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View Full Version : Dwight Howard vs Chuck Hayes defensively



Clippersfan86
04-12-2011, 09:41 PM
Being debated on ISH wanted to see what you folks thought of it.

I personally feel Hayes is the better ALL AROUND, more fundamentally sound defender who can guard 5 positions.. so should be valued more than a shot blocking interior presence (Dwight).

I use Rodman vs Hakeem as my example. Not that Hayes and Dwight are as good as those counterparts.. but the style of defender. Dwight can't get out there and guard wing players and doesn't do all the dirty work.. and Chuck is never going to block a bunch of shots.

So the question is... does Chuck deserve some votes for DPOY? How did Chuck's defensive impact this season go so unnoticed?

I feel Andrew Bogut and Tony Allen also deserve a lot of respect and some votes. So far Dwight is expected to be undisputed pretty much.

gwrighter
04-12-2011, 09:44 PM
Dwight is the best defender, you are going to be hard pressed to make a case for anybody besides him.

He guards more than just 1 person, he's the best at defending the rim.

nyyfan4life
04-12-2011, 09:48 PM
What Chuck Hayes does each night is incredible because of his size. But even that does not make him better than D-Howard. Howard has led a team filled with mediocre defenders to a top 5 defense year after year. He blocks/alters shot after shot and makes up for a lot of his teammates' mistakes.

Cano4prez
04-12-2011, 09:58 PM
No...

Geargo Wallace
04-12-2011, 09:59 PM
Chuck is a great one on one defender. With that said, Dwight's impact on defense is way more valuable. He really protects the rim against a whole team. Chuck is the kind of guy who can shut down, or at least pester a player and give him a hard time. He's unbelievable for his size. I love how ppl are up on the Chuckwagon so hard since his appreciation thread the other day... I hope ppl aren't just looking for reasons to downgrade Dwight's defense.

Clippersfan86
04-12-2011, 10:03 PM
I guess we have all come to the conclusion that defense is one dimensional. Manute Bol and Mark Eaton>>>>>>> Dennis Rodman! Defensive versatility... exterior defense... and fundamentals.. who needs them. It's all about blocking shots... and altering shots at the rim. Dwight Howard... :clap:

Geargo Wallace
04-12-2011, 10:09 PM
I guess we have all come to the conclusion that defense is one dimensional. Manute Bol and Mark Eaton>>>>>>> Dennis Rodman! Defensive versatility... exterior defense... and fundamentals.. who needs them. It's all about blocking shots... and altering shots at the rim. Dwight Howard... :clap:

woahhhhhhhhhhh Rodman played on some great defensive teams. Jordan and Scottie could hold their own on D. So could his Detroit teammates. Rodman was in a great position to do his own thing on D. Hakeem > Rodman is more like it.
Nobody is saying that Chuck's D is useless, but he's not going to anchor a group of poor defensive players like Dwight does.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 10:13 PM
I guess we have all come to the conclusion that defense is one dimensional. Manute Bol and Mark Eaton>>>>>>> Dennis Rodman! Defensive versatility... exterior defense... and fundamentals.. who needs them. It's all about blocking shots... and altering shots at the rim. Dwight Howard... :clap:

You really didn't make any sense here whatsoever.

Dwight is better than Chuck Hayes in every aspect of defense. There is NOTHING Hayes does better than Dwight on the defensive end.

Clippersfan86
04-12-2011, 10:13 PM
woahhhhhhhhhhh Rodman played on some great defensive teams. Jordan and Scottie could hold their own on D. So could his Detroit teammates. Rodman was in a great position to do his own thing on D. Hakeem > Rodman is more like it.
Nobody is saying that Chuck's D is useless, but he's not going to anchor a group of poor defensive players like Dwight does.

Problem is .... 4 subpar defenders next to Dwight DOES NOT= bad defensively as a UNIT. You have to factor in team chemistry... how well they work together as a UNIT because it's a 5 man sport. Just because Ryan Anderson is a terrible defender individually doesn't mean when working within a unit he cannot be strong defensively or at least adequate. I'm telling you right now Dwight alone is NOT carrying the Magic. Nobody can flat out carry a defense. It takes a team effort.

Clippersfan86
04-12-2011, 10:14 PM
You really didn't make any sense here whatsoever.

Dwight is better than Chuck Hayes in every aspect of defense. There is NOTHING Hayes does better than Dwight on the defensive end.

Chuck Hayes is a better straight man to man defender... as well as a more versatile defender who can guard 4-5 positions so that's not true. When Dwight steps out and shuts down an elite wing player.. let me know.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 10:16 PM
I guess we have all come to the conclusion that defense is one dimensional. Manute Bol and Mark Eaton>>>>>>> Dennis Rodman! Defensive versatility... exterior defense... and fundamentals.. who needs them. It's all about blocking shots... and altering shots at the rim. Dwight Howard... :clap:

IF Chuck Hayes is more valuable on D than Dwight Howard then why is Houston 20th in the league in D as opposed to the Magic's 3rd rank despite have a better compliment of defensive help in Lowry, Scola, Hill, Lee and earlier in the season Battier?

