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Topballs
03-29-2011, 02:48 PM
The fact is no one can argue a career 30 ppg, on 50% shooting. Kobe fans, like myself, will say that Kobe did not have the luxury of having a team revolve around him from the beginning, and it is a valid point. In addition, one analyst made a column showing that if you took his first 3 seasons out of his career, his ppg would be about 28.

With all of that said - Kobe still wouldnt be able to compete with Jordans stats, ESPECIALLY regarding the shooting % - which is more than phenomenal.. As of right now you cannot compare Kobe to Jordan, especially while he is 32 and still playing. Phil described it best by saying: comparing Kobe to Jordan is just not fair. We will have to wait and see how the rest of his career pans out, and until then its not even a discussion IMO.

There is one thing that is intangible and has, in my opinion: (a)- Made kobe the player that he is today and (b)- Hurt his statistical percentages.... Throughout his career he has gotten tied up on the 1 on 1 game. What i mean by that is, Kobe would rather shoot the ball in someone's face and the whole teams face for that matter, than get the easy bucket. He has proven countless times that he can score whenever he wants, in whatever way he wants. This has been a story throughout his career. We all know the kobe that forces IMPOSSIBLE shots, and will never hesitate to shoot no matter what the circumstance is (and often makes them). In my estimation, he never seemed to play with a mindset to conserve, or even acknowledge his shooting %. He just doesn't care. Despite not being able to touch jordans stats, i do think there can be an argument for kobe being basketballs 1 on 1 master, and even rival jordan for being the greatest pure offensive scorer, which is not the same thing as being the best basketball player.

Post your opinion!

ANKUSH
03-29-2011, 02:59 PM
This is a point brought up all the time. I, in fact, made a thread about the problems with FG% a couple years back ( I don't know where the specific stats are anymore, but will try to look for them). The argument against FG% is simple:

Your premise: Kobe's FG% is lower than Jordan's

My refutation:
1) The FG% during Jordan's tenure in the league was about 46%. So he shot 4% better than the league (estimations).....In Kobe's tenure, (these were stats from 2 years ago)....he has shot around 45% while the league avg has dipped to 42%......So Kobe shoots about 3% better than the league (compared to Jordan's 4%)....Therefore, Kobe shoots a lower % than Jordan, but RELATIVE to the league, he shoots better than the avg. Both FG% are above average......THEREFORE

2)You cannot compare players' FG% straight up b/c the eras were different, rules have changed, and so has the opposition. Would you compare Baylor's's numbers to Jordans? No, because people seem to think that Baylor's era was somehow less competitive. So why compare Kobe's numbers?

Storch
03-29-2011, 03:35 PM
This is a point brought up all the time. I, in fact, made a thread about the problems with FG% a couple years back ( I don't know where the specific stats are anymore, but will try to look for them). The argument against FG% is simple:

Your premise: Kobe's FG% is lower than Jordan's

My refutation:
1) The FG% during Jordan's tenure in the league was about 46%. So he shot 4% better than the league (estimations).....In Kobe's tenure, (these were stats from 2 years ago)....he has shot around 45% while the league avg has dipped to 42%......So Kobe shoots about 3% better than the league (compared to Jordan's 4%)....Therefore, Kobe shoots a lower % than Jordan, but RELATIVE to the league, he shoots better than the avg. Both FG% are above average......THEREFORE

2)You cannot compare players' FG% straight up b/c the eras were different, rules have changed, and so has the opposition. Would you compare Baylor's's numbers to Jordans? No, because people seem to think that Baylor's era was somehow less competitive. So why compare Kobe's numbers?

:clap:

That's a great post, I never thought of it that way. Kudos.

Purple&Gold24
03-29-2011, 03:38 PM
This is a point brought up all the time. I, in fact, made a thread about the problems with FG% a couple years back ( I don't know where the specific stats are anymore, but will try to look for them). The argument against FG% is simple:

Your premise: Kobe's FG% is lower than Jordan's

My refutation:
1) The FG% during Jordan's tenure in the league was about 46%. So he shot 4% better than the league (estimations).....In Kobe's tenure, (these were stats from 2 years ago)....he has shot around 45% while the league avg has dipped to 42%......So Kobe shoots about 3% better than the league (compared to Jordan's 4%)....Therefore, Kobe shoots a lower % than Jordan, but RELATIVE to the league, he shoots better than the avg. Both FG% are above average......THEREFORE

2)You cannot compare players' FG% straight up b/c the eras were different, rules have changed, and so has the opposition. Would you compare Baylor's's numbers to Jordans? No, because people seem to think that Baylor's era was somehow less competitive. So why compare Kobe's numbers?

You should post more often, bro. And save this lol great post

IDB Josh M
03-29-2011, 03:38 PM
How does the different defenses of the eras match up in this argument? Jordan played at a time when the Zone Defense was illegal, and man-to-man was required. Is Kobe's FG% and overall play analyzed differently because Kobe has seen more Zone than Jordan has?

leftymo
03-29-2011, 04:01 PM
This is a point brought up all the time. I, in fact, made a thread about the problems with FG% a couple years back ( I don't know where the specific stats are anymore, but will try to look for them). The argument against FG% is simple:

Your premise: Kobe's FG% is lower than Jordan's

My refutation:
1) The FG% during Jordan's tenure in the league was about 46%. So he shot 4% better than the league (estimations).....In Kobe's tenure, (these were stats from 2 years ago)....he has shot around 45% while the league avg has dipped to 42%......So Kobe shoots about 3% better than the league (compared to Jordan's 4%)....Therefore, Kobe shoots a lower % than Jordan, but RELATIVE to the league, he shoots better than the avg. Both FG% are above average......THEREFORE

2)You cannot compare players' FG% straight up b/c the eras were different, rules have changed, and so has the opposition. Would you compare Baylor's's numbers to Jordans? No, because people seem to think that Baylor's era was somehow less competitive. So why compare Kobe's numbers?

This is a great post, and an argument that most have not considered. It's also the best way to account for the change in era. This basically creates a level playing field. In the 80's the game was wide open, players were overall a little smaller, and guys like Magic shot 55%... MJ's era, the bad boys and defense crept in, but the players were generally still smaller. Today's era, the amount of length on the court is ridiculous. There's a lot less space to move around, players can cover a lot more ground, and hence FG% have dropped. One could also argue that players less prepared for the NBA are also in the league (1 year of college, etc...)

I just want to applaud this point, b/c its the first I've seen it...:clap::clap::clap:

There are a lot of differences between Kobe & MJ... MJ fans should realize Kobe will have more titles than MJ when he's done. That's a fact, just be ready for it.

leftymo
03-29-2011, 04:03 PM
How does the different defenses of the eras match up in this argument? Jordan played at a time when the Zone Defense was illegal, and man-to-man was required. Is Kobe's FG% and overall play analyzed differently because Kobe has seen more Zone than Jordan has?


Very true. The rules have changed since the 90's...


The average starting SG is no longer a 6'3 these days either. Ehlo, Hornacek, B Scott, Dumars, Rivers, Paxsonsx2, Majerle are all gone...

Most SG's are now equal or taller than MJ...

kArSoN RyDaH
03-29-2011, 04:33 PM
Also the biggest difference never brought up:


KOBE WOULD NEVER LEAVE HIS TEAM TO GO PLAY ANOTHER SPORT. HE LOVES THE GAME TOO MUCH.

That right there is the only one I need to know.

Purple&Gold24
03-29-2011, 04:40 PM
Also the biggest difference never brought up:


KOBE WOULD NEVER LEAVE HIS TEAM TO GO PLAY ANOTHER SPORT. HE LOVES THE GAME TOO MUCH.

That right there is the only one I need to know.

:laugh: hahahha goood one.

lakers4sho
03-29-2011, 04:43 PM
Also the biggest difference never brought up:


KOBE WOULD NEVER LEAVE HIS TEAM TO GO PLAY ANOTHER SPORT. HE LOVES THE GAME TOO MUCH.

That right there is the only one I need to know.

We can also rephrase it this way:

Colby would have never been caught gambling and stuck in a dilemma with the mafia.

:cool:

championships
03-29-2011, 04:47 PM
Ugh :horse:

Topballs
03-29-2011, 05:06 PM
Great posts.. especially the relative FG% comparison posted by ANKUSH.

The reason that it's hard to justify my point about kobe not caring about FG% as compared to jordan, is because I did not get to see Jordan on a night-to-night basis, and dont know if he tended to do the same thing. I didnt get to see the consistency of both his off-nights, as well as his great nights, like i do for kobe. I also think that as people are very critical of Bryant, it is way easier to keep Kobe's off-nights fresh in the mind since he is currently still playing.

However, what I do know is that Kobe often takes several shots a game that are statistically very low % attempts, often resulting in him hurting his FG%. Right when he is shooting 50% in a game, he may decide to hoist up a few shots that he may not have had to, resulting in his % quickly dropping to below 50. This doesn't happen all the time, but often does. I think its a testimony to Kobes insane competitive mindset, which makes him the player that he is. I dont think people can argue his will to win. In game 7 vs Boston, he obviously had an off shooting night, yet he did not hesitate to keep shooting, and when the game came down to the end, his 'will' allowed him to drop a couple key baskets, not to mention his defense and rebounding throughout the game.

It makes me wonder if people will take that point into consideration about him generally not caring about percentages when it's all said and done because it can't really be used as evidence for any discussion regarding Kobe's spot on the all time list

S & B Bleeder
03-29-2011, 05:42 PM
We can also rephrase it this way:

Colby would have never been caught gambling and stuck in a dilemma with the mafia.

:cool:

1) The "colby" thing was unfunny and played out after 2 posts. Homeboy doesnt even post here anymore.

2) Jordan was the ULTIMATE selfish "me" player. He left his team to become one of the WORST baseball players the sport will ever see in its history. My former baseball teammates STILL use Jordan as a punchline when it concerns baseball.

Scottie ALMOST got that ring for the Bulls in MJ's absence (and really might have gotten it the next year had MJ not "unretired" after halfway through the season and shot his team out of the playoffs vs. the Magic), and truly showed what a hall of fame player Pip really was.

3) Kobe has already pulled off impossible shots that 23 couldnt have dreamt of making. 24 will be celebrated as the greatest of all time when his career is over. Mark my words.

LA_Raiders
03-29-2011, 06:16 PM
The fact is no one can argue a career 30 ppg, on 50% shooting. Kobe fans, like myself, will say that Kobe did not have the luxury of having a team revolve around him from the beginning, and it is a valid point. In addition, one analyst made a column showing that if you took his first 3 seasons out of his career, his ppg would be about 28.

With all of that said - Kobe still wouldnt be able to compete with Jordans stats, ESPECIALLY regarding the shooting % - which is more than phenomenal.. As of right now you cannot compare Kobe to Jordan, especially while he is 32 and still playing. Phil described it best by saying: comparing Kobe to Jordan is just not fair. We will have to wait and see how the rest of his career pans out, and until then its not even a discussion IMO.

There is one thing that is intangible and has, in my opinion: (a)- Made kobe the player that he is today and (b)- Hurt his statistical percentages.... Throughout his career he has gotten tied up on the 1 on 1 game. What i mean by that is, Kobe would rather shoot the ball in someone's face and the whole teams face for that matter, than get the easy bucket. He has proven countless times that he can score whenever he wants, in whatever way he wants. This has been a story throughout his career. We all know the kobe that forces IMPOSSIBLE shots, and will never hesitate to shoot no matter what the circumstance is (and often makes them). In my estimation, he never seemed to play with a mindset to conserve, or even acknowledge his shooting %. He just doesn't care. Despite not being able to touch jordans stats, i do think there can be an argument for kobe being basketballs 1 on 1 master, and even rival jordan for being the greatest pure offensive scorer, which is not the same thing as being the best basketball player.

Post your opinion!

Thats why he is the Black Mamba...

LA_Raiders
03-29-2011, 06:21 PM
1) The "colby" thing was unfunny and played out after 2 posts. Homeboy doesnt even post here anymore.

2) Jordan was the ULTIMATE selfish "me" player. He left his team to become one of the WORST baseball players the sport will ever see in its history. My former baseball teammates STILL use Jordan as a punchline when it concerns baseball.

Scottie ALMOST got that ring for the Bulls in MJ's absence (and really might have gotten it the next year had MJ not "unretired" after halfway through the season and shot his team out of the playoffs vs. the Magic), and truly showed what a hall of fame player Pip really was.

3) Kobe has already pulled off impossible shots that 23 couldnt have dreamt of making. 24 will be celebrated as the greatest of all time when his career is over. Mark my words.

:clap::clap::clap:

Anilyzer
03-29-2011, 06:28 PM
The fact is no one can argue a career 30 ppg, on 50% shooting. Kobe fans, like myself, will say that Kobe did not have the luxury of having a team revolve around him from the beginning, and it is a valid point. In addition, one analyst made a column showing that if you took his first 3 seasons out of his career, his ppg would be about 28.

With all of that said - Kobe still wouldnt be able to compete with Jordans stats, ESPECIALLY regarding the shooting % - which is more than phenomenal.. As of right now you cannot compare Kobe to Jordan, especially while he is 32 and still playing. Phil described it best by saying: comparing Kobe to Jordan is just not fair. We will have to wait and see how the rest of his career pans out, and until then its not even a discussion IMO.

There is one thing that is intangible and has, in my opinion: (a)- Made kobe the player that he is today and (b)- Hurt his statistical percentages.... Throughout his career he has gotten tied up on the 1 on 1 game. What i mean by that is, Kobe would rather shoot the ball in someone's face and the whole teams face for that matter, than get the easy bucket. He has proven countless times that he can score whenever he wants, in whatever way he wants. This has been a story throughout his career. We all know the kobe that forces IMPOSSIBLE shots, and will never hesitate to shoot no matter what the circumstance is (and often makes them). In my estimation, he never seemed to play with a mindset to conserve, or even acknowledge his shooting %. He just doesn't care. Despite not being able to touch jordans stats, i do think there can be an argument for kobe being basketballs 1 on 1 master, and even rival jordan for being the greatest pure offensive scorer, which is not the same thing as being the best basketball player.

Post your opinion!

I think the zone defense rules make a big difference... some of the "Shaq" rules that were implemented in the late 90's early 00's clearly work against Kobe, as players can zone, double, clog the lane etc and Kobe always has a couple defenders right in front of him.

I remember the Jordan days, when he goes isolation, if somebody "leaves their man" to come help they get an "illegal defense" technical, which doesn't exist anymore.

Seriously, with those rules still in place, Kobe might've scored 100 points in a game a few times by now...

Also I will just say that while Jordan's numbers are more consistent across his whole career, that to me it looks like Kobe's high points are higher than Jordan's high points. While Kobe might be less "perfect" in some ways, when it all comes together for him it is simply magical and he is the most dominant scorer and player in history.

For instance Kobe has a much more highly evolved outside game than Jordan... and when Kobe is "on", like in the 81 points game, it's just like an onslaught of rainbow 3's mixed in with mid-range shots and dunks and is completely unstoppable. Jordan didn't tend to break out of the envelope like that in quite the same way.

But yeah, on paper, Jordan's number probably secure him ahead of Kobe in the "my legend is better than your legend" category or whatever. I'd rather be Kobe though... Jordan seemed to have some problems, including stupid compulsive gambling and insomnia or whatever; Kobe seems to be smarter and have more personality and is more grounded. Kobe will be an ambassador for USA and basketball forever.

Topballs
03-29-2011, 06:45 PM
1) The "colby" thing was unfunny and played out after 2 posts. Homeboy doesnt even post here anymore.

2) Jordan was the ULTIMATE selfish "me" player. He left his team to become one of the WORST baseball players the sport will ever see in its history. My former baseball teammates STILL use Jordan as a punchline when it concerns baseball.

Scottie ALMOST got that ring for the Bulls in MJ's absence (and really might have gotten it the next year had MJ not "unretired" after halfway through the season and shot his team out of the playoffs vs. the Magic), and truly showed what a hall of fame player Pip really was.

3) Kobe has already pulled off impossible shots that 23 couldnt have dreamt of making. 24 will be celebrated as the greatest of all time when his career is over. Mark my words.


Related to the point in bold:

1993-94: There Is Life Without Jordan
However, the 1993-94 Bulls proved there was life without Michael Jordan. Although Chicago didn't win its fourth straight championship, it posted a 55-27 record (for second place behind the Atlanta Hawks in the Central Division) and advanced to the Eastern Conference Semifinals. But for the first time in four consecutive playoff matchups, the New York Knicks eliminated the Bulls, though it took them seven games to do it.

Scottie Pippen had a tremendous season in all facets of the game. The leading vote-getter for both the All-NBA First Team and the NBA All-Defensive First Team, he ranked eighth in the league in scoring (22.0 ppg), 23rd in rebounding (8.7 rpg), 19th in assists (5.6 apg), and second in steals (2.93 per game). Pippen also won MVP honors at the 1994 NBA All-Star Game, in which he was joined for the first time by teammates Horace Grant and B. J. Armstrong.

Toni Kukoc had a solid rookie season and gave the Bulls confidence in their future. The former European star found some aspects of the NBA difficult, but as a versatile sixth man he made the NBA All-Rookie Second Team and scored 10.9 points per game. He hit several game-winning buckets during the year, including a last-second three-pointer against the Knicks in Game 3 of the conference semifinals. Kukoc looked to be one of the team's focal points in 1994-95, especially after Grant left the team to sign with the Orlando Magic as a free agent.

GREATNESS ONE
03-29-2011, 07:18 PM
Great read Gentlemen, very good points have been brought up. Mamba needs to win this ring and add another or two to his career to be brought up the rankings and rival Jordan as GOAT.

C-Style
03-29-2011, 07:23 PM
This is a point brought up all the time. I, in fact, made a thread about the problems with FG% a couple years back ( I don't know where the specific stats are anymore, but will try to look for them). The argument against FG% is simple:

Your premise: Kobe's FG% is lower than Jordan's

My refutation:
1) The FG% during Jordan's tenure in the league was about 46%. So he shot 4% better than the league (estimations).....In Kobe's tenure, (these were stats from 2 years ago)....he has shot around 45% while the league avg has dipped to 42%......So Kobe shoots about 3% better than the league (compared to Jordan's 4%)....Therefore, Kobe shoots a lower % than Jordan, but RELATIVE to the league, he shoots better than the avg. Both FG% are above average......THEREFORE

2)You cannot compare players' FG% straight up b/c the eras were different, rules have changed, and so has the opposition. Would you compare Baylor's's numbers to Jordans? No, because people seem to think that Baylor's era was somehow less competitive. So why compare Kobe's numbers?

So does this mean Nash, Wade & Lebron shoot 10% better in Jordans Era?

IDB Josh M
03-29-2011, 07:37 PM
So does this mean Nash, Wade & Lebron shoot 10% better in Jordans Era?

If it works for Kobe, it would work for his contemporaries. However, those three players you mentioned only have one title between them combined.

Purple&Gold24
03-29-2011, 07:40 PM
If it works for Kobe, it would work for his contemporaries. However, those three players you mentioned only have one title between them combined.

:clap:

C-Style
03-29-2011, 07:43 PM
Guys just look at Kobe's career 3pt shot's made-attempts compared to those of Jordan, Bird, Magic amongst others....

Jordan: 581-1,778

Bird: 649-1,727

Magic: 325-1,074

Kobe: 1,403-4,141

Now wonder why Kobe shoots 46% and Jordan and others 50%. Fact is Kobe is in love with the 3pt line. but that's still not bad, let me tell you why.

Jordan is 50%

Kobe is 46%

That means if both players shot the ball:

200x Jordan will make 100, Kobe will make 92. +8

100x Jordan will make 50, Kobe will make 46. +4

50x Jordan will make 25, Kobe will make 23. +2

25x Jordan will make 12.5, Kobe will make 11.5. +1

Both players averaged somewhere between 19 and 23 shots per game.

That means that Jordan averaged about 1 shot more than Kobe. That's not too shabby considering the type of shots Kobe takes, thoughts?

Topballs
03-29-2011, 07:54 PM
This is close to my ultimate point. Kobes percentages are not as good as Jordans, but considering the degree of difficulty of most of Bryant's, stats can only tell one side of the story. Unfortunately theres no stat for "difficulty".

Jewelz0376
03-29-2011, 08:04 PM
Guys just look at Kobe's career 3pt shot's made-attempts compared to those of Jordan, Bird, Magic amongst others....

Jordan: 581-1,778

Bird: 649-1,727

Magic: 325-1,074

Kobe: 1,403-4,141

Now wonder why Kobe shoots 46% and Jordan and others 50%. Fact is Kobe is in love with the 3pt line. but that's still not bad, let me tell you why.

Jordan is 50%

Kobe is 46%

That means if both players shot the ball:

200x Jordan will make 100, Kobe will make 92. +8

100x Jordan will make 50, Kobe will make 46. +4

50x Jordan will make 25, Kobe will make 23. +2

25x Jordan will make 12.5, Kobe will make 11.5. +1

Both players averaged somewhere between 19 and 23 shots per game.

That means that Jordan averaged about 1 shot more than Kobe. That's not too shabby considering the type of shots Kobe takes, thoughts?

The thing that frustrates me the most about Kobe at times is that he sometimes makes things more difficult than they need to be...

Jordan more so later in his career would just make the simple play...He would get to his spot do his post fade or use his footwork to get his mid range j and it would almost seem effortless

Kobe on the other hand seems like he sometimes wants to make it more difficult than it needs to be...He'll turn a simple pull up j to a 1 legged fadeaway jumper lol..Obviously that's an exaggeration, but you get the point...

Kobe makes more insanely difficult jumpers than I've ever seen from any other player...I''ll never forget that 3rd quarter against Bos last year in the finals in game 5 when he had 19 pts...I've never seen a player hit so many crazy shots consecutively like that...it was amazing :speechless:

Anilyzer
03-29-2011, 08:13 PM
Also the biggest difference never brought up:


KOBE WOULD NEVER LEAVE HIS TEAM TO GO PLAY ANOTHER SPORT. HE LOVES THE GAME TOO MUCH.

That right there is the only one I need to know.

True... Yeah, the more I think about it, how can Jordan EVER be the G.O.A.T. if he bailed on basketball to play baseball...? Or if that happened because of some whispers about collusion with gamblers and/or gambling debts...

Anilyzer
03-29-2011, 08:16 PM
yeah... Jordan is damaged goods actually.

He was obviously extremely great, and the 3-peat thing had never been seen before... but now that we see how much of an influence Phil Jackson is, and the way Jordan's career wound down... Jordan loses some of his shine.

ESPECIALLY now, when Kobe starts to get into these career years when Jordan suddenly became erratic and bailed on the NBA for baseball, Kobe's greatness and acheivements start to overshadow Jordan.

It's inevitable, because Kobe is still improving.

Anilyzer
03-29-2011, 08:22 PM
Scottie ALMOST got that ring for the Bulls in MJ's absence (and really might have gotten it the next year had MJ not "unretired" after halfway through the season and shot his team out of the playoffs vs. the Magic), and truly showed what a hall of fame player Pip really was.

This is actually a really big deal.

At the time, EVERYONE could see the unfairness of Phil and Scottie's Bulls team losing
to New York in the playoffs... Almost everyone I talked to said it looked like the league refs made it extra tough on the Bulls and essentially ****-blocked them from another title, a non-Jordan title.

And the NEXT year, when it again looked like the Bulls would be unbeatable, they rushed Jordan back to take the reins again.

If I was cynical, I'd say that the NBA and all these affiliated corporations were DEEEEEPLY invested in the Jordan Legend... and that if Scottie and Phil could just rack up another title without "the great one", then that would severely diminish the Jordan legend.

So in the first non-Jordan year, the refs crack down on Chicago insanely hard and they lose to NY... the second year the agents and league officials scramble to solve whatever the problem with Jordan was so they can rush him back to the Bulls and cover up the fact that he wasn't the main reason they were winning titles...

Topballs
03-29-2011, 08:22 PM
The thing that frustrates me the most about Kobe at times is that he sometimes makes things more difficult than they need to be...

Jordan more so later in his career would just make the simple play...He would get to his spot do his post fade or use his footwork to get his mid range j and it would almost seem effortless

Kobe on the other hand seems like he sometimes wants to make it more difficult than it needs to be...He'll turn a simple pull up j to a 1 legged fadeaway jumper lol..Obviously that's an exaggeration, but you get the point...

Kobe makes more insanely difficult jumpers than I've ever seen from any other player...I''ll never forget that 3rd quarter against Bos last year in the finals in game 5 when he had 19 pts...I've never seen a player hit so many crazy shots consecutively like that...it was amazing :speechless:


Exactly. I could not agree more. Kobe often makes the shot more difficult than it needs to be. And for that reason he is not as efficient.

Anilyzer
03-29-2011, 08:23 PM
ultimately, Phil Jackson > Jordan... in 2011 we can now see that pretty clearly

whitemamba33
03-29-2011, 08:51 PM
Sigh.

Does anyone else see what's going on here? I mean, go look at the posts in this thread. Everyone here just dances around the facts and posts excuses and off-the-wall reasons why Jordan isn't the best player of all time. You are blaming it on height, blaming it on zone defense even though Jordan played in a handchecking area, trying to act like leaving to play a little baseball takes away from him being the best ever at basketball, trying to erase the first 3 seasons of Kobe's career....hell, you guys are even trying to say that it's somehow a good thing that Kobe tosses up bad shots because he's trying to "shoot in your face"....these are all sad, very sad.

Jordan has better stats, more achievements and awards, and dominates the public opinion (including both Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen). Anytime someone makes an Kobe Bryant > MJ argument, it's based on nothing but excuses and reasons why we can't percieve known facts as they are.

Just give it up. He's not better than Michael Jordan, and he's too old to do anything about that now. HE'S EVEN SAID HIMSELF THAT JORDAN IS THE GOAT...so just give it up and appreciate him for what he is, not for what you are trying to make excuses for him to appear to be.

gr824
03-29-2011, 08:55 PM
This is close to my ultimate point. Kobes percentages are not as good as Jordans, but considering the degree of difficulty of most of Bryant's, stats can only tell one side of the story. Unfortunately theres no stat for "difficulty".

Of course, TS% and eFG% attempt to compensate for the point you raise here and, in those measurements, Bryant looks significantly closer historically to Jordan than he does in 'raw' FG%. But even those barometers do not really address the issue you raise: How 'hard' are the majority of the shots taken [ contested/not contested; shorter or longer on average; beyond that, 3s or not 3s; and, further still, ridiculously deep 3s and/or shotclock-beating, percentage-busters to bail out 'reluctant' teammates versus toes-near-the-line 3s in transition, etc. ]. So-called "advanced stats" really only go so far; they are no true substitute for viewing the action ...

Naturally, there is another issue here, too, which I have raised before: Almost invariably, when Jordan shot 'through' contact and missed, he got the foul call from the officials [ often times, he got the call even when there was little or no contact; Michael was the original D. Wade when it comes to that phenomenon :eyebrow: ]. Of course, those shots do not show up on Jordan's 'ledger' as missed FG attempts and his shooting percentage is higher as a result of the referees 'taking care of him' [ even if one contends that all they did was enforce the rules ] ...

Bryant, on the other hand, gets 'fouled' all the time while shooting, with the officials simply swallowing their whistles and watching as many of those shots fall harmlessly off the rim and get logged as missed FGAs, thus lowering significantly Kobe's shooting percentage, not to mention his scoring 'potential', vis-a-vis Jordan's 'standard'. Label it the 'non-call' factor that erodes Bryant's FG% value for reasons largely beyond his control. Advanced stats certainly do not adjust for this reality, yet it is a significant factor: Assuming Bryant has had just a single 'non-call' per game throughout his career that resulted in a 'non-wiped-out' miss, his shooting percentage drops from a 'could-have-been' 48% to his existing 45.5%; if two 'non-calls' per game affected his shots and resulted in 'additional' misses, then 45.5% is the 'truth' when a more 'just' number of nearly 51% should have resulted had proper calls been made ...

The stats we all throw around may, indeed, be "official". But they do not necessarily accurately reflect the relative merits of the talents of the players to which they are 'attached'. Seeing the action that the figures document is first and foremost, the number-crunching, analysis, and all the rest of this hoopla being merely dubious, though perhaps frequently necessary, substitutes for witnessing all the games ...

whitemamba33
03-29-2011, 08:58 PM
This is close to my ultimate point. Kobes percentages are not as good as Jordans, but considering the degree of difficulty of most of Bryant's, stats can only tell one side of the story. Unfortunately theres no stat for "difficulty".

Huh?

Why are people acting like Jordan had nothing but dunks and wide open jump shots?

I'm convinced that most of you have never seen Jordan play...in a bulls jersey at least.

whitemamba33
03-29-2011, 09:01 PM
Of course, TS% and eFG% attempt to compensate for the point you raise here and, in those measurements, Bryant looks significantly closer historically to Jordan than he does in 'raw' FG%. But even those barometers do not really address the issue you raise: How 'hard' are the majority of the shots taken [ contested/not contested; shorter or longer on average; beyond that, 3s or not 3s; and, further still, ridiculously deep 3s and/or shotclock-beating, percentage-busters to bail out 'reluctant' teammates versus toes-near-the-line 3s in transition, etc. ]. So-called "advanced stats" really only go so far; they are no true substitute for viewing the action ...

Naturally, there is another issue here, too, which I have raised before: Almost invariably, when Jordan shot 'through' contact and missed, he got the foul call from the officials [ often times, he got the call even when there was little or no contact; Michael was the original D. Wade when it comes to that phenomenon :eyebrow: ]. Of course, those shots do not show up on Jordan's 'ledger' as missed FG attempts and his shooting percentage is higher as a result of the referees 'taking care of him' [ even if one contends that all they did was enforce the rules ] ...

Bryant, on the other hand, gets 'fouled' all the time while shooting, with the officials simply swallowing their whistles and watching as many of those shots fall harmlessly off the rim and get logged as missed FGAs, thus lowering significantly Kobe's shooting percentage, not to mention his scoring 'potential', vis-a-vis Jordan's 'standard'. Label it the 'non-call' factor that erodes Bryant's FG% value for reasons largely beyond his control. Advanced stats certainly do not adjust for this reality, yet it is a significant factor: Assuming Bryant has had just a single 'non-call' per game throughout his career that resulted in a 'non-wiped-out' miss, his shooting percentage drops from a 'could-have-been' 48% to his existing 45.5%; if two 'non-calls' per game affected his shots and resulted in 'additional' misses, then 45.5% is the 'truth' when a more 'just' number of nearly 51% should have resulted had proper calls been made ...

The stats we all throw around may, indeed, be "official". But they do not necessarily accurately reflect the relative merits of the talents of the players to which they are 'attached'. Seeing the action that the figures document is first and foremost, the number-crunching, analysis, and all the rest of this hoopla being merely dubious, though perhaps necessary, substitutes for witnessing the games ...

None of this is based on fact.

Bruno
03-29-2011, 09:06 PM
One thing nobody has mentioned, 3-points FGAs

Bryant has shot nearly 3,000 more 3's than Jordan ever did; that will take a big toll on that FG% difference as well.

Jordan could get easier shots than Kobe.

EDIT: My bad C-Style, just saw that you brought that up.

whitemamba33
03-29-2011, 09:11 PM
One thing nobody has mentioned, 3-points FGAs

Bryant has shot nearly 3,000 more 3's than Jordan ever did; that will take a big toll on that FG% difference as well.

Jordan could get easier shots than Kobe.

EDIT: My bad C-Style, just saw that you brought that up.

That's not a pro-Kobe point though, it's a knock on him. They both shot very similar percentages from 3 point land...but at least Jordan was good/smart enough to get better shots and not launch 3,000 more of a low percentage shot.

You can't reward Kobe for stupid play. Yes i'm sure it has effected his field goal percentage, but Kobe not being able to get a better shot or not being smart enough to look for one is FAR from a Kobe>Jordan argument.

lakers4sho
03-29-2011, 09:19 PM
Stats in and of themselves are meaningless. Unless you provide the context in which those metrics are measured against, they're just numbers.

And I'm one of the biggest supporters of apbr, just to make that clear.

gr824
03-29-2011, 09:26 PM
That's not a pro-Kobe point though, it's a knock on him. They both shot very similar percentages from 3 point land...but at least Jordan was good/smart enough to get better shots and not launch 3,000 more of a low percentage shot.

You can't reward Kobe for stupid play. Yes i'm sure it has effected his field goal percentage, but Kobe not being able to get a better shot or not being smart enough to look for one is FAR from a Kobe>Jordan argument.

