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View Full Version : Does any player mean more to there team then D.Howard



skinsfan4life80
04-12-2011, 11:17 AM
http://www.playersvoice.com/NBA/a-true-mvp.html

found this article that makes the argument that no team asks more of there star player then the Magic do of Howard..and after reading it i have to agree. Makes some pretty good points.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 11:18 AM
Last season's LeBron James :shrug:

To answer the question seriously. HELL NO!!!

NYK4L
04-12-2011, 11:21 AM
Maybe D. Rose, but who knows.

PhillyFaninLA
04-12-2011, 11:32 AM
The Bulls are playoff team without Rose, the Lakers are a playoff team but not a contender with Kobe. The Magic without Dwight may not be a playoff team, OKC without Durant may not be a playoff team, I think Westbrook is a really good player but gets a lot of pressure taken off by Durant.

haggis
04-12-2011, 11:33 AM
Keith Bogans means more to the Bulls.

Storch
04-12-2011, 11:35 AM
Nash

macc
04-12-2011, 11:50 AM
Great read. I've said alot of the same things for a long time now. Defense isn't "sexy" so people will dismiss it when it comes to MVP talk.

allSUAVE
04-12-2011, 11:53 AM
Nope

macc
04-12-2011, 12:05 PM
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=19413

Another good read.


Matter of fact, Howard ranks in league's top ten in scoring, rebounding, blocked shots and field goal percentage. If Howard maintains his position in these categories he'd be just the tenth player all-time to accomplish the feat joining the likes of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, Bob McAdoo, David Robinson, Bob Lanier, Artis Gilmore, Patrick Ewing and Hakeem Olajuwon.



Plus Rose has been getting his production on19.8 shots per game. Howard in contrast takes only 13.5.

Howard has 64 double-doubles which is tied for best in the league with Minnesota forward Kevin Love.

In comparison, Rose has 23 double-doubles while the Hornets' Chris Paul (32), Nets' Deron Williams (34) and Suns' Steve Nash (41) have more running the point for teams with significantly less talent.


The defending champion Los Angeles Lakers dealt with an early season injury to Andrew Bynum. The Miami HEAT has struggled without Udonis Haslem providing toughness on their interior. Russell Westbrook helped carry Oklahoma City for multiple games while Kevin Durant was nursing injuries. Who hasn't been hurt in Boston's frontcourt? Portland made a run at a 50-win season despite a plethora of ailments impacting their roster. Lastly, Orlando has played the final two months of the season hampered by injuries to various key rotational players.

Injuries are part of the game. Overcoming them isn't unique to only Rose.

ManRam
04-12-2011, 12:08 PM
Not if you factor in how important defense is. I'm sure some people will come in and point out the one game we just played without him and how we hung with Chicago, but that's a tiny sample size...and probably an example of an adrenaline-win (like Cleveland has had a few times this year; a team giving it their all to step up). Take him off this team, and with how inconsistent everyone else is, it's bad news.

He makes a cast of below average defenders into a perennial top 3-5 defense. He's the only post scoring presence we have. He's the only center we have.

The Nash thing is interesting, but I don't buy that. Again, Dwight is great offensively, and even better defensively (better defensively I'd say than any one player is offensively...at least more impacting). Nash literally doesn't contribute at all on one end of the court.

Skizzik
04-12-2011, 12:11 PM
While Howard likely still gets the edge, Dirk at least deserves consideration. Look how awful we look anytime he goes down. Look at our playoff offense, basically every season. Dirk puts up BETTER numbers in the playoffs and our scoring goes down. If we didn't have Dirk, we'd be lucky to be better than the Cavs right now.

S-Dot
04-12-2011, 12:17 PM
Last season's LeBron James :shrug:

To answer the question seriously. HELL NO!!!

Its *their team in the title...just lookin out. And I agree with this. He may not be as important as LBJ was to the Cavs last year, but he's in the same situation where they wouldn't be much without him.

bosox3431
04-12-2011, 12:20 PM
Not if you factor in how important defense is. I'm sure some people will come in and point out the one game we just played without him and how we hung with Chicago, but that's a tiny sample size...and probably an example of an adrenaline-win (like Cleveland has had a few times this year; a team giving it their all to step up). Take him off this team, and with how inconsistent everyone else is, it's bad news.

He makes a cast of below average defenders into a perennial top 3-5 defense. He's the only post scoring presence we have. He's the only center we have.

The Nash thing is interesting, but I don't buy that. Again, Dwight is great offensively, and even better defensively (better defensively I'd say than any one player is offensively...at least more impacting). Nash literally doesn't contribute at all on one end of the court.

But according to one Magic fan on this board, you guys have 5 or 6 players besides Hoawrd that can off for 20+ points on any given night. So if thats the case, shouldnt you still be an ok team without Howard?

Giannis94
04-12-2011, 12:24 PM
Ersan Ilyasova. Cant believe none of you guys have mentioned him

jrm2054
04-12-2011, 12:28 PM
no he is the team

macc
04-12-2011, 12:30 PM
But according to one Magic fan on this board, you guys have 5 or 6 players besides Hoawrd that can off for 20+ points on any given night. So if thats the case, shouldnt you still be an ok team without Howard?



Being able to score in bunches on any given night is not the same as averaging 20+ through an entire season, theres a difference, Savy. It's called "consistancy" and the majority of our team does not have that outside of Dwight Howard.

Cool007
04-12-2011, 12:30 PM
Without Dwight, I still see Magic making playoffs in the East. They have 7 guys who average in double figures and without Dwight, they would keep Gortat and that team would be a playoff team no doubt - they would be around where Knicks are. They would suffer from Defense though.

Without Rose, Bulls can be anywhere from 30 win team to around where Indiana is. Their defense would still be good but they would really struggle to score. They can keep it close because of defense but when it matters in the 4th when they need buckets, they would lose most of those games.

Without Dirk, I see very similar to Bulls. They could win anywhere from 30 games to 40 games. But taht's about it.

Without LeBron, Heat would still win atleast 50 games (they won 47 without Bosh and LeBron last year).

Without Kobe, Lakers would be around 45 wins to 50-wins IMO.

Without Durant, I see Thunder winning around 40-45 games.

jim51990
04-12-2011, 12:31 PM
deron williams
the entire movement and global image of that team is in his hands
as well as how well they play on the court

bosox3431
04-12-2011, 12:36 PM
Being able to score in bunches on any given night is not the same as averaging 20+ through an entire season, theres a difference, Savy. It's called "consistancy" and the majority of our team does not have that outside of Dwight Howard.

Maybe because they rely on Howard so much thats why theyre not consitent. And when you have 5-6 like has been said, theres a good chance a couple of those players are going to go off every night. Of course some nights you wont, but every team has that.

j/m_ets
04-12-2011, 12:42 PM
I know i am going to take heat for this, but i think it could be cp3... If it is not howard.

ManRam
04-12-2011, 12:44 PM
But according to one Magic fan on this board, you guys have 5 or 6 players besides Hoawrd that can off for 20+ points on any given night. So if thats the case, shouldnt you still be an ok team without Howard?

That's perhaps true but most teams can say that. Thing is, they're all incredibly inconsistent and mostly inefficient scorers...and never all have good games together. There's just no consistency. With no post-presence either, and the fact that only Jameer can get into the paint, they'd be so easy to defend.

I mean, Deng, Noah, Boozer, Korver, Gibson all could score 20 points, they just don't always do it.

I don't know...I'm not hugely optimistic about our chances because we just have no consistency. Without Dwight, who is our only consistent player...in addition to the only post scorer, defender and tough player...we wouldn't be good. I'm terrified of losing him. We'd struggle to score, and we'd struggle to defend. Howard means as much to our offense as Rose does, and far more to our defense. Dirk I do think is up there in terms of most valuable, ahead of Kobe, Heat players, Durant etc.

Again, imagine a team defense of Nelson, Richardson, Hedo, Bass, Anderson.

:puke:

Tarheels23
04-12-2011, 12:44 PM
No.... Howard means the most to his team and is the MVP of the league this year.

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 12:46 PM
But according to one Magic fan on this board, you guys have 5 or 6 players besides Hoawrd that can off for 20+ points on any given night. So if thats the case, shouldnt you still be an ok team without Howard?

any 3 point shooting player can go off for 20 points any given night.

compare some of these players to each other

williams/west/gibson
parker/gibson/moon
james/moon/jamison
jamison/varejao/hickson/powe
shaq/big z/varejao

nelson/arenas/duhon
j rich/redick/arenas
hedo/q rich/clark
bass/anderson/clark
dwight/anderson

who has the better line up and depth with him?
nelson and mo is a push. west is a better back up than arenas easily
j rich is better than parker, but parker plays better defense. redick is better than any back up guard they had. jamison is better than bass, varejao was better to what they asked of him than anderson and hickson is way better than clark. dwight is way better than shaq...but james is way better than hedo. i'd say each supporting cast is about as similar as it gets. the main difference was that james always had the ball in his hands and his teammates never got into the game, dwights teammates are in the game. thats the difference between the two teams. it wasn't that lebron had a terrible supporting cast, cuz he had a damn good one..it was the pure fact that lebron always had the ball and everyone was standing around him watching, and then when they were called upon they were ice cold

haggis
04-12-2011, 12:49 PM
wait, what thread is this?

is this the thread where the Magic supporting cast is really good and they can beat anyone?

or

is this the thread where all of DH12's teammates are the worst assembled group of talent ever assembled?

I get confused...

Tarheels23
04-12-2011, 12:54 PM
I know i am going to take heat for this, but i think it could be cp3... If it is not howard.

Paul is definitely top 5 if I were making a list.

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 12:54 PM
Without Dwight, I still see Magic making playoffs in the East. They have 7 guys who average in double figures and without Dwight, they would keep Gortat and that team would be a playoff team no doubt - they would be around where Knicks are. They would suffer from Defense though.

Without Rose, Bulls can be anywhere from 30 win team to around where Indiana is. Their defense would still be good but they would really struggle to score. They can keep it close because of defense but when it matters in the 4th when they need buckets, they would lose most of those games.

Without Dirk, I see very similar to Bulls. They could win anywhere from 30 games to 40 games. But taht's about it.

Without LeBron, Heat would still win atleast 50 games (they won 47 without Bosh and LeBron last year).


Without Kobe, Lakers would be around 45 wins to 50-wins IMO.

Without Durant, I see Thunder winning around 40-45 games.

the bolded area is a total load of bs. rose has the best supporting cast in the NBA. with out rose boozer and deng get more shots between them and they'd easily take the load of what rose scores, and the defense is stellar on that team no thanks to rose.

if orlando didn't have dwight, then there is no one to double down on and the shooters wouldn't be open.

cj watson
bogans
deng
boozer
noah

that line up is way better than

nelson
richardson
hedo
bass
gortat

give me a ****ing break

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 01:00 PM
wait, what thread is this?

is this the thread where the Magic supporting cast is really good and they can beat anyone?

or

is this the thread where all of DH12's teammates are the worst assembled group of talent ever assembled?

I get confused...

who has ever said dwights supporting cast is good?

Double_R
04-12-2011, 01:01 PM
Obviously DRose and Melo, duh

Ezio
04-12-2011, 01:09 PM
While Howard likely still gets the edge, Dirk at least deserves consideration. Look how awful we look anytime he goes down. Look at our playoff offense, basically every season. Dirk puts up BETTER numbers in the playoffs and our scoring goes down. If we didn't have Dirk, we'd be lucky to be better than the Cavs right now.

Dude it's pointless to even mention Dirk to these people. If he was healthy throughout the whole season (miss maybe 2 games) Mavs would be playing for the 1st seed but nope it's all about Rose, Lebron and Howard.

Bookey
04-12-2011, 01:10 PM
Without Dwight, I still see Magic making playoffs in the East. They have 7 guys who average in double figures and without Dwight, they would keep Gortat and that team would be a playoff team no doubt - they would be around where Knicks are. They would suffer from Defense though.

Without Rose, Bulls can be anywhere from 30 win team to around where Indiana is. Their defense would still be good but they would really struggle to score. They can keep it close because of defense but when it matters in the 4th when they need buckets, they would lose most of those games.

Without Dirk, I see very similar to Bulls. They could win anywhere from 30 games to 40 games. But taht's about it.

Without LeBron, Heat would still win atleast 50 games (they won 47 without Bosh and LeBron last year).

Without Kobe, Lakers would be around 45 wins to 50-wins IMO.

Without Durant, I see Thunder winning around 40-45 games.

I agree 100%.

WrongIslander
04-12-2011, 01:11 PM
Dirk definetly deserves consideration but the quality around him is far superior than the Magic has. I mean without D12 what exactly are the Magic?

It's all about Howard in the truest sense of MVP.

I still pick Rose for the award in its current guise though.

Bookey
04-12-2011, 01:17 PM
Dallas also lost Caron Butler when they started slipping, I think some people give Dirk too much credit, he always chokes in the playofffs anyway.

Dwight Howard can't stay in games most of the time, due to foul trouble & technicals. At the end of games he's a liability because he's terrible from the line & has limited offensive ability. However I'll give him the BOD due to his defense.

Lebron is terrible at the end of games, while he has a great closer in D.Wade, who can out play him on any given night, that takes him out of the picture for me.

