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HouRealCoach
04-11-2011, 02:46 AM
Will the team be better, worse, or the same?

Noah/ Thomas/ Asik
Boozer/ Gibson
Deng/ Brewer
Bogans/ Korver
Iverson/ Watson

nitric
04-11-2011, 02:50 AM
Worst.
5apg to 3 TO's
42% on 26 shots :speechless:

John Walls Era
04-11-2011, 02:59 AM
:hide: j/k.

Allen Iverson (2001): 31.1 PPG, 2.5 Steals, 4.6 Assists.
Derrick Rose: 24.9 PPG and 8 Assists.

Doesn't really show much... we all knew AI was a ball hog so its no surprise if he got more points. So lets look at advance stats:

AI: ORtg-106, DRtg-99, TS-.518, WS- 11.8
Rose: ORtg-112, DRtg-103, TS-.546, WS- 12.5

Pretty close, slight edge to Rose BUT the rest of that 76ers team was just decent compared to this year's Bulls roster, AI didn't have as much help: LINK (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2001.html). Its close, but I'll take AI.

stawka
04-11-2011, 03:00 AM
Similar. Both SG's in PG's bodies, both awesome scorers. It's a coin toss. BTW, I liked Iverson. If there wasn't so much damn hype about Rose, I'd probably like him too

Storch
04-11-2011, 03:13 AM
Rose has a better court vision. I'll take rose. Iverson was incredible though.

SeoulBeatz
04-11-2011, 03:15 AM
Rose really reminds me a lot of Iverson, and this season reminds me of Iverson's 00-01 campaign. Iverson had better handles (yes, it's possible), but Rose is more athletic. Rose is quicker, but Iverson had better end to end speed.

Iverson gambled more on D and got more steals,

Up in the air to be honest.

Purple&Gold24
04-11-2011, 03:19 AM
Rose>Iverson.

Bulls_fan90
04-11-2011, 03:20 AM
Rose and it's not close. How many more games could this team possibly win? They are 60 and 20 with long term injuries to Boozer and Noah.

Also could you imagine Thibs working well with Iverson???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI

Jewelz0376
04-11-2011, 03:27 AM
lol I don't know why people look at AI shooting 42% and talk about it like it means he's trash... Shooting 42% isn't as bad when you factor in he was getting 10 makes a game from the free throw line...

I mean dam the guy was 5'10 and was expected to carry to carry his team offensively night after night..and people hate cause he couldn't shoot 50% with Aaron mckie or a broken down Glen Robinson as his best scorer in Philly... We saw what he did on O when he finally got a scorer in Melo he shot 46%...

Deng and Boozer right now are better offensively than any player AI played with in Philly ....

Rose's best attribute is a scoring and prime AI is a better scorer...Maybe he's a better passer, but it's not like AI had too many legit options to finish his assists..

If AI could take that Philly team to #1 seed with Mckie and Mutumbo as his best scoring options... I'm sure he could take this Bulls team with Boozer and Deng...Sure the east is def better overall now, but the players AI would have around him in Chi would def be better than the Philly team..Because both are comparable defensively, but def not on O...

Swashcuff
04-11-2011, 03:28 AM
Allen Iverson is my favourite player of all time but I have no problem admitting that he is probably the most inefficient superstar in the last 20 years in the NBA. That being said inefficient doesn't mean you can't be effective. I think in the same way A.I. was effective in the early 00s in leading his team to an NBA Finals is the very same way he could do so in today's NBA.

I also think based on the way perimeter play is called in today's NBA that he would also be a much more efficient player. Key with Allen Iverson would be shot selection. I do however believe that with a supporting case of guys like Luol Deng and Carlos Boozer his "selfish" moniker would be dropped and we'd see a much more rounded player/playmaker. He had to play that way because he was the sole offensive threat on that 00-01 team.

You can speak of his FGA and FG% all you want fact is if he was not that type of player there is no way that team makes it that far. I think the Bulls would be about the same however. Expect to see a dip in Iverson's scoring with however more overall complete game.

IMO in today's NBA with the Bulls' roster A.I.'s 31 on 42% from the field would be more like 27 on 45%.

It's really hard for me to imagine A.I. being the same player he was with the 00-01 76ers as he'd be with these Bulls. Never in his career did he have such a complete all round cast of teammates.

Swashcuff
04-11-2011, 03:29 AM
Rose and it's not close. How many more games could this team possibly win? They are 60 and 20 with long term injuries to Boozer and Noah.

Also could you imagine Thibs working well with Iverson???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI

:rolleyes:

Jewelz0376
04-11-2011, 03:29 AM
Rose really reminds me a lot of Iverson, and this season reminds me of Iverson's 00-01 campaign. Iverson had better handles (yes, it's possible), but Rose is more athletic. Rose is quicker, but Iverson had better end to end speed.

Iverson gambled more on D and got more steals,

Up in the air to be honest.

I'm sorry, but Rose quicker than a prime AI??...No way...If anything they are equal when it comes to quickness..

TopsyTurvy
04-11-2011, 03:31 AM
AI could break down garbage defenses and still score (likely better than Rose), but I prefer a guy who can facilitate if need be. I gotta go with Rose.

AI would be more fun to watch though.

Edit: AI was a pure scoring PG. Rose scores because he can and plays a similar game to Lebron.

Niro
04-11-2011, 03:32 AM
Rose and it's not close. How many more games could this team possibly win? They are 60 and 20 with long term injuries to Boozer and Noah.

Also could you imagine Thibs working well with Iverson???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI

no actually its a toss up

RIPSweetness34
04-11-2011, 03:42 AM
I'm sorry, but Rose quicker than a prime AI??...No way...If anything they are equal when it comes to quickness..

Then that takes away AI's only advantage. Rose can jump over AI

SeoulBeatz
04-11-2011, 03:46 AM
I'm sorry, but Rose quicker than a prime AI??...No way...If anything they are equal when it comes to quickness..

I mean, it's by a hair. I'm a die hard A.I fan, but it's a toss up. Very similar players.

The_Jamal
04-11-2011, 03:47 AM
It would have been interesting to see what AI would have changed his game with the Bulls supporting cast rather than Aaron ****ing Mckie as the 2nd best scorer on the team.

Jewelz0376
04-11-2011, 03:49 AM
AI could break down garbage defenses and still score (likely better than Rose), but I prefer a guy who can facilitate if need be. I gotta go with Rose.

AI would be more fun to watch though.

Edit: AI was a pure scoring PG. Rose scores because he can and plays a similar game to Lebron.

Who would AI even pass to on the philly team though?? It not even like Lebron in years past where he had shooters around him...The best rotation shooter AI had was Mckie...who shot 31% from...Other than AI and Mckie no other rotation player that even shot over 30% from 3...

TopsyTurvy
04-11-2011, 03:50 AM
I mean, it's by a hair. I'm a die hard A.I fan, but it's a toss up. Very similar players.

Except one was what, 5'11" and 165 soaking wet and the other is 6'3" 200? One couldn't pass, the other does so with historically high accuracy? Heck, they even finish around the rim differently - Rose finishes with violence, AI finished with finesse...

The only similarity I see between the two is they could both score at-will.

hans dolo
04-11-2011, 03:54 AM
Then that takes away AI's only advantage. Rose can jump over AI


uh oh, another person that has forgotten how nice iverson's ups were...

hey seoul, think its time for you to drop a quick link on some people.

BkOriginalOne
04-11-2011, 04:03 AM
Iverson was a bit more unstoppable. But, Rose is a better leader, shooter and has better size.

Jewelz0376
04-11-2011, 04:03 AM
uh oh, another person that has forgotten how nice iverson's ups were...

hey seoul, think its time for you to drop a quick link on some people.

this

Ai was 5'10 catch two hand lobs with ease

SeoulBeatz
04-11-2011, 04:33 AM
Then that takes away AI's only advantage. Rose can jump over AI

hmmm.....

iverson could get up in his prime.

I remember seeing this one live....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozb-h1Kj5es&feature=related

More-Than-Most
04-11-2011, 04:50 AM
its pretty close but it would be Iverson. He took a team of Eric Snow and so on to the finals. The guy had a horrible supporting cast.

naps
04-11-2011, 05:33 AM
AI was insane throughout that year. Rose is no where close to 2001 AI. People who are choosing Rose didn't watch nba in 2001, they were too young.

KG2TB
04-11-2011, 06:11 AM
AI was insane throughout that year. Rose is no where close to 2001 AI. People who are choosing Rose didn't watch nba in 2001, they were too young.

I'm 27 and I'm picking Rose. Iverson was one of my favorite players back in the day...AI gets a lot of respect for carrying his team to the finals but the east was incredibly weak back then...the east hasn't been this strong in a long time. It's a bit closer than some Bulls fans wanna admit...but Rose has the edge in passing, shooting, and is a better on ball defender. AI got steals because he gambled, but on the ball, one on one, Rose is a better defender, IMO.

NetsPaint
04-11-2011, 06:13 AM
I don't know about Rose being the better passer......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFHi5Zq-FRU

Iverson's assists total were good on the Nuggets, FG% went up, and scored over 26 points.

Rose has been very impressive, but I don't know how people can say he's better than Iverson when this is only his fourth season.

Iverson had Webber, Iguodala, and Korver in 2004-2005, but Webber was had a lot of injuries before and Iguoldala wasn't around long. Still got a good amount of assists though. They gave the Pistons a tough series in the Playoffs.

Anyway, Rose still puts his team on his back despite having Boozer. It's clear how much he means to the Bulls. I don't know who's season is better, but to say "It's not even close" is a bit ridiculous.

Law25
04-11-2011, 07:50 AM
I don't know about Rose being the better passer......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFHi5Zq-FRU

Iverson's assists total were good on the Nuggets, FG% went up, and scored over 26 points.

Rose has been very impressive, but I don't know how people can say he's better than Iverson when this is only his fourth season.

Iverson had Webber, Iguodala, and Korver in 2004-2005, but Webber was had a lot of injuries before and Iguoldala wasn't around long. Still got a good amount of assists though. They gave the Pistons a tough series in the Playoffs.

Anyway, Rose still puts his team on his back despite having Boozer. It's clear how much he means to the Bulls. I don't know who's season is better, but to say "It's not even close" is a bit ridiculous.

That video makes me miss Iverson :cry: :cry: :cry:

Nino Brown
04-11-2011, 08:03 AM
I don't know about Rose being the better passer......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFHi5Zq-FRU

Iverson's assists total were good on the Nuggets, FG% went up, and scored over 26 points.

Rose has been very impressive, but I don't know how people can say he's better than Iverson when this is only his fourth season.

Iverson had Webber, Iguodala, and Korver in 2004-2005, but Webber was had a lot of injuries before and Iguoldala wasn't around long. Still got a good amount of assists though. They gave the Pistons a tough series in the Playoffs.

Anyway, Rose still puts his team on his back despite having Boozer. It's clear how much he means to the Bulls. I don't know who's season is better, but to say "It's not even close" is a bit ridiculous.

* Correction 3rd season

mustaine
04-11-2011, 08:13 AM
First post. Been reading for some time but I had to register for this one.

First off, I'm a Bulls fan and aside from MJ, Iverson is my all time favorite player. Right now Rose is my favorite player.

That being said, in my opinion it's hard to compare the two. Iverson was a scoring machine that shouldered the scoring load every night for the Sixers. A.I. was also effectively a SG in a PG body. When he was off, they were extremely likely to lose. He was also a very good passer but his biggest problem was trusting the guys around him (with good reason in some cases). He was great at playing the passing lanes but gambled a lot on defense and was relatively weak defending one on one.

Rose is a better defender (no doubt about that), he has a much better supporting cast and he trusts them a 100%. He's awesome at getting to the hole but A.I. trumps pretty much every player at that part of the game. Rose might get there with time but no small player did it with as much efficiency as A.I. for so long. Neither is a pure shooter but I must say that Rose picks his shots better but that can also be contributed by the fact that he doesn't need to shoot as much as Iverson. One thing that works in Rose's favor is the fact that he's getting better at shooting all the time, A.I. never really put the work or effort into developing himself as a player. Don't get me wrong, he was amazing but spent most of his summers chilling with his friends instead of getting better so Rose has better work ethic. Iverson is probably the most naturally gifted guy I've ever seen (and that includes everybody) but in my opinion he never reached his full potential simply because of arrogance, he felt he was unbeatable and that ultimately wasn't the case.

Things Iverson did better than Rose:
Scoring in volumes
Playing passing lanes
Getting to the line (Rose is getting better all the time though)
Hustle (Rose is all in, don't get me wrong, but no player I have ever seen threw himself around the way A.I. did)

Things Rose does better:
Picking shots
Defense in general
Trusting his team
Finishing off games (yes, he's actually more efficient at the end of games, even at age 22)

One on one, I'm not sure how it would go, I'll give it to Iverson. The guy flat out knew how to score on anybody, at any time and at frantic pace. In a team game? 2001 A.I. wasn't any worse than Rose but he wasn't a lot better either.

Rose is just probably a better fit for the Bulls.

Doogolas
04-11-2011, 08:36 AM
Rose and it's not close, but really for only one reason:

I severely doubt Iverson puts up with Thibs. I think they'd have clashed like nobody's business.

Doogolas
04-11-2011, 08:40 AM
broken thread.

PhillyFaninLA
04-11-2011, 08:54 AM
Pound for pound Iverson at that point in time was a top 5 player all time at best and top 10 at worst. There was no one that could stop him.

I respect Rose's ability but your comparing someone that hall of famers couldn't stop to a really really good player. Iverson owned the court everyday in a way that only Kobe, Jordan, and Lebron have out of guys I've seen play.

PhillyFaninLA
04-11-2011, 08:58 AM
:hide: j/k.

Allen Iverson (2001): 31.1 PPG, 2.5 Steals, 4.6 Assists.
Derrick Rose: 24.9 PPG and 8 Assists.

Doesn't really show much... we all knew AI was a ball hog so its no surprise if he got more points. So lets look at advance stats:

AI: ORtg-106, DRtg-99, TS-.518, WS- 11.8
Rose: ORtg-112, DRtg-103, TS-.546, WS- 12.5

Pretty close, slight edge to Rose BUT the rest of that 76ers team was just decent compared to this year's Bulls roster, AI didn't have as much help: LINK (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2001.html). Its close, but I'll take AI.


Sure show advanced stats but don't take into account they played at different times, against different competition, with different supporting casts, and some different rules.

Stats don't show anything other than what actually happened and it doesn't show how it did.

Iverson playing in all star games and whenever he had players to give the ball to, his points stayed the same, the fg % went up, and so did his assists. AI did what he had to do for his team to compete. His defense was very very underrated, he was a lot more then steals...guys didn't try and drive past him.

TO to the CHI
04-11-2011, 09:22 AM
Rose and it's not close. How many more games could this team possibly win? They are 60 and 20 with long term injuries to Boozer and Noah.

Also could you imagine Thibs working well with Iverson??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI

In my opinion, this is the key. Rose works incredibly hard and has completely bought in to what Thibs is selling. He embraced Thibs' approach and has led his teammates. I know that AI worked very hard (he had to in order to be as good as he was), but his attitude was not that of a leader. Rose leads through his actions and his having bought into Thibs' approach. With that in mind, I think that this Bulls team is much better served with 2011 Rose.

Team*Chicago
04-11-2011, 09:29 AM
Will the team be better, worse, or the same?

Noah/ Thomas/ Asik
Boozer/ Gibson
Deng/ Brewer
Bogans/ Korver
Iverson/ Watson

:facepalm: Another jealous hateful thread. This is a no brainer, of corse the Bulls would be worse with Allen Iverson around.

The Bulls didn't even win a championship yet and this is like the 3rd hating jealous thread about Rose every since he became better than Chris Paul and Deron Williams, becoming the best PG in the entire league and of this decade.

theheatles
04-11-2011, 09:34 AM
numbers definitely point in roses favor outside of ppg plus iversons d makes rose look like bruce bowen

Dade County
04-11-2011, 09:35 AM
( I am afraid to read anyones post on here )

As long as this is not a who is better question.... I wont get banned arguing with a bulls fan today.


But rose is good for his team...

Hustlenomics
04-11-2011, 09:41 AM
they would go to the finals

bulldog312
04-11-2011, 10:05 AM
I know its been said already, but do you really think Iverson instantly buys into a rookie coach? Thibs is being talked about for coach of the year because Rose instantly bought in and listened and the rest of the team followed suit. Many stars (not just Iverson) wouldn't have done that.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
04-11-2011, 10:08 AM
lmao this isn't even close

Rose>iverson

3RDASYSTEM
04-11-2011, 10:13 AM
Iverson could outshoot him in his junior yr. in HS and people saying Rose just developed a 3pt shot and people must have really forgot AI was catching half court alley oops his rookie yr and even at G'town and he stopped doing all that dunking and jumping cause he had to carry those OFF. challenged teammates so he honed his already dangerous J/perimeter game, and to even compare the teams rosters is a joke besides the coaches/D strategy,thats the only comparison..i think DUNCAN/SHAQ is as good as any MVP candidate of today and thats who AI had to bang with,the 2 best BIGS along with KG of my time

Sixer Big 3 - Iverson/Mutombo and the 3rd one is hard to take cause of Mckie/Snow but Lynch was best perimeter wing Defender but either way its still the weakest trio to ever step foot on NBA Finals court

Bulls Big 3 - Rose/Deng/Noah or Rose/Deng/Boozer or take Deng out and replace him with Noah and thats still better even tho i give edge to AI over Rose, the other 2/3 guys are way better,hell even Korver is better now and that aint saying much,just that AI had the baby version of him

take a trip down memory lane of greatness
http://youtu.be/oM2aKZYRMkY - he was reignin 3's from hell as a 'Junior' in High school and didnt play his Senior season cuz of similar bogus way he aint playing today
http://youtu.be/5FGki9gshb4 - AAU ballin,look how pretty his form is,he was a way better shooter from anywhere than Rose before they even touched the NBA hardwood
http://youtu.be/fe66EodgWww - where does a 5'10 guy do baseline reverse dunks at and catch halfcourt alley oop dunks in college or Pro level,Nate Robinson got 3 slam dunk trophies and i cant ever recall him dunking in a live NBA game,be sure and catch the dunks at 1:00 and 1:30 mark and then pay homage

Im a big Rose fan also but Rose is a 'big' guard, Iverson was a 155lbs and played like he was 6'7 at 5'10, but like i say hes AI like

Rose's MVP numbers are like 25 and 7, and Iverson put up if ya round it off 24 and 8 in his ROY campaign and then when O'brien put him at full PG for that i think 05 or 06 season he put up like 33 and 8 but going back AI still managed damn near 5APG and over 31PPG running baseline to baseline in his MVP season and got Jordan rules ran on him(triple teamed), if AI was on that Bulls roster they would have won 60plus easy and could no way would they be able to Jordan rules him with that Bulls roster,hell they won 56 games that season he won MVP and he sat out final 5games, wat an a amazing talent to carry a franchise for a decade with no legit options,just broken down has beens like Big Dog and CWebb...like i say if he would have gotten the motivated not out of shape D.Coleman or the Big Dog that Allen/Cassell had or the Webber that Bibby had then i wouldnt even mention AI, but he was like the Superstar who had to take the 'garbage broken down has been talent' cause of his ''off'' the court issues with the league and unability to 'conform', what a talent/athlete, top 3 individually to ever hit hardwood along with Wilt and whoever you wanna chose maybe a MJ/LEBRON/SHAQ

John Walls Era
04-11-2011, 10:14 AM
Sure show advanced stats but don't take into account they played at different times, against different competition, with different supporting casts, and some different rules.

Stats don't show anything other than what actually happened and it doesn't show how it did.

Iverson playing in all star games and whenever he had players to give the ball to, his points stayed the same, the fg % went up, and so did his assists. AI did what he had to do for his team to compete. His defense was very very underrated, he was a lot more then steals...guys didn't try and drive past him.

Valid point. Teams actually played D back then.

Swashcuff
04-11-2011, 10:16 AM
First post. Been reading for some time but I had to register for this one.

First off, I'm a Bulls fan and aside from MJ, Iverson is my all time favorite player. Right now Rose is my favorite player.

That being said, in my opinion it's hard to compare the two. Iverson was a scoring machine that shouldered the scoring load every night for the Sixers. A.I. was also effectively a SG in a PG body. When he was off, they were extremely likely to lose. He was also a very good passer but his biggest problem was trusting the guys around him (with good reason in some cases). He was great at playing the passing lanes but gambled a lot on defense and was relatively weak defending one on one.

Rose is a better defender (no doubt about that), he has a much better supporting cast and he trusts them a 100%. He's awesome at getting to the hole but A.I. trumps pretty much every player at that part of the game. Rose might get there with time but no small player did it with as much efficiency as A.I. for so long. Neither is a pure shooter but I must say that Rose picks his shots better but that can also be contributed by the fact that he doesn't need to shoot as much as Iverson. One thing that works in Rose's favor is the fact that he's getting better at shooting all the time, A.I. never really put the work or effort into developing himself as a player. Don't get me wrong, he was amazing but spent most of his summers chilling with his friends instead of getting better so Rose has better work ethic. Iverson is probably the most naturally gifted guy I've ever seen (and that includes everybody) but in my opinion he never reached his full potential simply because of arrogance, he felt he was unbeatable and that ultimately wasn't the case.

Things Iverson did better than Rose:
Scoring in volumes
Playing passing lanes
Getting to the line (Rose is getting better all the time though)
Hustle (Rose is all in, don't get me wrong, but no player I have ever seen threw himself around the way A.I. did)

Things Rose does better:
Picking shots
Defense in general
Trusting his team
Finishing off games (yes, he's actually more efficient at the end of games, even at age 22)

One on one, I'm not sure how it would go, I'll give it to Iverson. The guy flat out knew how to score on anybody, at any time and at frantic pace. In a team game? 2001 A.I. wasn't any worse than Rose but he wasn't a lot better either.

Rose is just probably a better fit for the Bulls.

Quality first post. :clap:

Can't find a fault on anything you said.

Tarheels23
04-11-2011, 10:20 AM
The Bulls regular season record probably would not improve, but Iverson took his team to the finals single handedly. With this years' Bulls supporting cast that team with Iverson would have pushed the Lakers to 7.

mttwlsn16
04-11-2011, 10:52 AM
i miss AI :cry:

Doogolas
04-11-2011, 10:55 AM
The Bulls regular season record probably would not improve, but Iverson took his team to the finals single handedly. With this years' Bulls supporting cast that team with Iverson would have pushed the Lakers to 7.

Except you're assuming Iverson would listen to a coach like Thibs, which I severely doubt, Thibs is a hardass, Iverson and he would have clashed constantly.

Swashcuff
04-11-2011, 10:55 AM
i miss AI :cry:

:cry:

Swashcuff
04-11-2011, 11:03 AM
Except you're assuming Iverson would listen to a coach like Thibs, I severely doubt, Thibs is a hardass, Iverson and he would have clashed constantly.

Who is to say that he won't.

Given the supporting cast and the message I am quite certain that they both would have been able to find a common ground. I am sure there would have been clashes but nothing that would ruin the team's chemistry and chances at a run.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
04-11-2011, 11:18 AM
Then that takes away AI's only advantage. Rose can jump over AI

What are you talkin about? Defensivly AI was better... Better shooter, better scorer. It would be infair to compare Rose now, to AI's entire career; so compare stats they're first three seasons. There's no debate on who's better.

I'm not sayin The bulls team would be better with prime AI because I don't think they would. But don't make this a who's better debate, because there isn't one./

AIMelo=KillaDUO
04-11-2011, 11:19 AM
Some of these AI haters are truly ridiculous.

Tarheels23
04-11-2011, 11:39 AM
Except you're assuming Iverson would listen to a coach like Thibs, which I severely doubt, Thibs is a hardass, Iverson and he would have clashed constantly.

Good point, and I do agree. I thought we were comparing on court talent/ability and style of play. I was not factoring in coachability and chemistry (although Iverson's teammates always seemed to like him). But Rose would certainly win that contest.

Missing56&33
04-11-2011, 11:49 AM
I'll take AI......at one point AI was the face of the NBA. He was amazing on the floor. To bad Philly couldn't put together a solid team around AI. He should have stayed in Philly.

210Don
04-11-2011, 11:54 AM
I don't know about Rose being the better passer......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFHi5Zq-FRU

Iverson's assists total were good on the Nuggets, FG% went up, and scored over 26 points.

Rose has been very impressive, but I don't know how people can say he's better than Iverson when this is only his fourth season.

Iverson had Webber, Iguodala, and Korver in 2004-2005, but Webber was had a lot of injuries before and Iguoldala wasn't around long. Still got a good amount of assists though. They gave the Pistons a tough series in the Playoffs.

Anyway, Rose still puts his team on his back despite having Boozer. It's clear how much he means to the Bulls. I don't know who's season is better, but to say "It's not even close" is a bit ridiculous.

this video makes me miss vince carter! :cry:

JLynn943
04-11-2011, 12:23 PM
lol @ anybody saying it isn't even close.

Defense is pretty much a wash (technically in Iverson's favor if you look at the stats). People point to Iverson's fg% and argue that he only scored so much because of the volume of shots he was taking, but the reason his percentage was as low as it was was due to the lack of scoring options around him. He had to take that many shots. Same with the assists that year (which jumped up to around 7+ apg not much later).

For proof, just look at his play in Denver, where he was playing with other legitimate offensive weapons. His ppg dropped a little, but his shooting percentage was up over 45% and he tallied over 7 apg.

This Bulls team would at the very least be just as good as they are now with Iverson instead of Rose. The regular season probably would be about even, and I have to believe Iverson would take this team to the finals, so we'll see on that one. And this is not a knock on Rose, Bulls fans - it's a compliment. Iverson was a superstar in his prime. He could take over a game like few have ever been able to. So no reason to get defensive (or delusional) over this topic.

pd7631
04-11-2011, 12:27 PM
AI is my favorite player of all time, and I am also a big Derrick Rose fan(I'm rarely a fan of players not on the Sixers, so that says a lot about what I think of Rose). I think that this situation would depend completely on where AI's head would be. If he is carrying the same mindset he actually had in 01', then there's nobody I'd ever rather have leading my team other than MJ probably.

During the offseason of 2000, AI was almost dealt to Detroit and the bridge between him and Larry Brown was all but burned. Almost being traded really hit home for AI, and he went to Larry Brown and committed fully to what his coach was trying to do and AI was named team captain and the rest is history. If you have a fully committed Allen Iverson, then you have the most unstoppable little man the game has ever seen. He was the general of the 01' Sixers and they battled each and every night.

I think the biggest compliment I could make about D-Rose is that I see him doing a lot of the things that prime AI was doing. Rose just refuses to let his team lose and they play hard each and every night, no matter the circumstance.

This is definitely a toss up, but as I said before.....if AI's mind is right, it would be scary to think what he might do with D-Rose's supporting cast. He also has great chemistry with Kyle Korver anyway, so that would be fun to watch.

S-Dot
04-11-2011, 12:29 PM
I actually like the comparison.

I think the AI of 2001 with his skills and even more than that his determination could have led the Bulls team to this same time of regular season, but its a tough one to call

JordansBulls
04-11-2011, 12:48 PM
Rose simply because his personality would fit with nearly any team.

Hawkize31
04-11-2011, 12:55 PM
Similar. Both SG's in PG's bodies, both awesome scorers. It's a coin toss. BTW, I liked Iverson. If there wasn't so much damn hype about Rose, I'd probably like him too

This. Bulls fans act like theres never been a star player in the NBA before. EVERY TIME rose does anything good, its "OMG MVP NO DOUBT ROSE IS SICK."

Gets old fast.

NetsPaint
04-11-2011, 01:09 PM
First post. Been reading for some time but I had to register for this one.

First off, I'm a Bulls fan and aside from MJ, Iverson is my all time favorite player. Right now Rose is my favorite player.

That being said, in my opinion it's hard to compare the two. Iverson was a scoring machine that shouldered the scoring load every night for the Sixers. A.I. was also effectively a SG in a PG body. When he was off, they were extremely likely to lose. He was also a very good passer but his biggest problem was trusting the guys around him (with good reason in some cases). He was great at playing the passing lanes but gambled a lot on defense and was relatively weak defending one on one.

Rose is a better defender (no doubt about that), he has a much better supporting cast and he trusts them a 100%. He's awesome at getting to the hole but A.I. trumps pretty much every player at that part of the game. Rose might get there with time but no small player did it with as much efficiency as A.I. for so long. Neither is a pure shooter but I must say that Rose picks his shots better but that can also be contributed by the fact that he doesn't need to shoot as much as Iverson. One thing that works in Rose's favor is the fact that he's getting better at shooting all the time, A.I. never really put the work or effort into developing himself as a player. Don't get me wrong, he was amazing but spent most of his summers chilling with his friends instead of getting better so Rose has better work ethic. Iverson is probably the most naturally gifted guy I've ever seen (and that includes everybody) but in my opinion he never reached his full potential simply because of arrogance, he felt he was unbeatable and that ultimately wasn't the case.

Things Iverson did better than Rose:
Scoring in volumes
Playing passing lanes
Getting to the line (Rose is getting better all the time though)
Hustle (Rose is all in, don't get me wrong, but no player I have ever seen threw himself around the way A.I. did)

Things Rose does better:
Picking shots
Defense in general
Trusting his team
Finishing off games (yes, he's actually more efficient at the end of games, even at age 22)

One on one, I'm not sure how it would go, I'll give it to Iverson. The guy flat out knew how to score on anybody, at any time and at frantic pace. In a team game? 2001 A.I. wasn't any worse than Rose but he wasn't a lot better either.

Rose is just probably a better fit for the Bulls.
This deserves more love. Quality post.

Bullsfan22
04-11-2011, 01:17 PM
This. Bulls fans act like theres never been a star player in the NBA before. EVERY TIME rose does anything good, its "OMG MVP NO DOUBT ROSE IS SICK."

Gets old fast.

Yeah and classifying all bulls fans as one gets old fast.:rolleyes:

tjlipford
04-11-2011, 01:20 PM
I don't know who said it, but someone said a prime AI was not as quick as Rose. That to me sounds crazy. Both are lightning quick, but rose is stronger. AI was all speed. I definitely think AI was a lil faster.

I'll take AI over Rose. This Bulls team is better than that 76ers team IMO. Regardless of what people say, AI was a better scorer than Rose. People are forgetting about AI because it has been so long, but he was incredible. No way am I knocking Rose though he is a dog. I love watching him play. IMO he is the best point guard in the game and proves it more and more everytime he steps on the floor

tjlipford
04-11-2011, 01:23 PM
Rose reminds me of AI with that killer instinct. That's something u can't teach. He has a playground type of game too him. Extremely athletic & strong. Very very fun to watch. Im looking forward to him in the playoffs. He'll be given every point guard hell.

Lake_Show2416
04-11-2011, 01:31 PM
Rose>Iverson

can't win with Iverson, and extremely hard to find the right pieces to put around him that compliment his abilities

Blackwater13
04-11-2011, 01:33 PM
Except one was what, 5'11" and 165 soaking wet and the other is 6'3" 200? One couldn't pass, the other does so with historically high accuracy? Heck, they even finish around the rim differently - Rose finishes with violence, AI finished with finesse...

The only similarity I see between the two is they could both score at-will.

Best post in this entire thread. They aren't even close to the same player. The only thing similar in their games is the position they play.

Swashcuff
04-11-2011, 01:36 PM
Best post in this entire thread. They aren't even close to the same player. The only thing similar in their games is the position they play.

How is that the best post of the entire thread?

He said one couldn't pass and the other does so with historical accuracy. Neither of those are true for either player.

BrooklynBandito
04-11-2011, 01:40 PM
this. Bulls fans act like theres never been a star player in the nba before. Every time rose does anything good, its "omg mvp no doubt rose is sick."

gets old fast.

lmao

shizzle09
04-11-2011, 01:40 PM
Rose and it's not close. How many more games could this team possibly win? They are 60 and 20 with long term injuries to Boozer and Noah.

Also could you imagine Thibs working well with Iverson???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI

It's very close but your eyes just wont let you see it. I would take Rose over Iverson but to say its not close means you need to take them homer glasses off.

justinnum1
04-11-2011, 01:41 PM
probably not much of a difference, rose accounts for probably 20% of the bulls success, their defense is what makes them good.

shizzle09
04-11-2011, 01:42 PM
Rose>Iverson

can't win with Iverson, and extremely hard to find the right pieces to put around him that compliment his abilities

did Iverson not make the finals pretty much by himself?

Jonathan2323
04-11-2011, 01:44 PM
I think people forget how good AI was either that or their to young to remember seeing AI play in his prime lol.

nitric
04-11-2011, 01:47 PM
probably not much of a difference, rose accounts for probably 20% of the bulls success, their defense is what makes them good.

"20%" Lmao i love when people just make up numbers. At least we know Rose accounts f or 47% of the Bulls offense, #1 in the NBA.

justinnum1
04-11-2011, 01:49 PM
"20%" Lmao i love when people just make up numbers. At least we know Rose accounts f or 47% of the Bulls offense, #1 in the NBA.

An offense that isnt even top 10... you guys win games because of your defense, and bench.

albertc86
04-11-2011, 01:57 PM
I think people forget how good AI was either that or their to young to remember seeing AI play in his prime lol.

Yup.

Granted, the Eastern Conference was weak at the time. In my opinion, the top 4 seeds in the west could've bested the team making out of the east. The top contenders in the east were basically one-man wrecking crews (Iverson, Carter, McGrady, Pierce) with very little help. Rose would've been part of that trend at the time and it would've made little difference against the top teams in the west.

NYK4L
04-11-2011, 02:10 PM
We shall soon find out.

sf-fanatic
04-11-2011, 02:13 PM
Rose>Iverson

can't win with Iverson, and extremely hard to find the right pieces to put around him that compliment his abilities

It's not like Rose won anything in the playoffs yet either...just saying. At least iverson carried his team to multiple playoff series victory appearances and a finals appearance. Regular season wins are meaningless just ask lebron

redwhitenblue
04-11-2011, 02:18 PM
Do people actually remember Iverson playing?

He had a couple good defensive seasons, but overall Iverson is being heavily overrated defensively here. People keep saying 'well he could pass if he wanted too, look at Denver'.
I'm looking, there isn't much difference. Not bad, but not good. A big difference is Iverson was playing 40+ minutes a night, increasing some of his raw stats. Rose's assists per 36 minutes this year (7.5) is nearly a full assist higher than Iversons best year. Rose shot a higher % his first two years in the NBA than AI ever did in a season. Rose has AI in rebounding, passing (stop about this "the guys AI had to pass to", his assists never were as high as Rose's are this year), blocks. AI has a slight edge in scoring at will and stealing the ball. They're similar in holding onto the ball, Rose without a doubt has better hops, AI may jump very well for 5'10, Rose hits his head on the rim, it's not close. AI has an advantage in quickness.

IMO, 2001 Allen Iverson wouldn't have sustained the injuries and hard-*** coaching this year from Thibs. If you are going JUST by player, I think it's basically a wash. I think Rose distributes better to his teammates, but Iverson might be able to make up for that difference with his own scoring. However, Iverson's best attribute on D, playing the lanes and getting steals, is not allowed in the Bulls defensive system currently. If you are going by player and leader, it's Rose without a question to me.

KingPosey
04-11-2011, 02:37 PM
lol I don't know why people look at AI shooting 42% and talk about it like it means he's trash... Shooting 42% isn't as bad when you factor in he was getting 10 makes a game from the free throw line...

I mean dam the guy was 5'10 and was expected to carry to carry his team offensively night after night..and people hate cause he couldn't shoot 50% with Aaron mckie or a broken down Glen Robinson as his best scorer in Philly... We saw what he did on O when he finally got a scorer in Melo he shot 46%...

Deng and Boozer right now are better offensively than any player AI played with in Philly ....

Rose's best attribute is a scoring and prime AI is a better scorer...Maybe he's a better passer, but it's not like AI had too many legit options to finish his assists..

If AI could take that Philly team to #1 seed with Mckie and Mutumbo as his best scoring options... I'm sure he could take this Bulls team with Boozer and Deng...Sure the east is def better overall now, but the players AI would have around him in Chi would def be better than the Philly team..Because both are comparable defensively, but def not on O...

That is still awful, any way you slice it. And Im pretty sure AI is 6 feet tall.

SeoulBeatz
04-11-2011, 02:39 PM
I think people forget how good AI was either that or their to young to remember seeing AI play in his prime lol.

it's true.

A.I defined an era, and if you didn't like him, too bad, you got left behind.

He was THE man in the NBA in the early 2000's. Not Kobe, it was all about A.I and he was the clear MVP.

He's a legend in Philly, I don't remember an athlete who captivated a city more than A.I since 2000 onward. Every little kid in Philly got cornrows and tried to crossover and drive like A.I. He inspired every little guy out there that it was possible to acheive greatness in a game made for giants. I've never seen anyone want to win more and throw his body around with reckless abandon for the good of his team.

A.I dove for loose balls, he made incredible hustle plays, all while leading the NBA in minutes for 3 straight years while being the smallest pure scorer in the league. People who never watched him assumed he was lazy didn't give a ****, they couldn't be anymore ignorant. MANY TIMES on this board I've seen people say they've never seen A.I hustle? A.I played at full speed, non-stop, every game. He almost tried to hard because he'd always cheat on defense and get burnt trying to pick off every pass he could get his hands on.

He's not the brightest tool in the shed. His mom was only 14 when she gave birth to him so he didn't have anyone to look up to growing up and he has made his fair share of mistakes. Je had to take care of himself and that's where his ego comes from, he has trouble trusting people.

Say what you want about him (it will probably be negative), but don't forget that this was one of the greatest/unique players of all time.

People say he's selfish and he shot a low percentage.

Yeah, for his career he averaged 25.6 ppg, on .451% shooting with only 4.7 dimes a game.....

Oh wait, that's Kobe.... yes Kobe has the rings, but it's not like A.I is T-Mac here, A.I led his team to finals and was able to get past the first round 3 times.

A.I's numbers? 26.7 ppg, on .425 shooting with 6.2 dimes a game.

A.I was also 6" and 50 pounds smaller than Kobe, of course he's gonna miss a few more shots

Is that 3% difference in shooting percentage enough to seperate someone who is deemed unselfish from someone who many believe is the most selfish player of all time??? Now that just doesn't seem fair. A.I even had more assists than Kobe, and they were legit dimes.

If anyone else got 33 ppg while still managing 7.4 apg on .45%FG in 05-06 like A.I did, they would get nothing but praise for managing to get so many dimes while scoring. When an A.I hater sees that, they say he got the assists by default for being the go-to guy? (I've heard that said MANY times) ARE YOU SERIOUS? does anyone say that about Lebron? No. They praise him for being a great passer. A.I made some ridiculous passes too, but somehow some ignorant *** fans turn that into a negative for A.I? It's almost like arguing with a child.

but A.I has cornrows and tattoes, he's an easy scapegoat and always has been, the media and ignorant fans love to destroy this guy.

you either hate a.i or you love him and there's no getting around it. Don't even try to debate this post, because there no one will ever change their stance on A.I... just the way it is.

Rivera
04-11-2011, 02:49 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=rosede01&y1=2011&p2=iversal01&y2=2001


numbers are close and you can take them which way you want to create your argument

rose actually have a higher TOV% than AI

but i will take ai over rose mainly because i feel this bulls team is better than AI's sixers the year they made the finals...

AIMelo=KillaDUO
04-11-2011, 03:43 PM
Do people actually remember Iverson playing?

He had a couple good defensive seasons, but overall Iverson is being heavily overrated defensively here. People keep saying 'well he could pass if he wanted too, look at Denver'.
I'm looking, there isn't much difference. Not bad, but not good. A big difference is Iverson was playing 40+ minutes a night, increasing some of his raw stats. Rose's assists per 36 minutes this year (7.5) is nearly a full assist higher than Iversons best year. Rose shot a higher % his first two years in the NBA than AI ever did in a season. Rose has AI in rebounding, passing (stop about this "the guys AI had to pass to", his assists never were as high as Rose's are this year), blocks. AI has a slight edge in scoring at will and stealing the ball. They're similar in holding onto the ball, Rose without a doubt has better hops, AI may jump very well for 5'10, Rose hits his head on the rim, it's not close. AI has an advantage in quickness.

IMO, 2001 Allen Iverson wouldn't have sustained the injuries and hard-*** coaching this year from Thibs. If you are going JUST by player, I think it's basically a wash. I think Rose distributes better to his teammates, but Iverson might be able to make up for that difference with his own scoring. However, Iverson's best attribute on D, playing the lanes and getting steals, is not allowed in the Bulls defensive system currently. If you are going by player and leader, it's Rose without a question to me.

you obiously HAVE NO IDEA what youre talkin about... Iverson averaged 7+ assists in 8 different seasons. So I don't know where your getting that 7.5 is an assist more... I just read til u said that that cuz clearly u dont know what your talkin about and reading any more of your post would just make me feel stupid. A SLIGHT EDGE IN SCORIGN>?!?!?!?!? OMG........ 5 straight 40 pt games as a rookie breaking Wilt Chamberlains 37 year old record. Bro u seriously are just a homer. I understand you like Derrick Rose, but he is not Allen Iverson. U didn't watch AI play

AIMelo=KillaDUO
04-11-2011, 03:49 PM
I've bittin my tounge for a while now, but these Bull's fans are starting to piss me off & are starting to make me dislike Rose.

DoJoTheSlasher
04-11-2011, 04:01 PM
A.I was a decent player. LOL

Dude was unstoppable and I still remember his 45 foot bounce pass between Grant Hill's legs on the fast break while he was with Detroit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3cqnW_lgt0



Derrick Rose is kind of the same player and he might be better than A.I although that will be very hard to do.

I'd take Iverson because he could literally drop 45-50 on any given night.

KINGBAIZE
04-11-2011, 04:04 PM
Derrick Rose....by far.

redwhitenblue
04-11-2011, 04:05 PM
you obiously HAVE NO IDEA what youre talkin about... Iverson averaged 7+ assists in 8 different seasons. So I don't know where your getting that 7.5 is an assist more... I just read til u said that that cuz clearly u dont know what your talkin about and reading any more of your post would just make me feel stupid. A SLIGHT EDGE IN SCORIGN>?!?!?!?!? OMG........ 5 straight 40 pt games as a rookie breaking Wilt Chamberlains 37 year old record. Bro u seriously are just a homer. I understand you like Derrick Rose, but he is not Allen Iverson. U didn't watch AI play
Well, you clearly didn't even read up until that point, because as I mentioned he played a heavy load of minutes which accumulated more raw stats-and went to per 36 numbers. Iverson's best assists per 36 minutes was 6.8. And similar to Rose this year, Iverson was a good scorer because he took a ton of shots, not because he was a great scorer. Hell the year after his MVP season he took 28 shots a game to score 31 points. Sure, he lead the league in scoring, but it was at under 40% shooting.


By the way, stats sitting right in front of me, you're wrong.

Iverson averaged over 7 assists in a season 5 times, not 8. And in 3 of those seasons he led the league in minutes played (other two times he was still over 40 minutes/game).

redwhitenblue
04-11-2011, 04:07 PM
A.I was a decent player. LOL

Dude was unstoppable and I still remember his 45 foot bounce pass between Grant Hill's legs on the fast break while he was with Detroit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3cqnW_lgt0



Derrick Rose is kind of the same player and he might be better than A.I although that will be very hard to do.

I'd take Iverson because he could literally drop 45-50 on any given night.
That's just a bad play by Hill, that should be an easy turnover.

Iverson was unstoppable in the fact that you couldn't stop him from shooting until he scored. But you could certainly go at that team and let AI throw up all the shots he wants.

DoJoTheSlasher
04-11-2011, 04:11 PM
That's just a bad play by Hill, that should be an easy turnover.

Iverson was unstoppable in the fact that you couldn't stop him from shooting until he scored. But you could certainly go at that team and let AI throw up all the shots he wants.

C'mon man, it doesn't change the fact that he was arguably the greatest scorer of all time and he would cross you or break your ankles at ease. Yeah he was a ballhog but still, 50 points was never out of the question. If you held him to 28-30, it was an accomplishment.

And I like Derrick Rose by the way.

WickedBadMan
04-11-2011, 04:14 PM
That's just a bad play by Hill, that should be an easy turnover.

Iverson was unstoppable in the fact that you couldn't stop him from shooting until he scored. But you could certainly go at that team and let AI throw up all the shots he wants.

Jesus

KG2TB
04-11-2011, 04:15 PM
I've bittin my tounge for a while now, but these Bull's fans are starting to piss me off & are starting to make me dislike Rose.

You would really not like a player because of a handful of homers? Interesting.

redwhitenblue
04-11-2011, 04:17 PM
C'mon man, it doesn't change the fact that he was arguably the greatest scorer of all time and he would cross you or break your ankles at ease. Yeah he was a ballhog but still, 50 points was never out of the question. If you held him to 28-30, it was an accomplishment.

And I like Derrick Rose by the way.
Wow, now we're talking about AI as the greatest scorer of all time?

Really?

The guy couldn't shoot! He just chucked up so many shots that he eventually got his points. He had 2 seasons shooting over 45%, his second year and his 3rd to last season (probably his best). He had 7 seasons shooting 42% or less, in 5 of those he was throwing up 22+ attempts a game.

redwhitenblue
04-11-2011, 04:18 PM
Jesus
Watch the play. The ball is thrown 30 feet and Hill literally is watching it as he stretches his legs for the pass to go through.

Redbull
04-11-2011, 04:19 PM
Rose>Iverson. Rose is more of a complete basketball player.

Rivera
04-11-2011, 04:23 PM
:laugh: at these bulls fans.....

they have become worse than miami fans when miami first got lebron :laugh:

AI is a top 50 player of all time.....rose isnt yet so how could you take rose over ai???

AI was actually one of the best 3 players in his era and actually DEFINED an era when rose isnt a top 3 player (currently) or he hasnt defined an era (yet)

so how can you take rose over ai??? :confused:
:confused:

WickedBadMan
04-11-2011, 04:24 PM
Watch the play. The ball is thrown 30 feet and Hill literally is watching it as he stretches his legs for the pass to go through.

Must be watching different play then. I see a ball getting thrown so hard it pretty much crosses the entire court in 1 second, and so low to the ground that the only thing to cross Grant Hill's mind during that second to try and get to it is to kick it.

Edit: And I am not even convinced one way or the other who would do better on the Bulls, just couldn't help but comment on that "easy TO".

redwhitenblue
04-11-2011, 04:25 PM
:laugh: at these bulls fans.....

they have become worse than miami fans when miami first got lebron :laugh:

AI is a top 50 player of all time.....rose isnt yet so how could you take rose over ai???

AI was actually one of the best 3 players in his era and actually DEFINED an era when rose isnt a top 3 player (currently) or he hasnt defined an era (yet)

so how can you take rose over ai??? :confused:
:confused:
So which was AI better than in that era than Kobe, Duncan, Shaq?

AI a top 50 player all-time? Wow. Basketball was around before 1990.

Doogolas
04-11-2011, 04:29 PM
:laugh: at these bulls fans.....

they have become worse than miami fans when miami first got lebron :laugh:

AI is a top 50 player of all time.....rose isnt yet so how could you take rose over ai???

AI was actually one of the best 3 players in his era and actually DEFINED an era when rose isnt a top 3 player (currently) or he hasnt defined an era (yet)

so how can you take rose over ai??? :confused:
:confused:

Like I said a few pages back, I would take Rose because I don't see any way in hell that Iverson puts up with Thibs. No way in hell. He could barely put up with some of the better communicating coaches out there, let alone Thibs, who is quite possibly the most demanding coach in the NBA. The guys is completely nuts. I have literally only seen him sit down twice all year and I've watched every Bulls game. He's always out of his seat *****ing out the players and telling them what they need to do.

No way in hell Iverson would deal with that ****.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
04-11-2011, 04:30 PM
Well, you clearly didn't even read up until that point, because as I mentioned he played a heavy load of minutes which accumulated more raw stats-and went to per 36 numbers. Iverson's best assists per 36 minutes was 6.8. And similar to Rose this year, Iverson was a good scorer because he took a ton of shots, not because he was a great scorer. Hell the year after his MVP season he took 28 shots a game to score 31 points. Sure, he lead the league in scoring, but it was at under 40% shooting.


By the way, stats sitting right in front of me, you're wrong.

Iverson averaged over 7 assists in a season 5 times, not 8. And in 3 of those seasons he led the league in minutes played (other two times he was still over 40 minutes/game).

I rounded up. bro. from the high 6's so me being 0.2 asissts off still doesn't prove u right in anything... So what if AI played more minutes... compare just as a rookie (i dont even kno why I'm wasting my time on u) , because if we compare any more seasons, you'll lose the argument even more then u already have. so ill be nice, and give you the benefit of the doubt.

DRose:
17 PPG
.8 Steals Per Game
6 APG
37 MPG

AI:
23 PPG
2 SPG
7.5 APG
40 MPG

Now, I may be wrong but I doubt it... IF Rose plaed 3 more mins, Derrick Rose would not score 6 more points, get 2 steals, he could problley dish out an assist. But like I said I could be wrong.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
04-11-2011, 04:30 PM
:laugh: at these bulls fans.....

they have become worse than miami fans when miami first got lebron :laugh:

AI is a top 50 player of all time.....rose isnt yet so how could you take rose over ai???

AI was actually one of the best 3 players in his era and actually DEFINED an era when rose isnt a top 3 player (currently) or he hasnt defined an era (yet)

so how can you take rose over ai??? :confused:
:confused:

thank you. :clap: Maybe the Bull's fans will listen to you... cuz they damn sure don't listen to me.

redwhitenblue
04-11-2011, 04:32 PM
I rounded up. bro. from the high 6's
He has one other season of 6.8

Next highest is 6.2 and mid 5's


Where'd you get the other's? You said 8, there are 5 and one just below. Unless you decided his half season in Philly and Denver each counted as one full season in '06-'07?

bringinwood
04-11-2011, 04:39 PM
I'll take AI even though they are eerily similiar...

The reason is simple... AI may have worse advanced metrics... Rose may be more efficient... However, AI took Dikembe Mutumbo and a bunch of scrubs to the finals...

The day I believe Rose could catapult that 01 Sixer's squad to the NBA finals is the day I vote for him over Iverson...

Rose plays with much better player's and I think it's an underrated aspect for why certain player's get better stats when we compare player A to player B...

Rivera
04-11-2011, 04:49 PM
Like I said a few pages back, I would take Rose because I don't see any way in hell that Iverson puts up with Thibs. No way in hell. He could barely put up with some of the better communicating coaches out there, let alone Thibs, who is quite possibly the most demanding coach in the NBA. The guys is completely nuts. I have literally only seen him sit down twice all year and I've watched every Bulls game. He's always out of his seat *****ing out the players and telling them what they need to do.

No way in hell Iverson would deal with that ****.

:facepalm:

i hate giving facepalms but hold on

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:


you do realize AI played for larry brown who probably demands more from players than thibs right????

larry brown is only known for breaking down players and building them back up


:facepalm:

DLeeicious
04-11-2011, 04:51 PM
I've bittin my tounge for a while now, but these Bull's fans are starting to piss me off & are starting to make me dislike Rose.

Well if you dislike Rose then I officially dislike the Rams.

Your move.

pd7631
04-11-2011, 04:52 PM
Why do some people keep saying that AI couldn't deal with Thibs as his coach? Obviously AI has had his problems with coaches, but what makes Thibodeau any more of a hard *** than LARRY BROWN? Like I said in my first post, if AI was in the same frame of mind as 01', then Thibs coaching him would not be a problem.

pd7631
04-11-2011, 04:53 PM
:facepalm:

i hate giving facepalms but hold on

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm: :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:


you do realize AI played for larry brown who probably demands more from players than thibs right????

larry brown is only known for breaking down players and building them back up


:facepalm:

Ha, I basically just made the same point, sorry I didn't see this first. You're totally on point with this.

bringinwood
04-11-2011, 04:53 PM
Like I said a few pages back, I would take Rose because I don't see any way in hell that Iverson puts up with Thibs. No way in hell. He could barely put up with some of the better communicating coaches out there, let alone Thibs, who is quite possibly the most demanding coach in the NBA. The guys is completely nuts. I have literally only seen him sit down twice all year and I've watched every Bulls game. He's always out of his seat *****ing out the players and telling them what they need to do.

No way in hell Iverson would deal with that ****.

Quite possibly one of the worst posts i've ever encountered in these forums...


Iverson was picked over Larry Brown and if AI were on the Bulls, the Bulls would have picked him over Thibs as well...

That is probably the least relevant point anyone could possibly make though as it has zero insight into the play of the players or why their respective teams were or are accomplishing what they are accomplishing...

pd7631
04-11-2011, 04:56 PM
So which was AI better than in that era than Kobe, Duncan, Shaq?

AI a top 50 player all-time? Wow. Basketball was around before 1990.

#39 right here.... http://www.slamonline.com/online/the-magazine/features/2009/06/the-new-top-50/

pd7631
04-11-2011, 04:59 PM
it's true.

A.I defined an era, and if you didn't like him, too bad, you got left behind.

He was THE man in the NBA in the early 2000's. Not Kobe, it was all about A.I and he was the clear MVP.

He's a legend in Philly, I don't remember an athlete who captivated a city more than A.I since 2000 onward. Every little kid in Philly got cornrows and tried to crossover and drive like A.I. He inspired every little guy out there that it was possible to acheive greatness in a game made for giants. I've never seen anyone want to win more and throw his body around with reckless abandon for the good of his team.

A.I dove for loose balls, he made incredible hustle plays, all while leading the NBA in minutes for 3 straight years while being the smallest pure scorer in the league. People who never watched him assumed he was lazy didn't give a ****, they couldn't be anymore ignorant. MANY TIMES on this board I've seen people say they've never seen A.I hustle? A.I played at full speed, non-stop, every game. He almost tried to hard because he'd always cheat on defense and get burnt trying to pick off every pass he could get his hands on.

He's not the brightest tool in the shed. His mom was only 14 when she gave birth to him so he didn't have anyone to look up to growing up and he has made his fair share of mistakes. Je had to take care of himself and that's where his ego comes from, he has trouble trusting people.

Say what you want about him (it will probably be negative), but don't forget that this was one of the greatest/unique players of all time.

People say he's selfish and he shot a low percentage.

Yeah, for his career he averaged 25.6 ppg, on .451% shooting with only 4.7 dimes a game.....

Oh wait, that's Kobe.... yes Kobe has the rings, but it's not like A.I is T-Mac here, A.I led his team to finals and was able to get past the first round 3 times.

A.I's numbers? 26.7 ppg, on .425 shooting with 6.2 dimes a game.

A.I was also 6" and 50 pounds smaller than Kobe, of course he's gonna miss a few more shots

Is that 3% difference in shooting percentage enough to seperate someone who is deemed unselfish from someone who many believe is the most selfish player of all time??? Now that just doesn't seem fair. A.I even had more assists than Kobe, and they were legit dimes.

If anyone else got 33 ppg while still managing 7.4 apg on .45%FG in 05-06 like A.I did, they would get nothing but praise for managing to get so many dimes while scoring. When an A.I hater sees that, they say he got the assists by default for being the go-to guy? (I've heard that said MANY times) ARE YOU SERIOUS? does anyone say that about Lebron? No. They praise him for being a great passer. A.I made some ridiculous passes too, but somehow some ignorant *** fans turn that into a negative for A.I? It's almost like arguing with a child.

but A.I has cornrows and tattoes, he's an easy scapegoat and always has been, the media and ignorant fans love to destroy this guy.

you either hate a.i or you love him and there's no getting around it. Don't even try to debate this post, because there no one will ever change their stance on A.I... just the way it is.

That's it and that's all......best post in this thread.

Doogolas
04-11-2011, 05:00 PM
Here's the thing, at most, Larry Brown could demand an equal amount to Thibs. Because Thibs literally *****es people out 24/7 on the court. Refs have to push him off the court almost every single game.

Furthermore, Brown wasn't a rookie head coach or a first year coach of the 76ers in 2000-2001. Iverson had already dealt with his ***. You really believe Iverson would put up with that same **** from a rookie coach? **** no. There is no way in hell.

Chi City23
04-11-2011, 05:01 PM
Rose hasn't even played 3 full seasons in the NBA yet and people want to compare him to proven guys?? What if this postseason Rose leads the Bulls to the Finals and they take the Western Champs to 7 games win or lose, then what?? Would you take AI? What if Rose and the Bulls get eliminated in the 1st round, then would you take AI?? Lets play this season out and see where Rose and the Bulls end up in the playoffs then discuss all you want.

It's ridiculous to count Rose's first 2 postseason and compare them to this year and think he's the same player he was last year. This thread is just plain stupid.

Hustlenomics
04-11-2011, 05:02 PM
Rose at 22 years old is already way better than a Hall of Famer. Just when I thought I seen it all

Crackadalic
04-11-2011, 05:03 PM
#39 right here.... http://www.slamonline.com/online/the-magazine/features/2009/06/the-new-top-50/

Slam magazine is not credible at all just to let you know

pd7631
04-11-2011, 05:05 PM
Slam magazine is not credible at all just to let you know

It was one example, but if you look around you'll find that AI is thought of as a Top 50 All Time player in almost every one of these lists.

Swashcuff
04-11-2011, 05:08 PM
So which was AI better than in that era than Kobe, Duncan, Shaq?

AI a top 50 player all-time? Wow. Basketball was around before 1990.

I have seen Allen Iverson's name in almost every top 50 list I've ever witnessed. In those that he is not included is he seen as a fringe top 50 or about.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/ratings.cgi

According to BBall reference's Elo Rating he's 51 all time but they also have Dwyane Wade at 28 while LeBron James is 41. Kobe isn't even in the top 10 and all these will differ according to who you ask. He is top 50 on most lists however this is one of the few exceptions I've ever come across, I also have him in the top 50 in mine.

Gram
04-11-2011, 05:08 PM
Rose and it's not close. How many more games could this team possibly win? They are 60 and 20 with long term injuries to Boozer and Noah.

Also could you imagine Thibs working well with Iverson???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI

Quoted fromma die hard Bulls fan. What if Iverson spent almost his entire career in Chitown as opposed to Philly?

Swashcuff
04-11-2011, 05:09 PM
It was one example, but if you look around you'll find that AI is thought of as a Top 50 All Time player in almost every one of these lists.

Indeed.

Chi City23
04-11-2011, 05:09 PM
Rose at 22 years old is already way better than a Hall of Famer. Just when I thought I seen it all

Thats exactly my point.. you can't compare them and say AI > Rose or vise versa. This is Rose's 3rd season and this is the 1st time he's been a favorite in the playoffs so until we see how he handles it and if he lives up to the hype we can't compare the 2.

But if you were to ask me who I THINK we'll be better after Rose's career is over I'll predict Rose just because of his work ethic, he's coachable and seeing how he's improved year after year.

Rivera
04-11-2011, 05:09 PM
Here's the thing, at most, Larry Brown could demand an equal amount to Thibs. Because Thibs literally *****es people out 24/7 on the court. Refs have to push him off the court almost every single game.

Furthermore, Brown wasn't a rookie head coach or a first year coach of the 76ers in 2000-2001. Iverson had already dealt with his ***. You really believe Iverson would put up with that same **** from a rookie coach? **** no. There is no way in hell.


yea because thibs is a much better coach than larry brown :facepalm:

just stop please just stop....i watched thibs as an assistant and boston and i knew he was gonna be a great coach....i like thibs and i give him more credit for the bulls turn around then rose because of chicagos DEFENSE and thats a credit soley to thibs and his schemes......he invented all the defensive schemes boston still uses today...but just stop

thibs does not demand more from players than larry brown :facepalm:


Rose at 22 years old is already way better than a Hall of Famer. Just when I thought I seen it all

:laugh: :laugh:

and dont forget....coach Thibs is already a better coach that Larry Brown

:laugh: :laugh:

3RDASYSTEM
04-11-2011, 05:21 PM
Yo REDWHITENBLUE ask yourself this since you been watching the NBA game for a long while, when did a coach/GM-Franchise take a Super undersized SG and make him their no.1-4 scoring options,not 1 or 4 but #1,2,3 and 4th option all in ONE? How can somebody carry a 22+ per game attempt load at that size and teams game planning solely for 1 player, is their team lacked of OFF talent maybe or is AI that good or a lethal dose of both? how can a guy that small getting ''JORDAN RULES'' get those shots off, and also why would you 'JORDAN RULES' a guy who's well under 6ft on any level let alone at the highest level,NBA? When comparing Superstars you got to take into the 'help' factor, and once again AI wins that by a landslide, ROSE/DENG/NOAH/BOOZER/BREWER/KORVER/GIBSON trumps AI/MCKIE/SNOW/LYNCH/HILL/MUTOMBO/JONES (and any other starting 5 during his 10yr stay there)especially in the category where AI needed it in 01..OFFENSE

Its just funny that Rose is putting up AI's rookie stats for this yrs MVP award, yea i didnt know that 23.5 and 7.5 were 'MVP' type numbers,guess AI learned the hard way even after putting up 33ppg and damn near 8 dimes per in one of his underrated seasons

PhillyFaninLA
04-11-2011, 05:25 PM
Some of you people are either Iverson haters, don't have basketball knowledge, or didn't watch him play.

Iverson is debateably the best little man in NBA history. He was faster then the guys on his team, there was not a defender that was able to slow him up, players, even elite players did not try and drive on him.

Iverson is a first bout hall of famer, there is no question that Iverson had issues, but aside from Kobe, Jordan, and Lebron I don't see any player that came close do putting a team on there back the way Iverson could.

In sports there is a time to use stats and there is a time you use your eyes. If you watched AI for most of career and think he's not one of the best players of all time (not top 10 but a hall of famer for sure) then you do not know basketball. He is also one of the great heart guys of all time, I don't know of any player in any sport that played with all the injuries he did.

PhillyFaninLA
04-11-2011, 05:28 PM
.

Doogolas
04-11-2011, 05:34 PM
yea because thibs is a much better coach than larry brown :facepalm:

just stop please just stop....i watched thibs as an assistant and boston and i knew he was gonna be a great coach....i like thibs and i give him more credit for the bulls turn around then rose because of chicagos DEFENSE and thats a credit soley to thibs and his schemes......he invented all the defensive schemes boston still uses today...but just stop

thibs does not demand more from players than larry brown :facepalm:



:laugh: :laugh:

and dont forget....coach Thibs is already a better coach that Larry Brown

:laugh: :laugh:

When exactly did I say Thibs was better? I said Thibs is as or more demanding than Larry Brown because all Thibs does is basketball. That's it. He lives and breathes it. He eats, breathes and sleeps basketball. He isn't married, he's not with anybody, he has no kids. He has nothing but basketball and he expects everyone else to pretty much be the same way.

Iverson would not deal with that ****. I highly doubt he'd put up with a rookie coach calling him at 1AM to talk strategy. Or dealing with Thibs yelling "TRY HARDER" at him constantly during every game. I severely, severely doubt it.

I never said Thibs > Brown, I said Thibs is probably more demanding, that's not necessarily a good thing. It works because Rose is pretty much the same way, where all he gives a **** about is basketball basically, but Iverson would, I'm betting, not put up with that ****.

I'm literally not calling Rose better than Iverson, I'm not. I'm also not saying Thibs > Brown, not at all.

What I'm saying is, that Rose + Thibs > Iverson + Thibs.

That doesn't mean that Iverson + Brown is not > Rose + Thibs, but the question wasn't "Rose on the 2000-2001 Sixers" it was Iverson on this year's Bulls.

I do not think Iverson would have dealt with a rookie coach like Thibs well. And I think the Bulls would be worse off for that reason and that reason alone.

3RDASYSTEM
04-11-2011, 05:36 PM
When people go and look back at the roster(s) AI shouldered during Philly and he could have won 60 games that MVP season if he had played the remaining 5 games sitting at 56-21 wins then they will understand,thats simply amazing no matter how weak the 'Eastern' Conference may have been, and he won like 49-50games the yr before with McCullough/Geiger as his starting Big men and took SHAQ's unaminous league MVP away stealing 1 vote(smart media guy for once),

PhillyFaninLA
04-11-2011, 05:38 PM
When exactly did I say Thibs was better? I said Thibs is as or more demanding than Larry Brown because all Thibs does is basketball. That's it. He lives and breathes it. He eats, breathes and sleeps basketball. He isn't married, he's not with anybody, he has no kids. He has nothing but basketball and he expects everyone else to pretty much be the same way.

Iverson would not deal with that ****. I highly doubt he'd put up with a rookie coach calling him at 1AM to talk strategy. Or dealing with Thibs yelling "TRY HARDER" at him constantly during every game. I severely, severely doubt it.

I never said Thibs > Brown, I said Thibs is probably more demanding, that's not necessarily a good thing. It works because Rose is pretty much the same way, where all he gives a **** about is basketball basically, but Iverson would, I'm betting, not put up with that ****.

I'm literally not calling Rose better than Iverson, I'm not. I'm also not saying Thibs > Brown, not at all.

What I'm saying is, that Rose + Thibs > Iverson + Thibs.

That doesn't mean that Iverson + Brown is not > Rose + Thibs, but the question wasn't "Rose on the 2000-2001 Sixers" it was Iverson on this year's Bulls.

I do not think Iverson would have dealt with a rookie coach like Thibs well. And I think the Bulls would be worse off for that reason and that reason alone.



You know nothing and I mean NOTHING about Iverson if you think for even a second you'd ever here anyone question his work ethic game day.....that is by far the single most ignorant comment made in this topic.

You can have your opinion but base it on actually understanding a player.

allSUAVE
04-11-2011, 05:43 PM
that's is an interesting question man ,wow . I Absolutely love both players. i just love scorers

NYKnicksSon
04-11-2011, 05:43 PM
to sum all of this up,iverson will always be the better player and he shouldn't be compared to a kid with 1 great season.iverson has a chance to add to his legacy by joining the Knicks next season and winning his first ring.

Doogolas
04-11-2011, 05:43 PM
You know nothing and I mean NOTHING about Iverson if you think for even a second you'd ever here anyone question his work ethic game day.....that is by far the single most ignorant comment made in this topic.

You can have your opinion but base it on actually understanding a player.

Thibs doesn't question Rose's work ethic. But he still yells "TRY HARDER" at ****ing everyone on the team, CONSTANTLY. Thibs WOULD yell that at Iverson like he yells it at every single player.

Stop being so sensitive, I wasn't talking about Iverson at all there. I was talking about something Thibs does, all the time, every game. He is constantly telling everybody to "Try harder" even if they're giving 110%, ****, you could hear him doing it in a game a few weeks back vs Toronto when Rose brought the Bulls back singlehandedly in the fourth quarter.

He is ALWAYS doing it. Stop being so defensive about Iverson and read what I'm saying.

flips333
04-11-2011, 05:44 PM
You know nothing and I mean NOTHING about Iverson if you think for even a second you'd ever here anyone question his work ethic game day.....that is by far the single most ignorant comment made in this topic.

You can have your opinion but base it on actually understanding a player.

I think people would question his ability to be coached. He was a great player no doubt but would he buy into ta system designed by a first year coach. I don't think so.

For this bulls team what makes Rose indispensable is the fact that he bought in so fast to the system, as the leader of the Bulls they all followed suit.

Rose and Iverson are similar talents, but I doubt that Rose will flame out the way Iverson did. Because I don't see Rose missing team meetings and practices... and sowing so much discontent.

PhillyFaninLA
04-11-2011, 05:45 PM
Thibs doesn't question Rose's work ethic. But he still yells "TRY HARDER" at ****ing everyone on the team, CONSTANTLY. Thibs WOULD yell that at Iverson like he yells it at every single player.

Stop being so sensitive, I wasn't talking about Iverson at all there. I was talking about something Thibs does, all the time, every game. He is constantly telling everybody to "Try harder" even if they're giving 110%, ****, you could hear him doing it in a game a few weeks back vs Toronto when Rose brought the Bulls back singlehandedly in the fourth quarter.

He is ALWAYS doing it. Stop being so defensive about Iverson and read what I'm saying.


I'll stop being defensive when you stop being blind.

Rosh
04-11-2011, 05:47 PM
Rose, soooo bad.

flips333
04-11-2011, 05:48 PM
Some of you people are either Iverson haters, don't have basketball knowledge, or didn't watch him play.

Iverson is debateably the best little man in NBA history. He was faster then the guys on his team, there was not a defender that was able to slow him up, players, even elite players did not try and drive on him.

Iverson is a first bout hall of famer, there is no question that Iverson had issues, but aside from Kobe, Jordan, and Lebron I don't see any player that came close do putting a team on there back the way Iverson could.

In sports there is a time to use stats and there is a time you use your eyes. If you watched AI for most of career and think he's not one of the best players of all time (not top 10 but a hall of famer for sure) then you do not know basketball. He is also one of the great heart guys of all time, I don't know of any player in any sport that played with all the injuries he did.

Except, Shaq, Nash, Hakeem, Duncan, Bird, Magic, Wilkins etc. etc. etc.

Iverson was a talented player that was kind of a jerk... I liken him to Carmello.

Doogolas
04-11-2011, 05:48 PM
What am I being blind to? Thibs is a ****ing psycho. He's a very, very, very great coach, and I'm super happy to have him, but he's still completely nuts. He expects all of his players to play better than they are, regardless of how great a game they're having.

Rose could be 10/10 with 40 points and Thibs would still tell him to try harder.

I literally didn't even say anything about Iverson's work ethic and you got defensive over it. Don't. Because I don't question Iverson's drive to win games, not at all. But that's why I'm saying Iverson wouldn't deal with Thibs. I think Iverson would get pissed at Thibs constantly telling him to try harder while he's out there giving 110% every second of every game for over 40 minutes a game. I think Iverson would go ******* with Thibs doing that ****.

PhillyFaninLA
04-11-2011, 05:50 PM
Except, Shaq, Nash, Hakeem, Duncan, Bird, Magic, Wilkins etc. etc. etc.

Iverson was a talented player that was kind of a jerk... I liken him to Carmello.


I like how you didn't bold Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron....that might hurt your argument.....I'm done being bated by close minded Iverson haters that probably didn't watch him play....I'm moving on.

DeadlyVeyerus31
04-11-2011, 05:53 PM
Is it just me or am I just missing the point of this thread :confused:

Doogolas
04-11-2011, 05:53 PM
Iverson hater? I have three Iverson jerseys. I have a Philly jersey, a Nuggets jersey and a ****ing Detroit Iverson jersey. I'm the last person that would hate on Iverson. I ****ing love the man. When I played basketball on the playground when I was little, Iverson was the guy I was. In NBA games, I always got him on my team. But that has nothing to do with how I think he'd handle Thibs. And I don't think it would go over well.

flips333
04-11-2011, 05:53 PM
I like how you didn't bold Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron....that might hurt your argument.....I'm done being bated by close minded Iverson haters that probably didn't watch him play....I'm moving on.

I'm close minded cause I don't agree with you? that sounds... well the only word I can think of is closeminded.

Rivera
04-11-2011, 06:03 PM
When exactly did I say Thibs was better? I said Thibs is as or more demanding than Larry Brown because all Thibs does is basketball. That's it. He lives and breathes it. He eats, breathes and sleeps basketball. He isn't married, he's not with anybody, he has no kids. He has nothing but basketball and he expects everyone else to pretty much be the same way.

Iverson would not deal with that ****. I highly doubt he'd put up with a rookie coach calling him at 1AM to talk strategy. Or dealing with Thibs yelling "TRY HARDER" at him constantly during every game. I severely, severely doubt it.

I never said Thibs > Brown, I said Thibs is probably more demanding, that's not necessarily a good thing. It works because Rose is pretty much the same way, where all he gives a **** about is basketball basically, but Iverson would, I'm betting, not put up with that ****.

I'm literally not calling Rose better than Iverson, I'm not. I'm also not saying Thibs > Brown, not at all.

What I'm saying is, that Rose + Thibs > Iverson + Thibs.

That doesn't mean that Iverson + Brown is not > Rose + Thibs, but the question wasn't "Rose on the 2000-2001 Sixers" it was Iverson on this year's Bulls.

I do not think Iverson would have dealt with a rookie coach like Thibs well. And I think the Bulls would be worse off for that reason and that reason alone.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: can you at least let the bulls make it to the finals once before you post ******** things??? really???

and who cares if iverson would have put up with thibs is crap....he put up with larry browns crap and larry brown is just as hard if not harder on players than coach thibs

after all larry brown is only known for BREAKING DOWN PLAYERS AND BUILDING THEM BACK UP :rolleyes:

just stop please cause you are now you are starting to embarrass your self

Doogolas
04-11-2011, 06:04 PM
Glad to know I'm not entitled to an opinion.

pd7631
04-11-2011, 06:06 PM
Glad to know I'm not entitled to an opinion.

lol

smith&wesson
04-11-2011, 06:10 PM
allen iverson career stats
26.7 points per game on 42.5% FG 6.2 assists per game 2.2 steals 3.7 rebounds

derrick rose career stats
20.9 points per game on 46.8 % FG 6.7 assists per game 0.9 steals 3.9 rebounds

-Iverson leads on points by alot, and steals as well.
-Rose has the better FG%
-Assists per game and rebounds per game are almost identical.

Im gonna go with iverson in his prime. becuase his career stats were tainted based on the last three seasons in the league where he was on a decline.

flips333
04-11-2011, 06:13 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: can you at least let the bulls make it to the finals once before you post ******** things??? really???

and who cares if iverson would have put up with thibs is crap....he put up with larry browns crap and larry brown is just as hard if not harder on players than coach thibs

after all larry brown is only known for BREAKING DOWN PLAYERS AND BUILDING THEM BACK UP :rolleyes:

just stop please cause you are now you are starting to embarrass your self

I'll say it Rose > Iverson.

PS.... I think there are some emoticons you didn't use.

SteveNash
04-11-2011, 06:15 PM
Bulls would be a couple of games worse with AI, but they might fare a bit better in the playoffs.

Crackadalic
04-11-2011, 06:22 PM
To be fair AI had to score more because he had no scoring options. D-rose is the same thing but nowhere near as bad.

kjoke
04-11-2011, 06:22 PM
Give me iverson, more dominate imo

smith&wesson
04-11-2011, 06:23 PM
Except, Shaq, Nash, Hakeem, Duncan, Bird, Magic, Wilkins etc. etc. etc.

Iverson was a talented player that was kind of a jerk... I liken him to Carmello.

you can say allen iverson was kind of a jerk, but thats an assumption. you do not know the player personally.

and all the players you just mentioned had power house teams stacked with talent that iverson never had in his prime with philidelphia. the two most talented players iverson ever played with on an nba team were mutumbo & melo. He took the 76ers to the finals with mutumbo. And iverson was on the decline already when he was traded to the nuggets to play with melo, that was the begining of the end of iversons career.

im sorry but you made poor comparisons. Im not a huge allen iverson fan but the man was a great player in his prime and you can not discredit him for the things he has acompomlished playing on very average teams through out his career.

justinnum1
04-11-2011, 06:24 PM
you can replace rose with kyle lowry and they would have a similar record, bulls fans will underrate every other player to make it seem like rose does it all. But replace rose with iverson and they are probably favorites.

pd7631
04-11-2011, 06:27 PM
you can replace rose with kyle lowry and they would have a similar record, bulls fans will underrate every other player to make it seem like rose does it all. But replace rose with iverson and they are probably favorites.

That's just absurd. Rose is a great player and well deserving of the MVP in my opinion. Obviously being a Heat fan you feel hatred towards the Bulls (totally understandable for fans of both teams), but c'mon man.

justinnum1
04-11-2011, 06:29 PM
That's just absurd. Rose is a great player and well deserving of the MVP in my opinion. Obviously being a Heat fan you feel hatred towards the Bulls (totally understandable for fans of both teams), but c'mon man.

I didnt say he doesn't deserve the mvp. Winning the mvp doesn't mean a whole lt this year since the field is weak. I believe the bulls success has a lot more to do with their team defense than rose.

smith&wesson
04-11-2011, 06:31 PM
When you think about it d rose ad AI in his prime are very similar players.

-freakishly athletic
-extreamly fast
-both really excell at scoring, and both could be or could have been better at distributing the basketball.

I think the biggest difference between them is atitude. iverson always had a chip on his shoulder where d rose seams more level headed.

jneises21
04-11-2011, 06:46 PM
The bulls would be better off with the Iverson of the '01 season...

But I would take Rose in his third season over Iverson in his third

8kobe24
04-11-2011, 06:50 PM
This team will not be better. Rose has a different impact on this team than the 2001 Iverson did on his. Rose has more of an all around impact. Iverson was mostly scoring and a couple of dimes here and there.

Doogolas
04-11-2011, 06:59 PM
allen iverson career stats
26.7 points per game on 43% FG 6.2 assists per game 2.2 steals 3.7 rebounds

derrick rose career stats
20.9 points per game on 46% FG 6.7 assists per game 0.9 steals 3.9 rebounds

-Iverson leads on points by alot, and steals as well.
-Rose has the better FG%
-Assists per game and rebounds per game are almost identical.

Im gonna go with iverson in his prime. becuase his career stats were tainted based on the last three seasons in the league where he was on a decline.

Iverson also played almost 5 more minutes per game. Of course his per game numbers will be better.

Per 36 minutes Iverson was:
23.3PPG on 42.5% shooting
5.4APG
1.9SPG
3.3RPG
0.2BPG

Rose per 36 in his career thus far is:
20.2PPG on 46.8% shooting
6.5APG
0.8SPG
3.8RPG
0.4BPG

Much, much closer when you look at it that way. But Rose is also only in his third year and is only 22. Iverson came into the league at the age of 21. So it's hardly a fair comparison this early.

PS: I love how you rounded up for Iverson's FG% and down for Rose's FG%, even though Rose is closer to 47% than Iverson is to 43%.

smith&wesson
04-11-2011, 07:01 PM
This team will not be better. Rose has a different impact on this team than the 2001 Iverson did on his. Rose has more of an all around impact. Iverson was mostly scoring and a couple of dimes here and there.

thus far, theyre assists per game are almost identical.

04-05 7.9 apg
05-06 7.4 apg
06-07 7.2 apg
07-08 7.1 apg

wouldnt you say thats a bit more then just one or two assists here and there ???

also iverson WAS THE TEAM when he was in phillie. so i dont know about the impact part either. he had a huge impact on his team. he was the reason they went to the finals..

alot of ppl say iverson was just a scorer, ok well who would you rather shoot the ball if your the coach of the 76ers team, aaron mckie ??

iverson on the decline of his career playing with melo averaged
26.4 points per game 7.1 assists per game in the 07-08 season.

smith&wesson
04-11-2011, 07:03 PM
Iverson also played almost 5 more minutes per game. Of course his per game numbers will be better.

Per 36 minutes Iverson was:
23.3PPG on 42.5% shooting
5.4APG
1.9SPG
3.3RPG
0.2BPG

Rose per 36 in his career thus far is:
20.2PPG on 46.8% shooting
6.5APG
0.8SPG
3.8RPG
0.4BPG

Much, much closer when you look at it that way. But Rose is also only in his third year and is only 22. Iverson came into the league at the age of 21. So it's hardly a fair comparison this early.

PS: I love how you rounded up for Iverson's FG% and down for Rose's FG%, even though Rose is closer to 47% than Iverson is to 43%.

I did no such thing, im just going by what im finding online here. i think they are extreamly close in comparison. havent you read my other posts :confused:

Doogolas
04-11-2011, 07:06 PM
I did no such thing, im just going by what im finding online here. i think they are extreamly close in comparison. havent you read my other posts :confused:

No you're not. There's no way you found a website that rounds 46.8% DOWN to 46% but rounds 42.5% UP to 43%. Websites with stats are programmed to either always round down, always round up or round to nearest _____ where .5 and up rounds up. Please, show me the website that is giving you Iverson at 43% but Rose at 46%, I'd love to see it. Because I severely doubt it exists.

Doogolas
04-11-2011, 07:11 PM
thus far, theyre assists per game are almost identical.

04-05 7.9 apg
05-06 7.4 apg
06-07 7.2 apg
07-08 7.1 apg

wouldnt you say thats a bit more then just one or two assists here and there ???

also iverson WAS THE TEAM when he was in phillie. so i dont know about the impact part either. he had a huge impact on his team. he was the reason they went to the finals..

alot of ppl say iverson was just a scorer, ok well who would you rather shoot the ball if your the coach of the 76ers team, aaron mckie ??

iverson on the decline of his career playing with melo averaged
26.4 points per game 7.1 assists per game in the 07-08 season.

Once again, using APG is outrageously flawed. Let's look at two things:

Assists Per 36 Minutes:
Iverson's career high was 6.8. Career average 5.4.
Rose has 7.5 this year.

Assist Percentage:
Iverson's career high was: 37.6%
Rose has 39.3% this year

Iverson was a great player but he never passed as much as Rose does. And that's not even anything I'm holding against him. It just wasn't his style of play.

smith&wesson
04-11-2011, 07:17 PM
No you're not. There's no way you found a website that rounds 46.8% DOWN to 46% but rounds 42.5% UP to 43%. Websites with stats are programmed to either always round down, always round up or round to nearest _____ where .5 and up rounds up. Please, show me the website that is giving you Iverson at 43% but Rose at 46%, I'd love to see it. Because I severely doubt it exists.

your right my bad bro. i was look at iversons 09-10 season where he shot 43% which is right above career stats. thats my mistake. ill fix it.

you act like i rounded all of roses numbers down and rounded all of iversons numbers up. i made one mistake by a .5 dude and thats been fixed.

ellesmeire
04-11-2011, 07:21 PM
why the ****ing fascination with the bulls? every god damn day a new thread pops up, I think easily they would be about the same...I'd take Rose because of the attitude however

but AI was a boss

smith&wesson
04-11-2011, 07:23 PM
Once again, using APG is outrageously flawed. Let's look at two things:

Assists Per 36 Minutes:
Iverson's career high was 6.8. Career average 5.4.
Rose has 7.5 this year.

Assist Percentage:
Iverson's career high was: 37.6%
Rose has 39.3% this year

Iverson was a great player but he never passed as much as Rose does. And that's not even anything I'm holding against him. It just wasn't his style of play.


im not arguing if APG is flawed. im just comparing career numbers. why are you only comparing roses numbers from this year ?

i personally think they are very close in comparison. but thats my opinion. and im a big d rose fan mind you.

flips333
04-11-2011, 07:23 PM
you can say allen iverson was kind of a jerk, but thats an assumption. you do not know the player personally.

and all the players you just mentioned had power house teams stacked with talent that iverson never had in his prime with philidelphia. the two most talented players iverson ever played with on an nba team were mutumbo & melo. He took the 76ers to the finals with mutumbo. And iverson was on the decline already when he was traded to the nuggets to play with melo, that was the begining of the end of iversons career.

im sorry but you made poor comparisons. Im not a huge allen iverson fan but the man was a great player in his prime and you can not discredit him for the things he has acompomlished playing on very average teams through out his career.

From the new york times

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940CEED81030F931A25754C0A9649C8B 63


"The police have said that the incident occurred early on the morning of July 3, after Iverson had argued with his wife of 11 months, Tawanna Iverson. The fight culminated with Allen Iverson's kicking his naked wife out of their suburban house on July 2, according to a 911 police tape"

He's a jerk. I don't need to know him personally. Any "man" who kicks his wife out naked is in my opinion a jerk. Oh and i could go look up the one where he threatens her with a gun.

I'm not saying he wasn't a great player... hell he belongs in the hall.

DwayneMVPwade
04-11-2011, 07:23 PM
worse

smith&wesson
04-11-2011, 07:25 PM
why the ****ing fascination with the bulls? every god damn day a new thread pops up, I think easily they would be about the same...I'd take Rose because of the attitude however

but AI was a boss

it took maybe 10 posts on my part, but you just said it in one post. i agree.
i think the biggest difference between them is atitude for sure.

njnets
04-11-2011, 07:25 PM
its close. i also thinks its hard to compare the team because of their teammates.

sure, they have similar styles, but look at the roster comparisons. nothing against the guys on the sixers, but the bulls roster has more talent. boozer and noah in the frontcourt compared to the sixers is overwhelming in my opinion.

granted, rose does dominate and will his team to victories like iverson, but rose's supporting cast is much better imo.

i would take rose though because i think he is a better distributor and fits better with this team than iverson would. it is close though and very good observation.

smith&wesson
04-11-2011, 07:28 PM
From the new york times

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940CEED81030F931A25754C0A9649C8B 63


"The police have said that the incident occurred early on the morning of July 3, after Iverson had argued with his wife of 11 months, Tawanna Iverson. The fight culminated with Allen Iverson's kicking his naked wife out of their suburban house on July 2, according to a 911 police tape"

He's a jerk. I don't need to know him personally. Any "man" who kicks his wife out naked is in my opinion a jerk. Oh and i could go look up the one where he threatens her with a gun.

I'm not saying he wasn't a great player... hell he belongs in the hall.


so if the media says its true .. then it must be right ? i dont agree with that at all. you dont know whats going on in his house hold behind closed doors and why they are having these disputes in the first place right??? plus i dont judge players based on personal things. only for basketball related issues.

i agree that his atitude was questionable when it came to basketball for sure. his whole "practice" interview didnt sit well with me, i thought it was pretty ignorant of him to say that. that was a douche bag thing for him to say.

you can say kobe bryant is a jerk because he was acused of rape. you can say toni parker is a jerk because he was acused of adultry, do we really care what these guys do in there personal lives ? i mean im a raptor fan, and if someone said kobe bryant the rapist could play for your team i would still jump for joy.
lol am i wrong for that ?

flips333
04-11-2011, 07:34 PM
so if the media says its true .. then it must be right ? i dont agree with that at all. you dont know whats going on in his house hold behind closed doors and why they are having these disputes in the first place right???

i agree that his atitude was questionable when it came to basketball for sure. his whole "practice" interview didnt sit well with me, i thought it was pretty ignorant of him to say that.

Yeah the new york times just made that up... I don't care what happens you don't throw your wife out in the buff. You don't threaten her with a gun.

_KB24_
04-11-2011, 07:40 PM
Iverson. The guy is the pound-for-pound best scorer of all time. Now if we're talking about inches, Isiah might have a little say in that :laugh2:

I do however want to see how Rose does in the playoffs when the pressure is on him. The past two years he performed good as the underdog. Now as a favorite, I want to see if he can worship his demons from the title game back in 08.

DeadlyVeyerus31
04-11-2011, 07:49 PM
you can replace rose with kyle lowry and they would have a similar record, bulls fans will underrate every other player to make it seem like rose does it all. But replace rose with iverson and they are probably favorites.

Let me guess, you also think that Latrell Sprewell needs 14.4 million a year to feed his family? Do you watch basketball? Kyle Lowery will be just like Aaron Brooks next year. One hit wonder and then he will be shipped off because Goran Dragic is playing better than him. :facepalm:

smith&wesson
04-11-2011, 07:56 PM
Yeah the new york times just made that up... I don't care what happens you don't throw your wife out in the buff. You don't threaten her with a gun.

I'm not saying they made it up. but your talking about the media here, where do they get theyre info from ? the police. where do the police get there story from ? the "victim" whos the victim in this story ? iversons wife, whos story are you hearing ? iversons wife. so there is a dispute and what your hearing of the dispute is one persons versian of the story. whos to say if its true or not ?

if you really think "the new york times" is telling you the truth on a daily basis you should really really stop reading the paper my man. 80% of what you read in the paper or see in the news on tv is BS.

you dont have to believe me brother. but you would be smart too not beleive everything you read in the paper or see on the news..

also can i ask what your arguement is here ? i already said that the biggest difference between the two players is theyre atitude right ??

i mean being a jerk doesnt really express how you feel in regards to iverson and d rose as basketball players. you can say d rose has a better atitude, and i would and have already agreed with you there.

3RDASYSTEM
04-11-2011, 08:49 PM
Since everyone is claiming the Eastern Conference was 'weak' then check out the Big 3 or talent of the playoff squads and tell me where ya rank'em..trust me AI was that good,he had it all off top when it came to skill mix with athletic at highest level,he didnt have to develop nothing but cut down on turnovers,but that comes from having the entire offensive structured around you,Magic/Kidd/Nash all had high TO rates just from having the ball in their hands so much but on the flip side they had high Asst numbers,AI just had a mix of Pts/Asst, just imagine if he would have been in a Nellie/Mike D system from the jump instead of a Larry Brown slow down half court system for over half his time in Philly and still put up 28PPG

Pacers - J.Rose/Miller/J.ONeal
Magic - McGrady/M.Miller/Armstrong
Hornets - B.Davis/Mashburn/P.J.Brown
Raptors - Carter/A.Davis/A.Williams(bunch of been there vets also)
Knicks - Houston/Camby/L.Johnson/Sprewell
Heat - Hardaway/E.Jones/B.Grant/House/A.Mason
Bucks - Cassell/Allen/Robinson/T.Thomas/L.Hunter

Save yourself the time and believe when i say the rest of those playoff teams rosters are better top to bottom,now of course the EAST is tougher now but Rose has the talent to go to war in the EAST, if he had the Pacers of today minus Granger/Hibbert replaced by a Varejao/Joel Pryz combo and take'em to Finals then yea he would be on same level,but we all know that aint happening,nice topic for debate though

boolish
04-11-2011, 09:02 PM
rose practices.
AI talks about practice.

Ask thibs this question and when he gets off the floor after buckling over and rolling around on the floor in laughter for 17 minutes, he will go over to the chalkboard and write DR. :facepalm:

heatking
04-12-2011, 12:17 AM
Just by reading this thread i can assume most of you didnt watch basketball in 2001.

Elbumpy
04-12-2011, 12:58 AM
I didnt say he doesn't deserve the mvp. Winning the mvp doesn't mean a whole lt this year since the field is weak. I believe the bulls success has a lot more to do with their team defense than rose.

Because kobe, Lebron, wade, howard and durant all took the year off? In a thread full of ridiculous statements this is, by far, the worst.

IversonIsKrazy
04-12-2011, 01:48 AM
It's a toss-up. This year of Rose's campaign does honestly remind me of the 00-01 campaign of Iverson. Iverson had a lot less help, wasn't a great team. Had great defense, but on offense, I mean Mutombo just scored off of Iverson's missed lay-ups, while Aaron McKie hit an open shot every now and then. But with a guy like Deng and Boozer, u never know how AI could've played. To be honest I think it would be a toss-up, but if we see Rose carry the Bulls to the finals this year like AI did in '01, well we are in for a real treat this post-season.

cubswin25
04-12-2011, 02:22 AM
you can replace rose with kyle lowry and they would have a similar record, bulls fans will underrate every other player to make it seem like rose does it all. But replace rose with iverson and they are probably favorites.

Wow replace Kyle Lowry and Derrick Rose and have a similar record? I can't remember seeing a comment that was more wrong in a long long time. Obviously you haven't watched many Bulls games this year and seen how Rose has taken over games and gotten the Bulls a win. Kyle Lowry couldn't do that, and it's not even close. Sure if you replace Lowry with Rose, are the Bulls still good? Sure maybe a 47-50 win team, but nowhere close to being a 60 plus win team and championship contender. Also the Bulls are already the favorites in a lot of peoples eyes. Why does having Iverson change that?

Elbumpy
04-12-2011, 02:24 AM
I find it funny how deng wasn't on anyone's radar last year and now everyone in here is talking about him like he's an all-star. The fact that he seemingly elevated his game precisely when rose began putting up MVP numbers and attracting more attention from defenses is strictly coincidence, obviously.

cubswin25
04-12-2011, 02:35 AM
I find it funny how deng wasn't on anyone's radar last year and now everyone in here is talking about him like he's an all-star. The fact that he seemingly elevated his game precisely when rose began putting up MVP numbers and attracting more attention from defenses is strictly coincidence, obviously.

Deng always been a pretty good allstar level player and good defender. He's done some things better this year. But I think a lot of the negative about Deng in the past is because he was expected and paid to be the top guy and star of this team. The Bulls thought Deng was gonna take the next step to be a superstar, when they gave him his contract. So when he didn't take the next step and kept getting hurt his stock fell. But now that Deng is fully healthy, and the 2nd or 3rd option on this team. People are now reminded at how good he is again. IMO he and Rose are the two players this team couldn't afford to lose. Boozer/Noah are important and will be come playoff time. But if Deng misses as much time as Boozer or Noah dd, I don't think they have 60 wins.

Chronz
04-12-2011, 02:36 AM
WOW I cant imagine whats been said in here to go 12 pages deep but its a VERY CLOSE comparison

Elbumpy
04-12-2011, 03:30 AM
Deng always been a pretty good allstar level player and good defender. He's done some things better this year. But I think a lot of the negative about Deng in the past is because he was expected and paid to be the top guy and star of this team. The Bulls thought Deng was gonna take the next step to be a superstar, when they gave him his contract. So when he didn't take the next step and kept getting hurt his stock fell. But now that Deng is fully healthy, and the 2nd or 3rd option on this team. People are now reminded at how good he is again. IMO he and Rose are the two players this team couldn't afford to lose. Boozer/Noah are important and will be come playoff time. But if Deng misses as much time as Boozer or Noah dd, I don't think they have 60 wins.

What he was expected to do and what he's been able to do are two different things. Deng has never been an all-star caliber player. This is far and away the best season of his career and he wasn't an all-star by the most literal definition of the term.

I'm not here to bash deng, though. Hes my second favorite bull. The point I'm trying to make is that it's ridiculous that people are in here trying to discredit drose because his supporting cast includes Loul. Lous stat line should be a testament to what rose has done. Point guards are supposed to improve the pieces around them are they not? That's where AI fell short.

NetsPaint
04-12-2011, 06:41 AM
Rose...........has.........not...........been..... ......in...........the..........second...........r ound.

How do you know this is not going to be Rose's best year?

Stats are absolute **** in a lot of cases. If stats meant anything you people are making it out to be Iverson wouldn't have made the Finals and WON a game against Kobe/Shaq.

Getting to the free-throw line a lot doesn't count with his FG% getting lowered? Are you kidding? Teams HAD to foul him he was so good at finishing.

LOL At people talking about Rose's head touching the rim in this thread. What does that have to do with anything? If you love stats then why not bring out who has the higher vertical leap. Not that it matters.

I like Rose and hope he has a lot of success in his career. Biased fans of his and stat junkies need to realize, Iverson actually got to out of the first round three times and went to the Finals.

NetsPaint
04-12-2011, 06:41 AM
Double-post.

redwhitenblue
04-12-2011, 07:28 AM
Rose...........has.........not...........been..... ......in...........the..........second...........r ound.

How do you know this is not going to be Rose's best year?

Stats are absolute **** in a lot of cases. If stats meant anything you people are making it out to be Iverson wouldn't have made the Finals and WON a game against Kobe/Shaq.

Getting to the free-throw line a lot doesn't count with his FG% getting lowered? Are you kidding? Teams HAD to foul him he was so good at finishing.

LOL At people talking about Rose's head touching the rim in this thread. What does that have to do with anything? If you love stats then why not bring out who has the higher vertical leap. Not that it matters.

I like Rose and hope he has a lot of success in his career. Biased fans of his and stat junkies need to realize, Iverson actually got to out of the first round three times and went to the Finals.
Their vertical is identical, someone else brought up that AI had the better vertical.

Amazing how people have done nothing but trash AI's MVP season all year when comparing it to Rose, saying how Rose's MVP will be the worst next to AI's.

Now AI is a top 50 player who was a fantastic scorer, even though most stats indicate he really wasn't that great of a scorer, he just threw up a lot of shots.

pd7631
04-12-2011, 10:32 AM
Their vertical is identical, someone else brought up that AI had the better vertical.

Amazing how people have done nothing but trash AI's MVP season all year when comparing it to Rose, saying how Rose's MVP will be the worst next to AI's.

Now AI is a top 50 player who was a fantastic scorer, even though most stats indicate he really wasn't that great of a scorer, he just threw up a lot of shots.

Kyle Korver is a great shooter, so does that make him a great scorer? I don't know what stats you want to use to figure out if someone is a great scorer or not, but PPG is a good place to start...

BullsFTW
04-12-2011, 10:58 AM
Comparing Rose to Iverson is such an insult to Rose. Rose is more of a complete player, a better teammate, and a true leader. Stats alone cannot define a player.

Rose>>>>>>>>>>Iverson

MLB2K10King
04-12-2011, 11:03 AM
Rose is more of a complete player then Iverson. I pick rose

AIMelo=KillaDUO
04-12-2011, 11:08 AM
Some of you people are either Iverson haters, don't have basketball knowledge, or didn't watch him play.

Iverson is debateably the best little man in NBA history. He was faster then the guys on his team, there was not a defender that was able to slow him up, players, even elite players did not try and drive on him.

Iverson is a first bout hall of famer, there is no question that Iverson had issues, but aside from Kobe, Jordan, and Lebron I don't see any player that came close do putting a team on there back the way Iverson could.

In sports there is a time to use stats and there is a time you use your eyes. If you watched AI for most of career and think he's not one of the best players of all time (not top 10 but a hall of famer for sure) then you do not know basketball. He is also one of the great heart guys of all time, I don't know of any player in any sport that played with all the injuries he did.


+2515010410! Preach my brother! just leave this AI haters alone cuz thats all they are.

ttam68
04-12-2011, 11:11 AM
Comparing Rose to Iverson is such an insult to Rose. Rose is more of a complete player, a better teammate, and a true leader. Stats alone cannot define a player.

Rose>>>>>>>>>>Iverson

Iverson led a team to the Finals, your boy has had two good seasons. Be a little less ignorant and people wouldn't hate the Bulls so much this year.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 11:11 AM
Their vertical is identical, someone else brought up that AI had the better vertical.

Amazing how people have done nothing but trash AI's MVP season all year when comparing it to Rose, saying how Rose's MVP will be the worst next to AI's.

Now AI is a top 50 player who was a fantastic scorer, even though most stats indicate he really wasn't that great of a scorer, he just threw up a lot of shots.

For someone who has over 70,000 posts you really don't know much else about basketball other than your bulls don't you?

What are these most stats that indicate A.I. wasn't a good scorer? His TS% or his EFG% is that what you are alluding to? So because a player is inefficient that means he is not a good scorer? Well hear what tell that to opposing coaches who's primary goal when matching up against A.I. was to contain him because despite the fact that he was inefficient he was going to get his he was going to accumulate points every night and keep his teams in the game.

To say he wasn't a great scorer means that you obviously didn't watch him play. By your basis Elgin Baylor, Tacy McGrady, George Mikan, John Havlicek, Paul Arizin, Gilbert Arenas etc all weren't great scorers then because they were all inefficient.

MLB2K10King
04-12-2011, 11:17 AM
IMO Iverson played in a weaker Eastern Conference then Rose is playing in now, Rose is more of a complete scorer, his outside shot is way more consistent then Iversons ever was, and he's a way better passer.

ttam68
04-12-2011, 11:22 AM
Rose...........has.........not...........been..... ......in...........the..........second...........r ound.

How do you know this is not going to be Rose's best year?


Amazing how people have done nothing but trash AI's MVP season all year when comparing it to Rose, saying how Rose's MVP will be the worst next to AI's.

Now AI is a top 50 player who was a fantastic scorer, even though most stats indicate he really wasn't that great of a scorer, he just threw up a lot of shots.

Its a simple point. DRose has done nothing but have one good regular season and you want to induct him into the hall of fame.

Dnovakovic099
04-12-2011, 11:54 AM
Both fan bases are wrong here. I actually believe that Rose would be a better fit on the Bulls because Iverson dosen't play well with good teams. You guys cannot forget how ****** Denver was with him, and then when he left he destroyed the Pistons. On the other hand, he led a **** Sixers team to the finals. It is like the Kobe vs. James argument. Give me Kobe any day on a good team because he can shoot and has intangibles such as work ethic and leadership that win championships, but give me James on a **** team because he is dominant and can do everything by himself.

Cornbread12
04-12-2011, 12:13 PM
I'm not here to bash deng, though. Hes my second favorite bull. The point I'm trying to make is that it's ridiculous that people are in here trying to discredit drose because his supporting cast includes Loul. Lous stat line should be a testament to what rose has done. Point guards are supposed to improve the pieces around them are they not? That's where AI fell short.

Too bad A.I. played shooting guard in 2001. Eric Snow was the pg. Listen I LOVE Derrick Rose just as much as Bulls fans. Dude is a stud all day everyday but to say that in his 3rd year he is >>>>>>>> Iverson is the DUMBEST ***** ever. I've been reading this drawn out convo for a while and I just wanna make a few points.

1. Everybody keeps saying how bad the East was in 01' but I believe someone already posted the players that were playing in the East that yearand overall the teams were pretty balanced. Not as weak as many of you think. Nevertheless, how come no one mentions how "strong" the west was to let the Lakers sweep through the conf w/out a single loss. So because A.I. played against teams that actually bothered to compete in the playoffs that makes his run less important? Vince is dropping 50 pt games...the Bucks big 3 of Glenn Rob, Ray Allen, and Cassell ALWAYS balled and we knocked out the Pacers while the West rolled over for Shaq and Kobe.

2. Contrary to popular belief A.I. made a lot of careers. George Lynch was a NOBODY who got a fat contract after leaving Philly...Snow got paid even tho he was azz! Raja Bell got pulled out of D. League and found himself open for all kinds of shots next to AI in the playoffs and made a career. Ppl always talk about AI shooting 42% but if you were 5'11 165 shooting guard and teams double and triple teamed you every night could you manage 31ppg

3. When Rose drops more than 50pts 2x's in one series holla at me. He also had a game with 16 assist passing to the likes of Snow, McKie (he was aight) Lynch, Tyrone Hill, Mutombo (he was cool too). After losing game 1 to the Pacers he responded with 45 pts and 9 assist.

4. Did anybody watch the Finals. dude played his heart out. Game 1 48 pts 6 assist, 5 steals, 5 boards in a win. Rest of the games he kept us in it single handedly. Even had a game with 35 pts and 12 boards...to put that in perspective he had the same number of reb as Mutombo

5. These numbers mean nothing...GO WATCH THE GAMES. It's a dude named pennycw i think on youtube who post the highlights. Watch that man play and then show me where Rose being >>>>>>>> is even a thought.

And last:
Rose >>>>>>> Snow
Iverson<<<<<<Bogans
Deng>Lynch
Boozer>>Tyrone Hill
Mutombo=Noah (or slight edge to Mutombo)


You people need to stop letting Sportscenter dictate how you feel about athletes smh.

Cornbread12
04-12-2011, 12:18 PM
Both fan bases are wrong here. I actually believe that Rose would be a better fit on the Bulls because Iverson dosen't play well with good teams. You guys cannot forget how ****** Denver was with him, and then when he left he destroyed the Pistons. On the other hand, he led a **** Sixers team to the finals. It is like the Kobe vs. James argument. Give me Kobe any day on a good team because he can shoot and has intangibles such as work ethic and leadership that win championships, but give me James on a **** team because he is dominant and can do everything by himself.

First off Denver was fine with AI...Only won about 2 more games with Billups than AI in regular season and I'm pretty sure in the playoffs they ran into a pretty good San Antonio team that proved over the past decade that if they are healthy when the playoffs roll around they win Championships.

Second, how the hell did he destroy the Pistons? Joe Dumars destroyed the Pistons and used AI as a scapegoat. If you were a 1st ballot hall of famer that just got done avging 26 and 7 on a playoff team would you wanna ride the pine for Rodney Stuckey, who by the way still hasn't developed and is still AZZ!!! smh. That team is a joke. They fell apart because of a bad GM, bad coaching hires and personnel decisions. Look at them now. Still horrible!

joeboow90
04-12-2011, 12:47 PM
Some of yall are buggin and are just D-Rose dickriders straight up. "Rose>>>>>>iverson" "rose hands down".....are you on crack? Iverson is a hall of famer one of the best to ever play the game. D-rose has 1 great season and already yall are crowning him....SMFH. i dont dislike Rose at all hes a great player i just hate all these d-rose dickriders man its really annoying.

and for some reason a lot of people hate AI. ill bet some of you didnt even watch him in his prime back in the late 90s early 2000s you just remember him from Denver and detroit

redwhitenblue
04-12-2011, 03:22 PM
Some of yall are buggin and are just D-Rose dickriders straight up. "Rose>>>>>>iverson" "rose hands down".....are you on crack? Iverson is a hall of famer one of the best to ever play the game. D-rose has 1 great season and already yall are crowning him....SMFH. i dont dislike Rose at all hes a great player i just hate all these d-rose dickriders man its really annoying.

and for some reason a lot of people hate AI. ill bet some of you didnt even watch him in his prime back in the late 90s early 2000s you just remember him from Denver and detroit
His best seasons were late in Philly and early in DET, those early seasons you're talking about were just "throw the ball up"


No one's saying he's a bad player, but he was a poor shooter who shot a lot because of his surrounding teammates, and didn't hit a good % of his shots.

Crackadalic
04-12-2011, 03:30 PM
His best seasons were late in Philly and early in DET, those early seasons you're talking about were just "throw the ball up"


No one's saying he's a bad player, but he was a poor shooter who shot a lot because of his surrounding teammates, and didn't hit a good % of his shots.

Look at AI teammates and then look at D-rose teammates. People complaining D-rose being force to score but AI was force to become more of a volume shooter because no one can produce anything from the offensive end. His supporting cast was just a bunch of Defense players who couldnt shoot for ****.

Stats aside AI carried that D-league team in the 5'11 frame of his and shock the world when he single handling stole a game in the finals even though he lost 4 straight after. Im a fan of both players. Watch D-rose in high school and became a big fan in memphis but AI just meant more to his team then D-rose.

Theres no doubt in my mind AI could easily win with D-rose team and even go far in the playoffs.

redwhitenblue
04-12-2011, 03:41 PM
Look at AI teammates and then look at D-rose teammates. People complaining D-rose being force to score but AI was force to become more of a volume shooter because no one can produce anything from the offensive end. His supporting cast was just a bunch of Defense players who couldnt shoot for ****.

Stats aside AI carried that D-league team in the 5'11 frame of his and shock the world when he single handling stole a game in the finals even though he lost 4 straight after. Im a fan of both players. Watch D-rose in high school and became a big fan in memphis but AI just meant more to his team then D-rose.

Theres no doubt in my mind AI could easily win with D-rose team and even go far in the playoffs.
He shot a decent % a couple years while volume shooting and shot horribly other years when not shooting as much

He just wasn't a great natural shooter. He was great at getting to the rim, great on the break and could draw contact very well.

Considering he played PG often and was never great with assists, was too small to rebound and generally played the passing lanes on D (very sporadic D stats). Someone so unrounded cannot be a top 50 player.

AIMelo=KillaDUO
04-12-2011, 03:46 PM
Both fan bases are wrong here. I actually believe that Rose would be a better fit on the Bulls because Iverson dosen't play well with good teams. You guys cannot forget how ****** Denver was with him, and then when he left he destroyed the Pistons. On the other hand, he led a **** Sixers team to the finals. It is like the Kobe vs. James argument. Give me Kobe any day on a good team because he can shoot and has intangibles such as work ethic and leadership that win championships, but give me James on a **** team because he is dominant and can do everything by himself.

What are you talkin about Denver was Sh***y? AI lead the Nugget's to they're brest record since 1976.

He destroyed the Pistons? It wasnt the FO who hired a horrible coach...?

Gosh these AI haters get worse and worse everyday. Even if the Facts are in front of your face they don't listen.

All yall needa hop off DRose's tip.

Cornbread12
04-12-2011, 04:05 PM
He shot a decent % a couple years while volume shooting and shot horribly other years when not shooting as much

He just wasn't a great natural shooter. He was great at getting to the rim, great on the break and could draw contact very well.

Considering he played PG often and was never great with assists, was too small to rebound and generally played the passing lanes on D (very sporadic D stats). Someone so unrounded cannot be a top 50 player.

Whole last paragraph makes it obvious you don't know what you're talking about.

-in 13 yrs he played the point probably 4 seasons at best.

-Derrick Rose avg's 7.8 this year. A.I. avg 7.9 while holding a 33 ppg a whole yr and also avg 7 assist in 6 other seasons as well

-excuse the hell out of him for being 5'11 165 (because that's something he can control) and using his quickness to the lead the league in steals and play the passing lane break the NBA record for most steals in a playoff game.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 04:15 PM
He shot a decent % a couple years while volume shooting and shot horribly other years when not shooting as much

He just wasn't a great natural shooter. He was great at getting to the rim, great on the break and could draw contact very well.

Considering he played PG often and was never great with assists, was too small to rebound and generally played the passing lanes on D (very sporadic D stats). Someone so unrounded cannot be a top 50 player.

Tell me of someone who is more rounded who could have led the worst supporting casts since Hakeem's Rockets (they were better than A.I.'s 76ers) to an NBA finals. The only player to do that since was LeBron James.

Tell me of 50 more rounded players all time who could have led that team to a finals.

So many experts and basketball minds view him as a top 50 player all time but you don't.

The more I read from you the more I can tell that you really never cared to watch Allen Iverson play. For you to think he is so one dimensional really goes a long way to show that you really don't have the credentials to engage in a debate such as this.

redwhitenblue
04-12-2011, 04:15 PM
Whole last paragraph makes it obvious you don't know what you're talking about.

-in 13 yrs he played the point probably 4 seasons at best.

-Derrick Rose avg's 7.8 this year. A.I. avg 7.9 while holding a 33 ppg a whole yr and also avg 7 assist in 6 other seasons as well

-excuse the hell out of him for being 5'11 165 (because that's something he can control) and using his quickness to the lead the league in steals and play the passing lane break the NBA record for most steals in a playoff game.
How many times does this have to be said? AI averaged 7+APG 5 times, then had a season at 6.8 and the next closest is 6.2 You're claiming he had 7 seasons, where are they?

That '05-'06 season and his first full season with Denver were his best seasons, easily. And that '05-'06 team was pretty talented with Webber, Iguodala, Korver, Salmons off the bench, so it's good that season he shot a better %.


And furthermore, on your 7.9 assists idea doesn't come in the year he scored 33 per game, it came the year before. And that was in 42 minutes per game (his 33 ppg were in 43 minutes). This year Rose averages 7.5 AP36 mins, Iverson's career high is 6.8.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 04:17 PM
How many times does this have to be said? AI averaged 7+APG 5 times, then had a season at 6.8 and the next closest is 6.2 You're claiming he had 7 seasons, where are they?

That '05-'06 season and his first full season with Denver were his best seasons, easily. And that '05-'06 team was pretty talented with Webber, Iguodala, Korver, Salmons off the bench, so it's good that season he shot a better %.


And furthermore, on your 7.9 assists idea doesn't come in the year he scored 33 per game, it came the year before. And that was in 42 minutes per game (his 33 ppg were in 43 minutes). This year Rose averages 7.5 AP36 mins, Iverson's career high is 6.8.

I have one question.

Did you watch the Philadelphia 76ers play during A.I. days with the team?

redwhitenblue
04-12-2011, 04:23 PM
Tell me of someone who is more rounded who could have led the worst supporting casts since Hakeem's Rockets (they were better than A.I.'s 76ers) to an NBA finals. The only player to do that since was LeBron James.

Tell me of 50 more rounded players all time who could have led that team to a finals.

So many experts and basketball minds view him as a top 50 player all time but you don't.

The more I read from you the more I can tell that you really never cared to watch Allen Iverson play. For you to think he is so one dimensional really goes a long way to show that you really don't have the credentials to engage in a debate such as this.
People trying to claim he's not one-dimensional aren't saying anything really. They're the same people who say Rose isn't a good passer because he doesn't have 10 APG, but now Iverson-who's never come close to getting the assist rate Rose has this year, was a godly passer.

And his horrible team surrounding him? Mutumbo led the league in RPG. It's not worth battling anymore. Some people just have childhood idols that they can't look at objectively. Allen Iverson was a good player, he was not a top 50 guy when he struggled to shoot 42% most years while being a volume shooter, an average or below average assists guy and sporadic defense.

redwhitenblue
04-12-2011, 04:25 PM
I have one question.

Did you watch the Philadelphia 76ers play during A.I. days with the team?
Sure, now I have one.

I can name Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Duncan, Shaq, Dwight, Pierce off the top of my head without even looking closely, and say that they will be rated above AI at career's end. That's 7 guys in the last decade easily without even checking their backgrounds in depth. You truly believe AI's poor shooting % makes him a top 50 player all-time?

Any list with him top 50 has to be taken as extremely questionable.

Lo Porto
04-12-2011, 04:26 PM
AI in his prime was so much better than Rose is currently. Could Rose be better down the road - yes. Is he better right now than AI ever was, it's not even close. AI was simply amazing.

JordansBulls
04-12-2011, 04:26 PM
AI in his prime was so much better than Rose is currently. Could Rose be better down the road - yes. Is he better right now than AI ever was, it's not even close. AI was simply amazing.
What do you mean soo much better?

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 04:29 PM
People trying to claim he's not one-dimensional aren't saying anything really. They're the same people who say Rose isn't a good passer because he doesn't have 10 APG, but now Iverson-who's never come close to getting the assist rate Rose has this year, was a godly passer.

Do you agree with that? I never said such I never believed that.


And his horrible team surrounding him? Mutumbo led the league in RPG. It's not worth battling anymore. Some people just have childhood idols that they can't look at objectively. Allen Iverson was a good player, he was not a top 50 guy when he struggled to shoot 42% most years while being a volume shooter, an average or below average assists guy and sporadic defense.

I posed a question to you earlier to which you failed to answer.

Go back and read because if Allen Iverson is not a top 50 player and not a great scorer then the same can be said for a few other players based on their offensive inefficiency.

Could you please list your top 50 All Time since you are so hardpressed that he isn't in it as well.

Oh and since A.I. had such a good supporting cast could you name the last time in NBA history a team made it to the NBA Finals with only one player average 13 or more points. That would be greatly appreciated.

redwhitenblue
04-12-2011, 04:33 PM
Do you agree with that? I never said such I never believed that.



I posed a question to you earlier to which you failed to answer.

Go back and read because if Allen Iverson is not a top 50 player and not a great scorer then the same can be said for a few other players based on their offensive inefficiency.

Could you please list your top 50 All Time since you are so hardpressed that he isn't in it as well.

Oh and since A.I. had such a good supporting cast could you name the last time in NBA history a team made it to the NBA Finals with only one player average 13 or more points. That would be greatly appreciated.
I'm leaving for work at this moment, but I can try later. I didn't see many players pre-90's, so it's hard for me to judge and rank them as well as the last 20 years.


Usually when you have one player being a ball-hog and chucking up 25.5 shots for 31 points, that team struggles, especially when that player shoots just 42%.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 04:34 PM
Sure, now I have one.

I can name Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Duncan, Shaq, Dwight, Pierce off the top of my head without even looking closely, and say that they will be rated above AI at career's end. That's 7 guys in the last decade easily without even checking their backgrounds in depth. You truly believe AI's poor shooting % makes him a top 50 player all-time?

Any list with him top 50 has to be taken as extremely questionable.

Do you believe Rodman's offense makes him top 50 All Time? Well many say that he is indeed. What about Cousy's FG% his is even worst than A.I.'s and there are many that say he is top 50 all time. What about Baylor, Russell, Havlicek, Maravich? They don't have great FG%s but are all said to be top 50.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 04:36 PM
I'm leaving for work at this moment, but I can try later. I didn't see many players pre-90's, so it's hard for me to judge and rank them as well as the last 20 years.


Usually when you have one player being a ball-hog and chucking up 25.5 shots for 31 points, that team struggles, especially when that player shoots just 42%.

That team stuggles when they don't have a good supporting cast. Could you name one real number 2 option Iverson ever played alongside during his 76ers days?

Cornbread12
04-12-2011, 04:37 PM
How many times does this have to be said? AI averaged 7+APG 5 times, then had a season at 6.8 and the next closest is 6.2 You're claiming he had 7 seasons, where are they?

That '05-'06 season and his first full season with Denver were his best seasons, easily. And that '05-'06 team was pretty talented with Webber, Iguodala, Korver, Salmons off the bench, so it's good that season he shot a better %.


And furthermore, on your 7.9 assists idea doesn't come in the year he scored 33 per game, it came the year before. And that was in 42 minutes per game (his 33 ppg were in 43 minutes). This year Rose averages 7.5 AP36 mins, Iverson's career high is 6.8.


http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/366/allen-iverson

Ok, you're right...it was 7.4 assist when he avg 33ppg and 7.9 when he avg'ed 31ppg. How horrible was I to mess that up. Nevertheless, the numbers are the numbers. I feel the need to mention again he wasn't a PG but he managed to get 7 assist a game. And I guess you're being technical and saying 6.8 isn't 7 assist so ok. Either way, to say he didn't have great assist totals isn't true.

For a "gunner" and "volume shooter" to avg 6.2 assist a game for his career seems good to me considering Kobe avg's 4.3 Jordan 5.3 and TMac 4.6.

Derrick Rose being a PG he is SUPPOSED to average more assist. But w/e it's clear nobody watched bball in 01' or AI in general and I'm convinced people don't watch bball today. Simply rolling outta bed and watching sportscenter highlights makes you an expert on this board.

redwhitenblue
04-12-2011, 04:39 PM
That team stuggles when they don't have a good supporting cast. Could you name one real number 2 option Iverson ever played alongside during his 76ers days?
Webber and Iguodala off the top of my head.

Jewelz0376
04-12-2011, 04:44 PM
I'm leaving for work at this moment, but I can try later. I didn't see many players pre-90's, so it's hard for me to judge and rank them as well as the last 20 years.


Usually when you have one player being a ball-hog and chucking up 25.5 shots for 31 points, that team struggles, especially when that player shoots just 42%.

Riiight...because he played with SO many offensive weapons in Philly...Deng and Boozer are better offensive players than AI ever played with in his prime philly years...Think about who AI played with in philly a broken down Glenn Robinson and Cwebb...He didn't even consistently have good 3 point shooting around him to spread the floor more...He didn't even have that...

It's no coincidence that when he finally was around offensive talent in Denver he shot 46% from the field.....

You can't just look at the numbers w/o analyzing his team and say AI was a "chucker"... Jr Smith is a chucker...Monte Ellis is a chucker.... AI is 6th all time in scoring ppg that is not a "chucker"... You know how many players would love to be a "chucker" if that could have the career AI had..

Lo Porto
04-12-2011, 04:48 PM
What do you mean soo much better?

AI was unbelievably dynamic, and he was surrounded by inferior players. Rose is very good, but has an incredible supporting cast. Let's just look at it. AI had Eric Snow, Derrick McKie, Mutombo, and other okay players. Not one of those guys is an offensive player. Rose has Boozer, Deng, Noah, Gibson and other okay players.

When AI was on, he was unstoppable. I just haven't seen that from Rose yet.

TheRunKiller
04-12-2011, 04:57 PM
OP was smoking a fatty before he made this thread

Chi City23
04-12-2011, 05:02 PM
AI was unbelievably dynamic, and he was surrounded by inferior players. Rose is very good, but has an incredible supporting cast. Let's just look at it. AI had Eric Snow, Derrick McKie, Mutombo, and other okay players. Not one of those guys is an offensive player. Rose has Boozer, Deng, Noah, Gibson and other okay players.

When AI was on, he was unstoppable. I just haven't seen that from Rose yet.

I'm not one who is saying Rose is better than AI, but only because it's so stupid to compare a 22yr old kid who's only in his 3rd season to a future HOF, but you haven't seen Rose be unstoppable because you obviously haven't watched any of his games :laugh2:

If you even bothered you would've seen his game against the Spurs where he dropped 42 or the game recently against Orlando where he dropped 39. Both games he was unstoppable and there have been many more just like that. I'm fine with the first thing you said but the bolded was laughable coming from a non Bulls fan who doesn't watch the games.

AI was a 1 man wrecking crew who had the heart of a lion when he played. The man was awesome, but let Rose finish his career and then compare. Bulls fans need to stop with the AI hate and AI lovers need to understand Rose still has 10-12 more years left and leave it at that.

Cornbread12
04-12-2011, 05:23 PM
I'm not one who is saying Rose is better than AI, but only because it's so stupid to compare a 22yr old kid who's only in his 3rd season to a future HOF, but you haven't seen Rose be unstoppable because you obviously haven't watched any of his games :laugh2:

If you even bothered you would've seen his game against the Spurs where he dropped 42 or the game recently against Orlando where he dropped 39. Both games he was unstoppable and there have been many more just like that. I'm fine with the first thing you said but the bolded was laughable coming from a non Bulls fan who doesn't watch the games.

AI was a 1 man wrecking crew who had the heart of a lion when he played. The man was awesome, but let Rose finish his career and then compare. Bulls fans need to stop with the AI hate and AI lovers need to understand Rose still has 10-12 more years left and leave it at that.


We finally agree!!! lol Like I said I LOVE Derrick Rose. The NBA has never seen a pg with his ability and he'll be a joy to watch for the next 10-12 years. The whole A.I. debate started when Bulls fans came outta nowhere saying this 22yr old kid as you stated was >>>>>>>> an 01' Iverson.

If/when the sixers get eliminated I'm going to root for the Bulls and Celtics. Much love to D. Rose. Hope he doesn't let u guys down because then they'll be EVEN MORE hating threads. The greater you are the more people love to watch you fail! Ask A.I. about that now

smiddy012
04-12-2011, 05:31 PM
PSD needs to stop judging Rose, every argument against DRose that's brought up one year on PSD Rose goes out the next and disproves it completely. We all need to see how Rose performs in the playoffs with a solid team before we can really judge him - he really hasn't had much exposure especially since this is the best he's ever been by far. Personally I'm not even ready to count him out as the best player in the NBA right now, he just keeps provin the doubters wrong - he's probably the first guy in the US who thought he could be MVP this season - putting ceilings on the level of his play at this point in the season doesn't make sense to me. Sure, judge the guy if he doesn't perform in the playoffs, right now we really don't know how great he is.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 05:41 PM
Webber and Iguodala off the top of my head.

And this right here is the entire reason why I can tell that you NEVER watched a single 76er game while Allen Iverson played. Webber and Iguodala? :sigh:

Cornbread12
04-12-2011, 06:15 PM
And this right here is the entire reason why I can tell that you NEVER watched a single 76er game while Allen Iverson played. Webber and Iguodala? :sigh:

This

Chi City23
04-12-2011, 06:20 PM
We finally agree!!! lol Like I said I LOVE Derrick Rose. The NBA has never seen a pg with his ability and he'll be a joy to watch for the next 10-12 years. The whole A.I. debate started when Bulls fans came outta nowhere saying this 22yr old kid as you stated was >>>>>>>> an 01' Iverson.

If/when the sixers get eliminated I'm going to root for the Bulls and Celtics. Much love to D. Rose. Hope he doesn't let u guys down because then they'll be EVEN MORE hating threads. The greater you are the more people love to watch you fail! Ask A.I. about that now

I don't think we ever disagreed lol.. I know how some Bulls fans can get and that's why I love em cuz they're so passionate and such blind homers but honestly it's not fair to Rose or to AI to compare the two right now. Like you said Rose is headed in the right direction and we'll just see where he ends up. Rose still has room to get even better (which is really scary) and when he's in his prime then we'll be able to make a better comparison. :)

SchyGuy11
04-12-2011, 06:47 PM
D Rose

Rivera
04-12-2011, 06:53 PM
AI crossed Jordan thats the real reason why bulls fans is mad!!!!

D Roses Bulls
04-12-2011, 06:56 PM
AI crossed Jordan thats the real reason why bulls fans is mad!!!!

and rose tied a record for most points in a first playoff game as a rookie vs the celtics. thats why celtics fans are mad ;)

AIMelo=KillaDUO
04-12-2011, 07:03 PM
Webber and Iguodala off the top of my head.

LOL you've made it clear, YOU DID NOT WATCH THE 76ERS WHEN AI WAS FIRST THERE. Cuz you would know Chriss Webber, was WAYYY past his prime and couldn't even run up the floor. and Andre Iguodala the equivalant to Marvin Williams. He's no way the Igudodala he is now. Lol who are the next great players he played with?? Glen Robinson?? Keith Van Horn... Maybe Derrick Coleman?? How bout Jerry Stackhouse.... or Clearance Weatherspoon, or Matt Harpring.... CLOWN!

:facepalm: @ u sayin AI isn't top 50 lol

AIMelo=KillaDUO
04-12-2011, 07:04 PM
And this right here is the entire reason why I can tell that you NEVER watched a single 76er game while Allen Iverson played. Webber and Iguodala? :sigh:

Swashcuff I'm glad there is a few true AI fans out there :sigh: Sorry I didn't come to back you up sooner. But you held your own.

TO to the CHI
04-12-2011, 07:10 PM
This thread is way WAY off topic. Look anyone who is trying to compare their careers based on what we know at present would have to choose Iverson. He had many incredible years and has a much broader body of work.

But the question was about whether the 2011 Bulls would be better/worse/same with 2001 Iverson. The bottom line is that Iverson averaged 4.6 APG in 42 MPG in the 2000-01 season. That came off two previous years where he averaged under 5 APG. The reality is that the Bulls team does have better options, but the Iverson that was playing for the Sixers in 2001 was more of a do it yourself guy. People can argue that was out of necessity, but I would argue it had a lot to do with where he was in his career as well.

More importantly, most of the Bulls fan (and other people saying they would choose 2011 Rose) are basing it on his team leadership, his work ethic, and his having fully bought in to Thibs' system. Iverson most certainly worked hard, but he did it on his own time. He was hardly known for being a practice player or a leader known for buying in fully to his coaches' systems. That is key to a Bulls team that relies heavily on Thibs' system, which in turn, relies heavily on Rose having bought in.

I would say that the 2011 Bulls are better served with 2011 Rose than 2001 Iverson. I just don't see that as a statement that Rose is better, but rather as a statement that he is a better fit and piece as between the two at those stages in their career. Similarly, I think LeBron is the best player in the NBA right now, but I think the Heat would be scarier with Dwight Howard in his place because I think he would be an even better complement to Bosh and Wade come playoff time.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 07:24 PM
Someone so unrounded cannot be a top 50 player.

Of the 37 players in NBA history who has scored 20,000+ careers points 5 (Hal Greer, Bob Petitt, Elgin Baylor, Elvin Hayes, John Havlicek) have a lower career TS%, the same five also have a lower career eFG%, and 13 of whom have a lower career PER. 2 of those players (Oscar Robertson and Gary Payton) have a higher career AST%, of the 30 who qualify 13 have a lower career TOV% and 4 (Gary Payton, Michael Jordan, Jerry West, Clyde Drexler) have a higher career STL%.

Allen Iverson and Jerry West are the only 2 players in NBA History to average over 26 points 6 assists and 2 steals per game for their entire career.

I can literally go on for days with how well rounded A.I. is.

Many of these very players who A.I. betters are viewed as top 50 players. It however goes to show that there Allen Iverson is NOT the "unrounded" player that you make him out to be. The fact that he betters so many of these greats in so many categories goes to show that he actually played it quite "rounded" brand of basketball. His biggest downfall his chucking and the fact that he was not a great defender but guess what there are "top 50" players who shot worst than A.I. and were/are not only worst overall defensive players than A.I. but worst defenders as well.

I should also include that in 00-01 Allen Iverson accounted for 44.6% of the 76ers offense as compared to this season's Derrick Rose who accounts for 40% of the Bulls offense.

So tell me did his low efficiency really hurt his teams that much? Anyone who actually followed him would know the correct answer to that. Sure he chucked and got us Sixer fans so angry on so many occasions because of his chucking ways but more times than not he was justified.

A.I. is quite rounded if you ask me.

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 07:28 PM
Swashcuff I'm glad there is a few true AI fans out there :sigh: Sorry I didn't come to back you up sooner. But you held your own.

Good looking out bro.

BullsFTW
04-12-2011, 08:19 PM
Iverson led a team to the Finals, your boy has had two good seasons. Be a little less ignorant and people wouldn't hate the Bulls so much this year.

Yeah he did lead a team to the Finals, but they could've won more games had AI trust his teammates more. I'm not being ignorant, I've seen the two players play, and to be quite honest, Rose is more of a complete player at this young stage of his career than Iverson in his prime.

Ball-Handling: Tie
Passing: Rose
Leadership: Rose
Athleticism: Rose
Intangibles: Rose
Shooting: Rose (he's more consistent)
Driving: Rose
Intangibles: Rose

Jewelz0376
04-12-2011, 08:36 PM
Yeah he did lead a team to the Finals, but they could've won more games had AI trust his teammates more. I'm not being ignorant, I've seen the two players play, and to be quite honest, Rose is more of a complete player at this young stage of his career than Iverson in his prime.

Ball-Handling: Tie
Passing: Rose
Leadership: Rose
Athleticism: Rose
Intangibles: Rose
Shooting: Rose (he's more consistent)
Driving: Rose
Intangibles: Rose

Not trust his teammates more?? Who should've shot more?? Eric Snow?? George Lynch?? Matt Geiger??? who??? The only player on that team with any kind of offensive game was Mckie...Mutumbo could score sometimes in the post, but he def wasn't a post player to run offense thru...

hugepatsfan
04-12-2011, 08:37 PM
Yeah he did lead a team to the Finals, but they could've won more games had AI trust his teammates more. I'm not being ignorant, I've seen the two players play, and to be quite honest, Rose is more of a complete player at this young stage of his career than Iverson in his prime.

Ball-Handling: Tie
Passing: Rose
Leadership: Rose
Athleticism: Rose
Intangibles: Rose
Shooting: Rose (he's more consistent)
Driving: Rose
Intangibles: Rose

lmao

Elbumpy
04-12-2011, 09:07 PM
Too bad A.I. played shooting guard in 2001. Eric Snow was the pg. Listen I LOVE Derrick Rose just as much as Bulls fans. Dude is a stud all day everyday but to say that in his 3rd year he is >>>>>>>> Iverson is the DUMBEST ***** ever. I've been reading this drawn out convo for a while and I just wanna make a few.

I was operating under the assumption that he'd be taking the point in this scenario. Improving the players around them and running the offense are the main duties of a pg, but that quality isn't exclusive to them. Jordan did it as a sg, AI did not.

koreancabbage
04-12-2011, 09:40 PM
Yeah he did lead a team to the Finals, but they could've won more games had AI trust his teammates more. I'm not being ignorant, I've seen the two players play, and to be quite honest, Rose is more of a complete player at this young stage of his career than Iverson in his prime.

Ball-Handling: Iverson
Passing: TIE
Leadership: Rose
Athleticism: TIE
Intangibles: TIE
Shooting: Rose (he's more consistent)
Driving: TIE
Intangibles: TIE

Come on, Rose has the better supporting cast by far. With AI, this would have been a championship team in 01 guaranteed. Not saying that if Rose doesn't get to the Finals/ winning it all would be a complete failure but I think AI was definitely a better scorer by far. a couple of scoring titles i believe. and a league MVP and about the same in intangibles. Iverson had the killer crossover second to none.

I think they are about equal back if you look at the same point in their careers. played also 40+ minutes per night and got hacked and fouled at every turn. i'll even give the slight advantage to Iverson on that too

Swashcuff
04-12-2011, 09:48 PM
Yeah he did lead a team to the Finals, but they could've won more games had AI trust his teammates more. I'm not being ignorant, I've seen the two players play, and to be quite honest, Rose is more of a complete player at this young stage of his career than Iverson in his prime.

Ball-Handling: Tie
Passing: Rose
Leadership: Rose
Athleticism: Rose
Intangibles: Rose
Shooting: Rose (he's more consistent)
Driving: Rose
Intangibles: Rose

Rose must be the most intagibly gifted player in the history of the NBA. :rolleyes:

From your opening statement alone we know all we need to about your knowledge on the topic.

SeoulBeatz
04-12-2011, 10:17 PM
Yeah he did lead a team to the Finals, but they could've won more games had AI trust his teammates more. I'm not being ignorant, I've seen the two players play, and to be quite honest, Rose is more of a complete player at this young stage of his career than Iverson in his prime.

Ball-Handling: Tie
Passing: Rose
Leadership: Rose
Athleticism: Rose
Intangibles: Rose
Shooting: Rose (he's more consistent)
Driving: Rose
Intangibles: Rose

This entire post is out of whack.

Your comparison's fine (although I don't agree), but please don't talk about stuff you don't know.

How did you know iverson didn't trust his teammates? They had GREAT chemistry on that team which is why they made it so far with so little talent. A.I was the SCORER for a defensive oriented team that featured 4 other players who were incapable of scoring: Eric Snow, George Lynch, Tyrone Hill, Dikembe Mutumbo. Lol, Are you serious? But you just assume they didn't have chemistry because you're one of those people who judges A.I through the media rather than your own eyes, and it's obvious from this entire post; don't even try to deny it.

When A.I was was getting ready for his first home game back last year there's video of him talking to Eric Snow, George Lynch, and Aaron Mckie in the locker room and they were nothing but smiles and hugs because they were a tight team.

Ignorant people need to watch this to really show how much A.I means to the people of Philadelphia. (his first return home as a nugget)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNcY-xn65rU


Everyone here loves him and there's a reason for that.
Look at how former teammates and coworkers interact with A.I. He is one of the nicest people around. And yes I have met him on TWO occassions to sign autographs and he took his time and was very cordial with me even when I stopped him in the parking lot as an annoying 4th grader (That was when he was a 23 y/o and had his share of troubles, but he was still a nice guy). He's, dumb as bricks, but his heart is in the right place and there are too many ignorant people out there who judge him before really trying to understand him. Damn shame really.


If he were just an ******* who didn't try hard but had all the talent like a Marbury the people of Philadelphia wouldn't give a second glance if he left.

But when A.I left, the Sixers went from 5th in attendance to DEAD LAST. DEAD LAST!!!!

Even Cavs fans still go to games with Bron gone, it's because A.I was able to captivate a city by being a warrior day in and day out. He was an underdog in a city that thrives on that story.

Do any of these star players in this video seem to hate A.I?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBy0MmKjElA&feature=related

No, there's a reason for that too.

NetsPaint
04-12-2011, 10:26 PM
As someone has stated in here, you can't just look at stats and you had to watch Iverson. Something about him just gives a unique vibe when comparing him to other great players such as Rose. It's one of the reasons why I also say Iverson is better. I know I can't go very far with it as an argument, but the aura he gave in his career was that of an all-time great.

SeoulBeatz
04-12-2011, 10:54 PM
As someone has stated in here, you can't just look at stats and you had to watch Iverson. Something about him just gives a unique vibe when comparing him to other great players such as Rose. It's one of the reasons why I also say Iverson is better. I know I can't go very far with it as an argument, but the aura he gave in his career was that of an all-time great.

I know what you mean.

It's nothing against rose (he's got his own silent swag), he just doesn't have that aura that Iverson has.

I feel the same way about Durant.

Durant doesn't have the same aura Kobe has.

I don't think we're alone.

sargon21
04-12-2011, 11:27 PM
Just because's Rose swag isn't as loud or apparent as Iverson's doesnt mean, Rose's swag<Iverson's swag, if that makes sense lol, because at the end of the game, with 2 minutes left, there's no one in the league I'd rather have with the ball than Rose.

sargon21
04-12-2011, 11:28 PM
Of the 37 players in NBA history who has scored 20,000+ careers points 5 (Hal Greer, Bob Petitt, Elgin Baylor, Elvin Hayes, John Havlicek) have a lower career TS%, the same five also have a lower career eFG%, and 13 of whom have a lower career PER. 2 of those players (Oscar Robertson and Gary Payton) have a higher career AST%, of the 30 who qualify 13 have a lower career TOV% and 4 (Gary Payton, Michael Jordan, Jerry West, Clyde Drexler) have a higher career STL%.

Allen Iverson and Jerry West are the only 2 players in NBA History to average over 26 points 6 assists and 2 steals per game for their entire career.

I can literally go on for days with how well rounded A.I. is.

Many of these very players who A.I. betters are viewed as top 50 players. It however goes to show that there Allen Iverson is NOT the "unrounded" player that you make him out to be. The fact that he betters so many of these greats in so many categories goes to show that he actually played it quite "rounded" brand of basketball. His biggest downfall his chucking and the fact that he was not a great defender but guess what there are "top 50" players who shot worst than A.I. and were/are not only worst overall defensive players than A.I. but worst defenders as well.

I should also include that in 00-01 Allen Iverson accounted for 44.6% of the 76ers offense as compared to this season's Derrick Rose who accounts for 40% of the Bulls offense.

So tell me did his low efficiency really hurt his teams that much? Anyone who actually followed him would know the correct answer to that. Sure he chucked and got us Sixer fans so angry on so many occasions because of his chucking ways but more times than not he was justified.

A.I. is quite rounded if you ask me.

That's false, it's either 42.7 or 44.6, something like that, TNT posted it.

NetsPaint
04-12-2011, 11:32 PM
Just because's Rose swag isn't as loud or apparent as Iverson's doesnt mean, Rose's swag<Iverson's swag, if that makes sense lol, because at the end of the game, with 2 minutes left, there's no one in the league I'd rather have with the ball than Rose.
We don't really mean it in that way. It's just more of a feeling.

Beatz's example of Kobe and Durant is the same thing.

Here's the list of some of the guys who give off the aura I'm talking about in today's NBA:

Steve Nash
Kobe
Wade
LeBron

Rose's significant shooting improvement shows potential to be up in with these list of players (for me), but as of now to me he's a great player, but not up there with players I listed.

NetsPaint
04-12-2011, 11:36 PM
Off-Topic: Has Iverson played with Besiktas Cola Turka for the Playoffs yet? He was cleared recently to start practicing with the team.

pd7631
04-12-2011, 11:43 PM
This entire post is out of whack.

Your comparison's fine (although I don't agree), but please don't talk about stuff you don't know.

How did you know iverson didn't trust his teammates? They had GREAT chemistry on that team which is why they made it so far with so little talent. A.I was the SCORER for a defensive oriented team that featured 4 other players who were incapable of scoring: Eric Snow, George Lynch, Tyrone Hill, Dikembe Mutumbo. Lol, Are you serious? But you just assume they didn't have chemistry because you're one of those people who judges A.I through the media rather than your own eyes, and it's obvious from this entire post; don't even try to deny it.

When A.I was was getting ready for his first home game back last year there's video of him talking to Eric Snow, George Lynch, and Aaron Mckie in the locker room and they were nothing but smiles and hugs because they were a tight team.

Ignorant people need to watch this to really show how much A.I means to the people of Philadelphia. (his first return home as a nugget)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNcY-xn65rU


Everyone here loves him and there's a reason for that.
Look at how former teammates and coworkers interact with A.I. He is one of the nicest people around. And yes I have met him on TWO occassions to sign autographs and he took his time and was very cordial with me even when I stopped him in the parking lot as an annoying 4th grader (That was when he was a 23 y/o and had his share of troubles, but he was still a nice guy). He's, dumb as bricks, but his heart is in the right place and there are too many ignorant people out there who judge him before really trying to understand him. Damn shame really.


If he were just an ******* who didn't try hard but had all the talent like a Marbury the people of Philadelphia wouldn't give a second glance if he left.

But when A.I left, the Sixers went from 5th in attendance to DEAD LAST. DEAD LAST!!!!

Even Cavs fans still go to games with Bron gone, it's because A.I was able to captivate a city by being a warrior day in and day out. He was an underdog in a city that thrives on that story.

Do any of these star players in this video seem to hate A.I?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBy0MmKjElA&feature=related

No, there's a reason for that too.

Excellent post....again. I'd like to add to your points about AI's supporting cast in 01'. If people will remember, some key players for the Sixers that season were guys added in January or later (Rodney Buford, Raja Bell along with the guys brought over in the Ratliff/Mutombo trade). Bell was signed on APRIL 16th!! With all these moving parts it would've been easy to use the chemistry excuse that so many people like to use now, but AI and the team kept plugging along all the way to the Finals.

Rodney Buford
Jumaine Jones
Pepe Sanchez
Eric Snow
Aaron McKie
Todd McCulloch
Kevin Ollie
George Lynch
^^
What were these guys without AI? Nothings. AI elevated these guys to become a championship caliber team. Just look at their careers, their best years(for some they only had a couple years in the league) were playing alongside Allen Iverson. So anybody arguing that he doesn't make his teammates better is just straight BS.

Doogolas
04-12-2011, 11:46 PM
What does AI meaning more to Philly than Rose means to Chicago have to do with this thread, at all?

The question was who is better for this Bulls team. Now who was a better fit for that 76ers team or who means/meant more to their city.

AI may be the most beloved figure in Philly ever. But that has literally less than nothing to do with this thread.

Iggz53
04-12-2011, 11:46 PM
Give me Rose. More efficient offensively, much better creator, and better in the clutch.

3RDASYSTEM
04-12-2011, 11:56 PM
Its funny how people keep throwing out the APG numbers on AI in his 01 season, he was a undersized 2guard running baseline to baseline to 'shoot' and create and score not to get assist you people do realize he didnt have the ball in his hands like Rose initially(he was setup by Snow), its funny how people says he cant shoot but was running off all types of screens to shoot the 3pt/J, so Larry Brown(a HOF coach) is that stupid to run a guy off screens who cant shoot? he was pulling 3's from NBA range in HS but cant shoot? Wow

Swashcuff
04-13-2011, 12:00 AM
That's false, it's either 42.7 or 44.6, something like that, TNT posted it.

5.8 of Derrick Rose's assists leads to 2FG and 2.1 leads to 3FG.

5.8*2= 11.6 + 2.1*3=6.1

11.6+6.3= 17.9

17.9 + 25.1= 43 points.

43 / 98.6= 43.6%

I stand corrected

I saw the stat on CBS but it was indeed incorrect.

3RDASYSTEM
04-13-2011, 12:24 AM
And if AI played more minutes that means he shouldered more load right off top cause by nature Superstar minutes go up in the playoffs so if he was avg 42/44min per game then in the playoffs he was playing 45-46min per carrying every more of a load,his homie McKie said he 5'11 on his best day,so wat does that make him on his normal day,Rose is as much taller/bigger than AI as Lebron is to Wade and wats crazy is AI played 'BIG' cause he could attack the paint or hit from J pretty much equally, and for those who dont understand how he was shooting a low FG pct, just imagine yourself being double/tripled every play and game and every shot being contested by guys at least 6inches taller and making it difficult every shot and like yall said he was shooting 25x per game, because when he had any type of so called 'decent' look it was pure bottoms and at times he would 'face up' his man and spray'em,just watch how the ball go thru the net and watch his form,thats how you can tell a shooter from a chucker

The more we talk about his supporting cast,the more amazing he's going to look because of his size and lack of a Scoring Option of any kind

A Msg for DRose/Bulls PSD fanatics from KB24:
"When the new generation comes along, you still can't take away from those players," Bryant said. "[Iverson] did stuff that's never been seen before from a guy his size. You can't discount that. He took a team of one scorer and a bunch of hard-nosed players to the NBA Finals. And when he lost to us, he was doing it during our reign of having a great team."

sevencastro
04-13-2011, 12:27 AM
:facepalm: Another jealous hateful thread. This is a no brainer, of corse the Bulls would be worse with Allen Iverson around.

The Bulls didn't even win a championship yet and this is like the 3rd hating jealous thread about Rose every since he became better than Chris Paul and Deron Williams, becoming the best PG in the entire league and of this decade.

1 good season n he already the best pg in the league how is that for homerism rose is good but paul n williams have been doing this for a while now they r still better than him at the pg possition now at scoring rose is way better than them but as true pg goes he aint even close to westbrook
now to rose n iverson plz people r u guys really compering rose to iverson who cld stop iverson back then nobody n today wld be even worst n like other people that know what they talkin bout th 76rs didnt have anything else besides AI so he had to take many more shots with these bulls whe wld take more less shots while still scoring like 27 to 30 plus 8 to 8 asst ohhh n yes he was a better defensive player than rose way better

sevencastro
04-13-2011, 12:35 AM
oh n yes i wld put iverson in tis bulls n it wld be way better i really hate people that started whatching games a few yrs ago

toovey107
04-13-2011, 03:33 AM
Says the guy who cannot even construct a proper sentence.

Anyways, I vote Rose... if not solely on attitude alone.

abe_froman
04-13-2011, 03:42 AM
a little worse.rose and his abilities and personality perfectly fit the team,like a glove.for as great as ai was he would have problems with the coaching and maybe team mates.the passing to score ratio would be off enough were it upsets the balance

something in low-mid 50's range of wins i'd say