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PHX2daDEATH
04-30-2011, 11:24 AM
Okay.. I want to know.. would you rather have Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford still with a deep team and a great bench or do you like your current situation of Melo and Amare with no bench?

Punk
04-30-2011, 11:34 AM
Melo and Amare easily....And how is it we don't have a bench? Our bench was 5th in the playoffs with 33 points per game. The bench just shot poorly.

jp611
04-30-2011, 11:40 AM
Melo and Amare easily....And how is it we don't have a bench? Our bench was 5th in the playoffs with 33 points per game. The bench just shot poorly.

only you would think that the bench wasnt awful

Yankeefan213
04-30-2011, 12:01 PM
I would definitely rather have what we have now. The bench will eventually develop. I'd definitely take 2 All-Stars over a solid bench.

PlezPlayDKnicks
04-30-2011, 12:02 PM
only you would think that the bench wasnt awful

Most NBA benches that are forced to play extended minutes usually falter..
Now to answer the OP's question, I'd rather the Amare Melo combo only because the big picture is to land one more max guy. We can see that solid vets will flock to star trio's . Mia is truly one big man away from being a dynasty. I think we can follow that blueprint and net us some cheap ring chasers ... I wasn't a fan of the Melo trade but a plan is in place.. It's just a lot more difficult now. I'm happy for Randolph and Craw but I wouldn't build around them. They have great peices that cover their flaws and have really bought into their team systems. they had really awful habits while with us. I wish them the best

NYtilIdie
04-30-2011, 12:08 PM
Melo and Amare, easily.

¿QUE?
04-30-2011, 12:16 PM
Finding a bench is a lot easier then finding a superstar so i would choose what we have now

ImThatDude
04-30-2011, 12:17 PM
You're asking about a team that went 23–59?, oh the glory days.

allSUAVE
04-30-2011, 12:17 PM
I love Melo and Amare.

we are not a finish product yet man, you cant really judge us of this year to be honest

allSUAVE
04-30-2011, 12:19 PM
Finding a bench is a lot easier then finding a superstar so i would choose what we have now

thank you

PHX2daDEATH
04-30-2011, 12:26 PM
Well Mike D is notorious for squeezing his players rotation wise..., thats one reason I hated him when he was coaching the Suns, i was just thinking if Zach was playing like he has the last couple of years in Memphis, his value is just as good if not better then Amare's..He's certainly a better rebounder and its looking like he's developed into a better leader and who's to say another Star is going to turn you guys into title contenders? I Think Chris Paul is the only answer that solves NY's title drought..but then you have to solve Amare and Melo's domination of the ball

J4KOP99
04-30-2011, 12:26 PM
This is the most ridiculous thing... people keep forgetting just how unmotivated Z-Bo was when he was in NYC. What they had was far from a team. Those guys just went out and played. They had no gameplan, no coaching and what seemed like no worries.

Any smart Knicks fan would want what they currently have. The Knicks weren't going anywhere but down if they would have kept that old roster. It was a ****ing joke.

BigBlueCrew
04-30-2011, 12:27 PM
Melo and Amare easy

knickerbockerny
04-30-2011, 12:33 PM
This is a question that is not that easy to answer. If the former players on that team would have blossomed the way they have on other teams, I would go with the team with Z-Bo and Craw.

Basically if the 08-09 Knicks could somehow someway progress without getting in each others way, or egos clashing, motivated I would go with them. That team would be one of the deepest in the league with two all-star players in Lee and Randolph.

C David Lee
PF Zach Randolph
SF Danilo Gallinari
SG Wilson Chandler
PG Jamal Crawford

Bench
Eddy Curry
Quentin Richardson
Chris Duhon
Nate Robinson
Jarred Jeffries
Malik Rose

Add in the 09 first rounder and you never know. But I'm in a comfortable place with the current Knicks team and like the progress that is being made.

PHX2daDEATH
04-30-2011, 12:34 PM
You're asking about a team that went 23–59?, oh the glory days.

I'm talking about now 2011..you've saved money.. you build a collective solid team with no real superstar(atleast media wise) you add glue guys, guys that do certain things well.. Kinda like the knicks teams with Sprewell, Camby and Houston..and kinda like what Memphis has done.... I should of used them as an example as they were your last real 'glory days' .. Me personally.. I just dont see Amare and Melo working together unless you have premier point guard that takes pressure off those two.. They are both alpha dogs..they need the ball in their hands..much different then Le'Bron and Wade who are unselfish, but I suspect the Celtics will expose the Heat just like they did the Knicks in that you need 3 superstars who are DIFFERENT and not alike..

29$JerZ
04-30-2011, 12:37 PM
Zach/Jamal never led us to anything.
They both benefit from better situations. Zach actually has a C to defend the paint and other scorers like Gay/Mayo near him. Compare that to when he had Eddy in the paint doing nothing, and Q/Steph/Jamal chucking shots up. Jamal I always liked as a player but he doesn't play Defense. He benefits from being around guys like Joe J/Horford/Smith and coming off the bench no less.

Melo + Amar'e > Jamal/Zach

Melo + Amar'e with a legit Center > Jamal/Zach with a legit Center

PHX2daDEATH
04-30-2011, 12:39 PM
This is the most ridiculous thing... people keep forgetting just how unmotivated Z-Bo was when he was in NYC. What they had was far from a team. Those guys just went out and played. They had no gameplan, no coaching and what seemed like no worries.

