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View Full Version : Rondo WithOUT the Big 3: A Different Story?



KnicksorBust
03-06-2011, 12:11 PM
Welcome back to the 2006 NBA Draft.

Phoenix Suns are on the clock after watching the Knicks select young defensive wingman Renaldo Balkman. Can't believe he slipped to #20! What a steal. Isiah Thomas has done it again!

Available at this point in the draft is Second Team All-SEC Kentucky Guard Rajon Rondo who averaged 11ppg / 6 rpg / 5apg shooting 48%Fg / 27% 3pt / 57%Ft. Suns select Rondo and promptly trade his rights and Brian Grant to the Boston Celtics. In return, the Suns will acquire a future first round pick the Celtics acquired from the Cleveland Cavaliers in exchange for swingman Jiri Welsch.

From there the rest is history. Rondo has at best what would be described as a mediocre rookie season for a weak Celtics team who then guts its roster to acquire Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett. Rondo's game take an immediate spike in production and has since grown to the point where he is debated among the top PGs in the league.

My question is simple: Would this progression have happened had Rondo not joined the Boston Celtics? How much better has Rondo become as player because of Paul Pierce/Ray Allen/Kevin Garnett?

KnicksorBust
03-06-2011, 12:14 PM
I believe that this is one of the most underrated aspects of acquiring the right superstars. Rondo's game has been elevated to elite levels by playing with teammates that have been All-Stars their entire careers.

Bluffmasta
03-06-2011, 12:15 PM
IMO rondo is great cuz of the big three, they spread the floor really well for him allowing him to attack the basket, on another team i think he wouldnt be as good because of his inability to shoot the ball.

Cubs Win
03-06-2011, 12:17 PM
Depending on the system, I think he still could have turned into a decent PG over time, and fringe all-star, but they really sped up his development and helped him put up better numbers.

Instead of having the Rondo we see now, I think now he'd be a 9 ppg/8 apg type PG, and becoming an 11 ppg/10 apg PG in a few years from now. His defense would also not be as heralded. Playing with KG and Perkins behind him in Thibodeau's system certainly helped out a lot. I think he'd still be recognized as an above-average defender, but not seen as great the way many seem to think he is now.

Frrrrank!!!
03-06-2011, 12:28 PM
Not sure where he would be, but the big 3 gave him a giant shove in his development.

IamKaiserSoze
03-06-2011, 12:30 PM
I believe that this is one of the most underrated aspects of acquiring the right superstars. Rondo's game has been elevated to elite levels by playing with teammates that have been All-Stars their entire careers.

this.

it isn't really fair to say how he would be without them. it's all about how we play with the players you have.

PrettyBoyJ
03-06-2011, 12:32 PM
Rondo is a product of the Big 3.. Before Rondo became the player he is now he was just an average guard without a jumpshot (which he still doesnt have). Idc what anybidy says winning changes your attitude and playing with great players boosts your confidence especially when you have there support, and it does help when your passing the ball to 3 future HOF's.. The way I see it minus the big 3 the Celtics would be a losing team which Rondo would be a part of putting a huge dent in his confidence which would result in a pattern of poor performances which would lead to performance anxiety that would cause him to get benched, the Celtics would be a lottery team and prob draft one of the many pgs in the 09 draft to replace him with thus ending his career as a Boston Celtic and looking for a team who could use a low self esteemed pg who's hasnt have much success in the league..

And as much as ppl say Rondo is the perfect PG because he gets the ball to everyone and his high IQ, and how he affects the game without scoring... Sooner or later there gonna want Rondo to be a dual threat and score and still get the team involved (i.e Derrick Rose, Deron Williams, Chris Paul) And Rondo is not a consistent scorer

Reversed86Curse
03-06-2011, 12:47 PM
Rondo has actually been more confident on both ends of the floor with one or more of his future hall of famers out of the lineup, a la the bulk of last year and 2009 playoffs. Truth is, nobody will ever know what he could have done with out the big 3 'cause it didn't happen that way. And we won't know how he'll do after them either 'cause we're not there yet. Time to move on

hotpotato1092
03-06-2011, 01:01 PM
People forget that Rondo was seen as a potential top 3 pick before the season started, then teams found out he couldn't shoot and he slipped to #21. The talent was always there, I think he would have put it all together regardless of where he ended up.

Sportfan
03-06-2011, 01:09 PM
He'd still be a very good player but not as good as he is today. Really depends where in the draft he was picked. In the 20's it would be an amazing team because he'd be going to a team with good players already there, and Rondo would be the perfect role player next to them

dwadefan03
03-06-2011, 01:15 PM
rondo would have become a good pg even if he didnt have the big 3. i mean chalmers has wade,bosh n bron and hes still mediocre...rondos a beast

blastmasta26
03-06-2011, 01:40 PM
I think Rondo would still be very good, his high IQ and great passing ability is a function of his talent. Playing with the HOFs in Boston accelerated his development, but he still would have been close to what he is now. I think his defense would have been worse and his numbers would have been a little lower, but he would be at around the same level.

J-Relo
03-06-2011, 01:49 PM
Rondo is a product of the Big 3.. Before Rondo became the player he is now he was just an average guard without a jumpshot (which he still doesnt have). Idc what anybidy says winning changes your attitude and playing with great players boosts your confidence especially when you have there support, and it does help when your passing the ball to 3 future HOF's.. The way I see it minus the big 3 the Celtics would be a losing team which Rondo would be a part of putting a huge dent in his confidence which would result in a pattern of poor performances which would lead to performance anxiety that would cause him to get benched, the Celtics would be a lottery team and prob draft one of the many pgs in the 09 draft to replace him with thus ending his career as a Boston Celtic and looking for a team who could use a low self esteemed pg who's hasnt have much success in the league..

And as much as ppl say Rondo is the perfect PG because he gets the ball to everyone and his high IQ, and how he affects the game without scoring... Sooner or later there gonna want Rondo to be a dual threat and score and still get the team involved (i.e Derrick Rose, Deron Williams, Chris Paul) And Rondo is not a consistent scorer

Not exactly. When C's got KG I was glad they didn't trade Rondo, even before the BIG 3 he showed the potential.

hugepatsfan
03-06-2011, 01:52 PM
I think they sped up his development. He's a great passer w/ a great basketball IQ, so I think he will always average a ton of assists. His defense is top notch as well. They've undoubetbly helped him, but Rondo is a very talented player.

The big leap in Rondo's game didn't come from his rookie year to his second year when the Big 3 came. It cam from his second year to his third year. And KG spent a lot of time out that year too. So it's pretty obvious that all of his development can't be attributed to the arrival of the Big 3.

northsider
03-06-2011, 01:52 PM
Its not what you have but, what you do with it and he sure as hell knows how to make the most of a good situation. You can't fault the guy for having a good team. I mean he isn't doing mediocre he is putting up some ridiculous passing numbers this year.

hugepatsfan
03-06-2011, 01:57 PM
Rondo is a great passer. That isn't really a product of the Big 3. His assist totals might be in part because of his teamates, but his passing ability isn't. Think of all the perfect passes he used to make to Perk, who has no touch around the basket. He makes some ridiculous passes to Ray because he has great vision. Whether the shot is made or not, it's still a great pass. But it's only an assist if the shot goes in.

Rondo plays great defense. Sure KG helps w/ that. But Rondo has a defensive mentality, and I don't think that would have been any different had the Big 3 not arrived.

The only weaknesses in Rondo's game are scoring and turnovers. I don't think that would be any different w/out the Big 3. He would still be a great passer and floor general, as well as a great defender. Those are abilities he has.

Scott Casazza
03-06-2011, 02:00 PM
Rondo would have been the same, if not better. I went to a few of his games his rookie season, and his speed, quickness, and creativity were evident then.

Statistically he did not change all that much per 48 from 06-07 to 07-08 in these categories.
Assists (8.0 -8.2)
Rebounds (7.6 -6.8)
Steals (3.3- 2.7)

His scoring improved from (13.1 to 17.0) along with his FG% (.418 to .492). This might be attributed to the addition of Garnett and Allen, but we didn't see a drop off the next season after Garnett's injury. In fact in the 08-09 post season he averaged near a triple double (16.0/9.7/9.8) with Garnett sidelined.

He has consistently averaged 3 steals per 48, actually posting 3.3 in his rookie season, a number that would lead the league this year.

The biggest knock on Rondo has been his mid range shooting, which has improved on a yearly basis. It could be argued that it would have come along faster if he had needed it more, but with the options he's had created no necessity.

Anyone who's spent time watching him has noticed his competitiveness and ability to raise his game in important situations, which is something that is missing in many "top tier" players (So far it appears as though LeBron brought only 47 minutes of talent to South Beach).

Of course his national recognition would have been lacking if Garnett and Allen hadn't been acquired and resulted in a championship. But that's a story that applies to plenty of players toiling away on bad teams (Brandon Jennings, Tyreke Evans, Kevin Love, Zach Randolph... etc.).

Let's cut to the chase of the real reason for this discussion. I assume that you're implying that with the addition of Amar'e and Carmelo, the other players around them will develop into better players, and at a faster pace.

Honestly, I don't see it happening that way. Yes the Knicks have improved with Amar'e this year, but that had obviously peaked which is why they were so interested in adding Carmelo. But despite his talent as a scorer, Carmelo doesn't appear to be the type of player that improves his teammates. A small sampling to be sure, but look how Denver has played with it's team of former teammates of these two, they don't seem to be dropping off in production.

If we accept the argument that Garnett, Allen and Pierce made Rondo a better player, we can also acknowledge that Garnett's intensity, Allen's work ethic and Pierce's tenacity had an impact on his development. To this point I don't see these qualities in Melo. He may develop into that type of leader, but he isn't there yet.

I hate to recycle the argument, but these two aren't what I would call complete players, and that will continue to haunt them until they do it on both ends of the court on a consistent basis. Yes, I watched them close out the Heat in that "statement game." So they shut down LeBron and Wade in a closely contested game. Who hasn't?

BkOriginalOne
03-06-2011, 02:09 PM
I watched Rondo play in college and loved his game, he was actually rated as a high as a top 5 pick in some boards - the guy lead his team in points, mins, asts, stls, rebs, for the better part of his last season there.
If Rondo didn't have the big 3, he'd still be a great defensive PG, rebounder and floor general, his talents wouldn't have been showcased as well because he's playing with really great finishers. Still, he'd be getting 8-9 dimes a game in a starter's role.

HaX
03-06-2011, 02:12 PM
He will struggle IMO, who will he have? Big Baby and that's it.

JWO35
03-06-2011, 02:35 PM
His Assist Numbers would be slightly down and his PPG would be way up...he would still be the same type of player he currently is, just more PPG and less ASP.

magichatnumber9
03-06-2011, 02:39 PM
rondo would have become a good pg even if he didnt have the big 3. i mean chalmers has wade,bosh n bron and hes still mediocre...rondos a beastthis

sunsfan88
03-06-2011, 02:45 PM
The Suns are pretty good at drafting PGs. First Jason Kidd, then Steve Nash, then Rajon Rondo, and the recent Goran Dragic (SA drafted him but PHX traded for him shortly after)

ZHawk1123
03-06-2011, 02:55 PM
PSD is officially addicted to Rajon Rondo.

magichatnumber9
03-06-2011, 03:16 PM
The Suns are pretty good at drafting PGs. First Jason Kidd, then Steve Nash, then Rajon Rondo, and the recent Goran Dragic (SA drafted him but PHX traded for him shortly after)
Goran is a beast. I agree you guys have a nose for the 1

drobe86
03-06-2011, 03:50 PM
You could say that about an great player in history. If kobe didn't get Shaq and then Gasol would he be where he is now? Isiah Thomas didn't have the bad boys would he be where he is now? If Reggie Miller had a legit second option in Indiana would he have a ring? If Magic Johnson didn't have James Worthy or Kareem Abdul Jabbar would he have been considered one of the greatest of all time? If Larry Bird didn't join the Celtics would he be where he is now? Point is... you can say that about any player in history. If you change any great players supporting cast then the outcome is most likely to change, because the variables change....

thekmp211
03-06-2011, 04:06 PM
look he got a chance to shine because of the big three, and probably learned a lot more in his time in the league than most players because of his environment.

still, if you watch rondo play you can see the kinds of skills that would translate anywhere.

ChiSox219
03-06-2011, 04:42 PM
Rondo was one of the league's best in APM before the big three showed up, something that is almost unheard of for a young player, especially a PG.

I think his development has slightly been helped. I think, with the size of hands, shooting may always be something he is also working on. His numbers are better playing with the Big 3 but I think if he were on another team, you'd see a decline in assists but rise in scoring.

hard_candy
03-06-2011, 07:42 PM
C'mon man, even I could average 6 assists a game passing to 3 hall of famers with 30 minutes a game.

KnicksorBust
03-06-2011, 10:25 PM
Rondo would have been the same, if not better. I went to a few of his games his rookie season, and his speed, quickness, and creativity were evident then.

Statistically he did not change all that much per 48 from 06-07 to 07-08 in these categories.
Assists (8.0 -8.2)
Rebounds (7.6 -6.8)
Steals (3.3- 2.7)

His scoring improved from (13.1 to 17.0) along with his FG% (.418 to .492). This might be attributed to the addition of Garnett and Allen, but we didn't see a drop off the next season after Garnett's injury. In fact in the 08-09 post season he averaged near a triple double (16.0/9.7/9.8) with Garnett sidelined.

He has consistently averaged 3 steals per 48, actually posting 3.3 in his rookie season, a number that would lead the league this year.

The biggest knock on Rondo has been his mid range shooting, which has improved on a yearly basis. It could be argued that it would have come along faster if he had needed it more, but with the options he's had created no necessity.

Anyone who's spent time watching him has noticed his competitiveness and ability to raise his game in important situations, which is something that is missing in many "top tier" players (So far it appears as though LeBron brought only 47 minutes of talent to South Beach).

Of course his national recognition would have been lacking if Garnett and Allen hadn't been acquired and resulted in a championship. But that's a story that applies to plenty of players toiling away on bad teams (Brandon Jennings, Tyreke Evans, Kevin Love, Zach Randolph... etc.).

Let's cut to the chase of the real reason for this discussion. I assume that you're implying that with the addition of Amar'e and Carmelo, the other players around them will develop into better players, and at a faster pace.

Honestly, I don't see it happening that way. Yes the Knicks have improved with Amar'e this year, but that had obviously peaked which is why they were so interested in adding Carmelo. But despite his talent as a scorer, Carmelo doesn't appear to be the type of player that improves his teammates. A small sampling to be sure, but look how Denver has played with it's team of former teammates of these two, they don't seem to be dropping off in production.

If we accept the argument that Garnett, Allen and Pierce made Rondo a better player, we can also acknowledge that Garnett's intensity, Allen's work ethic and Pierce's tenacity had an impact on his development. To this point I don't see these qualities in Melo. He may develop into that type of leader, but he isn't there yet.

I hate to recycle the argument, but these two aren't what I would call complete players, and that will continue to haunt them until they do it on both ends of the court on a consistent basis. Yes, I watched them close out the Heat in that "statement game." So they shut down LeBron and Wade in a closely contested game. Who hasn't?

Gotta give this guy credit. Pretty solid for a first post with the exception of the tangent about my *hidden agenda.* :laugh: Everything doesn't always have to lead back to the source with these threads. Knicks fans, Heat fans, Lakers fans, we can talk about other teams too. I was talking with Sparky for 25 minutes the other day about the Timberwolves. If that's not proof I can talk about anything NBA related than I don't know what is. :)

Anyway, you bring up the toughest argument to dispute. His rate of production was very similar pre and post "Big 3."


You could say that about an great player in history. If kobe didn't get Shaq and then Gasol would he be where he is now? Isiah Thomas didn't have the bad boys would he be where he is now? If Reggie Miller had a legit second option in Indiana would he have a ring? If Magic Johnson didn't have James Worthy or Kareem Abdul Jabbar would he have been considered one of the greatest of all time? If Larry Bird didn't join the Celtics would he be where he is now? Point is... you can say that about any player in history. If you change any great players supporting cast then the outcome is most likely to change, because the variables change....

This is a completely different scenario. You are talking about all-time greats who had elite pedigrees. I'm talking about a 21st overall pick who came out of college averaging 5apg and had no jumpshot. Those guys tend to disappear in the blink of an eye. If you do any research at all on the success of draft slots you will see that once you get out of the top 5 it virtually becomes a crapshoot. Out of the lottery is even more bleak. For him to not just hang on but thrive on an elite team is anomaly. Manu Ginobili and David Lee... those guys are the exception not the rule. In only his 2nd year he went from a lottery team to a championship team without changing uniforms. His NBA Journey is unique and I think a lot his skills have been honed by playing against All-Stars every year since his 2nd season. The question that is virtually impossible to quantify is: by how much?

DiogenesofSC
03-07-2011, 10:50 AM
If Rondo were on another team, he would have been like every other PG in the league - trying to be a scorer first. He even said he did not work on his jump shot earlier in his career because his job was to get the ball to the other guys. Now he is the best passer in the league AND he is hitting his jump shots. I think his develpment would have been different, but I still think he would have arrived at the same destination.