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View Full Version : Why was Tracy Mcgrady never on a team seeded higher than 5th in Houston



JordansBulls
03-21-2011, 12:59 PM
What is the reason that Tracy Mcgrady was never on a team higher than a 5th seed?


I can understand why in Orlando this was the case, but in Houston, I just can't understand how with Yao Ming even when healthy they never got higher than the 5th seed in any year. Sure they had HCA in 2007 and 2008 due to the better record, but this is surprising to say the least. I mean many give Iverson a hard time saying you can't build around him, but at least once in his career he managed to lead a team to the top seed.




Overall Averages for T-mac for the Rockets in the Season

Season

Games 297 / 23.2 PPG / 5.6 RPG / 5.7 APG / 1.33 SPG / 0.6 BPG / 42% FG / 27% 3 PT / 20.1-21.5 PER



Here are the Overall Averages for Yao for the Rockets in the Season

Season

Games 317 / 24.2 PPG / 9.6 RPG / 1.6 APG / 0.4 SPG / 1.9 BPG / 53% FG / 23.7-25.5 PER






Overall Averages for T-mac for the Rockets in the Playoffs


Playoffs

Games 20 / 27.7 PPG / 7.1 RPG / 6.9 APG / 1.2 SPG / 1.0 BPG / 43% FG / 29% 3 PT / 24.0-25.5 PER



Here are the Overall Averages for Yao for the Rockets in the Playoffs


Playoffs

Games 23 / 20.9 PPG / 9.7 RPG / 0.9 APG / 0.3 SPG / 1.5 BPG / 53% FG / 23.0-24.5 PER

Trace
03-21-2011, 01:03 PM
Injuries. They were never on the same court for long.

The only year Yao was relatively healthy, Tmac got injured.

GREATNESS ONE
03-21-2011, 01:09 PM
I agree, I just think the injuries never let them Gel.

ttam68
03-21-2011, 01:09 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2005&year_max=2008&franch_id=HOU&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=60&c2stat=ws_per_48&c2comp=gt&c2val=.075&c3stat=mp_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=22&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

He and Yao played over 60 games together once: their first season together. Add in the fact that the teams depth was never great and they only really lasted 4 years together and it isn't nearly as surprising.

Okc Thunder #1
03-21-2011, 01:20 PM
I think if he would of join the Bulls and play as their SG, that he would earn his respect. But instead he join Detroit???:down:

DITKA4GOV
03-21-2011, 01:40 PM
I think if he would of join the Bulls and play as their SG, that he would earn his respect. But instead he join Detroit???:down:

He joined Detroit because Chicago was not interested.

Flojo
03-21-2011, 01:43 PM
I think if he would of join the Bulls and play as their SG, that he would earn his respect. But instead he join Detroit???:down:

He stated multiple times that he was excited for a chance to join the Bulls, and even said that his goal was to join the Bulls, and to fight for a starting position. The Bulls passed on him - not the other way around.

effen5
03-21-2011, 01:51 PM
He stated multiple times that he was excited for a chance to join the Bulls, and even said that his goal was to join the Bulls, and to fight for a starting position. The Bulls passed on him - not the other way around.

Bulls were going to sign him to a non-guarenteed contract....Tmac wanted a guarenteed contract.....

Htownballa1622
03-21-2011, 02:15 PM
Rafer alston, jon barry, juwan howard, bob sura, jim jackson.should I keep going?

Chronz
03-21-2011, 02:18 PM
They couldnt win without Mac and by the time they finally could he became a cancerous chucker

kobebabe
03-21-2011, 02:50 PM
Injuries

thekmp211
03-21-2011, 03:30 PM
yeah what everyone said, depth problems early and by the time those were settled both guys had already started falling apart. sucks, but thats what happens unfortunately.

Hawkeye15
03-21-2011, 03:37 PM
The two never played more than 60 games or so together, and TMac was the instrumental part of winning for that team. You add how strong the west was in the 2000's, especially during that timeframe, and there you have it.

ackar
03-21-2011, 03:44 PM
i think it is very simple neither Yao nor T-Mac made their teammates better. A Yao lead Rockets before T-Mac got nowhere, t-mac other teams never went anywhere.

Sometimes guys what they are a talent and that's it.

JoeyDubb23
03-21-2011, 03:46 PM
Simple... Bc they play in the west.

richiesaurus310
03-21-2011, 03:49 PM
Injuries, lack of a supporting cast, and they played in the west.

Sportfan
03-21-2011, 03:52 PM
2 players don't make a great team

thekmp211
03-21-2011, 03:58 PM
random, but it's funny that the rockets essentially essentially turned rudy gay (used to acquire battier) in to hasheem thabeet (acquired by trading battier back to memphis) and a late first round pick. morey is known for his smart moves, and the original trade made sense at the time, but i think we can all agree it didn't work out too well.

ttam68
03-21-2011, 05:05 PM
random, but it's funny that the rockets essentially essentially turned rudy gay (used to acquire battier) in to hasheem thabeet (acquired by trading battier back to memphis) and a late first round pick. morey is known for his smart moves, and the original trade made sense at the time, but i think we can all agree it didn't work out too well.

At the time it made a lot of sense. Battier is exactly the type of guy you want to pair with two superstars and Rudy Gay was only a mid-lottery prospect. But you're right, Houston would much rather have him now that Yao and TMac have fully crumbled.

The-Human-Cigar
03-21-2011, 05:46 PM
1. Always Injured...
2. On teams without enough depth...
3. Work Ethic...

He just wasn't better than the other teams best player most of the time yet was paid what they were making. He had upside, never broke out to help win playoff games/series.