Any smart Knicks fan would want what they currently have. The Knicks weren't going anywhere but down if they would have kept that old roster. It was a ****ing joke.

Well look who you had coaching them...a PISTON.. in retro-spect dont you think Isiah was to blame for not getting the most of those guys... and not being able to dig down and get the most out of Z-bo...He's certainly matured since he left New York..did anybody know who Lionel Hollins was before this series? Lemme tell you the guy is a great coach.. he was on a great portland team in the 70's.. he was an assistant in Phoenix the year Sir Charles took us to the Finals..and ever since he took over Memphis..they've gone from playing a lot like those Knicks teams to playing with fire and passion

J4KOP99
04-30-2011, 12:44 PM
Well look who you had coaching them...a PISTON.. in retro-spect dont you think Isiah was to blame for not getting the most of those guys... and not being able to dig down and get the most out of Z-bo...He's certainly matured since he left New York..did anybody know who Lionel Hollins was before this series? Lemme tell you the guy is a great coach.. he was on a great portland team in the 70's.. he was an assistant in Phoenix the year Sir Charles took us to the Finals..and ever since he took over Memphis..they've gone from playing a lot like those Knicks teams to playing with fire and passion

Tell me whatever you want to tell me...

The Knicks team you're talking about had no chance of ever being a title contender. Even if someone who was coaching them still got the most out of that roster, it wouldn't be good enough. They would still be incredibly undersized.

Lee and Randolph as your frontline? Neither play defense and both are undersized.

Crawford struggles on D too.

This team isn't getting anywhere close to beating any of the elite squads of today or a few years ago.

-This is just a ridiculous over-exaggeration due to how Randolph has been playing.

PHX2daDEATH
04-30-2011, 12:50 PM
and I keep hearing well.. "Zach has this in memphis.. and Jamal has this in Atlanta".. Hey guess what they are both in the 2nd round..what I'm saying is..if they had stayed and the knicks didn't go for glitz and glamour and built a solid 12 man team with a coach who knows how to win and get the most out of his players and hold them accountable.. would the knicks be better off right now? does it say anything that Gallo and Will and Ray were winning more games then Melo and Amare in the regular season after the trade? and that the nuggets future might just be as good as the knicks for the next 5 years?

PHX2daDEATH
04-30-2011, 12:58 PM
Tell me whatever you want to tell me...

The Knicks team you're talking about had no chance of ever being a title contender. Even if someone who was coaching them still got the most out of that roster, it wouldn't be good enough. They would still be incredibly undersized.

Lee and Randolph as your frontline? Neither play defense and both are undersized.

Crawford struggles on D too.

This team isn't getting anywhere close to beating any of the elite squads of today or a few years ago.

-This is just a ridiculous over-exaggeration due to how Randolph has been playing.

and the current knicks team plays defense though right? Melo and Amare are First team defenders? Amare, cannot defend, I dont care if he averaged 2 blks a game this year..Zach meanwhile instilled a Garnett like attitude on the Grizzlies TEAM defense this year.. a Zach/Lee Combo would mean outrebounding the other team every night almost..if you have extra possesions you can get away with average defense..

Weezy
04-30-2011, 01:04 PM
and the current knicks team plays defense though right? Melo and Amare are First team defenders? Amare, cannot defend, I dont care if he averaged 2 blks a game this year..Zach meanwhile instilled a Garnett like attitude on the Grizzlies TEAM defense this year.. a Zach/Lee Combo would mean outrebounding the other team every night almost..if you have extra possesions you can get away with average defense..

Wow. No.

They are playing team defense because of their coach.. NOT because of Zach.

J4KOP99
04-30-2011, 01:05 PM
Wow. No.

They are playing team defense because of their coach.. NOT because of Zach.

Some people are not worth arguing with.

29$JerZ
04-30-2011, 01:09 PM
and I keep hearing well.. "Zach has this in memphis.. and Jamal has this in Atlanta".. Hey guess what they are both in the 2nd round..what I'm saying is..if they had stayed and the knicks didn't go for glitz and glamour and built a solid 12 man team with a coach who knows how to win and get the most out of his players and hold them accountable.. would the knicks be better off right now? does it say anything that Gallo and Will and Ray were winning more games then Melo and Amare in the regular season after the trade? and that the nuggets future might just be as good as the knicks for the next 5 years?

Nothing you said makes any sort of sense.

Both in the 2nd round?
That's thanks to the fact Memphis has collected enough talent in the draft to put around Zach to succeed. Conley/Mayo/Gay/Gasol/Aruthr. That's an awesome core to build off of. Couldn't of had that in NY, never were terrible enough to build through the draft when Zach was here.

Jamal is a 6th man. In Ny he was a starter. That's why he did nothing here.
In Atlanta where he could fit in easier with good players around him and against weaker bench units he is doing a fantastic job.

Wilson/Gallo/Felton went to a team that only had to give up 2 legit starters and have a system already in place they could play in. Compared to Melo/Billups who are completely different player to what Mike has had and the system he implemented here. So again, what your saying makes no sense. Denver didn't gut their roster and have to deal with the adjustment period, NY did.