CP3 is someone who should be mentioned, because without him, I think the Hornets are lucky to win 20 games. He has no talent around him whats so ever, and led his team to the playoffs.

Without Derrick Rose who would take over games late for the Bulls? Keith Bogans??? 60 wins without Boozer & Noah!!! Are you kidding me? People had us 4th place at best in the East, can you say HCA!!!

iggypop123
04-12-2011, 01:19 PM
Their

Bookey
04-12-2011, 01:24 PM
Dwight Howard's teammates play better when he's not there. Ryan Anderson gets his shots. Jammer Nelson gets top kick it out to shooters instead of dumping it down low to an average at best post player. They would miss Howard defensively but would be at playoff team if they had Gortat on the roster. Who would make it over them? the Bucks? the Bobcats, they definitely would be a playoff team.

CB29
04-12-2011, 01:31 PM
derrick rose, steve nash and dirk nowitizki are all equally important to their team if not more

bosox3431
04-12-2011, 01:31 PM
who has ever said dwights supporting cast is good?

It was in another thread, as to why the Magic will beat the Bulls in round 2. Because all there guys are apparently capable of going off for 20 any night(although in this thread they suck and are inconsitent and arent reliable), while the Bulls supoorting cast in the thread was said to be not as good and only have three guys capable of 20+ any night. Magic fans seem to want it both ways.

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 01:39 PM
The Bulls are playoff team without Rose, the Lakers are a playoff team but not a contender with Kobe. The Magic without Dwight may not be a playoff team, OKC without Durant may not be a playoff team, I think Westbrook is a really good player but gets a lot of pressure taken off by Durant.

hahaha the bulls are NOT a playoff team without Rose, clearly you can see from the stats and games. The Magic without Dwight is still a playoff team, sure they lose without him but if you see the numbers they were all close games.

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 01:43 PM
Dwight Howard's teammates play better when he's not there. Ryan Anderson gets his shots. Jammer Nelson gets top kick it out to shooters instead of dumping it down low to an average at best post player. They would miss Howard defensively but would be at playoff team if they had Gortat on the roster. Who would make it over them? the Bucks? the Bobcats, they definitely would be a playoff team.

average at best? yyeeaa you havent been watching Dwight this season have you? name what players in the league right now who are better offensively in the post than Dwight. You cant even think of more than 2 or 3.

raventroll
04-12-2011, 01:57 PM
When did the MVP award become a pat on the back for statistics? Interesting how Howard enthusiasts break out all of these stats, but fail to mention anything about intangibles. How many times has Rose gotten himself suspended this year, or dissappeared in games? Rose is a much better leader than Howard, especially in crunch time. And poor Howard getting all these technicals called on him for complaining about no flagrants. At least he gets fouls called. How many times has Rose gone to the rim, been fouled, and not even gotten a call?

How about reliability? People point out Howard's great FG %, but how many times does the team come away empty handed on possessions or with only 1pt because of his FT %?

Rose is clutch at the end of games, creates opportunities for teammates, is a better leader & has a the best attitude of any NBA player. He doesn't cause drama for his team, talk trash, or embarrass himself. Perhaps these "intangibles" could be why people are voting him MVP, not just because he's a "good story", oh, or because he's led his team to the 2nd best record in the NBA with key starting cast members out with significant injuries.

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 02:01 PM
It was in another thread, as to why the Magic will beat the Bulls in round 2. Because all there guys are apparently capable of going off for 20 any night(although in this thread they suck and are inconsitent and arent reliable), while the Bulls supoorting cast in the thread was said to be not as good and only have three guys capable of 20+ any night. Magic fans seem to want it both ways.

every team has players that can go off for 20 points any night. bulls have rose/korver/deng/boozer/gibson...i mean hell the bulls have two other guys averaging 17 points a game. brewer can go off if he'd get enough PT and shot attempts. orlando has dwight who averages 23, then its jrich whos at 14 (mostly from the suns still) and nelson who's at 13. yea thats compareable. who else in the nba has one player averaging the most points, rebounds, blocks and steals for his team??? i want to hear this...

Baller1
04-12-2011, 02:09 PM
Dwight is by far the most important to his team.

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 02:11 PM
When did the MVP award become a pat on the back for statistics? Interesting how Howard enthusiasts break out all of these stats, but fail to mention anything about intangibles. How many times has Rose gotten himself suspended this year, or dissappeared in games? Rose is a much better leader than Howard, especially in crunch time. And poor Howard getting all these technicals called on him for complaining about no flagrants. At least he gets fouls called. How many times has Rose gone to the rim, been fouled, and not even gotten a call?

How about reliability? People point out Howard's great FG %, but how many times does the team come away empty handed on possessions or with only 1pt because of his FT %?

Rose is clutch at the end of games, creates opportunities for teammates, is a better leader & has a the best attitude of any NBA player. He doesn't cause drama for his team, talk trash, or embarrass himself. Perhaps these "intangibles" could be why people are voting him MVP, not just because he's a "good story", oh, or because he's led his team to the 2nd best record in the NBA with key starting cast members out with significant injuries.

how many times was shaq a go to guy in crunch time? he'd just get fouled and then miss the free throws. same goes for howard. so the guards get the ball in crunch time because they can shoot from outside and shoot a higher % from the FTL. its a stupid comparison to say that. howard played in 77 games this year. he missed 5 games. rose played in 79 games. they both averaged 37 minutes a game...or if you want to get real technical with it, dwight averaged .4 more minutes a game. you say rose creates opportunities for his teammates...wtf do you think howard does? he's doubled and tripled teamed all the time. does that not consist on creating for your teammates? howard doesn't embarrass himself, i really don't know who he talks trash to, he doesn't cause drama for his team...nice "claims" though. he gets hit, slapped, and tackled at least 5-10 times a game...if that happened to rose i bet he'd pull out his "ghetto" side and start swinging as well

skinsfan4life80
04-12-2011, 02:32 PM
Dwight is the only player in the nba who anchors both the offense and the defense.e fact th
The article makes a lot of good points like the fact that he avgs more then 9 points then the second leading scorer on his team and almost 10 rebounds more then his pf

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 02:44 PM
Yes, these people keep talking about other Magic players putting up 20+ pts. Well, even when Dwight is on the floor, they usually do. And the reason hes so important isnt just his scoring ability. Its his defense and size. Hes HUGE he alters practically every shot in the lane and he grabs boards. Get him near the rack with a little room and hes gonna yam it down hard.

The reason SVG wants to give him the ball so often is to get an easy lay in or post move from him. The more you give him the ball in games the better he will become, is SVGs philosophy im guessing.

BUT i still think Rose is the MVP bc he carries that team on his back. Value-wise, he is priceless to the Bulls. Like someone said, he has the intangibles that Dwight doesnt.
ALTHOUGH, i still like Dwight better (for obvious reasons)

KniCks4LiFe
04-12-2011, 02:48 PM
No, plain and simple, he can rape you on the court. Like Holiday found out last night.

http://i52.tinypic.com/jtwdvr.gif

SACNYY
04-12-2011, 03:01 PM
I'd say Durant is just as important on his team

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 03:02 PM
HAHAHAHA you know what he said to Jru as he went up to catch the alley oop? he said "dont jump!" but, Holliday did anyway and now hes on Dwights wall of endless posterizations

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 03:04 PM
Yes, these people keep talking about other Magic players putting up 20+ pts. Well, even when Dwight is on the floor, they usually do. And the reason hes so important isnt just his scoring ability. Its his defense and size. Hes HUGE he alters practically every shot in the lane and he grabs boards. Get him near the rack with a little room and hes gonna yam it down hard.

The reason SVG wants to give him the ball so often is to get an easy lay in or post move from him. The more you give him the ball in games the better he will become, is SVGs philosophy im guessing.

BUT i still think Rose is the MVP bc he carries that team on his back. Value-wise, he is priceless to the Bulls. Like someone said, he has the intangibles that Dwight doesnt.
ALTHOUGH, i still like Dwight better (for obvious reasons)

derek rose doesn't carry his team on his back....

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 03:05 PM
I'd say Durant is just as important on his team

:laugh:

Cool007
04-12-2011, 03:06 PM
every team has players that can go off for 20 points any night. bulls have rose/korver/deng/boozer/gibson...

Guess what? Korver and Gibson score 20 like once a year.
Magic have 7 players who averages double figures and they have like 5 players who shoot 38% or better from 3pt range to space the damn floor for Dwight to operate down low. Not enough help my ***. They build the team around Dwight with Shooters so Dwight can maximize his stuff that he does inside.



who else in the nba has one player averaging the most points, rebounds, blocks and steals for his team??? i want to hear this...

Well Guess what??? Pippen in 1994 was leading the Bulls in about EVERY single freaking categories (Points, Rebounds, Assists, Steals, Blocks, Free Throws, 3PT FGs made, Charges taken/etc) but he was nowhere near top in MVP voting that year.

SACNYY
04-12-2011, 03:08 PM
:laugh:

Without Durant the Thunder would be fighting to be the 8th seed or might not make it at all. The Magic would make the playoffs without Howard.

macc
04-12-2011, 03:14 PM
I actually think Orlando has a good supporting cast. All the players are skilled. They just lack that true #2 scorer, hense the reason a 9ppg drop off from Dwight to Richardson.

abe_froman
04-12-2011, 03:19 PM
howard's carrying of orl has become abit overstated now,it was born out of mvp desires and even though the magics supporting cast has been lackluster this year they have still have alot of proven talent

my pick would be chris paul,you take him off that team does anyone see them winning 20 games?

Bullsfan22
04-12-2011, 03:19 PM
Howard does more for his team than any player in the league but his supporting cast is seriously underrated here in the psd forum.

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 03:21 PM
derek rose doesn't carry his team on his back....

um yes he does. Ive already posted this stat but he is responsible for 40% of the scoring the Bulls achieve. They showed the stat on TV when they were playing the Magic. 40% of the points the Bulls get are from Rose via points and assists. So your telling me thats not carrying the team on your back? I think your just scared that they rely on one guy too much, but if I had Rose, he'd be getting the ball every time anyways. I dont think anyone would not give him the ball the way hes been playing!

Cool007
04-12-2011, 03:24 PM
I actually think Orlando has a good supporting cast. All the players are skilled. They just lack that true #2 scorer, hense the reason a 9ppg drop off from Dwight to Richardson.

That I agree with.

I think Magic need a closer at the end that can get his shot and close the game out. Something that Rose is doing and has gotten so much better at this year thus Bulls winning.

I think magic took a chance on Arenas thinking that eventually he might become that player (or atleast come close to it) that he once was. Atleast help them close the games out.

I guess not. But taht doesn't mean Magic don't have good supporting cast and would be a lottery team without Dwight. They would have kept Gortant and with full time PT, Gortat has been pretty good in Phoenix.

Hawkeye15
04-12-2011, 03:27 PM
Not this season. No team is as dependent on their star player like the Magic are this year. Obviously the last 5 years, it was LeBron, but the Heat could still make the playoffs in the east with just Wade and Bosh.

Its amazing that the Magic have been able to hold onto a high defensive rating after the midseason trade and loss of Gortat last summer. Dwight is so important on that side of the ball, its nearly impossible to measure. And he is also their anchor on the offensive end.

For this season alone, Dwight means the most to his team pretty easily

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2011, 03:29 PM
my pick would be chris paul,you take him off that team does anyone see them winning 20 games?

Yup. Keeping in mind the issues with +/- stats (and there are obviously quite a few), the Hornets offense is about 11 points per possession worse with him off the court. And even though he's a PG (the position that has the smallest effect on defense), they are worse defensively too (1.69 ppp). He's also got a pretty massive lead in adjusted +/-, which when you factor in the very large standard errors of 1 year adjusted +/-, he still comes out among the top 2 in the NBA. He's down to 4th in 2 year adjusted +/- but that's still pretty good.

Howard is up there too. I think one of the reasons his on/off court defensive rating isn't higher is because he had a capable backup for a little while (Gortat), even if it wasn't for very long. Still, that can have a big effect on +/- stats.

For the record though, I would still say Howard is more important to the Magic then Paul to the Hornets because of the loss of Gortat. The Magic backup (not even sure who it is) is nowhere near Howard and the dropoff is enormous- offensively and defensively.

tredigs
04-12-2011, 03:29 PM
Chris Paul means as much to New Orleans (actually slightly less than Dwight now that Gortat is gone), and both fall short of what Lebron meant to Cleveland - but yes, if he were to go down with injury the Magic would be a sub .500 team.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 03:33 PM
Why are people saying that Magic will still be good without Dwight Howard?

Do you guys even watch Magic basketball.

The Magic do TWO things at an Elite Level. Its defense and its 3 point shooting and guess what they are hinged on DWIGHT HOWARD.

Without Dwight the 3 point shooting game is made so much tougher than ever before. Though they'd still have okay shooters they won't be getting the type of quality open looks as they currently do with Dwight drawing so much attention in the middle.

And do we really want to talk about D?

How many players on the Magic outside of Dwight plays good D? The Magic perimeter defenders are thought to guide their man into Dwight Howard's alley. Meaning not attempt to keep them in-front of them or necessarily play hard D but to have Howard do for them what they aren't able to do on defense.

Now tell me without Howard who's going to make up for arguably the two strongest parts of their TEAM game?

Dwight Howard IS the team.

Without Rose the Bulls are definitely a playoff team and don't give me any crap about they won't be because their defense is better than Charlotte's and Milwaukee's of last season and offensively they'd still have more weapons offensively. Without Rose they'd still be a quality team that is even better than my 76ers.

The Bulls have 2 players other than Rose who score more points than the 76ers leading scorer and they also play better D so don't give me that about they wont be able to hold their own offensively. They very well can.

Crackadalic
04-12-2011, 03:38 PM
Why are people saying that Magic will still be good without Dwight Howard?

Do you guys even watch Magic basketball.

The Magic do TWO things at an Elite Level. Its defense and its 3 point shooting and guess what they are hinged on DWIGHT HOWARD.

Without Dwight the 3 point shooting game is made so much tougher than ever before. Though they'd still have okay shooters they won't be getting the type of quality open looks as they currently do with Dwight drawing so much attention in the middle.

And do we really want to talk about D?

How many players on the Magic outside of Dwight plays good D? The Magic perimeter defenders are thought to guide their man into Dwight Howard's alley. Meaning not attempt to keep them in-front of them or necessarily play hard D but to have Howard do for them what they aren't able to do on defense.

Now tell me without Howard who's going to make up for arguably the two strongest parts of their TEAM game?

Dwight Howard IS the team.

Without Rose the Bulls are definitely a playoff team and don't give me any crap about they won't be because their defense is better than Charlotte's and Milwaukee's of last season and offensively they'd still have more weapons offensively. Without Rose they'd still be a quality team that is even better than my 76ers.

The Bulls have 2 players other than Rose who score more points than the 76ers leading scorer and they also play better D so don't give me that about they wont be able to hold their own offensively. They very well can.

This pretty much sums it up.

abe_froman
04-12-2011, 03:44 PM
Why are people saying that Magic will still be good without Dwight Howard?

Do you guys even watch Magic basketball.

The Magic do TWO things at an Elite Level. Its defense and its 3 point shooting and guess what they are hinged on DWIGHT HOWARD.


good? no,good enough to get in the playoffs? i think so.like i said the team has become watch dwight but they've all proven to be good players in the past and just look at sundays game against the bulls ,they played very well without howard.this isnt saying he isnt good(as it will be taken even with me adding that),but much like the bulls alot of the impact may be due to the construct of the team and not due to lack of ability

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 03:44 PM
Chris Paul means as much to New Orleans (actually slightly less than Dwight now that Gortat is gone), and both fall short of what Lebron meant to Cleveland - but yes, if he were to go down with injury the Magic would be a sub .500 team.

Fully agreed. The only player that means more to their team is Chris Paul in all honesty. They'd be no where without Paul.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2011, 03:47 PM
um yes he does. Ive already posted this stat but he is responsible for 40% of the scoring the Bulls achieve. They showed the stat on TV when they were playing the Magic. 40% of the points the Bulls get are from Rose via points and assists. So your telling me thats not carrying the team on your back? I think your just scared that they rely on one guy too much, but if I had Rose, he'd be getting the ball every time anyways. I dont think anyone would not give him the ball the way hes been playing!

Here's the problem with your argument though: the strength of the Bulls team is their DEFENSE. While Rose may account for 40% of their offense, it's only led them to being 12th in offensive efficiency, which while good is obviously not the reason they have 60 wins.

So back to the defense: Rose is a PG, how much do you think he could possibly effect the Bulls defense?

Now I realize +/- stats have many flaws, especially when talking about unadjusted and a 1 year sample, but the Bulls are actually 8 points per possession better when Rose is off the court. While I won't put much stock in that, it says something that his impact on the defensive end isn't on the plus side. I don't think you'd ever catch someone like Howard or Lebron with a negative impact on either side of the ball.

Now I need to edit my post and reiterate that I'm not saying Rose is a bad defender. And I'll also say that his +/- stats are probably very deceiving. There is no way he makes the Bulls 8 ppp better by being off the court. Rather, I was just saying that it does illustrate the relative unimportance of Rose on the defensive side (or more accurately, I would say the PG position). Would the Bulls still have the best defense if Rose was not on the team? I don't see why they wouldn't.

KniCks4LiFe
04-12-2011, 03:47 PM
HAHAHAHA you know what he said to Jru as he went up to catch the alley oop? he said "dont jump!" but, Holliday did anyway and now hes on Dwights wall of endless posterizations

Needed to say "duck!".

http://i55.tinypic.com/2d2hiz9.gif

http://i52.tinypic.com/nfigwj.gif

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 03:49 PM
um yes he does. Ive already posted this stat but he is responsible for 40% of the scoring the Bulls achieve. They showed the stat on TV when they were playing the Magic. 40% of the points the Bulls get are from Rose via points and assists. So your telling me thats not carrying the team on your back? I think your just scared that they rely on one guy too much, but if I had Rose, he'd be getting the ball every time anyways. I dont think anyone would not give him the ball the way hes been playing!

no, i'm telling you that he's a ****ing point guard. watson is a decent point guard too. i bet if he was the starting point guard with boozer and deng as his guy he'd be around at least 25-30 percent of the scoring. so does this mean westbrook carries his team on his back too? cuz durant doesn't average a whole lot of assist but westbrook does and averages a lot of points too. he's probably around 35% of his teams points. its not the point of not getting rose the ball, HES THE POINT GUARD, THE BALL IS ALWAYS IN HIS HANDS. thats like saying oh, the qb carries every team because he is a reason to all the scoring on the offense. well no ****ing ****, he always has the damn ball for every play

my point is, you take rose off that team, they will put another PG there in his place. will he be as good? hell no. but he will still score, and he will still get assist

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 03:51 PM
good? no,good enough to get in the playoffs? i think so.like i said the team has become watch dwight but they've all proven to be good players in the past and just look at sundays game against the bulls ,they played very well without howard.this isnt saying he isnt good(as it will be taken even with me adding that),but much like the bulls alot of the impact may be due to the construct of the team and not due to lack of ability

In Dwight's 7 seasons in the league do you know how many games he has missed? Of course the team would be that way they are fully dependent on him for every single game.

You use ONE game as evidence? Don't you think the players would come out hard for that one game against the best team in the East with their rock sidelined to prove that they can play without him. Do you think they'd continue to be that motivated over the entire course of a season?

They are an okay team on offense and a great team on D. Do you think without Dwight inside that they'd even be decent on D? Do you know who Okay offensive teams and horrid defensive teams rank in the NBA? Well ask the Detroit Pistons because that is the kind of team the Magic will become.

A bunch of players who can get you 20 points but that usually comes 3 teams for the season.

The Magic success is all because of Dwight. Without him they wouldn't be a good defensive team which obviously means they won't be a good team period.

Jewelz0376
04-12-2011, 03:56 PM
No D12 means the most...he's the only reason why the team is a top defensive team...You can put any 4 players around him and they will be good defensively...

I still think though if they didn't have d12 and would've had like Gortat starting in his place they could still maybe make the playoffs as the 8th seed...but the pacers are 7 games under .500 so I don't really know if that's saying anything much

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 03:58 PM
Why are people saying that Magic will still be good without Dwight Howard?

Do you guys even watch Magic basketball.

The Magic do TWO things at an Elite Level. Its defense and its 3 point shooting and guess what they are hinged on DWIGHT HOWARD.

Without Dwight the 3 point shooting game is made so much tougher than ever before. Though they'd still have okay shooters they won't be getting the type of quality open looks as they currently do with Dwight drawing so much attention in the middle.

And do we really want to talk about D?

How many players on the Magic outside of Dwight plays good D? The Magic perimeter defenders are thought to guide their man into Dwight Howard's alley. Meaning not attempt to keep them in-front of them or necessarily play hard D but to have Howard do for them what they aren't able to do on defense.

Now tell me without Howard who's going to make up for arguably the two strongest parts of their TEAM game?

Dwight Howard IS the team.

Without Rose the Bulls are definitely a playoff team and don't give me any crap about they won't be because their defense is better than Charlotte's and Milwaukee's of last season and offensively they'd still have more weapons offensively. Without Rose they'd still be a quality team that is even better than my 76ers.
The Bulls have 2 players other than Rose who score more points than the 76ers leading scorer and they also play better D so don't give me that about they wont be able to hold their own offensively. They very well can.

Yes, obviously more than you bc you dont sound like you know what your talking about and you are definitley not a Magic fan.

Do you not watch people going off picks and driving to the rim? Hedo, Gilbert, Jameer, J-rich, I mean, if you really watch the games you can see that the guy with the ball is the 1st option to score. They dont feed Dwight enough in my opinion. Stan complains about it all the time. so you are just pulling these claims out of thin air.

Ill give you crap about the Bulls being a playoff team without Rose. If you didnt skip to the end you would have seen this post I already wrote... Rose is responsible for 40% of the scoring the Bulls achieve. They showed the stat on TV when they were playing the Magic. 40% of the points the Bulls get are from Rose via points and assists. If you WATCH THE GAME its ridiculous how clear it is to see that Rose is the #1 option every possesion.
Your really gonna tell me the Bulls are a Playoff team without Rose with confidence? It makes you sound ignorant when you say that. Now obviously the Magic arent a contender without Dwight but they would not be as bad as the Bulls would be without Rose.


Better than your 76ers? WOW you have zero fandom. Id be ashamed to have a fan like you.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2011, 03:59 PM
good? no,good enough to get in the playoffs? i think so.like i said the team has become watch dwight but they've all proven to be good players in the past and just look at sundays game against the bulls ,they played very well without howard.this isnt saying he isnt good(as it will be taken even with me adding that),but much like the bulls alot of the impact may be due to the construct of the team and not due to lack of ability

Their defense would become pretty bad without Dwight. I mean just look at their team, other then Dwight, do they even have a decent defender? And considering the Magic are one of the best defensive teams, that alone makes his impact enormous. Take him off the Magic, there's no way they'd make the playoffs. And thats not even taking into account the impact he has on their offense.

I'd give them like 30 wins without Dwight. Their D would be atrocious since they have no defenders on the wings.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 04:00 PM
Bulls fan without Rose you are still a top 3 defensive team in the NBA. You already have 2 players who if given the shot can average close to 20 a game.

Look at the Thunder where everyone said with the loss of Green they are going to feel a real hurt offensively. :confused:

Since the trade they haven't missed a beat on that end of the floor with Ibaka and Harden among others stepping their game up. You guys have seen what CJ Watson was capable of in the single game he started. He surely is NOT going to get anything remotely close to 33 as a starter but he's going to give you a quality 12-14 points (which is his career average per 36 mins) every night.

Stop making everything about Derrick, he is a fantastic player and deserves the league MVP but you guys have a solid supporting cast. A good defense beats a good offense 9 times out of 10 in basketball.

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 04:03 PM
PS its so nice watching you Bulls fan talk about how little of an Impact Rose has on your team. seriously lol. You are sitting there ARGUING AGAINST ROSE'S VALUE! tsk tsk i bet you feel dumb

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2011, 04:05 PM
PS its so nice watching you Bulls fan talk about how little of an Impact Rose has on your team. seriously lol. You are sitting there ARGUING AGAINST ROSE'S VALUE! tsk tsk i bet you feel dumb

Aren't you arguing against Dwight's value? So wouldn't the same apply to you? :eyebrow:

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 04:06 PM
Yes, obviously more than you bc you dont sound like you know what your talking about and you are definitley not a Magic fan.

Do you not watch people going off picks and driving to the rim? Hedo, Gilbert, Jameer, J-rich, I mean, if you really watch the games you can see that the guy with the ball is the 1st option to score. They dont feed Dwight enough in my opinion. Stan complains about it all the time. so you are just pulling these claims out of thin air.

Ill give you crap about the Bulls being a playoff team without Rose. If you didnt skip to the end you would have seen this post I already wrote... Rose is responsible for 40% of the scoring the Bulls achieve. They showed the stat on TV when they were playing the Magic. 40% of the points the Bulls get are from Rose via points and assists. If you WATCH THE GAME its ridiculous how clear it is to see that Rose is the #1 option every possesion.
Your really gonna tell me the Bulls are a Playoff team without Rose with confidence? It makes you sound ignorant when you say that. Now obviously the Magic arent a contender without Dwight but they would not be as bad as the Bulls would be without Rose.


Better than your 76ers? WOW you have zero fandom. Id be ashamed to have a fan like you.

You challenge my fandom?

What in the hell am I seeing here. I am being realistic.They are a better defensive team than us with out without Rose. That's a fact. They have better 1 and 2 options than us without Rose. That is a fact.

You are telling me I don't know what I am talking about.

Tell me this what categories do the magic rank highest in the NBA in?

Tell me please.

For a Magic fan you clearly don't understand your team very well don't you?

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 04:06 PM
Aren't you arguing against Dwight's value? So wouldn't the same apply to you? :eyebrow:

hahahahahahaha

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 04:07 PM
PS its so nice watching you Bulls fan talk about how little of an Impact Rose has on your team. seriously lol. You are sitting there ARGUING AGAINST ROSE'S VALUE! tsk tsk i bet you feel dumb

Where would the Magic be without Dwight since you are such a knowing Magic fan.

Tell us how great would you top 5 D be without him?

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 04:08 PM
no, i'm telling you that he's a ****ing point guard. watson is a decent point guard too. i bet if he was the starting point guard with boozer and deng as his guy he'd be around at least 25-30 percent of the scoring. so does this mean westbrook carries his team on his back too? cuz durant doesn't average a whole lot of assist but westbrook does and averages a lot of points too. he's probably around 35% of his teams points. its not the point of not getting rose the ball, HES THE POINT GUARD, THE BALL IS ALWAYS IN HIS HANDS. thats like saying oh, the qb carries every team because he is a reason to all the scoring on the offense. well no ****ing ****, he always has the damn ball for every play

my point is, you take rose off that team, they will put another PG there in his place. will he be as good? hell no. but he will still score, and he will still get assist

honestly i dont understand what your point is. Yes, of course if you put watson in there for rose, he will get points and assists.

The point i was making is that Rose is a BEAST. I dont know why you are so touchy about it. I just think that his supporting cast is limited bc when plays need to happen, Rose is the one with the ball dominating people. And i dont know why you all are so sensitive when we say that your team is crap without him, bc you DO have him and you ARE the best team in the NBA. Of course the Magic would be garbo without Dwight! but guess what, we DO have Dwight, so im not gonna cry when someone tells me we would suck without him, bc i agree our defense would be pretty damn bad without him.

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 04:13 PM
Aren't you arguing against Dwight's value? So wouldn't the same apply to you? :eyebrow:

Now where did I write that? hmmmm here we go with the assumptions!
Dwights value is ridiculous.
Without him our Defense would be mediocre/bad.
We wouldnt get nearly as much rebounds or 2nd chance points

yes, we would be a 35-40 win team without Dwight.

So no, im not arguing against his value

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 04:20 PM
Yes, obviously more than you bc you dont sound like you know what your talking about and you are definitley not a Magic fan.

Do you not watch people going off picks and driving to the rim? Hedo, Gilbert, Jameer, J-rich, I mean, if you really watch the games you can see that the guy with the ball is the 1st option to score. They dont feed Dwight enough in my opinion. Stan complains about it all the time. so you are just pulling these claims out of thin air.

Ill give you crap about the Bulls being a playoff team without Rose. If you didnt skip to the end you would have seen this post I already wrote... Rose is responsible for 40% of the scoring the Bulls achieve. They showed the stat on TV when they were playing the Magic. 40% of the points the Bulls get are from Rose via points and assists. If you WATCH THE GAME its ridiculous how clear it is to see that Rose is the #1 option every possesion.
Your really gonna tell me the Bulls are a Playoff team without Rose with confidence? It makes you sound ignorant when you say that. Now obviously the Magic arent a contender without Dwight but they would not be as bad as the Bulls would be without Rose.


Better than your 76ers? WOW you have zero fandom. Id be ashamed to have a fan like you.

westbrook accounts for 36.5% of his teams offense. accounting his PPG and his APG and his assists being all 2 pointers. so its more along the lines of 38% or 39%...lebron accounts for 40% of his teams offense and he doesn't exactly carry that team on his back, its pretty equally moved around there. while he does a little more, doesn't mean he carries that team on his back

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2011, 04:20 PM
Now where did I write that? hmmmm here we go with the assumptions!
Dwights value is ridiculous.
Without him our Defense would be mediocre/bad.
We wouldnt get nearly as much rebounds or 2nd chance points

yes, we would be a 35-40 win team without Dwight.

So no, im not arguing against his value

Well, you were saying Rose has more value then Dwight, which I find kind of ironic considering you're a Magic fan. Most fans outside of the Magic and Bulls would acknowledge Dwight is more valuable then Rose.

And I think the Magic would be closer to 30 wins without Dwight, so yeah I think you are underestimating his value. It's not like the Magic offense is anything great. And I suspect without Dwight, the Magic D would be among the worst in the NBA. So an average offense (at best) and a horrible defense? How many games do you really think the Magic would win with that?

As for the Bulls and Rose, I said earlier the reason the Bulls are the best team in the NBA is because of their #1 ranked defense. How much do you think Rose contributes defensively?

I touched upon this earlier but I'll re-post the quote:


Here's the problem with your argument though: the strength of the Bulls team is their DEFENSE. While Rose may account for 40% of their offense, it's only led them to being 12th in offensive efficiency, which while good is obviously not the reason they have 60 wins.

So back to the defense: Rose is a PG, how much do you think he could possibly effect the Bulls defense?

Now I realize +/- stats have many flaws, especially when talking about unadjusted and a 1 year sample, but the Bulls are actually 8 points per possession better when Rose is off the court. While I won't put much stock in that, it says something that his impact on the defensive end isn't on the plus side. I don't think you'd ever catch someone like Howard or Lebron with a negative impact on either side of the ball.

Now I need to edit my post and reiterate that I'm not saying Rose is a bad defender. And I'll also say that his +/- stats are probably very deceiving. There is no way he makes the Bulls 8 ppp better by being off the court. Rather, I was just saying that it does illustrate the relative unimportance of Rose on the defensive side (or more accurately, I would say the PG position). Would the Bulls still have the best defense if Rose was not on the team? I don't see why they wouldn't.

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 04:23 PM
You challenge my fandom?

What in the hell am I seeing here. I am being realistic.They are a better defensive team than us with out without Rose. That's a fact. They have better 1 and 2 options than us without Rose. That is a fact.

You are telling me I don't know what I am talking about.

Tell me this what categories do the magic rank highest in the NBA in?

Tell me please.

For a Magic fan you clearly don't understand your team very well don't you?

Its okay. You think your team would lose to the Bulls even without their best player. THIS is a fact. way to throw your team under the bus.

Top ten in Opponents FG% per game
Top ten in Rebounds per game
Top ten in Points Per Game Differential
Top ten in 3pt %
#1 in 3-pointers made per game

I could go on but I wont. What was the point of me listing these? why did you ask me to? I dont know I think it was just a change of subject bc you realized my original point was right and yours was not.

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 04:29 PM
Its okay. You think your team would lose to the Bulls even without their best player. THIS is a fact. way to throw your team under the bus.

Top ten in Opponents FG% per game
Top ten in Rebounds per game
Top ten in Points Per Game Differential
Top ten in 3pt %
#1 in 3-pointers made per game

I could go on but I wont. What was the point of me listing these? why did you ask me to? I dont know I think it was just a change of subject bc you realized my original point was right and yours was not.

wait are you saying that about orlando?

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2011, 04:31 PM
well you definitley dont seem like one

Well considering he's trying to say Dwight is more valuable then Rose and you're trying to say Rose is more valuable then Dwight, I think you sound more like a Bulls fan and he sounds more like a Magic fan. Thats just the opinion of someone who isn't a Bulls or Magic fan.

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 04:32 PM
Well, you were saying Rose has more value then Dwight, which I find kind of ironic considering you're a Magic fan. Most fans outside of the Magic and Bulls would acknowledge Dwight is more valuable then Rose.

And I think the Magic would be closer to 30 wins without Dwight, so yeah I think you are underestimating his value. It's not like the Magic offense is anything great. And I suspect without Dwight, the Magic D would be among the worst in the NBA. So an average offense (at best) and a horrible defense? How many games do you really think the Magic would win with that?

As for the Bulls and Rose, I said earlier the reason the Bulls are the best team in the NBA is because of their #1 ranked defense. How much do you think Rose contributes defensively?

I touched upon this earlier but I'll re-post the quote:

Well ironically all of ESPN agrees with me that Rose has more Value to his team than Dwight. Im a MAGIC FAN, not a DWIGHT-ONLY fan. I understand his value and i accept it where its at. Im not in denial about anything. so now you look stupid.

Magic offense isnt anything great? with 4 or 5 other guys avging double digit points BESIDES dwight?
again, you are wrong.

I dont care how many games the Magic would win without Dwight bc we DO HAVE DWIGHT. jesus you ppl are arguing against yourselves.

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 04:34 PM
wait are you saying that about orlando?

i was responding to a 76er fan who thinks the Bulls would beat them WITHOUT rose (ridiculous) and then he asked me to list some magic stats this season to prove my fandom bc he has none.

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 04:38 PM
Well considering he's trying to say Dwight is more valuable then Rose and you're trying to say Rose is more valuable then Dwight, I think you sound more like a Bulls fan and he sounds more like a Magic fan. Thats just the opinion of someone who isn't a Bulls or Magic fan.

No he sounds like hes afraid to admit his team wouldnt be as good without Dwight.

I am saying the Bulls would SUCK without Rose.

Now, where in this logic do I look like a Bulls fan?

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 04:40 PM
i was responding to a 76er fan who thinks the Bulls would beat them WITHOUT rose (ridiculous) and then he asked me to list some magic stats this season to prove my fandom bc he has none.

the bulls with out rose is pretty much the 76ers. deng and iggy are both great defenders while iggy is a bit better defender and deng is a bit better offensive player. boozer and brand are a lot alike, the centers are both rebounders and defensive players. the bulls have the coach of the year, and one of the best defensive coaches in the game, that in result gives the edge to the bulls.

and your stats about orlando...ALL are a big thanks to dwight. people doubling down on him leaving the 3 point shot open all game long, they've made more three's than anyone because they've taken more than everyone. they are the best rebounding team because of dwight, whether he's pulling them down, tipping them to another player or three guys fighting dwight for them someone else for orlando actually walks up to the ball and takes it. i'm starting to think maybe you don't watch orlando games :confused:

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 04:40 PM
Its okay. You think your team would lose to the Bulls even without their best player. THIS is a fact. way to throw your team under the bus.

Top ten in Opponents FG% per game
Top ten in Rebounds per game
Top ten in Points Per Game Differential
Top ten in 3pt %
#1 in 3-pointers made per game

I could go on but I wont. What was the point of me listing these? why did you ask me to? I dont know I think it was just a change of subject bc you realized my original point was right and yours was not.

Are you slow?

You just PROVED my point.

Now tell me.

Without Dwight would you guys still be ranked so highly in any of those categories?

I am not throwing my team under any bus dude. What in the hell are you talking about. They are the Best defensive team in the NBA. With two players who are better offensively than any member of our team. What are you talking about? I am being realistic.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2011, 04:41 PM
Well ironically all of ESPN agrees with me that Rose has more Value to his team than Dwight. Im a MAGIC FAN, not a DWIGHT-ONLY fan. I understand his value and i accept it where its at. Im not in denial about anything. so now you look stupid.

Magic offense isnt anything great? with 4 or 5 other guys avging double digit points BESIDES dwight?
again, you are wrong.

I dont care how many games the Magic would win without Dwight bc we DO HAVE DWIGHT. jesus you ppl are arguing against yourselves.

Hundreds of years ago, the majority of the world believed the earth was flat but did that make them right?

In addition, considering the Magic are one of the teams who employ statistical analysts, I'm sure they're well aware of Dwight's value. Something which you are probably not aware of because you are as you said, a Magic fan and not a Dwight fan. In addition, you seem to have no clue about which stats are relevant and which ones aren't.

The Orlando offense is 10th in offensive efficiency and thats WITH Dwight. So without, him, its not that unreasonable to think they'd be an average offense. BTW, if you had the capability to add, you'd realize that 4 or 5 people averaging double digits in points would = around 40-50 points. That doesn't make you a good offense.

Finally, why did you ignore the whole post about Rose, the Bulls and their DEFENSE? Read it again, and address my point about the Bulls still being good defensively without Rose.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 04:41 PM
the bulls with out rose is pretty much the 76ers. deng and iggy are both great defenders while iggy is a bit better defender and deng is a bit better offensive player. boozer and brand are a lot alike, the centers are both rebounders and defensive players. the bulls have the coach of the year, and one of the best defensive coaches in the game, that in result gives the edge to the bulls.

and your stats about orlando...ALL are a big thanks to dwight. people doubling down on him leaving the 3 point shot open all game long, they've made more three's than anyone because they've taken more than everyone. they are the best rebounding team because of dwight, whether he's pulling them down, tipping them to another player or three guys fighting dwight for them someone else for orlando actually walks up to the ball and takes it. i'm starting to think maybe you don't watch orlando games :confused:

:clap:

Quality post.

NYSwagga
04-12-2011, 04:41 PM
sorry to be off topic but how do i edit my sig in user cp?





http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/hatnlvr/Sig-Resized1.jpg

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 04:42 PM
did you not just read the post on how important dwight is to the Magic?

juicer your always roaming these forums lookin for arguments you provide no true value to these forums. Ive never ever seen you agree with anyone on these forums unless it was your idea first.

do you not see that i'm agreeing with baller/the 76ers fan/the patriots fan??? again, can you even look at the computer screen with out your eyes crossing? i'm not sure if you can read or not...

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 04:43 PM
the bulls with out rose is pretty much the 76ers. deng and iggy are both great defenders while iggy is a bit better defender and deng is a bit better offensive player. boozer and brand are a lot alike, the centers are both rebounders and defensive players. the bulls have the coach of the year, and one of the best defensive coaches in the game, that in result gives the edge to the bulls.

and your stats about orlando...ALL are a big thanks to dwight. people doubling down on him leaving the 3 point shot open all game long, they've made more three's than anyone because they've taken more than everyone. they are the best rebounding team because of dwight, whether he's pulling them down, tipping them to another player or three guys fighting dwight for them someone else for orlando actually walks up to the ball and takes it. i'm starting to think maybe you don't watch orlando games :confused:


I agree with all of those things.
Now where is the post I wrote that makes you think I dont watch Magic games?

