PDA

View Full Version : Miami Herald: Rose as MVP dont add up



Pages : [1] 2 3

MagicBucsSox
03-28-2011, 04:38 PM
Statistically speaking, Russell Westbrook may be every bit the equal of Derrick Rose. The Bulls' offense is statistically mediocre; Rose is that offense's best player. The Bulls' defense is best in the league; Rose might be that defense's least important piece. But throw all the ingredients together in the Winning Pot, make a stew with a flavor that surprises us and you, too, can taste like MVP. Rose benefits from the greatness of his teammates, but Westbrook is harmed by the greatness of his more famous one (Kevin Durant). Would Westbrook be MVP if he simply had Chicago's defense? Would he be a bigger scorer than Rose if he didn't have to share with Durant? The only reason Rose scores 2.7 points more than Westbrook per game? He has taken 200 more shots.

The Miami Herald



Read more: http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/nba#ixzz1HvdcoVpO

redwhitenblue
03-28-2011, 04:40 PM
If that's Lebatard's article, did he bother realizing and fixing his incorrect statistics?

Cano4prez
03-28-2011, 04:41 PM
Oh God..

mrs rose
03-28-2011, 04:42 PM
Oh God..

i feel ya bruh

MagicBucsSox
03-28-2011, 04:43 PM
this article doesnt bash rose who should win MIP, but defines the letters MVP. ive seen so many pg's have a great season and not get this award

papipapsmanny
03-28-2011, 04:54 PM
kind of has a point, and westbrook has shot more efficiently and has been a better passer

Jonathan2323
03-28-2011, 04:56 PM
Agree with the whole article.

For the record he thinks D Howard should win it.

D Roses Bulls
03-28-2011, 04:56 PM
Again if you honestly think westbrook is on roses level than you DO NOT WATCH MANY GAMES!!!! go read wilbons chat today about this article.

SteveNash
03-28-2011, 04:58 PM
Westbrook isn't equal to Rose, he's better.

Jonathan2323
03-28-2011, 04:59 PM
Again if you honestly think westbrook is on roses level than you DO NOT WATCH MANY GAMES!!!! go read wilbons chat today about this article.

Does Rose have some hidden intangibles lol. Westbrook is more efficient and equally as hard to guard.

Cano4prez
03-28-2011, 05:00 PM
Again if you honestly think westbrook is on roses level than you DO NOT WATCH MANY GAMES!!!! go read wilbons chat today about this article.

I haven't read either but Wilbon is a major Bulls homer

SteBO
03-28-2011, 05:00 PM
Here's the difference. Westbrook has Durant, Rose has Deng. Rose is doing is more with less talent. I love LeBatard, but he's off base here.

theheatles
03-28-2011, 05:00 PM
I haven't read either but Wilbon is a major Bulls homer

wilbon is the #1 culprit for spewing this rose for mvp disease

D Roses Bulls
03-28-2011, 05:01 PM
Does Rose have some hidden intangibles lol. Westbrook is more efficient and equally as hard to guard.

theres no point in going back and fourth with you. okay well you can take westbrook on your team than.

redwhitenblue
03-28-2011, 05:01 PM
I haven't read either but Wilbon is a major Bulls homer
And Lebatard is a major Bulls hater.

1-800-STFU
03-28-2011, 05:01 PM
Shitstorm INC

Miami vs Chicago round #2139182739

GO

MelkyNYY
03-28-2011, 05:02 PM
Westbrook is by far a more efficient player than Rose. The statistics don't lie.

Doogolas
03-28-2011, 05:02 PM
There's a thread for this. It's the MVP Thread.

Otherwise should Bulls fans be posting things from the Chicago Tribune? It's just as relevant.

Doogolas
03-28-2011, 05:03 PM
Westbrook is by far a more efficient player than Rose. The statistics don't lie.

Rose is a more efficient passer and an equally efficient scorer, so, um, what?

Mr. Baller
03-28-2011, 05:03 PM
Give me Rose any day of the week, you pair Rose with Durant he puts up better efficiency stats then Westbrook. It is tough to be as efficient as Westbrook if he has Luol Deng has his 2nd main scorer.

Gators123
03-28-2011, 05:05 PM
Again if you honestly think westbrook is on roses level than you DO NOT WATCH MANY GAMES!!!! go read wilbons chat today about this article.

Everybody knows Wilbon is a major Bulls homer.

SteveNash
03-28-2011, 05:05 PM
Give me Rose any day of the week, you pair Rose with Durant he puts up better efficiency stats then Westbrook. It is tough to be as efficient as Westbrook if he has Luol Deng has his 2nd main scorer.

Put LeBron next to Bosh and Wade and his efficiency will go through the roof.

Oh wait.

Jonathan2323
03-28-2011, 05:06 PM
Give me Rose any day of the week, you pair Rose with Durant he puts up better efficiency stats then Westbrook. It is tough to be as efficient as Westbrook if he has Luol Deng has his 2nd main scorer.

Boozer is the 2nd leading scorer on the Bulls...

After Durant and Westbrook there isn't alot of help offensively there 3rd leading scorer is Harden at 12. Bulls have Deng and Boozer avg 18ppg.

J4KOP99
03-28-2011, 05:08 PM
All of you need to stop with the obsession of MVP.

When was the last time the MVP's team won a championship?

These awards are meaningless unless you're winning titles.

jneises21
03-28-2011, 05:10 PM
I'll take Westbrook

Mr. Baller
03-28-2011, 05:10 PM
Boozer is the 2nd leading scorer on the Bulls...

After Durant and Westbrook there isn't alot of help offensively there 3rd leading scorer is Harden at 12. Bulls have Deng and Boozer avg 18ppg.

Clearly you forget about Jeff Green who was there at the time who also averaged 14 ppg while in OKC. Boozer has also missed the majority of the season, making your point moot. If Rose has a healthy squad he would be much more efficient. He has to carry the Bulls offensively, Westbrook does not.

Hawkeye15
03-28-2011, 05:12 PM
pretty agree with the synopsis,, but not all the details of the article. I can't be convinced the Bulls wouldn't be the team they are if you simply switched Roes and Westbrook

Kyben36
03-28-2011, 05:16 PM
If lebron cant have it, nobody can,

edit

if Lebron or Wade cant have it, nobody can.

and how can Westbrook be MVP, when he isnt even the best player on his own team ???

NO OFFENSE

king4day
03-28-2011, 05:16 PM
I think the biggest difference is Rose is the focal point of Chicago's offense while Durant is for OKC. It's possible if you swapped the two you might be hearing talk the other way around. Hard to say though.

Rocketsfan85
03-28-2011, 05:19 PM
I never thought about this but it's true.

chicago lulz
03-28-2011, 05:22 PM
Statistically speaking, Russell Westbrook may be every bit the equal of Derrick Rose.
I respectfully disagree


The Bulls' offense is statistically mediocre; Rose is that offense's best player.
Mediocre in what sense? The fact that it's ranked 12 or wherever? Is that the only telling statistic to judge a team's offense? I believe the Bulls are up there in margin, although I understand that's due to Defense as well.

Also, since Rose is that offense, is he not the focus of the opposing team's defense? He see's the double/triple team every game. The offense rides his back many times during the 4th quarter. As much as defense wins game, it isn't going to do **** unless there is some offense (see Bucks).


The Bulls' defense is best in the league; Rose might be that defense's least important piece.
I wouldn't say he's the least important, as it is a team defense, and everyone is accountable on the defensive end. It is Rose's job to lure whoever he is defending towards the bigs so they can provide that help defense. I will say he has trouble fighting through the pick and roll at times, but he will contest and put pressure on an opposing player, and has done so fairly well throughout the year.


But throw all the ingredients together in the Winning Pot, make a stew with a flavor that surprises us and you, too, can taste like MVP.
Yes winning the MVP involves a stew of different flavors. Not just one (see Stat heads). He has provided different flavors to the pot in order to make a case for MVP and it has been evident throughout the season.


Rose benefits from the greatness of his teammates
And his teammates benefit greatly on him being the focus of defenses. It allows for players to get open. Do you not see teams collapsing on him when he drives or gets anywhere inside the paint?


but Westbrook is harmed by the greatness of his more famous one (Kevin Durant).
How is he harmed when he was given MVP consideration earlier in the year? Shouldn't Kevin Durant's stardom allow for him to put up even higher numbers considering Rose and Westbrook are equal?
Rose = Westbrook
Rose = #1 Option
Westbrook = #2 Option
The focus on Durant should free him up many more times than Rose.
Westbrook shouldn't be harmed by Durant's greatness. He should thrive.


Would Westbrook be MVP if he simply had Chicago's defense?
Seeing as we'll never know, since I don't see Westbrook and Rose switching places, let's go off the fact that OKC was up there in defense last year due to Ron Adams who is currently with the Bulls as an assistant. I'll let you be the judge of whether or not Westbrook would be MVP if he had "Chicago's defense" or at least the closest thing to it.


Would he be a bigger scorer than Rose if he didn't have to share with Durant? The only reason Rose scores 2.7 points more than Westbrook per game? He has taken 200 more shots.
He has taken 200 more shots because he has to. One could make an argument that he should Westbrook should score more with his skill-set and not being the entire focus of opposing team's defense.


I get that people love statistics as they should. But, it is not the only factor when discussing MVP. Statistics are still numbers and as clear cut as they may be, they don't tell the whole story. That is why you have to use what is witnessed along with what is equated to make a fair analysis. Throwing out just numbers does not equal a strong argument.

Derrick Rose:
FGA: 20.2
FG%: .439
eFG%: .478

Lebron James:
FGA: 17.5
FG%: .505
eFG%: .536

Simple math applied we can see dependence upon FG attempts and taking into account FG and eFG%
20.2*.439 = 8.8678
20.2*.478 = 9.6556

17.5*.505 = 8.8375
17.5*.536 = 9.38

Obviously this is very primitive, but essentially similar numbers as far as what we can expect to see from Rose and Lebron as far as FG made.

That is only to point out that statistics, although important in analyzing a player, isn't the only factor.

Anyways, I don't know if it was worth typing all this out, as I don't expect as long as a response, but I enjoyed it.

Chi StateOfMind
03-28-2011, 05:22 PM
im tired of seeing this if u really think that go head...but ill take rose everyday and im not a homer just bein honest....what rose does for the bulls is way bigger then westbrook and i dont care if they have similar stats...MVP stands for most valuable player and westbrook is not the most valuable durant is....u take rose off the bulls and there goes are season..

gotoHcarolina52
03-28-2011, 05:23 PM
I'm a Heat fan, but all these Bulls-Heat sissy fits makes me wish the Sixers or Pacers win the East this year.

SteveNash
03-28-2011, 05:25 PM
I get that people love statistics as they should. But, it is not the only factor when discussing MVP. Statistics are still numbers and as clear cut as they may be, they don't tell the whole story. That is why you have to use what is witnessed along with what is equated to make a fair analysis. Throwing out just numbers does not equal a strong argument.

Derrick Rose:
FGA: 20.2
FG%: .439
eFG%: .478

Lebron James:
FGA: 17.5
FG%: .505
eFG%: .536

Simple math applied we can see dependence upon FG attempts and taking into account FG and eFG%
20.2*.439 = 8.8678
20.2*.478 = 9.6556

17.5*.505 = 8.8375
17.5*.536 = 9.38

Insert sig quote.

What are you trying to say man?

chicago lulz
03-28-2011, 05:31 PM
Insert sig quote.

What are you trying to say man?

See end of rant: Essentially statistics only mean so much and although Lebron has a higher eFG%, they are essentially providing the same amount of production with the amount of FGA they each put up.

Thought it was pretty clear with the amount of times I said "statistics only mean so much" :shrug:

ManRam
03-28-2011, 05:31 PM
Here's the difference. Westbrook has Durant, Rose has Deng. Rose is doing is more with less talent. I love LeBatard, but he's off base here.

Rose also has the league's best defense :shrug:

Everyone always ignores defense...

SteBO
03-28-2011, 05:33 PM
Rose also has the league's best defense :shrug:

Everyone always ignores defense...
That too, but nobody can convince me that the Bulls would necessarily be a better team with Westbrook than with Rose. Just my opinion in all honesty.

