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View Full Version : The Official 2010-2011: Race to the MVP Discussion Thread Part VIII



ManRam
04-11-2011, 05:59 PM
This better be the last one!

Part I (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=556860)

Part II (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=573546)

Part III (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=583265)

Part IV (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=587677)

Part V (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=593882)

Part VI (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=601208)

Part VII (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=606325)

SteBO
04-11-2011, 06:01 PM
NOOOOOOOOO!!!!! END THIS PLEASEEEEE!!!!!!!! :cry:

ManRam
04-11-2011, 06:02 PM
Haha.

Whatever. I like how all the talk is condensed to one thread...

I can't wait until it's announced and over with.

I vote Rose!

finalverse
04-11-2011, 06:02 PM
you honestly think that one player wants to win more than another?lol of course some people want to win more than others. It's human nature that no two people are alike. Mike Bibby went to the Heat...obviously to win...but you can't sit there and think that his will to win is the same as say MJ or Kobe? Same can be said for Rose. Maybe his will to win is greater than someone elses.

SteBO
04-11-2011, 06:03 PM
Ah well. Rose!

B'sCeltsPatsSox
04-11-2011, 06:06 PM
This should already be over. Hopefully its the last thread about the MVP.

SteBO
04-11-2011, 06:07 PM
This should already be over. Hopefully its the last thread about the MVP.
You and I both brother.

h2r09
04-11-2011, 06:09 PM
lol of course some people want to win more than others. It's human nature that no two people are alike. Mike Bibby went to the Heat...obviously to win...but you can't sit there and think that his will to win is the same as say MJ or Kobe? Same can be said for Rose. Maybe his will to win is greater than someone elses.

first of all that is bs all these players want to win, one wanting to win that little bit more makes no difference. do you honestly think one guy plays better then another because he just wants it that much more? that is patently absurd.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
04-11-2011, 06:10 PM
I really don't care much about the MVP award. Last player to win MVP and a championship in the same season was Duncan in 02-03.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
04-11-2011, 06:11 PM
You and I both brother.

It also means less infractions for you mods to hand out.

finalverse
04-11-2011, 06:13 PM
first of all that is bs all these players want to win, one wanting to win that little bit more makes no difference. do you honestly think one guy plays better then another because he just wants it that much more? that is patently absurd.It's the same reason why some people survive shark attacks while others can come back from a tragic event like a bullet through the head. Some people believe or not...have a stronger "will" then others. To say there is no difference in a persons "will" to win is what is patently absurd...as you like to put it.

Some people desire greatness while others are just content to live life. Sure everyone wants to win...but it would be foolish to say everyone wants to win just as bad. You can see it with your own eyes. Why do some people dive for a loose ball while others just stand watching? It's called having a desire...a "will" to win more than the next guy.

h2r09
04-11-2011, 06:16 PM
It's the same reason why some people survive shark attacks while others can come back from a tragic event like a bullet through the head. Some people believe or not...have a stronger "will" then others. To say there is no difference in a persons "will" to win is what is patently absurd...as you like to put it.

yes, because playing basketball is just like those 2 things. having a stronger will to win doesnt make you better in basketball. it just doesnt.

all guys in the nba have a strong will to win. talent is what actually allows them to do it though.

finalverse
04-11-2011, 06:21 PM
having a stronger will to win doesnt make you better in basketball. it just doesnt.I didn't catch all the conversation you were having with the guy earlier about this topic...so if the discussion was whether or not a person can get by on "will" alone..then I agree with you in that person does need talent. But at the same time if you have two players who are very good then a stronger desire to win can most certainly give one player the advantage. It's the reason why small guys like Dennis Rodman rebound the heck out of the ball. It's the reason why someone like Noah is making an impact in this league unlike a guy like Kwame who is just happy to still be playing. You need talent but talent can't get you everything either.

h2r09
04-11-2011, 06:25 PM
I didn't catch all the conversation you were having with the guy earlier about this topic...so if the discussion was whether or not a person can get by on "will" alone? Then I agree...no a person does need talent. But at the same time you if two players are very good then a stronger desire to win can most certainly give one player the advantage. It's the reason why small guys like Dennis Rodman rebound the heck out of the ball...their will to rebound is more then the guy they are facing. It's the reason why someone like Noah is making an impact in this league unlike a guy like Kwame who is just happy to still be in this league.

no, the reason rodman was such a rebounder was because he was great at reading where the ball was going to go off the rim before it even got there and he always was a great box out guy and always had good position..

Will doesnt get you to the basket for a layup in the final minute just because you wanted it really badly. quickness off the dribble and ability to contort your body around the defense or read where the defense is going to play you is what get you that layup.

enough with that will thing and thinking one player wants it any more than another. of course there are some players in the league who are happy just to be in the league and competing for a roster spot, but to say that rose is a leading mvp candidate because not only are his stats great but because he is an emotional leader and motivates his teammates to want to win more is just ridiculous.

finalverse
04-11-2011, 06:35 PM
but to say that rose is a leading mvp candidate because not only are his stats great but because he is an emotional leader and motivates his teammates to want to win more is just ridiculous.I'm not sure where you're getting at. If you don't think there is such a thing as having a greater 'desire/will' to win then you are wrong IMO. Case in point...most everyone who has basketball knowledge has said at one point or another that MJ had it all but his will to win was greater then anyone he faced on the court, which gave him that edge (feel to disagree with them if you wish). It's how you conduct yourself in practice (players who work hard vs others who want to chill). It's how hard you go during the game (players who are 100% at all times versus those who take plays off). It's there dude...it's there.

flips333
04-11-2011, 06:39 PM
lol of course some people want to win more than others. It's human nature that no two people are alike. Mike Bibby went to the Heat...obviously to win...but you can't sit there and think that his will to win is the same as say MJ or Kobe? Same can be said for Rose. Maybe his will to win is greater than someone elses.

Will to win is not measurable. MJ and Kobe are two of the best players ever. You can't compare will on any scale because you can't remove talent from that scale. Jordan didn't win 6 championships because he had a stronger will to win, he won because he was better. I'm not saying Drive isn't important, it's necessary, some players don't have it, but you can't quantify it.

Rose is this years MVP, BTW.

h2r09
04-11-2011, 06:42 PM
I'm not sure where you're getting at. If you don't think there is such a thing as having a greater 'desire/will' to win then you are wrong IMO. Case in point...most everyone who has basketball knowledge has said at one point or another that MJ had it all but his will to win was greater then anyone he faced on the court, which gave him that edge (feel to disagree with them if you wish). It's how you conduct yourself in practice (players who work hard vs others who want to chill). It's how hard you go during the game (players who are 100% at all times versus those who take plays off). It's there dude...it's there.

so you mean effort? of course if you play as hard as you can and if you are more talented then you should win. but mj didnt have some secret intangible to win because he wanted to win more. dont you think stockton and malone wanted to win a whole hell of a lot? was there will just not as strong as mj's?

get out of here with this will crap. its called effort and talent.

finalverse
04-11-2011, 06:52 PM
Whatever you want to call it to help your case is fine by me. Some players have "it" whiles others just want to chill.

PurpleJesus28
04-11-2011, 07:03 PM
Rose all day, and twice on Sundays.

KDM1986
04-11-2011, 07:20 PM
Rose period.

ellesmeire
04-11-2011, 07:25 PM
the MVP is not worthy...he deserves more

bulldog312
04-11-2011, 07:32 PM
so you mean effort? of course if you play as hard as you can and if you are more talented then you should win. but mj didnt have some secret intangible to win because he wanted to win more. dont you think stockton and malone wanted to win a whole hell of a lot? was there will just not as strong as mj's?

get out of here with this will crap. its called effort and talent.

Will. Effort. Is there really a difference?

HesterTrain
04-11-2011, 09:49 PM
DRose1

HesterTrain
04-11-2011, 09:56 PM
Rose breaks the tape in this final 2010-11 edition of The Race, hotly pursued by the next two or three contenders but ultimately opening some space. The third-year playmaker -- who now is on track to become the youngest MVP in NBA history, considering he won't turn 23 until Oct. 4 -- did it by sparking the Bulls to the likely No. 1 seed in the Eastern Conference (their magic number was 1 with four games left).

Rose did it with a stunning step up in his game, so much that he would be on the short list for the league's Most Improved Player award if he hadn't upgraded to this loftier debate. He did it with explosiveness, he did it with leadership, he did it with highlight moments, he did it with humility. He did it with a personal challenge back at the start of training camp ("Why can't I be MVP?" said a confident guy who didn't get even a fifth-place vote after his first two seasons).

Yes, he has done it with statistics, though the most devoted data-punchers would have you think that Rose is some sort of undeserving Podoloff trophy usurper. He is on the brink of becoming only the seventh player in NBA history to finish with at least 24.0 ppg, 4.0 rpg and 8.0 apg, joining Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry West, Michael Jordan, Gary Payton and LeBron James. He is the only player to rank in the top 10 in scoring and assists. And he has scored or assisted on at least half of Chicago's field goals in 26 games this season, tops in the NBA.

Oh, and in terms of team stuff, the Bulls haven't lost three in a row this season. Their record after even a single loss: 16-4. Also, for all the help he has gotten from Tom Thibodeau's coaching and the Chicago defense's togetherness, Rose has had to carry the Bulls through the considerable injury absences of Joakim Noah and Carlos Boozer, the team's second- and third-most important players.

But Rose's contributions go far beyond stats (a tool that some MVP pundits want to use to dictate the discussion rather than contribute to it). They stretch into practice, into the locker room, into intensity and confidence and team chemistry. More than that, they reach all the way to artistry, which is a big reason so many of us watch and care about pro basketball in the first place.

This wasn't just a "star is born" performance for Rose, it was an "MVP is born" season, from start to finish (the remaining six days not withstanding). The Race is pleased to have caught on relatively early, moving him to the top of the rankings in the final week of calendar 2010 and keeping him there throughout.


nba.com

D Roses Bulls
04-11-2011, 11:54 PM
for you stat geeks who keep saying the bulls are better with rose on the bench.....

Rose on the Floor
On floor
mins:2847
off. eff. :107.3
Def. Eff. : 99.3
Diff. +8.0


Off floor
878
98.7
91.1
+7.6

http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/04/07/statscube-mvp/index.html

DragonJaii
04-11-2011, 11:55 PM
Rose for sure no question now.

D Roses Bulls
04-11-2011, 11:59 PM
oh and go to the bottom and see rose in the clutch, he ranks 1st in the nba in the last 5 minutes 3 minutes and 2nd overall in the clutch.

ManRam
04-12-2011, 12:03 AM
the MVP is not worthy...he deserves more

:laugh:

Agreed.

Bullsfan22
04-12-2011, 01:38 AM
boy have the nastiness in here has changed. I wonder why..

Chronz
04-12-2011, 02:30 AM
Sure, because I think most stat posters do an unconvincing job at considering variables such as teammates and strategies.
Again irrelevant until you actually show me what these poor arguments were. Its easy to say this without ever having to defend your stance, just the same I think most non "stat posters" do a poor and less convincing job at considering the quantifiable aspects of the game.


If stats were everything I'd think people should be able to use them to make some decent predictions. Just about everything I read from stat heads is hindsight.

This is because hindsight is 20/20, its easy to assess things that have happened and why they happened after.... you know.... they actually happen.
Ignoring this blatant truth, if any of the arguments being made here were that stats are empirically all knowing you would have a decent point, and even thats a stretch.


that you explained your position well enough.
Yes lets argue in circles


it was a logical assumption.
This is due to your utter lack of understanding to the claims that have been made, but feel free to actually begin debating otherwise.


Including the opinions of players and coaches in some arguments. meh, I don't buy it.
You dont need to, you only need to be able to refute the claims made.

Baller1
04-12-2011, 02:43 AM
Durant got shafted this year... Just sayin'

Jewelz0376
04-12-2011, 02:57 AM
Durant got shafted this year... Just sayin'

With the potential theThunder have with perk healthy...and ibaka improving, durant, westbrook, and harden improving over the offseason... I think next year they will end up with #1 seed in west and Durant will get mvp...

BullsFTW
04-12-2011, 03:32 AM
I really don't care much about the MVP award. Last player to win MVP and a championship in the same season was Duncan in 02-03.

As a teammate and as a person, Rose is more similar to Duncan's professional and humble character than LeBron, D-Wade, and Kobe's prima donna character.

Just felt like saying....

ellesmeire
04-12-2011, 03:45 AM
2003 isnt that long ago

Baller1
04-12-2011, 04:09 AM
With the potential theThunder have with perk healthy...and ibaka improving, durant, westbrook, and harden improving over the offseason... I think next year they will end up with #1 seed in west and Durant will get mvp...

That'd be awesome. But honestly, I'll take the #1 seed over Durant getting MVP anyday.

I just think everyone counted him out this season when he shouldn't have been.

ellesmeire
04-12-2011, 04:11 AM
Nick (NH): Derrick Rose moved up to fourth place on Hollinger's MVP list. Did someone at ESPN finally pull him aside and tell him he was starting to look bad for ranking Rose sixth? I don't mind if someone makes a different MVP argument, but c'mon.

Michael Wilbon: I respect John very much ... but to giving yourself over to numbers is always the wrong way to go. Numbers can't tell you how hard a guy practices and whether his infectious work habits affect the work habits of teammates. Numbers can't tell you whether a guy grabbed somebody by the collar in the locker room and said, "You're playing tonight or I'm going to put my fist through your chest" which, trust me, happens.

Numbers can't tell you whether a guy played through a sprained ankle when he shouldn't have and either inspired or scared the hell out of his teammates. Numbers can't tell you whether teammates and opponents hold a player in awe because of something he does during the game. Numbers tell you a portion of the story, and then you have to use your eyes and sense of the game, hopefully acquired over years and years of watching and listening, and make an assessment.

If numbers prevent you from making those kinds of judgment, based on your own watching and listening to coaches/players/trainers, etc., then to me you're not doing your job. Now, again, I KNOW Hollinger does his job and works at it passionately. ... I just completely disagree with any of these stat metrics that have contributed to a tyranny of statistics, many of which obscure the truth of the matter.

The truth of the matter this season is that NO player in the NBA has meant as much to his team, has played as well, has led as effectively, has been as accountable and as responsible as D. Rose of the Chicago Bulls. Fortunately, I think the vast majority of the voters know this. I know Doc Rivers pulled me aside in January and said, "Rose is going to the MVP of the league THIS year." Doc said that. I'll take his informed judgment over all the numbers Hollinger and anybody else can produce.

http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-110412/daily-dime

I cant stand hollinger personally

Cool007
04-12-2011, 09:59 AM
With the potential theThunder have with perk healthy...and ibaka improving, durant, westbrook, and harden improving over the offseason... I think next year they will end up with #1 seed in west and Durant will get mvp...

I can definitely see that. I love Thunder and their lineup (Ibaka has really improved his mid-range game and he is a great finisher around the hoop and he is already a defensive monster), now you add Perkins next to him and their frontcourt becomes pretty awesome to already pretty good duo in Durant and Westbrook.

I think Thunder will be the team to beat next year (maybe this year as well?).

Cool007
04-12-2011, 10:06 AM
That'd be awesome. But honestly, I'll take the #1 seed over Durant getting MVP anyday.

I just think everyone counted him out this season when he shouldn't have been.

No, nobody counted him out. He didn't have a as great a start to the season as a lot of people expected and Thunder weren't doing great either. Not to mention Westbrook improving big time also didn't help as so many games you could argue that Westbrook was better than Durant that game.

It is recently that (after Perkin's trade), people are really high on Thunder now (I am included). It seems like now Westbrook and Durant doesn't have to worry about interior defense and they just go out and do their thing while Ibaka and Perkins hold off the interior.

I love Thunder team now (my 2nd favorite after Bulls). I would love to see Bulls and Thunder rule this decade. :cool:

Southsideheat
04-12-2011, 10:26 AM
The problem i see is that stat heads totally disregard intangibles, and non-stat heads totally disregard stats. There should be a delicate balance between the two because both have their flaws and will always have their flaws. You can't honestly KNOW every intangible, and how much weight they hold if at all, and on the flip side, in 5 years, there will be better metrics to help quantify the game than there are today. There are metrics we use today, that we will not be using in 5 years because there will be a better metric that we come up with. That's something we know for certain. We are constantly learning about the game, and we will continue to, it doesn't stop. But to say that one is better than the other and that we have this thing figured out just shows people's ignorance on both sides. You take into account EVERYTHING then draw your conclusions, just like in any decision you make.

Baller1
04-12-2011, 10:49 AM
No, nobody counted him out. He didn't have a as great a start to the season as a lot of people expected and Thunder weren't doing great either. Not to mention Westbrook improving big time also didn't help as so many games you could argue that Westbrook was better than Durant that game.

It is recently that (after Perkin's trade), people are really high on Thunder now (I am included). It seems like now Westbrook and Durant doesn't have to worry about interior defense and they just go out and do their thing while Ibaka and Perkins hold off the interior.

I love Thunder team now (my 2nd favorite after Bulls). I would love to see Bulls and Thunder rule this decade. :cool:

:nod:

Although Miami and Portland will be right there in my opinion.

D Roses Bulls
04-12-2011, 08:17 PM
"The MVP award is for the guy who is having the best season," Barkley said. "I said it two, three months ago, this thing has been wrapped up. They're trying to bring up other candidates. I understand [Orlando Magic coach] Stan Van Gundy wants to pump up his guy Dwight Howard because I love Dwight Howard, but Derrick Rose should win the MVP in a landslide. I know those clowns in Miami are not going to vote for him, but he should win the MVP hands down."

Sir Charles Barkley :)

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=6338399

Draco
04-12-2011, 09:19 PM
Again irrelevant until you actually show me what these poor arguments were. Its easy to say this without ever having to defend your stance, just the same I think most non "stat posters" do a poor and less convincing job at considering the quantifiable aspects of the game.

Dude, give it a rest. You essentially asked for an opinion about the general use of basketball related statistics. Go review the last thread. Can you connect any of my recent posts to someone who posted statistics? A Heat fan commented on Rose being the worst MVP in league history and I assumed he read you thread about Rose's rank in MVP history. That's where the conversation started.



This is because hindsight is 20/20, its easy to assess things that have happened and why they happened after.... you know.... they actually happen.
Ignoring this blatant truth, if any of the arguments being made here were that stats are empirically all knowing you would have a decent point, and even thats a stretch.

You're right, it's easy and not convincing. I find stats that can be used in a reliable, predictive model to be convincing. Arguments that use stat lines to compare two MVP candidates are less convincing. Diminishing Rose's accomplishment as 2nd to last ranked in MVP history because of hype is less convincing (and again, I assume you use your Synergy website subscription to draw your conclusions)



This is due to your utter lack of understanding to the claims that have been made, but feel free to actually begin debating otherwise.

Or your utter lack of understanding about how this conversation was started.



You dont need to, you only need to be able to refute the claims made.

No, I value expert opinion, especially when numerous coaches and players have the same opinion.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
04-12-2011, 09:28 PM
As a teammate and as a person, Rose is more similar to Duncan's professional and humble character than LeBron, D-Wade, and Kobe's prima donna character.

Just felt like saying....

Trust me, I think Duncan will be one of the last humble players for a long time. This new era that we are in every top player is a prima donna character.

Ovratd1up
04-12-2011, 11:36 PM
Trust me, I think Duncan will be one of the last humble players for a long time. This new era that we are in every top player is a prima donna character.

As the apparent faces of the future of basketball, the 22 and under Kevin Durant, Derrick Rose, and Blake Griffin all have great attitudes of humbleness, hard work, and respect.

Pierzynski4Prez
04-13-2011, 10:16 AM
As the apparent faces of the future of basketball, the 22 and under Kevin Durant, Derrick Rose, and Blake Griffin all have great attitudes of humbleness, hard work, and respect.

True, but for every one of those guys, there are 5 prima donna's.