Crackadalic
03-21-2011, 05:51 PM
People forget how loaded the west was for the majority of the 2000's. Injuries stop them from playing to their fullest

John Walls Era
03-21-2011, 06:12 PM
Too many Tmac threads recently for my liking, but its because hes injury prone. Also because he never tried in practice :D

astrosmaniac
03-21-2011, 08:58 PM
random, but it's funny that the rockets essentially essentially turned rudy gay (used to acquire battier) in to hasheem thabeet (acquired by trading battier back to memphis) and a late first round pick. morey is known for his smart moves, and the original trade made sense at the time, but i think we can all agree it didn't work out too well.

this topic has been beaten to death in the rockets forum, but i think the best way to look at it is this: gay was given the job as the guy in memphis. here in houston he would have been the 3rd option at best. i think it would have stunted his development and wouldnt be nearly as good now if he had stayed on the rockets

210Don
03-21-2011, 08:58 PM
hes selfish

Chronz
03-21-2011, 09:34 PM
this topic has been beaten to death in the rockets forum, but i think the best way to look at it is this: gay was given the job as the guy in memphis. here in houston he would have been the 3rd option at best. i think it would have stunted his development and wouldnt be nearly as good now if he had stayed on the rockets

Or he could have been even better, he would have learned a proper defensive stance from the get go, came along with no pressure and focused on learning how to win. It was a trade to win now but it still wasnt a good one

Chronz
03-21-2011, 09:35 PM
i think it is very simple neither Yao nor T-Mac made their teammates better. A Yao lead Rockets before T-Mac got nowhere, t-mac other teams never went anywhere.

Sometimes guys what they are a talent and that's it.

Plz do explain how they had the talent around them

blacknell
03-21-2011, 10:07 PM
because Tmac is hurt all the damn time

Jahari Kavi
03-21-2011, 10:20 PM
Just when I thought that the Tmac/Yao era was out of my memory...............no comment.

SteveNash
03-21-2011, 10:24 PM
2 players don't make a great team

Kobe/Shaq won 3 titles.

FuriousJatt
03-21-2011, 10:47 PM
he was too busy reading a book by allen iverosn "practice, practice...".

llemon
03-21-2011, 10:49 PM
'06-'07 Rockets had the 5th seed, but the 4th best record, and had homecourt in the 1st rd vs. Utah.

Utah won game#7 and McGrady cried.

CowboysKB24
03-22-2011, 12:47 AM
Rockets could not compete with the competition.

T-Mac was never a winner in the playoffs, it is hard to figure out why. His supporting cast in Orlando was below average. Houston had a different roster each week. T-Mac just got the short end of the stick each year. Bad luck too.

papipapsmanny
03-22-2011, 12:53 AM
T-Mac's playoff stats:drool:

TMAC94
03-22-2011, 12:58 AM
because they cut gerald green after only one game ... naaah, cos they had guys like luther head and rafer alston, after tmac and yao no one really could play imo ..

JordansBulls
03-22-2011, 11:23 AM
because they cut gerald green after only one game ... naaah, cos they had guys like luther head and rafer alston, after tmac and yao no one really could play imo ..

Luther was the man at Illinois.

OaklandsFinest
03-22-2011, 11:56 AM
Lakers, Spurs, Mavs, Suns, Jazz, Nuggets, Portland. Tough conference especially with that supporting cast. I hate how people say T Mac is the reason they didnt advance in the playoffs, his numbers go up across the board and he put his heart out there on the floor. Instead look at how Yao's numbers go down, or he gets hurt, or that Bob Sura is starting.... T Mac was sent out with a water gun to shoot it out on hamburger hill, and almost won a couple series'

ackar
03-22-2011, 11:59 AM
Plz do explain how they had the talent around them

Truly great players make others great no matter how mediocre they are.

See Trevor Ariza contract he should be thanking Kobe!

Injuries are part of the game he should have kept his body in prime condition that is his money maker.

TMac was once consider albeit briefly better than Kobe.

What happened work ethic, conditioning, and the will to win.

rhino17
03-22-2011, 12:15 PM
Besides him and Yao, those Rockets teams were incredibly untalented

2004-2005 vs Dallas
PG: Bob Sura
SG: David Wesley
SF: Tracy McGrady
PF: Clearence Weatherspoon
C: Yao Ming

2006-2007 vs Utah
PG: Rafer Alston
SG: Tracy McGrady
SF: Shane Battier
PF: Chuck Hayes/Juwan Howard
C: Yao Ming

2007-2008 vs Utah
PG: Rafer Alston
SG: Tracy McGrady
SF: Shane Battier
PF: Luis Scola
C: Dikembe Mutombo




It was not 'til 2008-2009 when they got a legitimate roster together and when that happened, he got hurt

The rest of those teams sucked, Rafer ****ing Alston was the worst starting PG in the NBA, they had absolutely no depth or bench to speak of, and if Yao and tmac were no firing on all cylinders, the team never scored enough point to win games

Tmac was an incredibly playoff performer and left it all out there in the post-season, but he could only take a group of scrubs so far

BigCityofDreams
03-22-2011, 12:35 PM
Truly great players make others great no matter how mediocre they are.

See Trevor Ariza contract he should be thanking Kobe!

Injuries are part of the game he should have kept his body in prime condition that is his money maker.

TMac was once consider albeit briefly better than Kobe.

What happened work ethic, conditioning, and the will to win.

What about the thought that due to his scoliosis there was no way he was going to hold up as a primer NBA player? Do you think it has some merit to it or is it just an excuse?

Chi StateOfMind
03-22-2011, 12:47 PM
injuries-there both made of glass

NBA-GMaster
03-22-2011, 02:12 PM
No core players on van gundy's time and injuries on adelman's time..