Chi StateOfMind
03-28-2011, 05:34 PM
Rose also has the league's best defense :shrug:

Everyone always ignores defense...

all i know is that ill take rose over westbrook everytime as im sure a crapload of other people would....

and not to knock westbrook b/c hes a great player but ill take rose

effen5
03-28-2011, 05:34 PM
durant = deng

papipapsmanny
03-28-2011, 05:36 PM
See end of rant: Essentially statistics only mean so much and although Lebron has a higher eFG%, they are essentially providing the same amount of production with the amount of FGA they each put up.

Thought it was pretty clear with the amount of times I said "statistics only mean so much" :shrug:

What? Players are judged off production, and stats quantify that production

Stats almost mean everything

chicago lulz
03-28-2011, 05:37 PM
Rose also has the league's best defense :shrug:

Everyone always ignores defense...

Rose 'has' defense, yes, but he's just as much apart of that defense. It's not like Rose focuses on offense, and then rest of team focuses on defense. I don't think anyone has ignored defense, as I've seen it stated many times as the reason the Bulls are doing so well, why Rose shouldn't be MVP, and so on.

ManRam
03-28-2011, 05:37 PM
That too, but nobody can convince me that the Bulls would necessarily be a better team with Westbrook than with Rose. Just my opinion in all honesty.

Oh, I'll agree with that. It was just my shameless attempt to credit the most underrated aspect of that team's success. Again, that's why they're so dominant this year, at least more so than anything else.

Rose is more valuable than Westbrook for sure. I do think that if you swapped the two the drop off wouldn't be much...because of that defense...and because they are so damn similar (Westy may even be more efficient).

But I don't think anyone is saying Westy should be the MVP over Rose...just that he may be better...which I'm not sure I buy.

HesterTrain
03-28-2011, 05:39 PM
Why all the "what if's?" all the time? What if he had Chicago's defense? What if they switched spots? What if he had Durant instead of Deng? Then the tides would turn right? Reading most of this crap is getting stupid. Why not just discuss "what is" and not "what if's". No one really knows what Westbrook would do with a better defense or if he was the focal point of his teams success.

SteveNash
03-28-2011, 05:40 PM
See end of rant: Essentially statistics only mean so much and although Lebron has a higher eFG%, they are essentially providing the same amount of production with the amount of FGA they each put up.

Thought it was pretty clear with the amount of times I said "statistics only mean so much" :shrug:

If you wanted to use FGM why didn't you do that instead of FGA/G*FG%.

Then you got LeBron's FGA wrong, it's 18.8.

So LeBron's numbers are 9.494 and 10.0768. Significantly higher than Rose.

But I'm still not sure what you were trying to prove in the first place.

apg3410
03-28-2011, 05:43 PM
All i have to say is that you are all obviously not very bright. Look at monta ellis, his stats are better then both rose and westbrook. should he be mvp...no his team is not even a 500 club. You all need to actually watch games and quit being so ignorant that is all oh and rose is by far the mvp of the league.

ManRam
03-28-2011, 05:43 PM
Isreal Guttierez beat LeBetard to this this weekend...

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/es-6263657/parting_shot_presumptive_mvp/

I agree with his comments :shrug:

I said it at the beginning of the season when we so badly wanted Durant to be the next superstar. Durant-mania was just through the roof. We wanted fresh blood after the LeBron mania. Once Durant faltered out of the gates, and the Bulls started streaking, Rose became the guy, along with Blake (culminating in him winning the dunk competition, something he shouldn't have won), that the media fixated on.

Rose is the MVP...and it's hard to argue against a the best guy on the best team in the East. But 10 years from now, we'll look at this like we looked at Iverson and like we looked at Nash: with a lot more skepticism than we do now. Because we won't be prisoners of the moment.

chicago lulz
03-28-2011, 05:44 PM
[/B]

What? Players are judged off production, and stats quantify that production

Stats almost mean everything

Stats quantify that production, but statistics are only so telling. It gives you an idea/estimate of a player through numbers yes, but statistics don't take into account everything that is going on in a game.

I wouldn't be surprised if basketball statistics got up towards the level of baseball statistics, but at this point it's still in earlier stages as far as development.

DaBear
03-28-2011, 05:45 PM
Westbrook gets the benefit of playing aside the leagues BEST scorer. I honestly think Rose, CP3, D-Will, and John Wall are all better than Westbrook. Neither one of those pg's has the opportunity to play with an elite player on their squad. Westbrook is becoming overrated for his own good. Yes, he's a good player, but lay off the crack pipe people.

ManRam
03-28-2011, 05:45 PM
All i have to say is that you are all obviously not very bright. Look at monta ellis, his stats are better then both rose and westbrook. should he be mvp...no his team is not even a 500 club. You all need to actually watch games and quit being so ignorant that is all oh and rose is by far the mvp of the league.

If you think that's what we're saying, you clearly are not getting what we're saying either...

And his numbers aren't better. So you're 0-2 in this post ;) (Unless all you care about are counting per game stats...because advanced stats hate him)

DaBear
03-28-2011, 05:46 PM
And I won't read any crap from LeRetard or the Miami Herald.

ManRam
03-28-2011, 05:47 PM
Westbrook gets the benefit of playing aside the leagues BEST scorer. I honestly think Rose, CP3, D-Will, and John Wall are all better than Westbrook. Neither one of those pg's has the opportunity to play with an elite player on their squad. Westbrook is becoming overrated for his own good. Yes, he's a good player, but lay off the crack pipe people.

You really think John Wall is better than Westbrook? Maybe in a few years, but you really think that right now he's better than Westbrook?

Come on now...


And playing alongside a star helps, to an extent. But then again, Bosh, Wade and LeBron stats have all declined significantly this season...so maybe not. That logic rests on extremely shaky foundations. Kobe is a perfect example too...look at his stats with and without Shaq, some things look better, some don't. You can't make that assumption. It's not a fact.

Gators123
03-28-2011, 05:48 PM
Westbrook gets the benefit of playing aside the leagues BEST scorer. I honestly think Rose, CP3, D-Will, and John Wall are all better than Westbrook. Neither one of those pg's has the opportunity to play with an elite player on their squad. Westbrook is becoming overrated for his own good. Yes, he's a good player, but lay off the crack pipe people.

:laugh2: Follow your own advice.

chicago lulz
03-28-2011, 05:50 PM
If you wanted to use FGM why didn't you do that instead of FGA/G*FG%.

Then you got LeBron's FGA wrong, it's 18.8.

So LeBron's numbers are 9.494 and 10.0768. Significantly higher than Rose.

But I'm still not sure what you were trying to prove in the first place.

Error on my part. Was looking at the wrong column I suppose. I'm not trying to prove anything with those numbers. I first brought them up as I calculated them as being similar, with respect to FGA.

Nevermind. I really only feel like typing out so much.

ManRam
03-28-2011, 05:51 PM
And I won't read any crap from LeRetard or the Miami Herald.

Of course not! Why read people's opinions that differ from yours? Objectivity is just evil! Why bother trying to see the other side of the argument? That side is just foolish...they're just idiots. Right?

DaBear
03-28-2011, 05:52 PM
You really think John Wall is better than Westbrook? Maybe in a few years, but you really think that right now he's better than Westbrook?

Come on now...


And playing alongside a star helps, to an extent. But then again, Bosh, Wade and LeBron stats have all declined significantly this season...so maybe not. That logic rests on extremely shaky foundations. Kobe is a perfect example too...look at his stats with and without Shaq, some things look better, some don't. You can't make that assumption. It's not a fact.

If you put Wall on the Thunder right now, he would probably contribute equally if not better than Westbrook. And comparing a PG-SF/SG is different from a SF/SG tandem. Wade and LeBron are players that need the ball in their hands a lot. Rose has shown he can be the guy and the facilitator. Rose's PPG would probably drop to around 21, but he would be averaging double digits APG.

We all have our own opinions. You can disagree with it, but it doesn't mean it's not a valid opinion.

k.smith904
03-28-2011, 05:52 PM
he's right.

We should give the M to Lebron, V to Wade, and P to Bosh.

Then throw a parade.

DaBear
03-28-2011, 05:53 PM
Of course not! Why read people's opinions that differ from yours? Objectivity is just evil! Why bother trying to see the other side of the argument? That side is just foolish...they're just idiots. Right?

I do read others opinions, but some I don't because I know they are biased. And yes you are right. LeBatard is a known moron and very biased against the Bulls.

And you honestly don't think there is any bias against the Bulls in a Miami based media? Don't be so naive..

Jonathan2323
03-28-2011, 05:54 PM
he's right.

We should give the M to Lebron, V to Wade, and P to Bosh.

Then throw a parade.

Again LeBatard thinks Dwight Howard should win the MVP.

Master Mind
03-28-2011, 05:55 PM
Here's the difference. Westbrook has Durant, Rose has Deng/Boozer/Noah. Rose is doing is more with slightly less to equal talent. I love LeBatard, but he's off base here.

Fixed

SoxBearsBulls!
03-28-2011, 05:55 PM
Of course not! Why read people's opinions that differ from yours? Objectivity is just evil! Why bother trying to see the other side of the argument? That side is just foolish...they're just idiots. Right?

Objectivity from the MIAMI Herald? rofl

DaBear
03-28-2011, 05:55 PM
:laugh2: Follow your own advice.

Wall > Westbrook. Laugh now, but you'll see why in a few years.

D Roses Bulls
03-28-2011, 05:56 PM
Rose also has the league's best defense :shrug:

Everyone always ignores defense...

and that only gets you so far. just ask the Bucks about that.

Master Mind
03-28-2011, 05:57 PM
People are disgustingly underrating Westbrook...

Redbull
03-28-2011, 05:57 PM
When are people going to learn what a MVP really is? It's not about how many points you score or how much better of a shooting% someone has, It's about who was the most important to his team that year and right now other than maybe Dwight Howard there is nobody who is more important to there team than Derrick Rose, I'm not saying he is the best player but with the Injuries we have had this year and the lack of scoring support from are SG position Rose has kept us atop of the Eastern Confrence and to me that right there makes him my MVP.

SoxBearsBulls!
03-28-2011, 05:57 PM
Again LeBatard thinks Dwight Howard should win the MVP.

I think a possible argument as to why Howard shouldn't win MVP over Rose actually comes down to how they are used during crunch time. The notion of clutch might actually be a lot more important in basketball than a slow paced sport like baseball, simply because there's that notion of the race against the clock. Basketball in the final 5 minutes is played a whole lot differently than basketball outside of those 5 minutes. Baseball still remains baseball, for the most part, even in late game situations.

So in terms of clutch statistics, Rose is one of the most effective. His 69% winning% (based on ORtg and DRtg) in clutch situations is the second highest out of all the MVP candidates you can think of (Dirk has the best at 77%).

Howard, James, Wade, and Kobe hover around the 55-60% range, much, much lower than their normal percentages. This is normal, as in baseball and any sport out there, performing in the clutch is different than performing in a neutral situation.

What is different about Howard than all the other candidates is how much he's being used. I don't have the actual usage numbers, but per 48 minutes, he's getting up 9 shots in the last 5 minutes of a close game. The other guys? Nowitzki is getting 25, Kobe is taking 38, Rose is taking 37, LeBron is taking 29, Durant is taking 30, you get the idea...

Howard is the only MVP candidate that the team is not depending on to score when it comes to late situations. Orlando has a winning percentage of .580 in close games, compared to .620 by the Bulls, .630 by OKC, and .650 by the Lakers. There's probably a reason for that. Their best player is not the one taking the big shots in the end.
And I don't think I'd want Howard taking the shots at the end of the game, especially if they are free throws, which he is shooting 67% on in clutch situations, compared to the 80-90% you're seeing from the other candidates. One of the biggest things people look at in the NBA is how players perform in crunch time. Jordan is who he is partly because of how great of a closer he was.