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 10:17 PM
Chuck Hayes is a better straight man to man defender... as well as a more versatile defender who can guard 4-5 positions so that's not true. When Dwight steps out and shuts down an elite wing player.. let me know.

Chuck Hayes is a better individual defender than Dwight. :speechless: I rest my case on this. It makes NO sense debating with you any further on this.

John Walls Era
04-12-2011, 10:21 PM
You really didn't make any sense here whatsoever.

Dwight is better than Chuck Hayes in every aspect of defense. There is NOTHING Hayes does better than Dwight on the defensive end.

Man to man D.

Clippersfan86
04-12-2011, 10:21 PM
IF Chuck Hayes is more valuable on D than Dwight Howard then why is Houston 20th in the league in D as opposed to the Magic's 3rd rank despite have a better compliment of defensive help in Lowry, Scola, Hill, Lee and earlier in the season Battier?

Not fair to judge an INDIVIDUAL based on a TEAM performance. I'm not saying you can't have a major impact individually.. but if you have 4 other guys who don't work well as a unit defensively.. it's no surprise you'll rank poorly when compared to another unit who works well together.

The Magic are built around Dwight. Built to suit his needs and clear the floor defensively at the rim for him. You think it's an accident they put guys like Lewis, Hedo and Anderson around Dwight through his career? They do this so they have an outside shooting 4... who draws his man out of the key so Dwight has more room to roam on both ends of the floor. Basically Dwight is always in position to block shots and no teammates are competing defensively. The team is constructed to Dwight's strengths like weakside shot blocking.

Houston isn't strong defensively as a unit. They have a bunch of soft, undersized guards... Scola who can't defend for sh**. In terms of raw stats Dwight is no doubt has more of an impact. I'm not even flat out saying Hayes is better. I'm just saying people acting like Dwight is the undisputed defensive king is bull*hit.

Dennis Rodman>> Hakeem defensively IMO. Same type of comparison.

Anon
04-12-2011, 10:32 PM
I'm just saying people acting like Dwight is the undisputed defensive king is bull*hit.

If by bull*hit you mean completely accurate than yes.

Htownballa1622
04-12-2011, 10:35 PM
I think what the op means is chuck might be the best man defender.
I agree that chuck's D is definitely unnoticed.

But dwight is the best overall defender.his impact is bigger than chucks to a team.see our rockets defense rather than orlando but with that being said...

If i needed a stop on one person, I might go with chuck. He's less likely to foul also.

If chuck was 6'11, this would be a much different conversation considering he's at best 6'6 but closer to 6'5.

John Walls Era
04-12-2011, 10:35 PM
IF Chuck Hayes is more valuable on D than Dwight Howard then why is Houston 20th in the league in D as opposed to the Magic's 3rd rank despite have a better compliment of defensive help in Lowry, Scola, Hill, Lee and earlier in the season Battier?

Because Kevin Martin is starting. Career DRtg of 111.

Geargo Wallace
04-12-2011, 10:42 PM
I can't believe that this is a discussion.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 10:42 PM
Not fair to judge an INDIVIDUAL based on a TEAM performance. I'm not saying you can't have a major impact individually.. but if you have 4 other guys who don't work well as a unit defensively.. it's no surprise you'll rank poorly when compared to another unit who works well together.

The Magic are built around Dwight. Built to suit his needs and clear the floor defensively at the rim for him. You think it's an accident they put guys like Lewis, Hedo and Anderson around Dwight through his career? They do this so they have an outside shooting 4... who draws his man out of the key so Dwight has more room to roam on both ends of the floor. Basically Dwight is always in position to block shots and no teammates are competing defensively. The team is constructed to Dwight's strengths like weakside shot blocking.

Houston isn't strong defensively as a unit. They have a bunch of soft, undersized guards... Scola who can't defend for sh**. In terms of raw stats Dwight is no doubt has more of an impact. I'm not even flat out saying Hayes is better. I'm just saying people acting like Dwight is the undisputed defensive king is bull*hit.

Dennis Rodman>> Hakeem defensively IMO. Same type of comparison.

Defensive unit?

The only thing the perimeter players on the Magic as asked to do on defense is to lure their man into Dwight's alley so he can do their dirty work. That is where their chemistry comes in. Now replace him with Chuck Hayes do you really mean to tell me that Chuck is going to have that same impact?

You say it's not fair to judge the individual based on their team well, lets swap their teams. Do you think the Magic still remain a top 3 defensive team?

Let's now speak to the value of Chuck Hayes individual defense and how valuable it really is as opposed to Howards overall D. Tell me this. In a league where there is only 1 premier offensive C, isn't help, weak side, PnR etc defense now more valuable than individual D? Isn't it? Chuck Hayes isn't going to do much to stop Derrick Rose, Dwyane Wade, LeBron, Monta Ellis etc but Dwight does. Chuck Hayes "individual" D isn't going to affect both Gasol and Bynum or Gasol and Randolph or Griffin and Kaman but Dwight Howard's sure will.

Dwight Howard holds more overall defensive value than Chuck Hayes. That is a fact. He is an anchor in the middle, he affects the entire game and protects the basket. Chuck Hayes does not.

John Walls Era
04-12-2011, 10:43 PM
I should point out that I think Howard is better defensively... was just making a case for both sides.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 10:44 PM
Because Kevin Martin is starting. Career DRtg of 111.

I thought you were a smarter poster than this. DRtg is a TEAM oriented stat not player. Carlos Boozer's DRtg this season is under 100 but he's still one of the worst defensive PFs in the game. Tell me what good defensive teams has Kevin Martin ever played for?

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 10:46 PM
The only aspect of D that a solid case could be made for Chuck being better than Dwight in is stepping out and guarding those bigs than play the high post and playing better individual D on players who are bigger than him (something Dwight has shown a to have a problem with) other than that there is really no debate here.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 10:49 PM
Dennis Rodman>> Hakeem defensively IMO. Same type of comparison.

What aspect of defensive affects the game more? Individual D or overall D?

Clippersfan86
04-12-2011, 10:50 PM
Swash... I never flat out declared Chuck better. I just think this landslide where guys like Hayes, KG and Tony Allen have 0 votes on a panel isn't cool. It's not this massive gap like it's portrayed IMO.

Clippersfan86
04-12-2011, 10:51 PM
What aspect of defensive affects the game more? Individual D or overall D?

How can we accurate measure who's a more complete defender in this context? How can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Rodman didn't have the same impact as Hakeem defensively? He might of not altered shots at the rim as much.. but he did on the perimeter.

NYCkid12
04-12-2011, 10:53 PM
it should be a landslide .... nobody in the league has the impact on defense that dwight does...I agree chuck is a good defender ...but dwight changes the game defending inside like no other

NYCkid12
04-12-2011, 10:56 PM
also Dwight makes up for a lot of his teammates bad defense...this is especially true this year

Clippersfan86
04-12-2011, 10:59 PM
Why haven't the Magic won a ring if Dwight is clearly the most dominant force in the league by a large margin and the only truly dominant Center? I thought elite Centers win titles?

John Walls Era
04-12-2011, 11:01 PM
I thought you were a smarter poster than this. DRtg is a TEAM oriented stat not player. Carlos Boozer's DRtg this season is under 100 but he's still one of the worst defensive PFs in the game. Tell me what good defensive teams has Kevin Martin ever played for?

Ok I will admit that you're correct. But when you were implying that Houston is a bad defensive team, you have to take into account that Kevin Martin is a terrible defender (which plays a huge role into why Houston is 20th on D). I will agree that Dwight is a better defensive presence, BUT hes not better at defense in EVERY aspect (which is what I wanted to point out initially).

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 11:04 PM
Why haven't the Magic won a ring if Dwight is clearly the most dominant force in the league by a large margin and the only truly dominant Center? I thought elite Centers win titles?

Why didn't Shaquille O'Neal win any rings prior to 00?

Why does Wilt on have 2?

Why didn't Mourning have one in his prime?

Why doesn't Ewing have one?

Why didn't Robinson have one before Timmy?

There is only 1 big man in NBA history to win a ring without a championship calibre supporting cast and that is Hakeem. Don't blame Dwight if he has been used wrongly and his supporting teammates weren't up to par. He is only one man and as YOU stated earlier this is a team game.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 11:06 PM
Ok I will admit that you're correct. But when you were implying that Houston is a bad defensive team, you have to take into account that Kevin Martin is a terrible defender (which plays a huge role into why Houston is 20th on D). I will agree that Dwight is a better defensive presence, BUT hes not better at defense in EVERY aspect (which is what I wanted to point out initially).

Is Kevin Martin THAT much worst than Jameer Nelson (note the PG position is MUCH deeper than the SG) on D?

They still have Courtney Lee and Kyle Lowry two very capable perimeter defenders, they played most of the season with Shane Battier as well. Kevin Martin really is no excuse.

Clippersfan86
04-12-2011, 11:09 PM
Why didn't Shaquille O'Neal win any rings prior to 00?

Why does Wilt on have 2?

Why didn't Mourning have one in his prime?

Why doesn't Ewing have one?

Why didn't Robinson have one before Timmy?

There is only 1 big man in NBA history to win a ring without a championship calibre supporting cast and that is Hakeem. Don't blame Dwight if he has been used wrongly and his supporting teammates weren't up to par. He is only one man and as YOU stated earlier this is a team game.

Dwight had a very good supporting cast most of his career though. Most of the players you listed like Wilt had utter **** teams. The Magic are in the top 5 in cap last I checked. Don't make it sound like Dwight's finals team was utter crap. He had multiple good weapons on both sides of the ball. Can't have it both ways. Either Dwight is hands down the best defender by a huge margin and best big... and should be winning rings... or he's not. If defensive wins championships and Dwight has always had a good surrounding cast.. he should have a ring by now IMO.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 11:12 PM
How can we accurate measure who's a more complete defender in this context? How can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Rodman didn't have the same impact as Hakeem defensively? He might of not altered shots at the rim as much.. but he did on the perimeter.

Again there you go.

Do you know that there is a difference between defender and defense right? A player can be a HORRIBLE defender but still play good defense (eg Manute Bol).

I am asking which is more valuable a player who is solely a GREAT DEFENDER (eg Rodman) or a plays overall defense (eg Bill Russell).

The reason I can prove that Rodman did NOT have as much impact than Hakeem is the simple fact that Rodman worked individually. Hakeem while being an above average defender had a greater defensive overall worth to his teams which is why he could have anchored his team to multiple championships. Someone who's solely an individual defender cannot do that.

Clippersfan86
04-12-2011, 11:15 PM
Again there you go.

Do you know that there is a difference between defender and defense right? A player can be a HORRIBLE defender but still play good defense (eg Manute Bol).

I am asking which is more valuable a player who is solely a GREAT DEFENDER (eg Rodman) or a plays overall defense (eg Bill Russell).

The reason I can prove that Rodman did NOT have as much impact than Hakeem is the simple fact that Rodman worked individually. Hakeem while being an above average defender had a greater defensive overall worth to his teams which is why he could have anchored his team to multiple championships. Someone who's solely an individual defender cannot do that.

You're asking me if a player that is a better off the ball defender as well as a great on ball defender is better right? I have 3 new Hakeem DVD's.. I'll give them a watch this week and get back to you. I've watched Hakeem footage and think Dennis Rodman is a better defender but maybe I'll understand your POV after I see a few more hours of Hakeem.

NYCkid12
04-12-2011, 11:16 PM
Why haven't the Magic won a ring if Dwight is clearly the most dominant force in the league by a large margin and the only truly dominant Center? I thought elite Centers win titles?

Basketball is a team game...his teammates are way too inconsistent

Clippersfan86
04-12-2011, 11:19 PM
Rodman and Hakeem have back to back DPOY's in their prime within 2 years of each other... so I think my argument is more legit than you're making it seem man.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 11:19 PM
Dwight had a very good supporting cast most of his career though. Most of the players you listed like Wilt had utter **** teams. The Magic are in the top 5 in cap last I checked. Don't make it sound like Dwight's finals team was utter crap. He had multiple good weapons on both sides of the ball. Can't have it both ways. Either Dwight is hands down the best defender by a huge margin and best big... and should be winning rings... or he's not. If defensive wins championships and Dwight has always had a good surrounding cast.. he should have a ring by now IMO.

So you are telling me that Dwight Howard who was the most severely misused player in the NBA for the most part of the last 5 seasons has had CHAMPIONSHIP CALIBRE SUPPORTING CASTS? That is what you are telling me?

Look at all the championship teams from the last 20+ seasons. With the exception of Hakeem's Rockets and maybe the Pistons (maybe) they ALL had not only multiple all stars but potential HOFers alongside them in the prime of their career.

Go right ahead. Now compare those roster to Dwight's supporting casts.

NYCkid12
04-12-2011, 11:20 PM
Dwight had a very good supporting cast most of his career though. Most of the players you listed like Wilt had utter **** teams. The Magic are in the top 5 in cap last I checked. Don't make it sound like Dwight's finals team was utter crap. He had multiple good weapons on both sides of the ball. Can't have it both ways. Either Dwight is hands down the best defender by a huge margin and best big... and should be winning rings... or he's not. If defensive wins championships and Dwight has always had a good surrounding cast.. he should have a ring by now IMO.

So if your telling me Hayes is a better defender than why is his team not even in the playoffs??

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 11:22 PM
Rodman and Hakeem have back to back DPOY's in their prime within 2 years of each other... so I think my argument is more legit than you're making it seem man.

Marcus Camby also won a DPOY and he is never ever ever going to be mistaken as being a great defender. You shouldn't use accolades such as those to justify your claim.

Hakeem's overall defensive value to his team was far greater than Rodman's.

Clippersfan86
04-12-2011, 11:22 PM
So if your telling me Hayes is a better defender than why is his team not even in the playoffs??

I said Hayes is the better ALL AROUND as in versatile defender. I never flat out called him better or said he had more of a defensive impact :facepalm:.

Crackadalic
04-12-2011, 11:25 PM
I said Hayes is the better ALL AROUND as in versatile defender. I never flat out called him better or said he had more of a defensive impact :facepalm:.

Thats the thing. Dwight has more impact on the defensive end per possession then anybody in the league and no im not talking about Blocking shots. Kg is a close 2nd in my opinion. Iggy and Tony Allen are better man to man defenders. Also explain to me how Hayes is a good all around defender

Clippersfan86
04-12-2011, 11:25 PM
Marcus Camby also won a DPOY and he is never ever ever going to be mistaken as being a great defender. You shouldn't use accolades such as those to justify your claim.

Hakeem's overall defensive value to his team was far greater than Rodman's.

No... I understand awards are popularity contests BUT.. they also show I'm not in the minority with my opinion that at the very least they were of the same caliber right? Are you serious about Camby not being a great defender? He's definitely a great defender. It's not only his blocking shots it's his all around impact in the paint. He alters so many shots it's not even funny. He's similar to Joaquin Noah. Undersized.. extremely scrappy, versatile and high energy in the paint. Would you call Noah not a great defender as well?

Clippersfan86
04-12-2011, 11:26 PM
Thats the thing. Dwight has more impact on the defensive end per possession then anybody in the league and no im not talking about Blocking shots. Kg is a close 2nd in my opinion. Iggy and Tony Allen are better man to man defenders. Also explain to me how Hayes is a good all around defender

Hayes is a good all around defender because he can guard any position. He can guard your best bigs in the paint.. or step outside and lock up your wing players if he needs to. It's not rate to see him guarding a 2 or a 3... as well as guarding Dwight Howard.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 11:26 PM
Lemme straighten something out Rodman is quite possibly the GOAT individual defender IMO. So I am in no way attempting to short change what he was capable of on D.

NYCkid12
04-12-2011, 11:27 PM
I said Hayes is the better ALL AROUND as in versatile defender. I never flat out called him better or said he had more of a defensive impact :facepalm:.

Hayes is not better ALL AROUND though because if he was he would have the impact dwight does and he dont...So are you trying to say hes more versatile defender b/c he can guard 5 positions you can argue that (which i disagree with also) but to says hes better all around is crazy

Clippersfan86
04-12-2011, 11:28 PM
Lemme straighten something out Rodman is quite possibly the GOAT individual defender IMO. So I am in no way attempting to short change what he was capable of on D.

I understand you just meant Hakeem had more defensive impact on games overall. I'm not trying to say Hayes is "better" in general to everyone.. just that I value his style of defense more.. I guess I just don't like the fact that Dwight will win in a landslide without any great defenders even getting votes.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 11:31 PM
No... I understand awards are popularity contests BUT.. they also show I'm not in the minority with my opinion that at the very least they were of the same caliber right? Are you serious about Camby not being a great defender? He's definitely a great defender. It's not only his blocking shots it's his all around impact in the paint. He alters so many shots it's not even funny. He's similar to Joaquin Noah. Undersized.. extremely scrappy, versatile and high energy in the paint. Would you call Noah not a great defender as well?

Well I watched every single Nugget game I could that season and I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that he won that award for his shot blocking and shot altering not his worth as a defender. Camby's most useful aspect of his man D was his length and lateral quickness was routinely bullied by opposing Cs. He wasn't even the best interior man defender on the Nuggets that season. That would be Kenyon Martin. He is far from what one would consider a DPOY worthy man defender.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 11:34 PM
I understand you just meant Hakeem had more defensive impact on games overall. I'm not trying to say Hayes is "better" in general to everyone.. just that I value his style of defense more.. I guess I just don't like the fact that Dwight will win in a landslide without any great defenders even getting votes.

I fully agree with you. I think guys like Andre Iguodala and Tony Allen have really shown that they deserve some love. I understand what you are saying but you came across of trying to argue that the only aspect of good defense is being a good man defender and in some ways disregarding that their is more to good D than just being an awesome defender.

IMO right now in today's NBA Dwight is unanimously the most valuable defensive player to any team.

Clippersfan86
04-12-2011, 11:34 PM
Well I watched every single Nugget game I could that season and I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that he won that award for his shot blocking and shot altering not his worth as a defender. Camby's most useful aspect of his man D was his length and lateral quickness was routinely bullied by opposing Cs. He wasn't even the best interior man defender on the Nuggets that season. That would be Kenyon Martin. He is far from what one would consider a DPOY worthy man defender.

Not saying he deserved it.. Just saying unfair to say he's not a great defender because of him not deserving it or w/e. Camby was and is a great interior defender. He alters more shots in the paint than most players I've ever watched. His length annoys the hell out of people. He definitely gets bullied by big Centers.. but that doesn't mean he's not a great defender. Yes Kenyon Martin is a better all around defender.

Clippersfan86
04-12-2011, 11:36 PM
I fully agree with you. I think guys like Andre Iguodala and Tony Allen have really shown that they deserve some love. I understand what you are saying but you came across of trying to argue that the only aspect of good defense is being a good man defender and in some ways disregarding that their is more to good D than just being an awesome defender.

IMO right now in today's NBA Dwight is unanimously the most valuable defensive player to any team.

I guess I was being a bit unreasonable. Just want other dudes to get respect.. but I can go about it differently.

NYCkid12
04-12-2011, 11:37 PM
I also do agree Iggy deserves some consideration also

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 11:38 PM
Not saying he deserved it.. Just saying unfair to say he's not a great defender because of him not deserving it or w/e. Camby was and is a great interior defender. He alters more shots in the paint than most players I've ever watched. His length annoys the hell out of people. He definitely gets bullied by big Centers.. but that doesn't mean he's not a great defender. Yes Kenyon Martin is a better all around defender.

Again you are making Dwight's case right here. You are saying the same about Camby that you said wasn't really good D when you were being sarcastic about Bol and Eaton. Camby was not a great individual defender. That was the case I was making. Rodman and the Dream never got bullied in the way Marcus did.

Clippersfan86
04-12-2011, 11:40 PM
Again you are making Dwight's case right here. You are saying the same about Camby that you said wasn't really good D when you were being sarcastic about Bol and Eaton. Camby was not a great individual defender. That was the case I was making. Rodman and the Dream never got bullied in the way Marcus did.

Fair enough. In my defense though I never said Camby was elite or an all time great. I just think he's a great defender.

What?
04-12-2011, 11:58 PM
Is the op infering that Rodman was a better defender then Hakeem:speechless:

DreamShake
04-13-2011, 12:00 AM
Dwight howard is more important than the chuckwagon. I agree that chuck should get some votes and AT LEAST make 2nd team all defense. All he does is lock up his guy in the post and most of the time shut him down. He doesn't guard wing players as you were saying though, occasionally some small forwards.

Swashcuff
04-13-2011, 12:03 AM
Is the op infering that Rodman was a better defender then Hakeem:speechless:

I think most hold that view. Most basketball purists are of the view that Rodman and Russell are the two man defenders in the history of the game. Overall defensively however Hakeem is more valuable.

Clippersfan86
04-13-2011, 12:03 AM
Dwight howard is more important than the chuckwagon. I agree that chuck should get some votes and AT LEAST make 2nd team all defense. All he does is lock up his guy in the post and most of the time shut him down. He doesn't guard wing players as you were saying though, occasionally some small forwards.

SF is a wing to me and I have seen him switch out on 2's and guard them well. Not trying to say Adelman starts him at SG to guard Kobe or anything. Just saying he CAN and HAS gaurded 4 positions.

5ass
04-13-2011, 12:10 AM
why are people saying that howard is a bad one on one defender. thats not true
IMO howard's D is bettter than chuck's

Clippersfan86
04-13-2011, 12:13 AM
why are people saying that howard is a bad one on one defender. thats not true
IMO howard's D is bettter than chuck's

Naw man.. he's a solid-good man defender. Just not his strength or dominant in that department defensively.

gwrighter
04-13-2011, 12:26 AM
Naw man.. he's a solid-good man defender. Just not his strength or dominant in that department defensively.

i commend you for trying to make a case for chuck hayes as a comparable defender but it's not really close man.

The reason why he may not be considered the best 1 on 1 defender is because of the ease in which he picks up fouls. This therefore makes him have a less physical approach to guarding his man. (or be more careful if you will)

If he was allowed to play D like others play on him no one would be able to score on him.

The reason why Dwight never drew any flagrant fouls this season is the same as why he may not appear to be a great 1 on 1 defender.

Shaq used to get the tough whistle and now dwight is getting the same treatment.

He's just too big.

rhino17
04-13-2011, 12:36 AM
Firstly, the Hakeem/Rodman comparison is way off

both hakeem and Rodman were EXCELLENT defenders both on and off the ball and were never disadvantaged due to height

Dwight is fundamentally nowhere close to those 2 guys, Dwight is PURELY a rim protector, he is a terrible one on one defender whereas Rodman and Hakeem had BOTH qualities

Chuck Hayes is by far a better one on one defender than Dwight, Chuck has the quickest defensive hands in the NBA and is stronger than Dwight, no one can back him down, however due to his height, he can be shot over

Ultimately, Chuck is only filling in at center and should not be playing center due to his 6'5 stature, he is a power forward

Chuck is the better defender, but Dwight is the more valuable defender due to his shotblocking and rebounding, you simply cannot expect a 6'5 center to protect the rim

If Chuck Hayes was 5 inches taller, he would be the undisputed defensive juggernaut of the NBA


Dwight should be the 1st team defender and Chuck should be the 2nd team

Clippersfan86
04-13-2011, 12:42 AM
Firstly, the Hakeem/Rodman comparison is way off

both hakeem and Rodman were EXCELLENT defenders both on and off the ball and were never disadvantaged due to height

Dwight is fundamentally nowhere close to those 2 guys, Dwight is PURELY a rim protector, he is a terrible one on one defender whereas Rodman and Hakeem had BOTH qualities

Chuck Hayes is by far a better one on one defender than Dwight, Chuck has the quickest defensive hands in the NBA and is stronger than Dwight, no one can back him down, however due to his height, he can be shot over

Ultimately, Chuck is only filling in at center and should not be playing center due to his 6'5 stature, he is a power forward

Chuck is the better defender, but Dwight is the more valuable defender due to his shotblocking and rebounding, you simply cannot expect a 6'5 center to protect the rim

If Chuck Hayes was 5 inches taller, he would be the undisputed defensive juggernaut of the NBA


Dwight should be the 1st team defender and Chuck should be the 2nd team

:clap: good post though I wouldn't flat out call Dwight a terrible man defender but an average or solid one. Definitely nothing special in that department.