JordansBulls
03-22-2011, 02:27 PM
Besides him and Yao, those Rockets teams were incredibly untalented

2004-2005 vs Dallas
PG: Bob Sura
SG: David Wesley
SF: Tracy McGrady
PF: Clearence Weatherspoon
C: Yao Ming

2006-2007 vs Utah
PG: Rafer Alston
SG: Tracy McGrady
SF: Shane Battier
PF: Chuck Hayes/Juwan Howard
C: Yao Ming

2007-2008 vs Utah
PG: Rafer Alston
SG: Tracy McGrady
SF: Shane Battier
PF: Luis Scola
C: Dikembe Mutombo




It was not 'til 2008-2009 when they got a legitimate roster together and when that happened, he got hurt

The rest of those teams sucked, Rafer ****ing Alston was the worst starting PG in the NBA, they had absolutely no depth or bench to speak of, and if Yao and tmac were no firing on all cylinders, the team never scored enough point to win games

Tmac was an incredibly playoff performer and left it all out there in the post-season, but he could only take a group of scrubs so far

Which year do you think the Rockets had a better shot to go the furthest? In 2007, 2008 or 2009?

Granted in 2008 Yao missed the playoffs and in 2009 Tmac was gone and then Yao.

koreancabbage
03-22-2011, 03:46 PM
if he only stayed in Toronto with his cousin in Vince Carter - would have been a dynasty for a long time.

Chronz
03-22-2011, 03:54 PM
Truly great players make others great no matter how mediocre they are.
Theres only so much better you can make crapola, they consistently outplayed their talent level.


See Trevor Ariza contract he should be thanking Kobe!
I would thank Phil and the triangle, then Gasol far before thanking Kobe as his production in those minutes alongside Pau more impressive and never was he out of line without either.

Besides pointing to one player is a piss poor method, its like saying CP3 doesnt make his teammates better because Ariza sucks now. How about Artest? By your method of naming names with no analysis one could claim he played better alongside an injured Tmac. Look up Yao's production with and without Tmac on the court during their playing times and tell me Tmac didnt make anyone better.


Injuries are part of the game he should have kept his body in prime condition that is his money maker.

You know nothing of his workout regimen or what hes done to stay in the league. Injuries are part of the game, but genetics are out of ones control.


TMac was once consider albeit briefly better than Kobe.

What happened work ethic, conditioning, and the will to win.

Incorrect, what happened was back problems and degenerative disk disease sapping him of athletic ability.

JordansBulls
06-16-2011, 02:31 PM
T-Mac's playoff stats:drool:

That's the thing, they are good in round 1 but I question does he know how to get those stats in the flow of the game to help his team win?

KnicksR4Real
06-16-2011, 02:40 PM
injuries

Tuck&Rolle
06-16-2011, 02:45 PM
Never could win when it counted the most. He also should have never left Toronto and stayed with with his cousin Vince Carter. They were so young and talented and really could have done some big things.

BigCityofDreams
06-16-2011, 03:29 PM
Never could win when it counted the most. He also should have never left Toronto and stayed with with his cousin Vince Carter. They were so young and talented and really could have done some big things.

T-mac left TOR due to money and a lack of playing time right?

Chronz
06-16-2011, 03:31 PM
T-mac left TOR due to money and a lack of playing time right?

No he left because he wanted to play closer to home alongside a superior star in Grant Hill. The money, the playing time, and the increased role were all promised to Tmac before even becoming a FA. Hell it was happening mid-season, but Toronto isnt home, and he didnt exactly like playing alongside Vince.

BigCityofDreams
06-16-2011, 03:36 PM
No he left because he wanted to play closer to home alongside a superior star in Grant Hill. The money, the playing time, and the increased role were all promised to Tmac before even becoming a FA. Hell it was happening mid-season, but Toronto isnt home, and he didnt exactly like playing alongside Vince.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Him and Vince had issues?

Chronz
06-16-2011, 04:07 PM
Thanks for clearing that up.

Him and Vince had issues?

They had a falling out, I forget why but it lasted awhile.

FriedTofuz
06-16-2011, 04:09 PM
The west has been quite competative. Mcgrady also accumulated several injuries.

BigCityofDreams
06-16-2011, 10:24 PM
They had a falling out, I forget why but it lasted awhile.

Man that sucks those two would have been deadly playing together for a while

llemon
06-16-2011, 10:38 PM
Because both McGrady and Yao were both unbelievably overrated and overvalued?

To think either was ever considered to be a franchise player is preposterous.

210Don
06-16-2011, 10:46 PM
Because both McGrady and Yao were both unbelievably overrated and overvalued?

To think either was ever considered to be a franchise player is preposterous.

:laugh::punish

JordansBulls
06-17-2011, 12:05 AM
Because both McGrady and Yao were both unbelievably overrated and overvalued?

To think either was ever considered to be a franchise player is preposterous.

How can you say neither was a franchise player?

drobe86
06-17-2011, 12:20 AM
Mcgrady=Lebron. They both have Godly talent with No Heart. Hence the reason they could never seal the deal... Shame for both guys, because I thought both guys skill set were unmatched. From a talent standpoint there aren't 2 better players in NBA history. But when you're heartless it's a different story

Spiggity_ace
06-17-2011, 12:47 AM
Mcgrady=Lebron. They both have Godly talent with No Heart. Hence the reason they could never seal the deal... Shame for both guys, because I thought both guys skill set were unmatched. From a talent standpoint there aren't 2 better players in NBA history. But when you're heartless it's a different story

LOL no heart, u gotta be kidding me

Hawkeye15
06-17-2011, 12:54 AM
Mcgrady=Lebron. They both have Godly talent with No Heart. Hence the reason they could never seal the deal... Shame for both guys, because I thought both guys skill set were unmatched. From a talent standpoint there aren't 2 better players in NBA history. But when you're heartless it's a different story

I do admire your consistency

LA_Raiders
06-17-2011, 12:59 AM
Injuries and play in the West...

clehmun
06-17-2011, 03:54 AM
TMAC left because he didn't want to be in VC's shadow.
It was the Iverson era, where every star wants to be THE MAN on their team.
So different from the current era.

