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Jewelz0376
03-21-2011, 12:38 AM
I was watching a video post in lakers forum about Rose winning mvp and Greg Anthony says that Rose could be considered the best player in the league in a couple seasons..

http://sports.yahoo.com/video/player/nba/Y_Sports_NBA_Coverage/24483246#nba/Y_Sports_NBA_Coverage/24483246

says it around 50 sec mark

Do you think Rose could be the best player in the league in 2 seasons?? He is most likely going to win mvp in his 3rd season, making him the youngest mvp ever at 22 yrs old.. (unseld won in his rookie year but he was 23)... He has shown he has a good enough work ethic by the improvement in his jump shot compared to what it used to be, but idk about being the best....I think it might be D12 or Durant before Rose...even Griffin has a shot at it...but I want to see what psd thinks...

Cubs Win
03-21-2011, 12:42 AM
With his work ethic, is it a possibilty? Sure.

More-Than-Most
03-21-2011, 12:46 AM
He will most likely be the best PG... That being said with guys like James/Blake/Howard/Durant it will be extremely tough for him. I doubt he will be the best player but best PG is looking more and more likely.

Hustlenomics
03-21-2011, 12:46 AM
he won't be better than Durant,Lebron,or Howard in a couple seasons

KH12
03-21-2011, 12:48 AM
This will turn out well.

D1JM
03-21-2011, 12:51 AM
Can't wait to see how this goes

More-Than-Most
03-21-2011, 12:51 AM
This will turn out well.

It will if people try and keep general hate and Bias aside

Probably wishful thinking on my part.

MJ-BULLS
03-21-2011, 12:52 AM
nobody thought he could win the mvp award before the season even began. :shrug:

with his work ethic and determination to become great, i dont see why he can.

GoatMilk
03-21-2011, 12:52 AM
^i picked him preseason :P. me and a select group of bulls fans are the only ones

dont like the shooting percentage. too much of a volume shooter, but im sure he'll fix it

he's going to be a legitimate 25/10 guy, which is insane
so sure, it's possible

More-Than-Most
03-21-2011, 12:53 AM
nobody thought he could win the mvp award before the season even began. :shrug:

with his work ethic and determination to become great, i dont see why he can.

I have not watched rose enough on the defensive side yet. Give me a break down of his defensive play and where it ranks?

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 12:54 AM
Lebron James might go down as a top 5 player in the history of basketball. I just don't see it as even remotely possible that Rose passes him for #1. No disrespect intended, just pointing out that Lebron kind of has #1 locked down for a long while, barring an unfortunate injury.

More-Than-Most
03-21-2011, 12:54 AM
^i picked him preseason :P. me and a select group of bulls fans are the only ones

dont like the shooting percentage. too much of a volume shooter, but im sure he'll fix it

he's going to be a legitimate 25/10 guy, which is insane
so sure, it's possible

How long do you think he could sustain 25-10? By seasons I mean... Like a 3 season window or more... That is incredible and he could do it but for how long

Sadds The Gr8
03-21-2011, 12:54 AM
nope

COBY KARL
03-21-2011, 12:55 AM
This will turn out well.

love your sig. we should be friends.

More-Than-Most
03-21-2011, 12:55 AM
Lebron James might go down as a top 5 player in the history of basketball. I just don't see it as even remotely possible that Rose passes him for #1. No disrespect intended, just pointing out that Lebron kind of has #1 locked down for a long while, barring an unfortunate injury.

Not sure about this either. Its likely but not a lock... Also Durant might eventually have something to say about that.

six
03-21-2011, 12:58 AM
He does have a great work ethic. He is improving way too fast to not be considered the best in a couple of seasons. So I can defiantly see it happening.

knickfan4life
03-21-2011, 12:58 AM
reason why i say nah is cuz u have guys like... dwight, lebron, durant and rose himself... in the league who havent even peaked yet... its scary to see how good these guys can be when they reach max potential.

BcEuAbRsS
03-21-2011, 12:58 AM
Nope... not tall enough... best PG? No doubt IMO...

Raps18-19 Champ
03-21-2011, 12:58 AM
I'm not sure.

Lebron is dominating the league and he still hasn't reached his best IMO at 26.

Lebron will keep getting the 27, 7 and 7 he's been getting for the next 4 years at least.

When Lebron starts to drop in his 30's, Durant would be scoring like 35 PPG as he will be in his mid 20's and in his prime.

We would also have to consider the players coming in to the league who could dominate as soon as they come in.

Rose is going to be a top 5 player though in 2-3 years if not already.

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 01:03 AM
He still has a long way to go to catch CP3 as best PG, never mind best player. I don't think people relaize just how ****ing good CP3 is. He's playing better now than John Stockton did at the same age. And he hasn't been surrounded w/ much talent in NO either. If he goes to NY and plays w/ Melo and Amare, I think he might go down as one of, if not the best, PGs of all time, assuming good health of course (which is not a given).

More-Than-Most
03-21-2011, 01:05 AM
He still has a long way to go to catch CP3 as best PG, never mind best player. I don't think people relaize just how ****ing good CP3 is. He's playing better now than John Stockton did at the same age. And he hasn't been surrounded w/ much talent in NO either. If he goes to NY and plays w/ Melo and Amare, I think he might go down as one of, if not the best, PGs of all time, assuming good health of course (which is not a given).

Agreed on CP3. People really underrate him.

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 01:06 AM
Right now I have Rose at #10 in the NBA:

Lebron
Kobe
Wade
Dwight
CP3
Durant
Dirk
Melo
D-Will
Rose

By the end of next season, I think Rose will move up to #8, jumping D-Will and Melo. By the end of the following season, I think he will jump Dirk. Kobe and Wade are probably going to start declining at that point, and heavily too IMO.

More-Than-Most
03-21-2011, 01:09 AM
Right now I have Rose at #10 in the NBA:

Lebron
Kobe
Wade
Dwight
CP3
Durant
Dirk
Melo
D-Will
Rose

By the end of next season, I think Rose will move up to #8, jumping D-Will and Melo. By the end of the following season, I think he will jump Dirk. Kobe and Wade are probably going to start declining at that point, and heavily too IMO.

Names I doubt he passes anytime soon.

lakeshow3peat
03-21-2011, 01:10 AM
lebron not the best so rose has a chance to be but i think durant will be the best if not blake griffin will be

OaklandsFinest
03-21-2011, 01:10 AM
Kevin Durant right now is the best scorer in the league, however he is no where near discussion for best player in the league when Russell Westbrook is the best player on that team..

Back to Derrick Rose, I think he will be 1B within the next year or so. He'll get his shooting percentage up, and with Tom Thibideau coaching him he will become a lock down defender at that position. He and Lebron will I think be tied for best player in the league just in different ways, with Lebron having a slight edge. Number two being Dwight Howard and number 3 being Dwyane Wade. Number 4 being Chris Paul and 5 being Deron Williams.

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 01:12 AM
Names I doubt he passes anytime soon.

I'd switch Wade w/ CP3. Especially if CP3 goes to NY w/ Melo and Amare. That team wouldn't have enough depth to win in the playoffs (NY is set up horribly IMO). But their "Big 3" would put up monster regular season individual stats.

Wade, to me, is a guy that will have a steep decline. W/ his injury history and the nature of the SG position, I think Rose should pass him in a few seasons, like 2-3.

bringinwood
03-21-2011, 01:14 AM
He defines volume shooter...

He's Iversonesque...

For a guy that takes over 20 shots a game and to have 24.9 PPG, he's largely inefficient...

I would say he needs to become the best PG in basketball before he has a chance to become the best player in basketball...

BcEuAbRsS
03-21-2011, 01:14 AM
Agreed on CP3. People really underrate him.

I honestly do... I dont watch him hardly ever... but a look at his basic stats suggest the he has been on the decline the past 3 seasons...

bringinwood
03-21-2011, 01:17 AM
I honestly do... I dont watch him hardly ever... but a look at his basic stats suggest the he has been on the decline the past 3 seasons...

He's been hurt the past 3 seasons...

He's still the most efficient point guard in the league... Therefore, the best point guard in the league...

Even with him hurt, he still has a better overall stat line than Rose...

LA_Raiders
03-21-2011, 01:17 AM
in 3-5 years maybe

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 01:19 AM
He defines volume shooter...

He's Iversonesque...

For a guy that takes over 20 shots a game and to have 24.9 PPG, he's largely inefficient...

I would say he needs to become the best PG in basketball before he has a chance to become the best player in basketball...

He's a better passer/team player than AI. Is he the most efficient scorer? Hell no. But he's not your typical volume shooter. He's a true stud w/ a bright future (and present).

Rose's current PER (22.9) would be the 4th highest of AI's career. And he still has room to grow.

GoatMilk
03-21-2011, 01:20 AM
How long do you think he could sustain 25-10? By seasons I mean... Like a 3 season window or more... That is incredible and he could do it but for how long

even if he puts it up for a season, it's incredible

even if he's not 25/10, he'll be pretty close. 25/26 and 8 or 9

BcEuAbRsS
03-21-2011, 01:24 AM
He's been hurt the past 3 seasons...
He's still the most efficient point guard in the league... Therefore, the best point guard in the league...

Even with him hurt, he still has a better overall stat line than Rose...

Thats why I see it being very possible... CP3 is more efficient but if he isnt on the floor he obviously isnt helping his team now is he...

Duncan = Donkey
03-21-2011, 01:25 AM
Inefficient Scoring Guards do get into this discussion so its possible

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 01:26 AM
Thats why I see it being very possible... CP3 is prolly more efficient but if he isnt on the floor he obviously isnt helping his team now is he...

He really only missed time last year. If he manages to play the rest of the games this year, he will play in 80 games. That would mean at least 78 games in 4 of his 6 years. One year, he played 64, which isn't too bad. Last year was a lost cause w/ 45, but other than that he hasn't really had problems staying on the court.

More-Than-Most
03-21-2011, 01:27 AM
Not sure anyone answered me. How is Rose defense? Honest question... I dont watch him often.

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 01:29 AM
Inefficient Scoring Guards do get into this discussion so its possible

I think that PER is a decent indicator of efficiency. And Rose has a higher one this year than Steve Nash. Just sayin... Rose is not just a chucker. I can't figure out for the life of me why people say that. Is it because of the constant ball washing he gets for homer Bulls fans? You can't underrate him just to offset the massive overrating he gets from a lot of Bulls fans. That's stupid.

Hustlenomics
03-21-2011, 01:29 AM
Not sure anyone answered me. How is Rose defense? Honest question... I dont watch him often.

you know its bad lol

BcEuAbRsS
03-21-2011, 01:30 AM
He really only missed time last year. If he manages to play the rest of the games this year, he will play in 80 games. That would mean at least 78 games in 4 of his 6 years. One year, he played 64, which isn't too bad. Last year was a lost cause w/ 45, but other than that he hasn't really had problems staying on the court.

Then that will make this one of his worst years as a pro then... Im not hating on CP3 cause Im a Chicago fan and nost an actual NBA fan... I understand the basics and what a good FG% is and all... but 3 straight seaspms of decline isnt a good sign...

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 01:30 AM
Not sure anyone answered me. How is Rose defense? Honest question... I dont watch him often.

Statistically he's made huge strides this year. But he was pretty bad his first 2 years so I'm still a little skeptical. I'd like to see more before I really accept this season's impressive performance as what he is rather than a blip on the radar.

bringinwood
03-21-2011, 01:30 AM
He's a better passer/team player than AI. Is he the most efficient scorer? Hell no. But he's not your typical volume shooter. He's a true stud w/ a bright future (and present).

Rose's current PER (22.9) would be the 4th highest of AI's career. And he still has room to grow.

Agreed with the room to grow and how Rose is a better passer... However, the AI comparison is pretty relative to Rose's game with Iverson being the much better defender...

Iverson had a 22.5 PER in his 3 season... Rose has a 22.9... Pretty close...

They both shoulder the load of the offense for their teams... Iverson, out of necessity, had to shoulder much more of the offensive load than Rose...

Rose is still a volume shooter... He is very comparable to Iverson ( at least through 3 seasons)...

BcEuAbRsS
03-21-2011, 01:32 AM
you know its bad lol

I wouldnt say "bad"... he is average...

Sadds The Gr8
03-21-2011, 01:32 AM
Not sure anyone answered me. How is Rose defense? Honest question... I dont watch him often.

pretty bad

More-Than-Most
03-21-2011, 01:32 AM
you know its bad lol

Swear I didn't know.

Some people have said but their opinions are bias and its mainly brought up during rondo/Rose discussions of hatred. I was looking for someone to break it down.

More-Than-Most
03-21-2011, 01:32 AM
Statistically he's made huge strides this year. But he was pretty bad his first 2 years so I'm still a little skeptical. I'd like to see more before I really accept this season's impressive performance as what he is rather than a blip on the radar.

Thanks HPF:clap:

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 01:33 AM
Then that will make this one of his worst years as a pro then... Im not hating on CP3 cause Im a Chicago fan and nost an actual NBA fan... I understand the basics and what a good FG% is and all... but 3 straight seaspms of decline isnt a good sign...

He hasn't declined this year though. His PPG did, but that's because he's shooting less. His APG have, but that's because he doesn't have scorers around him. His advanced stats, w/ the exception of eFG%, are up across the board.

More-Than-Most
03-21-2011, 01:35 AM
Ok so now people are saying pretty bad. Me in my own opinion... I have problems with putting a player in the top 5 that cant play defense. Can rose up his defense to at least respectable in the next few seasons?

BcEuAbRsS
03-21-2011, 01:35 AM
He hasn't declined this year though. His PPG did, but that's because he's shooting less. His APG have, but that's because he doesn't have scorers around him. His advanced stats, w/ the exception of eFG%, are up across the board.

Then why doesnt he shoot more since he doesnt have the scorers around him?

BcEuAbRsS
03-21-2011, 01:36 AM
Ok so now people are saying pretty bad. Me in my own opinion... I have problems with putting a player in the top 5 that cant play defense. Can rose up his defense to at least respectable in the next few seasons?

Those ppl are wrong... he is nowhere near great but he isnt bad either... he is pretty average...

bringinwood
03-21-2011, 01:38 AM
Thats why I see it being very possible... CP3 is more efficient but if he isnt on the floor he obviously isnt helping his team now is he...

He still isn't catching Paul for awhile...

Paul is a better shooter from the field overall, better 3 pt %, better FT %, less turnovers, more rebounds, more assists, and vastly superior defender...

Lake_Show2416
03-21-2011, 01:41 AM
Durant, Dwight and Lebron are all going to be hard to get past

but he can for sure become a consensus top 3 or 5

John Walls Era
03-21-2011, 01:41 AM
Maybe if he shoots the ball better (FG% dipping this year) and improves his defense.

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 01:42 AM
Then why doesnt he shoot more since he doesnt have the scorers around him?

NO is having a great year record wise, especially considering their talent level and the fact that they not only play in the west, but also in the same division as DAL and SA.

CP3 is really single handedly making that team. He's, statistically, having his best defensive season. He is only averaging 2 less points than last year, despite taking 3 shots less. Basically, he's making the team better not by taking more shots, but by focusing on being even more efficient offensively and better defensively.

Sox72
03-21-2011, 01:43 AM
the only thing that confuses me about any of the posts in here are how people thing blake could be the top player in a couple years.

THE MTL
03-21-2011, 01:44 AM
Lebron James & Kevin Durant out drinking or something???? Cause they will be the two best for the next couple of seasons.

Dont forget about Dwade (could Rose still put up those numbers playing with Bron and Bosh nope....but Wade still can).

He could be top 5 in the NBA and gain the ELITE crown as well. And even battle for best PG in the NBA. However, due to Rose's scoring mentality, I dont think you could ever put him in the true PG category in which guys like John Wall, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, etc will always get the nod.

Gators123
03-21-2011, 01:45 AM
Doubt it

shizzle09
03-21-2011, 01:46 AM
Lebron James might go down as a top 5 player in the history of basketball. I just don't see it as even remotely possible that Rose passes him for #1. No disrespect intended, just pointing out that Lebron kind of has #1 locked down for a long while, barring an unfortunate injury.

x2

More-Than-Most
03-21-2011, 01:47 AM
the only thing that confuses me about any of the posts in here are how people thing blake could be the top player in a couple years.

Why not?

BcEuAbRsS
03-21-2011, 01:47 AM
Offense: 31.2 (5)

Defense: 37.7 (2)

Total: 68.9

When it comes to raw production, D-Rose produces more than any point guard in the NBA. However, as some readers pointed out, previously I didn't account for missed field goals. Putting those in the equation drops him down to fifth.

It's the addition of defense that has some surprising results, though. Many have pointed to his huge bump in three-point field goal percentage, a good 12 percent climb. However, his defensive improvement is even more remarkable. It's what won him the starting job on the national team.

Give credit to coach Tom Thibodeau, but also give some to him. He put in a lot of hard work on it this summer and it's evidently paying off. It's visible in both his Opponent PER of 12.9 (third best among the 26) and his 103 DRtg (4th best).

He's been doing a better job of getting in front of the opponent, challenging shots and, particularly since New York, fighting through screens. His DRtg over the last 15 games is 96.7, which would be the best of any PG in the league.

He's not only one of the best defending point guards in the NBA right now, he's on his way to becoming the best. With Thibs' almost manic coaching of that end of the court, he can only get better.

I would also point out that while Rose might not be the top of the list, I believe he is the top candidate among all point guards as MVP. No team relies on their point guard more for their offense than the Bulls do Rose.

*This was from Jan 7th 2011

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/566147-nba-power-rankings-rajon-rondo-derrick-rose-and-the-10-best-point-guards#page/1

mttwlsn16
03-21-2011, 01:49 AM
before clicking this i said to myself "ya i could see it" and then that was exactly an option for the poll lol...but lebron, blake, durant, will give him a run for his money. He deserves MVP this year imo, and when its all said and done he will go down as one of the GOAT

THE MTL
03-21-2011, 01:49 AM
the only thing that confuses me about any of the posts in here are how people thing blake could be the top player in a couple years.


I dont see it either. However, many ppl say that he is running on pure talent and has to learn and master the NBA game and if its hypothesis is true than he'll be really scary.

But he still wont touch Lebron.

mttwlsn16
03-21-2011, 01:51 AM
Why not?

thats what im saying. the guy is a rookie and already is a tremendous talent. NBA hasnt seen a rookie like blake since lebron entered the league...he will work on his J and defense and imo will be a true force in a year or 2...man to think the clippers could have the best player in the NBA :drool: lol

good luck to rose and the bulls in the playoffs tho...theyre who im rooting for since LAC is wayyyyy out

More-Than-Most
03-21-2011, 01:57 AM
Also sidenote... 10000th post club baby Lol

BcEuAbRsS
03-21-2011, 02:03 AM
Defensive Win Shares

2010-11 NBA 4.1 (10)

he is 10th in the NBA in D win shares...

shizzle09
03-21-2011, 02:05 AM
Rose wont be passing Lebron, Wade or Howard anytime soon. Top PG is a more realistic discussion.

BcEuAbRsS
03-21-2011, 02:09 AM
Rose wont be passing Lebron, Wade or Howard anytime soon. Top PG is a more realistic discussion.

I agree... he is simply too small...

DaBear
03-21-2011, 02:19 AM
I think he's already the best PG in the NBA, and I think he'll continue to be that for a long time. Best player? No. LeBron, Howard, and Durant are better.

Bruno
03-21-2011, 02:23 AM
I wouldn't put it past him. His will to win is on a truly elite level. He's learned how to make his teammates better. It takes some of the best years to figure this out; he already has it in year three.

With that being said, he still has work to do. MVP is different than best player in the league.

KH12
03-21-2011, 02:25 AM
I've seen every game of his career, and Rose's defense is very underrated. He's worked so hard at it since coming into the league, and with the help of Thibodeau and a good defensive team around him, he has definitely turned a weakness into a strength. Is he a top-notch defender? No, but he certainly holds his own against the league's bests. Hell, he just held Deron Williams to 1-12 shooting on Thursday.

tredigs
03-21-2011, 02:37 AM
I've seen every game of his career, and Rose's defense is very underrated. He's worked so hard at it since coming into the league, and with the help of Thibodeau and a good defensive team around him, he has definitely turned a weakness into a strength. Is he a top-notch defender? No, but he certainly holds his own against the league's bests. Hell, he just held Deron Williams to 1-12 shooting on Thursday.

^I noticed more than a few Bulls fans mentioning this since that game.

D. Williams wrist is severely messed up right now. He went 4/13 the game after; shooting 32% overall while in NJ. Now he's taking the week off and may shut it down for the season.

To answer the thread's question: I highly, highly doubt it barring the death of Lebron James, Kevin Durant, D. Wade, and Dwight Howard...

I would agree with others that "leagues best PG" is a more realistic personal goal for him. And with John Wall, Westbrook, Cp3, D. Williams, etc. That's not going to be an easy sell either.

flclfanman
03-21-2011, 02:37 AM
Could he be a no brainer top 5 player in 2 years? Absolutely

Best player in the NBA? Not while D12 and LBJ are doing work.

ElMarroAfamado
03-21-2011, 02:40 AM
he already has a better jumper than Lebrick so i dont see why not...

Bullsfan22
03-21-2011, 02:42 AM
People that call him a bad defender is flat out wrong and has no basis for that opinion. He's an average to sightly above average defender. he struggles from mental lapses but evens it out with elite shot contesting abilities for his position.

ChI_ShIzzLe
03-21-2011, 02:47 AM
^I noticed more than a few Bulls fans mentioning this since that game.

D. Williams wrist is severely messed up right now. He went 4/13 the game after; shooting 32% overall while in NJ. Now he's taking the week off and may shut it down for the season.

To answer the thread's question: I highly, highly doubt it barring the death of Lebron James, Kevin Durant, D. Wade, and Dwight Howard...

I would agree with others that "leagues best PG" is a more realistic personal goal for him. And with John Wall, Westbrook, Cp3, D. Williams, etc. That's not going to be an easy sell either.

With the exception of Westbrook in game 1 of the season, and 1 game against DJ Augustin, I don't recall any other games where the opposing PG has gone off on him (used to happen regularly under Del Negro). Even if someone had a decent game, he's destroyed them on the other end so it didn't even matter.

Riosjl41
03-21-2011, 02:49 AM
Only players id take ahead of him are possibly lebron, howard, and durant. no thank you to dwade, i don't see him lasting too much longer. :shrug:

vl90
03-21-2011, 02:50 AM
he already has a better jumper than Lebrick so i dont see why not...

i get the Lechoke thing but i never got the Lebrick thing ive seen my fair share of bball of very good players hitting bricks also ?

ChI_ShIzzLe
03-21-2011, 02:51 AM
People that call him a bad defender is flat out wrong and has no basis for that opinion. He's an average to sightly above average defender. he struggles from mental lapses but evens it out with elite shot contesting abilities for his position.

He leads all PGs in blocked shots and is 2nd behind Wade amongst all Guards.

ilstubirds
03-21-2011, 02:52 AM
With the exception of Westbrook in game 1 of the season, and 1 game against DJ Augustin, I don't recall any other games where the opposing PG has gone off on him (used to happen regularly under Del Negro). Even if someone had a decent game, he's destroyed them on the other end so it didn't even matter.

Andre Miller shredding him and Batum's comments after that game are the reasons his defense get questioned. But since those comments, he's been on lockdown.

JiffyMix88
03-21-2011, 02:54 AM
i think a lot of ppl think chris paul is as good as he was during the 07'-08', 08'-09' season and thats a mistake.

John Walls Era
03-21-2011, 02:55 AM
he already has a better jumper than Lebrick so i dont see why not...

Clearly not. Shooting 43 percent this year. Just because you see him make them in a few highlights doesn't mean much.

PS: Blake Griffin will NEVER be the best player in the league. Rose at least has a decent chance, Griffin has almost none; just because you can dunk doesn't mean you can dominate.

ChI_ShIzzLe
03-21-2011, 03:01 AM
Andre Miller shredding him and Batum's comments after that game are the reasons his defense get questioned. But since those comments, he's been on lockdown.

He still has to improve on the pick n roll, which has caused him the most problems this season. I forgot to mention the first game against the Knicks also. But I agree since that Portland game (I've watched every game this season) he's taken his defense to another level. Those back to back games against D-Will and CP3 really stood out.

LN=EVER,FN=G8ST
03-21-2011, 03:19 AM
Top 5 yes no.1 no

There will still be Kobe lebron wade durant Dwight Paul etc.

LN=EVER,FN=G8ST
03-21-2011, 03:22 AM
Clearly not. Shooting 43 percent this year. Just because you see him make them in a few highlights doesn't mean much.

PS: Blake Griffin will NEVER be the best player in the league. Rose at least has a decent chance, Griffin has almost none; just because you can dunk doesn't mean you can dominate.

Who says griffin can't be the best... He's got mad potential he just has to work on his post up game free throws and help defense! IMO he has a > then rose at being NO.1

AIRMAR72
03-21-2011, 03:30 AM
i dont think Rose MVP material this season at all he needs to play better D and fight thru picks or rotate around it with some purpose to be MVP its FACT guning BALL HOGGIN PG can only take a TEAM but so far da bull are very talented that is why they wining im not knocking rose cause hes very good player who explode to basket with thrust and passion but hes a shoot first guy who dont pass the BALL within the flow of da game(offense) and being small(rose) that will hurt the team in the end with his style and HIS my shot 1st mentality to ME rose is not in the same league as Chris Paul deron W. rondo(when healthy) or ty lawson and spencer for as runing a TEAM efficiently but rose is a better scorer playing at the position THAN ALL OF THEM

Supreme LA
03-21-2011, 03:33 AM
Lebron James might go down as a top 5 player in the history of basketball. I just don't see it as even remotely possible that Rose passes him for #1. No disrespect intended, just pointing out that Lebron kind of has #1 locked down for a long while, barring an unfortunate injury.

How is Lebron the best player in the league if Wade is the best player on his team???:confused:

Jewelz0376
03-21-2011, 03:35 AM
As of right now I'm i think it Rose will have a hard time passing Durant, D12, or Lebron...but I'm curious to see how Rose will perform in the playoffs

No_Sympathy
03-21-2011, 04:14 AM
Rose won't be better than Wade, Lebron, Durant, or Howard in the next 2 years. I can see him becoming the best PG but thats where it ends.

brodawgs
03-21-2011, 04:18 AM
Lebron James might go down as a top 5 player in the history of basketball. I just don't see it as even remotely possible that Rose passes him for #1. No disrespect intended, just pointing out that Lebron kind of has #1 locked down for a long while, barring an unfortunate injury.

This.

Unless Lebron has a significant injury or the monstars come down from Mars and steal his talent, it won't be until Lebron's age gets up there and his skills begin to naturally decline when somebody else becomes the best player in the NBA.

Wade>You
03-21-2011, 04:18 AM
It amazes me how much pull Chicago has with the media. Don't let Jerry Reinsdorf fool ya.

effen5
03-21-2011, 04:23 AM
It amazes me how much pull Chicago has with the media. Don't let Jerry Reinsdorf fool ya.

wat :confused:

theSPECIALKID
03-21-2011, 04:42 AM
I wouldn't put it past him. His will to win is on a truly elite level. He's learned how to make his teammates better. It takes some of the best years to figure this out; he already has it in year three.

With that being said, he still has work to do. MVP is different than best player in the league.

I agree with this.... He's still got a long way to go, but with his worth ethic I wouldn't be surprised... And those saying Rose isn't a good defender are crazy... According to Synergy Rose is an elite defender at the PG position... I still see he's has that perception from his first 2 years in the league.

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/19/rose-dwarfs-other-improvements-with-defense/


All of that makes for a pretty impressive résumé, but neglects the most drastic improvement in Rose’s game this season; whether due to natural evolution, Tom Thibodeau’s tutelage, or his time with the defense-first Team U.S.A., Rose has learned to use his incredible physical gifts more effectively on the defensive end, and has become into one of the league’s most surprisingly effective perimeter defenders.


Rose is just 22, and a year removed from being a part-time liability on the defensive end. Not only has he shattered expectations for his defensive improvement this season, but Rose has a legitimate claim as a plus defender while playing at the most difficult position in the league.


More outstanding yet are Rose’s individual defensive numbers. According to Synergy Sports Technology, Rose has allowed just 0.77 points per possession overall on defense this season, an elite mark for any defender, regardless of position. Chris Paul (0.86 points per possession allowed), Rajon Rondo (0.83 PPP allowed), and Russell Westbrook (0.92 PPP allowed) –- all excellent defenders -– have been trumped statistically this year, and by no slim margin. Rose has each of those players handily beat, and boasts a shockingly comprehensive defensive profile.

Hawkeye15
03-21-2011, 04:44 AM
sure its possible, but not likely. He will have to become far more efficient to touch the top 5 guys now.

I picked the LeBron one. He is far superior to Rose currently, and he is 26. He will most likely still be the best player in 2 years.

theSPECIALKID
03-21-2011, 04:46 AM
sure its possible, but not likely. He will have to become far more efficient to touch the top 5 guys now.

I picked the LeBron one. He is far superior to Rose currently, and he is 26. He will most likely still be the best player in 2 years.

I think acquiring a SG will help him become more efficient... Keith Bogans is not gonna cut it.

checkit
03-21-2011, 04:48 AM
this question? seriously? this board is such a joke I swear.

Hawkeye15
03-21-2011, 04:49 AM
I think acquiring a SG will help him become more efficient... Keith Bogans is not gonna cut it.

agreed, but Rose has a lot of work to do himself. Getting to the line a lot more, and creating for his teammates more will get his efficiency up. There is no doubt Rose has entered the star world. But to enter superstar world, he has to do a couple of things much stronger. A guy who controls the ball that much should be living at the line

effen5
03-21-2011, 04:52 AM
this question? seriously? this board is such a joke I swear.

Yeah its this board, its not like Greg Anthony said it or anything....

:rolleyes:

Wade>You
03-21-2011, 04:54 AM
this question? seriously? this board is such a joke I swear.I agree, but not the OP's fault. He's just re-posting what some talking head (Greg Anthony) had to say.

theSPECIALKID
03-21-2011, 04:58 AM
this question? seriously? this board is such a joke I swear.

How is this a joke??? D-Rose has the talent level and work ethic to do it. Not many people have the drive like this kid. Is it a guarantee? No, but to say it's a ridiculous statement is asinine imo..


agreed, but Rose has a lot of work to do himself. Getting to the line a lot more, and creating for his teammates more will get his efficiency up. There is no doubt Rose has entered the star world. But to enter superstar world, he has to do a couple of things much stronger. A guy who controls the ball that much should be living at the line

I think he's already a superstar imo... And yeah the free throw thing is something he has worked on. I can't find the exact stats, but ever since that Boston game at home he's been going to the line a pretty good clip. Just this past game he went there 21 times. He's also already a pretty good play maker for his team, but I think with more experience in Thibs system will get better in that department as well... Sky is the limit for this kid..

Hawkeye15
03-21-2011, 05:08 AM
How is this a joke??? D-Rose has the talent level and work ethic to do it. Not many people have the drive like this kid. Is it a guarantee? No, but to say it's a ridiculous statement is asinine imo..



I think he's already a superstar imo... And yeah the free throw thing is something he has worked on. I can't find the exact stats, but ever since that Boston game at home he's been going to the line a pretty good clip. Just this past game he went there 21 times. He's also already a pretty good play maker for his team, but I think with more experience in Thibs system will get better in that department as well... Sky is the limit for this kid..

I understand the sky is the limit. But he has a ways to climb, that is all I am saying. LeBron puts up numbers not seen in years. And he is in his prime. So 2 years may be too quick to ask about Rose being the best.

Windy
03-21-2011, 05:09 AM
If rose wins MVP does that make him the best player in the NBA for this season?

Furymaker
03-21-2011, 05:13 AM
With his work ethic anything is possible . This kid will be special , he is special .
Just like guys like Lebron , Dwight , Durant ...
And yea , last few games except for Boston , CP3 showed us again his full talent , averaging like 26 ppg , 11apg , 6rpg , 3spg - while shooting 50+ % FG and 40+ % 3pt , he is damn good . But in next 2 season I bet Rose will average 25/5/10 while shooting around 45-50% FG and 40% 3pt , he's been doing that for a while this season , but as season end is coming closer he's been declining a bit , but still , pretty amazing numbers for 22y kid with one of the best work ethics NBA has seen .

Furymaker
03-21-2011, 05:15 AM
If rose wins MVP does that make him the best player in the NBA for this season?

nope , it makes him Most valuable player in league , not best .

Windy
03-21-2011, 06:09 AM
Doc Rivers thinks otherwise:


Derrick Rose is the best player this year in the NBA. I think he'll be the MVP, and when you have the MVP on your team, you're usually pretty good
http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba/news/story?id=6221808

stawka
03-21-2011, 06:10 AM
Best PG in the league, maybe -- definitely not the best player though.

LeBron/Wade/Kobe/Dwight/Durant are well ahead of him at this point

effen5
03-21-2011, 06:21 AM
Doc Rivers thinks otherwise:


http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba/news/story?id=6221808

Its not only Doc, its also MJ.

giants9689
03-21-2011, 06:23 AM
doubt it

Jewelz0376
03-21-2011, 06:25 AM
this question? seriously? this board is such a joke I swear.

Yea it's joke to ask if the mvp of the league (most likely) at 22 yrs old could become the best player in the league :rolleyes:..

Cano4prez
03-21-2011, 06:28 AM
LeBron is better than Rose at everything and is still improving. I think LeBron will be the best till his early 30s. But who knows what will happen?

ragee
03-21-2011, 06:34 AM
How the hell could that happen when you have Lebron James playing in the same league? I despise Lebron but I am no homer to deny him the credit for his talent...

redwhitenblue
03-21-2011, 06:41 AM
Anyone mentioning Blake Griffin in this discussion other than saying "it certainly won't be Blake" has lost all basketball credbility.

A guy with weak ball handling, no real shot, questionable defense. Griffin isn't close to top 15 right now.

effen5
03-21-2011, 07:05 AM
Anyone mentioning Blake Griffin in this discussion other than saying "it certainly won't be Blake" has lost all basketball credbility.

A guy with weak ball handling, no real shot, questionable defense. Griffin isn't close to top 15 right now.

but but but....but he can dunk!

tcav701
03-21-2011, 07:24 AM
Derrick Rose iz really good, he scorez mad pointz and can dunk. He shoots the ball alot cuz he knows he da best. I dont know if he can play defence of do any otha ****. But the box score sayz he is nastyyyyyy.

Who ever is on the ESPN top playz is da best. That's just how i roll.

BcEuAbRsS
03-21-2011, 08:19 AM
Derrick Rose iz really good, he scorez mad pointz and can dunk. He shoots the ball alot cuz he knows he da best. I dont know if he can play defence of do any otha ****. But the box score sayz he is nastyyyyyy.

Who ever is on the ESPN top playz is da best. That's just how i roll.

Defensive Win Shares

2010-11 NBA 4.1 (10th in the NBA)

Yes... he can...

JordansBulls
03-21-2011, 08:40 AM
I think Rose will be 3-5 in any given year, dont think he will ever be higher than that in any season, but I hope he proves me wrong.

Hustlenomics
03-21-2011, 09:49 AM
Rose got higher defensive win shares than Battier and Artest

John Walls Era
03-21-2011, 09:54 AM
Rose got higher defensive win shares than Battier and Artest

Good point, but its not a coincidence tht Boozer and Rose have the highest DRtg and Dwinshares this year... I give credit to Thibs system.

Cubs Win
03-21-2011, 10:15 AM
Good point, but its not a coincidence tht Boozer and Rose have the highest DRtg and Dwinshares this year... I give credit to Thibs system.

Thibs has certainly, without a doubt, helped Rose defensively. But part of it has to be that Thibs focused his defensive potential that was already there. A 6'3 213lb PG with his speed and athleticsm certainly has a great defender somewhere in him.

jtsunami
03-21-2011, 10:19 AM
I'll try to provide some non-homerish insight and also provide my assessment for the ones inquiring about his defense.

He has made some big strides on defense this year thanks of course to Thibs. He is an excellent 1 on 1 defender because of his athleticism. He needs to work on keeping his man in front of him, but he makes up for that because he might be the best guard at contesting shots. Where he runs into problems is getting through screens. To me, he is very passive trying to get through ball screens. Lucky for him, Noah, Gibson, and Asik are all very versatile defenders and pick that up. Defensively, I would rank him somewhere between 5-10 of all starting PGs. I think that's a big jump because I thought he was around 15-20ish last year.

His biggest competition will be Howard, Durant, and Lebron. Lebron IMO has peaked (still a pretty high peak). Durant and Howard will be up there too for the next 5+ years. It will be tough to pass (or stay even depending on where you think Rose is), but he has the work ethic to do it. My biggest gripe with him right now is his 3PT shot selection. I'd like for him to scale is back to about 4 attempts/game.

Rocketsfan85
03-21-2011, 10:42 AM
Hell no.

Sly Guy
03-21-2011, 10:54 AM
He will most likely be the best PG... That being said with guys like James/Blake/Howard/Durant it will be extremely tough for him. I doubt he will be the best player but best PG is looking more and more likely.

I think 'best pg' depends on CP3's health. The problem with Rose is that he's harder to classify as a 1, so saying he's the 'best pg' is difficult because he doesn't play the position in the traditional way.

Rose is a good player. We should leave it at that.

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 10:55 AM
Doc Rivers thinks otherwise:


http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba/news/story?id=6221808

So you don't think KG is a dirty player. Because Doc doesn't. You can't use a guy's opinion as evidence when you just cherry pick a comment. And he said "this year" as well. Adding "this year" drastically changed the statement of "he's the best player."

Cool007
03-21-2011, 10:58 AM
With his work ethic, is it a possibilty? Sure.

This.

Imagine if he improves on his efficiency. If he can shoot a bit better, a bit better 3pt shot (as he was shooting about a month+ ago) and gets to the line atleast 1-2 more times.

That could easily give him 27+ppg 4+rpg 8-9apg on 48%fg 38%3pt 8fta per game.

That is NOT out of the question. If LeBron has D-Wade and Bosh STILL on his team and Durant has Westbrook improving. It's not out of the question that Rose CAN BE a best player or top 3 player in the league.

Especially the way he has improved on the defensive side this year as well, if he continues to improve on that, he could be one of the BEST 2-way guard in the NBA.

So yeah, It COULD happen. Will it? If I have to put my money, I would say he can become top 3 player in the NBA in a year or two (behind LeBron/Dwight).

Slimsim
03-21-2011, 11:02 AM
Why not

Flash3
03-21-2011, 11:28 AM
If rose wins MVP does that make him the best player in the NBA for this season?

lebron and dwight have been the better players this season especially dwight who is putting up monster numbers and carrying his team...

Flash3
03-21-2011, 11:30 AM
Anyone mentioning Blake Griffin in this discussion other than saying "it certainly won't be Blake" has lost all basketball credbility.

A guy with weak ball handling, no real shot, questionable defense. Griffin isn't close to top 15 right now.

he can work on defense/shot and i guess you havent seen his ball handling skills

tcav701
03-21-2011, 11:43 AM
This is the same **** people were saying about Durant last year.

I swear people live in the moment and exagerate. Most of you are the perfect ESPN audience.

Chacarron
03-21-2011, 11:44 AM
As long as Lebron is still around, no, Rose won't be the best player. He could become the second best, but Lebron is just too good.

fadedmario
03-21-2011, 11:51 AM
It's definitely a possibility...

KingPosey
03-21-2011, 12:01 PM
He wont be the best most likely. The guys ahead of him are gonna be "all timers". He wont pass LBJ, Howard, KD, Wade. He wont even pass KB for a few more seasons, when his dissension from the top spot begins.

DITKA4GOV
03-21-2011, 12:05 PM
LeBron is better than Rose at everything and is still improving. I think LeBron will be the best till his early 30s. But who knows what will happen?

Better than rose in everything is pushing it. He's definetely not better at closing games out. I also think Derrick will show some LOYALTY to his city. I don't think we will see rose go form a superteam and be ring chasing like Lebron either.

But really who knows how good Rose can become? Third year youngest MVP would be impressive if he gets it. I will reiterate what he said at the start of the season, "why not."

Durant looks like a possible beast in the future as well.

Minimal
03-21-2011, 12:06 PM
Simply put, no.

He can become the best PG in the league, but becoming the best player in the league is too much. His problem is efficiency right now. Low FG%, Big AST/TO rate, is he a defensive beast? He has a lot of room to improve.

There are a lot of players he should pass: LeBron, Howard, Durant, Blake Griffin, Chris Paul and now John Wall in near future.

25/12 and great defense might put him in top 3, but being the best you need to put enormous numbers and be extremely efficient. (Steve Nash & Chris Paul type)

chi-townlove1
03-21-2011, 12:07 PM
He still has a long way to go to catch CP3 as best PG, never mind best player. I don't think people relaize just how ****ing good CP3 is. He's playing better now than John Stockton did at the same age. And he hasn't been surrounded w/ much talent in NO either. If he goes to NY and plays w/ Melo and Amare, I think he might go down as one of, if not the best, PGs of all time, assuming good health of course (which is not a given).

you may be the biggest Rose hater on the forum..

DITKA4GOV
03-21-2011, 12:10 PM
lebron and dwight have been the better players this season especially dwight who is putting up monster numbers and carrying his team...

Really? Is it possible to be a florida homer? Dwight I will give u. If he gets it I wouldn't be upset one bit. He is carrying a team into the playoffs. Lebron on the other hand. The heat would still be a playoff team without him, right? Would the bulls be tied for first without Rose? Nope. Lebron gets MVP with Wade and Bosh Spice on his team and I give up being basketball fan.

chi-townlove1
03-21-2011, 12:14 PM
this question? seriously? this board is such a joke I swear.

your such a joke, so gtfo. asking if the probable MVP, at 22 yrs of age, is going to possibly be the best player in the league, IS NOT A JOKE.

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 12:15 PM
you may be the biggest Rose hater on the forum..

lmao

tcav701
03-21-2011, 12:32 PM
Really? Is it possible to be a florida homer? Dwight I will give u. If he gets it I wouldn't be upset one bit. He is carrying a team into the playoffs. Lebron on the other hand. The heat would still be a playoff team without him, right? Would the bulls be tied for first without Rose? Nope. Lebron gets MVP with Wade and Bosh Spice on his team and I give up being basketball fan.

MVP doesnt mean you're the best player in the league, it means you're the best player on a top team.

DITKA4GOV
03-21-2011, 12:45 PM
MVP doesnt mean you're the best player in the league, it means you're the best player on a top team.

Which I understand. This is also why I would be upset if lebron or Wade for that matter won MVP. Yes, lebron is having another killer year. But numbers wise Wade is not far behind him. So if lebron is not on the Heat they still are in the playoffs because they have Wade and Miley bosh. If you take rose off of Chicago they become a lottery team. MVP I always thought 8was most valuable player to a top tier team. How could lebron be most valuable when they would still be good without him? Hence my vote goes for Rose than Howard. Both doing it without a Wade or Lady Bosh.

tcav701
03-21-2011, 12:50 PM
Which I understand. This is also why I would be upset if lebron or Wade for that matter won MVP. Yes, lebron is having another killer year. But numbers wise Wade is not far behind him. So if lebron is not on the Heat they still are in the playoffs because they have Wade and Miley bosh. If you take rose off of Chicago they become a lottery team. MVP I always thought 8was most valuable player to a top tier team. How could lebron be most valuable when they would still be good without him? Hence my vote goes for Rose than Howard. Both doing it without a Wade or Lady Bosh.

I dont think anyone is debating Rose should be MVP, because he should. THe origianl comment YOU quoted was LeBron and Dwight have been better than Rose this year which is also correct.

There are two arguments:

1. Is Rose the MVP: Yes
2. Is Rose the best player in the NBA: No

The thread title is asking the latter question.

Baller1
03-21-2011, 12:50 PM
:laugh2:

Classic thread.

DITKA4GOV
03-21-2011, 12:59 PM
The original quote was that of someone saying Howard and lebron are having a better season. I disagree. I don't think they are having a better season outright.

As far as MVP I was stating my thoughts on how I think MVP is decided. None the less, rose will have a tall hill to climb to be considered the best. That conversation can really heat up if he can lead the bulls thru the playoffs and into the finals. Until than, he is a top tier player.

Cubs Win
03-21-2011, 01:04 PM
I dont think anyone is debating Rose should be MVP, because he should. THe origianl comment YOU quoted was LeBron and Dwight have been better than Rose this year which is also correct.

There are two arguments:

1. Is Rose the MVP: Yes
2. Is Rose the best player in the NBA: No

The thread title is asking the latter question.

Wrong. The thread title actually asks if he can be the best player in the NBA in a couple years, not if he is right now. Right now, no he is not. But can he be in a couple years, it's a possibility.

tcav701
03-21-2011, 01:11 PM
Wrong. The thread title actually asks if he can be the best player in the NBA in a couple years, not if he is right now. Right now, no he is not. But can he be in a couple years, it's a possibility.

I'm not taking anything away from Rose and I despise LeBron but in what aspect can Rose EVER be better than LBJ.

The only possibility is mid range/3 point shooting. LBJ will always be better in every other facet of the game.

dnewguy
03-21-2011, 01:12 PM
BEST? LMAO. Bulls fans stop at nothing. I think he is a overrated MVP choice, he is not even an efficient player, the Bulls defense makes Rose appear better than he really is. The Bulls team should share the MVP, not Rose.

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 01:19 PM
BEST? LMAO. Bulls fans stop at nothing. I think he is a overrated MVP choice, he is not even an efficient player, the Bulls defense makes Rose appear better than he really is. The Bulls team should share the MVP, not Rose.

Stop underrating Rose. He was pretty bad on D his first 2 years, but he's improved. Is he as good as his stats say? No, IMO. As you said, a lot of that is him playing w/ a great defensive scheme and 2 great individual defenders at crucial spots (SF and C). But it's more than just the team making him look better. There is definite improvement on his part as well.

As for MVP, I think Dwight should get it. W/out Rose, I think that CHI is a bottom playoff team in the East. ORL, on the other hand, would be one of the worst teams in the NBA. Imagine how poor that team would be defensively if he was gone. They'd probably be the worst in the NBA, or at least close. W/ him, their top 5 in points allowed and FG% against. He's also the only good rebounder on their team too.

Cubs Win
03-21-2011, 01:22 PM
I'm not taking anything away from Rose and I despise LeBron but in what aspect can Rose EVER be better than LBJ.

The only possibility is mid range/3 point shooting. LBJ will always be better in every other facet of the game.

Well, Rose is already a better free throw shooter (about 9% better this year). Rose has a higher AST% (by 4.6%). And they have the same DRTG (I know it can be linked to team D) and BLK% (1.3%)

Rose should continue to improve his mid-range and 3-point shooting as well as his offensive efficiency. In addition, he's expressed interest in working on a post game this upcoming offseason, so major improvements in that will only add to his efficiency. His defense should also continue to improve with his work ethic under Thibodeau.

To be clear, I'm not saying Rose is better than LeBron now, or even that he will be a few years down the road, just that he has the potential to get there.

redwhitenblue
03-21-2011, 01:23 PM
lmao
Eh, laugh all you want but your assessment of Paul is a bit ridiculous. He's a guy who struggled to stay on the court last year and whose numbers have dipped this year (and I don't want to hear the excuse of he doesn't have motivation there, because that's crap).

Baller1
03-21-2011, 01:27 PM
Why can't people see how inefficient he really is? It's pathetic.

Dallas Tx4Life
03-21-2011, 01:27 PM
If Lebron and Durant die

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 01:30 PM
Why can't people see how inefficient he really is? It's pathetic.

His PER is great. He is definately somewhat of a volume shooter, but I wouldn't say he's inefficient. I think he has poor shot selection at times, which is what I think he needs to work on. He needs to learn to create for other when nothing is there for him rather than force up contested shots. He's a great passer in the open court from what I see, but he needs to work on being a facilitator in the half court. Just my opinion...

Dallas Tx4Life
03-21-2011, 01:32 PM
His PER is great. He is definately somewhat of a volume shooter, but I wouldn't say he's inefficient. I think he has poor shot selection at times, which is what I think he needs to work on. He needs to learn to create for other when nothing is there for him rather than force up contested shots. He's a great passer in the open court from what I see, but he needs to work on being a facilitator in the half court. Just my opinion...

I agree with everything you just said.. I feel that he is a volume shooter, mainly because of the team surrounding him. When he gets a legitimate second scorer his numbers will be even better... At the moment he's the only one on that team that can consistently create for himself..

DITKA4GOV
03-21-2011, 01:33 PM
Why can't people see how inefficient he really is? It's pathetic.

I don't understand why they can't see it either. With the whole top ten in ppg and apg. The leading the team to the playoffs and tied for the number one spot and doing this with his number two and three guys missing significant time.

My question is why others can't see why his eff numbers are down due to carrying a team dealing with major injuries. Taking shots that had the team been healthy all year he wouldn't have to take. How far does westbrook/Durant take his team without the other missing significant time. Makes you think a bit, huh?

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 01:34 PM
If Lebron and Durant die

I think it's conceivable that he passes Dwight, Durant, and CP3. I don't think he will pass any of those 3, at least not in the recent future, but he could. Lebron, on the other hand, is a different story. I just can't see any legitimate argument that Rose (or anyone else) will pass him for a long time.

3 years from now, I see Rose fitting in right behind those 4 guys, making him #5 in the NBA. But again, I could see him potentially being as high as #2, even though I don't think that's the smart bet at all.

redwhitenblue
03-21-2011, 01:34 PM
Why can't people see how inefficient he really is? It's pathetic.
Same TS% as Westbrook...better eFG% than Westbrook

Who's inefficient?

Hawkeye15
03-21-2011, 01:35 PM
This.

Imagine if he improves on his efficiency. If he can shoot a bit better, a bit better 3pt shot (as he was shooting about a month+ ago) and gets to the line atleast 1-2 more times.

That could easily give him 27+ppg 4+rpg 8-9apg on 48%fg 38%3pt 8fta per game.

That is NOT out of the question. If LeBron has D-Wade and Bosh STILL on his team and Durant has Westbrook improving. It's not out of the question that Rose CAN BE a best player or top 3 player in the league.

Especially the way he has improved on the defensive side this year as well, if he continues to improve on that, he could be one of the BEST 2-way guard in the NBA.

So yeah, It COULD happen. Will it? If I have to put my money, I would say he can become top 3 player in the NBA in a year or two (behind LeBron/Dwight).

more or less what I think. He could be top 3-4 a few years of his career and may even have a year that is top 2,but its hard to see him outplaying LrBron or D12 at any time. But we won't know until we see it with our own eyes

redwhitenblue
03-21-2011, 01:36 PM
His PER is great. He is definately somewhat of a volume shooter, but I wouldn't say he's inefficient. I think he has poor shot selection at times, which is what I think he needs to work on. He needs to learn to create for other when nothing is there for him rather than force up contested shots. He's a great passer in the open court from what I see, but he needs to work on being a facilitator in the half court. Just my opinion...
When Boozer's in the lineup, his half-court facilitation is much better. When he's not and it's Gibson/Thomas/Noah at that rotation, it becomes more of a drive and kick offense dedicated to him trying to either get an open crease, draw a foul or find whoever comes to double-no real strong set up

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 01:37 PM
I agree with everything you just said.. I feel that he is a volume shooter, mainly because of the team surrounding him. When he gets a legitimate second scorer his numbers will be even better... At the moment he's the only one on that team that can consistently create for himself..

He already has a legitimate second scorer (and third, and fourth). It's just a matter of keeping them healthy. Boozer is one of the best 2nd options in the NBA and Deng is probably among the best 3rd options. Noah isn't an offensive force by any stretch of the imagination, but as a 4th option he is more than adequate offensively IMO. All the Bulls need IMO is a SG w/ some size (6'5"-6'7") that can defend multiple positions and knock down spot up 3s. If they get that, and those other guys stay healthy (all 3 are injury prone), then they will be right up there w/ MIA every year in the East.

Baller1
03-21-2011, 01:38 PM
Same TS% as Westbrook...better eFG% than Westbrook

Who's inefficient?

Westbrook is very inefficient as well. I don't know where you're going with that.

jtsunami
03-21-2011, 01:38 PM
There are a lot of players he should pass: LeBron, Howard, Durant, Blake Griffin, Chris Paul and now John Wall in near future.


Oh. My. God. Seriously, oh my god. :laugh:


:laugh2:

Classic thread.

Classic response.


BEST? LMAO. Bulls fans stop at nothing. I think he is a overrated MVP choice, he is not even an efficient player, the Bulls defense makes Rose appear better than he really is. The Bulls team should share the MVP, not Rose.

Solid contribution.


Why can't people see how inefficient he really is? It's pathetic.

He's more efficient than Russell Westbrook. Westbrook also leads the league in turnovers.

dnewguy
03-21-2011, 01:39 PM
I agree with everything you just said.. I feel that he is a volume shooter, mainly because of the team surrounding him. When he gets a legitimate second scorer his numbers will be even better... At the moment he's the only one on that team that can consistently create for himself..

This is simply why the Bulls keep winning, bad scouts. Rose already has a legitimate second scorer, his name is Luol Deng. The guy is simply underrated, the Bulls are more likely to lose when teams shut down Luol Deng. Shut down Rose all you want, he'll still get his 7-19fg.

redwhitenblue
03-21-2011, 01:39 PM
Westbrook is very inefficient as well. I don't know where you're going with that.
Well your signature is just wrong to begin with.


Rose isn't among the most efficient, but it's not as if he's horrible. Are you comparing the efficiency of G's, F's and C's, because that's a major mistake.

CHANGO
03-21-2011, 01:41 PM
While Lebron, Durant, Howard and Wade continue to play basketball. I doubt it. Of course, Rose can be the best PointGuard.

Baller1
03-21-2011, 01:42 PM
Well your signature is just wrong to begin with.


Rose isn't among the most efficient, but it's not as if he's horrible. Are you comparing the efficiency of G's, F's and C's, because that's a major mistake.

Westbrook and Rose are mirror images of each other; the only difference is one is in the MVP talks while the other is consistently overlooked.

I'm comparing his efficiency to other MVP's. Therefore, he's terribly overrated in that regard.

DLeeicious
03-21-2011, 01:44 PM
This is simply why the Bulls keep winning, bad scouts. Rose already has a legitimate second scorer, his name is Luol Deng. The guy is simply underrated, the Bulls are more likely to lose when teams shut down Luol Deng. Shut down Rose all you want, he'll still get his 7-19fg.

I'd say he usually ranges more like 2-30 fga per game. He is going to ge this 2-30 every game no matter what so definitely the focus should be on Deng.

Dallas Tx4Life
03-21-2011, 01:46 PM
This is simply why the Bulls keep winning, bad scouts. Rose already has a legitimate second scorer, his name is Luol Deng. The guy is simply underrated, the Bulls are more likely to lose when teams shut down Luol Deng. Shut down Rose all you want, he'll still get his 7-19fg.

Deng is an awesome 3rd option, one of the best in the league...


He already has a legitimate second scorer (and third, and fourth). It's just a matter of keeping them healthy. Boozer is one of the best 2nd options in the NBA and Deng is probably among the best 3rd options. Noah isn't an offensive force by any stretch of the imagination, but as a 4th option he is more than adequate offensively IMO. All the Bulls need IMO is a SG w/ some size (6'5"-6'7") that can defend multiple positions and knock down spot up 3s. If they get that, and those other guys stay healthy (all 3 are injury prone), then they will be right up there w/ MIA every year in the East.

Yes, Pats fan... What they need is a legit SG that can score and they will be set... I agree with Deng being a great third option, but as far as one of the best 2nd options in Boozer... No way.. Boozer is about as overrated as Bosh. I think Pau, Wade, Westbrook, Amare and plenty of others are way better 2nd options.. But I don't disagree at all with most of what you say patsfan...

DITKA4GOV
03-21-2011, 01:46 PM
Westbrook and Rose are mirror images of each other; the only difference is one is in the MVP talks while the other is consistently overlooked.

I'm comparing his efficiency to other MVP's. Therefore, he's terribly overrated in that regard.

Except for the fact that Rose has better stats on a better team without the help of a Kevin Durant. Other than that, there twins.

Dallas Tx4Life
03-21-2011, 01:48 PM
While Lebron, Durant, Howard and Wade continue to play basketball. I doubt it. Of course, Rose can be the best PointGuard.

Can be? I think he just proved this year that he is... Not to take away from CP3, D-Will or Rondo... But he's the best PG already in my opinion and I don't think it's very disputable at the moment.

Baller1
03-21-2011, 01:48 PM
Except for the fact that Rose has better stats on a better team without the help of a Kevin Durant. Other than that, there twins.

Someone needs to go back and check the statbooks.

redwhitenblue
03-21-2011, 01:50 PM
Westbrook and Rose are mirror images of each other; the only difference is one is in the MVP talks while the other is consistently overlooked.

I'm comparing his efficiency to other MVP's. Therefore, he's terribly overrated in that regard.
So you're comparing his efficiency to a F and a C.


That makes sense...

DITKA4GOV
03-21-2011, 01:51 PM
Deng is an awesome 3rd option, one of the best in the league...



Yes, Pats fan... What they need is a legit SG that can score and they will be set... I agree with Deng being a great third option, but as far as one of the best 2nd options in Boozer... No way.. Boozer is about as overrated as Bosh. I think Pau, Wade, Westbrook, Amare and plenty of others are way better 2nd options.. But I don't disagree at all with most of what you say patsfan...

I agree boozer is slightly overrated. I think the second options u listed are better 2nd option in general. Deng is a stud number 3 option. Having a career year. All of these leads to Rose taking some forced shots. Rose had to be forced into shooting to keep us in games sometimes early in his career. A ray Allen/ r. Hamilton type would be a killer number 2 option for Rose. Wishful thinking......

redwhitenblue
03-21-2011, 01:53 PM
Someone needs to go back and check the statbooks.
Yes, someone does. You.

WS/48, Ortg, drtg, eFG%.

Flash3
03-21-2011, 01:53 PM
Really? Is it possible to be a florida homer? Dwight I will give u. If he gets it I wouldn't be upset one bit. He is carrying a team into the playoffs. Lebron on the other hand. The heat would still be a playoff team without him, right? Would the bulls be tied for first without Rose? Nope. Lebron gets MVP with Wade and Bosh Spice on his team and I give up being basketball fan.

i said lebron has been the better player this season i didnt say he was gonna get mvp over rose...

Baller1
03-21-2011, 01:54 PM
So you're comparing his efficiency to a F and a C.


That makes sense...

Did you not read my post? I said in regards to the MVP.

No guard has ever won MVP?

DITKA4GOV
03-21-2011, 01:55 PM
Someone needs to go back and check the statbooks.

Ppg rose. Apg westbrook slightly. RPG westbrook. Wins... rose. My appolgies. Where is the westbrook MVP thread people? All these coaches, media, current players, former players, have it all wrong.

Dallas Tx4Life
03-21-2011, 01:56 PM
I agree boozer is slightly overrated. I think the second options u listed are better 2nd option in general. Deng is a stud number 3 option. Having a career year. All of these leads to Rose taking some forced shots. Rose had to be forced into shooting to keep us in games sometimes early in his career. A ray Allen/ r. Hamilton type would be a killer number 2 option for Rose. Wishful thinking......

Not that wishful (as far as Rip goes)... I think Hamilton should be very acquirable this offseason.. He does have a high pricetag though.. Anything to get the most one dimensional player of all time on the bench more often... If you don't know who I speak of, it is the almighty Ashton Korver.

Baller1
03-21-2011, 01:57 PM
Yes, someone does. You.

WS/48, Ortg, drtg, eFG%.

My bad, I forgot that we were disregarding rebounding, passing, steals, defense (drtg is a product of team defense).

Baller1
03-21-2011, 02:00 PM
Ppg rose. Apg westbrook slightly. RPG westbrook. Wins... rose. My appolgies. Where is the westbrook MVP thread people? All these coaches, media, current players, former players, have it all wrong.

Oh, my apologies. I didn't think we were still on per game statistics. In that case, Westbrook averages a similar amount of points when you correlate the shots attempted, more rebounds, more assists, more steals all while playing less minutes...

You were saying? Let's grow up and use big boy stats.

gilly
03-21-2011, 02:02 PM
If Howard further improves his offensive game, or Durant rounds out his game (rebounding, post game, etc), no.

DITKA4GOV
03-21-2011, 02:04 PM
i said lebron has been the better player this season i didnt say he was gonna get mvp over rose...

I was making a point that rose was having just as good or even better season than lebron and Howard. Stats tell a different story so I really can't argue that at all. I think rose will have a tough time ever being considered the best player in the league. He will have to lead his team to a finals win to even start the conversation. Not because that is what it takes to be the best, because we know how bron and Howard have done on that so far. But because for him to climb over the hill of doubt he will have to be legendary. I do love the debate tho. When the bulls lucked out, or were given the number 1 pick I thought Rose would be good for years to come. Never thought in three years a rose led team would be fighting for the number 1 spot....

redwhitenblue
03-21-2011, 02:04 PM
Did you not read my post? I said in regards to the MVP.

No guard has ever won MVP?
So you're comparing it to previous guards who won MVP or previous MVP's in general?

To answer your Q, very few guards have won it. Cousy won the second one ever given, Oscar Robertson, Magic, MJ, AI, Nash and Kobe. Cousy and AI's numbers aren't any better than Rose's. Robertson's shooting wasn't much better if any.

Bullsfan22
03-21-2011, 02:07 PM
The fact that people take this guy serious when It comes to talking about derrick rose is beyond me.

redwhitenblue
03-21-2011, 02:09 PM
My bad, I forgot that we were disregarding rebounding, passing, steals, defense (drtg is a product of team defense).
Why compare rebounds? Rose's team has the best per game rebounding differential (and it's not even close) and has top rebounders in Noah and Boozer grabbing most. They aren't F's or C's who's responsibilities are boards, the boards they get are random long bounces, not skill. So drtg is a team stat, then you mention steals and ignore the #1 Point Guard in blocked shots (#2 overall guard behind Wade).


I hate judging passing simply on APG. I think Westbrook and Rose are a push in the actual skill of passing, the difference being Westbrook's team shoots better and scores more, providing more chances for assists.

Baller1
03-21-2011, 02:09 PM
So you're comparing it to previous guards who won MVP or previous MVP's in general?

To answer your Q, very few guards have won it. Cousy won the second one ever given, Oscar Robertson, Magic, MJ, AI, Nash and Kobe. Cousy and AI's numbers aren't any better than Rose's. Robertson's shooting wasn't much better if any.

AI was the only other MVP more undeserving than Rose, and Robertson averaged a triple double... I think that gives him a bit of room for error in his scoring efficiency.

DLeeicious
03-21-2011, 02:13 PM
I am butthurt.

FYP. Stop being so butthurt about it, honestly do you ever post anything other than Westbrook/Rose posts? Doesn't that get old ever?

FWIW Westbrook is one of my 3 favorite players in the league right now. Don't act like he gets no attention around the league like he is mario chalmers or something. He just isn't as good or as valuable as Rose right now, get over it, it may change in the future because athletically they are the same.

redwhitenblue
03-21-2011, 02:14 PM
AI was the only other MVP more undeserving than Rose, and Robertson averaged a triple double... I think that gives him a bit of room for error in his scoring efficiency.
Robertson was a very good rebounder. But he was a pretty bad shooter, is that really MVP worthy? Wilt had freakish stats that year (since he could rack up on the lesser opponents) and was pretty clearly better.

Baller1
03-21-2011, 02:14 PM
The fact that people take this guy serious when It comes to talking about derrick rose is beyond me.

Because I know my basketball; nothing I'm saying is remotely absurd.


Why compare rebounds? Rose's team has the best per game rebounding differential (and it's not even close) and has top rebounders in Noah and Boozer grabbing most. They aren't F's or C's who's responsibilities are boards, the boards they get are random long bounces, not skill. So drtg is a team stat, then you mention steals and ignore the #1 Point Guard in blocked shots (#2 overall guard behind Wade).


I hate judging passing simply on APG. I think Westbrook and Rose are a push in the actual skill of passing, the difference being Westbrook's team shoots better and scores more, providing more chances for assists.

I'm assuming you've watched Westbrook play before, and therefore you should know that him getting his rebounds off of "lucky long bounces" is blatantly wrong. He's the best offensive rebounding PG in the NBA, and that's for a reason.

I know Rose leads all PG's in blocks, I never claimed that he didn't. I was simply stating that you cant just throw out all the stats favorable to Rose without acknowledging Westbrook's advantages.

redwhitenblue
03-21-2011, 02:14 PM
FYP. Stop being so butthurt about it, honestly do you ever post anything other than Westbrook/Rose posts? Doesn't that get old ever?

FWIW Westbrook is one of my 3 favorite players in the league right now. Don't act like he gets no attention around the league like he is mario chalmers or something. He just isn't as good or as valuable as Rose right now, get over it, it may change in the future because athletically they are the same.
We all know Westbrook and Kevin Love are only good because Rose allows them to train with him in the summer :rolleyes:

DITKA4GOV
03-21-2011, 02:15 PM
Oh, my apologies. I didn't think we were still on per game statistics. In that case, Westbrook averages a similar amount of points when you correlate the shots attempted, more rebounds, more assists, more steals all while playing less minutes...

You were saying? Let's grow up and use big boy stats.

Nope your right. I can understand why you feel slighted. Westbrook is obviously the superior ball player. Yet, rose gets all the love/threads. Everybody must be wrong. Or its the fact that westbrook doesn't face doubleteams/trapping every game. Westbrook doesn't flat out will his team to gritty wins quite like rose or even Durant. Or is it Rose is considered at times unstoppable quite like Durant. Big boy stats and big boy opinions yet its everyone else discussing rose as a top tier player, MVP candidate, and possibly one day best player in the league. Can everyone.... I mean everyone be wrong and you and your big boy stats be right? Maybe... just maybe? When are we starting the Russell westbrook MVP thread?

Baller1
03-21-2011, 02:15 PM
FYP. Stop being so butthurt about it, honestly do you ever post anything other than Westbrook/Rose posts? Doesn't that get old ever?

FWIW Westbrook is one of my 3 favorite players in the league right now. Don't act like he gets no attention around the league like he is mario chalmers or something. He just isn't as good or as valuable as Rose right now, get over it, it may change in the future because athletically they are the same.

That was mature. Good one.

redwhitenblue
03-21-2011, 02:16 PM
Because I know my basketball; nothing I'm saying is remotely absurd.



I'm assuming you've watched Westbrook play before, and therefore you should know that him getting his rebounds off of "lucky long bounces" is blatantly wrong. He's the best offensive rebounding PG in the NBA, and that's for a reason.

I know Rose leads all PG's in blocks, I never claimed that he didn't. I was simply stating that you cant just throw out all the stats favorable to Rose without acknowledging Westbrook's advantages.
Yes, his 1.5 offensive rebounds over 35 minutes are based on pure skill. By the way, 5th on that ORebound list is Rose, while Rose averages more Drebounds per game than Westbrook.

redwhitenblue
03-21-2011, 02:18 PM
Westbrook also leads another category you're missing.


Turnovers per game.

Baller1
03-21-2011, 02:19 PM
Yes, his 1.5 offensive rebounds over 35 minutes are based on pure skill. By the way, 5th on that ORebound list is Rose, while Rose averages more Drebounds per game than Westbrook.

According to you though, it's just luck. It has nothing to do with their athletic abilities, basketball IQ, or instinctive reactions right?

Baller1
03-21-2011, 02:20 PM
Westbrook also leads another category you're missing.


Turnovers per game.

Yup, he's terrible in that regard.

But his A/T ratio is virtually identical to Rose's as Rose turns it over excessively as well.

shizzle09
03-21-2011, 02:21 PM
it's really quiet simple. Derek Rose is the MVP because his body of work this season includes carrying his team through injuries to contention for the #1 seed. If you're going simply off of stats Rose and Westbrook are quiet comparable. One could say Westbrook has higher assists due to Durant but one could also say Westbrook would have more ppg if he wasnt with Durant. I think it goes both ways here. Anyone claiming Rose isnt the MVP as of now doesnt understand the history of the award and what type of player wins it. Anyone claiming Westy isnt having as good of a statistical season as Rose doesnt understand basketball

farren.louis
03-21-2011, 02:22 PM
There will never be a BEST player in the leaugue again

redwhitenblue
03-21-2011, 02:24 PM
Yup, he's terrible in that regard.

But his A/T ratio is virtually identical to Rose's as Rose turns it over excessively as well.
Westbrook's USG% is less and his TOV% is higher (3%)

Bullsfan22
03-21-2011, 02:25 PM
meh anybody can type basketball-reference in the their chrome web browser and qoute advanced statistics.

When you can do that it's not hard to point out weaknesses on a player you hate to the bone. The things you say aren't ground breaking what's so ever. I'm not attacking your knowledge of the game but I'm attacking your integrity when it comes to debating about Rose. Your extremely negative, which is not against the rules by any means. If someone decided to visit this forum and read some things you write factoring in your sig they'd think your 12.

If a guy like hugepatsfan can come in here and state his opinion with no signs of hatred I think anyone can because he not that fond of rose by any means but I respect what he says because of the way he presents himself.

DLeeicious
03-21-2011, 02:30 PM
That was mature. Good one.

When in Rome baller, when in Rome.

DITKA4GOV
03-21-2011, 02:31 PM
Because I know my basketball; nothing I'm saying is remotely absurd.



I'm assuming you've watched Westbrook play before, and therefore you should know that him getting his rebounds off of "lucky long bounces" is blatantly wrong. He's the best offensive rebounding PG in the NBA, and that's for a reason.

I know Rose leads all PG's in blocks, I never claimed that he didn't. I was simply stating that you cant just throw out all the stats favorable to Rose without acknowledging Westbrook's advantages.

I agree westbrook gets his on the rebounding. But he is not surrounded by the best rebounding team. Least deserving? Wow bold statement. I have watched my fair share of thunder games not a ton. I like westbrook a lot as a ball player. If I was starting a new team, westbrook wouldn't be in my top ten picks... rose would. I'm a Homer I guess or whatever. Rose in my opinion is a better shooter, better at finishing at the basket, better passer, better leader, appears to be somewhat clutch with killer instinct, and a great teammate. He has improved every year and doesnt show any signs of stopping. This is my opinion but I watch almost every bulls game. I have only watched a thunder games on tnt or ESPN. So be a fan for westbrook and ill be a fan of rose. The difference is Rose is getting all this attention... and westbrook isn't. Sorry you feel slighted....

Baller1
03-21-2011, 02:31 PM
meh anybody can type basketball-reference in the their chrome web browser and qoute advanced statistics.

When you can do that it's not hard to point out weaknesses on a player you hate to the bone. The things you say aren't ground breaking what's so ever. I'm not attacking your knowledge of the game but I'm attacking your integrity when it comes to debating about Rose. Your extremely negative, which is not against the rules by any means. If someone decided to visit this forum and read some things you write factoring in your sig they'd think your 12.

If a guy like hugepatsfan can come in here and state his opinion with no signs of hatred I think anyone can because he not that fond of rose by any means but I respect what he says because of the way he presents himself.

I've said it multiple times, I like Rose. I think he's an incredible basketball player and an insane talent.

BUT... He's, for lack of a better word, overrated. The fact that he's unanimously regarded around the league as the MVP and best PG is an anomaly.

Wade>You
03-21-2011, 02:33 PM
I've said it multiple times, I like Rose. I think he's an incredible basketball player and an insane talent.

BUT... He's, for lack of a better word, overrated. The fact that he's unanimously regarded around the league as the MVP and best PG is an anomaly.He plays for Chicago. Just think how many "title contenders" Chicago has pumped out the past 5 years. Overrating is part of being a Bull.

redwhitenblue
03-21-2011, 02:34 PM
He plays for Chicago. Just think how many "title contenders" Chicago has pumped out the past 5 years. Overrating is part of being a Bull.
Go try to pay the refs for your next championship.


To your point, Chicago has a Stanley Cup, a SB appearance, a NFC Championship game appearance and a WS title in the past 6 years...that's a lot of title contenders.

Soon, we'll add at least an ECF appearance.

John Walls Era
03-21-2011, 02:43 PM
Serious question: Is he even better than AI in his prime?

Steelers23_06
03-21-2011, 02:43 PM
"Is Lebron retiring next season or something". Literally word for word what i thought before even reading the thread. its because everything lebron does is above average that includes man defense as well as zone defense, as well as rebounding, as well as block shot, as well as drive the lane, as well as assists, and oh yeah his shot has improved A LOT. He can score you cant deny it...17000 2 years faster than kobe and even though they made the big 3 in miami and everyone thought his ppg would take a huge hit (especially BSPN and ˝ of PSD), he overcame becoming the villain and is 2nd in the league along with wade his partner is crime averaging over 25 pgg but thats another story. LeBron is hands down the best player in the league and with his team around him his career will prolong so get used to him he's gonna be on top for a whileeeee.

DITKA4GOV
03-21-2011, 02:45 PM
Serious question: Is he even better than AI in his prime?

Why rose is only 22? He's better than AI when AI was 22.

DITKA4GOV
03-21-2011, 02:49 PM
"Is Lebron retiring next season or something". Literally word for word what i thought before even reading the thread. its because everything lebron does is above average that includes man defense as well as zone defense, as well as rebounding, as well as block shot, as well as drive the lane, as well as assists, and oh yeah his shot has improved A LOT. He can score you cant deny it...17000 2 years faster than kobe and even though they made the big 3 in miami and everyone thought his ppg would take a huge hit (especially BSPN and ˝ of PSD), he overcame becoming the villain and is 2nd in the league along with wade his partner is crime averaging over 25 pgg but thats another story. LeBron is hands down the best player in the league and with his team around him his career will prolong so get used to him he's gonna be on top for a whileeeee.

As long as he keeps missing those vital end of the game shots I hope he stays forever.

Really tho, it will be hard to dethrone lebron. For the sake of arguement, if rose LEADS his team to a ring or two, does he surpass Lebron? Can championships even be considered in this discussion?

Bullsfan22
03-21-2011, 02:52 PM
I've said it multiple times, I like Rose. I think he's an incredible basketball player and an insane talent.

BUT... He's, for lack of a better word, overrated. The fact that he's unanimously regarded around the league as the MVP and best PG is an anomaly.

Statistically maybe so..but the mvp race is also about the story. (I'm not saying it's fair) But it is what it is. The NBA doesn't need to appeal to the most educated basketball ball minds when it comes to it's most prized season award. It appeals to the masses.

And when the fans and some of the analyst sit back and look at Rose and and what he's done for the bulls theres no better combination of success and feel good story than Derrick Rose. It also doesn't hurt that he's playing for a city like chicago either.

I look at it as a give and take thing. any sane person knows with a stable roster/starting line up Rose's efficiency numbers would be higher. But I honestly don't believe if you can magically bump his fg% up and take away the threes he's had to jack up that a knocked his 3pt percentage down and exchange it with his complete roster he would get mvp with that healthy roster. The rash of injuries is part of the ''story".

jtsunami
03-21-2011, 02:58 PM
Serious question: Is he even better than AI in his prime?

AI MVP year vs. Rose this year

Stats: PER..TS%..eFG%..TRB%...AST%...TOV%...USG%...
Rose: 22.9..536...476...6.6.......39.......13........32. 4.....
AI:.....24....518....447....5.2.......23........10 ........35.9.....

AI's PER is better because he scored more points/game. AI averaged less TOs but also less Assists/TO.

shizzle09
03-21-2011, 03:01 PM
Go try to pay the refs for your next championship.


To your point, Chicago has a Stanley Cup, a SB appearance, a NFC Championship game appearance and a WS title in the past 6 years...that's a lot of title contenders.

Soon, we'll add at least an ECF appearance.

LOL, never fails. even the reasonable posters fall victim to childish remarks.

DITKA4GOV
03-21-2011, 03:03 PM
Statistically maybe so..but the mvp race is also about the story. (I'm not saying it's fair) But it is what it is. The NBA doesn't need to appeal to the most educated basketball ball minds when it comes to it's most prized season award. It appeals to the masses.

And when the fans and some of the analyst sit back and look at Rose and and what he's done for the bulls theres no better combination of success and feel good story than Derrick Rose. It also doesn't hurt that he's playing for a city like chicago either.

I look at it as a give and take thing. any sane person knows with a stable roster/starting line up Rose's efficiency numbers would be higher. But I honestly don't believe if you can magically bump his fg% up and take away the threes he's had to jack up that a knocked his 3pt percentage down and exchange it with his complete roster he would get mvp with that healthy roster. The rash of injuries is part of the ''story".

This is quite true. The story is there. Hometown boy turning around a team in peril. Humble star or the anti-big three type of personality. Westbrook's respect or lack there of is hurt by being in OK city and being with Durant. Lebron will be at the top of the list for years to come. I'm just not ready to annoint him untouchable. I think the main thing for people that watch rose play every game is his influence on this team. He has willed the team to wins so many times this season that as fans we can't help but be amazed. Who the best player in the league will always he an arguement and not something that is decided definitely. MVP is not decided on that. So I hope rose proves all the haters wrong and all the supporters right. Do that by bringing a championship back to his hometown.

JonnyBrav000
03-21-2011, 03:08 PM
He will most likely be the best PG... That being said with guys like James/Blake/Howard/Durant it will be extremely tough for him. I doubt he will be the best player but best PG is looking more and more likely.

You can take Blake Griffin out of that equation. He is great and one of the best, but there is no doubt D.Rose is better than he is right now, also Durant is not better, I'd say they are about equal and if I had to give someone the edge, I'd give it to Rose. Right now only guys standing in his way are Kobe, Lebron, and Dwight Howard. Wade and Durant are tied, but there is no doubt in my mind Rose can be better than any one of these guys. Kobe is getting older so that will happen soon, now Lebron and Dwight are both beast and D.Howard is getting better offensively. It's going to be interesting to see what happens. Who knows maybe Dwight Howard will turn into the best player in the league if he keeps training with Hakeem Olajuwon in the offseason. That would be my guess with Rose being number 2 and Lebron at 3, with Durant and Griffin being right there at 4 and 5.

Hawkeye15
03-21-2011, 03:08 PM
Here are the top 5 PG's lined up (I removed Nash, since he won't be in the conversation in 2 years):

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=willide01&y1=2011&p2=rondora01&y2=2011&p3=westbru01&y3=2011&p4=rosede01&y4=2011&p5=paulch01&y5=2011

Here are their synergy defensive ratings (since Drtg is a terrible way to rate them, its completely team oriented, ie, if you have a great defensive team, you have a great Drtg even if you are not a good defender):

Rondo: 0.79 PPP (54th in the NBA)
Rose: 0.76 PPP (26th in the NBA)
Westbrook: 0.88 (182nd in the NBA)
Paul: 0.88 (tied 182nd in the NBA)
Williams: 0.91 (260th in the NBA)

Each players team ranking on defense (puts it in a bit more perspective):
Rondo: #2
Rose: #1
Westbrook: #16
Paul: #6
Williams: #24 (Jazz), #18 (Nets)

We can clearly see Paul is the best PG in the NBA currently when factoring in his totally dominant offensive efficiency with good defense. Rose is probably inching to #2 at the moment, passing Deron THIS season only (we need a longer sample size). Westbrook is right there as well, but he must cut down on his turnovers over the next 2 seasons to be in the discussion.

Simply put, we are in the age of the PG. Arguing over who is best is like arguing who the best center of the 90's was. In any given year, it could be a completely different top 3-5 than the year prior.

Back to the OP's question, could Rose become the best player in the NBA in 2 seasons? Yes, anything is possible. But LeBron will be very, very, very difficult to catch, and Dwight will also pose a huge obstacle to climb over. We also have Durant entering his prime 2 years down the line. So imho, Rose will be a top 5 player thru his prime. I don't think he can crack the top 2 at any given time, or in any given year, but he will be a fantastic player. Just tighten up on a few things like 3%, and getting to the line, and bump that assist% up another 4-5 percent, and he is right at the barometer of the elite of the elite. Will it happen? I guess we will have to wait and see

YoungOne
03-21-2011, 03:12 PM
was iverson ever the best player in the league?

AddiX
03-21-2011, 03:18 PM
was iverson ever the best player in the league?

The year he went to the finals, heck yeah.

People talk about bad teams, that 76ers team was terrible. Maybe the worst supporting vcast in the history of modern NBA to make the finals.

It's funny how people forget what iverson did for them night in and night out. IMO no one has ever carried a team by themselves the way he did that year. His startig 5 was basically all bench players except for him.

FuriousJatt
03-21-2011, 03:21 PM
Whow knws, anything could happen. but i think it will be drantula.

YoungOne
03-21-2011, 03:25 PM
The year he went to the finals, heck yeah.

People talk about bad teams, that 76ers team was terrible. Maybe the worst supporting vcast in the history of modern NBA to make the finals.

It's funny how people forget what iverson did for them night in and night out. IMO no one has ever carried a team by themselves the way he did that year. His startig 5 was basically all bench players except for him.

then he may do it, besides height they are pretty similar in my opinion

Hawkeye15
03-21-2011, 03:27 PM
was iverson ever the best player in the league?

no, Iverson was never the best player in the NBA in any given year. I don't think he was ever even top 3.

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 03:28 PM
Serious question: Is he even better than AI in his prime?

Give me Rose all day everyday over AI. Rose at least makes an effort on D, even though I think he has a way to go. Rose is a scoring PG. AI is a SG in a PG's body. There's a difference. One (Rose) is a good team player who just happens to contribute best while scoring. The other (AI) dominates the ball and stagnates your offense, despite godly PPG numbers.

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 03:37 PM
meh anybody can type basketball-reference in the their chrome web browser and qoute advanced statistics.

When you can do that it's not hard to point out weaknesses on a player you hate to the bone. The things you say aren't ground breaking what's so ever. I'm not attacking your knowledge of the game but I'm attacking your integrity when it comes to debating about Rose. Your extremely negative, which is not against the rules by any means. If someone decided to visit this forum and read some things you write factoring in your sig they'd think your 12.

If a guy like hugepatsfan can come in here and state his opinion with no signs of hatred I think anyone can because he not that fond of rose by any means but I respect what he says because of the way he presents himself.

I actually really do like Rose. I enjoy watching him. But I think a lot of Bulls fans on here seem to rate him based off what he can be, and not what he is. Like this thread for example, people assume he will learn this skill and that skill, but they don't account for LBJ probably picking up a post game soon or Dwight further improving his mid range. I think most fans tend to overrate their own players (I'm as guilty as anyone w/ that, even though I make an effort not to be). ANd because there are so many Bulls fans on PSD, it's magnified X100000 w/ Rose.

If I were starting a franchise, Lebron, Dwight, and Durant are the only guys I would for sure take over Rose. CP3 will be better over the next 5+ years if healthy IMO, but I worry about him w/ injuries more than I do any of the other guys. But if CP3 stays healthy and joins a super team in NY, I think he will go down as one of the best PGs to ever play the game. So saying I'd take him over Rose isn't really a diss at all.

Other than those 4, there's not a single player I would even consider building around over Rose. He is already a star (I have him and Pau in a dead heat for #10 overall in the NBA). By next year, I see him passing Melo and D-Will to move up to #8 (maybe even ahead of Dirk too for #7). As Wade and Kobe decline, I think he will move up to #5, behind only those 4 guys I mentioned earlier.

Rose really is one of the good guys in the NBA. He has great work ethic and leadership qualities. He's an easy guy to root for. Even though it seems like I dislike him, I really don't. Again, I just feel that he is overrated by a lot of people here, so I point it out. But that doesn't mean I'm not a huge fan of his.

ackar
03-21-2011, 03:47 PM
Anything possible if you work hard enough for it.

Bullsfan22
03-21-2011, 03:47 PM
I actually really do like Rose. I enjoy watching him. But I think a lot of Bulls fans on here seem to rate him based off what he can be, and not what he is. Like this thread for example, people assume he will learn this skill and that skill, but they don't account for LBJ probably picking up a post game soon or Dwight further improving his mid range. I think most fans tend to overrate their own players (I'm as guilty as anyone w/ that, even though I make an effort not to be). ANd because there are so many Bulls fans on PSD, it's magnified X100000 w/ Rose.

If I were starting a franchise, Lebron, Dwight, and Durant are the only guys I would for sure take over Rose. CP3 will be better over the next 5+ years if healthy IMO, but I worry about him w/ injuries more than I do any of the other guys. But if CP3 stays healthy and joins a super team in NY, I think he will go down as one of the best PGs to ever play the game. So saying I'd take him over Rose isn't really a diss at all.

Other than those 4, there's not a single player I would even consider building around over Rose. He is already a star (I have him and Pau in a dead heat for #10 overall in the NBA). By next year, I see him passing Melo and D-Will to move up to #8 (maybe even ahead of Dirk too for #7). As Wade and Kobe decline, I think he will move up to #5, behind only those 4 guys I mentioned earlier.

Rose really is one of the good guys in the NBA. He has great work ethic and leadership qualities. He's an easy guy to root for. Even though it seems like I dislike him, I really don't. Again, I just feel that he is overrated by a lot of people here, so I point it out. But that doesn't mean I'm not a huge fan of his.

kudos to you for not letting a fan base cloud you're opinion. I'm like that with Bron despite some of the heat fans.

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 03:50 PM
kudos to you for not letting a fan base cloud you're opinion. I'm like that with Bron despite some of the heat fans.

I hate Lebron. He is not one of the good guy in the NBA IMO. He is the exact type of spoiled, pampered, ignorant athlete that I hate rooting for. I respect his talent and his place as the best basketball player in the world, but I'd rather see Rose win 10 titles than see Lebron win one game, or even score a basket.

Dallas Tx4Life
03-21-2011, 04:21 PM
There will never be a BEST player in the leaugue again

When Kobe retires there will be an unarguable BEST player...

bringinwood
03-21-2011, 04:32 PM
Give me Rose all day everyday over AI. Rose at least makes an effort on D, even though I think he has a way to go. Rose is a scoring PG. AI is a SG in a PG's body. There's a difference. One (Rose) is a good team player who just happens to contribute best while scoring. The other (AI) dominates the ball and stagnates your offense, despite godly PPG numbers.

However, Rose has had much much more to work with during his first 3 years...

He has Deng, Boozer, and even Noah to help offset his burden some...

Iverson didn't make an effort on D ??? You lost me there...

Iverson was a top defensive perimeter player for years...

bringinwood
03-21-2011, 04:44 PM
Give me Rose all day everyday over AI. Rose at least makes an effort on D, even though I think he has a way to go. Rose is a scoring PG. AI is a SG in a PG's body. There's a difference. One (Rose) is a good team player who just happens to contribute best while scoring. The other (AI) dominates the ball and stagnates your offense, despite godly PPG numbers.

Another thing...

Iverson is a SG in a PG's body but Rose isn't ??? How ???

They are pretty identical in their gameplay... This isn't a knock on Rose as Iverson was probably one of the most misunderstood players of our time...

He was betrayed as a villian, ballhog, lackluster attitude, and selfish by ESPN but, the reality was that he was one of the hardest working athletes this game has ever seen and will ever see for many years to come...

He wasn't 6'6 with a lights out jumper... He was 6'0 on stilts and weighed 165 lbs soaking wet... You don't survive in the NBA that long and aren't as successful as he was without the heart and dedication of a champion...

Rose is very very similar to Allen Iverson... The Bulls should be very happy this is the case...

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 04:50 PM
However, Rose has had much much more to work with during his first 3 years...

He has Deng, Boozer, and even Noah to help offset his burden some...

Iverson didn't make an effort on D ??? You lost me there...

Iverson was a top defensive perimeter player for years...

:laugh:

Hawkeye15
03-21-2011, 04:51 PM
However, Rose has had much much more to work with during his first 3 years...

He has Deng, Boozer, and even Noah to help offset his burden some...

Iverson didn't make an effort on D ??? You lost me there...

Iverson was a top defensive perimeter player for years...

you have to be kidding? His complete inability to defend his own position is what caused the Sixers to surround him with elite defenders, and his inability to co-exist with another star scorer is what caused them to shy away from bringing one in, and concentrated on using AI to lead their offense completely, since this was the only way to get any high value out of him. Look at any star he has ever played with. They played better without him. If you are referring to steals, AI was allowed to gamble because he had Snow guarding his position, and an elite defensive team behind him to cover mistakes.

Iverson's cast continues to go down as one of the more underrated casts there ever was. That team specifically gave Iverson his best chance to win a ring. It catered to his need to shoot, shoot, shoot, and covered up his liabilities.

I would take Rose any day all day at age 22 going forward.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=iversal01&y1=1998&p2=rosede01&y2=2011

Rose is bigger, stronger, a better defender, and more efficient. Iverson't prime was slightly better offensively than Rose is now, but not by much.

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 04:52 PM
you have to be kidding? His complete inability to defend his own position is what caused the Sixers to surround him with elite defenders, and his inability to co-exist with another star scorer is what caused them to shy away from bringing one in, and concentrated on using AI to lead their offense completely, since this was the only way to get any high value out of him. Look at any star he has ever played with. They played better without him. If you are referring to steals, AI was allowed to gamble because he had Snow guarding his position, and an elite defensive team behind him to cover mistakes.

Iverson's cast continues to go down as one of the more underrated casts there ever was. That team specifically gave Iverson his best chance to win a ring. It catered to his need to shoot, shoot, shoot, and covered up his liabilities.

I would take Rose any day all day at age 22 going forward.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=iversal01&y1=1998&p2=rosede01&y2=2011

Rose is bigger, stronger, a better defender, and more efficient. Iverson't prime was slightly better offensively than Rose is now, but not by much.

I literally stood up and fist pumped after reading this. Spot on.

D Roses Bulls
03-21-2011, 04:55 PM
most of the people that say no way are the same people that said rose wouldnt win mvp at the beginning of the season. there is a real chance he could be. he is only 22

Hawkeye15
03-21-2011, 04:58 PM
most of the people that say no way are the same people that said rose wouldnt win mvp at the beginning of the season. there is a real chance he could be. he is only 22

cmon man, you know you don't have to be a top 3-5 player to win MVP sometimes.

Again, its not like rational posters are saying "Eff No!". Its just very hard to see him improving so much more that he is able to pass up LeBron or Dwight. And then there is Durant, and a couple others.

Sure it can happen. But he has a long ways to go to catch the LeBron/Dwight's.

Hustlenomics
03-21-2011, 05:00 PM
Iverson played with no stars till he got traded to the Nuggets cut that out

Dallas Tx4Life
03-21-2011, 05:00 PM
most of the people that say no way are the same people that said rose wouldnt win mvp at the beginning of the season. there is a real chance he could be. he is only 22

And??? Lebron is only 25... He won't surpass Lebron, I'm sorry to ruin your day. It just won't happen. Here, I'll give it a 10% chance. That's the best you're gonna get. I'm not bashing Rose here. Imo he's already the best PG in the league and could very well be the 2nd best player by the end of the year. But when it comes to "the best," Lebron is taking that cake and eating it too.

D Roses Bulls
03-21-2011, 05:01 PM
cmon man, you know you don't have to be a top 3-5 player to win MVP sometimes.

Again, its not like rational posters are saying "Eff No!". Its just very hard to see him improving so much more that he is able to pass up LeBron or Dwight. And then there is Durant, and a couple others.

Sure it can happen. But he has a long ways to go to catch the LeBron/Dwight's.

oh I know you don't but the fact is people write of rose for whatever reason. the guy could score a 100 points tomorrow and he would still be wrote off or people would still find a reason to nit pick at him.

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 05:03 PM
oh I know you don't but the fact is people write of rose for whatever reason. the guy could score a 100 points tomorrow and he would still be wrote off or people would still find a reason to nit pick at him.

It's because if he scored 100 points there would be a thread from a Bulls fan making a thread asking if he can average that for a season.

Rose is the Eli Manning of the NBA forum. His own posters overrate him so much that other fans naturally uneccessarily bash him to even it out.

D Roses Bulls
03-21-2011, 05:04 PM
And??? Lebron is only 25... He won't surpass Lebron, I'm sorry to ruin your day. It just won't happen. Here, I'll give it a 10% chance. That's the best you're gonna get. I'm not bashing Rose here. Imo he's already the best PG in the league and could very well be the 2nd best player by the end of the year. But when it comes to "the best," Lebron is taking that cake and eating it too.

okay and???? how many people thought mj would be better coming into the league then bird and magic at the time? not many and even though rose isnt mj and never will be, its not like lebron is on mj's status where the man can not be surpassed. and besides, some people dont even think lebron is the best player in the league, like its not too far fetched to say wade is just as good or better then lebron. you make it sound impossible, but it really isnt. lebron isnt mj, he can be surpassed

Jewelz0376
03-21-2011, 05:05 PM
you have to be kidding? His complete inability to defend his own position is what caused the Sixers to surround him with elite defenders, and his inability to co-exist with another star scorer is what caused them to shy away from bringing one in, and concentrated on using AI to lead their offense completely, since this was the only way to get any high value out of him. Look at any star he has ever played with. They played better without him. If you are referring to steals, AI was allowed to gamble because he had Snow guarding his position, and an elite defensive team behind him to cover mistakes.

Iverson's cast continues to go down as one of the more underrated casts there ever was. That team specifically gave Iverson his best chance to win a ring. It catered to his need to shoot, shoot, shoot, and covered up his liabilities.

I would take Rose any day all day at age 22 going forward.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=iversal01&y1=1998&p2=rosede01&y2=2011

Rose is bigger, stronger, a better defender, and more efficient. Iverson't prime was slightly better offensively than Rose is now, but not by much.

Which star scorer did he play with?? a broke down Big Dogg and Cwebb?? Stackhouse def wasn't either.... The only he played with was Melo...and check the stats.... out of Melo's top 3 most efficient seasons...2 of them were the two seasons he played with AI..and he has yet to have any season's better since...so Melo has played worse offensively since AI left...

Now as far as D is concerned yea he was probably an average defender at best in his prime philly years..and it was just flat out bad since he left...but I hate when people use the "he chased every scorer away argument" like he ever played with a high caliber scorer besides Melo...

Hawkeye15
03-21-2011, 05:07 PM
Iverson played with no stars till he got traded to the Nuggets cut that out

so? And how did those stars do? That is the whole point dude. Iverson supporters whine and cry about him not having another all star. Um, he couldn't co-exist with one. The ONLY way to have an Iverson led team go deep in the playoffs was to surround him with an elite defense, and players who didn't need shots to be efficient.

And again, a TEAM wins. And Iverson's TEAM was a completely elite defensive team, with savvy vets on the other side of the ball that didn't turn it over, and were very efficient with the scraps they did get.

Hustlenomics
03-21-2011, 05:09 PM
^ refer to the post above you about him co existing with the only star he played with

Hawkeye15
03-21-2011, 05:10 PM
Which star scorer did he play with?? a broke down Big Dogg and Cwebb?? Stackhouse def wasn't either.... The only he played with was Melo...and check the stats.... out of Melo's top 3 most efficient seasons...2 of them were the two seasons he played with AI..and he has yet to have any season's better since...so Melo has played worse offensively since AI left...

Now as far as D is concerned yea he was probably an average defender at best in his prime philly years..and it was just flat out bad since he left...but I hate when people use the "he chased every scorer away argument" like he ever played with a high caliber scorer besides Melo...

how did Melo's team do with AI? How did they do with Billups (who many think is a lesser player than AI)?

hmmm

Fact is, no other player in that era, on the wing, had the support Iverson did on the defensive end. And people act as if his teammates were scrubs. Its unreal. I am sorry that many of you see players like shiny toys, and unless they are considered by the media to be elite, they are scrubs. But Iverson played with very good players, and ELITE defensive players. The point is, Rose will be better (if he isn't already), and Iverson was never the best player in the NBA at any point of his career.

Hawkeye15
03-21-2011, 05:10 PM
^ refer to the post above you about him co existing with the only star he played with

refer to the post above.

Dallas Tx4Life
03-21-2011, 05:11 PM
okay and???? how many people thought mj would be better coming into the league then bird and magic at the time? not many and even though rose isnt mj and never will be, its not like lebron is on mj's status where the man can not be surpassed. and besides, some people dont even think lebron is the best player in the league, like its not too far fetched to say wade is just as good or better then lebron. you make it sound impossible, but it really isnt. lebron isnt mj, he can be surpassed

First off, Wade isn't as good as Lebron. This isn't an opinion, it is fact. Second, yes you're right, neither Rose or Lebron are MJ... But me saying that Lebron won't be passed is just like everyone saying there will never be anyone better than Mike... It's impossible to say. We just don't know. You cannot predict the future. That's why I'm not saying no one will ever pass Lebron, I'm saying Rose won't pass Lebron. Hey, maybe Austin Rivers is that good..... But I doubt it.


And the only person you can legitimately say is better than Lebron right now is Kobe... And you can't say that for much longer.

Cubs Win
03-21-2011, 05:13 PM
And??? Lebron is only 25... He won't surpass Lebron, I'm sorry to ruin your day. It just won't happen. Here, I'll give it a 10% chance. That's the best you're gonna get. I'm not bashing Rose here. Imo he's already the best PG in the league and could very well be the 2nd best player by the end of the year. But when it comes to "the best," Lebron is taking that cake and eating it too.

Actually LeBron is 26. So I'm not sure how much to trust the rest of what you say.

bringinwood
03-21-2011, 05:13 PM
you have to be kidding? His complete inability to defend his own position is what caused the Sixers to surround him with elite defenders, and his inability to co-exist with another star scorer is what caused them to shy away from bringing one in, and concentrated on using AI to lead their offense completely, since this was the only way to get any high value out of him. Look at any star he has ever played with. They played better without him. If you are referring to steals, AI was allowed to gamble because he had Snow guarding his position, and an elite defensive team behind him to cover mistakes.

Iverson's cast continues to go down as one of the more underrated casts there ever was. That team specifically gave Iverson his best chance to win a ring. It catered to his need to shoot, shoot, shoot, and covered up his liabilities.

I would take Rose any day all day at age 22 going forward.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=iversal01&y1=1998&p2=rosede01&y2=2011

Rose is bigger, stronger, a better defender, and more efficient. Iverson't prime was slightly better offensively than Rose is now, but not by much.

You would be taking ESPN's depiction of Allen Iverson vs Derrick Rose which is fine... Iverson was top 5 in steals 6 times and was never below 10th in the league... He led the league in steals/PG 3 times and was top 8 10 different times...


I would love to see how Rose faired on a team with no power forward, a completely defensive minded center, no point guard, one bench player, and no small forward... If Rose even made the playoffs, i'd be suprised...

I don't like using win shares as a depiction of a "great defensive player" but Iverson is ahead of LBJ, Ron Artest, and Oscar Robertson in career defensive win shares...





I literally stood up and fist pumped after reading this. Spot on.

He's wrong... Not even close to spot on...

hugepatsfan
03-21-2011, 05:15 PM
Steals/Blocks =/= defense

I don't know why this concept is so difficult for PSD to grasp.

Hawkeye15
03-21-2011, 05:16 PM
You would be taking ESPN's depiction of Allen Iverson vs Derrick Rose which is fine... Iverson was top 5 in steals 6 times and was never below 10th in the league... He led the league in steals/PG 3 times and was top 8 10 different times...


I would love to see how Rose faired on a team with no power forward, a completely defensive minded center, no point guard, one bench player, and no small forward... If Rose even made the playoffs, i'd be suprised...

I don't like using win shares as a depiction of a "great defensive player" but Iverson is ahead of LBJ, Ron Artest, and Oscar Robertson in career defensive win shares...






He's wrong... Not even close to spot on...


I don't watch ESPN.

If you are measuring defense on steals, you have a long ways to go my friend. (Monta Ellis is one of the worst defenders in the NBA and is always a league leader in steals)

Um, what did Iverson play in front of? Oh that's right, a top defense.

Defensive statistics all have holes. You have to look deeper. And its extremely easy to see that Iverson was a subpar defender over his career.

Dallas Tx4Life
03-21-2011, 05:17 PM
Actually LeBron is 26. So I'm not sure how much to trust the rest of what you say.

I'm sooooooo sorry that I didn't know his birthday was less than 3 months ago... Please tell me you were kidding, or do you nitpick your way through real life like that too???

Hawkeye15
03-21-2011, 05:18 PM
I'm sooooooo sorry that I didn't know his birthday was less than 3 months ago... Please tell me you were kidding, or do you nitpick your way through real life like that too???

so only has 1 "o"

:)

Hustlenomics
03-21-2011, 05:18 PM
how did Melo's team do with AI? How did they do with Billups (who many think is a lesser player than AI)?

hmmm

Fact is, no other player in that era, on the wing, had the support Iverson did on the defensive end. And people act as if his teammates were scrubs. Its unreal. I am sorry that many of you see players like shiny toys, and unless they are considered by the media to be elite, they are scrubs. But Iverson played with very good players, and ELITE defensive players. The point is, Rose will be better (if he isn't already), and Iverson was never the best player in the NBA at any point of his career.

first season melo missed many games because of that brawl in New York and they lost to the Spurs in the playoffs ( who won the finals that year)
in 07-08 they won 50 games in one of the toughest western conference races in a while and they lost to the Lakers who were champs
the next season when he got traded they won 4 more games with Billups and had an easier road to the finals and lost to their only challenge in the Lakers
and his teammates were scrubs on offense the majority of his career

Flash3
03-21-2011, 05:18 PM
And??? Lebron is only 25... He won't surpass Lebron, I'm sorry to ruin your day. It just won't happen. Here, I'll give it a 10% chance. That's the best you're gonna get. I'm not bashing Rose here. Imo he's already the best PG in the league and could very well be the 2nd best player by the end of the year. But when it comes to "the best," Lebron is taking that cake and eating it too.

no.

Cubs Win
03-21-2011, 05:19 PM
I'm sooooooo sorry that I didn't know his birthday was less than 3 months ago... Please tell me you were kidding, or do you nitpick your way through real life like that too???

Considering that you're a Heat fan with him in you're sig, I'd think you'd know his age. Maybe I just have a higher standard for my own knowledge. Sorry.

allSUAVE
03-21-2011, 05:19 PM
You got to be kidding me with this tread right? Really?