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View Full Version : Clutch is Overrated?



blams
03-14-2011, 11:35 PM
Just some food for thought:

3 points in the first quarter is equal to, in every sense of the word, 3 points in the last 5 seconds.

If you take away a last 5 second shot, and add it to the first or second or third...or earlier in the fourth, you have the same score.

I just don't understand the infatuation with clutch. It's been essentially disproven in baseball for A-Rod.

Don't start arguments, just give your opinion. Stats are useless here because no matter what, it's just a part of the pie and great stretches in the first and second carry a team just as much as great stretches in the fourth for the most part.

What are your thoughts PSDers?

Car Ramrod
03-14-2011, 11:43 PM
Not at all overrated. Pressure is what makes a players career. Micheal Jordan is the best ever not just because of his stats.

It takes certain player to show up to big game. The shots may be of the same value on the scoreboard but they are not of the same importance to the game.

Hellcrooner
03-14-2011, 11:47 PM
It wouldnt be overated except for the fact that some players HOG the ball like crazy on the Clutch minutes.

The more times you try the more clutch shots you will make.

Simple Math.

blams
03-14-2011, 11:48 PM
That isn't true. If you add a first quarter shot, and take away a fourth quarter shot, and have a good FG percentage, that is 'showing up' in the same way and getting it done.

Swashcuff
03-14-2011, 11:50 PM
OP I am not trying to make a slight at you in any way shape or form because I understand where you are coming from but I have a question.

Do you watch a ton of basketball games?

Kashmir13579
03-14-2011, 11:52 PM
The more times you try the more clutch shots you will make.

Simple Math.

:facepalm:

blams
03-14-2011, 11:52 PM
OP I am not trying to make a slight at you in any way shape or form because I understand where you are coming from but I have a question.

Do you watch a ton of basketball games?

Yes, I do. Every Bulls game, and anything on ESPN and TNT.

It 'feels' better when it's done at the end. I'm not arguing that. But ultimately it is = where it matters. Take away 3 from the first, and don't replace it, you lose.

Swashcuff
03-14-2011, 11:53 PM
:facepalm:

:up:

Kyben36
03-14-2011, 11:53 PM
theres a reason that teams with clutch players win more games. some players arnt finishers, you cant expect them all to be. not every player in the league is able to create for himself or others, that is in a way clutch. not every player has the confidence in hitting a game winning shot, others do, thats clutch.

John Walls Era
03-14-2011, 11:56 PM
Good points with both sides... theres no middle ground is there?

blams
03-15-2011, 12:00 AM
Player A: 35 points, 45 percent FG percentage, missed 3 shots in the last minute to win it.

Player B:15 points, 30 percent FG percentage, made 2 shots in the last minute to help, and ultimately put his team over the other team.


PLAYER A is the reason they won. Player B played horribly and was the reason why it was close. Player A deserves the credit. He was the better player and is of higher quality. He was nothing short of spectacular.Player B should be criticized for a poor performance.

Assume = defense, rebounds, and assists.

Swashcuff
03-15-2011, 12:05 AM
Yes, I do. Every Bulls game, and anything on ESPN and TNT.

It 'feels' better when it's done at the end. I'm not arguing that. But ultimately it is = where it matters. Take away 3 from the first, and don't replace it, you lose.

I fully agree but as you and I both know basketball doesn't work out like that.

The pressure of the big moments is where ELITE athletes (mostly Elite but of course you have guys like Robert Horry and Aaron Boone) shine. A player could have a bad game offensively all game but if his team is able to stay in the game regardless and he takes them over the hump late all is forgiven.

If it's the other way around however and the player has a great start to the game but doesn't finish as good he is going to be chastised for not being able to finish the job.

OF COURSE the law of averages will not change when you make/miss shots but the fact is players are remember for their late game heroics and not just for their starts.