Dwight's overall numbers and efficiency numbers are better than Rose and some of the other MVP candidates. But Howard is missing a huge component that all the other candidates have and it's definitely one that matters in the eyes of just about everyone.

metsbulls1025
03-28-2011, 05:58 PM
Oh, I'll agree with that. Rose is more valuable than Westbrook for sure. I do think that if you swapped the two the drop off wouldn't be much...because of that defense...and because they are so damn similar (Westy may even be more efficient).

Do you think Westbrook would be as efficient if they centered the offesne around him? Most of the time either Rose is driving or he passes the ball of to come off a screen and then creates.

Rose averages about 3 more shot attempts then Westbrook. Just looking at that it doesn't seem like much, but over the course of the season a ratio like that is very significant. As of right now it is about a 200 shot difference. Westbrook right now is .8 better in PER.

Their TS% is the same at 54%, but their eFG% is 48% to 46% in favor of Rose. Rose has him in WS at 11.3 to 8.4.

I am not saying you are wrong in thinking they are similar, but if the Thunder tomorrow built their offense around Westbrook would he be able to sustain those numbers? What I think hurts Rose and helps Westbrook is this.....

Rose - - 3PA - - 337
Westbrook - - 3PA - - 88

Now I know very little about advanced stats so I will ask you or anyone the question on this. Would that big difference in 3PA effect PER, TS%, and eFG% with Rose only shooting 33% to Westbrooks 35%?

It seems like all three categories I mentioned all take into account 3pt shooting.

ManRam
03-28-2011, 05:59 PM
If you put Wall on the Thunder right now, he would probably contribute equally if not better than Westbrook. And comparing a PG-SF/SG is different from a SF/SG tandem. Wade and LeBron are players that need the ball in their hands a lot. Rose has shown he can be the guy and the facilitator. Rose's PPG would probably drop to around 21, but he would be averaging double digits APG.

We all have our own opinions. You can disagree with it, but it doesn't mean it's not a valid opinion.

John Wall has been awful this year. I know three Wizard fans here specifically that I've discussed this with that don't think he's a top 10 PG this year, irregardless of situation. Good per game stats, arguably the most inefficient starting PG in the league.

You're entitled to your opinion, I just think it's being shaped with a bit too much hate and bias. :shrug:

He's seriously been terrible. It's not even like teams are throwing extra guys at him.

DaBear
03-28-2011, 05:59 PM
I think a possible argument as to why Howard shouldn't win MVP over Rose actually comes down to how they are used during crunch time. The notion of clutch might actually be a lot more important in basketball than a slow paced sport like baseball, simply because there's that notion of the race against the clock. Basketball in the final 5 minutes is played a whole lot differently than basketball outside of those 5 minutes. Baseball still remains baseball, for the most part, even in late game situations.

So in terms of clutch statistics, Rose is one of the most effective. His 69% winning% (based on ORtg and DRtg) in clutch situations is the second highest out of all the MVP candidates you can think of (Dirk has the best at 77%).

Howard, James, Wade, and Kobe hover around the 55-60% range, much, much lower than their normal percentages. This is normal, as in baseball and any sport out there, performing in the clutch is different than performing in a neutral situation.

What is different about Howard than all the other candidates is how much he's being used. I don't have the actual usage numbers, but per 48 minutes, he's getting up 9 shots in the last 5 minutes of a close game. The other guys? Nowitzki is getting 25, Kobe is taking 38, Rose is taking 37, LeBron is taking 29, Durant is taking 30, you get the idea...

Howard is the only MVP candidate that the team is not depending on to score when it comes to late situations. Orlando has a winning percentage of .580 in close games, compared to .620 by the Bulls, .630 by OKC, and .650 by the Lakers. There's probably a reason for that. Their best player is not the one taking the big shots in the end.
And I don't think I'd want Howard taking the shots at the end of the game, especially if they are free throws, which he is shooting 67% on in clutch situations, compared to the 80-90% you're seeing from the other candidates. One of the biggest things people look at in the NBA is how players perform in crunch time. Jordan is who he is partly because of how great of a closer he was.

Dwight's overall numbers and efficiency numbers are better than Rose and some of the other MVP candidates. But Howard is missing a huge component that all the other candidates have and it's definitely one that matters in the eyes of just about everyone.

:clap:

Crackadalic
03-28-2011, 05:59 PM
D-Rose should win it. Its not a stat award so all of the " Russell Westbrook is statistically better" is irrelevant

chicago lulz
03-28-2011, 06:00 PM
Of course not! Why read people's opinions that differ from yours? Objectivity is just evil! Why bother trying to see the other side of the argument? That side is just foolish...they're just idiots. Right?

When they lack integrity. I'm not saying the article specifically as I really only skimmed it. But no need to act all high and mighty.

shizzle09
03-28-2011, 06:00 PM
Again if you honestly think westbrook is on roses level than you DO NOT WATCH MANY GAMES!!!! go read wilbons chat today about this article.

LMFAO, If you actually watch the games you'd see Westbrook is clearly right there with Rose. You need to understand what you're watching which apparently you do not. Rose is the man but Westbrook is a beast as well.

ManRam
03-28-2011, 06:01 PM
If you put Wall on the Thunder right now, he would probably contribute equally if not better than Westbrook. And comparing a PG-SF/SG is different from a SF/SG tandem. Wade and LeBron are players that need the ball in their hands a lot. Rose has shown he can be the guy and the facilitator. Rose's PPG would probably drop to around 21, but he would be averaging double digits APG.

We all have our own opinions. You can disagree with it, but it doesn't mean it's not a valid opinion.

John Wall has been awful this year. I know three Wizard fans here specifically that I've discussed this with that don't think he's a top 10 PG this year, irregardless of situation. Good per game stats; arguably the most inefficient starting PG in the league.

You're entitled to your opinion, I just think it's being shaped with a bit too much hate and bias, and a desire to slander Westy :shrug:

He's seriously been terrible. It's not even like teams are throwing extra guys at him either.

DaBear
03-28-2011, 06:02 PM
John Wall has been awful this year. I know three Wizard fans here specifically that I've discussed this with that don't think he's a top 10 PG this year, irregardless of situation. Good per game stats, arguably the most inefficient starting PG in the league.

You're entitled to your opinion, I just think it's being shaped with a bit too much hate and bias. :shrug:

He's seriously been terrible. It's not even like teams are throwing extra guys at him.

First of all, he's a rookie. He is going to have bad games. Yet, he is still having a much better rookie year than Westbrook had his rookie year. Give him time. He could be a top 5 PG as early as next year, if the Wizards make good personnel moves.

BTW, I don't hate Westbrook. I just get annoyed when people think he deserves MVP consideration when a monkey knows he's not even the MVP on his own team.

ManRam
03-28-2011, 06:02 PM
When they lack integrity. I'm not saying the article specifically as I really only skimmed it. But no need to act all high and mighty.

How about just playing off his article, you tell us what he is wrong about. Like, dissect his arguments :shrug:

shizzle09
03-28-2011, 06:03 PM
People are disgustingly underrating Westbrook...

agreed.

footballer2369
03-28-2011, 06:03 PM
Objectivity from the MIAMI Herald? rofl

A statistical analysis about a guy in Chicago vs. another guy in OKC (and subsequently a guy in Orlando) done by a writer from Miami is objective... There is no denying this.

He's not speculating, he's backing his claims with stats, which is something anyone arguing for Rose can not do successfully.

D Roses Bulls
03-28-2011, 06:03 PM
LMFAO, If you actually watch the games you'd see Westbrook is clearly right there with Rose. You need to understand what you're watching which apparently you do not. Rose is the man but Westbrook is a beast as well.

no...... you do not understand what you are watching. its easy to look good when you play next to ****ing kevin durrant. now i think westbrook is good, but if you put him in roses place, I will bet everything his numbers would be worse and if you dont think so than you are clueless.

ManRam
03-28-2011, 06:03 PM
First of all, he's a rookie. He is going to have bad games. Yet, he is still having a much better rookie year than Westbrook had his rookie year. Give him time. He could be a top 5 PG as early as next year, if the Wizards make good personnel moves.

In a few years I wouldn't be shocked if he's the best PG in the game.

You said "right now". That's why I nearly spat out my milk.

Bullsfan22
03-28-2011, 06:06 PM
In a few years I wouldn't be shocked if he's the best PG in the game.

You said "right now". That's why I nearly spat out my milk.

whose better Rose or Westbrook? answer with one name.

DaBear
03-28-2011, 06:06 PM
In a few years I wouldn't be shocked if he's the best PG in the game.

You said "right now". That's why I nearly spat out my milk.

I still think if you replace Westbrook with Wall, that he would at least contribute equally.

ManRam
03-28-2011, 06:08 PM
no...... you do not understand what you are watching. its easy to look good when you play next to ****ing kevin durrant. now i think westbrook is good, but if you put him in roses place, I will bet everything his numbers would be worse and if you dont think so than you are clueless.

Did you know that no superstar is assisted on more shots than KD?

64% of his baskets are assisted.

Compare this to...

LeBron: 33%
Kobe: 38%
Wade: 38%
Melo: 46%
Rose: 28%
Westbrook: 18%

When he's scoring, he's doing it on his own. When Durant is scoring, he's being set up. Who do you think is setting him up? Biggest misconception in the NBA is Durant's playmaking skills. He doesn't get a lot of assists, he doesn't create for others, he doesn't help space the court for others. He's heavily dependent on others to score.

Watch how active Westy is in getting Durant involved in the scoring. Very rarely do they just hand it to Durant and say "go". Even more rarely is anyone making it easier for Westbrook...scoring-wise.

k.smith904
03-28-2011, 06:08 PM
Again LeBatard thinks Dwight Howard should win the MVP.

I was hardly being serious.

You can argue for Howard and for Rose, but not against either. They've both played extremely well this season and have willed their teams into legit playoff contention. But Rose has the benefit of being the 25/8 star PG in a major market on the #1 seed in the East.

It is what it is.

poleandreel
03-28-2011, 06:09 PM
no...... you do not understand what you are watching. its easy to look good when you play next to ****ing kevin durrant. now i think westbrook is good, but if you put him in roses place, I will bet everything his numbers would be worse and if you dont think so than you are clueless.

having deng/boozer/noah is much better than just having durant. Those are three players who can easily get rose assists and those are three players that can take the pressure off rose.

Last night is a pretty good example. Durant was 0-8 in the 2nd half and westbrook scored 14 in the 4th against a very good blazers team to lead them to a win. Westbrook is every bit as good as rose. I do think rose is a great player but people are overrating him and underrating westbrook.

They are basically the same player. I do not think westbrook is in mvp consideration but i also dont think rose should be mvp. in consideration, yes. but the mvp, no. that is either howard or lebron

footballer2369
03-28-2011, 06:09 PM
no...... you do not understand what you are watching. its easy to look good when you play next to ****ing kevin durrant. now i think westbrook is good, but if you put him in roses place, I will bet everything his numbers would be worse and if you dont think so than you are clueless.

I say it's easier to look good playing with the #1 defense, and 3 stars who make their living off the ball in Deng, Boozer and Noah.

Logically, this is a better situation for a distributor/playmaker than having a guy who makes a living on the perimeter, with no scoring bigs.

SoxBearsBulls!
03-28-2011, 06:09 PM
One question, since LeRetard says he thinks Howard should be the MVP, who do you want taking the last shot in a close game situation?

Rose or Howard?

I'll take Rose because all you have to do is hack Howard and make him earn it at the line, I'll take that everyday...

IOWACHIFAN
03-28-2011, 06:10 PM
How can you win MVP wheen you cant hit a Free Throw or hit a shot at the end of a game to win???

The MVP is not all about stats... it is in part but also its how the player handels the pressures of a close game i hav not seen Howard, or LaBron or Dirk for that matter compleatly take over a game in the last two mins and dominate like Rose dose

Noah and Boozer have been out for long streches this year two key players on the teamand look at the rec

Bullsfan22
03-28-2011, 06:10 PM
I have a westbrook vs wall thread in the comparison forum post in it. It seems like if threads don't have rose in negative circumstances people won't post when it comes to discussing other pg's.

D Roses Bulls
03-28-2011, 06:10 PM
Did you know that no superstar is assisted on more shots than KD?

64% of his baskets are assisted.

Compare this to...

