PDA

View Full Version : The Myth of Kobe's "great" supporting cast



C-Style
03-26-2011, 01:23 PM
1. Pau Gasol - is the legit 2nd option. Nowhere near the All-time great 2nd options(Kobe, Kareem, Big O, Wade, Pippen, Mchale, Magic, etc)Not even top 5, He aint no Dirk, or Wade...But he's been good enough. His stock value went up after coming to L.A, everybody knows that!

2. Lamar Odom - very good player, really inconsistent(except this yr). He will never be a 2nd option. He makes a nice 3rd option or 6th men witch he's doing a great job now.

3. Andrew Bynum - has been playing great but dude has missed a full season the last 3 years...His Finals performances have been weak. His best contributions in the Finals has been allowing Gasol play PF.


4. Ron Artest - I don't even to to explain about his offense...great defensive player, poor 3pt shooter and scorer..every championship team has needed a 3pt shooter who can defend the best perimeter player, Artest is great at 1 thing. I think ppl just see the name and think he's putting up his old numbers. WHO can the Lakers get for him, if they were to trade him tomorrow?

5. Derik Fisher - only thing I can say about fish is that he's clutch but his offense is horrible and a HUGE liability defensibly...but his leadership is much needed. doubt this guys talents get him a starting job for any other team.

6. Role players...Kobe won with Sasha, Farmer, Powell, Luke, Brown, Blake, Barnes...again nothing out of the ordinary there...


They just play so well together... that it makes them look better then they actually are...

ChiSox219
03-26-2011, 01:24 PM
Lakers have the most talent in the league.

Sixerlover
03-26-2011, 01:24 PM
Is it really an argument? He has a great supporting cast that can both play defense and score, and has 3 legit contributing 7'0 players. Let it be, he's a great player on a great team.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
03-26-2011, 01:25 PM
Lakers are a pretty deep team.

Mell413
03-26-2011, 01:25 PM
As the Miz would say: Really?

Bos_Sports4Life
03-26-2011, 01:26 PM
Is it really an argument? He has a great supporting cast that can both play defense and score, and has 3 legit contributing 7'0 players. Let it be, he's a great player on a great team.

:nod:

Chacarron
03-26-2011, 01:28 PM
The Lakers have a lot of talent and are very deep.

Avenged
03-26-2011, 01:35 PM
There is no myth and his team is great without the quotations. They have a very stacked team to the players all the way to the coaching staff. Gasol is a legit #2 and his resume speaks for himself. The greatest #2 option of all-time? NO, but he's great. You know he's for real when a lot of people even take into consideration that he's the #1 option on some nights.

Odom, Bynum, Fisher etc.. may not be stars but they're very good players who benefit under the triangle system and play their role perfectly. Odom is putting up one of his best seasons, and Bynum has begun his emergence while being considered one of the best bigs behind Dwight.

C-Style
03-26-2011, 01:38 PM
They do have talent, they are deep, and are great at what they do!

...But is that team "Sooo stacked and SOOO GREAT" to be little Kobe's accomplishments? NO!

PatsSoxKnicks
03-26-2011, 01:53 PM
You're underrating Gasol. He's easily probably one of the top 3 big men in the game right now (with Dirk and Dwight). I'd say that helps Kobe. He's also 3rd in win shares, ahead of Kobe and 4th in WS/48. He's 10th in PER. Very productive player.

C-Style
03-26-2011, 01:59 PM
You're underrating Gasol. He's easily probably one of the top 3 big men in the game right now (with Dirk and Dwight). I'd say that helps Kobe. He's also 3rd in win shares, ahead of Kobe and 4th in WS/48. He's 10th in PER. Very productive player.

No, not really, care to highlight, where I underrated him?

C-Style
03-26-2011, 02:00 PM
Lakers have the most talent in the league.

Heat say hi!

Flojo
03-26-2011, 02:06 PM
Heat say hi!

Being top heavy does nothing when you don't have a legitimate bench, and hemorrhage when Wade/Lebron/Bosh have bad shooting nights, or can't contribute well. Heat have a great team, but please do not compare them to the Lakers. As many have said, the Lakers are a balanced team. Pau is a legitimate 2nd option, who doesn't NEED to be the best in the league considering the fact that they have another starting forward backing him up in Odom. Lakers are incredibly deep, have a lot of players who complement the system, with a great coaching staff.

J-Relo
03-26-2011, 02:07 PM
Heat say hi!

If Kobe Bryant didn't (doesn't) have a great supporting cast then what did Lebron exactly have during his years in Cleveland? In that way of thinking Lebron had nothing. 0

-Kobe24-TJ19-
03-26-2011, 02:11 PM
The thing is almost all of our guys play good defense.

bringinwood
03-26-2011, 02:11 PM
Kobe has had more talent surrounding him than any other single player in NBA history...

That's no myth...

Without the help, he's an otherwise above average player... He wouldn't be close to the "great" player he's been labeled for a decade...

Niro
03-26-2011, 02:18 PM
No, not really, care to highlight, where I underrated him?

you said he wouldnt be in the same league as dirk
which is false

GeekInThePink
03-26-2011, 02:22 PM
This is the dumbest post I've had the displeasure of reading this year.

Purple&Gold24
03-26-2011, 02:23 PM
But when we had smush,Kwame and etc supporting cast lakers couldnt beat the Suns.

The current team we have=3 finals appearances in a row (maybe 4 :rolleyes: )

This thread is also going to get laker haters or whatever they want to call themselves to call the lakers a deep talented team because they dont want to admit Kobes accomplishments. Basically I see your point your trying to state but your gunna hear the opposite.

thekmp211
03-26-2011, 02:30 PM
Kobe has had more talent surrounding him than any other single player in NBA history...

That's no myth...

Without the help, he's an otherwise above average player... He wouldn't be close to the "great" player he's been labeled for a decade...

:speechless:

no, he just doesn't win as much. kobe is anything but just another above average player. like...i don't even know what to say, thats just preposterous.

it actually makes LESS sense than the original post, and that's pretty ridiculous, too. you don't need to throw kobe's teammates under the bus to make him look good.

JordansBulls
03-26-2011, 02:33 PM
1. Pau Gasol - is the legit 2nd option. Nowhere near the All-time great 2nd options(Kobe, Kareem, Big O, Wade, Pippen, Mchale, Magic, etc)Not even top 5, He aint no Dirk, or Wade...But he's been good enough. His stock value went up after coming to L.A, everybody knows that!

2. Lamar Odom - very good player, really inconsistent(except this yr). He will never be a 2nd option. He makes a nice 3rd option or 6th men witch he's doing a great job now.

3. Andrew Bynum - has been playing great but dude has missed a full season the last 3 years...His Finals performances have been weak. His best contributions in the Finals has been allowing Gasol play PF.


4. Ron Artest - I don't even to to explain about his offense...great defensive player, poor 3pt shooter and scorer..every championship team has needed a 3pt shooter who can defend the best perimeter player, Artest is great at 1 thing. I think ppl just see the name and think he's putting up his old numbers. WHO can the Lakers get for him, if they were to trade him tomorrow?

5. Derik Fisher - only thing I can say about fish is that he's clutch but his offense is horrible and a HUGE liability defensibly...but his leadership is much needed. doubt this guys talents get him a starting job for any other team.

6. Role players...Kobe won with Sasha, Farmer, Powell, Luke, Brown, Blake, Barnes...again nothing out of the ordinary there...


They just play so well together... that it makes them look better then they actually are...

Well the last 3 years Gasol has led the team in Win Shares. And last year led the entire playoffs. When you got another player on your team leading your team in win shares on a legit champion that shows the cast is legit.

tangent12
03-26-2011, 02:35 PM
Riiiiiiiiiiight :laugh: :laugh:

AIRMAR72
03-26-2011, 02:47 PM
Kobe has had more talent surrounding him than any other single player in NBA history...

That's no myth...

Without the help, he's an otherwise above average player... He wouldn't be close to the "great" player he's been labeled for a decade...
i agree with your FACT

TylerSL
03-26-2011, 02:49 PM
Kobe has done great things dont get me wrong, but come on. He has probably the GOAT coach of all time for all 5 of his titles, had PRIME SHAQ who had the most dominate strech ever for 3 of them, and has had two 7 footers in the lane along with a 6'10 backup that are all good in the post to wear teams down for his last 2 titles. I mean if you just look at some of the players and coach Kobe has had.