You mentioned A-Rod earlier but why just A-Rod and not Mo. Rivera is widely regarded as not only the best closer of all time but one of the best post season pitchers in MLB history period. One can say that hey 3 outs at the beginning of the game is just as easy as 3 out at the end but that's not the case anyone who has ever stepped onto a baseball field knows that 3 outs at the end of the game is the toughest to get.

Same as basketball.

The clutch is where the game gets most interesting. Its when players usually bring the best of their best and coaches draw up their best plays in order to get a crucial basket. A player who gets it done in the clutch holds more value in that regard over one who doesn't.

Nothing overrated their if you ask me.

blams
03-15-2011, 12:07 AM
I fully agree but as you and I both know basketball doesn't work out like that.

The pressure of the big moments is where ELITE athletes (mostly Elite but of course you have guys like Robert Horry and Aaron Boone) shine. A player could have a bad game offensively all game but if his team is able to stay in the game regardless and he takes them over the hump late all is forgiven.

If it's the other way around however and the player has a great start to the game but doesn't finish as good he is going to be chastised for not being able to finish the job.

OF COURSE the law of averages will not change when you make/miss shots but the fact is players are remember for their late game heroics and not just for their starts.

You mentioned A-Rod earlier but why just A-Rod and not Mo. Rivera is widely regarded as not only the best closer of all time but one of the best post season pitchers in MLB history period. One can say that hey 3 outs at the beginning of the game is just as easy as 3 out at the end but that's not the case anyone who has ever stepped onto a baseball field knows that 3 outs at the end of the game is the toughest to get.

Same as basketball.

The clutch is where the game gets most interesting. Its when players usually bring the best of their best and coaches draw up their best plays in order to get a crucial basket. A player who gets it done in the clutch holds more value in that regard over one who doesn't.

Nothing overrated their if you ask me.
I understand every point you are making, however I don't necessarily agree. This is such a great topic, as long as posters don't come in here and bait and insult. I'm sure some asshats will ruin it :laugh2:

Swashcuff
03-15-2011, 12:09 AM
I understand every point you are making, however I don't necessarily agree. This is such a great topic, as long as posters don't come in here and bait and insult. I'm sure some asshats will ruin it :laugh2:

I like the debate because it's really hard for me to understand that someone thinks clutch play is overrated.

What is it exactly that you don't agree with?

blams
03-15-2011, 12:14 AM
It matters in the end. It is isn't the end all be all that many make it out to be. Refer to me Player A, Player B post. I could never be convinced that Player B was even a decent player in the game, in fact he was awful. If you look at A-Rod's playoff stats in more depth, you will see he actually has been great BTW. Most choose to ignore that.

Basically my answer is refer to that post. It is my thinking essentially. It isn't always that black and white...but it is sometimes.

King P
03-15-2011, 12:16 AM
Problem is most people don't understand the difference between a clutch player and a clutch shooter.

Just because you miss a last second shot, doesn't mean you arent clutch.

Swashcuff
03-15-2011, 12:17 AM
It matters in the end. It is isn't the end all be all that many make it out to be. Refer to me Player A, Player B post. I could never be convinced that Player B was even a decent player in the game, in fact he was awful. If you look at A-Rod's playoff stats in more depth, you will see he actually has been great BTW. Most choose to ignore that.

Basically my answer is refer to that post. It is my thinking essentially. It isn't always that black and white...but it is sometimes.

I am sorry but that player A and B example was a bit confusing for me. Which team won again?

ChiSox219
03-15-2011, 12:17 AM
Defense plays tighter in the last few minutes, baskets are tougher to come by. The best argument against clutch is if you think all proffesional athletes deal with pressure the same, I don't.

Albrecht Duerer
03-15-2011, 12:20 AM
Just some food for thought:

3 points in the first quarter is equal to, in every sense of the word, 3 points in the last 5 seconds.

If you take away a last 5 second shot, and add it to the first or second or third...or earlier in the fourth, you have the same score.

I just don't understand the infatuation with clutch. It's been essentially disproven in baseball for A-Rod.

Don't start arguments, just give your opinion. Stats are useless here because no matter what, it's just a part of the pie and great stretches in the first and second carry a team just as much as great stretches in the fourth for the most part.

What are your thoughts PSDers?

You must be a LeBron fan?

blams
03-15-2011, 12:21 AM
I am sorry but that player A and B example was a bit confusing for me. Which team won again?

They're on the same team.

Sorry :(

blams
03-15-2011, 12:22 AM
You must be a LeBron fan?
Players are being left out in my posts. Just hypotheticals :)

Swashcuff
03-15-2011, 12:23 AM
Problem is most people don't understand the difference between a clutch player and a clutch shooter.

Just because you miss a last second shot, doesn't mean you arent clutch.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

EXACTLY!!!

You aren't a clutch player if you are used on a situational basis late in the game because you are good on D or a good FT/3PT shooter, you are a role player who's good in a certain aspect of basketball.

Consistent clutch shooting is a gift in all honesty.

But players who are able to make stops late in games to deny those shots on a consistent basis deserves some love and recognition as well.

Chitownhero14
03-15-2011, 12:23 AM
Not true, clutch is the ability to perform in the crunch time of the game. 1st quarter is not crunch time...it is time to get the blood flowing and to make a good start, 4th quarter is the time to put the game away they are two different areas as well.

4th quarter you're tired, your bloods flowing, heart pumping. 1st quarter you're getting lose, finding your stroke.

PurpleJesus
03-15-2011, 12:31 AM
yes, clutch matters.

The argument against if clutch matters is that 2 points is 2 points regardless if it happens in the 1st quarter or the 4th quarter...and that is completely true, but if those 2 points are scored in the 1st quarter, the game is played quite a bit differently than if the player hits a 2 point shot with 30 seconds left.

douglas
03-15-2011, 01:24 AM
3 pointer in the 1st quarter = 3 points

3 pointer to win the game = 3 points + praise + glory + the love of several beautiful women

Bullsfan22
03-15-2011, 01:43 AM
Defense plays tighter in the last few minutes, baskets are tougher to come by. The best argument against clutch is if you think all proffesional athletes deal with pressure the same, I don't.

Bingo. More pressure.

bringinwood
03-15-2011, 01:54 AM
A touchdown in the first minute is the same as in the last...

Tell that to Peyton Manning or Tom Brady...

A three pointer is the same in the first minute of a game as the last...

Tell that to Michael Jordan...

The last strike of a game is equivilent to the first...

Tell that to Mariano Rivera

The last run is the same as the first...

Reggie Jackson disagrees...


There are guys who just perform better when the game is on the line... They are legends because so many other, more talented players have faltered...
It takes mental toughness to perform at that level...

It's definitely not overrated...

kozelkid
03-15-2011, 02:12 AM
Defense plays tighter in the last few minutes, baskets are tougher to come by. The best argument against clutch is if you think all proffesional athletes deal with pressure the same, I don't.

This. There's a reason certain players cannot handle playing in those moments and in fact, are quite useless. There's a reason why the last 5 minutes in a close game, your best player will have the ball the whole time. It's the same reason why Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant or Dwyane Wade etc would become the pgs of their team when they play sg and bring the ball up the court. The same reason you see a guy like Lebron deciding to defend Rose in those last few minutes. It's simple, players will use more energy and more effort.

People can't honestly believe a player will be putting the same effort at some random junction in the middle of the 2nd quarter and the last 5 minutes of a game. Doesn't work that way. In those last minutes, a player will be giving his all, and in those last few minutes the weak will give up or crack and the strong will continue on.



Problem is most people don't understand the difference between a clutch player and a clutch shooter.

Just because you miss a last second shot, doesn't mean you arent clutch.

This is also true.

This sums up why I get so annoyed when people call Lebron a "choker" for missing last second shots that are very difficult to make for anyone and are more about luck than anything.

abe_froman
03-15-2011, 02:42 AM
no,it isnt.i want clutch

buch88
03-15-2011, 03:12 AM
Clutch is overrated in terms of "being clutch" and "choking." Just because a player misses a game winning shot, people want to say they choked. Choking is when your arms get tight and your shot looks weird. Missing the game winning shot is simply missing. Jordan's missed many game winners. Does that mean he "choked?" Nope. He just simply missed. You can't make every shot. Being clutch is, well, being clutch. Missing the last shot doesn't mean you choked though.... unless it's an airball or a shot that's way off. laker fans want to say kobe's so clutch. How about the game winning shots he's missed? He's missed a lot, but that doesn't mean kobe choked. he just simply missed the shot. Same goes with lebron, wade, dirk, durant, and any player capable of hitting a game winning shot and that's done it before.

heyman321
03-15-2011, 03:45 AM
You're right but basketball is judged by wins and losses. Who cares if someone had 61 pts, 15 boards, 10 assists, 4 blocks, and 2 steals, if you go cold and shoot 0-7 in the last 3 mins with the game on the line? Nobody will remember that stat line, only the loss. You might as well have Robert Horry come and tackle you into the sideboards.

magichatnumber9
03-15-2011, 07:45 AM
I'm clutch. It's nothing to rate. You either have balls under pressure or you don't.

faze38
03-15-2011, 09:21 AM
This sums up why I get so annoyed when people call Lebron a "choker" for missing last second shots that are very difficult to make for anyone and are more about luck than anything.

No people call him a choker because he has been missing the big shoot for 7 1/2 years now. I mean he has 1 memorable big shot and then the man lost right after making that big shot. I mean look what happened to Miami when Wade became the go to guy against the Lakers they won! Lebron isn't a clutch player he is a great player but he isn't clutch! Clutch is a word reserved for guys like Kobe, MJ and Melo! Those guys live for the big moment to quote Melo "this is what I do" is how those guys feel and they back it up! When Lebron starts backing it up then people will stop saying he chokes until then the name LeBrick will stick! That's just how it is!

Back to the thread in no way shape or form is being clutch overated because many times Kobe and even the great MJ have had bad games but when it came down to that last second shot, the ice water in their veins showed up and guided that last second shot in to the hoop for the win. I mean the clutchness of players is what seperates players like Elgin Baylor (0 rings) and MJ (6 rings)!

Let's use your type of example with players on diffrent teams!

Player A 35pts 50% Fg% 8 rebs 7 assist 1 for 6 in the 4th with 2 chances at a game winner missed! 13/26 FG 3/9 3pt FG 6/9 Ft

Player B 31 Pts 36% Fg% 4 Rebs 6 assist 6 for 7 in the 4th hit the game winning 3 over player A! 9/25 Fg 3/5 3pt Fg 10/12 Ft

Which player do u want on your team I want B because even tho A played the better game even with his best efforts he wasn't able to pull out the win when it mattered most! Last time I checked winning is all that matters! When u put them on the same team yes it's obvious that player A had the better game but when u put them on opposing teams and the winner is the player with the worse shooting % who do you take then because most likely that is when clutch comes into play when Player A goes up against another of the NBA's elite in Player B!

I mean some people believe that clutch shots are a matter of luck but isn't it funny how luck seems to follow the same players consistently, it's a skill that very few people have and in the NBA sometimes it's the diffrence between no rings and a dynasty! In other sports it's not as important to be clutch unless u are a certain position such as a pitcher or QB but in the NBA were a single player can effect the outcome of a game 80% of the time it is everything.

ILMindState
03-15-2011, 09:58 AM
No way clutch is overrated, no matter what sport you play the pressure builds up at the very end. It's a lot easier to shoot free throws, or hit a wide open jump shot in the 1st quarter than it is with less than 5 seconds left. If you were playing your friend for money in 2K11 and you had the ball with 10 seconds left it's probably more difficult to score than in the first quarter of that game.