LeBron: 33%
Kobe: 38%
Wade: 38%
Melo: 46%
Rose: 28%
Westbrook: 18%

When he's scoring, he's doing it on his own. When Durant is scoring, he's being set up. Who do you think is setting him up? Biggest misconception in the NBA is Durant's playmaking skills. He doesn't get a lot of assists, he doesn't create for others, he doesn't help space the court for others. He's heavily dependent on others to score.

Watch how active Westy is in getting Durant involved in the scoring. Very rarely do they just hand it to Durant and say "go". Even more rarely is anyone making it easier for Westbrook...scoring-wise.

come on manram...... don't tell me you believe any of this. I know you do not care for rose, but you can not tell me if they switched places the bulls would be where they are.

Chi StateOfMind
03-28-2011, 06:11 PM
i just dont get this MVP thing..

yes howard has played great this season but he has not lead his team to #1 in the east played w/o his prime players for a peiod of time.....

i mean bulls were 41-41 last year and in one year 2nd best in the league and it starts with rose and ends with thibs

D Roses Bulls
03-28-2011, 06:12 PM
A statistical analysis about a guy in Chicago vs. another guy in OKC (and subsequently a guy in Orlando) done by a writer from Miami is objective... There is no denying this.

He's not speculating, he's backing his claims with stats, which is something anyone arguing for Rose can not do successfully.

LMFAO........ this isn't baseball. stats aren't anywhere near as important as they are in baseball in determining value of a player. some of you people really need to learn this and like wilbon said, lebatard is a baseball guy, not a basketball guy.

finalverse
03-28-2011, 06:13 PM
Awe, how cute...all these reporters trying to make a name for themselves. How about we DON'T deal in the "what ifs", like he is doing here and instead deal with what is real. Bulls only have 1 all-star (Rose) and they have the best record in the East only 3.5 back from having the best record in the league. These cute reporters can try to say Rose has a good supporting cast but they need to answer one question. How many of them thought the Bulls would be this good? Answer....none.

footballer2369
03-28-2011, 06:13 PM
One question, since LeRetard says he thinks Howard should be the MVP, who do you want taking the last shot in a close game situation?

Rose or Howard?

I'll take Rose because all you have to do is hack Howard and make him earn it at the line, I'll take that everyday...

Ok and I'll take Kobe in that situation over Rose...

So Kobe's the MVP I guess.


How can you win MVP wheen you cant hit a Free Throw or hit a shot at the end of a game to win???

The MVP is not all about stats... it is in part but also its how the player handels the pressures of a close game i hav not seen Howard, or LaBron or Dirk for that matter compleatly take over a game in the last two mins and dominate like Rose dose

When has Rose ever dominated? Dwight dominates from start to finish. Rose could never dream of having the impact Dwight has on the game.


come on manram...... don't tell me you believe any of this. I know you do not care for rose, but you can not tell me if they switched places the bulls would be where they are.

Most objective fans believe this, not just manram.

Bullsfan22
03-28-2011, 06:13 PM
Did you know that no superstar is assisted on more shots than KD?

64% of his baskets are assisted.

Compare this to...

LeBron: 33%
Kobe: 38%
Wade: 38%
Melo: 46%
Rose: 28%
Westbrook: 18%

When he's scoring, he's doing it on his own. When Durant is scoring, he's being set up. Who do you think is setting him up? Biggest misconception in the NBA is Durant's playmaking skills. He doesn't get a lot of assists, he doesn't create for others, he doesn't help space the court for others. He's heavily dependent on others to score.

Watch how active Westy is in getting Durant involved in the scoring. Very rarely do they just hand it to Durant and say "go". Even more rarely is anyone making it easier for Westbrook...scoring-wise.

people also can't pack the lanes on westbrook becuase of durant stretching the floor.

and wouldn't that inflate westbrook's assist totals? he has as sure assist to a guy that consistently scores the ball.

ManRam
03-28-2011, 06:15 PM
whose better Rose or Westbrook? answer with one name.

Rose. I've already said that.

I don't think the Bulls would see a huge drop off if the roles were reversed, however. I think they are VERY similar players. I like Russy's shooting and passing better, but I like Rose's overall scoring and playmaking better. Late in games, Rose has shown he can do it. We don't know if Russy can or can't, because Durant does it for him. Russy needs to work on getting his efficiency up (as does Rose), but I think the tempo they play at isn't conducive to his game.

But again, they're so similar. I don't think either team would do significantly better or worse with one or the other.

ManRam
03-28-2011, 06:16 PM
One question, since LeRetard says he thinks Howard should be the MVP, who do you want taking the last shot in a close game situation?

Rose or Howard?

I'll take Rose because all you have to do is hack Howard and make him earn it at the line, I'll take that everyday...

So is that what the MVP means? Who takes the last shot?

Glad we've boiled it down to that...

DaBear
03-28-2011, 06:16 PM
Ok and I'll take Kobe in that situation over Rose...

So Kobe's the MVP I guess.



When has Rose ever dominated? Dwight dominates from start to finish. Rose could never dream of having the impact Dwight has on the game.



Most objective fans believe this, not just manram.

Haha is this a serious question?

AIMelo=KillaDUO
03-28-2011, 06:18 PM
lol. Westbrook is not on DRoses level.

D Roses Bulls
03-28-2011, 06:18 PM
here ya go. call him a homer all you want, but he is right


Sid (San Diego)


Wilbon,While Skip Bayless (who I love outside of the D.Rose argument) continues to think that a scoring point guard is just "not right" and he "hates them", didn't people think the same thing about a scoring champion not being able to win a championship? I think that turned out all right (6 for 6), don't you?
mike wilbon
(2:44 PM)


I like Skip tons and tons...have worked with him, would be thrilled to work with him again and Skip is great at making cases every day and has been for oh, 35 years or so, first as a columnist in Dallas...HOWEVER, on basketball issues, I'm not going with Skip and Dan LeBatard, hardly ever. If they're saying Rose isn't the MVP of the NBA, I KNOW Rose truly is.


LeBatard is a close enough friend that I can RIP him and wonder, like you, whether he watches these things. I kid (mostly) because I know LeBatard watches...I tease Dan all the time that he's a baseball guy who has no instincts for basketball...Dan wants to apply all these baseball metrics to basketall that, to me, don't fit at all. I literally, an hour ago, called and left Dan a message because I think he's about to write a column saying D-Rose is NOT the MVP. And I'm sure Dan will come up with some formula to make his case which I will call dumb and then ignore the column totally...We'll scream at each other and then go to dinner on Miami Beach, where LeBatard will settle up a bet we made in the NBA preseason...Dan bet me the Heat would win 70 games. I took the bet instantly, as Dan ranted that I was a fool and the final number would be 73, maybe 74 wins...The loser had to pay for the most expensive bottle of wine at Prime 112, which our dear friend Myles (the owner) tells us costs $4,300...So, if I keep making basketball bets with Dan LeBatard, I think I'll wind up just fine...or tipsy...

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/37626

Chi StateOfMind
03-28-2011, 06:19 PM
Haha is this a serious question?

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: funniest **** ive seen on PSD in a long time...

when has rose ever dominated

SoxBearsBulls!
03-28-2011, 06:19 PM
Ok and I'll take Kobe in that situation over Rose...

So Kobe's the MVP I guess.



When has Rose ever dominated? Dwight dominates from start to finish. Rose could never dream of having the impact Dwight has on the game.



Most objective fans believe this, not just manram.

Kobe isn't having one of his better years...Gasol has a bigger win share than KB.

It's obvious you don't watch Rose and the Bulls...they only have the best record in the East...Howard is usually sitting at the end of close games because he is shooting 67% in FTs in clutch situations (not good).

D Roses Bulls
03-28-2011, 06:20 PM
ok and i'll take kobe in that situation over rose...

So kobe's the mvp i guess.



When has rose ever dominated? Dwight dominates from start to finish. Rose could never dream of having the impact dwight has on the game.



most objective fans believe this, not just manram.

no........

P-O-Z
03-28-2011, 06:21 PM
lmao ..

IOWACHIFAN
03-28-2011, 06:23 PM
Do any of you watch the NBA??????????????????????????????????

im starting to think NOT

ManRam
03-28-2011, 06:24 PM
Kobe isn't having one of his better years...Gasol has a bigger win share than KB.

It's obvious you don't watch Rose and the Bulls...they only have the best record in the East...Howard is usually sitting at the end of close games because he is shooting 67% in FTs in clutch situations (not good).

Dwight Howard has not once this season sat on the bench at the end of a game unless he's fouled out (which has only been a few times). Seriously, not once. Not even when we had Gortat.

So clearly, you have no been watching the Magic games...

:laugh:

Dwight actually makes 76% of his FTs in the last 4 minutes of the games :shrug: That's only 1 miss per every 10 shots more than Rose.

Not great, but not bad.

And you shouldn't bring advanced stats into an MVP debate, that doesn't help Rose.

heathonater
03-28-2011, 06:24 PM
i think rose deserves to be in the mvp discussion, but im surprised at how unanimous the consensus is for rose getting the mvp. lebron is putting up great numbers again, and although he has wade and bosh, he has had to make great adjustments to accomodate wade and bosh's playing styles. you could also argue howard is deserving of the mvp. he's put up the best numbers of his career, and to be honest, his supporting cast consists of a bunch of guy's that shoot 3's but dont much else on the court.

jmcelligott92
03-28-2011, 06:25 PM
Droses Bulls i just read that in the Wilbon Chat and i knew when i seen this thread you were gonna post that haha

D Roses Bulls
03-28-2011, 06:25 PM
this is the guy who's opinion you trust? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFRayQEGBSA

SoxBearsBulls!
03-28-2011, 06:26 PM
We'll scream at each other and then go to dinner on Miami Beach, where LeBatard will settle up a bet we made in the NBA preseason...Dan bet me the Heat would win 70 games. I took the bet instantly, as Dan ranted that I was a fool and the final number would be 73, maybe 74 wins...The loser had to pay for the most expensive bottle of wine at Prime 112, which our dear friend Myles (the owner) tells us costs $4,300...So, if I keep making basketball bets with Dan LeBatard, I think I'll wind up just fine...or tipsy...

Typical Heat fan...rofl!

Not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six, not seven...lmao

jenko9893
03-28-2011, 06:26 PM
this has to be the worst thread ever on psd. anyone who thinks derrick rose isnt the mvp doesnt understand a damn thing about basketball. period. end of discussion

D Roses Bulls
03-28-2011, 06:26 PM
Droses Bulls i just read that in the Wilbon Chat and i knew when i seen this thread you were gonna post that haha

lol......... well he did make good points. i mean lebatard is a baseball man, not a basketball man.

Tarheels23
03-28-2011, 06:26 PM
So is that what the MVP means? Who takes the last shot?

Glad we've boiled it down to that...

So Ray Allen is the MVP?

chicago lulz
03-28-2011, 06:27 PM
How about just playing off his article, you tell us what he is wrong about. Like, dissect his arguments :shrug:

I dissected 1/3 of the article.

For the first 1/3 of it, statistics don't take into account the full extent of the game. What's going on every second that player is on the floor. Statistics don't take into account what these players have to face on defensive and offensive ends, whether it be a double/triple team, traps, who they're defending etc. Statistics involve averages, and can certainly be used as a measurement of player production, but it can only provide so much insight.

The last 1/3 of the article is kind of a wash and honestly, I'm feeling too lazy to dissect it.


These are the numbers/facts without manipulation
numbers do not correlate to being the only facts, and are not definitive. So at the same time, I believe statistics can only be so factual. A fact is 2+2=4. Statistics involve 'chance' as in "based on statistics, we would hypothesize that Rose would score .439 percent of his shots." Not "based on statistics, we can determine that Rose will only score .439 percent of his shots."

Panthers4life
03-28-2011, 06:30 PM
Rose=2011 NBA MVP

dwadefan03
03-28-2011, 06:31 PM
thank you...drose is good but i really dont think he deserves mvp. Everyone gives him all the credit for chicago's success but theres a guy there named Luol Deng that gets overlooked so frequently that it's disgusting. He's been just as important and to say rose single handedly got the bulls to where they are now is completely false

Doogolas
03-28-2011, 06:37 PM
If this is a thread, does that mean I can seriously post articles from the God damn Chicago Sun Times about why he should be MVP? I never would, but seriously, come on.

SoxBearsBulls!
03-28-2011, 06:37 PM
Howard is actually shooting 58% from the line...HACK A HOWARD!!

blastmasta26
03-28-2011, 06:38 PM
this is the guy who's opinion you trust? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFRayQEGBSA
Ad hominem much?

SoxBearsBulls!
03-28-2011, 06:39 PM
If this is a thread, does that mean I can seriously post articles from the God damn Chicago Sun Times about why he should be MVP? I never would, but seriously, come on.

No because they are homers while the Miami Herald has objective writers, like LeRetard who bet Wilbon the Heat would win 73-74 games...rofl

chicago lulz
03-28-2011, 06:41 PM
http://bullsbythehorns.com/?p=2809

I suppose that does a better job of dissecting the article. But it's a Bulls blog, so I'm sure there will be calls for bias and such.

IOWACHIFAN
03-28-2011, 06:41 PM
:horse:

gotoHcarolina52
03-28-2011, 06:42 PM
Derrick Rose may be a fraud of an MVP, but he's a solid young talent. I look forward to watching him be a top 15 player for years to come!

ManRam
03-28-2011, 06:43 PM
Rose deserves the MVP, but just not as unanimously as it has been. Dissent shouldn't be treated as harshly as it is. The fact that fans are acting with such vitriol towards the voices of dissent is just wrong. Quite frankly, this is one of the weakest winners ever. Dwight Howard and LeBron James are better players. Why is saying the should be mentioned such a heinous crime? It's just so weird to me. I do think it dates back to the off-season and the media's and the fan's desire for fresh blood. The media has hyped Rose up like they've hyped Blake up, and the results are going to be just the same. We all originally wanted Durant to push LeBron to the side, but he faltered early, and then God bestowed us with Rose...and we all ran from there.

Dissent is healthy. I don't get why people are attacking it so immaturely and viscously. It's fine to disagree, just do so intelligently and with reason. These aren't dumb people saying this, no matter who they root for or what you think of them.

When the dust settles, I still think this will be looked upon under similar scrutiny as Nash (X2) and Iverson. I really do. He deserves it for what his team has done, and for how he's helped his team get there, but individually, it is unquestionably one of the weakest MVPs in quite some time :shrug: So again, why are we treating dissent so rudely? We never treated the dissent against LeBron this way...even though he was so much better. We never treated the dissent against Kobe this way...even though he's a top 5-10 player ever. I mean, half the posts here are just calling the authors names and insulting their intelligence without actually debating his points (irregardless of how valid they are).

That's all. Off to study some Anatomy.

Doogolas
03-28-2011, 06:45 PM
ManRam, the dissent is being treated no more or less poorly than those defending Rose for MVP.

Southsideheat
03-28-2011, 06:47 PM
There is not a player that demands more attention than Derrick Rose. Part of the reason is because he is unguardable, and the other part is because the only real shooting threat on the team is Kyle Korver who plays 20 minutes a night.

Sometimes the hype turns out to be the truth. This kid is the truth people. Get over it.

Sadds The Gr8
03-28-2011, 06:50 PM
Dwight deserves it way more than him

LOOTERX9
03-28-2011, 06:50 PM
Rose winning MVP makes NBA look weak. It's Like when Nash won back to back. Dwight Howard is the MVP this year. Howard winning makes NBA look strong.

Howard > Rose

John Walls Era
03-28-2011, 06:52 PM
There is not a player that demands more attention than Derrick Rose. Part of the reason is because he is unguardable, and the other part is because the only real shooting threat on the team is Kyle Korver who plays 20 minutes a night.

Sometimes the hype turns out to be the truth. This kid is the truth people. Get over it.

That might be the biggest lie ever. Everyone knows Lebron and Dwight are harder to stop.

Hawkeye15
03-28-2011, 06:53 PM
All i have to say is that you are all obviously not very bright. Look at monta ellis, his stats are better then both rose and westbrook. should he be mvp...no his team is not even a 500 club. You all need to actually watch games and quit being so ignorant that is all oh and rose is by far the mvp of the league.

no, they are not.

I love how the biggest comeback anyone has to those who could somehow question Rose being MVP is, "watch the games".

I do. I also watch Paul, Westbrook, Williams, and Nash. Do you??? (This statement is towards anyone who uses that tired line as a reply)

The fact is, Rose leads an above average offense as its best player, and is arguably the biggest weakness in its elite defense. How does this quantify MVP? I will be the first to say, the precedent has been set, that you don't need to be a top 5 player to win the MVP award (Iverson, Nash in modern era for example). But to say Rose is going to win MVP because he is in the elite of the elite conversation is ridiculous. He is simply a great player on the best defensive team, and part of the best storyline of the season. There are still 7-9 players better than Rose.

And as I said earlier, there is nobody out there that can convince me the Bulls would be worse with Westbrook. Nor is there anyone out there that can convince me the Thunder would be worse with Rose. They are seriously nearly mirror images of one another so far.

Ezio
03-28-2011, 06:56 PM
I just finished reading this thread and notice how Dirk gets no love. :(
If he was healthy for the whole season, Dallas would be up there with the Spurs.

Southsideheat
03-28-2011, 06:56 PM
That might be the biggest lie ever. Everyone knows Lebron and Dwight are harder to stop.

Lebron has Wade, and Howard hardly ever has the ball in his hand.

SoxBearsBulls!
03-28-2011, 06:57 PM
Oh, baby. Get the kleenex ready. Playoffs gonna start soon, and it aint gonna be pretty for your Bulls. Seeing Red and Crying Foul. Book it.

Actually, it's a well know fact that the Heat cried like little *****es the last time the Bulls came from behind and beat them on their home floor and swept the series 3-0.:D

Hawkeye15
03-28-2011, 06:59 PM
I just finished reading this thread and notice how Dirk gets no love. :(
If he was healthy for the whole season, Dallas would be up there with the Spurs.

Dirk is old news. As is Kobe, LeBron, blah blah blah. That is why this year's MVP is so frustrating to non Bulls fans. A player will win it because he is the hot new thing, not because he deserves it as the best player in the NBA.

I love Rose, and love watching him play. But this will indeed go down in my books as an Iverson/Nash error on the part of the voters. If you want the hot new thing, AND for it to be correct, Dwight Howard should win it

PurpleJesus28
03-28-2011, 07:00 PM
i think the MVP race is really b/t Rose and D12. i don't see how D12 can get it though if he's led his team to a poorer record and seeding than Rose, doesn't make sense to me. and while LeBron is the BETTER player and puts up better STATS, he in NO WAY is more VALUABLE to the Heat than Rose is to the Bulls. Rose is the unquestioned leader of the Bulls, can you say that about Bron and the Heat? people seem to bash the Bulls offense and say its not that great and for that reason Rose shouldn't get the MVP, but can you imagine what our offense would be like w/o him?

D12 is a certified beast, no denying that. but when his competition for MVP has his team performing at a higher level, i don't see how you can give the award to him.

Westbrooks a stud too, but i don't think he'd be nearly as effective w/o Durant IMO. Durant commands the defense's attention allowing Westbrook a lot more freedom on the offensive end.

when looking at an MVP i think people tend to get too caught up in stats and want to give it to the player with the best ones. thats why we have the scoring title, rebounding title, etc. best stats =/= MVP

SoxBearsBulls!
03-28-2011, 07:03 PM
Insane, giving the MVP to the best player of one of the top 2 teams in the NBA.

King Koopa
03-28-2011, 07:07 PM
That too, but nobody can convince me that the Bulls would necessarily be a better team with Westbrook than with Rose. Just my opinion in all honesty.

So Westbrook has Durant, Rose has Boozer,Deng,Noah. I rather have those 3 guys then just Durant. :rolleyes:

Rose is overrated, plain and simple Howard should be MVP this season, 2nd to him Lebron and then Kobe.

blams
03-28-2011, 07:08 PM
LeBron is the MVP hands down, behind Rose. Howard is not the MVP.

jp611
03-28-2011, 07:08 PM
Didnt LebeTARD write this article? I havent looked it up, but my guess is he wrote it.

HE MAD?

King Koopa
03-28-2011, 07:10 PM
Dirk is old news. As is Kobe, LeBron, blah blah blah. That is why this year's MVP is so frustrating to non Bulls fans. A player will win it because he is the hot new thing, not because he deserves it as the best player in the NBA.

I love Rose, and love watching him play. But this will indeed go down in my books as an Iverson/Nash error on the part of the voters. If you want the hot new thing, AND for it to be correct, Dwight Howard should win it

Couldn't agree more, Rose is a good player but great players like Lebron,Wade,Howard,Kobe do it on both sides of the floor. When was the last time you saw Rose having a great defensive play late in games? Or even in a game at all.

kjoke
03-28-2011, 07:10 PM
How can the best player in the league not be the most valuable?

Rose is a good story, nothing more, nothing less

LOOTERX9
03-28-2011, 07:11 PM
So Westbrook has Durant, Rose has Boozer,Deng,Noah. I rather have those 3 guys then just Durant. :rolleyes:

Rose is overrated, plain and simple Howard should be MVP this season, 2nd to him Lebron and then Kobe.

I agree

ramsizzle
03-28-2011, 07:12 PM
So Westbrook has Durant, Rose has Boozer,Deng,Noah. I rather have those 3 guys then just Durant. :rolleyes:

Rose is overrated, plain and simple Howard should be MVP this season, 2nd to him Lebron and then Kobe.

what about ibaka? and green for most of the year? now the second or even best one on one defender at center in Perkins? and Harden? Cmon now? Lebron? Bosh and Wade just went 30-10 along with him. 30 and freaking 10. yeah Lebron...Rose is doing the most with the least of all the great teams in the nba.

ramsizzle
03-28-2011, 07:13 PM
How can the best player in the league not be the most valuable?

Rose is a good story, nothing more, nothing less

its fairly simple...when the best player has a top 3 and top 15 player playing along side.

Ezio
03-28-2011, 07:14 PM
Couldn't agree more, Rose is a good player but great players like Lebron,Wade,Howard,Kobe do it on both sides of the floor. When was the last time you saw Rose having a great defensive play late in games? Or even in a game at all.

DRose vs DWill. Bulls vs Nets. :yawn:

ramsizzle
03-28-2011, 07:14 PM
Couldn't agree more, Rose is a good player but great players like Lebron,Wade,Howard,Kobe do it on both sides of the floor. When was the last time you saw Rose having a great defensive play late in games? Or even in a game at all.

Rose as a damn rookie blocked a shot in boston to win a game? and just a week or two ago blocked a shot to end the game as well....don't speak if you cant say anything worth speaking of.

PurpleJesus28
03-28-2011, 07:14 PM
Couldn't agree more, Rose is a good player but great players like Lebron,Wade,Howard,Kobe do it on both sides of the floor. When was the last time you saw Rose having a great defensive play late in games? Or even in a game at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RQljcjRIHk

1st one that came to me off the top of my head (granted its a few years old). he's improved immensely on the defensive end this season and he's had quite a few great defensive plays late in games this season. had a big steal on d-will earlier in the season at the end of a game too.

gaughan333
03-28-2011, 07:17 PM
So Westbrook has Durant, Rose has Boozer,Deng,Noah. I rather have those 3 guys then just Durant. :rolleyes:

Rose is overrated, plain and simple Howard should be MVP this season, 2nd to him Lebron and then Kobe.

Oh yeah, cuz lebron doesn't have help? You people try to make a point and then go against it in the same post. Boozer and Noah have missed a large number of games as well. Good try though....

With Howard, I'll say he is the other candidate, the only problem is that his team is worse than the bulls.

kjoke
03-28-2011, 07:17 PM
its fairly simple...when the best player has a top 3 and top 15 player playing along side.

Its completely diminishing of the best players achievement and talents when he is not MVP because the term is being miscomprehended by averge fans in thinking it the suprise story of year. The meaning "best player" is he is the most important, put him on any team and they exponentially get better, the most valuable player in the league. Rose is not that.

Southsideheat
03-28-2011, 07:17 PM
Couldn't agree more, Rose is a good player but great players like Lebron,Wade,Howard,Kobe do it on both sides of the floor. When was the last time you saw Rose having a great defensive play late in games? Or even in a game at all.

This is really unfortunate. Did you see Rose vs Paul last time around? Rose vs DWill?

PurpleJesus28
03-28-2011, 07:18 PM
Its completely diminishing of the best players achievement and talents when he is not MVP because the term is being miscomprehended by averge fans in thinking it the suprise story of year. The meaning "best player" is he is the most important, put him on any team and they exponentially get better, the most valuable player in the league. Rose is not that.

who has gotten "exponentially better" from last season, the Heat or the Bulls?

and i disagree with "best player" = "most valuable player." most valuable means w/o this player, their respective team would be trash. Cleveland being terrible this season supports LeBrons MVP last year, easily. take LeBron off the Heat this year and where do you honestly think they'd be in terms of seeding? i'm guessin 6th seed at the lowest. take rose away from the Bulls and where do you see them being?

gaughan333
03-28-2011, 07:20 PM
Its not the Best player award. Its most valuable.

FOBolous
03-28-2011, 07:20 PM
Chris Paul is better than both of them.



/thread

ramsizzle
03-28-2011, 07:21 PM
Its completely diminishing of the best players achievement and talents when he is not MVP because the term is being miscomprehended by averge fans in thinking it the suprise story of year. The meaning "best player" is he is the most important, put him on any team and they exponentially get better, the most valuable player in the league. Rose is not that.

Most important and best are two different things. If you cant understand that you should really e-mail everyone of your teachers from your younger years and voice your anger on how terrible of a job they did.

kjoke
03-28-2011, 07:21 PM
Its not the Best player award. Its most valuable.

Most valuable in terms of what? he has to be valuable to something and thats the bulls. Yes he is the most valuable to the bulls but not from a collective standpoint

ramsizzle
03-28-2011, 07:22 PM
Most valuable in terms of what? he has to be valuable to something and thats the bulls. Yes he is the most valuable to the bulls but not from a collective standpoint

you just said that to stand ground....in that same damn statement you said rose is the mvp :clap:

SoxBearsBulls!
03-28-2011, 07:23 PM
If it was best player, MJ would have won since 84 to 93 straight, who was better than him those years?

ChI_ShIzzLe
03-28-2011, 07:24 PM
LOL. Haters galore in this thread. He's the MVP. Hate all you want. Its his award to lose at this point, and he ain't losing it.

kjoke
03-28-2011, 07:24 PM
who has gotten "exponentially better" from last season, the Heat or the Bulls?

and i disagree with "best player" = "most valuable player." most valuable means w/o this player, their respective team would be trash. Cleveland being terrible this season supports LeBrons MVP last year, easily. take LeBron off the Heat this year and where do you honestly think they'd be in terms of seeding? i'm guessin 6th seed at the lowest. take rose away from the Bulls and where do you see them being?

So the only way to judge a player is by taking him off his team and seeing where he is? Then take howard off the magic and they become worse than the cavs. That point can be made for ALL great players. What you keep on doing is speculating and pointing out winning deferential of possibilities that havent even happened.

jp611
03-28-2011, 07:24 PM
Jordan was also not awarded MVP throughout his career and its because it isnt the BP Award, its the MVP award, get over it you lebron nut-huggers

hotpotato1092
03-28-2011, 07:25 PM
To people who say Rose isn't MVP, I say who is? LeBron? I don't think so, he may be the league's best player, but he isn't the most valuable, Wade is equally capable of carrying that team and you could argue he's hurt them intangibly (his chemistry issues with Wade, the media attention etc...). Kobe? He slept through the beginning of the season, I know why and I condone it, but that also effectively takes him out of the MVP race in my book. Dwight? Not with his team firmly entrenched at 4th in the east and his free throw issues still looming. The fact is, while Rose may not be a perfect candidate, he is the best. I don't see why that's so hard for people to grasp.

Southsideheat
03-28-2011, 07:25 PM
First, Rose < Beasley
Then, Rose is not a top 5 PG
Then, Rose < Rondo
Then, Rose can't shoot
Then, Rose can't pass
Then, Rose can't finish
Then, Rose can't play D
Then, Rose can't win
Now its Rose is not MVP

Looks like people just haven't gotten the point yet. All of this while his 3rd year in the league.

kjoke
03-28-2011, 07:25 PM
Most important and best are two different things. If you cant understand that you should really e-mail everyone of your teachers from your younger years and voice your anger on how terrible of a job they did.

So why call someone the best when he isnt even the most important person? :shrug:

ramsizzle
03-28-2011, 07:26 PM
So the only way to judge a player is by taking him off his team and seeing where he is? Then take howard off the magic and they become worse than the cavs. That point can be made for ALL great players. What you keep on doing is speculating and pointing out winning deferential of possibilities that havent even happened.

so if before the season you saw a cast of gilbert arenas, jrich, hedo, jameer, bass, etc..

would be better than deng, boozer, and noah? that on paper is just as good if not better.

kjoke
03-28-2011, 07:27 PM
Jordan was also not awarded MVP throughout his career and its because it isnt the BP Award, its the MVP award, get over it you lebron nut-huggers

If this is in reference to me, i firmly believe howard is the seasons MVP because he has been the best this year.

drama1386
03-28-2011, 07:27 PM
All of you need to stop with the obsession of MVP.

When was the last time the MVP's team won a championship?

These awards are meaningless unless you're winning titles.

agreed 100%

SoxBearsBulls!
03-28-2011, 07:27 PM
Jordan was also not awarded MVP throughout his career and its because it isnt the BP Award, its the MVP award, get over it you lebron nut-huggers

This

All these Heat bandwagon fans are angry someone is worth more than LeBaby to their team...The Heat have Wade also who I believe is better than LeBaby in clutch situations.

kjoke
03-28-2011, 07:29 PM
so if before the season you saw a cast of gilbert arenas, jrich, hedo, jameer, bass, etc..

would be better than deng, boozer, and noah? that on paper is just as good if not better.

are you really using those players to show how great the magic team has been? Remember this isnt 2006 now.

Southsideheat
03-28-2011, 07:29 PM
To people who say Rose isn't MVP, I say who is? LeBron? I don't think so, he may be the league's best player, but he isn't the most valuable, Wade is equally capable of carrying that team and you could argue he's hurt them intangibly (his chemistry issues with Wade, the media attention etc...). Kobe? He slept through the beginning of the season, I know why and I condone it, but that also effectively takes him out of the MVP race in my book. Dwight? Not with his team firmly entrenched at 4th in the east and his free throw issues still looming. The fact is, while Rose may not be a perfect candidate, he is the best. I don't see why that's so hard for people to grasp.

:clap:

ChI_ShIzzLe
03-28-2011, 07:30 PM
To people who say Rose isn't MVP, I say who is? LeBron? I don't think so, he may be the league's best player, but he isn't the most valuable, Wade is equally capable of carrying that team and you could argue he's hurt them intangibly (his chemistry issues with Wade, the media attention etc...). Kobe? He slept through the beginning of the season, I know why and I condone it, but that also effectively takes him out of the MVP race in my book. Dwight? Not with his team firmly entrenched at 4th in the east and his free throw issues still looming. The fact is, while Rose may not be a perfect candidate, he is the best. I don't see why that's so hard for people to grasp.

Thank you. Jesus.

FOBolous
03-28-2011, 07:30 PM
i think Yao Ming deserves the MVP award. Yao Ming is literally more valuable than all the players in the NBA in terms of actual financial market value and he hasn't even played in 2 years! More money can be made off of Yao Ming than another other player in the NBA!

PurpleJesus28
03-28-2011, 07:30 PM
So the only way to judge a player is by taking him off his team and seeing where he is? Then take howard off the magic and they become worse than the cavs. That point can be made for ALL great players. What you keep on doing is speculating and pointing out winning deferential of possibilities that havent even happened.

yes, taking D12 off the magic would make them terrible, just as taking Rose (or any other star) off their team would make them terrible. BUT when their team isn't achieving greatly with that star, does that really make them the most valuable? i don't think going from a 4 seed to out of the playoffs (magic) is as bad as going from the 1 seed to out of the playoffs (bulls). if you dont achieve greatness with your star while others are, then the achieving teams star is more deserving (if that makes any sense).

ChI_ShIzzLe
03-28-2011, 07:32 PM
If you're a fan of the other playoff teams in the league, you better damn well hope Rose does win the MVP. Cuz if he doesn't, it's over for everyone in the playoffs. Thats the kind of dude he is. He's gonna make sure he wins the Finals MVP.

FOBolous
03-28-2011, 07:33 PM
but yeea...to be completely serious, i think the MVP should go to the best player on the best team in the NBA. or it should go to the player the dominates all the other players in the NBA statistically. or the player that is the biggest reason to the success of their team.

SoxBearsBulls!
03-28-2011, 07:33 PM
Again, if MVP=Best Player, Michael Jordan would have at least a dozen MVP awards.

kjoke
03-28-2011, 07:33 PM
but yeea...to be completely serious, i think the MVP should go to the best player on the best team in the NBA.

ginobili?

kjoke
03-28-2011, 07:37 PM
Again, if MVP=Best Player, Michael Jordan would have at least a dozen MVP awards.

Winning it 5 times is not enough? Esp considering the other winners were magic johnson, hakeem, barkley and robinson. All HOF.

gaughan333
03-28-2011, 07:41 PM
You think those teams wouldn't have traded those guys for michael? you said it was the most valuable collectively...

swirl54
03-28-2011, 07:49 PM
Derrick Rose is the MVP and the best player in the NBA.

Doogolas
03-28-2011, 07:52 PM
Winning it 5 times is not enough? Esp considering the other winners were magic johnson, hakeem, barkley and robinson. All HOF.

But none were Michael Jordan.

So, no, five is not enough. Because MJ was the best player in the NBA far more than five times.

I mean, what, two MVPs aren't enough for LeBron by age 25?

Doogolas
03-28-2011, 07:53 PM
Derrick Rose is the MVP and the best player in the NBA.

No.

gaughan333
03-28-2011, 07:56 PM
Derrick is not the best, but is def most valuable

swirl54
03-28-2011, 07:57 PM
No.

I have every right to have my own opinion. Just like I think Honda is the best made car many would argue Toyota or Ford. I think Rose is and you won't change that move on please.

Htownballa1622
03-28-2011, 08:00 PM
This

All these Heat bandwagon fans are angry someone is worth more than LeBaby to their team...The Heat have Wade also who I believe is better than LeBaby in clutch situations.

Anytime you post I laugh to myself.hate/homerism blinds you.

But anyway.

Mvp is rose or dwight.

Dwight is more valuable to his team imo, but due largely to his teams success- rose will be the mvp. Oh and wilbon is a homer.

And dan l. was making a case for howard being mvp so him being from miami means what exactly? That he hates rose more than dwight? No.

shep33
03-28-2011, 08:08 PM
Lets be real guys, Rose deserves it. I actually think D12 is probably the best player in the league and has shown it on both sides of the court this year... but the Bulls are a better team than Orlando, no question. He should be the MVP, the guy literally carries his team. People saying he shoots too much, well he like Kobe is often given the ball when the shot clock is winding down, and has to jack up a lot of bad shots. His team depends on him to shoot a lot to win.

Rose is the MVP this year, no question.

Gators123
03-28-2011, 08:10 PM
Derrick Rose is the MVP and the best player in the NBA.

:yawn: Yeah, your not overrating him at all.

Kashmir13579
03-28-2011, 08:19 PM
go read wilbons chat today about this article.

aka the biggest chicago homer EVER. he'll even say he is.

swirl54
03-28-2011, 08:19 PM
:yawn: Yeah, your not overrating him at all.

My opinion let me guess you think the self named "king" is I won't argue it's your opinion.

Kashmir13579
03-28-2011, 08:21 PM
Chris Paul is better than both of them.



/thread

it seems so obvious to me.