I actually miss that era.
You get to see Iverson carry his team thats tailored made for him compete with VC's team who's built around him. KG, Duncan, Webber, Kobe/Shaq, Kidd, etc all had their own teams. Teams each had one superstar, and they did their best to find pieces who would fit perfectly with their franchise player. It's the right way to build a champion IMHO.

Now everyone wants to join forces.
Lebron joins wade, carmelo joins amare, cp3 and howard crying for help (and by "help" i mean another superstar). But you can't blame them because that's what the league has become. You can't win anymore unless you have 3 superstar on your team. whereas ten years ago the "big 3" are the likes of ray allen, sam cassell, and glen robinson.

i miss 90's to early 00's basketball.

TMAC94
06-17-2011, 10:25 AM
Mcgrady=Lebron. They both have Godly talent with No Heart. Hence the reason they could never seal the deal... Shame for both guys, because I thought both guys skill set were unmatched. From a talent standpoint there aren't 2 better players in NBA history. But when you're heartless it's a different story

your not serious ? and to answer the question he had players around him like juwan howard, rafter alston, luther head, jon barry and david wesley + the injuries

JordansBulls
06-17-2011, 12:27 PM
your not serious ? and to answer the question he had players around him like juwan howard, rafter alston, luther head, jon barry and david wesley + the injuries

What was wrong with having Juwann Howard???

Chronz
06-17-2011, 01:00 PM
What was wrong with having Juwann Howard???

Are you good with him as a starter on a playoff team?

JordansBulls
06-17-2011, 04:22 PM
Are you good with him as a starter on a playoff team?

For me yes. He was a stud.

astrosmaniac
06-17-2011, 04:35 PM
not when he played with t-mac in houston. he never averaged better than 12 and 6.7 on 46% shooting as a starting PF. those are studly numbers? JB you're just embarrassing yourself

JordansBulls
06-17-2011, 04:48 PM
not when he played with t-mac in houston. he never averaged better than 12 and 6.7 on 46% shooting as a starting PF. those are studly numbers? JB you're just embarrassing yourself

How much do you expect him to average when you have two 25 ppg scorers on the team?

Giants88
06-17-2011, 06:38 PM
T-mac left TOR due to money and a lack of playing time right?

Not playing time. He wanted to be the man for another team.

astrosmaniac
06-17-2011, 07:25 PM
How much do you expect him to average when you have two 25 ppg scorers on the team?

the three years they all played together:

04/05: Yao - 18.3 PPG, 8.3 RPG
mcgrady: 25.7 PPG
Howard: 9.6 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 45% from the field

so 1 25 point score means a "stud" starting PF averages less than 10 points?

05/06: Yao - 22.3 PPG, 10.2 RPG (only 57 games)
McGrady - 24.4 PPG (only 47 games)
Howard - 11.6 PPG, 46% from the floor, 6.7 RPG in 31 minutes

so the year he had his best scoring averages was the year mcgrady and yao combined for 46.7 PPG. so much for that theory

06/07: Yao - 25 PPG (only 48 games)
McGrady - 24.6 PPG
Howard - 9.7 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 46.5% from the field

based on that breakdown, the fact that yao and mcgrady missed large chunks and he still never averaged more than 11.6 is inexcusable. he didnt score, rebound, or defend at a league average pace and was horribly inefficient.

once again, are those the stats of a "stud" player?

Chronz
06-17-2011, 07:26 PM
For me yes. He was a stud.

He's a fine bench player to me but may I ask what you like about him?

JordansBulls
06-17-2011, 10:09 PM
the three years they all played together:

04/05: Yao - 18.3 PPG, 8.3 RPG
mcgrady: 25.7 PPG
Howard: 9.6 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 45% from the field

so 1 25 point score means a "stud" starting PF averages less than 10 points?

05/06: Yao - 22.3 PPG, 10.2 RPG (only 57 games)
McGrady - 24.4 PPG (only 47 games)
Howard - 11.6 PPG, 46% from the floor, 6.7 RPG in 31 minutes

so the year he had his best scoring averages was the year mcgrady and yao combined for 46.7 PPG. so much for that theory

06/07: Yao - 25 PPG (only 48 games)
McGrady - 24.6 PPG
Howard - 9.7 PPG, 5.9 RPG, 46.5% from the field

based on that breakdown, the fact that yao and mcgrady missed large chunks and he still never averaged more than 11.6 is inexcusable. he didnt score, rebound, or defend at a league average pace and was horribly inefficient.

once again, are those the stats of a "stud" player?

Well are you considering him your 3rd scorer or something? The problem IMO was not playing Bonzi Wells that year.

gaughan333
06-17-2011, 10:26 PM
Too many Tmac threads recently for my liking, but its because hes injury prone. Also because he never tried in practice :D

That may be the ugliest cat I have ever seen

astrosmaniac
06-17-2011, 10:47 PM
Well are you considering him your 3rd scorer or something? The problem IMO was not playing Bonzi Wells that year.

i would assume if a player was a "stud" they would be AT LEAST your 3 scorer, or a rebounding machine (love, rodman, etc) or a shutdown defender. he was none of those

Trueblue2
06-18-2011, 12:46 AM
The era he played in, injuries, being in the west. Everyone had to be the man, the NBA was full of teams that were carried by one star and he followed suit, being the guy was more important to him than winning. If him and Vince had the mentality of this era's superstars people would be talking about Vince and tmac like they talk about shaq and Kobe.

JordansBulls
06-20-2011, 11:32 PM
i would assume if a player was a "stud" they would be AT LEAST your 3 scorer, or a rebounding machine (love, rodman, etc) or a shutdown defender. he was none of those

Well I don't think he was going to be a Bosh on the team, but rather an Odom or someone of that caliber.

Chronz
06-20-2011, 11:45 PM
Well I don't think he was going to be a Bosh on the team, but rather an Odom or someone of that caliber.

