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ManRam
03-30-2011, 04:51 PM
Part I (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=556860)

Part II (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=573546)

Part III (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=583265)

Part IV (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=587677)

Part V (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=593882)

Part VI (http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=601208)


Hopefully this is the last one of these stupid threads ;)

ManRam
03-30-2011, 04:53 PM
Slimmed down the choices...

Vote away. Have at it. Blah blah blah.

Gators123
03-30-2011, 04:53 PM
Dwight Howard=MVP

The Jokemaker
03-30-2011, 04:55 PM
The MVP order should be Kobe, Dwight, then Rose. No hate intended.

Sadds The Gr8
03-30-2011, 04:55 PM
Dwight Howard = MVP

StriveGreatness
03-30-2011, 04:56 PM
Derrick Rose pretty easily. Dwight second...

BcEuAbRsS
03-30-2011, 05:08 PM
The MVP order should be Kobe, Dwight, then Rose. No hate intended.

Any one of those guys could and should win it...

ManRam
03-30-2011, 05:15 PM
I think it's a three man race too between Rose, Howard and Kobe. Rose is obviously in the lead because he's been the most talked about for a while now, and because of his team's turnaround (best story). Even as much as I do support LeBron, I do get bothered seeing his name at the #2 spot on ESPN's list...or wherever else it might be. Best player in the league still by far...but he's not the MVP.

I would have liked to see Dirk make a run at it, especially after Butler went down, but the Lakers overtaking them kills his chances. If the Mavs finish somehow ahead of both LA and SA he does deserve some SERIOUS consideration, but that won't happen.

D Roses Bulls
03-30-2011, 05:18 PM
I think it's a three man race too between Rose, Howard and Kobe. Rose is obviously in the lead because he's been the most talked about for a while now, and because of his team's turnaround (best story). Even as much as I do support LeBron, I do get bothered seeing his name at the #2 spot on ESPN's list...or wherever else it might be. Best player in the league still by far...but he's not the MVP.

I would have liked to see Dirk make a run at it, especially after Butler went down, but the Lakers overtaking them kills his chances. If the Mavs finish somehow ahead of both LA and SA he does deserve some SERIOUS consideration, but that won't happen.

Yeah, I think the lovefest with ESPN and him have gone too damn far. he is not a top 3 candidate no more. like you said, it's rose, howard, and kobe are the only 3 right now in my mind that are in the discussion.

The Jokemaker
03-30-2011, 05:23 PM
Yeah, I think the lovefest with ESPN and him have gone too damn far. he is not a top 3 candidate no more. like you said, it's rose, howard, and kobe are the only 3 right now in my mind that are in the discussion.

Agreed, MVP isn't who is the best player in the league. He isn't the MVP on that team more or less the league.


My personal opinion is, as stated earlier, Kobe then Howard but honestly any of those three deserve to win it. They've had great seasons, led their teams, and it's tough to really pick one of them.

MJ-BULLS
03-30-2011, 05:25 PM
I think it's a three man race too between Rose, Howard and Kobe. Rose is obviously in the lead because he's been the most talked about for a while now, and because of his team's turnaround (best story). Even as much as I do support LeBron, I do get bothered seeing his name at the #2 spot on ESPN's list...or wherever else it might be. Best player in the league still by far...but he's not the MVP.

I would have liked to see Dirk make a run at it, especially after Butler went down, but the Lakers overtaking them kills his chances. If the Mavs finish somehow ahead of both LA and SA he does deserve some SERIOUS consideration, but that won't happen.

yes, Dirk should get more mention for mvp. my order. Ever since he came back the Mavs have been great.

Rose
Howard
Dirk

nitric
03-30-2011, 05:26 PM
Derrick Rose pretty easily. Dwight second...

Seconded. Unless the Magic go on a run and grab the 2nd seed, Dwight isn't winning it

ManRam
03-30-2011, 05:26 PM
Yeah, I think the lovefest with ESPN and him have gone too damn far. he is not a top 3 candidate no more. like you said, it's rose, howard, and kobe are the only 3 right now in my mind that are in the discussion.

It's not really ESPN, it's just one person's opinion...a guy who actually used "hater" to describe people who think Rose shouldn't win it, so I don't think highly of him in the first place. So let's not dig that deeply into it. It's clear lately that ESPN isn't painting a pretty picture of LeBron recently...a lot of their personalities love making fun of him :shrug: Certainly not a "love fest". They run with the bad far more than they run with the good.

I mean, there are plenty of other places that have LeBron in their top three. It's not crazy. He is, afterall, still the best player in the league. If pre-season expectations didn't exist, he'd probably win the thing.

kArSoN RyDaH
03-30-2011, 06:16 PM
If Lakers win out and grab the #1 seed, Kobe=MVP!

Jonathan2323
03-30-2011, 06:17 PM
Miami Herald Heat

LeBron called Derrick Rose his MVP today.

Still say its Dwight

ManRam
03-30-2011, 06:21 PM
Now after hearing that news, will we hear kind words from Bulls fans about LeBron James??

theheatles
03-30-2011, 06:22 PM
LeBron...no way no how anyone can be more valuable than LeBron...his versatility makes him just that...but we all know he won't win...which is a crime on the association...long live the king

D Roses Bulls
03-30-2011, 06:32 PM
Now after hearing that news, will we hear kind words from Bulls fans about LeBron James??

Not from me. still doesn't change the fact he is a douche bag

TO to the CHI
03-30-2011, 06:35 PM
Now after hearing that news, will we hear kind words from Bulls fans about LeBron James??

A Raptors fan, but my views on the Bulls are oft stated.

I gain respect for LeBron for this. I suspect that he doesn't really believe that to be true, but I respect him for making the effort to say the modest thing. Seriously.

Jonathan2323
03-30-2011, 06:38 PM
I don't think LeBron ever really wanted the award, he has already been there done that. Earlier in the year he made a comment that he basically took himself out of the running by joining up with D Wade.

Bullsfan22
03-30-2011, 06:53 PM
For the people that says Rose is inefficient; What would be a respectable PER,TS,EFG and FG% for him to win the mvp in your eyes?

abe_froman
03-30-2011, 06:56 PM
I don't think LeBron ever really want the award he has already been there done that. Earlier in the year he made a comment that he basically took himself out of the running by joining up with D Wade.

i dunno if that was because of want or from just reading the mood of the voters after the decision.he really set himself up to be a longshot at best just because of the backlash this past summer ,no matter what he did

theheatles
03-30-2011, 07:03 PM
For the people that says Rose is inefficient; What would be a respectable PER,TS,EFG and FG% for him to win the mvp in your eyes?

for all those numbers to be better than every1 else in the nba that r competing for the award

TO to the CHI
03-30-2011, 07:10 PM
for all those numbers to be better than every1 else in the nba that r competing for the award

So in your opinion DeAndre Jordan is a better candidate for MVP because he is leading the league in FG% (at least amongst players that have played over 15 games)?

Sounds like a very well reasoned approach. Thank you for sharing.

ManRam
03-30-2011, 07:20 PM
So in your opinion DeAndre Jordan is a better candidate for MVP because he is leading the league in FG% (at least amongst players that have played over 15 games)?

Sounds like a very well reasoned approach. Thank you for sharing.

I'll answer for him. No. You only addressed one of the 4 things he mentioned...and you mentioned the only one that isn't an advanced stat and doesn't try to equalized the disparity between positions.

So obviously that's not what he's getting at. But your sarcastic attitude is duly noted, although his answer was a bit unreasonable too...

Bullsfan22
03-30-2011, 07:22 PM
for all those numbers to be better than every1 else in the nba that r competing for the award

So than you won't ever have an mvp at a pg position. Centers should naturally shoot a higher percentage than a wing player because of their height and and shot selection being so close to the rim.

You want to try again? and be a little more realistic.

TO to the CHI
03-30-2011, 07:36 PM
I'll answer for him. No. You only addressed one of the 4 things he mentioned...and you mentioned the only one that isn't an advanced stat and doesn't try to equalized the disparity between positions.

So obviously that's not what he's getting at. But your sarcastic attitude is duly noted, although his answer was a bit unreasonable too...

His answer was a bit unreasonable????? Just a bit? Really?

By his logic, the MVP is stricly a function of stats and has no relationship to team performance beyond the fact that a stastically superior player should enable his team to be superior (an assumption that is not borne out in reality).

That is simply not how the MVP is or has ever been decided. Moreover, you deride my response for focusing on one stat that is not an advanced stat, but ignore that it was included in the thoughtless response provided by Heatles. I focused on FG% because it is the most absurd of the included stats, not because it is not an advanced stat. And it is absurd both because it dramatically favors post players, but also because many players, such as DeAndre Jordan, have terrific FG%s despite not having significant roles on offense.

I could have selected another stat used, for example TS% and found that the top-5 are Chandler, Nene, Shaq, DeAndre, and Bonner. An equally absurd list for MVP candidates. Btw, this is an advanced stat, and does equalize somewhat for positions. Care to throw out any more ludicrous defenses of an asinine position? Btw, check out the leaders in EFG%. Lots of legitimate MVP candidates there, huh?

Really, it appears that heatles, and you, want to focus on PER. That is the stat given that could rationally be used here for purposes of this discussion. But that wasn't the comment. Heatles took an easy way out and gave a laughable response. You tried to come to his defense and fell way WAY short of doing so.

So yeah, I was sarcastic. Sometimes that is an effective device to demonstrate absurdity. And it saved me having to type this much to respond to your post, which matched Heatles for absurdity.

Bottom line is that advanced stats are helpful tools and warrant very real consideration. However, taking such a narrow view of things (i.e. you need to be the best in a given set of four stats) is just stupid. Manram, I know that wasn't your position, but your post just missed the mark. Period.

Jewelz0376
03-30-2011, 07:45 PM
If the Lakers can finish out with the best record in the league I give it to Kobe...if not Rose should get it... Either way it doesn't matter to me as long as Kobe gets finals mvp :D

Baller1
03-30-2011, 07:56 PM
No love for KD, what a shame.

TO to the CHI
03-30-2011, 08:02 PM
No love for KD, what a shame.

I agree that he is a solid candidate, but he gets hurt for what was perceived as a very slow start (it really wasn't, but expectations were huge after his incredible performance at the World Championships), because he plays with another candidate in Westbrook, and because his team is 4th in its conference.

I am very confident KD will get his in the future though. He is a stud.

Bullsfan22
03-30-2011, 08:07 PM
People are slow to answer my question but quick to call him inefficient.

Like I said for the people that say he's inefficient what would you realistically want his PER,TS,EFG% and fg% to be in your opinion to call him the mvp?

Yagyu+
03-30-2011, 08:12 PM
Howdy, NBA forum! Been reading a lot of great things about y'all. Thought I might mosey on down and say hello (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=6274778).

ManRam
03-30-2011, 08:20 PM
His answer was a bit unreasonable????? Just a bit? Really?

By his logic, the MVP is stricly a function of stats and has no relationship to team performance beyond the fact that a stastically superior player should enable his team to be superior (an assumption that is not borne out in reality).

That is simply not how the MVP is or has ever been decided. Moreover, you deride my response for focusing on one stat that is not an advanced stat, but ignore that it was included in the thoughtless response provided by Heatles. I focused on FG% because it is the most absurd of the included stats, not because it is not an advanced stat. And it is absurd both because it dramatically favors post players, but also because many players, such as DeAndre Jordan, have terrific FG%s despite not having significant roles on offense.

I could have selected another stat used, for example TS% and found that the top-5 are Chandler, Nene, Shaq, DeAndre, and Bonner. An equally absurd list for MVP candidates. Btw, this is an advanced stat, and does equalize somewhat for positions. Care to throw out any more ludicrous defenses of an asinine position? Btw, check out the leaders in EFG%. Lots of legitimate MVP candidates there, huh?

Really, it appears that heatles, and you, want to focus on PER. That is the stat given that could rationally be used here for purposes of this discussion. But that wasn't the comment. Heatles took an easy way out and gave a laughable response. You tried to come to his defense and fell way WAY short of doing so.

So yeah, I was sarcastic. Sometimes that is an effective device to demonstrate absurdity. And it saved me having to type this much to respond to your post, which matched Heatles for absurdity.

Bottom line is that advanced stats are helpful tools and warrant very real consideration. However, taking such a narrow view of things (i.e. you need to be the best in a given set of four stats) is just stupid. Manram, I know that wasn't your position, but your post just missed the mark. Period.

Uhh....let's review.

The question was...


For the people that says Rose is inefficient; What would be a respectable PER,TS,EFG and FG% for him to win the mvp in your eyes?

He said...


for all those numbers to be better than every1 else in the nba that r competing for the award

Your response included DeAndre Jordan, who is not "competing" and your response included just one of those stats (FG%) not all 4. You basically just blew off everything he said and provided a counter argument that just was completely unrelated to what he was saying.

We both agree that he doesn't simply need to win out on those 4 stats to win the award, don't get why you just wrote an essay telling me that...but your question was double barreled. You asked about why he's percieved as inefficient (because those stats suck compared to the other contenders) and then threw in what he'd have to do to win. Realistically, to become more efficient, and to become a stronger candidate period, he just has to get all those numbers up...period. He doesn't need it to win...he just needs to do it to be better.

And I certainly didn't say that stats are all that matters. You're putting a lot of words in my mouth. You're really putting words in everyone's mouths here. Go back and read what was said :shrug:

I think we're arguing over nothing here.

theheatles
03-30-2011, 08:35 PM
So than you won't ever have an mvp at a pg position. Centers should naturally shoot a higher percentage than a wing player because of their height and and shot selection being so close to the rim.

You want to try again? and be a little more realistic.

the nba is a big mans league and a big man should always get the benefit of the doubt over a pg unless the pg does some truly remarkable things which rose clearly has not done...rose is not top 5 in any statistical category whether it's standard or advanced...lebron and dwight far more deserving than rose...there is empirical evidence that the magic and heat r substantially worse when dwight and lebron are off the court but the bulls don't lose a beat without rose...theres nothing that can be said or shown to prove otherwise...but the mvp isn't an award based on any absolutes so rose will win because cretins like mike wilbon polluted peoples minds far too early and the media ran with the humble hometown hero thats anti lebron

TO to the CHI
03-30-2011, 08:52 PM
Uhh....let's review.

The question was...



He said...



Your response included DeAndre Jordan, who is not "competing" and your response included just one of those stats (FG%) not all 4. You basically just blew off everything he said and provided a counter argument that just was completely unrelated to what he was saying.

We both agree that he doesn't simply need to win out on those 4 stats to win the award, don't get why you just wrote an essay telling me that...but your question was double barreled. You asked about why he's percieved as inefficient (because those stats suck compared to the other contenders) and then threw in what he'd have to do to win. Realistically, to become more efficient, and to become a stronger candidate period, he just has to get all those numbers up...period. He doesn't need it to win...he just needs to do it to be better.

And I certainly didn't say that stats are all that matters. You're putting a lot of words in my mouth. You're really putting words in everyone's mouths here. Go back and read what was said :shrug:

I think we're arguing over nothing here.

As an initial matter, I was not the one who posed the question. I was merely pointing out that Heatles' response was stupid and ignored numerous factors. Additionally, I didn't know that certain players had decided that they were not "competing for the award." What you are really (or Heatles is really) saying is that only players who are widely viewed as contenders (i.e. competing for the MVP award) should have those 4 stats considered. But this is an absurd proposition considering that the people who determine the favorites are relying on the current system (abstract though that might be) not the metrics suggested.

Idontcare
03-30-2011, 08:52 PM
I'll go with rose right now but if the lakers win out and finish with the best record in the league then I'll take Kobe forsure!

D Roses Bulls
03-30-2011, 09:31 PM
Dwight didn't help his chances tonight.

northsider
03-30-2011, 09:34 PM
Posted this in the other thread but, figured I would put it here as well. I think it is a good read on Rose and his MVP run this year. Take from it what you will.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/643843-derrick-rose-the-mvp-and-why-the-stat-geeks-dont-need-to-tear-their-eyes

D Roses Bulls
03-30-2011, 09:35 PM
Posted this in the other thread but, figured I would put it here as well. I think it is a good read on Rose and his MVP run this year. Take from it what you will.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/643843-derrick-rose-the-mvp-and-why-the-stat-geeks-dont-need-to-tear-their-eyes

Read it earlier, I thought it was better than most of the stuff on BR

ManRam
03-30-2011, 10:40 PM
Sorry, but that was an average article at best.

The usage percantage argument is just laughable. I mean, sure, it's ONLY at 32.5%, but that's second in the league, and if it was an higher, that would just be insane. Using that to say he passes a lot is just hilarious. (I don't think pass-first PGs are necessarily better, for the record...just look at championship winning teams...I actually prefer score first PGs on well-rounded teams).

So for that reason, he's wasting his breath on the whole pass-first argument thing. I don't think anyone gives a **** about that. He does pass plenty, and showing his #2 usage rating isn't how you prove that.

Thibs not complaining about him shooting too much is a valid argument I guess, but what coach complains about a player shooting too much? I don't think I've ever heard it my life? Rose doesn't shoot too much. Sometimes he just shoots bad shots, and sometimes he IS just inefficient. Period. Stats do tell a lot, and making fun of them and completely writing them off ARE NOT how you explain how they don't tell the whole story (they don't). There are articulate and feasible ways to do so...he didn't do that.


The Deng for defensive player of the year thing is silly. Deng was on the team last year. He's clearly not the reason the defense has gotten better. Defense usually starts from the inside out...scratch that...defense starts with the coaching. That's just a cop out argument.

His offense when Rose is on the court vs. defense when Rose is off the court argument is internally flawed because his logic for discrediting why the defensive numbers are better when he's off (the benches being in) probably has something to do with the reason why the offensive numbers being better when he's in (the starters being in with him). ;)

Injuries: legit.


I don't know...I just don't get why it's so controversial to just give this team props for being an amazing defensive team. :shrug:


Looks like he started off making it clear that MVP is a team award. It is, and that's why he's going to win, and should win. Stick to that argument instead of the silly arguments that rest on poor logic. Rose is having a great year. Hell, use some better stats. Talk about the turn around. Talk about the clutch play. Talk about the game winners. Talk about that stuff. Talk about his leadership. Those arguments above are pretty weak IMO.

A lot of good points, a lot of silly ones. But all in all...nothing ground breaking.

Bullsfan22
03-30-2011, 10:57 PM
the nba is a big mans league and a big man should always get the benefit of the doubt over a pg unless the pg does some truly remarkable things which rose clearly has not done...rose is not top 5 in any statistical category whether it's standard or advanced...lebron and dwight far more deserving than rose...there is empirical evidence that the magic and heat r substantially worse when dwight and lebron are off the court but the bulls don't lose a beat without rose...theres nothing that can be said or shown to prove otherwise...but the mvp isn't an award based on any absolutes so rose will win because cretins like mike wilbon polluted peoples minds far too early and the media ran with the humble hometown hero thats anti lebron

alright I'm done talking to you. You can't answer a question.


can anyone answer the question?

theheatles
03-30-2011, 11:14 PM
For the people that says Rose is inefficient; What would be a respectable PER,TS,EFG and FG% for him to win the mvp in your eyes?


for all those numbers to be better than every1 else in the nba that r competing for the award

this is all that what said...how did i ignore numerous factors?...i simple stated that rose efficiencies should be better and you spurt off numerous lines of complete balderdash... are you drunk? you didn't prove anything at all with your ramblings...you were put to shame with your horrible example of deandre jordan in your attempt to bash my simple response and you want to call me stupid and what not because of your issues....so don't try to put words in my mouth because i never said those 4 stats were the end all be all for the mvp...no stats at all suggest rose is worthy of the mvp...whoever has the best numbers on a top team is usually who gets the mvp...lebron and dwight put up better numbers(standard,advanced)...defense and offense is built around each and there is empirical data that shows when lebron and dwight are off the court, their teams struggle more than when rose is off the court for the bulls...rose is going to win the award, i just want all bulls fans to just know rose is going to win off politics and media endorsements, and not solely on his play...:horse:

theheatles
03-30-2011, 11:16 PM
alright I'm done talking to you. You can't answer a question.


can anyone answer the question?

which question

Jewelz0376
03-30-2011, 11:22 PM
alright I'm done talking to you. You can't answer a question.


can anyone answer the question?

Cp3 - 28.3 per, .576 ts%, 125 ortg, 13.2 ows 48.8 fg%
Rose - 23.3 per, .540 ts%, 111 ortg, 6.9 ows 44.0 fg%

That's some of cp3 stats from 07-08....Not saying people expect Rose to put up numbers that good, but I think some people are expecting at least something in between

Bullsfan22
03-30-2011, 11:22 PM
People are slow to answer my question but quick to call him inefficient.

Like I said for the people that say he's inefficient what would you realistically want his PER,TS,EFG% and fg% to be in your opinion to call him the mvp?

^^

theheatles
03-30-2011, 11:24 PM
People are slow to answer my question but quick to call him inefficient.

Like I said for the people that say he's inefficient what would you realistically want his PER,TS,EFG% and fg% to be in your opinion to call him the mvp?

player efficiency rating is the most important out of those and rose 11th right now in per, i think the mvp should at least be top 5 or be top 2 like lebron and dwight...his true shooting % isn't terrible but it has to improve...roses fg% should be much better considering he's not a really a jump shooter, he's more of a slasher that scores going to the hole and with that beautiful floater that makes him special...i know i'm going to hear he's been shooting more 3's and that's why it's down..but then he shouldn't shoot more 3's, thats a problem

swirl54
03-30-2011, 11:32 PM
player efficiency rating is the most important out of those and rose 11th right now in per, i think the mvp should at least be top 5 or be top 2 like lebron and dwight...his true shooting % isn't terrible but it has to improve...roses fg% should be much better considering he's not a really a jump shooter, he's more of a slasher that scores going to the hole and with that beautiful floater that makes him special...i know i'm going to hear he's been shooting more 3's and that's why it's down..but then he shouldn't shoot more 3's, thats a problem

Rose doesn't care about stats. Rose is the MVP.

theheatles
03-30-2011, 11:34 PM
Rose doesn't care about stats. Rose is the MVP.

i'm not doubting he will win it, he just doesn't deserve it

tredigs
03-31-2011, 12:00 AM
Rose doesn't care about stats. Rose is the MVP.

You do realize "stats" are just an objective, direct reflection of how a player has performed, right? Whether or not "he likes them" (says a random Bulls fan who realizes his stats don't quite measure up to your standard MVP), they are him.

DROSE4MVP
03-31-2011, 12:03 AM
i'm not doubting he will win it, he just doesn't deserve it

I don't understand how you can say he doesn't deserve it? Because he hasn't put stats that are appeasing to you? Rose and Thibs are the real main reasons why the Bulls are doing so well, but no one expected this out of the Bulls. People thought we would be the 4th or 5th seed in the East before the season, but now look at us... we almost have the best record in the ENTIRE league. Thibs deserves a lot of credit for turning our defense around and making this defense the best in the league right now.

But to say Rose doesn't deserve the MVP award? That's stupid to say. Rose is not the best player in the league, LeBron is the best basketball player in the league. But Rose is more valuable to the Bulls then LeBron is to the Heat. That's what it's about... yes, LeBron is more valuable, but it's about who's more valuable to their respective team. If the Heat don't have LeBron, their probably still a 5th or 4th seed in the East. If the Bulls lost Rose... we would have no playmaker and would look eerily similar to the Bucks because of our defense, which means we'd be fighting for the 8th seed in the playoffs.

Howard, Kobe, LeBron, Dirk and Rose all deserve the MVP award. Rose has just gotten the most exposure because what he has done to get this team, which has exceeded everyone's expectations, to the top of the Eastern Conference is pretty damn impressive. I'll say this though, if the Lakers pass the Bulls and Spurs for the best record in the league... it'll be a close call between Rose and Kobe for MVP... but we all know which MVP Kobe wants... and I'm pretty Rose would prefer that one too.

ChI_ShIzzLe
03-31-2011, 12:06 AM
player efficiency rating is the most important out of those and rose 11th right now in per, i think the mvp should at least be top 5 or be top 2 like lebron and dwight...his true shooting % isn't terrible but it has to improve...roses fg% should be much better considering he's not a really a jump shooter, he's more of a slasher that scores going to the hole and with that beautiful floater that makes him special...i know i'm going to hear he's been shooting more 3's and that's why it's down..but then he shouldn't shoot more 3's, thats a problem

Thats what separates him from others. He knows he's not a great 3-point shooter to be taking all those 3s but he said that its not gonna make him stop shooting it because he wants to be great at it. He knows he can get to the rim anytime he wants, but he wants that shot to be a part of his game in the long-run to keep defenses honest and make him even more impossible to guard.

marlinsfan24
03-31-2011, 12:06 AM
Would anyone mind if I just took the MVP award? I've never won anything before and this would make me really happy....

ChI_ShIzzLe
03-31-2011, 12:13 AM
Would anyone mind if I just took the MVP award? I've never won anything before and this would make me really happy....

Neither have I. But I deserve it more than you because I'm sexier :D

marlinsfan24
03-31-2011, 12:15 AM
Neither have I. But I deserve it more than you because I'm sexier :D

Can we settle on being co-MVP's. It will show the world that Bulls and Heat fans can share. Maybe that will give some inspiration to the Middle East!

ChI_ShIzzLe
03-31-2011, 12:17 AM
Can we settle on being co-MVP's. It will show the world that Bulls and Heat fans can share. Maybe that will give some inspiration to the Middle East!

No **** you. I want the MVP to myself and I want the oil to myself cuz I'm a ****ing AMERICAN! :D

tredigs
03-31-2011, 12:19 AM
I don't understand how you can say he doesn't deserve it? Because he hasn't put stats that are appeasing to you? Rose and Thibs are the real main reasons why the Bulls are doing so well, but no one expected this out of the Bulls. People thought we would be the 4th or 5th seed in the East before the season, but now look at us... we almost have the best record in the ENTIRE league. Thibs deserves a lot of credit for turning our defense around and making this defense the best in the league right now.

But to say Rose doesn't deserve the MVP award? That's stupid to say. Rose is not the best player in the league, LeBron is the best basketball player in the league. But Rose is more valuable to the Bulls then LeBron is to the Heat. That's what it's about... yes, LeBron is more valuable, but it's about who's more valuable to their respective team. If the Heat don't have LeBron, their probably still a 5th or 4th seed in the East. If the Bulls lost Rose... we would have no playmaker and would look eerily similar to the Bucks because of our defense, which means we'd be fighting for the 8th seed in the playoffs.

Howard, Kobe, LeBron, Dirk and Rose all deserve the MVP award. Rose has just gotten the most exposure because what he has done to get this team, which has exceeded everyone's expectations, to the top of the Eastern Conference is pretty damn impressive. I'll say this though, if the Lakers pass the Bulls and Spurs for the best record in the league... it'll be a close call between Rose and Kobe for MVP... but we all know which MVP Kobe wants... and I'm pretty Rose would prefer that one too.

Very fair post, but there's two things I have contention with (I'll just touch on one for now)

I hear the argument often that the Bulls "would essentially be the Bucks" if they had a replacement PG instead of Rose. Fact is, that flat out isn't true. Take a completely mediocre PG in the league (somewhere around 15th best, let's say Jameer Nelson), and the Bulls still likely have the leagues #1 ranked defense, and still have a mediocre offense - it would go from higher medium to lower medium - but by no means would be bottom 5. They still have Deng and Boozer, Noah (who is a competent finisher and a smart passing big), and one of the best three point shooters in the league. Throw in an average PG (who in this league, is still very, very competent) and you have yourself a top 4-5 team in the east.

I would argue that Lebron does more for his team to be a potential contender than Rose does for the Rose to be a potential contender. They're both absolutely necessary, but IMO Lebron is MUCH more important than Rose in that regard. And that's to be expected when one player is that much better than another.

marlinsfan24
03-31-2011, 12:19 AM
No **** you. I want the MVP to myself and I want the oil to myself cuz I'm a ****ing AMERICAN! :D

So am I! It's on!

DROSE4MVP
03-31-2011, 12:24 AM
Very fair post, but there's two things I have contention with (I'll just touch on one for now)

I hear the argument often that the Bulls "would essentially be the Bucks" if they had a replacement PG instead of Rose. Fact is, that flat out isn't true. Take a completely mediocre PG in the league (somewhere around 15th best, let's say Jameer Nelson), and the Bulls still likely have the leagues #1 ranked defense, and still have a mediocre offense - it would go from higher medium to lower medium - but by no means would be bottom 5. They still have Deng and Boozer, Noah (who is a competent finisher and a smart passing big), and one of the best three point shooters in the league. Throw in an average PG (who in this league, is still very, very competent) and you have yourself a top 4-5 team in the east.

I would argue that Lebron does more for his team to be a potential contender than Rose does for the Rose to be a potential contender. They're both absolutely necessary, but IMO Lebron is MUCH more important than Rose in that regard. And that's to be expected when one player is that much better than another.

If the Bulls got Jameer Nelson, then yeah we would be up there as a 4-6 team because of our defense and rebounding, but let's say we just had C.J. Watson... I mean I like C.J., but the guy isn't big at play-making (thought I liked what I saw when he filled in for Rose against Denver). Who knows... let's just talk about the fact that MVP doesn't mean squat if you don't get the real hardware in June. MVP is a very special accolade I'm sure for any NBA player, but the NBA Championship is more important to the players then the MVP. If it isn't, well then you're a very selfish player.

DaBear
03-31-2011, 12:26 AM
I wish there was a stat for players who have the most uncalled fouls because Rose would be leading that category by a big margin.

DaBear
03-31-2011, 12:30 AM
Very fair post, but there's two things I have contention with (I'll just touch on one for now)

I hear the argument often that the Bulls "would essentially be the Bucks" if they had a replacement PG instead of Rose. Fact is, that flat out isn't true. Take a completely mediocre PG in the league (somewhere around 15th best, let's say Jameer Nelson), and the Bulls still likely have the leagues #1 ranked defense, and still have a mediocre offense - it would go from higher medium to lower medium - but by no means would be bottom 5. They still have Deng and Boozer, Noah (who is a competent finisher and a smart passing big), and one of the best three point shooters in the league. Throw in an average PG (who in this league, is still very, very competent) and you have yourself a top 4-5 team in the east.

I would argue that Lebron does more for his team to be a potential contender than Rose does for the Rose to be a potential contender. They're both absolutely necessary, but IMO Lebron is MUCH more important than Rose in that regard. And that's to be expected when one player is that much better than another.

I strongly disagree with this. Rose opens up the floor for Korver, Boozer, and Deng because he attracts so much attention when driving to the paint. If you replaced him with Jameer Nelson, I don't think they would even win 45 games. Rose's offensive game is leagues ahead of Nelson's, and replacing the Bulls best offensive player with a mediocore player like Nelson would change their whole game plan for the worse. You're replacing a superstar with a role player. No way they would still be a top 5 team in the East.

I would have agreed with you had LeBron still been on the Cavs. Actually, he most likely would have won MVP again. However, when you have Wade and Bosh on the team, he can't win MVP especially when the teams overall record is worse than the Cavs record last year. Miami would still be a top 4 team in the East without LeBron. The Bulls without Rose wouldn't.

DaBear
03-31-2011, 12:45 AM
And I'm not sure how you can make a case for LeBron at this point. The third best player on the Heat is arguably better than the 2nd best player on the Bulls, and yet their record is worse. Not to mention he's playing alongside another top 5 player in the NBA, and Rose doesn't even have a top 15 player on his roster.

tredigs
03-31-2011, 01:04 AM
And I'm not sure how you can make a case for LeBron at this point. The third best player on the Heat is arguably better than the 2nd best player on the Bulls, and yet their record is worse. Not to mention he's playing alongside another top 5 player in the NBA, and Rose doesn't even have a top 15 player on his roster.

So this said - you're taking the argument that the Heat's team - starting 1-5, plus their bench... and their coach, is better than the Bulls as a whole?

DaBear
03-31-2011, 01:34 AM
So this said - you're taking the argument that the Heat's team - starting 1-5, plus their bench... and their coach, is better than the Bulls as a whole?

I don't think Miami is better top to bottom, but having 2 top 5 players and 1 top 15 player will compensate when you're comparing them to a team who's best player is a top 10 player and the next best player might be top 20.

tredigs
03-31-2011, 01:48 AM
I don't think Miami is better top to bottom, but having 2 top 5 players and 1 top 15 player will compensate when you're comparing them to a team who's best player is a top 10 player and the next best player might be top 20.

And if the Bulls didn't have Rose (replaced by a default league average PG) and the Heat didn't have Lebron (replaced by a default league average SF), would the Bulls still not be better team top to bottom - and by a greater margin?

It's a rhetorical question to an extent, but one that we all know the answer to. The point being, the Bulls - as a WHOLE - are a very solid team - and may actually be better than the Heat despite the Heat's top-heavy core. Derrick Rose is one large cog in a very, very solid machine. Lebron is simply one of two reasons why that team is where it is. You can't point to their interior presence, to their coach, their bench - nothing. It's Lebron and Wade supplemented with an inconsistent Bosh.

There is literally zero doubt in my mind that both those guys are not only better (clearly), but more "valuable".

Oddly enough, my vote is for Rose so long as they take the #1 seed.

DaBear
03-31-2011, 01:53 AM
And if the Bulls didn't have Rose (replaced by a default league average PG) and the Heat didn't have Lebron (replaced by a default league average SF), would the Bulls still not be better team top to bottom - and by a greater margin?

It's a rhetorical question that we all know the answer to. The point being, the Bulls - as a WHOLE - are a very solid team - and may actually be better than the Heat despite the Heat's top-heavy core. Derrick Rose is one large cog in a very, very solid machine. Lebron is simply one of two reasons why that team is where it is. You can't point to their interior presence, to their coach, their bench - nothing. It's Lebron and Wade supplemented with an inconsistent Bosh.

There is literally zero doubt in my mind that both those guys are not only better (clearly), but more "valuable".

Oddly enough, my vote is for Rose so long as they take the #1 seed.

No, they wouldn't. How would a team with Boozer/Deng as their best players be better than a team with Wade and Bosh? There would be no one on the Bulls to create shots for the rest of the offense, which would be similar to the Milwaukee Bucks. Replacing LeBron with an average SF would still make them a top 5 team in the East. The Bulls would still have a better bench, but their lineup just wouldn't compete with Miami's and that would be the deciding factor.

Yes, both guys are valuable to their teams. I look at it this way: How would those teams fair without them? I think the Bulls would struggle just to get a 6-8 seed. Miami would still, without a doubt in my mind, be a top 5 team in the East. Especially since Bosh would play a bigger role on the team.

DaBear
03-31-2011, 01:57 AM
Before the season, Miami was suppose to run away with the East's top seed and the Bulls were just a top four team in the East. I don't think you would find anyone except some Bulls fans to believe the Bulls would be where they are right now.

tredigs
03-31-2011, 01:58 AM
No, they wouldn't. How would a team with Boozer/Deng as their best players be better than a team with Wade and Bosh? There would be no one on the Bulls to create shots for the rest of the offense, which would be similar to the Milwaukee Bucks. Replacing LeBron with an average SF would still make them a top 5 team in the East. The Bulls would still have a better bench, but their lineup just wouldn't compete with Miami's and that would be the deciding factor.

Yes, both guys are valuable to their teams. I look at it this way: How would those teams fair without them? I think the Bulls would struggle just to get a 6-8 seed. Miami would still, without a doubt in my mind, be a top 5 team in the East. Especially since Bosh would play a bigger role on the team.

Bulls would have the #1 defense in the league and would still have a capable PG to create for them. This isn't a scenario where CJ Watson is their PG - it's a situation where Rose would be replaced with a mediocre PG - ala Devin Harris or Jameer Nelson. These players can still create and score, which is exactly what they would do. Would they be a top team? No. But they would WITHOUT A DOUBT be stronger with a defense that menacing than a Miami Heat squad sans James.

I'd get into the nitty gritty of this, but it's already 11 here and I have to be up in 6 hours. We can talk about it more manana - but I'd just assume not.

Also, this "before the season" crap needs to end. Peoples blind speculation of teams is one thing, actually seeing them on the floor is another. Take that poll a month into the season once the analysts, fans, etc. actually got to see first hand what they were talking about, and you have a far different picture of where people expect the teams to end up come seasons end.

redwhitenblue
03-31-2011, 02:03 AM
Eh whatever.


Rose sucks, he's terribly inefficient and he'll be the worst MVP ever.


But he'll still be the MVP.

Bullsfan22
03-31-2011, 05:26 AM
lol if these threads has done one thing for me it has gotten me a higher post count. beyond that I've seen the same old people making the same old statement to diminish derrick rose's worth to the team.

Nobody will change my mind or can prove to me what will happen if you replace player A with player B it's all blanket statements. The only thing you can do is mix in the averages and estimate how good a team would be without they're main piece.

You people didn't know how good the Bulls would be before the season because team chemistry/roles are fragile, especially with a team built the way we are. everybody fits well with Rose on offense and at some points he basically carries are team offensively more than ANYONE in the league (not only by scoring) but by attacking the paint and just by simply being a bigger threat than any average point guard that you'd plug in to replace him. Guys may not get the same shots without rose and could become worse overall because none other player on the bulls can create their shot consistently.

I'm not going argue something that's not going to happen that you simply can't predict to the tee. It's a waste of time. Would we still be a good team without Rose? Yes. But no great defense would make up for the hole a guy like rose would leave because everything revolves around him with our offense.

MVP's make average teams good to great/contenders no one player carries a team to the finals.

Different players make different impacts i'm not even claiming rose makes the biggest because i'd be a fool too, simply because of his stature and how he can't naturally effect games (like a center or even a sf can). adding on to the fact that he's not the best player.

Us bulls fans understand what great defense can do for a team we've been watching it all damn year so it's not a matter of us/me underrating our GREAT team defense. It is another side of the ball an when it's all said and done you have to score the ball with some sort of decency to get to where the Bulls are at.

before every magic fan float in here and start comparing rose to howard save yourself time because im not comparing or making a case of who should be mvp.

DaBear
03-31-2011, 10:15 AM
Bulls would have the #1 defense in the league and would still have a capable PG to create for them. This isn't a scenario where CJ Watson is their PG - it's a situation where Rose would be replaced with a mediocre PG - ala Devin Harris or Jameer Nelson. These players can still create and score, which is exactly what they would do. Would they be a top team? No. But they would WITHOUT A DOUBT be stronger with a defense that menacing than a Miami Heat squad sans James.

I'd get into the nitty gritty of this, but it's already 11 here and I have to be up in 6 hours. We can talk about it more manana - but I'd just assume not.

Also, this "before the season" crap needs to end. Peoples blind speculation of teams is one thing, actually seeing them on the floor is another. Take that poll a month into the season once the analysts, fans, etc. actually got to see first hand what they were talking about, and you have a far different picture of where people expect the teams to end up come seasons end.

I have to disagree because I don't think Harris or Nelson would be able to create the type of offense Rose does for the Bulls, but I think we can stop there because I don't think the Bulls with a mediocore PG would beat Wade, Bosh, and the Heat.

smiddy012
03-31-2011, 10:45 AM
During the offseason I thought the Bulls could have the best bench, best rebounding, and best bigs (collectively) in the league. I also stated on PSD that Rose>Bosh - I was pretty much roasted for all of this - written off as a crazy Bulls fan.

So Bulls fans should stop trying to convince Heat fans or anti-bulls fans of our teams worth or Rose's - the Bulls are better than even the most psychotically optimistic Bulls fan could have imagined this offseason post "the decision." Like Rose said, we havnt accomplished **** - only time will tell - and the Bulls have time on their side moreso than any team in the league, their actions, not their talk, will prove more than our words ever could.

Dnovakovic099
03-31-2011, 10:46 AM
Bulls would have the #1 defense in the league and would still have a capable PG to create for them. This isn't a scenario where CJ Watson is their PG - it's a situation where Rose would be replaced with a mediocre PG - ala Devin Harris or Jameer Nelson. These players can still create and score, which is exactly what they would do. Would they be a top team? No. But they would WITHOUT A DOUBT be stronger with a defense that menacing than a Miami Heat squad sans James.

I'd get into the nitty gritty of this, but it's already 11 here and I have to be up in 6 hours. We can talk about it more manana - but I'd just assume not.

Also, this "before the season" crap needs to end. Peoples blind speculation of teams is one thing, actually seeing them on the floor is another. Take that poll a month into the season once the analysts, fans, etc. actually got to see first hand what they were talking about, and you have a far different picture of where people expect the teams to end up come seasons end.

If you honestly think that replacing LeBron with Deng (I picked Deng because he is on the level of Jammer Nelson) and replacing Rose with Nelson, the Bulls would have more wins than the Heat then you don't watch Bulls games. You are just making statements without watching games. You have to realize that Rose is pretty much the whole offense on the Bulls. Almost always, whenever someone scores it is because of Rose getting double teamed, breaking down a defense, or just making a good pass. If you take LeBron out Wade could make plays for his teammates just like he did last year.

IMO there is absolutely no case for James because he has Wade and Bosh. Howard on the other hand maybe, but the Magic just plain aren't that good, and will not get past the second round, and might even lose in the first.

Dnovakovic099
03-31-2011, 10:47 AM
Bulls would have the #1 defense in the league and would still have a capable PG to create for them. This isn't a scenario where CJ Watson is their PG - it's a situation where Rose would be replaced with a mediocre PG - ala Devin Harris or Jameer Nelson. These players can still create and score, which is exactly what they would do. Would they be a top team? No. But they would WITHOUT A DOUBT be stronger with a defense that menacing than a Miami Heat squad sans James.

I'd get into the nitty gritty of this, but it's already 11 here and I have to be up in 6 hours. We can talk about it more manana - but I'd just assume not.

Also, this "before the season" crap needs to end. Peoples blind speculation of teams is one thing, actually seeing them on the floor is another. Take that poll a month into the season once the analysts, fans, etc. actually got to see first hand what they were talking about, and you have a far different picture of where people expect the teams to end up come seasons end.

Also, just give up. Duncan, Durant, and Dirk all mean more to their teams than James does to the Heat. Only because James is the best and most dominant player dosen't mean he is the most valuable.

footballer2369
03-31-2011, 11:03 AM
Also, just give up. Duncan, Durant, and Dirk all mean more to their teams than James does to the Heat. Only because James is the best and most dominant player dosen't mean he is the most valuable.

Difference is: he can point to stats (and Cleveland's demise) while you have unsupported, biased opinion. He is not a Lebron/Heat fan, he is an objective fan, while you clearly have an investment in Rose4MVP.

Chronz
03-31-2011, 11:20 AM
I have to disagree because I don't think Harris or Nelson would be able to create the type of offense Rose does for the Bulls, but I think we can stop there because I don't think the Bulls with a mediocore PG would beat Wade, Bosh, and the Heat.

Well when your analysis consists of naming names, your clearly not in the wrong.

sledge_mylez
03-31-2011, 11:42 AM
How can so many people not mention LeBron in the top 3. I am flabbergasted look at his stats. They are the best in the leauge except for Howard. Rose is a volume scorer. I swear people that say Rose dont care about efficiency. This month alone he is shooting 42% which is terrible.

Howard
Lebron
Rose/Kobe
Dirk

Chronz
03-31-2011, 11:51 AM
Also, just give up. Duncan, Durant, and Dirk all mean more to their teams than James does to the Heat. Only because James is the best and most dominant player dosen't mean he is the most valuable.

Well when you come at him with arguments like these can you really blame him for not giving up?

Duncan?

Dirk and Durant I could maybe see the case but just how good are those teams in your eyes without those stars and how good are the Heat?

Chronz
03-31-2011, 12:07 PM
No, they wouldn't. How would a team with Boozer/Deng as their best players be better than a team with Wade and Bosh? There would be no one on the Bulls to create shots for the rest of the offense, which would be similar to the Milwaukee Bucks.
Hes talking replacement value isnt he? Like your going to add an average PG to the team and an average SF, well if you havent noticed the average PG now adays is pretty damn good, its a league packed with them, the dropoff from Bron to your average SF is significantly greater. That adds value to Brons position and provides his team a slightly greater edge at the position.

All that said, I like your method better, just flat out how good that team would be without that player. And following your train of thought,

With the Bulls defense and an offense comparable to the Bucks they would easily finish .500. Thanks for finally answering something Ive been begging Rose supporters to answer, the state of their offense boiled down to efficiency levels.


Replacing LeBron with an average SF would still make them a top 5 team in the East. The Bulls would still have a better bench, but their lineup just wouldn't compete with Miami's and that would be the deciding factor.
Yes, both guys are valuable to their teams. I look at it this way: How would those teams fair without them? I think the Bulls would struggle just to get a 6-8 seed. Miami would still, without a doubt in my mind, be a top 5 team in the East. Especially since Bosh would play a bigger role on the team.

Given the injuries this year to Miami, the fact that they lack the depth to stop the bleeding during any sort of setback (unlike the Bulls), and how much Bron means to them on both ends with his versatility, its debatable.

The Heat without James and just Bosh/Wade are a better team than that but with the amount of setbacks (Wades injury before the season and him starting off even worse than he started off last year), Bosh having a rough stretch, the absence of their best role players, this team doesnt win as many games as you think, given what I know about their obstacles, I would actually take the team Wade had last year over this years team without James in terms of regular season Wins and they werent all that good but they were healthy and strong defensively.

Tarheels23
03-31-2011, 12:09 PM
No, they wouldn't. How would a team with Boozer/Deng as their best players be better than a team with Wade and Bosh? There would be no one on the Bulls to create shots for the rest of the offense, which would be similar to the Milwaukee Bucks. Replacing LeBron with an average SF would still make them a top 5 team in the East. The Bulls would still have a better bench, but their lineup just wouldn't compete with Miami's and that would be the deciding factor.

Yes, both guys are valuable to their teams. I look at it this way: How would those teams fair without them? I think the Bulls would struggle just to get a 6-8 seed. Miami would still, without a doubt in my mind, be a top 5 team in the East. Especially since Bosh would play a bigger role on the team.

I really dont understand the "Take player X off of his team" arguement. If you take that player off of his team, he would need to be replaced with another player. Are you saying replace player x with a player of the same position who is not as good?

For example:
Take Rose off the Bulls, but replace him with Wiliams/Paul/Westbrook/Parker etc... then the Bulls dont lose anything.

But if you take Rose off the Bulls and replace him with Bibby/Jennings/Stucky/Augustine then yea, the Bulls are MUCH MUCH Worse.


.

smiddy012
03-31-2011, 12:55 PM
I swear half of PSD doesn't understand the relation between an individuals stats and the team around him. The Westbrook = Rose "argument" is a textbook example of this.

When people try to define/compare players by isolating their stats independent of the teams around them and their overall success, they fail to realize the concept of a team sport. Fans like to think they can look at a stat sheet and sum up a player without even watching the player and team play, this is ignorant to say the least. Many of the most efficient players in the league are 3rd or 4th options if not bench guys. I can even equate this to football - Peppers was arguably the most dominant DE in the NFL last year, yet you'd think he wasn't even top 10 if you just looked at the stats.

smiddy012
03-31-2011, 01:11 PM
For example:
Take Rose off the Bulls, but replace him with Wiliams/Paul/Westbrook/Parker etc... then the Bulls dont lose anything.
.

I disagree with this. Rose creates for his teammates because of his ability to get to the rim, not necessarily because be is a great distributor. He breaks a defense down with his ball skills and driving as opposed to great distributing. There isn't a PG in the league who's as much of a threat as Rose in the paint. He breaks defenses down then hits the open man as opposed to making a great pass much much more often than not.

thekmp211
03-31-2011, 02:14 PM
anyone read/post the hollinger per diem from today? i think he reads these boards.

Chi City23
03-31-2011, 02:26 PM
I really dont understand the "Take player X off of his team" arguement. If you take that player off of his team, he would need to be replaced with another player. Are you saying replace player x with a player of the same position who is not as good?

For example:
Take Rose off the Bulls, but replace him with Wiliams/Paul/Westbrook/Parker etc... then the Bulls dont lose anything.

But if you take Rose off the Bulls and replace him with Bibby/Jennings/Stucky/Augustine then yea, the Bulls are MUCH MUCH Worse.


.

Totally agree with you! Actually this just proves to me that Rose has to go up against way stronger competition and still succeeds while Lebron/Dwight has a much easier task against lower competition.

The 'take this player and switch him with that player' is such a stupid argument!

tredigs
03-31-2011, 03:04 PM
anyone read/post the hollinger per diem from today? i think he reads these boards.

Nope, you? Synopsis?

Baller1
03-31-2011, 03:09 PM
I disagree with this. Rose creates for his teammates because of his ability to get to the rim, not necessarily because be is a great distributor. He breaks a defense down with his ball skills and driving as opposed to great distributing. There isn't a PG in the league who's as much of a threat as Rose in the paint. He breaks defenses down then hits the open man as opposed to making a great pass much much more often than not.

Tony Parker and Westbrook are just as good, if not better, at getting to the rim.

Gators123
03-31-2011, 03:15 PM
From Hollingers chat....


Damon (Santa Cruz)

The conception that Rose could have been replaced with any of Rondo, CP3, DWill, etc., and the Bulls still would have done as well is bogus. Name one PG the Bulls would trade Rose for. He's the MVP.


John Hollinger
(2:19 PM)

Name one C the Magic would trade Howard for. Name one SG the Lakers would trade Kobe for. Name one SF the Heat would trade LeBron for. Sorry, gotta do better than that. The Bulls would never trade Rose for Westbrook, but if it happened they would be in largely the same place.


Horatio (Chicago)
If not Rose, who is responsible for the Bulls' Association-best point differential?


John Hollinger
(2:26 PM)

Rose is more responsible than any one else on the Bulls ... but the responsibility is a lot more widely distributed than it is on most teams. Like I mentioned in the story, Boozer, Noah and Deng would all be Orlando's second-best player, so it's tough to make the Rose-has-done-it-with-nothing claim. And the bench, of course, has been lights out.


Eileen (Milwaukee)
Why the sudden backlash against Rose being MVP?? No one had a problem with it until the last few weeks, he has gotten any answer, in my opinion he has only gotten better, winning a good chunk of the Bulls games for them. Has that some how hurt his case for MVP because I don't see a reason for the backlash?

John Hollinger
(2:27 PM)
I can't speak for anyone else, but I've always done an MVP column at this time of year. But as far as Rose just getting better ... no. Actually, his stats since the All-Star break are Baron-esque, but the Bulls have been winning anyway.


Jeff (Chicago)
Baron-esque? How can you justify that, when Rose literally scrapped together a win where dropped a 32-17 line, and when he assisted 17 of the team's 24 shots that were NOT made by him!?

John Hollinger
(2:32 PM)
Because there were 19 other games since the break, and he shot bricks in most of them, except for the one where he had ten turnovers. Look, if Rose averaged 30 and 17 then he'd obviously be the MVP, but you can cherry pick the best games from lots of players and make them look like an MVP. But he's at 40.8% since the break and 28.9% on 3s.

thekmp211
03-31-2011, 03:45 PM
Nope, you? Synopsis?

basically that rose has the storyline and captivation of the fans and media in his favor, while dwight is outperforming him in every empirical evaluation but suffers from the plight of the big man (huge expectations due to imposing physical presence).

i could get into it all, but everything he says has been covered on these boards five times, at least. the bulls defense is an elite unit regardless of rose. rose carries a heavy load on offense, sure, but not as heavy as the one dwight carries on both ends of the floor. any argument for rose can be applied more fittingly to howard, except for the storyline. "the derrick rose story, he calls it".

he's just highlighting what some of us have tried to in these threads, that the bulls' rise to elite status is more than just derrick rose. the defense is elite, and roses three best teammates would easily be the second best player on the magic. if the shitstorm of expectations, highlights, media spin ect. didn't drive perception so powerfully, howard would appear as a rather obvious candidate.

i can paste the article if you guys want.

D Roses Bulls
03-31-2011, 03:46 PM
From Hollingers chat....

please don't post hollinger chats to prove a point. he just credited the bulls success the last two years with vinny del negro. the man is clearly delusional. its pretty bad when fans are kicking his *** in chats.

thekmp211
03-31-2011, 03:55 PM
please don't post hollinger chats to prove a point. he just credited the bulls success the last two years with vinny del negro. the man is clearly delusional. its pretty bad when fans are kicking his *** in chats.

kicking his ***? he meant del negros ineptitude made thibs look that much better...relax. its clear you hate hollinger and his take on the game, but just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean he's delusional. or, wrong, for that matter.

D Roses Bulls
03-31-2011, 04:00 PM
kicking his ***? he meant del negros ineptitude made thibs look that much better...relax. its clear you hate hollinger and his take on the game, but just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean he's delusional. or, wrong, for that matter.

he has been getting his *** kicked in all his chats. if you actually read them, you would see that and the man is wrong. first of all, he goes by nothing more than just stats. someone who only uses stats to prove argument is wrong. its okay to use stats in a argument but that is ALL HE USES! stats mean a lot more in baseball than they do in basketball in judging talent. he just said he has seen 4 bulls games in person this year. I bet the rest of the stuff he saw was in highlight reels because he didnt say he watched more games than that. so you gonna make a case against someone after watching 4 games? seriously?

smiddy012
03-31-2011, 04:03 PM
Tony Parker and Westbrook are just as good, if not better, at getting to the rim.

When it comes to defenses defending the paint, neither of them command anywhere near the attention Rose does (not that you've watched his play consistently).

thekmp211
03-31-2011, 04:05 PM
he has been getting his *** kicked in all his chats. if you actually read them, you would see that and the man is wrong. first of all, he goes by nothing more than just stats. someone who only uses stats to prove argument is wrong. its okay to use stats in a argument but that is ALL HE USES! stats mean a lot more in baseball than they do in basketball in judging talent.



lol, i have no idea what you're talking about, i just see a lot of butthurt bulls fans whining to him about his opinion.

--

Joe (NYC)


John, have you watched the Bulls play at all this year? Even one game? I think people would take your MVP talk more seriously if you can tell us you've actually seen Derrick Rose play and not just the highlights on NBATV.
John Hollinger

(3:02 PM)

Seen them in person four times -- Rockets, Magic, Hawks and Blazers. But of course, it's a well-known fact that if you use stats it means you don't watch games, because everyone knows that anyone so interested in the game that they're willing to comb through all this data couldn't possibly like the game enough to watch it, too.

--

you're just being ignorant. no one is arguing that stats are the only methodology for judging a player. but they play an important factor, and as a poster said above they are projections of what is going on on the court. if you don't understand how they are being incorporated into the discussion, then don't argue against them.

D Roses Bulls
03-31-2011, 04:11 PM
lol, i have no idea what you're talking about, i just see a lot of butthurt bulls fans whining to him about his opinion.

--

Joe (NYC)


John, have you watched the Bulls play at all this year? Even one game? I think people would take your MVP talk more seriously if you can tell us you've actually seen Derrick Rose play and not just the highlights on NBATV.
John Hollinger

(3:02 PM)

Seen them in person four times -- Rockets, Magic, Hawks and Blazers. But of course, it's a well-known fact that if you use stats it means you don't watch games, because everyone knows that anyone so interested in the game that they're willing to comb through all this data couldn't possibly like the game enough to watch it, too.

--

you're just being ignorant. no one is arguing that stats are the only methodology for judging a player. but they play an important factor, and as a poster said above they are projections of what is going on on the court. if you don't understand how they are being incorporated into the discussion, then don't argue against them.

butt hurt bulls fans? the bulls are in first place, rose is about to win MVP. I think if anything hollinger is butt hurt that the man he has been down playing for a couple years now is going to win mvp and that just makes his PER system look even worse. and if you dont know what im talkin about its because you dont read his stuff every week. hell, the man had the nuggets last week at number 2 in his power rankings, lol

Gators123
03-31-2011, 04:12 PM
he has been getting his *** kicked in all his chats. if you actually read them, you would see that and the man is wrong. first of all, he goes by nothing more than just stats. someone who only uses stats to prove argument is wrong. its okay to use stats in a argument but that is ALL HE USES! stats mean a lot more in baseball than they do in basketball in judging talent. he just said he has seen 4 bulls games in person this year. I bet the rest of the stuff he saw was in highlight reels because he didnt say he watched more games than that. so you gonna make a case against someone after watching 4 games? seriously?

He said hes been to 4 Bulls games this year in person. How many have you been too?

thekmp211
03-31-2011, 04:16 PM
butt hurt bulls fans? the bulls are in first place, rose is about to win MVP. I think if anything hollinger is butt hurt that the man he has been down playing for a couple years now is going to win mvp and that just makes his PER system look even worse. and if you dont know what im talkin about its because you dont read his stuff every week. hell, the man had the nuggets last week at number 2 in his power rankings, lol

EXACTLY!!! and yet STILL any criticism that comes the guys way is met with a chorus of winging children.

i don't think hollinger is too worried about his reputation or the outcome of the mvp award. and, being that i do read his stuff every DAY, i know that he assesses a wide range of topics with a ton of insight that has nothing to do with PER. the power rankings update automatically, and the nuggets have been one of the best teams in the league over the last month or so of the season.

D Roses Bulls
03-31-2011, 04:33 PM
He said hes been to 4 Bulls games this year in person. How many have you been too?

double that, but my point was he didnt say he has watched a lot of games on tv or even didnt defend the accusation that he mostly watches the highlight reels.

D Roses Bulls
03-31-2011, 04:34 PM
EXACTLY!!! and yet STILL any criticism that comes the guys way is met with a chorus of winging children.

i don't think hollinger is too worried about his reputation or the outcome of the mvp award. and, being that i do read his stuff every DAY, i know that he assesses a wide range of topics with a ton of insight that has nothing to do with PER. the power rankings update automatically, and the nuggets have been one of the best teams in the league over the last month or so of the season.

reading hollingers stuff is like watching fox news. even though it's BS, you just have to see what moronic thing they are going to say today.

nolin
03-31-2011, 04:35 PM
Tony Parker and Westbrook are just as good, if not better, at getting to the rim.now your talkin out of your ***

ttam68
03-31-2011, 04:56 PM
double that, but my point was he didnt say he has watched a lot of games on tv or even didnt defend the accusation that he mostly watches the highlight reels.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-110331


"But watch him play!" (For the record, I've seen him in person four times this season and countless other games on the tube.)

What makes you think he only watches Sportscenter? You just sound overly defensive.

Chronz
03-31-2011, 04:57 PM
Dont take Feeny seriously on anything pertaining to Hollinger, all talk no proof

redwhitenblue
03-31-2011, 04:58 PM
So a few weeks ago Hollinger was praising Rose's MVP year, now he's talking out against it.

Similiarly, a few weeks ago people were bashing Hollinger because he liked Rose's year, now they are saying he knows all because he's against Rose.



Eh, like I said, Rose sucks and doesn't deserve MVP.

But he'll still be the MVP. Get over it.

Chronz
03-31-2011, 05:00 PM
So a few weeks ago Hollinger was praising Rose's MVP year, now he's talking out against it.

Similiarly, a few weeks ago people were bashing Hollinger because he liked Rose's year, now they are saying he knows all because he's against Rose.



Eh, like I said, Rose sucks and doesn't deserve MVP.

But he'll still be the MVP. Get over it.

Im sure its just another one of your clans misunderstandings.

redwhitenblue
03-31-2011, 05:02 PM
Im sure its just another one of your clans misunderstandings.
What's the misunderstanding?

IIRC, multiple people said at the time "Hollinger knows how to create the stats to judge performance, but isn't that good at judging it himself. He's not an analyst. Blah, blah, blah etc"


As I said, enjoy the MVP's final few games of the regular season before what we all hope is a successful postseason as the #1 seed in the EC.

Baller1
03-31-2011, 06:29 PM
When it comes to defenses defending the paint, neither of them command anywhere near the attention Rose does (not that you've watched his play consistently).

Jesus christ, how are you going to tell me I haven't watched him consistently and actually think you watch Westbrook and Parker consistently. Parker has been arguably the best PG in the past decade at getting to the rim, while Westbrook actually finishes at the rim better than Rose. You have no proof that Rose attracts more attention in the paint. Next ridiculous claim?


lol, i have no idea what you're talking about, i just see a lot of butthurt bulls fans whining to him about his opinion.

--

Joe (NYC)


John, have you watched the Bulls play at all this year? Even one game? I think people would take your MVP talk more seriously if you can tell us you've actually seen Derrick Rose play and not just the highlights on NBATV.
John Hollinger

(3:02 PM)

Seen them in person four times -- Rockets, Magic, Hawks and Blazers. But of course, it's a well-known fact that if you use stats it means you don't watch games, because everyone knows that anyone so interested in the game that they're willing to comb through all this data couldn't possibly like the game enough to watch it, too.

--

you're just being ignorant. no one is arguing that stats are the only methodology for judging a player. but they play an important factor, and as a poster said above they are projections of what is going on on the court. if you don't understand how they are being incorporated into the discussion, then don't argue against them.

:laugh2: Hollinger completely **** on him.


[/B]now your talkin out of your ***

Nice response. Read above.


Dont take Feeny seriously on anything pertaining to Hollinger, all talk no proof

Amen.

D Roses Bulls
03-31-2011, 07:14 PM
Dont take Feeny seriously on anything pertaining to Hollinger, all talk no proof

all talk and no proof? wheres all your proof you keep saying you have. I have at least went back and found things in the past that hollinger did say. you keep telling people you have this proof about things you read and saw and never have shown any proof. and I let the outcome be my proof which like ive said, if you go back and look in my history, I am usually pretty damn spot on with my predictions and evaluations of players.

BcEuAbRsS
03-31-2011, 07:16 PM
Jesus christ, how are you going to tell me I haven't watched him consistently and actually think you watch Westbrook and Parker consistently. Parker has been arguably the best PG in the past decade at getting to the rim, while Westbrook actually finishes at the rim better than Rose. You have no proof that Rose attracts more attention in the paint. Next ridiculous claim?


That part is 100% true... the rest I cant really comment on...

D Roses Bulls
03-31-2011, 07:16 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-110331



What makes you think he only watches Sportscenter? You just sound overly defensive.

what makes me think he only watches highlight clips most of the time. cause he never talks about anything more than stats. that's why...... people who use ONLY stats in every single argument do not watch the games.

BcEuAbRsS
03-31-2011, 07:20 PM
what makes me think he only watches highlight clips most of the time. cause he never talks about anything more than stats. that's why...... people who use ONLY stats in every single argument do not watch the games.

I watch as many games as I possibly can (work and school make it tough)... And I love stats... stats alone have proved many people wrong on their mystical idea that Rose is still a bad defender... stats dont lie... just my personal opinion...

D Roses Bulls
03-31-2011, 07:26 PM
I watch as many games as I possibly can (work and school make it tough)... And I love stats... stats alone have proved many people wrong on their mystical idea that Rose is still a bad defender... stats dont lie... just my personal opinion...

see that's the misconception people have. I'm not saying you, but some people think I hate stats. I do not hate stats, but you can not rely on stats in basketball no where near as much as you can in baseball in determining a players worth and value and ect. I mean I know im not the only one to see a player lose teammates, or play in a different system, or play with better teammates and ect and their stats go up or down. People wanna rely on stats too much and you just can't. look at the knicks when they were signing and trading for players like marbury, zach randolph, and ect..... on paper they had guys who put up big numbers in the past, but on the floor, they didnt. stats can be very deceiving and no where tell the big picture of the impact a player might be really making.

tredigs
03-31-2011, 07:32 PM
see that's the misconception people have. I'm not saying you, but some people think I hate stats. I do not hate stats, but you can not rely on stats in basketball no where near as much as you can in baseball in determining a players worth and value and ect. I mean I know im not the only one to see a player lose teammates, or play in a different system, or play with better teammates and ect and their stats go up or down. People wanna rely on stats too much and you just can't. look at the knicks when they were signing and trading for players like marbury, zach randolph, and ect..... on paper they had guys who put up big numbers in the past, but on the floor, they didnt. stats can be very deceiving and no where tell the big picture of the impact a player might be really making.

If you honestly in your heart believe that you've seen and/or been to 1/10th of the basketball games that Hollinger has (this encompasses ALL teams, not just your favorite), then you're even more delusional than we already know.

"We" being any fan here who watches all teams, and takes both stats (especially those scary advanced ones you're not partial to) and intangibles from watching the games into account.

TO to the CHI
03-31-2011, 07:55 PM
what makes me think he only watches highlight clips most of the time. cause he never talks about anything more than stats. that's why...... people who use ONLY stats in every single argument do not watch the games.

Honestly, you are embarrassing yourself here. Many people who watch a ton of games rely only on stats in arguments because they like objective measures, not because they don't watch games.

And I have been to way more Bulls games than you this year if that somehow enhances my credibility.

Baller1
03-31-2011, 08:20 PM
:laugh2:

D Roses Bulls... Just stop dude. How can you honestly believe that Hollinger watches no games?! That's pathetic.

Gators123
03-31-2011, 08:32 PM
BTW, Whats the point of the poll?


abe_froman, BcEuAbRsS, BigEasy1323, BoozerYells, Bullsfan22, Bulls_fan90, Chippers, chitown815, ChitownSports16, ChI_ShIzzLe, Clocian, Cubs Win, D Roses Bulls, D-Block21-Chito, DaBears1127, disgruntledbull, Dnovakovic099, ellesmeire, flclfanman, Furymaker, haggis, Hanamichi23, jpro611, jtsunami, KHinrich12, kingbrentg, Lu's Dynasty, metsbulls1025, MJ-BULLS, nitric, nolin, northsider, ramsizzle, ROSE=TITLE, StriveGreatness, swirl54, TheRunKiller, TO to the CHI, WoodsyRaps, Yagyu

As of right now 38 of the 40 votes for Rose are from Bulls fans :eyebrow:

Baller1
03-31-2011, 08:38 PM
[/B]now your talkin out of your ***

I hope you're watching Parker in this game right now.

Baller1
03-31-2011, 08:39 PM
BTW, Whats the point of the poll?



As of right now 38 of the 40 votes for Rose are from Bulls fans :eyebrow:

:laugh2:

The Jokemaker
03-31-2011, 09:01 PM
I hope you're watching Parker in this game right now.

Parker is a great player, that shot he has, the tear drop I believe it's called?, is fantastic.

D Roses Bulls
03-31-2011, 09:09 PM
:laugh2:

D Roses Bulls... Just stop dude. How can you honestly believe that Hollinger watches no games?! That's pathetic.

oh come on now, obviously I made typing errors, I do not believe hollinger watches NO GAMES, but I believe he doesn't watch as many as he claims. I believe he watches more highlight clips than ACTUAL games

The Jokemaker
03-31-2011, 09:11 PM
oh come on now, obviously I made typing errors, I do not believe hollinger watches NO GAMES, but I believe he doesn't watch as many as he claims. I believe he watches more highlight clips than ACTUAL games

I've heard Mel Kiper has never even see a full football game, only highlights. These so called "analysts" aka con artists. Claim to watch sports and games and offer insight. Truth be known they spend it watching Real Housewives of Atlanta. Hmph!

D Roses Bulls
03-31-2011, 09:14 PM
Honestly, you are embarrassing yourself here. Many people who watch a ton of games rely only on stats in arguments because they like objective measures, not because they don't watch games.

And I have been to way more Bulls games than you this year if that somehow enhances my credibility.

I embarrassed myself because I made a typing error and really if you feel embarrassed on a unknown sports website than you need to get out more. If you honestly think I meant he has watched no games, than your pretty damn gullible. and I dont care what many people do. A lot of people on here were wrong about dwight howard and are now on his nuts, a lot of people were wrong here about rose, noah, and ect and are now just finding it out and again I am not talking about all stats. I'm mostly talking about those advance statistics. by the way, It doesnt matter how many games you have been too, I was answering a question for someone. going to games doesnt mean crap, if you watch them on tv and analyze them like that.

D Roses Bulls
03-31-2011, 09:16 PM
I've heard Mel Kiper has never even see a full football game, only highlights. These so called "analysts" aka con artists. Claim to watch sports and games and offer insight. Truth be known they spend it watching Real Housewives of Atlanta. Hmph!

good point and even david thorpe who people see as this expert on college basketball players even says in his chats he doesn't really watch college games at all. he just looks at some of the film.

godolphins
03-31-2011, 09:24 PM
BTW, Whats the point of the poll?



As of right now 38 of the 40 votes for Rose are from Bulls fans :eyebrow:
:laugh:

D Roses Bulls
03-31-2011, 09:24 PM
If you honestly in your heart believe that you've seen and/or been to 1/10th of the basketball games that Hollinger has (this encompasses ALL teams, not just your favorite), then you're even more delusional than we already know.

"We" being any fan here who watches all teams, and takes both stats (especially those scary advanced ones you're not partial to) and intangibles from watching the games into account.

I'm delusional according to you, but I'm right on so many predictions and evaluations of players :rolleyes:. good one kid..... you really got me. again, your one of those people on here that like to pretend that they are smart because you take your time to sound "rational" and like you know what you are talking. I could be mean, but im not going to and keep going. all im going to say is you do not take intangibles into account. ive never seen you once even use the word. and i never claimed to have been to more games than hollinger, i was responding to a question, but i guess you couldnt realize that part. when something you say comes true or you get something right, than respond to a post i made, but because you can google doesn't make you smart dude. until than, just dont respond to my posts cause seriously i am tryna be calm with you, and realize your only 18, but your pushing your luck.

dwadefan03
03-31-2011, 09:28 PM
dwight

tredigs
03-31-2011, 09:30 PM
I'm delusional according to you, but I'm right on so many predictions and evaluations of players :rolleyes:. good one kid..... you really got me. again, your one of those people on here that like to pretend that they are smart because you take your time to sound "rational" and like you know what you are talking. I could be mean, but im not going to and keep going. all im going to say is you do not take intangibles into account. ive never seen you once even use the word. and i never claimed to have been to more games than hollinger, i was responding to a question, but i guess you couldnt realize that part. when something you say comes true or you get something right, than respond to a post i made, but because you can google doesn't make you smart dude. until than, just dont respond to my posts cause seriously i am tryna be calm with you, and realize your only 18, but your pushing your luck.

I'm 26, "kid". I love your quoting of the phrase about me "trying to sound 'rational'", though. You are comedy gold for all of is. Never leave. And please, "be mean". And we're all curious what more nostradamic insight you have for us, or what you've ever called in the first place?

finalverse
03-31-2011, 09:46 PM
This one dude has some sort of fetish in that he wants Westbrook to always be on equal ground with Rose.

Lolwut?
03-31-2011, 09:50 PM
Not from me. still doesn't change the fact he is a douche bag

this comment makes you a douchebag......... douchebag..

justinnum1
03-31-2011, 10:01 PM
I'm 26, "kid". I love your quoting of the phrase about me "trying to sound 'rational'", though. You are comedy gold for all of is. Never leave. And please, "be mean". And we're all curious what more nostradamic insight you have for us, or what you've ever called in the first place?

:burn:

TO to the CHI
03-31-2011, 10:14 PM
I embarrassed myself because I made a typing error and really if you feel embarrassed on a unknown sports website than you need to get out more. If you honestly think I meant he has watched no games, than your pretty damn gullible. and I dont care what many people do. A lot of people on here were wrong about dwight howard and are now on his nuts, a lot of people were wrong here about rose, noah, and ect and are now just finding it out and again I am not talking about all stats. I'm mostly talking about those advance statistics. by the way, It doesnt matter how many games you have been too, I was answering a question for someone. going to games doesnt mean crap, if you watch them on tv and analyze them like that.

It wasn't a typo. You made a blanket statement, realized it was ridiculous, then Concorde a story about typos. Reread your comment that I quoted and try to explain what part was a typo. Just calm down. Seriously.

godolphins
03-31-2011, 10:21 PM
Dwight
Co-sign

BcEuAbRsS
03-31-2011, 10:30 PM
BTW, Whats the point of the poll?



As of right now 38 of the 40 votes for Rose are from Bulls fans :eyebrow:

And 6 of the 9 that voted for Lebron are Heat fans... Bulls fans dont hold a MVP vote... that said, I dont get ur point...

h2r09
03-31-2011, 10:48 PM
you know what i find funny? how in threads comparing the bulls to any of the top teams the best argument they have is that they have derrick rose and such a great player in noah to go along with deng and boozer and then the best bench in the league, yet in threads about the mvp they do nothing but put down their supporting cast and act like he is playing with guys with down syndrome chewing on the scorers table.

this entire site is completely ridiculous how it is just about "how can i twist what i say to support my argument". there is no sense of perspective or reality in any poster on a consistent basis.

BcEuAbRsS
03-31-2011, 10:52 PM
you know what i find funny? how in threads comparing the bulls to any of the top teams the best argument they have is that they have derrick rose and such a great player in noah to go along with deng and boozer and then the best bench in the league, yet in threads about the mvp they do nothing but put down their supporting cast and act like he is playing with guys with down syndrome chewing on the scorers table.

this entire site is completely ridiculous how it is just about "how can i twist what i say to support my argument". there is no sense of perspective or reality in any poster on a consistent basis.

I dont personally put down any of the Bulls players but you should also note that when it comes to MVP ppl say the Bulls are stacked... but as far as winning a chip they arent all that good...

h2r09
03-31-2011, 10:54 PM
I dont personally put down any of the Bulls players but you should also note that when it comes to MVP ppl say the Bulls are stacked... but as far as winning a chip they arent all that good...

which is just why this site is ridiculous. people can say 1 thing in 1 thread and completely contradict it in another and nobody would notice so it just makes for 1 giant circle in every thread and nothing ever gets really debated because there is no accountability.

theheatles
03-31-2011, 10:55 PM
BTW, Whats the point of the poll?



As of right now 38 of the 40 votes for Rose are from Bulls fans :eyebrow:


And 6 of the 9 that voted for Lebron are Heat fans..

so thats lebron 3 rose 2 with rational objective fans...all hail the king, LeBron for MVP!

Lolwut?
03-31-2011, 11:02 PM
I'm delusional according to you, but I'm right on so many predictions and evaluations of players :rolleyes:. good one kid..... you really got me. again, your one of those people on here that like to pretend that they are smart because you take your time to sound "rational" and like you know what you are talking. I could be mean, but im not going to and keep going. all im going to say is you do not take intangibles into account. ive never seen you once even use the word. and i never claimed to have been to more games than hollinger, i was responding to a question, but i guess you couldnt realize that part. when something you say comes true or you get something right, than respond to a post i made, but because you can google doesn't make you smart dude. until than, just dont respond to my posts cause seriously i am tryna be calm with you, and realize your only 18, but your pushing your luck.

Holy crap lebron has nothing on you on the douchebag scale.... can you be anymore arrogant DAMN !

finalverse
03-31-2011, 11:09 PM
you know what i find funny? how in threads comparing the bulls to any of the top teams the best argument they have is that they have derrick rose and such a great player in noah to go along with deng and boozer and then the best bench in the league, yet in threads about the mvp they do nothing but put down their supporting cast and act like he is playing with guys with down syndrome chewing on the scorers table.Actually that's not at all how it went. Bulls fans looked at Rose leading the Bulls to the top record in the East and beating all the elite teams and started suggesting that Rose should be the MVP. The haters started crying and started comparing the current Bulls roster to the great rosters of years past (Birds Celtics, Magic's Lakers and Jordan's Bulls).

Bulls fans started laughing like "uhhh yea we're alright but lol if you think our team is this super team". We know we're good, you don't get to 1st in East without being good but it's not like our team is this super team and the Heat, Magic, Thunder, Celtics, Laker have scrubs gracing their locker room. Haters gonna hate....

Baller1
03-31-2011, 11:19 PM
Actually that's not at all how it went. Bulls fans looked at Rose leading the Bulls to the top record in the East and beating all the elite teams and started suggesting that Rose should be the MVP. The haters started crying and started comparing the current Bulls roster to the great rosters of years past (Birds Celtics, Magic's Lakers and Jordan's Bulls).

Bulls fans started laughing like "uhhh yea we're alright but lol if you think our team is this super team". We know we're good, you don't get to 1st in East without being good but it's not like our team is this super team and the Heat, Magic, Thunder, Celtics, Laker have scrubs gracing their locker room. Haters gonna hate....

Ummm no, don't make **** up. The claims that have been made are that Chicago has some of the best team defense of the last decade (up there with the '08 Celtics).

SteBO
03-31-2011, 11:24 PM
Ummm no, don't make **** up. The claims that have been made are that Chicago has some of the best team defense of the last decade (up there with the '08 Celtics).
:laugh: Your sig. I can't help but even chuckle at your signature man, really. And yes, some Bulls fans have obnoxious while seriously overrating their team, but at the same time there are those that seriously underrate their team, and make false claims that they can't even prove. It goes both ways.

D Roses Bulls
03-31-2011, 11:35 PM
I'm 26, "kid". I love your quoting of the phrase about me "trying to sound 'rational'", though. You are comedy gold for all of is. Never leave. And please, "be mean". And we're all curious what more nostradamic insight you have for us, or what you've ever called in the first place?

26? :rolleyes: yeah okay......... and just go back into my history if you wanna see what ive called.

D Roses Bulls
03-31-2011, 11:37 PM
this comment makes you a douchebag......... douchebag..

im sorry if i made fun of your boyfriend and you cant take it.

D Roses Bulls
03-31-2011, 11:38 PM
:burn:

explain to me how that was a burn? and he is lying about his age.

D Roses Bulls
03-31-2011, 11:44 PM
Holy crap lebron has nothing on you on the douchebag scale.... can you be anymore arrogant DAMN !

Unlike most people on here, I dont care what I look like on here.

Chronz
04-01-2011, 12:11 AM
oh come on now, obviously I made typing errors, I do not believe hollinger watches NO GAMES, but I believe he doesn't watch as many as he claims. I believe he watches more highlight clips than ACTUAL games
LOL thats because you have nothing to base it on, how could he not watch the games when he regularly tweets what hes watching? Tell us how many games does Hollinger watch and whats the ratio of pretend watching to actual watching, I would LOVE to see you back this up.



all talk and no proof? wheres all your proof you keep saying you have. I have at least went back and found things in the past that hollinger did say. you keep telling people you have this proof about things you read and saw and never have shown any proof. and I let the outcome be my proof which like ive said, if you go back and look in my history, I am usually pretty damn spot on with my predictions and evaluations of players.
Any and all conversations we've had about Hollinger have led to zero backing/findings by you.

I disagree with the rest of your opinion, anyone who knows so little about stats isnt going to have a great enough basis for comparison. But thats just me, dont get booty hurt now.

smiddy012
04-01-2011, 12:28 AM
Lebron is such an idiot - him and all the Bulls fans should get a room and gangbang the **** out of Rose, thats how much they want to suck him off. I don't get how Miami fans stomach biased opinions like Lebrons, I mean if you think Rose deserves MVP, you're in the 90th percentile... of retardedness.


I'm not going to be an idiot and stereotype a large group of people because of a specific trait they share in common - whenever anybody says "Bulls fans are all this" or "Miami fans are this" or "you people," those are dead give aways for discriminatory opinions - lumping an entire population or group of individuals under negative connotations because of the actions of a handfull is pretty much the epitome of human stupidity and self-destruction.


That said, if you are a Heat fan, you either believe in Lebron's word or you don't. Either you agree with him that Rose deserves to be the front-runner of the MVP race, or you don't believe/respect the words that come out of your best player's (and leader's) mouth. The only other possibility is that he is playing politics - which is very plausible when you consider how he handled free agency (aka lying to Cleveland/leading them on) - in which case he is not just simply a liar, he is not just simply saying what he feels is truth, he is in fact telling the people what he thinks they want to hear (which is not exactly the manly thing to do). Its one of those three, deal with it. It's not PSDs fault Lebron felt the need to publicly crown Rose MVP, the only person responsible for Lebron is Lebron.


And in case anyone didn't notice the hint of sarcasm in the first paragraph - it is meant to sound that absurd.

Bullsfan22
04-01-2011, 02:34 AM
"down goes the mvp thread"

D Roses Bulls
04-01-2011, 03:21 AM
LOL thats because you have nothing to base it on, how could he not watch the games when he regularly tweets what hes watching? Tell us how many games does Hollinger watch and whats the ratio of pretend watching to actual watching, I would LOVE to see you back this up.



Any and all conversations we've had about Hollinger have led to zero backing/findings by you.

I disagree with the rest of your opinion, anyone who knows so little about stats isnt going to have a great enough basis for comparison. But thats just me, dont get booty hurt now.

chronz with the so called "logic" but no proof as always :rolleyes: and I know so little bout stats, lol....... yeah you know me....... like i said, if i know so little bout bball than how come ive called so many things right? i guess i am just one lucky *** guy

Jewelz0376
04-01-2011, 03:32 AM
chronz with the so called "logic" but no proof as always :rolleyes: and I know so little bout stats, lol....... yeah you know me....... like i said, if i know so little bout bball than how come ive called so many things right? i guess i am just one lucky *** guy

I think i've read you say this on these boards at least 10 times...What are some of these "things" you predicted...Not saying you haven't..I'm just curious

D Roses Bulls
04-01-2011, 03:40 AM
I think i've read you say this on these boards at least 10 times...What are some of these "things" you predicted...Not saying you haven't..I'm just curious

well its in my history if you want to fact check, but orlando going to the finals 2 years ago when everyone said i was crazy. howard getting a offensive game this year and everything else bout his game that everyone was putting down in the off season. that rose would be a top 2-3 pg within 2 years and that he wasnt crazy about his "why can i be mvp" speech. i was right about joakim noah two years ago when almost every bulls fans hated him. I was also dead on about brook lopez as well and how overrated he was and thats just for example, ive got a couple others i cant think of at the moment as well and every single one of those, i was called "delusional" on as well. like i said, if you dont believe me, its in my history on psd. I really do watch a lot of basketball, its crazy

Jewelz0376
04-01-2011, 04:07 AM
well its in my history if you want to fact check, but orlando going to the finals 2 years ago when everyone said i was crazy. howard getting a offensive game this year and everything else bout his game that everyone was putting down in the off season. that rose would be a top 2-3 pg within 2 years and that he wasnt crazy about his "why can i be mvp" speech. i was right about joakim noah two years ago when almost every bulls fans hated him. I was also dead on about brook lopez as well and how overrated he was and thats just for example, ive got a couple others i cant think of at the moment as well and every single one of those, i was called "delusional" on as well. like i said, if you dont believe me, its in my history on psd. I really do watch a lot of basketball, its crazy

Lol I don't need to check...that would be doin way too much... I'll just take your word for it...I was just curious thats all....

D Roses Bulls
04-01-2011, 04:10 AM
Lol I don't need to check...that would be doin way too much... I'll just take your word for it...I was just curious thats all....

its cool man. I dont blame ya. I just think its funny that people call the people who make the "outrageous" claims according to them crazy, but end up being right when those people havent predicted or got anything really right before and like to pretend they are smart cause they know how to use google.

basketfan4life
04-01-2011, 06:12 AM
i

The Jokemaker
04-01-2011, 06:22 AM
To me, it's clear the MVP is Kobe. Closely following is Howard at 2 and Rose at 3. A couple weeks ago I had Rose as MVP but lately I feel it's Kobe or Dwight first. This is not a knock against Rose but rather simply how the others have been playing.

basketfan4life
04-01-2011, 07:43 AM
Looking at standings, i don't think Dwight has a shot...For me he is the best performer of the year don't get me wrong, but Orlando's position hurts him a lot. And LeBron really has no shot because of the same reasons, having dwade and bosh as wingmen and being 3rd in the east is no good either...

i think it is only between Rose and Kobe...

HesterTrain
04-01-2011, 08:02 AM
^Plus you gotta add in the suspensions and Technicals for Howard.

tredigs
04-01-2011, 08:37 AM
LOL thats because you have nothing to base it on, how could he not watch the games when he regularly tweets what hes watching? Tell us how many games does Hollinger watch and whats the ratio of pretend watching to actual watching, I would LOVE to see you back this up.



I think we can all agree that "D Roses Bulls" doesn't like Hollinger - or any other stathead - simply because he does not and can not understand the way they process the games. And that's fine. He's a unique flower, and we'll leave that at that.



explain to me how that was a burn? and he is lying about his age.

Funny, I didn't think my actual age would be too "advanced" a stat for you to grasp and consider BS ala anything Hollinger writes.

D Roses Bulls' likely rebuttal to that comment: "I don't need to see his age! I WATCH TREDIGS LIFE! EFF STATS AND EFF YEW!".

Lolwut?
04-01-2011, 08:59 AM
Unlike most people on here, I dont care what I look like on here.

but you"re hating on lebron for being a douchebag when you yourself are no better.... you guys have alot in common you shouldn't be hating on him, some of your comments are comparable to when he talks about his stats.

Lolwut?
04-01-2011, 09:03 AM
well its in my history if you want to fact check, but orlando going to the finals 2 years ago when everyone said i was crazy. howard getting a offensive game this year and everything else bout his game that everyone was putting down in the off season. that rose would be a top 2-3 pg within 2 years and that he wasnt crazy about his "why can i be mvp" speech. i was right about joakim noah two years ago when almost every bulls fans hated him. I was also dead on about brook lopez as well and how overrated he was and thats just for example, ive got a couple others i cant think of at the moment as well and every single one of those, i was called "delusional" on as well. like i said, if you dont believe me, its in my history on psd. I really do watch a lot of basketball, its crazy

you should buy a "check my stats" t-shirt your sounding like the guy you despise more and more.

Lolwut?
04-01-2011, 09:06 AM
^Plus you gotta add in the suspensions and Technicals for Howard.

lolwut?

JNA17
04-01-2011, 09:30 AM
IMO i don't understand how people can say Howard at all know. Sure he probably preformed the best this year but just like what others have said already, the magic regressed compared to last season followed by the team is in the 4th seed especially after losing to the knicks and hawks the last two games recently, and he's not exactly a charmer with those techs lol.

I'm not really saying anything different then what most others have said already so really I'm just repeating it, but it needed to be and it's the truth, Dwight has no shot at all. Lebron for very similar reasons, a team that really underachieved this year. All of this happening while Rose and Kobe are preforming just as good if not better and their team is actually winning.

Bullsfan22
04-01-2011, 10:38 AM
it's between kobe and rose

thekmp211
04-01-2011, 12:45 PM
jeez, look what i started..

chitown815
04-01-2011, 12:54 PM
It is Rose, Kobe is having a great 2nd half but look how many games boozer and/or Noah have missed this year, but yes

Rose
Kobe
Lebron (better numbers on better team than dwight
wade

4 seeds dont get mvps

theheatles
04-01-2011, 01:43 PM
kobe might get it over rose for redemption of his snubbing when he averaged 35

macc
04-01-2011, 01:43 PM
http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/04/01/race-to-the-mvp-week-23/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1



Good article on the MVP debate

northsider
04-01-2011, 01:58 PM
I hope Rose doesn't win it we don't have to deal with a million crying threads on here about an individual accolade.

I am actually kind of pulling for Kobe to win it if it isn't going to be Rose.

thekmp211
04-01-2011, 02:10 PM
no one's going to cry. alright that's probably a lie. but honestly, it's a legitimate debate that spans over a lot of different areas of the sport. it's a snapshot of how fans view the league, right or wrong, over the course of a season and even multiple seasons. the debate between statistical dominance and winning, and how that balance is struck...that's sports and competition at its most fundamental level.

it's the absolute statements that people are so inclined to embrace that often instigate the most hate from respective sides. i try to avoid them, but its hard when you're talking about a single award given to one player. and if i get into it, i at least try to support my case factually. my opinions out there x20 probably at this point, although the insertion of kobe into the conversation is interesting.

kArSoN RyDaH
04-01-2011, 02:16 PM
Kobe=MVP

Chronz
04-01-2011, 02:26 PM
chronz with the so called "logic" but no proof as always :rolleyes: and I know so little bout stats, lol....... yeah you know me....... like i said, if i know so little bout bball than how come ive called so many things right? i guess i am just one lucky *** guy
Because no matter what I think of a person, my opinion of him will be trumped by his own assessment. You can think your right about whatever vague concept you want to imagine, but Im just going by my own personal observations in our encounters. I really dont believe much of what you say, and not just about basketball either, but how old you claim to be. As irrelevant as it may be, I think your a compulsive liar who seeks praise.

Still I can appreciate your conviction and persistence, like a deformed mini-me. Dont take offense, I just find myself questioning your motives and objectivity

kArSoN RyDaH
04-01-2011, 02:30 PM
Seriously Chronz, you are annoying.

Baller1
04-01-2011, 04:22 PM
Seriously Chronz, you're not annoying.

Sadds The Gr8
04-01-2011, 04:28 PM
Seriously Chronz, you are annoying.


Seriously Chronz, you're not annoying.

lol he mad

D Roses Bulls
04-01-2011, 05:56 PM
I am just going to stop talking about all of this till the winner is announced. no point anymore.

k.smith904
04-01-2011, 06:14 PM
I wonder how much time it took him to utilize all those big words, so he can appear to know what he's talking about.

next time just say "I'm a troll," it's a quicker road to the same conclusion we've all made about you.

D Roses Bulls
04-01-2011, 08:47 PM
I really hate to break my word, but had to post this. I dont know who the people who said it, but a couple people said how could rose win mvp without winning player of the month? well here ya go. he just won eastern conference player of the month. Now for real, I will not post in this thread anymore till the award is announced.

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/sports/cbsports-rose-named-eastern-conference-player-of-month-20110401,0,7851118.story

Bullsfan22
04-01-2011, 08:49 PM
I really hate to break my word, but had to post this. I dont know who the people who said it, but a couple people said how could rose win mvp without winning player of the month? well here ya go. he just won eastern conference player of the month. Now for real, I will not post in this thread anymore till the award is announced.

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/sports/cbsports-rose-named-eastern-conference-player-of-month-20110401,0,7851118.story

:laugh2: homer

Lolwut?
04-01-2011, 10:21 PM
either way you spin it he's one of the weakest mvp's in a long time not a knock on him causse its the kids 3rd season only he just so happen to have his breakout year sort of speak when the nba was looking for a new guinea pig

they had durant winning it before the season started even going as far as guaranteeing it by some media outlets... couple months in they pegged rose it didn't really matter what happened next rose was winning it for months now.

to conclude i don't mind rose winning it he's a good kid and playing well this year

northsider
04-01-2011, 10:27 PM
either way you spin it he's one of the weakest mvp's in a long time not a knock on him causse its the kids 3rd season only he just so happen to have his breakout year sort of speak when the nba was looking for a new guinea pig

they had durant winning it before the season started even going as far as guaranteeing it by some media outlets... couple months in they pegged rose it didn't really matter what happened next rose was winning it for months now.

to conclude i don't mind rose winning it he's a good kid and playing well this year



I really feel like that is now the approach you have to take to it. Okay so maybe he isn't the most deserving of players but, he is more then likely going to win it. At least he isn't some terrible guy or terrible player.

I mean do people want an apology from him for being a hype man for the NBA you cannot fault the kid. It will be a shame when the fact he had a pretty damn good 3rd year, took over a team as the leader, helped lead them to 1st seed, and improved his game pretty well and all the while being 22. I just think it is sad that the MVP award is now going to actual overshadow what he has done cause people won't appreciate it cause it was giving the highest accolade.

I think if he wasn't winning it or going too people would be able to enjoy his game as well as his season allot more.

godolphins
04-02-2011, 02:11 AM
Chris Palmer

A west coast GM tells me, "Rose will probably win the MVP but LeBron deserves it."

By the way I think we are all forgetting Kobe Bryant, he is making a strong late push with his team having a 17-1 record since the All star break and can possibly finish with the best record in the Nba. The question is: Is it too late?

godolphins
04-02-2011, 02:14 AM
I really hate to break my word, but had to post this. I dont know who the people who said it, but a couple people said how could rose win mvp without winning player of the month? well here ya go. he just won eastern conference player of the month. Now for real, I will not post in this thread anymore till the award is announced.

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/sports/cbsports-rose-named-eastern-conference-player-of-month-20110401,0,7851118.story

Say " thank you David Stern" :D
http://www.redsarmy.com/.a/6a01156f2c3287970c012876524fbb970c-450wi

smiddy012
04-02-2011, 08:39 AM
Rose is more valuable than Lebron to his team this regular season. Many Heat fans can't get over this fact, they won't even listen to their star player - shows you how much many Heat fans think of Lebrons word....

This thread is left to Miami bandwagoners, everyone else knows it's Rose. Dwight is the only one who could possibly be getting snubbed here.

basketfan4life
04-02-2011, 09:03 AM
Kobe is probably going to win it...don't be shocked when it is announced...

tredigs
04-02-2011, 09:55 AM
Kobe is probably going to win it...don't be shocked when it is announced...

He's more likely to finish outside the top three than he is to win it, but this Spurs meltdown/Lakers (obvious?) resurgence is an intriguing storyline if they finish on top of the west. But honestly, it's too late for Kobe to earn true MVP consideration. For right or wrong, the voters have been voicing their mind on who their MVP is for months.

And honestly - wild chucking issues aside - I think at this point I'd probably vote for Rose too (I said I'd take Durant/Dirk/Howard if their teams finished top two, but it doesn't look likely). If there was another player with an OBVIOUS MVP season (the players are there to an extent, but the teams aren't following. And in Kobe's case, he just flat out hasn't been consistently dominant) then he'd take it away from Rose's shaky 2nd half in a heartbeat. BUT, that just hasn't been the case, and the Bulls are strong enough top to bottom that they've still been winning. And sometimes that has flat out been due to Rose closing games, which the fans/voters LOVE, and rightfully so.

Bullsfan22
04-02-2011, 10:15 AM
I kind of feel like Rose's age could factor in MVP considerations. LA has the media outlets to sway opinions at the last minute, especially if the Lakers keep winning and Kobe explodes and have a couple of monster games.

ecorrea
04-02-2011, 10:16 AM
Great article by the sports guy... Begining of the article shows pretty logically why drose could win MVP. Also rose has slightly better gm than Kobe last night. I feel like at this point in the season every gm is gonna count.

http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=6280213

ecorrea
04-02-2011, 10:22 AM
Not to mention the 4th guy in NBA history goin for 25 and 8, and let's not forget his bulls are also 55 and 20, also tryin to catch the spurs

ecorrea
04-02-2011, 10:25 AM
Ok scratch that stat. I know I saw something similar

h2r09
04-02-2011, 10:26 AM
gotta figure the league gave rose the player of the month solely for having that on his resume for the mvp. look at the march stats between lebron and rose.

Rose:
25.6 ppg on 41.2%, 1.1 spg, 7 apg, 3 rpg, 29% from 3 and he is attempting 6 3's per game in march

Lebron:
28 ppg on 58%, 1.1 spg, 6.1 apg, 7 rpg, 30% from 3 only attempting 3 per game in march.

tredigs
04-02-2011, 10:35 AM
gotta figure the league gave rose the player of the month solely for having that on his resume for the mvp. look at the march stats between lebron and rose.

Rose:
25.6 ppg on 41.2%, 1.1 spg, 7 apg, 3 rpg, 29% from 3 and he is attempting 6 3's per game in march

Lebron:
28 ppg on 58%, 1.1 spg, 6.1 apg, 7 rpg, 30% from 3 only attempting 3 per game in march.

It's kind of funny. Rose has been chucking MAJOR not just in March, but for months. The kid has to figure out his shot selection if they want to compete - that won't fly in a playoff series.

h2r09
04-02-2011, 10:43 AM
It's kind of funny. Rose has been chucking MAJOR not just in March, but for months. The kid has to figure out his shot selection if they want to compete - that won't fly in a playoff series.

hes gonna turn out like d wade which is not a good thing in that way. d wade shoots way to many 3's despite the fact that he can never be stopped going to the rim. its just unnecessary for him to be shooting as many 3's as he does.

godolphins
04-02-2011, 10:51 AM
gotta figure the league gave rose the player of the month solely for having that on his resume for the mvp. look at the march stats between lebron and rose.

Rose:
25.6 ppg on 41.2%, 1.1 spg, 7 apg, 3 rpg, 29% from 3 and he is attempting 6 3's per game in march

Lebron:
28 ppg on 58%, 1.1 spg, 6.1 apg, 7 rpg, 30% from 3 only attempting 3 per game in march.

I posted this yesterday

Lebron and Howard were better option for the East, I guess David Stern had something to do with this since it wouldn't seem right for the MVP to not have one player of the month award

We all know the Nba is rigged so saying something like this is not totally out of nowhere

tredigs
04-02-2011, 10:52 AM
hes gonna turn out like d wade which is not a good thing in that way. d wade shoots way to many 3's despite the fact that he can never be stopped going to the rim. its just unnecessary for him to be shooting as many 3's as he does.

Really it's a bigger problem than D. Wade ever had with the three. Wade never even approached NEAR 2 attempts per game until he was 27 (never shot more than 3 and a half), and at this point Rose is throwing up 5-6 a game (and shooting 29% over the past few months). It's a MAJOR hole in his game that he doesn't want to accept that he has at this point - it looks like he's trying to figure it out on the court.

To each their own, but like I said, that won't fly in the playoffs. He needs to figure out how to make that offense more efficient, and chucking threes isn't the answer.

edit:


I posted this yesterday


We all know the Nba is rigged so saying something like this is not totally out of nowhere
I love when people say this **** and continue to follow the game to the point they do. And are you incapable of separating the difference between "some people have tried to rig games and 'the game is rigged as a whole'"?

I'm not going to bother getting into it further here, but you people are comedy.

theheatles
04-02-2011, 11:03 AM
gotta figure the league gave rose the player of the month solely for having that on his resume for the mvp. look at the march stats between lebron and rose.

Rose:
25.6 ppg on 41.2%, 1.1 spg, 7 apg, 3 rpg, 29% from 3 and he is attempting 6 3's per game in march

Lebron:
28 ppg on 58%, 1.1 spg, 6.1 apg, 7 rpg, 30% from 3 only attempting 3 per game in march.

it's laughable they gave it to rose...lebrons stats and play trumps roses for march but i think wade should have won eastern conference player of the month...wade should have won player of the week each week this month...

Wade:
26.6 ppg on 48.6%, 1.7 spg, 1.8 bpg, 5.0 apg, 5.3 rpg, 31.9% from 3 in march...26 steals 27 blocks in 1 month, wades a stud...it's a joke that rose won player of the month, the writers are trying to do all that they can to justify rose of winning the mvp, basically rose winning this month guarantees rose winning the MVP

fin_frenzy_84
04-02-2011, 11:09 AM
Rose for MVP

BcEuAbRsS
04-02-2011, 11:19 AM
He is shoting 50% from 3 for April :D

Bullsfan22
04-02-2011, 11:20 AM
he will end up watching tape this offseason and get his shot selection more polished. In his first two years he shot 47 and 49% from the field. if he tones it down I see him having a pretty efficient year next year because of his improvement in drawing fouls. this is his first season incorporating an improved 3ball and while he's jacking up too much this season he's establishing himself as a threat.

just a couple of games ago I saw him pump fake at the three point line and draw a foul to get 3 free throws, you never would have saw that last year.

me watching him every game of his career makes it easy to predict that he will tone it down a tad because he has proved to not be a selfish player. he has a lot to learn after all its only his third season.

All it is him overusing a new toy. It's a classic example why you can't base everything of percentages. He went from 26 percent to 33 percent this year but the volume of 3's he has taken has lowered his 3 point percentage. Earlier in the season when he was hovering around 40% he was taking smart threes now it's totally different because of confidence. Over the offseason he'll find out the difference between "good shots" and "feel good" shots.

godolphins
04-02-2011, 11:21 AM
Really it's a bigger problem than D. Wade ever had with the three. Wade never even approached NEAR 2 attempts per game until he was 27 (never shot more than 3 and a half), and at this point Rose is throwing up 5-6 a game (and shooting 29% over the past few months). It's a MAJOR hole in his game that he doesn't want to accept that he has at this point - it looks like he's trying to figure it out on the court.

To each their own, but like I said, that won't fly in the playoffs. He needs to figure out how to make that offense more efficient, and chucking threes isn't the answer.

edit:


I love when people say this **** and continue to follow the game to the point they do. And are you incapable of separating the difference between "some people have tried to rig games and 'the game is rigged as a whole'"?

I'm not going to bother getting into it further here, but you people are comedy.
I think its common knowledge to most Nba fans that the Nba is rigged even most people on here think that there was a thread made a while back asking " Do you guys think the Nba rigged” and 90% of the people who went in that thread said yes,

BcEuAbRsS
04-02-2011, 11:22 AM
it's laughable they gave it to rose...lebrons stats and play trumps roses for march but i think wade should have won eastern conference player of the month...wade should have won player of the week each week this month...

Wade:
26.6 ppg on 48.6%, 1.7 spg, 1.8 bpg, 5.0 apg, 5.3 rpg, 31.9% from 3 in march...26 steals 27 blocks in 1 month, wades a stud...it's a joke that rose won player of the month, the writers are trying to do all that they can to justify rose of winning the mvp, basically rose winning this month guarantees rose winning the MVP

Do the writers pick player of the month/week?

BcEuAbRsS
04-02-2011, 11:27 AM
I think its common knowledge to most Nba fans that the Nba is rigged even most people on here think that there was a thread made a while back asking " Do you guys think the Nba rigged” and 90% of the people who went in that thread said yes,

So is that what happend in the finals against the Mavs :rolleyes:

theheatles
04-02-2011, 11:39 AM
Do the writers pick player of the month/week?

whoever...david stern is in cahoots with the writers

tredigs
04-02-2011, 11:47 AM
The generalizations... and general stupidity on this board is comedy.

It's no wonder it's the laughing stock of the site. That's my closing comment on the "NBA IZ RIGGED!" tangent.

BcEuAbRsS
04-02-2011, 11:48 AM
The generalizations... and general stupidity on this board is comedy.

It's no wonder it's the laughing stock of the site. That's my closing comment on the "NBA IZ RIGGED!" tangent.

Second that motion

godolphins
04-02-2011, 11:56 AM
The generalizations... and general stupidity on this board is comedy.

It's no wonder it's the laughing stock of the site. That's my closing comment on the "NBA IZ RIGGED!" tangent.

Draft lottery?
Playoffs?
Remember last year when former ref Tim Donaghy went 16-1 picking Nba playoffs games by just telling him who the refs were going to be
Edit: I'm not the only one who think so: http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/showthread.php?t=602260&highlight=rigged

godolphins
04-02-2011, 11:58 AM
So is that what happend in the finals against the Mavs :rolleyes:
So is that what happened when the Bulls ended up with the #1 pick and drafted the home town kid :rolleyes:

Chi City23
04-02-2011, 12:43 PM
So is that what happened when the Bulls ended up with the #1 pick and drafted the home town kid :rolleyes:

Don't know what you're talking about.. we had great odds of getting that pick! :D ;)

ManRam
04-02-2011, 12:47 PM
Kobe is making quite the push right now...

If they get the #1 seed in the West, well, that's amazing. I think it probably would becoming a bit too much out of left field and too late into the race, but that's just quite the feat.

If nothing else, he'll make it a bit more interesting than it otherwise would have been. I don't think Dwight's chances are really realistic anymore. The Magic just aren't a team taken as seriously as the Bulls, Lakers, Heat etc...and for just reasons.

tredigs
04-02-2011, 12:48 PM
What about the countless examples of the hometown kid NOT being drafted by their downtrodden team (virtually every year)? We're not gonna bother with that?

If you're a conspiracy nut searching for just that, you can find them all over the place - and some WILL definitely be legitimate - but when you start to generalize and make blanket statements, that's when you join the cesspool of stupidity.

Critical thinking ftw.



Kobe is making quite the push right now...

If they get the #1 seed in the West, well, that's amazing. I think it probably would becoming a bit too much out of left field and too late into the race, but that's just quite the feat.

If nothing else, he'll make it a bit more interesting than it otherwise would have been. I don't think Dwight's chances are really realistic anymore. The Magic just aren't a team taken as seriously as the Bulls, Lakers, Heat etc...and for just reasons.


As far as mainstream media outlets, I don't think the push is that hard. I think Rose has a fairly firm grip on their ballots from everything we're hearing.

finalverse
04-02-2011, 01:03 PM
So the NBA is making Chicago's bench strong? The NBA is making the Bulls shut down teams defensively? The NBA would rather see Chicago as the #1 seed then the Miami Heat (Wade, Lebron and Bosh?). lol you guys are losing it. Dudes just relax...if Rose wins it, it's not the end of the world. I feel for some of you guys. I can totally picture some of you crying like a baby if he gets MVP. So freaking embarassing.

godolphins
04-02-2011, 01:21 PM
What about the countless examples of the hometown kid NOT being drafted by their downtrodden team (virtually every year)? We're not gonna bother with that?

If you're a conspiracy nut searching for just that, you can find them all over the place - and some WILL definitely be legitimate - but when you start to generalize and make blanket statements, that's when you join the cesspool of stupidity.

Critical thinking ftw.





As far as mainstream media outlets, I don't think the push is that hard. I think Rose has a fairly firm grip on their ballots from everything we're hearing.

You're just in denial right now, most people know its rigged and here you are thinking its clean. By the way you do know that not too long ago a Nba refs was arrested for illegally gambling on games and after that he revealed the truth about the Nba plus I think its obvious to most people that the Nba lottery is fixed

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

:laugh:

ManRam
04-02-2011, 01:24 PM
As far as mainstream media outlets, I don't think the push is that hard. I think Rose has a fairly firm grip on their ballots from everything we're hearing.

Yeah, that's pretty why I think although it shouldn't be too little too late, it really is. The media has pretty much sealed this shut.

godolphins
04-02-2011, 01:25 PM
So the NBA is making Chicago's bench strong? The NBA is making the Bulls shut down teams defensively? The NBA would rather see Chicago as the #1 seed then the Miami Heat (Wade, Lebron and Bosh?). lol you guys are losing it. Dudes just relax...if Rose wins it, it's not the end of the world. I feel for some of you guys. I can totally picture some of you crying like a baby if he gets MVP. So freaking embarassing.

Who said all that?

IamKaiserSoze
04-02-2011, 01:35 PM
You're just in denial right now, most people know its rigged and here you are thinking its clean. By the way you do know that not too long ago a Nba refs was arrested for illegally gambling on games and after that he revealed the truth about the Nba plus I think its obvious to most people that the Nba lottery is fixed

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance

:laugh:

if you really believe it is rigged...and you continue to watch it...seems like that makes you a bit brain damaged then. it would no longer be a sport. if you are going to complain about it for being ingenuine...stop watching.

and don't speak for everyone. who do you think you are? stephen hawking? only person you are qualified to speak for is yourself. by the responses to this thread you stand with the vast minority.

ManRam
04-02-2011, 02:31 PM
I just read a good post on a different forum, so I won't post it...but basically I'll sum it up and say that the MVP has consistently gone to a player who has been one of the following 4...or at least the award should go to one of the following 4...categories of players.

1. Best Player, Best Team
2. Most Irreplaceable
3. The Plain Best Player
4. Does Most With the Least

For curiosity's sake, which one is Rose?

My guess is he got this from a Hollinger (or as Bulls fans call him, Satan) chat, where he kind of said the same thing, and alluded that Kobe was 1, Dwight was 2 and 4, and LeBron was 3 respectively.

This kind of just plays into the whole "what the hell does the MVP award really signify" debate.

Nonetheless, just some more food for thought.

nitric
04-02-2011, 02:35 PM
Hollinger doesn't even have Rose in his Top 5 MVP Candidates. dude is legit in my book

NEILarado
04-02-2011, 02:36 PM
Derrick Rose pretty easily. Dwight second...

this. anything else means you're a hater. simple as that

ManRam
04-02-2011, 02:41 PM
Hollinger doesn't even have Rose in his Top 5 MVP Candidates. dude is legit in my book


He is a stat geek, that's for sure. I personally love him, and think a lot of his stuff is both innovative and telling. Obviously, like everything and like every stat in the world, his work has to be intepreted and used correctly and with the correct grains of salt.

But that is hard to justify. It's obvious he's just strictly concluding that from an individual (non-team-related) and statistical stance...which you can argue, and I hope he clarified that. But he knows better that the MVP isn't that. Not having a top 5 statistical season does not equate to not having a top 5 MVP season. I think he's using some hyperboles here, to over illustrate his points.

But yeah, that's ludicrous. I can understand arguments for him not wining, or even being top 2...but not being top 5 is a bit much.

NEILarado
04-02-2011, 02:43 PM
I just read a good post on a different forum, so I won't post it...but basically I'll sum it up and say that the MVP has consistently gone to a player who has been one of the following 4...or at least the award should go to one of the following 4...categories of players.

1. Best Player, Best Team
2. Most Irreplaceable
3. The Plain Best Player
4. Does Most With the Least

For curiosity's sake, which one is Rose?

My guess is he got this from a Hollinger (or as Bulls fans call him, Satan) chat, where he kind of said the same thing, and alluded that Kobe was 1, Dwight was 2 and 4, and LeBron was 3 respectively.

This kind of just plays into the whole "what the hell does the MVP award really signify" debate.

Nonetheless, just some more food for thought.

With no bias at all, D-Rose is easily 1, 2, and 4. Let me explain:

1. Without a doubt, the Bulls and Lakers are the best teams in the NBA right now. Rose and Kobe are equal in this sense.

2. Take away Rose from this team, along with all the injuries the Bulls suffered through and they're nowhere near the top 8 in either conference. He's been involved in over 50% of offensive production (scoring or assisting) which is by far the best in the NBA.

4. This stems from the injuries. No Boozer/Noah for a combined 55 games and STILL higher then Boston, Miami, and the Lakers. Are you kidding me?! You cant tell me Watson, Bogans, Deng, Gibson, and Kurt Thomas could do anything close to that. Even WITH the rest of the bench.

D-Rose is EASILY the MVP. Howard would be 2nd and Kobe 3rd.

ManRam
04-02-2011, 02:46 PM
Hollinger's last Insider article, however, is extremely well written. Again, it takes some extreme sides, but he makes his points, backs them up, and really does a great job at it. If you have Insider, it's worth a read. Bulls fans won't like it, but hey, that's old news. Can't post it here, but if you want reasoning into why he feels how he feels, read it. It will make sense, and if you read it with an open mind, it won't be hard to realize that the man is A) not crazy and B) put a ton of though into this and C) makes some really great points.

He takes some shots at Bucher in his chat, and it's pretty funny. I'll take Hollinger over Bucher any day of the week...but that's just me. But I prefer deductive reasoning to biased inductive reasoning 9 times out of 10, so that's probably why.

jmcelligott92
04-02-2011, 02:49 PM
Ehhh thats your opinion but I like guys like Wilbon and Bucher, I always disliked Hollinger, i feel like he thinks he's almighty basketball knowledge guru and knows more than you because he made a stat and works for espn. I don't like using stats for everything like he does.

ManRam
04-02-2011, 02:52 PM
With no bias at all, D-Rose is easily 1, 2, and 4. Let me explain:

1. Without a doubt, the Bulls and Lakers are the best teams in the NBA right now. Rose and Kobe are equal in this sense.

2. Take away Rose from this team, along with all the injuries the Bulls suffered through and they're nowhere near the top 8 in either conference. He's been involved in over 50% of offensive production (scoring or assisting) which is by far the best in the NBA.

4. This stems from the injuries. No Boozer/Noah for a combined 55 games and STILL higher then Boston, Miami, and the Lakers. Are you kidding me?! You cant tell me Watson, Bogans, Deng, Gibson, and Kurt Thomas could do anything close to that. Even WITH the rest of the bench.

D-Rose is EASILY the MVP. Howard would be 2nd and Kobe 3rd.

I disagree quite frankly. 1 you have a strong argument for, but time will tell. They have equal records, if anything, it's a wash. I think the Lakers have shown lately that they are the best, but again, I'll give you a wash for that. Actually, technically SA still has the best record...

Take Dwight off the Magic, they're the Cavs. Period. Take Rose off the Bulls, and they make the playoffs. I can't prove this, but I've watched enough of both teams to figure this out. The Magic have no one who can defend besides Dwight. They don't have a reliable scorer. They don't have any size besides Dwight. They don't even have a center on that team besides Dwight. The Bulls still would be an elite defensive team. They still have three fringe all-stars.

I really just don't think many non-Bulls fans will agree that Rose is more invaluable and irreplaceable to his team than Dwight, especially if you really realize that DEFENSE is half the game.

Injuries might even things out, but after Rose and Howard, the next 3 best players on both teams wear Bulls jerseys. The better coach resides in Chicago. The better bench resides in Chicago (especially with our injuries now)...and again, Chicago has an absolutely elite defense.

redwhitenblue
04-02-2011, 02:54 PM
If not for Howard, the Magic probably don't make those horrible trades midseason.

ManRam
04-02-2011, 02:56 PM
Ehhh thats your opinion but I like guys like Wilbon and Bucher, I always disliked Hollinger, i feel like he thinks he's almighty basketball knowledge guru and knows more than you because he made a stat and works for espn. I don't like using stats for everything like he does.

Well Wilbon is an admitted Chicago homer, and Hollinger's stats, regressions and analytics have not popped out results favorable to Rose, so it is incredibly understandable why someone like Wilbon is more revered by Bulls fans and Hollinger isn't. I don't care for Wilbon as an analyst. His basketball knowledge really is very primitive. I doubt he knows what eFG% or defensive efficiency even means. I'm serious. He just talks about points per game like it's the only thing that matters. Very simplistic. I like him as an on the air personality, but as an analyst, no thanks. Hollinger is an amazing basketball mind. He's progressed the realm of basketball statistics more than all but a handful of individuals ever have...like it or not.

ManRam
04-02-2011, 02:59 PM
If not for Howard, the Magic probably don't make those horrible trades midseason.

What does this mean?

godolphins
04-02-2011, 03:00 PM
if you really believe it is rigged...and you continue to watch it...seems like that makes you a bit brain damaged then. it would no longer be a sport. if you are going to complain about it for being ingenuine...stop watching.

and don't speak for everyone. who do you think you are? stephen hawking? only person you are qualified to speak for is yourself. by the responses to this thread you stand with the vast minority.


Brain damaged? :laugh2: Go back to that previous link I posted where most people said they love the NBA but they believe its rigged, if I want to watch it and complain about it than I'm allowed to do that like most people. And I'm David Stern so I have inside info :laugh:

theheatles
04-02-2011, 03:00 PM
Well Wilbon is an admitted Chicago homer, and Hollinger's stats, regressions and analytics have not popped out results favorable to Rose, so it is incredibly understandable why someone like Wilbon is more revered by Bulls fans and Hollinger isn't. I don't care for Wilbon as an analyst. His basketball knowledge really is very primitive. I doubt he knows what eFG% or defensive efficiency even means. I'm serious. He just talks about points per game like it's the only thing that matters. Very simplistic. I like him as an on the air personality, but as an analyst, no thanks. Hollinger is an amazing basketball mind. He's progressed the realm of basketball statistics more than all but a handful of individuals ever have...like it or not.

exactly, and it's a shame he has an mvp vote

Dnovakovic099
04-02-2011, 03:00 PM
Hollinger's last Insider article, however, is extremely well written. Again, it takes some extreme sides, but he makes his points, backs them up, and really does a great job at it. If you have Insider, it's worth a read. Bulls fans won't like it, but hey, that's old news. Can't post it here, but if you want reasoning into why he feels how he feels, read it. It will make sense, and if you read it with an open mind, it won't be hard to realize that the man is A) not crazy and B) put a ton of though into this and C) makes some really great points.

He takes some shots at Bucher in his chat, and it's pretty funny. I'll take Hollinger over Bucher any day of the week...but that's just me. But I prefer deductive reasoning to biased inductive reasoning 9 times out of 10, so that's probably why.

Nobody here is arguing that Rose is having a top five statistical season, or that he is even a top five player in the NBA. i believe he is neither. The reason Rose is MVP is because his team is winning. So we ask ourselves why is Rose important to the Bulls winning? Well, first off he is a very good offensive player, but players like Durant, Kobe, Dwight, Deron Williams, James, and Wade are all as good or better players than Rose. However, Rose has other factors to helping his team win. He practices hard and gives credit to his teamates and bench. This motivates the team to play harder which in turn makes him more valuable. He has a low ego and does what is best for the team this again lets the coach control the team better and make Rose more valuable. Now, Dwight, Durant, and Kobe all bring these same things as Rose, but the Magic and Thunder both have worse records. Now, comes Kobe. The Lakers have a far superior cast to that of the Bulls and yet the Bulls have a better record. The Heat are next, but how can you award the MVP to a guy who has won it the past two years and still hasn't won a championship. On top of that he has another top five player and another top twenty player on his team. Plus a lot of great role players. The reason the Heat suck is because they don't practice hard and that are their leaders faults. Mike Miller can't go from a very good player to a snub in one year for no reason.

My point is that Rose is easily the MVP and there is should be no argument about it. Is he the best MVP ever? No. Is he a top five player in the league? No. Does he contribute to his team winning the most? Yes.

redwhitenblue
04-02-2011, 03:02 PM
What does this mean?
All I hear is complaining about Howard's help, but was his help not better before those early and midseason trades that brought in washed up crap?

If they didn't have Howard, and say only had Gortat at the time, I don't see them making those moves.

ManRam
04-02-2011, 03:20 PM
All I hear is complaining about Howard's help, but was his help not better before those early and midseason trades that brought in washed up crap?

If they didn't have Howard, and say only had Gortat at the time, I don't see them making those moves.

Are you not aware why we made those trades? We sucked at that time. We were in a huge rut. We literally had to make a move. Was it the right move? Probably not...certainly hasn't made us significantly better.

Gil, J-Rich and Hedo are washed up. Sure...but so are Lewis and Vince.

And yes, if we didn't have Howard, we wouldn't have made those trades...because we wouldn't be in contention and we wouldn't feel a need to do something to stay in contention. Not sure I understand you attempt at a backhanded jab here. Otis felt, and said it publicly, that for us to stay as championship contenders, a change had to be made, so he did it.

The trade basically looks like a wash...that wasn't the plan though. Something had to be done. We were playing terrible basketball at the time.

Lewis was worthless. He stood in the corner waiting to shoot threes and that's it. He never attacked. Shot 41%. Wasn't shooting well from three. Was only scoring 12 points a game. Wasn't rebounding (4 a game). He was just worthless. He was getting to the line at such an anemic rate. Getting rid of him was seriously addition by subtraction because it allowed Bass to start and Anderson to get more minutes.

Carter was terrible from day one in Orlando, but was a bit better this season. Carter posted a 16.2 PER here and .151 WS/48 here. Richardson has come in and posted a 13.1 PER and .120 WS/48 here. Richardson's PER and WS/48 were both considerably higher in PHX. We didn't expect him to come here and play worse than he was in PHX. That's just ****** luck. He's underwhelmed.

Hedo also, again, hasn't found his old forum like we hoped. It was a gamble that didn't pay off.

Arenas was a gamble, and it didn't pay off. Again, Shard wasn't taking us anywhere. He wasn't playing inspired. He wasn't scoring. He wasn't rebounding. He wasn't attacking. He wasn't doing anything. Magic fans wanted him benched. But Gil wasn't the answer. Otis probably let friendship get in the way, because he and Gil go way back...but Gil has not found his old form. We thought our offense would find a huge spark, and that our defense would continue to hover around the top 5 in the league (it has). The offense just hasn't improved. The guys we brought in just have underwhelmed.


So again, not quite sure what point you're trying to make. Just come out and say what you're trying to say. It's clear it's some sort of jab at either Howard, the Magic or his MVP candidacy.

We had to make a move. I loved it at the time. I wouldn't take it back, regardless of how disappointing the three of those guys have been. Vince and Lewis weren't taking us anywhere. The only regret I have is Gil's contract.

redwhitenblue
04-02-2011, 03:22 PM
So again, not quite sure what point you're trying to make. Just come out and say what you're trying to say. It's clear it's some sort of jab at either Howard, the Magic or his MVP candidacy.
I, in no way, was trying to hide what I meant.

I still think that Magic team minus Howard could've worked their way into the playoffs in the East.

tredigs
04-02-2011, 03:36 PM
I, in no way, was trying to hide what I meant.

I still think that Magic team minus Howard could've worked their way into the playoffs in the East.

Really? That team would be so horrible. No big, no great defenders. No star.

ManRam
04-02-2011, 03:39 PM
I, in no way, was trying to hide what I meant.

I still think that Magic team minus Howard could've worked their way into the playoffs in the East.

Fair enough. I don't think that trade is worth attacking, especially for the supporting cast thing. It had to be done. Sure, Hedo, J-Rich and especially Gil haven't panned out like we wished, but something had to be done, we took a gamble, and it didn't pay off. They contributing just as much (little) as the guys they've replaced.

And, sadly I disagree. I wish I didn't. There are Magic (Dwight fans) who have sigs saying "free Dwight Howard from the Magic front office". That says a lot about how they feel about our team. I have zero faith in our ability to get out of round 2 honestly as is, and without Dwight, well...that terrifies me. This team just has no consistency, desire or defensive motivation after Dwight. Nothing. Jameer has a good game here and there. Hedo will dish out 8 assists once on a blue moon. Richardson will get hot from three once a week...but that's really it. No consistency.

I hate when fans start slandering their team (especially to boost an MVP candidate)...but I'm honestly just being honest. I say this stuff in the Magic forum amongst our own fans.

Nelson/Arenas
Richardson/JJ
Hedo/Q
Bass/Malik Allen
Anderson/Daniel Orton

Hoist threes and play no D...that would be their motto. That front court is going to get abused. Name one plus defender on that team. You could argue that defense goes from top 5 to a team defense that resembles Toronto's. And literally, Jameer is the only guy who can get any sort of penetration. With Dwight out of the picture, they become so easy to defend. Stop the three, and game over.

Sadds The Gr8
04-02-2011, 03:41 PM
I, in no way, was trying to hide what I meant.

I still think that Magic team minus Howard could've worked their way into the playoffs in the East.

lol yea right

redwhitenblue
04-02-2011, 03:43 PM
It's the East.

Charlotte is still very much in the playoff hunt.

ManRam
04-02-2011, 03:45 PM
It's the East.

Charlotte is still very much in the playoff hunt.

I need to stop putting so much thought into my posts...

redwhitenblue
04-02-2011, 03:47 PM
I'm watching the Cubs blow it, I don't have much attention right now.

PrestigeWldWde
04-02-2011, 04:01 PM
Miami Herald Heat


Still say its Dwight

It's really going to hurt the ignorant Heat fans when Rose wins the MVP isn't it? I really don't understand the hate. After everything that has been done this year by Rose and the Bulls, you honestly think it should be someone other than him? Get over it already. There is a reason that experts have been saying Rose as MVP for most of the year now.

nitric
04-02-2011, 04:10 PM
People need to start realizing the Magic were built around to compliment Howard. They wanted a system where there are 4 shooters around Howard and play the in and out game. The magic underperforming doesn't warrant Howard the MVP whatsoever.

ManRam
04-02-2011, 04:21 PM
People need to start realizing the Magic were built around to compliment Howard. They wanted a system where there are 4 shooters around Howard and play the in and out game. The magic underperforming doesn't warrant Howard the MVP whatsoever.

I don't think a lot of Magic fans would say this team has been built around him...at least not well. Again, the F.O. gets a lot of heat. 4 shooters and a big man isn't how you build a team...and this year they are learning that the hard way. In the past, they had some guys who could do more than just shoot, but this year, we really do live and die by the three, unless Dwight saves us. He's never had a complimentary player. Again, look for the few Magic fans here who have the "Free Dwight Howard from the Magic F.O." in their sigs...

And I agree, the Magic under-performing doesn't warrant Howard the MVP...and I don't think a single person here has said that. The fact that the Magic have regressed to the 4 seed is probably the main reason he won't win the MVP :shrug: If he deserves it, it's for other reasons. But still, he's doing a whole lot with a whole lot less than any of the other candidates, and in the past, the MVP has taken that into consideration.

Again, if he deserves it, it's for other reasons...no one is saying he deserves it because his cast is underperfoming. Not sure how you're deducing that.

footballer2369
04-02-2011, 04:22 PM
^No, but Howard's performance does.

He is the most valuable player to his team this year, no matter what the reason his team is so bad in the first place.

Rose is arguably the worst defender in the rotation of an elite defensive team, and he is the catalyst of an average offense (his 41% shooting last month didn't help). Howard is the only great defender on a great defensive team, and he is the super-efficient catalyst of his offense. He's more valuable.

I don't even believe Lebron or Wade merit more consideration than he does- he simply has been the MVP.

PrestigeWldWde
04-02-2011, 04:28 PM
^No, but Howard's performance does.

He is the most valuable player to his team this year, no matter what the reason his team is so bad in the first place.

Rose is arguably the worst defender in the rotation of an elite defensive team, and he is the catalyst of an average offense (his 41% shooting last month didn't help). Howard is the only great defender on a great defensive team, and he is the super-efficient catalyst of his offense. He's more valuable.

I don't even believe Lebron or Wade merit more consideration than he does- he simply has been the MVP.

Yeah, neither does his Eastern Conference Player of the Month award for March, right?:facepalm:

JordansBulls
04-02-2011, 04:48 PM
Rose is MVP, but I think Gasol should be on the list as well if he is 2nd in the league in Win Shares and right behind his teammate in PER.

redwhitenblue
04-02-2011, 04:48 PM
^No, but Howard's performance does.

He is the most valuable player to his team this year, no matter what the reason his team is so bad in the first place.

Rose is arguably the worst defender in the rotation of an elite defensive team, and he is the catalyst of an average offense (his 41% shooting last month didn't help). Howard is the only great defender on a great defensive team, and he is the super-efficient catalyst of his offense. He's more valuable.

I don't even believe Lebron or Wade merit more consideration than he does- he simply has been the MVP.
In what rotation is Rose the worst of? The starting 5? Hello Boozer. The PG's? Rose is easily better defensively than CJ Watson, though Watson does like to hawk around the passing lanes more (which is actually incorrect in this defense, something Brewer has struggled to avoid as well)

footballer2369
04-02-2011, 04:56 PM
In what rotation is Rose the worst of? The starting 5? Hello Boozer. The PG's? Rose is easily better defensively than CJ Watson, though Watson does like to hawk around the passing lanes more (which is actually incorrect in this defense, something Brewer has struggled to avoid as well)

Ok, maybe I was a bit harsh...

He is an average defensive player on THE elite defensive team.

redwhitenblue
04-02-2011, 05:00 PM
Ok, maybe I was a bit harsh...

He is an average defensive player on THE elite defensive team.
So what you're saying is he's a great team defender.

1 on 1, he's not great, he's very average (not below like some believe). In a team defense rotation, he's actually pretty damn good. Most of the Bulls players are (exception being Boozer and Korver)

footballer2369
04-02-2011, 05:00 PM
Yeah, neither does his Eastern Conference Player of the Month award for March, right?:facepalm:

Even Bulls fans agree that awarding him with Player of the Month in his worst month was a joke. Lebron put up something like 28ppg on 58% shooting and Dwight has dominated.

A subjective award doesn't mean he necessarily played well anyway, as baseball's Gold Glove awards have shown us.

footballer2369
04-02-2011, 05:02 PM
So what you're saying is he's a great team defender.

1 on 1, he's not great, he's very average (not below like some believe). In a team defense rotation, he's actually pretty damn good. Most of the Bulls players are (exception being Boozer and Korver)

No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying he's an average defender with great defenders (minus Boozer and Korver) surrounding him.

The defensive +/- stats with him on/off the court display this point.

Dwight on the other hand is the best defender on a great defense. He carries his defense AND offense. Rose is not too impactful on defense and he carries his offense (less efficiently than Dwight).

redwhitenblue
04-02-2011, 05:03 PM
Even Bulls fans agree that awarding him with Player of the Month in his worst month was a joke. Lebron put up something like 28ppg on 58% shooting and Dwight has dominated.

A subjective award doesn't mean he necessarily played well anyway, as baseball's Gold Glove awards have shown us.
Just like sometimes having big stats doesn't mean you played well. Lebron failed several times at hitting the game-winning shot. You won't be player of the month going 0-4 or 0-5 in game winning situations, regardless of the overall numbers. Lebron wasn't even a nominee in my mind for March.


Rose should've won the award in a previous month, so I don't really care.

redwhitenblue
04-02-2011, 05:05 PM
No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying he's an average defender with great defenders (minus Boozer and Korver) surrounding him.

The defensive +/- stats with him on/off the court display this point.

Dwight on the other hand is the best defender on a great defense. He carries his defense AND offense. Rose is not too impactful on defense and he carries his offense (less efficiently than Dwight).
Those +/- numbers don't do ****, want to know why? Rose is very often on the court with Boozer AND Korver while rarely ever with Brewer (except late in the 4th, when the Bulls shut down other teams).

Prove to me that the +/- isn't more effected by the other individuals on the court before you attribute it to Rose, because you can't.

footballer2369
04-02-2011, 05:11 PM
Those +/- numbers don't do ****, want to know why? Rose is very often on the court with Boozer AND Korver while rarely ever with Brewer (except late in the 4th, when the Bulls shut down other teams).

Prove to me that the +/- isn't more effected by the other individuals on the court before you attribute it to Rose, because you can't.

Prove to me... because you can't. Interesting sentence.

Anyways, you're partially correct. I'm at work, and I lack the ambition to dredge through the stats to see who Rose has played most of his minutes with and how he has faired based on adj +/- numbers with each grouping. That said, I truly doubt that your assessment is accurate. Maybe someone else, like Chronz, will have the desire to do so. Maybe not.

More importantly, the Bulls have been a better defensive team with Rose on the bench... whether that is solely his fault or not.

Jewelz0376
04-02-2011, 05:15 PM
I think some people forget the when Rose is out usually the other team has their bench players in too... So when Rose is out stats might show the team is better defensively, but they are defending the other teams bench..not all of their starters

NBAfan4life
04-02-2011, 05:24 PM
Honestly if the Lakers somehow to pull the best overall record with the hardest remaining schedule Kobe deserves some more attention for MVP.

especially considering that is how the media has been choosing in recent years.