KINGBAIZE
03-28-2011, 08:23 PM
Statistically speaking, Russell Westbrook may be every bit the equal of Derrick Rose. The Bulls' offense is statistically mediocre; Rose is that offense's best player. The Bulls' defense is best in the league; Rose might be that defense's least important piece. But throw all the ingredients together in the Winning Pot, make a stew with a flavor that surprises us and you, too, can taste like MVP. Rose benefits from the greatness of his teammates, but Westbrook is harmed by the greatness of his more famous one (Kevin Durant). Would Westbrook be MVP if he simply had Chicago's defense? Would he be a bigger scorer than Rose if he didn't have to share with Durant? The only reason Rose scores 2.7 points more than Westbrook per game? He has taken 200 more shots.

The Miami Herald



Read more: http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/nba#ixzz1HvdcoVpO


People wanna make excuses.... but ROSE is GREAT. Just face it. He has proved everything he needs to prove. This entire article is just an excuse. And if its fair to make these comparison's between Westbrook and Rose as far as scoring, then it's fair to say that if Rose had played those 50+ games with Boozer and Noah in the lineup, or if he actually had a SG beside him then he would avg at least 10 assist per game... if not more! Nobody wants to draw those type of conclusions though. But it's true! He avg's 8 apg with a starting SG who avg's 3ppg! THATS UNREAL!

Westbrook has the league's top scorer on his wing and only leads Rose in assist by 1!.......lets talk about that!

KINGBAIZE
03-28-2011, 08:25 PM
:yawn: Yeah, your not overrating him at all.

He's really not. NOBODY in the league can guard him. "NOBODY".

Fnom11
03-28-2011, 08:30 PM
White Mamba for MVP, that way CHI homers are happy and it proves that the MVP is the more pointless award in the NBA.

Fnom11
03-28-2011, 08:31 PM
He's really not. NOBODY in the league can guard him. "NOBODY".

He's had more bad shooting nights than Dwade and Lebron combined.

Kashmir13579
03-28-2011, 08:32 PM
He's really not. NOBODY in the league can guard him. "NOBODY".

Toney Douglas did a decent job thus-far.

h2r09
03-28-2011, 08:43 PM
i find it quite funny that there are 13 pages arguing something that isnt even what lebatard is trying to argue.

hes not arguing that rose is less of an mvp candidate or a player, he is just saying that what is being portrayed as such an incredible season is really nothing unheard of considering there is a 2nd option who is having the same if not better season statistically with lesser overall supporting cast and rose still has the ball in his hands a lot more.

He is also on a very mediocre team offensively and isnt incredible defensively and the direct reason for them being so great defensively.

STOP ARGUING THE POINT OF ROSE VS WESTBROOK AND READ WHAT THE ARTICLE SAID.

MacFitz92
03-28-2011, 09:29 PM
Here's the difference. Westbrook has Durant, Rose has Deng. Rose is doing is more with less talent. I love LeBatard, but he's off base here.

This is an example of something so simplified it's almost stupid. You forgot Boozer and Noah down low, which are both significantly better than any of the bigs Oklahoma has.

MacFitz92
03-28-2011, 09:30 PM
He's really not. NOBODY in the league can guard him. "NOBODY".

Lol?

You think anyone in the league can guard LeBron? or Wade? or Kobe? or Dirk?

JasonJohnHorn
03-28-2011, 09:34 PM
Westbrook has Durant. LBJ and Wade are both legit ALL-NBA First teamers, who play with a third All-star.

Rose: The only All-Star on his team, and his team has a better record than both those teams.

Who ever wrote this article didnt bother to look at the whole picture.

Baller1
03-28-2011, 10:36 PM
I wasn't aware that Westbrook and Rose's only teammates are Durant and Deng...

Some of you guys oversimplify way too ****ing much. :laugh2:

northsider
03-28-2011, 10:40 PM
I wasn't aware that Westbrook and Rose's only teammates are Durant and Deng...

Some of you guys oversimplify way too ****ing much. :laugh2:

hahahah in the grand scheme of things it is terrible how much stock we put into 1 or 2 guys and forget that at the end of the day it is a team as a whole that wins championships. You also have to realize though the same guys we praise are the ones we put all the blame on when they lose even if they weren't at fault.

fin_frenzy_84
03-28-2011, 10:42 PM
MIAMI Herald said that lol

Baller1
03-28-2011, 10:47 PM
hahahah in the grand scheme of things it is terrible how much stock we put into 1 or 2 guys and forget that at the end of the day it is a team as a whole that wins championships. You also have to realize though the same guys we praise are the ones we put all the blame on when they lose even if they weren't at fault.

Oh I know exactly what you're saying, and I'm not even saying I'm not guilty of doing it from time to time.

I just think it's ridiculous when I see posts like "Rose has Deng, Westrook has Durant. Nuff said"... :laugh2:

I wish people had to pass an NBA placement exam to be able to post in here sometimes.

godolphins
03-28-2011, 10:53 PM
It's Lebartad, you guys ever listen to he's show on 790?
But he is right Westbrook should at least get some consideration

uchiha
03-28-2011, 10:59 PM
lol silly... they are the next generation of starting All-Star PGs for sure... both incredible and I'd be thrilled to have either on the Heat

Bullsfan22
03-28-2011, 11:00 PM
so when MIP is giving to love can I make a separate thread with an article making the case some other player deserved it because they had similar stats? I didn't know you could do that.

BcEuAbRsS
03-28-2011, 11:09 PM
Oh I know exactly what you're saying, and I'm not even saying I'm not guilty of doing it from time to time.

I just think it's ridiculous when I see posts like "Rose has Deng, Westrook has Durant. Nuff said"... :laugh2:

I wish people had to pass an NBA placement exam to be able to post in here sometimes.

I dont really watch the Thunder or really know their bench but their starting 5 is one of the best along with the Bulls IMO... Is Perkins still out?

marlinsfan24
03-28-2011, 11:14 PM
I think D12 has a strong arguement for MVP, it's Rose's to lose right now however. And I don't even consider Westbrook as a candidate.

ldawg
03-28-2011, 11:19 PM
not sure what they go by to determine mvp but but it should be a player that a team relies on to win games. If its stats its Lebron, If its most winning team its Tony Parker or Duncan. But if its all of the above then it has to be Rose, Kobe, T Duncan or T Parker, Rhondo, D Wade or Lebron. Remove Rose the Bulls miss the playoffs Remove Kobe Lakers might make 8 seed, remove T Parker or Duncan spurs miss the playoffs, Remove Rhondo Boston finish 7 or 8, Remove Lebon or Wade their still a top team so it has to be Rose. Rose have kept winning with out his two big man for long stretches and still got the job done. He got to be MVP followed by Kobe. The only way kobe get it over Rose if Lakers finish with a better record and kobe beast his butt off. But i think its between Rose, Kobe, Parker, Rhondo Lebron as of today in that sequence.

marlinsfan24
03-28-2011, 11:20 PM
not sure what they go by to determine mvp but but it should be a player that a team relies on to win games. If its stats its Lebron, If its most winning team its Tony Parker or Duncan. But if its all of the above then it has to be Rose, Kobe, T Duncan or T Parker, Rhondo, D Wade or Lebron. Remove Rose the Bulls miss the playoffs Remove Kobe Lakers might make 8 seed, remove T Parker or Duncan spurs miss the playoffs, Remove Rhondo Boston finish 7 or 8, Remove Lebon or Wade their still a top team so it has to be Rose.

What about D12? You take him out and the Magic are on the tier of the T-Wolves.

Baller1
03-28-2011, 11:34 PM
so when MIP is giving to love can I make a separate thread with an article making the case some other player deserved it because they had similar stats? I didn't know you could do that.

Kevin Love's improvements are so far ahead of everyone else's, there isn't much of an argument for anyone else.


I dont really watch the Thunder or really know their bench but their starting 5 is one of the best along with the Bulls IMO... Is Perkins still out?

Offensively, our starting 5 isn't very good offensively (Sefalosha and Perkins are far below average, while Serge is getting better but still very raw).

Yes, and in the 6-7 games he's played our defense has been as good as last season.

rapjuicer06
03-29-2011, 09:05 AM
this is why it should be howard hands down. so they don't have the best team in the east, he's not even the best player in the east. but he is the MVP to his team in the NBA. you look at rose's supporting cast of noah/boozer/deng then you look at LBJ and then you look at kobe's then look at durants and westbrooks then take a look at orlando's. Hedo/Nelson/Richardson/Bass/Arenas/Anderson/Duhon/Q Richardson....wow look at the talent! that team doesn't even have a back up center so that team would be a 5 win team with out howard. give me a ****ing break. howard is the MVP to his team in the league, and thats what the award is based on. this team is still a playoff team ONLY because of howard. and its not like they are some 7 or 8 seed. they are the 4 seed...just isn't fair

allSUAVE
03-29-2011, 09:26 AM
Yea I Believe he Deserve MIP them MVP .

I Guess the suscess Bulls are having no one thought that was possible #1 in the con.

No one did but bulls fans

sevencastro
03-29-2011, 09:54 AM
ill say westbrook is the better overall player but as for mvp goes rose is right now you take rose out and chitown is done but if you take westbrook out they can still play but still think that westbrook is the best 1 of the 2

ChitownSports16
03-29-2011, 09:54 AM
MIAMI Herald said that lol

That's what I said... They just mad that LBJ or Wade are not in the talks as of late.

ChitownSports16
03-29-2011, 09:55 AM
I would love to see how much of a choke job Westbrook would do if he was in a Bull uni.

The Jokemaker
03-29-2011, 09:58 AM
I hate to nitpick here but the grammar in the title is off. It should read "Rose as MVP doesn't add up"

And I think the article brings up valid points. Westbrook is a very talented, less hyped, PG. I'd say him and Rose are roughly equal in their ability.

DwayneMVPwade
03-29-2011, 10:00 AM
Rose is the focal point of defences against all teams. Westbrook is not, Durant is the focal point which means westbrook is more free to do other things.

Dont forget, Chicago has the best record in the East with Boozer and Noah being out throughout times of the season. If that is not an MVP than I dont know what is.

SoxBearsBulls!
03-29-2011, 01:04 PM
Winning it 5 times is not enough? Esp considering the other winners were magic johnson, hakeem, barkley and robinson. All HOF.

Even Magic Johnson over and over had always said MJ was better than him so why did an inferior player win an MVP over MJ?

mj>magic
mj>barkley
mj>robinson
mj>hakeem

Like I've been saying, the MVP is not the best player award...

mjokc
03-29-2011, 01:09 PM
Lol, why do bulls fans act like Russel Westbrook isn't double teamed? He's double teamed almost every time he gets the ball. Thabo sefolosha's man always sags off of him to double westbrook. This Rose hype is getting way out of hand, and before all the insecure bulls fans attack me about westbrook. I believe that Rose is a better overall player than Westbrook, but not by much, rose is just a better finisher and has more control. Westbrook is the better defender, faster, better clutch 3 point shooter etc.

Baller1
03-29-2011, 01:14 PM
Westbrook has a higher FG% at the rim; just an FYI for those of you who say Rose is a better finisher.

mjokc
03-29-2011, 01:28 PM
Westbrook has a higher FG% at the rim; just an FYI for those of you who say Rose is a better finisher.

Well, i'm going off of what I see. I notice westbrook blow a ton of layups simply because he gets wild and out of control. Once he calms down and gets that soft touch and is able to finish those layups on a regular basis, IMO he will be better than rose no question. Westdbrook probably has higher fg % because he is much quicker than rose and dunks way more. He isn't afraid to dunk on anybody, lol. Rose is only hyped more than westbrook because he plays in chicago.

marlinsfan24
03-29-2011, 01:32 PM
That's what I said... They just mad that LBJ or Wade are not in the talks as of late.

Or maybe they can have their own opinion. He picked D12 as MVP and hes very deserving. Rose is my MVP but someone else being considered shouldn't be put down by Bulls fans.

Arch Stanton
03-29-2011, 01:33 PM
If this was a Chicago newspaper I'd find it to be more credible.

DLeeicious
03-29-2011, 01:36 PM
Well, i'm going off of what I see. I notice westbrook blow a ton of layups simply because he gets wild and out of control. Once he calms down and gets that soft touch and is able to finish those layups on a regular basis, IMO he will be better than rose no question. Westdbrook probably has higher fg % because he is much quicker than rose and dunks way more. He isn't afraid to dunk on anybody, lol. Rose is only hyped more than westbrook because he plays in chicago.

All spot on. Westbrook will "no question" be better than Rose once he can figure out how to make those darn layups on a regular basis. His field goal % is higher because he is so much quicker than Rose and dunks way more, exactly that's why I mean those people saying Rose is the quickest in the league are stupid. He isn't afraid to dunk on anyone - honestly if Boykins is in the way of Rose he cowers in fear and won't dunk - spot on again. Rose is definitely only more hyped because of playing in Chicago - it has nothing to do with the Bulls great record full of injuries with a new coach and 7 new players this year.

Good post.

mjokc
03-29-2011, 01:41 PM
All spot on. Westbrook will "no question" be better than Rose once he can figure out how to make those darn layups on a regular basis. His field goal % is higher because he is so much quicker than Rose and dunks way more, exactly that's why I mean those people saying Rose is the quickest in the league are stupid. He isn't afraid to dunk on anyone - honestly if Boykins is in the way of Rose he cowers in fear and won't dunk - spot on again. Rose is definitely only more hyped because of playing in Chicago - it has nothing to do with the Bulls great record full of injuries with a new coach and 7 new players this year.

Good post.

In due time, I doubt you will be such a smart *** after chi is bumped off in the 2nd round after barely escaping the first. A great record in the east, great accomplishment, I wish my team played in the east so that we could play against power houses such as ind, clev, mil, det, char, etc. There is a possibility that the last 3 seeds in the east are below .500.

DLeeicious
03-29-2011, 01:43 PM
In due time, I doubt you will be such a smart *** after chi is bumped off in the 2nd round after barely escaping the first. A great record in the east, great accomplishment, I wish my team played in the east so that we could play against power houses such as ind, clev, mil, det, char, etc 4 times a year.

Bulls record against the West: 21-7. Man I wish we played out there it's so much easier competition we would win 62 at the pace we are on out there.

rapjuicer06
03-29-2011, 01:50 PM
In due time, I doubt you will be such a smart *** after chi is bumped off in the 2nd round after barely escaping the first. A great record in the east, great accomplishment, I wish my team played in the east so that we could play against power houses such as ind, clev, mil, det, char, etc 4 times a year.

this is true, but the west has some ****** teams too. howard is the MVP. by definition of the word, its a no brainer. compare the rosters to each other leaving out howard and rose

boozer/noah/deng/korver/gibson/bogans/brewer/asik/thomas/watson..yea i'm leaving out some thats all i can do off the top of my head...

turk/anderson/arenas/nelson/duhon/richardson/q richardson/redick/bass/clark

watson/?
bogans/brewer
deng/korver
boozer/gibson
noah/thomas/asik

nelson/arenas/duhon
richardson/redick/q
turk/q/clark
bass/anderson/clark
allen?/anderson/orton?

which is the better team? i'm thinking the bulls are the better team even with noah and boozer out, gibby and thomas are still a better than allen and bass. deng is way better than turk. bogans is pretty terrible, but all richardson does is shoot. watson isn't good but nelson makes everyone look like an all star. the bulls are a playoff team with out rose. orlando is a lottery team with out dwight

mjokc
03-29-2011, 01:51 PM
Bulls record against the West: 21-7. Man I wish we played out there it's so much easier competition we would win 62 at the pace we are on out there.

You play in the west and you guys would struggle to get 45-50 wins. You really think your record would be the same playing OKC, LAL, SA, DAL, Memphis, Portland etc 3-4 times each per year? lol

DLeeicious
03-29-2011, 01:54 PM
I am just using what I have available to play your hypothetical games here. You use a lot of "ifs" to try and justify things. So this "if" the Bulls played in the West hypothetical I used our record in the West this year and it's 21-7. We have beaten every team you listed there. In fact off the top of my head we are 9-3 against those teams you listed.

cubfan23
03-29-2011, 01:55 PM
can we please just lock these articles, I'm so tired of seeing the NBA forum clogged with this *****ing by people about how Rose isn't an MVP or anything else. He carried his team when some of his best players were out. Westbrook I haven't seen him play but has he taken over games at the end like how Rose has been doing?

rapjuicer06
03-29-2011, 01:57 PM
can we please just lock these articles, I'm so tired of seeing the NBA forum clogged with this *****ing by people about how Rose isn't an MVP or anything else. He carried his team when some of his best players were out. Westbrook I haven't seen him play but has he taken over games at the end like how Rose has been doing?

what about dwight?

mjokc
03-29-2011, 01:57 PM
I am just using what I have available to play your hypothetical games here. You use a lot of "ifs" to try and justify things. So this "if" the Bulls played in the West hypothetical I used our record in the West this year and it's 21-7. We have beaten every team you listed there. In fact off the top of my head we are 9-3 against those teams you listed.

True, it's all hypothetical. However, I do think the bulls would be top 4 in the west, just not top dog like they are in the east.

shizzle09
03-29-2011, 01:58 PM
That's what I said... They just mad that LBJ or Wade are not in the talks as of late.

Yeah thats it. We're mad our team is playing really really well. It's so funny how some of you Bulls fans are obviously no older than 10. You are one of those fans.

rapjuicer06
03-29-2011, 01:59 PM
True, it's all hypothetical. However, I do think the bulls would be top 4 in the west, just not top dog like they are in the east.

the east has more talent than the west now. the west has the better coaches IMO.

shizzle09
03-29-2011, 02:00 PM
can we please just lock these articles, I'm so tired of seeing the NBA forum clogged with this *****ing by people about how Rose isn't an MVP or anything else. He carried his team when some of his best players were out. Westbrook I haven't seen him play but has he taken over games at the end like how Rose has been doing?

lock articles like this? Wait so if there's articles that disagree with Rose being the almighty god the threads shouldnt be allowed? What does it matter? Rose is Rose and if your a fan who cares what people say.

rapjuicer06
03-29-2011, 02:00 PM
Yeah thats it. We're mad our team is playing really really well. It's so funny how some of you Bulls fans are obviously no older than 10. You are one of those fans.

i used to hate miami fans...but you guys are nothing compared to bulls fans...rose cured cancer by pissing in a toilet..didn't you know that?

mjokc
03-29-2011, 02:01 PM
can we please just lock these articles, I'm so tired of seeing the NBA forum clogged with this *****ing by people about how Rose isn't an MVP or anything else. He carried his team when some of his best players were out. Westbrook I haven't seen him play but has he taken over games at the end like how Rose has been doing?

Westbrook can absolutely take over games, he did in our last game against portland on sunday. He's been a much better 3 point shooter than rose as well, i've been noticing rose going like 0 / 11 in the last 3 games from the three point line. Rose needs to quick chucking them 3s before he gets to durant 3 point chucking level.

shizzle09
03-29-2011, 02:03 PM
i used to hate miami fans...but you guys are nothing compared to bulls fans...rose cured cancer by pissing in a toilet..didn't you know that?

:laugh:

That was great. I needed a good laugh

rapjuicer06
03-29-2011, 02:08 PM
Westbrook can absolutely take over games, he did in our last game against portland on sunday. He's been a much better 3 point shooter than rose as well, i've been noticing rose going like 0 / 11 in the last 3 games from the three point line. Rose needs to quick chucking them 3s before he gets to durant 3 point chucking level.

one thing i'll give rose over westbrook is he has done it by himself the last couples years. he has that advantage over westbrook. westbrook can take over a game, but doesn't have to. rose had to take over games, but now he's shooting way too much. so if the game was on the line, i'd choose rose over westbrook. but i think westbrook is the better team player. so IMO i'd take westbrook over rose. i mean for ****'s sake, rose said he didn't want lebron or wade, westbrook would have welcomed either one of them with open arms because he's a team guy who can alter his game around them while rose only ones how to play one way...and thats ME...

Chronz
03-29-2011, 02:09 PM
Soo many cliches on here I dont even know where to begin

DLeeicious
03-29-2011, 02:16 PM
one thing i'll give rose over westbrook is he has done it by himself the last couples years. he has that advantage over westbrook. westbrook can take over a game, but doesn't have to. rose had to take over games, but now he's shooting way too much. so if the game was on the line, i'd choose rose over westbrook. but i think westbrook is the better team player. so IMO i'd take westbrook over rose. i mean for ****'s sake, rose said he didn't want lebron or wade, westbrook would have welcomed either one of them with open arms because he's a team guy who can alter his game around them while rose only ones how to play one way...and thats ME...

[ ] Rose said he didn't want Wade or Lebron
[ ] Westbrook would welcome either player with open arms and we know this
[ ] Rose isn't a team player
[ ] We know how Westbrook would do on the Bulls or Rose on the Thunder
[X] Westbrook is an awesome player
[X] Rose is an awesome player
[X] You are assuming a lot

TheRunKiller
03-29-2011, 02:21 PM
I would love to see Westbrook try to run a team by himself getting trapped and doubled all game long off the pick & roll, sometimes he gets doubled before the ball crosses midcourt ive seen a lot of Thunder games the other team is way more worried about kevin durant than him. Westbrook gets to play one on one Drose doesn't and rose STILL is putting up better numbers than Westbrook. I would love to see westbrook be the man on a team...He would FAIL!

iggypop123
03-29-2011, 02:22 PM
its a weak year for the mvp. lebron pretty much took himself out of a 3peat by going to miami. when people see his stats they go wow, but then they look closer they realize his teamate averages 1 less point than him.

rapjuicer06
03-29-2011, 02:50 PM
[X] Rose said he didn't want Wade or Lebron
[ ] Westbrook would welcome either player with open arms and we know this
[ ] Rose isn't a team player
[ ] We know how Westbrook would do on the Bulls or Rose on the Thunder
[X] Westbrook is an awesome player
[X] Rose is an awesome player
[X] You are assuming a lot

there was a thread and an article on rose saying that he didn't want either of them. i am assuming the westbrook would welcome a star like wade or lebron mostly because he has one in durant there. rose is not a team player. he's all about himself

Chi City23
03-29-2011, 02:58 PM
there was a thread and an article on rose saying that he didn't want either of them. i am assuming the westbrook would welcome a star like wade or lebron mostly because he has one in durant there. rose is not a team player. he's all about himself

This made me chuckle.. did you not read this article??

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/03/02/roses-text-to-lebron/

mjokc
03-29-2011, 02:59 PM
Um, it has been documented that rose texed lebron and told him that he would love to play with him in chicago... geez, gobbling on rose's **** will not give him the MVP any quicker.

Evolution23
03-29-2011, 03:15 PM
Again if you honestly think westbrook is on roses level than you DO NOT WATCH MANY GAMES!!!! go read wilbons chat today about this article.

Wilbon is an idiot and Rose and Westbrook are similar players. If OKC didn't have Durant then Westbrook would do the same amount of scoring the Rose does.

rapjuicer06
03-29-2011, 03:20 PM
This made me chuckle.. did you not read this article??

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/03/02/roses-text-to-lebron/

what about this one??

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/derrick-rose-doesn%E2%80%99t-want-lebron-james-on-bulls

Chi City23
03-29-2011, 03:32 PM
what about this one??

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/derrick-rose-doesn%E2%80%99t-want-lebron-james-on-bulls

Oh I read that one back in July of 2010 when it came out but I guess you don't keep up with the times lol.. I'll take Rose's word over 'sources' any day.

SoxBearsBulls!
03-29-2011, 03:34 PM
there was a thread and an article on rose saying that he didn't want either of them. i am assuming the westbrook would welcome a star like wade or lebron mostly because he has one in durant there. rose is not a team player. he's all about himself

Ignorant person A listens to ignorant person B and spreads ignorant lies to ignorant masses...thank you Colin Coward.

Super.
03-29-2011, 03:41 PM
I like D12 for MVP :shrug:

blacknell
03-29-2011, 03:54 PM
I'm going with rose for the MVP this year hands down