Swashcuff
04-13-2011, 12:43 AM
Firstly, the Hakeem/Rodman comparison is way off

both hakeem and Rodman were EXCELLENT defenders both on and off the ball and were never disadvantaged due to height

Dwight is fundamentally nowhere close to those 2 guys, Dwight is PURELY a rim protector, he is a terrible one on one defender whereas Rodman and Hakeem had BOTH qualities

Chuck Hayes is by far a better one on one defender than Dwight, Chuck has the quickest defensive hands in the NBA and is stronger than Dwight, no one can back him down, however due to his height, he can be shot over

Ultimately, Chuck is only filling in at center and should not be playing center due to his 6'5 stature, he is a power forward

Chuck is the better defender, but Dwight is the more valuable defender due to his shotblocking and rebounding, you simply cannot expect a 6'5 center to protect the rim

If Chuck Hayes was 5 inches taller, he would be the undisputed defensive juggernaut of the NBA


Dwight should be the 1st team defender and Chuck should be the 2nd team

It can be argued that if taller (due to the fact that his centre of gravity will differ) Chuck may not be a good a defender as he currently is.

I am not going to debate anything else with you because you just said Dwight Howard is a terrible one on one defender. That statement alone shows why a poster such as yourself deserves to be no where in this convo.

rhino17
04-13-2011, 12:46 AM
It can be argued that if taller (due to the fact that his centre of gravity will differ) Chuck may not be a good a defender as he currently is.

I am not going to debate anything else with you because you just said Dwight Howard is a terrible one on one defender. That statement alone shows why a poster such as yourself deserves to be no where in this convo.

Chuck would still be just a thick and strong, smart, and have his quick hands, he would be the best in the NBA

Dwight has NEVER shut down a legitimate opposing center in his career, the only one he ever had to face was Yao who would routinely make him look foolish

the fact that he can't defend one on one just hardly shows in todays game because of the complete lack of talent at center today

Swashcuff
04-13-2011, 12:57 AM
Chuck would still be just a thick and strong, smart, and have his quick hands, he would be the best in the NBA

Dwight has NEVER shut down a legitimate opposing center in his career, the only one he ever had to face was Yao who would routinely make him look foolish

the fact that he can't defend one on one just hardly shows in todays game because of the complete lack of talent at center today

THAT Dwight is a totally different player from today Dwight you know.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201011050ORL.html

3-17 for 10 points isn't Brook suppose to be the 2nd best offensive C in the NBA today?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200911130ORL.html

Better yet how about 1-12?

Al Jefferson

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201001010MIN.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200812270MIN.html

Al Horford

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201001300ORL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200911260ATL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200901090ORL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200901070ATL.html

How did Chuck Hayes do against Dwight? 30 points on 11-11 from the field?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201002240HOU.html


So what was that you said about Dwight not being able to hold down good offensive Cs.

If Yao were healthy today I am 100% certain he would not have dominated Dwight in the way he did in the early portion of Dwight's career.

The next thing I'll hear is that those aren't legit opposing Cs and that how Yao is the only legit oposing C right?

rhino17
04-13-2011, 01:06 AM
you are kidding yourself if you think this isnt the absolute weakest group of centers the NBA has ever seen, Lopez and Jefferson are not even all-star level players

Dwight has never had the defensive skill of a Mutombo, Wallace, or Olajuwon and never will, he just is not that type of defender

And again, Chuck is 6'5 and not meant to play center, he is a PF and routinely shuts them down

Swashcuff
04-13-2011, 01:10 AM
you are kidding yourself if you think this isnt the absolute weakest group of centers the NBA has ever seen, Lopez and Jefferson are not even all-star level players

Dwight has never had the defensive skill of a Mutombo, Wallace, or Olajuwon and never will, he just is not that type of defender

And again, Chuck is 6'5 and not meant to play center, he is a PF and routinely shuts them down

So Dwight is at fault because he never played against top quality defensive Cs? You said legitimate opposing C I gave you the guys best guys who he faced in his defensive prime. Should I fault him because he didn't play against a prime Shaq while he too was in his prime? Because that is what you are doing. Then I too could say the same about Yao and the fact that he never played against prime Mourning, Dream, Robinson etc.

So who is to say that Dwight would not fare well against the Cs of the 90s. That is totally subjective.

It has been argued that current Dwight is more valuable than Patrick Ewing was on D and Pat held Hakeem to a lower TS%, eFG%, FG% and PPG than his career averages.

kozelkid
04-13-2011, 05:51 AM
You really didn't make any sense here whatsoever.

Dwight is better than Chuck Hayes in every aspect of defense. There is NOTHING Hayes does better than Dwight on the defensive end.

Don't be so close minded.
Overall as a defender, yes Howard is better. More than anything it's due to Howard's athleticism and length. He is indeed a MUCH better weakside defender and probably the best in the league in that department.

As for man to man defense? Chuck Hayes, along with Kendrick Perkins and probably a few other guys I can't think of atm, can seriously give Howard a run for his money. Chuck Hayes is indeed one of the best man to man defenders if you need him to shut a quality big, especially a back to the post type big. You can definitely make a ccase for Hayes being better than Howard in that department. Howard is good at man to man defense, but not nearly as good as his weakside defense. You are overrating Howard's man to man and severely underrating Hayes' man to man defense.

kozelkid
04-13-2011, 06:00 AM
I think most hold that view. Most basketball purists are of the view that Rodman and Russell are the two man defenders in the history of the game. Overall defensively however Hakeem is more valuable.

Any basketball purist who thinks Rodman is a top 2 defender of all time should be shot.

Don't get me wrong, Rodman was great, but I can give you plenty of better defenders starting with KG, Duncan, Robinson, Olajuwon, Moncreif, Mutombo, Kareem, and Ben Wallace. As a Bulls fan, I love Rodman, but fact of the matter is he couldn't man the paint and continually contest shots at such a high level as the players I mentioned. Similarly to Hayes, for what Rodman did with his size, was truly remarkable. And also one of the greatest rebounders of all time. But he certainly was not a "top 2 defender". No way.

heatking
04-13-2011, 06:59 AM
Must not watch alot of bball if u think hayes is a better defender than howard. Howard defends the PAINT as a whole and is a precense like noone in the league.

geraptor
04-13-2011, 10:16 AM
funny how you discredit howards athleticism just like it wasnt a factor which it definitely is. I mean you can make a case for hayes to be a more skilled and versatile defender in the positions he can guard but saying he has a greater defensive impact:confused:

NYCkid12
04-13-2011, 10:28 AM
Must not watch alot of bball if u think hayes is a better defender than howard. Howard defends the PAINT as a whole and is a precense like noone in the league.

took the words right out of my mouth ....if you believe dwight is in any area defensively worse than Hayes you dont watch enough of his games

Chronz
04-13-2011, 10:28 AM
First of all, at his peak Hakeem was the greatest defender to ever live, like Dwight the 2 automatically guarantee your team will be at least competent on that end. Chuck is an enforcer, he is not an anchor and he cant contribute in the same way. Hes at his best when hes playing alongside of a true anchor like Yao/Dwight but even then hes not at their level.

I love Hayes, he has a unique skill set in this league (in part due to his height) and without him the Rockets would be deadlast defensively, but the same could be said of the Magic without Dwight.

Swashcuff
04-13-2011, 10:45 AM
Any basketball purist who thinks Rodman is a top 2 defender of all time should be shot.

Don't get me wrong, Rodman was great, but I can give you plenty of better defenders starting with KG, Duncan, Robinson, Olajuwon, Moncreif, Mutombo, Kareem, and Ben Wallace. As a Bulls fan, I love Rodman, but fact of the matter is he couldn't man the paint and continually contest shots at such a high level as the players I mentioned. Similarly to Hayes, for what Rodman did with his size, was truly remarkable. And also one of the greatest rebounders of all time. But he certainly was not a "top 2 defender". No way.

In Rodman's days there was always discussions on sports talk radio as to whether he was the GOAT defender. During the early '90s, Rodman/Russell comparisons abounded, and people were saying Rodman was the modern-day Russell. I remember reading and hearing about Rodman being passed over for the All-Star team, and how defense didn't get the attention it should.

There was often chatter of Rodman being arguably GOAT man defender, this was why the "Is Rodman the GDOAT?" was going around in the early '90s. The question was raised and continually discussed because of 1) Rodman's man-to-man defense, and 2) Rodman's defensive versatility. Because Rodman could guard so many types of players man-to-man, people were asking whether he was the greatest defender ever. He even shut down Shaq starting in Shaq's rookie season. It was conceded that Russell was the better player, but the question was whether Rodman was better strictly from a defensive standpoint. And even Boston Globe columnist Bob Ryan jumped on the "Rodman is the GOAT defender" bandwagon.

In all honesty Nate Thurmond is a better defender than those guys you just mentioned. This has been stated by many of his peers and despite all that most came after saying that Rodman was a better individual defender than even him.

Rodman's defensive versatility and mobility as a defender made him by far the most respected defender of his entire generation and those before. If you want to say that TD, KG, Jabbar are better defensive players then I would agree but as far as a defender goes they are not as good as Rodman was in all honesty.

sep11ie
04-13-2011, 11:15 AM
He's a better man on man defender, better at stealing the ball, better at taking charges, thats about all.

Htownballa1622
04-13-2011, 12:29 PM
He's a better man on man defender, better at stealing the ball, better at taking charges, thats about all.

right on point

Dwight has a bigger impact overall, that's why houston needs a big man so Chuck isn't out of position anymore.

If only houston had dwight... :drool: