PDA

View Full Version : Is Raymond Felton's decline one of the worst of all-time midseason?



NYSpirit1
03-20-2011, 03:42 AM
Raymond Felton played 54 games with the Knicks and averaged 17.1 PPG and 9.0 APG while playing 38.4 minutes a game in a career year in which he was snubbed for the All-Star game.

He gets traded to the Nuggets, is put on the bench and sees basically every major statistical category plummet (except for 3-point percentage) and is now averaging 10.1 PPG and 6.7 APG with the Nuggets in 11 games.

That drop in averages must be among the highest of all-time. It's really a bad situation for Felton, because not only was he getting a lot of minutes, but he was having a career year in a big market only to be relegated to second string in Denver. The situation he's in now is worse than the one he was in with the Bobcats.

Even though Denver's winning, there's no way he's happy with the situation he's in. It kind of makes you wonder why Denver even bothered including him in the trade when Billups wanted to be in Denver and Felton wanted to stay in New York.

The Knicks could certainly use him at PG right now with Billups playing so atrociously with his new teammates.

Storch
03-20-2011, 03:59 AM
Denver wanted to get as much as they could have snagged from the Knicks for Melo. Felton is now a very good trading chip or a future expiring contract for whatever plans they have conjured up for their roster filled with good role players.

AWC713
03-20-2011, 04:16 AM
yeah sucks to be on a winning team where your statistics go down and are thus less inflated.

JiffyMix88
03-20-2011, 04:23 AM
thats cause hes not starting and stats arn't inflated.

DenButsu
03-20-2011, 04:30 AM
Felton's decline is almost as bad as the desire by some Knicks fans to rationalize away the pain of ending up on the wrong side of the season's biggest trade.

John Walls Era
03-20-2011, 04:44 AM
He wasn't that great anyways. Played in a system where he was allowed to jack up shots. Never even close to an allstar, but was just overrated by many before the trade.

lakerboy
03-20-2011, 04:55 AM
Well Felton is in a better team right now (statistically wise)

Spiggity_ace
03-20-2011, 05:08 AM
i wouldnt mind at all bringing ray felton over to detroit to play for my pistons, but im still hoping they pick a pg in the draft

NYK_kidd77
03-20-2011, 06:08 AM
Felton's decline is almost as bad as the desire by some Knicks fans to rationalize away the pain of ending up on the wrong side of the season's biggest trade.

So I take it your happy you didn't get the Nets package? Cause all I remember prior to trade was Denver fans crying about how bad the Knick players were.

DodgerBulls
03-20-2011, 06:54 AM
Raymond Felton played 54 games with the Knicks and averaged 17.1 PPG and 9.0 APG while playing 38.4 minutes a game in a career year in which he was snubbed for the All-Star game.

He gets traded to the Nuggets, is put on the bench and sees basically every major statistical category plummet (except for 3-point percentage) and is now averaging 10.1 PPG and 6.7 APG with the Nuggets in 11 games.

That drop in averages must be among the highest of all-time. It's really a bad situation for Felton, because not only was he getting a lot of minutes, but he was having a career year in a big market only to be relegated to second string in Denver. The situation he's in now is worse than the one he was in with the Bobcats.

Even though Denver's winning, there's no way he's happy with the situation he's in. It kind of makes you wonder why Denver even bothered including him in the trade when Billups wanted to be in Denver and Felton wanted to stay in New York.

The Knicks could certainly use him at PG right now with Billups playing so atrociously with his new teammates.

Did you also looked at his avg mins with the Nuggets?

J-Relo
03-20-2011, 06:57 AM
he didn't decline, his minutes did

DenButsu
03-20-2011, 07:01 AM
So I take it your happy you didn't get the Nets package? Cause all I remember prior to trade was Denver fans crying about how bad the Knick players were.

I'll be the first to admit to the current Nuggs team with the new Knicks players exceeding my expectations. I was definitely expecting a dropoff rather than a surge in the team's performance after the trade, and it's been a pleasant surprise.

I will say, though, that most of the conflict I saw between Knicks and Nuggets fans with regards to the Knicks package specifically was along the lines of NY fans thinking they'd totally fleece the Nuggs since they "don't have any leverage", and Nuggs fans responding with "well, if all NY's going to offer is Curry's expiring, Chandler and a 2014 pick, then Denver won't accept that deal".

I think most Nuggets fans viewed a two of these three: Gallo/Chandler/Fields plus cap relief/picks package as a reasonably fair offer, but did prefer the Nets package because the picks were better, Favors has All-Star upside in the best case scenario, and with the amount of cap we'd have cleared there would have been great flexibility moving forward.

I don't think practically anybody envisioned a scenario where we'd increase in winning percentage after the trade. Everyone was expecting either a full- or semi- rebuild process, and for many of us, we were worried that a semi-rebuild would get us stuck in a Bucks/Grizzlies-esque limbo, and that if we couldn't be working on contending now, we should be working on building a contender for the future.

All of that said, my comment above was, I guess, taking the bait. But it does really seem to me that the main purpose of this thread is to argue that in spite of Melo being a disappointment, it really is Denver who's worse off now, and I just thought it was kind of funny.

Felton has performed "worse" with the Nuggets. He's also in a timeshare with Lawson. He's also coming off the bench instead of starting. He's also working within a different system which is not focused around any star player.

And he also has been winning games at a higher clip. So I take issue with the premise:

"It's really a bad situation for Felton, because not only was he getting a lot of minutes, but he was having a career year in a big market only to be relegated to second string in Denver."

I'd hope that for most NBA players, winning more games is not a "bad situation".

And because the nowhere matters but New York because it's the center of the god damned universe is just so, so ****ing tired.

UKblazers
03-20-2011, 08:30 AM
No its just the lack of minutes due to lawson being a better player, his numbers were inflated in the NY system.

jp611
03-20-2011, 09:11 AM
Nuggets 9-4 without Melo, Knicks 7-6 with Melo :eyebrow:

Flash3
03-20-2011, 09:53 AM
Raymond Felton played 54 games with the Knicks and averaged 17.1 PPG and 9.0 APG while playing 38.4 minutes a game in a career year in which he was snubbed for the All-Star game.

He gets traded to the Nuggets, is put on the bench and sees basically every major statistical category plummet (except for 3-point percentage) and is now averaging 10.1 PPG and 6.7 APG with the Nuggets in 11 games.

That drop in averages must be among the highest of all-time. It's really a bad situation for Felton, because not only was he getting a lot of minutes, but he was having a career year in a big market only to be relegated to second string in Denver. The situation he's in now is worse than the one he was in with the Bobcats.

Even though Denver's winning, there's no way he's happy with the situation he's in. It kind of makes you wonder why Denver even bothered including him in the trade when Billups wanted to be in Denver and Felton wanted to stay in New York.

The Knicks could certainly use him at PG right now with Billups playing so atrociously with his new teammates.

cause they wanted to rape the knicks.....

save the knicks
03-20-2011, 10:00 AM
OP must be forgetting about Chris Duhon

dimgim
03-20-2011, 10:12 AM
Knicks did Felton wrong he made a choice to go play for the Knicks before the season thinking he and his family could call NY home for awhile then gets traded halfway through the season. The Knicks pretty much took his choice away...quick like to.

dimgim
03-20-2011, 10:15 AM
cause they wanted to rape the knicks.....

This reminds me of a Dane Cook joke...I hardly think a woman that went through that horrific experience would compare it to an NBA team getting a bunch of players for one overrated player.

joeboow90
03-20-2011, 10:34 AM
SMH at this thread. everyone wants to claim something "worst or best of all-time". how the hell is Felton the "worst midseason decline of all-time"? what does that even mean. do you even watch basketball...on the knicks he started and played 30+ minutes every game, on the Nuggets he barely plays 20 mins..ofcouse his stats are gonna go down. SMH at the OP

kurivaimu
03-20-2011, 10:35 AM
Are you kidding? This drop-off is normal for a point guard. I mean, a point guard is the coach on the flor, he has to know all the plays etc. + he is playing less minutes and not starting. Ridiculous thread.

DenButsu
03-20-2011, 10:36 AM
Knicks did Felton wrong he made a choice to go play for the Knicks before the season thinking he and his family could call NY home for awhile then gets traded halfway through the season. The Knicks pretty much took his choice away...quick like to.

Oh, I wouldn't cry for Felton. Anyone signing with the Knicks last summer knew damn well that there was a strong chance they'd get traded to clear room for Melo. If he's mad at anyone for getting traded, he should be mad at himself for signing with a team where it was highly likely.

Slimsim
03-20-2011, 10:40 AM
Oh, I wouldn't cry for Felton. Anyone signing with the Knicks last summer knew damn well that there was a strong chance they'd get traded to clear room for Melo. If he's mad at anyone for getting traded, he should be mad at himself for signing with a team where it was highly likely.

Not true Knicks wanted felton and was upset to trade him. It will be interesting to see who stays or who goes during the off season

kjoke
03-20-2011, 10:43 AM
Nuggets 9-4 without Melo, Knicks 7-6 with Melo :eyebrow:

thought it was 7-7

DenButsu
03-20-2011, 10:45 AM
Not true Knicks wanted felton and was upset to trade him. It will be interesting to see who stays or who goes during the off season

They may have "wanted" him, but everyone under the sun (including Felton) knew they wanted another player more, and that anyone not named Amare would be on the table if push came to shove.

kjoke
03-20-2011, 10:49 AM
I didnt follow the trade but why did denver not keep billups and not trade felton?

LakersIn5
03-20-2011, 10:54 AM
last 8 games.

rondo
6ppg 6.8 apg 32% fg in 31mpg

yeah i know he is playing hurt. but that stat still sucks.. :p

Sync
03-20-2011, 10:55 AM
No.

DwayneMVPwade
03-20-2011, 10:59 AM
he lost Amare and the Pick and Roll and he lost Mike D'antoni system.

ManRam
03-20-2011, 11:17 AM
It's not that huge of a decline if you realize he never really was that great. It was annoying arguing with some of the Knick fans earlier who claimed he was the second best PG in the East at that time. Inflated minutes and an insane tempo don't make you a better player. Sure, his per game stats looked great, but that's not hard to do when you play 40 minutes a game on a team that plays at the second highest pace in the league. Even early in the season, his scoring efficinency was poor, but his PPG looked good because of those two things. His assist% was pretty good, but nothing great, but his APG did look great, again, because of those two things.

Per game stats loved him, but if you took a second to realize why they did, and realize that they were so inflated, it didn't take long to really realize he wasn't really any improved from the year before. The advanced stats suggest that he is still about the same exact player he's been for quite some time.

I also don't think it's a huge fall off. He's now playing with another PG that's a starting caliber player on a team that doesn't have a great low post scorer. It's not as easy for him to rack up the insane per game stats.

He's a good player...but he never will be, and never was, an all-star caliber player.

NYKSpiritBomb
03-20-2011, 11:17 AM
I'll be the first to admit to the current Nuggs team with the new Knicks players exceeding my expectations. I was definitely expecting a dropoff rather than a surge in the team's performance after the trade, and it's been a pleasant surprise.

I will say, though, that most of the conflict I saw between Knicks and Nuggets fans with regards to the Knicks package specifically was along the lines of NY fans thinking they'd totally fleece the Nuggs since they "don't have any leverage", and Nuggs fans responding with "well, if all NY's going to offer is Curry's expiring, Chandler and a 2014 pick, then Denver won't accept that deal".

I think most Nuggets fans viewed a two of these three: Gallo/Chandler/Fields plus cap relief/picks package as a reasonably fair offer, but did prefer the Nets package because the picks were better, Favors has All-Star upside in the best case scenario, and with the amount of cap we'd have cleared there would have been great flexibility moving forward.

I don't think practically anybody envisioned a scenario where we'd increase in winning percentage after the trade. Everyone was expecting either a full- or semi- rebuild process, and for many of us, we were worried that a semi-rebuild would get us stuck in a Bucks/Grizzlies-esque limbo, and that if we couldn't be working on contending now, we should be working on building a contender for the future.

All of that said, my comment above was, I guess, taking the bait. But it does really seem to me that the main purpose of this thread is to argue that in spite of Melo being a disappointment, it really is Denver who's worse off now, and I just thought it was kind of funny.

Felton has performed "worse" with the Nuggets. He's also in a timeshare with Lawson. He's also coming off the bench instead of starting. He's also working within a different system which is not focused around any star player.

And he also has been winning games at a higher clip. So I take issue with the premise:

"It's really a bad situation for Felton, because not only was he getting a lot of minutes, but he was having a career year in a big market only to be relegated to second string in Denver."

I'd hope that for most NBA players, winning more games is not a "bad situation".

And because the nowhere matters but New York because it's the center of the god damned universe is just so, so ****ing tired.

talk about an inferiority complex :facepalm:

fadedmario
03-20-2011, 11:18 AM
Raymond Felton played 54 games with the Knicks and averaged 17.1 PPG and 9.0 APG while playing 38.4 minutes a game in a career year in which he was snubbed for the All-Star game.

He gets traded to the Nuggets, is put on the bench and sees basically every major statistical category plummet (except for 3-point percentage) and is now averaging 10.1 PPG and 6.7 APG with the Nuggets in 11 games.

That drop in averages must be among the highest of all-time. It's really a bad situation for Felton, because not only was he getting a lot of minutes, but he was having a career year in a big market only to be relegated to second string in Denver. The situation he's in now is worse than the one he was in with the Bobcats.

Even though Denver's winning, there's no way he's happy with the situation he's in. It kind of makes you wonder why Denver even bothered including him in the trade when Billups wanted to be in Denver and Felton wanted to stay in New York.

The Knicks could certainly use him at PG right now with Billups playing so atrociously with his new teammates.

What about Melo? 6 points against the Pistons and was shut down by Stuckey... :laugh:

NYKSpiritBomb
03-20-2011, 11:22 AM
a notice a lot of knicks bashing, don't be mad because our team is going somewhere, definately not this year tho.

BigCityofDreams
03-20-2011, 11:25 AM
a notice a lot of knicks bashing, don't be mad because our team is going somewhere, definately not this year tho.

Everyone loves the Nuggets now

NYKSpiritBomb
03-20-2011, 11:42 AM
Everyone loves the Nuggets now

i know, those players we gave them were really good, but at the end of the day they're not going to beat the lakers. at least if we get a def. center and some bench players we can actually compete in the playoffs. so basically we tanked 3 seasons to get 2 allstars, but we weren't goin anywhere if we didn't.

dimgim
03-20-2011, 11:53 AM
Carmelo has to change the way he plays for D'antoni system to run smooth...before the trade you didn't have one guy pounding the ball. Maybe that's a big reason Denver looks so good now it'll take time.

DoMeFavors
03-20-2011, 12:06 PM
Amare aswell as a lot of the Knick shooters got him assits and open looks. Plus he is behind Lawson.

latinofire21
03-20-2011, 12:07 PM
I am getting pretty tired of the correlation of any thread knick nugget related being directly related to the Carmelo Anthony trade. Denbetsu your wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. This has nothing to do with feeling better about the trade because NY fans still feel great about the trade. It was about building for the future not right now. We have more to incorporate then you had to incorporate in your system. Denver is also playing lights out. They havent hit their bump in the road but it will happen soon enough.

Now as to this thread, I do feel bad for Raymond Felton. He did sign a two year deal that he was under the assumption that he would have the freedom to show his talents to earn a bigger contract after the Bobcat situation.

He was doing great for us but Denver forced him to be included in the deal. Sucks for him now because he was trying to play for a big contract only to be relegated to the bench.

All of the NYK haters need to take a step back from the thread and realize something. Denvers pace is just as fast as NYK. Why is NYKs stats inflated and not Denvers? They play practically the same style of ball which is why DENVER HASNT LOST A STEP AND HAS GAINED MOMENTUM.

In a system that is the same he has dropped a lot statistically wise and that hurts him big time for his next contract. These players may care about winning but I think they care more about their next big payday so lets not fool ourselves here.

He is getting screwed big time coming off the bench and regardless of how many W's come in that win column it isnt going to correlate into the money he wants to accumulate come time to retire.

knicks_champ
03-20-2011, 12:09 PM
The OP just said one thing and you guys bashing the Knicks.
Hater-nation is out early today.

hugepatsfan
03-20-2011, 12:11 PM
It's not that huge of a decline if you realize he never really was that great. It was annoying arguing with some of the Knick fans earlier who claimed he was the second best PG in the East at that time. Inflated minutes and an insane tempo don't make you a better player. Sure, his per game stats looked great, but that's not hard to do when you play 40 minutes a game on a team that plays at the second highest pace in the league. Even early in the season, his scoring efficinency was poor, but his PPG looked good because of those two things. His assist% was pretty good, but nothing great, but his APG did look great, again, because of those two things.

Per game stats loved him, but if you took a second to realize why they did, and realize that they were so inflated, it didn't take long to really realize he wasn't really any improved from the year before. The advanced stats suggest that he is still about the same exact player he's been for quite some time.

I also don't think it's a huge fall off. He's now playing with another PG that's a starting caliber player on a team that doesn't have a great low post scorer. It's not as easy for him to rack up the insane per game stats.

He's a good player...but he never will be, and never was, an all-star caliber player.

Preach!!!

DoMeFavors
03-20-2011, 12:11 PM
i know, those players we gave them were really good, but at the end of the day they're not going to beat the lakers. at least if we get a def. center and some bench players we can actually compete in the playoffs. so basically we tanked 3 seasons to get 2 allstars, but we weren't goin anywhere if we didn't.

No the Knicks sucked 10 seasons to get Carmelo and Amare, and how does that give you a better chance at winning than the guys you had? Both teams look like .500 teams.

Dankster
03-20-2011, 12:20 PM
Raymond Felton played 54 games with the Knicks and averaged 17.1 PPG and 9.0 APG while playing 38.4 minutes a game in a career year in which he was snubbed for the All-Star game.

He gets traded to the Nuggets, is put on the bench and sees basically every major statistical category plummet (except for 3-point percentage) and is now averaging 10.1 PPG and 6.7 APG with the Nuggets in 11 games.

That drop in averages must be among the highest of all-time. It's really a bad situation for Felton, because not only was he getting a lot of minutes, but he was having a career year in a big market only to be relegated to second string in Denver. The situation he's in now is worse than the one he was in with the Bobcats.

Even though Denver's winning, there's no way he's happy with the situation he's in. It kind of makes you wonder why Denver even bothered including him in the trade when Billups wanted to be in Denver and Felton wanted to stay in New York.

The Knicks could certainly use him at PG right now with Billups playing so atrociously with his new teammates.

I'm assuming by your SN that you're a knicks fan. Well you should than know that he wasn't snubbed at all...He decided to voluntarily pull himself out of all star discussion with the abysmal performances he was putting up on a nightly basis for the last 6-7 weeks with the team.

Raymond was literally taking the 2nd most shots on our team. I don't want any PG not named D-will or D-Rose taking 16-17+ shots per game for my team. And to make matters even worse, his shot selection was absolutely atrocious and he's a subpar 3 pt shooter to boot.

If the dude knew how to successfully run even 1 Pick and roll with one of the greatest PnR players in the game (Stat,) well maybe he'd still be in Gotham....I'm ecstatic that he's been gone for a month now, i'd much rather have a depleted roster than that guy being the floor general for the knickerbockers....

ManRam
03-20-2011, 12:25 PM
There are probably 15-20 PGs in this league, if not more, that could put up 17 and 9 as the second option on the Knicks given 38 minutes a game and given 15 shots a game. That really isn't that impressive. That's the point a lot of us are trying to make. Especially on a team with a pace factor of 96 and where you are required to expend to effort on the defensive side of the ball.

BigCityofDreams
03-20-2011, 12:32 PM
i know, those players we gave them were really good, but at the end of the day they're not going to beat the lakers. at least if we get a def. center and some bench players we can actually compete in the playoffs. so basically we tanked 3 seasons to get 2 allstars, but we weren't goin anywhere if we didn't.

Exactly it was a move that had to be made but the fans need to give them some time because they weren't going to go from the bottom to the top in mid season.

tredigs
03-20-2011, 12:33 PM
Felton's decline is almost as bad as the desire by some Knicks fans to rationalize away the pain of ending up on the wrong side of the season's biggest trade.

Ding.

NYK|NYY
03-20-2011, 12:35 PM
I love how DEN fans are trying to rationalize their side of the trade with New York's performance. Like that should make a difference. All for you guys saying, 'Hey we are winning, so we're happy', but you can't look at another team's record and have that be the reason you're happy, lol. That's just ignorant.

ewing
03-20-2011, 12:42 PM
I'm assuming by your SN that you're a knicks fan. Well you should than know that he wasn't snubbed at all...He decided to voluntarily pull himself out of all star discussion with the abysmal performances he was putting up on a nightly basis for the last 6-7 weeks with the team.

Raymond was literally taking the 2nd most shots on our team. I don't want any PG not named D-will or D-Rose taking 16-17+ shots per game for my team. And to make matters even worse, his shot selection was absolutely atrocious and he's a subpar 3 pt shooter to boot.

If the dude knew how to successfully run even 1 Pick and roll with one of the greatest PnR players in the game (Stat,) well maybe he'd still be in Gotham....I'm ecstatic that he's been gone for a month now, i'd much rather have a depleted roster than that guy being the floor general for the knickerbockers....


I'm sorry was he literally take the 2nd most shots on the team or was it figuratively?

DenButsu
03-20-2011, 12:56 PM
talk about an inferiority complex :facepalm:

Okay, I'll take you up on that offer.

Let's say, for example, the winning records following the trade were different, and it was the Knicks who went 9-4, and the Nuggets who went 7-7.

And, let's say, given that scenario, that a Nuggets fan just happened to post a thread in the NBA forum calling out Billups for a "WORST OF ALL TIME!!!!" decline.

And let's say a Knicks fan pointed out, in that case, the possibility that that Nuggets fan just might be a little bit bitter about coming out on the worse side of the deal (at least in the short term), and wanting to feel better about it by bashing a former Nugget.

In that case, who would you say has the "inferiority complex", the Knicks fan, or the OP?


I'd say: The OP.


Now:

To address the parts of my post that you highlighted:

When I said "Melo has been a disappointment", I wasn't saying anything that a multitude of Knicks fans haven't said already, and you know that's the damn truth.

And when I said that it's a tired routine for New Yorkers to speak as if New York was the center of the universe and it's the only place that matters, well, that was the truth, too -- it's just that the people inside the NYC bubble don't realize it, for the most part.


And thanks for inviting me to talk about this. I feel better getting that off my chest. :cheers:

DenButsu
03-20-2011, 01:02 PM
I didnt follow the trade but why did denver not keep billups and not trade felton?

Money and youth. Wanted to reduce the payroll and get younger.

Talent probably a factor, too. I'm only speculating, but I'd imagine NYK probably insisted on throwing in Chauncey if they were to give up Gallo.

DenButsu
03-20-2011, 01:09 PM
By the way, for what it's worth, I know there's a lot of variance the opinions of knicks fans, and all my comments above are only meant to take issue with the premise of this thread, not the entire fanbase.

BigCityofDreams
03-20-2011, 01:14 PM
I love how DEN fans are trying to rationalize their side of the trade with New York's performance. Like that should make a difference. All for you guys saying, 'Hey we are winning, so we're happy', but you can't look at another team's record and have that be the reason you're happy, lol. That's just ignorant.

Things will even out in the end for the Nuggets.

Hunter48MVP
03-20-2011, 01:25 PM
No his minutes are

hugepatsfan
03-20-2011, 01:43 PM
NY shouldn't have made the trade. They're roster is just too empty now. People keep saying they're trying to do what MIA did, but there is a huge difference.

Melo and Amare will be on the books for a combined, $39,398,799 in the summer of 2012. By comparison, Wade, Bosh, and Wade count for a total of $43,000,000 this year, BETWEEN THE 3 OF THEM!!!

NY will be able to give CP3 a near max deal of about 14 mil (assuming the cap doesn't drop AND they decline Toney Douglas' option).

But MIA still had the room for Haslem, Chalmers, and Mike Miller under the cap as well. NY is set up horribly. They would have been better off keeping Felton and all the young players and then signing Melo as a FA and building around that IMO.

KnicksorBust
03-20-2011, 01:49 PM
Felton's minutes and usage are down because he's on a team that actually has another good PG on it. The Knicks didn't have that and Felton was forced to play +40 minutes way too often in NY. With Lawson thriving who can blame them for pulling Felton back? In terms of production he's not doing as well but it's not as drastic as the "worst decline of all-time" :laugh: and his per 36 numbers aren't even that far off:

Knicks Per 36 - 16ppg / 9apg / 4rpg /1.7 spg while shooting 42%/33%/87%
Nuggets Per 36 - 12ppg / 8apg / 5rpg / 1.5 spg while shooting 41%/38%/52%

Mudvayne91
03-20-2011, 01:54 PM
I didnt follow the trade but why did denver not keep billups and not trade felton?
$$$$

smith&wesson
03-20-2011, 01:54 PM
he didn't decline, his minutes did

this. i cant beleive the op didnt inclued his minutes in new york and his minutes in devener. obviously if you play less minutes your gonna have less production.

Punk
03-20-2011, 02:00 PM
Ummm, Felton's decline started 2 weeks before the All Star break. He's been playing that way for awhile now. Minutes is not the reason why.

BigCityofDreams
03-20-2011, 02:03 PM
NY shouldn't have made the trade. They're roster is just too empty now. People keep saying they're trying to do what MIA did, but there is a huge difference.

Melo and Amare will be on the books for a combined, $39,398,799 in the summer of 2012. By comparison, Wade, Bosh, and Wade count for a total of $43,000,000 this year, BETWEEN THE 3 OF THEM!!!

NY will be able to give CP3 a near max deal of about 14 mil (assuming the cap doesn't drop AND they decline Toney Douglas' option).

But MIA still had the room for Haslem, Chalmers, and Mike Miller under the cap as well. NY is set up horribly. They would have been better off keeping Felton and all the young players and then signing Melo as a FA and building around that IMO.

Melo wasn't going to make it to free agency.

shizzle09
03-20-2011, 02:19 PM
decline? going from a D Antoni system as a starter to a much different system as abench player doesnt really suggest a decline. If anything his Knicks #'s were inflated.

NYKSpiritBomb
03-20-2011, 02:21 PM
Okay, I'll take you up on that offer.

Let's say, for example, the winning records following the trade were different, and it was the Knicks who went 9-4, and the Nuggets who went 7-7.

And, let's say, given that scenario, that a Nuggets fan just happened to post a thread in the NBA forum calling out Billups for a "WORST OF ALL TIME!!!!" decline.

And let's say a Knicks fan pointed out, in that case, the possibility that that Nuggets fan just might be a little bit bitter about coming out on the worse side of the deal (at least in the short term), and wanting to feel better about it by bashing a former Nugget.

In that case, who would you say has the "inferiority complex", the Knicks fan, or the OP?


I'd say: The OP.


Now:

To address the parts of my post that you highlighted:

When I said "Melo has been a disappointment", I wasn't saying anything that a multitude of Knicks fans haven't said already, and you know that's the damn truth.

And when I said that it's a tired routine for New Yorkers to speak as if New York was the center of the universe and it's the only place that matters, well, that was the truth, too -- it's just that the people inside the NYC bubble don't realize it, for the most part.


And thanks for inviting me to talk about this. I feel better getting that off my chest. :cheers:

length of this post furthers my assumption

shizzle09
03-20-2011, 02:21 PM
NY shouldn't have made the trade. They're roster is just too empty now. People keep saying they're trying to do what MIA did, but there is a huge difference.

Melo and Amare will be on the books for a combined, $39,398,799 in the summer of 2012. By comparison, Wade, Bosh, and Wade count for a total of $43,000,000 this year, BETWEEN THE 3 OF THEM!!!

NY will be able to give CP3 a near max deal of about 14 mil (assuming the cap doesn't drop AND they decline Toney Douglas' option).

But MIA still had the room for Haslem, Chalmers, and Mike Miller under the cap as well. NY is set up horribly. They would have been better off keeping Felton and all the young players and then signing Melo as a FA and building around that IMO.

still amazed they signed for that amount. very good points in this post

AIRMAR72
03-20-2011, 02:22 PM
i say koren butler and lamar odoms numbers went straight down hill when they got traded to LA playing with kobe to me that was the worst decline ever but raymond is not getting the same PT he would be nice fit with da heat or any team inneed of a penetrating PG

NYKSpiritBomb
03-20-2011, 02:27 PM
No the Knicks sucked 10 seasons to get Carmelo and Amare, and how does that give you a better chance at winning than the guys you had? Both teams look like .500 teams.

i've followed you for months, you are the single most homer/narrow minded poster on PSD, i remember you thinking you guys were getting melo and all the trash talking you were doing, stop hating on the knicks, your teams hasn't been to good in recent years to say the least. In response to your post you know just like everybody who is in denial, that the knicks made the right move for the long term, which was their ultimate goal. :cool:

NBA-GMaster
03-20-2011, 02:28 PM
They should have traded Felton and Harrington to Blazers for Miller,Camby and 1st rd pick(Hornets pick)..
with this, Blazers have found their uptempo PG and for the nuggets Miller and Camby are both familiar with Coach Karl's play.. Both give advantages to their teams.. and also both teams will be fighting for 5th seed.. :)

Mudvayne91
03-20-2011, 02:31 PM
He's not playing bad for the Nugs..... People talk about how it's going to take Melo and the Knicks time to get better, which is true. However, all of our players need time to play most effective together. Especially with a PG .

tredigs
03-20-2011, 02:33 PM
length of this post furthers my assumption

And the quality of your response should further his.

If anyone honestly believes that Ray Felton "declined" on his flight from NY to Denver, then there is no point responding with a detailed, thought out response. They aren't trying to hear it.

And as the games progress, it becomes increasing clear just how big Denver scored on that trade. A franchise crippling fail by NY (and just when it looked like they had some daylight. Sad).

KnicksorBust
03-20-2011, 02:45 PM
And the quality of your response should further his.

If anyone honestly believes that Ray Felton "declined" on his flight from NY to Denver, then there is no point responding with a detailed, thought out response. They aren't trying to hear it.

And as the games progress, it becomes increasing clear just how big Denver scored on that trade. A franchise crippling fail by NY (and just when it looked like they had some daylight. Sad).

I don't understand this perspective at all. Carmelo and Amar'e have both reached the Conference Finals and Billups has a ring. They got 3 proven winners who are all All-Star caliber players. The current core wasn't going to break through. This team now has a core of talent that can.

Kashmir13579
03-20-2011, 03:00 PM
i couldn't stand Ray. wack-*** shot selection.

xxcubs22xx
03-20-2011, 03:23 PM
he didn't decline, his minutes did

This.

And Felton wasn't snubbed. He's simply not an all-star.

Fnom11
03-20-2011, 03:40 PM
Lawson>Felton. I think he realizes he's only a future trading chip.

sunsfan88
03-20-2011, 03:44 PM
They should trade him to PHX. He can be good in our system as he showed earlier in the season. Lopez + pick for him!

LA_Raiders
03-20-2011, 04:13 PM
He will be a great trade asset for next year... lots of teams with a need of PG.

BallIsAll
03-20-2011, 04:52 PM
I don't understand this perspective at all. Carmelo and Amar'e have both reached the Conference Finals and Billups has a ring. They got 3 proven winners who are all All-Star caliber players. The current core wasn't going to break through. This team now has a core of talent that can.


lets just say you should change your username to

knicksRbusts .

blastmasta26
03-20-2011, 08:26 PM
And the quality of your response should further his.

If anyone honestly believes that Ray Felton "declined" on his flight from NY to Denver, then there is no point responding with a detailed, thought out response. They aren't trying to hear it.

And as the games progress, it becomes increasing clear just how big Denver scored on that trade. A franchise crippling fail by NY (and just when it looked like they had some daylight. Sad).

Well that's what happens when Dolan is involved.

latinofire21
03-20-2011, 08:37 PM
lets just say you should change your username to

knicksRbusts .

Great Comment. Way to represent the Nugget Forums.

Dont really understand why all these threads always go back to the trade when it was a thread mearly stating Feltons decline. Regardless of the factors in the minutes or the system it still is a decline.

For Felton its problematic because he wants a big contract and hes not going to get it playing behind Lawson regardless of the minutes he gets there.

I dont care what statistic you guys give me but the offense is pretty much the same between the Nuggets and the Knicks. A whole lot of offense and very little low scoring games! Not bad defense but mearly stating too many possessions to hold a team under 100 points. Both teams are built that way so if NYK's stats are inflated so are Denvers.

All the factors are equivalent except for playing time which fluctuates and also that he doesnt have a go to guy to help him get the assists at a higher clip.

The advantages of the trade is he has a center and a power forward he can pass to now that are regular scoring options.

For Felton regardless of anyones opinion on the matter its problematic for him.

A) Hes not starting.
B) Hes a backup to a younger point gaurd
C) Hes on a short deal = Which means for him to earn a big payday hes going to have to earn it in his next deal and that means these 2 years are a wash for him.
D) There is a decline in Feltons production and the blame is on Karl and the NUggets organization for not trading him to a place where he can get maximum minutes and focusing on implementing him into the offense faster if they planned on keeping him. (I personally believe they just asked for him to show the league they werent getting walked over, They didnt really want him to begin with. Same with Mosgov) I think Denver screwed up because they are going to get way less for him after this season if they keep him as a backup. They would have got a whole lot more trading him at the deadline then they will get next year after he sits for the rest of this season and however long next season behind lawson as a back up point guard. I also blame Felton for not getting a no trade clause in his contract because it must suck for him to not be able to block a trade after he was just starting to show what he can do in the league to now being relegated as a backup for another UNC alumni who came out of college after him.

DoMeFavors
03-20-2011, 08:38 PM
i've followed you for months, you are the single most homer/narrow minded poster on PSD, i remember you thinking you guys were getting melo and all the trash talking you were doing, stop hating on the knicks, your teams hasn't been to good in recent years to say the least. In response to your post you know just like everybody who is in denial, that the knicks made the right move for the long term, which was their ultimate goal. :cool:

Trading for the future??? The Knicks traded for him to win now! It would be opposite if they traded Melo to get Gallo and CHandler and them that would be for the future. You dont trade for a star to win in the future...makes no sense.

NYKSpiritBomb
03-20-2011, 08:50 PM
Trading for the future??? The Knicks traded for him to win now! It would be opposite if they traded Melo to get Gallo and CHandler and them that would be for the future. You dont trade for a star to win in the future...makes no sense.

you got it twisted, we gutted our team for two players.

drobe86
03-20-2011, 09:00 PM
It was the system that made Felton look good. He's ok but at this point he'll rot on the bench..... Just another overrated UNC player that didn't turn out so well on the next level....

hugepatsfan
03-20-2011, 09:17 PM
Melo wasn't going to make it to free agency.

Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't. But I think NY really crippled themselves by making this move. I think they are worse off now then they would have been if they hoped for him to go to FA and he didn't. Not hating, just my opinion.

thekmp211
03-20-2011, 09:24 PM
his play tapered off while he was still on the knicks. i'm not sure what the point is here, most people have their stats go down when they see less minutes. it's not historic, because he was never playing all that well to begin with. he got off to a hot start, but came down to earth.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
03-20-2011, 09:27 PM
Well I think he isn't the Nuggets starting PG and Lawson is instead. Also under Dantoni's system makes everyones offensive stats much better.

DenButsu
03-20-2011, 09:35 PM
length of this post furthers my assumption

:laugh2: Man, really? That's what you come back with?

Sorry, but fail. On two counts: lame "comeback" (if we can even call it that), and failure to actually address my post.

Besides, you obviously don't know me. I'm not exactly known for brevity.

KnicksorBust
03-20-2011, 09:37 PM
People can hate on the Melo deal for the Knicks and rag on him for defense and not bein a creator like LeBron but I'll tell you what he's been a game closer for a legit playoff team for the last 6-7 years. The league has no idea how Amar'e was getting worn down before Carmelo came. Next year when the Knicks have filled in some holes in their rotation they will be cruising to +50 wins.

NYKnicks4511
03-20-2011, 09:38 PM
Felton's decline is almost as bad as the desire by some Knicks fans to rationalize away the pain of ending up on the wrong side of the season's biggest trade.

Or his decline might even be as bad as the popularity of the Nuggets forum, or the Nuggets' record and attendance numbers the next few seasons when their hot streak ends.

At the end of the day NYK got a superstar player and a finals MVP for role players. Someone who's been on the boards as long as you have should know that this trade's impact on both teams can't be judged after a few games.

DenButsu
03-20-2011, 09:41 PM
Or his decline might even be as bad as the popularity of the Nuggets forum, or the Nuggets' record and attendance numbers the next few seasons when their hot streak ends.

At the end of the day NYK got a superstar player and a finals MVP for role players. Someone who's been on the boards as long as you have should know that this trade's impact on both teams can't be judged after a few games.

The Nuggs forum has been blowing up since the trade.

The Pepsi Center has been selling out games consistently.

The sports fans in Colorado prefer guys who play hard, with heart, to divas.

And finals MVP? Well, I'll just leave that one out there to twist in the wind...

NYKnicks4511
03-20-2011, 09:43 PM
Trading for the future??? The Knicks traded for him to win now! It would be opposite if they traded Melo to get Gallo and CHandler and them that would be for the future. You dont trade for a star to win in the future...makes no sense.

I think what he meant was that it's not going to change the Knicks into a championship contender this year. While the Nets improved dramatically because of the trade with Utah, it's because Deron has the ball in his hands so much and can create with freedom.

Mike D's offense is about ball movement and Melo is used to being iso'd for full possessions at a time. As we saw with the Heat, chemistry is just as important as who is out there on the floor.

Lim
03-20-2011, 09:53 PM
i dont understand this thread. of course his stats are gonna drop off, hes splitting minutes with ty lawson and his usage has gone down cause he isnt the main point guard anymore. wtf u think is gonna happen?

NYKnicks4511
03-20-2011, 09:53 PM
The Nuggs forum has been blowing up since the trade.

The Pepsi Center has been selling out games consistently.

The sports fans in Colorado prefer guys who play hard, with heart, to divas.

And finals MVP? Well, I'll just leave that one out there to twist in the wind...

Of course the forum is doing well now, because Nuggets are riding a hot streak. The Knicks forums 'blew up' when we traded for Sergio freaking Rodriguez.

When your team wins 23-33 games a year like mine did for the past decade, then lets see how the attendance numbers are/ how active the forum is.

I guess Denver fans didn't enjoy making the playoffs and the WCFs because they had a diva on their team. I mean, it's so awful watching Carmelo Anthony win games. I'd rather lose with 'heart' than watch that prima donna, word?

To answer the question, Felton is a solid player, he's a starter in this league or a 6th man on a playoff team, but I don't think he deserved to be an All-Star this year and I also don't believe he got worse this season. His minutes just deteriorated.

Game_Over
03-20-2011, 10:45 PM
Maybe Knicks fans want him back so they can beat a team below .500??

BigCityofDreams
03-21-2011, 11:22 AM
Of course the forum is doing well now, because Nuggets are riding a hot streak. The Knicks forums 'blew up' when we traded for Sergio freaking Rodriguez.

When your team wins 23-33 games a year like mine did for the past decade, then lets see how the attendance numbers are/ how active the forum is.

I guess Denver fans didn't enjoy making the playoffs and the WCFs because they had a diva on their team. I mean, it's so awful watching Carmelo Anthony win games. I'd rather lose with 'heart' than watch that prima donna, word?

To answer the question, Felton is a solid player, he's a starter in this league or a 6th man on a playoff team, but I don't think he deserved to be an All-Star this year and I also don't believe he got worse this season. His minutes just deteriorated.

It's amazing how Melo is being thrown under the bus. I'm not saying he's perfect but it's surprising how the Nuggets are making it seem like the things he accomplished occurred in spite of him.

IBleedPurple
03-21-2011, 03:16 PM
This thread is stupid......if anyone plays less minutes, it's likely their production will drop.

Tony_Starks
03-21-2011, 06:19 PM
Felton? We talkin bout Felton!