He fell well short of the mile stone

drobe86
06-21-2011, 12:18 AM
He never advanced because he had no heart... Add that to the fact that he was a walking injury from about 2005-2008/2009... Its a shame too because he was uber talented..

JordansBulls
06-21-2011, 12:42 PM
He never advanced because he had no heart... Add that to the fact that he was a walking injury from about 2005-2008/2009... Its a shame too because he was uber talented..

He played 78 games in 2005, 71 in 2007 and 66 in 2008.

JordansBulls
06-23-2011, 01:37 PM
I actually think for the 2007 team that Adelman would have been better to have and for the 2008 team that JVG would have been better to have.

S-Dot
06-23-2011, 01:44 PM
McGrady faced some misfortunes. He never really had the healthy #2 guy available for him with Grant Hill in Orlando or Yao in Houston. He and Yao never seemed to be healthy at the same time, especially when it mattered most.

JordansBulls
06-27-2011, 01:02 PM
McGrady faced some misfortunes. He never really had the healthy #2 guy available for him with Grant Hill in Orlando or Yao in Houston. He and Yao never seemed to be healthy at the same time, especially when it mattered most.

2005 playoffs and 2007 playoffs they were.

Bunta
06-27-2011, 03:07 PM
Injuries, lack of a supporting cast, and they played in the west.

Careful, you could be talking about Kevin Love.

GrkGawdofWalkz
06-27-2011, 03:18 PM
Because he's vastly overrated in most categories of the games. In Houston he got there at a time when Yao was a major injury liability. While he did have one playoff run where he got past the first round, he's not really that impactful a player. He's more a Scottie Pippen with injuries that derailed his career.

Chronz
06-27-2011, 06:03 PM
Because he's vastly overrated in most categories of the games. In Houston he got there at a time when Yao was a major injury liability. While he did have one playoff run where he got past the first round, he's not really that impactful a player. He's more a Scottie Pippen with injuries that derailed his career.

I agree with the bold, I like the way you recall history, articulated perfectly with razor sharp accuracy. Do you have a twitter account so that I may subscribe to your pearls of wisdom?

JordansBulls
06-27-2011, 08:01 PM
I agree with the bold, I like the way you recall history, articulated perfectly with razor sharp accuracy. Do you have a twitter account so that I may subscribe to your pearls of wisdom?

:confused:

Cracka2HI!
06-28-2011, 12:56 AM
I never felt like they were close to being contenders. In fact I think the best Houston team was the team a couple years ago when Yao got hurt during the Lakers series.

JordansBulls
06-28-2011, 08:12 AM
I never felt like they were close to being contenders. In fact I think the best Houston team was the team a couple years ago when Yao got hurt during the Lakers series.

I disagree. I think both 2007 and 2008 they were capable of winning it all. In 2008 they won 22 in a row with Yao missing the last 12.

ttam68
06-28-2011, 09:46 AM
:confused:

Tmac was injured the year they got out of the first round.

KingPosey
06-28-2011, 05:23 PM
Injuries, His teams were top heavy, and the deepest Western Conference maybe ever. His team was screwed over in Orlando with injuries too. And like in Houston, the teams werent that deep, and their top players were the ones that were injured.

Anyone that blames his teams losing on him in the Playoffs need only look at his stats to see how wrong they are.

KingPosey
06-28-2011, 05:24 PM
Because he's vastly overrated in most categories of the games. In Houston he got there at a time when Yao was a major injury liability. While he did have one playoff run where he got past the first round, he's not really that impactful a player. He's more a Scottie Pippen with injuries that derailed his career.

lol, at all of it.

Bunta
06-28-2011, 06:11 PM
I agree with the bold, I like the way you recall history, articulated perfectly with razor sharp accuracy. Do you have a twitter account so that I may subscribe to your pearls of wisdom?

I see what you did there.

rhino17
06-28-2011, 06:43 PM
A combination of no talent besides he and Yao and poor coaching

when they fixed both of those, he was hurt too often

JordansBulls
06-29-2011, 12:33 PM
A combination of no talent besides he and Yao and poor coaching

when they fixed both of those, he was hurt too often

You didn't like JVG for the Rockets?

Chronz
06-29-2011, 01:16 PM
Poor coaching? JVG/Doc Rivers were studs. Even Adelman was alright but he doesnt compare to the others.

KingPosey
06-29-2011, 01:45 PM
^
I have to disagree with you Cronz, Rick Adelman is as good a coach as both of those guys.

PLAYERS FAN
06-29-2011, 05:07 PM
Once, they past the first round without him, that hurt his legacy(IMO). I still think he was a Franchise player, unlike Pau.

Chronz
06-29-2011, 05:23 PM
^
I have to disagree with you Cronz, Rick Adelman is as good a coach as both of those guys.

I have to ask if you saw JVG and Adelman with the Rockets. Truth be told JVG got more out of a 2 man squad than Adelman got out of a deep team.

KingPosey
06-29-2011, 05:44 PM
yes I did see them both with the rockets my good man. I think Adelman got a ton out of an injury riddled team. Rick's Rockets team was almost always not the team he signed on to coach, if that makes sense?

Tony_Starks
06-29-2011, 05:46 PM
Off top I would say injuries mostly, to him and Yao. Also as much as I liked JVG defensively he was kinda anemic offensively....

islandprince
06-29-2011, 05:51 PM
bulls shud sign t-mac dis year tho

Tony_Starks
06-29-2011, 06:05 PM
bulls shud sign t-mac dis year tho


Now you know he's coming to the Lake Show to get him a ring! 50 game season means him and Kobe will be on throwback mode!!

JordansBulls
07-01-2011, 01:35 PM
Another thing I actually forgot that Rafer missed games 1 and 2 in 2008 vs Utah when Utah went up 2-0 on them.

i'myourdaddy
07-01-2011, 02:52 PM
Kobe/Shaq won 2 titles. The NBA gave them the third.