Not really true ... Jordan was a notoriously bad 3-point shooter for nearly his entire career ...

Three of the four seasons that Jordan shot decently-to-well from behind the arc were the years in the Nineties that featured the shortened 3-point line designed to 'facilitate' [ read that: "boost" ] scoring ...

whitemamba33
03-29-2011, 09:26 PM
Stats in and of themselves are meaningless. Unless you provide the context in which those metrics are measured against, they're just numbers.

And I'm one of the biggest supporters of apbr, just to make that clear.

I could see it were a few stats here and there that we are arguing about. But Jordan owns pretty much every stat there is, and those numbers include the years when he was old and in the twilight of his career.

He also owns pretty much every advanced statistic there is as well.

There isn't enough context on God's green earth to turn this around. There just isn't.

People do Kobe a disservice by comparing him to MJ. Can't we just appreciate what is for what it is? He's done amazing things.

CLASSOF72
03-29-2011, 09:28 PM
One thing nobody has mentioned, 3-points FGAs

Bryant has shot nearly 3,000 more 3's than Jordan ever did; that will take a big toll on that FG% difference as well.

Jordan could get easier shots than Kobe.

EDIT: My bad C-Style, just saw that you brought that up.

This is a good point and a valid one as well.

whitemamba33
03-29-2011, 09:29 PM
Not really true ... Jordan was a notoriously bad 3-point shooter for nearly his entire career ...

Three of the four seasons that Jordan shot decently-to-well from behind the arc were the years in the Nineties that featured the shortened 3-point line designed to 'facilitate' [ read that: "boost" ] scoring ...

Well...I'm looking at the numbers right now lol. Jordan was a career 32.7% 3point shooter, and Kobe is a 33.9% career shooter.

You called Michael Jordan a "notoriously bad 3 point shooter" for his 32.7%. Are you sitting here and expecting me to believe that Kobe, having only shot about 1% higher, is not a bad 3 point shooter than? lol. If so, that is the most critical "1 percent" that i've ever heard of.

CLASSOF72
03-29-2011, 09:36 PM
That's not a pro-Kobe point though, it's a knock on him. They both shot very similar percentages from 3 point land...but at least Jordan was good/smart enough to get better shots and not launch 3,000 more of a low percentage shot.

You can't reward Kobe for stupid play. Yes i'm sure it has effected his field goal percentage, but Kobe not being able to get a better shot or not being smart enough to look for one is FAR from a Kobe>Jordan argument.

Everyone knows Kobe is a better jump shooter than Jordan, thus it makes sense he would take a lot more of this kind of shot. Jordan would of never handled the double and often triple teams Kobe has had to face if he had we'd probably would only be having the Kobe vcs LeBron threads.


It's funny how someone could call Kobe stupid and give off the impression that they might have a clue about anything at that point.

lakers4sho
03-29-2011, 09:39 PM
I could see it were a few stats here and there that we are arguing about. But Jordan owns pretty much every stat there is, and those numbers include the years when he was old and in the twilight of his career.

He also owns pretty much every advanced statistic there is as well.

There isn't enough context on God's green earth to turn this around. There just isn't.

People do Kobe a disservice by comparing him to MJ. Can't we just appreciate what is for what it is? He's done amazing things.

I'm not saying that Kobe is better than Jordan. Stats and accolades have settled that debate for me quite some time ago. I was merely responding to your assertion that people here are just giving "excuses and off-the-wall reasons" such as zone defense, etc. I don't think those are simply excuses. Many players have benefited from the lack of zone, for example. Things such as pace and overall league talent should also be taken into account.

lakers4sho
03-29-2011, 09:41 PM
Another example would be that 3PT% that you talked about a few posts above. One interesting thing to note was that from 1994-1997, the NBA shortened the 3pt distance, making it easier for guys like Jordan to make more 3s. Again, context.

gr824
03-29-2011, 09:44 PM
Well...I'm looking at the numbers right now lol. Jordan was a career 32.7% 3point shooter, and Kobe is a 33.9% career shooter.

You called Michael Jordan a "notoriously bad 3 point shooter" for his 32.7%. Are you sitting here and expecting me to believe that Kobe, having only shot about 1% higher, is not a bad 3 point shooter than? lol. If so, that is the most critical "1 percent" that i've ever heard of.

Nine of Jordan's 15 seasons, he shot 29% or below from 3-point land; in five of those nine, he shot well below 20%; yeah, "notoriously bad" ...

Bryant shot below 29% only twice and has never shot below 25% from distance [ plus he only got to shoot from the 'children's table' ( the short 3-point line ) for one year, his rookie year, whereas Jordan benefited from three such seasons of 'cheap' 3s ] ...

whitemamba33
03-29-2011, 09:44 PM
Everyone knows Kobe is a better jump shooter than Jordan, thus it makes sense he would take a lot more of this kind of shot. Jordan would of never handled the double and often triple teams Kobe has had to face if he had we'd probably would only be having the Kobe vcs LeBron threads.


It's funny how someone could call Kobe stupid and give off the impression that they might have a clue about anything at that point.

Think really hard about this for a second:

If Kobe Bryant shoots a lesser field goal percentage, a lesser TS%, and only has a 1% advantage in three point shooting, you think it is a pro-Kobe argument that Kobe took 3,000 more three pointers in his career? I'm sorry, but that 1% in career 3 point percentage isn't going to convince ANYBODY that Kobe is better. It's a complete fail. It only shows that Jordan was better able to get/make higher percentage shots. He knew the weaker parts of his game and played within them. Having shot 3,000 more for his career, you can't say the same about Kobe.

If i'm going to decide who's better, i'm going to go with the player that shoots a higher overall percentage and can get easier shots. Jordan got his points, he just got them easier.

whitemamba33
03-29-2011, 09:51 PM
Another example would be that 3PT% that you talked about a few posts above. One interesting thing to note was that from 1994-1997, the NBA shortened the 3pt distance, making it easier for guys like Jordan to make more 3s. Again, context.

That's great. I have no problem at all admitting that Kobe is a better 3 point shooter than Jordan. But it's REALLY the ONLY statistical advantage that Kobe has...AT ALL.

I have no problem addressing context when it's completly factual and proven. But naming a few guys and saying "these gaurds are shorter than these gaurds" doesn't cut it with me.

whitemamba33
03-29-2011, 09:52 PM
Nine of Jordan's 15 seasons, he shot 29% or below from 3-point land; in five of those nine, he shot well below 20%; yeah, "notoriously bad" ...

Bryant shot below 29% only twice and has never shot below 25% from distance [ plus he only got to shoot from the 'children's table' ( the short 3-point line ) for one year, his rookie year, whereas Jordan benefited from three such seasons of 'cheap' 3s ] ...

And what are there career averages?

I don't know if you know how an "average" works...

gr824
03-29-2011, 09:55 PM
None of this is based on fact.

All player evaluation and any discussion of GOAT is, by definition, a matter of perception and opinion; in other words, subjective. I am going by what I have seen on the court ...

There is not "fact" that Jordan is the GOAT; it is merely the consensus opinion, at least among the current crop of NBA fans ...

whitemamba33
03-29-2011, 09:57 PM
Think about it folks:

Would you rather have a player that has a lower PPG average and shoots harder shots

OR

A player that has a higher PPG average with MUCH MORE EFFICIENCY.

The answer is obvious.

lakers4sho
03-29-2011, 09:58 PM
That's great. I have no problem at all admitting that Kobe is a better 3 point shooter than Jordan. But it's REALLY the ONLY statistical advantage that Kobe has...AT ALL.

I have no problem addressing context when it's completly factual and proven. But naming a few guys and saying "these gaurds are shorter than these gaurds" doesn't cut it with me.

I have no problem with this.

There are a few historical stats that would be of interest [ to me at least ] in order to portray the landscape of the NBA in terms of numbers. Things such as the average guard DRTG during his era vs. Kobe's would definitely play a role in such comparisons. However I have no idea where to search for those metrics, so I'll settle with what I do have and conclude that MJ was/is better, based on perception and stat-wise :D

I still love Kobe to death though :cool:

gr824
03-29-2011, 09:59 PM
And what are there career averages?

I don't know if you know how an "average" works...

Apparently, you do not know a lot of things, including how to spell "their" ...

whitemamba33
03-29-2011, 09:59 PM
All player evaluation and any discussion of GOAT is, by definition, a matter of perception and opinion; in other words, subjective. I am going by what I have seen on the court ...

There is not "fact" that Jordan is the GOAT; it is merely the consensus opinion, at least among the current crop of NBA fans ...

But you can at least base your perception on fact....that is what constitutes a logical opinion.

whitemamba33
03-29-2011, 09:59 PM
Apparently, you do not know a lot of things, including how to spell "their" ...

And that is your argument?

No wonder you guys never win.

gr824
03-29-2011, 10:04 PM
And that is your argument?

My argument is clear to all, except, perhaps, you ...

whitemamba33
03-29-2011, 10:04 PM
I have no problem with this.

There are a few historical stats that would be of interest [ to me at least ] in order to portray the landscape of the NBA in terms of numbers. Things such as the average guard DRTG during his era vs. Kobe's would definitely play a role in such comparisons. However I have no idea where to search for those metrics, so I'll settle with what I do have and conclude that MJ was/is better, based on perception and stat-wise :D

I still love Kobe to death though :cool:

I love Kobe to death as well.

Don't get me wrong here, people. My goal isn't to try and degrade Kobe Bryant in any way. If anything, i'm in search of a hands down, no doubt about it reason why Kobe is better...i've just never EVER found one.

I proudly hang my Kobe jersey next to my Jordan jersey. But if Phil, Scottie, and even Kobe himself are going to admit that MJ is better, who am I to disagree?

whitemamba33
03-29-2011, 10:06 PM
My argument is clear to all, except, perhaps, you ...

I see...so you are just going to insult me instead lol.

Jordan owns in stats, achievements, and the opinion of his coach...

But Kobe fans have insults. OH...and 1 percent in 3 point shooting LOL.

gr824
03-29-2011, 10:08 PM
But you can at least base your perception on fact....that is what constitutes a logical opinion.

Yeah, the "fact" that I have watched hundreds of NBA games involving Bryant and seen Jordan play scores of times as well, not merely that I peruse a stat sheet or two ...

KillaInstinct24
03-29-2011, 10:10 PM
how many more threads like this will we see? why not just converge all of the mj/kobe discussions together? lol

gr824
03-29-2011, 10:11 PM
I see...so you are just going to insult me instead lol.

Jordan owns in stats, achievements, and the opinion of his coach...

But Kobe fans have insults. OH...and 1 percent in 3 point shooting LOL.

The insults started with you ...

whitemamba33
03-29-2011, 10:11 PM
Some interesting KOBE VS MJ stats before I go:

Percentage of points scored on free throws:
Michael Air Jordan: 22.9%
Kobe Bryant: 25.1%

Record in games with 30+ shot attempts
Michael Air Jordan: 72-57 (.558)
Kobe Bean Bryant: 46-61 (.368)

Seasons with at least 200 steals:
Michael Air Jordan: 6
Kobe Bryant: 0

Seasons with at least 150 steals:
Michael Air Jordan: 9
Kobe Bryant: 2

Seasons with at least 100 blocks:
Michael Air Jordan: 2
Kobe Bryant: 0

Seasons with at least 75 blocks:
Michael Air Jordan: 4
Kobe Bryant: 0

In NBA history, there are 13 50 point games with under 50% shooting, and Kobe Bryant is responsible for 6 of them.

Kobe Bryant also has:
2nd worst known game score for a player scoring 10+ points. (5-21 shooting)
2nd worst known game score for a player scoring 30+ points. (11-29)
Worst and 4th worst known game scores for a player scoring 40+ points. (17-47, 12-30)


Regular season
Seasons under 50% shooting
Kobe Bryant: 14
Michael Jordan: 9

Seasons under 48% shooting:
Kobe Bryant: 14
Michael Jordan: 5

Seasons over 50% shooting:
Kobe Bryant: 0
Michael Jordan: 6

Seasons over 52% shooting:
Kobe Bryant: 0
Michael Jordan: 4

I love you guys. We are all Lakers fans. But the answer here is obvious. And 1 percent in 3 point shooting isn't going to change that.

whitemamba33
03-29-2011, 10:12 PM
Yeah, the "fact" that I have watched hundreds of NBA games involving Bryant and seen Jordan play scores of times as well, not merely that I peruse a stat sheet or two ...

As have I...what's your point?

I have no problem with the point that you made, but at least some shred of evidence would have been nice lol.

whitemamba33
03-29-2011, 10:13 PM
The insults started with you ...

cool story bro.

whitemamba33
03-29-2011, 10:17 PM
I'm completly agreeing that Kobe is a better 3 point shooter.

With that being said...is that it? Is that supposed to convince me? You guys insult me and act like i'm "supposed" to know everything, but i'm looking for other proof and other evidence and other facts..and I get nothing.

If the public perception is that Jordan > Kobe, can you really blame them? Your point so far has revolved around 1%.

gr824
03-29-2011, 10:19 PM
cool story bro.

It's a "fact" Jack ... :cool:

gr824
03-29-2011, 10:22 PM
I'm completly agreeing that Kobe is a better 3 point shooter.

With that being said...is that it? Is that supposed to convince me? You guys insult me and act like i'm "supposed" to know everything, but i'm looking for other proof and other evidence and other facts..and I get nothing.

If the public perception is that Jordan > Kobe, can you really blame them? Your point so far has revolved around 1%.

Jordan's lifetime TS% is only about 1% [ 1.3% to be precise ] better than Bryant's, so the big deal there is what, by your reckoning ?

Jewelz0376
03-29-2011, 10:25 PM
I'm completly agreeing that Kobe is a better 3 point shooter.

With that being said...is that it? Is that supposed to convince me? You guys insult me and act like i'm "supposed" to know everything, but i'm looking for other proof and other evidence and other facts..and I get nothing.

If the public perception is that Jordan > Kobe, can you really blame them? Your point so far has revolved around 1%.

Maybe I missed it, but I haven't read one person in this thread that said Kobe is better than Jordan.... Most are merely explaining some of the differences in their games..

lakers4sho
03-29-2011, 10:27 PM
Jordan's lifetime TS% is only about 1% [ 1.3% to be precise ] better than Bryant's, so the big deal there is what, by your reckoning ?

Yes but there are also other stats in which Jordan exceeds Bryant.

CLASSOF72
03-29-2011, 10:37 PM
Some interesting KOBE VS MJ stats before I go:

Percentage of points scored on free throws:
Michael Air Jordan: 22.9%
Kobe Bryant: 25.1%

Record in games with 30+ shot attempts
Michael Air Jordan: 72-57 (.558)
Kobe Bean Bryant: 46-61 (.368)

Seasons with at least 200 steals:
Michael Air Jordan: 6
Kobe Bryant: 0

Seasons with at least 150 steals:
Michael Air Jordan: 9
Kobe Bryant: 2

Seasons with at least 100 blocks:
Michael Air Jordan: 2
Kobe Bryant: 0

Seasons with at least 75 blocks:
Michael Air Jordan: 4
Kobe Bryant: 0

In NBA history, there are 13 50 point games with under 50% shooting, and Kobe Bryant is responsible for 6 of them.

Kobe Bryant also has:
2nd worst known game score for a player scoring 10+ points. (5-21 shooting)
2nd worst known game score for a player scoring 30+ points. (11-29)
Worst and 4th worst known game scores for a player scoring 40+ points. (17-47, 12-30)


Regular season
Seasons under 50% shooting
Kobe Bryant: 14
Michael Jordan: 9

Seasons under 48% shooting:
Kobe Bryant: 14
Michael Jordan: 5

Seasons over 50% shooting:
Kobe Bryant: 0
Michael Jordan: 6

Seasons over 52% shooting:
Kobe Bryant: 0
Michael Jordan: 4

I love you guys. We are all Lakers fans. But the answer here is obvious. And 1 percent in 3 point shooting isn't going to change that.

Those are some good stats to present. I for one won't compare players from the same erra or not and i loved watching MJ play as much as I have Bryant the only thing that makes kobe better in my opinion is the fact that he's a Lakers player. I can't agree that Kobe's stupid or not smart and would love to see the two of these guys face off prime for prime.

gr824
03-29-2011, 10:37 PM
Yes but there are also other stats in which Jordan exceeds Bryant.

I did not say there weren't ... :shrug:

I was merely noting that if Kobe is not a significantly better 3-point shooter than Jordan simply because his '3-point numbers' are only about 1% better, then Jordan is not a significantly better overall shooter than Bryant when Michael's TS% is superior by only a similar amount ...

amos1er
03-29-2011, 10:45 PM
You have to factor in 3 pt%. Kobe takes more 3's than Jordan...When you adjust Kobe's fg% for three pointers, Kobe shoots over 50%.

lakers4sho
03-29-2011, 10:49 PM
I did not say there weren't ... :shrug:

I was merely noting that if Kobe is not a significantly better 3-point shooter than Jordan simply because his '3-point numbers' are only about 1% better, then Jordan is not a significantly better overall shooter than Bryant when Michael's TS% is superior by only a similar amount ...

Playoffs show a different picture :cool:

da wood
03-29-2011, 10:50 PM
I post to this kind of topic but tend to get shut down.....but my opinion to why kobe shooting percentage is way lower and this can be said for the league. Its simple......the perimeter deffender in kobes era are way longer and way more athletic than jordan had to play against. Jordan never had to go against guys that were 6'8, 6'9, 6'10. that were perimeter defenders. thats why for the most part Jordan was able to post up most of his opposition because there really weren't guys in the league that were as big and as athletic as jordan was. and when they put someone bigger on him he was able to go right around them.

lakers4sho
03-29-2011, 10:50 PM
You have to factor in 3 pt%. Kobe takes more 3's than Jordan...When you adjust Kobe's fg% for three pointers, Kobe shoots over 50%.

Why should we give him a pass for taking lower percentage shots?

tshwhhh
03-29-2011, 11:25 PM
i dont know if anyone mentioned this but kobe scored 81 points!!!!!
and also just watched the game again when he outscored the mavs 61 to 62, i think. THAT ONE WAS AMAZING!!!!

Basketball is entertainment at the end of the day, both of these guys are amazing and they are the same player in my eyes but in different ways. We all will compare and try to find little things that will set them appart, but all the good and bad things cancel eachother out. THey are the same player because they have been the only players in history to win and control games from a SG position.

One of my points is Bball is a tall mans game, 8 out of 10 top players of all time are 6' 9 or 6'10 and over in most peoples minds(Lists have been done, Kobe, before his career is over is in the conversation of top 5 even top 2 in some L.A. bars), Jordan the G.O.A.T this the other. They are two of a kind.

Obviously Jordan is the blueprint of Kobe, but Jordan didn't invent what he did, he borrowed it from some other players of their era's just like Kobe has publicly said he did. One player that they both remind me of as far as SG is Jerry West, that attacing type of SG with killer instinct, and im sure thats Jerry West got hist skillset from other players that were his type before him, but as we see through basketball history is these type of players are rare in any era.

My main point through what i said is to find the similarities between the greats, and the differences will cancel each other out, especially with Kobe and Jordan.

Keep in mind kobe scored 81 and 62, thats pretty amazing in any era, thats my 2 cents peace out

amos1er
03-29-2011, 11:27 PM
Why should we give him a pass for taking lower percentage shots?

Thats not what 3pt% is...remember, you get an extra point for making a three. So while your fg% goes down as a result of taking a more difficult shot, you do get the extra point to make up for it.

Kobe takes an average of 4.3 Three pointers a night this current season, and makes 1.4 of those...You then take 1.4 divided by 2 and get .7 because he is getting an extra point for every three he makes....You then add that .7 to his made field goals per game which is 9...You then get 9.7...You divide that 9.7 into the 19.9 that he attempts per game and you get 49%...Which is what Kobe's true field goal% is when adjusted for three pointers.

If you want to really get technical, you can calculate his true fg% which is based off shot attempts and points scored. :D

lakers4sho
03-29-2011, 11:53 PM
Thats not what 3pt% is...remember, you get an extra point for making a three. So while your fg% goes down as a result of taking a more difficult shot, you do get the extra point to make up for it.

Kobe takes an average of 4.3 Three pointers a night this current season, and makes 1.4 of those...You then take 1.4 divided by 2 and get .7 because he is getting an extra point for every three he makes....You then add that .7 to his made field goals per game which is 9...You then get 9.7...You divide that 9.7 into the 19.9 that he attempts per game and you get 49%...Which is what Kobe's true field goal% is when adjusted for three pointers.

I'm quite aware about eFG% and its computation.

Kobe's eFG during the regular season is 0.488 compared to Michael's 0.509.

In the playoffs, Kobe's eFG% is 0.481, while Michael's is 0.503.

So I don't know why you brought up this point, to be honest.


If you want to really get technical, you can calculate his true fg% which is based off shot attempts and points scored. :D

Ugh, that's the horrendous Point Per Shot that Doug Collins liked to parade around while commenting for TNT. That metric is flawed in so many ways.

jrands
03-29-2011, 11:56 PM
We can also rephrase it this way:

Colby would have never been caught gambling and stuck in a dilemma with the mafia.

:cool:

Huh, you're the first person I've ran into that has actually heard about this as well. Most people will just be like ???

lakers4sho
03-29-2011, 11:59 PM
Huh, you're the first person I've ran into that has actually heard about this as well. Most people will just be like ???

There are a few books written about this. Really interesting stuff.

Anilyzer
03-30-2011, 12:29 AM
Sigh.

Does anyone else see what's going on here? I mean, go look at the posts in this thread. Everyone here just dances around the facts and posts excuses and off-the-wall reasons why Jordan isn't the best player of all time. You are blaming it on height, blaming it on zone defense even though Jordan played in a handchecking area, trying to act like leaving to play a little baseball takes away from him being the best ever at basketball, trying to erase the first 3 seasons of Kobe's career....hell, you guys are even trying to say that it's somehow a good thing that Kobe tosses up bad shots because he's trying to "shoot in your face"....these are all sad, very sad.

Jordan has better stats, more achievements and awards, and dominates the public opinion (including both Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen). Anytime someone makes an Kobe Bryant > MJ argument, it's based on nothing but excuses and reasons why we can't percieve known facts as they are.

Just give it up. He's not better than Michael Jordan, and he's too old to do anything about that now. HE'S EVEN SAID HIMSELF THAT JORDAN IS THE GOAT...so just give it up and appreciate him for what he is, not for what you are trying to make excuses for him to appear to be.

Look... "White Mamba"... I understand that you want to play the cool contrarian and you think you got some good points and some of the stats are impressive and blah blah blah.

I doubt you'll even read this carefully, or answer any of my points, you'll just read the first line and then post something else--I understand, you think you're really really wright, so I guess that's understandable. But.here.goes:

1. The "no zone defense" and "illegal defense" rules that were in effect during the time of Jordan had to have made a HUGE difference statistic-wise. There's just no glossing it over.

2. If we're talking about G.O.A.T., that is, greatest NBA player of all time, then the fact that Jordan left the league (under suspicious circumstances) for a year and a half to make a FOOL of himself playing baseball, has to count against him.

As far as I'm concerned, Kobe Bryant is a very, very fine player, and is enroute to accomplishing as much or more as any player has ever accomplished in the league; he's literally a living legend.

Kobe can OBVIOUSLY be in the discussion for G.O.A.T.; now if you think it's Jordan, that is fine, you are probably in the majority.

But if we are talking G.O.A.T., we can look at the whole player as an individual--character and his entire career, as well as stats and championships.

The fact that Jordan was constantly photographed smoking cigars and playing golf, and then reportedly ran up VAST gambling debts, and then suddenly and mysteriously "retired" from the league to play baseball(???), which he incidentally sucked at, and then came back slightly diminished, again mysteriously without much explanation by the league, and eventually wound up his career playing part time with some crappy teams... all that HAS TO diminish Jordan in the G.O.A.T. conversation.

Kobe has had a PERFECT career so far... and at age 32 is catching up to Jordan's total career accomplishments already.

Yes, different players, different types, different teammates, different rules... but by any standard, Kobe deserves to be in the conversation, and if you're just going to yell at everyone that Kobe DOESN'T deserve at least consideration, then you're just clearly wrong, and should go worship your Jordan poster or whatever.

lakers4sho
03-30-2011, 12:42 AM
^I would have liked to agree with you, but...Kobe has "had a PERFECT career"? Really??

Jewelz0376
03-30-2011, 12:44 AM
Look... "White Mamba"... I understand that you want to play the cool contrarian and you think you got some good points and some of the stats are impressive and blah blah blah.

I doubt you'll even read this carefully, or answer any of my points, you'll just read the first line and then post something else--I understand, you think you're really really wright, so I guess that's understandable. But.here.goes:

1. The "no zone defense" and "illegal defense" rules that were in effect during the time of Jordan had to have made a HUGE difference statistic-wise. There's just no glossing it over.

2. If we're talking about G.O.A.T., that is, greatest NBA player of all time, then the fact that Jordan left the league (under suspicious circumstances) for a year and a half to make a FOOL of himself playing baseball, has to count against him.

As far as I'm concerned, Kobe Bryant is a very, very fine player, and is enroute to accomplishing as much or more as any player has ever accomplished in the league; he's literally a living legend.

Kobe can OBVIOUSLY be in the discussion for G.O.A.T.; now if you think it's Jordan, that is fine, you are probably in the majority.

But if we are talking G.O.A.T., we can look at the whole player as an individual--character and his entire career, as well as stats and championships.

The fact that Jordan was constantly photographed smoking cigars and playing golf, and then reportedly ran up VAST gambling debts, and then suddenly and mysteriously "retired" from the league to play baseball(???), which he incidentally sucked at, and then came back slightly diminished, again mysteriously without much explanation by the league, and eventually wound up his career playing part time with some crappy teams... all that HAS TO diminish Jordan in the G.O.A.T. conversation.

Kobe has had a PERFECT career so far... and at age 32 is catching up to Jordan's total career accomplishments already.

Yes, different players, different types, different teammates, different rules... but by any standard, Kobe deserves to be in the conversation, and if you're just going to yell at everyone that Kobe DOESN'T deserve at least consideration, then you're just clearly wrong, and should go worship your Jordan poster or whatever.

What does him retiring have to do with his legacy as a basketball player?? His personal life and his basketball career are two entirely different things...

What do you mean by kobe has had a perfect career...He's lost in the finals twice ...If your talking about he's been perfect from a personal life standpoint what about the rape charge?? Sure he didn't get charged with anything, and I don't believe he did it, but he still admitted to adultery...

How can you hold it against Jordan for having gambling problems...and not hold it against Kobe for cheating on his wife?? Especially when a case could be made the the extra media attention from Kobe's cheating could've been a distraction for the team...

Bruno
03-30-2011, 12:50 AM
One thing nobody has mentioned, 3-points FGAs

Bryant has shot nearly 3,000 more 3's than Jordan ever did; that will take a big toll on that FG% difference as well.

Jordan could get easier shots than Kobe.

EDIT: My bad C-Style, just saw that you brought that up.


That's not a pro-Kobe point though, it's a knock on him. They both shot very similar percentages from 3 point land...but at least Jordan was good/smart enough to get better shots and not launch 3,000 more of a low percentage shot.

You can't reward Kobe for stupid play. Yes i'm sure it has effected his field goal percentage, but Kobe not being able to get a better shot or not being smart enough to look for one is FAR from a Kobe>Jordan argument.

Never said it was a pro-Kobe point. I said "Jordan could get easier shots than Kobe" which I assumed to be a implied compliment towards Jordan.

IDB Josh M
03-30-2011, 01:09 AM
Huh, you're the first person I've ran into that has actually heard about this as well. Most people will just be like ???


There are a few books written about this. Really interesting stuff.

You can even go so far as to say Jordan's father died as a result his problems with the Mafia. It may be a conspiracy theory, but its a conspiracy theory that is plausible.

whitemamba33
03-30-2011, 01:42 AM
Never said it was a pro-Kobe point. I said "Jordan could get easier shots than Kobe" which I assumed to be a implied compliment towards Jordan.

Glad we are on the same page then.

Anilyzer
03-30-2011, 01:42 AM
^I would have liked to agree with you, but...Kobe has "had a PERFECT career"? Really??

I mean, straight out of Lower Merion into the NBA, All Star every year, scoring titles, first team all NBA, MVP, 5 titles and 7 Finals appearances, most points scored in a game since Chamberlain scored 100 (by far), Olympic Gold Medal, vast amount of respect from all the players, GMs and coaches in the league, moving up the list of all time scorers with a shot at #1, has revolutionized the game with his ability to create his own shot and make it from anywhere on the floor.

That's pretty perfect. The fact that he had sex with a woman who wasn't his wife doesn't really factor into it. The fact that she made up false accusations against him because she was mentally unstable also doesn't change anything; it changes nothing at all, unless we're going to use the mere suggestion of impropriety to try and smear Kobe.

Kobe is as clean as they come.

Anilyzer
03-30-2011, 01:55 AM
What does him retiring have to do with his legacy as a basketball player?? His personal life and his basketball career are two entirely different things...

What do you mean by kobe has had a perfect career...He's lost in the finals twice ...If your talking about he's been perfect from a personal life standpoint what about the rape charge?? Sure he didn't get charged with anything, and I don't believe he did it, but he still admitted to adultery...

How can you hold it against Jordan for having gambling problems...and not hold it against Kobe for cheating on his wife?? Especially when a case could be made the the extra media attention from Kobe's cheating could've been a distraction for the team...

No... when you're talking about G.O.A.T. you might look at the entire career if the decision is very close.

Jordan will always be that guy with two years missing out of the center of his career, the biggest NBA star in the world who "retired" suddenly to play baseball.

Whether he was just kind of a headcase who suddenly decided he wanted to be a baseball player, or whether his lawyers and league advisors had him shut it down because of some dark cloud involving the massive gambling debts, or whatever, the fact remains that Jordan ABANDONED the league for two years, abandoned his sport, to pursue his "lifelong dream of playing baseball."

Really? Your lifelong dream of playing baseball?

And all it really proved was that the Bulls could win without him... embarassingly.

Can ANYONE imagine Kobe just out the blue saying he wants to quit the Lakers and play freakin' BASEBALL??? How ******** is that.

Face it: if Jordan wasn't quietly suspended from the league for gambling, then he was a headcase who suddenly couldn't deal with it all and went for this baseball thing.

That's two years missing in action, minus two years from the prime of his career, AND it shows a lack of commitment to basketball (clearly) as well as character.

That doesn't prove Kobe's the goat, or that Jordan isn't. But how can that not factor into it? Can anyone imagine Kobe placing anything ahead of his pursuit of basketball greatness?

I mean the more I think about it, the more weird Jordan's "retirement" seems.

whitemamba33
03-30-2011, 02:17 AM
Look... "White Mamba"... I understand that you want to play the cool contrarian and you think you got some good points and some of the stats are impressive and blah blah blah.

I doubt you'll even read this carefully, or answer any of my points, you'll just read the first line and then post something else--I understand, you think you're really really wright, so I guess that's understandable. But.here.goes:

1. The "no zone defense" and "illegal defense" rules that were in effect during the time of Jordan had to have made a HUGE difference statistic-wise. There's just no glossing it over.

2. If we're talking about G.O.A.T., that is, greatest NBA player of all time, then the fact that Jordan left the league (under suspicious circumstances) for a year and a half to make a FOOL of himself playing baseball, has to count against him.

As far as I'm concerned, Kobe Bryant is a very, very fine player, and is enroute to accomplishing as much or more as any player has ever accomplished in the league; he's literally a living legend.

Kobe can OBVIOUSLY be in the discussion for G.O.A.T.; now if you think it's Jordan, that is fine, you are probably in the majority.

But if we are talking G.O.A.T., we can look at the whole player as an individual--character and his entire career, as well as stats and championships.

The fact that Jordan was constantly photographed smoking cigars and playing golf, and then reportedly ran up VAST gambling debts, and then suddenly and mysteriously "retired" from the league to play baseball(???), which he incidentally sucked at, and then came back slightly diminished, again mysteriously without much explanation by the league, and eventually wound up his career playing part time with some crappy teams... all that HAS TO diminish Jordan in the G.O.A.T. conversation.

Kobe has had a PERFECT career so far... and at age 32 is catching up to Jordan's total career accomplishments already.

Yes, different players, different types, different teammates, different rules... but by any standard, Kobe deserves to be in the conversation, and if you're just going to yell at everyone that Kobe DOESN'T deserve at least consideration, then you're just clearly wrong, and should go worship your Jordan poster or whatever.