NY was not going anywhere with Jamal/Zach. Have a shot with Melo/Amar'e.
That's a fact.

Weezy
04-30-2011, 01:10 PM
Some people are not worth arguing with.

If he was living in NY under the darkest era of the franchise under Isiah.. he would never make a thread like this.

Tanakid777
04-30-2011, 01:13 PM
and the current knicks team plays defense though right? Melo and Amare are First team defenders? Amare, cannot defend, I dont care if he averaged 2 blks a game this year.Lionel Hollins and Tony Allen, meanwhile, instilled a Garnett like attitude on the Grizzlies TEAM defense this year.. a Zach/Lee Combo would mean outrebounding the other team every night almost..if you have extra possesions you can get away with average defense..


Fixed

hotpotato1092
04-30-2011, 01:13 PM
I'm a little annoyed that we couldn't find a way to make it work with Randolph and then just gave him up for nothing, but I like what we have now.

Hoopsadvocate
04-30-2011, 01:16 PM
Melo and Amare easily....And how is it we don't have a bench? Our bench was 5th in the playoffs with 33 points per game. The bench just shot poorly.

:facepalm:

The reason they were 5th in points is because they played the majority of the time because of the injuries. The poor shooting indicates u dont have a bench. Dont try to spin it any other way.

jimm120
04-30-2011, 01:17 PM
Okay.. I want to know.. would you rather have Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford still with a deep team and a great bench or do you like your current situation of Melo and Amare with no bench?

Look the problem we had wasn't necessarily Randolph and Crawford, it was all of the bloated contracts.

The Knicks, just like the Rangers, Mets, and Yanks, just kept on adding and adding contracts to "fix holes". At the end of the day, we had a collection of subpar players with a salary around 90 million. That's just not good.

I would have thought we'd get more from trading Randolph and Jamal (at least a future first round pick from 2010 or 2011), but that didn't happen. we only got 2010 expirings.


But what DOnnie did was something I was LONGING for for a long time. I wanted the Knicks to rebuild. To me, a team like the Knicks being able to rebuild, they'd rebuild to be an awesome team...because its not just "rebuild", but rebuild and WISELY use up the money.

Look at the Mets right now. They have a 142 million payroll and to "fix" small spots, they'd have to spend large. Now just imagine if they're able to strip the team of all of that dead waste contract and start over. Just start over with a payroll of 30 million and get back up to 150 million. They'd be able to rebuild a better 140 million club than what they're using the 142 million for right now.

29$JerZ
04-30-2011, 01:17 PM
NY's bench sucks

Toney/Carter/Williams/Walker are decent/good
That's it though
No front court depth in the least

Hoopsadvocate
04-30-2011, 01:19 PM
and the current knicks team plays defense though right? Melo and Amare are First team defenders? Amare, cannot defend, I dont care if he averaged 2 blks a game this year..Zach meanwhile instilled a Garnett like attitude on the Grizzlies TEAM defense this year.. a Zach/Lee Combo would mean outrebounding the other team every night almost..if you have extra possesions you can get away with average defense..

LMAO!!!! ya it wasnt their coach or tony allen. I have seen randolph make a defensive move or read or heard about him on tv being any sort of defensive presence. But ur right hes their garnett lol.

Evolution23
04-30-2011, 08:20 PM
2-3 years with Zach and Jamal got us 23-32 wins and never a post season.

1 season with Amare and .5 season with Melo and we're back in the playoffs. I'll take Melo and Amare.

Evolution23
04-30-2011, 08:22 PM
Well look who you had coaching them...a PISTON.. in retro-spect dont you think Isiah was to blame for not getting the most of those guys... and not being able to dig down and get the most out of Z-bo...He's certainly matured since he left New York..did anybody know who Lionel Hollins was before this series? Lemme tell you the guy is a great coach.. he was on a great portland team in the 70's.. he was an assistant in Phoenix the year Sir Charles took us to the Finals..and ever since he took over Memphis..they've gone from playing a lot like those Knicks teams to playing with fire and passion

hey remember when Larry Brown was Coaching the knicks and they still sucked? that just shows you it was the players not the coach.

Khalifa21
04-30-2011, 08:27 PM
What a silly question... Melo & Amar'e easily.

vickaz07
04-30-2011, 08:37 PM
Is this question a joke? Knicks won at most 23 games with Z-Bo and Crawford. With Amare for a full season and Melo half a season -- they won 42 games. With both of them for a full year with Billups they a most likely a 50 win team.

KnicksR4Real
04-30-2011, 08:50 PM
Melo and Amare easily....And how is it we don't have a bench? Our bench was 5th in the playoffs with 33 points per game. The bench just shot poorly.

Our bench is pretty bad my man.

allSUAVE
04-30-2011, 09:04 PM
we have the worst bench in the nba. I give y'all that

PHX2daDEATH
04-30-2011, 09:06 PM
hey remember when Larry Brown was Coaching the knicks and they still sucked? that just shows you it was the players not the coach.

Larry Brown also failed to take a star studded Olympic team to a gold medal.. this was just a simple question, Because of the player Randolph has become since he left NYK...obviously Zach never had the support of the coaches and fans in New York and thats probably why those teams never did anything.. I was curious to see if Knicks fans were sitting there watching Randolph impose his low-post grit on the Spurs and what was going through their minds as they have two individualistic, me-first Stars on their team who'll never work together be it by injury or chemistry because they are two much alike..Amare couldn't share the spotlight with Steve Nash of all people and now you expect him to do it with Carmelo Anthony? I'm curious of to know how old all of you guys are that are saying you'd rather have Melo and Amare over a team of gritty defensive glue guys with Randolph as the centerpiece..

jzero
04-30-2011, 09:18 PM
zbo>stat

ne3xchamps
04-30-2011, 09:35 PM
Finding a bench is a lot easier then finding a superstar so i would choose what we have now

agreed. what kind of dumb*** question is this?

PlezPlayDKnicks
04-30-2011, 10:07 PM
zbo>stat

Stat>Bosh....

NYK4L
04-30-2011, 10:08 PM
STAT & MELO aaalllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll l day.

nycericanguy
04-30-2011, 10:53 PM
Zbo is the flavor of the month, he;s quickly becoming overrated. I'm sorry but what has happened in MEM is not all because of zbo, MEM was under .500 last season with him zbo. what changed?

Tony Allen and Hollins have instilled a defensive mindset on that team, and the Battier trade as well. He's played well and MEM is having a great season winning 46 games, but I guarantee you MEM will be regretting that contract in a couple of years.

vickaz07
04-30-2011, 10:59 PM
Zach Randolph was extremely productive on the Knicks -- he got his points/ rebounds.

17-10 year 1
20-12 year 2

That team was simply poor chemistry, poor coaching -- it was just a mess

STAT AND MELO!

vickaz07
04-30-2011, 11:00 PM
And yes - Knicks bench is easily worst in the NBA.

ohreally
05-01-2011, 01:10 AM
and the current knicks team plays defense though right? Melo and Amare are First team defenders? Amare, cannot defend, I dont care if he averaged 2 blks a game this year..Zach meanwhile instilled a Garnett like attitude on the Grizzlies TEAM defense this year.. a Zach/Lee Combo would mean outrebounding the other team every night almost..if you have extra possesions you can get away with average defense..

Exactly right. I'm in a distinct minority on this among Knick fans, but I never understood the plan. The typical Knicks fan likes to rag on Randolph's time in New York, but really his one main year was a total disaster, Curry was exposed for what he was, Marbury was totally whacked and we basically had no point guard, Q was hurt, Thomas had been convicted of sexual harassment.

Once Thomas was let go the Knicks hired Walsh who then hire D'Antoni and they drafted Gallinari. Gallo didn't really play much the next year since he hurt his back during summer league.

At the beginning of the year the Knicks, with Lee and Randolph and Crawford and Chandler and Duhon were looking pretty good, and Randolph and Lee were looking very nice together in preseason and in the regular season, even with Lee underperforming for a good stretch of the regular season games due to a shoulder injury.

Even with Galo not playing much that year it's not at all beyond reason to believe that the Knicks could have made the playoffs that year; Philly had the #6 spot with a .500 record.

Your players always look better when they've made the playoffs. But going into the offseason the smart pick would have obviously have been a point guard in a point-guard rich draft. With who was on the board when we picked Jrue Holiday should have been an obvious pick since we needed more height in the backcourt, and any defense we could get.

So leaving aside what was our bought later 1st round pick (which could have been Meeks or a risk big like Mullens), we should have had Lee, Randolph, Gallo, Chandler, Holiday, Crawford, N8, Duhon, QRich, Jeffries. Without any trades whatsoever. I don't think that was a bad starting point whatsoever. Offensively we would be nicely balanced with Lee and Randolph inside, Lee's pasing, a true young point, Gallo and Crawford and even QRich outside. Way more balanced than what we ave now. And as you say, we don't play defense now so how anyone can say we didn't play defense then is more than slightly inane, and again, as you point out, rebounding is defense.

I'd gladly bet on this "old team" in a head-to-head battle with our "new team" right now. And we would have more draft picks in hand right now and would have a series of expirings (expirings well worth something because many of them would have been producers).

We would be a much more settled and complete team now, and with some prudent trades we could actually be very good. Now, we have two offensive stars, no young point guard, no real rebounders, still no real big, and absolutely no bench--barely a starting five really.

The plan was a waste of three years and counting, and wasted at least two years of players' careers. And it has us worse off than we would have been without it. But hey, we have a few "names" and Dolan can see fit to ack up ticket prices despite it all.

Hellcrooner
05-01-2011, 01:19 AM
are grizz wining a ring soon with this roster?
NO
would Crawford and Zach lead Knicks to a ring.?
NO
Melo and stou for themselves wiht no help can lead them to a ring?
NO

Melo and Stou with the HELP they will get can get a ring?
Yes "CAN" Will? Maybe.
Would be nice if they grabbed Marc Gasol in the way to it.
IN teh end its my second fav team :p

Hellcrooner
05-01-2011, 01:22 AM
Zbo is the flavor of the month, he;s quickly becoming overrated. I'm sorry but what has happened in MEM is not all because of zbo, MEM was under .500 last season with him zbo. what changed?Tony Allen and Hollins have instilled a defensive mindset on that team, and the Battier trade as well. He's played well and MEM is having a great season winning 46 games, but I guarantee you MEM will be regretting that contract in a couple of years.

added good players like Battier, Henry, Vaszquz and SPECIALLY TONY ALLEN.