Phil Jackson
Shaq
Gasol
Bynum
Horry
Odom
Fisher
Glen Rice
Gary Payton
Karl Malone (even tho it was his last year, averaged 13/9)


Just look at that list. Kobe has came up big when it counts and he is clutch, but you cant argue that its just a "myth" that he has had great players. Its accually laughable to try.....

llemon
03-26-2011, 02:50 PM
Heat say hi!

Yeah, Heat bigmen are SCARY

DamnGoat
03-26-2011, 02:50 PM
Heat say hi!
The Heat aren't the most talented team in the league. They have a great trio, but their supporting cast blows.

Believe it or not you do need good role players in the NBA.

M.Bibby2.0
03-26-2011, 03:02 PM
This is hilarious, Lakers are STACKED. Kobe has plenty of help, they won a championship game 7 game where he shot the ball poorly, his supporting cast stepped up. Not to mention this team has what the second highest pay roll in the league? 90 million!? The Lakers are very strong at every position except for point guard, which is fine for their offense.
And Gasol is arguably a top 10 player, and a first option on most teams in the NBA (just look at his play in Memphis).
you're giving Kobe way to much credit, he has a stacked team, and arguably the best Coach in the NBA's history...

Car Ramrod
03-26-2011, 03:08 PM
For years I always thought Phil Jackson was overrated, but a few days ago I was looking at the teams he coached. Not one has ever underachieved and the great players he coached became better every year as well. There have been alot of unreal teams in the league but very few seem to win.

Nothing can be taken away from Kobe but nothing should be taken away from the people he plays with and more so his coach. No player has been on a Phil Jackson and become a worse player. Even when they leave, after they are still better.

Hellcrooner
03-26-2011, 03:39 PM
Pau is obviusly behind Mchale and Pippen in the list of tRUE Second options THAT HAVE NEVER WON A RIGN BEING A FIRST OPTION ( you know? Wade has won a ring as first option, kareem too, magic too, robertson too Kobe too, Shaq too Duncan, and Robinson and so on)

But eh defiently is a top 5 TRUE SECOND option in a ring wining team.
He is also top 10 or top 15 player.
Right now he probably is the Second best second option in the leageu ( im not sure if wade or lebron is the second option in Heat) YES above Sto or Melo whoevver you pick as second option in knicks.

Minimal
03-26-2011, 03:49 PM
This thread deserves a big:facepalm:

Lakers salary cap is the biggest in the nba and they have the most talent and a deep team!

C-Style
03-26-2011, 03:54 PM
Kobe has had more talent surrounding him than any other single player in NBA history...

That's no myth...

Without the help, he's an otherwise above average player... He wouldn't be close to the "great" player he's been labeled for a decade...

Ladies and Gentlemen, This is why the thread was made! proved my point!

JasonJohnHorn
03-26-2011, 03:59 PM
McHale < Gasol.

As for Kareem, when he was on the tail end of his career, he was not as good as Gasol is now, when he was in his prime, he wasnt a second option, he was a first.

Kareem and Magic, Kareem and Big O, those pairings were both two #Ones. Its like saying that Chamberlain was the greatest fifth option of all time because when he played with LA he took a back seat to West, Goodrich and Baylor. Of course Kareem is better than Gasol, he's the all-time leading scorer. But when he was a second or third option in 88/87, Gasol's prime is better than that period of Kareem's career. Magic was always a #1 option. McHale? Seriously? If that guy played on the Nuggets or Kings or CLippers, nobody would even be talking about him. Wade is a #1 option on a champion.

Gasol is an amazing player. He helped a thin Grizzlie team compete and hit the playoffs in the west when it was stronger and deeper than it had ever been. Everybody knew how good he was. It was the same with Garnett in Minny... he carried them for years, only difference is Gasol got out earlier in his career.

I will go on record as saying this: Gasol is as good as Duncan. I am a huge Duncan fan and would say he is the best PF of all time in my book. Gasol is right next to him.

As for Odom, he was the #1 option in Miami and helped them to a playoff push, and he is a great all around talent, espcially for a guy who is 6'11. Artest is NOT there for his O-game, he's there for his defence.

I dont see where you are going with this. Kobe is playing with five guys that could easily be posting All-Star numbers on teams that had them as a second option.

all due respect; saying LA is lacking in talent, or isnt as talented as teams like the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, the Bulls, the 80s Lakes and Celts, its just not true. They could run with any of those teams. They have an amazing 8 man rotation.

JasonJohnHorn
03-26-2011, 04:02 PM
They just play so well together... that it makes them look better then they actually are...

If slightly above average players just play 'well' together and beat more talent teams, that means that those 'talented' teams arent that talented and that the guys who understand the game are better.

You cant get to the finals three straight years by just playing well together, you need a championship calibre roster.

C-Style
03-26-2011, 04:03 PM
Kobe has done great things dont get me wrong, but come on. He has probably the GOAT coach of all time for all 5 of his titles, had PRIME SHAQ who had the most dominate strech ever for 3 of them, and has had two 7 footers in the lane along with a 6'10 backup that are all good in the post to wear teams down for his last 2 titles. I mean if you just look at some of the players and coach Kobe has had.

Phil Jackson
Shaq
Gasol
Bynum
Horry
Odom
Fisher
Glen Rice
Gary Payton
Karl Malone (even tho it was his last year, averaged 13/9)


Just look at that list. Kobe has came up big when it counts and he is clutch, but you cant argue that its just a "myth" that he has had great players. Its accually laughable to try.....


These players were there for Shaq...man i hate seeing this all the time...You guys call Kobe 2nd fiddle. but then turn around and say he had all these players, well weren't those players in Shaqs team not Kobes? make up ur mind!

theheatles
03-26-2011, 04:04 PM
lol lamar odom can go to 5 teams in the league and be the best player hands down...shannon brown and matt barnes can start on half the teams in the league

thekmp211
03-26-2011, 04:05 PM
McHale < Gasol.

As for Kareem, when he was on the tail end of his career, he was not as good as Gasol is now, when he was in his prime, he wasnt a second option, he was a first.

Kareem and Magic, Kareem and Big O, those pairings were both two #Ones. Its like saying that Chamberlain was the greatest fifth option of all time because when he played with LA he took a back seat to West, Goodrich and Baylor. Of course Kareem is better than Gasol, he's the all-time leading scorer. But when he was a second or third option in 88/87, Gasol's prime is better than that period of Kareem's career. Magic was always a #1 option. McHale? Seriously? If that guy played on the Nuggets or Kings or CLippers, nobody would even be talking about him. Wade is a #1 option on a champion.

Gasol is an amazing player. He helped a thin Grizzlie team compete and hit the playoffs in the west when it was stronger and deeper than it had ever been. Everybody knew how good he was. It was the same with Garnett in Minny... he carried them for years, only difference is Gasol got out earlier in his career.

I will go on record as saying this: Gasol is as good as Duncan. I am a huge Duncan fan and would say he is the best PF of all time in my book. Gasol is right next to him.

As for Odom, he was the #1 option in Miami and helped them to a playoff push, and he is a great all around talent, espcially for a guy who is 6'11. Artest is NOT there for his O-game, he's there for his defence.

I dont see where you are going with this. Kobe is playing with five guys that could easily be posting All-Star numbers on teams that had them as a second option.

all due respect; saying LA is lacking in talent, or isnt as talented as teams like the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, the Bulls, the 80s Lakes and Celts, its just not true. They could run with any of those teams. They have an amazing 8 man rotation.

slow down there, tiger. i like gasol as much as anyone, but he isn't on the level of kg and duncan. different class of player.

C-Style
03-26-2011, 04:10 PM
Being top heavy does nothing when you don't have a legitimate bench, and hemorrhage when Wade/Lebron/Bosh have bad shooting nights, or can't contribute well. Heat have a great team, but please do not compare them to the Lakers. As many have said, the Lakers are a balanced team. Pau is a legitimate 2nd option, who doesn't NEED to be the best in the league considering the fact that they have another starting forward backing him up in Odom. Lakers are incredibly deep, have a lot of players who complement the system, with a great coaching staff.

Lebron>Kobe
Wade>Gasol
Bosh>Odom

after that Lakers just have...Artest, Fisher and a bunch of role players.

Mike Miller and Haslem have about the same impact as Artest and Fish...

Storch
03-26-2011, 04:11 PM
The Lakers are a talented and deep team with a great supporting cast. The argument that is more suitable with this topic is that Kobe doesn't have the superstars other teams have had in the past.

C-Style
03-26-2011, 04:12 PM
lol lamar odom can go to 5 teams in the league and be the best player hands down...shannon brown and matt barnes can start on half the teams in the league

Name them, cause he was with the Lakers for 4 years trying to be molded into a 2nd option for Kobe but failed. Siddenly Shannon can start where was he before he went to the Lakers??? could he start then, maybe he's just playing good cause he found his role and is very comfortable with it? and yes maybe both can start but they can also come off the bench for a lot of teams.

Hellcrooner
03-26-2011, 04:26 PM
McHale < Gasol.

As for Kareem, when he was on the tail end of his career, he was not as good as Gasol is now, when he was in his prime, he wasnt a second option, he was a first.

Kareem and Magic, Kareem and Big O, those pairings were both two #Ones. Its like saying that Chamberlain was the greatest fifth option of all time because when he played with LA he took a back seat to West, Goodrich and Baylor. Of course Kareem is better than Gasol, he's the all-time leading scorer. But when he was a second or third option in 88/87, Gasol's prime is better than that period of Kareem's career. Magic was always a #1 option. McHale? Seriously? If that guy played on the Nuggets or Kings or CLippers, nobody would even be talking about him. Wade is a #1 option on a champion.

Gasol is an amazing player. He helped a thin Grizzlie team compete and hit the playoffs in the west when it was stronger and deeper than it had ever been. Everybody knew how good he was. It was the same with Garnett in Minny... he carried them for years, only difference is Gasol got out earlier in his career.

I will go on record as saying this: Gasol is as good as Duncan. I am a huge Duncan fan and would say he is the best PF of all time in my book. Gasol is right next to him.

As for Odom, he was the #1 option in Miami and helped them to a playoff push, and he is a great all around talent, espcially for a guy who is 6'11. Artest is NOT there for his O-game, he's there for his defence.

I dont see where you are going with this. Kobe is playing with five guys that could easily be posting All-Star numbers on teams that had them as a second option.

all due respect; saying LA is lacking in talent, or isnt as talented as teams like the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, the Bulls, the 80s Lakes and Celts, its just not true. They could run with any of those teams. They have an amazing 8 man rotation.

you are going too far.

Gasol IS NOT as good as Duncan, Duncan is the best PF ever.
GASOL is just top 10 pf ever maybe with some more rings he reacehs to top 6 or something like that.

And Mchale WAS better than Gasol.

hugepatsfan
03-26-2011, 04:29 PM
I think the OP needs to pull his head out of Kobe's ***.

footballer2369
03-26-2011, 04:29 PM
Lebron>Kobe
Wade>Gasol
Bosh>Odom

after that Lakers just have...Artest, Fisher and a bunch of role players.

Mike Miller and Haslem have about the same impact as Artest and Fish...

Ok, no doubt. And you will see their superiority in the Finals this year...

magic0320
03-26-2011, 04:30 PM
lol lamar odom can go to 5 teams in the league and be the best player hands down...shannon brown and matt barnes can start on half the teams in the league


Odom will disappear more than half of season as 2nd option just look at his first 3-4 years with lakers.

and brown didn't play at all until he came to Lakers.

just because they have been doing well that don't mean they are great palyers.:facepalm:

theheatles
03-26-2011, 04:30 PM
lamar can go to the kings, cavs, washington, toronto and minnesota and be the best player...and i'm talking about 2day cuz tyreke and wall can be better and kevin love def is not...if u think kevin love is better than odom than lol at u

ManRam
03-26-2011, 04:32 PM
There's a better way to go about this argument then how you did it...but either way, it's a pretty worthless process. The Lakers cast has everything you want for a Kobe and Phil-led triangle offense-oriented team.

Bruno
03-26-2011, 04:39 PM
Well the last 3 years Gasol has led the team in Win Shares. And last year led the entire playoffs. When you got another player on your team leading your team in win shares on a legit champion that shows the cast is legit.

Agreed, Pau has shown his worth in the playoffs when it has mattered most, and he still probably doesn't get enough credit for what he's contributed to the Lakers. Teams are capable of winning back-to-back rings, or developing into dynasties, or mini-dynasties when they have a "second option" as talented as Gasol.

Young Kobe Bryant serves as another example of that. During the 2001 playoffs he posted a PER of 25.0, and a WS of 3.8 as a 22 year old. His playoff WS of 3.8 led the league for the 2001 post-season; the Lakers went 15-1 on the way to the title.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

PrestigeWldWde
03-26-2011, 04:53 PM
As the Miz would say: Really?

That's because the Miz is a tool.

Crackadalic
03-26-2011, 05:02 PM
That team is pretty much stack

Law25
03-26-2011, 05:05 PM
Agreed, Pau has shown his worth in the playoffs when it has mattered most, and he still probably doesn't get enough credit for what he's contributed to the Lakers. Teams are capable of winning back-to-back rings, or developing into dynasties, or mini-dynasties when they have a "second option" as talented as Gasol.

Young Kobe Bryant serves as another example of that. During the 2001 playoffs he posted a PER of 25.0, and a WS of 3.8 as a 22 year old. His playoff WS of 3.8 led the league for the 2001 post-season; the Lakers went 15-1 on the way to the title.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

:clap:

Hawkeye15
03-26-2011, 05:13 PM
Kobe and Duncan have played with more talent over their careers, consistently, than any other "star" of this generation, and that isn't debateable in the slightest.

Great players need great casts to win rings. What a difficult concept to understand for some people.

Sportfan
03-26-2011, 05:21 PM
Replace the "best player in the league" Kobe Bryant with a decent guard. (Let's just use Tyreke Evans for all intent and purposed) They would still be with ease playoff team. Probably a top 4 seed
Reke/Brown/Artest/Gasol/Bynum with Odom off the bench as point forward, Barnes, Fisher, and Blake is a very strong team

-Kobe24-TJ19-
03-26-2011, 05:35 PM
Replace the "best player in the league" Kobe Bryant with a decent guard. (Let's just use Tyreke Evans for all intent and purposed) They would still be with ease playoff team. Probably a top 4 seed
Reke/Brown/Artest/Gasol/Bynum with Odom off the bench as point forward, Barnes, Fisher, and Blake is a very strong team

Basically with reke lakers get 4 more losses....nah not gonna happen

rabueed
03-26-2011, 05:42 PM
Kobe and Duncan have played with more talent over their careers, consistently, than any other "star" of this generation, and that isn't debateable in the slightest.

Great players need great casts to win rings. What a difficult concept to understand for some people.

Love it :clap:

Hawkeye15
03-26-2011, 05:48 PM
Love it :clap:

seriously. Its not a criticism to Kobe for instance. Every star in history needed a great cast. It should also not be used against him, when talking about his legacy. "Oh, well Kobe had all the help in the world, so he is overrated". Cry me a damn river, so what?

Some try and use it to rate Kobe or Tim higher than they should be, some try and use it to bring them down. Fact is, great players need great rosters. Period. Its been that way for 60 years

DODGERS&LAKERS
03-26-2011, 05:54 PM
I don't get it. Are you a Kobe fan, or a Laker fan? of course they have great talent. They have the best front court in the league, and it will show come playoff time. That does not take away from Kobe. In fact, they're gonna need Kobe to be great, to even have a chance at winning a championship this year. Everyone is going to have to play great. That's why he needs a good supporting cast. This isn't the 90's, where you only have at the most 2 star players on 1 team. The upper echelon teams are stacked. So if you are worried about Kobe's legacy, you better hope his supporting cast is up to the challenge

Hawkeye15
03-26-2011, 05:55 PM
I don't get it. Are you a Kobe fan, or a Laker fan? of course they have great talent. They have the best front court in the league, and it will show come playoff time. That does not take away from Kobe. In fact, they're gonna need Kobe to beat great, to even have a chance at winning a championship this year. Everyone is going to have to play great, that's why he need to supporting cast. This isn't the 90's, where you only have at the most 2 star players on 1 team. The upper echelon teams are stacked. So if you are worried about Kobe's legacy, you better hope his supporting cast is up to the challenge

perfectly put

PurpleJesus
03-26-2011, 06:13 PM
this guy really think that odom, bynum, artest, pau and others really arent a great supporting cast? They are one of the biggest, and most athletic teams in the league. So much beef up front with pau, odom and bynum

TylerSL
03-26-2011, 06:20 PM
These players were there for Shaq...man i hate seeing this all the time...You guys call Kobe 2nd fiddle. but then turn around and say he had all these players, well weren't those players in Shaqs team not Kobes? make up ur mind!

last time I checked they were/are great players and they were/are on the same team as Kobe. EVen tho at the time he was 2nd fiddle, doesnt mean he didnt greatness around him :facepalm:

TylerSL
03-26-2011, 06:24 PM
OP your just embarrassing yourself trying to even say Kobe hasnt had greatness around him..... Whoever said Kobe and Duncan had the greatest players around them this decade hit the nail right on the head. Kobe being the 1st and Duncan being the 2nd.

drobe86
03-26-2011, 06:24 PM
seriously. Its not a criticism to Kobe for instance. Every star in history needed a great cast. It should also not be used against him, when talking about his legacy. "Oh, well Kobe had all the help in the world, so he is overrated". Cry me a damn river, so what?