I ADVISE ANYONE WHO IS USING "ZONE DEFENSE" AS AN EXCUSE OR THINKS THAT PERIMETER PLAYERS HAD IT EASIER IN JORDAN'S ERA TO READ THIS POST:

1. On the contrary, I will do much more than GLOSS over the zone defense comment. First of all, there are barely any teams that use a consistant zone defense. Some select teams go to it from time to time, but no team uses it all game every game. Zone defense was brought into the league to favour perimeter players, like Kobe Bryant. It was meant to discourage the inside game, mostly because there was really no way to defend Shaq otherwise. Below, you'll find a direct quote from Stu Jackson confirming this. If you look at 2009/2010 statistics, most star players do a huge majority of their scoring within 15 feet from the basket and free throws. Not one star player scored even half of their points from beyond 15 feet..so obviously zone defense isn't forcing these players to settle for outside shots as much you would hope. Now you might be asking.."Why should I take Whitemamba's word for it?" Well, my answer is: "DON'T". Ever hear of a guy named Tex Winter?

Tex Winter said. "Players today can get to the basket individually much easier."

In contrast, there have been rules that Jordan had to deal with that Kobe didn't. For a strong period of Jordan's career, there was no "restricted zone" under the basket for offensive fouls. This meant that the defender could stand anywhere near the basket and still draw the offensive foul. Also, handchecking was allowed. These days, you can't even put your hands on another player without getting called for a foul. This had a HUGE impact on the ability of perimeter players to get to the rim. Kobe Bryant didn't really break out as a star until the no hand checking rule was made. Look at the top scorers during the nineties and look at the top scorers now. In the nineties you had forwards/centers like Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, and Karl Malone making appearances in the top 5 ppg for individual seasons. Look at the top 5 scorers now...pretty much all perimeter players. Clearly the game has changed to favor perimeter players. Facts.

Also keep in mind, the illegal defense rule was brought in during the 2001-2002 season. Prior to that, defensive players were allowed to remain in the lane much longer...which would obviously make it tougher for players to score in the lane.

In addition, 2006-2007 saw the addition of the clear path to the basket foul...which was not in effect during Jordan's day.

I'll finish this "gloss over" with some quotes from some of the leagues most respected people how about MJ would have done in today's game:

The defensive rules, the hand checking, the ability to make contact on a guy in certain areas .... [have] all been taken away from the game. If Kobe could get 81, I think Michael could get 100 in today's game." - Scottie Pippen January 2006

"You can't even touch a guy now," says Charlotte coach Larry Brown, who also coached the 2004 Pistons defense... "The college game is much more physical than our game. I always tease Michael [Jordan], if he played today, he'd average 50."

Question for Clyde Drexler:
In the current league where there is no hand checking and no ruff play how much better would your numbers be?

Clyde Drexler: Oh, tremendously better, from shooting percentage to points per game everything would be up, and our old teams would score a lot more points, and that is saying something because we could score a lot back then. I do think there should be an asterisk next to some of these scoring leaders, because it is much different trying to score with a forearm in your face. It is harder to score with that resistance. You had to turn your back on guys defending you back in the day with all the hand checking that was going on. For guys who penetrate these days, it's hunting season. Yes, now you can play (floating)zone(legally), but teams rarely do.



"The defensive rules, the hand checking, the ability to make contact on a guy in certain areas .... [have] all been taken away from the game. If Kobe could get 81, I think Michael could get 100 in today's game." - Scottie Pippen January 2006

Craig Hodges is the Lakers shooting coach:
Q: If you could take one player in their prime, would you take Michael Jordan or Kobe?

A: M.J., all day. There's no comparison. M.J. could score 100 points in this era. You can't hand-check now. Imagine that trying to guard M.J. It would be crazy.


Here is a quote from Stu Jackson. As you can see, the rule changes were not put into effect with the intention of forcing outside shots:
Stu Jackson: No. The scoring increase was not our goal. Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.

During a 2007 L.A. Lakers pre-season broadcast, Phil Jackson was asked how he thought Michael Jordan would perform today, Phil said: "Michael would average 45 with these rules."


Is this enough for you, big guy? I wouldn't necessarily call this a "gloss over".

whitemamba33
03-30-2011, 02:27 AM
Look... "White Mamba"... I understand that you want to play the cool contrarian and you think you got some good points and some of the stats are impressive and blah blah blah.

I doubt you'll even read this carefully, or answer any of my points, you'll just read the first line and then post something else--I understand, you think you're really really wright, so I guess that's understandable. But.here.goes:

1. The "no zone defense" and "illegal defense" rules that were in effect during the time of Jordan had to have made a HUGE difference statistic-wise. There's just no glossing it over.

2. If we're talking about G.O.A.T., that is, greatest NBA player of all time, then the fact that Jordan left the league (under suspicious circumstances) for a year and a half to make a FOOL of himself playing baseball, has to count against him.

As far as I'm concerned, Kobe Bryant is a very, very fine player, and is enroute to accomplishing as much or more as any player has ever accomplished in the league; he's literally a living legend.

Kobe can OBVIOUSLY be in the discussion for G.O.A.T.; now if you think it's Jordan, that is fine, you are probably in the majority.

But if we are talking G.O.A.T., we can look at the whole player as an individual--character and his entire career, as well as stats and championships.

The fact that Jordan was constantly photographed smoking cigars and playing golf, and then reportedly ran up VAST gambling debts, and then suddenly and mysteriously "retired" from the league to play baseball(???), which he incidentally sucked at, and then came back slightly diminished, again mysteriously without much explanation by the league, and eventually wound up his career playing part time with some crappy teams... all that HAS TO diminish Jordan in the G.O.A.T. conversation.

Kobe has had a PERFECT career so far... and at age 32 is catching up to Jordan's total career accomplishments already.

Yes, different players, different types, different teammates, different rules... but by any standard, Kobe deserves to be in the conversation, and if you're just going to yell at everyone that Kobe DOESN'T deserve at least consideration, then you're just clearly wrong, and should go worship your Jordan poster or whatever.

Continuation:

2. We are talking about the better basketball player...not the person who made better life choices. If you are so desperate for arguments that you are going to try and hold this against him, be my guest. But do I really need to remind you that Kobe's past isn't necessarily filled with sunshine and rainbows? Leaving to persue other interests had nothing to do with Michael Jordan's abilities as a player.

You don't need to tell me that he's a very fine player. He's without a doubt my favorite player in the league. I've spent MANY hours on these forums supporting and defending hm. He has racked up tremendous accomplishments, and it is my opinion that he will go down as the greatest Laker ever. So you don't need to sit here and tell me how great he is, because I'm with you. None of this, however, puts him ahead of Michael...so i'm not sure why you are wasting my time with this.

You have to look at this discussion from my point of view: I'm using stats, accomplishments, and peer testimonials from Phil and Kobe themselves, among others. You are attacking Jordan outside of the basketball court. If i'm a logical person, am I going to say Kobe is a better basketball player than Jordan because Jordan smoked cigars and gambled? No..I hope you don't expect that from me. I never said he didn't deserve some sort of "consideration"..but nothing you said is enough to overcome everything that I've said.

whitemamba33
03-30-2011, 02:30 AM
Those are some good stats to present. I for one won't compare players from the same erra or not and i loved watching MJ play as much as I have Bryant the only thing that makes kobe better in my opinion is the fact that he's a Lakers player. I can't agree that Kobe's stupid or not smart and would love to see the two of these guys face off prime for prime.

lol at least you'll admit it. That alone is enough to earn my respect.

Now if only others could do the same.

rasajr23
03-30-2011, 03:41 AM
Differences:
During the Jordan era the Bulls had other players that were very good from behind the three point line which also lead to spreading the floor completely open for Jordan. This caused for a better shooting % in my opinion.

Since Kobe came into the league and has played for the Lakers he has never really had someone that he can trust behind the arc to make 3pt shots on the regular. He has taken it upon himself to take the last shot even if its with 3 seconds left on the clock and he's shooting it from half court.

When you look back at Jordans Bulls compared to Kobe's Lakers you will see a big difference in the quality of the starting 5/bench. I just feel that Jordan had a better supporting cast throughout the majority of his years with the Bulls and that translated into better overall #'s. Kobe struggled at times with bad to decent teams and made them competitive. He put the team on his back and carried them for years and yes that caused for his % to dip. I believe Kobe is the best overall player in the league and once its all said and done will be considered the best of all time.

If Jordan is considered the "Goat" than Kobe is the CHUPACABRA!!!!!!
CHUPACABRA= GOAT KILLER!!!

Anilyzer
03-30-2011, 03:51 AM
Continuation:

You don't need to tell me that he's a very fine player. He's without a doubt my favorite player in the league. I've spent MANY hours on these forums supporting and defending hm. He has racked up tremendous accomplishments, and it is my opinion that he will go down as the greatest Laker ever. So you don't need to sit here and tell me how great he is, because I'm with you. None of this, however, puts him ahead of Michael...so i'm not sure why you are wasting my time with this.


Yo, Kobe might be your "favorite player" but right now you are writing/thinking from kind of a hater-place in your mind. On some level, despite the fact that we are in the middle of another epic Laker 3peat and watching a true living legend every night, you are managing to dredge up all this Jordan stuff and vociferously arguing for Jordan >> Kobe.

It's about how you FEEL sometimes... seriously, I don't know how anyone could experience this Kobe-Lakers ride we're on right now, live in LA and say they're a Lakers fan, but then pine away for a Jordan who was out of the league ten years ago, arguing with everybody that "Jordan was so much better" blah blah.

It's like if you Megan Fox were your girlfriend, but every night you argue with her and tell her that Raquel Welch was the greatest of all time, not her, and that Raquel was way better.

:crazy:

Just relax, enjoy the ride bro. Nobody cares what we think anyway... give the legend some room to breathe and we can count up the chips after everything is done with.

Anilyzer
03-30-2011, 03:59 AM
I ADVISE ANYONE WHO IS USING "ZONE DEFENSE" AS AN EXCUSE OR THINKS THAT PERIMETER PLAYERS HAD IT EASIER IN JORDAN'S ERA TO READ THIS POST:

1. On the contrary, I will do much more than GLOSS over the zone defense comment. First of all, there are barely any teams that use a consistant zone defense. Some select teams go to it from time to time, but no team uses it all game every game. Zone defense was brought into the league to favour perimeter players, like Kobe Bryant. It was meant to discourage the inside game, mostly because there was really no way to defend Shaq otherwise. Below, you'll find a direct quote from Stu Jackson confirming this. If you look at 2009/2010 statistics, most star players do a huge majority of their scoring within 15 feet from the basket and free throws. Not one star player scored even half of their points from beyond 15 feet..so obviously zone defense isn't forcing these players to settle for outside shots as much you would hope. Now you might be asking.."Why should I take Whitemamba's word for it?" Well, my answer is: "DON'T". Ever hear of a guy named Tex Winter?

Tex Winter said. "Players today can get to the basket individually much easier."

In contrast, there have been rules that Jordan had to deal with that Kobe didn't. For a strong period of Jordan's career, there was no "restricted zone" under the basket for offensive fouls. This meant that the defender could stand anywhere near the basket and still draw the offensive foul. Also, handchecking was allowed. These days, you can't even put your hands on another player without getting called for a foul. This had a HUGE impact on the ability of perimeter players to get to the rim. Kobe Bryant didn't really break out as a star until the no hand checking rule was made. Look at the top scorers during the nineties and look at the top scorers now. In the nineties you had forwards/centers like Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, and Karl Malone making appearances in the top 5 ppg for individual seasons. Look at the top 5 scorers now...pretty much all perimeter players. Clearly the game has changed to favor perimeter players. Facts.

Also keep in mind, the illegal defense rule was brought in during the 2001-2002 season. Prior to that, defensive players were allowed to remain in the lane much longer...which would obviously make it tougher for players to score in the lane.

In addition, 2006-2007 saw the addition of the clear path to the basket foul...which was not in effect during Jordan's day.

I'll finish this "gloss over" with some quotes from some of the leagues most respected people how about MJ would have done in today's game:

The defensive rules, the hand checking, the ability to make contact on a guy in certain areas .... [have] all been taken away from the game. If Kobe could get 81, I think Michael could get 100 in today's game." - Scottie Pippen January 2006

"You can't even touch a guy now," says Charlotte coach Larry Brown, who also coached the 2004 Pistons defense... "The college game is much more physical than our game. I always tease Michael [Jordan], if he played today, he'd average 50."

Question for Clyde Drexler:
In the current league where there is no hand checking and no ruff play how much better would your numbers be?

Clyde Drexler: Oh, tremendously better, from shooting percentage to points per game everything would be up, and our old teams would score a lot more points, and that is saying something because we could score a lot back then. I do think there should be an asterisk next to some of these scoring leaders, because it is much different trying to score with a forearm in your face. It is harder to score with that resistance. You had to turn your back on guys defending you back in the day with all the hand checking that was going on. For guys who penetrate these days, it's hunting season. Yes, now you can play (floating)zone(legally), but teams rarely do.



"The defensive rules, the hand checking, the ability to make contact on a guy in certain areas .... [have] all been taken away from the game. If Kobe could get 81, I think Michael could get 100 in today's game." - Scottie Pippen January 2006

Craig Hodges is the Lakers shooting coach:
Q: If you could take one player in their prime, would you take Michael Jordan or Kobe?

A: M.J., all day. There's no comparison. M.J. could score 100 points in this era. You can't hand-check now. Imagine that trying to guard M.J. It would be crazy.


Here is a quote from Stu Jackson. As you can see, the rule changes were not put into effect with the intention of forcing outside shots:
Stu Jackson: No. The scoring increase was not our goal. Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.

During a 2007 L.A. Lakers pre-season broadcast, Phil Jackson was asked how he thought Michael Jordan would perform today, Phil said: "Michael would average 45 with these rules."


Is this enough for you, big guy? I wouldn't necessarily call this a "gloss over".

I'm just gonna say one thing on this... whenever I watch old footage of those games from the 90's it's always so laughable.

They spread the floor and all the defenders have to follow the offensive player--even the centers get dragged all the way out to the perimeter, while the main guy goes isolation on his defender. The other defenders will try to cheat back a step away from their defender to get a hand out, but if they leave their defender they'd get an illegal defense call. "Illegal defense"?? wtf? that seems ridiculous now.

It's VERY common now that if a player runs to another area of the court the defender doesn't follow him, they'll keep 4 defenders clustered near the key, or they'll position two or three defenders right in front of the ballhandler, ignoring bad shooters and centers who are too far from the basket.

LoL I watch those Jordan videos... so many times he is like just faking out one guy, and then hits like a post up fall away or whatever. Barkley too... Barkley would just back his defender ALL THE WAY DOWN into the key and turn around and lay it in. That could NEVER happen now. Just ridiculous.

Kobe plays his midrange game up above the rim, coupled with incredible footwork and still usually has a couple hands in his face when he shoots.

Anilyzer
03-30-2011, 04:12 AM
One more thing... I would concede that in some sense, statistically and maybe even athletically, that Jordan was "better", although that is very difficult to quantify.

However, I stand by what I've said, that while Kobe might not be as consistent or as high percentage as Jordan... his high points are higher. Kobe is in some sense a flawed player but can rise to incredible heights. Kobe's footwork and body control as well as his court sense are just way beyond Michael at this point. And as the "imperfect" and "flawed" championships mount, and Kobe plays like a warrior of steel every night, at some point we have to start wondering is.he.the.goat

whitemamba33
03-30-2011, 11:18 AM
I'm just gonna say one thing on this... whenever I watch old footage of those games from the 90's it's always so laughable.

They spread the floor and all the defenders have to follow the offensive player--even the centers get dragged all the way out to the perimeter, while the main guy goes isolation on his defender. The other defenders will try to cheat back a step away from their defender to get a hand out, but if they leave their defender they'd get an illegal defense call. "Illegal defense"?? wtf? that seems ridiculous now.

It's VERY common now that if a player runs to another area of the court the defender doesn't follow him, they'll keep 4 defenders clustered near the key, or they'll position two or three defenders right in front of the ballhandler, ignoring bad shooters and centers who are too far from the basket.

LoL I watch those Jordan videos... so many times he is like just faking out one guy, and then hits like a post up fall away or whatever. Barkley too... Barkley would just back his defender ALL THE WAY DOWN into the key and turn around and lay it in. That could NEVER happen now. Just ridiculous.

Kobe plays his midrange game up above the rim, coupled with incredible footwork and still usually has a couple hands in his face when he shoots.

That is fine...that is YOUR opinion. But not only did I destroy your point with actual facts, I also used the opinions of people that not only watched the games like you did, but also played the games as well. If Phil says Michael couild score 45 today..I'm going to believe him over you..and that is no offense to you.

Jewelz0376
03-30-2011, 11:22 AM
No... when you're talking about G.O.A.T. you might look at the entire career if the decision is very close.

Jordan will always be that guy with two years missing out of the center of his career, the biggest NBA star in the world who "retired" suddenly to play baseball.

Whether he was just kind of a headcase who suddenly decided he wanted to be a baseball player, or whether his lawyers and league advisors had him shut it down because of some dark cloud involving the massive gambling debts, or whatever, the fact remains that Jordan ABANDONED the league for two years, abandoned his sport, to pursue his "lifelong dream of playing baseball."

Really? Your lifelong dream of playing baseball?

And all it really proved was that the Bulls could win without him... embarassingly.

Can ANYONE imagine Kobe just out the blue saying he wants to quit the Lakers and play freakin' BASEBALL??? How ******** is that.

Face it: if Jordan wasn't quietly suspended from the league for gambling, then he was a headcase who suddenly couldn't deal with it all and went for this baseball thing.

That's two years missing in action, minus two years from the prime of his career, AND it shows a lack of commitment to basketball (clearly) as well as character.

That doesn't prove Kobe's the goat, or that Jordan isn't. But how can that not factor into it? Can anyone imagine Kobe placing anything ahead of his pursuit of basketball greatness?

I mean the more I think about it, the more weird Jordan's "retirement" seems.

When I judge the GOAT I look at what he did as a basketball player only..None of the other stuff that happened outside of basketball is relevant to me... If you want to use other things that's on you..

Unless some proof comes out that he had some kind of "secret suspension" or whatever I'm just going to assume it was because he had no desire to play the game anymore, which is fine...

whitemamba33
03-30-2011, 11:27 AM
Yo, Kobe might be your "favorite player" but right now you are writing/thinking from kind of a hater-place in your mind. On some level, despite the fact that we are in the middle of another epic Laker 3peat and watching a true living legend every night, you are managing to dredge up all this Jordan stuff and vociferously arguing for Jordan >> Kobe.

It's about how you FEEL sometimes... seriously, I don't know how anyone could experience this Kobe-Lakers ride we're on right now, live in LA and say they're a Lakers fan, but then pine away for a Jordan who was out of the league ten years ago, arguing with everybody that "Jordan was so much better" blah blah.

It's like if you Megan Fox were your girlfriend, but every night you argue with her and tell her that Raquel Welch was the greatest of all time, not her, and that Raquel was way better.

:crazy:

Just relax, enjoy the ride bro. Nobody cares what we think anyway... give the legend some room to breathe and we can count up the chips after everything is done with.

I'm not a hater, i'm just listing facts. People can't take that because it's not what they want to hear, but it's the truth. I'm not going to come here and pretend that he is the GOAT just because he's my favorite player. Just because I love the guy and I think he is amazing, doesn't mean that I have to put him in the #1 spot all time. If I was arguing with pure opinion, like most of you are, i'd agree with you. But i'm arguing with facts.

Honestly...look at your reasons. In this post alone, your reasons are that I shouldn't say Jordan is better because I'm a Lakers fan, and that Jordan has been retired for a while. That is a bias....and you need to understand that i'm not biased. I don't let my love for Kobe and the Lakers cloud my judgement and effect the truth.

The truth is, Jordan > Kobe. There aren't enough cigars, gambling debts, or baseball seasons in the world that can change what goes down on the basketball court. I love Kobe...like you said, he's a legend. But part of my love for him means that I dont need to make excuses to make him seem better than he is. He is what he is, and I'm content with that.

S & B Bleeder
03-30-2011, 11:48 AM
Anilyzer hit the nail on the head in this thread.


If you guys are going to compare for the GOAT then you need to take an ENTIRE players body of work into consideration.

That includes Jordan going Brett Favre and retiring 3 times (annoying as hell)

It also includes Jordan being the ultimate and selfish "me" player and "retiring" from basketball to play....baseball? :facepalm: I STILL remember that press conference with him talking about loving his playing time in "little league". Hahahaha. What a joke. I also remember him sucking out loud while STILL getting help from opposing teams catchers who would sometimes let him know what the pitch was going to be.

How did his team do in his absence? If kobe retired right now (Nearly the same age Jordan did) The Lakers would be screwed. No two ways about it. Sure, we'd make it to the playoffs as a 7th or 8th seed, but we'd get mopped in the first round.

Scottie was the All-Star game MVP and was in the running for league MVP all season long...and he almost led the Bulls to a Chip, if it werent for the absolute screwjob given to the bulls vs. the knicks (who went on to the finals vs. houston) by the refs.

The next year, Scottie was killing it again with the bulls being a top 3 team only to have Jordan "unretire" halfway through the season and literally ballhog/shoot the Bulls out of the playoffs vs. the Magic.

I love how Jordan worshippers fail to address the above....you'd have a 7th title if Jordan doesnt unretire and instead waits until the following offseason instead of screwing the chemistry up midway through.


Kobe, by the way, has many many great years left in him. He continues to round out his game so that there will be very little dropoff once his athleticism starts to fade. Kinda the same way jordan added the turnaround fade late in his career when his athleticism faded.

Unlike most people here, I got to watch Jordan all the time, and can say with 100% confidence that Kobe makes insane shots that Jordan couldnt have dreamt of making. Jordan WOULDNT have gotten 6 titles in this era, either. His opponents were absolute trash (go look up his SG opposition in the playoffs and finals), and if a second man came to double team him *whistled for "illegal defense"*. What a joke. Imagine Kobe with those rules.....Hell, Kobe is double teamed nearly EVERY touch of the ball. Its something he has to make adjustments for every second of every game he plays.


In the end, 24 will be greater than 23.

whitemamba33
03-30-2011, 11:59 AM
Differences:
During the Jordan era the Bulls had other players that were very good from behind the three point line which also lead to spreading the floor completely open for Jordan. This caused for a better shooting % in my opinion.

Since Kobe came into the league and has played for the Lakers he has never really had someone that he can trust behind the arc to make 3pt shots on the regular. He has taken it upon himself to take the last shot even if its with 3 seconds left on the clock and he's shooting it from half court.

When you look back at Jordans Bulls compared to Kobe's Lakers you will see a big difference in the quality of the starting 5/bench. I just feel that Jordan had a better supporting cast throughout the majority of his years with the Bulls and that translated into better overall #'s. Kobe struggled at times with bad to decent teams and made them competitive. He put the team on his back and carried them for years and yes that caused for his % to dip. I believe Kobe is the best overall player in the league and once its all said and done will be considered the best of all time.

If Jordan is considered the "Goat" than Kobe is the CHUPACABRA!!!!!!
CHUPACABRA= GOAT KILLER!!!

huh?

Kobe played with:

Glen Rice, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Smush Parker, Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Lindsay Hunter, Devean George, Isaiah Rider, Byron Russell, Sasha Vujacic, Chucky Atkins, Vladimire Radmanovic, Jordan Farmar...etc.

All these players shot a better 3pt percentage than Kobe. So your excuse that Kobe didn't have anyone to pass it to beyond the arc is a fail.

If you want to laugh, go look at the shooters that Jordan came into the league with. The highest shooting 3 pt shooters on Jordan's rookie team was 27%, and he only took 37 three pointers lol. I'm not saying Jordan didn't eventually play with some great shooters...but Kobe never played on a team worse 3 point shooting team than Jordan's rookie year. Also, as i've shown, Kobe has played with many players that were better 3 point shooters than him.

whitemamba33
03-30-2011, 12:01 PM
Anilyzer hit the nail on the head in this thread.


If you guys are going to compare for the GOAT then you need to take an ENTIRE players body of work into consideration.

That includes Jordan going Brett Favre and retiring 3 times (annoying as hell)

It also includes Jordan being the ultimate and selfish "me" player and "retiring" from basketball to play....baseball? :facepalm: I STILL remember that press conference with him talking about loving his playing time in "little league". Hahahaha. What a joke. I also remember him sucking out loud while STILL getting help from opposing teams catchers who would sometimes let him know what the pitch was going to be.

How did his team do in his absence? If kobe retired right now (Nearly the same age Jordan did) The Lakers would be screwed. No two ways about it. Sure, we'd make it to the playoffs as a 7th or 8th seed, but we'd get mopped in the first round.

Scottie was the All-Star game MVP and was in the running for league MVP all season long...and he almost led the Bulls to a Chip, if it werent for the absolute screwjob given to the bulls vs. the knicks (who went on to the finals vs. houston) by the refs.

The next year, Scottie was killing it again with the bulls being a top 3 team only to have Jordan "unretire" halfway through the season and literally ballhog/shoot the Bulls out of the playoffs vs. the Magic.

I love how Jordan worshippers fail to address the above....you'd have a 7th title if Jordan doesnt unretire and instead waits until the following offseason instead of screwing the chemistry up midway through.


Kobe, by the way, has many many great years left in him. He continues to round out his game so that there will be very little dropoff once his athleticism starts to fade. Kinda the same way jordan added the turnaround fade late in his career when his athleticism faded.

Unlike most people here, I got to watch Jordan all the time, and can say with 100% confidence that Kobe makes insane shots that Jordan couldnt have dreamt of making. Jordan WOULDNT have gotten 6 titles in this era, either. His opponents were absolute trash (go look up his SG opposition in the playoffs and finals), and if a second man came to double team him *whistled for "illegal defense"*. What a joke. Imagine Kobe with those rules.....Hell, Kobe is double teamed nearly EVERY touch of the ball. Its something he has to make adjustments for every second of every game he plays.


In the end, 24 will be greater than 23.

If i'm going to ignore facts and evidence and just go on what people say, I'm going to side with the man that has coached both of the players.

S & B Bleeder
03-30-2011, 12:09 PM
Oh, and let us not forget:

The Washington Wizard years. :facepalm:

What a farce and totally laughable all the way around. Jordan had a few good games, but routinely got PWNED by his opposition. I vividly remember Kobe dropping a 43 point bomb on him in about 3 Quarters of play.

He may have averaged 20 with his turnaround fadeaway, but he gave up just as many, if not MORE points to the no name clown he was guarding. Completely pathetic.

whitemamba33
03-30-2011, 12:15 PM
lol and it cracks me up that you guys will attack the off-the-court life of Michael, and NEVER EVEN ONCE bring up the rape charges and the fact that Kobe obviously cheated on his wife and admitted it to the world. NEVER ONCE bring up the fact that his feud with Shaq lead us to 3 seasons of terrible basketball.

Do you guys see how biased you are? You aren't even fair at your own game lol.

I'm done here. I've destroyed every point with facts and evidence. I've brought up the stats, which were unquestionable. I brought advanced stats, which again highly favored Jordan. I brought up accomplishments/awards, Jordan again. And I shot down the notion that the game today is harder on perimeter players than it was in Jordan's day. I've left you with no other choice but to argue meaningless garbage that happens off of the basketball court, and even then you ignore what Kobe has done wrong.

If anyone has a solid, 100% factual piece of evidence that makes Kobe better than Jordan, i'd love for you to pm me so we can discuss it like rational human beings. But i'm not about to sit here and discuss why MJ getting photographed smoking a cigar makes him less of a basketball player lol.

Peace.

whitemamba33
03-30-2011, 12:19 PM
Oh, and let us not forget:

The Washington Wizard years. :facepalm:

What a farce and totally laughable all the way around. Jordan had a few good games, but routinely got PWNED by his opposition. I vividly remember Kobe dropping a 43 point bomb on him in about 3 Quarters of play.

He may have averaged 20 with his turnaround fadeaway, but he gave up just as many, if not MORE points to the no name clown he was guarding. Completely pathetic.

BTW:

The man scored 43 points at age 40 while playing on one of the worst teams in the league and with basically no knees.

If this doesn't prove that Jordan in his prime would dominate in today's game, I dont know what does.

Peace

Bleu_Boi11
03-30-2011, 12:48 PM
kobe has much better defenders and jordan had no one to be compared to during his career magic and bird were old and no one else was there kobe has lebron dwade nash (tmac and iverson during the earlier part of careers) and etc.

S & B Bleeder
03-30-2011, 12:50 PM
BTW:

The man scored 43 points at age 40 while playing on one of the worst teams in the league and with basically no knees.

If this doesn't prove that Jordan in his prime would dominate in today's game, I dont know what does.

Peace

1 game, against a hobbled kerry kittles-who was extra strength suck fully healthy, btw.

Again, he got his 19ppg with his fadeaway against the garbage of the league, but he was mercilessly owned and humiliated by the top 15 sg's (and sf's when he switched here and there) routinely. This fact cannot be disputed, and was witnessed by THE WORLD when Favre Jordan unretired. Again.

Jewelz0376
03-30-2011, 03:25 PM
Oh, and let us not forget:

The Washington Wizard years. :facepalm:

What a farce and totally laughable all the way around. Jordan had a few good games, but routinely got PWNED by his opposition. I vividly remember Kobe dropping a 43 point bomb on him in about 3 Quarters of play.

He may have averaged 20 with his turnaround fadeaway, but he gave up just as many, if not MORE points to the no name clown he was guarding. Completely pathetic.

Yea the guy was 40 yrs old dropping 20 a game...how pathetic :rolleyes:

Get outta here with that..who are you and what have you done to call what jordan did in the league at 40 pathetic??

kinnikuman24
03-30-2011, 04:10 PM
one huge difference i always noticed in their games is that jordan attacked the rim to score, kobe often times gets frustrated and tries to force the refs to call a foul. so kobe will go to the hole and just throw his arms up and scream and you can tell the refs will start to swallow the whistle because all kobe is trying to do is get a call and not really trying to score. jordan on the other hand would always look to score and if the foul was called it was a bonus. id say rose or iverson are players that go in there trying to score every time and just bounce back up if they get bumped, some people say wade attacks the hole with abandon but the he likes to add drama to his fall, and rub his knee or back or whatever for waaaayy too long, like hes trying to show us how tough he is.

kArSoN RyDaH
03-30-2011, 05:58 PM
IDGAF what anyone says. Give me Kobe "The Black Mamba" Bryant over any other NBA player in history and we'll get the job done.

First, I can trust Kobe with my life to go out there for his entire career and give 200% and NEVER EVER leave the game to go play another sport.

Look at your stats. I'll look at Kobe's and take him any given day.

kArSoN RyDaH
03-30-2011, 06:01 PM
Jordan walked away from the game TWICE in fear of not being able to get a 4Peat.

Kobe would never walk away from the game while he's on top. EVER!

Anilyzer
03-30-2011, 06:33 PM
lol and it cracks me up that you guys will attack the off-the-court life of Michael, and NEVER EVEN ONCE bring up the rape charges and the fact that Kobe obviously cheated on his wife and admitted it to the world. NEVER ONCE bring up the fact that his feud with Shaq lead us to 3 seasons of terrible basketball.

Do you guys see how biased you are? You aren't even fair at your own game lol.

I'm done here. I've destroyed every point with facts and evidence. I've brought up the stats, which were unquestionable. I brought advanced stats, which again highly favored Jordan. I brought up accomplishments/awards, Jordan again. And I shot down the notion that the game today is harder on perimeter players than it was in Jordan's day. I've left you with no other choice but to argue meaningless garbage that happens off of the basketball court, and even then you ignore what Kobe has done wrong.

If anyone has a solid, 100% factual piece of evidence that makes Kobe better than Jordan, i'd love for you to pm me so we can discuss it like rational human beings. But i'm not about to sit here and discuss why MJ getting photographed smoking a cigar makes him less of a basketball player lol.

Peace.

You've destroyed nothing.

Look, personal life aside, the fact that Jordan has a big two year whole in the middle of his career simply has to affect the GOAT discussion, especially if there are other players who are very close or better in some ways.

It doesn't matter if it was because of gambling debts or some kind of impropriety, or if he was just kind of a headcase who totally quit midway through his career because he felt like playing some baseball. That's not the point.

And as far as the cherry-picked quotes and statistics, you can't call those definitive facts. We both know there are quite a lot of people who say the opposite--that the lack of illegal defense rules, and the new hybrid defenses which have evolved in the past 10 years, would make it veeerrrrrryyy difficult for a player like Jordan to play clear out isolation ball in half court every play and average those kind of numbers. There's just no denying it. Again, like Phil said, it's kind of apples and oranges:

1. Kobe and Jordan are different types of players with different abilities

2. Rules are different

3. Opposition is different

I mean, I've seen Kobe rain down perfect golden 3-pointers from 28 feet time after time in a close playoff game, with his defender fiercely guarding him way beyond the arc. Jordan, in that same situation, would've been dribbling around and probably driven to the basket to get "create contact" or something like that. Totally different players.

whitemamba33
03-30-2011, 06:51 PM
You've destroyed nothing.

Look, personal life aside, the fact that Jordan has a big two year whole in the middle of his career simply has to affect the GOAT discussion, especially if there are other players who are very close or better in some ways.

It doesn't matter if it was because of gambling debts or some kind of impropriety, or if he was just kind of a headcase who totally quit midway through his career because he felt like playing some baseball. That's not the point.

And as far as the cherry-picked quotes and statistics, you can't call those definitive facts. We both know there are quite a lot of people who say the opposite--that the lack of illegal defense rules, and the new hybrid defenses which have evolved in the past 10 years, would make it veeerrrrrryyy difficult for a player like Jordan to play clear out isolation ball in half court every play and average those kind of numbers. There's just no denying it. Again, like Phil said, it's kind of apples and oranges:

1. Kobe and Jordan are different types of players with different abilities

2. Rules are different

3. Opposition is different

I mean, I've seen Kobe rain down perfect golden 3-pointers from 28 feet time after time in a close playoff game, with his defender fiercely guarding him way beyond the arc. Jordan, in that same situation, would've been dribbling around and probably driven to the basket to get "create contact" or something like that. Totally different players.

I argue facts.

Message me when you get some.

If you want to count personal choices and his time away from the game against him, be my guest. As long as you understand that Jordan has stats, awards, accomplishments, public opinion, and the opinion of his peers.

Anilyzer
03-30-2011, 09:23 PM
I argue facts.

Message me when you get some.

If you want to count personal choices and his time away from the game against him, be my guest. As long as you understand that Jordan has stats, awards, accomplishments, public opinion, and the opinion of his peers.

*sigh*

I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. Look, let me explain:

Jordan played 15 seasons. Of those 15 seasons, he only played 12 really good years.

The 1994-1995 season he only played 17 games when he came out of retirement. And '01-'02 and '02-'03 when he was in Washington he was just a shadow of his former self. And that's not even mentioning that he also missed most of 1985-1986 with injury, only playing 18 games.

Now look at Kobe Bryant:

Kobe has played 15 rock solid seasons, going from a star rookie on a perennial playoff team, to All Star, to endless titles and playoff battles, to MVP, to living legend of the game who keeps getting better and oh yeah is also in the middle of yet another potential 3-peat season right now.

So, Kobe is only 32 and he has already played 3 more all star caliber seasons than Jordan has (Jordan got voted in with Washington the way Yao Ming got voted in this year).

The fact that Jordan BAILED for 2 seasons, to play freakin' BASEBALL, the fact that he didn't have enough commitment to the sport to stick with it in his prime, means that his career is less impressive--which therefore diminishes his legacy somewhat and his claim to GOAT (Greatest NBA Player of All Time).

Even if Kobe only plays two more years after this one, he will have played 5 more NBA All Star caliber seasons at the top of his game than Jordan did. And that is a conservative estimate.

That means that Kobe played in, and performed at an absolutely world class level, flawless professional, generally regarded as the best player on the planet, for 41% more regular season games than MJ did.

How can that not factor in? I mean, I know you are really into Mj or whatever, but c'mon, that has to at least be a factor. And that is not even mentioning the headcase rap with the baseball fling, or the dark cloud about the possible gambling involvement.

enserio
03-30-2011, 09:24 PM
I'm completly agreeing that Kobe is a better 3 point shooter.

With that being said...is that it? Is that supposed to convince me? You guys insult me and act like i'm "supposed" to know everything, but i'm looking for other proof and other evidence and other facts..and I get nothing.

If the public perception is that Jordan > Kobe, can you really blame them? Your point so far has revolved around 1%.

Nobody but gr8 "insulted" you, but that was after you told him he didn't understand averages.

I appreciate you keeping it real up in here, though. Post #2 and a couple of yours are door-closing arguments.

I have a feeling that history and sentiment will always place Kobe just ever so slightly below Jordan, no mater what.

whitemamba33
03-30-2011, 10:13 PM
Nobody but gr8 "insulted" you, but that was after you told him he didn't understand averages.

I appreciate you keeping it real up in here, though. Post #2 and a couple of yours are door-closing arguments.

I have a feeling that history and sentiment will always place Kobe just ever so slightly below Jordan, no mater what.

I'll agree that there is a certain sentimentality with Jordan. And if the stats were ALMOST close, and Kobe had been the #1 option on ALMOST 6 NBA championship teams, and ALMOST been league MVP 5 times etc etc...I'd put some value in the "sentiment" argument and that is something I'd really have to evaluate. Kobe just isn't going to get there. He'll have a great career, go down as one of the greats, and he'll have his number in the rafters some day. I just don't see the need to try and force him into the one honor that he can't have.

whitemamba33
03-30-2011, 10:27 PM
*sigh*

I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. Look, let me explain:

Jordan played 15 seasons. Of those 15 seasons, he only played 12 really good years.

The 1994-1995 season he only played 17 games when he came out of retirement. And '01-'02 and '02-'03 when he was in Washington he was just a shadow of his former self. And that's not even mentioning that he also missed most of 1985-1986 with injury, only playing 18 games.

Now look at Kobe Bryant:

Kobe has played 15 rock solid seasons, going from a star rookie on a perennial playoff team, to All Star, to endless titles and playoff battles, to MVP, to living legend of the game who keeps getting better and oh yeah is also in the middle of yet another potential 3-peat season right now.

So, Kobe is only 32 and he has already played 3 more all star caliber seasons than Jordan has (Jordan got voted in with Washington the way Yao Ming got voted in this year).

The fact that Jordan BAILED for 2 seasons, to play freakin' BASEBALL, the fact that he didn't have enough commitment to the sport to stick with it in his prime, means that his career is less impressive--which therefore diminishes his legacy somewhat and his claim to GOAT (Greatest NBA Player of All Time).

Even if Kobe only plays two more years after this one, he will have played 5 more NBA All Star caliber seasons at the top of his game than Jordan did. And that is a conservative estimate.

That means that Kobe played in, and performed at an absolutely world class level, flawless professional, generally regarded as the best player on the planet, for 41% more regular season games than MJ did.

How can that not factor in? I mean, I know you are really into Mj or whatever, but c'mon, that has to at least be a factor. And that is not even mentioning the headcase rap with the baseball fling, or the dark cloud about the possible gambling involvement.

Listen, we can go back and forth all day on this topic. So i'm going to simply things.

Are you expecting me to believe that Kobe Bryant is a better basketball player than Michael Jordan because Kobe has played more games and didn't leave the NBA for two seasons?

If you are, I'm telling you right now, there is no way in hell that I can do that. No way in hell. MJ beats Kobe pretty much across the board in stats, has 4 more league MVPS, has 4 more finals MVPS, and even their coach agrees that MJ is better. So yes I am "factoring in" what you are saying, but it's nowhere near enough to overcome everything that i'm saying. Any non-Laker fan IN THE WORLD will tell you that.

So like I said, if your answer is "yes" to the above question...then there is nothing more to be said.

Phil Jackson:
"Kobe has patterned himself after Michael, and there are a lot of identical things there,” Jackson told the Los Angeles Times, “but it's one thing to hope to be like him, it's another thing to be like him."

Phil Jackson's opinion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>yours.

Anilyzer
03-30-2011, 10:51 PM
Listen, we can go back and forth all day on this topic. So i'm going to simply things.

Are you expecting me to believe that Kobe Bryant is a better basketball player than Michael Jordan because Kobe has played more games and didn't leave the NBA for two seasons?

If you are, I'm telling you right now, there is no way in hell that I can do that. No way in hell. MJ beats Kobe pretty much across the board in stats, has 4 more league MVPS, has 4 more finals MVPS, and even their coach agrees that MJ is better. So yes I am "factoring in" what you are saying, but it's nowhere near enough to overcome everything that i'm saying. Any non-Laker fan IN THE WORLD will tell you that.

So like I said, if your answer is "yes" to the above question...then there is nothing more to be said.

Phil Jackson:
"Kobe has patterned himself after Michael, and there are a lot of identical things there,” Jackson told the Los Angeles Times, “but it's one thing to hope to be like him, it's another thing to be like him."

Phil Jackson's opinion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>yours.


Phil isn't exactly saying that Jordan is the GOAT and that Kobe isn't. He's being slightly slippery there.

In any case, how we quantify what makes one player the GOAT is definitely up for question.

It's somewhat obvious that Jordan was the most hyped and marketed player in history... and obviously a big part of his game was taking it to the hoop and "creating contact" so he could walk to the line, time after time, and make free throws. Kobe just doesn't get that kind of treatment from the refs. Jordan had SOOOO much respect from the refs, that if he drove it to the hoop and there was contact, he was going to get FTs if the shot didn't go in. It's undeniable that that would affect the stats. And as mentioned, the defense rules were different. Those aren't trivialities... those are real facts that affect how we weigh the stats.

I think I've mentioned that Kobe and Jordan have different skillsets... they are different type players in a way. To me, Jordan is more like DWade... when I look at Wade, he reminds me more of Jordan. And no doubt Wade is a truly excellent player, and we just saw him take Kobe off the dribble very recently.

Kobe is more like a cross between say, Larry Bird, Dr J and David Thompson, with some Jerry West thrown in, and maybe some Dennis Rodman's thrown in as well for the freakish strength and body control.

Look, at the end of the day, when we want to say "who was the GOAT?" we're going to have to look at the whole career. Unless you just want to say that Jordan was the best ever for 3 or 4 years in the 90's, and that no one else could ever approach that level. It's transparently clear that during the second 3-peat he wasn't as good, and that he got TONS of respect from the refs, and that we were all being told, literally, by the league, on a daily basis, that this guy was the best ever. And the Washington Wizard years were a travesty.

To me, Kobe seemed to never get the acclaim that he should have... even during the Shaq years, Kobe always got downplayed. This goes back to his being a flawed imperfect player in some ways. But he keeps having enough magical moments that the championships keeping piling up.

Ultimately, if Kobe is the greatest LAKER of all time, he will also be the Greatest NBA Player of All Time as well, because if

Kobe >> Magic, Wilt, West, Kareem, Baylor

then Kobe gets it. Because no WAY can you say Jordan is better than all those guys.

So the battle is really for Kobe if he can be the greatest LAKER of all time. Chicago can just suck it.

New Power House
03-30-2011, 11:11 PM
Listen, we can go back and forth all day on this topic. So i'm going to simply things.

Are you expecting me to believe that Kobe Bryant is a better basketball player than Michael Jordan because Kobe has played more games and didn't leave the NBA for two seasons?

If you are, I'm telling you right now, there is no way in hell that I can do that. No way in hell. MJ beats Kobe pretty much across the board in stats, has 4 more league MVPS, has 4 more finals MVPS, and even their coach agrees that MJ is better. So yes I am "factoring in" what you are saying, but it's nowhere near enough to overcome everything that i'm saying. Any non-Laker fan IN THE WORLD will tell you that.

So like I said, if your answer is "yes" to the above question...then there is nothing more to be said.

Phil Jackson:
"Kobe has patterned himself after Michael, and there are a lot of identical things there, Jackson told the Los Angeles Times, but it's one thing to hope to be like him, it's another thing to be like him."

Phil Jackson's opinion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>yours.

MJ is MJ. His legacy is on the table and so far in the modern era of the NBA,he is until now the best! The greatest player in terms of number of rings and the one no one will dare to reach is the Boston's center Russell with just 11! Kobe is still making his own legacy and that is his advantage for his era. He is not done and according to him now he is eying Russell's legacy as his ultimate mark. I personally think that he might not reach that far, I see him passing by his idol with at least 7 rings before he is done. Now the MVPs is going to be very difficult,because the NBA's mafia hates his guts and he has been disrespected at least 4 times for that honor. SO if Kobe gets seven rings he will make his case for the second best in the history of the NBA . He also can reach or pass the best scorer Kareem. Also he will end being the second man that scored more points in an NBA game with 81 points! He is not done yet and he might extend his carrier if the Lakers next year make the move and steal Howard. These two guys together can bring some rings to us or not? Remember that the number of rings will make the cut. Then the Zen will have to come out of his cave in Montana and crown Kobe's greatness over MJ.

MJ's
Honors: Six-time NBA champion (1991-93, 1996-98); MVP (1988, '91, '92, '96, '98); 10-time All-NBA First Team (1987-93, 1996-98); All-NBA Second Team (1985); Defensive Player of the Year (1988); Nine-time All-Defensive First Team (1988-93, 1996-98); Rookie of the Year (1985); 14-time All-Star; All-Star MVP (1988, '96, '98); One of 50 Greatest Players in NBA History ('96); Olympic gold medalist (1984, '92).
Let's watch this closely!

Anilyzer
03-31-2011, 12:17 AM
MJ is MJ. His legacy is on the table and so far in the modern era of the NBA,he is until now the best! The greatest player in terms of number of rings and the one no one will dare to reach is the Boston's center Russell with just 11! Kobe is still making his own legacy and that is his advantage for his era. He is not done and according to him now he is eying Russell's legacy as his ultimate mark. I personally think that he might not reach that far, I see him passing by his idol with at least 7 rings before he is done. Now the MVPs is going to be very difficult,because the NBA's mafia hates his guts and he has been disrespected at least 4 times for that honor. SO if Kobe gets seven rings he will make his case for the second best in the history of the NBA . He also can reach or pass the best scorer Kareem. Also he will end being the second man that scored more points in an NBA game with 81 points! He is not done yet and he might extend his carrier if the Lakers next year make the move and steal Howard. These two guys together can bring some rings to us or not? Remember that the number of rings will make the cut. Then the Zen will have to come out of his cave in Montana and crown Kobe's greatness over MJ.

MJ's
Honors: Six-time NBA champion (1991-93, 1996-98); MVP (1988, '91, '92, '96, '98); 10-time All-NBA First Team (1987-93, 1996-98); All-NBA Second Team (1985); Defensive Player of the Year (1988); Nine-time All-Defensive First Team (1988-93, 1996-98); Rookie of the Year (1985); 14-time All-Star; All-Star MVP (1988, '96, '98); One of 50 Greatest Players in NBA History ('96); Olympic gold medalist (1984, '92).
Let's watch this closely!

It's true. If Kobe was marketed as much as Jordan, and was the darling of the league the way Jordan was, Kobe would almost certainly have 5 League MVPs, and would also probably have six Rings ALREADY and going for # seven now. Actually, both the Detroit Finals and the Boston Finals were such devastating tough upset losses, with such horrible officiating it was ridiculous. It's not unrealistic to think that if Kobe got just a bit of "Jordan Rules" on his side he'd have 7 rings already and be going for #8.

I base it on the level of play though. To me, Jordan always seemed to go back to his bread and butter, over and over, very repetitive. Kobe seems to have an infinite number of weapons in his magical bag of tricks. Kobe seems to take the game to higher and higher levels. And from long range, Kobe makes his own shot and knocks it down with authoritay in a way that I never really saw Jordan do.

whitemamba33
03-31-2011, 02:53 AM
Phil isn't exactly saying that Jordan is the GOAT and that Kobe isn't. He's being slightly slippery there.

In any case, how we quantify what makes one player the GOAT is definitely up for question.

It's somewhat obvious that Jordan was the most hyped and marketed player in history... and obviously a big part of his game was taking it to the hoop and "creating contact" so he could walk to the line, time after time, and make free throws. Kobe just doesn't get that kind of treatment from the refs. Jordan had SOOOO much respect from the refs, that if he drove it to the hoop and there was contact, he was going to get FTs if the shot didn't go in. It's undeniable that that would affect the stats. And as mentioned, the defense rules were different. Those aren't trivialities... those are real facts that affect how we weigh the stats.

I think I've mentioned that Kobe and Jordan have different skillsets... they are different type players in a way. To me, Jordan is more like DWade... when I look at Wade, he reminds me more of Jordan. And no doubt Wade is a truly excellent player, and we just saw him take Kobe off the dribble very recently.

Kobe is more like a cross between say, Larry Bird, Dr J and David Thompson, with some Jerry West thrown in, and maybe some Dennis Rodman's thrown in as well for the freakish strength and body control.

Look, at the end of the day, when we want to say "who was the GOAT?" we're going to have to look at the whole career. Unless you just want to say that Jordan was the best ever for 3 or 4 years in the 90's, and that no one else could ever approach that level. It's transparently clear that during the second 3-peat he wasn't as good, and that he got TONS of respect from the refs, and that we were all being told, literally, by the league, on a daily basis, that this guy was the best ever. And the Washington Wizard years were a travesty.

To me, Kobe seemed to never get the acclaim that he should have... even during the Shaq years, Kobe always got downplayed. This goes back to his being a flawed imperfect player in some ways. But he keeps having enough magical moments that the championships keeping piling up.

Ultimately, if Kobe is the greatest LAKER of all time, he will also be the Greatest NBA Player of All Time as well, because if

Kobe >> Magic, Wilt, West, Kareem, Baylor

then Kobe gets it. Because no WAY can you say Jordan is better than all those guys.

So the battle is really for Kobe if he can be the greatest LAKER of all time. Chicago can just suck it.

sigh..really? again?

Do you have any idea how many unsupported statements you make in every post you make? It really blows my mind that you think these unsupported thoughts in your head mean anything to anybody. Do you realize how useless these comments are if you dont' have any support or evidence behind them? Do some actual work and put some actual effort into your posts. Putting "everyone knows" and "of course" in front of everything doesn't make it true, and doesn't mean that I agree with you. If you want to prove something, than PROVE it. I have.

Like I said 1000X. I can't go into your head and change it. You see things the way you see them, and you believe what you believe. As long as you are under the FULL understanding that I have facts and evidence on my side, and that you are arguing with unsupported statements and your own personal perception.

whitemamba33
03-31-2011, 02:59 AM
It's true. If Kobe was marketed as much as Jordan, and was the darling of the league the way Jordan was, Kobe would almost certainly have 5 League MVPs, and would also probably have six Rings ALREADY and going for # seven now. Actually, both the Detroit Finals and the Boston Finals were such devastating tough upset losses, with such horrible officiating it was ridiculous. It's not unrealistic to think that if Kobe got just a bit of "Jordan Rules" on his side he'd have 7 rings already and be going for #8.

I base it on the level of play though. To me, Jordan always seemed to go back to his bread and butter, over and over, very repetitive. Kobe seems to have an infinite number of weapons in his magical bag of tricks. Kobe seems to take the game to higher and higher levels. And from long range, Kobe makes his own shot and knocks it down with authoritay in a way that I never really saw Jordan do.


So this entire time I've been sitting here and wondering if you actually ever even saw Jordan play. At one point I thought you did, and then I thought you didn't..and it was back and forth. But now you are referencing "The Jordan Rules" in such a wrong way that it has now absolutly confirmed in my mind that you didn't see Jordan play.

Go read up on what the "jordan rules" were, and you'll see why this was such a stupid thing to say.

whitemamba33
03-31-2011, 03:03 AM
MJ is MJ. His legacy is on the table and so far in the modern era of the NBA,he is until now the best! The greatest player in terms of number of rings and the one no one will dare to reach is the Boston's center Russell with just 11! Kobe is still making his own legacy and that is his advantage for his era. He is not done and according to him now he is eying Russell's legacy as his ultimate mark. I personally think that he might not reach that far, I see him passing by his idol with at least 7 rings before he is done. Now the MVPs is going to be very difficult,because the NBA's mafia hates his guts and he has been disrespected at least 4 times for that honor. SO if Kobe gets seven rings he will make his case for the second best in the history of the NBA . He also can reach or pass the best scorer Kareem. Also he will end being the second man that scored more points in an NBA game with 81 points! He is not done yet and he might extend his carrier if the Lakers next year make the move and steal Howard. These two guys together can bring some rings to us or not? Remember that the number of rings will make the cut. Then the Zen will have to come out of his cave in Montana and crown Kobe's greatness over MJ.

MJ's
Honors: Six-time NBA champion (1991-93, 1996-98); MVP (1988, '91, '92, '96, '98); 10-time All-NBA First Team (1987-93, 1996-98); All-NBA Second Team (1985); Defensive Player of the Year (1988); Nine-time All-Defensive First Team (1988-93, 1996-98); Rookie of the Year (1985); 14-time All-Star; All-Star MVP (1988, '96, '98); One of 50 Greatest Players in NBA History ('96); Olympic gold medalist (1984, '92).
Let's watch this closely!

You are making the assumption that it's all about rings, and it's not. If it were, Robert Horry > Michael Jordan. Kobe could win 7 and he still won't have as many league MVPS, Finals MVPS, and will still be lower in almost every single statistical category.

Phil didn't base his answer and his opinion on rings, he based on how they played. Kobe getting a couple more rings because the Lakers were lucky enough to lure Dwight Howard to the team wouldn't change Phil's opinion at all...I can promise you that.

Anilyzer
03-31-2011, 03:12 AM
sigh..really? again?

Do you have any idea how many unsupported statements you make in every post you make? It really blows my mind that you think these unsupported thoughts in your head mean anything to anybody.

Like I said 1000X. I can't go into your head and change it. You saw what you say, and you believe what you believe. As long as you are under the FULL understanding that I have facts and evidence on my side, and that you are arguing with unsupported statements and your own personal perception.

What you say is patently ridiculous.

For one thing, the NBA "Greatest Of All Time" designation is a purely theoretical concept--there is no definitive test or criteria to determine it, nor is there any general consensus about what precisely those criteria would possibly be.

In addition, as I've stated, there are significant differences in rules and officiating between different NBA eras, as well as the context of each player's career in terms of teammates and competition.

I mean, it's not even clear to me if by "GOAT" you mean the player who had the most amazing skills for, say, a five year span at the peak of their career, or if you are saying it is the player with the most perfect career and greatest career accomplishments.

If we are saying it is the player who had the most amazing skills and abililty for a few seasons at their highpoint, then really we need to include Dr J, Gervin, Wilt, Magic and even McAdoo and Karl Malone and possibly many others in the discussion. Jordan may have blown your mind, but there have been impossibly rare and freakishly talented players in the history of the NBA.

If it is sheer titles, then Bill Russell is clearly the GOAT, and Magic and Kobe (as well as Pippen) are right there close as well.

I mean this is a purely subjective discussion, and it isn't even clearly determined what the "GOAT" is. So to just angrily say that you've completely gotten behind the equation with your facts and totally solved it, and no one can question that or else we are foolish and non-scientific, is ridiculous.

Seriously... you make some good points. But your failure to put things into context and admit that there are good cases on both sides costs you your credibility.

I mean, the fact that if we line up Kobe and Jordan's careers against each
other, and you can see that when Kobe was 30 and 31 he was ALL NBA First Team and won two NBA titles, and when Jordan was 30 and 31 years old he was playing minor league baseball... I mean how can you not concede that that would carry some weight *somehow* if we ever were to get serious about deciding who the "GOAT" is--however we decide to determine it.

There's just no question about this.

whitemamba33
03-31-2011, 03:21 AM
What you say is patently ridiculous.

For one thing, the NBA "Greatest Of All Time" designation is a purely theoretical concept--there is no definitive test or criteria to determine it, nor is there any general consensus about what precisely those criteria would possibly be.

In addition, as I've stated, there are significant differences in rules and officiating between different NBA eras, as well as the context of each player's career in terms of teammates and competition.

I mean, it's not even clear to me if by "GOAT" you mean the player who had the most amazing skills for, say, a five year span at the peak of their career, or if you are saying it is the player with the most perfect career and greatest career accomplishments.

If we are saying it is the player who had the most amazing skills and abililty for a few seasons at their highpoint, then really we need to include Dr J, Gervin, Wilt, Magic and even McAdoo and Karl Malone and possibly many others in the discussion. Jordan may have blown your mind, but there have been impossibly rare and freakishly talented players in the history of the NBA.

If it is sheer titles, then Bill Russell is clearly the GOAT, and Magic and Kobe (as well as Pippen) are right there close as well.

I mean this is a purely subjective discussion, and it isn't even clearly determined what the "GOAT" is. So to just angrily say that you've completely gotten behind the equation with your facts and totally solved it, and no one can question that or else we are foolish and non-scientific, is ridiculous.

Seriously... you make some good points. But your failure to put things into context and admit that there are good cases on both sides costs you your credibility.

I mean, the fact that if we line up Kobe and Jordan's careers against each
other, and you can see that when Kobe was 30 and 31 he was ALL NBA First Team and won two NBA titles, and when Jordan was 30 and 31 years old he was playing minor league baseball... I mean how can you not concede that that would carry some weight *somehow* if we ever were to get serious about deciding who the "GOAT" is--however we decide to determine it.

There's just no question about this.

This would be a great post if I hadn't already said that I have no problem with you believing what you want to believe as far as things that can't be proven.

I even boiled it all down to one question, which you completly failed to answer, and it dealt with exactly what you wasted your time writing about right here. If you are going to believe Kobe > Jordan for reasons that you can't prove or give concrete evidence to support...I can live with that. In the end, I know that I gave actual facts, stats, and peer opinions to support myself, and you've done nothing but "tell it as you see it". If that's your style, that's fine. But the problem with that is that I don't need to do anything more than disagree with you and neither of us are right because neither one of us will have supported our comments. From my side of the argument, not only can I live with that, but I wouldn't expect it to end up either way because you really dont' have any facts or evidence to argue with.

So your wrong. I completly acknowledge that the GOAT title is up to debate...and I have no problem with you calling it as you see it. As long as we both know that I had support and you didn't.

whitemamba33
03-31-2011, 03:27 AM
You are missing the weaknesses of your style of arguing.

You are sitting here and teling me what you saw. You saw Kobe hit 3's, you saw Jordan get calls..etc.

But I can do the EXACT same thing, and neither of us are right/wrong because it's based on our own opinions. I could say I saw Jordan hit harder 3's, and that Kobe gets more calls. Neither one of us are really right/wrong until somebody proves it.

It makes absolutly zero sense for me to argue this way...and it's really all you've done. When I make a statement, I support it. When you make a statement, you throw a "obviously" in front of it and assume that i'm going to agree with you.

Anyways..the fact that you don't know what the Jordan Rules are kind of makes me feel ashamed for arguing with someone who didn't actually watch Jordan play during those years...it's unfair of me. I won't be back...good luck in the future.

Purple&Gold24
03-31-2011, 03:47 AM
They are both the most awesomenessestest players in the world. And both great in their respectful eras. THE END! lol

GREATNESS ONE
03-31-2011, 04:17 AM
They are both the most awesomenessestest players in the world. And both great in their respectful eras. THE END! lol

Nailed it. These 2 players have been Iconic in their 2 respected era's, They've outlasted, dominated, outworked and out willed their competition. We should be happy that we are lucky enough to witness these two legends of the game.

Now we're sitting here witnessing something great, A Kid out of Philly. The first of his kind, a young high school SG (youngest at the time). Thrown into the impossible situation, following his Airness. Which was unfair from the start. Kobe will never get the respect he deserves and he knows that, So he will earn it.

We're watching History, let's sit back and enjoy this legendary Laker. I know it's been fun watching and I don't miss a game. We're all Laker fans and we get to witness what looks like another great 3PEAT.:clap::win::win::win:

s2kobe
03-31-2011, 04:47 AM
jordan

Anilyzer
03-31-2011, 04:54 AM
You are missing the weaknesses of your style of arguing.

You are sitting here and teling me what you saw. You saw Kobe hit 3's, you saw Jordan get calls..etc.

But I can do the EXACT same thing, and neither of us are right/wrong because it's based on our own opinions. I could say I saw Jordan hit harder 3's, and that Kobe gets more calls. Neither one of us are really right/wrong until somebody proves it.

It makes absolutly zero sense for me to argue this way...and it's really all you've done. When I make a statement, I support it. When you make a statement, you throw a "obviously" in front of it and assume that i'm going to agree with you.

Anyways..the fact that you don't know what the Jordan Rules are kind of makes me feel ashamed for arguing with someone who didn't actually watch Jordan play during those years...it's unfair of me. I won't be back...good luck in the future.

Just fyi, I was using the term "Jordan Rules" ironically.

So... I guess we both know something about "wasting our time writing here"... so that is something we can both relate to.

Anyways... I think the points I made about the holes in Jordan's career, as well as the differences in rules/officiating/competition and how that affects the way we weigh the stats ARE actually supported by hard facts.

I mean, you can trot out a lot of stats, and show that Jordan was 3% higher on this, or that, or the other thing; but as far as I'm concerned, the differences with the illegal defense rules and the 3-point line, as well as the fact that Jordan was the most marketed and hyped player in history, HAVE to be accounted for.

Sure, SOME coaches or players from that era think it is the other way about, and that Jordan would completely destroy the league now... but then that is back to the level of subjective opinions, right? Quoting them can hardly be called "definitive proof", of anything, really, except that is what they think.

Sure, Jordan was crazy good... but the way everything played out, I don't think it's just automatic that he is the GOAT... especially with the way that Kobe has evolved and risen to every successive challenge and the run he is on now.

You know, I'm just gonna say one more thing about this: during the peak of the Jordan years, I really sometimes got the feeling that the league was just marketing him too darn much. Like every accolade, every trophy, every award, seemed to be handed to him personally by Donald Stern, smirking and smiling and always saying that now THIS finally proves once and for all that Michael Jordan is the best who's ever lived. And... you know... I never totally bought it. There was always an element of wishful thinking and marketing to it. And as we've pointed out, Scottie Pippen and Phil came very close to winning a couple more titles while Michael was playing baseball. But every time Stern handed him a trophy, he'd say that OK, now this proves it, and no one can ever say he's not the best. And again, some historians would say that the 90's were an extraordinarily weak era in the NBA, anyway, a downtime after the epic Magic/Bird years.

Yeah... last time I saw Michael on the court, Kobe was dropping 40+ on him or something...

Anilyzer
03-31-2011, 04:58 AM
also, and this IS totally subjective and just my opinion, but in the past two years I think we've seen something very unique with Kobe's evolution. Beyond playing through the broken finger and all that, somehow his footwork and moves just went to a completely higher level.

GREATNESS ONE
03-31-2011, 04:59 AM
jordan

I'll tell you one thing, these 2 warriors would have a hell of a game 1 vs 1, prime vs prime.

Anilyzer
03-31-2011, 06:26 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZnF87Iy84

whitemamba33
03-31-2011, 10:51 AM
Just fyi, I was using the term "Jordan Rules" ironically.

So... I guess we both know something about "wasting our time writing here"... so that is something we can both relate to.

Anyways... I think the points I made about the holes in Jordan's career, as well as the differences in rules/officiating/competition and how that affects the way we weigh the stats ARE actually supported by hard facts.

I mean, you can trot out a lot of stats, and show that Jordan was 3% higher on this, or that, or the other thing; but as far as I'm concerned, the differences with the illegal defense rules and the 3-point line, as well as the fact that Jordan was the most marketed and hyped player in history, HAVE to be accounted for.

Sure, SOME coaches or players from that era think it is the other way about, and that Jordan would completely destroy the league now... but then that is back to the level of subjective opinions, right? Quoting them can hardly be called "definitive proof", of anything, really, except that is what they think.

Sure, Jordan was crazy good... but the way everything played out, I don't think it's just automatic that he is the GOAT... especially with the way that Kobe has evolved and risen to every successive challenge and the run he is on now.

You know, I'm just gonna say one more thing about this: during the peak of the Jordan years, I really sometimes got the feeling that the league was just marketing him too darn much. Like every accolade, every trophy, every award, seemed to be handed to him personally by Donald Stern, smirking and smiling and always saying that now THIS finally proves once and for all that Michael Jordan is the best who's ever lived. And... you know... I never totally bought it. There was always an element of wishful thinking and marketing to it. And as we've pointed out, Scottie Pippen and Phil came very close to winning a couple more titles while Michael was playing baseball. But every time Stern handed him a trophy, he'd say that OK, now this proves it, and no one can ever say he's not the best. And again, some historians would say that the 90's were an extraordinarily weak era in the NBA, anyway, a downtime after the epic Magic/Bird years.

Yeah... last time I saw Michael on the court, Kobe was dropping 40+ on him or something...

lol every time I try to leave you just keep drawing me back in.

You are a hypocrite. You've come here time and time again to tell me that the "GOAT" label is subjective and that everyone has their own opinion, yet you come here and tell me what him behind hyped HAS to be accounted for. To me, it sure as hell doesn't. I've made this very clear: I don't care about anything that didn't happen on the basketball court. I'm trying to determine the better BASKETBALL PLAYER. I don't care about "hype"..that is out of Jordans control and i'm not going to discount him as a player because of that.

I never called the pper opinions proof. My point there was that people who actually played the game and even played with both of them agree that #1 Jordan was better, and #2 today's NBA favors perimeter players. I challenge you to come up with as many quotes as I did that say the opposite. You can't. The only reason I even included this argument was to prove to you that if we want to include people's "perception" in the argument, you still lose on the basis of credible opinions. Again, you are being a hypocrite. You are telling me to consider something beyond stats, awards, etc, so I do. And now you don't even want to accept that either. Like I said, if it's YOUR OPINION vs TEX WINTER, PHIL JACKSON, CLYDE DREXLER, SCOTTIE PIPPEN, LARRY BROWn etc....I'm going to have to side with the NBA legends on this one. I hope you are ok with that lol. There is nothing you will ever do that will put you in a better position than Phil Jackson to make a judgement about which player is/was better.

I never said it was "automatic" that Jordan is better. If it was, I wouldn't have had to bring up so many undeniable facts to prove it. I'm ok with Kobe being in the conversation. But i'm sure as hell not going to ignore hardcore facts and peer opinions in favor of YOUR opinion. I'm just not.

I don't care if you "bought" it. Again, this is the weakeness with the way you argue. You didn't buy it, I bought it. Neither one of us are right/wrong, so the argument never ends. This A perfect example why I argue with facts instead of head arguments.

whitemamba33
03-31-2011, 10:54 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZnF87Iy84

LOL.

So to prove to me that Kobe is better, you give me a link from a series where Kobe is famous for quitting in the second half of game 7?

GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.

You posted a link from a series that Kobe LOST, I'll post a link from a series that JORDAN WON:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5WUOnTxwPw

Has Kobe ever closed out a playoff series with a game winning shot at the buzzer?

Chacarron
03-31-2011, 11:19 AM
Jordan > Kobe.

whitemamba33
03-31-2011, 11:20 AM
Just fyi, I was using the term "Jordan Rules" ironically.

So... I guess we both know something about "wasting our time writing here"... so that is something we can both relate to.

Anyways... I think the points I made about the holes in Jordan's career, as well as the differences in rules/officiating/competition and how that affects the way we weigh the stats ARE actually supported by hard facts.

I mean, you can trot out a lot of stats, and show that Jordan was 3% higher on this, or that, or the other thing; but as far as I'm concerned, the differences with the illegal defense rules and the 3-point line, as well as the fact that Jordan was the most marketed and hyped player in history, HAVE to be accounted for.

Sure, SOME coaches or players from that era think it is the other way about, and that Jordan would completely destroy the league now... but then that is back to the level of subjective opinions, right? Quoting them can hardly be called "definitive proof", of anything, really, except that is what they think.

Sure, Jordan was crazy good... but the way everything played out, I don't think it's just automatic that he is the GOAT... especially with the way that Kobe has evolved and risen to every successive challenge and the run he is on now.

You know, I'm just gonna say one more thing about this: during the peak of the Jordan years, I really sometimes got the feeling that the league was just marketing him too darn much. Like every accolade, every trophy, every award, seemed to be handed to him personally by Donald Stern, smirking and smiling and always saying that now THIS finally proves once and for all that Michael Jordan is the best who's ever lived. And... you know... I never totally bought it. There was always an element of wishful thinking and marketing to it. And as we've pointed out, Scottie Pippen and Phil came very close to winning a couple more titles while Michael was playing baseball. But every time Stern handed him a trophy, he'd say that OK, now this proves it, and no one can ever say he's not the best. And again, some historians would say that the 90's were an extraordinarily weak era in the NBA, anyway, a downtime after the epic Magic/Bird years.

Yeah... last time I saw Michael on the court, Kobe was dropping 40+ on him or something...

You are a hypocrite. You've come here time and time again to tell me that the "GOAT" label is subjective and that everyone has their own opinion, yet you come here and tell me what him behind hyped HAS to be accounted for. To me, it sure as hell doesn't. I've made this very clear: I don't care about anything that didn't happen on the basketball court. I'm trying to determine the better BASKETBALL PLAYER. I don't care about "hype"..that is out of Jordans control and i'm not going to discount him as a player because of that.

If i'im going to account for peoples opinions, like yours, I'm going to hold Tex Winter, Phil Jackson, Scottie Pippen, Clyde Drexler, Larry Brown, Ron Artest's opinions WAAAAYYYY ahead of yours. I hope you understand that.

Does it make you feel better when you compare a 40 year old Michael Jordan to a young Kobe Bryant? I know you feel like this helps your argument, but it really only hurts it. Do I need to bring up the years when Kobe came into the league and MJ made him look silly? The guy came back to show his team how to play, and he set records. 22 ppg at 40 years old doesn't hurt Michael Jordan, it helps him. If any thing, these 2 Washington seasons hurt his career averages, YET THEY ARE STILL HIGHER THAN KOBE'S.

MICHAEL JORDAN AT 32 YEARS OLD: 30.4 ppg, 6.6 rebounds, 4.3 assists on 49% shooting and an efficiency of 29.4. TWENTY NINE POINT FOUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KOBE BRYANT AT 32 YEARS OLD: 25.2 ppg, 5.2 rebounds, 4.8 assists, on 45% shooting and a PER of 24.

Do you see the difference here? You know your wrong, so you have to rely on comparisons like a young Kobe vs a 40 year old Jordan to try and make points...and it's pathetic. I, on the other hand, have nothing to be afraid of. I dont have to rely on weak comparisons....i'll compare them straight up at this point in their careers, and as you can see, it is absolutly no contest. Jordan at 32 >>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe at 32.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-LCvIFjjAA ...WELCOME TO THE NBA, KID. He made Kobe look like a bench player during this game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtgtw3bRNKo&feature=related LOL AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Thanks for playing Kobe.

whitemamba33
03-31-2011, 11:39 AM
Also, something I haven't really pointed out:

Jordan was the better defensive player. As usual, I'll support this with facts instead of my own personal opinion. Then, after i'm done that, you'll come in here and say "BUT I SWEAR, THIS ONE TIME, I SAW KOBE PLAY WAY BETTER DEFENSE THAN JORDAN"...and i look forward to that lol.

He was the first player in NBA history to record 200 blocks and 100 steals in a single season. He did it two seasons in a row. Kobe never has.

You've talked about how many more quality seasons Kobe has had than Jordan, so can you please explain to me why MJ STILL HAS over 300 more blocks than Kobe and approx 900 more steals?

Kobe has averaged 1 block a game during only ONE season, and it was only a 50 game season. Jordan has done it 4 times.

Kobe has averaged at least 2 steals a game in only ONE season. Jordan did it in his first 9 seasons, and added a 10th time a few years later. But wait...if Kobe had so many more quality seasons, wouldn't these numbers be closer? Jordan maxed out at an incredible 3.2 steals per game in one season. Kobe never has and never will get anywhere near that.

Jordans DWS is 64.1 for his career. Kobe's is 44.4. Jordan wins this comparison from all angles.

Jordan also won Defensive Player of the Year, which is a rarity for perimeter players. Kobe never has.

Like I said, I argue with facts.

Jordan has NEVER lost in the NBA Finals. Kobe has, twice, already. This brings up another point...would you like me to compare lifetime playoff stats and performances? Would you like me to do a post showing who elevated their game more in the playoffs? Just say the word...

This is why comparing him to Michael isn't' fair to Kobe. He's not as great, but he still is great. Making the comparisons only reminds people and makes it obvious that he's not as great.

Tymathee
03-31-2011, 12:55 PM
Jordan played in an era with no zone defense, no double teaming, all 1 on 1

Jordan was 6'7 215 and just strong. In an era where most of the guys are on average 6'3-6'5 at his position and 180-190 lbs, that means he was not only bigger but stronger, heck even bigger and stronger than some SF and a few PF's. Do you think a Charles Barkley would thrive at PF in this day and age? It'd be really hard for him to do so.

Kobe on the other hand is dealing with more athletic players than him, some stronger than him, most of them his height, longer arms, double teams, zones, sometimes 3-4 players in his way or face just to get a simple lay up.

Jordan on the other hand if he beat his man, he had an easy time to the hoop, plain and simple, if Kobe beats his man, 1-3 guys can leave their guy and stop him, that's one of the biggest differences.

It's easy enough to say this as well. Defense is sooo much better now a days. In the mid 90's, giving up 100 ppg was considered good defense, now it's mediocre and below 90 is good defense. If you average 105 ppg as an offense today that's great offense, in the 90's that was 110+.

To back up my claims i'm going to do some research comparing the year of Jordans best Year and Kobes

Jordan's Best year = Age 23 1986/1987 37.1 ppg 5.2 rpg 4.6 apg 2.9 spg 1.5 bpg .482 FG% 40 MPG
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1987.html

Kobe's Best Year = Age 27 2005/2006 35.4 5.3 rpg 4.5 apg 1.8 spg 0.4 bpg .450 FG% 41.0 MPG
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2006.html

All numbers will be donoted with a slash. The first number is Jordans year, the second kobe. Like 37/35 ppg.

Teams = 23/30
League Average PPG = 109.9/97.0 (this is also league avg oPPG)
League Average FG% = .480/.454
League Average 3pt% = .301/.358
League High PPG = 117.9/108.4 (Suns were 5.8 higher than 2nd highest while the top 4 in 86 were all within a ponit)
League High oPPG = 102.8/88.5

So, its easy enough to say that Kobe is plaing in a tougher defensive era while Jordan played in an era where offense, to our minds, was out of control, a more than 10 point difference in league points.

I think at the end of the day, we will say Jordan was the greatest scorer of all time, but Kobe Bryan is the greatest perimiter scorer of all time.

No one can shoot the ball from so many different spots of the floor like Kobe can. With a man, 2 men, 3 men in his face, make the shot, get the foul, get bruised, get up and sink the clutch free throw all with 4 seconds to go on the clock.

Yes, Jordan was great but I just wonder how great he would've been with our rules in place, theres just no telling.

The only way you can figure this is to watch some games of his, watch how he plays and say "he wouldn't be able to do that now, they would do this"

in terms of goat, Jordan is 1a and Kobe is 1b in my mind

Tymathee
03-31-2011, 12:59 PM
responding to post above mine: But Kobe's also been in 7 finals, while Jordan's been in 6 :P so what if he lost 2 of 'em, thats still one more!

also, when it comes to blocks meh. the league average was higher as well by at least 60 or so over Jordans career.

Also, when you play a lot of 1 v 1, and you're actually allowed to touch the player, you can get your hand in there more to get blocks and steals, it's a lot easier for Kobe to get a foul called on him in this day and age than it would be for him in Jordan's era.

oh and btw, Jordan was more playoff losses than Kobe :D I'm going to tally up their respective win-loss record in the playoffs now

Tymathee
03-31-2011, 01:16 PM
Okay, so i was wrong on the losses but Kobe has more playoff wins, got further quicker and has more sustained success.

Jordan
85 1-3
86 0-3
87 0-3
88 3-2, 1-4
89 3-2, 4-2, 2-4
90 3-1, 4-1, 3-4
91 3-0, 4-1, 4-0, 4-1
92 3-0, 4-3, 4-2, 4-2
93 3-0, 4-0, 4-2, 4-2
95 4-1, 2-4
96 3-0, 4-1, 4-0, 4-2
97 3-0, 4-1, 4-1, 4-2
98 3-0, 4-1, 4-3, 4-2

32-15 1st Rnd
35-18 2nd Rnd
29-16 3rd Rnd
24-11 Finals
Total = 120-60 .667 Win % (180 Games)

Bryant
97 3-1, 1-4
98 3-1, 4-1, 0-4
99 3-1, 0-4
00 3-2, 4-1, 4-3, 4-2
01 3-0, 4-0, 4-0, 4-1
02 3-0, 4-1, 4-3, 4-0
03 4-2, 2-4
04 4-1, 4-2, 4-2, 1-4
06 3-4
07 1-4
08 4-0, 4-2, 4-1, 2-4
09 4-1, 4-3, 4-2, 4-1
10 4-2, 4-0, 4-2, 4-3

42-19 1st Rnd
35-22 2nd Rnd
28-17 3rd Round
23-15 Finals
Total = 128-73 .637 (201 Games)

and thats not counting 2011. Kobe's career is not over yet.

Kobe should get his 6th ring and who knows what is waiting for him.

Michael has also proved to be a quitter and indecisive, retiring twice and coming back twice, basically taking a year and then 4 years off, having fresh legs.

9 years, then 3 years, then 2 more years for a total of 14 years.
Kobe 15 straight years years, 201 playoff games.

Kobe wins in longevity easy, he'll be the greatest sustained basketball player of all time, even more so than Jordan when this is all over.

da wood
03-31-2011, 01:19 PM
I ADVISE ANYONE WHO IS USING "ZONE DEFENSE" AS AN EXCUSE OR THINKS THAT PERIMETER PLAYERS HAD IT EASIER IN JORDAN'S ERA TO READ THIS POST:

1. On the contrary, I will do much more than GLOSS over the zone defense comment. First of all, there are barely any teams that use a consistant zone defense. Some select teams go to it from time to time, but no team uses it all game every game. Zone defense was brought into the league to favour perimeter players, like Kobe Bryant. It was meant to discourage the inside game, mostly because there was really no way to defend Shaq otherwise. Below, you'll find a direct quote from Stu Jackson confirming this. If you look at 2009/2010 statistics, most star players do a huge majority of their scoring within 15 feet from the basket and free throws. Not one star player scored even half of their points from beyond 15 feet..so obviously zone defense isn't forcing these players to settle for outside shots as much you would hope. Now you might be asking.."Why should I take Whitemamba's word for it?" Well, my answer is: "DON'T". Ever hear of a guy named Tex Winter?

Tex Winter said. "Players today can get to the basket individually much easier."

In contrast, there have been rules that Jordan had to deal with that Kobe didn't. For a strong period of Jordan's career, there was no "restricted zone" under the basket for offensive fouls. This meant that the defender could stand anywhere near the basket and still draw the offensive foul. Also, handchecking was allowed. These days, you can't even put your hands on another player without getting called for a foul. This had a HUGE impact on the ability of perimeter players to get to the rim. Kobe Bryant didn't really break out as a star until the no hand checking rule was made. Look at the top scorers during the nineties and look at the top scorers now. In the nineties you had forwards/centers like Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, and Karl Malone making appearances in the top 5 ppg for individual seasons. Look at the top 5 scorers now...pretty much all perimeter players. Clearly the game has changed to favor perimeter players. Facts.

Also keep in mind, the illegal defense rule was brought in during the 2001-2002 season. Prior to that, defensive players were allowed to remain in the lane much longer...which would obviously make it tougher for players to score in the lane.

In addition, 2006-2007 saw the addition of the clear path to the basket foul...which was not in effect during Jordan's day.

I'll finish this "gloss over" with some quotes from some of the leagues most respected people how about MJ would have done in today's game:

The defensive rules, the hand checking, the ability to make contact on a guy in certain areas .... [have] all been taken away from the game. If Kobe could get 81, I think Michael could get 100 in today's game." - Scottie Pippen January 2006

"You can't even touch a guy now," says Charlotte coach Larry Brown, who also coached the 2004 Pistons defense... "The college game is much more physical than our game. I always tease Michael [Jordan], if he played today, he'd average 50."

Question for Clyde Drexler:
In the current league where there is no hand checking and no ruff play how much better would your numbers be?

Clyde Drexler: Oh, tremendously better, from shooting percentage to points per game everything would be up, and our old teams would score a lot more points, and that is saying something because we could score a lot back then. I do think there should be an asterisk next to some of these scoring leaders, because it is much different trying to score with a forearm in your face. It is harder to score with that resistance. You had to turn your back on guys defending you back in the day with all the hand checking that was going on. For guys who penetrate these days, it's hunting season. Yes, now you can play (floating)zone(legally), but teams rarely do.



"The defensive rules, the hand checking, the ability to make contact on a guy in certain areas .... [have] all been taken away from the game. If Kobe could get 81, I think Michael could get 100 in today's game." - Scottie Pippen January 2006

Craig Hodges is the Lakers shooting coach:
Q: If you could take one player in their prime, would you take Michael Jordan or Kobe?

A: M.J., all day. There's no comparison. M.J. could score 100 points in this era. You can't hand-check now. Imagine that trying to guard M.J. It would be crazy.


Here is a quote from Stu Jackson. As you can see, the rule changes were not put into effect with the intention of forcing outside shots:
Stu Jackson: No. The scoring increase was not our goal. Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.

During a 2007 L.A. Lakers pre-season broadcast, Phil Jackson was asked how he thought Michael Jordan would perform today, Phil said: "Michael would average 45 with these rules."


Is this enough for you, big guy? I wouldn't necessarily call this a "gloss over".

ven though teams dont really play full out zone defenses. trust me with these rules in place its alot easier to impliment safisticated styles of defense. and on the hand check thing come one now i'm gonna shoot two diff things at you. First on the stiff arm thing. just to make it clear both the defensive player and the offensive player were able to use there hands to do what they wanted and nobody moved players where they wanted to more than jordan. the other is can you imagine a player like posey or labron or kerilinko being able to play defense and being able to use thier hands........thants why i say the defenders in kobes era are way better. because i'm willing to bet a house that jordan wouldn't have had such a high scoring average and he def wouldn't have had such a high field goal percentage. heres another thing to add jordan didnt shoot as many threes because he played the game from the elbow posting up in most cases shorter and smaller guys. He would not have had as much luck with that so called unblockable fade away. (only one shot in NBA history was unblockable and it was the sky hook). Jordan was the greatest of his era but i promise you if kobe played in that era we would be talking about the kobe rules.

CLASSOF72
03-31-2011, 02:32 PM
These KB vs MJ threads just aren't the same with JordanBulls, but Tymathee makes the best arguement so far IMO. Nice work Tymathee!

Lakersfan2483
03-31-2011, 03:28 PM
Jordan and Kobe are eerily similar with the differences being athleticisim and overall efficiency. Kobe is very athletic, but MJ was far more gifted athletically. He was one of the greatest athletes the game has seen. Also, Jordan was more relentless in terms of getting to the rim and finishing around the basket. Kobe settles for far too many jump shots from what I have seen. Jordan was also a more efficient player and shot a better pct from the field. His shot selection was a lot better than Kobe's as well.

In terms of similarities, Kobe and Michael have the same competitive drive and desire to win. They also have a similar work ethic. They also have the same type of skill set in terms of having great footwork, being able to operate in the post and operate on the elbow. Similar midrange games, etc...

DoubleDragon
03-31-2011, 03:46 PM
:clap:

That's a great post, I never thought of it that way. Kudos.

There are many documented stats and arguments over this.
Kobe is Kobe, Jordan is Jordan. They're both great players, 2 of the greatest ever. I've enjoyed seeing them both. Shaq, Chamberlin, both great, Kareem, Akeem, brilliant. Bird, Magic, ridiculous. Oscar "The Big O", how about Russell (11 RINGS)

There are many greats, different eras. I understand the urge to name the greatest of all time, but I personally don't need to pick a G.O.A.T.

Too much respect for all the legendary ghosts that were here, and all the up and comers like Rose, LBJ, Howard who have yet to even touch their capacity for illustrious stat filled careers.



They're all in the argument ultimately

GREATNESS ONE
03-31-2011, 04:05 PM
There are many documented stats and arguments over this.
Kobe is Kobe, Jordan is Jordan. They're both great players, 2 of the greatest ever. I've enjoyed seeing them both. Shaq, Chamberlin, both great, Kareem, Akeem, brilliant. Bird, Magic, ridiculous. Oscar "The Big O", how about Russell (11 RINGS)

There are many greats, different eras. I understand the urge to name the greatest of all time, but I personally don't need to pick a G.O.A.T.

Too much respect for all the legendary ghosts that were here, and all the up and comers like Rose, LBJ, Howard who have yet to even touch their capacity for illustrious stat filled careers.



They're all in the argument ultimately

:clap: One thing we all can agree on, Kobe has Dominated this Era.

CLASSOF72
03-31-2011, 05:31 PM
There are many documented stats and arguments over this.
Kobe is Kobe, Jordan is Jordan. They're both great players, 2 of the greatest ever. I've enjoyed seeing them both. Shaq, Chamberlin, both great, Kareem, Akeem, brilliant. Bird, Magic, ridiculous. Oscar "The Big O", how about Russell (11 RINGS)

There are many greats, different eras. I understand the urge to name the greatest of all time, but I personally don't need to pick a G.O.A.T.

Too much respect for all the legendary ghosts that were here, and all the up and comers like Rose, LBJ, Howard who have yet to even touch their capacity for illustrious stat filled careers.



They're all in the argument ultimately
This is here is enough to put this argument to rest. We all love the NBA and the legends who have all done their part in bringing the game to level of greatness and refinement it is at today.

kArSoN RyDaH
03-31-2011, 05:50 PM
Defenses were tougher in Jordan's era? Are you kidding me? Teams averaged more ppg in that era than in any other era in basketball. How does this translate to tougher defenses?

In every year Jordan was with the Bulls teams in the NBA averaged 100+ ppg all the way up until 94 or 96 i believe.

In Kobe's era? Only twice has the league averaged 100+ppg.

What this translates to is inflated stats for Jordan and all these Kobe naysayers continuing to hate.

kArSoN RyDaH
03-31-2011, 05:55 PM
Also the defenders of today are just flat out better. They are physically better and quicker. Jordan never had to deal with the physical specimens in today's NBA.


Give it a rest...


Kobe doesn't give a damm about Jordan. Kobe's looking to set a new bar which he willl...

lakers4sho
03-31-2011, 06:44 PM
Also the defenders of today are just flat out better. They are physically better and quicker. Jordan never had to deal with the physical specimens in today's NBA.


Give it a rest...


Kobe doesn't give a damm about Jordan. Kobe's looking to set a new bar which he willl...

Not to mention that defenses today are much more complex, especially with the advent of advanced stats and scouting. They've developed a stat for literally every player tendency and shot selection. Would he go right or left? Would he pull a jumpshot from 15 feet? Does he like to fake right or left when he's posting on the block? All of those, plus more, are quantified and are available to teams today.

Heck, the Rockets had an entire book solely dedicated to Kobe and the analysis of his game!! Shane Battier had to live and breathe that book during the 2009 Playoffs!!

Anilyzer
03-31-2011, 07:54 PM
Not to mention that defenses today are much more complex, especially with the advent of advanced stats and scouting. They've developed a stat for literally every player tendency and shot selection. Would he go right or left? Would he pull a jumpshot from 15 feet? Does he like to fake right or left when he's posting on the block? All of those, plus more, are quantified and are available to teams today.

Heck, the Rockets had an entire book solely dedicated to Kobe and the analysis of his game!! Shane Battier had to live and breathe that book during the 2009 Playoffs!!

Yeah... can you imagine Jordan playing Houston in the Finals, and being guarded by Ron Artest, with Shane Battier providing help-defense?

The game has clearly evolved, it is clearly more sophisticated now in lots of ways. The NBA has evolved the same way that Goldman-Sachs has evolved on Wall St, finding new and innovative ways to squeeze out every advantage and value they can find.

Like even going back and watching some of the Jordan highlights--I mean, some of them, you are like *wow* that guy is so quick and gets so high in the air and just *wow*. Incredible.

But then A LOT of the Jordan highlights, it's like he fakes left, he fakes right, he fakes left, he drives to the right, he pump fakes, and then he shoots a jumper over Jeff Hornacek or Craig Ehlo or something.

I mean, he's just doing things that would get shut down in 2011, ESPECIALLY when it is the post-baseball Jordan we're talking about. Dribbling around at the top of the key or the high post, backing guys in, guards especially, shooting fadeaway jumpers from 18 feet... I mean, Jordan would get positively swarmed by modern defenses. Who knows, I'm sure he'd adjust and play the Triangle more correctly, and he might be even better. Who knows? But there's no question that the NBA has evolved and that defenses are FAAAARRRR more sophisticated now. I mean even defenders like Ariza and Ebanks, as well as the Bowens, Battiers and Artests... these type of long-armed, strong, fast, swarming hybrid defenders who stay right in front of the opponent... and that's just part of the equation. That's not even the entire picture.

IDB Josh M
03-31-2011, 08:22 PM
Jordan changed the rules. I wonder if zone defense and hand checking became allowed because of Jordan. I have a friend who said, if you played so well that the rules had to change because, you are in the legendary category already.

New Power House
03-31-2011, 10:16 PM
Not to mention that defenses today are much more complex, especially with the advent of advanced stats and scouting. They've developed a stat for literally every player tendency and shot selection. Would he go right or left? Would he pull a jumpshot from 15 feet? Does he like to fake right or left when he's posting on the block? All of those, plus more, are quantified and are available to teams today.

Heck, the Rockets had an entire book solely dedicated to Kobe and the analysis of his game!! Shane Battier had to live and breathe that book during the 2009 Playoffs!!

and he beat the crab out of him and Artest any way!:facepalm: Kobe is the unpredictable!:speechless: It will be the number of rings and there is not way we are talking here about the Horry's rings hanging on other great ones to obtain them like some one was mentioning. The rings that were won by the force of the will of leaders of the game. If Kobe passes Jordan,there is no doubt that he is the best of the modern era. Russell is the king of the past era(caveman era) of the NBA. Kareem has six and he is not even mention here. He is the scoring leader of the entire history of the NBA! This is ridiculous,but the best tabulator to me should be the number of rings and other accomplishments.

New Power House
03-31-2011, 10:20 PM
Jordan changed the rules. I wonder if zone defense and hand checking became allowed because of Jordan. I have a friend who said, if you played so well that the rules had to change because, you are in the legendary category already.

Shaq changed that not Jordan! Kobe is facing greater competition now days than Jordan ever did. Kobe has been more successful in a shorter period of time to reach a ring in spite of all the challenges. Jordan could not beat Magic, Bird and others when they were at their prime.

Anilyzer
04-01-2011, 12:40 AM
and he beat the crab out of him and Artest any way!:facepalm: Kobe is the unpredictable!:speechless: It will be the number of rings and there is not way we are talking here about the Horry's rings hanging on other great ones to obtain them like some one was mentioning. The rings that were won by the force of the will of leaders of the game. If Kobe passes Jordan,there is no doubt that he is the best of the modern era. Russell is the king of the past era(caveman era) of the NBA. Kareem has six and he is not even mention here. He is the scoring leader of the entire history of the NBA! This is ridiculous,but the best tabulator to me should be the number of rings and other accomplishments.

Kareem doesn't get mentioned, just like Magic doesn't get mentioned, or Bird. They're just not sexy like Jordan. Like if Jordan didn't shave his head and had the World B. Free haircut or whatever he wouldn't be regarded as best ever I bet, and Pippen would have a couple Finals MVPs tool

I mean, when I think back on all that constant stream of "Be Like Mike" bull**** that we were bombarded with for the entire 1990's... I really don't think they could get away with that now. Just constant underwear commercials, Gatorade, Gatorade, Gatorade, Nike, Nike, Nike everywhere every billboard every commercial over and over and over again.

Then it's like "Quick! Hand him the trophy for his 6th title so that now we can say he's the best player who's ever lived forever and ever and ever!!"

*wheeeeeeee* be like Mike!

Anilyzer
04-01-2011, 12:43 AM
Here, be like Mike

http://turbo.inquisitr.com/wp-content/2009/12/world-b-free.jpg

Anilyzer
04-01-2011, 12:46 AM
I mean, nothing against World B Free... but I'm just saying. Jordan was the first guy to go for the shaved head Zoolander look thing and that was really a factor in why he became so famous.

If Jordan looked like Kareem Abdul Jabbar I doubt he would've even won the six titles...

and Scottie was an AWESOME player, but Jordan was the cool looking one right? Pippen's got kind of that *wugh* like if he was a girl you'd put a paper bag over her head

ilovemyangel
04-01-2011, 08:04 AM
actually i think the fact that we're witnessing a good enough player in kobe to be compared to the GOAT himself is pretty incredible. Gonna miss the players of this era when they're gone. Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, T-Mac, Carter etc. sigh

kArSoN RyDaH
04-01-2011, 02:42 PM
Not to mention that defenses today are much more complex, especially with the advent of advanced stats and scouting. They've developed a stat for literally every player tendency and shot selection. Would he go right or left? Would he pull a jumpshot from 15 feet? Does he like to fake right or left when he's posting on the block? All of those, plus more, are quantified and are available to teams today.

Heck, the Rockets had an entire book solely dedicated to Kobe and the analysis of his game!! Shane Battier had to live and breathe that book during the 2009 Playoffs!!

Exactly what I'm talking about. The players today are a new breed. Players in the 80's and 90's all have inflated stats due to the lack of complex defensive schemes that are in today's game. These players were scoring at a ridiculous pace for years.

In Kobe's NBA there has never been a year where the league was averaging 110ppg. Imagine Kobe Bryant playing in the pace of the 80s and 90s? He would average 40 ppg. It's quite ridiculous how people are quick to dismiss defenses of today's NBA without any regard to how defenses allowed so many points back in the day.


Kobe would absolutley dominate Jordan's era. The only thing about players back then that separates them from today's is the fact that they played for respect and went all out for their teams. Players put their bodies on the line and were a hell of a lot tougher. People need to stop mistaking toughness for superior defensive play.



Kobe will be the GOAT when all is said and done.

7 or more rings and 33K+ points...


#BlackMamba

kArSoN RyDaH
04-01-2011, 06:51 PM
3Peat here we come. #6

Bruno
04-01-2011, 07:00 PM
actually i think the fact that we're witnessing a good enough player in kobe to be compared to the GOAT himself is pretty incredible. Gonna miss the players of this era when they're gone. Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, T-Mac, Carter etc. sigh

Me too, I'm really gona miss this generation. I think they're the last of that dying breed of hard-nosed players from the 80's/90's.

Perkins might be provin' me wrong though! :laugh2:

kArSoN RyDaH
04-01-2011, 07:24 PM
I think their are players who have that mentality of those 80's 90's players but none possess the killer instinct that Kobe or MJ have/had.

Anilyzer
04-02-2011, 02:58 AM
Kobe's got the serious absolute commitment. Kobe is NOT playing around, he is completely hardcore serious.

kArSoN RyDaH
04-02-2011, 07:29 PM
Yeah I don't see Kobe leaving to play baseball anytime soon. ;)

Anilyzer
04-03-2011, 12:55 AM
Baseball. Yeah, how did they ever sell that to the American Public.

It was like "Just do it!" Jordan is playing baseball out of love of the sport!

I mean, the more I think about it, there MUST'VE been some kind of weird dark-cloud about the gambling or some kind of allegations, that the league hushed up and just told him to "retire" for a while, or maybe permanently... and then brought him back later.

I mean, has anybody ever heard of such a thing? EVER??

Seriously, can anybody even IMAGINE for instance a Wayne Gretsky, Jerry Rice, Tom Brady, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, Peyton Manning, Luc Robitaille... an absolute superstar at the absolute top of their sport, in their prime, with vast endorsement contracts, the #1 attraction in the league and possibly all of sports... can anyone imagine somebody like that just walking away in their prime to play minor league baseball?

Like honestly, and not to be offensive, but between the weird Jordan mystery and the fact that Magic Johnson somehow miraculously got AIDS from a woman, the 90's were very strange.

I mean, Magic supposedly caught AIDS from a stripper/ho/whatever.

Who? "There's so many, no way to know."

Really? How many? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Are these women being tested for AIDS?

And did any WOMAN with AIDS infected from Magic Johnson ever turn up? You know, forensically they can examine the virus and determine from DNA traces who the virus came from. Was there some woman he was having a relationship with, in LA, in that time zone, who then died of AIDS?

No no no... you can't ask these kind of questions. Even though the CDC says it's extremely (extremely) difficult to catch AIDS from a female during sex, and even though no other NBA player ever caught it from a "groupie", and even though Isaiah made some incredibly prissy and catty insinuations about Magic and his situation on Larry King, nobody ever questions.

It's like, sports isn't a big deal. But then, it's.a.really.big.deal.

