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View Full Version : Shoulder Spear: Offensive Foul?



JasonJohnHorn
04-28-2011, 01:19 PM
Please, this is not meant as a bate, so lets not get into any negatives.

Dwight Howard has improved his offensive game, he is able to slip by guys on the pivot and cut to hte basket better than he ever has, and he remains the best interior defender in the league, and I would say it is safe to say there isnt a better rebounder in the league.

He has a crutch in his offensive game, and we have all seen it more times than we can count. He drops his shoulder, spears it into the defender to create space and then puts up the shot. In the 09 finals against LA, the officials were calling it an offensive foul, but they let Howard get away with it against Cleveland, and against everybody else they have played in the post season outside of LA.

So my question. Is this move an offensive foul in your book? In my mind it is a clear yes, her is initiating contact with the defender, pushing them back and then shooting. It makes no difference in my mind whether or not you use an elbow, and fore arm, a hand or a shoulder, when the offensive player initiates contact and pushes into the defender to create space, it is an offensive foul, but it just doesnt seem to be called consistently one way or the other. The inconsistency bothers me as a fan a lot while I am watching a game.


thoughts.

and again: not bating. So please keep negative comments and flagarant fouls and techs out of this and stick with the question at hand.

Hawkeye15
04-28-2011, 01:43 PM
Please, this is not meant as a bate, so lets not get into any negatives.

Dwight Howard has improved his offensive game, he is able to slip by guys on the pivot and cut to hte basket better than he ever has, and he remains the best interior defender in the league, and I would say it is safe to say there isnt a better rebounder in the league.

He has a crutch in his offensive game, and we have all seen it more times than we can count. He drops his shoulder, spears it into the defender to create space and then puts up the shot. In the 09 finals against LA, the officials were calling it an offensive foul, but they let Howard get away with it against Cleveland, and against everybody else they have played in the post season outside of LA.

So my question. Is this move an offensive foul in your book? In my mind it is a clear yes, her is initiating contact with the defender, pushing them back and then shooting. It makes no difference in my mind whether or not you use an elbow, and fore arm, a hand or a shoulder, when the offensive player initiates contact and pushes into the defender to create space, it is an offensive foul, but it just doesnt seem to be called consistently one way or the other. The inconsistency bothers me as a fan a lot while I am watching a game.


thoughts.

and again: not bating. So please keep negative comments and flagarant fouls and techs out of this and stick with the question at hand.

yes it is a foul. Creating an advantage by using physical force into another player is a foul. Especially when you created the contact

Byronicle
04-28-2011, 01:52 PM
i;ve always thought it should be called and hated to see it not called especially when its pretty obvious

Raph12
04-28-2011, 02:18 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

Dwight doesn't commit half of the offensive fouls Shaq should've been called on throughout his career, why don't we go back in time and take away his accolades as well? :eyebrow:

Each "superstar" is allowed to get away with some stuff, if you don't like it, don't watch...

MrfadeawayJB
04-28-2011, 03:05 PM
I would say the "bump" isnt the worst part, unless he put his total weight into it, then it should be an offensive foul. But when his arm and shoulders get away from his body to create space, it is def a foul. With all this said, the defender has to take it square in the chest, and not flop before the contact is fully absorbed

MrfadeawayJB
04-28-2011, 03:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

Dwight doesn't commit half of the offensive fouls Shaq should've been called on throughout his career, why don't we go back in time and take away his accolades as well? :eyebrow:

Each "superstar" is allowed to get away with some stuff, if you don't like it, don't watch...

times have changed since then and Shaq would be called for that now in days. Ecspecially the elbows to the face. Leagues every where are cracking down on that

Raph12
04-28-2011, 03:23 PM
times have changed since then and Shaq would be called for that now in days. Ecspecially the elbows to the face. Leagues every where are cracking down on that

Agreed, but nowadays defenders flop so often it's hard to determine if it's really a hard hit or a good acting job... IE: Collins and Zaza have been doing it all series (at one point 7' 255+lb Collins dropped to the floor after a collision with 5'11 185lb Nelson & still got the call lol).

Hawkeye15
04-28-2011, 03:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

Dwight doesn't commit half of the offensive fouls Shaq should've been called on throughout his career, why don't we go back in time and take away his accolades as well? :eyebrow:

Each "superstar" is allowed to get away with some stuff, if you don't like it, don't watch...

sure. The OP was asking if its a foul. And it should be. Tons of stars have gotten away with fouls. This is no different.

Law25
04-28-2011, 03:31 PM
Howards not the only one. CP3 gets away with it on every drive, Fisher on ocassion. I say call the offensive foul if the player flops after the shoulder spear. In Howards case its not his fault he's strong as hell. Players need to get in the gym, man up, and hit his ***** back

bulldog312
04-28-2011, 03:44 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

Dwight doesn't commit half of the offensive fouls Shaq should've been called on throughout his career, why don't we go back in time and take away his accolades as well? :eyebrow:

Each "superstar" is allowed to get away with some stuff, if you don't like it, don't watch...

Well, not calling it a foul now because they didn't call it a foul so many years ago on a specific player is a very poor reasoning.

magichatnumber9
04-28-2011, 03:58 PM
Someone gave me one of those shoulder spears today while I was playing pick up. I told him next time he does I'll throw him down on the ground. **** hurts

Rentzias
04-28-2011, 06:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

Dwight doesn't commit half of the offensive fouls Shaq should've been called on throughout his career, why don't we go back in time and take away his accolades as well? :eyebrow:

Each "superstar" is allowed to get away with some stuff, if you don't like it, don't watch...

Easy, easy, down boy. OP spent the first part praising Dwight Howard. And it's a foul. And it's been quite a few years since the league Shaq spent shoulder spearing.

gbrl
04-28-2011, 08:09 PM
plenty of players do it especially shooters

Rentzias
04-29-2011, 10:49 AM
Right. If they get caught, they get caught, if not, not.

JasonJohnHorn
04-29-2011, 11:44 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

Dwight doesn't commit half of the offensive fouls Shaq should've been called on throughout his career, why don't we go back in time and take away his accolades as well? :eyebrow:

Each "superstar" is allowed to get away with some stuff, if you don't like it, don't watch...

You are absolutely right. Shaq has always gotten away with offensive fouls, he was notorious for throwing his arm over the defenders shoulder (I cant even count the number of times he did it to Mutumbo in the LA/Philly finals series). And he used to get away with a lot of over-the-back fouls as well.

I dont have a problem with the bump-and-grind, back-to-the-basket games. Barkley was the master of it. When a player backs up to find where the defender is, and steps back and to the side, and back and to the side, that's alright, because they aren't moving the defender, they are trying to find there way around them. This type of game though is near useless now because the league put in the 3-seconds-with-your-back-to-the-basket rule. Shaq still used it, and he also committed a lot of offensive fouls with it, because he just stuck his @$$ out and pushed people back with it, which is different than how Barkley did it.

It sad to see the shape of post-offensive play these days (and I speak of the center position specifically, there are lots of great forward and the league is deeper at that position than it ever has been). There isnt a center in the league outside of Gasol who has the offensive game of centers from the past. Hakeem, Robinson, Kareem, those guys knew how to work the pivot (especially Hakeem), and could step back. A guy like Barkley wouldn't be much of an offensive player in the league today, but he'd still be a great rebounder. But guys like Hakeem, Kareem, Robinson, even Ewing, they would have a field day in the league today, even against Howard.


But to be an effective post player, you have to be able to pop and shoot effectively, because otherwise the defender will always gaurd the way to the basket and let the offensive player step out, and most centers cant hit those shots.

Howard doesnt have a very refined offensive game, but he is an extremely efficient offensive player. He moves VERY well without the ball and knows how to cut to the basket, and his ability to work the offensive glass and put the ball back in the whole is as good as I've EVER seen in the league (and I've been watching since the late 80's, and love watchhing the retro games from back in the day). The dude can score twenty points a game without even having a play run for him. But when it comes to dropping the ball to him in the post, he just isnt that effective and rest heavily on a move that is an offensive foul.