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View Full Version : Is Phil Jackson overrated ?



RedRicanoBx
03-16-2011, 09:16 AM
I think he is, the man had the best player ever in Michael Jordan and now has probably the best player in Kobe... I just think he's overrated like he's some coaching god, but in all reality every championship he had his teams were stacked, what do you guys think ? Who is an actual better "coach" ?

TopsyTurvy
03-16-2011, 09:19 AM
Because clearly it doesn't take any skill, planning, or management to get players living up to their potential.

It's always interesting to hear who is a 'better' coach if you consider Phil Jackson overrated.

effen5
03-16-2011, 09:28 AM
:rolleyes: Dantoni and Spo is doing a hell of a job right?

Anybody who calls Phil Jackson, a guy who has more rings then fingers overrated is completely ********.

Oh btw, how many titles does MJ and Kobe have together without Phil as their coach?

CubsFanBudMan#1
03-16-2011, 09:32 AM
Anyone with as many championships as Phil Jackson is not over rated. Just look at the mess that is the Miami Heat or the fact that Boston has only won one ring with their roster that was stacked. Talent alone doesn't get you there, it takes a great leader, that's what Phil Jackson is. He keeps guys focused and motivated in an era were more than half the players are in it for the pay check.

PippensBulls
03-16-2011, 09:38 AM
I think he is, the man had the best player ever in Michael Jordan and now has probably the best player in Kobe... I just think he's overrated like he's some coaching god, but in all reality every championship he had his teams were stacked, what do you guys think ? Who is an actual better "coach" ?

Let me see you trying to handle the biggest egos in the world of sports.

magichatnumber9
03-16-2011, 09:41 AM
I don't think he is completely overrated but he does have a big mouth.

YankeeClipper5
03-16-2011, 09:42 AM
No way is PJ overrated. He's 1146 - 480 that's a .705 W-L% 11 x NBA Champ. MJ and Kobe had 0 rings combined before Phil coached them.

PhillyFaninLA
03-16-2011, 09:48 AM
There is a reason Pat Riley teams win, Larry Brown teams rebuild and go from the trash can to the playoffs, Doug Collins teams get 10+ games better in his first year with a team.

What great coaches do is more than make game day decisions and organize practices. They manage personalities and great team work, they create a desire to win not just for themselves but to sacrifice for there teammates and fans. A great coach manages personalities and makes sure players check egos at the door (to varying degrees).

So Phil Jackson is not overrated, he's just fortunate to have had Jordan, Pippen, Kobe, Shaq, and to a much lesser degree Pau.

redsox0717
03-16-2011, 09:53 AM
No way is PJ overrated. He's 1146 - 480 that's a .705 W-L% 11 x NBA Champ. MJ and Kobe had 0 rings combined before Phil coached them.

It goes both ways. What was Phil's coaching record before he coached MJ or Kobe?

TopsyTurvy
03-16-2011, 09:55 AM
By a similar argument, one could say Red Auerbach is overrated - you know, because he only won 11 straight division titles, 10 straight finals appearances, etc. Oh wait, he had Bill Russell, Dave Cowens, and some schmuck named Larry Bird to build around...

Absurd.

I'm still waiting to hear who is better if not equal to Phil.

kidfury
03-16-2011, 09:55 AM
Phenomenal talent that comes with Jordan or Kobe is very very rare. Someone who has that sort of talent on their team with a good supporting cast, who can constructively say guys calm down and let's try a little harder is imo MUCH easier to find. Phil, lucked into his situation with Chicago and because of his success with CHI was able to patiently wait for and given the opportunity for Kobe/LA to fall in his lap.

'zen master', umm let them play through their mistakes and not call a time out to strategize? easy to do when you have the 'best' player in the league. Yes, Phil is over rated.

TopsyTurvy
03-16-2011, 10:16 AM
Phenomenal talent that comes with Jordan or Kobe is very very rare.

Yes, it's rare enough that the only championship team to NOT have a Hall of Fame bound player in the past however many years is the 2004 Pistons... As far as I can look back (and I gave up when I got into the late 60's) there has always been at least one hall of fame player on a championship team.

Albrecht Duerer
03-16-2011, 10:34 AM
:rolleyes: Dantoni and Spo is doing a hell of a job right?

Anybody who calls Phil Jackson, a guy who has more rings then fingers overrated is completely ********.

Oh btw, how many titles does MJ and Kobe have together without Phil as their coach?

To be truthful, the Bulls would have probably won with Collins as coach. It may not have been as many. But the Bulls timeline for winning had a lot to do with Pippen and Grant maturing.

asandhu23
03-16-2011, 10:35 AM
so... Don Nelson is the best coach ever? :D

Albrecht Duerer
03-16-2011, 10:39 AM
But Phil is underrated if anything.

There's a lot to be learned from Phil. A lot of coaches are overreactive in comparison to Phil because situations set off alarm sirens. But Phil isn't as apt to panic. Phil manages people wheras a lot of coaches manage situations.

retep2281
03-16-2011, 10:46 AM
Overrated? Ehh debateable but when you coniseder his teams did he really have to do that much coaching. I remember watching the bulls win 1 of their 3 first championships and i remember my mom saying, "at this point who knows more the player or the coach". She was talking about Jordan. Also wasnt Jackson in the D-League before Krause brought him up where he was about to be stuck in coaching purgatory, if he was that good or showed that much promise why wouldnt any other teams have considered him.

Overrated maybe not because his record is amazing, however I believe that he was blessed with phenomenal tallent, that even a coach like me could win with.

Just something to think about.

twoearl
03-16-2011, 10:53 AM
LOL. How many Coaches have won 10+ Championships?

Albrecht Duerer
03-16-2011, 11:03 AM
Overrated? Ehh debateable but when you coniseder his teams did he really have to do that much coaching. I remember watching the bulls win 1 of their 3 first championships and i remember my mom saying, "at this point who knows more the player or the coach". She was talking about Jordan. Also wasnt Jackson in the D-League before Krause brought him up where he was about to be stuck in coaching purgatory, if he was that good or showed that much promise why wouldnt any other teams have considered him.

Overrated maybe not because his record is amazing, however I believe that he was blessed with phenomenal tallent, that even a coach like me could win with.

Just something to think about.

There's not much to think about there. Most of this sentiment has been said before.

And yes, Phil was a coach in Albany, where he won a championship. I'm pretty sure he didn't have Jordan, or Shaq, or Kobe.

PrettyBoyJ
03-16-2011, 11:20 AM
Phil Jackson is far from overrated.. If you look at all the great coaches they all had great players.. Red Aurbach had Russel, John H., Bob Cousy... Pat Riley Had Magic, Kareem, James Worthy.. Greg Popvich had Tim Duncan David Robinson, Manu, Tony PArker... Phil Jackson has won Championships with different clubs with different styles of players..

And just cuz you have a stacked team doesnt mean you will win.. Rockets team had Hakeem, Barkley, and Drexler and lost

RaiderLakersA's
03-16-2011, 11:28 AM
To be truthful, the Bulls would have probably won with Collins as coach. It may not have been as many. But the Bulls timeline for winning had a lot to do with Pippen and Grant maturing.

Some would counter that Pippen and Grant's maturation was more a reflection of the system that was in place than natural progression. No Phil, no triangle. No triangle, no ring. I'm of the opinion that the Bulls don't get one ring with Collins at the helm. I don't care how great Jordan was.

Tarheels23
03-16-2011, 11:43 AM
Is Phil overrated? Maybe a little bit. I mean he did have the greatest player to ever live and also the Kobe/Prime Shaq tandom. But regardless...11 rings is no accident. The guy clearly knows his bball (history and IQ), trusts his system, and knows how to manage egos and talent.

Would Phil have been able to win coaching the Spurs? How about those Pistons teams that went to 7 straight ECF? What if Phil replaced Sloan... would the Jazz have been champions in the 90s? Could he have taken the Rockets back to back in 94-95?

All valid questions, but the answers will never be known.

REGular
03-16-2011, 11:47 AM
I think he's a great coach, for whatever that's worth.
I do think he tends to be over-rated though.

mikealike305
03-16-2011, 11:47 AM
Great players make good coaches look great. Is he a bad coach? No. But overrated? Yes. Bulls still win atleast 4 if phil wasnt coach

Fnom11
03-16-2011, 11:50 AM
I think he's highly overrated now, he's really not that good nowadays. In the Bulls era he was a great coach, even in 2000-2002 he was good. Now he's just an apathetic trash talker who can't even back his words up.

REGular
03-16-2011, 11:54 AM
I think he's highly overrated now, he's really not that good nowadays. In the Bulls era he was a great coach, even in 2000-2002 he was good. Now he's just an apathetic trash talker who can't even back his words up.

Has he forgotten how to "coach"?

What's he doing differently now than he did before?

sep11ie
03-16-2011, 11:59 AM
I see where you are coming from in a way. He's never active on the bench really, looks half asleep sometimes, doesn't like the word "timeout", but he wins. There are a few teams this year full of star power that aren't winning like they are supposed to be.

ManRam
03-16-2011, 11:59 AM
It's hard to tell. I won't ever call him overrated, but he's certainly had the benefit of some amazing teams :shrugs:

If he does come back after this year, I wish he'd do it with an average team. He won't, but I just wish we could see what he'd do with one.

J-Relo
03-16-2011, 12:00 PM
No. He is not.

sep11ie
03-16-2011, 12:01 PM
Winners get winning outta their players, and his entire career he's been winning like Charlie Sheen.

ghettosean
03-16-2011, 12:04 PM
:rolleyes: Dantoni and Spo is doing a hell of a job right?

Anybody who calls Phil Jackson, a guy who has more rings then fingers overrated is completely ********.

Oh btw, how many titles does MJ and Kobe have together without Phil as their coach?
Damn :laugh2:

Can't really argue with you there!

REGular
03-16-2011, 12:08 PM
Has he forgotten how to "coach"?

What's he doing differently now than he did before?

Perhaps in different words, is Phil Jackson becoming a worse coach or is Kobe Bryant getting older?

REGular
03-16-2011, 12:11 PM
And just cuz you have a stacked team doesnt mean you will win.. Rockets team had Hakeem, Barkley, and Drexler and lost

With the same head coach they won the previous 2 championships with . . . did he forget how to coach them to victory?

RaiderLakersA's
03-16-2011, 12:15 PM
I see where you are coming from in a way. He's never active on the bench really, looks half asleep sometimes, doesn't like the word "timeout", but he wins. There are a few teams this year full of star power that aren't winning like they are supposed to be.

The real coaching doesn't get done on the sidelines during the game. The real coaching work gets done behind the scenes in practice, in meeting rooms, in places where the public at large usually doesn't have access.

I've said this before and I'll repeat here: Name me one player who played for Coach Jackson that will say that he is overrated, and I might believe it. But when the greatest players to ever play the game -- from Jordan (the GOAT), to Magic (GOAT, but for Jordan), to Shaq (the Most Dominant Ever), to Kobe (possibly the poor man's GOAT, when it's all said and done) -- are all singing Phil's praises, everyone else should really be quiet. Whether you believe PJ is overrated is not a relevant matter of contention at this point.

PS: And yes, I know that Magic never played for Phil. However, as part owner of the Lakers at that time, Magic had unprecedented access to the team and observed PJ's craftsmanship up close. His opinion of PJ being one of the best coaches is highly germane to the discussion at hand.

oak2455
03-16-2011, 12:23 PM
How about this and remember this Phil will be the Knicks coach next year:D BTW not overrated at all:facepalm:

Grifftiggs
03-16-2011, 12:26 PM
In a sense F Yea, Id love to see him take a team without the BEST player in the league and have the team win. He is smart because he has always gone to a team with the Stud. He can control his team but put him on a team that is a 5-8 seed and I doubt they do anything, plus he has a HUGE mouth

ghettosean
03-16-2011, 12:28 PM
I can't call him overrated it's hard to say if he is or not but just because your coaching the best talent in the world doesn't make your team great --> Miami heat and New York. It's a combination of having a great team and great coaching that wins championship I'd lean more towards talent but unless it's utilzed properly your not winning much.

I'll say he's a great coach but best of all time it's hard to say.

ghettosean
03-16-2011, 12:31 PM
In a sense F Yea, Id love to see him take a team without the BEST player in the league and have the team win. He is smart because he has always gone to a team with the Stud. He can control his team but put him on a team that is a 5-8 seed and I doubt they do anything, plus he has a HUGE mouth
I think Larry Brown is a fantastic coach and look what happened to him on the Bobcats if you don't have great players you don't win championships but you need a combo of the 2.

Ripper Gein
03-16-2011, 12:35 PM
No Red Auerbach is Overated, guy had the Absolute best NBA players on his team he was a good evaluator of talent NOT coach, notice i said NBA players cuz the NBA wasnt allowing ALL the best players in because of racism so the celtics championships in the 50's should not be counted.

RedRicanoBx
03-16-2011, 12:38 PM
It goes both ways. What was Phil's coaching record before he coached MJ or Kobe?

Exactly !! How many rings he got with out them ?

GREATNESS ONE
03-16-2011, 12:42 PM
wow to this thread lmao

RedRicanoBx
03-16-2011, 12:46 PM
:rolleyes: Dantoni and Spo is doing a hell of a job right?

Anybody who calls Phil Jackson, a guy who has more rings then fingers overrated is completely ********.

Oh btw, how many titles does MJ and Kobe have together without Phil as their coach?

No one was even talking about them u dick stop trying to bash -_-

How many rings he got with out Mj or kobe ??

Ripper Gein
03-16-2011, 12:47 PM
No one was even talking about them u dick stop trying to bash -_-

How many rings he got with out Mj or kobe ??

Stop trying to bash!?! a knick fan started THIS thread!!

Lim
03-16-2011, 12:49 PM
the league has only been around for like 60 years, as of right now he is the best coach ever. but anyone who says he inst at least a little overrated is crazy delusional. give any coach the talent he has had and they could sleep on the bench throughout the playoffs and still win a couple titles.

Iron24th
03-16-2011, 12:54 PM
:rolleyes: Dantoni and Spo is doing a hell of a job right?

Anybody who calls Phil Jackson, a guy who has more rings then fingers overrated is completely ********.

Oh btw, how many titles does MJ and Kobe have together without Phil as their coach?

This.

Only Shaq has one without Phil,so you take MJ(6 rings),Pippen(6 rings),Kobe(5 rings),Shaq(4 rings),4 players,21 rings,and only one without Phil,and some think he's overrated???

AddiX
03-16-2011, 12:54 PM
The best coach on the history of the NBA is over rated.

You guys got to much hater in you.

Atticus Finch
03-16-2011, 12:55 PM
In a sense F Yea, Id love to see him take a team without the BEST player in the league and have the team win. He is smart because he has always gone to a team with the Stud. He can control his team but put him on a team that is a 5-8 seed and I doubt they do anything, plus he has a HUGE mouth

Hating at it's absolute finest. The lowest seeded team to ever win a championship was the Houston Rockets in 94-95, they were the 6th seed. So basically that means no 7th or 8th seeded team has ever won a title. Houston was the first team to do it and nobody has done it since then, so that means in the entire history of the NBA only 1 team has won the title while being seeded 6-8. Now I might be wrong about this but I'm also pretty sure no team seeded 5th has ever won a title. If that's the case, then according to your rules for greatest coaches, it leaves us with only one option, Mr. Rudy Tomjanovich himself.

Albrecht Duerer
03-16-2011, 01:01 PM
No one was even talking about them u dick stop trying to bash -_-

How many rings he got with out Mj or kobe ??

He did pretty well without Jordan during Jordan's first year of retirement. He was one bad call away from advancing to the ECF. Part of the credit for that goes to Pippen and the remaining other players too.

And speaking of that Pippen and that year. Just look at how he handled the last shot where he let Kukoc shoot it instead of Pippen. Notice how Phil asserted himself as the head coach and didnt let Pippen walk all over him as the star of the team. A lot of coaches would have given into Pippen in that moment. But Phil didn't and Kukoc hit the shot. This moment is also interesting in that it shows that Phil is able to scrutinize who is suited to take the last shot. He wouldnt have hesitated to let Jordan take the last shot but Phil understood that Pippen doesnt have the same make up (aside from the more obvious differences) as Jordan and so he didnt defer to Pippen the same way he would have deferred to Jordan.

To me, letting Kukoc take the last shot was one of the defining moments for Phil as a head coach and it had nothing to do with winning a championship. It didnt even take place in a chamoionship season. And then, again, Phil did actually win a championship in the CBA with Albany before he went to the Bulls.

Phil has benefited from Jordan's endorsement, which gave Phil's voice a lot of weight in subsequent years. It gave him automatic respect from players.

Chacarron
03-16-2011, 01:05 PM
He is not overrated. Just because you have the best player in the NBA in your team does not guarantee a championship.

I do have to give credit to Tex Winter for his amazing offense which has produced 11 championships.

Albrecht Duerer
03-16-2011, 01:08 PM
The best coach on the history of the NBA is over rated.

You guys got to much hater in you.

You could also make a case for Auerbach but, nevertheless, Phil is in elite company.

AIRMAR72
03-16-2011, 03:23 PM
To be truthful, the Bulls would have probably won with Collins as coach. It may not have been as many. But the Bulls timeline for winning had a lot to do with Pippen and Grant maturing.
you KNOW nba basketball i agree i would like to see coach phil take da raptors or da grizzley a no chance team like larry brown would and turn them into winners

Lake_Show2416
03-16-2011, 03:54 PM
11 rings... 1/6 of all the titles

DJakk
03-16-2011, 03:56 PM
Yes he is because of the talent that he has been given as a coach, but he still happens to be a great coach.

iggypop123
03-16-2011, 04:09 PM
more titles than red auerbach and did it with less hall of famers. and he trolls the entire league.

sjbirds
03-16-2011, 04:11 PM
to all the people saying he had this player and that player.... name one coach who has won without a superstar?

ko8e24
03-16-2011, 04:13 PM
After this 4th 3-peat for his career, Phil Jackson will have won 12 of the last 21 NBA Championships as a Head Coach, participating in 19 of those 21 NBA Seasons (did not coach in 98-99 lockout season or 04-05 self-proclaimed 'Sabattical' season).

ko8e24
03-16-2011, 04:15 PM
And people tend to forget, before Phil took over from assistant to head coach for Doug Collins with the Bulls, he was a coach of the Albany Patroons in the ABA in the early 80's, leading them to an ABA Championship.

And he won 2 championships in 3 finals appearances in a span of 4 yrs (1970 and 1973 titles, lost in 1972) as a player with the New York Knicks.



So before coaching Bulls and Lakers to all these titles, PJax won 2 titles as a player (learning from the great Red Holzman), and won as a head coach in the ABA.

shizzle09
03-16-2011, 04:18 PM
Phil is a great coach but i'd take Riley all day

JNA17
03-16-2011, 04:21 PM
neither MJ or Kobe won rings with phil and then one year he comes in and helps them win a chip. Phil knows how to utilize and execute talent along with their massive egos. Sorry but even having guys like those would be near impossible to have 11 rings with.

But of course people will just look at how MJ, Kobe, Pippen, etc. Just somehow became talented and worked together on their own and you don't need much coaching to win a ring right? Guess if Spo does not win a ring with Lebron, Wade and Bosh there won't be any excuses right?

JNA17
03-16-2011, 04:24 PM
You could also make a case for Auerbach but, nevertheless, Phil is in elite company.

you could, but then again we would just go back to how much talent the celtics had in the 60s and how there were literally under 10 teams in that league. But it was still a great accomplishment never the less.

ko8e24
03-16-2011, 04:27 PM
Phil is a great coach but i'd take Riley all day

Why???

Yes Riles led showtime Lakers to 4 titles (something that will always go down in Lakers galore), but Paul Westhead was the guy to win that first title in the showtime era in 1980. And Riley was known to tire his Lakers players out in practice. He was a practice Nazi.

And Mike Dunleavy hell led the Lakers to the 91 finals against the Bulls when Riles left for the Big Apple. Granted that Riles himself led the Knicks to 1994 finals against Rockets.


But Riles had to basically kick out Stan Van Gundy to take that 06 title, and I wouldn't be surprised if he did the same to Spo.



Oh and btw, when Riles had two terrific players in Zo and Tim Hardaway, he wasn't able to accomplish much in the late 90s against Phil's Bulls and early 2000's against Phil's Lakers....just sayin...

GREATNESS ONE
03-16-2011, 04:34 PM
Boom ! and Just like that Ko8e24, ends the debate.

GREATNESS ONE
03-16-2011, 04:34 PM
He is not overrated. Just because you have the best player in the NBA in your team does not guarantee a championship.

I do have to give credit to Tex Winter for his amazing offense which has produced 11 championships.

Tex deserves a ton of credit !:clap:

ko8e24
03-16-2011, 04:36 PM
Tex deserves a ton of credit !:clap:

He better make the Hall of Fame this yr, or else, the HOF is a disgrace.

REGular
03-16-2011, 04:39 PM
Oh and btw, when Riles had two terrific players in Zo and Tim Hardaway, he wasn't able to accomplish much in the late 90s against Phil's Bulls and early 2000's against Phil's Lakers....just sayin...

Correction: When Riles had 2 terrific players in Zo & Tim Hardaway, he wasn't able to accomplish much in the late 90s against Jordan's Bulls and early 2000's against Shaq's Lakers.

I'll ask it this way: If Phil Jackson was coaching the Heat at the time, and Pat Riley was coaching the Bulls. Which coach would you expect to have the rings?

Chacarron
03-16-2011, 04:39 PM
Tex will make it into the HOF.

Albrecht Duerer
03-16-2011, 04:44 PM
Why???

Yes Riles led showtime Lakers to 4 titles (something that will always go down in Lakers galore), but Paul Westhead was the guy to win that first title in the showtime era in 1980. And Riley was known to tire his Lakers players out in practice. He was a practice Nazi.

And Mike Dunleavy hell led the Lakers to the 91 finals against the Bulls when Riles left for the Big Apple. Granted that Riles himself led the Knicks to 1994 finals against Rockets.


But Riles had to basically kick out Stan Van Gundy to take that 06 title, and I wouldn't be surprised if he did the same to Spo.



Oh and btw, when Riles had two terrific players in Zo and Tim Hardaway, he wasn't able to accomplish much in the late 90s against Phil's Bulls and early 2000's against Phil's Lakers....just sayin...

Yeah, the thing thats kind of crazy about this is that Jackson won 5 titles with the Lakers (one more than Riley) as kind of an after thought. To most people, Phil is probably most strongly associated with coaching the Bulls during the 90s.

Purple&Gold24
03-16-2011, 04:46 PM
:rolleyes: Dantoni and Spo is doing a hell of a job right?

Anybody who calls Phil Jackson, a guy who has more rings then fingers overrated is completely ********.

Oh btw, how many titles does MJ and Kobe have together without Phil as their coach?

:clap: Someone with a brain. I dont see any other coach other than MAYBE Greg Popavich doing the same.

Albrecht Duerer
03-16-2011, 04:50 PM
Correction: When Riles had 2 terrific players in Zo & Tim Hardaway, he wasn't able to accomplish much in the late 90s against Jordan's Bulls and early 2000's against Shaq's Lakers.

I'll ask it this way: If Phil Jackson was coaching the Heat at the time, and Pat Riley was coaching the Bulls. Which coach would you expect to have the rings?

Thats kind of a bogus question. If Riley was a practice nazi, then there would have been too much of the same. Jordan was the a$$kicker on that team. He demanded guys bring it every day in practice. Practice was already at maximum intensity without Riley piling on. Riley could have created problems by piling on. Phil managed people. He managed personalities. As a compliment to Jordan, who was more the iron fist, Phil ruled with a velvet glove. Phil complimented the makeup of the team.

Would the Bulls have still won? Probably. Would the Bulls been as good? Possibly not.

killbumdeluxe13
03-16-2011, 04:51 PM
Not overrated, just really lucky, as he has stated, to have coached such great players. Anyone questioning Phils talents as coach need to read up on how many titles MJ Scottie Kobe and Shaq won before Phil was their coach. Then look at how many they won with Phil as coach. Its pretty one sided, something like 0 compared 11. Not many people would be able to deal with the egos hes had to deal with either.

Albrecht Duerer
03-16-2011, 04:55 PM
Not overrated, just really lucky, as he has stated, to have coached such great players. Anyone questioning Phils talents as coach need to read up on how many titles MJ Scottie Kobe and Shaq won before Phil was their coach. Then look at how many they won with Phil as coach. Its pretty one sided, something like 0 compared 11. Not many people would be able to deal with the egos hes had to deal with either.

Once again, the Bulls were going to win, whether with Phil or Doug Collins. Their winning in 91 had a lot to do with Pippens and Grants development as young players over the preceding couple of years.

championships
03-16-2011, 04:55 PM
I don't see how a man with the phenomenal stats and records, he has, can be called overrated. Shaq didn't win crap in L.A. The very first year Phil shows up instant 3 peat. Who is to say Kobe would be the player he is today without Phil as his coach most of his career. Set the stars Aside for a minute. How about players like Rodman and Artest. He brought these trouble makers in and made them champions.

nrwskinny
03-16-2011, 05:00 PM
He has 11 rings..that has to count for something. But hey, phil ONLY coaches when its in his best intrest..he NEVER has been part of building a franchise (Gregg Popovich) and STAYED with them....He will coach Miami next year should the Lakers not win it all this year. Hell of a ego manager tho!

REGular
03-16-2011, 05:01 PM
need to read up on how many titles MJ Scottie Kobe and Shaq won before Phil was their coach. Then look at how many they won with Phil as coach. Its pretty one sided, something like 0 compared 11.

Look at how many Phil won without MJ, Kobe, or Shaq. It's pretty one sided, something like 0 compared to 11.


Who is to say Kobe would be the player he is today without Phil as his coach most of his career.

Who is to say he wouldn't be?

JNA17
03-16-2011, 05:04 PM
He has 11 rings..that has to count for something. But hey, phil ONLY coaches when its in his best intrest..he NEVER has been part of building a franchise (Gregg Popovich) and STAYED with them....He will coach Miami next year should the Lakers not win it all this year. Hell of a ego manager tho!

2006 and 2007 with a lineup of Smush Parker, Kobe Bryant, Luke Walton, Brian Cook (Odom keep getting injured), and Kwame Brown. Guess who was the coach of that team? :facepalm:

ChicagoJ
03-16-2011, 05:07 PM
There is something to be said about phil jackson inheriting championship caliber teams. I think he probably is a great coach, but it makes you wonder how other coaches with the same teams would have done.

Although, to his credit the bulls didn't start winning titles until he became head coach. You also have to look at coaching the greatest team ever with a guy like rodman being a critical member and despite some instances of rodman getting suspended, the team fired on all cylinders with him on the floor. I don't think every coach could have managed that.

JNA17
03-16-2011, 05:08 PM
Look at how many Phil won without MJ, Kobe, or Shaq. It's pretty one sided, something like 0 compared to 11.



Who is to say he wouldn't be?

That's like saying look at how many Greg P won without Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, David Robinson, or Pat Riley without Magic Johnson, Kareem, James Worthy, D-Wade, Shaq, etc. Your point is meaningless. That and the fact that Phil won a championship as a coach in the ABA and two as a player.

Who says he would be?

REGular
03-16-2011, 05:18 PM
2006 and 2007 with a lineup of Smush Parker, Kobe Bryant, Luke Walton, Brian Cook (Odom keep getting injured), and Kwame Brown. Guess who was the coach of that team? :facepalm:

And he was eliminated twice in the 1st round of the playoffs.

Why does he get the credit when guys like MJ, Rodman, Pippen, Shaw, Kobe, Gasol win him rings, but not get the blame when guys like Odom & Smush don't win him rings?


That's like saying look at how many Greg P won without Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, David Robinson, or Pat Riley without Magic Johnson, Kareem, James Worthy, D-Wade, Shaq, etc. Your point is meaningless.

It's only as meaningless as "how many rings did MJ & Kobe & Shaq win without Phil?"

ko8e24
03-16-2011, 05:21 PM
He has 11 rings..that has to count for something. But hey, phil ONLY coaches when its in his best intrest..he NEVER has been part of building a franchise (Gregg Popovich) and STAYED with them....He will coach Miami next year should the Lakers not win it all this year. Hell of a ego manager tho!

He came to a Lakers rebuilding program that just went 34-48 in the 04-05 season and didn't make the playoffs. He had the hand in telling Lakers' management in that they needed a big guy (Bynum via 05 draft) because a hobbled and retired Divac and injury prone Chris Mihm weren't gonna get the job done. He had to sit thru that Butler to Wizards for Kwame trade and just went with it for 2 1/2 seasons with Kwame as our main big. He had to coach freakin Smush Parker as our starting point guard for 2 straight seasons and piss poor Brian Cook jacking up 3's off the bench. He had his rough yrs of going 45-37 and 42-40 in 06 and 07 regular seasons respectively, and getting knocked out of the 1st rd in back-to-back seasons. First time in his career where he didn't get a team past the 1st rd. For a highly reputable winning coach, who before that had led 2 dynasties to 9 titles in 10 finals appearances, and to give up that pride and ego said a lot about him, and the balls and guts he had to come back after writing that book that bashed Kobe.

Don't give me that BS!

REGular
03-16-2011, 05:27 PM
That and the fact that Phil won a championship as a coach in the ABA and two as a player.

2 as a player - he didn't even play a minute 1 of those seasons due to spinal surgery (as far as I can tell online), and the other season he was a bench player. You really think he should get bonus credit for coaching for those rings?

Toadman
03-16-2011, 05:35 PM
Before PJ zero rings for MJ, Shaq, & Kobe. Also for all saying he had all these great players. The 1998-99 roster apart from Shaq & Kobe was guys like Eddie Jones, Nick VanExel, Robert Horry, Rick Fox, Derek Fisher,Elden Cambell, Jon Barry. The Lakers were a very good team. They just couldn't get over the top.

marcanthony01
03-16-2011, 05:37 PM
Its funny I sit here and read a lot of post that say LeBron is a better player than Kobe Bryant....

Even over the last two years, when Kobe has went to the Finals 3 yrs in a row and won Twice. But when its comes to Phil Jackson winning they say its because he has had Kobe Bryant

Why hasn't anybody that coached Lebron win a title yet since its that simple?

Fireworld
03-16-2011, 05:38 PM
Well, he did get Ron Artest to focus. I'd say he's a pretty good coach.

REGular
03-16-2011, 05:47 PM
Before PJ zero rings for MJ, Shaq, & Kobe. Also for all saying he had all these great players....The Lakers were a very good team.

Before MJ, Shaq, & Kobe PJ had zero rings.

Also, are you simply saying the Lakers didn't have a "great" team, they only had a "very good" team?


Even over the last two years, when Kobe has went to the Finals 3 yrs in a row and won Twice. But when its comes to Phil Jackson winning they say its because he has had Kobe Bryant

Why hasn't anybody that coached Lebron win a title yet since its that simple?

Because Mike Brown didn't also have Pau Gasol.

Seriously, Phil Jackson & Kobe Bryant were back-to-back 1st round outs until they got more talent.

championships
03-16-2011, 05:57 PM
Opinions are like *** holes. Everyone one has one. All i know is since the Lakers hired Phil Jackson, My team has won more championships than yours. I would say he has done the job the Lakers has asked of him. You can say he is overrated, who cares, It's your opinion, but I'll take all the ships his overrated *** brought to the Lake Show.



C'mon Phil, get your 4th three peat of your career. :up:

Albrecht Duerer
03-16-2011, 06:04 PM
Opinions are like *** holes. Everyone one has one. All i know is since the Lakers hired Phil Jackson, My team has won more championships than yours. I would say he has done the job the Lakers has asked of him. You can say he is overrated, who cares, It's your opinion, but I'll take all the ships his overrated *** brought to the Lake Show.



C'mon Phil, get your 4th three peat of your career. :up:

If you just ignore him, he'll have nothing to hampsterwheel to.

Toadman
03-16-2011, 06:04 PM
Before MJ, Shaq, & Kobe PJ had zero rings.

Also, are you simply saying the Lakers didn't have a "great" team, they only had a "very good" team?



Because Mike Brown didn't also have Pau Gasol.

Seriously, Phil Jackson & Kobe Bryant were back-to-back 1st round outs until they got more talent.

I'm saying that the Lakers had an even better team with Nick Van Exel & Eddie Jones along with everyone else & yet they still couldn't win a Ring till PJ came along.

sep11ie
03-16-2011, 06:06 PM
Really doesn't matter if he's over/under rated. All coaches are second to this man.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Xeqk8ZPAg9w/SZs8jgQjcmI/AAAAAAAABIc/LiL1s2IoKdo/s400/2008-05-13-Jeff_Van_Gundy_On_Alonzo_Mournings_Leg.jpg

championships
03-16-2011, 06:08 PM
Before MJ, Shaq, & Kobe PJ had zero rings.
Also, are you simply saying the Lakers didn't have a "great" team, they only had a "very good" team?



Because Mike Brown didn't also have Pau Gasol.

Seriously, Phil Jackson & Kobe Bryant were back-to-back 1st round outs until they got more talent.

That statement makes no sense. Ofcourse he didn't have rings. It was his first head coach job in the N.B.A. He did lead his CBA team to a ship as a head coach.

REGular
03-16-2011, 06:12 PM
That statement makes no sense. Ofcourse he didn't have rings. It was his first head coach job in the N.B.A. He did lead his CBA team to a ship as a head coach.

Cute . . . what about without MJ when Phil failed to make the Finals . . .

Bottom line is without a championship-great team, Jackson's teams haven't really fared any better than other "great" coaches.

heathonater
03-16-2011, 06:23 PM
phil isnt overrated at all, it is a great accomplishment to win 11 nba titles as a coach. jackson has been very fortunate to coach guys like jordan, kobe, and oneal, but as we've seen with the heat this year, just rolling the ball out there wont guarantee anything for a highly talented team.

NYKalltheway
03-16-2011, 06:31 PM
No matter how much you can question Phil Jackson's luck, quality as coach or anything, the guy is a legend. That's what history will say and you will tell your grandchildren that you watched the NBA when Phil Jackson was coach to the Bulls and the Lakers

mRc08
03-16-2011, 06:36 PM
would lebron james have a ring if phil would have been his coach since he was drafted?

PippensBulls
03-16-2011, 06:39 PM
Phenomenal talent that comes with Jordan or Kobe is very very rare. Someone who has that sort of talent on their team with a good supporting cast, who can constructively say guys calm down and let's try a little harder is imo MUCH easier to find.

Much easier to find? You mean coaches with 11 rings are dime a dozen?


Phil, lucked into his situation with Chicago and because of his success with CHI was able to patiently wait for and given the opportunity for Kobe/LA to fall in his lap.

What about the time when he took over a 33 win team Lakers? Yeah he waited patiently for that to fall in his lap.


'zen master', umm let them play through their mistakes and not call a time out to strategize? easy to do when you have the 'best' player in the league. Yes, Phil is over rated.

Watch some games bud. Phil does the same thing even when his entire starting lineup is sitting on the bench. And he doesn't matter whether the team loses or not. Or else LA wouldn't have lost to the Cavs or the Pacers this season. The Lakers have so much talent, right?

REGular
03-16-2011, 06:41 PM
What about the time when he took over a 33 win team Lakers?

Exactly. The team was a one-and-done in the playoffs for 2 seasons until they reloaded with talent.

knightstemplar
03-16-2011, 06:47 PM
No way is PJ overrated. He's 1146 - 480 that's a .705 W-L% 11 x NBA Champ. MJ and Kobe had 0 rings combined before Phil coached them.

:clap:

More-Than-Most
03-16-2011, 06:55 PM
I am not sure overrated is the word to use... He is an amazing coach but he did have the benefit of coaching some of the greatest players ever in the nba and in the world.

AIRMAR72
03-16-2011, 06:57 PM
2 as a player - he didn't even play a minute 1 of those seasons due to spinal surgery (as far as I can tell online), and the other season he was a bench player. You really think he should get bonus credit for coaching for those rings?

he(coach phil) was trouble maker in his playing days for da knicks he was always runing his big mouth starting fights

ko8e24
03-16-2011, 07:01 PM
he(coach phil) was trouble maker in his playing days for da knicks he was always runing his big mouth starting fights

And that's why Knicks Head Coach Red Holzman loved the guy and felt that when PJ was injured, the best thing he could do was take PJ under his wings and mentor him on the bench? :rolleyes:

Avenged
03-16-2011, 07:06 PM
Overrated because he has more rings than fingers? Sure, I guess. Lets call Jordan overrated while we're at it for having Pippen and Phil. Lets call Kobe overrated for having Shaq and Phil. Lets call Duncan overrated for having Pop, Tony, Manu..

It goes both ways. Fact is, his system has delivered championships. He was lucky enough to have the perfect star players to lead his system, and the players were lucky enough to have a coach under that system.

JNA17
03-16-2011, 07:08 PM
Overrated because he has more rings than fingers? Sure, I guess. Lets call Jordan overrated while we're at it for having Pippen and Phil. Lets call Kobe overrated for having Shaq and Phil. Lets call Duncan overrated for having Pop, Tony, Manu..

Don't copy Hellcrooner, next thing you know what you'll also copy his best players list. GOAT=Magic Johnson and best player on the Lakers is Pau Gasol, and Jose Calderon is one sexy beast.

Avenged
03-16-2011, 07:12 PM
It's hard to tell. I won't ever call him overrated, but he's certainly had the benefit of some amazing teams :shrugs:

If he does come back after this year, I wish he'd do it with an average team. He won't, but I just wish we could see what he'd do with one.

He coached an average team a few years ago. A team that consisted of Kwame and Smush as starters.. This was when Kobe was in his prime, but still, he got them into the playoffs and were 1 game from eliminating an elite Suns team.

Not many, if any, coaches will do wonders with an average team. Every coach needs talent to win, and players need a coach to win.

Avenged
03-16-2011, 07:14 PM
Don't copy Hellcrooner, next thing you know what you'll also copy his best players list. GOAT=Magic Johnson and best player on the Lakers is Pau Gasol, and Jose Calderon is one sexy beast.

I guess :shrug: Don't even know what your talking about but sure.

If he said something similar then more power to him. Great minds think alike.

Bruno
03-16-2011, 07:15 PM
Phil Jackson is not overrated. Extremely lucky? Absolutely. Is he the best coach of all time? Probably. Is he miles ahead of Red, Popavich, or other all-time great coaches? No.

Say what you will about his luck. He has had the opportunity to coach three top ten players of all time, in their prime. Their resumes under Jackson speak for themselves. He doesn't deserve all the credit, but if you don't think he had a lot to do with it, or that he didn't help develop/influence those three players then you haven't been paying attention.

I love Phil Jackson because of his un-orthodox approach to coaching, and player management. In the sports world the majority of the time the coach is a thick-skinned traditional hard *** who uses loud volumes and physical mannerisms to nail the point across. Phil has developed his own unique style, contradictory to the orthodox method used in coaching the vast majority of the time, and has experienced great success in diong so.

Phil is the ultimate role model for his players. Mind over matter, be the moment. Phils players are able to keep their cool under pressure, because he never loses his. :cool:

Respect the mustache.

JNA17
03-16-2011, 07:17 PM
I guess :shrug: Don't even know what your talking about but sure.

If he said something similar then more power to him. Great minds think alike.

I was joking :p.

xxcubs22xx
03-16-2011, 07:18 PM
Are you ****ing kidding me?

How the **** is PJ overrated?

Sly Guy
03-16-2011, 07:18 PM
:rolleyes: Dantoni and Spo is doing a hell of a job right?

Anybody who calls Phil Jackson, a guy who has more rings then fingers overrated is completely ********.

Oh btw, how many titles does MJ and Kobe have together without Phil as their coach?

the 'rings' argument is just as fallible for coaching as it is for players. Not saying PJ is overrated, but I'd say Sloan is a better coach than PJ, and he has 0 rings.

Bruno
03-16-2011, 07:22 PM
the 'rings' argument is just as fallible for coaching as it is for players. Not saying PJ is overrated, but I'd say Sloan is a better coach than PJ, and he has 0 rings.

In your opinion, what makes Sloan a better coach?

Kevj77
03-16-2011, 07:28 PM
Phil Jackson is far from overrated.. If you look at all the great coaches they all had great players.. Red Aurbach had Russel, John H., Bob Cousy... Pat Riley Had Magic, Kareem, James Worthy.. Greg Popvich had Tim Duncan David Robinson, Manu, Tony PArker... Phil Jackson has won Championships with different clubs with different styles of players..

And just cuz you have a stacked team doesnt mean you will win.. Rockets team had Hakeem, Barkley, and Drexler and lostQFT.. All great coaches have had great players. Is Riley overated because he coached Magic, Kareem, Worth, Ewing, Shaq and Wade? What about Aurbach he had a roster full of HOFers. Chuck Daly had the Bad Boys. Pop hasn't exactly coached scrubs in David Robinson, Duncan, Manu, Parker and a ton of very good role players. How good of a coach was Doc Rivers before he got 3 HOFers to coach?

I do give an advantage to coaches that are also great in the front office like Riley or Pop, but all great coaches are overated if you think Phil is because he had talent.

JRisdabest
03-16-2011, 07:41 PM
yep

celtisox41
03-16-2011, 07:47 PM
QFT.. All great coaches have had great players. Is Riley overated because he coached Magic, Kareem, Worth, Ewing, Shaq and Wade? What about Aurbach he had a roster full of HOFers. Chuck Daly had the Bad Boys. Pop hasn't exactly coached scrubs in David Robinson, Duncan, Manu, Parker and a ton of very good role players. How good of a coach was Doc Rivers before he got 3 HOFers to coach?

I do give an advantage to coaches that are also great in the front office like Riley or Pop, but all great coaches are overated if you think Phil is because he had talent.

The difference with auerbach is that he drafted all of those hall of famers, traded for them, and basically made the celtics the best team in the NBA and his coaching helped a lot of them become great. He didn't jump ship to a star loaded team when the best player on his team was getting old like Jackson. Jackson is very overrated

celtisox41
03-16-2011, 07:50 PM
Much easier to find? You mean coaches with 11 rings are dime a dozen?



What about the time when he took over a 33 win team Lakers? Yeah he waited patiently for that to fall in his lap.



Watch some games bud. Phil does the same thing even when his entire starting lineup is sitting on the bench. And he doesn't matter whether the team loses or not. Or else LA wouldn't have lost to the Cavs or the Pacers this season. The Lakers have so much talent, right?

you can tell he's not doing much though, all he does is publicly criticize Kobe to fire him up. He is a weak coach, he should talk to him in private if he wants to say things about Kobe, plus he watched his team basically roll over and lose by 38 in the finals to the celtics (i know it was a few years ago but still...)

PLAYERS FAN
03-16-2011, 07:51 PM
People are underestimating the triangle offense. It's the main reason why Jordan started to trust his teammates, and won championships.

Confusious
03-16-2011, 08:05 PM
Good lord no. He's incredible with how he can handle ego's. He's the best coach in his own sport, I'd say.

IDB Josh M
03-16-2011, 08:26 PM
There's no question in my mind that he is a great coach. Because I've seen guys who get great teams on paper and they butcher it up, you see?

cite: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2088260

Now shuttup you haters! Especially Celtics fans.

/Thread

PippensBulls
03-16-2011, 08:30 PM
Exactly. The team was a one-and-done in the playoffs for 2 seasons until they reloaded with talent.

Umm...what? Phil turned that team from **** to playoff bound, and was 1 win away from upsetting a 2 seed. By the third season they were climbing up the West and that was before they got Pau for a bag of Doritos.

Anilyzer
03-16-2011, 08:54 PM
I think he is, the man had the best player ever in Michael Jordan and now has probably the best player in Kobe... I just think he's overrated like he's some coaching god, but in all reality every championship he had his teams were stacked, what do you guys think ? Who is an actual better "coach" ?

Overrated? Maybe, depending on who is doing the rating.

Has he completely owned the league, by positioning himself to commandeer the top teams of two generations and winning ELEVEN Championships? Yes.

LAKERMANIA
03-16-2011, 10:00 PM
the 'rings' argument is just as fallible for coaching as it is for players. Not saying PJ is overrated, but I'd say Sloan is a better coach than PJ, and he has 0 rings.

Sloan??

If Sloan was really better he would have out-coached PJ at least once out of two times in the finals... MJ or no MJ..

The only argument against Phil is Red Auerbach.. That's it.. no one else, not Riley, not Sloan...

You don't get 11 rings by 'only' having great players, you are a great coach if you have won 8 in a row or 3 three-peats..

And for those who think Phil never had a 'mediocre' team he took to the playoffs, what about the Jordan-less Bulls in 1993-1994, they had Pippen, Kukoc, and Beuchler.. And they were only two wins shy of having the same record as with Jordan in the 1992-1993 season.. And went pretty far in the playoffs..

And don't get me started with the Smush-Kobe-Kwame Lakers who almost beat the Suns in the first round, the same team that missed the playoffs with nearly the same roster except for Caron Butler the year before..

magic0320
03-16-2011, 10:59 PM
lol at least Phil can say he won rings without Jordan or without Bryant haha

Kevj77
03-16-2011, 11:06 PM
The difference with auerbach is that he drafted all of those hall of famers, traded for them, and basically made the celtics the best team in the NBA and his coaching helped a lot of them become great. He didn't jump ship to a star loaded team when the best player on his team was getting old like Jackson. Jackson is very overratedI did say the coaches that can do both are better. I'll give Red credit for being a great GM and coach, but I doubt he could do what Phil has in the modern NBA. When Red's Celtics started winning championships there was only 8 NBA teams and no free agency. Also he traded the Ice Capades for just one week to Rochester if they didn't pick Russell 1st overall and let him fall to the Celtics at #2 lol. The freaking Ice Capades are you kidding me.

Can you imagine the Lakers trading the Grammies for the top pick haha. It was a different era. Red was great, but I don't think he could have won 11 rings in the modern era.

LAKERMANIA
03-17-2011, 02:26 AM
I did say the coaches that can do both are better. I'll give Red credit for being a great GM and coach, but I doubt he could do what Phil has in the modern NBA. When Red's Celtics started winning championships there was only 8 NBA teams and no free agency. Also he traded the Ice Capades for just one week to Rochester if they didn't pick Russell 1st overall and let him fall to the Celtics at #2 lol. The freaking Ice Capades are you kidding me.

Can you imagine the Lakers trading the Grammies for the top pick haha. It was a different era. Red was great, but I don't think he could have won 11 rings in the modern era.
qft

Kevj77
03-17-2011, 03:31 AM
Red was probably the greatest GM in history, so I'm not trying to take anything away from him. Even better than Jerry West. He did trade the Ice Capades for Russell, he also drafted Larry Bird as a Junior in 78 with the 6th pick overall, but Bird stayed in college and the Celtics kept his rights. Lakers drafted Magic the next year and they were both rookies the same year. Bird would have been the 2nd overall pick in 79 and wouldn't have been a Celtic. That can't happen now. He traded for Parish and drafted McHale as well, so he built the great 80s Celtics.

I just don't think he is as good of a coach as Phil, but if you combine both and that he did it for one franchise Red is the man.

Law25
03-17-2011, 04:04 AM
Honestly i thought he was overrated when he was with the Bulls. Than i witness him bring Kobe and Shaq together to be one of the greatest one two punches in NBA history. If you look its looked out this way youll understand. Jordan no Phil no ring, Pippen no Phil no ring, Kobe no Phil no ring as of now, Shaq no Phil one ring, Pau no Phil no ring. Say what you want about his coaching during games, but he must be doing something amazing in practice.

ragee
03-17-2011, 04:32 AM
Wasn't Red's Celtics stacked as well? Does that mean he was overrated too? That being said, I would still pick Popovich over Phil Jackson any given day...

Sly Guy
03-17-2011, 08:26 AM
In your opinion, what makes Sloan a better coach?

consistency with less talent. If you want to make the claim that phil jackson get's the most out of his players, you've gotta give him a roster that isn't expected to do well and see how he fares.

Take nothing away from the man, Jackson has done what he's 'suppost to with the the players he's had, but to me that's just like plotting a graph who's maximum value is 100 on a scale of 80...you can't see where the peak actually is.

With Sloan, he's been to the playoffs with a small market team with a far smaller payroll [on average] with stunning consistency for many, many years. A lot of those teams were contenders, but many were not. This shows me he's the type of coach that can handle development of youth, all stars, and role players. While Jackson has shown me he can deal with all-star level egos, but does that make him an as well rounded teacher of the game?

Sly Guy
03-17-2011, 08:33 AM
Sloan??

If Sloan was really better he would have out-coached PJ at least once out of two times in the finals... MJ or no MJ..

The only argument against Phil is Red Auerbach.. That's it.. no one else, not Riley, not Sloan...

You don't get 11 rings by 'only' having great players, you are a great coach if you have won 8 in a row or 3 three-peats..

And for those who think Phil never had a 'mediocre' team he took to the playoffs, what about the Jordan-less Bulls in 1993-1994, they had Pippen, Kukoc, and Beuchler.. And they were only two wins shy of having the same record as with Jordan in the 1992-1993 season.. And went pretty far in the playoffs..

And don't get me started with the Smush-Kobe-Kwame Lakers who almost beat the Suns in the first round, the same team that missed the playoffs with nearly the same roster except for Caron Butler the year before..

I hear you, I really do, but 2 seasons without a $90mil payroll really give an accurate reflection of what he can do with less? I think 2 seasons in 20 is too small a sample size to judge.

Besides, the lakers that year still had kobe, and kobe was out to prove he was better than shaq. Still is. He's still the same kobe that we regard as one of the best players in the game, and like a lot of the best players in the game, we regard him as a guy that should be able to take a team to the playoffs on his back.

And as for the Bulls, the bulls are still a strong roster without jordan that year.....not at saying not having him doesn't hurt the team, but you can't deny there is talent on that roster either.

Bruno
03-18-2011, 12:49 AM
consistency with less talent. If you want to make the claim that phil jackson get's the most out of his players, you've gotta give him a roster that isn't expected to do well and see how he fares.


Google the 2006 and 2007 LA Lakers. Take Phil Jackson and Kobe Bryant off those team and they're channeling the 9-73 mark made by the 76ers.

Those teams became 7th seats because of Phil and Kobe.

LAKERMANIA
03-18-2011, 12:57 AM
I hear you, I really do, but 2 seasons without a $90mil payroll really give an accurate reflection of what he can do with less? I think 2 seasons in 20 is too small a sample size to judge.

Besides, the lakers that year still had kobe, and kobe was out to prove he was better than shaq. Still is. He's still the same kobe that we regard as one of the best players in the game, and like a lot of the best players in the game, we regard him as a guy that should be able to take a team to the playoffs on his back.

And as for the Bulls, the bulls are still a strong roster without jordan that year.....not at saying not having him doesn't hurt the team, but you can't deny there is talent on that roster either.
93-94 B.J. Armstrong
93-94 Corie Blount
93-94 Bill Cartwright
93-94 Jojo English
93-94 Horace Grant
93-94 Steve Kerr
93-94 Stacey King
93-94 Toni Kukoc
93-94 Luc Longley
93-94 Pete Myers
93-94 John Paxson
93-94 Will Perdue
93-94 Scottie Pippen
93-94 Bill Wennington
93-94 Scott Williams

Really? This team won 55-27? without Jordan? 3 wins less than with Jordan??? How can you say this team was talented enough to win 55.. This was PJ at his finest, no Jordan and he still took the team with an immature Pippen (remember the Kukoc buzzerbeater in the playoffs that year drawn up by, yes that's right.. PJ) To the second round, nearly to the ECF..

Sly Guy
03-18-2011, 12:21 PM
93-94 B.J. Armstrong
93-94 Corie Blount
93-94 Bill Cartwright
93-94 Jojo English
93-94 Horace Grant
93-94 Steve Kerr
93-94 Stacey King
93-94 Toni Kukoc
93-94 Luc Longley
93-94 Pete Myers
93-94 John Paxson
93-94 Will Perdue
93-94 Scottie Pippen
93-94 Bill Wennington
93-94 Scott Williams

Really? This team won 55-27? without Jordan? 3 wins less than with Jordan??? How can you say this team was talented enough to win 55.. This was PJ at his finest, no Jordan and he still took the team with an immature Pippen (remember the Kukoc buzzerbeater in the playoffs that year drawn up by, yes that's right.. PJ) To the second round, nearly to the ECF..

Pippen is a top 50 all time player.
Kukoc is a European legend, a long player with versatile skills
Horace Grant is one of the best rebounders of all time
Steve Kerr is one of the best 3 point shooters of that era.
----------------------------------------------------------
even without Jordan, the team had a balanced attack, and familiarity with each other. Jordan is the icing on that cake, the last piece to that puzzle, the guy that puts them over the top. What happened that year? They didn't win the east....even PJ couldn't save them.

As for Bruno; like I said earier, if Kobe is one of those 'top 10 all time' type players, then he's expected to carry his team to the playoffs, and he did. Wasn't PJ saying Kobe was 'uncoachable' during that time and threatening to leave the team? In my mind, that 7 seed wasn't Kobe and PJ, just Kobe.

jim51990
03-18-2011, 12:44 PM
when people mention him in the same breath as red yes
in most cases no, as much as i dislike him he has succeeded with the great talent he has had
for example i really believe lebron is one of the greatest players ive ever seen imo 3rd after magic and mj and no coach has been able to coach him to a championship

smith&wesson
03-18-2011, 01:02 PM
every championship team is stacked, thats why they are champions because theyre players are playing at the highest level. so while coach jackson has had some pretty stacked teams, other championship coaches have also had some stacked teams.

name me a championship team that wasnt stacked.

Bruno
03-18-2011, 07:11 PM
Pippen is a top 50 all time player.
Kukoc is a European legend, a long player with versatile skills
Horace Grant is one of the best rebounders of all time
Steve Kerr is one of the best 3 point shooters of that era.
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even without Jordan, the team had a balanced attack, and familiarity with each other. Jordan is the icing on that cake, the last piece to that puzzle, the guy that puts them over the top. What happened that year? They didn't win the east....even PJ couldn't save them.

As for Bruno; like I said earier, if Kobe is one of those 'top 10 all time' type players, then he's expected to carry his team to the playoffs, and he did. Wasn't PJ saying Kobe was 'uncoachable' during that time and threatening to leave the team? In my mind, that 7 seed wasn't Kobe and PJ, just Kobe.

No that was before Jackson left the first time in 2004. By the time of Phils return and the beginning of his second stint Kobe and Phil were cool and working together.