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kjoke
03-16-2011, 01:46 PM
The Bulls have been on a tear and now getting (so far) the #1 Seed in the East. Rose is pretty much penciled in as MVP and Thibs as COY. Yet if you have to pinpoint their success this year would it be Rose's improvements from last year or the hiring of Thibs more significant in their improved play?

redsox0717
03-16-2011, 01:48 PM
Thibs. They didn't improve that much defensively on coincidence. He turned them into one of the best defensive teams in the NBA

Hustlenomics
03-16-2011, 01:56 PM
^ Yep they wouldn't have their record without Thibs

ManRam
03-16-2011, 02:02 PM
I've made my case pretty clear.

If you go back between last year and this year and look at what has changed on the team, it has been defense, not offense. Yes, Rose has improved...but the defensive turnaround has been the more significant change.

This year their offensive efficiency is at 107.2. Their defensive efficiency at 99.8.

Last year their offensive efficiency was 103.5. Their defensive efficiency was 105.8.

Net changed of +3.7 on offense and +6.0 on defense.

If you just want to look at points per game. The change in points allowed has been exactly +8.0 points a game. Change in points scored has been just +0.4.

They are scoring less than a point more a game this year than last.

Again, both deserve major props...but with as much love as Rose gets from his Chicago fan base, I'm just surprised Thibs doesn't get even more. He's a defensive mastermind...and the turnaround in defense has been, I think, the biggest reason why they have gone from 8th to 1st. I'm not trying to slight Rose, he deserves the MVP...I'm just trying to give credit where credit is due...and defense is why this team wins games. It's BY FAR the best in the league.

RZZZA
03-16-2011, 02:06 PM
Thibs for bringing the best out of everybody. Rose and Deng would not be playing at this level if it weren't for Thibs.

Hell, he's even managed to make Bogans look good.

bovice163
03-16-2011, 02:06 PM
I've made my case pretty clear.

If you go back between last year and this year and look at what has changed on the team, it has been defense, not offense. Yes, Rose has improved...but the defensive turnaround has been the more significant change.

This year their offensive efficiency is at 107.2. Their defensive efficiency at 99.8.

Last year their offensive efficiency was 103.5. Their defensive efficiency was 105.8.

Net changed of +3.7 on offense and +6.0 on defense.

If you just want to look at points per game. The change in points allowed has been exactly +8.0 points a game. Change in points scored has been just +0.4.

They are scoring less than a point more a game this year than last.

Again, both deserve major props...but with as much love as Rose gets from his Chicago fan base, I'm just surprised Thibs doesn't get even more. He's a defensive mastermind...and the turnaround in defense has been, I think, the biggest reason why they have gone from 8th to 1st. I'm not trying to slight Rose, he deserves the MVP...I'm just trying to give credit where credit is due...and defense is why this team wins games. It's BY FAR the best in the league.

I'll agree with this post. But to those saying Thibs deserves ALL the credit, are just as wrong as the ones saying that Rose does as well.

kjoke
03-16-2011, 02:07 PM
I am interested in seeing why steBO selected rose :shrug:

chicago lulz
03-16-2011, 02:10 PM
can't both deserve the same amount of recognition? w/o thibs Bulls wouldn't be where they're at. w/o rose Bulls wouldn't be where they're at.

edit: and I believe thibs gets a lot of love from bulls fans. just a lot more times the player gets more lve because he's out there on the court producing what the coach has enstilled. although I will say thibs is standing on the court for the majority of the game.

sticky a coy award thread and you'll have as many bulls fans arguing for thibs

Albrecht Duerer
03-16-2011, 02:13 PM
Its really both. Foundationally, the Bulls hang their hat on tremendous team defense. They've been a defensive powerhouse and the scary thing is, they continue to improve. This has Thibs written all over it. Another telling stat is that, during the Bulls first 17 games when there were new players getting on board with a new system from a new coach, the Bulls were 9-8. Since the 17th game, which was in early December, the Bulls' winning % is .800. Rose has been awesome all year. He was awesome when they were 9-8. But what has changed is coaching molding talent into a strong defense. There are rough patches on offense that Rose has to carry the Bulls through, and he does. Credit also goes to the front office for putting together this collection of players that are all willing defenders and are willing to take a back seat to Rose.

But having said all that, if someone were to say, the Bulls' defense keeps them in games so Rose can win them, I wouldn't really object. You could also look at it that way.

shizzle09
03-16-2011, 02:16 PM
Rose but mad props to thibs. Doesnt matter what Thibs does if he doesnt have Rose.

Hustlenomics
03-16-2011, 02:18 PM
without Thibs they were 8th place in the East
Thibs comes they play D and are a top seed in the east :shrug:

RZZZA
03-16-2011, 02:20 PM
without Thibs they were 8th place in the East
Thibs comes they play D and are a top seed in the east :shrug:

well thats a bit misleading because our team was also so different last year...

Albrecht Duerer
03-16-2011, 02:22 PM
without Thibs they were 8th place in the East
Thibs comes they play D and are a top seed in the east :shrug:

Meh. Last year the front office stripped the roster in preparation of last summer. The Bulls had significant injuries and once they got Noah back, they were able to reel in Cleveland. It took Cleveland to 6 games to beat Chicago with a number of bad calls in game 6 and a number of games being close.

It's safe to say that over the past two years, the Bulls, in spite of VdN, have outplayed their seeding.

Thibs deserves enormous credit it but its also naive to ignore the other moving pieces in this.

Tarheels23
03-16-2011, 02:23 PM
Thibs, but are people forgetting about Boozer? He is miles better than Gibson...

Hustlenomics
03-16-2011, 02:24 PM
Meh. Last year the front office stripped the roster in preparation of last summer. The Bulls had significant injuries and once they got Noah back, they were able to reel in Cleveland. It took Cleveland to 6 games to beat Chicago with a number of bad calls in game 6 and a number of games being close.

It's safe to say that over the past two years, the Bulls, in spite of VdN, have outplayed their seeding.

Thibs deserves enormous credit it but its also naive to ignore the other moving pieces in this.

I'm pretty sure Lebron beat the Bulls in 5 games

haggis
03-16-2011, 02:26 PM
I am interested in seeing why steBO selected rose :shrug:

He's a closet Bulls fan ;)

haggis
03-16-2011, 02:27 PM
Thibs, but are people forgetting about Boozer? He is miles better than Gibson...

Offensively yes. Defensively he's miles behind Gibson.

DaBear
03-16-2011, 02:27 PM
Both. Without Rose's MVP caliber season, the Bulls would not be near the #1 seed. Without Thibs defensive mastermind, the Bulls would not be near the #1 seed. I give credit to both of them for currently having the Bulls at the #1 seed. I can't give more credit to one more than the other because they almost need each other to be where they are.

Albrecht Duerer
03-16-2011, 02:28 PM
I'm pretty sure Lebron beat the Bulls in 5 games

I just realized that. I just remembered the last game being at Cleveland which I was thinking would have been game 6.

mania03
03-16-2011, 02:30 PM
well thats a bit misleading because our team was also so different last year...

Lol def misleading. But it's clear Rose is the real deal here. Coach cant do much without talent no matter what anyone says. The defensive side is a lot better but Rose's improvement is surprising to me. Hes been carying this team with the other key guys Deng Noah Boozer chipping in. I mean the team is a lot better from last year no doubt. But I would give this one to Rose just cause hes developed his game so much after playing in the olympics and training in the off-season. Hes slowly getting to super-star caliber. And I have him on my Top 5 list.

kjoke
03-16-2011, 02:31 PM
He's a closet Bulls fan ;)

lol for the most part people on here say thibs but also both because rose is HIGHLY influencing on the team, and that is understandable

SteBO
03-16-2011, 02:32 PM
I am interested in seeing why steBO selected rose :shrug:
Don't get we wrong, Thibs deserve a lot of credit, but I selected Rose not just because of his improvement, but his overall leadership skills. Thibs has a defensive system in place and it's made a difference for sure. But at the same time, no way are the Bulls a #1 seed without Rose playing he has. It's really 50-50, but since Rose is the clear-cut leader and star of that team, I give the slight edge to him.

Flash3
03-16-2011, 02:34 PM
vinny del negro

bovice163
03-16-2011, 02:35 PM
vinny del negro

this guys got jokes

JordansBulls
03-16-2011, 02:37 PM
This is Rose's 3rd year, and your 3rd or 4th year is usually the year you break out

Sadds The Gr8
03-16-2011, 02:37 PM
Thibs. he gave them that defensive identity. Rose makes them good, but they were always a perennial 8th seed. Thibs gave them the extra bump.

justinnum1
03-16-2011, 02:38 PM
Thibs, no doubt.

mttwlsn16
03-16-2011, 02:38 PM
thibs coach of the yr
Rose MVP

mttwlsn16
03-16-2011, 02:39 PM
and no way long island beats UNC this weekened lol

kjoke
03-16-2011, 02:44 PM
and no way long island beats UNC this weekened lol

you shall see ;)

justinnum1
03-16-2011, 02:45 PM
thibs coach of the yr
Rose MVP

I agree thibs coach of the yea, but rose would be more deserving of Most improved player.

chi-townlove1
03-16-2011, 02:47 PM
I've made my case pretty clear.

If you go back between last year and this year and look at what has changed on the team, it has been defense, not offense. Yes, Rose has improved...but the defensive turnaround has been the more significant change.

This year their offensive efficiency is at 107.2. Their defensive efficiency at 99.8.

Last year their offensive efficiency was 103.5. Their defensive efficiency was 105.8.

Net changed of +3.7 on offense and +6.0 on defense.

If you just want to look at points per game. The change in points allowed has been exactly +8.0 points a game. Change in points scored has been just +0.4.

They are scoring less than a point more a game this year than last.

Again, both deserve major props...but with as much love as Rose gets from his Chicago fan base, I'm just surprised Thibs doesn't get even more. He's a defensive mastermind...and the turnaround in defense has been, I think, the biggest reason why they have gone from 8th to 1st. I'm not trying to slight Rose, he deserves the MVP...I'm just trying to give credit where credit is due...and defense is why this team wins games. It's BY FAR the best in the league.

this completely, so well put.

DROSE4MVP
03-16-2011, 02:48 PM
Both. It'd be pretty sweet if both Thibs got COY and Rose got MVP. Don't know if that's ever happened...?

Does anyone else notice all Heat fans taking Thibs? Haha, just wanted to state that. It's not to hate or anything, just a weird coincidence that's all. :eyebrow:

bullsnbills24
03-16-2011, 02:49 PM
Thibs. They didn't improve that much defensively on coincidence. He turned them into one of the best defensive teams in the NBA

Ok Rose and Thibs together=60 wins
Rose with no Thibs=52-53 wins
Thibs with no Rose=35 wins


Now who is more important????

bullsnbills24
03-16-2011, 02:51 PM
Both. It'd be pretty sweet if both Thibs got COY and Rose got MVP. Don't know if that's ever happened...?

Does anyone else notice all Heat fans taking Thibs? Haha, just wanted to state that. It's not to hate or anything, just a weird coincidence that's all. :eyebrow:

Yeah it's funny how the Heat fans early in the year were talking abou thow great they were and how we were going to be a 5th place team and they were going to kick our teath in........These are the same guys clamoring about how Rose is not that good and he isn't a top 5 player.

DROSE4MVP
03-16-2011, 02:55 PM
Yeah it's funny how the Heat fans early in the year were talking abou thow great they were and how we were going to be a 5th place team and they were going to kick our teath in........These are the same guys clamoring about how Rose is not that good and he isn't a top 5 player.

Alright, before this get's out of hand... I don't wanna be the instigator to start another hate war. I was just stating that it's weird most of the Heat fans picked Thibs. That's all. Most people don't credit the Coach, but in this case we should credit both.

RZZZA
03-16-2011, 03:09 PM
Alright, before this get's out of hand... I don't wanna be the instigator to start another hate war. I was just stating that it's weird most of the Heat fans picked Thibs. That's all. Most people don't credit the Coach, but in this case we should credit both.

I've noticed a lot of Thibs love in general recently from fans of other teams.

Go to the Knicks forum sometime, particularly after a bad loss. You'll see a lot of people saying how they wish they had a coach like Thibs

D1JM
03-16-2011, 03:11 PM
I've made my case pretty clear.

If you go back between last year and this year and look at what has changed on the team, it has been defense, not offense. Yes, Rose has improved...but the defensive turnaround has been the more significant change.

This year their offensive efficiency is at 107.2. Their defensive efficiency at 99.8.

Last year their offensive efficiency was 103.5. Their defensive efficiency was 105.8.

Net changed of +3.7 on offense and +6.0 on defense.

If you just want to look at points per game. The change in points allowed has been exactly +8.0 points a game. Change in points scored has been just +0.4.

They are scoring less than a point more a game this year than last.

Again, both deserve major props...but with as much love as Rose gets from his Chicago fan base, I'm just surprised Thibs doesn't get even more. He's a defensive mastermind...and the turnaround in defense has been, I think, the biggest reason why they have gone from 8th to 1st. I'm not trying to slight Rose, he deserves the MVP...I'm just trying to give credit where credit is due...and defense is why this team wins games. It's BY FAR the best in the league.

But y compare this season to last season if it's different players different coaches?

Cool007
03-16-2011, 03:19 PM
I'll agree with this post. But to those saying Thibs deserves ALL the credit, are just as wrong as the ones saying that Rose does as well.

THIS x100000000000.

IMO, both are equally responsible for Bulls' success.

Coaches can draw up whatever the heck they want, coaches and play whoever they want and whatever they do to motivate the team, AT THE END OF THE DAY YOU HAVE TO HAVE YOUR BEST PLAYER/LEADER CARRY THE TEAM TO VICTORY.

That is what Rose does. Bulls have ton of defensive minded players (Noah/Gibson/Asik/Kurt/Deng/Brewer and now Rose) That's a HUGE chuck of your rotation players playing defense. This is why Bulls are good - not because of Thibs turning Boozer/Korver into defensive players.

Thibs hides their weaknesses by having other 4 players that play good defense and really almost never have BOTH Korver and Boozer in at a same time.

In short, Bulls would be Milwaukee Bucks without Derrrick Rose - even with Thibs coaching. No matter how good defensively you are, you still need to score - especially in the 4th and you need a closer. This is where Rose comes in.

This is why BOTH are equally responsible for What Bulls have done. Giving 1 credit while not to the other is a COMPLETE and UTTERLY a JOKE.

poleandreel
03-16-2011, 03:34 PM
Rose last 12 games:

8/21 38%
9/24 37%
7/15 47%
8/21 38%
12/23 52%
9/20 45%
5/21 24%
7/17 41%
7/19 36%
9/24 37%
8/22 36%
18/28 64%
5/14 35%

8/12 games are under 40%

There are not many teams in the league that can win when their star player, who shoots 20 shots a game, makes less than 45% of their fg attempts. Rose has an awful percentage but his teams defense, along with deng/boozer, really bail him out. If Rose was on any other team he would shoot them right out of the game. This team is good because of THIBS AND THIBS ONLY

BUT HE IS YOUR MVP RIGHT?? LOL what a joke the nba is. :facepalm:

DLeeicious
03-16-2011, 03:37 PM
Deng, Rose and Thibs

Hawkeye15
03-16-2011, 03:39 PM
Yes, Rose has made improvements, and is creeping into that top 10 player area. But their big turnaround, and record, are far more reflective of Thib's and his defensive philosophy. Now, they obviously need the personel to run a great defense, and in Noah, Deng, Brewer, Asik, Gibson, and even Rose to a degree, they have guys who are very capable and willing defenders. They are middle of the pack offensively, and by far and away the best defensive team. Obviously, this would lead anyone on earth with common sense to say their defense has been more important in the win column.

Chicago's defense is why Rose is an MVP candidate quite honestly. There are PG's playing better individually this season, but none of them have the defense and win total to go along with it.

Rose fans get bent out of shape when the claim is made that "Rose may win MVP, but that doesn't mean he is a top 5 player". Nash won two of them in the same manner. How is it so hard to believe that MVP doesn't always go to a top player?

Thibs should win COY, easily, and its not even close for selection #2 imo.

D1JM
03-16-2011, 03:45 PM
Rose last 12 games:

8/21 38%
9/24 37%
7/15 47%
8/21 38%
12/23 52%
9/20 45%
5/21 24%
7/17 41%
7/19 36%
9/24 37%
8/22 36%
18/28 64%
5/14 35%

8/12 games are under 40%

There are not many teams in the league that can win when their star player, who shoots 20 shots a game, makes less than 45% of their fg attempts. Rose has an awful percentage but his teams defense, along with deng/boozer, really bail him out. If Rose was on any other team he would shoot them right out of the game. This team is good because of THIBS AND THIBS ONLY

BUT HE IS YOUR MVP RIGHT?? LOL what a joke the nba is. :facepalm:

Yet rose is responsible for the most team offense% produce from a single player in any NBA team

poleandreel
03-16-2011, 03:56 PM
Yet rose is responsible for the most team offense% produce from a single player in any NBA team

so are you dismissing all of the evidence i just posted?

Want me to post his turnovers as well? because that will only further prove my point

D1JM
03-16-2011, 03:58 PM
Yes, Rose has made improvements, and is creeping into that top 10 player area. But their big turnaround, and record, are far more reflective of Thib's and his defensive philosophy. Now, they obviously need the personel to run a great defense, and in Noah, Deng, Brewer, Asik, Gibson, and even Rose to a degree, they have guys who are very capable and willing defenders. They are middle of the pack offensively, and by far and away the best defensive team. Obviously, this would lead anyone on earth with common sense to say their defense has been more important in the win column.

Chicago's defense is why Rose is an MVP candidate quite honestly. There are PG's playing better individually this season, but none of them have the defense and win total to go along with it.

Rose fans get bent out of shape when the claim is made that "Rose may win MVP, but that doesn't mean he is a top 5 player". Nash won two of them in the same manner. How is it so hard to believe that MVP doesn't always go to a top player?

Thibs should win COY, easily, and its not even close for selection #2 imo.
Finally a person that is not a bulls fan sees that we have more defensive minded personal than offensive. I believe for those obvious reasons we will have a less offensive efficiency, but you can't discount that the team is still adapting to each other. Our last 25% of games we have a differential of 8.88+ so...

DLeeicious
03-16-2011, 03:59 PM
so are you dismissing all of the evidence i just posted?

Want me to post his turnovers as well? because that will only further prove my point

Of course not. Field goal percentage is a great way to evaluate a player. Keep up the good fight, you have a real grasp on this sort of thing it seems.

D1JM
03-16-2011, 04:00 PM
so are you dismissing all of the evidence i just posted?

Want me to post his turnovers as well? because that will only further prove my point

Yea because box scores tell everything, right?

DLeeicious
03-16-2011, 04:03 PM
Okay it took some gathering but I've determined the top 10 players in the league (using FG% as evidence, do you need me to get turnovers too? Because I'll do that to further support my point).

Nene Hilario, C
Dwight Howard, C
Amir Johnson, PF
Al Horford, C
Serge Ibaka, PF
Thaddeus Young, F
Lamar Odom, PF
Kris Humphries, PF
Dirk Nowitzki, PF
Paul Millsap, PF

D1JM
03-16-2011, 04:04 PM
Brian Windhorst: Derrick Rose has scored or assisted on 45.2% of Bulls baskets, highest in league. LeBron is 2nd with 42.9% That sounds like an MVP stat.

I believe we have the worst producing shooting guard duo offensively in the NBA, so hopefully through free agency( if there is a mle) we get a shooting guard.

poleandreel
03-16-2011, 04:06 PM
Okay it took some gathering but I've determined the top 10 players in the league (using FG% as evidence, do you need me to get turnovers too? Because I'll do that to further support my point).

Nene Hilario, C
Dwight Howard, C
Amir Johnson, PF
Al Horford, C
Serge Ibaka, PF
Thaddeus Young, F
Lamar Odom, PF
Kris Humphries, PF
Dirk Nowitzki, PF
Paul Millsap, PF

Great attempt at an argument. every single person in the top 10-15 mvp list has a higher fg% than rose as well as less turnovers. he happens to take the 2nd most shots in the nba and doesnt average anywhere near the most points.

abe_froman
03-16-2011, 04:10 PM
its pretty equal,but i gave the edge to thibs.without rose the bulls would be the bucks.skiles always has his teams playing tough d but the offsense is anemic as hell in his system...it would be if you took rose off the bulls.if you to thibs off they're still be top 4 seed(probably 4th clearly)

so its actually a good marriage between the two,both need each other for this to work

poleandreel
03-16-2011, 04:11 PM
Rose is also ranked 84 in the nba in fg%. with the likes of channing frye, vince carter, and charlie v. Great company he is in.

Lebron is 34
wade is 33
dwight is 2
cp3 is 49

All are miles ahead of rose in that category.

mvp favorites are never that low

D1JM
03-16-2011, 04:13 PM
its pretty equal,but i gave the edge to thibs.without rose the bulls would be the bucks.skiles always has his teams playing tough d but the offsense is anemic as hell in his system...it would be if you took rose off the bulls.if you to thibs off they're still be top 4 seed(probably 4th clearly)

so its actually a good marriage between the two,both need each other for this to work

Yup it is a good marriage. You can't give all the credit to one single person in the bulls because they are well deserving. Even scal points out defensive assignments that are missed.

DLeeicious
03-16-2011, 04:14 PM
Great attempt at an argument. every single person in the top 10-15 mvp list has a higher fg% than rose as well as less turnovers. he happens to take the 2nd most shots in the nba and doesnt average anywhere near the most points.

Not sure if you noticed any sarcasm in my post. All I'm saying is in the future don't use FG% as an argument especially for a point guard who shoots three pointers. That's like arguing wins and losses for a pitcher to determine a better pitcher.

D1JM
03-16-2011, 04:15 PM
Rose is also ranked 84 in the nba in fg%. with the likes of channing frye, vince carter, and charlie v. Great company he is in.

Lebron is 34
wade is 33
dwight is 2
cp3 is 49

All are miles ahead of rose in that category.

mvp favorites are never that low

I didn't know the MVP award was best fg%

poleandreel
03-16-2011, 04:16 PM
Also if Rose wins mvp this year, he will have the 2nd worst fg% of any player in the last 50 years. So yea, he really deserves all of this credit.

Its not even like he leads the league in scoring or averages the most assists. He is an inefficient player who has a really good team and coach.

ManRam
03-16-2011, 04:16 PM
But y compare this season to last season if it's different players different coaches?

OK. Then, if we aren't looking at last year period, why is Rose the MVP? If the NBA just started this year, and this was the first year of its existence, Rose isn't the MVP. He's winning the MVP this year because of the Bulls turnaround, not because he's having an amazing season. Hell, he's having one of the worst seasons ever for an MVP winner. So you can't use that logic. If you are, you can't use it for this and not for Rose.

Yes, players have changed, coaches have changed, but the reason the point differential has gone from -1.6 to +6.7 is because of the change in defense.

So if you have a different tangible argument, feel free to counter it...but that rhetoric isn't persuading me.

poleandreel
03-16-2011, 04:18 PM
I didn't know the MVP award was best fg%

yea well when only 1 MVP winner in the past 50 years has a lower fg% than you, it says something. Also, iverson won it because he was averaging 31 PPG that year. far more than rose

Chitownhero14
03-16-2011, 04:19 PM
I think both of them deserve both awards and the bigger factor is probably Thibs right now changing everyone, Rose has made others better but Thibs made the TEAM better

poleandreel
03-16-2011, 04:19 PM
Not sure if you noticed any sarcasm in my post. All I'm saying is in the future don't use FG% as an argument especially for a point guard who shoots three pointers. That's like arguing wins and losses for a pitcher to determine a better pitcher.

by far the worst thing i have ever heard. pitchers wins are based on the team scoring. rose shooting a jumper is his decision and based on his skill level. it doesnt matter who his players are.

If you want to be technical:

noah and thomas are 2 of the best screen setters in the nba.

DLeeicious
03-16-2011, 04:22 PM
by far the worst thing i have ever heard. pitchers wins are based on the team scoring. rose shooting a jumper is his decision and based on his skill level. it doesnt matter who his players are.

If you want to be technical:

noah and thomas are 2 of the best screen setters in the nba.

I'll spell it out more. FG% has CLEAR flaws in it and it CLEARLY does not tell the whole story as 3 pointers are worth 50% more points than 2 pointers just like win/loss records for pitchers have clear flaws. Using either as an argument to compare players is ignorant, which is why I compared the two.

Jewelz0376
03-16-2011, 04:22 PM
OK. Then, if we aren't looking at last year period, why is Rose the MVP? If the NBA just started this year, and this was the first year of its existence, Rose isn't the MVP. He's winning the MVP this year because of the Bulls turnaround, not because he's having an amazing season. Hell, he's having one of the worst seasons ever for an MVP winner. So you can't use that logic. If you are, you can't use it for this and not for Rose.

Yes, players have changed, coaches have changed, but the reason the point differential has gone from -1.6 to +6.7 is because of the change in defense.

So if you have a different tangible argument, feel free to counter it...but that rhetoric isn't persuading me.

He's the best player on the best team in the East (record wise)...He would still probably win it..Why are you so convinced he wouldn't win it?

D1JM
03-16-2011, 04:24 PM
OK. Then, if we aren't looking at last year period, why is Rose the MVP? If the NBA just started this year, and this was the first year of its existence, Rose isn't the MVP. He's winning the MVP this year because of the Bulls turnaround, not because he's having an amazing season. Hell, he's having one of the worst seasons ever for an MVP winner. So you can't use that logic. If you are, you can't use it for this and not for Rose.

Yes, players have changed, coaches have changed, but the reason the point differential has gone from -1.6 to +6.7 is because of the change in defense.

So if you have a different tangible argument, feel free to counter it...but that rhetoric isn't persuading me.

We added more defensive minded personnel to our team, so if we were 8th in the league last year, by adding brewer, asik, Kurt, and Watson of course we were bound to improve. I never said that our defense wasn't the reason for our success or that rose was the only one responsible for it. So I don't know what you are trying to point out.

Hawkeye15
03-16-2011, 04:25 PM
Finally a person that is not a bulls fan sees that we have more defensive minded personal than offensive. I believe for those obvious reasons we will have a less offensive efficiency, but you can't discount that the team is still adapting to each other. Our last 25% of games we have a differential of 8.88+ so...

well, the team's talent, individually, will struggle to ever be a top 8 offense. That is because they don't have very many offensive minded players, to now go with a defensive minded coach.

I did forget to add, Chicago's bench is one of the top in the NBA. That is another huge help.

Hawkeye15
03-16-2011, 04:27 PM
He's the best player on the best team in the East (record wise)...He would still probably win it..Why are you so convinced he wouldn't win it?

I think many of the knowledgeable fans here think he SHOULDN'T win it. Obviously this doesn't mean he won't win it.

poleandreel
03-16-2011, 04:27 PM
I'll spell it out more. FG% has CLEAR flaws in it and it CLEARLY does not tell the whole story as 3 pointers are worth 50% more points than 2 pointers just like win/loss records for pitchers have clear flaws. Using either as an argument to compare players is ignorant, which is why I compared the two.

Worst argument ever. Recent cy young was given to Hernandez who only had 12 wins. year before that? Lincecum with 15 wins. Before that? Lincecum with 16. There were many other pitchers who had way more wins.

The nba has proven that MVP's have good fg%. Becuase IN THE LAST 50 YEARS, ROSE HAS THE LOWEST FG% OF ANY MVP WINNER. (assuming he wins).

However, iverson, who had a lower fg% in 2001, average significantly more points.

WHAT DONT YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT ROSE BEING NOT WORTHY OF THE MVP?

its obvious

DROSE4MVP
03-16-2011, 04:28 PM
Also if Rose wins mvp this year, he will have the 2nd worst fg% of any player in the last 50 years. So yea, he really deserves all of this credit.

Its not even like he leads the league in scoring or averages the most assists. He is an inefficient player who has a really good team and coach.

Who cares? You act like you need to put 28 PPG to win the MVP award. The guy is a score-first point guard, in his third year in the league, and has a shooting guard who averages 4.0 PPG. Does Rose have Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh to help him out? No, he doesn't. He has Luol Deng and Carlos Boozer, who hasn't even played the whole season and is inconsistent lately. And don't even compare Dwight Howard and Derrick Rose's FG % as you can't do that with PG's and C's.

One of the guys above me said it best... you don't judge the best pitcher in baseball by his numbers. Felix Hernandez won the damn Cy Young award with a 13-12 record. Does that make him a bad pitcher? Just because Rose has a low FG%, that automatically makes him not an MVP candidate?

bovice163
03-16-2011, 04:28 PM
Guys, there's a thread for this. Why does every single Bulls thread turn into a 'Rose X' thread?

DLeeicious
03-16-2011, 04:32 PM
Worst argument ever. Recent cy young was given to Hernandez who only had 12 wins. year before that? Lincecum with 15 wins. Before that? Lincecum with 16. There were many other pitchers who had way more wins.

The nba has proven that MVP's have good fg%. Becuase IN THE LAST 50 YEARS, ROSE HAS THE LOWEST FG% OF ANY MVP WINNER. (assuming he wins).

However, iverson, who had a lower fg% in 2001, average significantly more points.

WHAT DONT YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT ROSE BEING NOT WORTHY OF THE MVP?

its obvious

lol I never once was arguing he should be MVP, in fact "MVP" wasn't in one of my posts. All I'm doing is telling you that you're ignorant because you are trying to use FG% as a stat to judge a player on (again just like someone trying to argue a pitcher based on win/loss record). Just stating someone's field goal percentage tells you next to nothing about the efficiency of that player, at the very least it doesn't tell you the whole story about that players shooting ability. Try learning about advanced stats, not all of them are great but they certainly tell you more about a player than FG%.

ChiDougie19
03-16-2011, 04:34 PM
all about who brung the defense...thibs

ManRam
03-16-2011, 04:36 PM
We added more defensive minded personnel to our team, so if we were 8th in the league last year, by adding brewer, asik, Kurt, and Watson of course we were bound to improve. I never said that our defense wasn't the reason for our success or that rose was the only one responsible for it. So I don't know what you are trying to point out.

I guess I'm confused at what you're saying. So now you're saying Thibs isn't the reason the defense is better, it's that Kurt, Asik and Watson have turned this thing around.

Kurt (played 37 games), Watson (not sure I'd say is a defensive stud) and Asik (12 minutes a game)???

No, the rason is Thibs. He was the reason behind Boston's defense. He's a defense-first coach. He's a genius. Sure, the personnel has to be there, I'm not saying it isn't...I'm just saying that the Bulls defense sucked last year, and now it's the best in the league. That's the main reason they're doing better, and I'm more inclined to give the credit to Thibs than I am to that trio.

poleandreel
03-16-2011, 04:39 PM
lol I never once was arguing he should be MVP, in fact "MVP" wasn't in one of my posts. All I'm doing is telling you that you're ignorant because you are trying to use FG% as a stat to judge a player on (again just like someone trying to argue a pitcher based on win/loss record). Just stating someone's field goal percentage tells you next to nothing about the efficiency of that player, at the very least it doesn't tell you the whole story about that players shooting ability. Try learning about advanced stats, not all of them are great but they certainly tell you more about a player than FG%.

There is no point of me posting on PSD anymore because every single Bulls fan is so indulged with their own team and player that they cannot see logic. Rose is inefficient. As the MVP voting of the past 50 years has shown, you should have higher than a 44 fg% to win it. And if you do shoot that badly, you should average a large amount of points (iverson in 2001).

you seem to think that I am saying you need 28 PPG to win MVP. I am not. I am saying that you should be leading or good in something in order to be MVP.

He is not averaging many points for someone who shoots 20 shots per game.

He has an extremely good team and has a bad Assist to turnover ratio.

He has a horrendous fg%

He is an average defender. (Most MVP's are very good defensively minus NASH)

poleandreel
03-16-2011, 04:41 PM
Who cares? You act like you need to put 28 PPG to win the MVP award. The guy is a score-first point guard, in his third year in the league, and has a shooting guard who averages 4.0 PPG. Does Rose have Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh to help him out? No, he doesn't. He has Luol Deng and Carlos Boozer, who hasn't even played the whole season and is inconsistent lately. And don't even compare Dwight Howard and Derrick Rose's FG % as you can't do that with PG's and C's.

One of the guys above me said it best... you don't judge the best pitcher in baseball by his numbers. Felix Hernandez won the damn Cy Young award with a 13-12 record. Does that make him a bad pitcher? Just because Rose has a low FG%, that automatically makes him not an MVP candidate?

you are right, lebron has wade and bosh last year when he had a 49 fg%

wade had lebron and bosh when he shot a higher percentage.

Boozer and deng are better than any players lebron ever had on the cavaliers.

Lebron also shot more 3 pointers last year than rose has this year and still had a better fg%

DLeeicious
03-16-2011, 04:43 PM
There is no point of me posting on PSD anymore because every single Bulls fan is so indulged with their own team and player that they cannot see logic. Rose is inefficient. As the MVP voting of the past 50 years has shown, you should have higher than a 44 fg% to win it. And if you do shoot that badly, you should average a large amount of points (iverson in 2001).

you seem to think that I am saying you need 28 PPG to win MVP. I am not. I am saying that you should be leading or good in something in order to be MVP.

He is not averaging many points for someone who shoots 20 shots per game.

He has an extremely good team and has a bad Assist to turnover ratio.

He has a horrendous fg%

He is an average defender. (Most MVP's are very good defensively minus NASH)

Oh my dear god would you for the love of god actually read my posts? I have not once said Rose is the MVP, I am just telling you (which you will not acknowledge) that FG% is a bad stat to use in your argument. LOL please tell me you aren't this dense. Is reading comprehension really this bad for teenagers today?

poleandreel
03-16-2011, 04:48 PM
Oh my dear god would you for the love of god actually read my posts? I have not once said Rose is the MVP, I am just telling you (which you will not acknowledge) that FG% is a bad stat to use in your argument. LOL please tell me you aren't this dense. Is reading comprehension really this bad for teenagers today?

I am reading your posts and you keep saying that FG% has no relevance. then explain to me why rose would have a top 5 worst fg% in NBA MVP voting history?

Apparently it matters and is a measure of how good a player is.

D1JM
03-16-2011, 04:49 PM
I guess I'm confused at what you're saying. So now you're saying Thibs isn't the reason the defense is better, it's that Kurt, Asik and Watson have turned this thing around.

Kurt (played 37 games), Watson (not sure I'd say is a defensive stud) and Asik (12 minutes a game)???

No, the rason is Thibs. He was the reason behind Boston's defense. He's a defense-first coach. He's a genius. Sure, the personnel has to be there, I'm not saying it isn't...I'm just saying that the Bulls defense sucked last year, and now it's the best in the league. That's the main reason they're doing better, and I'm more inclined to give the credit to Thibs than I am to that trio.

thibs is the main reason. but the player personnel has to be there too and lets not forget about ron adams

D1JM
03-16-2011, 04:51 PM
is this thread to discuss why rose shouldnt be mvp?

DLeeicious
03-16-2011, 04:52 PM
I am reading your posts and you keep saying that FG% has no relevance. then explain to me why rose would have a top 5 worst fg% in NBA MVP voting history?

Apparently it matters and is a measure of how good a player is.

He's also the youngest who would ever win it, is that a measure of how good a player is?

FG% has little relevance because it weighs a made three point shot the same as a made two point shot. Rose has taken a lot more three pointers this season which obviously makes his FG% sink yet his overall efficiency is higher than the past 2 seasons where he shot 48% and 49% from the field. Yes his field goal percentage dropped 5 percent yet his T% went up by a percent. That's why field goal percentage is a useless ignorant argument to make on behalf of a player.

Southsideheat
03-16-2011, 04:54 PM
Can't really say for sure now. Under Skiles, the Bulls had comparable defense, but they couldn't advance in the playoffs because of a go-to guy. They have that guy now. It seems to me you need defense AND a go-to guy to go all the way. So maybe for the regular season record we can give it to Thibs, and if the Bulls advance deep in the playoffs, we can give it to Rose.

MJ-BULLS
03-16-2011, 04:55 PM
you cant select one between both of them. they are both the mvp's of our team. with out thibs our defense wouldn't be as good as it is now. and rose..you guys know the year he is having. nothing else needs to be said.

DROSE4MVP
03-16-2011, 04:57 PM
That's a good point, D. Rose is taking a lot more jumpers which will force his FG% to go down more. It's simple. Hell, I wish he would stop taking so much jumpers and just drive to the paint which is his best trait. But apparently he loves shooting jumpers.

Albrecht Duerer
03-16-2011, 04:58 PM
Can't really say for sure now. Under Skiles, the Bulls had comparable defense, but they couldn't advance in the playoffs because of a go-to guy. They have that guy now. It seems to me you need defense AND a go-to guy to go all the way. So maybe for the regular season record we can give it to Thibs, and if the Bulls advance deep in the playoffs, we can give it to Rose.

I honestly dont think the defense under Skiles was this good.

FuriousJatt
03-16-2011, 05:04 PM
thibs... coaches get blame so this coach should get the praise.

Southsideheat
03-16-2011, 05:09 PM
I honestly dont think the defense under Skiles was this good.

i said it was comparable. And by the numbers, it was.

Rose-For-Prez
03-16-2011, 05:11 PM
I think it was a good combination of both Rose is a leader of the Bulls that every player on the team respects. Rose carries the team in late game situations the shootouts with Wade at the end of the Heat game was amazing. He is the only player in the Nba in both assists and Scoring.

As for Thibs he is a great defensive coach that has pushed us into one of the top teams in the league defensively. He is a coach that demands respect and is actually a good offensive coach and draws up good plays also.

And I think Thibs got lucky in his first head coaching job he is coaching a player that is humble and does not think he is above his coach.

So I think its a toss up I would hate to see the bulls team without either person.

And to the other Bulls Fans stop arguing with this Pole and reel guy he obviously dont know much about basketball and nothing about the bulls and DR1. just let him live in his delusional fantasy world to where Rose is not a good player.

JordansBulls
03-16-2011, 05:12 PM
I guess I'm confused at what you're saying. So now you're saying Thibs isn't the reason the defense is better, it's that Kurt, Asik and Watson have turned this thing around.

Kurt (played 37 games), Watson (not sure I'd say is a defensive stud) and Asik (12 minutes a game)???

No, the rason is Thibs. He was the reason behind Boston's defense. He's a defense-first coach. He's a genius. Sure, the personnel has to be there, I'm not saying it isn't...I'm just saying that the Bulls defense sucked last year, and now it's the best in the league. That's the main reason they're doing better, and I'm more inclined to give the credit to Thibs than I am to that trio.

Bulls went from 5th to 1st in defense when Noah left and Kurt started. So I'd say he had a greater impact on our defense than Noah did.

JNA17
03-16-2011, 05:12 PM
both deserve a lot of credit. Thibs with his defense, Rose with his major improvement, and the Front offense for actually making moves by getting guys like Boozer.

Southsideheat
03-16-2011, 05:13 PM
Regarding Rose's FG%, it's his 3rd year in the league, once he develops a post game, which there is no evidence to say that he cannot, his FG% will go up. Right now, he has Lebron's game of being a decent shooter and a guy that drives the lane, the difference is that he's 6-3 and about 100 lbs less.

nitric
03-16-2011, 05:22 PM
Rose wouldn't lead this team without Thibs to #1 and Thibs wouldn't coach this team to be #1 without Rose.

Albrecht Duerer
03-16-2011, 05:53 PM
Bulls went from 5th to 1st in defense when Noah left and Kurt started. So I'd say he had a greater impact on our defense than Noah did.

The team as a whole had a learning curve with the new coach and system. Noah was injured around the time when the team, as a whole, started getting on board.