Jordan suddenly "retiring" in his prime to play baseball is like that. Just a complete freakshow that nobody ever bothered trying to explain in a credible manner. They even turned it into a "Just do it!" Nike thing.

yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah

Anilyzer
04-03-2011, 12:58 AM
Bottom line: Kobe is better than both Jordan and Magic, in the final analysis.

Both of their careers have huge ugly warts on them.

LoL I think whitemamba smashed his computer into a wall with rage before he left the debate. Hopefully he heard the diplomatic ones come in and say "there there, they were both great players, you are both right"

Anilyzer
04-03-2011, 01:06 AM
btw, I only mention Isaiah, because out of ALL the NBA players in history, he is the one that really pops out at you as being clearly gay. So when he said things about Magic, it raised an eyebrow for sure.

nothing against being gay... it is just the hypocrisy that kind of creeps me out. Hey if Isaiah and some guys named Dominik and Stephon are in the garage listening to Prince all night, cool.

whitemamba33
04-03-2011, 02:29 AM
Bottom line: Kobe is better than both Jordan and Magic, in the final analysis.

Both of their careers have huge ugly warts on them.

LoL I think whitemamba smashed his computer into a wall with rage before he left the debate. Hopefully he heard the diplomatic ones come in and say "there there, they were both great players, you are both right"

No rage. Quite the opposite actually. I'm at peace. I can't tell you how to define GOAT, and you can't tell me how to define GOAT. I choose to define using facts, stats, and peer opinions. It is what I know. You chose to factor in off-the-court happenings and "what if's?" into your definition, and you have put this in front of what actuall did/does happen on the court.

At the end of the day, I can live with my definition, I just didn't understand how somebody could live with yours. But instead of trying to change your definition, I made peace. Both are great players, and both will go down as two of the all time greats.

Anilyzer
04-03-2011, 03:08 AM
No rage. Quite the opposite actually. I'm at peace. I can't tell you how to define GOAT, and you can't tell me how to define GOAT. I choose to define using facts, stats, and peer opinions. It is what I know. You chose to factor in off-the-court happenings and "what if's?" into your definition, and you have put this in front of what actuall did/does happen on the court.

At the end of the day, I can live with my definition, I just didn't understand how somebody could live with yours. But instead of trying to change your definition, I made peace. Both are great players, and both will go down as two of the all time greats.

whatever. You were talking a lot of smack earlier in the thread, and then when you got called on it your posts went all incoherent and you even reposted teh same thing or almost two or three times in a row. Glad that you are so serene and peaceful though. At least you recognize that they are both two of the all time greats, and that there is no objective definition of GOAT.

whitemamba33
04-03-2011, 02:49 PM
whatever. You were talking a lot of smack earlier in the thread, and then when you got called on it your posts went all incoherent and you even reposted teh same thing or almost two or three times in a row. Glad that you are so serene and peaceful though. At least you recognize that they are both two of the all time greats, and that there is no objective definition of GOAT.

I'll take Phil's opinion over yours any day of the week.

Nobody ever "called-out" my posts..not successfully anyways. Other posters came up with some stats, which I guess they had to because the good lord knows that you never would lol. Showing that there was a decrease in scoring doesn't describe which positions were affected the most. As I've already shown in a post earlier, the pre-zone defense era saw big men routinely make appearences among the list of top 5 scorers in the league. Zone defense changed this. It made it harder for big men to score. Now you see perimeter players leading scoring, and it's because zone defense doesn't affect them as much. Go read the quote that I posted from Stu Jackson. Zone defense made it easier for perimeter players, not harder.

Big men fell off as the scoring leaders..so naturally there was a decrease in average scoring. But NOTHING has been provided by you or anyone else to prove that the game was made more difficult for perimeter players. When I get that, i'll admit i've been "called-out".

New Power House
04-03-2011, 03:02 PM
I'll take Phil's opinion over yours any day of the week.

Phil is going to retire and Kobe will continue playing at age 33! Kareem played until he was 40 and he was a 7th'. Grant Hill is 38 and he still playing at a decent level. The point here is that Kobe has at least 5 more years to pass Kareem as the leading scorer! Surpass Jordan as the leading player with more rings on this era and please do not bring Horry here. The only player out of reach is Russell with 11! My prediction is that Kobe will retire with at least 7 rings and two to three MVPs. He may end up either passing Kareem or being the second in that category. If he is the GOAT or not in the opinion of the bunch of haters, the facts will speak for him in the books of NBA history!

whitemamba33
04-03-2011, 03:22 PM
Phil is going to retire and Kobe will continue playing at age 33! Kareem played until he was 40 and he was a 7th'. Grant Hill is 38 and he still playing at a decent level. The point here is that Kobe has at least 5 more years to pass Kareem as the leading scorer! Surpass Jordan as the leading player with more rings on this era and please do not bring Horry here. The only player out of reach is Russell with 11! My prediction is that Kobe will retire with at least 7 rings and two to three MVPs. He may end up either passing Kareem or being the second in that category. If he is the GOAT or not in the opinion of the bunch of haters, the facts will speak for him in the books of NBA history!

Phil has coached in both "era's", and he has coached both players in question. So that puts his opinion, in my mind at least, above everyone's here. Not only that, but the man who created the Bulls/Lakers offense, Tex Winter, claims that players today can get to the basket easier. Again, I'm going to get my opinions from credible sources before I get Kobe opinion in the LAKERS forum.

The Grant Hill comparison is weak. The guy missed tons of his career and is allowed to play at this level because he hasn't put his body through the same amount of strain that Kobe has. Most of your post relies on what is going to happen in the future...so I guess we'll just have to wait. But i'm not going to base my current choice of GOAT on events that may or may not happen in the next 5 years.

S & B Bleeder
04-03-2011, 03:42 PM
You know, I'm just gonna say one more thing about this: during the peak of the Jordan years, I really sometimes got the feeling that the league was just marketing him too darn much. Like every accolade, every trophy, every award, seemed to be handed to him personally by Donald Stern, smirking and smiling and always saying that now THIS finally proves once and for all that Michael Jordan is the best who's ever lived. And... you know... I never totally bought it. There was always an element of wishful thinking and marketing to it.

This is the POST OF THE CENTURY. Couldnt have said it better myself.

The hyped and marketed the HELL out of Jordan as the definitive "GOAT" much too soon. The bottom line is the public, AND the NBA weren't READY for a supreme talent like "81" to arrive so soon and challenge what they had marketed down our throats for the entire 90's.

People have trouble accepting Kobe as the GOAT because he came SO SOON after the media and NBA spoonfed the masses of sheep for the better part of a decade that Jordan was the GOAT. Period. The masses are still blinded by that marketing blitz, but that will change very, very soon.

When kobe rips ring #7 from his latest victim of a team, everyone will have NO CHOICE but to swallow the cold, hard truth and watch 24 with begrudging admiration.

whitemamba33
04-03-2011, 03:47 PM
This is the POST OF THE CENTURY. Couldnt have said it better myself.

The hyped and marketed the HELL out of Jordan as the definitive "GOAT" much too soon. The bottom line is the public, AND the NBA weren't READY for a supreme talent like "81" to arrive so soon and challenge what they had marketed down our throats for the entire 90's.

People have trouble accepting Kobe as the GOAT because he came SO SOON after the media and NBA spoonfed the masses of sheep for the better part of a decade that Jordan was the GOAT. Period. The masses are still blinded by that marketing blitz, but that will change very, very soon.

When kobe rips ring #7 from his latest victim of a team, everyone will have NO CHOICE but to swallow the cold, hard truth and watch 24 with begrudging admiration.

What's more likely: that almost THE ENTIRE WORLD (except most Lakers fans) are wrong, or that there are some biased Lakers fans in the Lakers forums?

I get what you are saying...I just find it hard to believe that almost everybody was fooled by the marketing EXCEPT a small collection of Lakers fans lol.

Anilyzer
04-03-2011, 09:19 PM
This is the POST OF THE CENTURY. Couldnt have said it better myself.

The hyped and marketed the HELL out of Jordan as the definitive "GOAT" much too soon. The bottom line is the public, AND the NBA weren't READY for a supreme talent like "81" to arrive so soon and challenge what they had marketed down our throats for the entire 90's.

People have trouble accepting Kobe as the GOAT because he came SO SOON after the media and NBA spoonfed the masses of sheep for the better part of a decade that Jordan was the GOAT. Period. The masses are still blinded by that marketing blitz, but that will change very, very soon.

When kobe rips ring #7 from his latest victim of a team, everyone will have NO CHOICE but to swallow the cold, hard truth and watch 24 with begrudging admiration.

Yes it's totally true (although not the "post of the century" thing, however, thank you very much).

And just as Kobe's greatness started to get airborne, they start with the Lebron hype. I mean they were already annointing Lebron as the future GOAT while he was still in High School! Meanwhile every coach, gm and player was saying that Kobe was the best player on the planet, year in and year out, and his teams were coming together beautifully, tough as nails, winning a fistful of rings.

And they gave MVP after MVP to Nash, Lebron--basically anyone who could average 30 points and some good stats would get the MVP instead of Kobe. It should be called the "Averaged 30+ and name not Kobe" award instead of MVP. Of course I wouldn't argue that Lebron was more valuable to the Cavs... Lebron was a legit "MVP". But ultimately you have to play for the championship and that determines who is best.

The thing with Jordan... no team in the modern era had done the "3-peat", so when it happened, with some at times questionable refereeing and tons of help from Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen along the way, people were really "wowed."

Meanwhile the league was hyping Jordan like there was no tomorrow, and probably 1/4 of the GDP and the NYSE were probably riding on whether Jordan would retire as an undefeated legend. ****, they had probably already borrowed every $dollar$ that was projected to be made from every sneaker or bottle of Gatorade to be sold for the next ten years and reinvested it with heavy leverage into more Jordan ad campaigns. Like if Jordan had gone all "Michael Jackson" or something, the entire economy might've collapsed.

So during the SECOND three peat, announcers were just openly saying "Ok, if he makes this next shot, he is the best ever."

"If Michael Jordan wins this next title, there can be no doubt EVER in ANYONE'S mind, that Jordan is the best who ever lived."

"If Jordan wins one more Finals MVP, there can be NO DOUBT."

"If Jordan makes this shot, NO ONE, ever, can say he wasn't the best ever."

Then it's all like *wheeeeeeeee* Jordan made the shot! And the free throw! And they win the game! And the Title! And he's the MVP! *wheeeeeeeee* He's the best for ever and ever and ever! *wheeeeeee* See you next year!

I mean even Barkley, for pete's sake, pointed out that when Kobe had some amazing games like in last year's playoffs and Finals, that it's unbelievable that the media doesn't talk about it more--that if any other player had the same game, it would be on the front page of everything. Maybe it's the perceived arrogance... every girl I know always says that Kobe is very arrogant and that they don't like him for some reason. I think he is completely awesome, and his "coldness" is just that he keeps his **** wired tight.

whitemamba33
04-03-2011, 10:36 PM
Yes it's totally true (although not the "post of the century" thing, however, thank you very much).

And just as Kobe's greatness started to get airborne, they start with the Lebron hype. I mean they were already annointing Lebron as the future GOAT while he was still in High School! Meanwhile every coach, gm and player was saying that Kobe was the best player on the planet, year in and year out, and his teams were coming together beautifully, tough as nails, winning a fistful of rings.

And they gave MVP after MVP to Nash, Lebron--basically anyone who could average 30 points and some good stats would get the MVP instead of Kobe. It should be called the "Averaged 30+ and name not Kobe" award instead of MVP. Of course I wouldn't argue that Lebron was more valuable to the Cavs... Lebron was a legit "MVP". But ultimately you have to play for the championship and that determines who is best.

The thing with Jordan... no team in the modern era had done the "3-peat", so when it happened, with some at times questionable refereeing and tons of help from Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen along the way, people were really "wowed."

Meanwhile the league was hyping Jordan like there was no tomorrow, and probably 1/4 of the GDP and the NYSE were probably riding on whether Jordan would retire as an undefeated legend. ****, they had probably already borrowed every $dollar$ that was projected to be made from every sneaker or bottle of Gatorade to be sold for the next ten years and reinvested it with heavy leverage into more Jordan ad campaigns. Like if Jordan had gone all "Michael Jackson" or something, the entire economy might've collapsed.

So during the SECOND three peat, announcers were just openly saying "Ok, if he makes this next shot, he is the best ever."

"If Michael Jordan wins this next title, there can be no doubt EVER in ANYONE'S mind, that Jordan is the best who ever lived."

"If Jordan wins one more Finals MVP, there can be NO DOUBT."

"If Jordan makes this shot, NO ONE, ever, can say he wasn't the best ever."

Then it's all like *wheeeeeeeee* Jordan made the shot! And the free throw! And they win the game! And the Title! And he's the MVP! *wheeeeeeeee* He's the best for ever and ever and ever! *wheeeeeee* See you next year!

I mean even Barkley, for pete's sake, pointed out that when Kobe had some amazing games like in last year's playoffs and Finals, that it's unbelievable that the media doesn't talk about it more--that if any other player had the same game, it would be on the front page of everything. Maybe it's the perceived arrogance... every girl I know always says that Kobe is very arrogant and that they don't like him for some reason. I think he is completely awesome, and his "coldness" is just that he keeps his **** wired tight.

I counted MAYBE 2 facts in this entire post.

Anybody else do any better?

lol I find it funny that not even your quotes are real quotes.

But i'm not hating..you do what you do.

D_Rose1118
04-04-2011, 01:29 AM
Just read this whole entire thread, every single post and all I have to say is that I feel so bad for you whitemamba, you shutdown every single argument with facts and these Kobe lovers just don't get it, he is presenting facts people, no personal opinions. He even took the your coaches call on this one and showed that he would take Jordan. He demolished everyone in this argument so bad it had me laughing at some of the tries at a response. I was going to try to throw some more facts out there but they have all been thrown out there.

And please tell me how that Jordan retiring because his father had been brutally murdered makes him not the GOAT? And how Kobe would never do that, you know what Jordan would never do, commit adultery(and I dontcare if she was mentally unstable, kobe wasnt and he should know not to do it) demand a trade from his team, LOSE IN THE FINALS. TWICE.
And I am a bulls fan and I love Scottie pippen but he didnt nearly win them a title in 94', they lost in the semi finals, if that is close then I guess Lebron got pretty darn close last year, right?

And no I am not a Kobe hater he is my 2nd favorite player right now, but he there is no argument for him being the GOAT except for what he COULD do. Please bring this topic to the bulls forum where the non idiot bulls fans are and you guys come to, so it will be even with Jordan and Kobe fans and just maybe you guys will see the difference in these two amazing players.

Anilyzer
04-04-2011, 01:55 AM
Just read this whole entire thread, every single post and all I have to say is that I feel so bad for you whitemamba, you shutdown every single argument with facts and these Kobe lovers just don't get it, he is presenting facts people, no personal opinions. He even took the your coaches call on this one and showed that he would take Jordan. He demolished everyone in this argument so bad it had me laughing at some of the tries at a response. I was going to try to throw some more facts out there but they have all been thrown out there.

And please tell me how that Jordan retiring because his father had been brutally murdered makes him not the GOAT? And how Kobe would never do that, you know what Jordan would never do, commit adultery(and I dontcare if she was mentally unstable, kobe wasnt and he should know not to do it) demand a trade from his team, LOSE IN THE FINALS. TWICE.
And I am a bulls fan and I love Scottie pippen but he didnt nearly win them a title in 94', they lost in the semi finals, if that is close then I guess Lebron got pretty darn close last year, right?

And no I am not a Kobe hater he is my 2nd favorite player right now, but he there is no argument for him being the GOAT except for what he COULD do. Please bring this topic to the bulls forum where the non idiot bulls fans are and you guys come to, so it will be even with Jordan and Kobe fans and just maybe you guys will see the difference in these two amazing players.


Not to put down Jordan at all... but for pete's sake, the guy had all kinds of adultery going on, he even got sued by at least one woman and had to pay her a settlement or something, but somehow convinced his wife to stay onboard. But I'm definitely not downgrading him for that. Basketball stars, if they are real stars, will always have some sexy women jockin' them. That's part of the dealio, and I don't know who suddenly invented this ridiculous idea, loosely based on the psychotic and discredited nympho's phoney rape charges against Kobe, that an NBA superstar partying with some hot babes is somehow a bad thing. Let's forget that idea, ok?

And yeah... whitemamba should definitely bring his argument to the Chicago Bulls forum, they will like it MUCH better there. Jordan may have retired 10 years ago, but anybody who will make a lot of noise about how Jordan is still "Da' Best" along with "Da' Bulls" and "Da' Bears" will get a lot of appreciation there.

Anilyzer
04-04-2011, 01:59 AM
I counted MAYBE 2 facts in this entire post.

Anybody else do any better?

lol I find it funny that not even your quotes are real quotes.

But i'm not hating..you do what you do.

Jesus you talk so much smack. Like you are still convinced that you've posted some awesome facts that somehow prove your case that Jordan was the definitive GOAT.

Here, I'll call your bluff: Give me your top 4 facts, like 1. fact 2. fact 3. fact 4. fact and then draw a line and say that proves irrefutably that Jordan is the GOAT. Go ahead and try.

Anilyzer
04-04-2011, 02:03 AM
Like, uh, for sure it's also undeniable that the '85 Bears were the Greatest Team in NFL History.

It's irrefutable, right? Let's pull out all the numbers. Wow, there they are. And we can hear quotes from freakin' Dick Butkus and Sammy Davis Jr. or some ****. And a bunch of reasons why they're superior to the great Patriot, Steeler, Raider or 49r teams. What can I possibly say?

D_Rose1118
04-04-2011, 05:43 AM
Exactly dude what can you say when you are out numbered by a ton of biased people? The way you described bulls fans is the way you guys sound right now about Kobe, it's ridiculous... Look at the statistics and if u wanna say that Jordan has two years missing then go ahead, but you know that means. It means it took Jordan 2 years less to be ahead of Kobe Bryant in nearly every statistical category, so that isn't helping Kobe. And you can't say jordans heart wasn't in it cause everyone knows Jordan had heart and was a competitor. I know Kobe is a competitor but where is his signature finals game, probably the one against the pacers or the celtics last year correct? Well if you point to that I'll point to 2008 game 6 where he looked like Lebron in the celtics series. Say what you will about jordans personal life but when it was the finals mike didn't lose. EVER

whitemamba33
04-04-2011, 12:27 PM
Exactly dude what can you say when you are out numbered by a ton of biased people? The way you described bulls fans is the way you guys sound right now about Kobe, it's ridiculous... Look at the statistics and if u wanna say that Jordan has two years missing then go ahead, but you know that means. It means it took Jordan 2 years less to be ahead of Kobe Bryant in nearly every statistical category, so that isn't helping Kobe. And you can't say jordans heart wasn't in it cause everyone knows Jordan had heart and was a competitor. I know Kobe is a competitor but where is his signature finals game, probably the one against the pacers or the celtics last year correct? Well if you point to that I'll point to 2008 game 6 where he looked like Lebron in the celtics series. Say what you will about jordans personal life but when it was the finals mike didn't lose. EVER

but but but....

Jordan was photographed smoking cigars...

PS. I'm not lying..that was really one of his arguments.

D_Rose1118
04-04-2011, 01:37 PM
That one had me rolling haha I honestly thought it was a joke

JordansBulls
04-04-2011, 02:40 PM
Kobe and Jordan will always be compared because they both are about the same height, same build, similar style game and was coached by Phil Jackson. Both are explosive and both are assasins. The big difference is the overall productivity of the two. Kobe for instance in none of the seasons he has won titles has led his own team in win shares on the season. Now that doesn't mean he wasn't the best, but when you are comparing someone to other all time greats that always led their teams in overall production and most of the time the league that means a lot.

Gasol led the team in Win Shares and PER in the season and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares.

The Gasol vs Kobe is like the Nash vs Amare in 2005. Amare outproduced Nash, but Nash was the team's better player.

Same thing with Gasol and Kobe.

Difference here is this doesn't help Kobe's case when dealing with MJ, simply because whenever MJ won and whenever he was on the Bulls he led the team in PER and Win Shares in both the season and playoffs.


PLAYOFFS
1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 27.08
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.16
5. Tim Duncan 25.74
6. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
7. Tracy McGrady 24.66
8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.66
9. Charles Barkley* 24.18
10. Dwyane Wade 24.04


REGULAR SEASON
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. LeBron James 26.86
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.59
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Dwyane Wade 25.67
7. Bob Pettit* 25.37
8. Tim Duncan 25.02
9. Neil Johnston* 24.72
10. Charles Barkley* 24.63
11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
12. Magic Johnson* 24.11

MJ led in Playoff Win Shares 7x and Russell 5x. The most for any player

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html

1. Michael Jordan* 39.76
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 35.56
3. Magic Johnson* 32.63
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.46
5. Shaquille O'Neal 31.08
6. Tim Duncan 28.61
7. Bill Russell* 27.76
8. Julius Erving* 26.89
9. Jerry West* 26.75
10. Kobe Bryant 26.12



MJ led in Season Win Shares 9x and Wilt and Kareem as well led in it 9x. The most for any player

MJ led in Playoff Offensive Win Shares 7x and Jerry West 6x and Magic 4x. The most for any player

MJ led in Offensive Win Shares 8x and Kareem 6x and Neil Johnson 5x and Wilt 4x. The most for any player

Kareem led in Playoff PER 7x and MJ 6x (also led in it in 1986 with a 30 PER, so really 7x) and Wilt 6x. The most for any player

Kareem led in WS Per 48 Minutes 9x and MJ 8x and Wilt 8x, the most for any player

1. Michael Jordan* 0.2505
2. David Robinson* 0.2502
3. Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2480
4. Neil Johnston* 0.2413
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2284
6. Magic Johnson* 0.2249
7. LeBron James 0.2242
8. Tim Duncan 0.2190
9. Manu Ginobili 0.2167
10. Charles Barkley* 0.2163




MJ and Kareem both led in WS per 48 Minutes in the playoffs 5x, the most for any Player.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career_p.html

1. Michael Jordan* 0.2553
2. George Mikan* 0.2541
3. LeBron James 0.2287
4. Magic Johnson* 0.2078
5. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2059
6. Tim Duncan 0.2037
7. Jerry West* 0.2031
8. Wilt Chamberlain* 0.1998
9. David Robinson* 0.1992



It's hard to compare Kobe to MJ, simply because not only does MJ have better numbers, but he has more accolades and is one of the top 4 most productive players ever. Not to mention he won all his titles as the best player in the nba with hardly any debate about it.


Another thing that means a lot is the franchises they went to. Kobe went to one of the most successfull franchises in not only NBA History but sports history. Lakers had already won 11 titles and had been to 24 finals before Kobe ever even came to the franchise. Jordan went to a franchise had done absolutely ****. Had 0 finals appearances and of course no titles.

Winning is important, but it depends on how you win as well. Playing for an organization that is known for winning is pretty simple. For instance, the Lakers are a winning organization so it is easy for top 3-5 players in the league playing with LA to win titles. Nearly every decade they have been in the finals and/or won Titles. So obviously when a big name is there they will win. That won't happen with any other franchise automatically except maybe Boston.
50's - Mikan (3 titles)
60's - West/Baylor (6 finals)
70's - West (1 title)/Kareem
80's - Magic/Kareem (5 titles)
90's - Magic (first two years), Shaq (last 3 years)
00's - Shaq (first year)/Shaq/Kobe next 2 years/Kobe last 2 years.

Now if this were the Sixers or Knicks teams that won in the past but a long time ago, then it would have been different.


Bulls were not a winning organization until MJ came along and and since he left still is a losing organization

Any star player who plays with the Lakers wins titles. It is a guarantee.

Now if Kobe went to an organization like Indiana from the get go or even a franchise like Dallas who never won anything then his legacy would be better.

That is why I believe winning with franchises that never were known for winning makes a players legacy greater.


Kobe has a chance to be top 3-4 alltime, but he won't catch MJ. His prime wasn't dominant enough.

srekal
04-04-2011, 03:18 PM
I'll take Phil's opinion over yours any day of the week.

Nobody ever "called-out" my posts..not successfully anyways. Other posters came up with some stats, which I guess they had to because the good lord knows that you never would lol. Showing that there was a decrease in scoring doesn't describe which positions were affected the most. As I've already shown in a post earlier, the pre-zone defense era saw big men routinely make appearences among the list of top 5 scorers in the league. Zone defense changed this. It made it harder for big men to score. Now you see perimeter players leading scoring, and it's because zone defense doesn't affect them as much. Go read the quote that I posted from Stu Jackson. Zone defense made it easier for perimeter players, not harder.

Big men fell off as the scoring leaders..so naturally there was a decrease in average scoring. But NOTHING has been provided by you or anyone else to prove that the game was made more difficult for perimeter players. When I get that, i'll admit i've been "called-out".

I don't care about your Jordan/Kobe argument which can only be resolved by saying they are both basketball legends that we are lucky to have seen in their prime. I will "call out" your flawed argument. While true, big men may have been effected more than perimeter players with the zone... the players most effected are "the best players on each team"!

Topballs
04-04-2011, 03:44 PM
I think JordansBulls makes some great points here. The only point you make that i have issues with is the winning franchise aspect. While it is true that Lakers are a winning franchise, they win because they are able to acquire the talent. Your point seems to argue in the direction that the players are winning BECAUSE they are playing for the franchise. If you really look at it, starting from the magic era, they won because they had magic/kareem, two of the top 5 basketball players to ever step foot on the court, not to mention some of the greatest roll players/hall-of-famers ever, to support them.

I think overall, the stats brought up from some of the pro-jordan arguers are more than valid, and ultimately show how Jordan is more efficient, and more productive..That should be enough to settle the debate. I dont think anyone can dispute that. I also agree that people should let the "Jordan retired for two years in his prime" aspect go. I dont think pro-kobe arguers have the right to use that as a way to diminish anything jordan did. For the same reason I think its just as ridiculous for pro-jordan arguers to say "He would have done this if he didnt retire" Both sides are arbitrary and it needs to be left alone. Just take it out of the argument.

The point of this thread was not really addressed, and that is this: I do think it will be hard for Kobe to be considered GOAT when its all said and done... But stats can only tell a portion of the story when actually watching a game, and I dont think kobe has ever played with a mindset to worry about his statistics during a season. Of coarse somebody arguing against Kobe is going to have a hard time acknowledging that as a valid point... Kobe. in my personal opinion, can make more amazing individual plays, and commands a compelling argument for being the greatest pure offensive player / 1 on 1 player (still not saying that he is, but rather it's good argument). Phil said it best: [Kobe is the more skilled player, but Jordan had BILLION dollar hands, and that is the difference, especially regarding shooting %]. I'm paraphrasing and anyone can youtube that interview and find it, i'm just lazy. Kobe, however, is playing in a generation with way more athleticism and skill. Talent and skill get better with each new generation, not only for basketball, but for every sport there is. People that try to say that Jordan played in a harder era are simply wrong. There are certainly arguments on both sides of the hand-check rule, and the zone-defense rule, BUT competition getting better with each new generation is certainly a real issue. One other important aspect about this argument is the ring count. People that dont like to acknowledge rings are just being hypocrites. A huge part of what makes jordan the greatest is his rings. If he did not have them then it would be a much more compelling argument to consider Magic the greatest, or at the very least have an argument for Magic being the best player to build a team around, excluding starting a team around a center. My point on rings is that if Kobe wins more rings than Jordan, playing in an era with more skill and talent, it certainly helps his case for being the greatest player. Bringing up things like "Well Horry has 7, so rings dont matter in this argument" are things that are completely not valid, and miss the point of what it means to have someone like Kobe or Jordan win them.

All in all, people that say Kobe is better right now lose some of their credibility in my opinion. The real debate can begin after Kobe has retired, and being considered GREATER than MJ is going to be an improbable hurtle to jump over. Kobe could have a great chance of being considered the second best player thought, which isnt something to cry about is it? Jordan is the best player of his generation, and kobe is the best player of his - pretty sweet titles if you ask me.

Jahari Kavi
04-04-2011, 05:54 PM
Kobe is top 10-12 on my list...i just think other greats could do more for their teams with less

Bruno
04-04-2011, 06:16 PM
Kobe is top 10-12 on my list...i just think other greats could do more for their teams with less

Which 11 players do you put in front of Bryant?

mfb_lt1birdman
04-04-2011, 06:21 PM
I really think things will stay MJ GOAT and Kobe winds up as number 2. MJ clearly wins the stat department which is really the easiest objective way to compare the two. However I have noticed that MJ has taken more shots in most of his seasons than Kobe, and I believe to this day more career FGA as well. This is partially why their True Shooting % are so similar. I also feel Kobe's first few seasons, like MJ's stint with the Wizards should be eliminated from comparisons. Kobe came off the bench and MJ, was well passed his prime. Finally I would like to see stats adjusted for pace as well. Its a fact teams scored more in MJ's era based on more possessions, and I feel lesser defenses. Just saying it would be an interesting comparison. I have not found much on this online but I think I will try to put something together in time.

mfb_lt1birdman
04-04-2011, 06:23 PM
The one other thing no one can take away from MJ is he maximized every opportunity and always came out the winner. 6 for 6 on championships. He made the most of clutch, legend defining moments in the finals as well. Kobe has done well, but nowhere near MJ in this department.

whitemamba33
04-04-2011, 06:52 PM
I don't care about your Jordan/Kobe argument which can only be resolved by saying they are both basketball legends that we are lucky to have seen in their prime. I will "call out" your flawed argument. While true, big men may have been effected more than perimeter players with the zone... the players most effected are "the best players on each team"!

Not. one. fact.

I'm sorry, but you can't call-out my facts with your opinion. If you want to prove me wrong, put some numbers behind those statements of yours. I'm tired of telling people what their opinion should be. All i'm doing now is letting the facts speak for themselves.

kArSoN RyDaH
04-04-2011, 07:51 PM
JB- What does history of the Lakers franchise have anything to do with Kobe Bryant's success? Nothing.

kArSoN RyDaH
04-04-2011, 07:52 PM
There is not one player I would want on my team other than Kobe Bryant if my life was on the line. Simple and plain. You can take Wilt, MJ, Magic, The Big O, Duncan, give me the Mamba.

Chacarron
04-04-2011, 08:01 PM
There is not one player I would want on my team other than Kobe Bryant if my life was on the line. Simple and plain. You can take Wilt, MJ, Magic, The Big O, Duncan, give me the Mamba.

So, you like living dangerously? :D

I would take Jordan.

kArSoN RyDaH
04-04-2011, 08:29 PM
No because I actually love living. lol.


And I want a guy who loves the sport too much to leave it for another. ;)

D_Rose1118
04-04-2011, 08:41 PM
No because I actually love living. lol.


And I want a guy who loves the sport too much to leave it for another. ;)

at least the guy who left Never lost in the finals
or quit in a series deciding game, and didn't jack up shot after shot when they weren't falling(04' finals)
or demand a trade cause everything wasn't going perfect.

but if you want that guy go ahead i will take the guy with the perfect finals record.

kArSoN RyDaH
04-04-2011, 08:57 PM
or maybe the guy who lost two finals lost because his star big men were injured. 04 finals shaq wasn't fully healthy.

in 08 finals bynum was injured. whats ur point?

ill take the guy who will shoot 50 shots to get us a victory because it shows he is going to do everything in his power to win. you make it seem as if Kobe lost us those finals. there were a lot of other deciding factors.

or how about the guy who just doesn't want to do anything but play basketball. yeah, ill take that guy. because the guy who never lost in a finals didn't love the game enough to even attempt trying to win 4 championships in a row.

D_Rose1118
04-04-2011, 09:11 PM
or maybe the guy who lost two finals lost because his star big men were injured. 04 finals shaq wasn't fully healthy.

in 08 finals bynum was injured. whats ur point?

ill take the guy who will shoot 50 shots to get us a victory because it shows he is going to do everything in his power to win. you make it seem as if Kobe lost us those finals. there were a lot of other deciding factors.

or how about the guy who just doesn't want to do anything but play basketball. yeah, ill take that guy. because the guy who never lost in a finals didn't love the game enough to even attempt trying to win 4 championships in a row.

1- well Kobe was healthy so he should have at least performed better than he did, Karl Malone isn't the reason Kobe wasn't scoring efficiently
-once again bynum isnt the reason kobe went 7-22 in that series deciding game that was over by the end of the 1st half, never would you see jordan let down his team like that in a finals game.

2- you think jordan doesnt know about forcing up 50 shots to do anything to win, what do you think the Jordan Rules were made for?? Jordan had to put up 50 shots a game for the Bulls to even be near those pistons teams, then Pippen and Grant matured and the Bulls were too much to handle

3- lets see how kobe reacts to the murder of his father and the media completely trashing him during the 93' finals, lets see if his heart is still in it in the end, some things are bigger then basketball.

whitemamba33
04-04-2011, 09:32 PM
or maybe the guy who lost two finals lost because his star big men were injured. 04 finals shaq wasn't fully healthy.

in 08 finals bynum was injured. whats ur point?

ill take the guy who will shoot 50 shots to get us a victory because it shows he is going to do everything in his power to win. you make it seem as if Kobe lost us those finals. there were a lot of other deciding factors.

or how about the guy who just doesn't want to do anything but play basketball. yeah, ill take that guy. because the guy who never lost in a finals didn't love the game enough to even attempt trying to win 4 championships in a row.

Jordan also never had to make excuses about why he lost in an NBA finals. Just saying. The Lakers team that went against the Celtics was good enough to win. As a Lakers fan, even I know that. Boston came in and destroyed us on our home court. Doc Rivers is still making excuses why they didn't beat us last year (Perkins), I'm not going to do the same.

The Lakers team that played the Pistons in the finals was good enough to win.

If your boy was as good as you make him out to be, he wouldn't need excuses. I sure as hell know that Jordan didn't need any.

GREATNESS ONE
04-05-2011, 12:30 AM
Jordan also never had to make excuses about why he lost in an NBA finals. Just saying. The Lakers team that went against the Celtics was good enough to win. As a Lakers fan, even I know that. Boston came in and destroyed us on our home court. Doc Rivers is still making excuses why they didn't beat us last year (Perkins), I'm not going to do the same.

The Lakers team that played the Pistons in the finals was good enough to win.

If your boy was as good as you make him out to be, he wouldn't need excuses. I sure as hell know that Jordan didn't need any.

:confused::confused::confused:WOW you're a Laker fan?

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 12:37 AM
:confused::confused::confused:WOW you're a Laker fan?

Yep. For the sake of this argument, I'm siding with Jordan. But as i've already stated many times, Kobe is definitly my fav player in the league, and will go down as one of the greats to play the game when it's all done. I think I'm doing more for Kobe than the other people are. Comparing him to Jordan doesn't help him, it hurts him. I'm content with what Kobe has done. I don't need to make up excuses to try and pass him off as something more than that.

I'm just not biased.

Bruno
04-05-2011, 12:55 AM
If your boy was as good as you make him out to be, he wouldn't need excuses. I sure as hell know that Jordan didn't need any.

I've never heard Kobe make an excuse.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 01:06 AM
I've never heard Kobe make an excuse.

Neither have I.

To clarify, I meant that people shouldn't need to make excuses for him. Jordan is the GOAT without excuses. Kobe needs them to even be in this argument.

Anilyzer
04-05-2011, 01:18 AM
Jordan also never had to make excuses about why he lost in an NBA finals. Just saying. The Lakers team that went against the Celtics was good enough to win. As a Lakers fan, even I know that. Boston came in and destroyed us on our home court. Doc Rivers is still making excuses why they didn't beat us last year (Perkins), I'm not going to do the same.

The Lakers team that played the Pistons in the finals was good enough to win.

If your boy was as good as you make him out to be, he wouldn't need excuses. I sure as hell know that Jordan didn't need any.

You know... at that level, at the level of the Finals... even during the 90's when the West teams were mostly pretty weak... the games are often decided by a handful of points.

For instance, let's say there's 100+ possessions in the game. The final score of the game is 88-86.

The free throw differential is +6 for the Bulls. Scottie Pippen totally outplayed his guy and scored 22 pts on 7-11 shooting. The opposing point guard went only 2-8 from three point land.

If Pippen had missed one extra shot, or the opposing point guard had made one extra 3, or if one or two less fouls had been called in the 2nd quarter or whatever, the other team wins and the Bulls lose in the Finals and don't get the 3-peat.

So again, there is an air of the ridiculous to say "Ok, now Jordan has secured another Title, now this proves everything." Like, now that the whole team for the whole season, including Rodman, Pippen, Phil Jackson, everybody--they get to the Title and NOW ok now it's safe to hand over all the credit to Jordan.

Like, Jordan is the greatest ever, and could never be matched! But if BJ Armstrong had missed a three pointer at the end then we would invalidate all that and say some other guy was the best.

That just proves we're talking about really subjective stuff. Like if BJ Armstrong had missed that shot, then the Bulls would be 5-1 in the Finals, and Kobe would be 5-2, and the whole "ring based" argument for Jordan goes out the window essentially.

Similarly, if not for the HORRIBLE refereeing against Chicago during the Knicks series while Jordan was retired, or Jordan rushing back unprepared the next season before the playoffs and trying to lead the team, Pippen and Phil might've won two MORE titles without Jordan, so they would've completed the "5-peat" but Jordan would only have 3 rings. Then ultimately Pippen would have 8 rings and Jordan 6.

And then again, the Jordan is best based on rings argument flies out the window. And, realistically, if it weren't for a missed shot here, or a ridiculous phantom touch foul with 0.03 seconds left on a 3-pointer there, that WOULD in fact possibly be the reality.

Anilyzer
04-05-2011, 01:21 AM
But hey... once they get that 2nd three-peat completed, no matter how, and Jordan gets the MVP, it justs forever becomes "a fact" in the mind of every drunken sausage eater forever and ever that Jordan is the best who's ever lived

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 01:25 AM
You know... at that level, at the level of the Finals... even during the 90's when the West teams were mostly pretty weak... the games are often decided by a handful of points.

For instance, let's say there's 100+ possessions in the game. The final score of the game is 88-86.

The free throw differential is +6 for the Bulls. Scottie Pippen totally outplayed his guy and scored 22 pts on 7-11 shooting. The opposing point guard went only 2-8 from three point land.

If Pippen had missed one extra shot, or the opposing point guard had made one extra 3, or if one or two less fouls had been called in the 2nd quarter or whatever, the other team wins and the Bulls lose in the Finals and don't get the 3-peat.

So again, there is an air of the ridiculous to say "Ok, now Jordan has secured another Title, now this proves everything." Like, now that the whole team for the whole season, including Rodman, Pippen, Phil Jackson, everybody--they get to the Title and NOW ok now it's safe to hand over all the credit to Jordan.

Like, Jordan is the greatest ever, and could never be matched! But if BJ Armstrong had missed a three pointer at the end then we would invalidate all that and say some other guy was the best.

That just proves we're talking about really subjective stuff. Like if BJ Armstrong had missed that shot, then the Bulls would be 5-1 in the Finals, and Kobe would be 5-2, and the whole "ring based" argument for Jordan goes out the window essentially.

Similarly, if not for the HORRIBLE refereeing against Chicago during the Knicks series while Jordan was retired, or Jordan rushing back unprepared the next season before the playoffs and trying to lead the team, Pippen and Phil might've won two MORE titles without Jordan, so they would've completed the "5-peat" but Jordan would only have 3 rings. Then ultimately Pippen would have 8 rings and Jordan 6.

And then again, the Jordan is best based on rings argument flies out the window. And, realistically, if it weren't for a missed shot here, or a ridiculous phantom touch foul with 0.03 seconds left on a 3-pointer there, that WOULD in fact possibly be the reality.

lol really? MORE EXCUSES?

Your post is filled with "ifs".

What's wrong with facts? Do they make you break out in hives or something? It's kind of sad that they only way you can win try and win this argument is to live in a fantasy world where Jordan didn't win 6 championships.

You are taking this argument to a new low. Now only do you not use any facts at all, but now you aren't even arguing using things that actually happened..you are just making stuff up lol.

Sad.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 01:27 AM
But hey... once they get that 2nd three-peat completed, no matter how, and Jordan gets the MVP, it justs forever becomes "a fact" in the mind of every drunken sausage eater forever and ever that Jordan is the best who's ever lived

Or to anyone who has respect for Phil Jacksons/Kobe's opinions and can interpret some simple statistics.

The fact that Kobe himself refers to Jordan as the GOAT means that you can NEVEr win this argument..you do realize that right?

Chacarron
04-05-2011, 01:29 AM
No because I actually love living. lol.


And I want a guy who loves the sport too much to leave it for another. ;)

To each his own.

Anilyzer
04-05-2011, 01:35 AM
But stats can only tell a portion of the story when actually watching a game, and I dont think kobe has ever played with a mindset to worry about his statistics during a season. Of coarse somebody arguing against Kobe is going to have a hard time acknowledging that as a valid point... Kobe. in my personal opinion, can make more amazing individual plays, and commands a compelling argument for being the greatest pure offensive player / 1 on 1 player

Personally, I would love to see Kobe go one on one with Jordan, head to head for a series, with both in their primes. Kobe has way more range and versatility on offense, while Jordan was certainly incredible. However, if it was Artest guarding Jordan, and Jordan guarding Kobe... Jordan gets used and abused I think.

Actually, I've said this before, but the team concept and teammates have SOOOO much to do with the ultimate outcomes. It's the system, the team and the teammates who eventually determine who got all the rings and who got 2nd place.

For instance, Dwayne Wade, to my mind, is EXACTLY like Jordan. His talents and skills and style are uncannily similar to Jordan when I see him play. Of course, running the "Spoelstra special" offense or whatever, he will just be a really really good player and eventual hall of famer.

If Wade spent his career playing for Phil Jackson on a top notch team, HE'D probably have 6 rings and we'd be talking about HIM as the possible GOAT. Same thing with Lebron.

All that being said, I believe that Kobe, at his ultimate best, goes over and above every other player in terms of offensive perfection. At his ultimate best, such as when he was on the roll leading up to the 81... there is just nothing like Kobe in history. And if Jordan was out there, Jordan would get outscored 81-35 or whatever. Just no doubt.

Of course Magic, Jordan, Dr J, Hakeem and others, as well as Kobe... they all had seasons or moments when they were just untouchable. Ultimately though I think that offensively Kobe has more range from outside and therefore more versatility on offense than Jordan. It's obvious that Kobe's outside game has far more authority to it. I mean I've seen MJ hit uncontested 3s from the line how many times... spot up 3s.

Defenders guard Kobe right in his face from 28 feet in, because he's redefined the game and 25 feet is a virtual layup for him.

Anilyzer
04-05-2011, 01:43 AM
lol really? MORE EXCUSES?

Your post is filled with "ifs".

What's wrong with facts? Do they make you break out in hives or something? It's kind of sad that they only way you can win try and win this argument is to live in a fantasy world where Jordan didn't win 6 championships.

You are taking this argument to a new low. Now only do you not use any facts at all, but now you aren't even arguing using things that actually happened..you are just making stuff up lol.

Sad.

Well, if we're talking purely results, no excuses, just "show me the rings" and "show me the playoff wins", no excuses, just who had the better career...

then, again, Jordan has an ugly two year whole in his career while he was playing baseball, and Kobe will very likely show you more rings.

If Kobe has three more hot seasons, Kobe could show you 80+ MORE playoff wins than Jordan, which is just crazy.

But clearly, though, awarding Jordan all the accolades and annointing him "GOAT" or "BEST EVER" based on whether or not BJ Armstrong's shot goes down is ridiculous.

And ultimately, as I've said, it is Phil Jackson who is the MVP. Otherwise Jordan is just another Wade/Barkley type guy who goes wild on the league for 12 seasons and gets no rings.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 01:47 AM
Personally, I would love to see Kobe go one on one with Jordan, head to head for a series, with both in their primes. Kobe has way more range and versatility on offense, while Jordan was certainly incredible. However, if it was Artest guarding Jordan, and Jordan guarding Kobe... Jordan gets used and abused I think.

Actually, I've said this before, but the team concept and teammates have SOOOO much to do with the ultimate outcomes. It's the system, the team and the teammates who eventually determine who got all the rings and who got 2nd place.

For instance, Dwayne Wade, to my mind, is EXACTLY like Jordan. His talents and skills and style are uncannily similar to Jordan when I see him play. Of course, running the "Spoelstra special" offense or whatever, he will just be a really really good player and eventual hall of famer.

If Wade spent his career playing for Phil Jackson on a top notch team, HE'D probably have 6 rings and we'd be talking about HIM as the possible GOAT. Same thing with Lebron.

All that being said, I believe that Kobe, at his ultimate best, goes over and above every other player in terms of offensive perfection. At his ultimate best, such as when he was on the roll leading up to the 81... there is just nothing like Kobe in history. And if Jordan was out there, Jordan would get outscored 81-35 or whatever. Just no doubt.

Of course Magic, Jordan, Dr J, Hakeem and others, as well as Kobe... they all had seasons or moments when they were just untouchable. Ultimately though I think that offensively Kobe has more range from outside and therefore more versatility on offense than Jordan. It's obvious that Kobe's outside game has far more authority to it. I mean I've seen MJ hit uncontested 3s from the line how many times... spot up 3s.

Defenders guard Kobe right in his face from 28 feet in, because he's redefined the game and 25 feet is a virtual layup for him.

Even Ron Artest admits that Jordan would drop 50 on him in his prime, so I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you on your Jordan VS Kobe + Artest idea.

The rest of your post is, again, filled with things that didn't actually happen. I'm not surprised.

There are a lot of players in the league that have more range than Jordan. Would you take Jordan or Ray Allen? Jordan or Jason Kapono? Jordan or Reggie Miller? Shaq has some of the most limited range EVER, yet the man was an absolute beast. Range alone isn't going to decide who the GOAT of all time is..not in my mind anyways. There is only a 1% difference in 3 point shooting, and Jordan had MUCH MUCH MUCH better efficiency. I'll take that trade off.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 01:50 AM
Well, if we're talking purely results, no excuses, just "show me the rings" and "show me the playoff wins", no excuses, just who had the better career...

then, again, Jordan has an ugly two year whole in his career while he was playing baseball, and Kobe will very likely show you more rings.

If Kobe has three more hot seasons, Kobe could show you 80+ MORE playoff wins than Jordan, which is just crazy.

But clearly, though, awarding Jordan all the accolades and annointing him "GOAT" or "BEST EVER" based on whether or not BJ Armstrong's shot goes down is ridiculous.

And ultimately, as I've said, it is Phil Jackson who is the MVP. Otherwise Jordan is just another Wade/Barkley type guy who goes wild on the league for 12 seasons and gets no rings.

"Will very likely..."

"If Kobe has..."

Got any facts?

The 2 year "hole" in Jordan's career just means that Jordan was able to do more than Kobe and in less time. Jordan's career, much like his statistics, were more efficient.

da wood
04-05-2011, 02:21 AM
man if you dont stop saying kobe and phil are saying jordan is better... he didnt say that he said they were the same player that the only advantage jordan had on kobe is that he had the biggest hand you would ever see.......also here fact for you jordans era didnt have the perimeter defenders that kobe faces. jordan never faced anything like that in there life. yeah he always beat the western team with the bigs yeah because jordan always had bigs to match up. but nobody matched up with jordan.

Anilyzer
04-05-2011, 02:25 AM
"Will very likely..."

"If Kobe has..."

Got any facts?

The 2 year "hole" in Jordan's career just means that Jordan was able to do more than Kobe and in less time. Jordan's career, much like his statistics, were more efficient.

Kobe already got 8 more playoff wins than Jordan.

If Kobe were to run the table this year (who knows) he will have 24 more wins.

If he were, somehow, to pull off the hat trick again NEXT year, then Kobe would not only have 7 rings and be 7-9 in the Finals, but he would also have
40 more playoff wins than Jordan.

That is actually 33% more playoff wins than Jordan--and that is only projecting one year. And considering that Kobe is on an aweomsely great team with Artest, Gasol, Odom and Bynum, among others, none of this is unrealistic in the slightest.

In fact the only realy threats to the Lakers are Phil retiring and the possible rise of the Heat.

Kobe could very possibly, VERY POSSIBLY, have 40% more playoff wins than Jordan within two years, but 33% more rings.

And these are just Kobe's "baseball" years right now. I mean the numbers situation could just get out of control. And this isn't too say that this stuff is a "fact" that will happen in the future, but just that it is a FACT that Jordan's career was marred by the weird baseball retirement thing.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 02:30 AM
man if you dont stop saying kobe and phil are saying jordan is better... he didnt say that he said they were the same player that the only advantage jordan had on kobe is that he had the biggest hand you would ever see.......also here fact for you jordans era didnt have the perimeter defenders that kobe faces. jordan never faced anything like that in there life. yeah he always beat the western team with the bigs yeah because jordan always had bigs to match up. but nobody matched up with jordan.

Prove today's perimeter defenders are better. You made a general statement and didn't offer any support at all to back it up. I'll call it a "fact" when you support it.

Kobe has patterned himself after Michael, and there are a lot of identical things there, Jackson told the Los Angeles Times, but its one thing to hope to be like him, its another thing to be like him.

We have to take Michael Jordan out of the equation. Stop comparing anyone to Michael Jordan. Its just not fair. He was remarkable. "

(Kobe) doesnt shoot the same percentage (.455) as Michael (.497). He has the same characteristics as Michael, but hes not the same player. It takes nothing away from him hes a great player in his own right.

Saad
04-05-2011, 02:37 AM
Look. Mamba and Anilyzer have been going back and forth and I think i should clear some things up between you too because of your misunderstandings.

Mamba, you are totally correct facts are facts and its true. Jordan beats Kobe in every statistical Area except 3 pt shooting I believe?

What Anilyzer is trying to say is that, look not everything is about stats, there are many other factors that go into this. Although i believe some of his posts were a little stretched and quite goofy such as his what if posts, I think the fact that he pointed out the whole Greatest Ever thing, was pretty valid. He like LeBron James (before he went to Miami) was hyped up as the Greatest ever. Although this isnt Jordan's fault, it just proves what a tremendous player he was, I think this influences a lot of people to blindly say HES THE BEST PLAYER NO QUESTION. Many of Jordan's MVPs were won because he had the best story, and the media regarded him so highly. Just like Rose today, who isnt undeserving of the MVP, there are better candidates.

If everything was about stats, then LeBron James would be regarded as the Best player in the NBA right now. But he's not, atleast not by other players anyways. If it was all about stats why isnt Big O regarded as the GOAT. Because its not only about stats. Atleast thats what I believe

Now you make some great points Mamba and I totally agree with you on a lot of posts. Zone defense has made it easier for Guards to drive, but then again the defense of this Era has evolved SO much its crazy how intricate it is. This has forced Kobe to develop his foot work and evolve his game much more, and why he probably has better moves than Jordan did. Jordan could do almost the same thing during throughout his career. THe Only adjustment he had to make was making his go to move his fadeaway jumper after he lost his athleticism. He was still so affective, and his move so potent, he had no need to practice new moves. But regardless, this shouldnt take away from his amazing statistical achievements.

Now that I've gotten that out of the way. I think that there shouldnt be a definitive GOAT. You know why? Who knows. Down the road there might be the Next Jordan+Kobe+LeBron. Freak athlete who can shoot, score, dribble, drive, pass, lock down defender. etc. So I think the title of the GOAT is overrated and shouldnt be taken into account as much as this thread has seemed to taken it into account

I believe that these two players were the GREATEST of their respective Eras. There is just too much difference. Too much change between the two to accurately compare them. Its just not possible. Its like comparing an Apple to an Orange. Yes they are both fruits, or SGs that could score and take over games like no other. But their tastes are from two different sides of the spectrum.

We are witnessing greatness, lets not ruin that by looking into the past

Kobe is the Best Player of his respective Era. As was Jordan.
/ thread.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 02:56 AM
Kobe already got 8 more playoff wins than Jordan.

If Kobe were to run the table this year (who knows) he will have 24 more wins.

If he were, somehow, to pull off the hat trick again NEXT year, then Kobe would not only have 7 rings and be 7-9 in the Finals, but he would also have
40 more playoff wins than Jordan.

That is actually 33% more playoff wins than Jordan--and that is only projecting one year. And considering that Kobe is on an aweomsely great team with Artest, Gasol, Odom and Bynum, among others, none of this is unrealistic in the slightest.

In fact the only realy threats to the Lakers are Phil retiring and the possible rise of the Heat.

Kobe could very possibly, VERY POSSIBLY, have 40% more playoff wins than Jordan within two years, but 33% more rings.

And these are just Kobe's "baseball" years right now. I mean the numbers situation could just get out of control. And this isn't too say that this stuff is a "fact" that will happen in the future, but just that it is a FACT that Jordan's career was marred by the weird baseball retirement thing.

lol why are you STILL trying to push this "baseball" thing? I get it, he missed two seasons of basketball. I get it now, and I got it a few days ago when you were repeating it from a few days before that lol. If totals are how you define the GOAT, I guess KAJ is your GOAT then? The man played 20 seasons, and has a scoring record that is still untouched.

Personally, I disagree with that. I'm looking at efficiency. Like I've already said, Jordan did MUCH more than Kobe and in less time.

When he calls it a career, Kobe will PROBABLY have more point scored than Jordan. But he will have done it with more shots and more games played. If i'm trying to decide my own GOAT, that's a big strike against Kobe in my books.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 03:10 AM
Look. Mamba and Anilyzer have been going back and forth and I think i should clear some things up between you too because of your misunderstandings.

Mamba, you are totally correct facts are facts and its true. Jordan beats Kobe in every statistical Area except 3 pt shooting I believe?

What Anilyzer is trying to say is that, look not everything is about stats, there are many other factors that go into this. Although i believe some of his posts were a little stretched and quite goofy such as his what if posts, I think the fact that he pointed out the whole Greatest Ever thing, was pretty valid. He like LeBron James (before he went to Miami) was hyped up as the Greatest ever. Although this isnt Jordan's fault, it just proves what a tremendous player he was, I think this influences a lot of people to blindly say HES THE BEST PLAYER NO QUESTION. Many of Jordan's MVPs were won because he had the best story, and the media regarded him so highly. Just like Rose today, who isnt undeserving of the MVP, there are better candidates.

If everything was about stats, then LeBron James would be regarded as the Best player in the NBA right now. But he's not, atleast not by other players anyways. If it was all about stats why isnt Big O regarded as the GOAT. Because its not only about stats. Atleast thats what I believe

Now you make some great points Mamba and I totally agree with you on a lot of posts. Zone defense has made it easier for Guards to drive, but then again the defense of this Era has evolved SO much its crazy how intricate it is. This has forced Kobe to develop his foot work and evolve his game much more, and why he probably has better moves than Jordan did. Jordan could do almost the same thing during throughout his career. THe Only adjustment he had to make was making his go to move his fadeaway jumper after he lost his athleticism. He was still so affective, and his move so potent, he had no need to practice new moves. But regardless, this shouldnt take away from his amazing statistical achievements.

Now that I've gotten that out of the way. I think that there shouldnt be a definitive GOAT. You know why? Who knows. Down the road there might be the Next Jordan+Kobe+LeBron. Freak athlete who can shoot, score, dribble, drive, pass, lock down defender. etc. So I think the title of the GOAT is overrated and shouldnt be taken into account as much as this thread has seemed to taken it into account

I believe that these two players were the GREATEST of their respective Eras. There is just too much difference. Too much change between the two to accurately compare them. Its just not possible. Its like comparing an Apple to an Orange. Yes they are both fruits, or SGs that could score and take over games like no other. But their tastes are from two different sides of the spectrum.

We are witnessing greatness, lets not ruin that by looking into the past

Kobe is the Best Player of his respective Era. As was Jordan.
/ thread.

I fully understand that stats aren't everything, that's why I've produced a number of quotes. Not only do stats give Jordan the huge edge, but the people who actually played and influenced the game believe the same. I can't wave my magic wand and put Kobe in Jorda's era, or vice versa. But if Phil is going to tell me that Jordan could average 45 in today's NBA, who am I to tell the zen master that he is wrong?

I disagree with most of your comments about Jordan's game, to be honest. I think you over simplify how much he worked on his game over the course of his career. He was used and abused vs the Bad Boys one season, and then swept them the next. You don't do this without making "adjustments". Not only that, but he became a MUCH better defender as his career went on when compared to when he came into the league...ultimatly earning the DPY honors. Lastly, he became a much more reliable shooter throughout his career, and extended his range.

Kobe had Jordan's game to model after. Jordan didn't. If you want an argument that goes outside stats, there it is.

But I agree, no GOAT is safe from the tests of time.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 03:17 AM
Jordan averaged 30 points or more eight times, while Bryant has accomplished that feat three times.

Jordan averaged over six rebounds a game nine times, while Bryant has done that three times.

Jordan averaged over five assists nine times, and Bryant has averaged over five assists eight times

Jordan averaged over two steals per game 10 times while Bryant only has done that once.

NBA Finals Most Valuable Player awards
Michael Jordan: 6 in 6 tries
Kobe Bryant: 2 in 7 tries

NBA Playoffs
50 point or higher games
Kobe: 1
MJ: 8

NBA Playoffs
40 point or higher games
Kobe: 11
MJ: 38

NBA Playoffs
30 point or higher games
Kobe: 78
MJ: 109

NBA Playoff runs under 50% shooting:
Kobe: 13 (every year)
MJ: 8

NBA Playoff runs over 50% shooting:
Kobe Bryant: 0 (never)
Michael Jordan: 5

NBA Playoff runs under 48% shooting:
Kobe Bryant: 12
Michael Jordan: 6

NBA Playoff runs over 48% shooting:
Kobe Bryant: 1
Michael Jordan: 7

NBA Playoff runs under 46% shooting:
Kobe Bryant: 9
Michael Jordan: 3

NBA Playoff runs under 44% shooting:
Kobe Bryant: 6
Michael Jordan: 2

NBA Playoff runs over 30ppg:
Kobe Bryant: 4
Michael Jordan: 12

NBA Playoff runs over 32ppg:
Kobe Bryant: 2
Michael Jordan: 8

NBA Playoff runs over 34ppg:
Kobe Bryant: 0 (never)
Michael Jordan: 7

NBA Finals averages for their careers:
Michael Jordan 33.6ppg 6.0reb 5.9ast 48.0%fg 36.8%3pt 
Kobe Bryant 25.3ppg 5.7reb 5.0ast 41.2%fg 31.3%3pt
Pau Gasol 17.3ppg 10.4reb 3.2ast 1.7blk 52.8%fg
Scottie Pippen 18.9ppg 8.3reb 5.9ast 40.9%fg 25.9%3pt
Shaq (as a Laker) 33.6ppg 14.1reb 3.0ast 2.4blk 60.2%fg
Kobe (with Shaq) 22.1ppg 5.2reb 4.6ast, 1.0blk 41.6%fg

Kobe has been out performed by teammates in 5 out of his 7 NBA Finals appearances, Michael Jordan was never out performed by a teammate. Michael Jordan never had a teammate average over 20.0ppg in any NBA Finals who shot a higher percentage than him, Kobe's had a teammate do this 4 times.

Saad
04-05-2011, 03:30 AM
I think you misunderstood. I wasnt trying to undermine Jordan's game at all. Im saying that the defense today has forced Kobe to evolve his game. Jordan had a hell of a work ethic just as Kobe does. The game just seemed so easy to Jordan because of the defense. Now this shouldnt be a knock on Jordan, just shows how great he actually was. As someone said before. Toughness shouldnt be mistaken for great defense. Look at the bulls. They are the number 1 defensive team in the league. None of their players have a nasty streak? Rose? Deng? Noah? Boozer? Bogans? All hard-nosed defenders in an amazing system run by Thibs.

And about Phil's comments and all those other quotes you posted. Phil is a grade A exaggerater. Common now 45 points? Do you realize how ridiculous that is..? LeBron James, Dwayne Wade both players that I believe are very much like Jordan, not exactly physically but in their play style. Why arent these players averaging 45? Jordan cant be THAT MUCH better than them? He is definately a remarkable player but 45 points? Common now. With the defense today, teams would figure out a way to guard Jordan, just as they have Kobe, just as they have, Lebron Wade, Etc.

Yeah you should probably believe Phil more than me, but we all know about his sarcasm.

Yeah Kobe has modeled his game around Jordan. Why shouldnt he. Shouldnt he try to emulate what he was watching while growing up? What generated so much success? Is that crime? Should he be any less of a player because he wants to be the best? I remember during the Utah v LA game they were talking about Favors and how he used Kobe as his inspiration to get into the NBA. I dont think it should be a knock on a player to try and emulate greatness.

And I still stand by my case that each player is great in their own Respective Eras. There is just no way. No opinions no date generators nothing that can prove who would do better in what era. Which is why we shouldnt bother with that. Just let Kobe be Kobe, and Jordan be Jordan. No need to compare. No need to discuss who is the GOAT, because thats just a relative term. And too uncertain because of what the Future holds.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 03:56 AM
I think you misunderstood. I wasnt trying to undermine Jordan's game at all. Im saying that the defense today has forced Kobe to evolve his game. Jordan had a hell of a work ethic just as Kobe does. The game just seemed so easy to Jordan because of the defense. Now this shouldnt be a knock on Jordan, just shows how great he actually was. As someone said before. Toughness shouldnt be mistaken for great defense. Look at the bulls. They are the number 1 defensive team in the league. None of their players have a nasty streak? Rose? Deng? Noah? Boozer? Bogans? All hard-nosed defenders in an amazing system run by Thibs.

And about Phil's comments and all those other quotes you posted. Phil is a grade A exaggerater. Common now 45 points? Do you realize how ridiculous that is..? LeBron James, Dwayne Wade both players that I believe are very much like Jordan, not exactly physically but in their play style. Why arent these players averaging 45? Jordan cant be THAT MUCH better than them? He is definately a remarkable player but 45 points? Common now. With the defense today, teams would figure out a way to guard Jordan, just as they have Kobe, just as they have, Lebron Wade, Etc.

Yeah you should probably believe Phil more than me, but we all know about his sarcasm.

Yeah Kobe has modeled his game around Jordan. Why shouldnt he. Shouldnt he try to emulate what he was watching while growing up? What generated so much success? Is that crime? Should he be any less of a player because he wants to be the best? I remember during the Utah v LA game they were talking about Favors and how he used Kobe as his inspiration to get into the NBA. I dont think it should be a knock on a player to try and emulate greatness.

And I still stand by my case that each player is great in their own Respective Eras. There is just no way. No opinions no date generators nothing that can prove who would do better in what era. Which is why we shouldnt bother with that. Just let Kobe be Kobe, and Jordan be Jordan. No need to compare. No need to discuss who is the GOAT, because thats just a relative term. And too uncertain because of what the Future holds.

I find a hard time believing in the effects of zone defense when most teams don't really run it with any kind of consistency. Jordan faced handchecking, no restricted area under the basket, no defensive three-in-the-key violation. All of these would prevent perimeter players from getting to the basket. In contrast, i've already provided a quote from Stu Jackson where he said that the new rule changes opened the game up for perimeter players and allowed them to get better shots. If Tex Winter is going to say that players today can get to the basket easier with respect to the rule changes, I'm going to believe him. Jordan's game was jumpshots and drives to the basket. Nothing about what I've said tells me that Jordan would have a harder time against today's NBA defenses.

Is Scottie Pippen a grade A exaggerator as well? Craig Hodges? Rick Barry? Joe Dumars? Dominique Wilkins? Larry Brown? Tim Grover, who has trained both Kobe and Jordan, responded to a question about who would win 1 vs 1 by saying " "Oh, Michael. No question. From a physical and mental standpoint, he's the best I've ever seen. If he were playing now, with the way the refs call everything, and with all the padding these guys wear, he'd average 40 or 50 a night if he wanted." Sure...Phil exaggerates...and even if you want to try and say that ALL of these guys exaggerate a little bit to, they all share a common belief: Jordan would perform better in today's NBA. And that is my point.

I never said that Kobe SHOULDN'T have modeled his game after Jordan. Read my words carefully. In fact, I think it's dumb for any perimeter player to at least not take a few things that Jordan did well and apply them. You kind of missed my point there. I'm not hating on the fact that Kobe modeled his game after Jordan, I'm pointing out that Kobe had the luxery of having Jordan's game to model after. If we are trying to make arguments outside of just stats, this HAS to be considered. It is much easier for Kobe to model his game after Jordan than it was for Jordan to provide a game that future players will model theirs after.

Bruno
04-05-2011, 03:59 AM
Who did Jordan model his game off of? Did he come up with every trick in his bag? MJ was able to combine all the most lethal arsenal from his predecessors and turn it into his own. Bryant is just following suit, it's the natural order.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 04:02 AM
Who did Jordan model his game off of? Did he come up with every trick in his bag? MJ was able to combine all the most lethal arsenal from his predecessors and turn it into his own. Bryant is just following suit, it's the natural order.

lol the fact that you are starting off with the question "who did jordan model his game off of?" fits EXACTLY into the point i'm trying to make.

Sure he probably drew inspirations from other players..but there wasn't 1 player that came before him that contained a skillset that resembled Jordan's as closely as Kobe's resembles Jordans.

Like I said above...I have no problem at all with Kobe modeling his game off of Jordan. ESPECIALLY considering he plays for a team that runs the triangle.

Just pointing out that MJ made it a little easier for Kobe.

In a thread where MJ being photographed smoking a cigar has been used as a point against him, I'd find it difficult to understand if anyone is going to argue that this isn't a valid point.

mfb_lt1birdman
04-05-2011, 08:33 AM
I'm not going to claim that Kobe is greater or better than MJ but in response to the defenses, can you honestly tell me with a straight face that going up against Ehlo, Starks, Majerle, Payton, Hornacek, Russel, is anywhere near the competition of say prime Prince, Artest, Battier, Tony Allen, Bowen, Marion, Posey, and all the other long athletic 2's and 3's in the game today? With exception to the Glove all these guys are a joke. They were smaller, weaker, and slower than Jordan.

Jordan was able to just abuse these smaller players in the post and could just elevate right over them on the perimeter. No doubt he would still get his today, but it would definitely not be as easy. Today's longer defenders have turned Kobe into the player he is in being able to make just ridiculous shots on a consistent basis. Everyone who watches Kobe knows what he does on the rare occasion when he has a mismatch off a switch and gets single coverage. It's no contest. I feel it was this way for MJ the majority of his career.

And to make it even easier for him, he would go against probably the best perimeter defender in history during practice. Going from Pippen to these other scrubs on a nightly basis must have been a cakewalk.

Storch
04-05-2011, 11:32 AM
I hate to say it but I'm on whitemamba33's side on this one.

AFG-NYC
04-05-2011, 01:02 PM
Prove today's perimeter defenders are better. You made a general statement and didn't offer any support at all to back it up. I'll call it a "fact" when you support it.

Kobe has patterned himself after Michael, and there are a lot of identical things there, Jackson told the Los Angeles Times, but its one thing to hope to be like him, its another thing to be like him.

We have to take Michael Jordan out of the equation. Stop comparing anyone to Michael Jordan. Its just not fair. He was remarkable. "

(Kobe) doesnt shoot the same percentage (.455) as Michael (.497). He has the same characteristics as Michael, but hes not the same player. It takes nothing away from him hes a great player in his own right.

Today's parimeter players are quicker and more athletic than they were back in the 80s and 90s. The players of those days were more physical but Jordan could would easily blow by them. Guys like Charles Smith (6' 10" slow center in todays game), Anthony Mason, Jamal Mashburn were starting at the three. Name me the the 2 guards that could keep up with Jordan or score points to tired him out on defense. I mean the last 2 years Chicago came out to the Finals the Jazz had Jeff Hornasak at the 2 and bryan russel at the 3. Now compare that to what kobe had to face last year. Ray allen, Paul Pierce, the defensive specialist Tony allen.

Storch
04-05-2011, 01:23 PM
Today's parimeter players are quicker and more athletic than they were back in the 80s and 90s. The players of those days were more physical but Jordan could would easily blow by them. Guys like Charles Smith (6' 10" slow center in todays game), Anthony Mason, Jamal Mashburn were starting at the three. Name me the the 2 guards that could keep up with Jordan or score points to tired him out on defense. I mean the last 2 years Chicago came out to the Finals the Jazz had Jeff Hornasak at the 2 and bryan russel at the 3. Now compare that to what kobe had to face last year. Ray allen, Paul Pierce, the defensive specialist Tony allen.

Even if the argument that defense has evolved since Jordan's era is plausible, the offense has evolved as well.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 01:30 PM
Today's parimeter players are quicker and more athletic than they were back in the 80s and 90s. The players of those days were more physical but Jordan could would easily blow by them. Guys like Charles Smith (6' 10" slow center in todays game), Anthony Mason, Jamal Mashburn were starting at the three. Name me the the 2 guards that could keep up with Jordan or score points to tired him out on defense. I mean the last 2 years Chicago came out to the Finals the Jazz had Jeff Hornasak at the 2 and bryan russel at the 3. Now compare that to what kobe had to face last year. Ray allen, Paul Pierce, the defensive specialist Tony allen.

If you are going to reference individual seasons and compare them, so will I. Gary Payton, one of the best defenders of all time, gaurded Michael when the Bulls faced the Sonics in the Finals. Who gaurded Kobe when they faced the Magic in the Finals? Hedo? Courney Lee? It makes no sense to point out individual seasons...and you get that now.

Regardless, I asked for proof that perimeter players are better in today's game than in Jordan's era. If someone has some numbers or something, I'd love to see them. But I don't really need anybody's personal opinion.

Also, I agree with Storch above. You can't give credit to a decade's worth of defensive evolution and ignore the fact that the same is true for the offensive side as well. Combine that with rule changes that were designed to make it easier for offensive players to get to the basket...

Topballs
04-05-2011, 03:41 PM
Whitemama, you have made your same exact point well over 15 times in this thread, and a lot of them in a disrespectful way. No one is arguing that Kobe has better stats than Jordan. Anyone can go look up his career statistics, accomplishments, and accolades. This thread is getting to be very long, but I dont think anyone has even DISPUTED the stats, but rather a couple have merely shown that some of the advanced stats are closer between the two than simply comparing 30ppg to 25ppg. 50% fg to 45% fg. WE GET IT. You have repeatedly said that you are going to post your last comments and then be done with it, yet you continue to keep repeating yourself in an unpleasant tone.

As i have said, the whole point of this thread was to look at the players, not from a statistical standpoint, but rather a judgment of watching their actual games night in-night out. You keep indicating that you are a man of stats, and keep enticing people to prove otherwise with something statistical, yet you are validating every one of your own paragraphs by claiming that quotes are REAL EVIDENCE to that. Then you even take it step further by saying that Phils quote on MJ averaging 45 PPG is LITERAL... If you are really going to use quotes from Pippen, Stu, and Phil, then look up other quotes from players that have actually played with both players night in-night out. Many of these players have been quoted saying that Kobe, from a pure basketball standpoint, is just as good as MJ, and have also said that he may very well retire as a better player. Does that make their claims valid? Absolutely not. What it proves is that quotes are subjective and makes any argument look weaker if the person using them is claiming that to be real valid evidence. And for the sake of quotes, lets analyze what Pippen just recently came out and said, That Kobe is already a top 5 basketball player of ALL-TIME. Since you keep taking about the Zen master, do you think that Phils opinion about Jordan is greater than Pippens? The man who endured the blood sweat and tears on the court with Jordan through 6 championships? If one of the best ever like Pippen, who has played with Kobe, can acknowledge that already, and Kobe is 32 and could be on his way to his 6th ring this year, how on earth can anyone say with conviction that there is NO WAY kobe will retire as a better player? (By the way please dont actually answer that as I was just making a point) Of coarse RIGHT NOW Jordan is clear winner in this argument. Jordan will have been tearing it up for years after he turned 32. It is disrespectful to the greatest ever, and practically sac-religious to go against MJ. The man was better than great. There will definitely be no change to the commonly accepted public opinion until after Kobe has retired, and then we'll see how much more credit Kobe can get. He'll most likely still come up short unless he can continue to win rings.

Ultimately, Jordan makes 10 out of 20, compared to Kobes 9.5 out of 20. And anyone that watches Kobe on a nightly basis will see him take shots that have almost no chance of going in, simply because it seems at times that he has practically already decided that he is going to shoot the ball before the play has unfolded, which does not help his argument, and certainly hurts his efficiency. One aspect that I want to mention is the foul calls. Although there is obviously no stat, or real evidence to support it, Jordan got extra treatment from the officials throughout his career, and most people WILL agree with that, which needless to say does wonders on a stat sheet, since a foul that perhaps should not have been called, changes the stats from a missed FG, to an opportunity at 2 more points without hurting your %. It is also commonly known that D-wade gets this similar treatment as a player, with the exception of some disagreeing, obviously, and in addition to most Heat fans disagreeing as well. Kobe, on the contrary, has never received that kind of love form the officials, nor has he been awarded credit that he deserves because of the fact that he has been labeled as the 'bad guy' his whole career (public image and media hype carry the status and opinion of players drastically) Lebron is a good example of how public image can magnify people's opinions about a player. These things obviously dont go on a stat sheet, but are certainly real aspects of profession basketball.

The last point I want to make is the respective eras. Jordans era was indeed very physical, but the talent and skill set of the average player in the nba in todays league is overwhelming. We are not talking stats, we are talking god given talent. Players in today's league ARE bigger, stronger, more athletic, and better basketball players. Obviously we are not singling out individuals, but the respective leagues as a whole. It's no question. Defenses have become more complex and efficient, and the amount of talent and competition is at an all time high, which is a trend that will continue with every generation, in every sport there is. And to try to say that a player in todays league should not be given as much credit because they can learn from past players is a very unfair aspect of comparison, and heavily diminishes someone's credibility regarding their input of the matter. Needless to say that Kobe is a fundamental master, and to say that he has modeled his game only after jordan is laughable, considering you can clearly see similar tendencies in his game from West, Oscar, Dominque, Julius, Hakeem, and the list goes on. This thread has lost the point of what it means to argue, and has turned into repetitious circle.

The important thing that Kobe has earned is the respect of being the greatest player in the world, not only by fans, but more importantly by the opposing players that he torches on a nightly basis, in a generation of better basketball players. Does it mean that he is/could be a better player than Jordan? Not necessarily, and definitely not right now. It depends on the criteria you use to judge these players, weather its pure skill/diffuclty of shots, or a mix of that, combined with career stats/accomplishments. But longevity, and being able to sustain your skill as your body gets older, is something that deserves a great amount of respect, and will work in Kobes favor if he can continue to dominate.

Anilyzer
04-05-2011, 06:55 PM
lol the fact that you are starting off with the question "who did jordan model his game off of?" fits EXACTLY into the point i'm trying to make.

Sure he probably drew inspirations from other players..but there wasn't 1 player that came before him that contained a skillset that resembled Jordan's as closely as Kobe's resembles Jordans.

Like I said above...I have no problem at all with Kobe modeling his game off of Jordan. ESPECIALLY considering he plays for a team that runs the triangle.



*jeez*

so what, are you trying to argue now that Jordan was some kind of uncreated god who willed himself into being through a lotus flower, and sprung into existence with the ultimate set of NBA skills ever?

It's patently obvious that Jordan was incredibly influenced by any number of NBA players--he obviously always had a lot of Dr J in his game, and that would probably be the guy who on his way up, they were like "this guy is the next Dr J" or whatever.

And btw, I've pointed this out but it bears repeating... if we're talking about SKILLSETS then it is clearly obvious that Kobe's skillset has evolved beyond where Jordan's got to. Saad also mentioned this. Kobe has evolved because defenses devised by Sloan, Popovich and others have evolved precisely to stop Kobe.

And in the same way that suddenly you can see lots of college players dunking "Blake Griffin" style, there are many defenders who improved their game based on what Artest and Bowen and even Rodman showed the league.

Even a young rookie like Devin Ebanks plays such strong defense, such fundamentally perfect defense and is so focused on defense, along with the freakish athleticism and length... I mean Ebanks doesn't even get minutes now on the Lakers, and I'm not saying he's the best defender in the league. But if you sent guys like that back in time with a time machine they would be wreaking havoc on the backcourts of the league. Of course the refs might just call a bunch of touch fouls on them if they disrupted Jordan too much... but *sheeeesh*. There were a lot of 6'3" shooting guards that weren't great defenders back then--the game has evolved.

Anilyzer
04-05-2011, 07:02 PM
and by the way, Phil is probably just trying to motivate Kobe. But that's not saying that if Phil says in the future that Kobe was the GOAT, whether that would make it true, because, again, Phil isn't the GOAT-maker... or is he...?

Anilyzer
04-05-2011, 07:05 PM
Whitemama, you have made your same exact point well over 15 times in this thread, and a lot of them in a disrespectful way. No one is arguing that Kobe has better stats than Jordan. Anyone can go look up his career statistics, accomplishments, and accolades. This thread is getting to be very long, but I dont think anyone has even DISPUTED the stats, but rather a couple have merely shown that some of the advanced stats are closer between the two than simply comparing 30ppg to 25ppg. 50% fg to 45% fg. WE GET IT. You have repeatedly said that you are going to post your last comments and then be done with it, yet you continue to keep repeating yourself in an unpleasant tone.

As i have said, the whole point of this thread was to look at the players, not from a statistical standpoint, but rather a judgment of watching their actual games night in-night out. You keep indicating that you are a man of stats, and keep enticing people to prove otherwise with something statistical, yet you are validating every one of your own paragraphs by claiming that quotes are REAL EVIDENCE to that. Then you even take it step further by saying that Phils quote on MJ averaging 45 PPG is LITERAL... If you are really going to use quotes from Pippen, Stu, and Phil, then look up other quotes from players that have actually played with both players night in-night out. Many of these players have been quoted saying that Kobe, from a pure basketball standpoint, is just as good as MJ, and have also said that he may very well retire as a better player. Does that make their claims valid? Absolutely not. What it proves is that quotes are subjective and makes any argument look weaker if the person using them is claiming that to be real valid evidence. And for the sake of quotes, lets analyze what Pippen just recently came out and said, That Kobe is already a top 5 basketball player of ALL-TIME. Since you keep taking about the Zen master, do you think that Phils opinion about Jordan is greater than Pippens? The man who endured the blood sweat and tears on the court with Jordan through 6 championships? If one of the best ever like Pippen, who has played with Kobe, can acknowledge that already, and Kobe is 32 and could be on his way to his 6th ring this year, how on earth can anyone say with conviction that there is NO WAY kobe will retire as a better player? (By the way please dont actually answer that as I was just making a point) Of coarse RIGHT NOW Jordan is clear winner in this argument. Jordan will have been tearing it up for years after he turned 32. It is disrespectful to the greatest ever, and practically sac-religious to go against MJ. The man was better than great. There will definitely be no change to the commonly accepted public opinion until after Kobe has retired, and then we'll see how much more credit Kobe can get. He'll most likely still come up short unless he can continue to win rings.

Ultimately, Jordan makes 10 out of 20, compared to Kobes 9.5 out of 20. And anyone that watches Kobe on a nightly basis will see him take shots that have almost no chance of going in, simply because it seems at times that he has practically already decided that he is going to shoot the ball before the play has unfolded, which does not help his argument, and certainly hurts his efficiency. One aspect that I want to mention is the foul calls. Although there is obviously no stat, or real evidence to support it, Jordan got extra treatment from the officials throughout his career, and most people WILL agree with that, which needless to say does wonders on a stat sheet, since a foul that perhaps should not have been called, changes the stats from a missed FG, to an opportunity at 2 more points without hurting your %. It is also commonly known that D-wade gets this similar treatment as a player, with the exception of some disagreeing, obviously, and in addition to most Heat fans disagreeing as well. Kobe, on the contrary, has never received that kind of love form the officials, nor has he been awarded credit that he deserves because of the fact that he has been labeled as the 'bad guy' his whole career (public image and media hype carry the status and opinion of players drastically) Lebron is a good example of how public image can magnify people's opinions about a player. These things obviously dont go on a stat sheet, but are certainly real aspects of profession basketball.

The last point I want to make is the respective eras. Jordans era was indeed very physical, but the talent and skill set of the average player in the nba in todays league is overwhelming. We are not talking stats, we are talking god given talent. Players in today's league ARE bigger, stronger, more athletic, and better basketball players. Obviously we are not singling out individuals, but the respective leagues as a whole. It's no question. Defenses have become more complex and efficient, and the amount of talent and competition is at an all time high, which is a trend that will continue with every generation, in every sport there is. And to try to say that a player in todays league should not be given as much credit because they can learn from past players is a very unfair aspect of comparison, and heavily diminishes someone's credibility regarding their input of the matter. Needless to say that Kobe is a fundamental master, and to say that he has modeled his game only after jordan is laughable, considering you can clearly see similar tendencies in his game from West, Oscar, Dominque, Julius, Hakeem, and the list goes on. This thread has lost the point of what it means to argue, and has turned into repetitious circle.

The important thing that Kobe has earned is the respect of being the greatest player in the world, not only by fans, but more importantly by the opposing players that he torches on a nightly basis, in a generation of better basketball players. Does it mean that he is/could be a better player than Jordan? Not necessarily, and definitely not right now. It depends on the criteria you use to judge these players, weather its pure skill/diffuclty of shots, or a mix of that, combined with career stats/accomplishments. But longevity, and being able to sustain your skill as your body gets older, is something that deserves a great amount of respect, and will work in Kobes favor if he can continue to dominate.

^^ This

Anilyzer
04-05-2011, 07:09 PM
Even if the argument that defense has evolved since Jordan's era is plausible, the offense has evolved as well.

yes exactly. And Kobe has evolved more than anybody... Kobe is the absolute top of this era... Kobe LEADS the evolutionary process

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 07:17 PM
Whitemama, you have made your same exact point well over 15 times in this thread, and a lot of them in a disrespectful way. No one is arguing that Kobe has better stats than Jordan. Anyone can go look up his career statistics, accomplishments, and accolades. This thread is getting to be very long, but I dont think anyone has even DISPUTED the stats, but rather a couple have merely shown that some of the advanced stats are closer between the two than simply comparing 30ppg to 25ppg. 50% fg to 45% fg. WE GET IT. You have repeatedly said that you are going to post your last comments and then be done with it, yet you continue to keep repeating yourself in an unpleasant tone.

As i have said, the whole point of this thread was to look at the players, not from a statistical standpoint, but rather a judgment of watching their actual games night in-night out. You keep indicating that you are a man of stats, and keep enticing people to prove otherwise with something statistical, yet you are validating every one of your own paragraphs by claiming that quotes are REAL EVIDENCE to that. Then you even take it step further by saying that Phils quote on MJ averaging 45 PPG is LITERAL... If you are really going to use quotes from Pippen, Stu, and Phil, then look up other quotes from players that have actually played with both players night in-night out. Many of these players have been quoted saying that Kobe, from a pure basketball standpoint, is just as good as MJ, and have also said that he may very well retire as a better player. Does that make their claims valid? Absolutely not. What it proves is that quotes are subjective and makes any argument look weaker if the person using them is claiming that to be real valid evidence. And for the sake of quotes, lets analyze what Pippen just recently came out and said, That Kobe is already a top 5 basketball player of ALL-TIME. Since you keep taking about the Zen master, do you think that Phils opinion about Jordan is greater than Pippens? The man who endured the blood sweat and tears on the court with Jordan through 6 championships? If one of the best ever like Pippen, who has played with Kobe, can acknowledge that already, and Kobe is 32 and could be on his way to his 6th ring this year, how on earth can anyone say with conviction that there is NO WAY kobe will retire as a better player? (By the way please dont actually answer that as I was just making a point) Of coarse RIGHT NOW Jordan is clear winner in this argument. Jordan will have been tearing it up for years after he turned 32. It is disrespectful to the greatest ever, and practically sac-religious to go against MJ. The man was better than great. There will definitely be no change to the commonly accepted public opinion until after Kobe has retired, and then we'll see how much more credit Kobe can get. He'll most likely still come up short unless he can continue to win rings.

Ultimately, Jordan makes 10 out of 20, compared to Kobes 9.5 out of 20. And anyone that watches Kobe on a nightly basis will see him take shots that have almost no chance of going in, simply because it seems at times that he has practically already decided that he is going to shoot the ball before the play has unfolded, which does not help his argument, and certainly hurts his efficiency. One aspect that I want to mention is the foul calls. Although there is obviously no stat, or real evidence to support it, Jordan got extra treatment from the officials throughout his career, and most people WILL agree with that, which needless to say does wonders on a stat sheet, since a foul that perhaps should not have been called, changes the stats from a missed FG, to an opportunity at 2 more points without hurting your %. It is also commonly known that D-wade gets this similar treatment as a player, with the exception of some disagreeing, obviously, and in addition to most Heat fans disagreeing as well. Kobe, on the contrary, has never received that kind of love form the officials, nor has he been awarded credit that he deserves because of the fact that he has been labeled as the 'bad guy' his whole career (public image and media hype carry the status and opinion of players drastically) Lebron is a good example of how public image can magnify people's opinions about a player. These things obviously dont go on a stat sheet, but are certainly real aspects of profession basketball.

The last point I want to make is the respective eras. Jordans era was indeed very physical, but the talent and skill set of the average player in the nba in todays league is overwhelming. We are not talking stats, we are talking god given talent. Players in today's league ARE bigger, stronger, more athletic, and better basketball players. Obviously we are not singling out individuals, but the respective leagues as a whole. It's no question. Defenses have become more complex and efficient, and the amount of talent and competition is at an all time high, which is a trend that will continue with every generation, in every sport there is. And to try to say that a player in todays league should not be given as much credit because they can learn from past players is a very unfair aspect of comparison, and heavily diminishes someone's credibility regarding their input of the matter. Needless to say that Kobe is a fundamental master, and to say that he has modeled his game only after jordan is laughable, considering you can clearly see similar tendencies in his game from West, Oscar, Dominque, Julius, Hakeem, and the list goes on. This thread has lost the point of what it means to argue, and has turned into repetitious circle.

The important thing that Kobe has earned is the respect of being the greatest player in the world, not only by fans, but more importantly by the opposing players that he torches on a nightly basis, in a generation of better basketball players. Does it mean that he is/could be a better player than Jordan? Not necessarily, and definitely not right now. It depends on the criteria you use to judge these players, weather its pure skill/diffuclty of shots, or a mix of that, combined with career stats/accomplishments. But longevity, and being able to sustain your skill as your body gets older, is something that deserves a great amount of respect, and will work in Kobes favor if he can continue to dominate.

I put the only meaningful thing you said in bold. Everything i've said so far was to prove that Jordan is the GOAT right now and that Kobe isn't. So the fact you are agreeing with me is good to hear.

As far as the repetition...you are showing your bias by only calling me out. Go count how many times "anlizer" has brought up that Jordan played baseball. If you are going to make a point, at least be unbiased about it. But then again, bias is what has brought most of you here in the first place. If you guys ffind what I say to be rude or offensive, than don't come on here day after day and reply to me.

And I don't get your Scottie Pippen reference at all. You are saying that he said Kobe is well on his way to a 6th ring, but I don't see what that has to do with Kobe being a better basketball player. I absolutly value Phil's opinion over Scottie's. Phil has coached both of them and knows them inside and out. Scottie never even played on Bryant's team. There is no way that Scottie knos more about Kobe than Phil does. Regardless..i'm not going to base my current opinion on who the GOAT is on what Kobe MIGHT do in the future. I'm not going to base it on an unproven belief that Kobe would have done better than Michael in Michael's era. This discussion might need to be revisited in 5 years or so..but as of right...there is just no question.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 07:20 PM
and by the way, Phil is probably just trying to motivate Kobe. But that's not saying that if Phil says in the future that Kobe was the GOAT, whether that would make it true, because, again, Phil isn't the GOAT-maker... or is he...?

Do you really think I'm going to doubt Phil jackson because you are telling me I should?

Good luck with that.

There is no "GOAT-maker"...these are just supporting arguments. I've already given the stats, and you want to argue outside stats. So I've done that. I've given the opinions of people who have been around both guys.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 07:21 PM
*jeez*

so what, are you trying to argue now that Jordan was some kind of uncreated god who willed himself into being through a lotus flower, and sprung into existence with the ultimate set of NBA skills ever?

It's patently obvious that Jordan was incredibly influenced by any number of NBA players--he obviously always had a lot of Dr J in his game, and that would probably be the guy who on his way up, they were like "this guy is the next Dr J" or whatever.

And btw, I've pointed this out but it bears repeating... if we're talking about SKILLSETS then it is clearly obvious that Kobe's skillset has evolved beyond where Jordan's got to. Saad also mentioned this. Kobe has evolved because defenses devised by Sloan, Popovich and others have evolved precisely to stop Kobe.

And in the same way that suddenly you can see lots of college players dunking "Blake Griffin" style, there are many defenders who improved their game based on what Artest and Bowen and even Rodman showed the league.

Even a young rookie like Devin Ebanks plays such strong defense, such fundamentally perfect defense and is so focused on defense, along with the freakish athleticism and length... I mean Ebanks doesn't even get minutes now on the Lakers, and I'm not saying he's the best defender in the league. But if you sent guys like that back in time with a time machine they would be wreaking havoc on the backcourts of the league. Of course the refs might just call a bunch of touch fouls on them if they disrupted Jordan too much... but *sheeeesh*. There were a lot of 6'3" shooting guards that weren't great defenders back then--the game has evolved.

I disagree with pretty much everything you've said. And because nothing you said was actually based on fact, your opinion is no greater or worse than mine.

Storch
04-05-2011, 07:57 PM
This thread, like many other jordan vs. kobe comparison threads has reached its' tipping point imo. Neither side is willing to back down and it's starting to get personal... You guys should try to cool down. Jordan and Kobe are both great players, arguably the best in each respective era and it's okay to leave it at that.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 08:03 PM
Meh...I'm arguing against Kobe Bryant in a Lakers thread...I never expected to change everyones mind. At this point I just keep coming back because some of the points crack me up. When the playoffs come I'll be cheering on Kobe just like everyone else.

CLASSOF72
04-05-2011, 08:06 PM
Kobe vs Jordan threads are vein and unrealistic. Juss saying. I agree thaty Kobe has superior basketball skills and MJ the superior marketing and media and probably mob backing, but anyway.

CLASSOF72
04-05-2011, 08:08 PM
Meh...I'm arguing against Kobe Bryant in a Lakers thread...I never expected to change everyones mind. At this point I just keep coming back because some of the points crack me up. When the playoffs come I'll be cheering on Kobe just like everyone else.

:clap:And the true motive is finaly revealed!
I already knew whitemamba33 was a Kobe hater though.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 08:21 PM
:clap:And the true motive is finaly revealed!
I already knew whitemamba33 was a Kobe hater though.

Huh? I don't get it.

I'm just not biased. I believe 100% Kobe is the best player in the game, and the best of the last decade. That doesn't mean that I need to always take his side in every argument, especially when the facts just aren't there.

I have no idea who you are....sorry.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 08:22 PM
Kobe vs Jordan threads are vein and unrealistic. Juss saying. I agree thaty Kobe has superior basketball skills and MJ the superior marketing and media and probably mob backing, but anyway.

Classy.

I'll side with Phil.

CLASSOF72
04-05-2011, 08:28 PM
Huh? I don't get it.

I'm just not biased. I believe 100% Kobe is the best player in the game, and the best of the last decade. That doesn't mean that I need to always take his side in every argument, especially when the facts just aren't there.

I have no idea who you are....sorry.
What facts?
I've taken advanced statistics classes and got the A and think your citations are week at the level you present them given the fact that there are to many variables that go unconcidered(ie rules of the game, available compition, adjustment by defenses to 2G sizes and skill sets ext). I'm glad you admit who the best player is cause it's true and as far as your facts go you'd do better in this sort of comparison to just simply state your opinion. It would give you more credibility.

CLASSOF72
04-05-2011, 08:35 PM
Classy.

I'll side with Phil.
So, side with Phil then. And did you provide a quote where PJ declares MJ as the GOAT? Has PJ said MJ was a better player than Kobe? Has PJ gone on record with this? Cause Kobe aint even done yet and I haven't heard PJ say MJ was definatively better than Bryant.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 08:37 PM
What facts?
I've taken advanced statistics classes and got the A and think your citations are week at the level you present them given the fact that there are to many variables that go unconcidered(ie rules of the game, available compition, adjustment by defenses to 2G sizes and skill sets ext). I'm glad you admit who the best player is cause it's true and as far as your facts go you'd do better in this sort of comparison to just simply state your opinion. It would give you more credibility.

We have spent the last week considering the variables. If you have something to add that hasn't been covered, then that is great. Otherwise, why are you here?

Am I really supposed to care about how you determine my credibility when you have zero credibility in my eyes? Good luck with that. The fact that you critisize my facts when the other side has given cigar smoking and gambling as arguments only makes me seriously doubt those "A's" of yours lol.

You've done nothing to add to this discussion.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 08:40 PM
So, side with Phil then. And did you provide a quote where PJ declares MJ as the GOAT? Has PJ said MJ was a better player than Kobe? Has PJ gone on record with this? Cause Kobe aint even done yet and I haven't heard PJ say MJ was definatively better than Bryant.

I've posted tons of quotes. It is my interpretation of such quotes that Phil believes Jordan is better. You are free to your own interpretation..but as I've said, i'm siding with Phil.

I'm also siding with Phil when he says that Jordan would drop 45 today. I'm also siding with all the other people who said the same.

Do as you wish, couldn't care less.

CLASSOF72
04-05-2011, 08:48 PM
I've posted tons of quotes. It is my interpretation of such quotes that Phil believes Jordan is better. You are free to your own interpretation..but as I've said, i'm siding with Phil.

I'm also siding with Phil when he says that Jordan would drop 45 today. I'm also siding with all the other people who said the same.

Do as you wish, couldn't care less.

Now your talking - so no facts just a subjective, interpretive, assumsion.

CLASSOF72
04-05-2011, 08:53 PM
We have spent the last week considering the variables. If you have something to add that hasn't been covered, then that is great. Otherwise, why are you here?

Am I really supposed to care about how you determine my credibility when you have zero credibility in my eyes? Good luck with that. The fact that you critisize my facts when the other side has given cigar smoking and gambling as arguments only makes me seriously doubt those "A's" of yours lol.

You've done nothing to add to this discussion.

Again a subjective interperative analysis of the available data. Means dick to me. So really it's just your opinion and that's all. So why argue with Others opinions? This is not a black and white issue it's a matter of opinion regardless of what so called facts you want to present in the form of stats. Now an expert in the field ie PJ is a good source of reference, but the the guy you cite PJ has not said he believes MJ is the GOAT nor has he said Kobe isn't.

whitemamba33
04-05-2011, 08:59 PM
Uh, what? I've read every one of your overly repetitive posts since this thread began. Should I go back and count how many times you said "I'll side with Phil" ,because you know your so called facts can so easily be discredited?

Stats + Awards + Achievements + Peer Opinion is enough for me.

Nothing that has been said about Kobe is free from being discredited. You show your bias by applying your arguments to only one side. Should I be surprised?

CLASSOF72
04-05-2011, 09:12 PM
I don't care what is good enough for YOU.

When you have something to add..let me know. So far you have ZERO Kobe arguments and counting lol.

My point isn't to argue on Bryants behalf nor to present the facts, but to point out the holes in your arguement. This is a vein discussion that yours or anyone elses statistical crap is not going to change. This is apples and oranges and all of your facts aren't going to change that or prove anything. Juss say you like MJ's sack more than Kobe's . Who cares?

CLASSOF72
04-05-2011, 09:18 PM
Stats + Awards + Achievements + Peer Opinion is enough for me.

Nothing that has been said about Kobe is free from being discredited. You show your bias by applying your arguments to only one side. Should I be surprised?
Right this is all speculation at best stats from one erra and a different team shouldn't be compared to another. I already spoke on this and you favorably responded to my post. I have no problem saying I favor Kobe because he's a Lakers player and not a Bulls player. What more do you want? I just don't buy the whole GOAT talk.

Anilyzer
04-05-2011, 09:21 PM
We have spent the last week considering the variables. If you have something to add that hasn't been covered, then that is great. Otherwise, why are you here?

Am I really supposed to care about how you determine my credibility when you have zero credibility in my eyes? Good luck with that. The fact that you critisize my facts when the other side has given cigar smoking and gambling as arguments only makes me seriously doubt those "A's" of yours lol.

Stats are ways of quantifying what the relative performance of particular players against the teams and players they were competing against.

Accounting for the new breed of defensive specialists, as well as the evolution of defenses AS WELL AS the rule changes which allow teams to freely transition in and out of zones as much as they like... it is 100% fair game to say that this is something we should account for in our interpretation of the statistics.

CLASSOF72
04-05-2011, 09:25 PM
you don't seem to even be listening to what Classof72 is saying... you're just getting all cranky about it.

Stats are ways of quantifying what the relative performance of particular players against the teams and players they were competing against.Accounting for the new breed of defensive specialists, as well as the evolution of defenses AS WELL AS the rule changes which allow teams to freely transition in and out of zones as much as they like... it is 100% fair game to say that this is something we should account for in our interpretation of the statistics.

This is correct.