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JasonJohnHorn
05-12-2011, 08:17 PM
James made some very matrue comments in the press conference following the victory over Boston, and apologized to Cleveland fans for how he had handled things. And with recent CBA news and the league trying to find a way to encourage players to be loyal to teams, couple with Bryant's comments, standing up for his team and their ability to compete, it seems the question of loyalty have come to the forfront of basketball.

That said, I thought it might be appropiate to have a conversation about loyalty, not jsut from the players to the teams, but the other way around as well, and also to fans, and in the context of potential CBA rules.

First I want to say, that even though I am not a fan of LBJ jumping over to Miami, or a fan of teams just picking up a bunch of hired guns to win them a title, I also have to say that how a team treats its players is important as well. Mark Cuban for example has twice let players who played very well for him go, once in Steve Nash, and again with Michael Finely. Though outside of that he has generally made an effort to treat his players well, and has been faithful to Dirk and has stood by him. He has however clearly had a rocky relationship to Don Nelson. Toronto, when Bosh came, saw some mild success under Sam Mitchell, but hired a new GM, fired Mitchell and then went on to make bad draft choices which hurt the team. Many fans overlook things like this. I dont know what Bosh relationship to Mitchell was like, but I know some players are very close to their coaches. Duncan stood up for Pop, and the Spurs have been loyal to fan, players and coaches alike, and in turn have seen success. The Lakers, when Kobe made it clear to them that he wanted to be on a winner, put together a winner around him and gave him the tools he needed to compete. Boston has also generally been very loyal to their players, even role players that come to them late in their careers (like Bill Walton), as well as Stars like Russell, Bird, Parish, McHale, among many others. They have had long rebuilding eras sometimes because they let star players retire and get nothing back for them, but they generally seem to be quite loyal.

In the media it seems that when it comes to loyalty, players are the only ones held accountable, whilst teams can fire good coaches at the drop of a dime, ship of aging stars, and just in general put a losing team on the floor because they dont want to spend the money needed to compete and would rather make a profit.

Just wondering what other fans thought on the issue of loyalty. It is complicated, but I think over all, too much is put on the shoulders of the players, and not enough on teams and coaches, and the ones who end up getting short end of the stick are the fans.

mttwlsn16
05-12-2011, 08:26 PM
meh, i overreacted just like everyone else when it happened. but hes got the right to do what he wants, and i now find myself rooting for them in the east (assuming ATL doesnt make it)

mdm692
05-12-2011, 08:28 PM
U want loyalty. . .steve nash, kobe, pierce, duncan. . .nuff said

Sixerlover
05-12-2011, 08:29 PM
Never overreacted, other than "The Decision" which was uncalled for, nothing he did should've even been deemed suspect. It was 100% fine, and the right move.

Loyalty doesn't exists in sports though. Winning talks. If your a winner they stay, if not, they leave.

smith&wesson
05-12-2011, 08:35 PM
well its give take kinda thing. how do yo u stay loyal to a player like shaq or robert horry ? guys who will play for any and every team as long as they have a chance to win a ship ?

on the flip side, how does a player stay loyal to a franchise who clearly doesnt put enough talent around him to win a ship ?

i didnt care that lebron left clevland. just the way he did it rubbed every one the wrong way. but clevland did a poor job surounding lebron with good talent. larry hughes ? Mo williams ? old *** shaq ? runned down jamison ? these were very week attempts imo. i would have left too. what hurts your legacy more ? not playing with the team who drafted you all your career or winning 0 ships

BALLER71
05-12-2011, 08:37 PM
JEEEEZ. 3 rational posts in a row in the NBA forum? Can't believe it.

pedrofan45
05-12-2011, 08:40 PM
U want loyalty. . .steve nash, kobe, pierce, duncan. . .nuff said

are you really going to call kobe loyal? HA that is some funny sh**

Purple&Gold24
05-12-2011, 08:42 PM
JEEEEZ. 3 rational posts in a row in the NBA forum? Can't believe it.

This.

TO Rapz
05-12-2011, 09:03 PM
JEEEEZ. 3 rational posts in a row in the NBA forum? Can't believe it.

This.

mdm692
05-12-2011, 09:06 PM
are you really going to call kobe loyal? HA that is some funny sh**

kobe was all talk he was never leavin he did wat he had to do to win rings and it got him at least 2 more. . .sure he is an *** hole but he is a laker as well

Wade_County
05-12-2011, 09:20 PM
U want loyalty. . .steve nash, kobe, pierce, duncan. . .nuff said

lol, Kobes loyalty is to Kobe. Just ask Vanessa.

Cano4prez
05-12-2011, 09:21 PM
http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/5713/berneydidnotread.gif

Avenged
05-12-2011, 11:32 PM
Kobe is loyal. Say all you want about him but he's never left. He wasted the peak of his prime in L.A and got frustrated and decided to take things into his own hands.. But at the end of the day he's still a Laker. Same with a player like Lebron. He "wasted" 7 yrs of his career Cleveland. There comes a point in time where you just have to say "enough is enough" and look at other options where they will do anything to help you to win. Lebron isn't considered loyal, but 7 wasted years when he was the only good player will you do that.

iggypop123
05-12-2011, 11:41 PM
most of the people criticized the decision show, and rightfully should have. as his decision to leave, nobody though it wasnt smart, other than legacy. he aint gonna be the goat but i think lebron never wanted that.

Tanakid777
05-12-2011, 11:48 PM
U want loyalty. . .steve nash, kobe, pierce, duncan. . .nuff said

You forgot Dirk

hugepatsfan
05-12-2011, 11:52 PM
Teams and players only owe each other one thing - respect. A team has every right to trade a guy the minute they feel it makes them better, either talent wise or financially. And a player has every right to leave when his deal is up or to respectfully request a trade (behind closed doors, not trashing the team in the media). Just have some respect for each other. That's all I think is reasonable to ask.

tbone2171
05-13-2011, 12:12 AM
U want loyalty. . .steve nash, kobe, pierce, duncan. . .nuff said

???

Chill_Will_24
05-13-2011, 12:20 AM
Jordan and Pippen were said to have some issues with how CHI treated them. Wade even was said to be wary of them because of loyalty questions

Jason Kidd was the savior of the Nets franchise and their old ownership treated him and the rest of them pretty badly to the point that Kidd barely likes to talk about his Jersey days.

The Spurs are the most loyal franchise in the league imo. Great franchise.

hugepatsfan
05-13-2011, 12:23 AM
Jordan and Pippen were said to have some issues with how CHI treated them. Wade even was said to be wary of them because of loyalty questions

Jason Kidd was the savior of the Nets franchise and their old ownership treated him and the rest of them pretty badly to the point that Kidd barely likes to talk about his Jersey days.

The Spurs are the most loyal franchise in the league imo. Great franchise.

You better brace yourself...

divine7
05-13-2011, 12:30 AM
I don't post on the site much, because I find enjoyment in just reading everyone elses point of view. For this I really want to jump in. I was just talking about this very issue at work.

I as a fan use to go to Milwaukee Bucks games on a monthly basis and loved it. Even when we sucked I went to the games and supported my team. Ray Allen was my hero and when they formed the "Big 3" back in the day with Glenn Robinson and Sam Cassell, I was the happiest fan there was. Ray Allen even said he would spend his whole career here and he loved it in Milwaukee. Well good o'l George Karl thought it would be a great idea to get Gary Payton here for 2 months and he traded a Ray Allen in his prime, for a rental of GP and Desmond Mason. Needless to say I will never pull for my franchise ever again, because they betrayed me as a fan. I cheer for whatever team Allen plays for.

To take this to a football level, I was a huge Favre fan, and even after all that I am still a diehard Packer fan, that cheered Favre on the days he didn't play the Green and Gold..... oh and the game vs the Saints....haha

airforceones25
05-13-2011, 12:33 AM
lol, Kobes loyalty is to Kobe. Just ask Vanessa.

This! Kobe is a fraud!

Thorough-Eye
05-13-2011, 02:10 AM
Pretty good post, good depth so far. I indeed believe the coin should be viewed on both ends, players and owners. Being a Bobcats guy, my fan experience has been more bad than good, but nothing totally depressing. I personally think what LeBron did, and the manner in which he did so, was in a word, submissive. I never was a big fan of his, but I respect his skills and his place among the sports superstars of the world. I was disappointed in the decision, and still feel bad for the fans of Cleveland. Here's why, first off, LeBron was in a unique situation. He was arguably the most highly publicized and praised high school athlete of all time. He was the biggest name in the NBA, even before he was drafted. He had a story all his own. Poor kid from a single parent household, drafted No. 1 straight out of high school by the neighboring NBA team. He delivered on his potential, and cashed in on the stardom. He had next, all by himself. Not one other player in the league has the physical presence or marketing appeal. Some may argue Dwight Howard has these same intangibles, but I'de argue that Howard is getting a lot more attention now in part because of the dip in LeBron's popularity. He was being groomed to be the greatest.
Picture this scenario, if LeBron would have stayed in Cleveland, he would have had to go through these teams to get to the championship:
Rose & his Bulls
The Big Three (Boston)
the ATLiens (Hawks)
Dwight & the Magic
Melo & Amare