I fixed that for you :rolleyes:

JordansBulls
07-01-2011, 08:11 PM
I fixed that for you :rolleyes:

What do you mean?

Delfiffer
07-02-2011, 01:11 AM
Basing it on seeding position isn't good, especially considering that the west was much more stronger than the east for most of the years. In 05, 07, 08, and 09, the Rockets won 50+ games. If they were in the East, they would have been the 4th, 2nd, 3rd, 4th seed for the respective years.
Had McGrady stayed on the Magic when they drafted Dwight, I think they would have done more damage and made it further in the playoffs than with Tmac/Yao. McGrady really didn't get lucky with his playoffs but for the most part, it wasn't his fault IMO. People always knock on McGrady for never passing the first round but they forget to mention that his teams barely ever had homecourt (only once- 2007) or were really the favourites.

JordansBulls
07-05-2011, 12:12 PM
Basing it on seeding position isn't good, especially considering that the west was much more stronger than the east for most of the years. In 05, 07, 08, and 09, the Rockets won 50+ games. If they were in the East, they would have been the 4th, 2nd, 3rd, 4th seed for the respective years.
Had McGrady stayed on the Magic when they drafted Dwight, I think they would have done more damage and made it further in the playoffs than with Tmac/Yao. McGrady really didn't get lucky with his playoffs but for the most part, it wasn't his fault IMO. People always knock on McGrady for never passing the first round but they forget to mention that his teams barely ever had homecourt (only once- 2007) or were really the favourites.

Good post for the most part, but his team had HCA in 2008 as well.

Heediot
07-05-2011, 12:21 PM
Why easy because the Spurs, Lakers, Mavs and Suns, were among the best 6-7 teams in the NBA year in and year out during Tracy's reign in Houston.

ghettosean
07-05-2011, 12:33 PM
Yo if Tracy wasn't such a dumb @$$ b*tc# then he would have won a championship with the Raptors if he stayed on the team (that team that almost made it to the eastern conference finals and pretty much the finals since Philly went the distance).

But he decided he wanted to be the big dog on the court and took off from T.O and talked ***** about the franchise on his way out...

this is what he got in return:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD3u5ySb_DU

Good for you Tracy you did well... Don't come back!

jp611
07-05-2011, 12:37 PM
Because he's not as good as you make him out to be, JB

BIG-D
07-05-2011, 12:39 PM
How can ppl say rafer alston was a good player does any1 remember the year orlando went to the finals id say behind dwight he was the biggest reason the went to the finals then the put jemeer in an lost an havnt been back since

ghettosean
07-05-2011, 12:46 PM
How can ppl say rafer alston was a good player does any1 remember the year orlando went to the finals id say behind dwight he was the biggest reason the went to the finals then the put jemeer in an lost an havnt been back since
Dude I will agree with you about Rafer being a big reason that the magic went to the finals but I'll say this:

Rafer has all the talent in the world... I think he could have been an elite PG in the league like a top 10 PG. His problem is that he's a streetballer and he would turn things into a one on one challenge with other players on other teams. He's not the best at running a team offense. I remember before Nelson came back the coach was yelling (actually screaming from the sidelines) "Nice and simple... Just nice and simple" because he would be a bit too fancy when he goes into this one on one nonesense.

As a fan that has followed him for years (because he was on Toronto and I followed him after that) I will say that this guy is all heart. He wears his heart on his shoulders and thats it basically. He's not in the league right now because he doesn't want to... Too much pressure and things he just didn't want to deal with.

I hope he's doing well in his new gig!

BIG-D
07-05-2011, 02:39 PM
Wasn't itt him who slapped eddie housein the playoffs
when he was on the celtics wit that headband lol that was priceless

sjoerdje
07-05-2011, 03:50 PM
he should have stayed in orlando when dwight came in

Chronz
07-05-2011, 04:01 PM
Good post for the most part, but his team had HCA in 2008 as well.

I disagree, it was a great post, I dont see the point of your tho, there is no point in mentioning him having HCA if he didnt have the better team and his team was severely depleted.

JordansBulls
07-05-2011, 05:07 PM
Because he's not as good as you make him out to be, JB

How so?

People would take T-mac over Rose to start a team.

JasonJohnHorn
07-05-2011, 05:45 PM
Because he was an over-rated, immature, ball hog.

85BearsDefense
07-05-2011, 05:57 PM
2 players dont warrant a 5 seed or higher

JordansBulls
07-06-2011, 07:32 AM
Because he was an over-rated, immature, ball hog.

In what way was he a ballhog?

sventhedog
07-06-2011, 11:40 AM
mcgrady is the epitome of unrealized potential. people claiming lebron would surpass MJ when his career is over, think again. lebron might just be the next tmac.

John Walls Era
07-06-2011, 02:01 PM
Some of you are severely underrating the teams that he played with.

JordansBulls
07-06-2011, 05:03 PM
lebron might just be the next tmac.

He is better mentality than Tmac at least.

JordansBulls
07-07-2011, 12:10 PM
Yo if Tracy wasn't such a dumb @$$ b*tc# then he would have won a championship with the Raptors if he stayed on the team (that team that almost made it to the eastern conference finals and pretty much the finals since Philly went the distance).

But he decided he wanted to be the big dog on the court and took off from T.O and talked ***** about the franchise on his way out...

this is what he got in return:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD3u5ySb_DU

Good for you Tracy you did well... Don't come back!

There was no way he was winning with the Raptors.

ghettosean
07-07-2011, 03:15 PM
There was no way he was winning with the Raptors.
Dude no offense but I followed the raptors that year and when we played the 76ers in the 2nd round we were 1 shot away from making it to the eastern conference finals. I think adding Tracy near his prime would have put us over the top... And again Philly made it to the finals.... Sooooooooooooooooooooo...

What is your reasoning or logic as to why you think they wouldn't have won a championship?

ghettosean
07-07-2011, 03:16 PM
At the very least he would have got out of the 1st round... LOL... Poor dumb Tracy! I hope he enjoyed being the man cause he sure looked like THE MAN in that video.

Good for him!

ghettosean
07-07-2011, 03:17 PM
He is better mentality than Tmac at least.
I hate to say it because I hate Lebron waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than Tracy (I don't really have too many hard feelings on T-Mac aside from him cutting up the franchise on his way out).

But I agree with you!

JordansBulls
07-07-2011, 04:38 PM
Dude no offense but I followed the raptors that year and when we played the 76ers in the 2nd round we were 1 shot away from making it to the eastern conference finals. I think adding Tracy near his prime would have put us over the top... And again Philly made it to the finals.... Sooooooooooooooooooooo...

What is your reasoning or logic as to why you think they wouldn't have won a championship?

They weren't good enough to beat the Lakers. Not efficient enough to outplay Shaq.

JordansBulls
07-09-2011, 11:16 PM
I hate to say it because I hate Lebron waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than Tracy (I don't really have too many hard feelings on T-Mac aside from him cutting up the franchise on his way out).

But I agree with you!

Yep. But I do think Mcgrady's mentality changed by 2007.

JordansBulls
07-12-2011, 01:18 PM
No he left because he wanted to play closer to home alongside a superior star in Grant Hill. The money, the playing time, and the increased role were all promised to Tmac before even becoming a FA. Hell it was happening mid-season, but Toronto isnt home, and he didnt exactly like playing alongside Vince.

I thought it was because he was in Vince's shadow.

Missing56&33
07-12-2011, 01:41 PM
What is the reason that Tracy Mcgrady was never on a team higher than a 5th seed?


I can understand why in Orlando this was the case, but in Houston, I just can't understand how with Yao Ming even when healthy they never got higher than the 5th seed in any year. Sure they had HCA in 2007 and 2008 due to the better record, but this is surprising to say the least. I mean many give Iverson a hard time saying you can't build around him, but at least once in his career he managed to lead a team to the top seed.




Overall Averages for T-mac for the Rockets in the Season

Season

Games 297 / 23.2 PPG / 5.6 RPG / 5.7 APG / 1.33 SPG / 0.6 BPG / 42% FG / 27% 3 PT / 20.1-21.5 PER



Here are the Overall Averages for Yao for the Rockets in the Season

Season

Games 317 / 24.2 PPG / 9.6 RPG / 1.6 APG / 0.4 SPG / 1.9 BPG / 53% FG / 23.7-25.5 PER






Overall Averages for T-mac for the Rockets in the Playoffs


Playoffs

Games 20 / 27.7 PPG / 7.1 RPG / 6.9 APG / 1.2 SPG / 1.0 BPG / 43% FG / 29% 3 PT / 24.0-25.5 PER



Here are the Overall Averages for Yao for the Rockets in the Playoffs


Playoffs

Games 23 / 20.9 PPG / 9.7 RPG / 0.9 APG / 0.3 SPG / 1.5 BPG / 53% FG / 23.0-24.5 PER

I think because Tmac just wasn't a closer and more of a highlight reel than anything. He could put up good numbers and make the all star team but he couldn't close games and win big games. He was suppose to be that kind of player but it never materialized.

JordansBulls
07-12-2011, 05:05 PM
I think because Tmac just wasn't a closer and more of a highlight reel than anything. He could put up good numbers and make the all star team but he couldn't close games and win big games. He was suppose to be that kind of player but it never materialized.

In what sense was Tmac just a highlight reel?

marj987
07-14-2011, 12:49 AM
At the very least he would have got out of the 1st round... LOL... Poor dumb Tracy! I hope he enjoyed being the man cause he sure looked like THE MAN in that video.

Good for him!

http://www.kingofforwards.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/mdvirgin.jpg

MackShock
07-14-2011, 01:04 AM
didnt they have artest with them for a couple years?

it makes it hard to sign other great players when two are making 20mill annually..unless your the lakers..

JordansBulls
07-14-2011, 01:31 PM
didnt they have artest with them for a couple years?

it makes it hard to sign other great players when two are making 20mill annually..unless your the lakers..

They only had Artest one year.

Missing56&33
07-14-2011, 02:04 PM
In what sense was Tmac just a highlight reel?

He was very creative around the basket and could finish with authority and flash. When Isiah Thomas drafted him he was banking on a Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady Marcus Camby dynasty......pretty good picks if you ask me but lets be real TMac and Vince Carter were nothing more than highlight on sports center ......they made it to the playoffs a few years but nothing serious enough to be considered contenders. Tmac has some Jordaness in him and some scottie Pippen as well but he would not show up in crunch time.

He may not win the game but there will be some unbelievable moves during the game that would get you out your seat.

buch88
07-14-2011, 08:42 PM
injuries

buch88
07-14-2011, 08:43 PM
I hate to say it because I hate Lebron waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than Tracy (I don't really have too many hard feelings on T-Mac aside from him cutting up the franchise on his way out).

But I agree with you!

u dont hate lebron. u only think u hate lebron. lol

JordansBulls
07-15-2011, 11:43 AM
u dont hate lebron. u only think u hate lebron. lol

What does this have to do with anything?

JordansBulls
08-05-2011, 02:51 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2002.html

44-38, Finished 3rd in NBA Atlantic Division (Schedule and Results)
Coach: Doc Rivers (44-38)

PTS/G: 100.5 (4th of 29) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 98.9 (27th of 29)
SRS: 1.25 (12th of 29) ▪ Pace: 93.2 (3rd of 29)
Off Rtg: 107.0 (7th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 105.3 (16th of 29)
Expected W-L: 46-36 (12th of 29)



http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHH/2002.html

44-38, Finished 2nd in NBA Central Division (Schedule and Results)
Coach: Paul Silas (44-38)

PTS/G: 93.9 (20th of 29) ▪ Opp PTS/G: 92.9 (7th of 29)
SRS: 0.56 (14th of 29) ▪ Pace: 89.7 (22nd of 29)
Off Rtg: 104.3 (15th of 29) ▪ Def Rtg: 103.3 (10th of 29)
Expected W-L: 44-38 (13th of 29)


These teams were the 4th and 5th seed with the same record. Orlando had the higher expected win loss record and the higher SRS rating, the higher ppg average differential.
This is a series he could have won.

I didn't think the Magic were seeded that high when Mcgrady was around.

thapastime7
08-05-2011, 03:02 PM
to answer the question its bc he is well was a poor man kobe for a team so team would build around him and he was in the west.

Chronz
08-06-2011, 02:09 AM
This is a series he could have won.

I didn't think the Magic were seeded that high when Mcgrady was around.
ANYONE could theoretically win a series but make no mistake, Tmac did not have the better TEAMMATES. I mean did you even watch the series? Did you not see one CLEARLY more athletic team with an ascending core vs a team that was throwing out 39 year old Patrick Ewing and Horace Grant (36) struggling to keep pace? The Magic had a horrible blend of too old or too young, only Darrel Armstrong was technically still near his prime and he was 33. Mike Miller (21) was really the only other talented guy on the team but he showed his age in the playoffs.

Tmac had to do EVERYTHING, he had to cover Baron because DA would get destroyed in the post, when they didnt want Tmac on Baron they would go zone and all Tmac would do is play center and provide help. I mean have you ever heard of that from ANY SG. Only a team that is lacking in the talent department would ask so much from a player, luckily for them Tmac was as gifted as he was and could carry the load, at least until his body finally gave out.

JordansBulls
08-07-2011, 09:17 AM
ANYONE could theoretically win a series but make no mistake, Tmac did not have the better TEAMMATES. I mean did you even watch the series? Did you not see one CLEARLY more athletic team with an ascending core vs a team that was throwing out 39 year old Patrick Ewing and Horace Grant (36) struggling to keep pace? The Magic had a horrible blend of too old or too young, only Darrel Armstrong was technically still near his prime and he was 33. Mike Miller (21) was really the only other talented guy on the team but he showed his age in the playoffs.

Tmac had to do EVERYTHING, he had to cover Baron because DA would get destroyed in the post, when they didnt want Tmac on Baron they would go zone and all Tmac would do is play center and provide help. I mean have you ever heard of that from ANY SG. Only a team that is lacking in the talent department would ask so much from a player, luckily for them Tmac was as gifted as he was and could carry the load, at least until his body finally gave out.

It would be nice to rewatch some of the games of that series, because when you look it doesn't seem like the Hornets was that good.

Chronz
08-07-2011, 02:57 PM
I have every playoff game of Tmacs career, I can send you a dvd if you wish

JordansBulls
08-07-2011, 03:09 PM
I have every playoff game of Tmacs career, I can send you a dvd if you wish

Sure man. Do you sell on ioffer? I'll give you money for it.

Chronz
08-07-2011, 09:14 PM
Never heard of it and I don't think I want to leave a paper trail for something like that, though I'm not sure if its illegal because I have baught some from another collector, but truth be told you could probably download most of them through torrents and M2.

JordansBulls
08-07-2011, 10:37 PM
Never heard of it and I don't think I want to leave a paper trail for something like that, though I'm not sure if its illegal because I have baught some from another collector, but truth be told you could probably download most of them through torrents and M2.

How often do you watch them and mainly which games do you watch? I mean of Tmac's playoff games.

Chronz
08-08-2011, 12:40 AM
I don't watch any of them, im mainly looking for vintage dream/shaq games, I remember you gave a link to a bunch of games, you still got it?

JordansBulls
08-09-2011, 12:57 PM
I don't watch any of them, im mainly looking for vintage dream/shaq games, I remember you gave a link to a bunch of games, you still got it?

So you keep them as collectors items?

Chronz
08-09-2011, 05:46 PM
So you keep them as collectors items?
Ill watch them eventually but yea Ive downloaded so many games without watching them, I guess Im a hoarder. PM me a PO Box or something and Ill mail the disk whenever I can.

Or I can link you to some downloads for a few of them if you wish, if there are some other games your looking for let me know.

Dr.J>YOU
08-13-2011, 05:34 PM
Because the guy was not a winner.

JordansBulls
08-31-2011, 12:15 PM
Because the guy was not a winner.

Yes, this is true if you think he didn't show up in the playoffs, however results say otherwise.

Stack_NJNets
08-31-2011, 03:25 PM
I think if he would of join the Bulls and play as their SG, that he would earn his respect. But instead he join Detroit???:down:

He only got two offers last summer, one from Detroit and one from the Clippers.

JordansBulls
09-01-2011, 12:42 PM
He only got two offers last summer, one from Detroit and one from the Clippers.

Yeah I think the Bulls were upset on how he turned them down back in 2001.

CowboysKB24
09-02-2011, 11:29 PM
Give up people. McGrady is just not what people think. Whatever the case maybe (the west too strong, no supporting cast, injuries, etc), he did not get it done in the playoffs EVER. He won what? One series when he was injured?

KingPosey
09-03-2011, 12:02 AM
INJURIES INJURIES INJURIES INJURIES

REALLY GOOD WEST REALLY GOOD WEST REALLY GOOD WEST.

How many times is he gonna catch **** for this?

And for the thread that will for sure be up tomorrow about him being a playoff choker, TMac has some of the best playoff numbers of all time in the games he has played.

JordansBulls
09-04-2011, 10:57 AM
Give up people. McGrady is just not what people think. Whatever the case maybe (the west too strong, no supporting cast, injuries, etc), he did not get it done in the playoffs EVER. He won what? One series when he was injured?

:confused: