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Chronz
04-01-2011, 03:35 AM
No offense to fans of any contending team but Rose is going to come home with the MVP, we've heard the arguments for every candidate, regardless the hype machine that is Chicago will sway this argument in his favor. Rather than repeat the same tired rhetoric against Rose I decided to acknowledge the fact that the MVP process is open to interpretation and anyone can make sense out of anything, and the most popular story will run away with the award. To be clear Im not saying the MVP is worthless, just that not every MVP is treated equally. There have been 28 different MVP winners in league history, among them Rose is the 2nd youngest ever.

2nd only to Wes Unseld who accomplished this remarkable feat a few 10 days or so younger. Now you can believe this is a testament to just how great Rose is, or how great of a season hes having, or you could take it as evidence that hes almost as unworthy as Wes was only taking advantage of being the "IT" story. I say almost because I do not believe Rose was that bad of a decision, Im just stating the similarities between the 2 candidates. Both players were a part of a team that shocked the world and did better than anyone imagined, the Bullets won 21 more games and Unseld was the biggest addition, he didnt have the stats but is well known as one of the greatest intangible players of all time.

Sadly those intangibles didnt quite seem to keep him in contention the OTHER years, you know once the story got stale. The Bullets were eliminated in R.1 depite HCA that year, though to be fair they faced a clearly superior team. Still that was the end of Unseld as an MVP contender, now you tell me if that sounds right. Unseld represents the worst MVP in History due to the fact that his candidacy relied most heavily on the story, for without it, he was never seen in that light.


Thats literally the only MVP I can place behind the current run by Rose, so is Rose the 27th Best MVP in History or is there someone Im forgetting?

Kashmir13579
04-01-2011, 03:41 AM
Chronz. those were the words of an Angel. i mean, i can't even look at you right now. i think you just took the shape of a Unicorn. :worthy:

Crackadalic
04-01-2011, 03:46 AM
No offense to fans of any contending team but Rose is going to come home with the MVP, we've heard the arguments for every candidate, regardless the hype machine that is Chicago will sway this argument in his favor. Rather than repeat the same tired rhetoric against Rose I decided to acknowledge the fact that the MVP process is open to interpretation and anyone can make sense out of anything, and the most popular story will run away with the award. To be clear Im not saying the MVP is worthless, just that not every MVP is treated equally. There have been 28 different MVP winners in league history, among them Rose is the 2nd youngest ever.

2nd only to Wes Unseld who accomplished this remarkable feat a few 10 days or so younger. Now you can believe this is a testament to just how great Rose is, or how great of a season hes having, or you could take it as evidence that hes almost as unworthy as Wes was only taking advantage of being the "IT" story. I say almost because I do not believe Rose was that bad of a decision, Im just stating the similarities between the 2 candidates. Both players were a part of a team that shocked the world and did better than anyone imagined, the Bullets won 21 more games and Unseld was the biggest addition, he didnt have the stats but is well known as one of the greatest intangible players of all time.

Sadly those intangibles didnt quite seem to keep him in contention the OTHER years, you know once the story got stale. The Bullets were eliminated in R.1 depite HCA that year, though to be fair they faced a clearly superior team. Still that was the end of Unseld as an MVP contender, now you tell me if that sounds right. Unseld represents the worst MVP in History due to the fact that his candidacy relied most heavily on the story, for without it, he was never seen in that light.


Thats literally the only MVP I can place behind the current run by Rose, so is Rose the 27th Best MVP in History or is there someone Im forgetting?


His MVP campaign is more because of the coach then everything else. Doesnt come close to Lebron's 2 MVP campaign season. He deserve to win it this year but if i had to rank him among the other 26 MVP's then he is at least closer to the 20th range IMO

D Roses Bulls
04-01-2011, 03:46 AM
John Hollingers little brother is at it again

D Roses Bulls
04-01-2011, 03:48 AM
His MVP campaign is more because of the coach then everything else. Doesnt come close to Lebron's 2 MVP campaign season. He deserve to win it this year but if i had to rank him among the other 26 MVP's then he is at least closer to the 20th range IMO

agreed on some, but i wouldnt credit thibs....... im not saying its in the top 15, but its not second to last like he is saying.

Jenceman
04-01-2011, 03:52 AM
Yes Chronz, you're right, only Unseld's was "worse".

C-Style
04-01-2011, 03:57 AM
IMO Kobe is more valuable than Rose, no matter what team they are on.

D Roses Bulls
04-01-2011, 04:01 AM
IMO Kobe is more valuable than Rose, no matter what team they are on.

ugh..... I mean look, rose isnt the best player in the league but with what the bulls had to face this year, he deserves it hands down being the leader and carrying that team on offense no matter what anyone else has to say. i aint gonna lie though, i wouldnt be mad if howard or kobe got it over him

Jewelz0376
04-01-2011, 04:03 AM
Wes Unseld won mvp 40 years ago...I really dont see how someone can accurately judge if a person was deserving of an mvp award they weren't even alive to witness...

D Roses Bulls
04-01-2011, 04:06 AM
Wes Unseld won mvp 40 years ago...I really dont see how someone can accurately judge if a person was deserving of an mvp award they weren't even alive to witness...

thats true too...... different game back than with different players. people forget to account for that.

Kashmir13579
04-01-2011, 04:11 AM
carrying that team on offense

How much water do you think that holds seeing that the Bulls win primarily from their 1st ranked interior defense?

kingbrentg
04-01-2011, 04:13 AM
This whole MVP talk all season has gone from annoying, to hilarious, to annoying, back to hilarious again. The amount of scrutiny, realization, and digging has just been astounding. It's pretty great how we've gotten to the point of having to downplay the MVP now because Rose is the likely winner.

Now, I don't care what is thought about him anymore, nor am I disagreeing with the OP's claim. But at the end of the day, Rose becomes the MVP (assuming still), and people can spew the "but he's (one of) the worst MVP's ever" story as much as they want. Rose will take his trophy and keep working on his goal of an NBA Championship. And whoever wants to get mad about it, can cry until they puke.

kingbrentg
04-01-2011, 04:14 AM
How much water do you think that holds seeing that the Bulls win primarily from their 1st ranked interior defense?

Not going to pitch a shutout every night. Offense is still needed to outscore the other team.

D Roses Bulls
04-01-2011, 04:17 AM
How much water do you think that holds seeing that the Bulls win primarily from their 1st ranked interior defense?

I know the defense looks good, I do credit thibs with some of the success, but than again he has made his mistakes. I have missed probably 4 bulls games this year and I can say for sure I think thibs has cost us at least 3-5 games with his coaching, substitutions, and decisions. also, I do believe some what our defense is a little overrated. we do get some breaks sometimes. like in the minnesota game for example because it was most recently. we were not playing as good as the stat sheet said, minny was missing wide open jumpers and lay ups. hell, even rose looked like he wasn't even "really" trying and he still managed 26 and 10 or whatever he had. point is, there have been other games like that in that sense that teams just missed open jumpers and ect. i mean rose isnt perfect, trust me, i can not stand him taking as many 3's as he is doing, but he does deserve the mvp imo with as much as he has had to face this year.

abe_froman
04-01-2011, 04:23 AM
is rose the best? no ,the worst or close to it? maybe,maybe not.competition level for the award changes yearly.take wade for instance that crazy year he had during lebron's first award would have netted him it in most years.just how it goes,nothing you can do about it.

D Roses Bulls
04-01-2011, 04:26 AM
is rose the best? no ,the worst or close to it? maybe,maybe not.compilation level for the award changes yearly.take wade for instance that crazy year he had during lebron's first award would have netted him it in most years.just how it goes

yeah, wade should of won it. look who he had on his team and look at the numbers he put up and how much he carried that team. without wade, miami was a 10-15 game winner that year.

C-Style
04-01-2011, 04:30 AM
How much water do you think that holds seeing that the Bulls win primarily from their 1st ranked interior defense?
Rose 17th out of 27 qualifying PG's in FG%
Rose 30th out of 35 qualifying PG's in 3P FG%
Rose 10th out of 40 qualifying PG's in assists
Rose 19th out of 39 qualifying PG's in steals
Rose 39th out of 44 qualifying PG's in turnovers
Rose 33rd out of 44 qualifying PG's in ast-to ratio




I find it interesting that Rose's "supreme" playmaking/constant double teams, has led to the top scorers on this team performing no better than their career averages. I also have to once again laugh @ Rose carrying this team offensively when he his scoring efficiency this season ranks 7th on the team.

1. Korver 58.5%
2. Noah 56.2%
3. Boozer 55.5%
4. Deng 54.3%
5. Bogans 53.7%
6. Asik 53.6%
7. Rose 53.3%

D Roses Bulls
04-01-2011, 04:36 AM
Rose 17th out of 27 qualifying PG's in FG%
Rose 30th out of 35 qualifying PG's in 3P FG%
Rose 10th out of 40 qualifying PG's in assists
Rose 19th out of 39 qualifying PG's in steals
Rose 39th out of 44 qualifying PG's in turnovers
Rose 33rd out of 44 qualifying PG's in ast-to ratio




I find it interesting that Rose's "supreme" playmaking/constant double teams, has led to the top scorers on this team performing no better than their career averages. I also have to once again laugh @ Rose carrying this team offensively when he his scoring efficiency this season ranks 7th on the team.

1. Korver 58.5%
2. Noah 56.2%
3. Boozer 55.5%
4. Deng 54.3%
5. Bogans 53.7%
6. Asik 53.6%
7. Rose 53.3%

again another situation when advanced stats are more useful in baseball than in basketball.

kingbrentg
04-01-2011, 04:41 AM
I find it interesting that Rose's "supreme" playmaking/constant double teams, has led to the top scorers on this team performing no better than their career averages. I also have to once again laugh @ Rose carrying this team offensively when he his scoring efficiency this season ranks 7th on the team.

1. Korver 58.5%
2. Noah 56.2%
3. Boozer 55.5%
4. Deng 54.3%
5. Bogans 53.7%
6. Asik 53.6%
7. Rose 53.3%

Huh? I guess I'll have to laugh back at someone comparing a playmaking point guard's shooting percentages to PFs, Cs, and wide open jump shooters.

If you're going to make a claim at least go about it the right way and not use completely worthless stats to determine who does the most for an offense.

basketfan4life
04-01-2011, 06:14 AM
i think, if lakers stays perfect from here to the finishing line, this thread will be wortless

TO to the CHI
04-01-2011, 06:45 AM
i think, if lakers stays perfect from here to the finishing line, this thread will be wortless

I think this thread was already worthless, but agree that if the Lakers run the table, Kobe will have a solid shot at MVP.

Bulls_fan90
04-01-2011, 06:48 AM
i think, if lakers stays perfect from here to the finishing line, this thread will be wortless

This thread is already worthess. We have a MVP thread, why do we need another thread for each persons opinion?

beardown78
04-01-2011, 06:53 AM
This whole MVP talk all season has gone from annoying, to hilarious, to annoying, back to hilarious again. The amount of scrutiny, realization, and digging has just been astounding. It's pretty great how we've gotten to the point of having to downplay the MVP now because Rose is the likely winner.

Now, I don't care what is thought about him anymore, nor am I disagreeing with the OP's claim. But at the end of the day, Rose becomes the MVP (assuming still), and people can spew the "but he's (one of) the worst MVP's ever" story as much as they want. Rose will take his trophy and keep working on his goal of an NBA Championship. And whoever wants to get mad about it, can cry until they puke.

This, it's just A shame people will go out of there way to diminish Rose's likely achievement by now ranking him with past MVP winners. Rose is such A humble likeable player but people wanna continually hate on him it's really sad .Rose is deserving of the MVP for leading his team to A great record and possible number one seed overall while everyone had the Bulls rated as maybe A 4-5 seed

basketfan4life
04-01-2011, 07:38 AM
i don't think anyone hates rose. he is a great guy c'mon...people just have ideas...may be real solid westbrook fans hate on rose, but nothing more...

if this was about Kobe or Lebron , i'd understand the word hate...but not now, not for Rose, because you need to be really, really a big superstar to be hated that much, it's just another level of a stardom, and i don't think anybody other then Kobe and Lebron is on that status...

not rose, not howard, not even wade...and i don't say it to downplay how good they play basketball, it's just completely a different thing.

TO to the CHI
04-01-2011, 07:51 AM
i don't think anyone hates rose. he is a great guy c'mon...people just have ideas...may be real solid westbrook fans hate on rose, but nothing more...

if this was about Kobe or Lebron , i'd understand the word hate...but not now, not for Rose, because you need to be really, really a big superstar to be hated that much, it's just another level of a stardom, and i don't think anybody other then Kobe and Lebron is on that status...

not rose, not howard, not even wade...and i don't say it to downplay how good they play basketball, it's just completely a different thing.

So your argument is that people don't hate Rose because he's not good enough to be hated????? Thanks for clearing that one up.

basketfan4life
04-01-2011, 08:08 AM
So your argument is that people don't hate Rose because he's not good enough to be hated????? Thanks for clearing that one up.

No it's not really all that, and i explained it because i didn't want someone to misunderstand me and come up with that. but you know, you are the one :)

because they are not as sensational as the two i mentioned, on and off the court, i said not even dwade in my previous post. if you'll come up with he is not goog enough, at least come up with wade, not rose, come with the better one.

TylerSL
04-01-2011, 08:18 AM
is rose the best? no ,the worst or close to it? maybe,maybe not.competition level for the award changes yearly.take wade for instance that crazy year he had during lebron's first award would have netted him it in most years.just how it goes,nothing you can do about it.


I agree with that, Wade was robbed, completely that year :mad:. But I think Rose is MVP because Bulls would be like a 45 win team and a 6 seed at best without him, and with him, they are a 60 win team and a 1 seed. I know the defense has alot to do with it, but that offense would be down right bad without Rose.

TO to the CHI
04-01-2011, 08:18 AM
No it's not really all that, and i explained it because i didn't want someone to misunderstand me and come up with that. but you know, you are the one :)

because they are not as sensational as the two i mentioned, on and off the court, i said not even dwade in my previous post. if you'll come up with he is not goog enough, at least come up with wade, not rose, come with the better one.

I explained your point accurately. The fact that you also think that Dwight and Wade are also not good enough to be hated makes you look more foolish, but doesn't alter your comments about Rose. The funny thing is that Howard is better than Kobe at this point.

But keep digging, you'll get there eventually.

TylerSL
04-01-2011, 08:20 AM
This thread is already worthess. We have a MVP thread, why do we need another thread for each persons opinion?

this, and the only way Kobe gets the MVP is if the Lakers catch the Spurs. Then they MIGHT give it to Kobe over Rose, I wouldnt tho.

flea
04-01-2011, 08:29 AM
i don't think anyone hates rose. he is a great guy c'mon...
I don't hate Rose but he's certainly not a "great guy". He's a cheater and a liar, and while I don't have evidence of it I'd be willing to guess he's an egomaniac as well.

Team*Chicago
04-01-2011, 08:59 AM
No offense to fans of any contending team but Rose is going to come home with the MVP, we've heard the arguments for every candidate, regardless the hype machine that is Chicago will sway this argument in his favor. Rather than repeat the same tired rhetoric against Rose I decided to acknowledge the fact that the MVP process is open to interpretation and anyone can make sense out of anything, and the most popular story will run away with the award. To be clear Im not saying the MVP is worthless, just that not every MVP is treated equally. There have been 28 different MVP winners in league history, among them Rose is the 2nd youngest ever.

2nd only to Wes Unseld who accomplished this remarkable feat a few 10 days or so younger. Now you can believe this is a testament to just how great Rose is, or how great of a season hes having, or you could take it as evidence that hes almost as unworthy as Wes was only taking advantage of being the "IT" story. I say almost because I do not believe Rose was that bad of a decision, Im just stating the similarities between the 2 candidates. Both players were a part of a team that shocked the world and did better than anyone imagined, the Bullets won 21 more games and Unseld was the biggest addition, he didnt have the stats but is well known as one of the greatest intangible players of all time.

Sadly those intangibles didnt quite seem to keep him in contention the OTHER years, you know once the story got stale. The Bullets were eliminated in R.1 depite HCA that year, though to be fair they faced a clearly superior team. Still that was the end of Unseld as an MVP contender, now you tell me if that sounds right. Unseld represents the worst MVP in History due to the fact that his candidacy relied most heavily on the story, for without it, he was never seen in that light.


Thats literally the only MVP I can place behind the current run by Rose, so is Rose the 27th Best MVP in History or is there someone Im forgetting?

You are lying about that one Wes Unseld won it when he was 23 years old, if Rose wins it he'll still be 22 years old meaning that will be the youngest age to win MVP.

TO to the CHI
04-01-2011, 09:08 AM
This really is a pointless thread and it is actually pretty disappointing coming from one of the best basketball posters on this site.

The argument and comparison to Unseld is written entirely based on the hindsight evaluation of the award and focuses on the fact that he didn't win it again, that his story got old, that his team got knocked out in the first round of the playoffs, and that Unseld never again competed for MVP.

Rose could win it this year and share a similar fate ..... or ..... he could lead his team to a championship this year, continue to work hard in the summers and become even better, win numerous MVP awards and titles, etc.

Rose's MVP campaign will not be fairly evaluated in a historical context until people have gained perspective on this season (once it is concluded) and really, on Rose's career overall. I suspect Chronz is smart enough to realize all of that. So I guess I am kind of confused as to what the point of this thread was.

Sofnr
04-01-2011, 09:56 AM
Rose is pretty likely to finish with a higher PER then Steve Nash did in both his MVP seasons.

Tarheels23
04-01-2011, 10:02 AM
is rose the best? no ,the worst or close to it? maybe,maybe not.competition level for the award changes yearly.take wade for instance that crazy year he had during lebron's first award would have netted him it in most years.just how it goes,nothing you can do about it.

I think this post is dead on. MVP campaigns vary from year to year and this year's race just happens to be weak.

basketfan4life
04-01-2011, 10:10 AM
I explained your point accurately. The fact that you also think that Dwight and Wade are also not good enough to be hated makes you look more foolish, but doesn't alter your comments about Rose. The funny thing is that Howard is better than Kobe at this point.

But keep digging, you'll get there eventually.

you are repeating yourself, i said twice i'm not talking about how good of baketball players they are.They are as sensational in no terms,they are not as big stars...also in the mvp thread i mentioned dwight as the best individual performer of the year.. you can find the logic if you try but you just try to bash me, keep doing it, good work...

actually i'm one of the biggest rose fans here out of bulls fans, but some of you guys know how to make people dislike rose.

AIRMAR72
04-01-2011, 10:11 AM
His MVP campaign is more because of the coach then everything else. Doesnt come close to Lebron's 2 MVP campaign season. He deserve to win it this year but if i had to rank him among the other 26 MVP's then he is at least closer to the 20th range IMO

CORRECT futhermore rose numbers are not even close to chris pauls the yr when it was clearly between chris paul are BRON but the league gave it to KOBE out of pity for the all yrs hes been in the league without 1

ManRam
04-01-2011, 10:13 AM
This whole MVP talk all season has gone from annoying, to hilarious, to annoying, back to hilarious again. The amount of scrutiny, realization, and digging has just been astounding. It's pretty great how we've gotten to the point of having to downplay the MVP now because Rose is the likely winner.

Now, I don't care what is thought about him anymore, nor am I disagreeing with the OP's claim. But at the end of the day, Rose becomes the MVP (assuming still), and people can spew the "but he's (one of) the worst MVP's ever" story as much as they want. Rose will take his trophy and keep working on his goal of an NBA Championship. And whoever wants to get mad about it, can cry until they puke.

You are disagreeing with the claim because you are providing nothing to prove the contrary.

I'm more inclined to agree with Chronz than not. I haven't looked into all the MVPs of past, but individually (this is not an individual award, and Chronz needs to remember that), this is without a doubt one of the weakest MVP seasons ever...it doesn't take much reason to figure that out. Just look at the last 10 MVP winners, all easily had more impressive individual years. I'm sure if you trace it futher back, that still holds true (MJ, Kareem, Bird, Wilt, Russel etc.).

Yes, at the end of the day he'll take his MVP trophy home and all that jazz...and good for him. He deserves it. His team has had a great year, but that doesn't mean he should be immune from this talk. Just because you win the award doesn't mean you can't be criticized. LeBron was criticized as much. Nash was criticized as much. Dirk got it. Even Duncan and Shaq got it.

The proof is in the pudding. He's deserving, for sure, but I truly believe that 10 years from now, when we can all take a step back and look at everything more objectively and not be caught up in the moment, this will be looked upon in a much different light...especially as people begin to be less stubborn about the telling power of advanced team and individual stats and can better accurately judge what makes a team go.

We aren't haters, I certainly hate a lot more players and teams more than Rose and the Bulls respectively, it's just hard not to think this when you step back and look at everything objectively. Hell, I've been saying for the last month+ that Rose deserves it. It's just that, individually, his stats aren't all-time great. If you look at why the team has improved, it isn't because of offensive purposes. If you look at the clutch stats, there have been better players (even among top 5 MVP candidates). You can keep going with reasons why it isn't an amazing individual year. Amazing TEAM year, not an all-time great individual year (best defense since the Celtics championship team). But again, Chronz and others need to realize this award is HEAVILY dependent on team play. LeBron, Dwight, Kobe and perhaps others all would make more on the open market for this one year of play; they are more "valuable", but that's not what the award seeks.

The annoying things are the Rose-defenders who bring nothing to the table but name-calling, back handed jabs and defensiveness. Attack his points, not him. Deconstruct his arguments. PROVE HIM WRONG. Don't just sit back and say how funny it is (I'm not really going at you Brent, more so the other Bulls fans, who I won't name, who never bring anything objective or tangible to the table, who instead just call Chronz names and ignore his incredibly valid and sound arguments).


With that said, at least off the top of my head, Nash's second MVP award was FAR less deserving that this. Iverson's is probably on an equal level of undeserving too. Both carried defensive teams to #1 records, but did so in very similar ways. Iverson is a guy who isn't looked at as impressively now as he was then...I think Rose's season this year is most analogous to that season.

Pierzynski4Prez
04-01-2011, 10:20 AM
Why do people care so god damn much? Specifically the OP. This MVP talk is waaaay drawn out. Some people need to find a hobby and just wait for the voting. Go fap it or something.

Mr Wonderful
04-01-2011, 10:32 AM
Some of you are really f***ing stupid; look at the 2 times Steve Nash won the MVP...judge his stats and Roses stats, and their impact they both had on their teams.

If you don't think Rose deserves the award, or is the worst or second worst selection to get the MVP :rolleyes:, then you need to kill yourself.

Bullsfan22
04-01-2011, 10:42 AM
another negative rose post..this forum is ohh soo predictable.

madvillian9
04-01-2011, 10:48 AM
jealousy

TO to the CHI
04-01-2011, 10:54 AM
You are disagreeing with the claim because you are providing nothing to prove the contrary.

I'm more inclined to agree with Chronz than not. I haven't looked into all the MVPs of past, but individually (this is not an individual award, and Chronz needs to remember that), this is without a doubt one of the weakest MVP seasons ever...it doesn't take much reason to figure that out. Just look at the last 10 MVP winners, all easily had more impressive individual years. I'm sure if you trace it futher back, that still holds true (MJ, Kareem, Bird, Wilt, Russel etc.).

Yes, at the end of the day he'll take his MVP trophy home and all that jazz...and good for him. He deserves it. His team has had a great year, but that doesn't mean he should be immune from this talk. Just because you win the award doesn't mean you can't be criticized. LeBron was criticized as much. Nash was criticized as much. Dirk got it. Even Duncan and Shaq got it.

The proof is in the pudding. He's deserving, for sure, but I truly believe that 10 years from now, when we can all take a step back and look at everything more objectively and not be caught up in the moment, this will be looked upon in a much different light...especially as people begin to be less stubborn about the telling power of advanced team and individual stats and can better accurately judge what makes a team go.

We aren't haters, I certainly hate a lot more players and teams more than Rose and the Bulls respectively, it's just hard not to think this when you step back and look at everything objectively. Hell, I've been saying for the last month+ that Rose deserves it. It's just that, individually, his stats aren't all-time great. If you look at why the team has improved, it isn't because of offensive purposes. If you look at the clutch stats, there have been better players (even among top 5 MVP candidates). You can keep going with reasons why it isn't an amazing individual year. Amazing TEAM year, not an all-time great individual year (best defense since the Celtics championship team). But again, Chronz and others need to realize this award is HEAVILY dependent on team play. LeBron, Dwight, Kobe and perhaps others all would make more on the open market for this one year of play; they are more "valuable", but that's not what the award seeks.

The annoying things are the Rose-defenders who bring nothing to the table but name-calling, back handed jabs and defensiveness. Attack his points, not him. Deconstruct his arguments. PROVE HIM WRONG. Don't just sit back and say how funny it is (I'm not really going at you Brent, more so the other Bulls fans, who I won't name, who never bring anything objective or tangible to the table, who instead just call Chronz names and ignore his incredibly valid and sound arguments).


With that said, at least off the top of my head, Nash's second MVP award was FAR less deserving that this. Iverson's is probably on an equal level of undeserving too. Both carried defensive teams to #1 records, but did so in very similar ways. Iverson is a guy who isn't looked at as impressively now as he was then...I think Rose's season this year is most analogous to that season.

Call me crazy, but you indicate that you are inclined to agree with Chronz and then include two strong examples of disagreement at the end.

As for whether these threads are created by Rose haters, I don't think that is necessarily the case (I don't believe that Chronz is a hater for example), but I do think that the attention that the Rose MVP issue is getting from all sides is overkill and causes everyone to take extreme positions that ignore other factors. There is no right approach to picking a subjective award. So really, people who are primarily focused on stats and people who focus on value to a player's team and people who focus on the best player on the best team all have valid arguments. The issue is that emotion tends to guide the arguments so people rip apart other theories.

You ask other to prove Chronz wrong, but he hasn't come back to defend his points here. I made what I consider to be a good point about historical context and the fact that without it, Rose's season can't be properly evaluated, particularly in comparison to an Unseld season that Chronz is judging by other factors. Chronz provided no analysis of any of the other MVP winners upon which we could conclude that Rose is definitively the second worst (assuming he even wins it). Moreover, reviewing the MVP winners in the last 15 years, there are several examples that seem surprising in hindsight. You noted Nash (one of my five favorite players, but you are spot on that 1, if not both, of his MVP awards was a little suspect) and AI (we agree completely). But there are others. What about Dirk winning in 2006-07? His numbers (24.6/8.9/3.4 on 50.2% shooting are very comparably to Rose; Dirk was a more efficient shooter, but that is somewhat expected by position although Dirk admittedly takes a lot of long range shots too). What is interesting though is that Dirk won for leading his team to first place (as Rose looks to be doing), but Dirk then was part of one of the biggest first round upsets in NBA history (worse than Unseld's I would say), yet Chronz doesn't mention this. He similarly ignores the fact that Dirk has rarely been considered as an MVP candidate again (this year could have been the exception) and is viewed by many as a choke artist. I am not trying to rip on Dirk, but the premise of the thread is flawed. There is no historical context and an incomplete picture of this season from which to judge Rose's MVP (if he wins it). Moreover, Chronz ignored tons of other winners who could be questioned. This is a shallow thread that could only have been designed to target Rose or inflame.

NJrockPD
04-01-2011, 10:55 AM
People get comfortable with LeBrons and Kobes of the NBA winning it every, but now that a new name comes into the equation we're all having a hard time accepting it.

LeBron was a great MVP candidate because he took the Cavs on his back and willed them into the playoffs year after year. Now he's on an all star team and in my opinion he is not as valuable to the Heat as he was to the Cavs.

Kobe led the Lakers to the top seed in the West and was playing very unselfish ball his MVP year. This was the first time it appeared he could do it without Shaq.

Nash had Stat and others, but he was definitely the glue that held those Suns teams together.

The point I'm trying to make is it seems the requirements of the NBA MVP award are as follows:
#1 You have to be on a 50+ win team. (usually #1 or #2 seed)
#2 You need to be the face of your team.
#3 The numbers have to be comparable to other top NBA players.

Rose is "the guy" on the Bulls, he is on the best team in the East, and he has good numbers. LeBron is competing with Wade and Bosh (not really) to be the face of the Heat, Kobe is putting up his lowest point total in 7 years, and Dwight isn't even on the best team in his division.

I'm not saying Rose is the best player in the NBA, but I think as far as MVP voting goes he has the best credentials.

DITKA4GOV
04-01-2011, 10:57 AM
No offense to fans of any contending team but Rose is going to come home with the MVP, we've heard the arguments for every candidate, regardless the hype machine that is Chicago will sway this argument in his favor. Rather than repeat the same tired rhetoric against Rose I decided to acknowledge the fact that the MVP process is open to interpretation and anyone can make sense out of anything, and the most popular story will run away with the award. To be clear Im not saying the MVP is worthless, just that not every MVP is treated equally. There have been 28 different MVP winners in league history, among them Rose is the 2nd youngest ever.

2nd only to Wes Unseld who accomplished this remarkable feat a few 10 days or so younger. Now you can believe this is a testament to just how great Rose is, or how great of a season hes having, or you could take it as evidence that hes almost as unworthy as Wes was only taking advantage of being the "IT" story. I say almost because I do not believe Rose was that bad of a decision, Im just stating the similarities between the 2 candidates. Both players were a part of a team that shocked the world and did better than anyone imagined, the Bullets won 21 more games and Unseld was the biggest addition, he didnt have the stats but is well known as one of the greatest intangible players of all time.

Sadly those intangibles didnt quite seem to keep him in contention the OTHER years, you know once the story got stale. The Bullets were eliminated in R.1 depite HCA that year, though to be fair they faced a clearly superior team. Still that was the end of Unseld as an MVP contender, now you tell me if that sounds right. Unseld represents the worst MVP in History due to the fact that his candidacy relied most heavily on the story, for without it, he was never seen in that light.


Thats literally the only MVP I can place behind the current run by Rose, so is Rose the 27th Best MVP in History or is there someone Im forgetting?


The hate for rose is just unbelievable. The fans, the city, nor the team has ran any major campaigns to get rose the MVP. His play on the court while missing two starters for extended time is what has gathered his well earned MVP annointment. Its coming from everywhere, players and coaches on other teams see it, why can't the people on psd? No he is not at the bottom of the list, as much as u would like to put him there. I'm assuming ur assessment comes from watching highlights and not sitting there and watching every game. He has willed his team to wins that they didn't deserve so many times this year its unbelievable. Stats don't always show value. Its the body of work in the circumstances he's done it in that is amazing.

However u want to quantify rose winning to make u and the rest of the rose haters happy is fine. By saying rose is the second worst MVP doesn't really prove anything. I'm taking this rose over 04-06 Nash and 07-08 Dirk and 92-93 Barkley easy. There isn't a more important player to his number 1 team than rose.

BTW- by saying u understand he's MVP, but hes one of the worst mvps doesn't hide ur hate that he's leading MVP discussions. It just makes readers like myself shake my head and discredit everything you write as blind hate.

TO to the CHI
04-01-2011, 10:57 AM
you are repeating yourself, i said twice i'm not talking about how good of baketball players they are.They are as sensational in no terms,they are not as big stars...also in the mvp thread i mentioned dwight as the best individual performer of the year.. you can find the logic if you try but you just try to bash me, keep doing it, good work...

actually i'm one of the biggest rose fans here out of bulls fans, but some of you guys know how to make people dislike rose.

So your point is that Rose, Wade and Howard aren't big enough stars to be hated? Yeah, still not seeing any legitimate basis for that one either. Heck, Rose and Lebron get way more attention these days then Kobe, which seems to end your theory right there.

pacofunk64
04-01-2011, 11:00 AM
thats true too...... different game back than with different players. people forget to account for that.

Ha, Ha, Ha...love the sig.

CTCUBBIES
04-01-2011, 11:18 AM
Man some of you people are blowhards. Can't you see all MVP is is a matter of semantics? To some people it is the best player in the league (Lebron) to others it is the guy whose team would be the worst off without him (Rose, Howard). Don't you understand the two camps will never meet? It's not even a basketball discussion it's a discussion on how you view the term "valuable." To some people numbers in the MVP race mean everything and to some its a part of the equation. Get over it - no one is saying Rose is better than Lebron statistically - just that they don't agree with your view of the award.

CTCUBBIES
04-01-2011, 11:20 AM
I'll also add that I live in Chicago and the "hype machine" you refer to is non-existent. In Chicao people are talking about how good of a team we have. I've heard very little MVP type talk - no one really cares cause we are too excited about possibly having home court advanrage through the ECF.

sammid21
04-01-2011, 11:21 AM
Why is there so much contreversy with this years MVP than any other year? is it because other teams fans dont want chicago to have another great player? are people tired of all the Jordan years that everyone speculates on Roses MVP canadicy?

this guy deserves it. he improved dramatically since he came in the league in every portion of his game. everyone speculated on
if he can develope a jump shot (improved)
if he can be a vocal leader (did that)
if he can be a top player in the league (is in the top ten)
sure bulls fans here are kind of annoying labeling him the next jordanesque player but Rose deserve a lot more credit than anyone has given him. to lead a team from a .500 team to number one in the east. sure you can say Thibs system did that, but if you see any Bulls games, you'l notice that Rose makes everyone around him better and you cannot just put scrubs out there without a superstar to run Thibs system and have an elite team

Raidaz4Life
04-01-2011, 11:29 AM
ugh..... I mean look, rose isnt the best player in the league but with what the bulls had to face this year, he deserves it hands down being the leader and carrying that team on offense no matter what anyone else has to say. i aint gonna lie though, i wouldnt be mad if howard or kobe got it over him

This is kind of the way I feel. I feel that the Bulls clearly were much better than most objective fans and analysts expected so it wouldn't necessarily upset me all that much in that regard. I kind of view him in the same sense as Dirk in 07. Did he have a particularly spectacular year? Not compared to the rest of the league. Thats not to say it wasn't great, simply that his numbers weren't mind blowing to the sense that he should be the clear cut favorite to win it all. But he is both the catalyst and leader of one of the top 3 teams in the league right now, and it makes a great story with the way the Bulls have completely turned their franchise around.

That being said I would have absolutely no problem with Howard receiving it either, I think if we were just simply going to crunch it down to individual impact to the team then Howard would be my guy.

However I am also now starting to accept Kobe as a legitimate MVP candidate as well with the Lakers simply manhandling their competition since the all star break, and much like Rose, Kobe is simply the driving force that is willing that team to win.


Really it is a toss up between any of those three players. I think if either the Bulls or Lakers finish the season with the best record in the league with both Kobe and Rose continuing to play exceptional ball then the voting should naturally be weighted in their favor.

Raidaz4Life
04-01-2011, 11:33 AM
Why is there so much contreversy with this years MVP than any other year? is it because other teams fans dont want chicago to have another great player? are people tired of all the Jordan years that everyone speculates on Roses MVP canadicy?

this guy deserves it. he improved dramatically since he came in the league in every portion of his game. everyone speculated on
if he can develope a jump shot (improved)
if he can be a vocal leader (did that)
if he can be a top player in the league (is in the top ten)
sure bulls fans here are kind of annoying labeling him the next jordanesque player but Rose deserve a lot more credit than anyone has given him. to lead a team from a .500 team to number one in the east. sure you can say Thibs system did that, but if you see any Bulls games, you'l notice that Rose makes everyone around him better and you cannot just put scrubs out there without a superstar to run Thibs system and have an elite team

I think this year more than any there is no real clear cut favorite simply because of how close the race for first is. Not to mention San Antonio doesn't have any real legitimate candidates.


And I am sorry but to suggest that the Bulls without Rose are "scrubs" is simply preposterous. This isn't the Cavaliers we are talking about here. (No offense to any cavs fans).

sammid21
04-01-2011, 12:03 PM
I think this year more than any there is no real clear cut favorite simply because of how close the race for first is. Not to mention San Antonio doesn't have any real legitimate candidates.


And I am sorry but to suggest that the Bulls without Rose are "scrubs" is simply preposterous. This isn't the Cavaliers we are talking about here. (No offense to any cavs fans).

Ive seen almost every bulls game since 1989 (damn i feel old) and this team without Rose would be a 30, maybe a 40 win team (east is weak after the top 6 teams), i get frustrated when everyone else, even boozer fail to create their own shot.

Without Rose this team would be at a standstill on the court because Rose flusters defenses with his penetration, Deng is the only one who shows signs of creating his shot, but he is too stiff and cant dribble, he is like Grant Hill but with far less athletisism, everyone else needs Rose to help them get good looks at the rim.

Sadds The Gr8
04-01-2011, 12:06 PM
No offense to fans of any contending team but Rose is going to come home with the MVP, we've heard the arguments for every candidate, regardless the hype machine that is Chicago will sway this argument in his favor. Rather than repeat the same tired rhetoric against Rose I decided to acknowledge the fact that the MVP process is open to interpretation and anyone can make sense out of anything, and the most popular story will run away with the award. To be clear Im not saying the MVP is worthless, just that not every MVP is treated equally. There have been 28 different MVP winners in league history, among them Rose is the 2nd youngest ever.

2nd only to Wes Unseld who accomplished this remarkable feat a few 10 days or so younger. Now you can believe this is a testament to just how great Rose is, or how great of a season hes having, or you could take it as evidence that hes almost as unworthy as Wes was only taking advantage of being the "IT" story. I say almost because I do not believe Rose was that bad of a decision, Im just stating the similarities between the 2 candidates. Both players were a part of a team that shocked the world and did better than anyone imagined, the Bullets won 21 more games and Unseld was the biggest addition, he didnt have the stats but is well known as one of the greatest intangible players of all time.

Sadly those intangibles didnt quite seem to keep him in contention the OTHER years, you know once the story got stale. The Bullets were eliminated in R.1 depite HCA that year, though to be fair they faced a clearly superior team. Still that was the end of Unseld as an MVP contender, now you tell me if that sounds right. Unseld represents the worst MVP in History due to the fact that his candidacy relied most heavily on the story, for without it, he was never seen in that light.


Thats literally the only MVP I can place behind the current run by Rose, so is Rose the 27th Best MVP in History or is there someone Im forgetting?

i'd agree with the to statements i bolded.

TO to the CHI
04-01-2011, 12:13 PM
i'd agree with the to statements i bolded.

Have you reviewed the previous 40 seasons. Thoughts on a comparison to Dirk in 2006-07? Or to Nash 1 or 2? Or to Iverson?

Or do you just want to bold the statement that Rose is the second worst MVP in Chronz's eyes (even though his argument is flawed and ignores many factors)?

allSUAVE
04-01-2011, 12:14 PM
nothing special ,if he wins most improved with it . which i think that's what he deserve then it would be top 10 .but nothing really special.

jtsunami
04-01-2011, 12:16 PM
:laugh:

Chronz making a new thread that has nothing other than the points he continually brings up in the MVP thread. Completely unnecessary. This thread is going to end up being identical to the current MVP thread. So instead of one, we will have two.

Chronz, want people's opinions on Rose's MVP year vs. Unseld's MVP year? Post it in the MVP thread.

Also, AI's MVP year was worse and let's keep on looking at Rose's stats since they adjust for the long absences of their 2nd and 4th leading scorers. Or that the SG position is (collectively) dead last is PPG.

Chronz
04-01-2011, 12:30 PM
another negative rose post..this forum is ohh soo predictable.
Its only negative because your taking him not being among the best MVP's in history as a personal diss


Why do people care so god damn much? Specifically the OP. This MVP talk is waaaay drawn out. Some people need to find a hobby and just wait for the voting. Go fap it or something.
Its a different take on the same old talk



This whole MVP talk all season has gone from annoying, to hilarious, to annoying, back to hilarious again. The amount of scrutiny, realization, and digging has just been astounding. It's pretty great how we've gotten to the point of having to downplay the MVP now because Rose is the likely winner.
Im just trying to put the award in historical perspective, downplay or not, its what I would be doing had anyone else won the award.


Now, I don't care what is thought about him anymore, nor am I disagreeing with the OP's claim. But at the end of the day, Rose becomes the MVP (assuming still), and people can spew the "but he's (one of) the worst MVP's ever" story as much as they want. Rose will take his trophy and keep working on his goal of an NBA Championship. And whoever wants to get mad about it, can cry until they puke.
No offense but I swear this is the same argument I had with AI fans a decade ago, still thats all fine and dandy, if you dont care about historical context of an achievement your free to leave the thread, however some people actually care about such questions. I am one of those few



Wes Unseld won mvp 40 years ago...I really dont see how someone can accurately judge if a person was deserving of an mvp award they weren't even alive to witness...
The game isnt that unique, I can literally know 90% of what I need to know about player simply by reading up on his history through various sources, digging through his stats, and watching some games. There is NO WAY Unseld was deserving of the MVP, but his peers were enamored with the story and a vote for Unseld hearken back to the good ol days where the underdog thrived. Bill Simmons mentions in his book, a vote for Unseld was a way of patting yourself on the back for knowing good basketball.


agreed on some, but i wouldnt credit thibs....... im not saying its in the top 15, but its not second to last like he is saying.
Then feel free to assess the question and correct me. Where exactly does it fall in the history books?



is rose the best? no ,the worst or close to it? maybe,maybe not.competition level for the award changes yearly.take wade for instance that crazy year he had during lebron's first award would have netted him it in most years.just how it goes,nothing you can do about it.

Its funny you mentioned it, I was thinking of just looking back through this decades runner ups, some 3rd place guys would have had stronger campaigns if they were in this running.



i think, if lakers stays perfect from here to the finishing line, this thread will be wortless
I hope your right, but then Ill just make another thread about Kobe.



This thread is already worthess. We have a MVP thread, why do we need another thread for each persons opinion?
This isnt about whos winning the MVP this year, its about where the MVP ranks from a HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE



This, it's just A shame people will go out of there way to diminish Rose's likely achievement by now ranking him with past MVP winners. Rose is such A humble likeable player but people wanna continually hate on him it's really sad .Rose is deserving of the MVP for leading his team to A great record and possible number one seed overall while everyone had the Bulls rated as maybe A 4-5 seed
Its such a shame that Bulls fans find a question regarding Rose's award so threatening. Unless you think all MVP's are treated equally, there is something legitimate to discuss.



You are lying about that one Wes Unseld won it when he was 23 years old, if Rose wins it he'll still be 22 years old meaning that will be the youngest age to win MVP.
Relax guy I wasnt "lying" I just misread his birth date, so yes Rose is in fact the YOUNGEST MVP ever. A sign that hes the greatest MVP winner, or that his infantile state makes it less credible? Which direction do you go?




This really is a pointless thread and it is actually pretty disappointing coming from one of the best basketball posters on this site.

The argument and comparison to Unseld is written entirely based on the hindsight evaluation of the award and focuses on the fact that he didn't win it again, that his story got old, that his team got knocked out in the first round of the playoffs, and that Unseld never again competed for MVP.

Rose could win it this year and share a similar fate ..... or ..... he could lead his team to a championship this year, continue to work hard in the summers and become even better, win numerous MVP awards and titles, etc.
I didnt mean to imply Rose would share a similar fate, quite frankly Rose has the statistics to always be in the conversation, the argument against Unseld was just to set the bar on what I consider the biggest MVP flop in history. Yes in hindsight it became clear, but you didnt need to wait to know what a fallacy it was.


Rose's MVP campaign will not be fairly evaluated in a historical context until people have gained perspective on this season (once it is concluded) and really, on Rose's career overall. I suspect Chronz is smart enough to realize all of that. So I guess I am kind of confused as to what the point of this thread was.
I see your point, while how he end his season does play a factor, I wouldnt really move him up or down the chain for a regular season award based on how he did in the playoffs. Like he could lose in R1 and I wouldnt think differently of it.

Avenged
04-01-2011, 12:30 PM
You are disagreeing with the claim because you are providing nothing to prove the contrary.

I'm more inclined to agree with Chronz than not. I haven't looked into all the MVPs of past, but individually (this is not an individual award, and Chronz needs to remember that), this is without a doubt one of the weakest MVP seasons ever...it doesn't take much reason to figure that out. Just look at the last 10 MVP winners, all easily had more impressive individual years. I'm sure if you trace it futher back, that still holds true (MJ, Kareem, Bird, Wilt, Russel etc.).

Yes, at the end of the day he'll take his MVP trophy home and all that jazz...and good for him. He deserves it. His team has had a great year, but that doesn't mean he should be immune from this talk. Just because you win the award doesn't mean you can't be criticized. LeBron was criticized as much. Nash was criticized as much. Dirk got it. Even Duncan and Shaq got it.

The proof is in the pudding. He's deserving, for sure, but I truly believe that 10 years from now, when we can all take a step back and look at everything more objectively and not be caught up in the moment, this will be looked upon in a much different light...especially as people begin to be less stubborn about the telling power of advanced team and individual stats and can better accurately judge what makes a team go.

We aren't haters, I certainly hate a lot more players and teams more than Rose and the Bulls respectively, it's just hard not to think this when you step back and look at everything objectively. Hell, I've been saying for the last month+ that Rose deserves it. It's just that, individually, his stats aren't all-time great. If you look at why the team has improved, it isn't because of offensive purposes. If you look at the clutch stats, there have been better players (even among top 5 MVP candidates). You can keep going with reasons why it isn't an amazing individual year. Amazing TEAM year, not an all-time great individual year (best defense since the Celtics championship team). But again, Chronz and others need to realize this award is HEAVILY dependent on team play. LeBron, Dwight, Kobe and perhaps others all would make more on the open market for this one year of play; they are more "valuable", but that's not what the award seeks.

The annoying things are the Rose-defenders who bring nothing to the table but name-calling, back handed jabs and defensiveness. Attack his points, not him. Deconstruct his arguments. PROVE HIM WRONG. Don't just sit back and say how funny it is (I'm not really going at you Brent, more so the other Bulls fans, who I won't name, who never bring anything objective or tangible to the table, who instead just call Chronz names and ignore his incredibly valid and sound arguments).


With that said, at least off the top of my head, Nash's second MVP award was FAR less deserving that this. Iverson's is probably on an equal level of undeserving too. Both carried defensive teams to #1 records, but did so in very similar ways. Iverson is a guy who isn't looked at as impressively now as he was then...I think Rose's season this year is most analogous to that season.

This is a good post although I would not agree with the OP necessarily.. Who cares if Rose is second to worse MVP behind a player hardly anyone remembers. Looks like some really deep thought was behind this just to take a jab at Rose. :shrug:

allSUAVE
04-01-2011, 12:46 PM
Mvp means nothing really steve nash won it twice and he would of trade both for a finals mvp ,so who cares but bulls fans

Chronz
04-01-2011, 12:49 PM
You ask other to prove Chronz wrong, but he hasn't come back to defend his points here. I made what I consider to be a good point about historical context and the fact that without it, Rose's season can't be properly evaluated, particularly in comparison to an Unseld season that Chronz is judging by other factors. Chronz provided no analysis of any of the other MVP winners upon which we could conclude that Rose is definitively the second worst (assuming he even wins it).
I didnt see the point in listing all the prior MVP's, Id rather do this by process of elimination.



Moreover, reviewing the MVP winners in the last 15 years, there are several examples that seem surprising in hindsight. You noted Nash (one of my five favorite players, but you are spot on that 1, if not both, of his MVP awards was a little suspect) and AI (we agree completely).
I could see the case for AI being less impressive (that sounds much better than the worst MVP talk people are trying to use here), the 2 were identical statistically and with regards to their roles, what would make AI's worse is the fact that he robbed 3-4 dominant bigmen in their prime.

As for Nash, Shaq was the better choice his first year, Dirk his 2nd, but the year after his 2nd MVP Nash was arguably the most deserving. Heres the thing about Nash though, he was the architect for some of the greatest offenses in league history, a team that without him absolutely fell apart.

To me the MVP is about 4 things, Individual Excellence, Intangible Worth, Team Performance(what they get from their squad), and Exposure/Story Telling. Nash trumps Rose in every aspect, so while Nash may be within vicinity I think he has a better case on his own than Rose.



But there are others. What about Dirk winning in 2006-07? His numbers (24.6/8.9/3.4 on 50.2% shooting are very comparably to Rose;
By what measure were they comparable to Rose? His efficiency was through the roof, when Dirk won the MVP he had the best efficiency to usage ratio in the league, he was arguably the best player in the game and was having his 2nd best season ever while winning a crapload of games off of his brilliance. He actually deserved to win it the year Nash won his 2nd but he was a fine choice that year as well.


Dirk was a more efficient shooter, but that is somewhat expected by position although Dirk admittedly takes a lot of long range shots too). What is interesting though is that Dirk won for leading his team to first place (as Rose looks to be doing), but Dirk then was part of one of the biggest first round upsets in NBA history (worse than Unseld's I would say), yet Chronz doesn't mention this. He similarly ignores the fact that Dirk has rarely been considered as an MVP candidate again (this year could have been the exception) and is viewed by many as a choke artist. I am not trying to rip on Dirk, but the premise of the thread is flawed. There is no historical context and an incomplete picture of this season from which to judge Rose's MVP (if he wins it). Moreover, Chronz ignored tons of other winners who could be questioned. This is a shallow thread that could only have been designed to target Rose or inflame.
Nope, it was only meant to spark a discussion. Dirk has an undeserved rep of a choker and its the primary reason why he didnt win the MVP beforehand. Without the aid of the surprise story boost, him finally breaking through and defeating Duncan to make the Finals was a necessary step to win besides its not as if he was never in contention for the award, he was among the top 3 thrice, regularly in the top8. And again I didnt ignore anything, I am leaving it up to you guys to bring to my attention.

Chronz
04-01-2011, 12:52 PM
The hate for rose is just unbelievable. The fans, the city, nor the team has ran any major campaigns to get rose the MVP. His play on the court while missing two starters for extended time is what has gathered his well earned MVP annointment. Its coming from everywhere, players and coaches on other teams see it, why can't the people on psd? No he is not at the bottom of the list, as much as u would like to put him there. I'm assuming ur assessment comes from watching highlights and not sitting there and watching every game. He has willed his team to wins that they didn't deserve so many times this year its unbelievable. Stats don't always show value. Its the body of work in the circumstances he's done it in that is amazing.
Dont really care for the non bolded part of your post, you can take that argument to the MVP thread, this is about where his campaign ranks. You say it doesnt rank amongst the least impressive but you dont actually argue why.


However u want to quantify rose winning to make u and the rest of the rose haters happy is fine. By saying rose is the second worst MVP doesn't really prove anything. I'm taking this rose over 04-06 Nash and 07-08 Dirk and 92-93 Barkley easy. There isn't a more important player to his number 1 team than rose.

Thats more like it, you know based on the logic youve used here others would think your a hater of Nash, Dirk, and Chuck. Is that true? Are you a HATER?


BTW- by saying u understand he's MVP, but hes one of the worst mvps doesn't hide ur hate that he's leading MVP discussions. It just makes readers like myself shake my head and discredit everything you write as blind hate.

Dont care about what people think, only what they can back up. Feel free to do so on the points regarding his MVPeers

Chronz
04-01-2011, 12:56 PM
This is kind of the way I feel. I feel that the Bulls clearly were much better than most objective fans and analysts expected so it wouldn't necessarily upset me all that much in that regard. I kind of view him in the same sense as Dirk in 07. Did he have a particularly spectacular year? Not compared to the rest of the league. Thats not to say it wasn't great, simply that his numbers weren't mind blowing to the sense that he should be the clear cut favorite to win it all. But he is both the catalyst and leader of one of the top 3 teams in the league right now, and it makes a great story with the way the Bulls have completely turned their franchise around.

If the argument against Dirk is a statistical one, it will come up short. His stats wont blow you away if you dont care for anything but superficial averages, but if you care about efficiency and per possession metrics, they lead the league.

Dirk had the best stats, the most wins, and his replacement value was immense. I dont see how its comparable, at all, to Rose

Sofnr
04-01-2011, 01:06 PM
I'm not sure their is much point in comparing an individual season now to one that happened 30 years ago but here is the PER of some past MVP winners.
Derrick Rose 2010-11 23.4 PER
Kobe Bryant 2007-8 24.2 PER
Steve Nash 2005-6 23.3 PER
Steve Nash 2004-5 22.0 PER
Allen Iverson 2000-1 24.0 PER
Larry Bird 1983-84 24.2 PER
Moses Malone 1978-79 23.7 PER
Dave Cowers 1972-73 18.1 PER
Willis Reed 69-70 20.3 PER
Wes Unseld 68-69 18.1 PER
Bill Russell 64-65 19.5 PER
Bill Russell 62-63 18.2 PER
Bill Russell 61-62 19.4 PER
Bill Russell 60-61 18.1 PER
Bill Russell 57-58 22.8 PER
Bob Cousy 56-57 21.1 PER

Lu's Dynasty
04-01-2011, 01:07 PM
I think if Rose does actually win the MVP he'd be the youngest ever to win the award. I might have read the OP wrong though. Unseld was 23 and some days while Rose won't be 23 until October 4th.

Bullsfan22
04-01-2011, 01:13 PM
This is a good post although I would not agree with the OP necessarily.. Who cares if Rose is second to worse MVP behind a player hardly anyone remembers. Looks like some really deep thought was behind this just to take a jab at Rose. :shrug:

Yeah. What him and Chronz say about Rose is not untrue but it's consistently in a negative aspect. It really bounces around from posting articles in the mvp thread to making threads like these. It's been about 4 or 5 now to my knowledge. I honestly wouldn't be upset if someone like Dirk or kobe won mvp so these threads doesn't really bother me but it is a trend in their posting that I noticed that's perfectly fine pointing out.

Like I said I'm not calling it hating because for the most part it's backed up with valid points.

BcEuAbRsS
04-01-2011, 01:14 PM
I'm not sure their is much point in comparing an individual season now to one that happened 30 years ago but here is the PER of some past MVP winners.
Derrick Rose 2010-11 23.4 PER
Kobe Bryant 2007-8 24.2 PER
Steve Nash 2005-6 23.3 PER
Steve Nash 2004-5 22.0 PER
Allen Iverson 2000-1 24.0 PER
Larry Bird 1983-84 24.2 PER
Moses Malone 1978-79 23.7 PER
Dave Cowers 1972-73 18.1 PER
Willis Reed 69-70 20.3 PER
Wes Unseld 68-69 18.1 PER
Bill Russell 64-65 19.5 PER
Bill Russell 62-63 18.2 PER
Bill Russell 61-62 19.4 PER
Bill Russell 60-61 18.1 PER
Bill Russell 57-58 22.8 PER
Bob Cousy 56-57 21.1 PER

Nice post...

Even if someone did want to place him 27th out of 28th I dont understand how its a bad thing... MVP is the most recongnized award for the regular season along with having the #1 seed I suppose... Rose will prolly have both and now its a bad thing?

OP... please explain why it would be such a bad thing to be 27th? If its not than what exactly is the point of this thread other to dismiss what Rose has done this season?

Bookey
04-01-2011, 01:17 PM
I'm not sure their is much point in comparing an individual season now to one that happened 30 years ago but here is the PER of some past MVP winners.
Derrick Rose 2010-11 23.4 PER
Kobe Bryant 2007-8 24.2 PER
Steve Nash 2005-6 23.3 PER
Steve Nash 2004-5 22.0 PER
Allen Iverson 2000-1 24.0 PER
Larry Bird 1983-84 24.2 PER
Moses Malone 1978-79 23.7 PER
Dave Cowers 1972-73 18.1 PER
Willis Reed 69-70 20.3 PER
Wes Unseld 68-69 18.1 PER
Bill Russell 64-65 19.5 PER
Bill Russell 62-63 18.2 PER
Bill Russell 61-62 19.4 PER
Bill Russell 60-61 18.1 PER
Bill Russell 57-58 22.8 PER
Bob Cousy 56-57 21.1 PER

Exactly, Advanced stats are BS & only benefit players who pad there stats (Lebron). I mean look at Bill Russell's PER.

BcEuAbRsS
04-01-2011, 01:21 PM
Exactly, Advanced stats are BS & only benefit players who pad there stats (Lebron). I mean look at Bill Russell's PER.

I disagree... stats suggest that Rose needs to shoot better... and watching the games I agree...

smiddy012
04-01-2011, 01:52 PM
I disagree... stats suggest that Rose needs to shoot better... and watching the games I agree...

Yeah, Rose needs to stop throwing up a half-courter every game, he needs to care about his stats, who cares about weeeeeeeeeening?

Raidaz4Life
04-01-2011, 02:15 PM
If the argument against Dirk is a statistical one, it will come up short. His stats wont blow you away if you dont care for anything but superficial averages, but if you care about efficiency and per possession metrics, they lead the league.

Dirk had the best stats, the most wins, and his replacement value was immense. I dont see how its comparable, at all, to Rose

My point was simply that a team's success will often outweigh your individual performance. Dirk has only won the MVP once, he has only finished in the top 5 3 times. Yet his statistics have been relatively consistent throughout his entire career. In the 07 season sure his numbers were marginally better but hardly enough to go from finishing 1st one season to 11th the next season.


When teams (as teams) overachieve, the superstar of the team often gets more credit than he deserves. That is simply the category that Rose falls into right now. That is the category that Kobe will fall into at the end of the season. That is the category Dirk fell into in 07 and Nash the two years he won it.

If you want to get technical based on best stats, Nash should have won it in 07 which is actually the only year he should have won it imo.

redwhitenblue
04-01-2011, 02:24 PM
I'm slightly amazed this thread is still open, considering the mods closed a Rose MVP thread yesterday because there were already 4 or 5 open and the fact that this thread's origin contains no actual stats or facts, just one person's opinion on the situation and not actually asking anyone else's opinion, just stating the OP's opinion.



Rose can be the worst MVP the NBA has ever had for all I care, he'll still be the MVP

droalex
04-01-2011, 02:27 PM
Bulls have yet to experience a 3 game loosing streak =o

Chronz
04-01-2011, 02:29 PM
I'm slightly amazed this thread is still open, considering the mods closed a Rose MVP thread yesterday because there were already 4 or 5 open and the fact that this thread's origin contains no actual stats or facts, just one person's opinion on the situation and not actually asking anyone else's opinion, just stating the OP's opinion.



Rose can be the worst MVP the NBA has ever had for all I care, he'll still be the MVP

Literally nothing you said was true. This thread is still open because its an argument independent of the theme behind the MVP thread, this is putting the campaign in historical context. Im more amazed that you would be so threatened by this thread that you would want it merged with the others.

The origins of this thread present a case, I end the post with a question.

jtsunami
04-01-2011, 02:36 PM
Literally nothing you said was true. This thread is still open because its an argument independent of the theme behind the MVP thread, this is putting the campaign in historical context. Im more amazed that you would be so threatened by this thread that you would want it merged with the others.

The origins of this thread present a case, I end the post with a question.

And this thread could be discussed in the MVP thread! Historical context or not, it is a general discussion capable of being had in the general MVP thread.

A) You are assuming he wins before the award is handed out.
B) Your basis on starting the thread is on pure opinion.
C) There is already a thread for opinions like this, hence it should be merged.
D) This is another way for you to slight Derrick Rose and join together a discussion b/w Rose haters and Rose lovers. Just ****ing stop already.

redwhitenblue
04-01-2011, 02:38 PM
Literally nothing you said was true. This thread is still open because its an argument independent of the theme behind the MVP thread, this is putting the campaign in historical context. Im more amazed that you would be so threatened by this thread that you would want it merged with the others.

The origins of this thread present a case, I end the post with a question.
It's really not putting it into historical context. It's you saying what campaign YOU Think was worse and why that was a storied MVP year.

You, quite surprisingly, list no statistics except the increase in Bullets wins and provide no analysis or comparison to any other year.

Literally, pretty much everything I said is true, go read your first post and explain what I said that was false.

If you want another name to compare, go with Willis Reed the year after Unseld, not tremendously impressive.

Pierzynski4Prez
04-01-2011, 02:43 PM
Chronz, so if LBJ or D12 win the MVP over Rose. I imagine it will be by a very, very narrow margin. I think you could agree with that, right?

So if Rose winning the MVP will make him the 2nd worse (27th best) MVP of all time, but if Dwight edges him out, does that mean Dwight will be like the 25th or 26th worse MVP of all time since he barely even won the award over the person who in your opinion would be the 2nd worst MVP ever?

flea
04-01-2011, 03:15 PM
Chronz, so if LBJ or D12 win the MVP over Rose. I imagine it will be by a very, very narrow margin. I think you could agree with that, right?

So if Rose winning the MVP will make him the 2nd worse (27th best) MVP of all time, but if Dwight edges him out, does that mean Dwight will be like the 25th or 26th worse MVP of all time since he barely even won the award over the person who in your opinion would be the 2nd worst MVP ever?

Lol, it doesn't work like that. Howard is a monster and probably deserves MVP based on value added to his team, but big men rarely win it.

redwhitenblue
04-01-2011, 03:19 PM
Lol, it doesn't work like that. Howard is a monster and probably deserves MVP based on value added to his team, but big men rarely win it.
Um...what?

The award was dominated by C's the first 25 years, and Shaq and T-Dunc have had their number of MVP's the last decade.

Pierzynski4Prez
04-01-2011, 03:51 PM
Um...what?

The award was dominated by C's the first 25 years, and Shaq and T-Dunc have had their number of MVP's the last decade.

Hakeem and Robinson too in the 90s. He said Big men too, so toss in Malone, Barkley, KG, even Dirk. 10x since 92 season has a big man won MVP, so over half. I guess that is "rarely" winning it.

BcEuAbRsS
04-01-2011, 03:53 PM
Yeah, Rose needs to stop throwing up a half-courter every game, he needs to care about his stats, who cares about weeeeeeeeeening?

Go ahead and take away his 19 half-court shots and his FG% still isnt where it should be...

SteveNash
04-01-2011, 04:14 PM
Second worst all time behind AI.

Jewelz0376
04-01-2011, 04:16 PM
Lol, it doesn't work like that. Howard is a monster and probably deserves MVP based on value added to his team, but big men rarely win it.

How do you figure? In the last 20 years a pf or c has won the award half the time

godolphins
04-01-2011, 04:19 PM
One of the worst of all time

Chronz
04-01-2011, 04:30 PM
And this thread could be discussed in the MVP thread! Historical context or not, it is a general discussion capable of being had in the general MVP thread.

A) You are assuming he wins before the award is handed out.
B) Your basis on starting the thread is on pure opinion.
C) There is already a thread for opinions like this, hence it should be merged.
D) This is another way for you to slight Derrick Rose and join together a discussion b/w Rose haters and Rose lovers. Just ****ing stop already.

Thats not your call to make, at your rate we may as well start creating player specific threads for the likes of Rose/Bron/Kobe. This is a totally separate concept from the MVP thread, I made it out here and not in there because it would be available for people who may not have considered the awards significance.

A) Of course
B) To which I issued an open challenge
C) There is no thread for this topic
D) Its funny how this is the last one you mention yet is so evidently the most important to you, oh no another thread the fanboys cannot answer without having to put their boy under a microscope.

Instead of complaining that more people saw the thread because it wasnt hidden away in the redundancy thread, you should focus on the argument.

Also, if you havent noticed ALOT of articles pertaining to the MVP have been left out the main thread for awhile, this is because its a relevant SIDE-Issue to the discussion.

Sadds The Gr8
04-01-2011, 04:32 PM
second worst all time behind ai.

+1

Chronz
04-01-2011, 04:41 PM
It's really not putting it into historical context. It's you saying what campaign YOU Think was worse and why that was a storied MVP year.
Yes welcome to the art of the debate, proper etiquette dictates that you then comment on your beliefs.


You, quite surprisingly, list no statistics except the increase in Bullets wins and provide no analysis or comparison to any other year.

Thats because I only cite statistics when people inquire about something tangible. I didnt go into specific detail for Unseld because this thread isnt devoted to him, its about Rose. If you feel Unseld had a greater MVP season than Rose then more power to you, I guess thats one you can cross off.


Literally, pretty much everything I said is true, go read your first post and explain what I said that was false.

Its pretty easy actually;
and not actually asking anyone else's opinion, just stating the OP's opinion.
Remember that gem?

My OP (and sentiment Ive reiterated a few times already):
Thats literally the only MVP I can place behind the current run by Rose, so is Rose the 27th Best MVP in History or is there someone Im forgetting?

Seems to me Im asking to be proven wrong


If you want another name to compare, go with Willis Reed the year after Unseld, not tremendously impressive.

Maybe, Id love to hear your reasoning so long as we both agree Reed was clearly more impressive than Unseld, I felt he wouldve been the most logical choice the year prior. Compared to Rose, I dont see it but that makes for a good starting point, typically a guy I find underrated (Some Knick fans put him below Ewing), hes not a mega legend but those Knicks teams are well regarded.

Chronz
04-01-2011, 04:51 PM
Chronz, so if LBJ or D12 win the MVP over Rose. I imagine it will be by a very, very narrow margin. I think you could agree with that, right?

So if Rose winning the MVP will make him the 2nd worse (27th best) MVP of all time, but if Dwight edges him out, does that mean Dwight will be like the 25th or 26th worse MVP of all time since he barely even won the award over the person who in your opinion would be the 2nd worst MVP ever?
Your making my head hurt, IF Dwight gets the award, then the criteria would have as well. Every players argument depends on what got him there were. The reason I look down on Unselds campaign is due to the fact that he was never again seen as an MVP type player, his statistical production was severely lacking. The best thing anyone could say about him was how great his intangibles were and mention the teams giant turnaround, what I call the story.

To create a good story you need to emphasize findings that are lacking in perspective or analysis, your essentially punishing guys like Reed or West or any legend you want to mention that season for not having the misfortune of being injured the year prior, so that we may now subject that part of the equation as evidence to their impact. The truth is Unseld had alot to do with the turnaround, but you dont give the MVP for doing something any other clearly superior Center could have done, you give it to the guys doing the stuff others cant, with a hint of team success added to it. Wes winning and his story earned him the MVP more than his actual play.

If Dwight were to win the award it would mean he overcame the hot story and won it despite a lesser team. It would certainly rank above the fringe guys like AI and Nash

haggis
04-01-2011, 04:54 PM
Chronz-

You a Bill Simmons fan?

BcEuAbRsS
04-01-2011, 04:59 PM
Your making my head hurt, IF Dwight gets the award, then the criteria would have as well. Every players argument depends on what got him there were. The reason I look down on Unselds campaign is due to the fact that he was never again seen as an MVP type player, his statistical production was severely lacking. The best thing anyone could say about him was how great his intangibles were and mention the teams giant turnaround, what I call the story.

To create a good story you need to emphasize findings that are lacking in perspective or analysis, your essentially punishing guys like Reed or West or any legend you want to mention that season for not having the misfortune of being injured the year prior, so that we may now subject that part of the equation as evidence to their impact. The truth is Unseld had alot to do with the turnaround, but you dont give the MVP for doing something any other clearly superior Center could have done, you give it to the guys doing the stuff others cant, with a hint of team success added to it. Wes winning and his story earned him the MVP more than his actual play.

If Dwight were to win the award it would mean he overcame the hot story and won it despite a lesser team. It would certainly rank above the fringe guys like AI and Nash

Thats horrible reasoning IMO... its a single season award... HOF takes care of the career aspect :D

BcEuAbRsS
04-01-2011, 05:01 PM
I'm not sure their is much point in comparing an individual season now to one that happened 30 years ago but here is the PER of some past MVP winners.
Derrick Rose 2010-11 23.4 PER
Kobe Bryant 2007-8 24.2 PER
Steve Nash 2005-6 23.3 PER
Steve Nash 2004-5 22.0 PER
Allen Iverson 2000-1 24.0 PER
Larry Bird 1983-84 24.2 PER
Moses Malone 1978-79 23.7 PER
Dave Cowers 1972-73 18.1 PER
Willis Reed 69-70 20.3 PER
Wes Unseld 68-69 18.1 PER
Bill Russell 64-65 19.5 PER
Bill Russell 62-63 18.2 PER
Bill Russell 61-62 19.4 PER
Bill Russell 60-61 18.1 PER
Bill Russell 57-58 22.8 PER
Bob Cousy 56-57 21.1 PER

Funny how nobody argued against this :rolleyes:

Chronz
04-01-2011, 05:13 PM
Chronz-

You a Bill Simmons fan?

A fan of his devotion, IQ and humor

Not a fan of his statistical analysis or simplified theories like those of the "alpha male"

haggis
04-01-2011, 05:16 PM
A fan of his devotion, IQ and humor

Not a fan of his statistical analysis or simplified theories like those of the "alpha male"

Gotcha. Just wanted to check if you saw his article today. It's more of the same that you hate (narrative stuff), but still touches on some good points.

I'm a big fan of Simmons, but I can agree with your assessment.

Chronz
04-01-2011, 05:16 PM
Thats horrible reasoning IMO... its a single season award... HOF takes care of the career aspect :D

Certainly if you win the award at your most infantile state, as a Rookie, logic would dictate that you would atleast have a few years where your considered again. So you must consider why he dropped out, was it reduced ability (nope), Its not as if his teams were never elite again and he didnt sustain a serious injury until much later in his career. So what died? The Hype

Still that wasnt the only part of my argument if you really dont see the point Im making.

Chronz
04-01-2011, 05:18 PM
Funny how nobody argued against this :rolleyes:

Could you fill me in on what was being argued, I dont think he said anything, he just posted PER.



Gotcha. Just wanted to check if you saw his article today. It's more of the same that you hate (narrative stuff), but still touches on some good points.

I'm a big fan of Simmons, but I can agree with your assessment.
Thx for the heads up, I usually save his work for the weekends when Im away from my computer but sounds interesting.

BcEuAbRsS
04-01-2011, 05:21 PM
Certainly if you win the award at your most infantile state, as a Rookie, logic would dictate that you would atleast have a few years where your considered again. So you must consider why he dropped out, was it reduced ability (nope), Its not as if his teams were never elite again and he didnt sustain a serious injury until much later in his career. So what died? The Hype

Still that wasnt the only part of my argument if you really dont see the point Im making.

I bolded the part I didnt agree with... thus making it the only part I was referencing ...

Its still a single season award... career shouldnt matter in any aspect...

The hype died? What MVP hasnt been hyped? Thats pretty lame IMO too...

Edit: Lebron has lost hype this season hasnt he? Does that mean he shouldnt of won his previous 2 awards?

BcEuAbRsS
04-01-2011, 05:23 PM
Could you fill me in on what was being argued, I dont think he said anything, he just posted PER.


Thx for the heads up, I usually save his work for the weekends when Im away from my computer but sounds interesting.

PER would would clearly disagree with the statement of Rose being second worse...

nitric
04-01-2011, 05:30 PM
Chronz, I see you on almost every major forum with the anti-rose campaign :laugh2: Good dedication

Chronz
04-01-2011, 05:32 PM
PER would would clearly disagree with the statement of Rose being second worse...

Let me get this straight, in an argument about the MVP (which is suppose to be the logical culmination of production, intangible worth, team success, and hype) he focuses on a tiny part of that puzzle, with a stat that wasnt created to stand on its own? Particularly when that example is Russell (quite possibly the greatest defensive force in the game) you know the main thing PER doesnt pretend to account for.

PER is a good tool but lets not use it on its own to dictate our rationale.

Chronz
04-01-2011, 05:34 PM
Chronz, I see you on almost every major forum with the anti-rose campaign :laugh2: Good dedication

I didnt reply to a few of the newer threads, and think what you wish but do you admit it falls short in comparison to his MVPeers?

BcEuAbRsS
04-01-2011, 05:37 PM
Let me get this straight, in an argument about the MVP (which is suppose to be the logical culmination of production, intangible worth, team success, and hype) he focuses on a tiny part of that puzzle, with a stat that wasnt created to stand on its own? Particularly when that example is Russell (quite possibly the greatest defensive force in the game) you know the main thing PER doesnt pretend to account for.

PER is a good tool but lets not use it on its own to dictate our rationale.

So you do get it...

sargon21
04-01-2011, 05:46 PM
So, Rose is the best of a weak MVP season, is basically what you're getting at. Because with Dwight's team being 7.5 GB, and Lebron having D-Wade on his side, those two certainly aren't more worthy than Rose. So, Rose will be the winner of a weak MVP class? That's what I'm supposed to take out of this...

SteveNash
04-01-2011, 05:50 PM
PER would would clearly disagree with the statement of Rose being second worse...

PER is just estimated before '77. So removing the estimates what you have is Rose as being the second worse MVP in NBA history after Nash.

PatsSoxKnicks
04-01-2011, 05:51 PM
Not gonna lie, when I first saw the thread, I thought it was some overexcited Bulls fan who wanted to talk about Rose's place in all-time history. But then I saw that Chronz was the OP, and so obviously it was going to be a legit thread.

sargon21
04-01-2011, 05:54 PM
Not gonna lie, when I first saw the thread, I thought it was some overexcited Bulls fan who wanted to talk about Rose's place in all-time history. But then I saw that Chronz was the OP, and so obviously it was going to be a legit thread.

a legit thread :laugh:

BcEuAbRsS
04-01-2011, 05:59 PM
So, Rose is the best of a weak MVP season, is basically what you're getting at. Because with Dwight's team being 7.5 GB, and Lebron having D-Wade on his side, those two certainly aren't more worthy than Rose. So, Rose will be the winner of a weak MVP class? That's what I'm supposed to take out of this...

Yep... worst MVP ever! Kinda like being the poorest billionaire ever!

kingbrentg
04-01-2011, 06:59 PM
You are disagreeing with the claim because you are providing nothing to prove the contrary.

Not really. That doesn't even really make sense the way I initially read it, which I'm sure isn't what you meant, haha. I'm disagreeing because I'm not proving him wrong? Wouldn't that be a great sign that I don't disagree?

Now, if you mean it as I'm providing nothing to show that I disagree with his claim, that's still not true. I can disagree with the incessant nature and necessity of Rose's scrutiny without disagreeing with the actual point. It just honestly gets old seeing it constantly. Which is where I should have ignored the thread at the time.



Yes, at the end of the day he'll take his MVP trophy home and all that jazz...and good for him. He deserves it. His team has had a great year, but that doesn't mean he should be immune from this talk. Just because you win the award doesn't mean you can't be criticized. LeBron was criticized as much. Nash was criticized as much. Dirk got it. Even Duncan and Shaq got it.

And I acknowledged that he will still be criticized and didn't say it's unwarranted at all. I merely said if anyone wants to be mad about it (which you know many will), then so be it, because there are more important issues that Derrick (and most Bulls fans) will be worried about. And I'm definitely still going to be happy that he won the one of, if not the, most prestigious individual awards in the NBA.



The proof is in the pudding. He's deserving, for sure, but I truly believe that 10 years from now, when we can all take a step back and look at everything more objectively and not be caught up in the moment, this will be looked upon in a much different light...especially as people begin to be less stubborn about the telling power of advanced team and individual stats and can better accurately judge what makes a team go.

That may be true, and I doubt I'd have much problem with it come that time.

However, I still don't think stubbornness toward putting too much weight into statistics should fade. Basketball still isn't like baseball, and there are far too many variables in the sport to rely too heavily on just a statistic.



We aren't haters, I certainly hate a lot more players and teams more than Rose and the Bulls respectively, it's just hard not to think this when you step back and look at everything objectively. Hell, I've been saying for the last month+ that Rose deserves it. It's just that, individually, his stats aren't all-time great. If you look at why the team has improved, it isn't because of offensive purposes. If you look at the clutch stats, there have been better players (even among top 5 MVP candidates). You can keep going with reasons why it isn't an amazing individual year. Amazing TEAM year, not an all-time great individual year (best defense since the Celtics championship team). But again, Chronz and others need to realize this award is HEAVILY dependent on team play. LeBron, Dwight, Kobe and perhaps others all would make more on the open market for this one year of play; they are more "valuable", but that's not what the award seeks.

I am only quoting this to clear up that I didn't call anyone I'm responding to a hater (the same isn't true for many posters in this forum though).

The rest I mostly agree with.



The annoying things are the Rose-defenders who bring nothing to the table but name-calling, back handed jabs and defensiveness. Attack his points, not him. Deconstruct his arguments. PROVE HIM WRONG. Don't just sit back and say how funny it is (I'm not really going at you Brent, more so the other Bulls fans, who I won't name, who never bring anything objective or tangible to the table, who instead just call Chronz names and ignore his incredibly valid and sound arguments).

I do think the extent of things has gotten funny and/or annoying [the main reason I just stay out of this forum (at least MVP/Bulls/Rose thread) all together most of the time]. But I'll say it again that I don't disagree with his point in this thread, it's merely the persistence of the whole conversation wearing on me.

Now I've disagreed with Chronz on things in the past, no doubt. With further discussion than this current issue.



With that said, at least off the top of my head, Nash's second MVP award was FAR less deserving that this. Iverson's is probably on an equal level of undeserving too. Both carried defensive teams to #1 records, but did so in very similar ways. Iverson is a guy who isn't looked at as impressively now as he was then...I think Rose's season this year is most analogous to that season.

I personally don't think having a more lacking offensive team should discredit the fact that Rose and Iverson carried those defensive teams' offenses. The stellar defense is still nothing without an offensive player/team to put enough points up.

It's also not like the Bulls run a completely inept offense anyway. They run one of the slower paces in the league, but are in the upper half of the league in efficiency.

Thibs is definitely not known for his offensive prowess, as I believe it was stated in an article somewhere that over 90% of his practices are spent drilling on defense. Watching the Bulls all season on offense it is obvious how many times Rose has simply willed that offense on his own. Without that from Rose, there is no #1 seed Chicago Bulls.



Im just trying to put the award in historical perspective, downplay or not, its what I would be doing had anyone else won the award.

I understand that. My approach (as it usually is) should have been to ignore the thread at the hour that I read it anyway. But that's what becomes of being awake after a long night and reading something that has worn on you.



No offense but I swear this is the same argument I had with AI fans a decade ago, still thats all fine and dandy, if you dont care about historical context of an achievement your free to leave the thread, however some people actually care about such questions. I am one of those few

I'm unaware of the past MVP talks, so pardon me if I unknowingly take it to be incessant downplay of Rose. That's simply most of what I've seen from several posters all season.

Bears99
04-01-2011, 07:09 PM
^bang^

Chronz
04-01-2011, 07:17 PM
So, Rose is the best of a weak MVP season, is basically what you're getting at. Because with Dwight's team being 7.5 GB, and Lebron having D-Wade on his side, those two certainly aren't more worthy than Rose. So, Rose will be the winner of a weak MVP class? That's what I'm supposed to take out of this...

so you agree, historically its among the least impressive?

Jenceman
04-01-2011, 08:01 PM
It's annoying that very few,if any, are actually providing counterarguments. It's all just insults.

ManRam
04-01-2011, 08:03 PM
Call me crazy, but you indicate that you are inclined to agree with Chronz and then include two strong examples of disagreement at the end.

As for whether these threads are created by Rose haters, I don't think that is necessarily the case (I don't believe that Chronz is a hater for example), but I do think that the attention that the Rose MVP issue is getting from all sides is overkill and causes everyone to take extreme positions that ignore other factors. There is no right approach to picking a subjective award. So really, people who are primarily focused on stats and people who focus on value to a player's team and people who focus on the best player on the best team all have valid arguments. The issue is that emotion tends to guide the arguments so people rip apart other theories.

You ask other to prove Chronz wrong, but he hasn't come back to defend his points here. I made what I consider to be a good point about historical context and the fact that without it, Rose's season can't be properly evaluated, particularly in comparison to an Unseld season that Chronz is judging by other factors. Chronz provided no analysis of any of the other MVP winners upon which we could conclude that Rose is definitively the second worst (assuming he even wins it). Moreover, reviewing the MVP winners in the last 15 years, there are several examples that seem surprising in hindsight. You noted Nash (one of my five favorite players, but you are spot on that 1, if not both, of his MVP awards was a little suspect) and AI (we agree completely). But there are others. What about Dirk winning in 2006-07? His numbers (24.6/8.9/3.4 on 50.2% shooting are very comparably to Rose; Dirk was a more efficient shooter, but that is somewhat expected by position although Dirk admittedly takes a lot of long range shots too). What is interesting though is that Dirk won for leading his team to first place (as Rose looks to be doing), but Dirk then was part of one of the biggest first round upsets in NBA history (worse than Unseld's I would say), yet Chronz doesn't mention this. He similarly ignores the fact that Dirk has rarely been considered as an MVP candidate again (this year could have been the exception) and is viewed by many as a choke artist. I am not trying to rip on Dirk, but the premise of the thread is flawed. There is no historical context and an incomplete picture of this season from which to judge Rose's MVP (if he wins it). Moreover, Chronz ignored tons of other winners who could be questioned. This is a shallow thread that could only have been designed to target Rose or inflame.

First, I think Chronz is one of, if not the most knowledgable NBA posters here. He knows his stuff, and I've heard his spiel on this enough. He's done plenty of explaining, but yes, he should come back and do more (which he has done). Problem is, people just respond calling him names and tell him he's arguing in circles (he's not, he just has to repeat things because people ignore them). Why bother responding to that. We all know how hard it is to find intelligence half the time here. The NBA forum has a bad reputation on this site for a reason...

Secondly, I named two other examples...so basically where I am now I have Rose as the 4th worst individual MVP year ever :shrug: I'm not convinced he is having a better year than AI either...so Unsled, Nash, and maybe AI...

I'm in a hurry. I'll come back and read the rest of this thread later.

ManRam
04-01-2011, 08:09 PM
Not really. That doesn't even really make sense the way I initially read it, which I'm sure isn't what you meant, haha. I'm disagreeing because I'm not proving him wrong? Wouldn't that be a great sign that I don't disagree?

Now, if you mean it as I'm providing nothing to show that I disagree with his claim, that's still not true. I can disagree with the incessant nature and necessity of Rose's scrutiny without disagreeing with the actual point. It just honestly gets old seeing it constantly. Which is where I should have ignored the thread at the time.




And I acknowledged that he will still be criticized and didn't say it's unwarranted at all. I merely said if anyone wants to be mad about it (which you know many will), then so be it, because there are more important issues that Derrick (and most Bulls fans) will be worried about. And I'm definitely still going to be happy that he won the one of, if not the, most prestigious individual awards in the NBA.




That may be true, and I doubt I'd have much problem with it come that time.

However, I still don't think stubbornness toward putting too much weight into statistics should fade. Basketball still isn't like baseball, and there are far too many variables in the sport to rely too heavily on just a statistic.




I am only quoting this to clear up that I didn't call anyone I'm responding to a hater (the same isn't true for many posters in this forum though).

The rest I mostly agree with.




I do think the extent of things has gotten funny and/or annoying [the main reason I just stay out of this forum (at least MVP/Bulls/Rose thread) all together most of the time]. But I'll say it again that I don't disagree with his point in this thread, it's merely the persistence of the whole conversation wearing on me.

Now I've disagreed with Chronz on things in the past, no doubt. With further discussion than this current issue.




I personally don't think having a more lacking offensive team should discredit the fact that Rose and Iverson carried those defensive teams' offenses. The stellar defense is still nothing without an offensive player/team to put enough points up.

It's also not like the Bulls run a completely inept offense anyway. They run one of the slower paces in the league, but are in the upper half of the league in efficiency.

Thibs is definitely not known for his offensive prowess, as I believe it was stated in an article somewhere that over 90% of his practices are spent drilling on defense. Watching the Bulls all season on offense it is obvious how many times Rose has simply willed that offense on his own. Without that from Rose, there is no #1 seed Chicago Bulls.


Like I just responded, I'm in a hurry...but explain to me, simply, how this isn't one of the weaker MVP seasons ever. I think that's the first step. Show me 5 individual season that were worse. I think it probably could be done...but do it. That's how you prove someone wrong.

If we start from there, the rest of our arguments will fall into place.

And of course there are always more important things to be more mad about. If we only focused on those things, none of use would be here ;) That would defeat the purpose of these forums. Would it not?

BcEuAbRsS
04-01-2011, 08:10 PM
It's annoying that very few,if any, are actually providing counterarguments. It's all just insults.

He based it off of his opinion... he provided nothing at all...

My opinion is that he is wrong... you happy?

BcEuAbRsS
04-01-2011, 08:35 PM
^any fresh fruit?^

Jenceman
04-01-2011, 08:38 PM
He based it off of his opinion... he provided nothing at all...

My opinion is that he is wrong... you happy?

Prove him wrong, then I'll be happy.

Or at least attempt to.

BcEuAbRsS
04-01-2011, 08:45 PM
Prove him wrong, then I'll be happy.

Or at least attempt to.

He didnt like the one presented to him b4... the one regarding PER...

Look at one of my first posts... that sums up how I feel...

sargon21
04-01-2011, 08:49 PM
so you agree, historically its among the least impressive?

I'm not sure I agree or disagree, but this really shouldn't be slanted towards Rose, just the race in the general, and how no one is completely standing out.
But, with Rose being the clear leader on the top team in the East, I just don't see a good enough argument against him. Rose's MVP has to at least be greater than Nash's because the Suns weren't even at the top of their conference, correct?

Sofnr
04-01-2011, 08:54 PM
Here are a few past MVP seasons that compare to Rose's using Win Shares.

Derick Rose 2010-11 0.202 WS/48
Kobe Bryant 20007-8 0.208 WS/48
Steve Nash 2005-6 0.212 WS/48
Steve Nash 2004-5 0.203 WS/48
Allen Iverson 2000-1 0.190 WS/48
Larry Bird 1983-4 0.215 WS/48
Moses Malone 1981-2 0.218 WS/48
Moses Malone 1978-9 0.200 WS/48
Dave Cowens 1972-73 0.168 WS/48
Wes Unseld 1968-69 0.175 WS/48
Bill Russell 1962-63 0.185 WS/48
Bill Russell 1960-61 0.181 WS/48
Bill Russell 1957-58 0.206 WS/48
Bob Cousy 1956-57 0.178 WS/48

kingbrentg
04-01-2011, 09:42 PM
Like I just responded, I'm in a hurry...but explain to me, simply, how this isn't one of the weaker MVP seasons ever. I think that's the first step. Show me 5 individual season that were worse. I think it probably could be done...but do it. That's how you prove someone wrong.

If we start from there, the rest of our arguments will fall into place.

And of course there are always more important things to be more mad about. If we only focused on those things, none of use would be here ;) That would defeat the purpose of these forums. Would it not?

I said I wasn't out to prove him wrong and mostly agreed? :laugh2:

Chronz
04-01-2011, 10:03 PM
Here are a few past MVP seasons that compare to Rose's using Win Shares.

Derick Rose 2010-11 0.202 WS/48
Kobe Bryant 20007-8 0.208 WS/48
Steve Nash 2005-6 0.212 WS/48
Steve Nash 2004-5 0.203 WS/48
Allen Iverson 2000-1 0.190 WS/48
Larry Bird 1983-4 0.215 WS/48
Moses Malone 1981-2 0.218 WS/48
Moses Malone 1978-9 0.200 WS/48
Dave Cowens 1972-73 0.168 WS/48
Wes Unseld 1968-69 0.175 WS/48
Bill Russell 1962-63 0.185 WS/48
Bill Russell 1960-61 0.181 WS/48
Bill Russell 1957-58 0.206 WS/48
Bob Cousy 1956-57 0.178 WS/48

Knowing what you know of the limitations and benefits of the stats available, what does your list of the 5 least impressive MVP campaigns look like.

Chronz
04-01-2011, 10:05 PM
He based it off of his opinion... he provided nothing at all...

My opinion is that he is wrong... you happy?

Saying my opinion is wrong without explanation is significantly less informative than me briefly expressing mine. I can go into the details once the argument starts, it begins with you naming those players with clearly inferior runs. If you can come up with more than a handful Ill be thoroughly impressed.

sargon21
04-01-2011, 10:53 PM
Posts some stats to defend your theory about him being the 2nd worst player ever to receive an MVP ("27th Best MVP in history") or this is all ********.

Sofnr
04-01-2011, 11:01 PM
Knowing what you know of the limitations and benefits of the stats available, what does your list of the 5 least impressive MVP campaigns look like.

Bob Cousy
Dave Cowens
Wes Unseld
Allen Iverson
Derrick Rose

Sofnr
04-01-2011, 11:10 PM
Here are a few more stats from those five.


Derrick Rose .439FG% 25 PTS 7.9 AST 4.1 TRB .542 TS%

Bob Cousy .378 FG% 20.6 PTS 7.5 AST 4.8 TRB .452 TS%

Wes Unseld 476 FG% 13.8 PTS 2.6 AST 18.2 TRB .515 TS%

Dave Cowens .452 FG% 20.5 PTS 4.1 AST 16.2 TRB .481 TS%

Allen Iverson .420 FG% 31.1 PTS 4.6 AST 3.8 TRB .518 TS%

DaBear
04-01-2011, 11:12 PM
Cry all you want, Chronz. Rose will win MVP, and you can rank him where you want based off your bias. Just keep thinking Rose is MVP and Howard is not.

sargon21
04-01-2011, 11:21 PM
All of those guys had worse stats than Rose, and is Rose at 7.6APG a typo?, he was at 7.9 b4 2nite.

BcEuAbRsS
04-01-2011, 11:25 PM
All of those guys had worse stats than Rose, and is Rose at 7.6APG a typo?, he was at 7.9 b4 2nite.

yea it is... he had 8 tonight for the record...

Sofnr
04-01-2011, 11:32 PM
All of those guys had worse stats than Rose, and is Rose at 7.6APG a typo?, he was at 7.9 b4 2nite.

That was my mistake. Fixed.

Chronz
04-01-2011, 11:47 PM
Cry all you want, Chronz. Rose will win MVP, and you can rank him where you want based off your bias. Just keep thinking Rose is MVP and Howard is not.
Of course I have my own rankings, this thread is about your rankings. Post some instead of ranting


Posts some stats to defend your theory about him being the 2nd worst player ever to receive an MVP ("27th Best MVP in history") or this is all ********.
You want me to list all the MVP's in history and explain why they had better seasons? The reason I was asking you guys to tell me who Im missing because its the easier task.

Swashcuff
04-01-2011, 11:52 PM
Not gonna lie, when I first saw the thread, I thought it was some overexcited Bulls fan who wanted to talk about Rose's place in all-time history. But then I saw that Chronz was the OP, and so obviously it was going to be a legit thread.

Same here. It's always good to take a read when Chronz is the OP.

ManRam
04-02-2011, 09:24 AM
I said I wasn't out to prove him wrong and mostly agreed? :laugh2:

Fair enough. Be naive then ;) no, but i get what you're coming at. I'm getting your posts convoluted withthe rest and throwing things in i shouldn't. Your stance on this is certainly fine...

I guess this is more of the type of post i was responding to. Again, i am on my phone now but when i can, im in the mood to do some break down today. I'll throw a bottom 10 list together...and I'm sure that regardless of who wins this year, they'd probably be a bottom 10 MVP. Doesn't make them not deserving...I'm certainly at least fully aboard the rose deserves it bandwagon...but nonetheless...


He based it off of his opinion... he provided nothing at all...

My opinion is that he is wrong... you happy?

bagwell368
04-02-2011, 09:30 AM
Wes Unseld won mvp 40 years ago...I really dont see how someone can accurately judge if a person was deserving of an mvp award they weren't even alive to witness...

The league was looking for new blood IMO, sick of the Wilt/Russell domination of the award. He was a very good player, that was his best year - in recent times KG's '08 blew it away, and he didn't win it, did he?

Yeah I saw him play that year, and more later (much more) he is still IMO the greatest outlet passer of a rebound that I ever saw - while still in the air. Outside of that think Big Baby Davis with no outside shot and add 15% Moses Malone, and that was Wes.

MGB
04-02-2011, 11:02 AM
I don't hate Rose but he's certainly not a "great guy". He's a cheater and a liar, and while I don't have evidence of it I'd be willing to guess he's an egomaniac as well.

REALLY?? I mean, I'm not saying that he's squeeky clean when it comes to the whole college thing, but come on; college sports are a complete farce in general. Maybe it's just me, but I don't really hold any of that stuff against anyone as a human being. When you look at the whole system, it's just built on corruption.

Most everything you see/read about Derrick Rose will lead a reasonable person to believe that he's a pretty humble guy and not even close to being an egomaniac. If you pay attention, you'll see that he's basically a polar opposite of someone like LeBron.

quade36
04-02-2011, 12:18 PM
Some young kid looks up stats in the 70s and thinks he knows. The MVP ISN'T ABOUT STATS. If it was called BEST PLAYER OF THE LEAGUE AWARD then your constant bashings would make sense. The question you have to ask yourself is where would the teams with players in the running be without their top candidate.

Heat, well I think Dwayne Wade is much more valuable to their team then Lebron. Besides that, if the Head didn't have Lebron do they make the playoffs? Yes. Seed, probably around 5 or 6. They'd still be better than the Knicks, 76ers, and Pacers.

Lakers, without Kobe thats still a good veteran team. Pau Gasol is so underrated its ridiculous. He is probably in the top 3 for best power forwards in the league. My guess is they'd be right around 6th seed without Bryant.

Bulls, taking their injuries into consideration without Rose would they be better than the Pacers? Very debatable. So you take Rose off that team it doesn't even make the playoffs, well maybe they are the 8th seed but I'd think Charlotte would be a better team. Thats in a weak Eastern Conference too.

But, if you want to rank based on greatest MVPs ever based on stats alone. Well, then by your statement it should be possible for players to win the MVP for a last place team. Ala Alex Rodriguez with the Rangers or Andre Dawson with the Cubs. You can't include playoffs at all, which you did with the Wes Unseld example because they really don't matter

quade36
04-02-2011, 12:18 PM
Some young kid looks up stats in the 70s and thinks he knows. The MVP ISN'T ABOUT STATS. If it was called BEST PLAYER OF THE LEAGUE AWARD then your constant bashings would make sense. The question you have to ask yourself is where would the teams with players in the running be without their top candidate.

Heat, well I think Dwayne Wade is much more valuable to their team then Lebron. Besides that, if the Heat didn't have Lebron do they make the playoffs? Yes. Seed, probably around 5 or 6. They'd still be better than the Knicks, 76ers, and Pacers.

Lakers, without Kobe thats still a good veteran team. Pau Gasol is so underrated its ridiculous. He is probably in the top 3 for best power forwards in the league. My guess is they'd be right around 6th seed without Bryant.

Bulls, taking their injuries into consideration without Rose would they be better than the Pacers? Very debatable. So you take Rose off that team it doesn't even make the playoffs, well maybe they are the 8th seed but I'd think Charlotte would be a better team. Thats in a weak Eastern Conference too.

But, if you want to rank based on greatest MVPs ever based on stats alone. Well, then by your statement it should be possible for players to win the MVP for a last place team. Ala Alex Rodriguez with the Rangers or Andre Dawson with the Cubs. You can't include playoffs at all, which you did with the Wes Unseld example because they really don't matter

bagwell368
04-02-2011, 06:12 PM
Here are a few more stats from those five.


Derrick Rose .439FG% 25 PTS 7.9 AST 4.1 TRB .542 TS%

Bob Cousy .378 FG% 20.6 PTS 7.5 AST 4.8 TRB .452 TS%

Wes Unseld 476 FG% 13.8 PTS 2.6 AST 18.2 TRB .515 TS%

Dave Cowens .452 FG% 20.5 PTS 4.1 AST 16.2 TRB .481 TS%

Allen Iverson .420 FG% 31.1 PTS 4.6 AST 3.8 TRB .518 TS%

Offensive stats only? Try taking a look at the defensive stats for Unseld and Cowens.

Also consider the way assists were counted in Cousy's time, these days he'd be at 12-14 range.

flea
04-02-2011, 06:34 PM
REALLY?? I mean, I'm not saying that he's squeeky clean when it comes to the whole college thing, but come on; college sports are a complete farce in general. Maybe it's just me, but I don't really hold any of that stuff against anyone as a human being. When you look at the whole system, it's just built on corruption.

Most everything you see/read about Derrick Rose will lead a reasonable person to believe that he's a pretty humble guy and not even close to being an egomaniac. If you pay attention, you'll see that he's basically a polar opposite of someone like LeBron.

So you're saying that because other people may be cheating as much or more that Rose's cheating and lying isn't as bad? I'm not saying he's the worst person in the world, but he's no role model.

Also, and along the same lines, just because Rose doesn't have as big of an ego as perhaps the biggest egomaniac in sports today doesn't mean he's humble.

If you want high character and humble in a superstar, look no further than Kevin Durant.

RIPSweetness34
04-02-2011, 07:10 PM
Ur right Chronz, u only comment on Rose and Bulls threads because they are the most talked about and intriguing. Only now, you are creating them so it shows that you are completely full of **** and clearly just a hater that is trying to base everything purely off stats. I've already figured out who you are, ur the guy who could never play the games so you were "team manager" and kept all the stats for everyone. Because of that, you have associated everything you know about sports with pure numbers and nothing else. Joe Montana wasn't the best statistical QB of all time, but because he performed at the biggest moments and has the most rings many consider him one of the best. Bottom line, you can post on every single Rose thread you want with every sinlgle possible excuse you can find but the kid keeps winning, and beating legit teams to boot.

ManRam
04-02-2011, 07:30 PM
Ur right Chronz, u only comment on Rose and Bulls threads because they are the most talked about and intriguing. Only now, you are creating them so it shows that you are completely full of **** and clearly just a hater that is trying to base everything purely off stats. I've already figured out who you are, ur the guy who could never play the games so you were "team manager" and kept all the stats for everyone. Because of that, you have associated everything you know about sports with pure numbers and nothing else. Joe Montana wasn't the best statistical QB of all time, but because he performed at the biggest moments and has the most rings many consider him one of the best. Bottom line, you can post on every single Rose thread you want with every sinlgle possible excuse you can find but the kid keeps winning, and beating legit teams to boot.

His team keeps winning. ;)

Shareeb_omac2
04-02-2011, 07:44 PM
Derrick Rose shouldn't be the MVP this season in all honesty. I know all of Chicago is going to reply to this with a "lol" or a smug comment but take a look at history and compare his campaign with several other point guards that have done way more and didn't win it.

Yeah, yeah... I've heard all the arguments. Boozer, Noah, and Deng aren't a shabby supporting cast.

heatking
04-02-2011, 07:48 PM
Guys that deserve the MVP ahead of rose:

Lebron
Wade
D12
Kobe
CP3
Dirk
Manu
Parker
Rondo
Pierce
Westbrook
KD
Pau
THIBS

KINGBAIZE
04-02-2011, 08:07 PM
Derrick Rose shouldn't be the MVP this season in all honesty. I know all of Chicago is going to reply to this with a "lol" or a smug comment but take a look at history and compare his campaign with several other point guards that have done way more and didn't win it.

Yeah, yeah... I've heard all the arguments. Boozer, Noah, and Deng aren't a shabby supporting cast.

Yea...and he just won without them for a combined 50 games.

Lebron can't say that.

KINGBAIZE
04-02-2011, 08:11 PM
Guys that deserve the MVP ahead of rose:

Lebron
Wade
D12
Kobe
CP3
Dirk
Manu
Parker
Rondo
Pierce
Westbrook

THIBS

^^^ Prime example of a hater.

In all honesty...the only thing Lebron has over D.Rose is 4 inches of height and more weight, which gets him his 5 extra rebounds...and 5 more free throws per game given by the referees. Other than that... they're practically identical.

Points/ Assist. Lebron leads in points by about 1.5... Rose leads in assist by about 1.5... the difference is "ROSE" WINS GAMES!...and has won them without our key players for a long period of time.

MVP! Derrick ROSE!

KINGBAIZE
04-02-2011, 08:16 PM
LETS SEE.....

Lebron<<<< beat him ...3 times
Wade <<< 3 times
D12 <<< beat him and shut him down
Kobe <<< yep...him too!... and he struggled
CP3 <<< I think he scored 11 points in his loss. Rose had like 30
Dirk <<< CHECK.... beat him too!
Manu <<< Boy did he show off on them! Blow out.
Parker <<< ouch.
Rondo <<<< Yep...him too. Does he still exist?
Pierce <<<< ummm... sorry Mr. Pierce
Westbrook<<<< YEP... he's fast...but not fast enough. (Twice)
KD <<<< He scored...but not enough
Pau<<< WHO?


AND THATS WHY D.ROSE IS MVP! We've beaten ALL OF THOSE TEAMS, and he showed off on all ofe'm!

quade36
04-02-2011, 08:43 PM
Guys that deserve the MVP ahead of rose:

Lebron
Wade


I still don't understand how two people from the same team be in consideration for the MVP. That makes completely no sense. Its okay if you don't think Rose deserves it, or one of the two players do. But MVP stand for most valuable player, not players. Are you sure you aren't thinking of the goat?

KINGBAIZE
04-02-2011, 09:16 PM
:eyebrow:
I find it interesting that Rose's "supreme" playmaking/constant double teams, has led to the top scorers on this team performing no better than their career averages. I also have to once again laugh @ Rose carrying this team offensively when he his scoring efficiency this season ranks 7th on the team.

1. Korver 58.5%
2. Noah 56.2%
3. Boozer 55.5%
4. Deng 54.3%
5. Bogans 53.7%
6. Asik 53.6%
7. Rose 53.3%[/QUOTE]

The only thing you just proved is that D. Rose is really winning with players that would be considered ordinary players without a true champion like D. Rose leading them..:D

And yes...his efficiency will be lower, when he asked to be the leading scorer and distributor for the team!....thats MAJOR responsibility, and something that no other PG in the league is asked to do!...including D.Williams, Rhondo, C.Paul, and S. Nash.
ROSE on the other hand has to lead this team in scoring because "HE DOSN"T HAVE A SG!

KINGBAIZE
04-02-2011, 09:19 PM
LETS SEE.....

Lebron<<<< beat him ...3 times
Wade <<< 3 times
D12 <<< beat him and shut him down
Kobe <<< yep...him too!... and he struggled
CP3 <<< I think he scored 11 points in his loss. Rose had like 30
Dirk <<< CHECK.... beat him too!
Manu <<< Boy did he show off on them! Blow out.
Parker <<< ouch.
Rondo <<<< Yep...him too. Does he still exist?
Pierce <<<< ummm... sorry Mr. Pierce
Westbrook<<<< YEP... he's fast...but not fast enough. (Twice)
KD <<<< He scored...but not enough
Pau<<< WHO?


AND THATS WHY D.ROSE IS MVP! We've beaten ALL OF THOSE TEAMS, and he showed off on all ofe'm!

I see NOBODY wants to talk about this ^^^^^^^^^^
How can you ignore that when discussin MVP????

ManRam
04-02-2011, 09:33 PM
The only thing you just proved is that D. Rose is really winning with players that would be considered ordinary players without a true champion like D. Rose leading them.[/B].:D

And yes...his efficiency will be lower, when he asked to be the leading scorer and distributor for the team!....thats MAJOR responsibility, and something that no other PG in the league is asked to do!...including D.Williams, Rhondo, C.Paul, and S. Nash.
ROSE on the other hand has to lead this team in scoring because "HE DOSN"T HAVE A SG!

Noah, Boozer and Deng would be "ordinary" players without Rose? Come on man...


Nash is his team's leading scorer and distributor.
Deron was and is his team's leading scorer and distributor.
And even now Paul is now his team's leading scorer and distributor.

You're right about Rondo.

DLeeicious
04-02-2011, 09:46 PM
in all seriousness out of the 28 mvps he ranks number 2 behind Jordan. (based on my own criteria since we're being subjective)

JordansBulls
04-03-2011, 09:53 AM
Guys that deserve the MVP ahead of rose:

Lebron
Wade
D12
Kobe
CP3
Dirk
Manu
Parker
Rondo
Pierce
Westbrook
KD
Pau
THIBS

:bang::crazy:

None of those in bold should be ahead of Rose at all.

JordansBulls
04-03-2011, 09:56 AM
Depending on how many wins we get this year will show where he ranks. For instance the highest amount of wins ever for a team that only had one player from that team make the allstar team was 1998 Bulls and 1998 Jazz where both 62 games. Next would be 1991 Bulls and 2010 Cavs were both teams won 61 games. If the Bulls win 61 games this year Rose will be in that elite company.

Now if we are looking at stats, then yes he would probably be on the lower end of the 28 MVP winners. Maybe something like in the 22 to 26 range. Whatever the case Rose's MVP this year will be more justified than Nash's 2 MVP's when Nash didn't even lead his team in PER nor Win Shares either year.

BcEuAbRsS
04-03-2011, 10:19 AM
Guys that deserve the MVP ahead of rose:

Lebron
Wade
D12
Kobe
CP3
Dirk
Manu
Parker
Rondo
Pierce
Westbrook
KD
Pau
THIBS

No.

Hawkeye15
04-03-2011, 11:12 AM
Wes Unseld won mvp 40 years ago...I really dont see how someone can accurately judge if a person was deserving of an mvp award they weren't even alive to witness...

Chronz was alive and of age to see what was happening, so...

metsbulls1025
04-03-2011, 11:14 AM
Guys that deserve the MVP ahead of rose:

Lebron
Wade
D12
Kobe
CP3
Dirk
Manu
Parker
Rondo
Pierce
Westbrook
KD
Pau
THIBS

Guys that deserve to post here instead of you:

EVERYONE

Hawkeye15
04-03-2011, 11:21 AM
Bulls fans, its not hate for Rose. In reality, Rose is going to win the weakest MVP race I can remember, and he is getting the criticism that comes with it. If Howard won it, he would be getting it. If Kobe won it, he would be getting it. If LeBron won it, he would be getting it. And so on and so on.

Point is, Rose isn't a top 5 player in the NBA, and is the product of the best storyline in the NBA this season, and the #1 player on the best defensive team, and best team record wise in the east, so he naturally has a very strong case to win it.

I think many fans here simply aren't used to having their team/players on top, and when they get their, they aren't ready for the criticism that comes along with it from the general fans. Grow some thicker skin would be my advice

Avenged
04-03-2011, 11:33 AM
Bulls fans, its not hate for Rose. In reality, Rose is going to win the weakest MVP race I can remember, and he is getting the criticism that comes with it. If Howard won it, he would be getting it. If Kobe won it, he would be getting it. If LeBron won it, he would be getting it. And so on and so on.

Point is, Rose isn't a top 5 player in the NBA, and is the product of the best storyline in the NBA this season, and the #1 player on the best defensive team, and best team record wise in the east, so he naturally has a very strong case to win it.

I think many fans here simply aren't used to having their team/players on top, and when they get their, they aren't ready for the criticism that comes along with it from the general fans. Grow some thicker skin would be my advice

Speaking like a true fan who's team is always on top. :worthy:

;)

Hawkeye15
04-03-2011, 11:48 AM
Speaking like a true fan who's team is always on top. :worthy:

;)

I have been a Yankees fan since I was 8. And its still true. General fans hate superstars, and elite teams many times. If you are a die hard fan of those teams, you need thick skin.

ManRam
04-03-2011, 12:21 PM
Bulls fans, its not hate for Rose. In reality, Rose is going to win the weakest MVP race I can remember, and he is getting the criticism that comes with it. If Howard won it, he would be getting it. If Kobe won it, he would be getting it. If LeBron won it, he would be getting it. And so on and so on.

Point is, Rose isn't a top 5 player in the NBA, and is the product of the best storyline in the NBA this season, and the #1 player on the best defensive team, and best team record wise in the east, so he naturally has a very strong case to win it.

I think many fans here simply aren't used to having their team/players on top, and when they get their, they aren't ready for the criticism that comes along with it from the general fans. Grow some thicker skin would be my advice


Good post.

In addition, they need to learn to just ignore people like HeatKing who are clearly just going out of their way, creating multiple threads, to slander Rose. That's a tiny population of the people out there. You can't bundle them in with the rest. Those guys aren't worth the time.

No MVP is ever free of criticism. Every MVP gets compared to his peers, to other MVPs of recent and of past. It's not hate, it's not unfair, and it's not anything unordinary.


And I can't believe you're a Yankee fan. Gross.

Hawkeye15
04-03-2011, 12:38 PM
=ManRamForPrez24;17337755]Good post.

In addition, they need to learn to just ignore people like HeatKing who are clearly just going out of their way, creating multiple threads, to slander Rose. That's a tiny population of the people out there. You can't bundle them in with the rest. Those guys aren't worth the time.

No MVP is ever free of criticism. Every MVP gets compared to his peers, to other MVPs of recent and of past. It's not hate, it's not unfair, and it's not anything unordinary.


And I can't believe you're a Yankee fan. Gross.[/
haha, well honestly, my grandfather loved them, passed it onto my Dad. I was watching any available Yankee game starting at age 6, and it was basically something I could do with my Dad. Mattingly was my favorite player when I was a kid, and I just grew up liking them for family reasons. But I don't follow baseball like I do basketball. Season is just too long for me

yoseppii12
04-03-2011, 12:40 PM
Rose's potential MVP, if anything should be given to him in a package with the MIP. He has literally improved at every statistical aspect of his game except FG% but someone that jumps from 72 and 60 3PT attempts his first two seasons all the way to 360 ytd this season will obviously have their FG% go down.

*if you just 2PT FGs only his percentage isn't that much worse; 49%, 50%, and 47% this year.

However, his pts, rebounds, assists, FGM (after another 1 or 2 games), FTM, blocks, assists, steals are all up this year. Some of them are up by a ton too. (3PTM +650%, FTM +69%, Asts +27%, Steals +42%, Blocks +78%, Pts +16%) Sure his turnovers have gone up (he is the only legitament ballhandler on the starting five) and his FG% has gone down but he has taken so many more threes. No one gives him credit though, he draws more fouls makes more free throws as lot better from last year. shooting about 10% better from the stripe and increased his visits by 52% but his makes by 70%. Don't get me wrong but when someone is getting more free throws, making more of them, hitting more threes and alot more consistently, getting a lot more blocks, and in the end of games/quarters making a lot of big shots, you'd have to give him sole credit for that. Thibs doesn't do anything when it comes to those stats. Those are stats that improve off gym hours and hard work.

People don't give Rose enough credit because he is so young. However, I think the MVP race is tainted this year. I think it is hard to give Lebron it, because the level Wade plays at. I don't know whose more valuable to the team? Same with OKC, Durant is a beast but Russell Westbrook (who should win the MIP) is also a beast. both put up such good numbers its hard to say Durant is overwhelmingly more valuable. Rose will win this year because it is a two man/ three man race and he has had the most impact on the game for his team especially with some of the injuries we have had. (Rose, Howard/ Kobe kind of). I think Rose's MVP campaign ranks fairly high with the rest of them. He played at a very high level the entire season (his month to month stats don't have much variance same with the Bulls winning percentage month to month. does this = Correlation idk? but i like it lol). I think Rose doesn't get enough credit especially when people say its all the coach because Rose willed at least 5-10 wins during the stretch we had with injured Noah and Boozer and the Bulls never lost more than 2 in a row. That says a lot about Rose because the Bulls could have easily faltered and made it real hard on Thibs. Instead never losing more than a couple games, willing some of those Ws out, really separated himself from the young kid he once was and allowed Thibs to have some night of easy sleep.

Also all the talk about the coach doing everything is just dumb. Should Kobe, Shaq, and Jordan be belittled because their coach was possibly the greatest NBA coach ever? Phil has won more rings then all of them. Does this taint their successful MVP campaigns? Realistically, it is impossible to really compare MVP campaigns because of all the variables that factor in every game. The way I look at it is, in a year when the two guys with the most hype (Lebron and Durant) are looking to take their teams to the next level, the most important "regular season" award might be stolen from a kid that slipped through the cracks and has his team on top of both of theirs. Anyone that thinks Rose doesn't deserve it is just dumb, why does EVERY player in the NBA say it after they play him? Oh my bad. not Nickalos Batum, he thinks Rose sucks.

ManRam
04-03-2011, 12:59 PM
I'll just throw some very generic stats out there...

Derrick Rose 2011: 25/8/4 23.7 PER 48.0 eFG% 12.1 WS

LeBron James 2010: 30/9/7 31.1 PER 54.5 eFG% 18.5 WS (66-16)
LeBron James 2009: 28/7/8 31.7 PER 53.0 eFG% 20.3 WS (61-21)
Kobe Bryant 2008: 28/5/6 24.2 PER 50.3 eFG% 13.8 WS (57-25)
Dirk Nowitzki 2007: 25/3/9 27.6 PER 52.9 eFG% 16.3 WS (67-15)
Kevin Garnett 2004: 24/5/14 29.4 PER 50.2 eFG% 18.3 WS (58-24)
Tim Duncan 2003: 23/4/13 26.9 PER 51.5 eFG% 16.5 WS (60-22)
Tim Duncan 2002: 26/4/13 27.0 PER 50.8 eFG% 17.8 WS (58-24)
Allen Iverson 2001: 31/5/4 24.0 PER 51.8 eFG% 11.8 WS (56-26)


So I've touched on Steve Nash, and thrown his numbers out there. I don't feel like going back any further. Just looking at the names, I doubt he's having a better year than Malone, Jordan, Robinson, Hakeem, Bird, Moses, Kareem etc. I'll look into it later.


As for Iverson. That's who I've been saying I compare Rose's season to the most. Both led defensive teams to very good years. Iverson had a lot less to work with offensively, but probably had more help defensively. It's really a toss up between those too. Watching Iverson, it was clear that at times he was literally the only option on his team. Rose has some help. Iverson was a bit more efficient, but Rose passed a bit better (chalk some of that up to the fact that Iverson didn't have a single three point threat starting with him, or anyone who scored more than 12 points a game. His leading scorers were Ratilff and Dikembe who scored most their points off of offensive put backs (Dike averaged 5 offenisve boards a game). Aaron McKie was his strongest perimeter weapon, followed by Eric Snow, but neither were good three point shooters, Snow shot under 42%. This was much more of a one man offense. Again, closest comparison of late.


As for Nash, I think he was the consensus weakest MVP winner of late, maybe until this year. The thing that I think is worth noting is his strength was offense, and his team's won because of offense. Rose's strength is offense, but the Bull's clear strong-suit is defense. Nash's offensive stats were absolutely insane, and blow Rose's out of the water. He has no defensive stats to help him out, because his team never focused on it. It's almost even more remarkable that they had so much success just dominating on one end of the court and on one end only. Nash deserved one of them, but not both. I


If his team played any defense to help out his PER and WS, that would have been one of the greatest statistical season ever. I still think that was the most efficient offensive season any PG has had in the last decade. Nash posted plus 10 offensive win shares both years, Rose will finish with about 7.8.

But again, the Suns won because of offense, and that offense was successful because of Nash. Never before The Bulls rely on their defense first and foremost. Offensively, they are led by Rose, for sure, but they have a defense to fall on. Nash didn't, and I think that's impressive.

Nash's second MVP was less impressive than Rose's current year. Not convinced about Iverson's. I remember watching him play, and even though I really didn't like him, he was just something else.

So there's that.

ManRam
04-03-2011, 01:07 PM
Also all the talk about the coach doing everything is just dumb. Should Kobe, Shaq, and Jordan be belittled because their coach was possibly the greatest NBA coach ever? Phil has won more rings then all of them. Does this taint their successful MVP campaigns? Realistically, it is impossible to really compare MVP campaigns because of all the variables that factor in every game. The way I look at it is, in a year when the two guys with the most hype (Lebron and Durant) are looking to take their teams to the next level, the most important "regular season" award might be stolen from a kid that slipped through the cracks and has his team on top of both of theirs. Anyone that thinks Rose doesn't deserve it is just dumb, why does EVERY player in the NBA say it after they play him? Oh my bad. not Nickalos Batum, he thinks Rose sucks.

I think you're not understanding how Thibs is being brought into this discussion. It's just related to how important and how amazing the defense is. No one is saying he shouldn't win because Thibs is a great coach, they're saying that Thibs may be more responsible for the turnaround, especially if you see how their defensive gains have superceded their offensive gains, and realize that he is a defensive guru.

Again, maybe look at this thread (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=607307). The Bulls defense is that amazing, and compared to recent years, it is more impressive than Rose is. The Bulls are able to win so many low scoring games because their defense just shuts teams down. No other team can do that this year. Again, Thibs, the known defensive guru, is getting credit for that.


It's not that the "coach is doing everything", it's just realizing that amazingness of the defense, and giving that some credit. It's probably the best defense since Boston's championship defense. It's not "dumb" to give him credit for turning that defense around...it's just giving credit where credit is due.

A lot of people supporting Rose do completely overlook the defensive aspect and it isn't something you can ignore. The Bulls are a defensive team. That's what they are. They rarely outscore teams, the usually beat them with their defense. I don't see why people are so hesitant to realize and credit the defense. Rose isn't the only reason the Bulls are turning this around, and spreading the wealth shouldn't be a sin...and it's certainly not "dumb" to do so.

Draco
04-03-2011, 04:58 PM
wait.. wasn't Lebron supposed to win 72+ games this year?

Draco
04-03-2011, 05:01 PM
John Hollingers little brother is at it again

you must mean, attempting to analyze the past, because nba stat heads can't predict anything for chit.

Sandman
04-03-2011, 05:03 PM
Nowadays the MVP just goes to the best player on the team that seems to be playing the most over their heads.

Not saying the Bulls are playing over their heads (they havent even been healthy yet really), but they fit the stereotype because they werent really in the conversation before the season.

sargon21
04-03-2011, 05:08 PM
I'll just throw some very generic stats out there...

Derrick Rose 2011: 25/8/4 23.7 PER 48.0 eFG% 12.1 WS

LeBron James 2010: 30/9/7 31.1 PER 54.5 eFG% 18.5 WS (66-16)
LeBron James 2009: 28/7/8 31.7 PER 53.0 eFG% 20.3 WS (61-21)
Kobe Bryant 2008: 28/5/6 24.2 PER 50.3 eFG% 13.8 WS (57-25)
Dirk Nowitzki 2007: 25/3/9 27.6 PER 52.9 eFG% 16.3 WS (67-15)
Kevin Garnett 2004: 24/5/14 29.4 PER 50.2 eFG% 18.3 WS (58-24)
Tim Duncan 2003: 23/4/13 26.9 PER 51.5 eFG% 16.5 WS (60-22)
Tim Duncan 2002: 26/4/13 27.0 PER 50.8 eFG% 17.8 WS (58-24)
Allen Iverson 2001: 31/5/4 24.0 PER 51.8 eFG% 11.8 WS (56-26)


So I've touched on Steve Nash, and thrown his numbers out there. I don't feel like going back any further. Just looking at the names, I doubt he's having a better year than Malone, Jordan, Robinson, Hakeem, Bird, Moses, Kareem etc. I'll look into it later.


As for Iverson. That's who I've been saying I compare Rose's season to the most. Both led defensive teams to very good years. Iverson had a lot less to work with offensively, but probably had more help defensively. It's really a toss up between those too. Watching Iverson, it was clear that at times he was literally the only option on his team. Rose has some help. Iverson was a bit more efficient, but Rose passed a bit better (chalk some of that up to the fact that Iverson didn't have a single three point threat starting with him, or anyone who scored more than 12 points a game. His leading scorers were Ratilff and Dikembe who scored most their points off of offensive put backs (Dike averaged 5 offenisve boards a game). Aaron McKie was his strongest perimeter weapon, followed by Eric Snow, but neither were good three point shooters, Snow shot under 42%. This was much more of a one man offense. Again, closest comparison of late.


As for Nash, I think he was the consensus weakest MVP winner of late, maybe until this year. The thing that I think is worth noting is his strength was offense, and his team's won because of offense. Rose's strength is offense, but the Bull's clear strong-suit is defense. Nash's offensive stats were absolutely insane, and blow Rose's out of the water. He has no defensive stats to help him out, because his team never focused on it. It's almost even more remarkable that they had so much success just dominating on one end of the court and on one end only. Nash deserved one of them, but not both. I


If his team played any defense to help out his PER and WS, that would have been one of the greatest statistical season ever. I still think that was the most efficient offensive season any PG has had in the last decade. Nash posted plus 10 offensive win shares both years, Rose will finish with about 7.8.

But again, the Suns won because of offense, and that offense was successful because of Nash. Never before The Bulls rely on their defense first and foremost. Offensively, they are led by Rose, for sure, but they have a defense to fall on. Nash didn't, and I think that's impressive.

Nash's second MVP was less impressive than Rose's current year. Not convinced about Iverson's. I remember watching him play, and even though I really didn't like him, he was just something else.

So there's that.

There are a ton of things wrong with what you're saying.

First of all, you act like defenses can win games alone. Offense matters just as much as defense, and who do the Bulls go to down the stretch, late in games... Rose.

Also, Nash is/was a HORRIBLE defender, so while his offensive stats will blow you away, he gives a ton of those points back on defense.

Iverson was not more efficient than Rose, simple as that, look at the most important TS%. And with Rose actually being a playmaker, he's better than Iverson.

Ratliff/Dikembe = Noah, in terms of their offensive play as you defined it.

Also, there is no one more deserving than Rose this year, and nothing you can say will change that.

Agar81
04-03-2011, 05:15 PM
behind westbrook's season this year...

KG2TB
04-03-2011, 05:16 PM
It baffles my mind how people are gonna give Thibs most of the credit for Rose's MVP run. It's ridiculous. Did anyone watch the game last night? The Raptors shot over 50% from the field and scored 106 points. We won the game. Why? Cause Rose does what he has been doing all season and scoring and facilitating when he needs to be, especially in key moments and at the end of games. Thibs did not win us the game. He wasn't our MVP. It's not like the Bulls just totally shutdown teams every night. Every elite team needs to have an elite defense. You don't go around criticizing their star player because of it and give all the credit to the coach. It's absurd. The defense keeps us in games and keeps us close...Rose closes them out. Simple as that.

Teufelshunde4
04-03-2011, 06:54 PM
What I find funny about the whole weak MVP class is LeBron and Kobe are among those in this weak MVP class....

The simple fact that Rose has had a greater impact on the Bulls this season then LeBron on the Heat... IF the Heat would have been AS GOOD as some had claimed they would be Lebron would proly repeat as MVP again.. The perception is the Heat have been big underachievers this season.

For those LeBron lovers out there who love advance stats go back and look at MJ and Magic's MVP seasons and see how those MVP races went in the late 80's and early 90's.. And tell me who think think the MVP is.....

Hiphopopotamus
04-03-2011, 07:11 PM
It baffles my mind how people are gonna give Thibs most of the credit for Rose's MVP run. It's ridiculous. Did anyone watch the game last night? The Raptors shot over 50% from the field and scored 106 points. We won the game. Why? Cause Rose does what he has been doing all season and scoring and facilitating when he needs to be, especially in key moments and at the end of games. Thibs did not win us the game. He wasn't our MVP. It's not like the Bulls just totally shutdown teams every night. Every elite team needs to have an elite defense. You don't go around criticizing their star player because of it and give all the credit to the coach. It's absurd. The defense keeps us in games and keeps us close...Rose closes them out. Simple as that.

:clap: Truth

THE MTL
04-03-2011, 10:16 PM
No offense to fans of any contending team but Rose is going to come home with the MVP, we've heard the arguments for every candidate, regardless the hype machine that is Chicago will sway this argument in his favor. Rather than repeat the same tired rhetoric against Rose I decided to acknowledge the fact that the MVP process is open to interpretation and anyone can make sense out of anything, and the most popular story will run away with the award. To be clear Im not saying the MVP is worthless, just that not every MVP is treated equally. There have been 28 different MVP winners in league history, among them Rose is the 2nd youngest ever.

2nd only to Wes Unseld who accomplished this remarkable feat a few 10 days or so younger. Now you can believe this is a testament to just how great Rose is, or how great of a season hes having, or you could take it as evidence that hes almost as unworthy as Wes was only taking advantage of being the "IT" story. I say almost because I do not believe Rose was that bad of a decision, Im just stating the similarities between the 2 candidates. Both players were a part of a team that shocked the world and did better than anyone imagined, the Bullets won 21 more games and Unseld was the biggest addition, he didnt have the stats but is well known as one of the greatest intangible players of all time.

Sadly those intangibles didnt quite seem to keep him in contention the OTHER years, you know once the story got stale. The Bullets were eliminated in R.1 depite HCA that year, though to be fair they faced a clearly superior team. Still that was the end of Unseld as an MVP contender, now you tell me if that sounds right. Unseld represents the worst MVP in History due to the fact that his candidacy relied most heavily on the story, for without it, he was never seen in that light.


Thats literally the only MVP I can place behind the current run by Rose, so is Rose the 27th Best MVP in History or is there someone Im forgetting?

Worst MVP in history is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's 5th one (1977). His team failed to make the playoffs and SUCKED! Their record was 30-52, yet he still won the MVP award!

finalverse
04-03-2011, 11:22 PM
So if Rose wins MVP then it signifies a "weak" MVP class? Like the dude earlier said...how can it be a weak MVP class with guys like Howard, Kobe, James, Durrant (I guess), Dirk...etc...etc. on it? lol come on guys...come on.

RIPSweetness34
04-04-2011, 04:03 AM
His team keeps winning. ;)

How good do you think his team would be if Rose wasn't playing? How many more games would they have lost because of Noah and Boozer being out? Fact is, D Rose is why this team is where its at. And if everyone outside of Chicago wants to ignore that its fine by me, but everyone who watches him every game sees it for themselves.

Chronz
04-04-2011, 10:57 PM
Sorry for the delay, been meaning to get back to this thread once I got home.


Some young kid looks up stats in the 70s and thinks he knows. The MVP ISN'T ABOUT STATS.
Im sorry but what stats are you referring to?


If it was called BEST PLAYER OF THE LEAGUE AWARD then your constant bashings would make sense.
Irrelevant, your not on the argument at hand, Ive already conceded that Rose will be this years MVP representative, guess what, everything you just said holds true for all the other MVP's. Not that they are all on equal footing (MVP WINNERS), you can voice your opinion on where it ranks historically. THATS what this thread is about.




The question you have to ask yourself is where would the teams with players in the running be without their top candidate.
A highly subjective question in which neither side will have "PROOF" to back up their claims. If I ask myself that question, chances are Im not going to agree with you on that very same question.



Heat, well I think Dwayne Wade is much more valuable to their team then Lebron. Besides that, if the Head didn't have Lebron do they make the playoffs? Yes. Seed, probably around 5 or 6. They'd still be better than the Knicks, 76ers, and Pacers.
Lakers, without Kobe thats still a good veteran team. Pau Gasol is so underrated its ridiculous. He is probably in the top 3 for best power forwards in the league. My guess is they'd be right around 6th seed without Bryant.

Bulls, taking their injuries into consideration without Rose would they be better than the Pacers? Very debatable. So you take Rose off that team it doesn't even make the playoffs, well maybe they are the 8th seed but I'd think Charlotte would be a better team. Thats in a weak Eastern Conference too.

IDC, if you want to debate these issues take it to the MVP thread, Ill gladly debate the issue with you.



But, if you want to rank based on greatest MVPs ever based on stats alone. Well, then by your statement it should be possible for players to win the MVP for a last place team. Ala Alex Rodriguez with the Rangers or Andre Dawson with the Cubs. You can't include playoffs at all, which you did with the Wes Unseld example because they really don't matter
Which stats were these again? I dont deal with baseball analogies so lets stick to the sport your suppose to be assessing.
As for why I included Wes, it wasnt due to his playoff performances, that was simply to know where all this success ended. Losing to a better team isnt meant to be insulting. It just shines light on just how good your team really was. When you think about it, Im essentially bringing positives to his MVP campaign that his team finished with so many wins despite a team that overachieved beyond its expected winning %

Chronz
04-04-2011, 11:02 PM
Ur right Chronz, u only comment on Rose and Bulls threads because they are the most talked about and intriguing. Only now, you are creating them so it shows that you are completely full of **** and clearly just a hater that is trying to base everything purely off stats.
Let me get this straight, me creating threads somehow suggests that me telling you "I only comment on him because of the intrigue" was a lie? And what stats are you guys harping about?


I've already figured out who you are, ur the guy who could never play the games so you were "team manager" and kept all the stats for everyone. Because of that, you have associated everything you know about sports with pure numbers and nothing else. Joe Montana wasn't the best statistical QB of all time, but because he performed at the biggest moments and has the most rings many consider him one of the best.
Nice story, anyways lets stick to basketball.


Bottom line, you can post on every single Rose thread you want with every sinlgle possible excuse you can find but the kid keeps winning, and beating legit teams to boot.
OK now can we get on topic now?

JL93
04-04-2011, 11:22 PM
Watch the bulls play a game and tell me Derrick Rose isn't the MVP.

I feel as if every basket Rose makes is absolutely incredible and he plays even better in crunch time. Hes the type of guy that when he goes 6-19 (Which every player has) in a game he finishes the game with a lead taking or game sealing bucket in crunch time. He absolutely has the winning mentality of Kobe or MJ

Chronz
04-04-2011, 11:33 PM
So if Rose wins MVP then it signifies a "weak" MVP class? Like the dude earlier said...how can it be a weak MVP class with guys like Howard, Kobe, James, Durrant (I guess), Dirk...etc...etc. on it? lol come on guys...come on.
I'm not saying the level of the league is down, just in terms of sure fire "wow" MVP seasons. If you disagree then feel free to assess the issue by naming clearly inferior races we've had.

Chronz
04-04-2011, 11:39 PM
Worst MVP in history is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's 5th one (1977). His team failed to make the playoffs and SUCKED! Their record was 30-52, yet he still won the MVP award!

Youve got your logic twisted, that was Kareems 5th MVP but his team was in first place, his OLD team (The Bucks) went 30-52, but Kareems Lakers went 53-29.

THE GIPPER
04-04-2011, 11:49 PM
It baffles my mind how people are gonna give Thibs most of the credit for Rose's MVP run. It's ridiculous. Did anyone watch the game last night? The Raptors shot over 50% from the field and scored 106 points. We won the game. Why? Cause Rose does what he has been doing all season and scoring and facilitating when he needs to be, especially in key moments and at the end of games. Thibs did not win us the game. He wasn't our MVP. It's not like the Bulls just totally shutdown teams every night. Every elite team needs to have an elite defense. You don't go around criticizing their star player because of it and give all the credit to the coach. It's absurd. The defense keeps us in games and keeps us close...Rose closes them out. Simple as that.

I think you guys won that game cuz the raptors suck.

chitownbulls
04-04-2011, 11:51 PM
It baffles my mind how people are gonna give Thibs most of the credit for Rose's MVP run. It's ridiculous. Did anyone watch the game last night? The Raptors shot over 50% from the field and scored 106 points. We won the game. Why? Cause Rose does what he has been doing all season and scoring and facilitating when he needs to be, especially in key moments and at the end of games. Thibs did not win us the game. He wasn't our MVP. It's not like the Bulls just totally shutdown teams every night. Every elite team needs to have an elite defense. You don't go around criticizing their star player because of it and give all the credit to the coach. It's absurd. The defense keeps us in games and keeps us close...Rose closes them out. Simple as that.

this

Sadds The Gr8
04-04-2011, 11:55 PM
It baffles my mind how people are gonna give Thibs most of the credit for Rose's MVP run. It's ridiculous. Did anyone watch the game last night? The Raptors shot over 50% from the field and scored 106 points. We won the game. Why? Cause Rose does what he has been doing all season and scoring and facilitating when he needs to be, especially in key moments and at the end of games. Thibs did not win us the game. He wasn't our MVP. It's not like the Bulls just totally shutdown teams every night. Every elite team needs to have an elite defense. You don't go around criticizing their star player because of it and give all the credit to the coach. It's absurd. The defense keeps us in games and keeps us close...Rose closes them out. Simple as that.

he gets criticized because he isn't a main part of what makes the team very good, which is the defense.

KG2TB
04-04-2011, 11:56 PM
I think you guys won that game cuz the raptors suck.

Right. Makes sense. Rose had nothing to do with it. Our great, unbelievable defense that everyone keeps talking about and discrediting Rose's accomplishments allows them to shoot 50% from the field and score 106 points. Rose had to dominate the game in order to compensate and made unbelievable basket, after unbelievable basket. Just ask any Raptors fan. But no...you're now throwing that all out the window and we won because the Raptors suck. This time...it wasn't because of Thibs, wasn't because of Rose, it was simply because the Raptors suck but managed to get anything they wanted to offensively. Great...just great. You really are brilliant.

THE GIPPER
04-05-2011, 12:11 AM
Right. Makes sense. Rose had nothing to do with it. Our great, unbelievable defense that everyone keeps talking about and discrediting Rose's accomplishments allows them to shoot 50% from the field and score 106 points. Rose had to dominate the game in order to compensate and made unbelievable basket, after unbelievable basket. Just ask any Raptors fan. But no...you're now throwing that all out the window and we won because the Raptors suck. This time...it wasn't because of Thibs, wasn't because of Rose, it was simply because the Raptors suck but managed to get anything they wanted to offensively. Great...just great. You really are brilliant.

Wow im sorry for simply suggesting another possibility. My bad I wont do it again. I didnt know it would cause you so much grief.

heatking
04-05-2011, 12:12 AM
Weakest mvp in history in my humble opinion.

ramsizzle
04-05-2011, 12:21 AM
Weakest mvp in history in my humble opinion.

Lebron's QuitVP was worse. Only if the Bulls make it further in the postseason though

heatking
04-05-2011, 12:23 AM
Lmao quitvp? Lbj = greatest physical specimen in nba history.

ramsizzle
04-05-2011, 12:28 AM
^ wilt > lebron physically. Wth is physically. Corey maggette is a physical specimen. Does that mean he is amazing? Oh and Charlie ward > lebron. And it's not close

KG2TB
04-05-2011, 12:31 AM
Wow im sorry for simply suggesting another possibility. My bad I wont do it again. I didnt know it would cause you so much grief.

By all means, suggest possibilities and voice opinions...but at least back them up with some kind of intelligence. Did you even watch the game? I stated while people give credit to Thibs and the defense, in this instance, our defense sucked it up and was dominated by the Raptors and we won the game because Rose took over. It goes to show you how silly the argument is about Thibs being the MVP is because it happens a lot where our defense isn't there and Rose needs to save the day. Even when our defense is sound, Rose is still needed to close the games out. So please, suggest possibilities but when I gave such examples and you respond with 'Well, maybe they won because the Raptors suck' it makes you look extremely ignorant.

Tony_Starks
04-05-2011, 12:34 AM
Steve Nash's stealing of Kobes MVP was waaaaaaaay worse, probably the biggest snub I can think of. Karl Malone getting it over MJ was bad, but understandable. David Robinson getting it over Hakeem that year was a complete joke and Hakeem proved it by schooling him in the playoffs and getting the real hardwhare.


Those were all a bigger deal than Rose IMO.......

JiffyMix88
04-05-2011, 01:11 AM
Steve Nash's stealing of Kobes MVP was waaaaaaaay worse, probably the biggest snub I can think of. Karl Malone getting it over MJ was bad, but understandable. David Robinson getting it over Hakeem that year was a complete joke and Hakeem proved it by schooling him in the playoffs and getting the real hardwhare.


Those were all a bigger deal than Rose IMO.......

this is was were stats dont say everything the suns team was far worse than the year before and they were without amare and nash put up those numbers with worse players and had them as one of the top teams in the league compared to kobes 8th seed

Chronz
04-05-2011, 12:20 PM
Steve Nash's stealing of Kobes MVP was waaaaaaaay worse, probably the biggest snub I can think of. Karl Malone getting it over MJ was bad, but understandable. David Robinson getting it over Hakeem that year was a complete joke and Hakeem proved it by schooling him in the playoffs and getting the real hardwhare.


Those were all a bigger deal than Rose IMO.......

Maybe I didnt stress the thread topic enough, its not about who snubbed others worse but about the MVP winners, measuring their greatness by their own performance and stacking them up.

Like when Karl Malone snubbed MJ, Karl Malone would still rank as having a better MVP season than Rose.

Double_R
04-05-2011, 12:58 PM
Well since he really doesn't measure up to guys like Wade, Lebron, Dwight Howard, etc. I would say that it is pretty lame to automatically give the MVP to a guy who really wasn't the MVP.

DaBUU
04-05-2011, 01:14 PM
By all means, suggest possibilities and voice opinions...but at least back them up with some kind of intelligence. Did you even watch the game? I stated while people give credit to Thibs and the defense, in this instance, our defense sucked it up and was dominated by the Raptors and we won the game because Rose took over. It goes to show you how silly the argument is about Thibs being the MVP is because it happens a lot where our defense isn't there and Rose needs to save the day. Even when our defense is sound, Rose is still needed to close the games out. So please, suggest possibilities but when I gave such examples and you respond with 'Well, maybe they won because the Raptors suck' it makes you look extremely ignorant.

yeah thats the point,

when our defense plays great, Rose plays great (and we win)
when our defense plays bad, Rose still plays great (and we win)
when we play a good or elite team, Rose plays great (and we win)
when we play crap teams, Rose once again plays great (and we win)
when our team is healthy, Rose plays great (and we usually win)
when our team is injured and missing key peices, Rose plays great (and we still win)

Cool007
04-05-2011, 01:35 PM
yeah thats the point,

when our defense plays great, Rose plays great (and we win)
when our defense plays bad, Rose still plays great (and we win)
when we play a good or elite team, Rose plays great (and we win)
when we play crap teams, Rose once again plays great (and we win)
when our team is healthy, Rose plays great (and we usually win)
when our team is injured and missing key peices, Rose plays great (and we still win)

Common denominator (sp?) here is what people like to ignore.

Rose is going to be MVP coz he has great stats, he is the leader of the 60-win (on pace) team, #1 team in the East and 2nd best overall. No matter who missed the games (Noah, Boozer), no matter who played next to him (Bogans, Kurt Thomas), no matter who they played against, no matter how many back to backs (Bulls had league leading back to backs), no matter if Bulls had a Rookie coach, and 8 new players, or whatever.

Rose does everything for his team to win. Doesn't care about stats (thus him going for every half/full court heave at end of qtrs, taking bail out shots, etc) and just WIN.

I don't care what games you are watching, or what anyone else say, Rose is the MVP this year and he TOTALLY deserves it.

Tony_Starks
04-05-2011, 02:10 PM
Maybe I didnt stress the thread topic enough, its not about who snubbed others worse but about the MVP winners, measuring their greatness by their own performance and stacking them up.

Like when Karl Malone snubbed MJ, Karl Malone would still rank as having a better MVP season than Rose.


Ok I got you. Well if we're just talking strictly individual performance I still rank Nash a weaker MVP IMO. Phoenix had the high octane offense and was a fantastic story but it was widely regarded around the league at the time that his back to back MVP's were a huge joke. Basically I'd take Rose this year over Nash when he won it.

But then again they basically stuck to the media recipe for mvp: best player on the team with the best record.... which I totally don't agree with btw.

JordansBulls
04-05-2011, 02:54 PM
Youve got your logic twisted, that was Kareems 5th MVP but his team was in first place, his OLD team (The Bucks) went 30-52, but Kareems Lakers went 53-29.

1976 he won mvp when the Lakers didn't make the playoffs and his former team did. In fact in Kareem's last year the Bucks didn't make the playoffs and he gets traded and the Bucks make it the following year.

Chronz
04-05-2011, 03:54 PM
1976 he won mvp when the Lakers didn't make the playoffs and his former team did. In fact in Kareem's last year the Bucks didn't make the playoffs and he gets traded and the Bucks make it the following year.

So what, the Bucks won the same amount of games as the year prior but their efficiency differentials dropped, the only reason they made the playoffs was because the East was weaker.

The Lakers despite not making the playoffs were a better team, I understand you would expect them to be much better based on the fact that they have Kareem, but again this is just another lesson on how irrelevant our expectations of any 1 player are. No 1 player decides his teams fate, at least not to the level your trying to take it.

What will you say when someday Rose is part of a bad team and cant win even though hes never played better?

Remember when it happened to Iverson? He had his finest season the year the Sixers missed the playoffs.

Iggz53
04-05-2011, 07:12 PM
Yeah, Wes Unseld and Derrick Rose must both really suck. I mean any player that leads a previously mediocre team to contention HAVE to be undeserving, they just have to.

Chronz
04-05-2011, 09:40 PM
Yeah, Wes Unseld and Derrick Rose must both really suck. I mean any player that leads a previously mediocre team to contention HAVE to be undeserving, they just have to.

Suck? Nobody ever said anything about sucking, you may not know this but whenever you rank a group of players, no matter how great or how select that company may be, there will inevitably be players that rank lower than others.

hard_candy
04-05-2011, 10:47 PM
These MVP picks have been highly political popularity contests for several decades now. It's difficult to rationalize in retrospect Karl Malone or Chuck Barkely winning MVP's over Jordan.

Likewise, the sad status of black sheep LeBron James, the mailing it in regular season play of Kobe, and the slightly down year that Durant is having, leaves few options for MVP candidates. Rose is the MVP by default. People will be wondering how Rose won it in an era of James and Bryant in the future.

Iggz53
04-05-2011, 10:53 PM
Suck? Nobody ever said anything about sucking, you may not know this but whenever you rank a group of players, no matter how great or how select that company may be, there will inevitably be players that rank lower than others.

That's not what this thread is about. Its about you searching for why Rose shouldn't be MVP again, by blatantly saying he would be the 2nd worst to ever win it. Except you don't know what the word "worst" means because statistically, he is better than several others, such as Cousy, Iverson, Unseld, and in terms of leading his team to victories, he has also been better than plenty. And if you think players with better statistics are automatically better, I suppose switching Z-Bo with KG would make the Celtics a better team during the playoffs? Again, I'm not sure what you're looking at in terms of ranking all of the MVP's. In terms of value during the given time period, yes Rose would be on the bottom tier. However, forgive me for being suspicious of your intentions with this thread given your agenda.

Chronz
04-06-2011, 01:47 PM
That's not what this thread is about.
Check the thread title, its labeled, Rose's MVP Campaign: Where it ranks in History.

I then go on to ask for people to rank it after giving my opinion


Its about you searching for why Rose shouldn't be MVP again, by blatantly saying he would be the 2nd worst to ever win it.

Like Ive reiterated, this isnt about who snubbed who worst, its about where the actual campaign ranks on its own merit. Saying hes the 2nd least impressive MVP in history is my opinion. If yours differs then provide your reasoning.


Except you don't know what the word "worst" means because statistically, he is better than several others, such as Cousy, Iverson, Unseld, and in terms of leading his team to victories, he has also been better than plenty.And if you think players with better statistics are automatically better, I suppose switching Z-Bo with KG would make the Celtics a better team during the playoffs?
Read the original post, I end the post as a challenge, for you guys to inform me of what you think Im missing out. I do not pretend to know where they rank, but I do give my opinion and ask for yours. Welcome to the art of debate, you must be new to the idea. Whatever you think worse means or what the criteria should be is up to you to decide.


Again, I'm not sure what you're looking at in terms of ranking all of the MVP's. In terms of value during the given time period, yes Rose would be on the bottom tier. However, forgive me for being suspicious of your intentions with this thread given your agenda.
Its not hard to understand, stop searching for an agenda and debate the matter.

Pierzynski4Prez
04-06-2011, 02:34 PM
Rose hasn't even won the MVP award yet though, and its not a given. Yes, you had intentions to discuss where it would rank in history. But the fact that you made this weeks in advance of the voting shows that you just want another place to show that you feel Rose doesn't deserve to be MVP, which is what the MVP thread is for. It's quite apparent and tons of people have called you out for it on here. So go ahead and break my post down into 5,000 different sections so you can once again give the same bull**** excuse you gave to everybody else.

Hawkeye15
04-06-2011, 02:40 PM
Bulls fans need to calm down regarding the Rose for MVP subject. Every MVP ever named was debated upon. This year displays the weakest race in modern history, and its clear Rose isn't a top 5 NBA player steaming towards his 1st MVP trophy.

You will have to learn how to rationally debate the subject, because attempting to call out rational posters with rational debates as haters, will get you nowhere.

The OP stated off the bat that he understands why Rose will win it, and is fine with it. He is asking where this MVP season ranks among others. There is no agenda.

sep11ie
04-06-2011, 02:53 PM
34thish

Pierzynski4Prez
04-06-2011, 02:58 PM
But he hasn't won it. Nor is he a given to win it quite yet. If a Bulls fan were to create a thread last week about how Howard or Kobe would be the worst MVP in history, it would be considered a hate thread and probably closed, due to the fact that neither of them have yet to even win the award.

Tarheels23
04-06-2011, 03:00 PM
I agree... the Bulls fans are taking this way too personally.

This year's MVP is 7th in the league in PPG. However, he averages the most shots per game of the top 15 players in scoring.... while his fg% is the 3rd lowest.

He is 10th in the league in assists. One would argue that a PG winning an MVP SHOULD be near the top in assists.

Steals per game... Not even in the top 40. Shouldnt an MVP do it on both ends?

How about double doubles? In the top 25 of double doubles, there are 7 PGs. Rose is not one of them.

Now he is clearly going to win the award because he is the best player on a team with the best record in the east (and maybe the NBA by season's end) but that doesnt automatically jolt him into the class of other MVPs such as Jordan, Shaq, Iverson, Bryant, Duncan, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Magic, Bird, Moses, Kareem etc... That is the point the thread starter is trying to make.

Hawkeye15
04-06-2011, 03:00 PM
But he hasn't won it. Nor is he a given to win it quite yet. If a Bulls fan were to create a thread last week about how Howard or Kobe would be the worst MVP in history, it would be considered a hate thread and probably closed, due to the fact that neither of them have yet to even win the award.

it depends how you start a thread dude. Chronz, in this case, had a very well thought out opening post that should indeed spark positive debate.

Now, if he would have opened with:

"Ok, we all know Rose doesn't deserve to win the MVP, but probably will. Where do you rank this voting failure in history?"

That will be closed.

Cool007
04-06-2011, 03:01 PM
Yeah, I think this thread should be closed until Rose actually wins it.

It's kind of premature to have it going IMO.

camador22
04-06-2011, 03:04 PM
I think he wins the MVP and he deserves it. Is it a special historic moment? NO, not even close becase he's not even a top 5 player in the league. He did a great job leading a very well balanced team and took over when injuries occurred and that's why he wins it.

wa77ss
04-06-2011, 03:33 PM
Dwight Howard is MVP. Rose makes the bulls good, but how much better would they be with Howard?


.....

Dwight puts up numbers that no one in the league can compare. He would be leading blocks and rebounds again, but you can't catch people that had great games and got hurt.....so they aren't doing it night in and night out like Howard is.

Rose averages 2more points per game on 7 more shots............


Howard is the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER. you don't trade Howard for Rose, LeBron, Durant, or Kobe. That says something about his VALUE right there....... He IS THE ORLANDO MAGIC. Rose is great, but he is not the most valuable player. He got how many votes for MVP last year? WHen they were .500?

Stop following the media hype, the kid isn't winning many games for his team. His teams defense is.....

Howard has more steals than Rose.......and is DPOY

KG2TB
04-06-2011, 04:03 PM
To say Rose isn't winning many games for the Bulls just shows you shouldn't have even posted. To put it simply, you're just ignorant. You do not know what you're talking about. I can guarantee you Rose has had more game winners, dominant 4th quarters, and clutch moments than Howard. The whole 'team defense is winning games and not Rose' argument is the weakest, most absurd, ridiculous thing ever.

I'm also not so sure I wouldn't trade Howard for LeBron. I doubt Howard would have had those Cavs teams in first place..and I feel pretty good about the fact that if you put LeBron on the Magic and say...Gortat at center, they would have a better record than these current Howard-led Magic. That's neither here nor there though...

valade16
04-06-2011, 05:24 PM
Bulls fans need to calm down regarding the Rose for MVP subject. Every MVP ever named was debated upon. This year displays the weakest race in modern history, and its clear Rose isn't a top 5 NBA player steaming towards his 1st MVP trophy.

You will have to learn how to rationally debate the subject, because attempting to call out rational posters with rational debates as haters, will get you nowhere.

The OP stated off the bat that he understands why Rose will win it, and is fine with it. He is asking where this MVP season ranks among others. There is no agenda.

Hawkeye, your smarter than this... Chronz has shown and stated on countless threads he is less than "fine" with it (he is able to back up his claim with relevant stats/points however).

Your really suggesting his 1,000th thread/response to why Rose is either not deserving of the MVP/will have the supposed 2nd weakest MVP ever isn't indicative of an agenda?

Tsk tsk

chicago lulz
04-06-2011, 05:25 PM
it depends how you start a thread dude. Chronz, in this case, had a very well thought out opening post that should indeed spark positive debate.

Now, if he would have opened with:

"Ok, we all know Rose doesn't deserve to win the MVP, but probably will. Where do you rank this voting failure in history?"

That will be closed.

>PSD NBA Forum
>Positive Debate
Pick one.

I feel this thread is premature as the season isn't over, and no one has been named MVP. Yes Derrick Rose is being 'hyped', 'will most likely win', what have you, but the fact remains that the MVP trophy doesn't sit in his trophy case.

At this point there is no MVP for this season. Which is why I feel this thread is premature and pointless for the time being.

Secondly, you throw out a nice argument and all, but you take into fact:

Sadly those intangibles didnt quite seem to keep him in contention the OTHER years, you know once the story got stale. The Bullets were eliminated in R.1 depite HCA that year, though to be fair they faced a clearly superior team. Still that was the end of Unseld as an MVP contender, now you tell me if that sounds right. Unseld represents the worst MVP in History due to the fact that his candidacy relied most heavily on the story, for without it, he was never seen in that light.
"Other years" as in something Rose does not possess, because
1. The season isn't over
2. He's only in his third year
Thus, isn't it unfair to compare Rose with anyone else based on this point? The reason being Rose's career is nowhere near done, thus the "Other years" can't be considered. We would essentially have to wait next year, to see if there was a drop off, etc.

"Playoff Push": Wes lost in the first round. Rose hasn't even played his first round of his "MVP Season".

I understand those are reason why Wes was the worst MVP in your opinion, but with that being said, one would have to use those reasons as measurement to Rose's "MVP run" in order to debate (obviously amongst others), and thus why I believe it's unfair to make any comparisons at this point.

You're throwing out an argument/debate that cannot be debated yet. Not until Rose actually is holding that MVP Trophy and we wait to see how his following years do, as well as his team in the playoffs.
(A reason why I feel people are accusing you of having some agenda for starting this thread/Please don't confuse with ME thinking you have some agenda as you don't, and I know PSD posters are quick to take things as insults)

Hawkeye15
04-06-2011, 05:28 PM
Hawkeye, your smarter than this... Chronz has shown and stated on countless threads he is less than "fine" with it (he is able to back up his claim with relevant stats/points however).

Your really suggesting his 1,000th thread/response to why Rose is either not deserving of the MVP/will have the supposed 2nd weakest MVP ever isn't indicative of an agenda?

Tsk tsk


Rather than repeat the same tired rhetoric against Rose I decided to acknowledge the fact that the MVP process is open to interpretation and anyone can make sense out of anything, and the most popular story will run away with the award. To be clear Im not saying the MVP is worthless, just that not every MVP is treated equally. There have been 28 different MVP winners in league history, among them Rose is the 2nd youngest ever.

From the OP. He has acknowledged it, and is asking posters to evaluate them next to past MVP's. He gave a well thought out argument on HIS opinion, and invited others to weigh in.

It is well known I am not in favor of Rose winning it either. But I am more than happy to read well thought out posts stating otherwise.

Hawkeye15
04-06-2011, 05:30 PM
the only reason this thread should be questioned is because Rose doesn't officially have the MVP trophy, that is the only thing I agree with

chicago lulz
04-06-2011, 05:32 PM
Should be questioned because the season isn't over, playoffs haven't started, and we haven't seen what Rose does next season...

SteveNash
04-06-2011, 05:47 PM
Just assume Rose will never win a championship as his teams best player.

Where would you rank him then?

jim51990
04-06-2011, 05:50 PM
rose has had a great season but lebron should be the mvp again

chicago lulz
04-06-2011, 05:54 PM
Just assume Rose will never win a championship as his teams best player.

Where would you rank him then?

Am I also assuming a drop off in production next year as well?
OP wants a debate, but how does one debate on assumptions alone?

sammid21
04-06-2011, 06:07 PM
there have been more people criticizing this years MVP than anyother, other years if the more deserving doesnt win it, the one that actually does gets a pass because he was deserving of it too. people *****ed about Nash winning 2 but it seems like Roses MVP campaign is more criticized than Nashes. i dont get it,

Sure howard deserves it too but Rose took his team to first place, Howards team is under acheiving IMO because people had the magic with over 50+ wins and competing for the top 3 record. And MVP is for the regular season not the playoffs, so any discussion on if he doesnt win the title this year is irrelevant.

TO to the CHI
04-06-2011, 06:11 PM
it depends how you start a thread dude. Chronz, in this case, had a very well thought out opening post that should indeed spark positive debate.

Now, if he would have opened with:

"Ok, we all know Rose doesn't deserve to win the MVP, but probably will. Where do you rank this voting failure in history?"

That will be closed.

I understand you like the premise of the thread and think Chronz is a great poster (incidentally on that I agree and think he is probably the best basketball mind on PSD, though I disagree with him on several things), but you're really overselling the OP in this particular thread.

The OP really was not all that well thought out. There have been approximately 30 MVPs, yet Chronz simply included his conclusion that Rose was second worst and then made comparisons to the worst. All of those comparisons were flawed because they looked at Unseld's MVP in the context of his career and the playoffs that year, which we cannot do at this time with Rose. There was also no analysis of many of the other questionable MVPs historically including some for which similar arguments could be made (Nash, Iverson, Dirk).

To Chronz's credit, he has come back to discuss those points and he included the simple request that others state their opinions, but you are reaching a little bit in your endorsement of the thread Hawkeye. I suspect that if someone created a thread about how Love was the second worst MIP ever, included an analysis of only the worst MIP ever without discussing others, noted the TWolves' pathetic record and general hopelessness as a franchise and then said "discuss" that you would not be so upbeat about the thread. But who knows, I could be mistaken on that.

Lil Rhody
04-06-2011, 06:23 PM
Yes he does deserve it but come on guys stop ghost riding his dick

SteveNash
04-06-2011, 06:47 PM
Am I also assuming a drop off in production next year as well?
OP wants a debate, but how does one debate on assumptions alone?

There isn't much to assume. Rose's averages aren't going to change much these last few games. Rose averaging 50/20/10 with 10 titles the rest of his career won't change the fact that he's not a great player and undeserving of the award this year.

Bullsfan22
04-06-2011, 07:05 PM
There isn't much to assume. Rose's averages aren't going to change much these last few games. Rose averaging 50/20/10 with 10 titles the rest of his career won't change the fact that he's not a great player and undeserving of the award this year.

lol Butt sore from that clutch shot he made in the fourth quarter to send steve nash back to his wife? oh wait

RZZZA
04-06-2011, 11:23 PM
To say Rose isn't winning many games for the Bulls just shows you shouldn't have even posted. To put it simply, you're just ignorant. You do not know what you're talking about. I can guarantee you Rose has had more game winners, dominant 4th quarters, and clutch moments than Howard. The whole 'team defense is winning games and not Rose' argument is the weakest, most absurd, ridiculous thing ever.

:clap:

People will say anything to get under Bulls fans' skin. This "Bulls win because of their defense and not because of Rose" argument is just the next in a long line of such arguments.

Personally, I don't even know why you would listen to fans of other teams when they say such things. Who's likely to know more about the matter, a Bulls fan who has watched every single game this season or someone else?

You have to take the word of the fan of the team as being more credible in such situations, bottom line, they know more about their team...

jtsunami
04-07-2011, 09:40 AM
RZZZA's back!

Anyway, if we can make assumptive threads, then I'm going to assume that the Bulls will win the NBA Championship before it happens. So everyone,

Where do the 2011 NBA Champion Chicago Bulls rank in history? The thread will be up shortly...

mikealike305
04-07-2011, 09:45 AM
^any stats to go with that thread like the OP did?

jtsunami
04-07-2011, 09:50 AM
^any stats to go with that thread like the OP did?

John Hollinger has the Bulls as the overwhelming favorite to go to the finals and win the championship using his fail-proof formulas and projections.

blams
04-07-2011, 10:02 AM
Not going to pitch a shutout every night. Offense is still needed to outscore the other team.

It isn't 12:51 anymore

JonnyBrav000
04-07-2011, 10:05 AM
How much water do you think that holds seeing that the Bulls win primarily from their 1st ranked interior defense?


Good point, but someone has to score, plus Noah and Boozer both missed alot of time this season and there is no debate that Rose is the MVP this season and no doubt a top 10 player in the NBA right now.

Had Rose been injured this season, I bet the Bulls would not be a number 1 seed right now. Also, there is no way Rose can be considered the 2nd worse MVP in league history, that is dumb. You have to analyze every season and watch alot of damn tape to even have a sense about this. Also, there were a few seasons Michael Jordan was screwed with not winning the MVP, simply because the voters were bored with naming him MVP evey year.

Chronz
04-07-2011, 10:46 AM
Am I also assuming a drop off in production next year as well?
OP wants a debate, but how does one debate on assumptions alone?

You dont have to assume anything, the regular season is nearly finished, base your credentials off that alone. I was just rehashing Unselds season, the reason I cited the rest of his career was to show that a player who won the award based on the value of his intangible worth wasnt able to stay in the running throughout his career despite these qualities staying strong.

In this regard hes different than just about every other MVP winner, to me this shows how flukish of a winner he was, to go with his middling statistics I find him as the low point for MVP's. If you disagree then thats fine as well. Either way you can debate the matter

JordansBulls
04-07-2011, 10:54 AM
You dont have to assume anything, the regular season is nearly finished, base your credentials off that alone. I was just rehashing Unselds season, the reason I cited the rest of his career was to show that a player who won the award based on the value of his intangible worth wasnt able to stay in the running throughout his career despite these qualities staying strong.

In this regard hes different than just about every other MVP winner, to me this shows how flukish of a winner he was, to go with his middling statistics I find him as the low point for MVP's. If you disagree then thats fine as well. Either way you can debate the matter

I agree. But let me ask you, where do you rank Willis Reed's MVP season and also Steve Nash's? Or even Bill Walton's in 1978 when he missed 24 games?

Chronz
04-07-2011, 10:58 AM
:clap:

People will say anything to get under Bulls fans' skin. This "Bulls win because of their defense and not because of Rose" argument is just the next in a long line of such arguments.

Personally, I don't even know why you would listen to fans of other teams when they say such things. Who's likely to know more about the matter, a Bulls fan who has watched every single game this season or someone else?

You have to take the word of the fan of the team as being more credible in such situations, bottom line, they know more about their team...

And why would I have to do to these things? I see no correlation, if anything, on average Im less willing to trust fans of their team about their own team. Now there are always standout fans from every team, IMO they come from the teams playing in the shadow of a greater team (Nets fans have solid IQ), or teams that arent contending. Simply put the better your team, the greater the hype and as a result the more fanboys.

But really no fan base is free from bias, I cant tell you how long it took for me to convince my brethren that Al Thornton was crap, or that Kevin Love was in fact more worthy of making the rookie team than EG.

As a neutral observer, I dont care how many Bulls games you watch, what I want to know is how many games OUTSIDE of Chicago youve watched. If you told me you watch more games of other teams than you watch the Bulls, that would matter infinitely more to me. But thats just me

Still you guys are getting off track, this isnt about Roses candidacy, but his actual performance vs other MVP's

RZZZA
04-07-2011, 11:02 AM
And why would I have to do to these things? I see no correlation, if anything, on average Im less willing to trust fans of their own team about their own team. Now there are always standout fans from every team, IMO they come from the teams playing in the shadow of a greater team (Nets fans have solid IQ), or teams that arent contending. Simply put the better your team, the greater the hype and as a result the more fanboys.


But really no fan base is free from bias, I cant tell you how long it took for me to convince my brethren that Al Thornton was crap, or that Kevin Love was in fact more worthy of making the rookie team than EG.


As a neutral observer, I dont care how many Bulls games you watch, what I want to know is how many games OUTSIDE of Chicago youve watched. If you told me you watch more games of other teams than you watch the Bulls, that would matter infinitely more to me. But thats just me

Oh, I know all about you Chronz, you don't trust anybody's word, you only trust the stats. Rose has become your little obsession, I think 4,000 of your 14000 posts has been about trying to discredit Roses MVP candidacy.

You say it's a weak MVP class, I agree with you. Whats really weak is how these so-called top 5 players in the league...the Dwights, the Lebrons, the Wades, the Kobes...can't convince hardly anyone of their MVP legitimacy this year. Weak indeed.

Chronz
04-07-2011, 12:12 PM
Oh, I know all about you Chronz, you don't trust anybody's word, you only trust the stats. Rose has become your little obsession, I think 4,000 of your 14000 posts has been about trying to discredit Roses MVP candidacy.

You say it's a weak MVP class, I agree with you. Whats really weak is how these so-called top 5 players in the league...the Dwights, the Lebrons, the Wades, the Kobes...can't convince hardly anyone of their MVP legitimacy this year. Weak indeed.
Lets see your trying to refute the argument of a weak MVP race by stating the top players in the league? LMFAO its almost as if you think the MVP is a scientific formula that measures its eligibility on performance alone.

I got news for you, the MVP isnt given to the best players, its given to those who carry the interesting narrative as much as anything. I never said the strength of the league was low, but the MVP race is weak because there is a severe shortage in storytelling.

Compare it to the year when we had Kobe, Bron, KG, CP3 all with an interesting narrative to back your case (Kobe was finally winning, KG transformed the C's, CP3 was the new kid on the block, and Bron along with stats had come off a run to the Finals, had earned respect) Now THAT is a stacked MVP race, what kind of story telling do we have this year?

Bron has been casted the villain, Kobe is yesterdays news, CP3 doesnt have the team, Dwight (despite VAST improvements offensively) has seen his teammates continue to decline, and the next interesting case is who, Dirk/Durant/Westbrook?

You dont have to agree with us that its a rather uninspiring race, I can think of only the Peja-Jermaine run as being weaker but lets debate the matter elsewhere (Like the MVP thread)

We should get back to the topic

Southsideheat
04-07-2011, 01:34 PM
Can someone answer me this question. Why does DRose have 500 more shot attempts than Howard? If his supporting cast is so bad, why isn't he taking more shots?

tbone2171
04-07-2011, 01:48 PM
I heard D. Rose likes little boys

Tarheels23
04-07-2011, 01:49 PM
Can someone answer me this question. Why does DRose have 500 more shot attempts than Howard? If his supporting cast is so bad, why isn't he taking more shots?

Ask Stan Van....

And FYI, the only player in the NBA who averages more shot attempts per game than Rose is Monta Ellis (0.3 more shots per game)

Chronz
04-07-2011, 01:51 PM
Can someone answer me this question. Why does DRose have 500 more shot attempts than Howard? If his supporting cast is so bad, why isn't he taking more shots?
Because the level of support around you isnt measured by fg/a, or offensive production in general. Its based on their impact on both ends. Dwight carries his team defensively and is a largely contributing force to their offense, not quite as strong as Rose perhaps but his defensive contributions to his team more than offset that difference.

Southsideheat
04-07-2011, 02:00 PM
Ask Stan Van....

And FYI, the only player in the NBA who averages more shot attempts per game than Rose is Monta Ellis (0.3 more shots per game)

The answer is that they don't depend on him. If Howard put up another 500 shots this year, he would probably have a similar FG% as Rose, eventhough his attempts would still be from the paint.

The issue with Rose FG% is that the offense relies on Rose to an absurd degree. Just look at his usage rate. Simply, Rose taking shots is better for the team because it puts defenses on their heals at all times effectively getting other teamates open shots.

Rose is not all of a sudden a ball hog. He wasn't that in High School, or at Memphis. It simply is a matter of what's best for the team. I think we all know that Thibideau is not an idiot and if it was an issue it would have been taken care of by now.

Southsideheat
04-07-2011, 02:01 PM
Because the level of support around you isnt measured by fg/a, or offensive production in general. Its based on their impact on both ends. Dwight carries his team defensively and is a largely contributing force to their offense, not quite as strong as Rose perhaps but his defensive contributions to his team more than offset that difference.

I agree with that, but i can say the samething about Rose and Chicago's sub par offense.

ramsizzle
04-07-2011, 02:15 PM
I agree with that, but i can say the samething about Rose and Chicago's sub par offense.

Sub-par? If you choose to discredit a team do it correctly..they are at any given point 10-12 on offense right now. that's with two starters missing 20%+ of the season. now if those starters didn't miss those games would that offense been higher? most likely. so now that "sub-par" offense turns upper echelon.

Tarheels23
04-07-2011, 02:24 PM
The answer is that they don't depend on him. If Howard put up another 500 shots this year, he would probably have a similar FG% as Rose, eventhough his attempts would still be from the paint.

The issue with Rose FG% is that the offense relies on Rose to an absurd degree. Just look at his usage rate. Simply, Rose taking shots is better for the team because it puts defenses on their heals at all times effectively getting other teamates open shots.

Rose is not all of a sudden a ball hog. He wasn't that in High School, or at Memphis. It simply is a matter of what's best for the team. I think we all know that Thibideau is not an idiot and if it was an issue it would have been taken care of by now.

Howards fg% would drop a little if he took 500 more fga. But to say that it would drop from 60% (Howard's current) to 44% (Rose's current) is obsurd. Also, Howards free throw attempts would increase with increased shot attempts. He already crushes Rose in free throw attempts per game.

I agree, Rose is by far the best offensive option on his team so he needs to shoot the most. But cmon, he averages the 2nd most attempts per game BARELY trailing King Chucker Monta himself.

EDIT - - - I cant speak for anyone else, but I do NOT think Rose is a ball hog. I just think the scoring stats are a little misleading.

Southsideheat
04-07-2011, 02:36 PM
Howards fg% would drop a little if he took 500 more fga. But to say that it would drop from 60% (Howard's current) to 44% (Rose's current) is obsurd.

So again i ask, why hasn't he put up more shots? And Stan Van Gundy isn't the answer.



Also, Howards free throw attempts would increase with increased shot attempts. He already crushes Rose in free throw attempts per game.

I don't think increased FT attempts for Howard is a good thing.


EDIT - - - I cant speak for anyone else, but I do NOT think Rose is a ball hog. I just think the scoring stats are a little misleading.

They maybe, but people ignore that there is a reason behind it, something that can't get off a stat sheet.

J DIZZ
04-07-2011, 02:41 PM
I'm noticing a stupid trend in the sports arena. We're comparing players to those in history when it's such a different game than back then. NBA legends who've acquired unimaginable stats are great but comparing them to 2011 players doesn't make sense. Rose and Wes Unfeld? Really? Is this the best you can come up with? Same-Generation comparisons are the only one that matter because they're playing the same game as each other.

Tarheels23
04-07-2011, 02:50 PM
So again i ask, why hasn't he put up more shots? And Stan Van Gundy isn't the answer.




I don't think increased FT attempts for Howard is a good thing.



They maybe, but people ignore that there is a reason behind it, something that can't get off a stat sheet.

Well a lot of it has to do with Stan Van's system of spread three point shooting whether you want to hear it or not. Players play in the coach's systems. But if not, then I'm sure passing out of double and triple teams has something to do with it.

You are right, more free throws for Howard isnt a good thing because of his low percentage. But it provides the opportunity for more more points whether he hits the shots or not. It also puts the opposing team in foul trouble and into the bonus for other teammates.

True, stat sheets do not tell the whole story. Which is why personally I think stats are overrated.

SteveNash
04-07-2011, 04:10 PM
lol Butt sore from that clutch shot he made in the fourth quarter to send steve nash back to his wife? oh wait

I've fully admitted that Steve Nash was a terrible MVP that didn't deserve either of the awards.

Why can't you do the same for Rose? Is it because you're young and trying to relive past glory that you couldn't really experience? That's my new hypothesis for most Bulls fans.


The answer is that they don't depend on him. If Howard put up another 500 shots this year, he would probably have a similar FG% as Rose, eventhough his attempts would still be from the paint.

The issue with Rose FG% is that the offense relies on Rose to an absurd degree. Just look at his usage rate. Simply, Rose taking shots is better for the team because it puts defenses on their heals at all times effectively getting other teamates open shots.

Rose is not all of a sudden a ball hog. He wasn't that in High School, or at Memphis. It simply is a matter of what's best for the team. I think we all know that Thibideau is not an idiot and if it was an issue it would have been taken care of by now.

Rose taking shots is worse for the team as it makes their offense more predictable and because Rose isn't an efficient player.

wa77ss
04-10-2011, 08:09 AM
To say Rose isn't winning many games for the Bulls just shows you shouldn't have even posted. To put it simply, you're just ignorant. You do not know what you're talking about. I can guarantee you Rose has had more game winners, dominant 4th quarters, and clutch moments than Howard. The whole 'team defense is winning games and not Rose' argument is the weakest, most absurd, ridiculous thing ever.

I'm also not so sure I wouldn't trade Howard for LeBron. I doubt Howard would have had those Cavs teams in first place..and I feel pretty good about the fact that if you put LeBron on the Magic and say...Gortat at center, they would have a better record than these current Howard-led Magic. That's neither here nor there though...

lol your an idiot thats why Howard averages more steals than Rose, more blocks, better FG%, and oh ya....orlando has been hurt all year, and been blown up.....and we still won 50 games. Rose is a great player but how do you go from a nobody last year to MVP this year? His team is the answer

Southsideheat
04-10-2011, 11:59 AM
Rose taking shots is worse for the team as it makes their offense more predictable and because Rose isn't an efficient player.

Predictable is better than bad, and his efficiency is related to his usage. Not that hard to comprehend. Sorry, i'm trusting Tom Thibodeau over someone on a message board.

Southsideheat
04-10-2011, 12:01 PM
lol your an idiot thats why Howard averages more steals than Rose, more blocks, better FG%, and oh ya....orlando has been hurt all year, and been blown up.....and we still won 50 games. Rose is a great player but how do you go from a nobody last year to MVP this year? His team is the answer

Are you saying his team is helping him on offense? Pretty ridiculous statement is you look at his usage rate. The Bulls would be the Bucks without Rose. Great defense, can't score.