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ManRam
04-12-2011, 10:17 PM
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Welcome to ProSportsDaily.com's Round Table discussion group. This is a continued series here at PSD where we pose a question to our writing staff and they answer. We took a break for a while due to a variety of issues, but are back again with hopes of sparking some more discussion. Expect more frequent installments from here on out.

Early in the season, the NBA Round Table made their pre-season awards predictions. These can be found here (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=545836&highlight=roundtable).

With that said, here is what our panel have voted for the post-season awards and honors. Enjoy, and feel free to share any observations, critiques or comments.



Most Valuable Player
http://i51.tinypic.com/289zw9t.gif
Unanimous Winner
Pre-season pick: Kevin Durant (86%)


He is the leader of the overachieving Chicago Bulls and has his team #1 in the East when the masses believed they would be a #4 or #5 seed. Despite his team having to do with the majority of his teams success, he has brought it night in and night out and has solidified himself in comparisons with Chris Paul and Deron Williams.
-Avenged24


Rookie of the Year
http://i52.tinypic.com/hx5jbm.gif
Unanimous Winner
Pre-Season Pick: Blake Griffin (50%)


What a season. An All-Star his rookie year coming off such a significant injury? He's insanely talented, and while he has plenty of room to improve, his game is much more well rounded than he's often given credit for. John Wall did not disappoint, but this pick's a runaway
-tredigs

Coach of the Year
http://i56.tinypic.com/n3t3ig.gif
Also receiving votes: Gregg Popovich (1)


Much of what can be said for Rose can be said for Thibs. I knew what they were getting when Thibodeau left the C's to pursuit a head coaching job. He's one of the most well respected guys in basketball, and paid his dues a long time as an assistant to finally get the job he wanted in Chicago. He's a great defensive mind and he turned what appeared to be an injury-riddled Bulls season to the be best record in the East. Boss.
-Corey

Most Improved Player
http://i53.tinypic.com/29w7mh3.gif
Also receiving votes: LaMarcus Aldridge (1), Russell Westbrook (1), Jrue Holliday (1)
Pre-season Pick: Michael Beasley (21%)


There have been some other players that went from obscurity to contributing starters, etc, but no player has done some of the things Love did this year since Moses Malone, and his 20-15-40-80 has never been done. He went from a player off the bench to an all star, and his statistics this year are eye popping.
-Hawkeye15

Defensive Player of the Year
http://i56.tinypic.com/282orrb.gif
Unanimous Winner
Pre-season Pick: Dwight Howard (79%)


Noone impacts the game on the defensive side of the ball more then Howard does. I'll be suprised to see somone else with this award in the next few years.
-macc

6th Man of the Year
http://i51.tinypic.com/hs9bft.gif
Unanimous Winner
Pre-season Pick: Jamal Crawford


He has been consistent all season long, a flaw that has followed him throughout his career was that he didn't bring it night in and night out. He has sacrificed his minutes, his game, and even money for a chance to play and remain with the Lakers. He is a definite game changer and even a go-to guy from time to time.
-Avenged24


First Team All-NBA
G: Kobe Bryant
G: Derrick Rose
F: LeBron James (Unanimous)
F: Dirk Nowitzki
C: Dwight Howard (Unanimous)

Second Team All-NBA
G: Chris Paul
G: Dwyane Wade
F: Kevin Durant
F: Amare Stoudamire
C: Pau Gasol

Third Team All-NBA
G: Russell Westbrook
G: Manu Ginobili
F: Kevin Love
F:Tim Duncan
C: LaMarcus Aldridge

First Team All-Defense
Dwight Howard (Unanimous)
LeBron James
Kevin Garnett
Rajon Rondo
Andre Iguodala

First Team All-Rookie
John Wall (Unanimous)
Landry Fields (Unanimous)
Blake Griffin (Unanimous)
Greg Monroe (Unanimous)
DeMarcus Cousins


Contributors: ManRamForPrez24, Hawkeye15, Corey, Avenged24, daleja424, tredigs, Rosh, td0tsfinest, macc, Chronz, SteBo, hugepatsfan.

zo#33
04-12-2011, 10:24 PM
Only change I would make is put Wade on the 1st team instead of Rose.

kjoke
04-12-2011, 10:40 PM
I would too, but considering Rose will win MVP, he will go ahead of rose

John Walls Era
04-12-2011, 10:41 PM
These are good. But whens the last time a non-playoff team have someone on the an all nba team? I think Melo should've made it over the MIP (Love).

chitown815
04-12-2011, 10:41 PM
Only change I would make is put Wade on the 1st team instead of Rose.

And that's why you have no say

zo#33
04-12-2011, 10:51 PM
These are good. But whens the last time a non-playoff team have someone on the an all nba team? I think Melo should've made it over the MIP (Love).

I would take Randolph over Melo

chitown815
04-12-2011, 10:58 PM
and why should 2 guys from the 2nd place team be on the first team, and leave the MVP, who led his team to the 1 seed off, I mean you already proved you are braindead

D Roses Bulls
04-12-2011, 11:10 PM
Despite his team having to do with the majority of his teams success

oh lord its the truehoops network guys all over again and love doesn't belong on any all nba team

IamKaiserSoze
04-12-2011, 11:16 PM
the choices are pretty much what we all thought they would be. i approve.

Sixerlover
04-12-2011, 11:19 PM
And that's why you have no say

:laugh2:

Gators123
04-12-2011, 11:23 PM
Great job, fellas.

DROSE4MVP
04-12-2011, 11:26 PM
Haha, chitown815 is just asking to get banned.

Oh, and good work on these guys. Seems like a very good list.

Crackadalic
04-12-2011, 11:34 PM
Good stuff. Dont know about Kevin Love being on a all nba team but ill let it slide

Baller1
04-12-2011, 11:37 PM
I see absolutely no reason for Dirk over Durant, especially considering the Thunder might finish as a higher seed...

Other than that, great work guys.

theheatles
04-12-2011, 11:43 PM
where's 2nd team all defense?

still1ballin
04-12-2011, 11:45 PM
Only change I would make is put Wade on the 1st team instead of Rose.

How can the winner of the MVP be all NBA 2nd team?

zo#33
04-12-2011, 11:50 PM
How can the winner of the MVP be all NBA 2nd team?

I dont use the same criteria for all nba and mvp. Wade is having a better season individually while Rose is having more team success. Just my opinion. Not taking anything away from Rose's great season

D Roses Bulls
04-13-2011, 12:26 AM
I see absolutely no reason for Dirk over Durant, especially considering the Thunder might finish as a higher seed...

Other than that, great work guys.

actually tnt discussed this and I agree with it. durrant had a robin in westbrook, dirk did a lot of this on his own with no major second option. espn also put dirk over durrant

bmd1101
04-13-2011, 12:37 AM
and why should 2 guys from the 2nd place team be on the first team, and leave the MVP, who led his team to the 1 seed off, I mean you already proved you are braindead

Just because your the MVP or on the #1 team doesnt mean your the best.

210Don
04-13-2011, 12:41 AM
smh @ wade over mvp lol

Briggurlacher
04-13-2011, 12:42 AM
Just because your the MVP or on the #1 team doesnt mean your the best.

There is absolutely NO WAY Rose won't make 1st team All-NBA.

Hate all you want, but he'll be on the 1st team.

ellesmeire
04-13-2011, 12:43 AM
very nice

HuRRiCaNeS324
04-13-2011, 12:47 AM
Wade and Rose should be in the #1 team

Anyways, i doubt the Lakers make it to the Finals. If they do ill never doubt a champion again. They just look so disinterested in a game that matters.

tredigs
04-13-2011, 01:20 AM
I actually did have Wade on the first team rather than Rose, but I deliberated quite a bit after how strong Rose has closed out the season. My rationale being that I think ALL League team's are much more about the individual, and not as much about your teams success (though if your team is flat out bad, that is on you as well and weighs you down).
My question was simply "who are the two best guards in the league, who are the two best forwards in the league, and who is the best center in the league?". I think the two best guards are Kobe and Wade (Rose really was RIGHT there this year), the two best forwards were Durant and Lebron (Dirk being a pick I wavered on instead of Durant, but ultimately I feel KD's the better two way player), and Dwight being the obvious choice on center.

Rose being my MVP (as the criteria is different, and much more about your team success), but still not a top two guard or a top five player this year imo.

Also, I agree that Love doesn't quite make 3rd team. The combination of not being a relevant two-way player and having such poor success as a team is a little too much for me to choose him despite his historic rebounding and overall very solid offensive year.

daleja424
04-13-2011, 09:14 AM
Agreed tredigs,

All NBA team is about the individual and MVP is about the team. Wade and Rose are comparable offensively, but wade is a better all around player than Rose.

Rose deserves the MVP, but Wade deserves a spot on the all-NBA team.

DITKA4GOV
04-13-2011, 12:18 PM
Agreed tredigs,

All NBA team is about the individual and MVP is about the team. Wade and Rose are comparable offensively, but wade is a better all around player than Rose.

Rose deserves the MVP, but Wade deserves a spot on the all-NBA team.

Are wades stats that much better to move him onto 1st team over potential MVP? Looking at the stats, combining just PTs/rbs/assits looks like rose combines for more. Doing this while facing nightly traps and missing his two big men for stretches, still leading his team to top spot doesn't Garner 1st team? While Wade doesn't face as much doubles due to the other two all-stars on his team and still has comparable stats? Im just curios in the reasoning?

ManRam
04-13-2011, 12:32 PM
Rose got 9 out of 12 of the votes for first team. One of the people who didn't pick Rose on the first team was a Bulls fan.

We actually had dialog amongst us about whether or not the MVP had to be on first team. A few felt that it was a must, and obviously a few didn't. Rosh, the Bulls fan representing the RT, did put Rose on the second team. His reasoning was that the All-NBA teams are based on skill and basically just how good someone is. It really isn't hard for a lot of people to think that Wade and Kobe are better than Rose. I ended up putting Rose on my First Team, but it was close. I do think Wade and Kobe are still better, but I think Rose did have a good enough year to get the honor.

That was one of the more interesting votes. I was surprised at how few votes Melo got. I didn't vote for him, but I figured more would.

daleja424
04-13-2011, 12:41 PM
Are wades stats that much better to move him onto 1st team over potential MVP? Looking at the stats, combining just PTs/rbs/assits looks like rose combines for more. Doing this while facing nightly traps and missing his two big men for stretches, still leading his team to top spot doesn't Garner 1st team? While Wade doesn't face as much doubles due to the other two all-stars on his team and still has comparable stats? Im just curios in the reasoning?

While that is true... why on earth would I only look at those categories?

Why ignore that Wade is extremely more efficient as a scorer? Why ignore that wade is a prolific shot blocker? Why ignore that Wade is a better defender? Why ignore that nearly all of the advanced stats favor Wade as well?

...finally, the last part of your argument is just SILLY. Wade, being the only superstar on his team for the last several years, has posted far better seasons than he is having this year. I keep hearing this argument that Lebron and Wade have it easy this year... but how does that make any sense at all considering that they have both had better individual seasons than this year in the past...

If anything, having each other as teammates has decreased the room they have to operate in the paint since teams have been packing it in.

NBA-GMaster
04-13-2011, 12:47 PM
I all agreed in MVP, MIP, DPOY, COY, 6MOY, defensive team and rookie team..

I think Wade deserves to be in 1st team than kobe..
Where's Melo and Rondo??

My all-nba team:
1st team: Rose,Wade,James,Nowitzki&Howard
2nd team: Paul,Bryant,Durant,Anthony&Stoudemire
3rd team: Rondo,Westbrook,Ginobili,Gasol& Duncan/Aldridge

daleja424
04-13-2011, 12:50 PM
That was my solution as well NBA-GMaster... I just voted wade and rose on to the first team...

but I can definitely see the argument for Kobe-Wade as well...

Statistically Wade has probably been the best guard in the league this year though, so he deserves a spot IMO

goblazers7
04-13-2011, 12:50 PM
Only change I would make is put Wade on the 1st team instead of Rose.

LOL the MVP on the second team. Typical heat fan right here.

ManRam
04-13-2011, 12:53 PM
I all agreed in MVP, MIP, DPOY, COY, 6MOY, defensive team and rookie team..

I think Wade deserves to be in 1st team than kobe..
Where's Melo and Rondo??

My all-nba team:
1st team: Rose,Wade,James,Nowitzki&Howard
2nd team: Rondo,Bryant,Durant,Anthony&Stoudemire
3rd team: Paul,Westbrook,Ginobili,Gasol&Duncan

I think it's almost impossible to justify having Rondo ahead of Paul. Paul is literally dragging a team into the playoffs right now basically on his lonesome. His numbers are way better too :shrug:

Rondo didn't recieve a single vote for any of the All-NBA teams...and I think that's 100% right.

Your third team also has three guards, which doesn't work.

ManRam
04-13-2011, 12:58 PM
LOL the MVP on the second team. Typical heat fan right here.

Well, again, the three votes that had Rose on the second team came from a Bulls fan, a Clippers fan and a GS fan. Both Heat fans voted Rose on to Team 1.

So that's not really a great statement you're making. Obviously, there's more to it than Miami fans. Again, it's not crazy to consider Wade and Kobe better players and more skilled players than Rose...

NYSwagga
04-13-2011, 12:58 PM
wow.didn't no psd was full of Melo haters,or just heat and bulls fans.whether you guys like it or not,Melo will be on the all NBA second team,u can bet on that.I'd take Durant for first team over dirk

Bravo95
04-13-2011, 01:03 PM
Durant on All-NBA 1st team over Dirk and I might give COY to Pop also.

ManRam
04-13-2011, 01:03 PM
wow.didn't no psd was full of Melo haters,or just heat and bulls fans.whether you guys like it or not,Melo will be on the all NBA second team,u can bet on that.I'd take Durant for first team over dirk

He's not making second team, I assure you that. Third team is definitely a possibiliyu, but it's not just PSD that thinks this either, and it's not just being hateful.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/27304/the-truehoop-networks-award-picks

It's not difficult to make an argument that LeBron, Durant, Dirk, Gasol, Amare, Aldridge and even Randolph or Love are having better years at the forward position.

SteBO
04-13-2011, 01:09 PM
wow.didn't no psd was full of Melo haters,or just heat and bulls fans.whether you guys like it or not,Melo will be on the all NBA second team,u can bet on that.I'd take Durant for first team over dirk
I had Melo in my All-NBA third team. Durant seems more worthy of second team to me. Mine....

1st Team

Rose
Wade
James
Nowitzki
Howard

2nd Team

Paul
Kobe
Durant
Amare
Gasol

3rd Team

Westbrook
Ginobli
Anthony
Love
Duncan

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 01:09 PM
if you don't agree with the selections, try making an argument instead of calling the voters "haters" or using a generalized statement. The voters were made up of many of the most respected posters in the NBA forums. The same posters who don't act like children here.

I really don't understand how some here take it as a personal insult if someone doesn't agree with them, and gives well thought out responses.

NBA-GMaster
04-13-2011, 01:09 PM
I think it's almost impossible to justify having Rondo ahead of Paul. Paul is literally dragging a team into the playoffs right now basically on his lonesome. His numbers are way better too :shrug:

Rondo didn't recieve a single vote for any of the All-NBA teams...and I think that's 100% right.

Your third team also has three guards, which doesn't work.

"rondo ahead of paul".. oops sorry, i meant to put paul in 2nd team and rondo in 3rd team.. let me change it.. :D

NYSwagga
04-13-2011, 01:17 PM
if you don't agree with the selections, try making an argument instead of calling the voters "haters" or using a generalized statement. The voters were made up of many of the most respected posters in the NBA forums. The same posters who don't act like children here.

I really don't understand how some here take it as a personal insult if someone doesn't agree with them, and gives well thought out responses.

I realize that but I just don't see how he was missed. Durant will be first team over dirk,and half the time the espn people are wrong just like the cavs lakers finals last year right?team record has to be thrown in somewhere here

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 01:22 PM
I realize that but I just don't see how he was missed. Durant will be first team over dirk,and half the time the espn people are wrong just like the cavs lakers finals last year right?team record has to be thrown in somewhere here

An argument can be made for Melo making it. But starting your post with, "Must be a bunch of Melo haters", kind of refutes any point you then attempt to make.

Make a case. A real one. Melo is a talent, but he was responsible for a media frenzy for half the season, and hasn't played as well this year as in years past, and the Knicks were 3 games above .500 when he showed up, and have played .500 ball since. Its just not the year for him quite frankly.

k24magic
04-13-2011, 01:22 PM
Yeah I pretty much agree with everything great work guys.

mikealike305
04-13-2011, 01:23 PM
dont like that wade is on the 2nd team. i can see wade and rose or wade and kobe but no wade at all? crazy imo.

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 01:23 PM
"rondo ahead of paul".. oops sorry, i meant to put paul in 2nd team and rondo in 3rd team.. let me change it.. :D

should Rondo make the 3rd team even? He was pretty bad over the last half of the season after coming out of the gate blazing assist wise. I think the top few PG's put some distance between themselves and Rondo as the year wore on.

Double_R
04-13-2011, 01:28 PM
1st real team

Wade
Kobe
Lebron
Dirk
Howard

regardless of team record, the top guys at each position
CP3
Wade
Lebron
Love
Howard

Chronz
04-13-2011, 01:31 PM
Only change I would make is put Wade on the 1st team instead of Rose.

Agreed

Baller1
04-13-2011, 01:32 PM
MVP: Dwight Howard
DPOY: Dwight Howard
Sixth Man: Lamar Odom
MIP: Kevin Love
COY: Thibs/Karl (Tough One)
ROY: Blake Griffin

1st Team:
Dwyane Wade
Derrick Rose
Kevin Durant
Lebron James
Dwight Howard

2nd Team:
Chris Paul
Kobe Bryant
Dirk Nowitzki
Amare Stoudamire
Lamarcus Aldridge

3rd Team:
Russell Westbrook
Deron Williams
Tim Duncan
Kevin Love
Pau Gasol

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 01:33 PM
I would guess at least half of those who picked Rose to the 1st team did so because he is the assumed MVP. I even put Rose on the first team, with a sidenote saying I would have Wade replace him if Rose doesn't win the MVP award. And even though its been done before, its tough to leave the MVP off the 1st team.

NYSwagga
04-13-2011, 01:35 PM
An argument can be made for Melo making it. But starting your post with, "Must be a bunch of Melo haters", kind of refutes any point you then attempt to make.

Make a case. A real one. Melo is a talent, but he was responsible for a media frenzy for half the season, and hasn't played as well this year as in years past, and the Knicks were 3 games above .500 when he showed up, and have played .500 ball since. Its just not the year for him quite frankly.

the knicks were 2games above before melo.its not easy playing through a death in the family or droppin 50 on the rockets with the media buzzing,Melo may not be scoring as much as last year,but he has remained consistent throughout the year unlike dirk.

Avenged
04-13-2011, 01:36 PM
I think these "awards" are pretty accurate. Of course not everyone will agree on everything, but for the most part it is good. I like that Manu Ginobili made the 3rd team, 2 Spurs players are deserving for a All NBA team.

mikealike305
04-13-2011, 01:36 PM
I would guess at least half of those who picked Rose to the 1st team did so because he is the assumed MVP. I even put Rose on the first team, with a sidenote saying I would have Wade replace him if Rose doesn't win the MVP award. And even though its been done before, its tough to leave the MVP off the 1st team.

what does that say bout Roses MVP campain?



im just saying.....

DITKA4GOV
04-13-2011, 01:36 PM
While that is true... why on earth would I only look at those categories?

Why ignore that Wade is extremely more efficient as a scorer? Why ignore that wade is a prolific shot blocker? Why ignore that Wade is a better defender? Why ignore that nearly all of the advanced stats favor Wade as well?

...finally, the last part of your argument is just SILLY. Wade, being the only superstar on his team for the last several years, has posted far better seasons than he is having this year. I keep hearing this argument that Lebron and Wade have it easy this year... but how does that make any sense at all considering that they have both had better individual seasons than this year in the past...

If anything, having each other as teammates has decreased the room they have to operate in the paint since teams have been packing it in.

When I looked at the stats I see rose at. 6 blocks a game which is at the top for point guards I believe, and Wade at 1.1. Steals rose at 1.1 compared to wades 1.5. Hardly anything prolific here. Wade is more efficient as a scorer is understandable, he has more help offensively than rose has, thus rose has to force things a little more. Wade has the higher fg%, but lacks in ft% and 3pt% compared to rose. I can see the arguement both ways, but I don't believe it to be clear cut.

The arguement that its harder for Wade because of his all star teammates is staggering tho. Defenses focus on slowing down rose via traps and doubles, to assist in forcing the ball out of his hands. Teams can do this much easier on rose than say Wade, because the bulls don't have a lebron caliber player on the other side. So having defenses do this is easier on rose than Wade having to deal with a crowded lane? Maybe its me, but I don't understand that arguement one bit.

Avenged
04-13-2011, 01:38 PM
I would guess at least half of those who picked Rose to the 1st team did so because he is the assumed MVP. I even put Rose on the first team, with a sidenote saying I would have Wade replace him if Rose doesn't win the MVP award. And even though its been done before, its tough to leave the MVP off the 1st team.

Yeah, same here. Wade and Kobe are clearly better players than Rose so they deserve 1st team.. But I chose Rose only because he is most likely going to be the MVP. If he doesn't get MVP, how can anyone possibly put him in the 1st team? Team success isn't much of a factor here.

Slimsim
04-13-2011, 01:43 PM
Rose should be MVP and MIP

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 01:44 PM
what does that say bout Roses MVP campain?



im just saying.....

Its more indictive of the MVP race this year period. Its a race that holds no clear cut candidates. So whomever won it would be facing pushback amongst fans, it has nothing to do with Rose.

zo#33
04-13-2011, 01:44 PM
When I looked at the stats I see rose at. 6 blocks a game which is at the top for point guards I believe, and Wade at 1.1. Steals rose at 1.1 compared to wades 1.5. Hardly anything prolific here. Wade is more efficient as a scorer is understandable, he has more help offensively than rose has, thus rose has to force things a little more. Wade has the higher fg%, but lacks in ft% and 3pt% compared to rose. I can see the arguement both ways, but I don't believe it to be clear cut.

The arguement that its harder for Wade because of his all star teammates is staggering tho. Defenses focus on slowing down rose via traps and doubles, to assist in forcing the ball out of his hands. Teams can do this much easier on rose than say Wade, because the bulls don't have a lebron caliber player on the other side. So having defenses do this is easier on rose than Wade having to deal with a crowded lane? Maybe its me, but I don't understand that arguement one bit.

I dont believe in what you say in the second paragraph because Wade is putting up the same numbers as last year when he had no help at all.

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 01:45 PM
When I looked at the stats I see rose at. 6 blocks a game which is at the top for point guards I believe, and Wade at 1.1. Steals rose at 1.1 compared to wades 1.5. Hardly anything prolific here. Wade is more efficient as a scorer is understandable, he has more help offensively than rose has, thus rose has to force things a little more. Wade has the higher fg%, but lacks in ft% and 3pt% compared to rose. I can see the arguement both ways, but I don't believe it to be clear cut.

The arguement that its harder for Wade because of his all star teammates is staggering tho. Defenses focus on slowing down rose via traps and doubles, to assist in forcing the ball out of his hands. Teams can do this much easier on rose than say Wade, because the bulls don't have a lebron caliber player on the other side. So having defenses do this is easier on rose than Wade having to deal with a crowded lane? Maybe its me, but I don't understand that arguement one bit.


Wade is a more efficient offensive player, and a better defender than Rose. This is why he is better still.

Baller1
04-13-2011, 01:45 PM
When I looked at the stats I see rose at. 6 blocks a game which is at the top for point guards I believe, and Wade at 1.1. Steals rose at 1.1 compared to wades 1.5. Hardly anything prolific here. Wade is more efficient as a scorer is understandable, he has more help offensively than rose has, thus rose has to force things a little more. Wade has the higher fg%, but lacks in ft% and 3pt% compared to rose. I can see the arguement both ways, but I don't believe it to be clear cut.

The arguement that its harder for Wade because of his all star teammates is staggering tho. Defenses focus on slowing down rose via traps and doubles, to assist in forcing the ball out of his hands. Teams can do this much easier on rose than say Wade, because the bulls don't have a lebron caliber player on the other side. So having defenses do this is easier on rose than Wade having to deal with a crowded lane? Maybe its me, but I don't understand that arguement one bit.

Wade was incredible without Lebron, and he's incredible with him. I don't this his new team changes anything in regards to the player he was/is.

Baller1
04-13-2011, 01:48 PM
In all honesty, I think Westbrook deserves more credit in the MIP race. But Love pretty much destroyed any other possible contender for the award, so by no means do I disagree with the pick; just think Westbrook got a bit overlooked...

Sometimes it sucks having two incredible players on one team, canceling each other out all the time. ;)

mikealike305
04-13-2011, 01:51 PM
Its more indictive of the MVP race this year period. Its a race that holds no clear cut candidates. So whomever won it would be facing pushback amongst fans, it has nothing to do with Rose.

i just think it says something that Rose gets 1st team mostly cuz he is the assumed MVP. if dwight wins MVP or not, he gets 1st team. same goes for Lebron and Kobe.....


i just think Wade is going to get cheated just because ppl dont like the idea of the MVP not being on the 1st team, which to me isnt right.

ManRam
04-13-2011, 01:51 PM
Rose should be MVP and MIP

Kevin Love:

+6.2 points, +4.2 rebounds, +0.20 FG%, +3.6 PER, +6.6 WS

Derrick Rose:

+4.3 points, +1.8 assists, -0.43FG%, +5.0 PER, +7.0 WS

Pretty close, but I like Love more. He basically went from bench player to all-star. I think he got better all across the board more significantly.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-13-2011, 01:53 PM
MVP: Dwight Howard
DPOY: Dwight Howard
Sixth Man: Lamar Odom
MIP: Kevin Love
COY: Thibs/Karl (Tough One)
ROY: Blake Griffin

1st Team:
Dwyane Wade
Derrick Rose
Kevin Durant
Lebron James
Dwight Howard

2nd Team:
Chris Paul
Kobe Bryant
Dirk Nowitzki
Amare Stoudamire
Lamarcus Aldridge

3rd Team:
Russell Westbrook
Deron Williams
Tim Duncan
Kevin Love
Pau Gasol

I agree.

I'm kind of disappointed that PSD's Roundtable which is composed of well respected posters had to conform to the masses on the MVP. I know Hawkeye, Chronz, tredigs, etc. are all well aware of the reasons Howard should be MVP over Rose. But we all know Rose will win it quite easily. But as far as the other awards go, I have no problems (well like others have said, I'd go Wade over Rose with the 1st team).

Baller1
04-13-2011, 01:56 PM
I agree.

I'm kind of disappointed that PSD's Roundtable which is composed of well respected posters had to conform to the masses on the MVP. I know Hawkeye, Chronz, tredigs, etc. are all well aware of the reasons Howard should be MVP over Rose. But we all know Rose will win it quite easily. But as far as the other awards go, I have no problems (well like others have said, I'd go Wade over Rose with the 1st team).

I gave up even trying to argue against Rose for Dwight; it's a lost cause.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-13-2011, 01:58 PM
I gave up even trying to argue against Rose for Dwight; it's a lost cause.

I know. And I suspect we'll have some Bulls fans calling us out for it.

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 02:00 PM
I agree.

I'm kind of disappointed that PSD's Roundtable which is composed of well respected posters had to conform to the masses on the MVP. I know Hawkeye, Chronz, tredigs, etc. are all well aware of the reasons Howard should be MVP over Rose. But we all know Rose will win it quite easily. But as far as the other awards go, I have no problems (well like others have said, I'd go Wade over Rose with the 1st team).

you also have to be realistic. While Howard is better this year no doubt, and probably THE most important player to his team, his team has the 8th best record in the league, and the realistic chances of him winning it are minimal. I think its just been accepted by everyone, even the most rational fans, that at this point, its Rose. And many/most were sure to put a comment or sentence in there stating while we may not necessarily agree with the selection, there is no stopping it at this point. I didn't want to put a wish list, I wanted to try and be as realistically accurate as I could.

DITKA4GOV
04-13-2011, 02:01 PM
I dont believe in what you say in the second paragraph because Wade is putting up the same numbers as last year when he had no help at all.

I do believe it has and effect but personal opinion. So first you stated it was harder because of the crowd in the lane. Now it has no effect. No rebuttal to fact the stats in blocks and steals don't prove wade to be killing rose in that category. I don't have the stats but is Wade More efficient this year or last? Just curious. To me Wade Rose and Kobe are almost interchangeable when it comes to all NBA. No clear cut favorite. MVP in my opinion there is much less debate. When u factor in the missing of big guys and the record and all that.

ManRam
04-13-2011, 02:02 PM
I could argue Dwight deserving it all day, but in the end, the Magic regressed as a team, and the way the award voting goes, that matters. They're gonna finish 10-11 games behind Chicago, and 8 or 9 games behind the 2009-2010 Magic. I do think he is far more valuable to his team, but again, the records really make it hard for him to win. I don't think they regressed at all because of him...but they did regress.

The MVP is a very team-dependent award...and that favors Rose more than Howard this season.

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 02:04 PM
I do believe it has and effect but personal opinion. So first you stated it was harder because of the crowd in the lane. Now it has no effect. No rebuttal to fact the stats in blocks and steals don't prove wade to be killing rose in that category. I don't have the stats but is Wade More efficient this year or last? Just curious. To me Wade Rose and Kobe are almost interchangeable when it comes to all NBA. No clear cut favorite. MVP in my opinion there is much less debate. When u factor in the missing of big guys and the record and all that.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html

While Wade's variables are changed up a bit (he is shooting better, not getting as many assists, usage is slightly down), he is pretty much the same he was last year.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-13-2011, 02:05 PM
you also have to be realistic. While Howard is better this year no doubt, and probably THE most important player to his team, his team has the 8th best record in the league, and the realistic chances of him winning it are minimal. I think its just been accepted by everyone, even the most rational fans, that at this point, its Rose. And many/most were sure to put a comment or sentence in there stating while we may not necessarily agree with the selection, there is no stopping it at this point. I didn't want to put a wish list, I wanted to try and be as realistically accurate as I could.

Ah, ok. If you're trying to be realistic, obviously Rose is the choice. I doubt Howard will even finish close to Rose which is unfortunate.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
04-13-2011, 02:06 PM
All NBA 1st Team:

Rose
Wade
LeBron
Amare
Dwight

2nd team:

Westbrook
Kobe
Melo
Durant
Pau

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 02:08 PM
All NBA 1st Team:

Rose
Wade
LeBron
Amare
Dwight

2nd team:

Westbrook
Kobe
Melo
Durant
Pau

where is Dirk? There is no way, and I mean NONE, that Dirk doesn't make 1st or 2nd team.

mikealike305
04-13-2011, 02:12 PM
hawkeye did u miss my post at the end of page 4?

JordansBulls
04-13-2011, 02:12 PM
I dont use the same criteria for all nba and mvp. Wade is having a better season individually while Rose is having more team success. Just my opinion. Not taking anything away from Rose's great season

Then that means Kobe should be 2nd team this year. He is 2nd on his team in Win Shares and 4th in Win Shares per 48 minutes. Rose is #1 in both on his team.

Baller1
04-13-2011, 02:12 PM
you also have to be realistic. While Howard is better this year no doubt, and probably THE most important player to his team, his team has the 8th best record in the league, and the realistic chances of him winning it are minimal. I think its just been accepted by everyone, even the most rational fans, that at this point, its Rose. And many/most were sure to put a comment or sentence in there stating while we may not necessarily agree with the selection, there is no stopping it at this point. I didn't want to put a wish list, I wanted to try and be as realistically accurate as I could.


I could argue Dwight deserving it all day, but in the end, the Magic regressed as a team, and the way the award voting goes, that matters. They're gonna finish 10-11 games behind Chicago, and 8 or 9 games behind the 2009-2010 Magic. I do think he is far more valuable to his team, but again, the records really make it hard for him to win. I don't think they regressed at all because of him...but they did regress.

The MVP is a very team-dependent award...and that favors Rose more than Howard this season.

I don't doubt that Rose has it locked up and will definitely win it this year, but I refuse to be a supporter of it. I do not dislike the guy as many seem to believe, I just can't see any justifiable case for him being more valuable than Dwight Howard; especially considering the year Dwight had.

JordansBulls
04-13-2011, 02:15 PM
I don't doubt that Rose has it locked up and will definitely win it this year, but I refuse to a supporter of it. I do not dislike the guy as many seem to believe, I just can't see any justifiable case for him being more valuable than Dwight Howard; especially considering the year Dwight had.

Well with Dwight another thing people fail to mention is the technicals he has received. I mean 18 t's and 2 games from suspensions is not being valuable to your team IMO.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-13-2011, 02:16 PM
I could argue Dwight deserving it all day, but in the end, the Magic regressed as a team, and the way the award voting goes, that matters. They're gonna finish 10-11 games behind Chicago, and 8 or 9 games behind the 2009-2010 Magic. I do think he is far more valuable to his team, but again, the records really make it hard for him to win. I don't think they regressed at all because of him...but they did regress.

The MVP is a very team-dependent award...and that favors Rose more than Howard this season.

What I find kind of unfortunate about the voting is that it isn't really the most valuable player rather its the best player on one of the best teams. This immediately takes out teams who aren't at or near the top of their conference (such as Dwight). I don't see why a player has to be on the best team to be the most valuable player.

There may be one case where Rose could argue that he is the most valuable player though and that is if you factor in salary (which value could certainly imply). I suppose if you look at it this way, there really isn't an objection to him being MVP. I'm not sure if anyone has done any analysis using salary but I suspect his PER/salary, WS/salary, WARP/salary, etc. would all come out at the top. So I suppose I'll just choose to look at the MVP that way this year.

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 02:19 PM
i just think it says something that Rose gets 1st team mostly cuz he is the assumed MVP. if dwight wins MVP or not, he gets 1st team. same goes for Lebron and Kobe.....


i just think Wade is going to get cheated just because ppl dont like the idea of the MVP not being on the 1st team, which to me isnt right.

I feel ya man. And I agree to an extent, however I just can't see this year's media darling being left off the 1st team assuming he wins the MVP. Its been done before, and it may happen again.

I don't necessarily think Wade would be getting cheated. The 1st team has errors on it constantly. Nothing new here. And I don't think Rose should be getting slack for the race being so weak this year. Its not his fault.

Baller1
04-13-2011, 02:19 PM
Well with Dwight another thing people fail to mention is the technicals he has received. I mean 18 t's and 2 games from suspensions is not being valuable to your team IMO.

I agree completely, Dwight lacks in maturity (which I've come to realize is a clear advantage Rose has over Westbrook as well).

Yes Dwight's technicals certainly aren't adding any sort of value, but I don't really think such a subtle intangible should hinder his MVP campaign. Just my opinion on that.

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 02:22 PM
I don't doubt that Rose has it locked up and will definitely win it this year, but I refuse to be a supporter of it. I do not dislike the guy as many seem to believe, I just can't see any justifiable case for him being more valuable than Dwight Howard; especially considering the year Dwight had.

you don't have to support it. I didn't support Iverson winning his. I didn't support Nash winning at least one of his. I didn't support Kobe winning his (that year anyways). I think the MVP award has been given to the wrong player plenty of times before.

I understand this site has a ton of Bulls fans who come out united anytime someone questions Rose being the MVP, but sorry, that is how it goes guys. Especially in a weak MVP race where the leader of the race is clearly not a top 5 player yet.

ManRam
04-13-2011, 02:23 PM
I don't doubt that Rose has it locked up and will definitely win it this year, but I refuse to be a supporter of it. I do not dislike the guy as many seem to believe, I just can't see any justifiable case for him being more valuable than Dwight Howard; especially considering the year Dwight had.

I don't think he's more valuable than Dwight, but even the MVP award spells "Most Valuable Player", it often doesn't award the award to that player. Look, I really wish the Magic were the surprise team this year and the media clung to him, but again, he honestly doesn't deserve the award because the award does care too much about records.

I think there does need to be more open dialog and rhetoric about what exactly we hand out the MVP award to each year, because it does seem to change frequently. It's an award without a definition or criteria really.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-13-2011, 02:28 PM
I don't think he's more valuable than Dwight, but even the MVP award spells "Most Valuable Player", it often doesn't award the award to that player. Look, I really wish the Magic were the surprise team this year and the media clung to him, but again, he honestly doesn't deserve the award because the award does care too much about records.

I think there does need to be more open dialog and rhetoric about what exactly we hand out the MVP award to each year, because it does seem to change frequently. It's an award without a definition or criteria really.

I actually think the award does have a definition: the best player on the best team (or on one of the top 3 teams). In some years, this tends to match with who the most valuable player actually is (Lebron) and some years it doesn't (Nash, Iverson, etc.). But I think (and I may be wrong) that if you look at most of the MVPs, they are on one of the top 3 teams in the league. That would be my guess.

mikealike305
04-13-2011, 02:29 PM
I feel ya man. And I agree to an extent, however I just can't see this year's media darling being left off the 1st team assuming he wins the MVP. Its been done before, and it may happen again.

I don't necessarily think Wade would be getting cheated. The 1st team has errors on it constantly. Nothing new here. And I don't think Rose should be getting slack for the race being so weak this year. Its not his fault.

yea i understand. and i dont feel Rose should be getting slack either. i think it speaks more of the media and how they tend to favor some guys and storylines or others. but it is, what it is.

at the end of the day all that matters is who ends up the the ring

Baller1
04-13-2011, 02:32 PM
you don't have to support it. I didn't support Iverson winning his. I didn't support Nash winning at least one of his. I didn't support Kobe winning his (that year anyways). I think the MVP award has been given to the wrong player plenty of times before.

I understand this site has a ton of Bulls fans who come out united anytime someone questions Rose being the MVP, but sorry, that is how it goes guys. Especially in a weak MVP race where the leader of the race is clearly not a top 5 player yet.

Oh I know, I'm not even remotely mad about the decision. I'm simply just voicing my opinion. In no way do I discredit Rose, it's just my personal opinion is that Dwight should be the MVP this season.

But congrats to Rose, the Bulls were great this year.


I don't think he's more valuable than Dwight, but even the MVP award spells "Most Valuable Player", it often doesn't award the award to that player. Look, I really wish the Magic were the surprise team this year and the media clung to him, but again, he honestly doesn't deserve the award because the award does care too much about records.

I think there does need to be more open dialog and rhetoric about what exactly we hand out the MVP award to each year, because it does seem to change frequently. It's an award without a definition or criteria really.

That's really what it boils down to; how does an individual interpret the credentials of an MVP in contrast to another person?

"MVP" just lacks a referent... That's all.

Greet
04-13-2011, 02:32 PM
Rose unanimous? Holy god that's just pathetic....not even one person picked D. Howard? LOL

Greet
04-13-2011, 02:35 PM
Take Howard off the Magic, one of the worst teams in NBA.
Take Rose off the Bulls, still a playoff team.

Rose is an inefficient scorer, bad passer, decent rebounder, average at BEST defender.

ManRam
04-13-2011, 02:43 PM
Take Howard off the Magic, one of the worst teams in NBA.
Take Rose off the Bulls, still a playoff team.

Rose is an inefficient scorer, bad passer, decent rebounder, average at BEST defender.

I agree, but is that what the MVP should concern itself with? Is that all that matters: whose team does worse if you remove them? Also, does that make up for the 10-11 game differential between the two teams?

It's not that easy. Look, I'm a huge Magic fan, and would love Dwight to get it, but he won't. The Magic have the 8th best record in the league, have regressed significantly as a regular season team and they aren't considered serious championship contenders. When's the last time a player has won being in a situation like that.

nitric
04-13-2011, 02:44 PM
what does that say bout Roses MVP campain?



im just saying.....

Man it's like every player is capable of putting 25/8/4. Not like he's winning the MVP with a 18/6/5 statline
Also:

Derrick Rose scored 26 points Tuesday, giving him more than 2,000 for the season. Rose is only the third player in the past 30 years to have 2,000 points and 600 assists in one season. LeBron James did it in 2009-10 and Michael Jordan did it in 1988-89.


Rose is also the ONLY other PG ever to have 2000+ points, 300+ rebounds, 600+ assists, 80+ steals and 50+ blocks in a single season. The only other player (PG) to do it is Oscar Robertson.

Another note: Rose is arguably having a better season than Kobe as well. He's also been one of the best closers in the game.

theheatles
04-13-2011, 02:44 PM
An argument can be made for Melo making it. But starting your post with, "Must be a bunch of Melo haters", kind of refutes any point you then attempt to make.

Make a case. A real one. Melo is a talent, but he was responsible for a media frenzy for half the season, and hasn't played as well this year as in years past, and the Knicks were 3 games above .500 when he showed up, and have played .500 ball since. Its just not the year for him quite frankly.

how in the world did kevin love make a team then?

Baller1
04-13-2011, 02:46 PM
Man it's like every player is capable of putting 25/8/4. Not like he's winning the MVP with a 18/6/5 statline
Also:

Joining company like that means very little. I could throw a bunch of those things out for a bunch of different players.

Greet
04-13-2011, 02:48 PM
Man it's like every player is capable of putting 25/8/4. Not like he's winning the MVP with a 18/6/5 statline
Also:



Another note: Rose is arguably having a better season than Kobe as well. He's also been one of the best closers in the game.

Why does Lebron get no credit? He's putting up 27/7/8 on better shooting and he has more SPG then D-Rose etc.

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 02:48 PM
how in the world did kevin love make a team then?

He outplayed Melo individually this season, that is why. His individual numbers have never been seen, in regards to an inside/outside big.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-13-2011, 02:48 PM
A great article (http://www.magicbasketball.net/2011/03/29/derrick-rose-is-not-the-mvp/) over at Magicbasketball.net provided some data for me to calculate per salary numbers.


Adj +/- Net +/- Stat+/- PER WARP WS/48
Rose 1.50 0.09 0.95 4.24 2.93 0.036
Lebron 0.73 0.72 0.56 1.86 1.43 0.016
Dwight 0.78 0.36 0.44 1.57 1.25 0.014


Basically, I divided each statistical category by each players' salary. The higher the number, the more you are getting for each million dollars' in salary.

As you guys can see, Rose does come out on top and thats mainly due to his small salary compared to Lebron and Dwight. But the problem is no one says you should consider salary when picking an MVP.

I should also add that Net +/- is very deceiving. The other stats are much better.

Edit: I'll aslo link to this thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=606357) which has VORP numbers and Production numbers. It's as of March 28th. But if anyone wants to subtract the salary from the Production, the salaries can be found at hoopdata. For the 3 players in question here, Lebron's was 14.5 million, Rose's was 5.5 million and Dwight's was 16.6 million. Again, Rose comes out on top in terms of Production - actual salary (you have to go to the thread I linked to to know what I'm talking about).

nitric
04-13-2011, 02:49 PM
Joining company like that means very little. I could throw a bunch of those things out for a bunch of different players.

I'm only saying that because people think Rose is having the weakest year for an MVP. He's had a historic season if you think about it. Plus he easily passes the eye test

ManRam
04-13-2011, 02:49 PM
I actually think the award does have a definition: the best player on the best team (or on one of the top 3 teams). In some years, this tends to match with who the most valuable player actually is (Lebron) and some years it doesn't (Nash, Iverson, etc.). But I think (and I may be wrong) that if you look at most of the MVPs, they are on one of the top 3 teams in the league. That would be my guess.

That's the trend, for sure. I know in the last decade it hasn't ever happened that an MVP hasn't been on a top 3 team. Not sure it's as cut and dry as best player on the best team (it obviously isn't), but team record is obviously heavily dependent, hence why I think Rose will win it, and while I don't think he's more valuable than Dwight, he's a stronger candidate for this award.

However, I know for a FACT that voters don't think the award has a definition. Some define it like that, but many don't.

Baller1
04-13-2011, 02:49 PM
how in the world did kevin love make a team then?

No expectations (Love) vs. High expectations (Melo).

Greet
04-13-2011, 02:50 PM
A great article (http://www.magicbasketball.net/2011/03/29/derrick-rose-is-not-the-mvp/) over at Magicbasketball.net provided some data for me to calculate per salary numbers.


Adj +/- Net +/- Stat+/- PER WARP WS/48
Rose 1.50 0.09 0.95 4.24 2.93 0.036
Lebron 0.73 0.72 0.56 1.86 1.43 0.016
Dwight 0.78 0.36 0.44 1.57 1.25 0.014


Basically, I divided each statistical category by each players' salary. The higher the number, the more you are getting for each million dollars' in salary.

As you guys can see, Rose does come out on top and thats mainly due to his small salary compared to Lebron and Dwight. But the problem is no one says you should consider salary when picking an MVP.

Salary meas nothing at all. Lebron and Dwight where proven superstars before this year, Rose wasnt.

nitric
04-13-2011, 02:51 PM
I also believe Dwight costing his team wins due to suspensions should be in the mix when deciding. He leads the league in technicals

nitric
04-13-2011, 02:54 PM
Why does Lebron get no credit? He's putting up 27/7/8 on better shooting and he has more SPG then D-Rose etc.

No one is denying LeBron's numbers. It's just that the Heat underachieved (by their standard, hype: their fans/media were calling a 70 win season :facepalm:) Plus LeBron has shown us he isn't that great in crunch time (That 2 week stretch where he bricked every last shot)

And The Decision probably plays a role in it as well.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-13-2011, 02:57 PM
That's the trend, for sure. I know in the last decade it hasn't ever happened that an MVP hasn't been on a top 3 team. Not sure it's as cut and dry as best player on the best team (it obviously isn't), but team record is obviously heavily dependent, hence why I think Rose will win it, and while I don't think he's more valuable than Dwight, he's a stronger candidate for this award.

However, I know for a FACT that voters don't think the award has a definition. Some define it like that, but many don't.

They don't think it has a definition. But deep down, in the dark corners of their minds, that is how they define it whether they seem to realize it or not. It's pretty telling that the MVP only comes from teams that have top 3 records.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-13-2011, 03:02 PM
Salary meas nothing at all. Lebron and Dwight where proven superstars before this year, Rose wasnt.

I'm not saying salary should mean anything. If you saw earlier in the thread, I flat out said Rose shouldn't be the MVP and I said that I was disappointed with the roundtable for conforming to the masses. But the reality of the situation is that Rose will win the MVP, whether you agree or disagree.

However, for those who disagree but HAVE to accept the fact that Rose will win it, I'm providing an argument for Rose based on his salary. It's one I don't agree with but at least it has some form of substance behind it unlike a lot of the other arguments for Rose.

tredigs
04-13-2011, 03:15 PM
I agree.

I'm kind of disappointed that PSD's Roundtable which is composed of well respected posters had to conform to the masses on the MVP. I know Hawkeye, Chronz, tredigs, etc. are all well aware of the reasons Howard should be MVP over Rose. But we all know Rose will win it quite easily. But as far as the other awards go, I have no problems (well like others have said, I'd go Wade over Rose with the 1st team).

The record is why I couldn't justify Howard as MVP. I wanted to (and mentioned that in the writeup when we were selecting), but the combination of Rose/Chi being stellar down the closing stretch and the Magic finishing with the leagues 8th best record was too much to overlook.

I was about to go into this further, but I gots to get back to work. Until later...

Sadds The Gr8
04-13-2011, 03:24 PM
I agree with pretty much everything except Rose being MVP. I don't think there's a chance in hell that the voters will put Love in over Melo on the 3rd team, but w/e.

nitric
04-13-2011, 03:25 PM
Is there a list of people that voted? And what they wrote? I'd like to see the thought process

D Roses Bulls
04-13-2011, 03:38 PM
to the people that are *****ing...... so what? it's a freaking psd vote, it doesn't REALLY matter. they just gave what they thought. stat your case and move on, but to make a big deal out of this is just dumb. No I don't think Love should of made any kind of all-NBA team, but it doesn't count. This is MADE UP!!!! nobody should take this seriously at all.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-13-2011, 03:47 PM
The record is why I couldn't justify Howard as MVP. I wanted to (and mentioned that in the writeup when we were selecting), but the combination of Rose/Chi being stellar down the closing stretch and the Magic finishing with the leagues 8th best record was too much to overlook.

I was about to go into this further, but I gots to get back to work. Until later...

Based on the way the MVP has been handed out in the past, I have no doubt you guys voted correctly. My issue is with the definition of MVP. In my eyes, the award they're handing out isn't really for most valuable player but rather best player (or most valuable) on a top 3 team. Anyone who finishes outside of the top 3 overall is practically disqualified. As ManRam said earlier, every MVP this decade has been on a top 3 team. If that is the criteria for the "MVP", then I have no problem with the vote.

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 03:52 PM
Is there a list of people that voted? And what they wrote? I'd like to see the thought process

From the OP


Contributors: ManRamForPrez24, Hawkeye15, Corey, Avenged24, daleja424, tredigs, Rosh, td0tsfinest, macc, Chronz, SteBo, hugepatsfan.

Kashmir13579
04-13-2011, 03:58 PM
i'd be hard-pressed to argue with any of these selections. although i disagree with that placement of guards on the 1st and 2nd team, i understand how you could easily come to that conclusion.

nice job, guys.

Geargo Wallace
04-13-2011, 03:59 PM
How do I get on the Round table panel? My posts are golden and widely respected in this place! Without me where would you guys be? I'm the most level-headed, sincere, modest, intelligent, unbiased, amazingly awesome poster in all of PSD! I'm utterly outraged that I didn't get an invite. I'm going to start my own round table and run tingssss

Ray_R
04-13-2011, 04:05 PM
Bulls fans impeach Rosh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mile High Champ
04-13-2011, 04:06 PM
Very well done guys. I like almost all the picks except I do believe Ed Davis deserves to be on the all rookie team instead of Cousins.

Geargo Wallace
04-13-2011, 04:09 PM
Very well done guys. I like almost all the picks except I do believe Ed Davis deserves to be on the all rookie team instead of Cousins.

you're so biased bro...

not. But Eddy does deserve some recognition. He's been quite the surprise, especially with starting off the season injury-riddled. I'd put him ahead of Cousins. He's been a little disappointing for all that talking he does.

DITKA4GOV
04-13-2011, 04:10 PM
to the people that are *****ing...... so what? it's a freaking psd vote, it doesn't REALLY matter. they just gave what they thought. stat your case and move on, but to make a big deal out of this is just dumb. No I don't think Love should of made any kind of all-NBA team, but it doesn't count. This is MADE UP!!!! nobody should take this seriously at all.

But it is made up which gives us something to discuss. I continue to be just surprise at the lack of respect rose gets around here.I know we all have our opinions, and what write is not Gospel. I know that. I'm sure numerous bulls fans multiple posts has added to the dislike he receives, but once again his numbers do speak for themselves. He is having a great year, leading the top east team into the playoffs. As I pointed out earlier, numbers wise he matches up with Wade. Efficiency numbers are down for a Guy that sometimes is forced to flat out carry a team that misses its two big guys for long stretches. His haters say bad defender yet he has almost the same amount of blocks as lebron. Ask deron Paul Rondo. They all had subpar games when rose was the guy across from them. Rose is as deserving of all NBA 1st team as Wade is in my opinion.

I wonder if rose had the personality of a Wade, would he be as universally hated on these posts. Maybe do a dance after a dunk in a game he is losing, and will eventually lose... will that make everyone like him. Complain about the coach, or shoulder bump the coach, would that do it for ya? How about get technicals to the point where the league has to suspend him thus hurting his teams chance of getting a win, is that what it takes? Is it his humble persona that bothers everybody. If he choked a Carlisimo, would he finally get ur respect?

PatsSoxKnicks
04-13-2011, 04:15 PM
But it is made up which gives us something to discuss. I continue to be just surprise at the lack of respect rose gets around here.I know we all have our opinions, and what write is not Gospel. I know that. I'm sure numerous bulls fans multiple posts has added to the dislike he receives, but once again his numbers do speak for themselves. He is having a great year, leading the top east team into the playoffs. As I pointed out earlier, numbers wise he matches up with Wade. Efficiency numbers are down for a Guy that sometimes is forced to flat out carry a team that misses its two big guys for long stretches. His haters say bad defender yet he has almost the same amount of blocks as lebron. Ask deron Paul Rondo. They all had subpar games when rose was the guy across from them. Rose is as deserving of all NBA 1st team as Wade is in my opinion.

I wonder if rose had the personality of a Wade, would he be as universally hated on these posts. Maybe do a dance after a dunk in a game he is losing, and will eventually lose... will that make everyone like him. Complain about the coach, or shoulder bump the coach, would that do it for ya? How about get technicals to the point where the league has to suspend him thus hurting his teams chance of getting a win, is that what it takes? Is it his humble persona that bothers everybody. If he choked a Carlisimo, would he finally get ur respect?

I don't see why its disrespecting Rose to say he should be 2nd or 3rd in the MVP voting as opposed to 1st.

theheatles
04-13-2011, 04:15 PM
He outplayed Melo individually this season, that is why. His individual numbers have never been seen, in regards to an inside/outside big.

all those games vs carmelo he still lost and kevin love still plays for the worst team in the league...his stats shouldn't be as coveted because the team is so bad

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 04:19 PM
But it is made up which gives us something to discuss. I continue to be just surprise at the lack of respect rose gets around here.I know we all have our opinions, and what write is not Gospel. I know that. I'm sure numerous bulls fans multiple posts has added to the dislike he receives, but once again his numbers do speak for themselves. He is having a great year, leading the top east team into the playoffs. As I pointed out earlier, numbers wise he matches up with Wade. Efficiency numbers are down for a Guy that sometimes is forced to flat out carry a team that misses its two big guys for long stretches. His haters say bad defender yet he has almost the same amount of blocks as lebron. Ask deron Paul Rondo. They all had subpar games when rose was the guy across from them. Rose is as deserving of all NBA 1st team as Wade is in my opinion.

I wonder if rose had the personality of a Wade, would he be as universally hated on these posts. Maybe do a dance after a dunk in a game he is losing, and will eventually lose... will that make everyone like him. Complain about the coach, or shoulder bump the coach, would that do it for ya? How about get technicals to the point where the league has to suspend him thus hurting his teams chance of getting a win, is that what it takes? Is it his humble persona that bothers everybody. If he choked a Carlisimo, would he finally get ur respect?


Rose gets plenty of respect by the stronger posters in the NBA forums. You must understand, that any player who happened to be leading the race this year would face tough scrutiny in here, and everywhere. This race is unlike many before it. There are no clear cut candidates, the best player in the NBA is still getting media backlash for his "Decision", etc, etc.

You need to week through the posters who have nothing to contribute to the debate, and engage those who do.

As many have said, the precedent has been set that a player who is not a top 5 player can win the MVP. Rose is having a great season, no doubt. But he is also being carried by the top defensive team in the NBA, and defense happens to be the weaker part of his game. He is leading the #11 offense in the NBA, and that is the stronger part of his game. Is Rose the MVP of the Bulls? Of course he is. But there are better players out there, that meet the criteria of an MVP (top player on a top 4 team), so there will be debating on this back and forth.

Weed your way through the guys who just want to spew venom on Rose, and have real conversations. And you have to admit, there are many Bulls fans that are so irritating, they make it frustrating to engage Bulls fans many times in a debate surrounding Rose.

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 04:22 PM
all those games vs carmelo he still lost and kevin love still plays for the worst team in the league...his stats shouldn't be as coveted because the team is so bad

that is your opinion man, and you are entitled to it. One player can't win games in the NBA. Some really value team success in their selections, some understand you just can't win games by yourself when you have minimal help.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
04-13-2011, 04:25 PM
where is Dirk? There is no way, and I mean NONE, that Dirk doesn't make 1st or 2nd team.

his stats are all lower then Melo's... So no way is Dirk ahead of Melo. But I guess you could argue him bein over KD, I don't really care. But Even then... KD scoring is higher, and rebounds are barley under.

Purple&Gold24
04-13-2011, 04:25 PM
Seems pretty accurate. Nice job staff!! :clap:

DITKA4GOV
04-13-2011, 04:31 PM
I don't see why its disrespecting Rose to say he should be 2nd or 3rd in the MVP voting as opposed to 1st.

That goes right back to defines what MVP really means. I truly think if u go by historically who wins MVP, rose is most deserving. If u go by best player in the league stats and eye test, lebron easy. Don't see how Howard fits in when u look at record, techs and maturity issues... my opinion tho.

Sadds The Gr8
04-13-2011, 04:34 PM
Very well done guys. I like almost all the picks except I do believe Ed Davis deserves to be on the all rookie team instead of Cousins.

i like Ed but no way. If he started more games and had more mins, i think he'd definitely be in over Monroe

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 04:37 PM
his stats are all lower then Melo's... So no way is Dirk ahead of Melo. But I guess you could argue him bein over KD, I don't really care. But Even then... KD scoring is higher, and rebounds are barley under.

when we look at REAL stats, Dirk is better, and has been the leader of a team fighting for a top seed in the playoffs all year

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=anthoca01&y1=2011&p2=nowitdi01&y2=2011

Melo's team got better when he left, and his new team didn't improve a lick. I would not care one way or another if he made 3rd team all NBA (I still don't think he should this season), but there is no way he beats out LeBron, Dirk, Durant, Amare, and he will ge fighting Duncan, Love, Aldrige and a couple others for 3rd team. I would expect his name may very well get him on the 3rd team. But his effect to his team due to him wanting out, and the trade fiasco, and him just not playing as well as some other forwards individually, by no means justify him being on either the 1st or 2nd team.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-13-2011, 04:48 PM
when we look at REAL stats, Dirk is better, and has been the leader of a team fighting for a top seed in the playoffs all year

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=anthoca01&y1=2011&p2=nowitdi01&y2=2011

Melo's team got better when he left, and his new team didn't improve a lick. I would not care one way or another if he made 3rd team all NBA (I still don't think he should this season), but there is no way he beats out LeBron, Dirk, Durant, Amare, and he will ge fighting Duncan, Love, Aldrige and a couple others for 3rd team. I would expect his name may very well get him on the 3rd team. But his effect to his team due to him wanting out, and the trade fiasco, and him just not playing as well as some other forwards individually, by no means justify him being on either the 1st or 2nd team.

While what you say is true, Melo has played some of his best ball in his career since coming to the Knicks. I realize 25 games is nowhere near a full season but his Knick numbers would be career highs in ORtg, TS%, PER, TOV%, WS/48, etc. All this while trying to get used to a new team.

With that said, I'm not saying he should make any of the all-NBA teams.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
04-13-2011, 05:06 PM
when we look at REAL stats, Dirk is better, and has been the leader of a team fighting for a top seed in the playoffs all year
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=anthoca01&y1=2011&p2=nowitdi01&y2=2011

Melo's team got better when he left, and his new team didn't improve a lick. I would not care one way or another if he made 3rd team all NBA (I still don't think he should this season), but there is no way he beats out LeBron, Dirk, Durant, Amare, and he will ge fighting Duncan, Love, Aldrige and a couple others for 3rd team. I would expect his name may very well get him on the 3rd team. But his effect to his team due to him wanting out, and the trade fiasco, and him just not playing as well as some other forwards individually, by no means justify him being on either the 1st or 2nd team.

lol Real stats?? the ones I got are straight from NBA.com bro.

your second part has NOTHING to do with Melo bein above Dirk, statistically. Therefore in MY all NBA 2nd team. He's not playin as well as some forwards? He won east player of the week 2 weeks in a row... Do you even watch the Knicks or Melo play?

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 05:12 PM
While what you say is true, Melo has played some of his best ball in his career since coming to the Knicks. I realize 25 games is nowhere near a full season but his Knick numbers would be career highs in ORtg, TS%, PER, TOV%, WS/48, etc. All this while trying to get used to a new team.

With that said, I'm not saying he should make any of the all-NBA teams.

agreed, but its just too late in the season for me to put him on the 3rd team. But as I said, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he made it

JordansBulls
04-13-2011, 05:14 PM
Take Howard off the Magic, one of the worst teams in NBA.
Take Rose off the Bulls, still a playoff team.

Rose is an inefficient scorer, bad passer, decent rebounder, average at BEST defender.

The Magic would still have Gilbert Arenas a player who has led teams to the playoffs as the man before. Bulls wouldn't have that.

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 05:15 PM
lol Real stats?? the ones I got are straight from NBA.com bro.

your second part has NOTHING to do with Melo bein above Dirk, statistically. Therefore in MY all NBA 2nd team. He's not playin as well as some forwards? He won east player of the week 2 weeks in a row... Do you even watch the Knicks or Melo play?

per game stats are archaic and don't tell us much. Otherwise why wouldn't we be putting Monta Ellis on the 3rd team?


26 games is not a big enough sample size for me bro, sorry. He was nothing but a thorn in the side of his franchise the first 50 games, and his numbers were down.

I have no issue with him making 3rd team (though he is not on mine), but there is no way he has outplayed Dirk, Durant, LeBron, or Amare for the whole year.

Did you even open the link I posted? I doubt it. Nba.com, or any site that uses per game numbers is archaic and misses a lot.

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 05:17 PM
The Magic would still have Gilbert Arenas a player who has led teams to the playoffs as the man before. Bulls wouldn't have that.

dude, you are smarter than this. Arenas from this year is in no way, shape, or form, the Arenas from those years. Terrible comparison.

The Bulls defense alone would get them in the playoffs out east. That isn't saying much, but cmon man

abe_froman
04-13-2011, 05:22 PM
As many have said, the precedent has been set that a player who is not a top 5 player can win the MVP. Rose is having a great season, no doubt. But he is also being carried by the top defensive team in the NBA, and defense happens to be the weaker part of his game. He is leading the #11 offense in the NBA, and that is the stronger part of his game. Is Rose the MVP of the Bulls? Of course he is. But there are better players out there, that meet the criteria of an MVP (top player on a top 4 team), so there will be debating on this back and forth.


this isnt meant as rose should be mvp argument.just a flaw i noticed in the "rose shouldnt win because defense is whats carrying the bulls argument".points still have to be put points on the board.even if that defense held a team to zero,someone has to score 2 for the bulls to win that game and thats been rose to a great degree.

the award usually is handed out to best player on the best team(recordwise) which the bulls are currently tied in,and not best player award.i understand that its become controversial this year,but its odd that it has been when its always been this way.the idea that it is/should be the best player award has come up just this year

Gators123
04-13-2011, 05:22 PM
The Magic would still have Gilbert Arenas a player who has led teams to the playoffs as the man before. Bulls wouldn't have that.

Come on, JB. I know your a big PER and WS guy, so check this out...

Arenas with Orlando

PER- 8.6
WS- 0.1
WS/48- 0.006


:laugh2:


The guy is DONE.

D Roses Bulls
04-13-2011, 05:25 PM
But it is made up which gives us something to discuss. I continue to be just surprise at the lack of respect rose gets around here.I know we all have our opinions, and what write is not Gospel. I know that. I'm sure numerous bulls fans multiple posts has added to the dislike he receives, but once again his numbers do speak for themselves. He is having a great year, leading the top east team into the playoffs. As I pointed out earlier, numbers wise he matches up with Wade. Efficiency numbers are down for a Guy that sometimes is forced to flat out carry a team that misses its two big guys for long stretches. His haters say bad defender yet he has almost the same amount of blocks as lebron. Ask deron Paul Rondo. They all had subpar games when rose was the guy across from them. Rose is as deserving of all NBA 1st team as Wade is in my opinion.

I wonder if rose had the personality of a Wade, would he be as universally hated on these posts. Maybe do a dance after a dunk in a game he is losing, and will eventually lose... will that make everyone like him. Complain about the coach, or shoulder bump the coach, would that do it for ya? How about get technicals to the point where the league has to suspend him thus hurting his teams chance of getting a win, is that what it takes? Is it his humble persona that bothers everybody. If he choked a Carlisimo, would he finally get ur respect?

I know dude. but look at the list, like half of them hate rose anyways from the people who voted. I was surprised rose won the mvp on here. but dude, these votes dont really count. i mean yeah its okay to discuss, but its just make believe. you know haters are gonna hate anyways

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 05:26 PM
this isnt meant as rose should be mvp argument.just a flaw i noticed in the "rose shouldnt win because defense is whats carrying the bulls argument".points still have to be put on the board,even if that defense held a team to zero,someone has to score 2 for the bulls to win that game.

the award usually is handed out to best player on the best team(recordwise) which the bulls are currently tied in,and not best player award.i understand that its become controversial this year,but its odd that it has been when its always been this way.the idea that it is/should be the best player award has come up just this year

well, the last couple of years, LeBron was SO dominant, the MVP was over by the all star break.

The biggest reason you keep hearing about the defense is, its the biggest reason the Bulls have 60 wins. More of a reason than Rose. Now, many have argued that the best player should win it period for a long time. Obviously you need that player to be on a playoff team, but I continue to say, the real reason this one has become so controversial is that there are no clear cut players that you go, "Oh, him, easy" this year. And Rose is still not widely regarded as a top 3 player by ANYONE let alone top 5 in almost every case.

Does that mean he shouldn't win MVP? Not necessarily. But it does mean Bulls fans need to weather the storm of debate surrounding this year's weak MVP race.

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 05:27 PM
I know dude. but look at the list, like half of them hate rose anyways from the people who voted. I was surprised rose won the mvp on here. but dude, these votes dont really count. i mean yeah its okay to discuss, but its just make believe. you know haters are gonna hate anyways

you have turned into a bitter poster in the course of the last 3 months. Hope to see the positive you back soon.

ManRam
04-13-2011, 05:32 PM
Come on, JB. I know your a big PER and WS guy, so check this out...

Arenas with Orlando

PER- 8.6
WS- 0.1
WS/48- 0.006


:laugh2:


The guy is DONE.

I've heard JB say a few strange things about Gil before, like this. I don't get it.

What more do people have to realize that he has nothing left? He admitted he isn't quite 100% and has some psychological issues in relation to the injuries (said he's scared to jump)...but Jesus, the guy isn't going to do anything for us this season. He had a big game the other day, but literally all he did was hoist threes and make most of them. Most any player in the NBA can do that on a given night.

He seriously couldn't get past a ****ing Christmas tree at this point in his career...let alone an NBA player.

I can't believe people still think this guy is good. He was good 4 seasons ago. That was a LONG time ago. I hope he can truly make gains this summer. He's already announced he's working with one of the best trainers there is. But this season, Gil can't lead the Magic ANYWHERE. He's a bum.

Bruno
04-13-2011, 05:48 PM
Well done PSD R-T! :clap:

I agree with 98% of these selections; I'd argue for Love over Amare on the 2nd team but that's it.

abe_froman
04-13-2011, 05:51 PM
well, the last couple of years, LeBron was SO dominant, the MVP was over by the all star break.
this true but lebron's team also had best record.something that gets lost in the statistical dominance..that and the fact that those wow,dominating years thats far above every player dont usually happen.and even then it doesnt always net them the award(see mj in '87)



The biggest reason you keep hearing about the defense is, its the biggest reason the Bulls have 60 wins. More of a reason than Rose. Now, many have argued that the best player should win it period for a long time. Obviously you need that player to be on a playoff team, but I continue to say, the real reason this one has become so controversial is that there are no clear cut players that you go, "Oh, him, easy" this year. And Rose is still not widely regarded as a top 3 player by ANYONE let alone top 5 in almost every case.
it is the main reason for the success,i'm not begrudging that.just that it takes more than dominance from a team on one side of the ball to win.that as great a d as there is,you still have to outscore the opponent

i wouldnt say anyone.many regard him as top 3 or top 5(right or wrong doesnt matter.not arguing if its justifiable or anything, just pointing out that many do.).and yes it is one of those years were there is no clear cut should be's.it makes for a fun year but it also inflames emotion on both sides and feel many good points about him,the award,others in the race have all gotten lost

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 05:55 PM
this true but lebron's team also had best record.something that gets lost in the statistical dominance..that and the fact that those wow,dominating years thats far above every player dont usually happen.and even then it doesnt always net them the award(see mj in '87)


it is the main reason for the success,i'm not begrudging that.just that it takes more than dominance from a team on one side of the ball to win.that as great a d as there is,you still have to outscore the opponent

i wouldnt say anyone.many regard him as top 3 or top 5(right or wrong doesnt matter.not arguing if its justifiable or anything, just pointing out that many do.).and yes it is one of those years were there is no clear cut should be's.it makes for a fun year but it also inflames emotion on both sides and feel many good points about him,the award,others in the race have all gotten lost


I don't think anyone in their right mind would say Rose is as good as LeBron, Dwight, or Kobe.

And honestly, I have gotten warmer and warmer to the idea of him winning MVP. The Bulls are crushing it to finish the season, and he is playing great. I still think there is going to be debate over it when all is said and done, but I am a lot more accepting today than I was 2 months ago.

D Roses Bulls
04-13-2011, 06:08 PM
you have turned into a bitter poster in the course of the last 3 months. Hope to see the positive you back soon.

bitter? I have nothing to be bitter about. my bulls are doing great. rose is about to win mvp. I mean even if the bulls dont make the finals this year, I'm still great cause they did better than even I expected. you just get mad at me cause we vary in our opinions, I speak my mind and don't kiss *** on here and I don't believe stats are as useful in basketball as they are in baseball as you and some of the "respectable" people on here do. sorry if you think I'm bitter, but I call it as I see it and I have never said anything negative towards you on here, don't know why you are trying to attack me.

abe_froman
04-13-2011, 06:12 PM
I don't think anyone in their right mind would say Rose is as good as LeBron, Dwight, or Kobe.
i've heard it on nba tv,tnt,espn enough to know it is a sentiment amongst commentators and articles saying as much from players and coaches around the league.for statheads,its a non starter and silly your right.which i think is what is dueling those on forums/blogs who are adamant that he isnt.(personally i'm iffy on it,but i think he will be,probably like kobe who was disliked by the same people for the same reason for much of his career)



And honestly, I have gotten warmer and warmer to the idea of him winning MVP. The Bulls are crushing it to finish the season, and he is playing great. I still think there is going to be debate over it when all is said and done, but I am a lot more accepting today than I was 2 months ago.
funny thing is that he had better shooting % numbers 2 months ago(using through asb as the cut) than he does today,which seems to be one of the main points of contention lol.

and i'm not sure.i think his season gets undersold by side a and oversold by side b.dunno if it will be debated about later like kobe's/nash's or just accepted like iverson's or dirk's(some other recent controversial ones)

PatsSoxKnicks
04-13-2011, 07:01 PM
I know dude. but look at the list, like half of them hate rose anyways from the people who voted. I was surprised rose won the mvp on here. but dude, these votes dont really count. i mean yeah its okay to discuss, but its just make believe. you know haters are gonna hate anyways

So anyone who thinks Rose shouldn't be the MVP is a hater? Ok :rolleyes:

Avenged
04-13-2011, 07:20 PM
Rose got selected among PSD members to be MVP. Even posters who have criticized him voted for him. I don't know what else some people want. I thought these awards were pretty accurate overall.

tredigs
04-13-2011, 07:51 PM
Based on the way the MVP has been handed out in the past, I have no doubt you guys voted correctly. My issue is with the definition of MVP. In my eyes, the award they're handing out isn't really for most valuable player but rather best player (or most valuable) on a top 3 team. Anyone who finishes outside of the top 3 overall is practically disqualified. As ManRam said earlier, every MVP this decade has been on a top 3 team. If that is the criteria for the "MVP", then I have no problem with the vote.

Yup, I get your point, and agree with it for the most part. But once you fall out of the top 5-6 teams in the league, it becomes very hard for me to justify that guy as the MVP. Especially if it's a case where the Magic weren't exactly crushed by injury, and imo they do indeed have a number of fairly solid players who a player of Dwight's caliber could indeed carry to more than 55 wins.

In my mind I think he still lacks a competitive aspect to his game where his dominance on the court becomes contagious. A was reading an article that touched on this the other day, and it resonated hugely with my thoughts on Dwight; essentially saying that his constant smiling/joking is all well and good, but it doesn't breed the winning mentality in the group that a personality of a guy like D. Rose/Kobe/Durant/Cp3/Westbrook will.

I've played sports all throughout my life, and when the best player on the team is a goof (no matter how talented/solid he is, or how serious he is come gametime), it's definitely not an ideal circumstance for the teams mind-state going into games.

Long story short - stats and records being the obvious criteria for best player, that's one intangible that I do take into account when considering the "Most Valuable Player" to any one team in (what I consider) a close race like this one.

I have a ton more to say on this concerning how much weight should be given to a player on the top seeded team to a player on the 4th seeded team for example, and how that teams role players/coaches, etc. affect their "importance" (if I really wanted to dork out I think a fun graph could be made using the criteria), but I'm pretty much blathering on at this point.

I'll just leave it as I put in the the initial write up: Rose = MVP and 2nd Team All League. Howard = DPOY and 1st Team All League.

sargon21
04-13-2011, 08:25 PM
Hawkeye, Rose has outplayed Kobe THIS year.

Hawkeye15
04-13-2011, 08:40 PM
Hawkeye, Rose has outplayed Kobe THIS year.

I think a legit case can be made for your claim, but you will find it difficult to get a good percentage of analysts/coaches/GM's on your side with that claim.

I also think Wade, Gasol, and Paul have been better. You start moving past the eye test here though, and into stats world, so be careful.

thekmp211
04-13-2011, 09:16 PM
good stuff, guys.

Doogolas
04-14-2011, 03:23 AM
The MVP has gone to the best story countless, countless times. There was a beautifully written article, I wish I could find it, that basically broke down every MVP ever, and pointed out that very, very, very few of the guys that actually won were the guys that should have won, at least based on most advanced metrics. I'm willing to bet at least half the MVP ever (as in if you listed everybody that won it once or more) half of them didn't deserve it.

:shrug:

Doogolas
04-14-2011, 03:29 AM
I also feel like it's worth pointing out that Rose leading the "#11 offense" shouldn't be a strike against him. It should be a point for him, in fact. Because if you took him off the Bulls, their offense would be unspeakably awful. I would bet somewhere near the bottom 5 in the league, as he's the only guy that can really create his own shot, except, to an extent, CJ Watson and to an even lesser extent, Luol Deng.

It would be horrifically ugly watching that team play offense without Rose. I mean, Rose isn't the best player in the league. But he is outrageously important to the offense the Bulls have. Even if it's not the best offense out there, without him it would be dreadful.

Also, Abe, while his shooting percentage may have been higher, Rose has been playing at a ridiculously high level the last 10 games or so. Absolutely outrageously high level. The last ten games (before tonight I guess) were quite possibly the best 10 game stretch of his career.

Chronz
04-14-2011, 03:40 AM
I also feel like it's worth pointing out that Rose leading the "#11 offense" shouldn't be a strike against him. It should be a point for him, in fact.
Ive seen it argued that his lack of supreme efficiency is whats preventing the team from being elite, compared to Bron/Wade, and he doesnt make his teammates better with his scoring ability and thats why the Bulls arent all that impressive offensively. Sure if you give him enough help the team will be elite offensively but that holds true for anyone.


Because if you took him off the Bulls, their offense would be unspeakably awful. I would bet somewhere near the bottom 5 in the league, as he's the only guy that can really create his own shot, except, to an extent, CJ Watson and to an even lesser extent, Luol Deng.
I agree with your assessment but its not unheard of for a team with no one who could "create his own" to end up with a decent offense. Players who can fit a system can find adequate quality looks by playing off of their teammates. But yea without Rose the offense is among the worst.

Chronz
04-14-2011, 03:43 AM
bitter? I have nothing to be bitter about.

I don't believe stats are as useful in basketball as they are in baseball as you and some of the "respectable" people on here do. sorry if you think I'm bitter, but I call it as I see it
You are definitely bitter if your speaking of the groups collective reputation with sarcastic undertones.

Also show me a single post where ANYONE has ever disputed baseball stats vs basketball stats.


and I have never said anything negative towards you on here, don't know why you are trying to attack me.

Hes not attacking you, your confused, and if you dont mind me saying happens alot.

Chronz
04-14-2011, 03:47 AM
Rose got selected among PSD members to be MVP. Even posters who have criticized him voted for him. I don't know what else some people want. I thought these awards were pretty accurate overall.

They want unwaivering obedience, bow down to the might of Derrick Rose or the fanatics will find you. They would be asking for the Round Table to be shut down if they saw what I wrote about the MVP selection and I voted for the kid, by default.

Whomewhome
04-14-2011, 03:54 AM
I agree with some of the comments on Rose he should be MVP, MIP and on the ALL NBA first team. He simply sucked the juice out of every award. He has been amazing

Doogolas
04-14-2011, 04:25 AM
Ive seen it argued that his lack of supreme efficiency is whats preventing the team from being elite, compared to Bron/Wade, and he doesnt make his teammates better with his scoring ability and thats why the Bulls arent all that impressive offensively. Sure if you give him enough help the team will be elite offensively but that holds true for anyone.


I agree with your assessment but its not unheard of for a team with no one who could "create his own" to end up with a decent offense. Players who can fit a system can find adequate quality looks by playing off of their teammates. But yea without Rose the offense is among the worst.

Somebody still has to be able to handle the ball quite well, actually, I'd say that if you're running a "system offense" that you're going to have a lot of players that can handle the ball fairly well, even if they can't necessarily create their own shot, two or three players at a time would be able to move with the ball in their hands and allow for a lot of ball movement. Then sure. But the Bulls absolutely have nothing close to that.

On the other hand. You're absolutely wrong about him not making his teammates better with his scoring ability. Rose's scoring ability is what causes his teammates to have the highest eFG% in the entire NBA when he passes out of Isolation, which is caused by him having the best FG% of anyone in the league while in an isolation set (This was true as of about 10~ games ago. I have no idea if he still does, either way, there's no way he's fallen very far).

Both of those things are basically what make the Bulls offense above average instead of very, very, very Godawful. Though I guess I don't have to convince you of that one.

Chronz
04-14-2011, 08:59 AM
Somebody still has to be able to handle the ball quite well, actually, I'd say that if you're running a "system offense" that you're going to have a lot of players that can handle the ball fairly well, even if they can't necessarily create their own shot, two or three players at a time would be able to move with the ball in their hands and allow for a lot of ball movement. Then sure. But the Bulls absolutely have nothing close to that.
On this particular team I agree with you, I see the team being amongst the worst in the league offensively.


On the other hand. You're absolutely wrong about him not making his teammates better with his scoring ability. Rose's scoring ability is what causes his teammates to have the highest eFG% in the entire NBA when he passes out of Isolation, which is caused by him having the best FG% of anyone in the league while in an isolation set (This was true as of about 10~ games ago. I have no idea if he still does, either way, there's no way he's fallen very far).
Before I say anything let it be clear that no matter the outcome, this argument about whether another player makes another is trivial, it holds very little barring on a players greatness, that said lets be trivial.

I never said Rose wasnt a gifted scorer or vital to his team but when I ask if he makes his teammates better I mean specifically. What players are you guys seeing that you didnt see elsewhere in their careers? I dont see Boozer playing any better, I highlighted the details in another thread but Rose dwellers ignored it entirely, Boozer is getting less shots in his comfort zone and being asked to create on his own more often because he has to adhere to Rose vs feeding off of Deron.

And yes Rose has the 6th most effective rate in Isolation, hes at his best that way. Sadly the rest of his game, while still good, isnt up to par with the elite. Again this takes me back to my Boozer reference, hes had to adapt alongside a player who doesnt play to his strengths. Thats not making his teammates better, thats making Rose better IMO. And in that role hes not as efficient as those before him.

Anon
04-14-2011, 10:11 AM
How is Rose unanimous MVP buy not unanimous first team NBA?

Doogolas
04-14-2011, 10:41 AM
On this particular team I agree with you, I see the team being amongst the worst in the league offensively.


Before I say anything let it be clear that no matter the outcome, this argument about whether another player makes another is trivial, it holds very little barring on a players greatness, that said lets be trivial.

I never said Rose wasnt a gifted scorer or vital to his team but when I ask if he makes his teammates better I mean specifically. What players are you guys seeing that you didnt see elsewhere in their careers? I dont see Boozer playing any better, I highlighted the details in another thread but Rose dwellers ignored it entirely, Boozer is getting less shots in his comfort zone and being asked to create on his own more often because he has to adhere to Rose vs feeding off of Deron.

And yes Rose has the 6th most effective rate in Isolation, hes at his best that way. Sadly the rest of his game, while still good, isnt up to par with the elite. Again this takes me back to my Boozer reference, hes had to adapt alongside a player who doesnt play to his strengths. Thats not making his teammates better, thats making Rose better IMO. And in that role hes not as efficient as those before him.

Boozer's problems are the system's fault and Boozer just having played far worse this year than in year's passed. He had a foot injury for a very, very long time that even he said hasn't allowed him to be as explosive as he was last year.

That and the fact that for whatever reason Thibs doesn't do P&R with him anywhere near the amount that Deron did it with him is one of the few problems we've had with him.

However, look at Keith Bogans. Look at Luol Deng. Basically 99% of Noah's points come when Rose gives him the ball or misses a layup that Noah runs in behind him to cleanup.

Rose gives guys a shitload of open as hell looks. And, as a team, they knock them down when he does that. Which is why the Bulls have a higher eFG% when Rose passes out of isolation than when anybody else in the league passes out of isolation.

smiddy012
04-14-2011, 12:16 PM
People are really making the argument that Rose doesn't help the individuals games around him? O wait it's just one poster.

Punk
04-14-2011, 12:35 PM
How the hell is Grant Hill not on the All-Defense team?

ttam68
04-14-2011, 12:51 PM
Since when are you guys a "writing staff"?

Bullsfan22
04-14-2011, 01:04 PM
Boozer's problems are the system's fault and Boozer just having played far worse this year than in year's passed. He had a foot injury for a very, very long time that even he said hasn't allowed him to be as explosive as he was last year.

That and the fact that for whatever reason Thibs doesn't do P&R with him anywhere near the amount that Deron did it with him is one of the few problems we've had with him.

However, look at Keith Bogans. Look at Luol Deng. Basically 99% of Noah's points come when Rose gives him the ball or misses a layup that Noah runs in behind him to cleanup.

Rose gives guys a shitload of open as hell looks. And, as a team, they knock them down when he does that. Which is why the Bulls have a higher eFG% when Rose passes out of isolation than when anybody else in the league passes out of isolation.

Exactly, It's amazing how much pick and rolls we run with noah instead of Boozer when they're on the court.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-14-2011, 01:06 PM
Yup, I get your point, and agree with it for the most part. But once you fall out of the top 5-6 teams in the league, it becomes very hard for me to justify that guy as the MVP. Especially if it's a case where the Magic weren't exactly crushed by injury, and imo they do indeed have a number of fairly solid players who a player of Dwight's caliber could indeed carry to more than 55 wins.

In my mind I think he still lacks a competitive aspect to his game where his dominance on the court becomes contagious. A was reading an article that touched on this the other day, and it resonated hugely with my thoughts on Dwight; essentially saying that his constant smiling/joking is all well and good, but it doesn't breed the winning mentality in the group that a personality of a guy like D. Rose/Kobe/Durant/Cp3/Westbrook will.

I've played sports all throughout my life, and when the best player on the team is a goof (no matter how talented/solid he is, or how serious he is come gametime), it's definitely not an ideal circumstance for the teams mind-state going into games.

Long story short - stats and records being the obvious criteria for best player, that's one intangible that I do take into account when considering the "Most Valuable Player" to any one team in (what I consider) a close race like this one.

I have a ton more to say on this concerning how much weight should be given to a player on the top seeded team to a player on the 4th seeded team for example, and how that teams role players/coaches, etc. affect their "importance" (if I really wanted to dork out I think a fun graph could be made using the criteria), but I'm pretty much blathering on at this point.

I'll just leave it as I put in the the initial write up: Rose = MVP and 2nd Team All League. Howard = DPOY and 1st Team All League.

I do agree with what you're saying in regards to Dwight and him being a goof etc. However, I will say this about the Magic: those trades were a disaster imo. Specifically, the Rashard Lewis for Arenas trade. Now while Lewis is nothing special, he at least provided something. Arenas has been a complete bum. Someone provided his PER and WS/48 and they were at replacement levels. Lewis was certainly not that. And I would say the loss of Gortat has made Howard that much more valuable to the Magic.

If you look at it from a "wins lost" stand point (which should be the definition of MVP but isn't), which team would suffer more? I would still say its the Magic, even if it seems like they could've won more games.

But certainly, based on the way the MVP is voted in the past, you guys made the right selection. It's just at what point does the NBA start taking the MVP as the literal meaning rather then "best player on a top 3 team".

Anon
04-14-2011, 01:11 PM
The worst thing about the MVP vote this year is how much I like D-Rose.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-14-2011, 01:13 PM
They want unwaivering obedience, bow down to the might of Derrick Rose or the fanatics will find you. They would be asking for the Round Table to be shut down if they saw what I wrote about the MVP selection and I voted for the kid, by default.

Why? We both know he shouldn't be the MVP based on the literal meaning of the award (most valuable rather then best player on a top 3 team).

ManRam
04-14-2011, 06:02 PM
I don't even know if the literal meaning of MVP is what the letters stand for anymore. Just based on how the award has been awarded, basically forever, it's Rose's. If the award was truly "Most Valuable Player"...MJ would have like 10+, LeBron would have the next few, and the award would be boring...

I was surprised it was unanimous, especially considering some of the guys on the panel, but I for one have conceded it. Dwight's team just hasn't been good enough, and whether that's a good reason to not vote someone MVP, that' just how it works...

Which is why I wish there was more dialog about the award's meaning than there is. Instead of Hollinger just telling us why Rose isn't valuable, I'd love to see him campaign more about how the award's criteria is flawed and inconsistent. Most people understand that Rose isn't better, and didn't have a better individual year than some of the other other candidates, but the problem is what we award the award to.

Chronz
04-14-2011, 11:41 PM
Boozer's problems are the system's fault and Boozer just having played far worse this year than in year's passed. He had a foot injury for a very, very long time that even he said hasn't allowed him to be as explosive as he was last year.
Thats because the "system" revolves around Rose skillset as a scorer. In Utah Boozer was asked to create less on his own, while playing in a motion based offense.

The foot injury has most likely effected him but we've seen Booz injured and hes never struggled like this, I think its a natural decline in his game.


That and the fact that for whatever reason Thibs doesn't do P&R with him anywhere near the amount that Deron did it with him is one of the few problems we've had with him.

This is actually a Myth I dispelled in the post I was alluding to, hes involved more often in the PnR than was the case in Utah, the biggest difference is that in Utah he was rarely asked to create in the post, he got more off the ball feeds, and his efficiency in most areas fell all around.


However, look at Keith Bogans. Look at Luol Deng. Basically 99% of Noah's points come when Rose gives him the ball or misses a layup that Noah runs in behind him to cleanup.

Bogans has played better before though I suppose this would classify as one of his best seasons. Same thing with Deng, the guy was a beast long before Rose showed up. As for Noah, 20% of his offense comes from the offensive glass, still hes a bad mention. We've never seen him on another team so what am I comparing him to?


Rose gives guys a shitload of open as hell looks. And, as a team, they knock them down when he does that. Which is why the Bulls have a higher eFG% when Rose passes out of isolation than when anybody else in the league passes out of isolation.
If only drive and kicking were the sole means to make a player better.

Chronz
04-14-2011, 11:43 PM
People are really making the argument that Rose doesn't help the individuals games around him? O wait it's just one poster.
People actually have proof that he helps the games of others, no wait they just regurgitate tired cliches.

If only just ONE poster could provide any proof that Rose is making his teammates noticeably better. Looking up and down the roster I see guys playing around or beneath their established norms.

Chronz
04-14-2011, 11:45 PM
Why? We both know he shouldn't be the MVP based on the literal meaning of the award (most valuable rather then best player on a top 3 team).
Best player on the best team is finally a factor in his favor. Thats a notable accomplishment thats consistent in my criteria.

Chronz
04-14-2011, 11:48 PM
Exactly, It's amazing how much pick and rolls we run with noah instead of Boozer when they're on the court.

Boozer still gets more fg/a from PnR sets than Noah. The real shocker is how much less efficient Boozer has been in PnR sets this year, how little inside feeds hes gotten. It seems like his job scoring the ball has never been harder.

gotoHcarolina52
04-14-2011, 11:58 PM
:cricket:

Ovratd1up
04-15-2011, 12:01 AM
I don't even know if the literal meaning of MVP is what the letters stand for anymore. Just based on how the award has been awarded, basically forever, it's Rose's. If the award was truly "Most Valuable Player"...MJ would have like 10+, LeBron would have the next few, and the award would be boring...

I was surprised it was unanimous, especially considering some of the guys on the panel, but I for one have conceded it. Dwight's team just hasn't been good enough, and whether that's a good reason to not vote someone MVP, that' just how it works...

Which is why I wish there was more dialog about the award's meaning than there is. Instead of Hollinger just telling us why Rose isn't valuable, I'd love to see him campaign more about how the award's criteria is flawed and inconsistent. Most people understand that Rose isn't better, and didn't have a better individual year than some of the other other candidates, but the problem is what we award the award to.

This sums it up well.

chitownbears89
04-15-2011, 12:08 AM
They want unwaivering obedience, bow down to the might of Derrick Rose or the fanatics will find you. They would be asking for the Round Table to be shut down if they saw what I wrote about the MVP selection and I voted for the kid, by default.

Coward, If you didn't write and vote what you really felt than you're a coward. Maybe you thought it would be cool to be on the round table. Maybe you posted that as a joke. Maybe you really do believe Derrick should be the MVP this season. Whatever your excuse is it doesn't matter. I wish that other Bulls fans didn't care about what other people say about Rose. Its not going to change my perception of him(and that is that he is a great player who is leading a surging team into the playoffs), and its not going to alter Rose's performance. Derrick Rose isn't Santa Claus. He doesn't get his abilities from people believing in him. I just wish my fellow Bulls fans would not get so riled up about some guy's opinion. But in the end who gives a ****.

Chronz
04-15-2011, 12:13 AM
Coward, If you didn't write and vote what you really felt than you're a coward. Maybe you thought it would be cool to be on the round table. Maybe you posted that as a joke. Maybe you really do believe Derrick should be the MVP this season. Whatever your excuse is it doesn't matter. I wish that other Bulls fans didn't care about what other people say about Rose. Its not going to change my perception of him(and that is that he is a great player who is leading a surging team into the playoffs), and its not going to alter Rose's performance. Derrick Rose isn't Santa Claus. He doesn't get his abilities from people believing in him. I just wish my fellow Bulls fans would not get so riled up about some guy's opinion. But in the end who gives a ****.
You came with the thunder

Seriously though the flaws behind the MVP make anyone a contender if the circumstances are right, its not about performance as much as mystique. Rose has it, I have no problem with him winning it when you consider what the award stands for.

Kashmir13579
04-15-2011, 03:31 PM
:cricket:

this is one of the most interesting threads i've read in a while :shrug: