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View Full Version : New York, David Lee, Zach Randolph, and Hindsight's 20/20 Vision



JasonJohnHorn
05-15-2011, 06:58 PM
I created another thread looking at what New York passed up and comparing it to what they got, asking fans to compare Boozer and Bosh (rumoured potential signings that NY was looking at with cap space) with what they had (Zach Randolph) and what they got (Amare). Results came back with Amare in front, which I wasnt surprised by.


What I was surprised by was how many NY fans seemed to think that NY's poor record over 2009 and 2010, was a result of Randolph's deficiencies and NOT the coaching and front office choices, which, from where I'm looking, seemed to be a time in Knicks history, a two year window, which the front office gave out allowances to all involved to LOSE with the hopes of dumping contracts to clear space in order to sign LBJ and Bosh.

Hindsight is 20/20, and most people dont like what ifs, but the bottom line is that had New York kept David Lee and Zach Randolph, they still would have been able to sign Felton, and would have still had everything they needed to make the Melo trade work. So New York essentially gave up Zach Randolph, David Lee, Al Harrington, and Darko, for Amare. And it seemed to me that since NY was dumping contracts and not offering contracts to players like Zach, Lee and Harrignton, they alienated their players, and their coach was given permission to alienated to the point where they simply were not effective on the floor.

So i have two questions, one a rhetorical, which I know what any sane person would answer: Would you, if you were NY, take a trade that involv ed nothing other than sending Amare out, and getting back Randolph, Lee, Harrington and Darko.

The other questions, do you think NY's front office essentially threw away two years with the hopes to sign free agents, and, is that the right thing to do.

And i do not leave this in the New York forum, because I am curious as to how fans in general view this. If they would be ok with their own team intentionally losing games to dump contracts and sign free agents, or perhaps simply get better positioning for the draft (like many suspect Cleveland did to land the #1 pick that was LeBron James).

llemon
05-15-2011, 07:10 PM
I created another thread looking at what New York passed up and comparing it to what they got, asking fans to compare Boozer and Bosh (rumoured potential signings that NY was looking at with cap space) with what they had (Zach Randolph) and what they got (Amare). Results came back with Amare in front, which I wasnt surprised by.


What I was surprised by was how many NY fans seemed to think that NY's poor record over 2009 and 2010, was a result of Randolph's deficiencies and NOT the coaching and front office choices, which, from where I'm looking, seemed to be a time in Knicks history, a two year window, which the front office gave out allowances to all involved to LOSE with the hopes of dumping contracts to clear space in order to sign LBJ and Bosh.

Hindsight is 20/20, and most people dont like what ifs, but the bottom line is that had New York kept David Lee and Zach Randolph, they still would have been able to sign Felton, and would have still had everything they needed to make the Melo trade work. So New York essentially gave up Zach Randolph, David Lee, Al Harrington, and Darko, for Amare. And it seemed to me that since NY was dumping contracts and not offering contracts to players like Zach, Lee and Harrignton, they alienated their players, and their coach was given permission to alienated to the point where they simply were not effective on the floor.

So i have two questions, one a rhetorical, which I know what any sane person would answer: Would you, if you were NY, take a trade that involv ed nothing other than sending Amare out, and getting back Randolph, Lee, Harrington and Darko.

The other questions, do you think NY's front office essentially threw away two years with the hopes to sign free agents, and, is that the right thing to do.

And i do not leave this in the New York forum, because I am curious as to how fans in general view this. If they would be ok with their own team intentionally losing games to dump contracts and sign free agents, or perhaps simply get better positioning for the draft (like many suspect Cleveland did to land the #1 pick that was LeBron James).

Please, Nets lead the universe in hindsight

Becks2307
05-15-2011, 07:15 PM
you are missing the point, the two years weren't with the hope of bringing in amare...it was for lebron. Amare in fact was like the 3/4 best scenario. Its a risk im glad we took. WE have a better chance to win with amare and melo than we ever would have with those 4 guys

NYK|NYY
05-15-2011, 07:16 PM
Yes we wanted to get a shot at Lebron and that is why we dumped everything including Randolph. At the time the deal to dump him was looked at as incredible because the perception of Zach was a player who didn't win where ever he went and he had an egregious contract. Not to mention all the off court troubles he has dealt with.

You can't say "You gave up all that for Amar'e" when in reality we gave it up for a chance at Lebron, two different things.

Crackadalic
05-15-2011, 07:18 PM
As good as Z-bo has become and Im proud of him, seeing him up close in NY shown me how much of a black hole he was for years. We traded him next to nothing to the clippers and they did they same thing when they traded him to Memphis. If we didn't make the trade we wouldnt have caspace for Amare and have the assets to get Melo

Bosh already knew where he was headed from the get go so we may never know how well he would play in NY seeing how he was overwhelm not to long ago during the boston series.

Boozer is a nice player but we needed a star player and to us getting Boozer as our main star wasnt gonna end well for the team or for the fans

As much heat Amare gets for not playing defense and not rebounding well for his position he played his butt off with us knowing that without a pg making it easier for him that he had to do more for the team. People complain about his health but for the most part he was healthy except for the last month and in total he miss only 3 games this year

That was my post in the other thread. Z-bo had more talent in NY but we still only won 23 games. Before we traded him we were 6-5 against weak competition

I explain everything else in my previous

jimm120
05-15-2011, 07:23 PM
2010?

I think you mean 2008 and 2009.

btw, well, those were seasons in which we deconstructed.

2009 we had NO chance since that was just letting the guys expire.

2008, we had more talent for a longer period of time.

but what I feel REALLY made the Knicks suck was D'antoni.

His offense was too disorganized.
He preferred to play Duhon over Marbury (and don't say "where are those guys now...we're not talking about now, we're talking about then).
He didn't play Milicic and other bigs in 2009 and 2008.
He had tons of player segregation, which divided (obviously) the team.

Technically, the SAME errors we saw in the 2010 season, in which the offense was disorganized pre-trade and post trade, benched the bigs in Mozgov, Randolph, and Sheldon.

Which is why I don't feel too happy about 2011 with him as coach. I'm sure we'll do good, but I will doubt that the reason is because of D'antoni.

btw, until this day, I don't give up hope that we'll actually see the fabled "dantoni offense". But like my sig says, he's had 4 different teams in 3 years and we've only truly seen the D'antoni offense when the Knicks get hot on 3's and drain 15+ in a game. Every other time, its been a disorganized group.

THE MTL
05-15-2011, 07:34 PM
I created another thread looking at what New York passed up and comparing it to what they got, asking fans to compare Boozer and Bosh (rumoured potential signings that NY was looking at with cap space) with what they had (Zach Randolph) and what they got (Amare). Results came back with Amare in front, which I wasnt surprised by.


What I was surprised by was how many NY fans seemed to think that NY's poor record over 2009 and 2010, was a result of Randolph's deficiencies and NOT the coaching and front office choices, which, from where I'm looking, seemed to be a time in Knicks history, a two year window, which the front office gave out allowances to all involved to LOSE with the hopes of dumping contracts to clear space in order to sign LBJ and Bosh.

Hindsight is 20/20, and most people dont like what ifs, but the bottom line is that had New York kept David Lee and Zach Randolph, they still would have been able to sign Felton, and would have still had everything they needed to make the Melo trade work. So New York essentially gave up Zach Randolph, David Lee, Al Harrington, and Darko, for Amare. And it seemed to me that since NY was dumping contracts and not offering contracts to players like Zach, Lee and Harrignton, they alienated their players, and their coach was given permission to alienated to the point where they simply were not effective on the floor.

So i have two questions, one a rhetorical, which I know what any sane person would answer: Would you, if you were NY, take a trade that involv ed nothing other than sending Amare out, and getting back Randolph, Lee, Harrington and Darko.

The other questions, do you think NY's front office essentially threw away two years with the hopes to sign free agents, and, is that the right thing to do.

And i do not leave this in the New York forum, because I am curious as to how fans in general view this. If they would be ok with their own team intentionally losing games to dump contracts and sign free agents, or perhaps simply get better positioning for the draft (like many suspect Cleveland did to land the #1 pick that was LeBron James).

So any things wrong with this thread.

First, Zach Randolph was always a 20-10 threat however the lack of defense around him in NYC and Portland made him look bad. In Memphis, he has TOP NOTCH perimeter defenders in Allen and Battier, as well as good interior defense in Marc Gasol.

And without Amare, Im pretty sure there would be NO CARMELO ANTHONY! I cannot see Melo coming to the Knicks to play with Randolph and Lee.

Amare singlehandedly CARRIED the Knicks up until the deadline and gave us new life. He put us back on the map.

JasonJohnHorn
05-15-2011, 07:34 PM
2010?

I think you mean 2008 and 2009.

Nope, the 2009 and 2010. This season is the 2011 season. The season goes by the year in which it ends.

Underrated Wade
05-15-2011, 07:34 PM
cuz they didnt have wade

sportscrazed
05-15-2011, 07:55 PM
Melo would have gone to the Nets if NY didn't get Amare

ImThatDude
05-15-2011, 07:57 PM
Zach Randolph, David Lee, Al Harrington, and Darko.

:laugh2: Spare me.

sep11ie
05-15-2011, 08:02 PM
People, instead of quoting the OP on a long *** thread like that, just say, "to the OP". Geeze.

To answer the question, nobody knows. Didn't ZBo say he needed Memphis as much as they needed him and the blue collar attitude made him work harder. Who knows, in New York he could have easily turned into the next Eddy Curry.

jimm120
05-15-2011, 08:04 PM
Nope, the 2009 and 2010. This season is the 2011 season. The season goes by the year in which it ends.

no, they don't.

?

I've always heard it be said as in when the season started.

JasonJohnHorn
05-15-2011, 08:14 PM
no, they don't.

?

I've always heard it be said as in when the season started.


The champions are named the year they win in. So this year's playoffs are the "2011" playoffs. This years champions will be the "2011" champions. And this season will be referred to as the 2011 season, or the 10/11 season.

To be more specific I did indeed mean the 08/09 and the 09/10 seasons. But yes, the season is referred to by the year in which it end.

KnicksR4Real
05-15-2011, 08:17 PM
you are missing the point, the two years weren't with the hope of bringing in amare...it was for lebron. Amare in fact was like the 3/4 best scenario. Its a risk im glad we took. WE have a better chance to win with amare and melo than we ever would have with those 4 guys

perfectly said.

knickerbockerny
05-15-2011, 08:44 PM
Point blank period the Knicks front office over the last 3 seasons has been bad, but compared to how horrible Isaiah did people give Donnie and co. a pass. Its like going from a fat ugly chick to a but her face girl with a good body. The but her face girl with a good body is clearly an upgrade over the fat girl.

The Knicks have gotten the short end of the stick on every single trade during the Donnie era, and made big mistakes on draft day.

Now the silver lining right now is that the Knicks currently have Carmelo Anthony and Amare currently in place with Chauncey Billups' fat contract set to expire. Now if the Knicks were smart they would have learned from their mistakes in waiting for Lebron/Wade/Bosh. Only wait for a CP3 or Dwight is you have intel, that they want to come. Other than that maximize value.

They should maximize value and take advantage of good players who are not in good situations. Flip Billups for a center (Al Jefferson, Chris Kaman, Deandre Jordan, etc.). Draft an athletic pg, sign vet mins and go and compete

JerseysFinest
05-15-2011, 09:01 PM
Point blank period the Knicks front office over the last 3 seasons has been bad, but compared to how horrible Isaiah did people give Donnie and co. a pass. Its like going from a fat ugly chick to a but her face girl with a good body. The but her face girl with a good body is clearly an upgrade over the fat girl.

The Knicks have gotten the short end of the stick on every single trade during the Donnie era, and made big mistakes on draft day.

Now the silver lining right now is that the Knicks currently have Carmelo Anthony and Amare currently in place with Chauncey Billups' fat contract set to expire. Now if the Knicks were smart they would have learned from their mistakes in waiting for Lebron/Wade/Bosh. Only wait for a CP3 or Dwight is you have intel, that they want to come. Other than that maximize value.

They should maximize value and take advantage of good players who are not in good situations. Flip Billups for a center (Al Jefferson, Chris Kaman, Deandre Jordan, etc.). Draft an athletic pg, sign vet mins and go and compete
What incentive would the Jazz or Clippers have in trading Al Jefferson, Chris Kaman, or sign & trading DeAndre Jordan for Chauncey Billups?

knickerbockerny
05-15-2011, 09:06 PM
What incentive would the Jazz or Clippers have in trading Al Jefferson, Chris Kaman, or sign & trading DeAndre Jordan for Chauncey Billups?

I don't know, but the Knicks need to get creative. Looking at how the teams who advanced in the playoffs and comparing them to my beloved Knicks they are a long ways away. The Knicks lack overall depth, basketball IQ, post players, interior defensive presence, back up pg, starting shooting guard, etc.

I just figured Utah was rebuilding and had a log jam in the front court... Derrick Favors is there.. don't know???

Crackadalic
05-15-2011, 09:15 PM
Point blank period the Knicks front office over the last 3 seasons has been bad, but compared to how horrible Isaiah did people give Donnie and co. a pass. Its like going from a fat ugly chick to a but her face girl with a good body. The but her face girl with a good body is clearly an upgrade over the fat girl.

The Knicks have gotten the short end of the stick on every single trade during the Donnie era, and made big mistakes on draft day.

Now the silver lining right now is that the Knicks currently have Carmelo Anthony and Amare currently in place with Chauncey Billups' fat contract set to expire. Now if the Knicks were smart they would have learned from their mistakes in waiting for Lebron/Wade/Bosh. Only wait for a CP3 or Dwight is you have intel, that they want to come. Other than that maximize value.

They should maximize value and take advantage of good players who are not in good situations. Flip Billups for a center (Al Jefferson, Chris Kaman, Deandre Jordan, etc.). Draft an athletic pg, sign vet mins and go and compete

How does getting quick fixes make us better? We did that and look how that ended up. Were not winning anything until at least 2012 is gone. Either we get a star player or build around our 2 stars. Look at the 2012 FA class and you will wanna wait another year to. 2011 feels too much like 2009. A lot of overrated players getting big money

knickerbockerny
05-15-2011, 09:28 PM
How does getting quick fixes make us better? We did that and look how that ended up. Were not winning anything until at least 2012 is gone. Either we get a star player or build around our 2 stars. Look at the 2012 FA class and you will wanna wait another year to. 2011 feels too much like 2009. A lot of overrated players getting big money

And 2012 may end up just like 2010, with the Knicks watching their main targets sign elsewhere. While wasting another year of prime basketball for Amare and Melo. If the Knicks have the correct intel via back channels that one of these guys will come then it may be worth the wait, other than that its not.

You guys do realize the Knicks already have two prime time players and only Miami has three. I'm with your later option and building around the two star players we already have, but unlike you I would start now.

29$JerZ
05-15-2011, 09:31 PM
We had Zach for a full year and had one of our worst seasons.
Zach is not a player you build around. He has found a perfect spot in Memphis where he has 2 of the best perimeter defensive players keeping the paint from getting attacked and a C like Gasol who can score/rebound/defend. In NY he would have not had any of that.

I liked Zach, always felt he was a Top PF if he just played a lick of defense. Glad he found a good team to play on. Do not regret trading him however.

ohreally
05-15-2011, 10:45 PM
Well, Harrington and Darko weren't on the team with Randolph and Lee, but if we stayed with the team we had we would have drafted a point in the 2009 draft, preferably Jrue because he had the size, the talent, and the defense we needed. We would not have had to sign Felton, though we perhaps could have. There were certainly other moves we could have made though.

People talk of Zach having talent his first year, but that was the year that Eddy and Marbury really blew up, particularly Marbury, and QRich was hurt. We essentially had no point guard, Wil Chandler was not getting any much time and we didn't really have another small forward, and their really was no backup for Craw.


When Randolph was traded the team was 6-5, but Lee had been hurt for six games in which he played way below his usual; otherwise Randolph and Lee were playing well together. Gallo essentially wasn't playing at all. D'Antoni was a new coach with a new system, five of those 11 games were on the road, opponents included Sixers, Miami, Utah, San Antonio, Dallas, and Boston along with bottom dwellers. It was not a bad record and since Philly was in 6th spot in playoffs with a .500 record, our chances of making the playoffs were not bad.

JerseysFinest
05-15-2011, 11:21 PM
I don't know, but the Knicks need to get creative. Looking at how the teams who advanced in the playoffs and comparing them to my beloved Knicks they are a long ways away. The Knicks lack overall depth, basketball IQ, post players, interior defensive presence, back up pg, starting shooting guard, etc.

I just figured Utah was rebuilding and had a log jam in the front court... Derrick Favors is there.. don't know???

Well, the Jazz aren't giving up Favors, so you might have to try again. The Knicks main issues revolve around finding a solid post presence, depth, a youthful point guard perhaps, etc. Apparently, Charlotte might trade their 9th and 19th picks on draft day. If the Knicks can somehow formulate a package to offer to move up to the 9th dealing their own first and players of their own, the Knicks could get Montiejunas, Kanter, or Biyombo. With the 19th, grab Faried, who will help tremendously on the offensive and defensive glass. Then focus on getting depth in free agency, and before the trading deadline, get Melo and Stoud to make CP3 hold true to his promise that they'll form their own Big 3. Acquire him by the deadline. Operation Knicks basketball is back, part 2.

Kashmir13579
05-15-2011, 11:51 PM
David Lee?! we sitting here talkin' 'bout "David Lee"?! REALLY?? wait till next year when the Knicks actually have something close to a finished product then we'll see what hindsight looks like.

carnage101
05-16-2011, 12:03 AM
the whole goal for the knicks is to win a title not make the playoffs and get knocked out in the 2nd round every year