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View Full Version : Dwight Howard has been fouled 593 times this year & Not one Flagrant Foul Called!



Mile High Champ
03-10-2011, 11:29 AM
Stan Van Gundy recently stated that Dwight Howard going into this past Tuesday had been fouled 593 times in 61 games this year (Howard missed 3 games this year or the number would be 64). That works out to being fouled 9.73 times per game. Of those 593 fouls, not one has been called for a flagrant foul. Something seems very off about this considering the rate of fouls per contest, something surely should of happened by now. I have seen Howard get physically abused on some fouls with nothing intential ever called? Why do you think it is? Is it because he is so much bigger and stronger than everyone else that refs and the league feel he can take the punishment? Why are the rules being ignored in this case and why has the league ignored this. You can see the SVG interview below.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_bianchi/2011/03/dwight-howard-a-victim-of-david-stern-and-league-endorsed-maimings.html

Crackadalic
03-10-2011, 11:34 AM
Thats nothing compare what Shaq had to go through in his early years

Mile High Champ
03-10-2011, 11:35 AM
Thats nothing compare what Shaq had to go through in his early years

Care to back that up with a statistic? The fact that he has not had one flagrant call go in his favor is downright crazy.

Atticus Finch
03-10-2011, 11:47 AM
He's getting the Shaq treatment, too big and too strong so refs assume smaller players can't actually commit a flagrant foul on him. I remember watching a Lakers game years ago when Shaq still was on the team, he was asking a ref about a foul and I could clearly hear the ref say to Shaq "well you're so big."

Mile High Champ
03-10-2011, 11:52 AM
He's getting the Shaq treatment, too big and too strong so refs assume smaller players can't actually commit a flagrant foul on him. I remember watching a Lakers game years ago when Shaq still was on the team, he was asking a ref about a foul and I could clearly hear the ref say to Shaq "well you're so big."

I agree, I think it is for that reason but its downright crazy not to call even one flagrant out of 593 times. I think the league really need to reevaluate this and stop worrying so much about technical fouls for hanging on the rim 1 second too long.

Shmontaine
03-10-2011, 12:01 PM
D12 hurts more people when they foul him than vice versa...

DITKA4GOV
03-10-2011, 12:02 PM
That is a pretty insane stat. I think Howard is the best center in the league and a future hall of gamer. With saying all that, Howard has also become quite the cheap shot artist. Throwing bows, a little extra pushing while running down the court. Throw a shoulder here and there. So yes it sucks he gets fouled as much as he does, But I am starting to believe he deserves most of it.

nickdymez
03-10-2011, 12:04 PM
Why is this posted twice? But i do agree, howard gets killed

Mile High Champ
03-10-2011, 12:05 PM
I have no idea why one of the MOD's moved the thread like this in the NBA forum from the magic forum. Makes no sense.

Madtown22
03-10-2011, 12:19 PM
that's a lot

ldawg
03-10-2011, 12:25 PM
The NBA need to stop their S#Lt. I can see from a far how frustrated he must be. He is not even Big like Shaq.

Supreme LA
03-10-2011, 12:25 PM
He's getting the Shaq treatment. For some reason, fouls don't look as bad when they're commuted on guys as big as them but that doesn't make it right. These guys get battered and beaten down low. It's just the name of the game. Teams don't wanna five you easy buckets. It takes a toll on their bodies but I don't think it will change.

ldawg
03-10-2011, 12:30 PM
How can they not call excessive fouling to protect Howard and Allow Lebron to offensive foul his way in the lane play after play after play after play making a living on the line? Howard and Kobe have a hard time getting calls with people hacking at them all the time but you can't lay a finger or breath on Lebron and Wade? That always make me wonder if the NBA rigged. And you wonder why they have so many techs taking matter into their own hand protecting themselves. They know the politics and unfairness that goes on.

DITKA4GOV
03-10-2011, 12:31 PM
Howard is no angel himself either. If you dish it, you have to take it. Its a lot of fouls, but he also gets away with some no calls (off. Fouls) too.

Mile High Champ
03-10-2011, 12:33 PM
Howard is no angel himself either. If you dish it, you have to take it. Its a lot of fouls, but he also gets away with some no calls (off. Fouls) too.

I am leaning more toward with him getting the short end of the stick.

blahblahyoutoo
03-10-2011, 12:38 PM
That is a pretty insane stat. I think Howard is the best center in the league and a future hall of gamer. With saying all that, Howard has also become quite the cheap shot artist. Throwing bows, a little extra pushing while running down the court. Throw a shoulder here and there. So yes it sucks he gets fouled as much as he does, But I am starting to believe he deserves most of it.

agreed.

also to add, i don't think a flagrant foul has anything to do with the foul rate so the point of this thread is moot.

Hawkeye15
03-10-2011, 12:38 PM
He's getting the Shaq treatment, too big and too strong so refs assume smaller players can't actually commit a flagrant foul on him. I remember watching a Lakers game years ago when Shaq still was on the team, he was asking a ref about a foul and I could clearly hear the ref say to Shaq "well you're so big."

exactly right. Guys like Shaq, and even Dwight to an extent, are so tough to call. They are so strong, that something that may take a normal person apart doesn't even effect them.

Its a tough grey area for refs

ldawg
03-10-2011, 12:42 PM
exactly right. Guys like Shaq, and even Dwight to an extent, are so tough to call. They are so strong, that something that may take a normal person apart doesn't even effect them.

Its a tough grey area for refsA foul is a foul not because a guy is big does not mean it don't hurt.

ldawg
03-10-2011, 12:45 PM
Lebron is big too and should not be rewarded for bowling over and injuring people. Many of them are moving screens and offensive fouls. That is not right and same way its not right to yank on Howard arms when in the air and continue to yank after the whistle that is how players get injured. The NBA do not want the players to complain so they should call the game correct and not frustrate players with bias calls.

Hawkeye15
03-10-2011, 12:51 PM
A foul is a foul not because a guy is big does not mean it don't hurt.

agreed. But what causes a ref to call a flagrant? Its when someone goes crashing down after being hit. Guys like Shaq and D12 are so strong, there is nobody that can cause them to do that. This is what I am referring to.

ldawg
03-10-2011, 12:54 PM
agreed. But what causes a ref to call a flagrant? Its when someone goes crashing down after being hit. Guys like Shaq and D12 are so strong, there is nobody that can cause them to do that. This is what I am referring to.Maybe he need to go to acting class then...lol.....and play the refs for the fools they are.

Storch
03-10-2011, 12:57 PM
The OP must realize that Centers are always treated this way. The refs are quite biased in giving foul calls to bigs because they're bigs. They don't feel like touch fouls affect them much hence they receive less foul calls and flagrants in general.

I believe Shaq and Yao complained about this one year and it got a lot of attention.

On a side note, imagine how hard you'd have to hit Dwight to make it look like a flagrant foul, as opposed to point guards. You'd have to be pretty strong and hit strong to deliver a flagrant on a guy like D12.

Mile High Champ
03-10-2011, 12:58 PM
The OP must realize that Centers are always treated this way. The refs are quite biased in giving foul calls to bigs because they're bigs. They don't feel like touch fouls affect them much hence they receive less foul calls and flagrants in general.

I believe Shaq and Yao complained about this one year and it got a lot of attention.

Trust me, I know, I played at the varsity level in university and I was a center, I know what we go through in the post. I only imagine it being 10 fold in the NBA. Despite these players being bigger, a foul is still a foul and I have seen many of an occasion this year when Howard was downright abused trying to put up a shot.

ManRam
03-10-2011, 01:02 PM
Definitely the hardest player in the league to fairly officiate. I'll leave it at that.

I'll also add: I understand why he gets so frustrated. I do wish he would learn how to handle it better though. Can't afford another suspension. No Dwight=no win for us. We're the Cavs without him.

DITKA4GOV
03-10-2011, 01:05 PM
They hold on to Howard's arms after the whistle to keep him from an and 1. Hat is part of the game and taught by many coaches. If ur gonna foul, don't let them get the shot up.

ghettosean
03-10-2011, 01:06 PM
I have no idea why one of the MOD's moved the thread like this in the NBA forum from the magic forum. Makes no sense.
I'm ok with this post being in the NBA forum... It's more about the stat and Howard than the Magic team themselves.

avsman05
03-10-2011, 01:07 PM
I was a sg in college the paint is no joke you go in there you get hit. If a player was doing well they always got a little extra tap to try to knock them out of the game may be rough but I'm sure everyone goes at Howard harder because he's so talented too

Atticus Finch
03-10-2011, 01:18 PM
exactly right. Guys like Shaq, and even Dwight to an extent, are so tough to call. They are so strong, that something that may take a normal person apart doesn't even effect them.

Its a tough grey area for refs

I feel like flagrant fouls are called based on how it looks after the foul. If the guy doesn't go down or at least severely flinch the refs assume it was just a good hard foul. Unfortunately it's pretty hard to move a guy like Howard or Shaq, so the occurrences where flagrant fouls are called in favor of them goes way down, and the occurrences of flagrant fouls called against them goes up.

On the other hand Howard has shot 711 free throws this year, neither Blake Griffin or Lebron have even cracked 600 yet. So it does seem kind of silly to complain about flagrant fouls when he's shooting 11.5 free throws a game. Maybe SVG just wants other people to shoot the free throws for fouls committed against Dwight.

Mile High Champ
03-10-2011, 01:18 PM
I'm ok with this post being in the NBA forum... It's more about the stat and Howard than the Magic team themselves.

I posted the thread twice. Once here and once in the magic forum. For some reason, a mod moved the thread out of the magic forum. That is what I meant.

Cubs Win
03-10-2011, 01:20 PM
Maybe he need to go to acting class then...lol.....and play the refs for the fools they are.

Well Derrick Rose learned to get more foul calls this year (just look at his trips to the line in Nov/Dec vs. Jan/Feb), so it's definitely possible. But Dwight is already getting the calls, it's just the severity of the calls. I tend to agree with Hawkeye on this one. When a guy is as strong as Dwight Howard, it's gonna take one hell of a foul to make it look like a flagrant.

macc
03-10-2011, 01:20 PM
Yes it is tough to ref Dwight when it comes to Flagarants, the big issue is how many over the shoulder fouls he's had and none of them been called a flagarant. It's one thing to foul Dwight from getting an easy dunk, but many many many times have people grabbed him around the neck w/ just a regular foul being called. That's the issue in my eyes.

cambovenzi
03-10-2011, 01:22 PM
So they actually call a ridiculous amount of fouls in favor of dwight.. and people STILL complain?

The number of times fouled doesn't matter when determining flagrant fouls.
If a foul is deserving of a flagrant and THEN its not called, you can bring it up.

bovice163
03-10-2011, 01:23 PM
In my experience watching games, refs usually look for hard contact/fouls in which most cases the player goes down hard. I've seen plenty of fouls on Dwight where he's been hit across the face, or wrapped around the neck and it was waved off as a simple foul. I think the problem is that Dwight is just unbelievably strong and balanced, and when he's fouled the contact doesn't look all that bad. If someone were to push him in the back resulting in a hard fall, I think there would be little reason not to call the flagrant.

RCarlson85
03-10-2011, 01:53 PM
Not saying it's right, but the reason he probably doesn't draw any flagrant foul calls is because of his size. He is just massive so it takes alot to make the foul look violent enough to warrant a flagrant. The effect/reaction is alot of what causes the flagrant to be called and it just doesn't happen with Howard like it does with most other players.

ldawg
03-10-2011, 01:57 PM
The NBA and refs need to handle the beat up on Howard tour.

metsbulls1025
03-10-2011, 02:07 PM
Would this be an issue if Dwight kept his cool and didn't mouth off and swing his elbows all the time?


I am not meaning that in a smart *** way and it is a serious question. I understand he is frustrated, but he needs to realize what he means to his team. If anything he needs to keep working on FT's because it will only get worse in the playoffs.

metsbulls1025
03-10-2011, 02:09 PM
To add to what I was saying. He is so big that you have to foul him harder in order for him not to make the shot.

KnIckNy212
03-10-2011, 02:11 PM
Hes so strong when guys hit him they bounce off of him hes like Lebron when they get fouled hard its looks like a harmless foul because they are freaks of nature

pd1dish
03-10-2011, 02:12 PM
Care to back that up with a statistic? The fact that he has not had one flagrant call go in his favor is downright crazy.

not really. hes always the biggest, strongest guy on the court. how can you really foul him in a way that looks as though you are putting him in danger. if anything, its more dangerous to be the guy fouling Dwight than it is to actually be him. hes next to impossible to move. also, not to mention that most of time when players foul Howard, they are just using the "hack-a-shaq" technique and sending him to the line, so they arent hard fouls. they just try to make it hard enough to make him miss the shot and earn the points at the line.

mRc08
03-10-2011, 02:18 PM
to be fair, howard is so big, any fould by him would at least feel like a flagrent. Lets not forget the injuries and hard fouls he has dished out himself. He needs to hit free throws so that teams arn't inclined to foul him. He can get T'ed up all he want complaining about being hacked, but if he is gonna shoot poorly from the free throw line, I say hack away. The man dishes out a lot of pain, his arms alone weigh more than delonte west, so why can't teams foul just as hard as he does?

Solution= hit free throws leads to less fouls leads to tighter flagrent calls on him

NYCkid12
03-10-2011, 02:19 PM
That is a pretty insane stat. I think Howard is the best center in the league and a future hall of gamer. With saying all that, Howard has also become quite the cheap shot artist. Throwing bows, a little extra pushing while running down the court. Throw a shoulder here and there. So yes it sucks he gets fouled as much as he does, But I am starting to believe he deserves most of it.

this year he has started doing that and i think he is trying to send a message to the lg that hes not going to be pushed around anymore...personally i like it..he has a added toughness

NYCkid12
03-10-2011, 02:21 PM
To add to what I was saying. He is so big that you have to foul him harder in order for him not to make the shot.

also a good point...he's gunna have to learn to live with it too b/c he's gunna deal with it his whole career

xTEK101x
03-10-2011, 02:23 PM
See this is how i look at it, every foul on dwight should be a flagrant or intentional foul. The definition of flagrant means it was BLATANT AND OBVIOUS. And if im correct is that not what every foul on dwight is. The nba is slippin and doesnt even follow there own rules. They need to tighten up cause if it was anybody but dwight gettin fouled like he does there would no doubt me multiple flagrants called.

blahblahyoutoo
03-10-2011, 02:25 PM
See this is how i look at it, every foul on dwight should be a flagrant or intentional foul. The definition of flagrant means it was BLATANT AND OBVIOUS. And if im correct is that not what every foul on dwight is. The nba is slippin and doesnt even follow there own rules. They need to tighten up cause if it was anybody but dwight gettin fouled like he does there would no doubt me multiple flagrants called.

so then every foul in the last minute of close games are now flagrants.
excellent.

xTEK101x
03-10-2011, 02:27 PM
Well, yes if you want to get technical. Yes they should be.

Doogolas
03-10-2011, 02:30 PM
Dwight is hard to get a flagrant against. Almost anyone fouling him isn't going to be able to knock him down. And I don't think I've ever seen a flagrant called unless a guy fell to the ground, and hard. Dwight is simply so ****ing strong that that's damn near impossible.

blahblahyoutoo
03-10-2011, 02:35 PM
Dwight is hard to get a flagrant against. Almost anyone fouling him isn't going to be able to knock him down. And I don't think I've ever seen a flagrant called unless a guy fell to the ground, and hard. Dwight is simply so ****ing strong that that's damn near impossible.

size and the ability to take hits have nothing to do with flagrant fouls.

flagrant fouls are either fouls with INTENT to harm (flagrant 2), or fouls without making an attempt at the basketball (flagrant 1).
they are meant to prevent players from committing overly hard fouls that might cause serious injury.

flclfanman
03-10-2011, 02:36 PM
That's the price you pay for being so dominant in the paint :shrug:

smith&wesson
03-10-2011, 02:36 PM
thats disapointing. theres something really wrong with the way games are being officiated now a days.

the guy gets fouled on average 9-10 times a game, and not one is flagrant.. but he in turn gets 16 called on him and gets suspended as a result. thats nuts.

i know he throws alot of bows, but maybe thats due to the frustration of getting hacked all game while the refs swollow theyre whistles.

flclfanman
03-10-2011, 02:37 PM
Dwight is hard to get a flagrant against. Almost anyone fouling him isn't going to be able to knock him down. And I don't think I've ever seen a flagrant called unless a guy fell to the ground, and hard. Dwight is simply so ****ing strong that that's damn near impossible.

This. Unless someone throws a punch or bow at Dwight's head, then no flagrant will be called.

da wood
03-10-2011, 02:46 PM
it should be very flustrating for him since he always gets fouled and nothing is call to and he gets called for a lot of calls

ewing
03-10-2011, 03:11 PM
Stan Van Gundy recently stated that Dwight Howard going into this past Tuesday had been fouled 593 times in 61 games this year (Howard missed 3 games this year or the number would be 64). That works out to being fouled 9.73 times per game. Of those 593 fouls, not one has been called for a flagrant foul. Something seems very off about this considering the rate of fouls per contest, something surely should of happened by now. I have seen Howard get physically abused on some fouls with nothing intential ever called? Why do you think it is? Is it because he is so much bigger and stronger than everyone else that refs and the league feel he can take the punishment? Why are the rules being ignored in this case and why has the league ignored this. You can see the SVG interview below.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_bianchi/2011/03/dwight-howard-a-victim-of-david-stern-and-league-endorsed-maimings.html


Flagrant fouls are rare and Dwight is frequently wraped up before he even elevates or can get his arms up b/c defenders know they wont be able to stop him and he cant shoot free throws. If Dwight doesn't want to get hit there is a simple answer- learn to shoot free throws

Double_R
03-10-2011, 03:29 PM
Howard is no angel himself either. If you dish it, you have to take it. Its a lot of fouls, but he also gets away with some no calls (off. Fouls) too.

You must not get Magic games if you think that Howard gets away with no calls. First off, everyone in the NBA gets away with a no call from time to time, but Howard is treated less like a superstar and more like a role playing starter. There is not a superstar player in the last decade that gets treated like DH; He gets called for more ticky-tack fouls than most, but yet the same or harder fouls happen to him and they are no calls. Not to mention that the people that are comparing his treatment to Shaq's I agree, but at the time that was happening, Shaq wasn't getting T'd up for showing any emotion. Howard can't get away with anything after he is hacked; as soon as he shakes his head the refs are watching him and they are like "he shook his head" "tech", "he walked away from the player who fouled him" "tech", "he dunked it too hard" "tech"

Double_R
03-10-2011, 03:32 PM
If KG can do this to him and it's not a flagrant, then he better not be expecting any flagrnts any time soon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGCn6-uIfRY

ewing
03-10-2011, 04:00 PM
If KG can do this to him and it's not a flagrant, then he better not be expecting any flagrnts any time soon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGCn6-uIfRY

I've never seen anyone called for a flagrant for pushing a hand check away. The fact that he used his elbow might get Howard the call but its wasn't a clear cut flagrant. Try again

wa77ss
03-10-2011, 04:06 PM
I've never seen anyone called for a flagrant for pushing a hand check away. The fact that he used his elbow might get Howard the call but its wasn't a clear cut flagrant. Try again

ur an idiot, that wasn't pushing. it was trying to break his arm. if Dwight did that to anyone he would break an arm and be kicked out the league. thats def a flagrant, should have been at least

Atticus Finch
03-10-2011, 04:10 PM
I've never seen anyone called for a flagrant for pushing a hand check away. The fact that he used his elbow might get Howard the call but its wasn't a clear cut flagrant. Try again

What KG did had nothing to do with basketball or playing defense. If that's not a flagrant might as well throw that rule out entirely.

Sadds The Gr8
03-10-2011, 04:13 PM
shows how bull **** the NBA is. NBA has the biggest joke of a reffing system ever...

ewing
03-10-2011, 04:15 PM
ur an idiot, that wasn't pushing. it was trying to break his arm. if Dwight did that to anyone he would break an arm and be kicked out the league. thats def a flagrant, should have been at least


How the hell are you going to break an arm like that. A deep bruise sure. Its impossible to break someones floating arm with a elbow to the bicep area. Show me get his legs taken out from under him while he is in the air or someone blind side him hard in the air. Those are the type of plays that usally get you flargrants. B/c he used the elbow that time KG could have gotten called for one but when guys start banging in the post its rare anything gets called a flargrant and ref probably only saw that KG was swating at his arm and not that he was using the elbow

ewing
03-10-2011, 04:17 PM
what kg did had nothing to do with basketball or playing defense. If that's not a flagrant might as well throw that rule out entirely.



waaaaah

Mile High Champ
03-10-2011, 04:23 PM
Flagrant fouls are rare and Dwight is frequently wraped up before he even elevates or can get his arms up b/c defenders know they wont be able to stop him and he cant shoot free throws. If Dwight doesn't want to get hit there is a simple answer- learn to shoot free throws

You are going really off topic on this. Dwight is complaining that he is getting fouled all the time, his coach is making note that despite the fact that he has been hard fouled on many of any occasion, the refs refuse to acknowledge and call it for what it is, A Flagrant Foul.

ewing
03-10-2011, 04:31 PM
You are going really off topic on this. Dwight is complaining that he is getting fouled all the time, his coach is making note that despite the fact that he has been hard fouled on many of any occasion, the refs refuse to acknowledge and call it for what it is, A Flagrant Foul.


I'm going off what is recongized as a flagrant foul in game situations. Other then elbowing someone in the head its rare that a flagrant will be called unless you blindside a guy mid air creating a dangerous fall or undercut someones legs in the air. The fact that the defender wraps D12 up before he gets up prevents the type of "dangerous" situation that is normally called a flagrant. If someone took D12 out of the air on a fast break the game would stop and there would be a flagrant.

magichatnumber9
03-10-2011, 04:32 PM
c'mon Dwight treats the officials like ****.

Wade>You
03-10-2011, 04:34 PM
Who cares, his team shoots 30 FTAs and 30 3PTAs in the same game.

yoseppii12
03-10-2011, 04:35 PM
Stan Van Gundy recently stated that Dwight Howard going into this past Tuesday had been fouled 593 times in 61 games this year (Howard missed 3 games this year or the number would be 64). That works out to being fouled 9.73 times per game. Of those 593 fouls, not one has been called for a flagrant foul. Something seems very off about this considering the rate of fouls per contest, something surely should of happened by now. I have seen Howard get physically abused on some fouls with nothing intential ever called? Why do you think it is? Is it because he is so much bigger and stronger than everyone else that refs and the league feel he can take the punishment? Why are the rules being ignored in this case and why has the league ignored this. You can see the SVG interview below.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_bianchi/2011/03/dwight-howard-a-victim-of-david-stern-and-league-endorsed-maimings.html

total of 89 flagarants called this year. Average # of fouls by team so far this year is 1339. Multiple by 30 teams = 40170 total fouls. By your logic, that is .002 flagarants per regular foul. YOU ARE CORRECT! DWIGHT DESERSEVES 1.314 on the year. He's been cheated!

Dumb thread. Dumb SVG.

Double_R
03-10-2011, 04:37 PM
I've never seen anyone called for a flagrant for pushing a hand check away. The fact that he used his elbow might get Howard the call but its wasn't a clear cut flagrant. Try again

Several people have already responded to your asinine comment for me, but seriously with this post? You call that "pushing a hand check away", hahahaha. It wasn't a clear cut flagrant??? It looked like he was flagrantly fouling this siht out of DH.

Second post:
You must have watched the video on your ipod ultra-nano because he clearly is throwing a 12-6 elbow directly on his forearm. There is a reason the the UFC banned 12-6 elbows and btw you can definitely break someones arm that way.

Doogolas
03-10-2011, 04:37 PM
size and the ability to take hits have nothing to do with flagrant fouls.

flagrant fouls are either fouls with INTENT to harm (flagrant 2), or fouls without making an attempt at the basketball (flagrant 1).
they are meant to prevent players from committing overly hard fouls that might cause serious injury.

I'm well aware of that. But size and ability to take hits DOES matter. Because if a guy doesn't look like a hit did anything to him, the hit doesn't look like it was intended to hurt anyone. It just looks like he got hit.

Perception is reality. And if you see a guy get hit hard but not be affected by it, the assumption on sight is that, "Well, it was a hard foul, but nobody was trying to hurt anybody." Then you see a little guy get hit the same way and it's like, "****, he just tried to kill him!" Because the little guy gets splattered on the ground.

Doogolas
03-10-2011, 04:39 PM
total of 89 flagarants called this year. Average # of fouls by team so far this year is 1339. Multiple by 30 teams = 40170 total fouls. By your logic, that is .002 flagarants per regular foul. YOU ARE CORRECT! DWIGHT DESERSEVES 1.314 on the year. He's been cheated!

Dumb thread. Dumb SVG.

Wow. Interesting.

yoseppii12
03-10-2011, 04:40 PM
btw dwights top ten in fouls per game, top in techs, and has 1 flagarant to his name for the year.

Also 1 guard is in the top 30 in fouls on the year. Obvious reasons people just look at the stats. big men foul the most the are the biggest! obviously they will have more flagants called against them then on them? like what kind of question is that. If Rondo tried hurting someone he fails! remember when he threw hinrich into the scorers table, no one was even hurt lol little guys can't hurt anyone thats why they hardly get it called

nyKnicks126
03-10-2011, 04:45 PM
Dwight Howard is way to strong, and the opponents usually foul him too hard.. It is unfair because if it was a weaker center their probably would have been flagrant foul calls.. This also relates to his technicals this year..

The thing I don't like about Dwight is that on the post it seems like he pushes his way in to get inside the paint..

blahblahyoutoo
03-10-2011, 04:55 PM
I'm well aware of that. But size and ability to take hits DOES matter. Because if a guy doesn't look like a hit did anything to him, the hit doesn't look like it was intended to hurt anyone. It just looks like he got hit.

Perception is reality. And if you see a guy get hit hard but not be affected by it, the assumption on sight is that, "Well, it was a hard foul, but nobody was trying to hurt anybody." Then you see a little guy get hit the same way and it's like, "****, he just tried to kill him!" Because the little guy gets splattered on the ground.

i understand what you're saying but it's still pretty black and white to me.
refs shouldn't be watching how the receiving player reacts. they should be reviewing the offending player's actions.

on all hard fouls, the refs decision making flowchart should look like this:
1. was there an attempt made at the basketball?
no- flagrant foul.
yes- was it excessive? yes- flagrant foul.

2. was it malicious? yes? flagrant foul.


i haven't watched many ORL games.
have there been instances of hard fouls where a flagrant should've been called but wasn't?

and it looks like many people are still overlooking this.
foul rate has NOTHING to do with flagrant fouls.!!!

basically, howard sucks at FT so he'll get fouled intentionally more often than others in close games. plus he logs a lot of minutes per game. plus the fact that he plays in the paint where fouls are more likely to happen than outside.
he just gets fouled a lot. it doesn't mean they were flagrant fouls.

FuriousJatt
03-10-2011, 04:57 PM
D12 hurts more people when they foul him than vice versa...

it still hurts him though. the point isnt if he gets hurt or not, the point is the other players are committing same kind of hard fouls on his as smaller players so why doesnt he get frag calls in his favor?

Doogolas
03-10-2011, 04:58 PM
i understand what you're saying but it's still pretty black and white to me.
refs shouldn't be watching how the receiving player reacts. they should be reviewing the offending player's actions.

on all hard fouls, the refs decision making flowchart should look like this:
1. was there an attempt made at the basketball?
no- flagrant foul.
yes- was it excessive? yes- flagrant foul.

2. was it malicious? yes? flagrant foul.


i haven't watched many ORL games.
have there been instances of hard fouls where a flagrant should've been called but wasn't?

and it looks like many people are still overlooking this.
foul rate has NOTHING to do with flagrant fouls.!!!

basically, howard sucks at FT so he'll get fouled intentionally more often than others in close games. plus he logs a lot of minutes per game. plus the fact that he plays in the paint where fouls are more likely to happen than outside.

But it's not that easy. I'm sure refs are TRYING to watch for that. But it's simply not that easy. Because if a guy goes and jacks Dwight and then falls to the ground while Dwight is standing up, it's not gonna look like the guy was going for some malicious hit, even if he was, because Dwight came out on top. It's impossible for a ref to call a flagrant on the guy who ends up on the ground. There's just no way they can do it, especially in the moment, because they don't have 25 angles with which to examine every foul and tell.

It may not be fair, but it is probably 99% of the reason that there hasn't been a flagrant on any of the fouls on Dwight.

redwhitenblue
03-10-2011, 05:03 PM
total of 89 flagarants called this year. Average # of fouls by team so far this year is 1339. Multiple by 30 teams = 40170 total fouls. By your logic, that is .002 flagarants per regular foul. YOU ARE CORRECT! DWIGHT DESERSEVES 1.314 on the year. He's been cheated!

Dumb thread. Dumb SVG.
/thread

Dwight and SVG continue their immaturity.



I'll say this too, when you complain after every single whistle, you're not going to get things like flagrants unless it's amazingly evident.

Illa215
03-10-2011, 05:05 PM
Maybe he should learn to shoot free throws?

Mile High Champ
03-10-2011, 05:13 PM
I'm going off what is recongized as a flagrant foul in game situations. Other then elbowing someone in the head its rare that a flagrant will be called unless you blindside a guy mid air creating a dangerous fall or undercut someones legs in the air. The fact that the defender wraps D12 up before he gets up prevents the type of "dangerous" situation that is normally called a flagrant. If someone took D12 out of the air on a fast break the game would stop and there would be a flagrant.

You are generalizing. Every play does not result in Howard being wrapped up before he can shoot. That is my main issue with what you are saying. Every foul is not the exact same on Howard every time. I think there has to be more flagrants than simply just for times when players appeared injured.

Mile High Champ
03-10-2011, 05:16 PM
total of 89 flagarants called this year. Average # of fouls by team so far this year is 1339. Multiple by 30 teams = 40170 total fouls. By your logic, that is .002 flagarants per regular foul. YOU ARE CORRECT! DWIGHT DESERSEVES 1.314 on the year. He's been cheated!

Dumb thread. Dumb SVG.

You have missed the ball on this completely. The real issue is that the NBA is not calling any flagrant fouls at all no matter the situation and Dwight is perfect evidence of that. The fact that Dwight, who has been fouled more times than any other player and has not had once flagrant foul against him is downright pathetic and wrong considering the crap he deals with in the post.

bholly
03-10-2011, 05:23 PM
total of 89 flagarants called this year. Average # of fouls by team so far this year is 1339. Multiple by 30 teams = 40170 total fouls. By your logic, that is .002 flagarants per regular foul. YOU ARE CORRECT! DWIGHT DESERSEVES 1.314 on the year. He's been cheated!

Dumb thread. Dumb SVG.

This.

People going crazy over the 593 just because it looks like a big number, but without actually looking at other players' foul numbers or even just the overall ratio, is really ridiculous.

redwhitenblue
03-10-2011, 05:23 PM
You have missed the ball on this completely. The real issue is that the NBA is not calling any flagrant fouls at all no matter the situation and Dwight is perfect evidence of that. The fact that Dwight, who has been fouled more times than any other player and has not had once flagrant foul against him is downright pathetic and wrong considering the crap he deals with in the post.
No, as he showed quite clearly which YOU missed the ball on, is that it's statistically not that difficult to see that Dwight just very well may not have been flagrantly fouled.

People act like flagrants happen on a daily basis, they are extreme and over the top. Perhaps that hasn't occurred. Simply being hit above the shoulders doesn't equal a flagrant.

bholly
03-10-2011, 05:28 PM
You have missed the ball on this completely. The real issue is that the NBA is not calling any flagrant fouls at all no matter the situation and Dwight is perfect evidence of that. The fact that Dwight, who has been fouled more times than any other player and has not had once flagrant foul against him is downright pathetic and wrong considering the crap he deals with in the post.

Whether a foul is flagrant has absolutely nothing to do with how often a guy is fouled. Nothing.

It's sort of like me complaining that Elton Brand has been credited for 965 FGs since he came to Philly, but that not a single one has been credited as a three pointer, so the refs must be out to get him by giving him less points.

Don't get me wrong, maybe they do call the games harder for Dwight, I don't know - but they way to try and prove it is by showing clear examples of flagrants not being called, not by showing some barely related stat.

ewing
03-10-2011, 05:37 PM
Whether a foul is flagrant has absolutely nothing to do with how often a guy is fouled. Nothing.

It's sort of like me complaining that Elton Brand has been credited for 965 FGs since he came to Philly, but that not a single one has been credited as a three pointer, so the refs must be out to get him by giving him less points.

Don't get me wrong, maybe they do call the games harder for Dwight, I don't know - but they way to try and prove it is by showing clear examples of flagrants not being called, not by showing some barely related stat.


This

alexander_37
03-10-2011, 05:42 PM
How can they not call excessive fouling to protect Howard and Allow Lebron to offensive foul his way in the lane play after play after play after play making a living on the line? Howard and Kobe have a hard time getting calls with people hacking at them all the time but you can't lay a finger or breath on Lebron and Wade? That always make me wonder if the NBA rigged. And you wonder why they have so many techs taking matter into their own hand protecting themselves. They know the politics and unfairness that goes on.

ROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFLROFL

You must be kidding.

Lebron is scoring 26 ppg Kobe 25ppg

Kobe shoots FT 6.9 a game Lebron 8.6 take into account how many more 3's kobe shoot's about 50 so far this season and jump shots ( no idea but id imagine it's alot ) that leaves Lebron driving to the lane alot more so naturally he will garner more fouls so id hardly say this post is justified in the least considering the difference is like one and a half free throws a game.

Also Dwight dominates the league with a massive 11.5 free throws a game and 2nd place has 8.8 .................................................. ........

blahblahyoutoo
03-10-2011, 06:19 PM
Whether a foul is flagrant has absolutely nothing to do with how often a guy is fouled. Nothing.

It's sort of like me complaining that Elton Brand has been credited for 965 FGs since he came to Philly, but that not a single one has been credited as a three pointer, so the refs must be out to get him by giving him less points.

Don't get me wrong, maybe they do call the games harder for Dwight, I don't know - but they way to try and prove it is by showing clear examples of flagrants not being called, not by showing some barely related stat.

i think you, me and 2 other people in this thread are capable of processing simple, basic logic.

Atticus Finch
03-10-2011, 06:23 PM
Looking at Dwight's foul numbers since 2007/2008 he's committed 1040 fouls, and has only been called for 1 flagrant during that stretch. Looks like it's working both way, so regardless of if foul rate has anything to do with flagrant foul rate nobody really has anything to complain about.

McJoe
03-10-2011, 06:28 PM
That is a ridiculous number of fouls...9.73 a game could be 20 free throw attemps per game...that's unreal. He's 418 for 711 from the line according to basketball-reference.com which works out to 6.7 for 11.5 per game. That's ridiculous. If he could shoot a free throw to save his life he'd practically be leading the league in scoring...

s3antana5757
03-10-2011, 07:13 PM
Dwight does get absolutely whacked. Couple of observations. Think back to T. Parker getting pushed and landing about 12 rows deep. Dwight gets pushed probably that hard and still has the strength, balance, and ability to dunk that basketball.

Second, go back to next year. Remember when KG was trying to break his arm. It took about 3 shots for a foul to even get called, and even then, the most flagrant of fouls wasn't called as one.

Third, Dwight needs to stop b******* about the non-calls. No refs at any level like getting shown up or have their calls questioned. If I tell you you suck, you're going to say you don't and prove to ME you don't. That needs to be Stan's and his teammates jobs. Think of how many calls a guy like Kobe could get Dwight instead of soft Hedo and JJ.

ThunderZubb
03-11-2011, 12:47 AM
How can they not call excessive fouling to protect Howard and Allow Lebron to offensive foul his way in the lane play after play after play after play making a living on the line? Howard and Kobe have a hard time getting calls with people hacking at them all the time but you can't lay a finger or breath on Lebron and Wade? That always make me wonder if the NBA rigged. And you wonder why they have so many techs taking matter into their own hand protecting themselves. They know the politics and unfairness that goes on.


Lebum and Wade are Stern boy toys. You didn't know that they are Stern boyfriends on the side. Stern gotta have two mistress at least to fool around with.

rapjuicer06
03-11-2011, 09:37 AM
This.

People going crazy over the 593 just because it looks like a big number, but without actually looking at other players' foul numbers or even just the overall ratio, is really ridiculous.

thats not the case. you see guards that get fouled are mostly hit on the arm or bumped in to. when dwight gets fouled its a hard hit to the forearms or a bear hug, which is fine. just hard fouls. but when he's fouled, and then going up still and then fouled again, that should be called. you shouldn't be able to foul someone twice and only resulting in one foul. to me a foul after a foul should be a flagrant foul

Mile High Champ
03-11-2011, 10:01 AM
Whether a foul is flagrant has absolutely nothing to do with how often a guy is fouled. Nothing.

It's sort of like me complaining that Elton Brand has been credited for 965 FGs since he came to Philly, but that not a single one has been credited as a three pointer, so the refs must be out to get him by giving him less points.

Don't get me wrong, maybe they do call the games harder for Dwight, I don't know - but they way to try and prove it is by showing clear examples of flagrants not being called, not by showing some barely related stat.

Seriously? That is your example? How can you even compare your example with the discussion at hand. For one, 3 pointers are determined by hitting a shot behind the 3 point line, it is a rule that is not dependent on a human judgment. If you are behind the line and you make the shot, it goes for 3 points. In the case of fouls, the ref determines if there is a foul on a play. From there he or she determines the severity of the foul and whether there should call a flagrant foul on that play.

A foul is solely based on the ref's observation and opinion while a 3 pointer is determined by a set rule that is not judged on opinion but fact. The fact that 593 fouls have been committed against Dwight and not one flagrant has been called shows me that the refs are ignoring their responsibility to call a flagrant foul simply because Dwight is stronger than any other player or because he can take it.

Mile High Champ
03-11-2011, 01:34 PM
Looking at Dwight's foul numbers since 2007/2008 he's committed 1040 fouls, and has only been called for 1 flagrant during that stretch. Looks like it's working both way, so regardless of if foul rate has anything to do with flagrant foul rate nobody really has anything to complain about.

I don't think it works as well to take it from that angle. Dwight's fouls result from contact with the body or arm when a player is attempting or shot or driving in the lane. Howard more times than not alters the shot or blocks it. As a result, I think many opportunities where a flagrant could be called on him, he simply does not need to do it considering his size and strength.

blahblahyoutoo
03-11-2011, 01:49 PM
i'll say it one last time so you can just stop already.

foul rate has nothing to do with flagrant fouls.

Mile High Champ
03-11-2011, 05:02 PM
i'll say it one last time so you can just stop already.

foul rate has nothing to do with flagrant fouls.

Thanks for ignoring my last post.. :rolleyes: