeah, ive read alot of reports saying that he is more than likely coming as well. Rubio needs to actually see what Minnesota is like before he says that he hates it lol.

Punk
05-21-2011, 09:09 PM
Age doesn't matter. He's 28 but he doesn't have mileage on his body of a average 28 year old like an Amare or Tony Parker. That's the difference.

Your age only matters if you play in the NBA and it affects your age on the court. There is a reason why guys like Kidd and Grant Hill can be nearly 40 and still look young as hell.

Forget his age, Granger being 28 isn't important.

Chronz
05-21-2011, 10:07 PM
No I think Wolves fans defend him because we see what he has done to our team, give us hope and a ton of potential to succeed, which is a helluva lot better than what we had before he got here. People make fun of him and say he is a bad gm because sometimes he doesnt say the smartest things to the media, and made a mistake or 2 in the draft, thats why he hired Ronzone to help him out drafting. Its annoying when ppl post pointless stuff like "KAHHHHHHHHHHHN". Its just stupid, he has got us a ton of young plaeyrs with potential for players that we didnt think fit what we needed. Brewer and Koufos for AR (a young 21 yr old that has shown very good potential, and if he can get bigger he can play C for us), Miller and Foye for Rubio essentially, 2 2nd round picks for Beasley who i think can be a good 6th man.
So you like him because hes a better gm than mchale? Tbh even that might be a stretch, mchale seemed to draft only players who he saw in the final four but who has khan drafted? You can point to the personnel changes but none of them have been suave moves that stand out.

Either way I'm not saying your team is hopeless with him, it doesn't take a genius to accept a franchise saving move. Like wise its easy to create cap space if you have so many years, your given the freedom to trade your best player for next to nothing and have no expectations placed upon you.

I'm just wondering why defend a guy if hes clearly among the worst at his job?

Chronz
05-21-2011, 10:14 PM
We were borderline the worst team in the league without any young guys with huge potential before he got here. Now we have Klove, Rubio, Wes, AR, Beasley, and Dwill/Kanter. Thats a hell of a lot better pieces than what we had before he got here, and there is a ton of buzz around our team being a big time team in a year or 2 with all these young guys. A nice young PG like Rubio is gonna be a huge help from guys like Flynn and Ridnour (who is descent, but lets face it, he is more of a backup.)
Your giving kahn credit for landing the #2 pick? That makes zero sense, that's like me being proud that we had the foresight to draft blake griffin. You should measure his work in relation to his inherited assets. Most of his big time decisions have burned out.

Chronz
05-21-2011, 10:24 PM
nope. I understand the man comes off as arrogant, and the Flynn pick was out of this world bad. But he has won all his trades, and turned a team that was bloated with mid 20's players with zip potential, and a team with no financial flexibility, into a team with youth, and tons of flexibility to flip players and move contracts.

I defend him because the main forums still pulls the PG crap, and has called him inept since the day he took the job, while not actually looking at what he has done in detail.

How did he win the jefferson trade? More importantly what trades has he pulled off to have you defend him. I'd love to examine all the gms in detail but its so much easier to rely on the mass criticism and my personal memory, I can't recall any other gm make me question his intelligence.
The pg crap is a credible when you consider how badly he missed the boat on valuing flynn vs lawson. And to me these are the kind of moves where you can measure iq, not saying this was an ez no brainer but as an aspiring stat head surely you can appreciate lawsons steller draft markers. To me thats pretty close to idiotic. That's only one of his mistakes.

Hawkeye15
05-21-2011, 11:02 PM
How did he win the jefferson trade? More importantly what trades has he pulled off to have you defend him. I'd love to examine all the gms in detail but its so much easier to rely on the mass criticism and my personal memory, I can't recall any other gm make me question his intelligence.
The pg crap is a credible when you consider how badly he missed the boat on valuing flynn vs lawson. And to me these are the kind of moves where you can measure iq, not saying this was an ez no brainer but as an aspiring stat head surely you can appreciate lawsons steller draft markers. To me thats pretty close to idiotic. That's only one of his mistakes.

Lets look at both sides of the Jefferson trade. Big Al was a 20/10 player, we know this. Now, he was also a ball stopper, and when you look at the effect he had on Utah upon arrival (the worst 1st quarter team in the NBA), and the pure minutes he was stealing from a clearly superior Love, along with Jefferson's salary, we not enter the "Jefferson needed to go, they are lucky they got anything for him" discussion. That knee injury crushed his progression, this is obvious now.

Beasley for two 2nd round picks

Anthony Randolph and Curry (waived) for Corey Brewer and garbage

Randy Foye and Mike Miller for the rights to Rubio (I understand you don't project Rubio as a good player, many scouts disagree)

there are others, but I don't want to tire you


Now, I have fully admitted the Flynn pick was atrocious. I am beyond certain we can find terrible picks amongst any GM, especially one who was given the GM job, with the task of firing the head coach, and had to go into a draft with no direction. That being said, Kahn has made a "wait and see" decision in drafting Rubio. And unless there is a lockout, we are apparently about to "see" that decision.

I have no clue what your opinion was at the time, but even I thought Lawson had very limited upside as a pro. Obviously its very tough to gauge NCAA players now, as the competition is pure crap compared to the older days when players stuck around.

Hawkeye15
05-21-2011, 11:05 PM
I think the optimism in Kahn is a great sign for the franchise, but is a little curious. The only player that is currently on the TWolves' roster that is truly valued is Love -- which as you note is the only guy currently on the roster who was inherited by Love. Wolves fans constantly reference the valuable young talent that Kahn has acquired, but it seems to me that is a very biased assessment. Literally no team in the league wanted Beasley before last year. He proved to be decent, but nothing very impressive and really still has a very limited value. Randolph has proven in his career that he is a great summer league player and a guy who is a constant trade chip, but has done very little in the NBA. Wesley Johnson doesn't strike me as being particularly impressive. So essentially, Kahn has maintained the one top player on the roster and has added cap room. On the cap room front, it should be noted that the Wolves have never been a team that has signed prominent free agents. I am a Raps fan and trading for cap room always worries me because the Raps have trouble attracting free agents. So do the Wolves. Essentially, Kahn has built a terrible team with young players, but has the possibility of making something out of it. Wolves fans might view that as an upgrade over McHale (it likely is), but I would think a lot more is needed before anyone can suggest that he has actually accomplished anything or done a good job.

Wolves fans are happy to gain the flexibility and picks, but are hesitant to believe in Kahn fully. For a reason. But I defend him in the main forums for the same reason Bulls fan still attempt to push Rose over Paul down my throat. Its very annoying that the general fan has limited knowledge of my teams GM, and decides to make blanket statements without have a single clue as to his exact moves since being hired.

Wisdom Listens
05-21-2011, 11:21 PM
How did he win the jefferson trade?

We got 2 first round picks, cap space and freed up room for Love. I won't say either team necessarily won the trade because the Jazz got a hell of a player in Jefferson, but there is no denying the quality of the trade itself from the Wolves' perspective.


I can't recall any other gm make me question his intelligence.

......and I'm sure none of that has to do with the way he is portrayed in the media. Seriously, name all the stupid moves Kahn has made and I'm sure we could find another GM who's made more. This herd mentality with Kahn is really getting tiresome. It's like people pick on the guy just because it's easy to pick on him, not because of his lack of intelligence, but because of his against the grain type personality and the fact some of his moves have been unusual, not necessarily stupid.

IQ doesn't mean **** btw.

Wisdom Listens
05-21-2011, 11:25 PM
Beasley for two 2nd round picks

Anthony Randolph and Curry (waived) for Corey Brewer and garbage

Randy Foye and Mike Miller for the rights to Rubio (I understand you don't project Rubio as a good player, many scouts disagree)

there are others, but I don't want to tire you

Those 3 moves alone should be enough to shut up all the naysayers, but sadly they will not.

Ryan328
05-21-2011, 11:30 PM
If Minny can get Granger they should do it. As good as I think they D-Will will be, they need an older play to go with Love & company. I think I'm also in the minority that Cleveland should take Williams which would allow Irving to "fall" to Minnesota.

What's better....in the long run?

Irving-Johnson-Beasley-Love-Millicic

Collison-Johnson-Granger-Love-Millicic

Chronz
05-22-2011, 12:07 AM
Lets look at both sides of the Jefferson trade. Big Al was a 20/10 player, we know this. Now, he was also a ball stopper, and when you look at the effect he had on Utah upon arrival (the worst 1st quarter team in the NBA), and the pure minutes he was stealing from a clearly superior Love, along with Jefferson's salary, we not enter the "Jefferson needed to go, they are lucky they got anything for him" discussion. That knee injury crushed his progression, this is obvious now.
No offense but you didn't look at it from both sides, you looked at it from minnys side and with flawed revisionist history as well. Love wasnt and still isn't clearly superior to jefferson. Being a ball stopper is just the negative way of saying hes a goto post scorer. I do not doubt that you guys went the right direction but I don't buy the notion that you won a trade in which you 2 unknowns for a proven quality big man. Ive seen far lesser bigs net their team more than that, **** kmart got nj 3 picks and he was leaving anyways.



Beasley for two 2nd round picks
Anthony Randolph and Curry (waived) for Corey Brewer and garbage

Ummm Miami needed to move him to help land the big 3, and ny needed to land melo, you think you won these trades? I get that it was a plus move for your franchise but when your listing opportunistic trades as an example of your gms best moves its not saying much. Its the trades where both teams are trying to get similar value or where there is something at stake that expose insight. Which brings us to this trade




Randy Foye and Mike Miller for the rights to Rubio (I understand you don't project Rubio as a good player, many scouts disagree)

They definitely owned minny here because minny was trying to nab talent to compete and plenty of people were applauding them for the move but it back fired. Still the fact that an unknown prospect, with plenty of evidence that suggests bust status, being one of your gms best moves isn't impressive




there are others, but I don't want to tire you

Just tell me where you rank him and his work thus far.




Now, I have fully admitted the Flynn pick was atrocious. I am beyond certain we can find terrible picks amongst any GM, especially one who was given the GM job, with the task of firing the head coach, and had to go into a draft with no direction. That being said, Kahn has made a "wait and see" decision in drafting Rubio. And unless there is a lockout, we are apparently about to "see" that decision.

I have no clue what your opinion was at the time, but even I thought Lawson had very limited upside as a pro. Obviously its very tough to gauge NCAA players now, as the competition is pure crap compared to the older days when players stuck around.

I don't follow college but I pay attention to the draft stats. Ty was a beast, basically one of the poster childs for advanced stats that draft. It came as no surprise that a superior front office like denvers took a chance on him. Does kahn even employ a stat consultant?

Chronz
05-22-2011, 12:20 AM
We got 2 first round picks, cap space and freed up room for Love. I won't say either team necessarily won the trade because the Jazz got a hell of a player in Jefferson, but there is no denying the quality of the trade itself from the Wolves' perspective.
I don't know if you can measure the trade until you know when and where the picks fall but I do know you haven't won the trade from the onset. More importantly tho why does someone even have to win the trade, what if both teams won/lost?



......and I'm sure none of that has to do with the way he is portrayed in the media.
If you knew anything about me this would almost insult me, sure the cracks against him are memorable and make it easier to dislike him but in the end they don't overrun my own opinion of him.



Seriously, name all the stupid moves Kahn has made and I'm sure we could find another GM who's made more. This herd mentality with Kahn is really getting tiresome. It's like people pick on the guy just because it's easy to pick on him, not because of his lack of intelligence, but because of his against the grain type personality and the fact some of his moves have been unusual, not necessarily stupid.

IQ doesn't mean **** btw.
Im all for a group project where we assess and dissect every move from recent memory to rank gms but im positive you won't find many that are as bad as kahn. Not sure what your implying by saying iq doesn't matter

Chronz
05-22-2011, 12:21 AM
Those 3 moves alone should be enough to shut up all the naysayers, but sadly they will not.
LOL not when the naysayers are comparing him to truly gifted gms. Ill get to your post in minute, I'm at work on my phone.

Wisdom Listens
05-22-2011, 12:39 AM
I don't know if you can measure the trade until you know when and where the picks fall but I do know you haven't won the trade from the onset. More importantly tho why does someone even have to win the trade, what if both teams won/lost?

I agree, sometimes both teams win/lose. In this case and as of right now I believe both teams won. The future may tell a different story, however.


If you knew anything about me this would almost insult me, sure the cracks against him are memorable and make it easier to dislike him but in the end they don't overrun my own opinion of him.

Sorry if it offends you, but even you said the cracks against him make it easier to dislike him. I was not implying the only reason you think he's an idiot is because of the media, but I'm sure it does play a role.


Im all for a group project where we assess and dissect every move from recent memory to rank gms but im positive you won't find many that are as bad as kahn.

I'm sill waiting for the compelling evidence against him.

Wisdom Listens
05-22-2011, 12:40 AM
Not sure what your implying by saying iq doesn't matter

IQ is not an accurate measure of intelligence because not everyone is intelligent in the same way.

Wisdom Listens
05-22-2011, 12:40 AM
LOL not when the naysayers are comparing him to truly gifted gms.

Well if the naysayers are comparing him to truly gifted GM's then no wonder they think he's so terrible. He may not be an elite GM, but Kahn isn't nearly as bad as some people make out.

Chronz
05-22-2011, 01:22 AM
IQ is not an accurate measure of intelligence because not everyone is intelligent in the same way.
When it comes to basketball there aren't many ways for a gm to make a difference. I'm just wondering what aspects you guys think shine through. Take Isiah Thomas for example, he doesn't have a strong following and most of it is probably well deserved, but the guy is a master drafter and has fared well in finding diamonds in the rough. Thus far the only real arguments I've heard for kahn are that he > the previous regime and that hes a good accountant for creating cap space on a team that wasnt loaded with any expectations or toxic contacts. Big whoop.

His skill for drafting and planning ahead are still unproven. But st the same time even the greatest gms can have bad stretches. Its happened to dumars and the logo before.



Well if the naysayers are comparing him to truly gifted GM's then no wonder they think he's so terrible. He may not be an elite GM, but Kahn isn't nearly as bad as some people make out.

As a clippers fan I can relate to this, I can admit DTS is a bad owner but hes come a long way. Cliches are born because the public refuses to move on, now DTS is still horrible so its not a great comparison here but Isiah thomas is another example, he had a horrible run in ny but hes better than given credit for. So long as we admit there is some truth to some of the criticism then there should be no disagreements.

raidersrock99
05-22-2011, 02:19 AM
t-wolves have talent to be a good team. w/ kevin love, and michael beasley, but just missinga few pieces reminds me of my kings

Hawkeye15
05-22-2011, 01:15 PM
No offense but you didn't look at it from both sides, you looked at it from minnys side and with flawed revisionist history as well. Love wasnt and still isn't clearly superior to jefferson. Being a ball stopper is just the negative way of saying hes a goto post scorer. I do not doubt that you guys went the right direction but I don't buy the notion that you won a trade in which you 2 unknowns for a proven quality big man. Ive seen far lesser bigs net their team more than that, **** kmart got nj 3 picks and he was leaving anyways.

Okay, you are saying Jefferson was traded for 2 picks, which are unknowns. I agree. Chronz, I have watched both play a ton more games than you, and understand statistics. This is one evaluation you will find a hard time coming out on top of. You know I respect your opinions and rarely engage you because I don't want to look stupid. But Jefferson, post knee surgery, showed that his lift and lane agility are gone. He now relies on pure craftiness. He can't pass. He IS a ball stopper. That is not a goto scorer. That is a shot clock waster. It would be one thing if he could draw defenses out and throw a simple skip pass, but he doesn't. Read the following (I used a blog update versus insider, since its not allowed, but its the same thing:

http://www.spursreport.com/forums/spurs-nba-fan-feedback/107567-espn-jeffersons-not-enough-revive-jazz-hollinger.html

Now, Love is CLEARLY better than Jefferson. In everything except for footwork in the post. Everything dude. The trade itself had to do with shedding salary, and moving a player that was limiting a much better players minutes since it was shown Love and Jefferson could not coexist on the floor together. The trade also involved Koufus who was flipped to Cleveland for more salary relief as well



Ummm Miami needed to move him to help land the big 3, and ny needed to land melo, you think you won these trades? I get that it was a plus move for your franchise but when your listing opportunistic trades as an example of your gms best moves its not saying much. Its the trades where both teams are trying to get similar value or where there is something at stake that expose insight. Which brings us to this trade

So circumstances matter for this trade, but not the Jefferson trade? If you simply want to give Kahn credit only for being the first guy on the phone with Pat after the decision, than fine. But the fact is, the Wolves got a #2 pick, and 18.5 ppg scorer (albeit a below average efficiency scorer), for literally nothing. That is a win, no matter how you look at it. Now, both the Beasley and Randolph trades would not have been made had Kahn not created financial flexibility. This is what I am talking about. how many teams were capable of making upgrades with those two trades? Not many. Why? Because most teams are at the cap, and don't have the assets to get involved as a 3rd party in those trades. We picked up Randolph for Brewer, and Beasley for two second rounders. That is a major upgrade that come from Kahn's ability to get us under the cap, and have multiple players making minimal money.




They definitely owned minny here because minny was trying to nab talent to compete and plenty of people were applauding them for the move but it back fired. Still the fact that an unknown prospect, with plenty of evidence that suggests bust status, being one of your gms best moves isn't impressive

Foye and Miller were not good with us. Foye especially needed a change of scenery, and a vet like Miller was wrong timing. I understand you think Rubio will be a bust. Others do not. This trade is exactly what I am talking about. Created flexibility for a team stuck in neutral with no young talent outside Love.




Just tell me where you rank him and his work thus far.

middle of the pack at best. The reason I defend him so much, is because he would be labeled as the worst GM in the NBA by PSD, despite there being multiple GM's who have been screwing up for eternity.



I don't follow college but I pay attention to the draft stats. Ty was a beast, basically one of the poster childs for advanced stats that draft. It came as no surprise that a superior front office like denvers took a chance on him. Does kahn even employ a stat consultant?

Here is where we get into the "watch the games" that even I hate. I do follow college basketball to some degree. And 6' PG's with limited range tend to not project extremely well. The Wolves do employ a stat consultant. But they also use Tony Ronzone now, a scout, to make their decisions. You have to remember, Kahn had just literally taken over as GM, and had no coach going into that draft. He didn't have a crew to help him make the decision. Rubio was a no brainer due to value when he fell to #5. Flynn was a terrible pick, and obviously a complete miss that I own up to in a heartbeat. The Lawson trade was made in principal. We picked him for someone else. I understand that too was a mistake, because it basically netted us Martel Webster, who is nice and all, but hurt too much. I would rather be a sucky team with options than a sucky team with no options if that makes sense.



Chronz, by no means have I ever said Kahn is perfect. But he has indeed done what he said he would. Make the team younger, more flexible financially, gain picks, etc. He also said it would be a 3 year process. Trust me, Wolves fans will not settle for another 20 or below win season and sit quietly while he does his job. But he is following the plan so far. Do I think he has made some mistakes? Yep. Do I think you, the media and PSD blow everything he does out of proportion? Yep.

Hawkeye15
05-22-2011, 01:17 PM
god I suck at multi-quoting

Young2Kinsler
05-22-2011, 01:19 PM
Crooner beats all I've ever seen. He wants to just hand a starting job to someone because they are ****ing Spanish, lmao

Hawkeye15
05-22-2011, 01:44 PM
Chronz, regarding the #2 pick, what would you do with it then? Honestly.

And I am done defending Kahn to you man. You have my opinion. I defend him because he gets too much heat here. I have not once in my life said he is a good GM. But he isn't the embarrassment most here on PSD, and in the media, make him out to be. The general media is starting to catch on to my views over the past year with the Beasley/Randolph heist, and with Rubio headed over barring lockout.

AddiX
05-22-2011, 03:05 PM
You guys both make very good points. I agree with chronz more though. Love is not proven any better than Jefferson. A d this whole idea that minny has done a great job because they stacked assets means they did well isnt true.

The reason it's not true is because they don't know who they are going to build around, you look at that team and have no clue who's staying or going.

I do agree with hawk that Randolph and Beasley were good trades though, they didn't lose out on anything with those trades and got really athletic talented players, although both are dumb as rocks.

Punk
05-23-2011, 01:46 PM
Love has proven not to be better than Jefferson? :laugh2:

You can't be serious.

Wisdom Listens
05-23-2011, 02:35 PM
Love has proven not to be better than Jefferson? :laugh2:

You can't be serious.

Yeah, I think it' pretty obvious Love is the superior player, especially since Jefferson's injury. I mean he did things last season that haven't been done for like 30 years. Love > Jefferson

GrkGawdofWalkz
05-23-2011, 03:00 PM
:sigh: After we committed the mistake of trading him in the first place

Two games from the NBA Finals says otherwise. Yes the Heat gave up on him too easily. But, I don't think it's that big of a loss if you win a title in year one possibly.

twoearl
05-23-2011, 03:06 PM
LOL. When are people going to accept the fact Michael Beasely is just not going to be a star? He was born to be the High Energy big off the bench...

PurpleJesus
05-23-2011, 03:07 PM
Love has proven not to be better than Jefferson? :laugh2:

You can't be serious.

you can't be serious.

Chronz
05-23-2011, 03:09 PM
Okay, you are saying Jefferson was traded for 2 picks, which are unknowns. I agree. Chronz, I have watched both play a ton more games than you, and understand statistics. This is one evaluation you will find a hard time coming out on top of. You know I respect your opinions and rarely engage you because I don't want to look stupid. But Jefferson, post knee surgery, showed that his lift and lane agility are gone. He now relies on pure craftiness. He can't pass. He IS a ball stopper. That is not a goto scorer. That is a shot clock waster. It would be one thing if he could draw defenses out and throw a simple skip pass, but he doesn't. Read the following (I used a blog update versus insider, since its not allowed, but its the same thing:

http://www.spursreport.com/forums/sp...hollinger.html

Now, Love is CLEARLY better than Jefferson. In everything except for footwork in the post. Everything dude. The trade itself had to do with shedding salary, and moving a player that was limiting a much better players minutes since it was shown Love and Jefferson could not coexist on the floor together. The trade also involved Koufus who was flipped to Cleveland for more salary relief as well
If you agree with what Im saying Im not sure what the rest of your post was about. I know who Jefferson is and mentioning his weaknesses in a vacuum doesnt change my perspective. If I go on to list the deficiencies of any player he would sound like a poor player as well. Not sure why you posted Hollingers work when hes notorious for miscalculating a specific change of role into his projections. (BTW you can just send or pm me the insider link, or are their rules against that?) The minute the Jazz acquired Jefferson I never once thought he would fit into the flex, I simply thought wow they stole a quality player for next to nothing. Neither I nor Hollinger knows what the Jazz were expecting but I would be extremely disappointed if they felt he could replace Boozers production in that offense. And we'll see about your statistical acumen, I do admire you for being open to any form of analysis but I think your overrating your statistical acumen, I dont think any of us here "know" the #'s".


So circumstances matter for this trade, but not the Jefferson trade?The circumstances are in their favor, they cant make the trade without receiving the best players involved. When you say "won the trade" I take that to mean the other team lost it, if all your trying to say is you made out well in the those trades then thats a different matter to discuss.


If you simply want to give Kahn credit only for being the first guy on the phone with Pat after the decision, than fine.
What? Even this would be giving him too much credit, I dont know who was first, all I know is that other teams had the chance to take him and passed due to their own ignorance or animosity towards the decision.


But the fact is, the Wolves got a #2 pick, and 18.5 ppg scorer (albeit a below average efficiency scorer), for literally nothing. That is a win, no matter how you look at it.
Not if you look at it through an unbiased point of view (Ill get to the literally nothing part in a second). There is nothing impressive about winning the #2 pick, as I told your fellow Wolf, it would be like me bragging that we drafted Blake Griffin. This isnt a testament to anything other than your team sucking and being lucky. Agree on Beasley


Now, both the Beasley and Randolph trades would not have been made had Kahn not created financial flexibility.
These players werent had for literally nothing, you had to create that flexibility right. Anyways I know Im coming off as nitpicky but Im trying to show just exactly how nuanced of a project it would be to assess and rank every GM in the league. You up for it?


This is what I am talking about. how many teams were capable of making upgrades with those two trades? Not many. Why? Because most teams are at the cap, and don't have the assets to get involved as a 3rd party in those trades. We picked up Randolph for Brewer, and Beasley for two second rounders. That is a major upgrade that come from Kahn's ability to get us under the cap, and have multiple players making minimal money.
I know, which is why this being the sole strength of the Kahn isnt a bad GM proclamation is such a joke. Minny has 1 goal, to rebuild. Its easy to break down the team when you inherit a team that wasnt saddle bagged by any real toxic contracts with absolutely ZERO expectations and the freedom to trade one of his best players. These arent skill moves. Skill moves come from the draft, FA, and through trades that are deemed equal yet prove to be giant wins.


Foye and Miller were not good with us. Foye especially needed a change of scenery, and a vet like Miller was wrong timing. I understand you think Rubio will be a bust. Others do not. This trade is exactly what I am talking about. Created flexibility for a team stuck in neutral with no young talent outside Love.
I dont know why you feel the need to say this everytime, I know some people think he wont be a bust, thats why there is hype behind him, you dont need to confirm the fact that there is no consensus about him, that in itself proves his irrelevance at this point.


middle of the pack at best. The reason I defend him so much, is because he would be labeled as the worst GM in the NBA by PSD, despite there being multiple GM's who have been screwing up for eternity.
Sounds like a good project, get it started and Ill chip in, it will forever end this argument and you will have a nice thread to link the ignorant to.




Here is where we get into the "watch the games" that even I hate. I do follow college basketball to some degree.
And Ill tell you the same thing I tell them, I dont care about what you think your watching, just how you defend your stance. The reason I dont watch or follow college basketball anymore, aside from the sheer size and overall lack of athleticism in the league, is because it doesnt give me any special insight into how these players will translate into the NBA, the Draft isnt an exact science, GM's hit and miss with regularity
What Im discovering now is that if we replaced all the choices in recent Draft History with even the simplest of draft ratings systems, the predictive power of those computers outweigh the GM's decisions (IMO). And if thats the case among actual GM's then I dont really believe there is much value to listening to what other people think they are seeing, I only value their opinion if they provide some concrete evidence to the table.


And 6' PG's with limited range tend to not project extremely well.
Wait let me get this straight, most of the advanced draft systems pegged him as GREAT prospect, yet you think have a better grasp on how to project his success rate? See why Im not convinced you "know the #'s"?


