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C-Style
04-15-2011, 11:40 PM
The NBA hasn't always dealt fines for anti-gay remarks

The NBA hasn't always taken swift and decisive action against players who make anti-gay slurs, like the $100,000 fine that was dealt Kobe Bryant yesterday.

During the 2009 playoffs Denver's Kenyon Martin spewed homophobic profanity at Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban that was more obscene than Bryant's outburst.

And although Martin was fined $25,000 for a hard foul on Dirk Nowitzki, he was not disciplined for the anti-gay outburst at Cuban.

Here's the YouTube of Martin's tirade, but be forewarned that the language is XXX-rated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jgxlPfSr-0&feature=youtu.be

The other notable example of the NBA's reaction to such talk came in 2007, when NBA Representative Tim Hardaway and his "I hate gay people" remark resulted in him being banished from All-Star Weekend activities in Las Vegas. But he too wasn't fined.
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/17160685/

Seems more and more vids are showing up; apparently there also was the 2008 Playoffs Celtics vs Cavaliers with Kevin Garnett (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1suVaSql5s).

Geargo Wallace
04-15-2011, 11:48 PM
learning from their mistakes maybe? I bet the next person to make a homophobic slur will get a similar or fitting fine. Kobe make a kagillion dollars so w/e. Pocket change to him.

Lakers + Giants
04-16-2011, 12:02 AM
Like Tony and Mike from PTI said. If it were Steve Blake or any other Laker nobody would make a big deal out of this. It was kobe so it was BREAKING NEWS :facepalm:

Idontcare
04-16-2011, 12:12 AM
+1 ^^

SMH!
04-16-2011, 12:21 AM
Like Tony and Mike from PTI said. If it were Steve Blake or any other Laker nobody would make a big deal out of this. It was kobe so it was BREAKING NEWS :facepalm:

True but like the human rights assocation said, Kobe is an idol kids look up too, so maybe thats why, but Dont get me wrong, I did not care what kobe said, I didnt think he deserved a fine, a warning would do just fine.

John Walls Era
04-16-2011, 12:36 AM
People need to chill at watch that South Park episode. The term: F*gg*t has completely changed... its a term that is used everyday, not because of discriminating against gays.

Mishmin
04-16-2011, 12:39 AM
I agree that it could be called hypocritical in relation to past responses to this kind of thing, but also remember that the NBA had a Stern "makeover" this year. Maybe this is a part of his whole NEW NBA idealism.

Who better to make an example than the best player in the league.

Storch
04-16-2011, 12:40 AM
Since when has that remark really meant gay? I don't remember anyone in my whole life using that to mean its' literal meaning. It's transformed into a common remark to call someone an idiot or ahole.

LakersMaster24
04-16-2011, 12:58 AM
Since when has that remark really meant gay? I don't remember anyone in my whole life using that to mean its' literal meaning. It's transformed into a common remark to call someone an idiot or ahole.

This.

Its just that the gay&lesbians tend to take every single remark up the anus. They ask for an apology every-time you say ANYTHING negative about gay people.

championships
04-16-2011, 01:27 AM
The only reason the NBA fined Kobe was because the gay activist groups made a big deal of the whole thing. When Martin did it no one comlpained therefor the NBA didn't give a **** then.

GoatMilk
04-16-2011, 01:32 AM
it's just, isnt the N word technically a slur as well?
that is always on audio and never fined, but a gay slur is.
if they're going to fine for one slur, then they need to do it for all

Schmiggy
04-16-2011, 01:56 AM
This damn country is just getting too P.C. It's absurd. Can't say one negative thing now days without upsetting NAMBLA, minorities, fudge pounders, muff divers, crackers, nerds, feminist brats, dumb@sses, non-shaving euros, corrupt politicians, etc.

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 03:21 AM
This.

Its just that the gay&lesbians tend to take every single remark up the anus. They ask for an apology every-time you say ANYTHING negative about gay people.

Of course they do. You shouldn't be saying anything negative about people for being gay in the first place. That should be obvious. Denigrating people for their sexuality isn't acceptable and they will fight against it rightfully. The people in the wrong are those who are anti-gay.

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 03:23 AM
Since when has that remark really meant gay? I don't remember anyone in my whole life using that to mean its' literal meaning. It's transformed into a common remark to call someone an idiot or ahole.

The reason it's transformed is because of homophobia. It's become a general insult because gay has been seen as a general insult. Now that gay is getting more acceptance, the usage of anti-gay slurs are being exposed as hateful---which they are, and always have been.

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 03:25 AM
People need to chill at watch that South Park episode. The term: F*gg*t has completely changed... its a term that is used everyday, not because of discriminating against gays.
The fact it is used by some on a daily occurrence is NOT acceptable whatsoever and highlights a major mentality issue. Murder happens every day too, it's not OK.

The word is anti-gay. This isn't a TV show. This is real life. The gay community finds it offensive, because of the historical context of the word. The reason the word is popular is because of homophobia. It's wrong. Telling them to chill is dismissing their feelings and insulting.

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 03:30 AM
I love basketball, Kobe is one of my favorite players, but the bottom line is, hate speech has no place in society, it needs to be eliminated. Things have changed a lot in 2 years, yes, even since 2009. There is more awareness and acceptance of the gay community and their struggles. Thus, they have more social power. A lot people think they can just denigrate them whenever they want because "everyone does it" (wrong), because "i didn't mean it that way(weak excuse, bad actions are still bad), and because it's not anti-gay(yet none of you are gay so you have no right to tell gay people what to feel).

This isn't about any heterosexual. It's about the gay community and anti-gay slurs. It's that simple. Kobe messed up, he payed the price, and the message has been sent, this language is wrong, and using it will result in consequences. Nothing to do with being PC, but instead having respect and treating people the way you want to be treated.

5ass
04-16-2011, 03:37 AM
People need to chill at watch that South Park episode. The term: F*gg*t has completely changed... its a term that is used everyday, not because of discriminating against gays.

exactly, once they see this episode everything will be solved

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 03:44 AM
A TV show isn't real life. Should we use Jersey Shore as an example of how all Italian-Americans are? Should we use Family Guy as an example as how families should behave?

That says A LOT about how stupid people are about the gay issue. People know more about gays from South Park, a show about 9 year old vulgar kids, than actually talking with, knowing and befriending gay people. Which, again, is due to the lack of respect many have of gay people, which is why gay slurs exist.

kArSoN RyDaH
04-16-2011, 03:45 AM
I'd be getting fined all the time then in the NBA. These guys should be able to say WTF they want. It's their image and they have to live with the people who "judge" them. Let it be. If people want to say derogatory things, so be it.

5ass
04-16-2011, 03:52 AM
A TV show isn't real life. Should we use Jersey Shore as an example of how all Italian-Americans are? Should we use Family Guy as an example as how families should behave?

That says A LOT about how stupid people are about the gay issue. People know more about gays from South Park, a show about 9 year old vulgar kids, than actually talking with, knowing and befriending gay people. Which, again, is due to the lack of respect many have of gay people, which is why gay slurs exist.
chill, i was just kidding. im glad u like my sense of humor lol

John Walls Era
04-16-2011, 04:02 AM
A TV show isn't real life. Should we use Jersey Shore as an example of how all Italian-Americans are? Should we use Family Guy as an example as how families should behave?

That says A LOT about how stupid people are about the gay issue. People know more about gays from South Park, a show about 9 year old vulgar kids, than actually talking with, knowing and befriending gay people. Which, again, is due to the lack of respect many have of gay people, which is why gay slurs exist.

Don't compare Jersey s*it with South Park. I'm sorry if you're offended, but the truth of the matter is that rarely anyone uses the word intended to discriminate gays. So I really don't see a problem with what Kobe did.

MelkyNYY
04-16-2011, 04:11 AM
This is actually a lot tougher to comment on than I originally thought. It's easy to get on our respective moral soap boxes and say: "All slurs are bad, all of the time."

Ideally, we would all love to live in a world where no one says a mean thing about another person or group. But in this country, we are allowed to hate whomever we want to hate as long as we don't harm them. Now, I'm not saying Kobe Bryant hates homosexuals, but what if he does? Does it make him any less of a basketball player? Kobe has done various other things that make him less of a human being but his fans don't care.

If people started bemoaning athletes for their character flaws no one would cheer for anyone besides Tim Tebow. It makes me feel uncomfortable to say this but, I don't care if Kobe said ********T or any other slur in the book. It just makes him a jerk. If the NBA wants to start fining people for being jerks players are going to be left bankrupt.

LakersMaster24
04-16-2011, 04:37 AM
Of course they do. You shouldn't be saying anything negative about people for being gay in the first place. That should be obvious. Denigrating people for their sexuality isn't acceptable and they will fight against it rightfully. The people in the wrong are those who are anti-gay.

Agree 100%, its their choice, i dont care what they do. The thing I am saying is that they shouldnt be hurt or ask for an apology for small things like this. Kobe was in the heat of the game. Also, when we say "faggit", how many of us actually mean the word "homosexual"? You see what I mean here?

kArSoN RyDaH
04-16-2011, 04:38 AM
Let them say what they want.

MelkyNYY
04-16-2011, 05:39 AM
Agree 100%, its their choice, i dont care what they do.

I agree with you here. If Kobe wants to ruin his his image, ruin potential sponsorships, and ruin his reputation it is up to him. It's 100% his choice to do and say what he wants as long as it's legal.


The thing I am saying is that they shouldnt be hurt or ask for an apology for small things like this.

By "they" I assume you mean homosexuals. You're right that they shouldn't be asking for an apology. But to say they "shouldn't be hurt" by the comment is silly. Of course it's alright to be hurt by the comment. It's a slur. Though it may be a "small thing" to you, it's not a small thing to a homosexual.


Kobe was in the heat of the game.

I don't care about Kobe's excuses. I don't care about excuses that Laker fans have come up with for Kobe. It's irrelevant. He can say whatever he wants.


Also, when we say "faggit", how many of us actually mean the word "homosexual"? You see what I mean here?


This is by far the silliest rebuttal to the situation. Yes, certain words evolve in our vernacular to the point where their meaning becomes ambiguous but the word in question is not one of those words. I understand the point you are trying to make but it really doesn't matter.

The best defense is: he's an adult, he can say what he wants, and he has to accept the consequences (in the court of public opinion). A fine, is silly.

MelkyNYY
04-16-2011, 05:39 AM
double post.

John Walls Era
04-16-2011, 05:47 AM
TBF Kobe was never the class act hes made out to be on camera. The guy is arrogant and extremely cocky... which is why I really like him.

Draco
04-16-2011, 07:20 AM
Don't compare Jersey s*it with South Park. I'm sorry if you're offended, but the truth of the matter is that rarely anyone uses the word intended to discriminate gays. So I really don't see a problem with what Kobe did.

You should familiarize yourself with the term, epistemological privilege. Because in this context, you're probably not in the group of people that has it.

FWIW, I don't consider this a PC issue.

jimm120
04-16-2011, 08:11 AM
Like some others have said, that "f" word and the "g" word...I've never really heard it said as a discrimination. Of course, I've heard, "Oh, is he gay?" if someone was actually gay. But Never really did I hear the term and hear it used as a term for discrimination.

Now here in lies the problem.

Growing up in Brooklyn, NY, I heard ONLY the "n" word...but not the bad N word. The one that means "bro", "dawg", the one that ends with an A. I thought that the "bad N word" that ends with "-er" just didn't exist in this world, though I had heard rumors that people from the redneck states used it...but I thought it was mostly people from trailer trash places or older people.

So, I get on Xbox live in 2006...and I hear the word...the one that ends with "-er"...and yes, I've heard it as a racial slur. But I've also heard it as a "curse". And even as a curse I think its wrong.


So this brings us back to our other argument with the "f" and "g" words for homosexuals. I find it acceptable to use as a curse word. Still, I don't use it but I find it acceptable. In the end, though, wouldn't it be the same situation as the N word that ends with "-er"? Shouldn't it be frowned upon to use at all?

Shouldn't it?

just my take on it. NOt making a definiting decision on it, but aren't they the same situation?...almost...cause ya know, racisim was MUCH more torturous and the length of time was MUCH longer, but still...

DenButsu
04-16-2011, 08:16 AM
Like Tony and Mike from PTI said. If it were Steve Blake or any other Laker nobody would make a big deal out of this. It was kobe so it was BREAKING NEWS :facepalm:

Ha. That is such Kobe (or insert your favorite star here) always gets victimized bull****.

I'm a huge Nuggets fan, and I'll be the first to say that i fully agree with Issel getting fired for his racist outburst, and just like Kobe did, Kenyon should have been fined for his bigoted remarks. And it shames me as a Nuggets fan that he made them in the first place.

Anyone in any job who called a coworker a bigoted slur would certainty lose their job. It's much much more than reasonable to hold these divas who make millions off our dollars to the same standards of professionalism.

Tulanehockey
04-16-2011, 08:50 AM
The NBA reserves the right to fine its employees for actions against its image, however Kobe can say whatever he wants in public (free speech) if he's willing to suffer the consequences, and in the end the fine will probably never be paid.

FadeAwayLikeMJ
04-16-2011, 09:32 AM
i dont care what term or slur he said. but i dont think they should be saying that kind of **** to refs

(and i hate refs as much as the next guy)

AndyfromNeptune
04-16-2011, 09:32 AM
You guys are acting like this is a case of free speech?

It is clearly not.

When you are in a workplace environment, (yes a basketball court is just the same as an office space) you are expected to be upheld to a certain code of conduct. Sexually harrassing words or racial slurs are unacceptable and deserve punishment whether it was said "in the heat of the moment" or not.

These guys, when they sign their contracts, are representing their teams ,their organizations, and the NBA. While saying the word "f ag" is their choice, because they are under contract while making that choice, it reflects poorly on their employers. Sponsors do not like to align themselves with teams that have players that make such "poor choices". Thus, these players should be fined and punished in order to maintain the good image of a team.


While those are economic reasons the fining makes sense, morally it does not make sense to say any words that have homosexual hate at their roots.

You may see the word as just another curse word, but to others it can be very hurtful.

Doogolas
04-16-2011, 09:34 AM
This is actually a lot tougher to comment on than I originally thought. It's easy to get on our respective moral soap boxes and say: "All slurs are bad, all of the time."

Ideally, we would all love to live in a world where no one says a mean thing about another person or group. But in this country, we are allowed to hate whomever we want to hate as long as we don't harm them. Now, I'm not saying Kobe Bryant hates homosexuals, but what if he does? Does it make him any less of a basketball player? Kobe has done various other things that make him less of a human being but his fans don't care.

If people started bemoaning athletes for their character flaws no one would cheer for anyone besides Tim Tebow. It makes me feel uncomfortable to say this but, I don't care if Kobe said ********T or any other slur in the book. It just makes him a jerk. If the NBA wants to start fining people for being jerks players are going to be left bankrupt.

That's not true. You can definitely cheer for an ******* when he's on your team. It doesn't mean that when he does something blatantly douchey that he shouldn't be in trouble for it. Should Kobe not be in trouble if he speeds?

When you do something wrong, you should find there are consequences. Kobe did something wrong here, he is a man that is an idol to a shitload of people and he should try to live up to that standard by setting a good example. When he does not, the people that made him an idol should punish him.

It doesn't mean you can't cheer for him.

Mishmin
04-16-2011, 09:39 AM
You guys are acting like this is a case of free speech?

It is clearly not.

When you are in a workplace environment, (yes a basketball court is just the same as an office space) you are expected to be upheld to a certain code of conduct. Sexually harrassing words or racial slurs are unacceptable and deserve punishment whether it was said "in the heat of the moment" or not.

These guys, when they sign their contracts, are representing their teams ,their organizations, and the NBA. While saying the word "f ag" is their choice, because they are under contract while making that choice, it reflects poorly on their employers. Sponsors do not like to align themselves with teams that have players that make such "poor choices". Thus, these players should be fined and punished in order to maintain the good image of a team.


While those are economic reasons the fining makes sense, morally it does not make sense to say any words that have homosexual hate at their roots.

You may see the word as just another curse word, but to others it can be very hurtful.

I agree. Nice post, Andy. Welcome to the forum.

justinnum1
04-16-2011, 09:46 AM
Only reason he is not suspended, is the next game is a playoff game.

theheatles
04-16-2011, 10:16 AM
obviously kobe is held to a higher standard and this is as harsh because LA has 1 of the biggest gay/lesbian communities in the country, but at the very least the fine should be reduced.

hugepatsfan
04-16-2011, 10:22 AM
Since when has that remark really meant gay? I don't remember anyone in my whole life using that to mean its' literal meaning. It's transformed into a common remark to call someone an idiot or ahole.

I totally get where you're coming from with this. But that word is offensive so I can see why homosexuals would look back on its past meaning.

cmellofan15
04-16-2011, 10:35 AM
In K Mart's defense, Mark Cuban is a ****ing ******.

mikealike305
04-16-2011, 10:49 AM
you guys are acting like this is a case of free speech?

It is clearly not.

When you are in a workplace environment, (yes a basketball court is just the same as an office space) you are expected to be upheld to a certain code of conduct. Sexually harrassing words or racial slurs are unacceptable and deserve punishment whether it was said "in the heat of the moment" or not.

These guys, when they sign their contracts, are representing their teams ,their organizations, and the nba. While saying the word "f ag" is their choice, because they are under contract while making that choice, it reflects poorly on their employers. Sponsors do not like to align themselves with teams that have players that make such "poor choices". Thus, these players should be fined and punished in order to maintain the good image of a team.


While those are economic reasons the fining makes sense, morally it does not make sense to say any words that have homosexual hate at their roots.

You may see the word as just another curse word, but to others it can be very hurtful.

good post

but "these players should be fined and punished in order to maintain the good image of a team"?
Do u honestlly think fineing them or "punishing" them really makes a difference? 1, if someone is hurt by what kobe said do u think making kobe pay what he spends a week on dinner is going to make that hurt person feel better?
2, do u think that is going to stop it from happening again? No. It wont.
I understand that what kobe said isnt right and being that kobe is a "role model" (which he shouldnt be) he needs to conduct himself accordinly but making him pay a fine isnt going to change anything.

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 11:16 AM
Don't compare Jersey s*it with South Park. I'm sorry if you're offended, but the truth of the matter is that rarely anyone uses the word intended to discriminate gays. So I really don't see a problem with what Kobe did.
The thing is, though, that it isn't up to heterosexuals to decide what the word means or the intent of it, because it's a slur that has long term connections to the gay community, in a negative way. NOT COMPARING, but the n-word is generally seen as the black communities' word. Same with sp*c, it's seen as the hispanic communities' word. And we can go on from there. Men wouldn't outwardly use the word b***h or c*nt to a woman, and if they did, there would be major consequence and backlash.

And that is what a lot of people don't seem to realize. The REASON why the f-bomb has become somewhat normalized, is because gay people aren't respected as equal human beings and legal citizens. Just because the intent is one thing, doesn't mean the actions are a totally different thing. The action is still very hurtful to the gay community for a legitimate reason, that can't be dismissed.

mikealike305
04-16-2011, 11:29 AM
the thing is, though, that it isn't up to heterosexuals to decide what the word means or the intent of it, because it's a slur that has long term connections to the gay community, in a negative way. Not comparing, but the n-word is generally seen as the black communities' word. Same with sp*c, it's seen as the hispanic communities' word. And we can go on from there. Men wouldn't outwardly use the word b***h or c*nt to a woman, and if they did, there would be major consequence and backlash.

And that is what a lot of people don't seem to realize. The reason why the f-bomb has become somewhat normalized, is because gay people aren't respected as equal human beings and legal citizens. Just because the intent is one thing, doesn't mean the actions are a totally different thing. The action is still very hurtful to the gay community for a legitimate reason, that can't be dismissed.

wait i agreed til "the reason why the f-bomb has become somewhat normalized, is because gay people aren't respected as equal human beings and legal citizens."
i couldnt disagree more. Im all for gay rights, i have 2 gay sisters and 2 gay male cusins (one in the navy) and i use the f-bomb myself. Do i respesct gays? Of course, like i said im related to 4 of them.
The reason why it has become normalized is because the meaning has changed. The f-bomb isnt used as a slur agaisnt gays anymore, almost like 2 black men saying the n---a to eachother. Of couse slightly different case but similar. It is not used against them. It is no longer (commonly) used as a "gay slur" but more as a slur for anyone. I admit i use that slur more offen than most yet i have not once used it to a gay person

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 11:32 AM
This is actually a lot tougher to comment on than I originally thought. It's easy to get on our respective moral soap boxes and say: "All slurs are bad, all of the time."

Ideally, we would all love to live in a world where no one says a mean thing about another person or group. But in this country, we are allowed to hate whomever we want to hate as long as we don't harm them. Now, I'm not saying Kobe Bryant hates homosexuals, but what if he does? Does it make him any less of a basketball player? Kobe has done various other things that make him less of a human being but his fans don't care.

If people started bemoaning athletes for their character flaws no one would cheer for anyone besides Tim Tebow. It makes me feel uncomfortable to say this but, I don't care if Kobe said ********T or any other slur in the book. It just makes him a jerk. If the NBA wants to start fining people for being jerks players are going to be left bankrupt.
The thing is twofold, though. First of all, negative things shouldn't be taken as positives, and dismissed. If something is wrong, then it's wrong. Men who think women are beneath them, are considered wrong by most. They aren't given a pass for their hate. Terry Jones, the man in Florida who burnt the Qur'an, was not given a pass. Allowing people to just say and do whatever they please and giving them a pass, regardless of how egregious what they did, is not a path we want to head on in society. That line of thinking justifies these attitudes, and fosters a culture where they thrive. That cannot be allowed in a civil society. We all have character flaws, but there is a difference between that and flat out having a belief system that inherently denigrates an entire group of citizens. We all have the right to believe what we want, but that's as far as that goes. We all have to take responsibility for our actions.

Now on to the second point. Kobe is one of the top 3 most famous, top 3 best players in the NBA. He plays in a city that, quite frankly, is run by gays in many aspects. He plays for one of the top 3 most prestigious teams in the NBA. Kobe using the f-bomb, in a time where gay awareness is higher than ever, during a week where millions of kids and young adults are remembering and honoring those victim to gay suicides and preventing anti-gay bulling, during a time where our society is more and more gay accepting daily, was something David Stern could NOT allow slip as just something that "happened". The playoffs are here. The Lakers are 2-time defending champions. Having this issue on the doorstep of the NBA would have been ugly. Kobe used a word that offends millions and has been used to beat, maim and kill gay and straight individuals worldwide. He's an NBA icon. He's a sports icon. He's one of the main representatives of the league and, for better or worse, he's a role model. There is simply no way that this could be swept under the rug. It may be unfair to Kobe, but when you are in the position Kobe is in, you have more responsibilities.

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 11:38 AM
wait i agreed til "the reason why the f-bomb has become somewhat normalized, is because gay people aren't respected as equal human beings and legal citizens."
i couldnt disagree more. Im all for gay rights, i have 2 gay sisters and 2 gay male cusins (one in the navy) and i use the f-bomb myself. Do i respesct gays? Of course, like i said im related to 4 of them.
The reason why it has become normalized is because the meaning has changed. The f-bomb isnt used as a slur agaisnt gays anymore, almost like 2 black men saying the n---a to eachother. Of couse slightly different case but similar. It is not used against them. It is no longer (commonly) used as a "gay slur" but more as a slur for anyone. I admit i use that slur more offen than most yet i have not once used it to a gay person
The meaning hasn't really changed, though. It's just become normalized. It's just become another word, but the word itself hasn't become a positive one or one used in jest. It's still seen as a negative slur, and when used against someone, it's almost always used negatively. The n-word in many communities is used in jest. When calling someone a fa**ot, you aren't saying "hey man, you're great!" No. You're meaning to cut him down and clown him.

And, yes, the f-bomb is definitely used against gay people. Anti-gay bullying is still very common in parts of this country, with the f-bomb used against these gay people as a means to dehumanize them. The reason it's a slur for anyone to use the f-word or "that's so gay" is the link of gay=bad. Not everyone realizes this, and not everyone thinks like this when using the word, but that's why the word has developed into what it is today. You don't hear any of those other slurs used like the f-word is used, and there is a reason for that.

MelkyNYY
04-16-2011, 11:44 AM
That's not true. You can definitely cheer for an ******* when he's on your team. It doesn't mean that when he does something blatantly douchey that he shouldn't be in trouble for it. Should Kobe not be in trouble if he speeds?

If the NBA has a "code of conduct" policy that covers "hate speech" I'd like to see it. If it exists, then Kobe should rightfully be find for his actions. Unfortunately, past instances have gone without fine. Starting with Kobe because he's Kobe is silly and ridiculous, but I digress.


When you do something wrong, you should find there are consequences. Kobe did something wrong here, he is a man that is an idol to a shitload of people and he should try to live up to that standard by setting a good example. When he does not, the people that made him an idol should punish him.


I don't think you understood my post. Kobe can say whatever he wants. He will suffer the consequences. It's not his job to set a good example.


It doesn't mean you can't cheer for him.


I never said that you shouldn't cheer for Kobe.

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 11:44 AM
Agree 100%, its their choice, i dont care what they do. The thing I am saying is that they shouldnt be hurt or ask for an apology for small things like this. Kobe was in the heat of the game. Also, when we say "faggit", how many of us actually mean the word "homosexual"? You see what I mean here?
I see what you mean, but that doesn't make the word acceptable, because it's not the intent that matters here, it's the context and the word itself that's the offense. Kobe isn't homophobic I don't think, but the context he used the f-word was to belittle and insult, which is the way most people use it. It's not a joking term, it's not a term used in jest. It's a term used to belittle. The fact people do NOT think of gay people before using it is actually an issue, because we should always think before we say something we may regret later.

The gay community has the right to be hurt accordingly, because of this lack of awareness from others about why the word is so offense to them, which they take as a lack of respect towards them. That's one of the main reasons why they are so hurt, they feel mocked and made fun of by society. This issue is way deeper than most people realize, that's why everyone should really talk to a gay person or see the gay communities' arguments on exactly why this word is so offensive. It has a long-term anti-gay historical context dating back to the 13th century.

People sometimes make mistakes during pressurized situations, but mistakes are still mistakes, and they shouldn't be glossed over.

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 11:48 AM
So this brings us back to our other argument with the "f" and "g" words for homosexuals. I find it acceptable to use as a curse word. Still, I don't use it but I find it acceptable. In the end, though, wouldn't it be the same situation as the N word that ends with "-er"? Shouldn't it be frowned upon to use at all?

Shouldn't it?

just my take on it. NOt making a definiting decision on it, but aren't they the same situation?...almost...cause ya know, racisim was MUCH more torturous and the length of time was MUCH longer, but still...

Yes.

BTW, racism is still a major issue today, and anti-gay actions have taken place since pretty much the introduction of traditional puritan belief codes in human society. So that's an extremely long time, throughout human history. Even today, homosexuality is illegal in like 1/3 of the world. That can't be ignored.

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 11:52 AM
Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from responsibility.

tredigs
04-16-2011, 11:59 AM
People need to take into account that he's the face of the NBA and lives in a market with a heavy gay population - the rules are different.

Stern decided to take very quick, very strict action to try and put the cover over this as soon as possible heading into the post-season. Smart, disciplined marketing move by the NBA.

100K means nothing to Kobe, and he didn't complain. It was handled very, very well.

and @ 101flyboy above me, well put. People get fired for comments protected by "freedom of speech" every day. Try saying this kind of comment to your boss at an office job.

joeboow90
04-16-2011, 12:26 PM
I understand that he shouldn't have said it but this word is used everyday. a lot of people are making a big deal of this but i think its stupid. there are much bigger problems we should we paying attention to rather then "Kobe says **********". this is whats wrong with the world today why are people paying so much attention to this incident when this word is used every day regularly. this isnt a big deal move on

DenButsu
04-16-2011, 12:43 PM
I understand that he shouldn't have said it but this word is used everyday. a lot of people are making a big deal of this but i think its stupid. there are much bigger problems we should we paying attention to rather then "Kobe says **********". this is whats wrong with the world today why are people paying so much attention to this incident when this word is used every day regularly. this isnt a big deal move on

"The word is used everyday, by a lot of people."

So, who gives a ****? Other bigoted terms are used every day by a lot of people, too. For example:

If the word N----- was used by a white NBA player, would there even be a debate about this?

Answer is: No, of ****ing course not. His *** would be toast.



The only reason anybody thinks Kobe should get off the hook here is because, let's face it, you think bigotry against gays (albeit shrouded in a so-called "innocent" term) should be acceptable. Period.

And if you disagree, then tell me why it isn't also be acceptable (because according to the same logic, it damn well should) to use sp--, ni----, ki--, etc.

Let's keep it real: Those don't fly because it's socially unacceptable to insult those groups of people, but f----- flies because it's still socially acceptable to insult "f-----s".

And by the year 2020, the people who now defend the use of the term "f-----" will look pretty much the same as those who still used the term "negro" in the early 1970s.

So be part of the future, or be part of the past: The choice is yours.

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 12:45 PM
I understand that he shouldn't have said it but this word is used everyday. a lot of people are making a big deal of this but i think its stupid. there are much bigger problems we should we paying attention to rather then "Kobe says **********". this is whats wrong with the world today why are people paying so much attention to this incident when this word is used every day regularly. this isnt a big deal move on

Breaking and entering crimes and murder also happen every day. I guess we should get over it, because it just happens, and nothing we do will stop it, so who cares.

LakersMaster24
04-16-2011, 02:10 PM
I agree with you here. If Kobe wants to ruin his his image, ruin potential sponsorships, and ruin his reputation it is up to him. It's 100% his choice to do and say what he wants as long as it's legal.



By "they" I assume you mean homosexuals. You're right that they shouldn't be asking for an apology. But to say they "shouldn't be hurt" by the comment is silly. Of course it's alright to be hurt by the comment. It's a slur. Though it may be a "small thing" to you, it's not a small thing to a homosexual.



I don't care about Kobe's excuses. I don't care about excuses that Laker fans have come up with for Kobe. It's irrelevant. He can say whatever he wants.



This is by far the silliest rebuttal to the situation. Yes, certain words evolve in our vernacular to the point where their meaning becomes ambiguous but the word in question is not one of those words. I understand the point you are trying to make but it really doesn't matter.

The best defense is: he's an adult, he can say what he wants, and he has to accept the consequences (in the court of public opinion). A fine, is silly.

Great breakdown of the situation :clap: :)

AIRMAR72
04-16-2011, 02:36 PM
well lets be fair, kobe CRYant gets more bad call than any star player in the league he was wrong for his choice of words but its hard for anyone to hold their tonque in a heated battle he shouldve been fine more because there ARE gay guys in the LEAGUE rite now john amachi came out the closet some decade ago but im sure there other guys in todays NBA im NOT GAY but ive meet a few who PLAYED in the league i think they born that way and cant help themselve from not liking the same sex but their only human and sociaty need to respect who they are and kobe suppose to KNOW better BUT than AGAIN hes FAKE

B'sCeltsPatsSox
04-16-2011, 03:22 PM
Didn't Cuban say something to Martins mom before that. Thats probably why his fine was less.

Qwertys
04-16-2011, 04:09 PM
The PC in this country is so pathetic, people are way to sensitive.

bulldog312
04-16-2011, 04:19 PM
if they're going to fine for one slur, then they need to do it for all

This. And you can't possibly do that. Players say so many "slurs" on the floor during every single game. I bet Kobe has said that hundreds of times over the course of his career.

GiantBlueBalls
04-16-2011, 05:24 PM
Breaking and entering crimes and murder also happen every day. I guess we should get over it, because it just happens, and nothing we do will stop it, so who cares.


Slow your roll dawg...your posts are well written and your logic is sound, but you are so self righteous that you are missing the other side of the coin...some people dont have morals, some people have bad morals. Some people hate gays just like some people hate muslims. Is it wrong? sure....but really, who decides what is right and wrong? Apparently you do. Dude slurs are words, and words are sounds that represent ideas. words themselves dont hurt...it is the perception of the person hearing the word that can cause the word to be harmful or not. What i mean is, if you are so bothered by the word f aggot, then you should adjust your mental understanding of society to realize that, whether you like it or not, it IS a word in common usage, many people use it to mean different things, and its not up to you to change the world. You can however, change yourself, by realizing that you are only allowing this hateful word to hurt you. Many people have hatred towards gays because they percieve that gays are ruining the moral society they cherish. They use slurs to manifest this hatred. Yes, this is crass and ignorant and hurtful...but you have to understand that pain begets pain...someone who feels hurt and offended by the apparent invasion of gayness that has overtaken our country has every right to express his anger. Kobe should have kept his mouth shut because he was talking to an official and he knows hes a role model...but you cant be so close-minded as to say that anyone who uses this word is committing a hate crime. Aint nothing but a word. By the way...to discuss morality in this day and age is pointless. We live in a country that values many things over morality...lets fix the politics and the education and the social structure before we start worrying about how to talk to each other nicely.

SugeKnight
04-16-2011, 06:31 PM
You guys are acting like this is a case of free speech?

It is clearly not.

When you are in a workplace environment, (yes a basketball court is just the same as an office space) you are expected to be upheld to a certain code of conduct. Sexually harrassing words or racial slurs are unacceptable and deserve punishment whether it was said "in the heat of the moment" or not.

These guys, when they sign their contracts, are representing their teams ,their organizations, and the NBA. While saying the word "f ag" is their choice, because they are under contract while making that choice, it reflects poorly on their employers. Sponsors do not like to align themselves with teams that have players that make such "poor choices". Thus, these players should be fined and punished in order to maintain the good image of a team.


While those are economic reasons the fining makes sense, morally it does not make sense to say any words that have homosexual hate at their roots.

You may see the word as just another curse word, but to others it can be very hurtful.

Stop being so sensitive. You rather have players act like corporate business men rather than ball player.

Sasuke11
04-16-2011, 06:37 PM
Slow your roll dawg...your posts are well written and your logic is sound, but you are so self righteous that you are missing the other side of the coin...some people dont have morals, some people have bad morals. Some people hate gays just like some people hate muslims. Is it wrong? sure....but really, who decides what is right and wrong? Apparently you do. Dude slurs are words, and words are sounds that represent ideas. words themselves dont hurt...it is the perception of the person hearing the word that can cause the word to be harmful or not. What i mean is, if you are so bothered by the word f aggot, then you should adjust your mental understanding of society to realize that, whether you like it or not, it IS a word in common usage, many people use it to mean different things, and its not up to you to change the world. You can however, change yourself, by realizing that you are only allowing this hateful word to hurt you. Many people have hatred towards gays because they percieve that gays are ruining the moral society they cherish. They use slurs to manifest this hatred. Yes, this is crass and ignorant and hurtful...but you have to understand that pain begets pain...someone who feels hurt and offended by the apparent invasion of gayness that has overtaken our country has every right to express his anger. Kobe should have kept his mouth shut because he was talking to an official and he knows hes a role model...but you cant be so close-minded as to say that anyone who uses this word is committing a hate crime. Aint nothing but a word. By the way...to discuss morality in this day and age is pointless. We live in a country that values many things over morality...lets fix the politics and the education and the social structure before we start worrying about how to talk to each other nicely.

Slam dunk, walk off gram slam. This post x10 - couldn't have said it better myself :clap:

Trueblue2
04-16-2011, 07:36 PM
The fact it is used by some on a daily occurrence is NOT acceptable whatsoever and highlights a major mentality issue. Murder happens every day too, it's not OK.

The word is anti-gay. This isn't a TV show. This is real life. The gay community finds it offensive, because of the historical context of the word. The reason the word is popular is because of homophobia. It's wrong. Telling them to chill is dismissing their feelings and insulting.

The history of the word like it being used to describe women, poor people, and old people, the entire time the word has been used it's been a slur about people society views as outcasts or not as good. The gay community should be happy that the word isn't being used in homophobic context and not be so butt hurt (sorry I had to use that pun).

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 08:00 PM
Slow your roll dawg...your posts are well written and your logic is sound, but you are so self righteous that you are missing the other side of the coin...some people dont have morals, some people have bad morals. Some people hate gays just like some people hate muslims. Is it wrong? sure....but really, who decides what is right and wrong? Apparently you do. Dude slurs are words, and words are sounds that represent ideas. words themselves dont hurt...it is the perception of the person hearing the word that can cause the word to be harmful or not. What i mean is, if you are so bothered by the word f aggot, then you should adjust your mental understanding of society to realize that, whether you like it or not, it IS a word in common usage, many people use it to mean different things, and its not up to you to change the world. You can however, change yourself, by realizing that you are only allowing this hateful word to hurt you. Many people have hatred towards gays because they percieve that gays are ruining the moral society they cherish. They use slurs to manifest this hatred. Yes, this is crass and ignorant and hurtful...but you have to understand that pain begets pain...someone who feels hurt and offended by the apparent invasion of gayness that has overtaken our country has every right to express his anger. Kobe should have kept his mouth shut because he was talking to an official and he knows hes a role model...but you cant be so close-minded as to say that anyone who uses this word is committing a hate crime. Aint nothing but a word. By the way...to discuss morality in this day and age is pointless. We live in a country that values many things over morality...lets fix the politics and the education and the social structure before we start worrying about how to talk to each other nicely.I was sort of with you, until you until you made the statement about words not hurting, and that GAY people should change their mentality of the word. That is absolutely, absolutely incorrect. Personally, I hate the word and it makes me cringe, but I hate it more because of the gay people in the world who have to deal with this passive homophobia in society daily.

The gay community are NOT at fault for being offended by a word that has been connected to homophobia since the 13th century. And yes, not just the attitude, but the word itself, is what the issue is here. They are not "choosing" to be offended, it is a word that denigrates their very being as humans, and is a natural reaction to something that dehumanizes them. The word is a hate slur against them and has cultural contexts that make it much more than just a word, and therefore more powerful. You're dismissing the gays' feelings, telling them to basically learn to get over the historical context and deep-seated sting this word has and it's connections to homophobia, and that it's not "up to them" to decide whether the word is offensive or not. This conversation would NOT be going on if this were any other group. Not even c**t is used on the semi-regular basis the f-word is. There is NO OTHER term that has a historical connection to a group of people in usage as much as the f-word. You basically say the f-word is excusable because a lot of people find homosexuality immoral and they are entitled to speak on that.

First things first, there is not one heterosexual walking on Earth who has the right to tell gay people to get over anything. Gay people are beaten and killed for their sexuality to this day, yet only half of the country (US) supports their marriage rights and 40% think they are immoral. Gay people are victims of a society who largely doesn't care about them. The f-word is slurred at gay kids daily in schools. The word in the context many use it, is directly connected to anti-gay stereotypes, that gay men are weak, lesser men and cowards. The second gay people have legal and social equality, they will get over their feelings of scorn and anger. Until then, they have every single right to be angry. Heterosexuals cannot dictate the gay communities' feelings, which is what is happening here. Heterosexuals have used the word against gays and now are trying to pretend it never has been an anti-gay slur. It's all disingenuous.

Secondly, I don't think that everyone who uses the word, is committing a hate crime. With that said, the word itself, in most contexts, is hateful. Intent is one thing, actions are another thing entirely. The actions done by Kobe, and most who use this word, are to slur someone and put them down. So to say that somehow this isn't an offensive word or is "just a word" is clearly not true, because if it were, people wouldn't use it in the way they do. It's a hate slur. Just because it's usage is more widespread doesn't change that fact, which has been universal.

Thirdly, you say that people who are in pain because gay acceptance has increased has the right to use offensive anti-gay slurs, because they are entitled to their views, and anti-gay slurs are what they use to express them. I'm not the one who decides right and wrong. And see, this is the big issue here. This isn't a moral debate. There is this attitude that being anti-gay is as justifiable as being gay. It isn't, and it's not debatable. This is something that, again, would not be said of other groups. No-one would actually say that it's acceptable to be racist or sexist. It's not acceptable nor justifiable. It's wrong, and if people are doing something wrong, then there are consequences for that. We live in a civilized country. Flagrant hate towards a group of people for who they are, or using slurs that an entire group of people find offensive, is uncivilized. And the social structure of society includes the gay community. And includes homophobia. That can't be ignored, and it's the reason why the word is semi-popular. That's another reason why this word is offensive and needs to be fought against.

At the end of the day, there aren't two sides of the coin here. Using anti-gay slurs are wrong, as you have said yourself. Wrong is not right, and wrong must be fought against to make the world a better place.

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 08:04 PM
The history of the word like it being used to describe women, poor people, and old people, the entire time the word has been used it's been a slur about people society views as outcasts or not as good. The gay community should be happy that the word isn't being used in homophobic context and not be so butt hurt (sorry I had to use that pun).

That's sort of the point, even though you aren't quite right, the word has been used against the gay community way before modern society, and since the 13th century. But, in terms of social outcasts and basically people who are wrong/bad/immoral, that's pretty much why the word is so offensive. The word is implying you're bad if you're a f*g. Gay=bad. Bad=F*g. F*g=Gay. Put it together. So no, the gay community is not happy about the word being used whatsoever, it isn't going to be for a rightful reason, and dismissing their feelings is juvenile and disrespectful. What some heterosexuals need to stop doing is telling the gay community how to feel and stop trying to dictate the terms of a word that they themselves have been using and still use to denigrate homosexuals for centuries.

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 08:09 PM
Stop being so sensitive.

Tell that to a 11 year old gay kid who is a Kobe fan.

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 08:10 PM
Everyone saying "stop being sensitive" are simply people without the awareness or empathy to realize not everything revolves around them, and to be able to genuinely decipher why others are so impacted by this word. Basically, it shows a lot of people don't give a ***** about the gay community, and that's exactly why the word is common.

rufo4100
04-16-2011, 08:30 PM
Bryant is a superstar and did it on national TV with the camera on him. that is why he got his fine.

DenButsu
04-16-2011, 08:38 PM
Both of my parents are in their 70s and grew up in the segregated South. My dad's housekeeper as a child had to use the toilet with the seat up, and the gardener had to use a jar rather than a glass to drink water. My mom's housekeeper when she was a kid had to use the back door to enter, even when it was raining and it meant trudging through the mud on rainy days. Mixed marriages were of course simply out of the question, and the words "negro" and "n-----" were just part of the regular social vernacular.

They were both raised to believe that that's just the way the world was, that it was the natural order of things. But they also both went on to having their coming of age during the Civil Rights Movement and coming to realize that their parents, and the generations before them, had been on the wrong side of history.

People who think it's totally fine to say F-----, but not cool to say N-----, have still one foot on the wrong side of history. It won't be too long now until it's crystal clear, and the "hey don't be so sensitive" attitudes being expressed in this thread will look as archaic and pathetically antiquated as images on Madmen of drinking, smoking, and sexual harassment being the workplace norm.

Homophobes, your time has already passed. Better get used to it. The world has already moved on.

netsgiantsyanks
04-16-2011, 08:57 PM
the gay&lesbians group or whatever the **** it is are just taking it too literal. everybody knows when he said ****** he didn't mean it in the literal term. a 100,000 buck fine is just ********.

DenButsu
04-16-2011, 09:09 PM
the gay&lesbians group or whatever the **** it is are just taking it too literal. everybody knows when he said ****** he didn't mean it in the literal term. a 100,000 buck fine is just ********.

So if a white player called a ref a n----- or a sp-- and "didn't mean it in the literal term", it would be okay?

netsgiantsyanks
04-16-2011, 09:11 PM
that'll be a different situation. like i said before, ****** has taken a whole new meaning while ****** and spic are bascially the same meaning as it was when it was first was originated.

DenButsu
04-16-2011, 09:14 PM
that'll be a different situation. like i said before, ****** has taken a whole new meaning while ****** and spic are bascially the same meaning as it was when it was first was originated.

The fact that you think it's different says a lot in itself.

netsgiantsyanks
04-16-2011, 09:18 PM
let me clarify myself: i know ****** means gay, it just has another meaning now. personally, it's just my opinion. :shrug:

DenButsu
04-16-2011, 09:29 PM
And n----- can also mean "bro" or "dude" or whatever when used as a self referential term by black people among black people. But as a white person, I choose not to use it, because it's ****ing offensive and demeaning and beyond the domain of language that's appropriate for me to use. And for the same reason, even though some gay people also use f----- self referentially, and some straight people use it in a way that basically means ***hole with no respect to sexuality, I still choose not to use it because it's ****ing offensive and demeaning and beyond the domain of language that's appropriate for me to use.

And more particularly, any office worker or restaurant worker or department store worker or whatever who was overheard by their boss using language like that to ***** out a co-worker would obviously and rightfully be penalized for such behavior. As happened with Kobe, appropriately, when he did the same.

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 09:38 PM
I'm going to repeat this again and hopefully everyone understands fully:

The ONLY reason why the f-word has become somewhat normalized, but the n-word, s**c, even c**t are still taboo words, is because of HOMOPHOBIA. Homophobia is the ONLY reason this word has become somewhat normalized as a pejorative and "OK" to use. If you know the word to be connected to gay people and you still use it, that is admitting you are using an anti-gay slur.

netsgiantsyanks
04-16-2011, 10:15 PM
And n----- can also mean "bro" or "dude" or whatever when used as a self referential term by black people among black people. But as a white person, I choose not to use it, because it's ****ing offensive and demeaning and beyond the domain of language that's appropriate for me to use. And for the same reason, even though some gay people also use f----- self referentially, and some straight people use it in a way that basically means ***hole with no respect to sexuality, I still choose not to use it because it's ****ing offensive and demeaning and beyond the domain of language that's appropriate for me to use.

And more particularly, any office worker or restaurant worker or department store worker or whatever who was overheard by their boss using language like that to ***** out a co-worker would obviously and rightfully be penalized for such behavior. As happened with Kobe, appropriately, when he did the same.

yeah i admit to saying the word ******, its a habit i guess. :sigh: and i respect your opinion. i guess you set yourself to higher standards than most people who don't give a ****. :shrug:

DenButsu
04-16-2011, 10:34 PM
Society is already well on its way to calibrating to those standards. It's just the direction that history is moving in now. And it really won't be long before even the reluctant and resistant come around to realizing it.

Qwertys
04-16-2011, 10:44 PM
It's a ****ing word, this country is full of oversensitive baby's. If he would have called the ref a cracker or honkie it wouldn't have been an issue but for some reason he says ****** and people are outraged. This country is so pathetic, stop making such a big deal out of nothing and stop being so hypersensitive!

DenButsu
04-16-2011, 10:57 PM
It's a ****ing word, this country is full of oversensitive baby's. If he would have called the ref a cracker or honkie it wouldn't have been an issue but for some reason he says ****** and people are outraged. This country is so pathetic, stop making such a big deal out of nothing and stop being so hypersensitive!

See that thing that went flying over your head? No?

Well, that was the point.

As long as you're suggesting that we stop being so sensitive, I think it would be fair for me to suggest to you to stop being so undereducated. Bigoted language has a real negative impact on real people in the world.

showtym24
04-16-2011, 11:13 PM
Kenyon martin is a bum so he gets no fine? Pretty crazy but true.

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 11:16 PM
It's a ****ing word, this country is full of oversensitive baby's. If he would have called the ref a cracker or honkie it wouldn't have been an issue but for some reason he says ****** and people are outraged. This country is so pathetic, stop making such a big deal out of nothing and stop being so hypersensitive!

So easy to say this when you aren't the target of this speech. So, so easy. And shows just how little awareness and quite frankly, empathy, you really have.

Qwertys
04-16-2011, 11:34 PM
So easy to say this when you aren't the target of this speech. So, so easy. And shows just how little awareness and quite frankly, empathy, you really have.

He said a stupid word, what ever happened to "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me"? He apologized, payed an outrageous fine, what more does the guy need to do? Get over it, it's a stupid word but what's even more stupid is how big of a deal people are making it out to be.

rabueed
04-16-2011, 11:36 PM
OK, I want to ask a couple of questions and the people who are heavily debating this topic can respond to me:

1. I know plenty of homosexuals from friends and relatives, various gender and race. I love all my friends and relatives and have no issue with their homosexuality. I have even set up a few of them on dates and they've been together ever since.

However, I use the word f-g or f-g--t on occasion when I'm angry at someone or I even use it as a jest against friends. However, clearly I'm not homophobic. I have no issue with homosexuality whatsoever. Obviously I'm not using the word as a gay slur in any way. I'm expressing the word as someone would express the word ---hole. I've even used the word in these terms in front of some of my homosexual acquaintances and they haven't had an issue with it.

Explain to me how what I'm doing is being offensive to gay people or in any way homophobic.

2. My other question is more on-topic. I agree to an extent about Kobe's situation. He definitely shouldn't have used the word. However, I don't think he should be fined. You guys keep saying that the reason f-g--t is tossed around so much is because it's socially acceptable and due to homophobia. N-g--r and sp-c aren't socially acceptable because we have come to terms on the meaning of the word.

However, we've seen basketball players use all kinds of slurs in games before. No one has ever been truly fined for it. Why? Why does Kobe now have to be fined for it? I've seen N-g-a used on the court before. No one got fined for it, and supposedly by your argument's standards, that term is less socially acceptable than f-g--t. No fine ever happened. Gay slurs have been repeated multiple times on an NBA court in front of national TV and no one has been fined for it.

Why should Kobe be the one fined for it?

101flyboy
04-16-2011, 11:58 PM
The reason why the f-bomb is less clear in terms of it's meaning is because of homophobia. Homophobia is so ingrained in society that using anti-gay slurs are like second nature. It's not even a slur anymore, it's just common knowledge that gay=bad, bad=f*g, f*g=gay. One doesn't have to be homophobic to be societally brainwashed by homophobia.

101flyboy
04-17-2011, 12:00 AM
He said a stupid word, what ever happened to "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me"? He apologized, payed an outrageous fine, what more does the guy need to do? Get over it, it's a stupid word but what's even more stupid is how big of a deal people are making it out to be.

You don't understand if you aren't gay, and have no awareness of why it's offensive to the gay community. Also, you are right, the word is stupid. Stupid isn't good, so therefore, when someone does stupid, they are expected to correct that mistake. That is what is happening here.

101flyboy
04-17-2011, 12:07 AM
However, we've seen basketball players use all kinds of slurs in games before. No one has ever been truly fined for it. Why? Why does Kobe now have to be fined for it? I've seen N-g-a used on the court before. No one got fined for it, and supposedly by your argument's standards, that term is less socially acceptable than f-g--t. No fine ever happened. Gay slurs have been repeated multiple times on an NBA court in front of national TV and no one has been fined for it.

Why should Kobe be the one fined for it?

Saying the n-word in jest is not the same as using it as an insult.

As for the other incidents involving anti-gay slurs, such as Kenyon and KG, the obvious answer is that Kobe is pretty much the co-face of the NBA. But outside of that stock answer, another factor is, it's 2011, and times have changed within literally a year dramatically. Things that one could get away with in 2009, you can't get away with today, when it comes to being anti-gay or using anti-gay slurs. It's really not about Kobe, his fame+the pressures on David Stern to act fast and sternly in this situation is why the punishment was stiff. That's just the way it is, it's unfair to some extent but it's also business. And also, a message needed to be sent that this speech is unacceptable, so it does all come full circle.

Qwertys
04-17-2011, 12:10 AM
You don't understand if you aren't gay, and have no awareness of why it's offensive to the gay community. Also, you are right, the word is stupid. Stupid isn't good, so therefore, when someone does stupid, they are expected to correct that mistake. That is what is happening here.

So I assume you are gay and that's why you are so offended. If the ref was gay than I could understand why people would be pissed but that wasn't the case. He apologized and paid his fine so just get over it!

rabueed
04-17-2011, 12:23 AM
Saying the n-word in jest is not the same as using it as an insult.

As for the other incidents involving anti-gay slurs, such as Kenyon and KG, the obvious answer is that Kobe is pretty much the co-face of the NBA. But outside of that stock answer, another factor is, it's 2011, and times have changed within literally a year dramatically. Things that one could get away with in 2009, you can't get away with today, when it comes to being anti-gay or using anti-gay slurs. It's really not about Kobe, his fame+the pressures on David Stern to act fast and sternly in this situation is why the punishment was stiff. That's just the way it is, it's unfair to some extent but it's also business. And also, a message needed to be sent that this speech is unacceptable, so it does all come full circle.


I see what you're saying with the rest of your post. Although I don't believe much has changed in the span of a year, I see your point with Kobe being a prominent figure in the NBA and, therefore, the use of the word had more effect than it would have out of a lesser prominent figure. That said, it definitely is unjust.


as for the bold line, I thought you stated that using a slur word in any kind of manner is unacceptable? That's certainly the impression I was gathering from you.

Using the N-word in jest or as an insult should have the same effect on people regardless. But it doesn't. While that may change in the future, we're talking about the present, as you so indicated in the rest of your post. It's the same case with f-g--t. Yes, it's a slur. Yes, it shouldn't be used. But it was, and it was used differently than its original meaning.

You can't stray from your line of reasoning for one word and not the other. Doesn't work that way. Fact of the matter is the word was used, it wasn't used in a way to bash anyone, it shouldn't have been used, but neither should all slurs. Plain and simple.

101flyboy
04-17-2011, 12:37 AM
as for the bold line, I thought you stated that using a slur word in any kind of manner is unacceptable? That's certainly the impression I was gathering from you.

Using the N-word in jest or as an insult should have the same effect on people regardless. But it doesn't. While that may change in the future, we're talking about the present, as you so indicated in the rest of your post. It's the same case with f-g--t. Yes, it's a slur. Yes, it shouldn't be used. But it was, and it was used differently than its original meaning.

You can't stray from your line of reasoning for one word and not the other. Doesn't work that way. Fact of the matter is the word was used, it wasn't used in a way to bash anyone, it shouldn't have been used, but neither should all slurs. Plain and simple.I didn't say using the n-word was acceptable, for me, it's an awful word to use. But it's different to say "what's up my ni**a" than to say "****** you n***er". The action, in my eyes is still wrong, but it's not being used as a means to offend a person. In some communities, the n-word has literally been changed to not be used as an insult but instead used positively. In this case, Kobe said "****** you fa**ot", and that clearly is an insult, and thus making the word automatically a slur and offensive. And in general the f-word is used as an insult and negatively, not positively, or in jest. My line of reasoning is consistent, I believe using a word like this is in any case wrong, and using it as a slur in the way Kobe did is meant to do damage, and that is what happened. It did damage and he's owned up to it like an adult.

Also, a lot has changed in a year. Specifically, since the headlines of anti-gay suicides last fall, specifically the Rutgers kid Tyler Clementi. Gay awareness has risen, and it's basically gotten to a point where being anti-gay makes a person a social outcast. So that's another reason why Kobe and the NBA needed to address the situation immediately before it got out of hand.

DenButsu
04-17-2011, 01:22 AM
OK, I want to ask a couple of questions and the people who are heavily debating this topic can respond to me:

1. I know plenty of homosexuals from friends and relatives, various gender and race. I love all my friends and relatives and have no issue with their homosexuality. I have even set up a few of them on dates and they've been together ever since.

However, I use the word f-g or f-g--t on occasion when I'm angry at someone or I even use it as a jest against friends. However, clearly I'm not homophobic. I have no issue with homosexuality whatsoever. Obviously I'm not using the word as a gay slur in any way. I'm expressing the word as someone would express the word ---hole. I've even used the word in these terms in front of some of my homosexual acquaintances and they haven't had an issue with it.

Explain to me how what I'm doing is being offensive to gay people or in any way homophobic.

The buildup to your question itself answers your question. Even if you're not consciously trying to communicate the meaning of "all gay people are ***holes" when you can someone a f----- with the intended nuance of ***hole, the whole underlying assumption is that to be "a f-----" and to be "an ***hole" are equivalent on some level, and that to be "a f-----" is most definitely a negative thing and therefore you can demean someone (even someone not gay) by labeling them as such. And so even if it's not your intent to disparage gay people, in fact you are doing so because you're reinforcing a stereotype of gayness as a negative thing by reinforcing that to be "a f-----" is a negative thing.



2. Why should Kobe be the one fined for it?

I don't think Kobe should be singled out. I think the same standard should be applied universally to all players. And I hope from now on it will be.



Kenyon martin is a bum so he gets no fine? Pretty crazy but true.

He should have been fined - both times - and I say this as a Nuggets fan.

It's unacceptable, and unprofessional.

rabueed
04-17-2011, 01:35 AM
The buildup to your question itself answers your question. Even if you're not consciously trying to communicate the meaning of "all gay people are ***holes" when you can someone a f----- with the intended nuance of ***hole, the whole underlying assumption is that to be "a f-----" and to be "an ***hole" are equivalent on some level, and that to be "a f-----" is most definitely a negative thing and therefore you can demean someone (even someone not gay) by labeling them as such. And so even if it's not your intent to disparage gay people, in fact you are doing so because you're reinforcing a stereotype of gayness as a negative thing by reinforcing that to be "a f-----" is a negative thing.




I don't think Kobe should be singled out. I think the same standard should be applied universally to all players. And I hope from now on it will be.




He should have been fined - both times - and I say this as a Nuggets fan.

It's unacceptable, and unprofessional.


I see your point. I really do and I agree with it to an extent. It's a harsh word and I don't approve of Kobe's use of it. But like I said, I've used the word in front of homosexuals and they don't have an issue with it because they know no offense is intended toward them. Maybe the word has changed meaning? Maybe it no longer is intended as a slur to gay people?

I get your point, though. You're saying that the fact that f-g--t is used as an insult instead of a gay slur is still wrong because the word f-g--t derived from a gay slur. Therefore, gay slur = insulting slur, and gay = insulting.

DenButsu
04-17-2011, 01:42 AM
Yep, you are reading me loud and clear. :nod:

SteveNash
04-17-2011, 01:49 AM
Kobe simply should not have been fined a $100,000 unless the NBA established clear rules. NBA has shown little care for how players actually behave but care more about the perception. You can hear players using vulgar language all the time that goes unpunished. Suspend him for 10 games, 50 games, fine him 1/2 his salary, but only due so once you've defined clear rules instead of caving to media pressure.

As for the word itself, while it certainly can be used in a hateful way, though I think most uses of the word are just a way to question someones masculinity. And if homosexuals still have a problem with it, they need to open their eyes and realize their way of living will never be viewed a normal healthy relationship.

DenButsu
04-17-2011, 01:55 AM
And if homosexuals still have a problem with it, they need to open their eyes and realize their way of living will never be viewed a normal healthy relationship...

...by ignorant, uneducated morons who mistakenly think they have some claim to moral superiority that allows them to dehumanize those whose lifestyles they disagree with.

SteveNash
04-17-2011, 01:58 AM
...by ignorant, uneducated morons who mistakenly think they have some claim to moral superiority that allows them to dehumanize those whose lifestyles they disagree with.

Ignorant, uneducated morons?

Humans weren't designed that way, period. How far do you want to take it? Bestiality? Incest? Are those okay?

DenButsu
04-17-2011, 01:59 AM
Humans weren't designed that way, period. How far do you want to take it? Bestiality? Incest? Are those okay?


Ignorant, uneducated morons?

.

SteveNash
04-17-2011, 02:02 AM
.

So you're claiming yourself to be the moral authority who determines what's right and what's wrong now?

What separates homosexuality, bestiality, and incest in your eyes?

DenButsu
04-17-2011, 03:11 AM
What separates homosexuality, bestiality, and incest in your eyes?

Are you ****ing serious? I hope you're joking, because if you don't understand the answer to that question without me explaining it to you, that's just plain sad.

101flyboy
04-17-2011, 09:27 AM
Just because someone doesn't speak up doesn't mean they aren't offended. Most gay people have learned to handle the word being used, but it still hurts them deeply. But because they realize society is basically homophobic, they have to compensate for it. They shouldn't have to be put in that position, which is the issue.

BTW, Mr. Nash, an overwhelming majority of people between teen years and 32 are not anti-gay, so that whole "homosexuality will never be OK so it will always be used as a slur" doesn't fly, especially since more people are realizing why the word isn't OK and controlling their usage of it. And as for separations between homosexuality and actually sexually perverse actions, it's called inherent positive and negative impact. Unless you can show how homosexuality in itself is an inherent negative, you have no argument.

Steelers23_06
04-17-2011, 11:23 AM
This.

Its just that the gay&lesbians tend to take every single remark up the anus. They ask for an apology every-time you say ANYTHING negative about gay people.

haha like the pun...made me laugh

netsgiantsyanks
04-17-2011, 11:25 AM
me, im not homophobic. i personally don't care, i just care about personality and standards. the type of people(let alone homosexuals) i don't like are the snobbish ones who think they're above everyone for some reason.

netsgiantsyanks
04-17-2011, 11:28 AM
haha like the pun...made me laugh

i caught the pun too, made me laugh too. :laugh2:

SteveNash
04-17-2011, 11:29 AM
Are you ****ing serious? I hope you're joking, because if you don't understand the answer to that question without me explaining it to you, that's just plain sad.

Let's see what arguments I think you could come up with since you're unwilling to make your point.

-It's not the same because your moral compass is the way things should be.

-Gays are more accepted on TV and the like so everything is fine now.

-It's bestiality/incest is wrong because it's unnatural, yet I don't see how homosexuality is any more natural.

What else?


BTW, Mr. Nash, an overwhelming majority of people between teen years and 32 are not anti-gay, so that whole "homosexuality will never be OK so it will always be used as a slur" doesn't fly, especially since more people are realizing why the word isn't OK and controlling their usage of it. And as for separations between homosexuality and actually sexually perverse actions, it's called inherent positive and negative impact. Unless you can show how homosexuality in itself is an inherent negative, you have no argument.

The real quote is:

"And if homosexuals still have a problem with it, they need to open their eyes and realize their way of living will never be viewed a normal healthy relationship."

And would you be bent out of shape if I said the same thing about polygamy?

mamba24
04-17-2011, 11:50 AM
The fact it is used by some on a daily occurrence is NOT acceptable whatsoever and highlights a major mentality issue. Murder happens every day too, it's not OK.

The word is anti-gay. This isn't a TV show. This is real life. The gay community finds it offensive, because of the historical context of the word. The reason the word is popular is because of homophobia. It's wrong. Telling them to chill is dismissing their feelings and insulting.

chill out lol... i think its a ridiculous fine. people are allowed to call each other by racial slurs in the nba, they can cuss each other out, talk about each others families, and even personal lives... but apparently ****** is off limits... hmmm... it think homosexuals can choose whatever lifestyle they want. there are many good homosexual people in our communities, but they act like they just get picked on... like they never say anything negative about the non-gay community... i think every prominent gay person should now be fined for saying anything bad about heterosexual people.

mamba24
04-17-2011, 11:57 AM
So easy to say this when you aren't the target of this speech. So, so easy. And shows just how little awareness and quite frankly, empathy, you really have.

i dont know if you are white or not... i am... but for the sake of this post lets say you are... if someone called you a cracker, would you be so offended you would demand a public apology and a fine to be handed out to the person who said it????????

coolio136
04-17-2011, 12:16 PM
People need to chill at watch that South Park episode. The term: F*gg*t has completely changed... its a term that is used everyday, not because of discriminating against gays.

It is clearly meant to discriminate against Harley Davidson owners.

GiantBlueBalls
04-17-2011, 01:05 PM
We can judge what will happen to the word "fa**ot" by looking at the progression of the word "Ni**er" Notice I did not say "N-word". Personally I believe that saying N-word is much worse than just saying Ni**er, because you are giving the word power by choosing to use a replacement word because you are too terrified to utter those two syllables.

Look what Dave Chappelle did on his show, which in my opinion was one of the most socially progressive artistic expressions of the last decade.

By using "Ni**er" repeatedly and humorously, in many different contexts, he actually removed some of the stigma associated with it. Now the word doesnt sting as much, because when people hear it, they might think of skits like "the Ni**er Family" or "the Blind White Supremacist"...instead of thinking about how the word was used in the past. The funny thing is, people hated this at first, but it was WHITE people that got offended. Blacks understood what he was doing, and eventually, everyone caught on. Props to Dave for having the courage and foresight to affect society because thats exactly what he did.

We as Americans have a horrible, shameful history to go along with our acheivements. Our country was built with the blood of the black man, over the bones of the red man...all while the white man watched and took all the credit. Words like Ni**er came out of this dark era, but we as a culture realized how wrong we were, and over time the meaning has changed. Why? Because WE changed it! As culture progressed, so did the word's meaning. Words dont go away, once they are invented (?)...There are words that have fallen out of common usage but once a word is there, its there for good. The only thng we can do is adjust what that word means so it represents how we feel when we use it.

THis same this IS happening with the word Fa**ot. Just like Ni**er, it has evolved to mean something different from its origin. Now, some people still use the word in the old, hateful way...just like some people still use Ni**er in the old way. But the fact that most people who use fa**ot are using it in jest is proof that we as a culture are rejecting the old ways and creating our own meaning for a word that still stings with hate.

I think we are doing this for the same reason Chappelle said Ni**er so many times...if we can create a different meaning for the word, if we can use it repeatedly and humourously without fear of persecution or 100,000.00 fines.

If we can change our language to best suit our culture, we become unique in our existence. Not held back by the bones of the past, but creating our own future....for EVERYONE, fa**ots included : )

101flyboy
04-17-2011, 01:36 PM
chill out lol... i think its a ridiculous fine. people are allowed to call each other by racial slurs in the nba, they can cuss each other out, talk about each others families, and even personal lives... but apparently ****** is off limits... hmmm... it think homosexuals can choose whatever lifestyle they want. there are many good homosexual people in our communities, but they act like they just get picked on... like they never say anything negative about the non-gay community... i think every prominent gay person should now be fined for saying anything bad about heterosexual people.Being gay is not a lifestyle choice. It is a sexual orientation.

Gay people are picked on. This is why they have to defend and stand up for themselves on a regular basis. Because homophobia is real, and it's a major issue in America, especially passive homophobia, like the usage of the f-bomb.

When you are insulting a person, you obviously are going to think of the worst things of them to say. But when you start bringing anti-gay slurs or racial slurs into the equation, now you are bringing an entire identity into the line of fire. People should never feel victimized or slighted solely for who they are. People do bad things, but those bad things are not acceptable. Smack talk will always happen, but degrading and dehumanizing slurs that disrespect an entire group of people is crossing the line.

Some gays do or feel some resentment towards heterosexuals. And they are entitled to those feelings, because heterosexuals and hetero-normative culture have caused the gay community tremendous pain and hardship throughout history. Those feelings aren't OK whatsoever, because not all heterosexuals are anti-gay, obviously, and no-one should judge an entire group on the actions of some. But those feelings are real and justified for many reasons. Being anti-gay is not justified in any way. And the usage of anti-gay slurs are inherently connected to anti-gay attitudes.

101flyboy
04-17-2011, 01:40 PM
i dont know if you are white or not... i am... but for the sake of this post lets say you are... if someone called you a cracker, would you be so offended you would demand a public apology and a fine to be handed out to the person who said it????????

I'm mixed, so I can speak from both sides of the coin on this. Would I personally be offended in that case? Yes, I'd be offended, but I would brush it off, because cracker does not have the long-term historical hateful context that the f-word does. Cracker is basically a silly taunting word, it's wrong to use, but the power is not nearly the same as the n-word, which is dehumanizing a person through and through.

101flyboy
04-17-2011, 01:46 PM
Giants, I like your way of thinking. But here is the issue. All of this is being done by heterosexuals. And the f-word is still being used negatively pretty much 90% of the time. The word is still used as a means to slur, anti-gay intentions or not. It's still a word that is meant to express negativity. And this is all being done without the gay community even being allowed to give their insight, or be called sensitive. Heterosexuals have and still do call gay people the f-bomb, and now are trying to move the goalposts and basically pretend that they never did that, and that it isn't still done. Gay people are being disregarded and their feelings are not being respected in this situation. For them this is much more than a word, it's an emotional, moral, cultural and societal condemnation of who they are as people, and just telling them to "let the word change and forget everything" isn't really tenable.

coolio136
04-17-2011, 07:44 PM
Let's see what arguments I think you could come up with since you're unwilling to make your point.

-It's not the same because your moral compass is the way things should be.

-Gays are more accepted on TV and the like so everything is fine now.

-It's bestiality/incest is wrong because it's unnatural, yet I don't see how homosexuality is any more natural.

What else?



The real quote is:

"And if homosexuals still have a problem with it, they need to open their eyes and realize their way of living will never be viewed a normal healthy relationship."

And would you be bent out of shape if I said the same thing about polygamy?

I know it sounds wrong to most people, but I have to agree with you. I will never be able to understand how you can have a normal working brain yet still like ****. It's too weird for me to accept.

ElMarroAfamado
04-17-2011, 08:14 PM
Great Article

101flyboy
04-18-2011, 01:40 PM
I know it sounds wrong to most people, but I have to agree with you. I will never be able to understand how you can have a normal working brain yet still like ****. It's too weird for me to accept.

It's not weird, you just have a mentality issue. Which is that you transfix your sexuality and identity on people who don't share your same traits. That's called lacking awareness.

gilly
04-18-2011, 01:49 PM
This damn country is just getting too P.C. It's absurd. Can't say one negative thing now days without upsetting NAMBLA, minorities, fudge pounders, muff divers, crackers, nerds, feminist brats, dumb@sses, non-shaving euros, corrupt politicians, etc.

You mean this world. **** is the same in Britain.

Tony_Starks
04-18-2011, 02:07 PM
We can judge what will happen to the word "fa**ot" by looking at the progression of the word "Ni**er" Notice I did not say "N-word". Personally I believe that saying N-word is much worse than just saying Ni**er, because you are giving the word power by choosing to use a replacement word because you are too terrified to utter those two syllables.

Look what Dave Chappelle did on his show, which in my opinion was one of the most socially progressive artistic expressions of the last decade.

By using "Ni**er" repeatedly and humorously, in many different contexts, he actually removed some of the stigma associated with it. Now the word doesnt sting as much, because when people hear it, they might think of skits like "the Ni**er Family" or "the Blind White Supremacist"...instead of thinking about how the word was used in the past. The funny thing is, people hated this at first, but it was WHITE people that got offended. Blacks understood what he was doing, and eventually, everyone caught on. Props to Dave for having the courage and foresight to affect society because thats exactly what he did.

We as Americans have a horrible, shameful history to go along with our acheivements. Our country was built with the blood of the black man, over the bones of the red man...all while the white man watched and took all the credit. Words like Ni**er came out of this dark era, but we as a culture realized how wrong we were, and over time the meaning has changed. Why? Because WE changed it! As culture progressed, so did the word's meaning. Words dont go away, once they are invented (?)...There are words that have fallen out of common usage but once a word is there, its there for good. The only thng we can do is adjust what that word means so it represents how we feel when we use it.

THis same this IS happening with the word Fa**ot. Just like Ni**er, it has evolved to mean something different from its origin. Now, some people still use the word in the old, hateful way...just like some people still use Ni**er in the old way. But the fact that most people who use fa**ot are using it in jest is proof that we as a culture are rejecting the old ways and creating our own meaning for a word that still stings with hate.

I think we are doing this for the same reason Chappelle said Ni**er so many times...if we can create a different meaning for the word, if we can use it repeatedly and humourously without fear of persecution or 100,000.00 fines.

If we can change our language to best suit our culture, we become unique in our existence. Not held back by the bones of the past, but creating our own future....for EVERYONE, fa**ots included : )



Yes indeed sir, agree 100%. These words only have the power that we give to them. As blacks we took an expression of scorn and flipped it into a term of endearment. Now most from the older generations do not agree with this, but the culture now is different. Also its all about the intent you have behind whatever word you use. " Boy" when said with a certain intent is a hateful word. So now do we outlaw the use of the word boy? Never that!

It sucks that we live in a society today that has completely lost the meaning and value of the word "context." If people actually took the time to look at the entire situation instead of reacting to flashly headlines meant to provoke a response things would be a lot better......

coolio136
04-18-2011, 02:10 PM
It's not weird, you just have a mentality issue. Which is that you transfix your sexuality and identity on people who don't share your same traits. That's called lacking awareness.

Whatever, I stand by my point.