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View Full Version : Since people constantly critisize Rose by the numbers...



minervamob
04-17-2011, 03:12 PM
In another thread people were upset about The Pacers coach making comparisons of Rose to some of the league's all-time greats' athletic abilities, I took the time to find some year 3 numbers of some well known players at the position.

Age 23 Jason Kidd. 10.9ppg 9apg .407fg%
Age 24 Steve Nash. 7.9ppg 5.5apg .363fg%
Age 24(year 4 to be fair he missed 70games his 3rd year) Chauncey Billups. 9.3ppg 3.4apg .422fg%
Age 22 Chris Paul. 21.1ppg 11.6apg .488fg%
Age 23 Deron Williams 18.8ppg 10.5apg .507fg%
Age 23 Allen Iverson 26.8ppg 4.6apg .412fg%.

And Just for fun some big name scorers...

Age 20 Kobe Bryant 19.9ppg 3.8apg .465fg%
Age 21 LeBron James 31.4ppg 6.6apg
.488fg%(WOW)
Age 23 Michael Jordan 37.1ppg 4.6apg .482fg%(WOW!!).

And here's Rose at age 22. 25.1ppg 7.5apg .445fg%.

Do with these numbers as you may.

Chacarron
04-17-2011, 03:15 PM
Your sig is priceless.

Minimal
04-17-2011, 03:15 PM
What this thread actually proves?

210Don
04-17-2011, 03:17 PM
that sig is straight homo

toovey107
04-17-2011, 03:18 PM
Take out all the half court heaves Rose has thrown up this year (has to lead the league), and his numbers are even better.

But, that's crazy talk.

sargon21
04-17-2011, 03:18 PM
you should put up the ts%'s

Hawkeye15
04-17-2011, 03:19 PM
do you feel better that you got that off your chest?

By the way, which one of those PG's you listed won MVP that year........

That is where the criticism comes into play dude.

xxcubs22xx
04-17-2011, 03:20 PM
Take out all the half court heaves Rose has thrown up this year (has to lead the league), and his numbers are even better.

But, that's crazy talk.

:clap:

k.smith904
04-17-2011, 03:24 PM
do you feel better that you got that off your chest?

By the way, which one of those PG's you listed won MVP that year........

That is where the criticism comes into play dude.

so because Rose is performing at a high level at a younger age he deserves criticism?

I'm confused (and high).

OnWisconsin2007
04-17-2011, 03:24 PM
stop. just stop.

this is what happens when a chicago team is kinda good....everything about their team becomes the best in the league...or maybe all time.

minervamob
04-17-2011, 03:24 PM
This is not a mvp argument. Just a statistical analasyst of players that are or have become top Nba guards/scorers and where they were in their third year. Rose gets a lot of hate on here for no reason. Just think how much better he can become.

And about the sig...anyone that has been through the Bulls forum knows we go gay for Rose( no homo). Doesnt make sense I know lol

-Kobe24-TJ19-
04-17-2011, 03:27 PM
in before Baitfest

minervamob
04-17-2011, 03:29 PM
And Im not from Chicago. Im a Bulls fan from the Bronx. You should see how new yorkers acted when Melo came to town. They behaved as of he came with a ring

Niro
04-17-2011, 03:30 PM
yeah rose is a great player WE KNOW

he is NOT the best player in the nba

he is hands down top 5 and you can make a very good case for top 5 right now

pls leave it at that

nobody needs 54 threads/day about how great rose is, that he should be mvp and so on

and yeah the sig is so gay

save the knicks
04-17-2011, 03:32 PM
Half those dudes started out when the NBA allowed hand checking. This should not be over looked

drizzy101
04-17-2011, 03:34 PM
Take out all the half court heaves Rose has thrown up this year (has to lead the league), and his numbers are even better.

But, that's crazy talk.

his percentages go up slightly nothing major.

Hustlenomics
04-17-2011, 03:34 PM
oh hey look another Rose thread

Cubsfan365
04-17-2011, 03:41 PM
stop. just stop.

this is what happens when a chicago team is kinda good....everything about their team becomes the best in the league...or maybe all time.
Explain to me how 62-20 is "kinda good." That comment is absolutely ludicrous.

championships
04-17-2011, 03:42 PM
People are trying to find ways to critisize him because you Bulls fans keep trying to cram him down everyones throats. He is good we get it.

Cubsfan365
04-17-2011, 03:43 PM
his percentages go up slightly nothing major.
That's not true. Rose is in at the end of every quarter for the Bulls, and when we have the ball he almost always shoots it at the end of the quarter.

hugepatsfan
04-17-2011, 03:44 PM
How do those #s prove that he is better than Lebron right now like some Bulls fans claim? How do they prove he is better than Dwight right now like many Bulls fans claim? How do they have even the slightest relevence to this year's MVP race? I wasn't aware that a 23 year old J-Kidd was a candidate.

No one is saying that Rose isn't playing remarkably. Not just for a player his age, but for a player of any age. But he isn't having a better year than CP3, Dwight, Lebron, and others. At least not unless you're justification is "I think so."

Cubsfan365
04-17-2011, 03:47 PM
How do those #s prove that he is better than Lebron right now like some Bulls fans claim? How do they prove he is better than Dwight right now like many Bulls fans claim? How do they have even the slightest relevence to this year's MVP race? I wasn't aware that a 23 year old J-Kidd was a candidate.

No one is saying that Rose isn't playing remarkably. Not just for a player his age, but for a player of any age. But he isn't having a better year than CP3, Dwight, Lebron, and others. At least not unless you're justification is "I think so."
How can you even say Chris Paul had a better year than Rose? Honestly, there's not way that's true whatsoever. If it was Paul from a couple years ago then you'd have an argument at least, but Rose had a better season this year.

Hawkeye15
04-17-2011, 03:50 PM
so because Rose is performing at a high level at a younger age he deserves criticism?

I'm confused (and high).

no, the criticism comes BECAUSE Rose is probably going to win the MVP. There is no doubt he is on a path to become one of the better PG's we have seen in a long time, but the criticism for Rose's numbers come from the MVP race, not from his overall game compared to others.

My question is basically this- why does this matter? The OP I mean. What is the point here? To compare him to other great PG's at the same age. Fine. But if he is asking why Rose gets criticism for his numbers, its because of the MVP thing. If any of those players would have been in the MVP discussion, they too would have been subjected to having tons of criticism due to numbers.

hugepatsfan
04-17-2011, 03:50 PM
How can you even say Chris Paul had a better year than Rose? Honestly, there's not way that's true whatsoever.

Better PER, more win shares, SIGNIFICANTLY higher offensive rating and the same defensive rating (despite being on a much worse defensive team, which really hurts defensive rating).

hugepatsfan
04-17-2011, 03:51 PM
no, the criticism comes BECAUSE Rose is probably going to win the MVP. There is no doubt he is on a path to become one of the better PG's we have seen in a long time, but the criticism for Rose's numbers come from the MVP race, not from his overall game compared to others.

My question is basically this- why does this matter? The OP I mean. What is the point here? To compare him to other great PG's at the same age. Fine. But if he is asking why Rose gets criticism for his numbers, its because of the MVP thing. If any of those players would have been in the MVP discussion, they too would have been subjected to having tons of criticism due to numbers.

winning

Hawkize31
04-17-2011, 03:51 PM
Take out all the half court heaves Rose has thrown up this year (has to lead the league), and his numbers are even better.

But, that's crazy talk.

Omg if you take out a bunch of his misses, his shooting perentages get better. I wonder if thats true for every player.

hugepatsfan
04-17-2011, 03:52 PM
2010-11 Derrick Rose > 23 yr old Kidd, Nash, Billups, etc.

I've yet to seen someone argue otherwise, so I'm not sure of this thread's purpose. What argument are you disproving?

Master Mind
04-17-2011, 03:52 PM
Another Rose thread

Hawkeye15
04-17-2011, 03:52 PM
How can you even say Chris Paul had a better year than Rose? Honestly, there's not way that's true whatsoever.

sure there is. Paul's advanced numbers are better than Rose's across the board, his defense is better, and he carried a crap team into the playoffs.

But this has all been covered. Most don't have any clue how to measure Paul's impact. Most are completely blinded by the Bulls team success. Wouldn't expect anything to change now

Master Mind
04-17-2011, 03:53 PM
People are trying to find ways to critisize him because you Bulls fans keep trying to cram him down everyones throats. He is good we get it.

This.

hugepatsfan
04-17-2011, 03:54 PM
sure there is. Paul's advanced numbers are better than Rose's across the board, his defense is better, and he carried a crap team into the playoffs.

But this has all been covered. Most don't have any clue how to measure Paul's impact. Most are completely blinded by the Bulls team success. Wouldn't expect anything to change now

CP3 had less defensive win shares than Rose this year. I think you have to say Rose was the better defender going by advanced stats. My eyes do tell me CP3 is better, but the whole point of advanced stats is that our eyes can be deceiving.

Hawkeye15
04-17-2011, 03:56 PM
Better PER, more win shares, SIGNIFICANTLY higher offensive rating and the same defensive rating (despite being on a much worse defensive team, which really hurts defensive rating).

you know whats interesting too? PER rewards high volume shooters, yet Paul's is still better.

finalverse
04-17-2011, 03:57 PM
lol at all the haters trying to stick together. You guys always bash Rose then when someone creates a thread to shut ya'll up...you guys don't want to hear it. I know it hurts guys but don't worry it'll all be okay soon enough lol

hugepatsfan
04-17-2011, 03:57 PM
you know whats interesting too? PER rewards high volume shooters, yet Paul's is still better.

Absolutely... that's one of the things I've noticed w/ this ongoing comparison. One of my beefs w/ PER is that it seems to reward scoring so much more heavily than any other component of basketball. Yet CP3 is still higher, despite that fact.

Hawkeye15
04-17-2011, 03:59 PM
CP3 had less defensive win shares than Rose this year. I think you have to say Rose was the better defender going by advanced stats. My eyes do tell me CP3 is better, but the whole point of advanced stats is that our eyes can be deceiving.

I rarely care about defensive win shares unless both teams of the respective players we are judging have comparable team defensive ratings.

Rose is more exciting, no doubt. But many get exciting, and better, confused

BULLSFAN0810
04-17-2011, 04:01 PM
stop. just stop.

this is what happens when a chicago team is kinda good....everything about their team becomes the best in the league...or maybe all time.

you know why ? because we dont take shyt...we dont let bums play...we hold you accountable ..your ***'ll get ran outta town if youre half stepping....so when we get something good its great...MJ taught us that. when you see greatness from then on you know how to hold yourself and others accountable. Let Boozer do what he did Sat. he'll be gone. it wont be a Joe Johnson situtation,where you suck and take all our money we'll let you go .

Hawkeye15
04-17-2011, 04:01 PM
lol at all the haters trying to stick together. You guys always bash Rose then when someone creates a thread to shut ya'll up...you guys don't want to hear it. I know it hurts guys but don't worry it'll all be okay soon enough lol

and as someone said earlier, the Bulls fans here who relentlessly cram Rose down our throat's is starting to cause the general fan to get sick of him. I love watching Rose play, but I can't stand how overrated he is by many Bulls fans. We get it, he is really good. But he isn't that great yet is the point.

drizzy101
04-17-2011, 04:02 PM
That's not true. Rose is in at the end of every quarter for the Bulls, and when we have the ball he almost always shoots it at the end of the quarter.

how much has he taken? it can't be soo much that it creates a significant jump on his shooting percentages.

PurpleJesus28
04-17-2011, 04:03 PM
How do those #s prove that he is better than Lebron right now like some Bulls fans claim? How do they prove he is better than Dwight right now like many Bulls fans claim? How do they have even the slightest relevence to this year's MVP race? I wasn't aware that a 23 year old J-Kidd was a candidate.

No one is saying that Rose isn't playing remarkably. Not just for a player his age, but for a player of any age. But he isn't having a better year than CP3, Dwight, Lebron, and others. At least not unless you're justification is "I think so."

this post has 0% to do with what the OP is saying. he's simply comparing rose in his 3rd year to other great PGs/players in their 3rd year. im assuming he's trying to make a point that he believes Rose's numbers will increase as his career continues, just like theirs have. no where does he say anything about MVP, that he's better than LeBron, or better than CP3. pulling irrelevant arguments from other threads/posters does nothing to strengthen your argument. so your right in some sense, this doesn't have this have the slightest relevance to this year's MVP race because thats not what the intention was.

if people complain so much about Rose threads (which i'll agree with them on that, there do seem to be quite a few as of late), why do you continually post in them?

Hawkeye15
04-17-2011, 04:03 PM
its amazing. Remember how many LeBron threads there were, until even the casual fan hated him? That is starting to happen with Rose. Just cool it Chicago fans. There is no need to act as if its your job to defend Rose, and to bring him into threads about PF's

Hawkeye15
04-17-2011, 04:05 PM
this post has 0% to do with what the OP is saying. he's simply comparing rose in his 3rd year to other great PGs/players in their 3rd year. im assuming he's trying to make a point that he believes Rose's numbers will increase as his career continues, just like theirs have. no where does he say anything about MVP, that he's better than LeBron, or better than CP3. pulling irrelevant arguments from other threads/posters does nothing to strengthen your argument. so your right in some sense, this doesn't have this have the slightest relevance to this year's MVP race because thats not what the intention was.

if people complain so much about Rose threads (which i'll agree with them on that, there do seem to be quite a few as of late), why do you continually post in them?


and the point is, NOBODY would be constantly criticizing Rose's numbers if he weren't the lead in the MVP race, and we didn't have Bulls fans cramming him down our throats all day.

EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER REALIZES ROSE IS A GIFTED PLAYER WHO HAS THE ABILITY TO TAKE OVER GAMES AND IS ONE OF THE BETTER YOUNG PG'S THE GAME HAS SEEN.

Why do we have to go back and forth on this guy? I mean it when I say it turns casual Rose fans into those who would rather just see him knocked out of the playoffs so we don't have to read 12 threads a day about him

drizzy101
04-17-2011, 04:06 PM
you know why ? because we dont take shyt...we dont let bums play...we hold you accountable ..your ***'ll get ran outta town if youre half stepping....so when we get something good its great...MJ taught us that. when you see greatness from then on you know how to hold yourself and others accountable. Let Boozer do what he did Sat. he'll be gone. it wont be a Joe Johnson situtation,where you suck and take all our money we'll let you go .

:rolleyes:

Cano4prez
04-17-2011, 04:07 PM
And people complain about LeBron threads..

Hawkeye15
04-17-2011, 04:08 PM
And people complain about LeBron threads..

that's so 2010 dude. Its Rose time!

D Roses Bulls
04-17-2011, 04:09 PM
alright people, lets clam this down. rose is what 22 years old? he is still very young and is playing really well for how young he is. he has his faults, but he still has a lot of time to improve his game, but I still have a feeling no matter what this guy does, he will still have people that nitpick at his game. I understand you may not like the fans that promote rose, but to put down rose for it is just kind of silly. it's not like rose has a lebron personality or the cockiness. I just don't know how someone can dislike this guy for anyother reason because of the fans that promote him.

Hawkeye15
04-17-2011, 04:11 PM
alright people, lets clam this down. rose is what 22 years old? he is still very young and is playing really well for how young he is. he has his faults, but he still has a lot of time to improve his game, but I still have a feeling no matter what this guy does, he will still have people that nitpick at his game. I understand you may not like the fans that promote rose, but to put down rose for it is just kind of silly. it's not like rose has a lebron personality or the cockiness. I just don't know how someone can dislike this guy for anyother reason because of the fans that promote him.

2 things

1- Every superstar has their game nitpicked, no matter how good they are
2- its not the fans who "promote", its the fans who act blind and "cram"

I love Rose. But i sure am sick of nearly every thread turning into a Rose vs everything thread.

D Roses Bulls
04-17-2011, 04:16 PM
2 things

1- Every superstar has their game nitpicked, no matter how good they are
2- its not the fans who "promote", its the fans who act blind and "cram"

I love Rose. But i sure am sick of nearly every thread turning into a Rose vs everything thread.

understandable...... and I do get it. but I hope you do understand that it's not always bulls fans that turn it into a rose vs everything thread. even a game thread some how seem to turn into bulls or rose threads when the bulls didn't even play that night and not always by bulls fans either.

Confusious
04-17-2011, 04:21 PM
Your sig is priceless.
Your avatar... it's Geodude!!!!!!!!!! :speechless:

D1JM
04-17-2011, 04:23 PM
if you dont like rose or your tired of rose threads and bulls fans than why come in those threads?

all the rose bashing that comes is widely accepted, yet when other certain players got bashed mods would quickly close them because of the constant name calling. instead of closing/ignoring them, all they do is complain how much rose is shoved down their throats.

Fnom11
04-17-2011, 04:24 PM
If you're watching the Lakers/Hornets game, you'll realize why CP3 is the better player/pointguard.

Hawkeye15
04-17-2011, 04:28 PM
understandable...... and I do get it. but I hop you do understand that it's not always bulls fans that turn it into a rose vs everything thread. even a game threads some how seem to turn into bulls or rose threads when the bulls didn't even play that night and not always by bulls fans either.

I apologize that I implied that, its obviously not true. Its everyone, for sure. Its just getting so annoying. The worst part is, its gotten so bad, that in the same thread, you can find me arguing against a Bulls fan about Rose's faults, and then 5 pages later, I am having to argue a Rose hater haha. There is such a huge spectrum on how people view him. I mean, does the kid need that much scrutiny? Really?

Hawkeye15
04-17-2011, 04:29 PM
If you're watching the Lakers/Hornets game, you'll realize why CP3 is the better player/pointguard.

seriously

D Roses Bulls
04-17-2011, 04:39 PM
I apologize that I implied that, its obviously not true. Its everyone, for sure. Its just getting so annoying. The worst part is, its gotten so bad, that in the same thread, you can find me arguing against a Bulls fan about Rose's faults, and then 5 pages later, I am having to argue a Rose hater haha. There is such a huge spectrum on how people view him. I mean, does the kid need that much scrutiny? Really?

it really is ridiculous

minervamob
04-17-2011, 04:53 PM
how much has he taken? it can't be soo much that it creates a significant jump on his shooting percentages.

At least 2 a game. Thats 162 heaves. And even if its just 1 a game thats 81. Bulls fans who have watched all the games know this is not an exaggerration either.

drizzy101
04-17-2011, 04:56 PM
At least 2 a game. Thats 162 heaves. And even if its just 1 a game thats 81. Bulls fans who have watched all the games know this is not an exaggerration either.

so you guys had the last possession at least twice every game behind the half court line with a few secs left.

Redbull
04-17-2011, 04:58 PM
Stop with the D-Rose threads.

drizzy101
04-17-2011, 05:00 PM
By my count, he has taken 19 and I cite them all below.”


Konrath goes on to detail how Rose’s 3-point percentage would be 35.2 percent instead of 33.2 percent if he didn’t take these shots and his overall shooting percentage would be 44.3 percent instead of 43.8 percent.

found this on a espn true hoop blog

http://bullsbythehorns.com/?p=2837

as of apr 1st so you're not even close.

GeekInThePink
04-17-2011, 05:21 PM
If you're watching the Lakers/Hornets game, you'll realize why CP3 is the better player/pointguard.

They're two different players, Rose is a high volume scorer who's still developing as a play maker, I don't really like Rose but he is one of the best players and arguably the best point guard in the league.

I've seen you assume that your opinion on everything (usually Heat bull crap) is always right before and you are by far the most bias poster (imo) on this site. Also, I am watching the Lakers/Hornets game, and I would rather have Rose.

WindyCitySox
04-17-2011, 05:43 PM
At least 2 a game. Thats 162 heaves. And even if its just 1 a game thats 81. Bulls fans who have watched all the games know this is not an exaggerration either.

:facepalm:

PhillyFaninLA
04-17-2011, 05:58 PM
To the TC and the other 100 people that keep comparing Iverson to PG's......ALLEN IVERSON SHOOTING GUARD NOT POINT GUARD....75% of his career or so he was shooting guard

PhillyFaninLA
04-17-2011, 06:01 PM
Half those dudes started out when the NBA allowed hand checking. This should not be over looked



It also leaves how the teams they played on, the reason they have the stats they do, the league rules but you said that, the teams they play against, insignificant points like why the stats could happen.

I really hope Derick Rose becomes an complete bust after this season after all these Bulls fan comments and posts....a month ago I actually liked and rooted for Rose to a degree now I just can't stand him because of his own teams fans.

PhillyFaninLA
04-17-2011, 06:04 PM
And people complain about LeBron threads..


Who'd of thought that day would come where I'd miss Lebron, Kobe, and Favre threads.

OnWisconsin2007
04-17-2011, 06:07 PM
Let's see Derrick Rose at least make the finals before we get too crazy. He had a great season, but as of right now, that's it. 1 great season...

Fnom11
04-17-2011, 06:10 PM
They're two different players, Rose is a high volume scorer who's still developing as a play maker, I don't really like Rose but he is one of the best players and arguably the best point guard in the league.

I've seen you assume that your opinion on everything (usually Heat bull crap) is always right before and you are by far the most bias poster (imo) on this site. Also, I am watching the Lakers/Hornets game, and I would rather have Rose.


A healthy CP3 can be a high volume scorer, GREAT playermaker, GREAT defensive asset and is clutch. Rose while being a fantastic scorers, and being very clutch, is a sub par passer and his D is average at best.

I also would take Rose over CP3 because Chris is injury prone, but that doesn't make him a better player.

GodsSon
04-17-2011, 06:14 PM
First off, it's CRITICIZE. Secondly, Bulls forum.

There are 450 players in the NBA, why is every other thread on the NBA forum about ONE of them?

BULLSFAN0810
04-17-2011, 06:15 PM
if you dont like rose or your tired of rose threads and bulls fans than why come in those threads?

all the rose bashing that comes is widely accepted, yet when other certain players got bashed mods would quickly close them because of the constant name calling. instead of closing/ignoring them, all they do is complain how much rose is shoved down their throats.

:clap:

ManRam
04-17-2011, 06:20 PM
This thread has been very unproductive lately...

There's plenty of threads where this can be discussed, we don't need another, it's just gonna lead to flame war galore.