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 04:45 PM
Are you slow?

You just PROVED my point.

Now tell me.

Without Dwight would you guys still be ranked so highly in any of those categories?

I am not throwing my team under any bus dude. What in the hell are you talking about. They are the Best defensive team in the NBA. With two players who are better offensively than any member of our team. What are you talking about? I am being realistic.

honestly I agree we wouldnt be in most of those categories without dwight.

I posted those rankings bc you asked me to. no other reason.
and I disagree, the 76ers would spank the Bulls if the Bulls didnt have Rose.

Afridi786
04-12-2011, 04:45 PM
I can't really figure out what the point of this thread it. Both guys are elite, now fans are arguing their team sucks more without them??

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 04:45 PM
:clap:

Quality post.

finally i get one....:rolleyes:

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2011, 04:47 PM
i was responding to a 76er fan who thinks the Bulls would beat them WITHOUT rose (ridiculous) and then he asked me to list some magic stats this season to prove my fandom bc he has none.

In regards to Rose:


Here's the problem with your argument though: the strength of the Bulls team is their DEFENSE. While Rose may account for 40% of their offense, it's only led them to being 12th in offensive efficiency, which while good is obviously not the reason they have 60 wins.

So back to the defense: Rose is a PG, how much do you think he could possibly effect the Bulls defense?

Now I realize +/- stats have many flaws, especially when talking about unadjusted and a 1 year sample, but the Bulls are actually 8 points per possession better when Rose is off the court. While I won't put much stock in that, it says something that his impact on the defensive end isn't on the plus side. I don't think you'd ever catch someone like Howard or Lebron with a negative impact on either side of the ball.

Now I need to edit my post and reiterate that I'm not saying Rose is a bad defender. And I'll also say that his +/- stats are probably very deceiving. There is no way he makes the Bulls 8 ppp better by being off the court. Rather, I was just saying that it does illustrate the relative unimportance of Rose on the defensive side (or more accurately, I would say the PG position). Would the Bulls still have the best defense if Rose was not on the team? I don't see why they wouldn't.

haggis
04-12-2011, 04:47 PM
I can't really figure out what the point of this thread it. Both guys are elite, now fans are arguing their team sucks more without them??

yes. standard PSD logic.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 04:48 PM
i was responding to a 76er fan who thinks the Bulls would beat them WITHOUT rose (ridiculous) and then he asked me to list some magic stats this season to prove my fandom bc he has none.

You really are a slow one aren't you?



The Magic do TWO things at an Elite Level. Its defense and its 3 point shooting and guess what they are hinged on DWIGHT HOWARD.


Yes, obviously more than you bc you dont sound like you know what your talking about and you are definitley not a Magic fan.




You are telling me I don't know what I am talking about.

Tell me this what categories do the magic rank highest in the NBA in?

Tell me please.





Top ten in Opponents FG% per game
Top ten in Rebounds per game
Top ten in Points Per Game Differential
Top ten in 3pt %
#1 in 3-pointers made per game

I could go on but I wont.

So tell me do you understand now or do I need to illustrate with pictures for you as well?

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 04:49 PM
Hundreds of years ago, the majority of the world believed the earth was flat but did that make them right?

In addition, considering the Magic are one of the teams who employ statistical analysts, I'm sure they're well aware of Dwight's value. Something which you are probably not aware of because you are as you said, a Magic fan and not a Dwight fan. In addition, you seem to have no clue about which stats are relevant and which ones aren't.

The Orlando offense is 10th in offensive efficiency and thats WITH Dwight. So without, him, its not that unreasonable to think they'd be an average offense. BTW, if you had the capability to add, you'd realize that 4 or 5 people averaging double digits in points would = around 40-50 points. That doesn't make you a good offense.

Finally, why did you ignore the whole post about Rose, the Bulls and their DEFENSE? Read it again, and address my point about the Bulls still being good defensively without Rose.


worst metaphor EVER. How is that related to experts picking the value of a player in a league? you really dropped the ball here buddy.

yes i ignored your quote about his defense bc I was talking about his impact on offense, not defense.

If 4-5 guys average over 10 pts a game, it doesnt mean thats what they score every game. sometimes they score 20+. man you are uneducated.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 04:52 PM
honestly I agree we wouldnt be in most of those categories without dwight.

I posted those rankings bc you asked me to. no other reason.
and I disagree, the 76ers would spank the Bulls if the Bulls didnt have Rose.

Please find me the post where I said they'd beat us. I said they'd be better than us. Like the Heat are better than the Celts though losing 3 out of 4 to them.

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 04:53 PM
You really are a slow one aren't you?





So tell me do you understand now or do I need to illustrate with pictures for you as well?

lololol im actually happy you took all that time to find all those quotes and paste them all. i appreciate your attention.

And no, i dont know the point your trying to make. Let me be clear


Dwight has a huge value to the Magic.
Rose has a huge value to the Bulls.

All I am saying is that without Rose, the Bulls would be worse than if the Magic didnt have dwight.


NO, im not hating on dwight, im showing CONFIDENCE in the other players on the team. Obviously, Dwight is a beast and there is no denying his value.

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 04:57 PM
Please find me the post where I said they'd beat us. I said they'd be better than us. Like the Heat are better than the Celts though losing 3 out of 4 to them.

usually the better team wins. according to logic. its okay, I can disagree with you if I want. You think the Bulls are better than your team with and without Rose.

I think the 76ers are better than the Bulls without Rose.

BUT I think the Magic with Dwight is the best team in the league. argue against it all you want, but thats the way i see it.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2011, 04:58 PM
worst metaphor EVER. How is that related to experts picking the value of a player in a league? you really dropped the ball here buddy.

Because most of those experts are idiots. Most of those experts think points per game, assists per game etc. are all relevant stats when anyone who has a brain knows those stats are all but useless unless they are pace adjusted and minutes adjusted.



yes i ignored your quote about his defense bc I was talking about his impact on offense, not defense.

Right, so his impact (or lack of) on defense doesn't matter? You do realize that Dwight impacts both offense and defense heavily.

I think you ignored the quote because you couldn't comprehend my post. Probably was over your head right?




If 4-5 guys average over 10 pts a game, it doesnt mean thats what they score every game. sometimes they score 20+. man you are uneducated.

And sometimes they'd score 0 then. It's an average. Do you know what an average means? Regardless, that wasn't my main point. They're still 10th in offensive efficiency WITH Dwight. Take him off, how is it unrealistic to expect them to drop to around 15th in offensive efficiency?

Calling me uneducated? lmao. I think its pretty obvious from our posts which one of us is educated and which one of us is uneducated.

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 05:01 PM
honestly I agree we wouldnt be in most of those categories without dwight.

I posted those rankings bc you asked me to. no other reason.
and I disagree, the 76ers would spank the Bulls if the Bulls didnt have Rose.

lets take rose off the bulls. lets take his whopping 25 points and his 20 shots off that team. and his 8 assist.

thats 20 shots a game to be made up. hell if you give 5 more to each deng and boozer...those 10 shots each with their % = out to 9.78 points. now theres still 10 more shots. lets give those all to watson, that fair? i think thats fair. watson's numbers this year are very deceptive for the fact he never really plays, so for that lets go off his career numbers. giving him those shots he makes about 43% of them so about 4 makes a game with about one of them being a 3 pointer. so about 9 points while averaging around 1.5 free throws a game. so coming to right around 10 points. his assists would go up feeding the ball to boozer and deng with them averaging around 22 points a piece, so lets say he averages around 4.5 to 5 assist a game with his minutes jumping up a bit and those two making more shots. so you lose around 5 points a game (with this logic, kinda pointless but i'm bored). so they drop from 98.6 to 93.6. thats a big drop off, but lets take a look at the defense they have. they average 91.3 PPG against them. so they are still outscoring the opposing team...and their defense is actually better with rose off the court...interesting...looks like they would still be an above .500 team with out rose and looks like they could still put up a good fight against the 76ers and by having the better coach, probably winning the game

NYSwagga
04-12-2011, 05:02 PM
lol how are you a patriots redsox and knicks fan?smh...



http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/hatnlvr/Sig-Resized1.jpg

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 05:02 PM
Because most of those experts are idiots. Most of those experts think points per game, assists per game etc. are all relevant stats when anyone who has a brain knows those stats are all but useless unless they are pace adjusted and minutes adjusted.



Right, so his impact (or lack of) on defense doesn't matter? You do realize that Dwight impacts both offense and defense heavily.

I think you ignored the quote because you couldn't comprehend my post. Probably was over your head right?




And sometimes they'd score 0 then. It's an average. Do you know what an average means? Regardless, that wasn't my main point. They're still 10th in offensive efficiency WITH Dwight. Take him off, how is it unrealistic to expect them to drop to around 15th in offensive efficiency?

Calling me uneducated? lmao. I think its pretty obvious from our posts which one of us is educated and which one of us is uneducated.

i think the uneducated one would be the guy saying experts are idiots

hugepatsfan
04-12-2011, 05:03 PM
I don't think there is a player in the NBA that even means as close to as much to their team as Dwight does.

NYSwagga
04-12-2011, 05:03 PM
the magic put up a great fight and almost beat the bulls without howard.Cp3 means more to his team then d wight does



http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/hatnlvr/Sig-Resized1.jpg

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2011, 05:05 PM
i think the uneducated one would be the guy saying experts are idiots

I'm sorry but this is hilarious, you're calling me uneducated because I don't agree with a bunch of "experts" from ESPN? Am I the one who's a useless drone who's just using the opinion of others to form my own opinion? No, I think thats you.

I think one is educated when they CAN THINK FOR THEMSELVES. Which I can but it seems you can't since you need "experts" to form your opinion.

And is there a reason you can't even respond to the content in my posts? Such as the 10th ranked O efficiency of the Magic WITH Dwight and the fact that taking him off would probably result around an average (if that) offense?

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 05:07 PM
lets take rose off the bulls. lets take his whopping 25 points and his 20 shots off that team. and his 8 assist.

thats 20 shots a game to be made up. hell if you give 5 more to each deng and boozer...those 10 shots each with their % = out to 9.78 points. now theres still 10 more shots. lets give those all to watson, that fair? i think thats fair. watson's numbers this year are very deceptive for the fact he never really plays, so for that lets go off his career numbers. giving him those shots he makes about 43% of them so about 4 makes a game with about one of them being a 3 pointer. so about 9 points while averaging around 1.5 free throws a game. so coming to right around 10 points. his assists would go up feeding the ball to boozer and deng with them averaging around 22 points a piece, so lets say he averages around 4.5 to 5 assist a game with his minutes jumping up a bit and those two making more shots. so you lose around 5 points a game (with this logic, kinda pointless but i'm bored). so they drop from 98.6 to 93.6. thats a big drop off, but lets take a look at the defense they have. they average 91.3 PPG against them. so they are still outscoring the opposing team...and their defense is actually better with rose off the court...interesting...looks like they would still be an above .500 team with out rose and looks like they could still put up a good fight against the 76ers and by having the better coach, probably winning the game

You claim to be a Magic Fan and you went THIS MUCH out of your way to argue FOR the Bulls. If your really doing all that to prove me wrong (i dont know which stmnt i made that your trying to disprove), then tell me what I said that is incorrect and why you think so. Its not all about stats, there are intangibles that lay heavy on measuring the value of the player. For instance, dwights presence in the paint, or Rose's quickness.

So your numbers and stats about them being better than the 76ers without Rose are moot points. And even if they were true to the last decimal, it still baffles me that you did so much for this post and not one of those statistics supports the Magic. This is why I believe you are only on here to argue, you arent even thinking about the point your trying to make.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2011, 05:07 PM
lol how are you a patriots redsox and knicks fan?smh...


I'm from RI, so my teams are usually the Boston teams (I guess I could be considered a Bruins fan too). But my dad is from NY and we both used to watch Knicks games together in the 90s when they were good. Thats how I ended up a Knicks fan.

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 05:10 PM
I'm sorry but this is hilarious, you're calling me uneducated because I don't agree with a bunch of "experts" from ESPN? Am I the one who's a useless drone who's just using the opinion of others to form my own opinion? No, I think thats you.

I think one is educated when they CAN THINK FOR THEMSELVES. Which I can but it seems you can't since you need "experts" to form your opinion.

lol your diggin yourself a hole buddy.
i never told you that you couldnt think for yourself.
And i am flattered that your going thru so much to argue for Dwights value. Thank you.
I bet youll get real far in life disagreeing with the experts every time just so you can get off on thinking for yourself.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 05:13 PM
Ok so the vast majority of posters say Dwight is the most valuable to his team and ALL the respected posters in this thread (Manram, Hawkeye, Hugepatsfan etc) also agree to Dwight. Mostly Bulls fans are saying Rose and other than that opinions are scattered.

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 05:18 PM
well im not gonna go saying we would suck without dwight bc there r plenty of times hes in foul trouble or something and hes on the bench and we still win. If there were a mock nba draft Dwight would be the 1st pick every time. no argument about it.

But were talking VALUE TO THEIR TEAM; like "how good they would be without this player".

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 05:18 PM
the magic put up a great fight and almost beat the bulls without howard.Cp3 means more to his team then d wight does



http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/hatnlvr/Sig-Resized1.jpg

CP3 would be one of the only ones more valuable. the magic did play very well against the bulls, and you know what? they shot out of their minds as well. they haven't shot that well all year, and they still LOST. three pointers being drained right an left. 2 players made 4 three pointers. richardson shot 10-14...he has been shooting 3-8 on an average a night missing all his three's. hedo and bass shot terribly, but 16 offensive rebounds sure does help. they played pumped up and out of their minds. to say they would do that more than 10 times a year is not right to say. they lean on dwight for defense, and for offense. they were under what they score for a season, and allowed 8 more points than they do with him...so they played out of their damn minds, still lost, and still didn't live up to what they do WITH dwight

NYSwagga
04-12-2011, 05:19 PM
I'm from RI, so my teams are usually the Boston teams (I guess I could be considered a Bruins fan too). But my dad is from NY and we both used to watch Knicks games together in the 90s when they were good. Thats how I ended up a Knicks fan.

so you dont like the celtics? if dwight wasnt on the magic,arenas richardson and turkoglou would step up and theyd be around .500,take cp3 away from the hornets and you have the 10-11 cavaliers.i know dwight means alot to the magics success but just hop off



http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/hatnlvr/Sig-Resized1.jpg

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 05:20 PM
CP3 would be one of the only ones more valuable. the magic did play very well against the bulls, and you know what? they shot out of their minds as well. they haven't shot that well all year, and they still LOST. three pointers being drained right an left. 2 players made 4 three pointers. richardson shot 10-14...he has been shooting 3-8 on an average a night missing all his three's. hedo and bass shot terribly, but 16 offensive rebounds sure does help. they played pumped up and out of their minds. to say they would do that more than 10 times a year is not right to say. they lean on dwight for defense, and for offense. they were under what they score for a season, and allowed 8 more points than they do with him...so they played out of their damn minds, still lost, and still didn't live up to what they do WITH dwight

are you sure your a magic fan?

NYSwagga
04-12-2011, 05:25 PM
are you sure your a magic fan?

hes a realist.



http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/hatnlvr/Sig-Resized1.jpg

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 05:27 PM
well im not gonna go saying we would suck without dwight bc there r plenty of times hes in foul trouble or something and hes on the bench and we still win. If there were a mock nba draft Dwight would be the 1st pick every time. no argument about it.

But were talking VALUE TO THEIR TEAM; like "how good they would be without this player".

his fouls are down this year compared to the last couple years, he's averaging more minutes then he has in his career, he doesn't miss a lot of time at all. since gortat has been gone, he's fouled out of 3? games i think and one of them was an overtime game on a bs call. he's played more restricted and is getting better for it. orlando was a better team before the trade, much better team. orlando right now, really isn't that good of a team with out dwight. hedo is terrible this year along with the last two years, richardson has been insanely inconsistant since coming over from the suns, arenas is terrible, but so was lewis so thats a draw there. and losing gortat made it so we have no depth at the center position. the team we have now, subtract dwight = lottery pick almost by default. they have NO CENTER. they have NO GO TO PLAYER. they have NO DEFENSIVE PRESSENCE....they have NO team

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 05:27 PM
didnt Chicago shoot the lights out too? they were like .600 from the field...put dwight in there and that goes down. Nothing to worry about, they wont have so many easy buckets next time.

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 05:28 PM
his fouls are down this year compared to the last couple years, he's averaging more minutes then he has in his career, he doesn't miss a lot of time at all. since gortat has been gone, he's fouled out of 3? games i think and one of them was an overtime game on a bs call. he's played more restricted and is getting better for it. orlando was a better team before the trade, much better team. orlando right now, really isn't that good of a team with out dwight. hedo is terrible this year along with the last two years, richardson has been insanely inconsistant since coming over from the suns, arenas is terrible, but so was lewis so thats a draw there. and losing gortat made it so we have no depth at the center position. the team we have now, subtract dwight = lottery pick almost by default. they have NO CENTER. they have NO GO TO PLAYER. they have NO DEFENSIVE PRESSENCE....they have NO team

wwwooowwww you are definitley not a magic fan. You can claim to be but...your really not.

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 05:30 PM
are you sure your a magic fan?


hes a realist.



http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/hatnlvr/Sig-Resized1.jpg

he answered it for me. i have been an orlando fan since penny came here. he was my favorite player, and i have been a fan ever sense. i can be a homer, but i'm not blind. i call it how i see it

finalverse
04-12-2011, 05:30 PM
lol at all these articles praising the Bulls talent. Where were these journalists when the season started? Surely none of them thought the Bulls had talent back then because most of them picked us to finish 4th or 5th in the East. It was always the Magic, Celtics or Heat fighting for the best record in the East (probably cause they all thought these three had the most talent). Bulls were always predicted to be fighting for 4th with the Hawks. Now all of a sudden the Bulls are a talented bunch...lol? I guess some of them just want their names in the news so they try to come up with something different to write about.

MagicHero3
04-12-2011, 05:34 PM
he answered it for me. i have been an orlando fan since penny came here. he was my favorite player, and i have been a fan ever sense. i can be a homer, but i'm not blind. i call it how i see it

thats cool, you can call it how you see it. Im gonna call it how it is. your not a realist your a pessimist. and your definitley not a GOOD magic fan, if you really call yourself one.

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 05:35 PM
didnt Chicago shoot the lights out too? they were like .600 from the field...put dwight in there and that goes down. Nothing to worry about, they wont have so many easy buckets next time.

orlando took 21 more shots in that game. chicago shot out of their mind, but didn't rebound very well at all and ryan anderson and brandon bass were crazy on the offensive glass giving second chance points. orlando made 1 less field goal in that game and 5 more three pointers. chicago was outplayed by a pumped up orlando team, and orlando still lost. if orlando plays like that again with dwight actually playing, they beat chicago by 30. its what orlando has been the last 3 or 4 years, live and die by the three. when orlando makes 10 three pointers in a game they usually win...well yea thats 30 ****ing points right there. they have been a very poor three point shooting team this year, but they are still jacking them up left and right while dwight is fighting for everything down low and cleaning everything up.

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 05:37 PM
lol at all these articles praising the Bulls talent. Where were these journalists when the season started? Surely none of them thought the Bulls had talent back then because most of them picked us to finish 4th or 5th in the East. It was always the Magic, Celtics or Heat fighting for the best record in the East (probably cause they all thought these three had the most talent). Bulls were always predicted to be fighting for 4th with the Hawks. Now all of a sudden the Bulls are a talented bunch...lol? I guess some of them just want their names in the news so they try to come up with something different to write about.

same thing was said for lebron. he had a great supporting cast before those 60 win seasons...then after the season it was the same bs he did it all on his own, his supporting cast was terrible blah blah blah

rapjuicer06
04-12-2011, 05:38 PM
thats cool, you can call it how you see it. Im gonna call it how it is. your not a realist your a pessimist. and your definitley not a GOOD magic fan, if you really call yourself one.

hahahaha ok, you think what you want. with your logic steak is made out of chicken and eggs come from cows

KnicksR4Real
04-12-2011, 05:41 PM
dwight is by far the most valuable player in the league. it is upsetting when people think derrick rose is. without dwight the magic would be worse than the bulls would be without rose. case closed

NYSwagga
04-12-2011, 05:45 PM
in case you haven't noticed,every year the media picks a favorite player,and derrick rose is "IT" this year.the mvp has been chosen since about February



http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/hatnlvr/Sig-Resized1.jpg

OC Knights #11
04-12-2011, 05:46 PM
Chris Paul

Crackadalic
04-12-2011, 05:48 PM
Dwight Howard IS the magics defense. you take him off there basically as bad as the knicks. Their best defenders were mickael pietrus and marcin gortat and they got traded.

NYSwagga
04-12-2011, 05:56 PM
Dwight Howard IS the magics defense. you take him off there basically as bad as the knicks. Their best defenders were mickael pietrus and marcin gortat and they got traded.

sure you a knicks fan?are d is pretty bad but we have improved over the last few games



http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/hatnlvr/Sig-Resized1.jpg

knicks4life33
04-12-2011, 05:57 PM
Darko milicic

NYSwagga
04-12-2011, 06:02 PM
whoa knicks4life33, melos headband is as high as lebrons normally is in that pic,but melos hairline is normal


http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/hatnlvr/Sig-Resized1.jpg

SteveNash
04-12-2011, 06:02 PM
You'd think if Dwight Howard meant so much defensively, he'd post better on/off numbers.

Crackadalic
04-12-2011, 06:06 PM
sure you a knicks fan?are d is pretty bad but we have improved over the last few games



http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/hatnlvr/Sig-Resized1.jpg

Im a open minded basketball fan first, crazy knick homer that lives and breathes orange and blue second. Don't ever question my fandom ight man. Our defense has been better but theres too many times throughout the 7 game win streak that we lapse on defense way to many times. I know its gonna get better come playoff time but i wanna see if they can play most of it throughout the game

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 06:56 PM
Im a open minded basketball fan first, crazy knick homer that lives and breathes orange and blue second. Don't ever question my fandom ight man. Our defense has been better but theres too many times throughout the 7 game win streak that we lapse on defense way to many times. I know its gonna get better come playoff time but i wanna see if they can play most of it throughout the game

I can attest to that. Nothing but quality unbiased posts from you.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2011, 07:05 PM
You'd think if Dwight Howard meant so much defensively, he'd post better on/off numbers.

Because for 25 games, he did have a capable backup in Gortat. That will effect his numbers.

In addition, he's 4th in the NBA in 1 year adjusted +/- which obviously does have a very high standard error, so you have to take it with a grain of salt. But I believe (and I'm not sure) that his statistical +/- and ASPM numbers are right up there in the top 5 (bball ref doesn't update statistical +/- and DSMok's last version of advanced statistical plus minus had him in the top 5 I believe).

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2011, 07:12 PM
so you dont like the celtics? if dwight wasnt on the magic,arenas richardson and turkoglou would step up and theyd be around .500,take cp3 away from the hornets and you have the 10-11 cavaliers.i know dwight means alot to the magics success but just hop off


I'm indifferent to the Celtics. Used to hate them, not as much anymore.

I'd have no problem with someone saying CP3 is more valuable then Dwight. There is evidence to back that up. However to sit there and say the Magic would still be good without Dwight is ridiculous. Their defense would plain suck. None of their perimeter defenders are particularly good (they let Barnes and Pietrus go and they were both decent defenders). Hedo is poor defensively, Richardson is nothing great and Jameer wouldn't be a difference maker defensively even if he wasn't a PG. The rest of team? What other good defensive players do they have?

The Magic rank 3rd in the NBA defensively. I think they would drop down to the bottom 10 at least without Dwight. Thats like a 10 ppp difference for the game. I think it'd be safe to say they'd be significantly worse without Dwight. And thats not even looking at the offensive drop.

NYSwagga
04-12-2011, 07:22 PM
i agree about there being a worser D,but a prime gilbert arenas could take more of a role if dwight werent there.he certainly should be able to do it with him,but it looks as if hes just given up.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-12-2011, 07:24 PM
i agree about there being a worser D,but a prime gilbert arenas could take more of a role if dwight werent there.he certainly should be able to do it with him,but it looks as if hes just given up.

A prime Gilbert Arenas? I don't think he exists anymore. And he might not have given up, he just might be washed up. You can't just assume Arenas would be great if Dwight wasn't there. There's no reason to think that given his level of play this year.

Steelers23_06
04-12-2011, 07:25 PM
i didnt even read the article and quite frankly idc what it has to say. no one player means more to his team then derrick rose. point blank period. and im a heat fan...rest my case.

Bookey
04-12-2011, 07:26 PM
average at best? yyeeaa you havent been watching Dwight this season have you? name what players in the league right now who are better offensively in the post than Dwight. You cant even think of more than 2 or 3.

I watch him struggle against taller guys, like Bynum, & Jason Collins (seriously)


You can't be serious saying Dwight has the best postgame, you want me to name just three I can name at least ten

1.) Bynum
2.) Gasol
3.) Boozer
4.) Z-Bo
5.) Tim Duncan
6.) Aldridge
7.) B.Lopez
8.) Al Horford
9.) Al Jefferson
10.) Elton Brand
11.) Demarcus Cousins

Are you serious?

macc
04-12-2011, 07:36 PM
lol your diggin yourself a hole buddy.
i never told you that you couldnt think for yourself.
And i am flattered that your going thru so much to argue for Dwights value. Thank you.
I bet youll get real far in life disagreeing with the experts every time just so you can get off on thinking for yourself.



No offense, but what makes them an expert? Because they are on TV and on ESPN?

I respect alot of people on this boards opinion just as much as I do as one of these so called "experts" if not more then them. Do they really know more then your avid fan that watches all the games and then comes into a NBA forum "daily" to debate other people for hours on end about every aspect NBA related.

I don't see many "experts" on tv debating advanced stats such as per, ts, usg%.....ect.

All they have is an "opinion" like everyone else does.

I've just never understood why people put so much stock into what people say on ESPN when they KNOW they are part of the system thats built for "entertainment" not NBA knowledge.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 07:37 PM
I watch him struggle against taller guys, like Bynum, & Jason Collins (seriously)


You can't be serious saying Dwight has the best postgame, you want me to name just three I can name at least ten

1.) Bynum
2.) Gasol
3.) Boozer
4.) Z-Bo
5.) Tim Duncan
6.) Aldridge
7.) B.Lopez
8.) Al Horford
9.) Al Jefferson
10.) Elton Brand
11.) Demarcus Cousins

Are you serious?

When someone doesn't watch basketball this is the kind of stuff they say. The only player there that has a better low post game than Dwight is Andrew Bynum and thus far this season he hasn't shown it as much as we expected.

Steelers23_06
04-12-2011, 07:44 PM
When someone doesn't watch basketball this is the kind of stuff they say. The only player there that has a better low post game than Dwight is Andrew Bynum and thus far this season he hasn't shown it as much as we expected.

idk about everyone that he mentioned but more then bynum. dwight doesnt really have a good post game hes just more physically equipped then the players he plays against. this is a weak league when it comes to the C position. 15 years ago dwight would have been an average big that would have got bullied. players like shaq hakeem ewing and rodman wouldnt have let him just do what he does now. if he had a solid post game he would average 30+ in todays league and i dont think anyone can deny that. shaq qould average 35-40 in todays league in his prime. who would be able to stop shaq?!?

Steelers23_06
04-12-2011, 07:46 PM
I watch him struggle against taller guys, like Bynum, & Jason Collins (seriously)


You can't be serious saying Dwight has the best postgame, you want me to name just three I can name at least ten

1.) Bynum
2.) Gasol
3.) Boozer
4.) Z-Bo
5.) Tim Duncan
6.) Aldridge
7.) B.Lopez
8.) Al Horford
9.) Al Jefferson
10.) Elton Brand
11.) Demarcus Cousins

Are you serious?

all them do have a better post. add KG and thats 5 players that have a better post game.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 07:51 PM
idk about everyone that he mentioned but more then bynum. dwight doesnt really have a good post game hes just more physically equipped then the players he plays against. this is a weak league when it comes to the C position. 15 years ago dwight would have been an average big that would have got bullied. players like shaq hakeem ewing and rodman wouldnt have let him just do what he does now. if he had a solid post game he would average 30+ in todays league and i dont think anyone can deny that. shaq qould average 35-40 in todays league in his prime. who would be able to stop shaq?!?

The refs

And realized I stipulated low post and not post. Elton Brand is a fantastic high post player, same as Zach Randolph, Tim Duncan and Lamarcus Aldridge but when its time to go down inside in the low post Dwight Howard still has a better drop step to baseline and a dribble by for the layup, a better base line bank shot, MUCH improved footwork, a refined and now effective hook shot and is much more skilled with his up fake moves.

There is a difference between the low, medium and high post and Dwight Howard plays the low most of the other players he mentioned don't.

Bookey
04-12-2011, 07:51 PM
When someone doesn't watch basketball this is the kind of stuff they say. The only player there that has a better low post game than Dwight is Andrew Bynum and thus far this season he hasn't shown it as much as we expected.

Are you serious his post game isn't great at all, he is in his 7th year I believe and is just now becoming decent, everybody I name has a better post game than Dwight Howard, he only has that ugly hook shot.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 07:58 PM
Are you serious his post game isn't great at all, he is in his 7th year I believe and is just now becoming decent, everybody I name has a better post game than Dwight Howard, he only has that ugly hook shot.

That "ugly" hook shot has developed and he is hitting it at a MUCH higher rate than ever in his career.

Tell me how many of those players not named Andrew Bynum plays the low post as much as Dwight.

Dwight Howard plays the low post more than anyone in today's NBA he almost never plays the high post like 9 of the other players you just mentioned.

MacFitz92
04-12-2011, 07:58 PM
When someone doesn't watch basketball this is the kind of stuff they say. The only player there that has a better low post game than Dwight is Andrew Bynum and thus far this season he hasn't shown it as much as we expected.

Completely disagree. Dwight's so strong and athletic but his offensive "skill" isn't as good as a lot of those guys.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 07:59 PM
all them do have a better post. add KG and thats 5 players that have a better post game.

And yet still Kevin Garnett himself will tell you that one of his biggest problems on offense throughout his career is the fact that he never played the post effectively enough. Instead settled for jumpers which he made at a high %. KG almost never played the low post.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 08:02 PM
Completely disagree. Dwight's so strong and athletic but his offensive "skill" isn't as good as a lot of those guys.

So you are telling me that those guys play the low post better than Dwight Howard?

I fully agree that he may not be as skilled or complete or polished on offense and the others but when it comes to playing the low post and effectively using their skill set is there any better?

The biggest difference between Dwight and all good offensive low post bigs is that they for the most part had a go to move. Dwight goes to whatever feels right at the moment. That doesn't mean that he doesn't have an effective and varied low post game.

MacFitz92
04-12-2011, 08:04 PM
There is no way that someone could make an argument that Dwight Howard has better low post moves than Al Jefferson.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 08:16 PM
There is no way that someone could make an argument that Dwight Howard has better low post moves than Al Jefferson.

This season Dwight has certainly gained considerable ground on Al. While unlike Dwight and Bynum, Al is more finesse and touch player Dwight has started using his quickness and deceptiveness quite well to his advantage.

I must admit however that I jumped the gun on stating Bynum solely because you are indeed correct but Al does have a better low post game than Dwight. I completely overlooked Jefferson there for a moment.

Young and Stupid
04-12-2011, 08:18 PM
Gonna have to disagree Swash.

I'd argue that Andrew Bynum, Al Jefferson, Pau Gasol, LaMarcus Aldridge, Tim Duncan and Brook Lopez all have better post-games than Dwight Howard. Now, if we're going to differentiate low-post game from all-around post game (the ability to operate and pass out of the high-post as well as down by the block) then you might have a case.

Dwight Howard is arguably the best player in the NBA, but I'm not sure that it's fair to say that he has the second-best post-game in the league.

DoJoTheSlasher
04-12-2011, 08:42 PM
Arguably Dirk Nowitzki... for the past 13 years.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 09:52 PM
Gonna have to disagree Swash.

I'd argue that Andrew Bynum, Al Jefferson, Pau Gasol, LaMarcus Aldridge, Tim Duncan and Brook Lopez all have better post-games than Dwight Howard. Now, if we're going to differentiate low-post game from all-around post game (the ability to operate and pass out of the high-post as well as down by the block) then you might have a case.

Dwight Howard is arguably the best player in the NBA, but I'm not sure that it's fair to say that he has the second-best post-game in the league.

That was the entire point I was debating bro. There is no doubt TD, Pau, Aldridge etc work the high to mid post more effectively than Dwight. I was talking about the low post.

Swashcuff
04-13-2011, 01:42 AM
To those that don't realize how well Dwight has developed his offensive repertoire take this into consideration.

Look at his shot selection from last season http://www.82games.com/0910/09ORL12.HTM compared to this season http://www.82games.com/1011/10ORL18.HTM. On "Jumps" Howard has went from 25% to 50%. 50% is comparable to any big man.

Who are some skilled big men? Duncan or Garnett. 02-03 MVP Tim Duncan only shot 41% on "jumps" and 03-04 MVP Garnett shot the 45% on jumps.

So what do does Dwight still not have a more polished offensive arsenal?

He has shown great touch, watching him consistently using an 11- to 13-foot banker on the left side this year and seeing him improve his touch on hooks with both hands, occasionally stepping out as far as 19 feet to take a jumper, only shows that he has developed his touch just fine.

He is getting there offensively. May not be completely polished but don't underrate his offensive skillset.

JasonJohnHorn
04-13-2011, 10:15 AM
Dight Howard is the anchor of the Magic, there is no doubt about that. Without him, they would be a lottery team. With a different center of a lesser calibre (Dalembert, or Beirdrins) they may make the playoffs.

The Heat though, are a LOTTERY team without James. You put a mid-level SF in his place, like Harrington, or Beasley, and that team is in the duldrums.

I think the same can be said of Chi-town and Rose. If they didnt have Rose, they'd be a lottery team. If they had a mid-level PG replacing him, I dont think they'd be able to pull off a playoff spot.

As for the rest of the top tier players, Boston is deep, so take out any one player and they are still a plyoff team, same can be said for LA and the Spurs and maybe even the Mavs without Dirk (they are a deep team).

So James, Howard and Rose I think are the players who are most imporant to their teams. If is hard to quantify, but I think those three guys are equally important to their resepctive teams.

JRisdabest
04-13-2011, 10:25 AM
blake griffin

Steelers23_06
04-13-2011, 10:38 AM
Dight Howard is the anchor of the Magic, there is no doubt about that. Without him, they would be a lottery team. With a different center of a lesser calibre (Dalembert, or Beirdrins) they may make the playoffs.

The Heat though, are a LOTTERY team without James. You put a mid-level SF in his place, like Harrington, or Beasley, and that team is in the duldrums.

I think the same can be said of Chi-town and Rose. If they didnt have Rose, they'd be a lottery team. If they had a mid-level PG replacing him, I dont think they'd be able to pull off a playoff spot.

As for the rest of the top tier players, Boston is deep, so take out any one player and they are still a plyoff team, same can be said for LA and the Spurs and maybe even the Mavs without Dirk (they are a deep team).

So James, Howard and Rose I think are the players who are most imporant to their teams. If is hard to quantify, but I think those three guys are equally important to their resepctive teams.

they would be a playoff team. wade and bosh on the same team is still dangerous. they were a playoff team last year without bosh and bron. bron is hands down the most important player to the heat but not more the dwight and rose. now if we asked this last year its lebron and then miles back would be durant but a season changes a lot.

rapjuicer06
04-13-2011, 10:57 AM
Dight Howard is the anchor of the Magic, there is no doubt about that. Without him, they would be a lottery team. With a different center of a lesser calibre (Dalembert, or Beirdrins) they may make the playoffs.

The Heat though, are a LOTTERY team without James. You put a mid-level SF in his place, like Harrington, or Beasley, and that team is in the duldrums.

I think the same can be said of Chi-town and Rose. If they didnt have Rose, they'd be a lottery team. If they had a mid-level PG replacing him, I dont think they'd be able to pull off a playoff spot.

As for the rest of the top tier players, Boston is deep, so take out any one player and they are still a plyoff team, same can be said for LA and the Spurs and maybe even the Mavs without Dirk (they are a deep team).

So James, Howard and Rose I think are the players who are most imporant to their teams. If is hard to quantify, but I think those three guys are equally important to their resepctive teams.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA thats about the funniest thing i've ever heard. with out james the heat my have posted a better ****ing record. hahahaha bosh would have put up his normal 24 points a game and wade woulda been right around 30 points a game. james jones would be a very very nice role player for the heat in that starting line up, hell, mike miller would be starting as well. thats about the dumbest thing i've heard anyone say. i honestly thought you were being sarcastic at first, but you didn't put anything with it.

how can you say that orlando with an average center is a playoff team, but the bulls with out rose and put an average pg with them, and they aren't...thats total bull ****. they still have boozer and deng. throw in lets say average pg hmmm felton or nelson are both average point guards...that team is still a playoff team, no doubt about it. rose gets 25 points a game, nelson or felton could fetch about 14-16 a game and average about 6-7 assist. so not a huge drop off in the assist department...yea bulls would still be a 5 or 6 seed. howard being switched out with dalembert takes 6 rebounds a game off and 14 points. what the **** are you smoking?

MGB
04-13-2011, 11:16 AM
The Bulls are playoff team without Rose, the Lakers are a playoff team but not a contender with Kobe. The Magic without Dwight may not be a playoff team, OKC without Durant may not be a playoff team, I think Westbrook is a really good player but gets a lot of pressure taken off by Durant.

I don't know how much of the Bulls you've watched this season, but when Rose is out of the game, the team struggles mightily to score.

Double_R
04-13-2011, 11:35 AM
I don't know how much of the Bulls you've watched this season, but when Rose is out of the game, the team struggles mightily to score.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-110331&addata=2009_insdr_mod_nba_xxx_xxx&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3dholling er_john%26page%3dPERDiem-110331%26addata%3d2009_insdr_mod_nba_xxx_xxx

MagicHero3
04-13-2011, 04:33 PM
I watch him struggle against taller guys, like Bynum, & Jason Collins (seriously)


You can't be serious saying Dwight has the best postgame, you want me to name just three I can name at least ten

1.) Bynum
2.) Gasol
3.) Boozer
4.) Z-Bo
5.) Tim Duncan
6.) Aldridge
7.) B.Lopez
8.) Al Horford
9.) Al Jefferson
10.) Elton Brand
11.) Demarcus Cousins

Are you serious?


well Dwight is averaging more points per game than any PF or C besides Amar'e. So yes, im serious.
Hes also got the best FG% besides Nene

we know hes not getting those pts from free throws ;)

MagicHero3
04-13-2011, 04:37 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA thats about the funniest thing i've ever heard. with out james the heat my have posted a better ****ing record. hahahaha bosh would have put up his normal 24 points a game and wade woulda been right around 30 points a game. james jones would be a very very nice role player for the heat in that starting line up, hell, mike miller would be starting as well. thats about the dumbest thing i've heard anyone say. i honestly thought you were being sarcastic at first, but you didn't put anything with it.

how can you say that orlando with an average center is a playoff team, but the bulls with out rose and put an average pg with them, and they aren't...thats total bull ****. they still have boozer and deng. throw in lets say average pg hmmm felton or nelson are both average point guards...that team is still a playoff team, no doubt about it. rose gets 25 points a game, nelson or felton could fetch about 14-16 a game and average about 6-7 assist. so not a huge drop off in the assist department...yea bulls would still be a 5 or 6 seed. howard being switched out with dalembert takes 6 rebounds a game off and 14 points. what the **** are you smoking?


take it easy on the guy...I dont think many ppl would agree that the Heat would have a better record without Lebron.

Swashcuff
04-13-2011, 04:37 PM
well Dwight is averaging more points per game than any PF or C besides Amar'e. So yes, im serious.
Hes also got the best FG% besides Nene

we know hes not getting those pts from free throws ;)

If that is your argument I could see why you aren't anywhere near being an expert on Dwight.

MagicHero3
04-13-2011, 04:41 PM
If that is your argument I could see why you aren't anywhere near being an expert on Dwight.

considering dwight only scores right under the basket or "in the post" besides his newly-found half-decent bankshot, I think your just baiting and I choose to ignore your opinion here on out.

MagicHero3
04-13-2011, 04:45 PM
wait your the 76er fan who thinks the Bulls are still better than you even without Rose! i remember you! your opinion already doesnt matter.

sep11ie
04-13-2011, 04:45 PM
I'm only posting in here to say the grammar in the title is awful.

MagicHero3
04-13-2011, 04:51 PM
Please find me the post where I said they'd beat us. I said they'd be better than us.

seriously...:clap:

Swashcuff
04-13-2011, 04:56 PM
wait your the 76er fan who thinks the Bulls are still better than you even without Rose! i remember you! your opinion already doesnt matter.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

You are the magic fan who uses PPG and FG% as your argument when stating that Dwight has a versatile offensive game.

I am not even a Magic fan and I made a better, a real and a more complete case than that garbage.

Swashcuff
04-13-2011, 04:57 PM
seriously...:clap:

Way to exclude the majority of the post. Well done dude. Very classy.

MagicHero3
04-13-2011, 05:01 PM
lol yeah since PPG and FG% has nothing to do with offense.

oh and now were talking about versatility? at first you were talking about a low post game? so...your changing the subject?

even so...FG% and PPG doesnt have anything to do with that either? cmon man. Im not tryin to ARGUE like you are, im just proving a point.

MagicHero3
04-13-2011, 05:02 PM
and your arguing with me about something were agreeing on? what is wrong with you?

Redbull
04-13-2011, 05:09 PM
D. Rose and maybe Dirk.

MagicHero3
04-13-2011, 05:09 PM
No offense, but what makes them an expert? Because they are on TV and on ESPN?

I respect alot of people on this boards opinion just as much as I do as one of these so called "experts" if not more then them. Do they really know more then your avid fan that watches all the games and then comes into a NBA forum "daily" to debate other people for hours on end about every aspect NBA related.

I don't see many "experts" on tv debating advanced stats such as per, ts, usg%.....ect.

All they have is an "opinion" like everyone else does.

I've just never understood why people put so much stock into what people say on ESPN when they KNOW they are part of the system thats built for "entertainment" not NBA knowledge.

well you see its their JOB. They do it every day for a living. its like your saying "why would you trust a plumbing expert on plumbing?" well hes an expert bc its his job.
Im not saying they are always right, im saying majority of the time they are.

i cant believe i have to argue for why the experts opinion matters?
can you just try to see what i mean instead of immediately arguing against everything i say? seriously, you guys are childish

Swashcuff
04-13-2011, 05:11 PM
lol yeah since PPG and FG% has nothing to do with offense.

oh and now were talking about versatility? at first you were talking about a low post game? so...your changing the subject?

even so...FG% and PPG doesnt have anything to do with that either? cmon man. Im not tryin to ARGUE like you are, im just proving a point.

Dude the use of FG% and PPG hold ZERO ground unless it is broken down. LeBron Averages more than Melo for their career but that doesn't mean that I can use his FG% and PPG in a debate of who has the better offensive package than whom one would have to break those %s down in order to properly illustrate their point.

This is not about scoring but the way in which they score.

Do yo know the meaning of verstile? Hakeem had a versatile offensive game, Kareem had a versatile offensive game hell Yao Ming has a versatile offensive game this season Dwight has shown considerable strides in developing his versatility in his offensive game. That is what it means.

Kendrick Perkins shot over 60% from the field last season. Does he have a good low post offense?

Byronicle
04-13-2011, 05:12 PM
Chris Paul?

MagicHero3
04-13-2011, 05:22 PM
Dude the use of FG% and PPG hold ZERO ground unless it is broken down. LeBron Averages more than Melo for their career but that doesn't mean that I can use his FG% and PPG in a debate of who has the better offensive package than whom one would have to break those %s down in order to properly illustrate their point.

This is not about scoring but the way in which they score.

Do yo know the meaning of verstile? Hakeem had a versatile offensive game, Kareem had a versatile offensive game hell Yao Ming has a versatile offensive game this season Dwight has shown considerable strides in developing his versatility in his offensive game. That is what it means.

Kendrick Perkins shot over 60% from the field last season. Does he have a good low post offense?

you were previously arguing FOR dwight and when i put up stats supporting him you argue against them?

The original question was to list some guys better than dwight in the low post this season, and then you jumped in just to argue and added the factor of "versatility" which i never mentioned nor did the guy i was debating with. i guess you decided to throw that in there to try and make me look wrong about something i wasnt even discussing?

The guy listed people he thought were better than dwight in the low post.
I responeded.


When I say "good in the low post" it means who can score more/make shots for themselves in the post...

Dwight can do that bc of his strength and athleticism. it shows in his pts per game and fg%. Hes is getting shots and getting quality shots at that. Whether they are assisted or not, hes still scoring right at the rim, or as basketball defines it, "the low post".


Now, lets see what you have to disagree with next. :facepalm:

Swashcuff
04-13-2011, 05:33 PM
you were previously arguing FOR dwight and when i put up stats supporting him you argue against them?

The original question was to list some guys better than dwight in the low post this season, and then you jumped in just to argue and added the factor of "versatility" which i never mentioned nor did the guy i was debating with. i guess you decided to throw that in there to try and make me look wrong about something i wasnt even discussing?

The guy listed people he thought were better than dwight in the low post.
I responeded.


When I say "good in the low post" it means who can score more/make shots for themselves in the post...

Dwight can do that bc of his strength and athleticism. it shows in his pts per game and fg%. Hes is getting shots and getting quality shots at that. Whether they are assisted or not, hes still scoring right at the rim, or as basketball defines it, "the low post".


Now, lets see what you have to disagree with next. :facepalm:

I can clearly see you don't even understand the discussion. I shall no longer waste any time on you.

MagicHero3
04-13-2011, 05:37 PM
I can clearly see you don't even understand the discussion. I shall no longer waste any time on you.

really? u cant respond to that? sounds like someone is taking the "avoidance" road which means...ding ding ding! he realizes he was wwrroongg.

besides, the discussion was between me and someone different than u. and you jumped in adding your stipulations.

now all you can do is claim i dont understand my own discussion which you were not originally part of?

trust me, your wasting your time, bc im lovin these reactions you give me lol

RCarlson85
04-13-2011, 05:42 PM
I would say Lebron meant more to the Cavs since it is pretty obvious how much they fell off this year. It's hard to say though because we don't know what the Magic would be like without Dwight compared to the Cavs this year for example.

Swashcuff
04-13-2011, 05:47 PM
really? u cant respond to that? sounds like someone is taking the "avoidance" road which means...ding ding ding! he realizes he was wwrroongg.

besides, the discussion was between me and someone different than u. and you jumped in adding your stipulations.

now all you can do is claim i dont understand my own discussion which you were not originally part of?

trust me, your wasting your time, bc im lovin these reactions you give me lol

And you called someone childish earlier.

Your idea of having a good postgame is scoring points and at a high %. That in itself speaks to how much knowledge you have on the topic.

I jumped in on the other posters list to iron out his mistakes. He was totally correct in saying those others have a better post game than Dwight. Not LOW POST but post game yes.

You NEVER mentioned ANYTHING about the Low Post. I mentioned the low post and debated such. A debate in which your stats would hold no ground in because it doesn't illustrate what he is actually doing to score those points in the post. I am not running from anything it just astounds me as to how much you can't come to terms with the fact that using %s and per game stats on their own will not illustrate who has a better offensive arsenal than whom.

You are loving the reactions I am giving you. You have been owned by every poster this entire thread and have proven a complete lack of comprehension in every single debate you got yourself into.

I am not avoiding anything. You are a waste of time end of story. Why do I have to avoid you? You haven't made a lick of sense in this entire thread.

MagicHero3
04-14-2011, 03:04 PM
And you called someone childish earlier.

Your idea of having a good postgame is scoring points and at a high %. That in itself speaks to how much knowledge you have on the topic.

I jumped in on the other posters list to iron out his mistakes. He was totally correct in saying those others have a better post game than Dwight. Not LOW POST but post game yes.

You NEVER mentioned ANYTHING about the Low Post. I mentioned the low post and debated such. A debate in which your stats would hold no ground in because it doesn't illustrate what he is actually doing to score those points in the post. I am not running from anything it just astounds me as to how much you can't come to terms with the fact that using %s and per game stats on their own will not illustrate who has a better offensive arsenal than whom.

You are loving the reactions I am giving you. You have been owned by every poster this entire thread and have proven a complete lack of comprehension in every single debate you got yourself into.

I am not avoiding anything. You are a waste of time end of story. Why do I have to avoid you? You haven't made a lick of sense in this entire thread.

wrong again

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicHero3
"average at best? yyeeaa you havent been watching Dwight this season have you? name what players in the league right now who are better offensively in the post than Dwight. You cant even think of more than 2 or 3. "


Homeboy's response...

I watch him struggle against taller guys, like Bynum, & Jason Collins (seriously)


You can't be serious saying Dwight has the best postgame, you want me to name just three I can name at least ten

1.) Bynum
2.) Gasol
3.) Boozer
4.) Z-Bo
5.) Tim Duncan
6.) Aldridge
7.) B.Lopez
8.) Al Horford
9.) Al Jefferson
10.) Elton Brand
11.) Demarcus Cousins

Are you serious?
----------------------


BAM SWASHCUFF! welcome to liar-town; population YOU

Swashcuff
04-14-2011, 05:16 PM
wrong again

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicHero3
"average at best? yyeeaa you havent been watching Dwight this season have you? name what players in the league right now who are better offensively in the post than Dwight. You cant even think of more than 2 or 3. "


Homeboy's response...

I watch him struggle against taller guys, like Bynum, & Jason Collins (seriously)


You can't be serious saying Dwight has the best postgame, you want me to name just three I can name at least ten

1.) Bynum
2.) Gasol
3.) Boozer
4.) Z-Bo
5.) Tim Duncan
6.) Aldridge
7.) B.Lopez
8.) Al Horford
9.) Al Jefferson
10.) Elton Brand
11.) Demarcus Cousins

Are you serious?
----------------------


BAM SWASHCUFF! welcome to liar-town; population YOU

You really don't know much about basketball don't you?

Do you know that their is a difference between LOW, MID and HIGH post? Did you know that?

I specifically said is ALL my posts that I am talking about the LOW POST.

Denver-boy
04-14-2011, 05:41 PM
Kevin Durant, If anyone watched Sports Nation today, So guy pointed out LEbron James difference to him on the court from on the bench, Compared to MVP rose, Lebron Smokes him, LBJ means a whole lot to Miami than Rose means to the Bulls.

Denver-boy
04-14-2011, 05:42 PM
Gasol Vs. Howard.... Who you TAKE???

macc
04-14-2011, 06:17 PM
well you see its their JOB. They do it every day for a living. its like your saying "why would you trust a plumbing expert on plumbing?" well hes an expert bc its his job.
Im not saying they are always right, im saying majority of the time they are.

i cant believe i have to argue for why the experts opinion matters?
can you just try to see what i mean instead of immediately arguing against everything i say? seriously, you guys are childish



Well if you're going to debate something then you have to start with the base of an argument. If you're using somone's words as gold and that they are an "expert" my question is, what makes them an expert?

Their "job" is to sit in front of a camera and talk about sports that they watch all the time. I think the majority of people on this forum watch sports daily but instead of talking on camera, they talk on a message forum where they get to debate what they said.

Just because they are on tv doesn't make them any more an expert than somone who watches everyday. Or do these experts have special eyes that allow them to see things your average fan doesn't?

Plus experts are wrong every single day. So it's not like we're talking science here.

stawka
04-14-2011, 07:33 PM
Doesn't the "player who means most to their team" equate to "Most Valuable Player"?

Well yes, Dwight just like LeBron last year and Kobe a few years ago before Gasol got there