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View Full Version : Which would mean more for his legacy, Dirk's first ring or Kobe's sixth?



heyman321
04-29-2011, 08:42 PM
Title says it all. It's a poll question on EPSN's page and its tied at 50-50 right now!

Personally I think Dirk's first ring would mean more. Certifies him as the best European player to ever play. Kobe is already one of the all-time greats, he only needs a sixth to be at the steps of the Jordan debate I guess.

DoJoTheSlasher
04-29-2011, 08:48 PM
Dirk's already the best Euro of all time. He needs a ring so people will stop saying he is a "choker" when he isn't.

DenButsu
04-29-2011, 08:51 PM
Dirk's first, no contest. Losing the "never won a ring" tag is a big deal.

JordansBulls
04-29-2011, 08:53 PM
Dirk easily. It would mean that he took a franchise that never won anything to a title, while with Kobe you have plenty of guys for the Lakers franchise that have a surplus of rings and that have been to finals 5+ times.

Mikan - 5 finals in first 6 years
West - 9 finals
Magic - 9 finals
Kareem - 8 finals
Kobe - 8 finals

Sadds The Gr8
04-29-2011, 08:54 PM
Dirk's first easily.

TomTerrific
04-29-2011, 08:57 PM
Disco Dirk!

Bruno
04-29-2011, 08:57 PM
Great question. Dirk. The "choker" label would disappear and people would finally be able to evaluate his brilliant career play-off numbers without bias.

Where would Dirk rank all-time if he lead the Mavs to a title this year?

Bruno
04-29-2011, 08:58 PM
^That in no way undermines how big a 6th ring would be for Bryant and his legacy; but Dirk getting his first would be bigger, IMO.

FriedTofuz
04-29-2011, 09:03 PM
Dirk needs a ring. hes A HOF but he needs a ring at least..

tyfreaks brotha
04-29-2011, 09:04 PM
Dirk!! Easily

Avenged
04-29-2011, 09:06 PM
Close in my opinion but both for different reasonings.

Like others have said, Dirk would diminish his "choking" tag after so many years. You certainly don't want to retire with that label looming.

As for Kobe, winning rings just keep him moving up the all-time ranking.

So, Dirk because of a label. And Kobe because of rankings. Depends on how you see it.

TboneM3
04-29-2011, 09:38 PM
Close in my opinion but both for different reasonings.

Like others have said, Dirk would diminish his "choking" tag after so many years. You certainly don't want to retire with that label looming.

As for Kobe, winning rings just keep him moving up the all-time ranking.

So, Dirk because of a label. And Kobe because of rankings. Depends on how you see it.

Agreed, but that's not what ESPN is asking. Which one is more important? The answer is obviously Dirk's 1st ring.

kobe7ringbryant
04-29-2011, 09:51 PM
Dirk has a legacy, he's the next Karl Malone.

kblo247
04-29-2011, 09:58 PM
Easily Dirk. It would help get some of that choker label off of him, and he wouldn't be defined as the guy who lost games 3-6 versus Miami or got beat by an 8th seed with never winning a ring. Plus winning a ring gets him the best Euro to play the title over Pau, who while not the player Dirk is has the bling to say I'm more of a winner.

Not saying 6 isn't special for Kobe. It ties MJ, sends Phil out right, he gets a second 3 peat, get more rings than anyone but Fisher for the franchise, and would have went through 4 straight trips to the Finals. It just doesn't mean as much as Dirk getting 1.

Hellcrooner
04-29-2011, 10:00 PM
Lets see.

Jordan 6 KObe 6



Dirk 1 Vs Manus/ parkers/kukocs 2 or Pau 2 ( 3?)

It obviusly means more for KOBE to tie with the dude people consider goat

Dirk is NOT the greatest european no matter if he wins 1.

I mean look at his international resume
he is NOTHING against Petrovic, Sabonis, Kukoc, Divac, Pau.

CBCable
04-29-2011, 10:06 PM
Lets see.

Jordan 6 KObe 6



Dirk 1 Vs Manus/ parkers/kukocs 2 or Pau 2 ( 3?)

It obviusly means more for KOBE to tie with the dude people consider goat

Dirk is NOT the greatest european no matter if he wins 1.

I mean look at his international resume
he is NOTHING against Petrovic, Sabonis, Kukoc, Divac, Pau.

you are so wrong it hurts my brain

Geargo Wallace
04-29-2011, 10:07 PM
Lets see.

Jordan 6 KObe 6



Dirk 1 Vs Manus/ parkers/kukocs 2 or Pau 2 ( 3?)

It obviusly means more for KOBE to tie with the dude people consider goat

Dirk is NOT the greatest european no matter if he wins 1.

I mean look at his international resume
he is NOTHING against Petrovic, Sabonis, Kukoc, Divac, Pau.

are you serious? Dirk's first would mean way more than Kobe's 6th. It's almost universally agreed that there's nothing more that Kobe can do to surpass Jordan. Dirk has lots to gain by winning a title. Removing the 'choker' title is huge. Winning a ship as the best player on your team gives a lot of legacy points. Too bad none of the Euros you listed can claim that.

smith&wesson
04-29-2011, 10:12 PM
dirk because kobe is gonna get at least another one before he retires any ways.

John Walls Era
04-29-2011, 10:14 PM
are you serious? Dirk's first would mean way more than Kobe's 6th. It's almost universally agreed that there's nothing more that Kobe can do to surpass Jordan. Dirk has lots to gain by winning a title. Removing the 'choker' title is huge. Winning a ship as the best player on your team gives a lot of legacy points. Too bad none of the Euros you listed can claim that.

What if Kobe wins 10?

I'm going to go with Dirk though. Winning a championship would mean so much for the Mavs in general who are labeled as chokers.

Geargo Wallace
04-29-2011, 10:19 PM
What if Kobe wins 10?

I'm going to go with Dirk though. Winning a championship would mean so much for the Mavs in general who are labeled as chokers.

what if LeBron wins 10?

Jewelz0376
04-29-2011, 10:23 PM
I'd go with Dirk just because of the bad rep he has from losing against Mia the way they did and choking against Gs...

Too bad for him he won't get it this year

koreancabbage
04-29-2011, 10:23 PM
i voted Kobe cuz he can't get enough of the Jordan comparison and when he does win a 6th ring or even 7th (who knows?) it'll cement his place as one of the best players to play the game ever. if he does win a 6th and maybe a 7th. top 5 of all time probably.

but that's just me speculating. He'll pass Shaq for total career points considering he's a "young" old right now.

koreancabbage
04-29-2011, 10:27 PM
but in hindsight however, Garnett's first ring was pretty important as well (labeled as a choker before)- though he wasn't the best player on the team that won the 'chip.

So i think Dirk will be the same in terms of importance. However. I also do believe it'll be his only one so 20 years from now, they WON'T be talking about Dirk at all. Kobe will be with his 6th ring.

northsider
04-29-2011, 10:32 PM
Without a doubt it is Dirk.

No matter what if Kobe wins a 6th ring it won't really make him better or worse then anybody else. I feel like where Kobe stands in the eyes of critics is where he will stand pretty much from here on out. This isn't a knock on Kobe cause he is considered one of the greatest basketball players since the Jordan era and one of the top players of all time.

Dirk on the other hand will be looked at as a great that COULD NEVER finish the deal and when he is talked about for years and years after this the first and final knocks on him will always be his playoff performance and lack of a ring. This ring means so much to where people will place him cause if he gets one they can no longer call him a playoff bust or anything of the sort. I feel like this poll is Dirk by a long shot cause IMO all he has left to prove to anyone is getting that ring. It will be the dividing factor of pairing him with all the ringless greats and all the champions.

I love Kobe and he has been one of my fav. players since he cracked into the league but, I don't see any other answer then Dirk. To think Dirk may be haunted for the rest of his life if he doesn't get one and to him he may never think his career was a successful one cause he never achieved the ultimate goal of every player.

No matter what you say people won't remember these Mavs teams as this player or that player or role player the identity will always lie with Dirk and him being the star. So Dirk I hope you get one as long as it doesn't hinder my Bulls getting one hahahahahaha.

Ray_R
04-29-2011, 10:39 PM
Lets see.

Jordan 6 KObe 6



Dirk 1 Vs Manus/ parkers/kukocs 2 or Pau 2 ( 3?)

It obviusly means more for KOBE to tie with the dude people consider goat

Dirk is NOT the greatest european no matter if he wins 1.

I mean look at his international resume
he is NOTHING against Petrovic, Sabonis, Kukoc, Divac, Pau.

:sigh:

Hawkeye15
04-29-2011, 10:49 PM
By FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR Dirk. Kobe's legacy is settled. He will finish top 5ish by most, and there is nothing he can do to up that or down that. But Dirk is still outside the top 30 imo, and could do some damage by leading a team to a ring

tyfreaks brotha
04-29-2011, 10:55 PM
Lets see.

Jordan 6 KObe 6



Dirk 1 Vs Manus/ parkers/kukocs 2 or Pau 2 ( 3?)

It obviusly means more for KOBE to tie with the dude people consider goat

Dirk is NOT the greatest european no matter if he wins 1.

I mean look at his international resume
he is NOTHING against Petrovic, Sabonis, Kukoc, Divac, Pau.

:facepalm:

Mishmin
04-29-2011, 11:00 PM
Dirk's first means more. Kobe's legacy is untouchable-- He has even worked an injury asterick next to his name in these playoffs, so that even if they stumble, he can claim he had an "injury", although I've never seen injured players do the things he is doing right now.

albertc86
04-29-2011, 11:24 PM
Kobe's sixth ring would mean more. Why? It inches him closer to Jordan.

Dirk is already considered the best european ever and he's going to be a HOF'er any way. Not winning a championship will not jeopardize that.

northsider
04-29-2011, 11:40 PM
Kobe's sixth ring would mean more. Why? It inches him closer to Jordan.

Dirk is already considered the best european ever and he's going to be a HOF'er any way. Not winning a championship will not jeopardize that.

Inches him closer but, it still doesn't surpass him. What in the world is inches when you are already right behind someone in regards to where you stand. He will never pass him so inches mean ****.

Man do you realize that people are going to always mention Dirk being a ringless player when he is talked about. I really am shocked people think this is Kobe. Once again I am a huge Kobe fan but, he pretty much stands pat where he is in regards to his claim in NBA history.

No one will ever question Kobe and if he was a winner where as the LAST thing a great player wants over his head is someone questioning if his talent could ever elevate his team to a championship. I bet Dirk himself would trade every accolade he has in his career for a ring.

There is a big step for Dirk to take and a fine dividing line between winless greats and champions.

I feel like this should be a landslide poll.

IMO if Kobe gets another ring well that is awesome but, I am not going to be like yep that defiantly propelled his already amazing career to an all new height. Now if Dirk wins one he automatically gets put in a while new category some have already pinned him as never being able to reach.


Once again Dirk in a landslide.

Young2Kinsler
04-30-2011, 01:08 AM
Thank GOD others called out hellcrooner so I didn't have to get another infraction against him, lmao.

It would literally mean the world and more to Dirk. I highly doubt they get it, but I guess anything can happen.