Had he faced these opponents, and beat them, multiple years, he would have been in the conversation vs. Jordan as the greatest of all time. But he didn't. Instead, he chose to think about himself, and his knees. He chose to look at the opposition, and how potentially difficult it would be to beat them, and chose to instead make it easier to win. He chose to look at management, and decided that they weren't active or effective enough to win a championship. Fair enough. He's his own man, and has to do what's best for him. But I'm a man as well, and believe that if he wanted to go, he should have facilitated it in a more private manner, particularly one that doesn't embarrass and cripple a sports franchise and their loyal fans. As a man, LeBron should have met with the owner of the franchise and said in his own words that he wanted to take his talents to South Beach. That's how men do things, face to face, eye to eye. Certain types of men, I guess I should say. Forgive me for believing he should have put pressure on himself to make the decision sooner, before the draft and/or before the end of the free agency period. Had Cleveland known he wanted to leave, they could have made some moves to keep themselves competitive. When he left, it effectively ended their season. And I don't care about Gilbert's I'll worded and highly criticized letter to the fans where he called James' actions cowardly and the like. I can understand both the criticism and how he felt. Is he the best owner in the NBA? I highly doubt it. Is he as active as many good owners/executives? Absolutely. I don't think Cleveland put LeBron in as bad of a scenario as many front offices do with their best players and teams. I would go as far to say that they tried, very hard to build around him, but, for whatever reason, they weren't able to gel enough to win it all. He should have retired a Cavalier, rings or not. If he was the greatest, he should have worn his knees to the bare cartilage for the burgundy and gold of his home state. And he should have been happy to do so. His pride stopped where his pain started. He's soft in my book for that. Always will be. I don't care how many rings he wins. He'll never be better than or equal to MJ. The decision was a showcase in what happens when you have no great peer advice available, because they're all on your payroll, family included.

JasonJohnHorn
05-13-2011, 07:45 AM
I think to say that James wasted seven years is unfair. There are a lot of teams that compete for the better part of a decade before winning. Isiah Thomas didnt win a title until his 8th season with the Pistons. Jordan didnt win until his 7th season. Hakeem didnt win until his 10th season, and faced hard losses deep into the playoffs. Not every player is as lucky as Bird, Magic, Duncan and Kobe, to be playing on a contender their first season. Guys like Dirk, Stockton, Malone, Miller, Gervin, and many others, play their entire careers without winning it, and still dont feel the need to switch teams (except for Malone) to try and win a title. And Stockton is still considered the best pure point guard by most fans (best 'pure' point guard, not the best, or best all around- that's Magic hands down). Everybody was moaning that Miller wasnt a first ballot HOF even though the guy ahead of him, Rodman, was the best rebounder of his generation and earned 5 NBA titles to Miller's zero.

LBJ did what he had to do, but he still passed up something very special. No group of fans in any city is going to love him as much as Cleveland did.

That said, this thread isnt so much about LBJ, as it is about loyalty being a thing that goes both ways.

When it comes to teams being loyal to players, i think the best example is San Antonio. Anybody else is a distant second.

PHX2daDEATH
05-13-2011, 08:16 AM
Isn't funny that Le'Bron has gone through almost all of his Critics former teams? 76ers (Barkley), Boston (Bird)...Now Chicago awaits and I wonder if Jordan and Pippen are going to be watching this INSIDE of the United Center together...If only the lakers were still alive (Magic)..back to topic... I see loyalty thing going both ways.. We had Barkley here for four years ..tinkered with his teams too much (Majerle for Hot Rod comes to mind) and even dangled Barkley in trades too (For Scottie, something I wish they would of done after Charles' second year here) until the point that he said F This trade me now.. same thing with Marion..He didn't want to be the 3rd guy in line..Suns showed no Loyalty constantly trying to trade the guy... i think after his trade he realized he's a better piece then being the main part cuz look at what he's doing with Dallas.. we could of surely used Marion in 2010.. no knock on Grant Hill's D but Matrix seems to get in Kobe's head a little more.. I noticed the OP mentioned Sam Mitchell.. I laugh @ the Raptors for firing him after an 8-9 start, two years after they won the atlantic title and he got COY.. its a shame this guy hasnt got a head coaching gig since or not even an interview for that matter..maybe there's dirt on his name ? Who knows..he was very instrumental in the careers of guys like KG and Billups

MagicHero3
05-13-2011, 08:54 AM
Lebron and Melo left their original teams bc they didnt win a ring at the end of their contract...whats stoppin them from doing it again? i dont want that kind of guy on my team, thinking if we dont win a championship in the next couple of years he will leave. Im sorry but the most impressive players are ones who can turn a team around instead of turning their backs on them. Those guys worked much harder to earn a championship. examples? Kobe, Wade, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan... Those guys are not just viewed as great players with rings but they are legends in their hometowns. Im sorry, but disloyal superstars like Lebron are only out for themselves, not for their team. If Lebron could (theoretically) win a ring all by himself with no teammates to share the glory with, he still would.

Geargo Wallace
05-13-2011, 08:55 AM
JEEEEZ. 3 rational posts in a row in the NBA forum? Can't believe it.
Way to break the streak of non-douchbaggery posts lol

kobe was all talk he was never leavin he did wat he had to do to win rings and it got him at least 2 more. . .sure he is an *** hole but he is a laker as well
They go hand in hand.

Jordan and Pippen were said to have some issues with how CHI treated them. Wade even was said to be wary of them because of loyalty questions

The Spurs are the most loyal franchise in the league imo. Great franchise.
It's really easy to be loyal when you're a star player of a team that's clicking.

This! Kobe is a fraud!
chill bra.

mdabstar
05-13-2011, 09:29 AM
Lebron and Melo left their original teams bc they didnt win a ring at the end of their contract...whats stoppin them from doing it again? i dont want that kind of guy on my team, thinking if we dont win a championship in the next couple of years he will leave. Im sorry but the most impressive players are ones who can turn a team around instead of turning their backs on them. Those guys worked much harder to earn a championship. examples? Kobe, Wade, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan... Those guys are not just viewed as great players with rings but they are legends in their hometowns. Im sorry, but disloyal superstars like Lebron are only out for themselves, not for their team. If Lebron could (theoretically) win a ring all by himself with no teammates to share the glory with, he still would.

LBJ had every right to leave if he wanted to. People got to remember that the role players around him were not chosen by him, it was done by management. Since management couldn't put a solid team to actually help him out, he left. Kobe for as great as he is couldn't win 60+ games with those cavs. To also say that he doesn't work as hard jordan and kobe is stupid. Kobe and Jordans teams had solid players when they won championships. (kobe- shaq, horry, fisher and then recently gasol, bynum, artest, odom.........jordan had pippen, rodman, harper). So hows that different than lbj joining wade? Both jordan and kobe were fortunate that they had an awesome supporting cast. Dont get me wrong though, kobe and jordan are great legends.

MagicHero3
05-13-2011, 09:55 AM
im just saying that it Jordan cared about WHO he was winning with, not just that he was winning. LBJ just wants a ring for himself. Lebron would do the same thing to Miami that he did to CLE In a heartbeat if he had to; doesnt that MEAN something to Heat fans? that he doesnt care about you guys or bringing a championship to Miami? he only cares about bringing a championship to himself, no matter where he would have went. i mean hes so into his own ego its crazy. After every dunk he does the "im gonna roar and open my mouth as big as i can" celebration. cmon bro, act like youve been there before. and ppl keep making the argument "he had every right to leave clevland". OK, then why didnt he WARN THEM he was leaving so they could trade him up for some goodies??? absolute nonsense. At least Melo had the decency to do so.

WadeCounty
05-13-2011, 10:03 AM
at the end of the day it's a business.




lets say you own a restaurant and you hired your friend to work there, they start messing up with orders and bad customer service. are you going to keep your friend employed and lose money just for loyalty or fire him and make money?

MagicHero3
05-13-2011, 10:05 AM
at the end of the day it's a business.




lets say you own a restaurant and you hired your friend to work there, they start messing up with orders and bad customer service. are you going to keep your friend employed and lose money just for loyalty or fire him and make money?

i dont think this metaphor works. but i would teach my friend how to do it right, so i wouldnt need to fire him. but still, try a diff comparison bc this one doesnt apply very well

king4day
05-13-2011, 10:09 AM
Here's how you get loyalty from the players.
Have the Hard cap in a few years as being discussd. Players wanna be loyal? Take massive paycuts.
Dirk, Duncan, and Nash are prime examples cuz they all took cuts to stay with their current teams and help them add pieces.

Fans, no matter if they stop watchin or stop going to games, in the back of their head, still have the team on their mind. They will check the scores and see how their team and players did.
It's not easy watching a team with no direction fail over and over again for such a long period of time.

Loyalty lies on the players and owners first before it lies on the fans.

PrettyBoyJ
05-13-2011, 10:34 AM
Only knock I have on Lebron is the nationally televised "Decision".. But if you really look at it, what do we as fans really know.. Where on the outside looking in.. a lot of the things athletes say to the media are scripted and they try and cover up whats really going on.. The NBA is a business and just like a business they have a few sharks.. IMO there's no loyalty when it comes to business.. It's either you eat or get eaten... For us to think that something wasnt going on behind the scenes to trigger Lebron to leave would be foolish. All the talks about leaving to go to a bigger market and stuff is BS.. Miami isnt that big of a market and Lebron was already a global icon and he played in Cleveland (No offense) As fans this should concern us, when you have the best player in the league lead his team to the best record 2 years in a row while collecting 2 MVP trophys walk out on you with out any kind of warning somethings not right..

Just to put more perspective on it, Michael Jordan was the best player in league history and was under paid for a majority of his career Chicago robbed him for years and he stayed loyal to them.

jezzyman05
05-13-2011, 11:14 AM
Pretty good post, good depth so far. I indeed believe the coin should be viewed on both ends, players and owners. Being a Bobcats guy, my fan experience has been more bad than good, but nothing totally depressing. I personally think what LeBron did, and the manner in which he did so, was in a word, submissive. I never was a big fan of his, but I respect his skills and his place among the sports superstars of the world. I was disappointed in the decision, and still feel bad for the fans of Cleveland. Here's why, first off, LeBron was in a unique situation. He was arguably the most highly publicized and praised high school athlete of all time. He was the biggest name in the NBA, even before he was drafted. He had a story all his own. Poor kid from a single parent household, drafted No. 1 straight out of high school by the neighboring NBA team. He delivered on his potential, and cashed in on the stardom. He had next, all by himself. Not one other player in the league has the physical presence or marketing appeal. Some may argue Dwight Howard has these same intangibles, but I'de argue that Howard is getting a lot more attention now in part because of the dip in LeBron's popularity. He was being groomed to be the greatest.
Picture this scenario, if LeBron would have stayed in Cleveland, he would have had to go through these teams to get to the championship:
Rose & his Bulls
The Big Three (Boston)
the ATLiens (Hawks)
Dwight & the Magic
Melo & Amare

Had he faced these opponents, and beat them, multiple years, he would have been in the conversation vs. Jordan as the greatest of all time. But he didn't. Instead, he chose to think about himself, and his knees. He chose to look at the opposition, and how potentially difficult it would be to beat them, and chose to instead make it easier to win. He chose to look at management, and decided that they weren't active or effective enough to win a championship. Fair enough. He's his own man, and has to do what's best for him. But I'm a man as well, and believe that if he wanted to go, he should have facilitated it in a more private manner, particularly one that doesn't embarrass and cripple a sports franchise and their loyal fans. As a man, LeBron should have met with the owner of the franchise and said in his own words that he wanted to take his talents to South Beach. That's how men do things, face to face, eye to eye. Certain types of men, I guess I should say. Forgive me for believing he should have put pressure on himself to make the decision sooner, before the draft and/or before the end of the free agency period. Had Cleveland known he wanted to leave, they could have made some moves to keep themselves competitive. When he left, it effectively ended their season. And I don't care about Gilbert's I'll worded and highly criticized letter to the fans where he called James' actions cowardly and the like. I can understand both the criticism and how he felt. Is he the best owner in the NBA? I highly doubt it. Is he as active as many good owners/executives? Absolutely. I don't think Cleveland put LeBron in as bad of a scenario as many front offices do with their best players and teams. I would go as far to say that they tried, very hard to build around him, but, for whatever reason, they weren't able to gel enough to win it all. He should have retired a Cavalier, rings or not. If he was the greatest, he should have worn his knees to the bare cartilage for the burgundy and gold of his home state. And he should have been happy to do so. His pride stopped where his pain started. He's soft in my book for that. Always will be. I don't care how many rings he wins. He'll never be better than or equal to MJ. The decision was a showcase in what happens when you have no great peer advice available, because they're all on your payroll, family included.

I agree to this good post....

KnicksorBust
05-13-2011, 11:23 AM
Never overreacted, other than "The Decision" which was uncalled for, nothing he did should've even been deemed suspect. It was 100% fine, and the right move.

Loyalty doesn't exists in sports though. Winning talks. If your a winner they stay, if not, they leave.

In retrospect I'm not even sure that was such a bad thing. He raised what $3 million for the Boys and Girls Club? Imagine all the good things that money can be used to do... definately outweighs the effects of a bunch of pissy fanbases. Plus think of all the liquor stores who had a spike in business that night as well. He helped out the children and our economy.

THE MTL
05-13-2011, 11:26 AM
kobe was all talk he was never leavin he did wat he had to do to win rings and it got him at least 2 more. . .sure he is an *** hole but he is a laker as well


U want loyalty. . .steve nash, kobe, pierce, duncan. . .nuff said

What if the Lakers never got Gasol???? Yall forget how Chicago had a package prepared and refused to give up Luol Deng!

Yall, forgot how he got on youtube and trashed his teammate.

Yall, also forgot how Paul Pierce was on the BRINK of demanding a trade!

Steve Nash and Tim Duncan are the only TRUE TRUE loyal ones in the bunch. Steve Nash is currently wasting the last few years of his career on a team that clearly needs to rebuild and no longer can even make the playoffs.

Tim Duncan (while he's been winning) has truly sacrificed his game over the years for the betterment of the team as well as sacrificing alot of money in order for the Spurs to be more financially able.

THE MTL
05-13-2011, 11:32 AM
Lebron and Melo left their original teams bc they didnt win a ring at the end of their contract...whats stoppin them from doing it again? i dont want that kind of guy on my team, thinking if we dont win a championship in the next couple of years he will leave. Im sorry but the most impressive players are ones who can turn a team around instead of turning their backs on them. Those guys worked much harder to earn a championship. examples? Kobe, Wade, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan... Those guys are not just viewed as great players with rings but they are legends in their hometowns. Im sorry, but disloyal superstars like Lebron are only out for themselves, not for their team. If Lebron could (theoretically) win a ring all by himself with no teammates to share the glory with, he still would.

Before u throw names out there. Read up on Michael Jordan. He wasnt the nicest person at all. Not some glory loyal boy either. MJ was ALL ABOUT HIMSELF!

Kobe Bryant actually demanded a trade from the Lakers for two days. And eventually took it back. Pau Gasol then came and u know the rest....

And ur last statement is BS! Lebron (along with Wade/Bosh) said that this team is all about sacrifice! And Lebron sacrificed many aspects of his game in the beginning. Ur just a Lebron hater

Double_R
05-13-2011, 11:38 AM
I wish loyalty was more valued by NBA players these days.

I hate when people act like players from teams they are not fans of shouldn't be loyal, look at the list of most loyal stars in the NBA: Kobe: 5 rings, Duncan: 4 rings, Paul Pierce: 1 ring, hell even KG was loyal and the Twolves put him in position to win multiple rings, even though he only got 1, Dirk: no rings, but 1 finals, 11 straight playoffs and Dallas has made every attempt to help him.

Loyalty is one of the most respectable traits in the NBA.

camador22
05-13-2011, 11:50 AM
I wish loyalty was more valued by NBA players these days.

I hate when people act like players from teams they are not fans of shouldn't be loyal, look at the list of most loyal stars in the NBA: Kobe: 5 rings, Duncan: 4 rings, Paul Pierce: 1 ring, hell even KG was loyal and the Twolves put him in position to win multiple rings, even though he only got 1, Dirk: no rings, but 1 finals, 11 straight playoffs and Dallas has made every attempt to help him.

Loyalty is one of the most respectable traits in the NBA.

Not more then winning is. Lebron would have never beat the Celtics this season and had the opportunity to compete for a title if he didn't leave. He indeed made the right choice as would have anyone in his position with a bad franchise.

Arch Stanton
05-13-2011, 12:48 PM
James made some very matrue comments in the press conference following the victory over Boston, and apologized to Cleveland fans for how he had handled things. And with recent CBA news and the league trying to find a way to encourage players to be loyal to teams, couple with Bryant's comments, standing up for his team and their ability to compete, it seems the question of loyalty have come to the forfront of basketball.

That said, I thought it might be appropiate to have a conversation about loyalty, not jsut from the players to the teams, but the other way around as well, and also to fans, and in the context of potential CBA rules.

First I want to say, that even though I am not a fan of LBJ jumping over to Miami, or a fan of teams just picking up a bunch of hired guns to win them a title, I also have to say that how a team treats its players is important as well. Mark Cuban for example has twice let players who played very well for him go, once in Steve Nash, and again with Michael Finely. Though outside of that he has generally made an effort to treat his players well, and has been faithful to Dirk and has stood by him. He has however clearly had a rocky relationship to Don Nelson. Toronto, when Bosh came, saw some mild success under Sam Mitchell, but hired a new GM, fired Mitchell and then went on to make bad draft choices which hurt the team. Many fans overlook things like this. I dont know what Bosh relationship to Mitchell was like, but I know some players are very close to their coaches. Duncan stood up for Pop, and the Spurs have been loyal to fan, players and coaches alike, and in turn have seen success. The Lakers, when Kobe made it clear to them that he wanted to be on a winner, put together a winner around him and gave him the tools he needed to compete. Boston has also generally been very loyal to their players, even role players that come to them late in their careers (like Bill Walton), as well as Stars like Russell, Bird, Parish, McHale, among many others. They have had long rebuilding eras sometimes because they let star players retire and get nothing back for them, but they generally seem to be quite loyal.

In the media it seems that when it comes to loyalty, players are the only ones held accountable, whilst teams can fire good coaches at the drop of a dime, ship of aging stars, and just in general put a losing team on the floor because they dont want to spend the money needed to compete and would rather make a profit.

Just wondering what other fans thought on the issue of loyalty. It is complicated, but I think over all, too much is put on the shoulders of the players, and not enough on teams and coaches, and the ones who end up getting short end of the stick are the fans.

It's easier to apologize when your winning. A man is defined more when things DON'T go his way. And it's over 9 months too late. It also seemed like his apology was a backhand to the faces of all his former teammates that he essentially told the Cavs management to go after. James wanted Larry Hughes not Michael Redd or Ray Allen. He wanted Antawn and Mo. He could've had Stoudemire if he committed to the Cavs. Anyways, it doesn't matter anymore. He got what he wanted in Wade and Bosh.

ilovemyangel
05-13-2011, 01:50 PM
i honestly think LeBron is a good guy, sure he's cocky on the court sometimes, but who isn't? Yeap i know, only derrick rose isn't, right? fans from Chicago?

NBAfan4life
05-13-2011, 02:22 PM
Bosh, Lebron, and Wade knew they were going to meet up and sign in Miami. Lebron and Bosh sandbagged their franchises and got some worthless draft picks in trade for them.

I prefer how Melo handled his situation and consider him the more loyal player. At least Denver got something in return.

I'm not a fan of any the above mentioned players TBH.

mustaine
05-13-2011, 02:50 PM
I don't like LeBron at all but I never really did. Having said that, I have no problem with him leaving the Cavs, he's entitled to do what he wants, if he wants to play with two of his best friends (one of whom happens to be one of the three best players in the game) then so be it. He could have handled the whole thing differently though, he came out looking like a complete ego-maniac with the way he handled the whole thing. The Decision is one of the most cringeworthy things I've ever seen. But hey, that's how he rolls, didn't surprise me at all that he did it that way.

mdm692
05-13-2011, 04:58 PM
You forgot Dirk

yes i did my bad

mdm692
05-13-2011, 05:03 PM
Before u throw names out there. Read up on Michael Jordan. He wasnt the nicest person at all. Not some glory loyal boy either. MJ was ALL ABOUT HIMSELF!

Kobe Bryant actually demanded a trade from the Lakers for two days. And eventually took it back. Pau Gasol then came and u know the rest....

And ur last statement is BS! Lebron (along with Wade/Bosh) said that this team is all about sacrifice! And Lebron sacrificed many aspects of his game in the beginning. Ur just a Lebron hater

so if lbj said pigs fly u would believe him right?? Lbj is nothing just ridin passenger in wades team

ChicagoRox
05-13-2011, 05:17 PM
Loyalty < Money
Loyalty < Glory
Loyalty < Winning

Loyalty = Losing (For the most part)

Real sad but real true

Cal827
05-13-2011, 06:03 PM
Bosh, Lebron, and Wade knew they were going to meet up and sign in Miami. Lebron and Bosh sandbagged their franchises and got some worthless draft picks in trade for them.

I prefer how Melo handled his situation and consider him the more loyal player. At least Denver got something in return.

I'm not a fan of any the above mentioned players TBH.

I think this would only really apply to Lebron (since he probably the best NBA player in the League). Bosh is a very good player, but unfortunately he wasn't the franchise player that the GM though he would become (I'm a Raptor fan). These guys didn't have no-trade clauses: when the trade deadline was approaching and they still weren't resigned, bells should have gone off and they should have tried to deal them out. Now Lebron had a different scenario: his team was one of the best at that time and they would be ripped (both in the deal and the media) for dealing him out. Bosh on the other hand was on a team that although was creeping up on Boston for the division, had a schedule that contained a ton of really good teams last year to end the season. I'm pretty sure that some teams were making offers for him that would have been better than the TPE that probably won't be fully used and a late first rounder. But then again, this is the same GM that fired the coach when the team fell a game under .500 after a Western conference road trip and replaced him with a coach who doesn't know what defense is lol :facepalm:.

I must say, it's also nice to see that people are not going apes*it because Lebrons "Decision" was brought up. The only bad comments I see are against Kobe lol.

Just because someone leaves an environment where they are consistently losing doesn't necessarily mean they aren't loyal. These guys are athletes: they want to place themselves in a position to win. For example, when the Raptors won the Atlantic Division a few years back, Bosh resigned with Toronto. Had he tested free agency, I'm sure there were teams with Cap space that would have went after him. He thought that the team was developing into a future contender, but unfortunately for us it didn't happen.

While I can't speak for the Cavs (although I do believe they had a bunch of bad contracts), the Raptors were at their peak with Bosh last year. We couldn't defend, we have some bad contracts (Hedo, Bargs, Calderon) so we couldn't add anybody big, and the team was in turmoil (there was an apparent rift between the Europeans/Americans on the team. Had he resigned, our upside would be low; the farthest that we would probably go would be a first round thrashing by the Eastern Conference Elite over that contract. His departure was necessary for both parties (as now we can focus on shedding those contracts and rebuilding and he can play for a contender). Many Raptor fans recognized this, and that was why he got somewhat of an applause during his return (towards the end of the game).
For Lebron, it was brought up that they would have to deal with a bunch of strong teams had they kept Lebron (E.g. Bosh-Wade Miami, Amar'e-Melo New York, Rose-Boozer-Noah Chicago as well as Atlanta and Orlando), so I guess it could apply to him also.

In the end, the blame for most of the players leaving should go on the GMs/Coaches/Owners. But some try an fuel hatred for the departed player in order to save their own ***** and make money. For example, Gilbert's angry letter about Lebron to capitalize on hurt Cav fans and get them to unite under hate for Lebron (calling him a quitter) (Seriously, I've never seen a 60+ loss team almost sell out each game). Colangelo also called Bosh a quitter (Passive-Agressively) to anger the fans (had he not said them, Bosh would have likely received a standing ovation from the building in his return).

I can only think of two other players who's loyalty might be questioned. One is Boozer, as he left the Cavs (who were building for the future, as they just got Lebron) after initially agreeing to sign with them if they declined his option. The second is Elton Brand. (Didn't he decline his option in order for the Clippers to sign Davis, then resign him (since they would be allowed to sign him even if it meant they went over the cap), only to see him sign with the 76ers because they offered him a little more than the Clippers?) lol

Sixerlover
05-13-2011, 07:16 PM
If leaving a team in free agency, and "sandbagging" them by not letting them S&T you for anything is wrong, there are a lot of bad people in the NBA

Meloman
05-13-2011, 07:36 PM
I don't think we're in an age of loyalty. It used to just be the norm for stars to play their whole careers in one place, because generally if they were stars their team was good enough to win, in large part because they had the aforementioned stars. In today's league however, there is enough talent so that one star won't win anything alone. It's not like the old days where having Clyde Drexler on your team meant you'd make it to the 2nd round by default. Nowadays you HAVE to have a great supporting cast just to be in the mix. Therefore, when stars can't get that, they're missing the playoffs (see: Nash, Steve), so they don't wanna stay, or, they're expected to do more than they're capable of (see: James, LeBron). It's just how the league has developed.