The Wolves do employ a stat consultant. But they also use Tony Ronzone now, a scout, to make their decisions. You have to remember, Kahn had just literally taken over as GM, and had no coach going into that draft. He didn't have a crew to help him make the decision. Rubio was a no brainer due to value when he fell to #5. Flynn was a terrible pick, and obviously a complete miss that I own up to in a heartbeat. The Lawson trade was made in principal. We picked him for someone else. I understand that too was a mistake, because it basically netted us Martel Webster, who is nice and all, but hurt too much. I would rather be a sucky team with options than a sucky team with no options if that makes sense.
So then why not trade the player who obviously wouldnt fit your system before his trade value went to ****? Dont know jack about Ronzone but I gather Kahn needs all the help he can get.



Chronz, by no means have I ever said Kahn is perfect. But he has indeed done what he said he would. Make the team younger, more flexible financially, gain picks, etc.
The problem being is that Im saying hes done a poor job of selecting that youth and hasnt done anything to distance himself from the pack of bad GM's with that flexibility. Hes gotten picks sure, but its an empty statement on its own.


He also said it would be a 3 year process. Trust me, Wolves fans will not settle for another 20 or below win season and sit quietly while he does his job. But he is following the plan so far. Do I think he has made some mistakes? Yep. Do I think you, the media and PSD blow everything he does out of proportion? Yep.
We shall see just where his perceived ineptitude takes him.


Chronz, regarding the #2 pick, what would you do with it then? Honestly.
What do you mean, I dont recall criticizing his stance on trading the pick.


And I am done defending Kahn to you man. You have my opinion. I defend him because he gets too much heat here. I have not once in my life said he is a good GM. But he isn't the embarrassment most here on PSD, and in the media, make him out to be. The general media is starting to catch on to my views over the past year with the Beasley/Randolph heist, and with Rubio headed over barring lockout.
Just get started on that project, you'll have my blessing and Ill never bring him up again.

Chronz
05-23-2011, 03:09 PM
Love has proven not to be better than Jefferson? :laugh2:

You can't be serious.
Hes not CLEARLY better is the point being made.

Hawkeye15
05-23-2011, 03:29 PM
Chronz, I was referring to Beasley being a former #2 pick, sorry for the wording. And we won't agree that Kahn did increase flexibility to get them for nothing basically (the players he moved to create that flexibility were not good players).

Now, I simply asked, put yourself in Kahn's shoes for a second, and tell me what YOU would do with this pick. Trade it? For what? What kind of player do you think its fairly worth?

Chronz
05-23-2011, 04:24 PM
Yeah, I think it' pretty obvious Love is the superior player, especially since Jefferson's injury. I mean he did things last season that haven't been done for like 30 years. Love > Jefferson
If you look at it that way hes done something nobody in the history of the league has ever done. Problem with these statements is that they dont tell you anything conclusive. When it comes to their values as players, I do believe Love is better but its not by such a wide margin that its without question. It will ultimately depend on what Love does with more talent alongside him.

MinVikesFan
05-23-2011, 04:27 PM
We got two more wins with love starting and big Al gone. I think Love is better but not superior by any means. They both are absolutely terrible at defense.

3's set u free
05-23-2011, 04:31 PM
We got two more wins with love starting and big Al gone. I think Love is better but not superior by any means. They both are absolutely terrible at defense.

Love is a nice player who puts up great stats. That being said when he was offered a tough matchup he was not competetive. He is a hustle player that has nice touch and a nice jump shot. He's too undersized and unathletic to ever be a dominant player.

I would say he is pretty much equal to Jefferson, a little worse offensively and defensively however his hustle and being a smart player he makes up for it. A two game difference from last year means they were pretty much a wash.

Spacolie716
05-23-2011, 04:45 PM
i dont even know why the t-wolves should draft williams, he's compared to Beasly, why do you want 2 beaslys?

KnicksR4Real
05-23-2011, 04:47 PM
I want the Knicks to get Rubio! Not the Pacers