Regardless, Dirk is a top 25 NBA player of all time

IversonIsKrazy
04-30-2011, 01:11 AM
Dirk's first no doubt. To be honest I am someone who ALWAYS makes fun of Mav fans because they choke so much. But I hate it when ppl do it and act like Dirk is a Choke as well. As much as I make fun of Mavericks, I always give Dirk the respect he deserves. He never chokes, it's always his teammates. Dirk deserves more respect than he gets, and if he won a ring, it would stop from ppl calling him a "choke"

Dirk is one of the greatest PF's of all-time. Top 10. Greatest European to play in the NBA.

As for Kobe, even if he wins 1 more, ppl are still going to rate MJ over him.

Hellcrooner
04-30-2011, 01:22 AM
Thank GOD others called out hellcrooner so I didn't have to get another infraction against him, lmao.

It would literally mean the world and more to Dirk. I highly doubt they get it, but I guess anything can happen.

Regardless, Dirk is a top 25 NBA player of all time

Mikan, russell, Wilt, Moses malone, Petit, Reed, Gilmore, Kareem, Robinson, hakeem, Shaq, Kg, Duncan, Karl Malone, Mchale, Barkley, Cowens,Thurmond, Baylor, Barry, Julius, Havlicek,Wilkins, bernard king , Bird, Drexler, Pippen, Worhty, , Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Jordan, gervin, English,Dantley, Dumars, D johnson, West, Oscar Robertson, COusy, Frazier, Monroe, Archibald, Magic, Thomas, Stockton, Kidd, Payton, Nash.

and thats only the ones that are HEADS and SHOULDERS better.

if we get into " arguable better" then your are not seeing the end of it

Hawkeye15
04-30-2011, 10:45 AM
Crooner, I love ya bro, but I have to warn the others

Please don't bother arguing with Crooner about Dirk. He continually undermines and underrates Dirk, and its a pointless battle that will do nothing but make you want to rip your hair out

That is all

Tanakid777
04-30-2011, 11:30 AM
Without a doubt it is Dirk.

No matter what if Kobe wins a 6th ring it won't really make him better or worse then anybody else. I feel like where Kobe stands in the eyes of critics is where he will stand pretty much from here on out. This isn't a knock on Kobe cause he is considered one of the greatest basketball players since the Jordan era and one of the top players of all time.

Dirk on the other hand will be looked at as a great that COULD NEVER finish the deal and when he is talked about for years and years after this the first and final knocks on him will always be his playoff performance and lack of a ring. This ring means so much to where people will place him cause if he gets one they can no longer call him a playoff bust or anything of the sort. I feel like this poll is Dirk by a long shot cause IMO all he has left to prove to anyone is getting that ring. It will be the dividing factor of pairing him with all the ringless greats and all the champions.

I love Kobe and he has been one of my fav. players since he cracked into the league but, I don't see any other answer then Dirk. To think Dirk may be haunted for the rest of his life if he doesn't get one and to him he may never think his career was a successful one cause he never achieved the ultimate goal of every player.

No matter what you say people won't remember these Mavs teams as this player or that player or role player the identity will always lie with Dirk and him being the star. So Dirk I hope you get one as long as it doesn't hinder my Bulls getting one hahahahahaha.


25.5 ppg, 11 rpg, 45% FGs 37% 3PFG% 88% FTs

I hate to break it to ya, but Josh Howard and Jason Terry don't exactly command double teams folks.

Dirk, McHale Parish= nice
Dirk, Kareem, Worthy= nice
Dirk, Shaq= Nice
Dirk, Pau, Bynum= Nice
Dirk, Allen, Pierce, Rondo= Nice
Dirk, Robinson= Nice
Dirk, Parker, Ginobili= Nice
Dirk, Howard, Terry= decent at best

Obviously, Dirk plays the same position as Pau, Kareem, and Worthy, but you get my point.

The best team that's been put around Dirk can't sniff the jock strap of most of the great Finals-winning teams of the past. Even so, he was within 2 games and a Stern-appropriated castration of winning a ring. :(

Tanakid777
04-30-2011, 11:37 AM
Mikan, russell, Wilt, Moses malone, Petit, Reed, Gilmore, Kareem, Robinson, hakeem, Shaq, Kg, Duncan, Karl Malone, Mchale, Barkley, Cowens,Thurmond, Baylor, Barry, Julius, Havlicek,Wilkins, bernard king , Bird, Drexler, Pippen, Worhty, , Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Jordan, gervin, English,Dantley, Dumars, D johnson, West, Oscar Robertson, COusy, Frazier, Monroe, Archibald, Magic, Thomas, Stockton, Kidd, Payton, Nash.

and thats only the ones that are HEADS and SHOULDERS better.

if we get into " arguable better" then your are not seeing the end of it


No

gsgs49
04-30-2011, 11:40 AM
Lets see.

Jordan 6 KObe 6



Dirk 1 Vs Manus/ parkers/kukocs 2 or Pau 2 ( 3?)

It obviusly means more for KOBE to tie with the dude people consider goat

Dirk is NOT the greatest european no matter if he wins 1.

I mean look at his international resume
he is NOTHING against Petrovic, Sabonis, Kukoc, Divac, Pau.

:laugh2:Nice joke as usual,you are a funny guy Crooner.

Tanakid777
04-30-2011, 11:40 AM
Old-school bigs can get overrated very easily. My god the average height of a Center in Wilt's day was something like 6'4". Chuck Hayes would've been tall back then

northsider
04-30-2011, 11:43 AM
25.5 ppg, 11 rpg, 45% FGs 37% 3PFG% 88% FTs

I hate to break it to ya, but Josh Howard and Jason Terry don't exactly command double teams folks.