Also 1 of the two blakcholes ( Gay and Randolph) went down.

Teams with enough TALENT COnley, Mayo, Battier, YOung, Marc will always do Better if there is only one greedy chuker in the team than if they have TWO of them.

One cant completley disrupt an offense, two can completely destroy it.

Zach has become hte MOST overated player not only now but EVER:

ohreally
05-01-2011, 01:23 AM
Zbo is the flavor of the month, he;s quickly becoming overrated. I'm sorry but what has happened in MEM is not all because of zbo, MEM was under .500 last season with him zbo. what changed?

Tony Allen and Hollins have instilled a defensive mindset on that team, and the Battier trade as well. He's played well and MEM is having a great season winning 46 games, but I guarantee you MEM will be regretting that contract in a couple of years.

You mean when we're regretting Amare's? ZBO is trash because he's playing well with an improved roster around him? Well, that's a good one.

And they've also been playing better while missing Gay. I remember last year most of the Knicks' forum saying ZBO was the fourth best guy on the team las year, below Gasol, Mayo, and Gay. I think Hollins would argue that assessment.

Mark Jackson, who many on the Knicks forum would like to see as the Knick coach was saying how good Randolph was even before last year, as was Jeff Van Gundy, another guy many Knick fans would like to see as coach. ZBO may be getting some positive attention for a change, but he's been beasting for a while now, and he may be sharing the ball now, but he was already showing that willingness, at least with Lee, on the Knicks.

ohreally
05-01-2011, 01:34 AM
added good players like Battier, Henry, Vaszquz and SPECIALLY TONY ALLEN.

Also 1 of the two blakcholes ( Gay and Randolph) went down.

Teams with enough TALENT COnley, Mayo, Battier, YOung, Marc will always do Better if there is only one greedy chuker in the team than if they have TWO of them.

One cant completley disrupt an offense, two can completely destroy it.

Zach has become hte MOST overated player not only now but EVER:

If Randolph is a black hole, so is Melo. So do we have two greedy chuckers (not even counting Toney) and are therefore doomed to failure?

(And Henry has been out since early February as well.)

What I love is that Randolph really has a physical/punishing offensive style, something Knick fans always seem to yearn for, yet the guy is always trashed. Zach may have been the most under-rated guy regularly averaged around 20/10. Even if we accept that there is some irrational exuberance going on for him now, he deserves it after having been unduly trashed for so long. And no, even with that exuberance he is not anywhere near the most over-rated player right now.

phoenix_bladen
05-01-2011, 01:36 AM
no question i would rather have melo and amare

OP are you nuts?

tell me which GM in the league would take z-bo and crawford over melo and amare for the same money ???

ohreally
05-01-2011, 01:43 AM
2-3 years with Zach and Jamal got us 23-32 wins and never a post season.

1 season with Amare and .5 season with Melo and we're back in the playoffs. I'll take Melo and Amare.

Zach's full year was on the heels of Isiah's conviction, Eddy Curry went totally haywire, Marbury impolded and went bats__t, QRich was hurt, we had no point guard.

Even with Gallo not playing and Lee playing hurt and well below himself for six games in the early season before the trade we were above .500. I think we would have made the playoffs that year, and I'm pretty sure we would have made the playoffs last year after drafting a real young point guard.

Bulls_fan90
05-01-2011, 01:55 AM
Knicks forum?

ohreally
05-01-2011, 01:55 AM
no question i would rather have melo and amare

OP are you nuts?

tell me which GM in the league would take z-bo and crawford over melo and amare for the same money ???

ZBO, Crawford, and a team around them, rather than Amare, Melo, and no team.

And ZBO is making roughly what Melo is making this year, but Crawford is making well below what Amare is, so no, it's not each pair at identical salaries.

Personally, if my PF isn't a standout defender he damned well better rebound.

roshan3ai
05-01-2011, 02:21 AM
Melo and Amare 100 times out of 100

Evolution23
05-01-2011, 06:51 AM
Larry Brown also failed to take a star studded Olympic team to a gold medal.. this was just a simple question, Because of the player Randolph has become since he left NYK...obviously Zach never had the support of the coaches and fans in New York and thats probably why those teams never did anything.. I was curious to see if Knicks fans were sitting there watching Randolph impose his low-post grit on the Spurs and what was going through their minds as they have two individualistic, me-first Stars on their team who'll never work together be it by injury or chemistry because they are two much alike..Amare couldn't share the spotlight with Steve Nash of all people and now you expect him to do it with Carmelo Anthony? I'm curious of to know how old all of you guys are that are saying you'd rather have Melo and Amare over a team of gritty defensive glue guys with Randolph as the centerpiece..

U sounds mad but I'll answer your question. I'm 25 been a knick fan since I was in diapers. I've seen it all through the years from Patrick Ewing era to the Isiah years. Zach Randolph was always known as a black hole whichever team he was on, thats why he constantly got traded. Now with the Grizzlies he fits much better because he has really deep team at every position. Grizzlies bench is pretty dam good too. Crawford is no more than a role player everyone knows that. He's fun to watch and hes one of the top clutch performers in the NBA. But he's no allstar.

Your saying Amare couldn't share the spot light with Nash? Thats why Amare had no problem with Nash getting 2 MVPs? I dont remember Amare complaining about touches or anything, both players complimented each other. Also Amare was one suspension away from getting to the finals and from there anything could've happened.

Now Amare got the Knicks to the finals, which Randolph never was able to do with the knicks. He did that himself with a few role players like CHandler, Gallo, and Felton. Zach Randolph had 23 wins with the knicks, Amare had 42. Amare had to adjust to the roster midway through the season with basically a whole new team since they were gutted.

Melo is now the face of the Knicks, we all know that. A top scorer and great rebounder. He played his heart out in the playoffs this year and knicks might have put up a better fight if they were at full strength. When 2 of your top 3 guys go out you can't expect a team to win, especially against a top team like the celtics.

So would I bring back Zach to the Knicks instead of AMare? Hell no.
Would i bring back Crawford instead of Melo? no even gona answer that.

dodie53
05-01-2011, 07:36 AM
i like the current knicks team

PrettyBoyJ
05-01-2011, 08:23 AM
I;m pretty happy with what we have now.. Honestly a team with z-Bo and crawford wouldnt get far especially with Big 3s forming every where..

nycericanguy
05-01-2011, 09:05 AM
You mean when we're regretting Amare's? ZBO is trash because he's playing well with an improved roster around him? Well, that's a good one.

And they've also been playing better while missing Gay. I remember last year most of the Knicks' forum saying ZBO was the fourth best guy on the team las year, below Gasol, Mayo, and Gay. I think Hollins would argue that assessment.

Mark Jackson, who many on the Knicks forum would like to see as the Knick coach was saying how good Randolph was even before last year, as was Jeff Van Gundy, another guy many Knick fans would like to see as coach. ZBO may be getting some positive attention for a change, but he's been beasting for a while now, and he may be sharing the ball now, but he was already showing that willingness, at least with Lee, on the Knicks.


Yea that Amare contract scares me as well... and yes I think in 2 years NY might be regretting it...but where did I say zbo was trash? :confused: theres nothing worse than someone completely making things up to try to make a point. I never once said or insinuated that zbo was "trash", in fact I said "he's played well"...so quite the opposite.

PHX2daDEATH
05-01-2011, 05:19 PM
i watched Amare throughout the Nash years.. he never came out and actually said that he didnt like being the #2 guy but you could always tell he wanted to be the #1 in terms of leadership and not playbook....now he's back to #2 w/ Melo or atleast sharing it and i dont see it happening...two guys who would talk in the 3rd person cannot do that. IMO Amare could of easily taken MVP in 04-05 if he had just averaged double digit rebounds.. something he cannot seem to do in his career, with all the talent he has, he'll never do it..Meanwhile Zach cant jump over a water bottle but on any given night can get you..10, 15 or even 18 rebounds .. does that say anything about the difference in wills between these two? the Reason i asked for ages is, if I were a knick fan i'd be yearning for players that mirrored Oakley and Mason and Starks, who weren't afraid to get down and dirty, who had an attitude and a swagger.. one of the reasons why I started the thread in the first place, Zach fits that old school criteria..

KnicksR4Real
05-01-2011, 05:36 PM
Easier to find a bench

RedRicanoBx
05-01-2011, 05:42 PM
What we have now easily, Zbo is great just didnt fit for us.... now crawford... i hope we can sign him in the offseason lol :)

nycericanguy
05-01-2011, 05:42 PM
i watched Amare throughout the Nash years.. he never came out and actually said that he didnt like being the #2 guy but you could always tell he wanted to be the #1 in terms of leadership and not playbook....now he's back to #2 w/ Melo or atleast sharing it and i dont see it happening...two guys who would talk in the 3rd person cannot do that. IMO Amare could of easily taken MVP in 04-05 if he had just averaged double digit rebounds.. something he cannot seem to do in his career, with all the talent he has, he'll never do it..Meanwhile Zach cant jump over a water bottle but on any given night can get you..10, 15 or even 18 rebounds .. does that say anything about the difference in wills between these two? the Reason i asked for ages is, if I were a knick fan i'd be yearning for players that mirrored Oakley and Mason and Starks, who weren't afraid to get down and dirty, who had an attitude and a swagger.. one of the reasons why I started the thread in the first place, Zach fits that old school criteria..

we are, we need a guy like that. But Z-Bo isn't and wasn't that guy. Just because you rebound doesn't mean you're gritty or mean. Zbo isn't a good defender. David Lee averaged 12rpg but he wasn't a good defender either.

NY needs a good defensive player up front. Like a Reggie Evans or even a Robin Lopez just to name a couple of cheap possibilities.

Amare isn't a great rebounder but at the end of the day he will still get you 9rpg or so. Is there really a huge difference between 9 & 10? Melo will get you 7rpg and with the knicks he was actually getting around 8-10 per game. So between those 2 guys you have enough rebounding up front. Melo is actually one of the better rebounding SF's in the game, and Fields is one of the better rebounding SG's in the league.

Bottom line is rebounding isn't our biggest problem, we need a BIG body that can bang on defense. Amare cannot play center, at least not permanently.

Kashmir13579
05-01-2011, 06:32 PM
Its a tough question. one one hand, look at what Jamal and Zach are doing for their teams this year. on the other hand, an Isiah "cleansing" was definitely in order. there is nothing left from the Isiah years and that does feel great.

Tuck&Rolle
05-01-2011, 06:54 PM
Much happier with what we have. Now it's time to build around Melo and Stat and I am very confident Walsh will have no problem doing that. I just dont like our coach but hopefully i'm wrong about him.

ohreally
05-01-2011, 07:21 PM
we are, we need a guy like that. But Z-Bo isn't and wasn't that guy. Just because you rebound doesn't mean you're gritty or mean. Zbo isn't a good defender. David Lee averaged 12rpg but he wasn't a good defender either.

NY needs a good defensive player up front. Like a Reggie Evans or even a Robin Lopez just to name a couple of cheap possibilities.

Amare isn't a great rebounder but at the end of the day he will still get you 9rpg or so. Is there really a huge difference between 9 & 10? Melo will get you 7rpg and with the knicks he was actually getting around 8-10 per game. So between those 2 guys you have enough rebounding up front. Melo is actually one of the better rebounding SF's in the game, and Fields is one of the better rebounding SG's in the league.

Bottom line is rebounding isn't our biggest problem, we need a BIG body that can bang on defense. Amare cannot play center, at least not permanently.


On a 36 minute basis Zach averaged 12.1 bounds and Amare averaged 8, so yeah, 4.1 more per game is pretty big. And Zach was playing beside Gasol, Amare was playing D'Antoni ball with what other rebounder? With the Knicks Melo averaged 6.7 per 36 minutes.

I'll say it again, I'll take Holiday as the draft pick we should have made last year and take the rest of the Knicks lineup (minus Marbury) from the point of the trade and gladly play a series against the Knicks tam as it exists now. And that is without any other picks or trades. We would have made at least some trades and additions and probably stil bought a 2nd pick last year, and we would have more picks going forward than we have now.

We have two frontcourt guys that don't play any real defense and are considerably worse rebounders than the two front court players we had who didn't play defense. We would have a shooting guard, a young point, then Gallo and Chandler. Except that we probably would have had Chandler and somebody included in a trade for a big. We currently need a strong defensive big who is also a strong rebounder, not many of them around, ever. We need a young point guard. We need an entire bench. How exactly are we better off? Because we have better "names" now?

knickerbockerny
05-01-2011, 07:41 PM
On a 36 minute basis Zach averaged 12.1 bounds and Amare averaged 8, so yeah, 4.1 more per game is pretty big. And Zach was playing beside Gasol, Amare was playing D'Antoni ball with what other rebounder? With the Knicks Melo averaged 6.7 per 36 minutes.

I'll say it again, I'll take Holiday as the draft pick we should have made last year and take the rest of the Knicks lineup (minus Marbury) from the point of the trade and gladly play a series against the Knicks tam as it exists now. And that is without any other picks or trades. We would have made at least some trades and additions and probably stil bought a 2nd pick last year, and we would have more picks going forward than we have now.

We have two frontcourt guys that don't play any real defense and are considerably worse rebounders than the two front court players we had who didn't play defense. We would have a shooting guard, a young point, then Gallo and Chandler. Except that we probably would have had Chandler and somebody included in a trade for a big. We currently need a strong defensive big who is also a strong rebounder, not many of them around, ever. We need a young point guard. We need an entire bench. How exactly are we better off? Because we have better "names" now?

I agree with most of if not everything you said. The Knicks in the last three seasons was as mismanaged as the first 7 of the decade.

But thinking about the past mistakes only gives me a headache, because I can't re-do a move, a trade or selection. The silver lining is that the Knicks have Amare and Melo, coupled with one of the biggest expirings next season in Billups.

I'm in the minority but I am not too optimistic that the Knicks have enough to acquire, CP3, D Howard, or DWill, so the Knicks need to move as if they will not acquire them.

Build the team now!!! Trade for players who's stock is down (OJ Mayo) and use Billups's expiring to get Al Jefferson or another center on a deal similar to Billups who can grab 10rbs per and score at least 10pts per.

Draft the best available pg. Go from there!!

nycericanguy
05-01-2011, 08:02 PM
On a 36 minute basis Zach averaged 12.1 bounds and Amare averaged 8, so yeah, 4.1 more per game is pretty big. And Zach was playing beside Gasol, Amare was playing D'Antoni ball with what other rebounder? With the Knicks Melo averaged 6.7 per 36 minutes.

I'll say it again, I'll take Holiday as the draft pick we should have made last year and take the rest of the Knicks lineup (minus Marbury) from the point of the trade and gladly play a series against the Knicks tam as it exists now. And that is without any other picks or trades. We would have made at least some trades and additions and probably stil bought a 2nd pick last year, and we would have more picks going forward than we have now.

We have two frontcourt guys that don't play any real defense and are considerably worse rebounders than the two front court players we had who didn't play defense. We would have a shooting guard, a young point, then Gallo and Chandler. Except that we probably would have had Chandler and somebody included in a trade for a big. We currently need a strong defensive big who is also a strong rebounder, not many of them around, ever. We need a young point guard. We need an entire bench. How exactly are we better off? Because we have better "names" now?

I wasn't directly comparing the two, but you're taking Zbo who had a career year and comparing it to Amare who had one of his worst if not worst rebounding seasons so yea it looks bad.

No ones going to argue Zbo isn't a better rebounder, but career wise they are actually both around 9 per game.

As for Melo his rebounds really went up as he got acclimated with NY. Over the last month he was at 8+ per game and in the post season at 10+ per game. I can def see him averaging 7-9 next season.

its easy to say what ANY team "could have had" in hindsight. I mean you can take pretty much every team in the NBA and magically build a contender if you go back 3-5 years and play the "what if" game... things just don't work that way.

sunsfan88
05-01-2011, 08:57 PM
Zach/Jamal never led us to anything.
They both benefit from better situations. Zach actually has a C to defend the paint and other scorers like Gay/Mayo near him. Compare that to when he had Eddy in the paint doing nothing, and Q/Steph/Jamal chucking shots up. Jamal I always liked as a player but he doesn't play Defense. He benefits from being around guys like Joe J/Horford/Smith and coming off the bench no less.

Melo + Amar'e > Jamal/Zach

Melo + Amar'e with a legit Center > Jamal/Zach with a legit Center

Randolph has played unbelieveable this season WITHOUT Gay. And please even Memphis fans will tell you that Mayo has hurt them more than help them.

Stat&Meloallday
05-01-2011, 09:16 PM
Melo and amare easssssilyyy,not even close,with paul, howard,or willaims on there way for the third superstar.

KnicksR4Real
05-01-2011, 09:35 PM
Melo and amare easssssilyyy,not even close,with paul, howard,or willaims on there way for the third superstar.

I dont know if there coming, but I hope.

ohreally
05-01-2011, 09:44 PM
I wasn't directly comparing the two, but you're taking Zbo who had a career year and comparing it to Amare who had one of his worst if not worst rebounding seasons so yea it looks bad.

No ones going to argue Zbo isn't a better rebounder, but career wise they are actually both around 9 per game.

As for Melo his rebounds really went up as he got acclimated with NY. Over the last month he was at 8+ per game and in the post season at 10+ per game. I can def see him averaging 7-9 next season.

its easy to say what ANY team "could have had" in hindsight. I mean you can take pretty much every team in the NBA and magically build a contender if you go back 3-5 years and play the "what if" game... things just don't work that way.

Well, on a 36 minute basis Amare has averaged double figure 3 rebounds for 3 of 9 years, and none of them have been in the last 4 years. ZBO has averaged double figures on a 36 min basis for 7 of ten years, including every year for the past five years. Melo's ten was against the Celtics, who are a poor rebounding team, but I'll admit, given their positions Melo is a better rebounder than Amare.

I'm not arguing what could have been, I'm basically saying the exact same team we had three years ago with one change. Rather than the redundant drafting of Jordan and Toney (Lee and N8), our drafting what we needed at the time (and BPA being Jordan was always a poor joke), and who I wanted us to draft (other than SCurry) at the time. Other moves could have and would have been made but I'm not banking on them. And I'd take that team in a series against our current team any time. I'd even offer a rematch next year.

We would also have had lots of flexibility this past year and coming up, with a number of expirings, and we would have more draft picks. This is all remaining static for the most part. There is absolutely no magical building involved. Unlike those that are saying Billups will get us CP3 or Amare straight up will get us Howard, or those who were saying last year that Chandler and Eddy Curry would get us CP3 and Okafor, or the magical draft choices and MLEs that are going to make us a real contender next year.

ohreally
05-01-2011, 09:54 PM
I agree with most of if not everything you said. The Knicks in the last three seasons was as mismanaged as the first 7 of the decade.

But thinking about the past mistakes only gives me a headache, because I can't re-do a move, a trade or selection. The silver lining is that the Knicks have Amare and Melo, coupled with one of the biggest expirings next season in Billups.

I'm in the minority but I am not too optimistic that the Knicks have enough to acquire, CP3, D Howard, or DWill, so the Knicks need to move as if they will not acquire them.

Build the team now!!! Trade for players who's stock is down (OJ Mayo) and use Billups's expiring to get Al Jefferson or another center on a deal similar to Billups who can grab 10rbs per and score at least 10pts per.

Draft the best available pg. Go from there!!

I'd like to agree with that, but we're missing so much and Melo and Amare will be taking up $40 mil come 2012, so I don't see that we have enough money to pick up a center and a point and an entire bench in anything near the short term. I don't think Jefferson would make us anything near a contender, though he would certainly be an improvement on what we have now. I think we've pretty much put ourselves in a position where we have to go for the third star to have any chance of building a serious team. I don't love our chances at the primes either, but we're on that road now, so we have to hope.

Team*Chicago
05-01-2011, 09:58 PM
Okay.. I want to know.. would you rather have Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford still with a deep team and a great bench or do you like your current situation of Melo and Amare with no bench?

No offense and all but you should have know the Knicks fans would pick Amare and Carmelo over the previous plays they had. The Knicks organization goal is to collect allstars from other teams meaning it doesn't matter what the results are not make it deep into the playoffs or win any kind of championship(division, conference and league).