Some try and use it to rate Kobe or Tim higher than they should be, some try and use it to bring them down. Fact is, great players need great rosters. Period. Its been that way for 60 years

I disagree with this. That 06 Miami team didn't have a great roster. Far from it actually.... Wade and 12 journeyman nba players. Shaq was ok but had declined at that point. Or even Jordans bulls. Those teams had Jordan, Scottie and a bunch of journeyman after that. Rodman brought rebounding but nothing else. That's just the 2000's and the 90's. I'm sure there were more teams that won championships in previous decades that didn't have great rosters. Hell Wilt won a title, and I know for a fact his roster wasn't great. Same with Oscar Robertson

lakeshow3peat
03-26-2011, 06:25 PM
Yes Kobe has been blessed with a great group of stars and supporting cast but that doesnt make him overrated for it . The lakers need the supporting cast just as much as the Lakers need Kobe .

drobe86
03-26-2011, 06:31 PM
Kobes a really good player that gets credit for being great. People want somebody to better than Jordan so bad, that they just cling to the hottest thing. And that's just what Kobe was, and what Lebron is.... The fact is neither of these guys could hold a candle to Jordan, Magic, or even some of the greats that played in 80's and 90's.... Sure Kobe can score 81 points and etc. But he wouldn't have done that back in the day. They actually played DEFENSE. Like Scottie said, If Jordan played in this era he could average 50 a game, and score 100 MULTIPLE times. People have to realize that very few teams play Defense....

Jewelz0376
03-26-2011, 06:38 PM
Kobe has a great team no doubt...You can win titles in this league unless you have a great team... I understand the point the op is trying to make too... Some posters on here like to almost diminish last 2 titles, by insisting the team is loaded and implying that plenty of other players could have won in his place...

I've even heard some posters say that Gasol is more valuable to the lakers than Kobe :rolleyes:

numba1CHANGsta
03-26-2011, 06:40 PM
They may not have the best supporting cast in history, but they do have a lot of talent and when u surround talent around Kobe, u can expect championships ;)

-Kobe24-TJ19-
03-26-2011, 06:40 PM
Kobes a really good player that gets credit for being great. People want somebody to better than Jordan so bad, that they just cling to the hottest thing. And that's just what Kobe was, and what Lebron is.... The fact is neither of these guys could hold a candle to Jordan, Magic, or even some of the greats that played in 80's and 90's.... Sure Kobe can score 81 points and etc. But he wouldn't have done that back in the day. They actually played DEFENSE. Like Scottie said, If Jordan played in this era he could average 50 a game, and score 100 MULTIPLE times. People have to realize that very few teams play Defense....

:laugh2:

Fnom11
03-26-2011, 06:44 PM
The only way this team would be better is a younger more athletic non egotistic SG. Basically a young 3rd/4th yr Kobe and they would never lose. I really don't see how you can't notice him ruining your offense almost every other offensive set.

And if Artest could make a shot, or a dunk for that matter.

Jewelz0376
03-26-2011, 06:48 PM
The only way this team would be better is a younger more athletic non egotistic SG. Basically a young 3rd/4th yr Kobe and they would never lose. I really don't see how you can't notice him ruining your offense almost every other offensive set.

And if Artest could make a shot, or a dunk for that matter.

We got coach Fnom up on psd yall!!...lol why don't you email Phil and telling him how to fix his offense...(even though he's been to 3 straight finals with this "egotistic sg")

Fnom11
03-26-2011, 06:51 PM
We got coach Fnom up on psd yall!!...lol why don't you email Phil and telling him how to fix his offense...(even though he's been to 3 straight finals with this "egotistic sg")

Just goes to show you how good his supporting cast is. I'm not saying he's bad, but all I've seen this season is him hurting your team when he goes rogue instead of his old self where he'd dominate when he went rogue. Like the only team it truly benefited your team was a couple of nights ago.

That's my opinion though. You can take it how you want to.

Purple&Gold24
03-26-2011, 07:17 PM
Agreed, Pau has shown his worth in the playoffs when it has mattered most, and he still probably doesn't get enough credit for what he's contributed to the Lakers. Teams are capable of winning back-to-back rings, or developing into dynasties, or mini-dynasties when they have a "second option" as talented as Gasol.

Young Kobe Bryant serves as another example of that. During the 2001 playoffs he posted a PER of 25.0, and a WS of 3.8 as a 22 year old. His playoff WS of 3.8 led the league for the 2001 post-season; the Lakers went 15-1 on the way to the title.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

This +1. Bruno knows when The Jello is Jiggling

Purple&Gold24
03-26-2011, 07:19 PM
Just goes to show you how good his supporting cast is. I'm not saying he's bad, but all I've seen this season is him hurting your team when he goes rogue instead of his old self where he'd dominate when he went rogue. Like the only team it truly benefited your team was a couple of nights ago.

That's my opinion though. You can take it how you want to.

So if eric coached the lakers we would be bettter? :shrug:

I don't think Phil hurt the team at all, the players just werent meshing and didnt really take the first part of the season seriously. But we shall see when playoffs come.

Purple&Gold24
03-26-2011, 07:24 PM
Kobes a really good player that gets credit for being great. People want somebody to better than Jordan so bad, that they just cling to the hottest thing. And that's just what Kobe was, and what Lebron is.... The fact is neither of these guys could hold a candle to Jordan, Magic, or even some of the greats that played in 80's and 90's.... Sure Kobe can score 81 points and etc. But he wouldn't have done that back in the day. They actually played DEFENSE. Like Scottie said, If Jordan played in this era he could average 50 a game, and score 100 MULTIPLE times. People have to realize that very few teams play Defense....

lol but im sure if kobe wanted to he can score 100 MULTIPLE times. But when he scores 50 points or so people like you(or kobe haters or w.e they want to call themselves) criticize him.

nickdymez
03-26-2011, 07:28 PM
Kobe has had more talent surrounding him than any other single player in NBA history...

That's no myth...

Without the help, he's an otherwise above average player... He wouldn't be close to the "great" player he's been labeled for a decade...

You should kill yourself

Fnom11
03-26-2011, 07:49 PM
So if eric coached the lakers we would be bettter? :shrug:

I don't think Phil hurt the team at all, the players just werent meshing and didnt really take the first part of the season seriously. But we shall see when playoffs come.

Spos a pretty bad/inexperienced coach. Phils definitely an amazing coach and I'm not saying that's on him, I'm saying that's on Kobe. I don't think he should be the first option he's trying so desperately to be.

masalex1205
03-26-2011, 08:11 PM
1. Pau Gasol - is the legit 2nd option. Nowhere near the All-time great 2nd options(Kobe, Kareem, Big O, Wade, Pippen, Mchale, Magic, etc)Not even top 5, He aint no Dirk, or Wade...But he's been good enough. His stock value went up after coming to L.A, everybody knows that!

2. Lamar Odom - very good player, really inconsistent(except this yr). He will never be a 2nd option. He makes a nice 3rd option or 6th men witch he's doing a great job now.

3. Andrew Bynum - has been playing great but dude has missed a full season the last 3 years...His Finals performances have been weak. His best contributions in the Finals has been allowing Gasol play PF.


4. Ron Artest - I don't even to to explain about his offense...great defensive player, poor 3pt shooter and scorer..every championship team has needed a 3pt shooter who can defend the best perimeter player, Artest is great at 1 thing. I think ppl just see the name and think he's putting up his old numbers. WHO can the Lakers get for him, if they were to trade him tomorrow?

5. Derik Fisher - only thing I can say about fish is that he's clutch but his offense is horrible and a HUGE liability defensibly...but his leadership is much needed. doubt this guys talents get him a starting job for any other team.

6. Role players...Kobe won with Sasha, Farmer, Powell, Luke, Brown, Blake, Barnes...again nothing out of the ordinary there...


They just play so well together... that it makes them look better then they actually are...

:facepalm: dumb post of the year

masalex1205
03-26-2011, 08:12 PM
Kobe wouldn't have his last ring if it wasn't for his supporting cast, he sucked in game 7 but nobody talks about that

Bruno
03-26-2011, 08:35 PM
Kobe and Duncan have played with more talent over their careers, consistently, than any other "star" of this generation, and that isn't debateable in the slightest.

Great players need great casts to win rings. What a difficult concept to understand for some people.

Totally. I might put Nash into the discussion as well, but certainly not in-front of Bryant or Duncan. Nash has played with prime Dirk, Amare, Marion, Joe Johnson, Barbosa, Finley, Jamison, Josh Howard. Not too shabby.


I don't get it. Are you a Kobe fan, or a Laker fan? of course they have great talent. They have the best front court in the league, and it will show come playoff time. That does not take away from Kobe. In fact, they're gonna need Kobe to be great, to even have a chance at winning a championship this year. Everyone is going to have to play great. That's why he needs a good supporting cast. This isn't the 90's, where you only have at the most 2 star players on 1 team. The upper echelon teams are stacked. So if you are worried about Kobe's legacy, you better hope his supporting cast is up to the challenge

:clap: Really wish you'd visit the Lakers forum more often D&L.

Bruno
03-26-2011, 08:37 PM
Kobe wouldn't have his last ring if it wasn't for his supporting cast, he sucked in game 7 but nobody talks about that

His shooting touch was terrible. His all around game wasn't. He pulled down 15 rebounds in a series where the winner of the glass won every game. The 6'6 SG pulled down more rebounds than the Celtics starting C, PF, and SG combined when it mattered most.

theheatles
03-26-2011, 09:08 PM
I disagree with this. That 06 Miami team didn't have a great roster. Far from it actually.... Wade and 12 journeyman nba players. Shaq was ok but had declined at that point. Or even Jordans bulls. Those teams had Jordan, Scottie and a bunch of journeyman after that. Rodman brought rebounding but nothing else. That's just the 2000's and the 90's. I'm sure there were more teams that won championships in previous decades that didn't have great rosters. Hell Wilt won a title, and I know for a fact his roster wasn't great. Same with Oscar Robertson

this is pure ignorance thinking the miami 06 team didn't have a great roster...
PG Jason Williams
SG Wade
SF Antoine Walker
PF Haslem
C Shaq

6th man alonzo mourning (best defensive center in the league that yr)
posey- best wing defender on heat and 1 of the best in league
gary payton- the glove, past his prime obv but still effective

dodie53
03-26-2011, 09:14 PM
really?
kobe doesn't have anyone?
cmon

AIRMAR72
03-26-2011, 09:16 PM
Kobes a really good player that gets credit for being great. People want somebody to better than Jordan so bad, that they just cling to the hottest thing. And that's just what Kobe was, and what Lebron is.... The fact is neither of these guys could hold a candle to Jordan, Magic, or even some of the greats that played in 80's and 90's.... Sure Kobe can score 81 points and etc. But he wouldn't have done that back in the day. They actually played DEFENSE. Like Scottie said, If Jordan played in this era he could average 50 a game, and score 100 MULTIPLE times. People have to realize that very few teams play Defense....

I agree atleast you telling the truth too bad today youngster NEVER had the chance to see MJ play beside chopped u tube footage which really dont tell or show how much of incredible player jordan used to be i personaly respect david robinson 75 points over kobe 81... mr robinson had to earn every point while kobe was allowed a free pass to drive in da lane and open jumpshots from da raptors who till this cant play D but there BETTER now compare to the team that kobe destroyed

Bruno
03-26-2011, 09:42 PM
I agree atleast you telling the truth too bad today youngster NEVER had the chance to see MJ play beside chopped u tube footage which really dont tell or show how much of incredible player jordan used to be i personaly respect david robinson 75 points over kobe 81... mr robinson had to earn every point while kobe was allowed a free pass to drive in da lane and open jumpshots from da raptors who till this cant play D but there BETTER now compare to the team that kobe destroyed

Robinson dropped 71, not 75.

Box Score: http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199404240LAC.html
Video Footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRB4qIzDXy0&feature=related

The fact that you had to go back 12 years to find another game that you "respected" more than Bryants 81 shows how special shooting night he had on that January day.

I also disagree with your assessment of the '94 Clippers defensive prowess. The Clippers were DEAD LAST (27/27) in points allowed per game during the 1994 NBA season. Their defensive rating of 108.6 was good enough for 18th (out of 27) that year.

'94 Clippers Statistics: http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAC/1994.html

Were the Raptors a terrible defensive team in 2006? Absolutely. But if we're being fair, the '94 Clippers were terrible as well. I know you don't like Kobe, but surly you can find betters ways to discredit him.

THE MTL
03-26-2011, 09:47 PM
1. Pau Gasol - is the legit 2nd option. Nowhere near the All-time great 2nd options(Kobe, Kareem, Big O, Wade, Pippen, Mchale, Magic, etc)Not even top 5, He aint no Dirk, or Wade...But he's been good enough. His stock value went up after coming to L.A, everybody knows that!

2. Lamar Odom - very good player, really inconsistent(except this yr). He will never be a 2nd option. He makes a nice 3rd option or 6th men witch he's doing a great job now.

3. Andrew Bynum - has been playing great but dude has missed a full season the last 3 years...His Finals performances have been weak. His best contributions in the Finals has been allowing Gasol play PF.


4. Ron Artest - I don't even to to explain about his offense...great defensive player, poor 3pt shooter and scorer..every championship team has needed a 3pt shooter who can defend the best perimeter player, Artest is great at 1 thing. I think ppl just see the name and think he's putting up his old numbers. WHO can the Lakers get for him, if they were to trade him tomorrow?

5. Derik Fisher - only thing I can say about fish is that he's clutch but his offense is horrible and a HUGE liability defensibly...but his leadership is much needed. doubt this guys talents get him a starting job for any other team.

6. Role players...Kobe won with Sasha, Farmer, Powell, Luke, Brown, Blake, Barnes...again nothing out of the ordinary there...


They just play so well together... that it makes them look better then they actually are...

When a player of Lamar Odom's caliber can be ur FOURTH OPTION on offense. Thats when u have a stacked team.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2011, 10:32 PM
I disagree with this. That 06 Miami team didn't have a great roster. Far from it actually.... Wade and 12 journeyman nba players. Shaq was ok but had declined at that point. Or even Jordans bulls. Those teams had Jordan, Scottie and a bunch of journeyman after that. Rodman brought rebounding but nothing else. That's just the 2000's and the 90's. I'm sure there were more teams that won championships in previous decades that didn't have great rosters. Hell Wilt won a title, and I know for a fact his roster wasn't great. Same with Oscar Robertson

false

You don't need to have the most stacked team in the NBA to win a ring necessarily. The Heat also played everyone while they were dealing with injuries, and had a declined, yet dominant Shaq who was the complete focal point of the defense still at that point of his career. A top 10 offensive and defensive team in the regular season, who got hot in the playoffs. White Chocolate, Toine' (as overrated as his career was, he was still a good player here), Haslem, Posey, Zo', and more depth. They had a very capable roster with good players and depth at every position

The Bulls had journeymen? haha

BigCityofDreams
03-26-2011, 10:45 PM
Kobes a really good player that gets credit for being great. People want somebody to better than Jordan so bad, that they just cling to the hottest thing. And that's just what Kobe was, and what Lebron is.... The fact is neither of these guys could hold a candle to Jordan, Magic, or even some of the greats that played in 80's and 90's.... Sure Kobe can score 81 points and etc. But he wouldn't have done that back in the day. They actually played DEFENSE. Like Scottie said, If Jordan played in this era he could average 50 a game, and score 100 MULTIPLE times. People have to realize that very few teams play Defense....

Kobe could have played in any era. His talent isn't confined to this one.

This is the Babe Ruth argument all over again. But I shouldn't be surprised Wilt said the same thing about Jordan's era of basketball.

FuriousJatt
03-26-2011, 10:47 PM
This thread deserves a big:facepalm:

Lakers salary cap is the biggest in the nba and they have the most talent and a deep team!

having the biggest salary cap in the league doesnt mean anything... if the money isnt spent well... ask new york and dallas.

the lakers might not have the "most talented" players at every positin but they the best talented in the system they have. you dont need wade, u need gasol as a 2nd option. you dont need c paul, you need a veteran leader like fish.

goose15
03-26-2011, 10:48 PM
I love the L.A. Lakers

drobe86
03-26-2011, 11:31 PM
this is pure ignorance thinking the miami 06 team didn't have a great roster...
PG Jason Williams
SG Wade
SF Antoine Walker
PF Haslem
C Shaq

6th man alonzo mourning (best defensive center in the league that yr)
posey- best wing defender on heat and 1 of the best in league
gary payton- the glove, past his prime obv but still effective


REally? Jason Williams is a journeyman... Antoine Walker is in the D League, and Shaq Payton and Mourning were all past their primes. Posey is ok, but you make him out to be like he's really good. That roster was far from great... Probably the worst roster to ever win a championship if we were to go back and look at all of them.

drobe86
03-26-2011, 11:34 PM
false

You don't need to have the most stacked team in the NBA to win a ring necessarily. The Heat also played everyone while they were dealing with injuries, and had a declined, yet dominant Shaq who was the complete focal point of the defense still at that point of his career. A top 10 offensive and defensive team in the regular season, who got hot in the playoffs. White Chocolate, Toine' (as overrated as his career was, he was still a good player here), Haslem, Posey, Zo', and more depth. They had a very capable roster with good players and depth at every position

The Bulls had journeymen? haha

Hawkeye listen to the names you're sputing off. Alonzo mourning had 1 kidney at that time.... Jason Williams is not and hasn't EVER been good. He was flashy but flashy and good are 2 different things. And seriously Antione Walker? Dudes in the D League lol....

hugepatsfan
03-26-2011, 11:35 PM
MIA's roster to me wasn't a great team at all. I mean, they were good and had a lot of solid players. But I don't think that roster really would be at all a title favorite today.

The Jokemaker
03-26-2011, 11:41 PM
I think he has a good supporting cast but agree they're not the best thing ever. The team has the perfect complementary pieces for Kobe and it meshes together very well. It's a combination of talent level, coaching, and Kobe just making them better.

nickdymez
03-26-2011, 11:48 PM
Kobe wouldn't have his last ring if it wasn't for his supporting cast, he sucked in game 7 but nobody talks about that

He shot bad yes, but he grabbed 15 boards and had like 6 assists... And he had a bad game once?

theheatles
03-27-2011, 12:03 AM
REally? Jason Williams is a journeyman... Antoine Walker is in the D League, and Shaq Payton and Mourning were all past their primes. Posey is ok, but you make him out to be like he's really good. That roster was far from great... Probably the worst roster to ever win a championship if we were to go back and look at all of them.

Antoine should be retired but he's trying to get back in the league to make some money because he went bankrupt, jason williams was a solid nba pg, alonzo was a defensive stud still at that age, shaq lost a step but was clearly dominate when he had to be, james posey is a great defender, when the celtics won the ship in 08 james posey was their best perimeter defender and payton is a top 10 best pg of all time so coming off the bench he was a big asset and of course DWYANE WADE!.. and i would say the heat were better than the pistons from 03-04

F*(&"Next Year"
03-27-2011, 12:11 AM
sorry but we saw in in the years betweeen the shaq era and the pau era that kobe cant single handedly win a chapionship for the lakers,. he needs a legitiamte second option.

Vidball
03-27-2011, 01:02 AM
Kobe wouldn't have his last ring if it wasn't for his supporting cast, he sucked in game 7 but nobody talks about that

Haha...love the selective memory. That was one of the greatest defensive games ever and it was won (as was the rest of that series) by rebounding. Only one Laker (and only one Celtic for that matter) shot over 50% in that defensive game. Kobe led all players in points and defensive rebounds. He had 5 more rebounds than any Celtic had that game (he also had more rebounds than the combined total of the C's starting SG, PF, and C). The only Laker getting any open looks was Artest because of the double's being drawn on Kobe. He almost BLEW the game though...lol. Keep hating the greatest player of this generation. I know you're sick of him making it to the Finals every year, but just sit back and appreciate him on his way to his 6th ring.

knightstemplar
03-27-2011, 01:05 AM
sorry but we saw in in the years betweeen the shaq era and the pau era that kobe cant single handedly win a chapionship for the lakers,. he needs a legitiamte second option.


lol and anybody else can

Vidball
03-27-2011, 01:15 AM
Has any player ever taken a weaker supporting cast to 3 straight Finals?

TylerSL
03-27-2011, 01:59 AM
REally? Jason Williams is a journeyman... Antoine Walker is in the D League, and Shaq Payton and Mourning were all past their primes. Posey is ok, but you make him out to be like he's really good. That roster was far from great... Probably the worst roster to ever win a championship if we were to go back and look at all of them.

LOL. Were to begin

1. Jason Williams is a journeyman NOW, but 5 years ago, not so much. That year he averaged 12 points, 5 assists, and shot .372 from 3.

2. Walker is fat and old NOW, but Riley was coach, so he was in shape. 5 years can make a BIG difference in a player. Averaged 12 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, and shot .358 from 3.

3. Shaq was past his prime but you act like he wasnt affective. He was still top 3 center. Last time I checked 23.5 points, 11 rebounds, and 2 blocks per game was dominate........

4. Zo averaged 8 points, 5.5 rebounds, and 3 blocks per game in 20 minutes per game........

5. Payton still averaged 8 points a game and 1 steal. Not great, but provided good production off the bench.

6. Posey is ok? He is ok now, but again 5 years ago is alot of difference. Posey was on of the best perimeter defenders in the league that year, and I think he lead the league in charges taken that year. He was a great on the defensive end and still averaged 7 points, 5 boards, and shot .403 from deep.....

your post fails in almost every way.......

TylerSL
03-27-2011, 02:08 AM
Hawkeye listen to the names you're sputing off. Alonzo mourning had 1 kidney at that time.... Jason Williams is not and hasn't EVER been good. He was flashy but flashy and good are 2 different things. And seriously Antione Walker? Dudes in the D League lol....

after reading both of your posts dissing the 06 team, I would say your still a little bit mad about losing in 06...... Zo having 1 kidney did not stop him from averaging 14/10/5 (points/rebounds/blocks) per 36 minutes that year did it? LOL sig worthy when you say Jay Will wasnt that good. You must not have watched him play ever, and I am not just talking about him being flashy. He averaged 10.5 points, and 6 assists per game for a career in 29 min. per game..... LOL Walker was good 5 years ago, he is in the D-League now cuz he is old, fat, and gambled all his money away. Does that mean he was fat, old, and poor 5 years ago? If you think so you need to ban yourself.....

iggypop123
03-27-2011, 02:09 AM
op youd have a better argument if you argued about the myth that kobe gets calls. those days are over today. he gets disrespect instead.

TylerSL
03-27-2011, 02:10 AM
MIA's roster to me wasn't a great team at all. I mean, they were good and had a lot of solid players. But I don't think that roster really would be at all a title favorite today.

It wasnt a GREAT roster, but it was very good and they had solid players at every position and had AMAZING team Chemistry and was coached by Riley. Its just frustrating having some Mavs fan talk about how bad they were.... If they were soo bad, the Mavs would have won....... Also that Heat team wouldnt be title favorites this year because the league is stronger, but they were not known as title favorites that year either as everybody acted like either the Mavs, Pistons, or Spurs would win that year.....

TylerSL
03-27-2011, 02:14 AM
Has any player ever taken a weaker supporting cast to 3 straight Finals?

You're not calling the Lakers supporting cast weak are you??

AIRMAR72
03-27-2011, 02:20 AM
LOL. Were to begin

1. Jason Williams is a journeyman NOW, but 5 years ago, not so much. That year he averaged 12 points, 5 assists, and shot .372 from 3.

2. Walker is fat and old NOW, but Riley was coach, so he was in shape. 5 years can make a BIG difference in a player. Averaged 12 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, and shot .358 from 3.

3. Shaq was past his prime but you act like he wasnt affective. He was still top 3 center. Last time I checked 23.5 points, 11 rebounds, and 2 blocks per game was dominate........

4. Zo averaged 8 points, 5.5 rebounds, and 3 blocks per game in 20 minutes per game........

5. Payton still averaged 8 points a game and 1 steal. Not great, but provided good production off the bench.

6. Posey is ok? He is ok now, but again 5 years ago is alot of difference. Posey was on of the best perimeter defenders in the league that year, and I think he lead the league in charges taken that year. He was a great on the defensive end and still averaged 7 points, 5 boards, and shot .403 from deep.....

your post fails in almost every way.......

yup i agree wade team was the worst along with da dream rockects that ive seen to win a championship shaq did nothing but took up space and mis FT plus shaq was finish after laker 3rd ring when he got da heat along with gary and zo they were FINISH wade did all da work finding teamates for easy shots wade made posey finding him for open 3....posey also help boston defeating da lakers knocking down open3

TylerSL
03-27-2011, 02:29 AM
yup i agree wade team was the worst along with da dream rockects that ive seen to win a championship shaq did nothing but took up space and mis FT plus shaq was finish after laker 3rd ring when he got da heat along with gary and zo they were FINISH wade did all da work finding teamates for easy shots wade made posey finding him for open 3....posey also help boston defeating da lakers knocking down open3

seriously? You say Shaq was finished.... He averaged 23.5/11/2 with the Heat that season, he was still a top 3 center and still dominate.... Payton was pretty finished yea, just a role player off the bench, but Zo averaged 8/5.5/3 in 20 mpg that season.... Shaq did only average 14 points in the Finals, but he shot 61% from the field, so I would argue he didnt shoot many times because of the low points, but high FG%. He also aveaged 11 boards and 1 block a game. Thats not doing nothing. Wade did a good deal of work, but you have to have help to win a title...... Im not gonna act like they were some GREAT team, but they were not bad at all, they had solid players everywhere, AMAZING team chemistry, and had Riley as coach.

Hawkeye15
03-27-2011, 02:31 AM
Hawkeye listen to the names you're sputing off. Alonzo mourning had 1 kidney at that time.... Jason Williams is not and hasn't EVER been good. He was flashy but flashy and good are 2 different things. And seriously Antione Walker? Dudes in the D League lol....

and look at the production those players put out that year. Top 10 in both offense and defense throughout the regular season.

Its also alarming that many fans don't understand the effect that Shaq had, even at that time, and how a defense approached any team he was on. I really don't feel the need to expand on that

Hawkeye15
03-27-2011, 02:33 AM
Has any player ever taken a weaker supporting cast to 3 straight Finals?

teams that make 3 straight finals don't have weak casts.

Jewelz0376
03-27-2011, 02:45 AM
sorry but we saw in in the years betweeen the shaq era and the pau era that kobe cant single handedly win a chapionship for the lakers,. he needs a legitiamte second option.

Lol and your holding that against Kobe?? Lebron couldn't win by himself...Jordan couldn't...Nobody has won without a legit 2nd option...

TylerSL
03-27-2011, 02:56 AM
Lol and your holding that against Kobe?? Lebron couldn't win by himself...Jordan couldn't...Nobody has won without a legit 2nd option...

ignore him, it wasnt Kobe's fault the Lakers were not good, but for ANY team to win a title, they have to have help. You cant win it by yourself, the NBA is too good. You can be the star player and the one who shoots the ball in crunch time, but you have to have a good supporting cast to win a chip. Any logical person knows this

AIRMAR72
03-27-2011, 03:00 AM
seriously? You say Shaq was finished.... He averaged 23.5/11/2 with the Heat that season, he was still a top 3 center and still dominate.... Payton was pretty finished yea, just a role player off the bench, but Zo averaged 8/5.5/3 in 20 mpg that season.... Shaq did only average 14 points in the Finals, but he shot 61% from the field, so I would argue he didnt shoot many times because of the low points, but high FG%. He also aveaged 11 boards and 1 block a game. Thats not doing nothing. Wade did a good deal of work, but you have to have help to win a title...... Im not gonna act like they were some GREAT team, but they were not bad at all, they had solid players everywhere, AMAZING team chemistry, and had Riley as coach.

MONEY AND living the GOOD LIFE affected shaq im not saying he was garbage OR doggin (thats MY BOI im just calling it the way i see it) shaq.. but he clearly wasnt da same force after winning his 3rd ring with da lakers.. wade made it easier for him(shaq) to score and shaq was also a liability when it came to FT... ZO was almost finish with medical issues mileage on his knees but showed GREAT courage and mental strength ZO really help da heat wining da ring BY protecting da paint but thats ZO nature to protect da rim but lets be honest they where finish and wade did all the work

AIRMAR72
03-27-2011, 03:06 AM
Lol and your holding that against Kobe?? Lebron couldn't win by himself...Jordan couldn't...Nobody has won without a legit 2nd option...

da DREAM won with nothing his first ring kenny smith dont count he was only good in collage and did NOTHING worth remembering in da league

Jewelz0376
03-27-2011, 03:12 AM
da DREAM won with nothing his first ring kenny smith dont count he was only good in collage and did NOTHING worth remembering in da league

That's true....I'm blowd so Hakeem totally slipped my mind lol... I'll rephrase it then...No perimeter player has ever one being the best player on their team w/o a legit 2nd option...

Steelers23_06
03-27-2011, 03:28 AM
That's true....I'm blowd so Hakeem totally slipped my mind lol... I'll rephrase it then...No perimeter player has ever one being the best player on their team w/o a legit 2nd option...

i dont thinmk you need a "legit 2nd option" its more of a solid team whether you have a star or not you have to play team ball and with a team of kenny smith, sam cassell, big shot bob, and otis thorpe was pretty solid. thats a good team just like the pistons. you need players that compliment each other and thats what miamis biggest obstacle was/is. they need to figure out how to compliment each other better. but im not trying to make it a bout miami lol. thats why the celtics had such instant success because they play off each other so well. you cant name one person in the history of the nba who single handedly won a ring.

Storch
03-27-2011, 03:31 AM
I'm sure Kobe doesn't care what haters say as long as he wins more championships.

C-Style
03-27-2011, 03:53 AM
I think he has a good supporting cast but agree they're not the best thing ever. The team has the perfect complementary pieces for Kobe and it meshes together very well. It's a combination of talent level, coaching, and Kobe just making them better.

EXACTLY! PPl go so far to say that Gasol is "dominant"...



Kobe has a great team no doubt...You can win titles in this league unless you have a great team... I understand the point the op is trying to make too... Some posters on here like to almost diminish last 2 titles, by insisting the team is loaded and implying that plenty of other players could have won in his place...

I've even heard some posters say that Gasol is more valuable to the lakers than Kobe :rolleyes:


thanx somebody gets it! I'm not saying that Kobe did it on his own, dude has help...but not the kinda help some haters are making it out to be! They call the whole roster All-stars when Lakers have 2 and Gasol wasn't even 1 before he went to the Lakers.

What part of the First post was false, I thought it was a pretty accurate description?

heathonater
03-27-2011, 04:05 AM
no one can make an argument that kobe has anything less than a spectacular supporting cast. kobe arguably has the best front line in the nba, and odom is an extremely versatile sixth man that presents many matchup problems due to his size. kobe is one of the game's best players, but saying his supporting cast is not the best in the league is foolish.

Da Knicks
03-27-2011, 04:57 AM
Underrating the lakers, esp. Gasol dude is the best big man in the league.

Jewelz0376
03-27-2011, 05:13 AM
Underrating the lakers, esp. Gasol dude is the best big man in the league.

i think your forgetting some1

:superman:

JordansBulls
03-27-2011, 10:02 AM
Has any player ever taken a weaker supporting cast to 3 straight Finals?

You mean a guy who has had another player lead the team in Win Shares each year and even led in Win Shares in the playoffs last year of anyone. That in itself shows how good the cast is. I bet you won't want find any other 2nd options that made the finals where the 2nd option led in win shares.

AIRMAR72
03-27-2011, 05:41 PM
Underrating the lakers, esp. Gasol dude is the best big man in the league.

gasol is on the wrong team(playing with kobe) put em on the spurs or hawks or rockets where he can be the 1st option on offense once pau gets in da flow theres is no bigman league who could guard him

drobe86
03-27-2011, 09:07 PM
gasol is on the wrong team(playing with kobe) put em on the spurs or hawks or rockets where he can be the 1st option on offense once pau gets in da flow theres is no bigman league who could guard him


Gasol is a career 18 and 9 guy. He was the number 1 option for Memphis for years and was merely an above average player. Gasol benefits from having the other good Laker players around.... And thats just it, the Lakers are a really good team. Nobody on their team is technically GREAT. And that's including Kobe. Because when Kobe didn't have shaq or gasol he was crying and wanted to be traded. Jordan put it on the line every night and benefitted from having Scottie around no doubt. But Jordan brought out the best in bums like Paxson and kerr. Hell even Scottie was a bum when he left Chicago and went to Portland to be number 1 option.

ldawg
03-27-2011, 09:15 PM
Pippen was not all that great and so is Pau, good but not great. Pippen nore Pau never avg more than 23ppg in a season as the main focus. They are great second options but would not lead a team to championships as the main focus. Kobe did not get his respect until he won without Shaq. Wade is good to but he does not have the same drive but he does have the skills. Mj did all 6 without another 30ppg by his side and he could have won more if his Dad was not killed or if he did not retire while on top. No one is on Mj level yet he set the bar really high, Kobe has been great to but mj was an animal.

BigCityofDreams
03-27-2011, 09:22 PM
Pippen was not all that great and so is Pau, good but not great. Pippen nore Pau never avg more than 23ppg in a season as the main focus.

:speechless:

Bruno
03-27-2011, 09:23 PM
Pippen was not all that great and so is Pau, good but not great. Pippen nore Pau never avg more than 23ppg in a season as the main focus.

So PPG is the sole measuring stick in regards to a players greatness?

Pippen is one of the most elite wing defenders in the history of the NBA. Pau Gasol is developing into one of the all-time great "second options" as well.

Hellcrooner
03-27-2011, 09:31 PM
Gasol is a career 18 and 9 guy. He was the number 1 option for Memphis for years and was merely an above average player. Gasol benefits from having the other good Laker players around.... And thats just it, the Lakers are a really good team. Nobody on their team is technically GREAT. And that's including Kobe. Because when Kobe didn't have shaq or gasol he was crying and wanted to be traded. Jordan put it on the line every night and benefitted from having Scottie around no doubt. But Jordan brought out the best in bums like Paxson and kerr. Hell even Scottie was a bum when he left Chicago and went to Portland to be number 1 option.

above average?


You are tripping.



Btw i wonder when people will realize that PAU brings MUCH more than points to a team.

If he was a stupid ballhog like half the league he would have averaged 25 ppg in the grizz and woudl average 22 ppg in the Lakers.

Guess waht grizz woudl ahve never made playoffs a nd lakers woudl have 0 rings with him in the team.

What a thing to hold against him that sometimes he prefers to do that extra pass or look for that open man.....crazy uh?

ldawg
03-27-2011, 10:03 PM
So PPG is the sole measuring stick in regards to a players greatness?

Pippen is one of the most elite wing defenders in the history of the NBA. Pau Gasol is developing into one of the all-time great "second options" as well.nah mj is the measuring stick not pippen. And yes its because of who they played with. no way i mistake Pippen for jordan. Who pushed Pippen? who pushing Pau.

ldawg
03-27-2011, 10:14 PM
Shaq and Kobe were two legit stars that demand triple teams either one could of avg 30+ppg same goes for Lebron and Wade. I don't think Pippen was that kind of player but he was not a push over either he had his years without jordan and he was not that great solo but solid. Yes everyone need good players to win but not all need great players. Mj had alot of good players around him but remove Mj and you have just that a group of good players.

Ty Fast
03-27-2011, 10:25 PM
its a lot better than what a lot of other players past and prestent have

ldawg
03-27-2011, 10:37 PM
its a lot better than what a lot of other players past and prestent haveAt that time many teams had a group of good players its not like his team was the only one. In fact history was not on his side the NBA was dominated by big men. They learn from playing the pistons that it took defense. But the thing is Mj was just a beast in crunch time.

Bruno
03-27-2011, 10:47 PM
nah mj is the measuring stick not pippen. And yes its because of who they played with. no way i mistake Pippen for jordan. Who pushed Pippen? who pushing Pau.

What?

TylerSL
03-27-2011, 11:34 PM
What?

that was my reaction too :shrug:

Vidball
03-28-2011, 12:37 AM
So...I've heard people tiptoe around it but still haven't heard an answer...what team that made the Finals 3 straight times had the weakest supporting cast? Just asking...

PLAYERS FAN
03-28-2011, 01:01 AM
You mean a guy who has had another player lead the team in Win Shares each year and even led in Win Shares in the playoffs last year of anyone. That in itself shows how good the cast is. I bet you won't want find any other 2nd options that made the finals where the 2nd option led in win shares.

Do you consider Lebron James the second greatest player of all-time, since he is second behind Jordan in PER?

Why do u take a stat that was made for baseball too serious?

ldawg
03-28-2011, 06:52 AM
So...I've heard people tiptoe around it but still haven't heard an answer...what team that made the Finals 3 straight times had the weakest supporting cast? Just asking...its kobe man

TheWatcher34
03-28-2011, 07:26 AM
Rose > Kobe ;)

Lim
03-28-2011, 07:33 AM
yup i agree wade team was the worst along with da dream rockects that ive seen to win a championship shaq did nothing but took up space and mis FT plus shaq was finish after laker 3rd ring when he got da heat along with gary and zo they were FINISH wade did all da work finding teamates for easy shots wade made posey finding him for open 3....posey also help boston defeating da lakers knocking down open3

shaq averaged 18 and 10 boards 1.5 blks on 60% shooting in the playoffs the year he won it with MIA. thats far from FINISH

Heediot
03-28-2011, 08:16 AM
Gasol is the X-Factor his interior offense opens things up more than people give him credit for. Kobe Bryant's record without a good big man speaks volume. Even wade without a good big man did not fare too well. Both have sub 500 records without a good big man.

xxplayerxx23
03-28-2011, 08:19 AM
The thing is almost all of our guys play good defense.

Great team overall great supporting cast. You have odom coming off the bench and barnes is a nice bench piece. Even brown is good. Very deep team. Anyway WHy Would KObe do that in Your sig he is a very mean person :cry: lol:)

JasonJohnHorn
03-28-2011, 08:37 AM
Mchale WAS better than Gasol.

I had the pleasure of watching both in their prime, and frankly there is no contest. McHale has one season where he was posting a scoring average that was noticably higher than Gasol, but the career averages goes to Pau, same with rebounding (though I will give you that McHale averaged fewer minutes a game, but at the same time, if he was that good, why wasnt he getting more minutes?). What sets them apart for me is passing. Gasol is a better passer than McHale ever was. Defensively I would put them on a par. Dont get me wrong, I love McHale, but Gasol is a guy that can lead a team (as he proved in Memphis), McHale thrived in situations where he was the second of third option and defenders were focused on Bird.

JordansBulls
03-28-2011, 08:57 AM
So...I've heard people tiptoe around it but still haven't heard an answer...what team that made the Finals 3 straight times had the weakest supporting cast? Just asking...

Probably MJ. Most statistically dominant on his team, and didn't have a player make the allstar team each of the 3 times in either 3 peat. Not only that but led in PER and Win Shares each time in the season and playoffs. No other player who took a team to the finals 3 times in a row has led in PER/Win Shares each time in the season and playoffs.

Geargo Wallace
03-28-2011, 09:22 AM
I had the pleasure of watching both in their prime, and frankly there is no contest. McHale has one season where he was posting a scoring average that was noticably higher than Gasol, but the career averages goes to Pau, same with rebounding (though I will give you that McHale averaged fewer minutes a game, but at the same time, if he was that good, why wasnt he getting more minutes?). What sets them apart for me is passing. Gasol is a better passer than McHale ever was. Defensively I would put them on a par. Dont get me wrong, I love McHale, but Gasol is a guy that can lead a team (as he proved in Memphis), McHale thrived in situations where he was the second of third option and defenders were focused on Bird.

this is blasphemy.

McHale scored with extreme efficiency. His defense was some of the best D that you'll ever see by a PF. The man came off the bench for most of career so there's your career averages. The leader part I'd agree, but I'd rather have McHale cuz he'd take another player's head off on a fast break, or play with a broken foot. Not soft and full of heart.

nycericanguy
03-28-2011, 09:27 AM
Is it really an argument? He has a great supporting cast that can both play defense and score, and has 3 legit contributing 7'0 players. Let it be, he's a great player on a great team.

Agreed, there is no other team in the NBA with that kind of talent and size. Granted Odem is more of a finesse big man but he is still a great rebounder.

Avenged
03-28-2011, 12:55 PM
So PPG is the sole measuring stick in regards to a players greatness?

Pippen is one of the most elite wing defenders in the history of the NBA. Pau Gasol is developing into one of the all-time great "second options" as well.

Not only that but a player like Pau who has averaged 18 points per game throughout his career does so efficiently. It's not like he's struggling to get to 18, he can very well averaged 20+ points but his mentality isn't exactly that.

Pau is the same player now that he was in Memphis. His shooting might be a slight better, along with his rebounding but he has remained consistent throughout his career. His game doesn't flourish as a #1 but he's putting up great, efficient numbers as a #2.

Avenged
03-28-2011, 01:01 PM
Underrating the lakers, esp. Gasol dude is the best big man in the league.

Not the best but definitely top 3.