Dirk, McHale Parish= nice
Dirk, Kareem, Worthy= nice
Dirk, Shaq= Nice
Dirk, Pau, Bynum= Nice
Dirk, Allen, Pierce, Rondo= Nice
Dirk, Robinson= Nice
Dirk, Parker, Ginobili= Nice
Dirk, Howard, Terry= decent at best

Obviously, Dirk plays the same position as Pau, Kareem, and Worthy, but you get my point.

The best team that's been put around Dirk can't sniff the jock strap of most of the great Finals-winning teams of the past. Even so, he was within 2 games and a Stern-appropriated castration of winning a ring. :(

You realize my entire post was supporting Dirk right or did you just find one part and go with it?

gsgs49
04-30-2011, 11:48 AM
Mikan, russell, Wilt, Moses malone, Petit, Reed, Gilmore, Kareem, Robinson, hakeem, Shaq, Kg, Duncan, Karl Malone, Mchale, Barkley, Cowens,Thurmond, Baylor, Barry, Julius, Havlicek,Wilkins, bernard king , Bird, Drexler, Pippen, Worhty, , Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Jordan, gervin, English,Dantley, Dumars, D johnson, West, Oscar Robertson, COusy, Frazier, Monroe, Archibald, Magic, Thomas, Stockton, Kidd, Payton, Nash.

and thats only the ones that are HEADS and SHOULDERS better.

if we get into " arguable better" then your are not seeing the end of it

Oh man you love to overrate players from 50's and 60's where there wasn't any competition.
Just one question:
Based on what do you say guys like Cowens,Thurmond,Gilmore etc..are heads and shoulders better than Dirk?

Hawkeye15
04-30-2011, 11:49 AM
No

agreed, and I would even have picked a few more

PhillyFaninLA
04-30-2011, 11:50 AM
Dirk might get the respect he deserves with a ring.

Kobe is the second or third best Laker (I put Magic number 1 Laker and second greatest of all time and I lean toward Shaq over Kobe, agree or disagree that is my opinion) of all time and a top 5 - 10 all time player IMO and nothing is going to change that, Kobe has already revealed his legacy.

Hellcrooner
04-30-2011, 12:08 PM
I cant beleive people.

Now ringless dirk is better than MIKAN?

who lead hsi team to 5 titles.

yeah of course :puke:

gsgs49
04-30-2011, 12:14 PM
Crooner, I love ya bro, but I have to warn the others

Please don't bother arguing with Crooner about Dirk. He continually undermines and underrates Dirk, and its a pointless battle that will do nothing but make you want to rip your hair out

That is all

He's very predictable,he bashes some players for some obvious reasons,he uses it as a way to overrate his players(spanish players).
For example he bashes Kobe Bryant and Andrew Bynum saying something like Andrew Bynum is overrated why? to overrate Pau Gasol
He said in another thread that a healthy Brandon Roy would make Portland a worse team and they are a better team with Rudy Fernandez.
He said that Memphis would be a better team without Zach Randolph and Rudy Gay to overrate Marc Gasol.
And now he's bashing Dirk because he's the best european player ever and better than Pau.

Sadds The Gr8
04-30-2011, 12:14 PM
Lets see.

Jordan 6 KObe 6



Dirk 1 Vs Manus/ parkers/kukocs 2 or Pau 2 ( 3?)

It obviusly means more for KOBE to tie with the dude people consider goat

Dirk is NOT the greatest european no matter if he wins 1.

I mean look at his international resume
he is NOTHING against Petrovic, Sabonis, Kukoc, Divac, Pau.
wtf Dirk is better than all those guys

gsgs49
04-30-2011, 12:20 PM
I cant beleive people.

Now ringless dirk is better than MIKAN?

who lead hsi team to 5 titles.

yeah of course :puke:

And which teams/players did he passed on his way to the 5 titles?

xbrackattackx
04-30-2011, 12:22 PM
I will agree with Crooner on this if Sabonis would have got to the league before being a rookie in his 30s he would have been a highly discussed center.

Chi StateOfMind
04-30-2011, 12:26 PM
Dirk!!!! Hands down.

Tanakid777
04-30-2011, 12:31 PM
You realize my entire post was supporting Dirk right or did you just find one part and go with it?

I am aware of this. That one thing is something a lot of people say though. It's more directed toward those who perceive Dirk as a playoff underachiever. Should've prefaced it with a positive disclaimer. My bad

king4day
04-30-2011, 12:36 PM
6 titles means nothing for Kobe.
1 title means everything to dirk and the franchise.

50 to 16 in favor of Dirk as I'm posting this and I'm pretty shocked it's even that close.

pd1dish
04-30-2011, 12:39 PM
idk if Kobe winning another ring is really going to do anything to his legacy. whether he has 5 rings or 6 rings, he is going to go down as one of the greatest and most clutch players of all time. the only benefit of getting a 6th ring is so people can try to compare him to Jordan even more, even though Jordan is on his own level from everyone else.

i think its more important for Dirk to get a ring. people always say that in order to be great, you have to be able to lead your team to a championship. even though i dont think that way because basketball is a team sport, Dirk still needs to earn that ring. you dont want to be apart of that group of great players that never won a ring.

northsider
04-30-2011, 12:41 PM
I am aware of this. That one thing is something a lot of people say though. It's more directed toward those who perceive Dirk as a playoff underachiever. Should've prefaced it with a positive disclaimer. My bad

I got ya. I probably should have elaborated that I wasn't saying he himself didn't show up for the playoffs but, his team never really did him any favors and people don't remember teams by 2nd options. Those teams will always fall under Dirk's blame and his shoulders which is sad but, true.

Tanakid777
04-30-2011, 12:52 PM
I cant beleive people.

Now ringless dirk is better than MIKAN?

who lead hsi team to 5 titles.

yeah of course :puke:

Lol. The NBA was semi-pro at best in Mikan's day. The other bigs were midgets. It was a segregated league. The next best players were awful

Tanakid777
04-30-2011, 01:06 PM
Crooner is the euro Skip Bayless

DeyAce
04-30-2011, 01:16 PM
Dirk. Good question

heyman321
04-30-2011, 01:22 PM
Crooner is the euro Skip Bayless

My god, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Skip Bayless doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

Hawkeye15
04-30-2011, 01:34 PM
I will agree with Crooner on this if Sabonis would have got to the league before being a rookie in his 30s he would have been a highly discussed center.

very true

Tanakid777
04-30-2011, 01:46 PM
My god, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Skip Bayless doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.

He's a little wild. Although he's right more than he's given credit for, his misses are so brash and outlandish that they overshadow anything he ever gets right. This is most likely by design

blastmasta26
04-30-2011, 01:51 PM
Kobe's 6th ring would be relatively inconsequential compared to Dirk's 1st.

Baller1
04-30-2011, 01:53 PM
Dirk needs one, Kobe doesn't need a 6th. It's definitely Dirk.

NYKalltheway
04-30-2011, 02:30 PM
Dirk is not the best European player to ever play but he's top 5 perhaps.

And Dirk is the answer to the Q

Hawkeye15
04-30-2011, 02:31 PM
Dirk is not the best European player to ever play but he's top 5 perhaps.

And Dirk is the answer to the Q

Would you agree Dirk has been the best NBA player to come our of Europe?

NYKalltheway
04-30-2011, 02:48 PM
Would you agree Dirk has been the best NBA player to come our of Europe?


The best, no.
Best career, by far.

Sabonis is the best for sure.
Petrovic, well, what you saw was what you would have ever saw with him as he was leaving the NBA in that off season since he agreed to move to Panathinaikos (proven fact, don't get me on this again :p )

I won't say Pau has had a better career just because he has two rings, since Dirk was literally the best player on his team for a long time and still is. Pau has proven that he can play very well without Kobe (first few games) but we have not seen that consistently.

I could argue that Nick Galis is better than Petrovic(his own words anyway, also stated by Petrovic's brother who also played basketball)
He was a 6ft1 scoring machine, he even made Sabonis wet his pants many times ;) Sabonis always thought of Galis as a more complete player than him and I wanna agree with him but it's not true :cool:

Then we have Dejan Bodiroga, Sarunas Marciulonis, Juan Antonio San Epifanio, Sasha Djordjevic, Toni Kukoc, Vlade Divac, Peja Stojakovic, Detlef Schrempf(not as good but he's in the arguments, tougher era etc), Mirza Delibasic ...

Dirk is an amazing player, but just because he's the most important European player in the NBA [since he's the leader of a team] does not make him the best European player ever.

He COULD be a Top 5 player, probably is, but since we can't judge eras that easily it's mostly opinions. And there's not a general opinion Dirk is the best plaeyr ever, not even top 3 (1. Sabonis, 2. Galis, 3. Drazen Petrovic is most common you'll see, where you can rotate 2 and 3).
Top 5 is where he probably belongs. I can't say for a fact though. Top 8 is definite though.

P.S:
Just realized that Manu Ginobili is the first player to win EVERYTHING. Won the NBA, won the Euroleague and Olympics gold with Argentina (not part of the discussion but since we went on for international I thought it was a nice point :p ) But his Euroleague is undermined as there was a split and there were two Euroleagues. The current one was called Suproleague and Euroleague was the name used by the others... still won though :)

Hawkeye15
04-30-2011, 03:15 PM
The best, no.
Best career, by far.
Sabonis is the best for sure.
Petrovic, well, what you saw was what you would have ever saw with him as he was leaving the NBA in that off season since he agreed to move to Panathinaikos (proven fact, don't get me on this again :p )

I won't say Pau has had a better career just because he has two rings, since Dirk was literally the best player on his team for a long time and still is. Pau has proven that he can play very well without Kobe (first few games) but we have not seen that consistently.

I could argue that Nick Galis is better than Petrovic(his own words anyway, also stated by Petrovic's brother who also played basketball)
He was a 6ft1 scoring machine, he even made Sabonis wet his pants many times ;) Sabonis always thought of Galis as a more complete player than him and I wanna agree with him but it's not true :cool:

Then we have Dejan Bodiroga, Sarunas Marciulonis, Juan Antonio San Epifanio, Sasha Djordjevic, Toni Kukoc, Vlade Divac, Peja Stojakovic, Detlef Schrempf(not as good but he's in the arguments, tougher era etc), Mirza Delibasic ...

Dirk is an amazing player, but just because he's the most important European player in the NBA [since he's the leader of a team] does not make him the best European player ever.

He COULD be a Top 5 player, probably is, but since we can't judge eras that easily it's mostly opinions. And there's not a general opinion Dirk is the best plaeyr ever, not even top 3 (1. Sabonis, 2. Galis, 3. Drazen Petrovic is most common you'll see, where you can rotate 2 and 3).
Top 5 is where he probably belongs. I can't say for a fact though. Top 8 is definite though.

P.S:
Just realized that Manu Ginobili is the first player to win EVERYTHING. Won the NBA, won the Euroleague and Olympics gold with Argentina (not part of the discussion but since we went on for international I thought it was a nice point :p ) But his Euroleague is undermined as there was a split and there were two Euroleagues. The current one was called Suproleague and Euroleague was the name used by the others... still won though :)

This is what I mean. Nobody is saying that Dirk is the best Euro player to play in the NBA, or to play at all. But there is no denying that Dirk has the best NBA career for a Euro in a landslide. Its not even close.

I see how it gets confusing what is being said at times. But you have to understand, most in the U.S. don't follow those guys at all until they get into the NBA. Dirk came as a kid, and his entire career, as a man, has been in the NBA, and he is one of the top players over the past 10 years. No other Euro has ever held that esteem in the NBA

Geargo Wallace
04-30-2011, 03:18 PM
I cant beleive people.

Now ringless dirk is better than MIKAN?

who lead hsi team to 5 titles.

yeah of course :puke:

Your avatar is basically doing what I'm doing when I read your posts.

On the topic of 50's and 60's basketball... I feel like you need to hold them in a much different regard than players from the mid 70's and on. Comparing Dirk to Mikan by the amount of rings is ridiculous. Hell I have a few house league and high school titles, maybe I'm better than Dirk too.

NYKalltheway
04-30-2011, 03:20 PM
Your avatar is basically doing what I'm doing when I read your posts.

On the topic of 50's and 60's basketball... I feel like you need to hold them in a much different regard than players from the mid 70's and on. Comparing Dirk to Mikan by the amount of rings is ridiculous. Hell I have a few house league and high school titles, maybe I'm better than Dirk too.

so Bill Russell sucks? :shrug:

C-Style
04-30-2011, 03:24 PM
6 is more impressive than 1. But it would mean more to Dirk to win 1 than Kobe winning his 6th, maybe not!

marques724
04-30-2011, 03:24 PM
Dirk in a land side. He goes from a choker to one of the five best power forwards of all-time while Kobe if he wins his sixth ring will tie him with Jordan but the majority of people will still claim Jordan the superior player

gsgs49
04-30-2011, 04:05 PM
so Bill Russell sucks? :shrug:

Of course no but players from 50's and 60's are overrated in terms of championships and stats especially those 20+ rebounds per game,they wouldn't average the half in the 90's and 00's.
Bill Russell wouldn't be a top 10 player if he played in the 90's or 00's,thinks about it why people consider him top 10 and a lot of them consider him top 5 also?
The answer is:11 championships and 5 MVPs
I don't think he would have this amount of championships and MVPs if he played in an era where he would have some competition.
Bill Russell in 90's or 00's= better version of Ben Wallace nothing more.

gsgs49
04-30-2011, 04:07 PM
Your avatar is basically doing what I'm doing when I read your posts.

On the topic of 50's and 60's basketball... I feel like you need to hold them in a much different regard than players from the mid 70's and on. Comparing Dirk to Mikan by the amount of rings is ridiculous. Hell I have a few house league and high school titles, maybe I'm better than Dirk too.

:laugh2:nicely done.

RadiantShot
04-30-2011, 04:07 PM
Kobe's 6th.

DoJoTheSlasher
04-30-2011, 04:14 PM
Lets see.

Jordan 6 KObe 6



Dirk 1 Vs Manus/ parkers/kukocs 2 or Pau 2 ( 3?)

It obviusly means more for KOBE to tie with the dude people consider goat

Dirk is NOT the greatest european no matter if he wins 1.

I mean look at his international resume
he is NOTHING against Petrovic, Sabonis, Kukoc, Divac, Pau.

Crooner, stop it.

Kukoc, Divac and Pau are all MILES below Dirk's talent. Saying these players along with Dirk's name is an embarrasment to Dirk. Sabonis was really good but not better than Dirk. Talent wise, Petrovic might have been better. He might have been the Euro Kobe but we will never know.

So stop hating on the greatest Euro, Top25 NBA player of all time.

gsgs49
04-30-2011, 04:20 PM
Crooner, shut up.

Kukoc, Divac and Pau are all MILES below Dirk's talent. Saying these players along with Dirk's name is an embarrasment to Dirk. Sabonis was really good but not better than Dirk. Talent wise, Petrovic might have been better. He might have been the Euro Kobe but we will never know.

So shut up and stop hating on the greatest Euro, Top25 NBA player of all time.

That's a stretch as much as I love Dirk he's not a top 25 player all time yet he could end there especially if he wins a championship as the man but right now of course no.
He's in the 40-45 scale right now imo.

NYKalltheway
04-30-2011, 04:43 PM
So stop hating on the greatest Euro, Top25 NBA player of all time.


Sabonis, Drazen, Galis and a few others perhaps beg to differ. Also about Top 25 NBA player.. NBA did not start in 1996

Hawkeye15
04-30-2011, 04:51 PM
It is so frustrating reading the go and back about how Dirk is being defined.

Here it is, simply put.

Dirk Nowitzki is the best NBA player of all time of European, or foreign decent, individually speaking. There have been Euro or foreign players who have been very good, even great, with team success, but none of them individually are as good as Dirk in the NBA game. Would Sabonis have been had he come into the NBA at 22? Maybe. But he didn't enter the league then. Gasol's statistics, awards, and accolades don't even touch Dirk's, and the only thing his supporters can cling onto is the fact that he ended up playing with an all time great team, coach, and player to help him achieve a ring. Drazen, if he lived, may have been better. Sadly, he died. Vlade? Really? Dirk Nowitzki is the best individual NBA player of European or foreign decent.

Easy to understand, no?

RaiderLakersA's
04-30-2011, 04:51 PM
Dirk's first, no contest. Losing the "never won a ring" tag is a big deal.

I can agree with this. Totally. Winning one as "the main guy" is always a legacy setter.

Nevertheless, I voted for Kobe's 6th. Mainly because of what another championship means to both Kobe AND the Lakers. All along we've been saying that Kobe's competition is with history itself. A ring for Dirk won't transport him into the rarest of the most rarified of air. But a 6th ring for Kobe places him squarely into Elites amongst Elites category. And it makes the Lakers the top franchise of the modern era without a doubt.

Hawkeye15
04-30-2011, 04:52 PM
If Dirk wins a title as the lead dog, he easily moves into top 30, possibly a bit higher.

Hellcrooner
04-30-2011, 04:58 PM
Curious

thats TWO europeans now telling dirk is NOT the best european player of all time.

Go figure.

Hellcrooner
04-30-2011, 04:59 PM
Sabonis, Drazen, Galis and a few others perhaps beg to differ. Also about Top 25 NBA player.. NBA did not start in 1996

:clap:

Hawkeye15
04-30-2011, 05:02 PM
Curious

thats TWO europeans now telling dirk is NOT the best european player of all time.

Go figure.

I would have to agree with you there. My knowledge is within the borders of the NBA, where Dirk has been better than any Euro to play. I wouldn't bother debating Dirk in the international game. I don't know where he rates, nor do I care frankly. In fact, I think its clouding your mind, because you are, without knowing possibly, factoring in Pau's European play into your opinion of their NBA careers.

Dirk is the best NBA player of all time of Euro decent. Outside the NBA, I don't care if he is the 100th best international or Euro player, in the NBA, he is the best one that we have had.

NYKalltheway
04-30-2011, 05:02 PM
I can agree with this. Totally. Winning one as "the main guy" is always a legacy setter.

Nevertheless, I voted for Kobe's 6th. Mainly because of what another championship means to both Kobe AND the Lakers. All along we've been saying that Kobe's competition is with history itself. A ring for Dirk won't transport him into the rarest of the most rarified of air. But a 6th ring for Kobe places him squarely into Elites amongst Elites category. And it makes the Lakers the top franchise of the modern era without a doubt.

A 6th ring is still less than Robert Horry's 7 :D

Seriously now, Kobe's 6th will inflate his overall value. His 6 rings will be way different than MJs 6. Not even close. But he will become a top 3 Laker ever most probably (in everyone's opinion) and it's better to have 6 than 5 in the end, isn't it? :)

Dirk will be the first European player to LEAD his team to a ring. That will increase the stature of international players overall in the league will refine Dirk as the European's MJ. ie "the man to reach" ;)
Depends on how anyone sees it. But I think Dirk winning the NBA championship with Dallas Mavericks(not a popular team in Europe at all) will improve the NBA's ratings and more international players would want to join unlike today where they just enter the draft for the sake of it

gsgs49
04-30-2011, 05:43 PM
Sabonis, Drazen, Galis and a few others perhaps beg to differ. Also about Top 25 NBA player.. NBA did not start in 1996

I'm done arguing because I don't have a good idea about those players,I don't argue on something without having informations and arguments.
But I'm just curious to know based on what those players are better than Dirk abilities?stats?accomplishments?dominance?

Dirk was only 20 when he came to play against the best so a PRIME DIRK never played in the euroleague so comparing two players who played in two different leagues in their primes isn't easy.
Physical players are the only players who could give Dirk some troubles and this kind of players is rare in the euroleague so Dirk would have been much more dominant if he played in the euroleague imo.

The only thing I'm sure about it is that Dirk is the best NBA european player like hawkeye said.

valade16
04-30-2011, 06:00 PM
Curious

thats TWO europeans now telling dirk is NOT the best european player of all time.

Go figure.

Cool for that. Name another European who has accomplished more in the NBA?

shizzle09
04-30-2011, 06:13 PM
I voted Kobe but after reading some posts on here you guys have talked me into it. Dirk losing the choker label and getting the ring is alot bigger than Kobe tying his greatness

phantasyyy
04-30-2011, 06:29 PM
haha dirks first for sure, idk mayb its just me that wants the mavericks to direly get that first ring haha Kidd and Dirk desperately need that ring to solidfy their careers haha both failed in the finals and it would be a feel-good moment for anybody in the nba as two future hall of famers are able to get the championship they so sorely neeed.

Hellcrooner
04-30-2011, 06:43 PM
Cool for that. Name another European who has accomplished more in the NBA?

Kukoc, Parker and Gasol.

They have acomplished the ONLY thing that matter, and not by simply riding some boat Mark Madsen Style.

valade16
04-30-2011, 06:53 PM
Kukoc, Parker and Gasol.

They have acomplished the ONLY thing that matter, and not by simply riding some boat Mark Madsen Style.

So they as individuals have accomplished more than Dirk? You sure their teams didn't win those titles? What did any of those guys ever do as the Main man on a team?

Win an MVP? Nope.

Only Dirk.

Kevj77
04-30-2011, 07:10 PM
I'm a Lakers fan, but this is so obviously Dirk. A sixth ring won't change much for Kobe he is already a top 10 all-time player in the NBA. However, even if he ties Jordan in rings MJ will still be considered better by most fans. A ring for Dirk would get rid of the choker label once an for all. You don't want to be a HOFer without a ring.

Hellcrooner
04-30-2011, 07:13 PM
So they as individuals have accomplished more than Dirk? You sure their teams didn't win those titles? What did any of those guys ever do as the Main man on a team?

Win an MVP? Nope.

Only Dirk.

wh dont you go ask Parker if he cahnge shis FINALS mvp for dirsk regular season mvp and überchoke against the warriors.


Pau? let me check Post Shaq -pre Pau lakers
-Lottery
-1st round
-1st round.

Sure he had nothing to do with winning :rolleyes:

jerellh528
04-30-2011, 07:20 PM
wh dont you go ask Parker if he cahnge shis FINALS mvp for dirsk regular season mvp and überchoke against the warriors.


Pau? let me check Post Shaq -pre Pau lakers
-Lottery
-1st round
-1st round.

Sure he had nothing to do with winning :rolleyes:

true but those teams also has starters of kwame brown, smush parker, brian cook :puke:
for kobe to even manage to take these teams to the playoffs was a miracle lol

NYKalltheway
04-30-2011, 07:41 PM
I'm done arguing because I don't have a good idea about those players,I don't argue on something without having informations and arguments.
But I'm just curious to know based on what those players are better than Dirk abilities?stats?accomplishments?dominance?

Everything... And it includes World Championships and EuroBasket competitions.. If it was just domestic league or just Euroleague then Sabonis would be barely top 10



Dirk was only 20 when he came to play against the best so a PRIME DIRK never played in the euroleague so comparing two players who played in two different leagues in their primes isn't easy.
Physical players are the only players who could give Dirk some troubles and this kind of players is rare in the euroleague so Dirk would have been much more dominant if he played in the euroleague imo.

1) Euroleague is more physical than the NBA
2) As I said earlier, Euroleague or domestic leagues are not what make the others better
3) If Dirk played in the Euroleague he'd be just an improved version of Erazem Lorbek or Matjias Smodisz. Which basically means he'd have around 4 Euroleague titles if he played for a very good team. If he was on an average team, he wouldn't make much difference. Star system does not work in Europe... Star teams do ;)



The only thing I'm sure about it is that Dirk is the best NBA european player like hawkeye said.

This is true. Individually, he's the best European player in the NBA. And imo he should have got a ring in 2006 anyway.

valade16
04-30-2011, 07:44 PM
wh dont you go ask Parker if he cahnge shis FINALS mvp for dirsk regular season mvp and überchoke against the warriors.


Pau? let me check Post Shaq -pre Pau lakers
-Lottery
-1st round
-1st round.

Sure he had nothing to do with winning :rolleyes:

Gasol had a lot to do with the Lakers winning, I'd say he had as much to do with that as he did with the Grizzlies never winning a playoff game when he was there...

If you honestly believe Parker or Kukoc have had as good as careers as Dirk then I'm done. That is so unbelievably stupid I can't even really believe it.

I'll say that though I think Dirk has had a better career than Gasol, they are damn close and I could see both sides, but Kukoc and Parker is laughable.

By your reasoning, Horry is the most successful player since Russel since he has 7 rings and helped the teams...

phantasyyy
04-30-2011, 08:10 PM
wh dont you go ask Parker if he cahnge shis FINALS mvp for dirsk regular season mvp and überchoke against the warriors.


Pau? let me check Post Shaq -pre Pau lakers
-Lottery
-1st round
-1st round.

Sure he had nothing to do with winning :rolleyes:

lol your basing paus worth on the success of the lakerss? lmao we all know that pau benefited the most, he got the pressure taken off him and was able to succeed becoming the second option to none other than kobe. Imagine Dirk with kobe that would be one unstoppable offensive duo.

TheGrizziez
04-30-2011, 08:20 PM
Dirk

Kevj77
04-30-2011, 08:51 PM
lol your basing paus worth on the success of the lakerss? lmao we all know that pau benefited the most, he got the pressure taken off him and was able to succeed becoming the second option to none other than kobe. Imagine Dirk with kobe that would be one unstoppable offensive duo.Pau is a great player he was the missing piece for the Lakers, all they needed was a sidekick for Kobe.

However, you are 100% correct Pau benefited the most from that trade. Pau is what he is. A 18 point, 9 board, 3 assit big that is a finesse player and on the soft side. He benifited from playing with Kobe and Bynum a lot, Kobe takes the pressure off him to carry a team offensively and Bynum make up for him being soft defensively with his physical play. It was a perfect fit for Pau and the Lakers, but that doesn't make Pau better than Dirk.

MacFitz92
04-30-2011, 08:57 PM
Lets see.

Jordan 6 KObe 6



Dirk 1 Vs Manus/ parkers/kukocs 2 or Pau 2 ( 3?)

It obviusly means more for KOBE to tie with the dude people consider goat

Dirk is NOT the greatest european no matter if he wins 1.

I mean look at his international resume
he is NOTHING against Petrovic, Sabonis, Kukoc, Divac, Pau.

Lol. You're a funny guy.

championships
04-30-2011, 09:15 PM
Kobe has his Legacy. Dirk is still trying to get that monkey off of his back and shed that title he carries around with him. You don't want "Choker" being apart of your legacy. Dirk has more to prove, It would be way more important for Dirk to win one.

evadatam5150
04-30-2011, 09:50 PM
Title says it all. It's a poll question on EPSN's page and its tied at 50-50 right now!

Personally I think Dirk's first ring would mean more. Certifies him as the best European player to ever play. Kobe is already one of the all-time greats, he only needs a sixth to be at the steps of the Jordan debate I guess.

You have to think Dirk has far more on the line where his legacy is concerned.. Dirk will always have that stigma of not having won it all, and more importantly, early exits in the playoff's.. Certainly a bigger monkey on his back, where as Kobe will continue to be both vilified and loved by fans and decenter's alike as he seems to bring out the best and worst of whatever side of the argument one stands on.. His Legacy is ever changing and usually it has nothing to do with his on court prowess unfortunately..

gsgs49
05-01-2011, 05:10 AM
Kukoc, Parker and Gasol.

They have acomplished the ONLY thing that matter, and not by simply riding some boat Mark Madsen Style.

Shame on you! you forgot Beno Udrih:punish,he won a championship with the spurs.

Hellcrooner
05-01-2011, 12:08 PM
Shame on you! you forgot Beno Udrih:punish,he won a championship with the spurs.

yeah adn slava medvedenko and sahsa vujacic.

But that would be OVERDOING it.
:D