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View Full Version : You're a new GM. Do you take the Clippers or Thunder?



Clippersfan86
03-03-2011, 10:58 PM
Ok so we both know how loaded these teams are with young talent. Thunder are obviously 3 years ahead development wise. Thunder have a better owner that you would be working for. So I'm going to list some factors to help you decide.

1. Salary cap situation
2. Youth
3. Owner you'll be working for
4. Future success
5. Attitude of players
6. Type of playstyle
7. Mix of players
8. Draft pick situation

Basically those are just some main examples. Reason I thought I'd make a thread is I think it's obvious when it comes to young talent/potential no franchise in the league can compare with the Thunder and Clippers. If I was a new GM and could choose any team it would be one of these 2. Think like a GM and pick your team!

I personally pick my own team but it's not because I'm a fan. I choose the Clippers because they are more balanced. They have far more defensive potential and size. Thunder are very much an uptempo and relatively small team even with Perkins. Clippers have a couple 7 footers and a very deep frontcourt.

Rosters as of right now (key players/rotiational players)

Thunder:

Westbrook/Maynor/Nate Robinson
Sefalosha/Harden
Durant/D Cook
Ibaka/Collison
Perkins/Aldrich


Clippers:

Mo Williams/Eric Bledsoe
Eric Gordon/Randy Foye
Ryan Gomes/Al Faroq Aminu
Blake Griffin/Craig Smith
Chris Kaman/DeAndre Jordan


I want to say I mean no disrespect to other fans. I just feel the Clippers and Thunder have the most loaded teams when it comes to young talent.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
03-03-2011, 10:59 PM
Definitely the Thunder.

Bruno
03-03-2011, 11:00 PM
The Thunder. If not just for the sole reason that KD hasn't had a major knee injury thus far. Blake is fantastic, but does that knee hold up?

Swashcuff
03-03-2011, 11:01 PM
The Thunder quite easily beyond a shadow of a doubt.

bovice163
03-03-2011, 11:02 PM
Thunder.

Giannis94
03-03-2011, 11:06 PM
the bucks. we got the ersanator

RZZZA
03-03-2011, 11:07 PM
I may be crazy, but clippers. I like eric gordon that much. They got a nice young core over there and with kaman now, that team is only getting better.

Need a new coach though

Gators123
03-03-2011, 11:08 PM
Thunder

Clippersfan86
03-03-2011, 11:10 PM
I didn't expect a sweep on this question. I personally choose the Clips but not because I'm a fan. Mainly because even with Perkins the Thunder are a small team. Clippers have tons of interior scoring, interior defense, rebounding and a couple 7 footers, one who was an all star last year. I believe almost all contenders need good size in this league. Thunder are a fastbreak team who can't play in the half court too well. I take the team that can run the break and slow it down for half court sets and dump the ball to multiple bigmen capable of scoring.

Kevj77
03-03-2011, 11:10 PM
Donald Sterling owns the Clippers, so Thunder.

Clippersfan86
03-03-2011, 11:12 PM
Donald Sterling owns the Clippers, so Thunder.

Well at least you gave a logical reason. I'd be worried about working for him too lol.

tdunk21
03-03-2011, 11:14 PM
thunder and sam presti....no brainer

blastmasta26
03-03-2011, 11:15 PM
I like the Thunder more. Their rotation overall is better, LAC are owned by Donald Sterling, Griffin is at a higher risk of injuries than most players (not a major factor but still something to consider), they made a good push in the playoffs without Perkins last year and look better now, and they still have the youth. Clips have a bright future, but I would still take OKC.

papipapsmanny
03-03-2011, 11:16 PM
Thunder without any hesitations, they are much better than the clippers

Swashcuff
03-03-2011, 11:17 PM
I didn't expect a sweep on this question. I personally choose the Clips but not because I'm a fan. Mainly because even with Perkins the Thunder are a small team. Clippers have tons of interior scoring, interior defense, rebounding and a couple 7 footers, one who was an all star last year. I believe almost all contenders need good size in this league. Thunder are a fastbreak team who can't play in the half court too well. I take the team that can run the break and slow it down for half court sets and dump the ball to multiple bigmen capable of scoring.

I can't blame you for your reasoning but as of right now legit inside scorer or not the Thunder have a much better and much more complete team than the Clippers. I mean if they are already considered contenders despite the fact that they are one of the youngest teams in the league what will happen when they get the necessary playoff experience?

Chacarron
03-03-2011, 11:17 PM
Gotta take the Thunder.

Swashcuff
03-03-2011, 11:17 PM
thunder and sam presti....no brainer

Technically Presti won't be a factor because the question asked if you were the GM.

Clippersfan86
03-03-2011, 11:20 PM
I can't blame you for your reasoning but as of right now legit inside scorer or not the Thunder have a much better and much more complete team than the Clippers. I mean if they are already considered contenders despite the fact that they are one of the youngest teams in the league what will happen when they get the necessary playoff experience?

Very valid, true point. Thing is this is the first year for this Clippers core and the 4th for the Thunder. I know the Thunder are ahead 3-4 seasons development wise. I just meant who do you take to build a title contender given the roster make up, draft picks and talent.

PurpleJesus
03-03-2011, 11:20 PM
i dont even know if the clippers would be the second choice after the thunder...

Clippersfan86
03-03-2011, 11:21 PM
Technically Presti won't be a factor because the question asked if you were the GM.

LOL yea when I saw him post that I totally :facepalm:.

tdunk21
03-03-2011, 11:22 PM
Technically Presti won't be a factor because the question asked if you were the GM.

lol...missed it...

then he shall be president of bball operations

xabial
03-03-2011, 11:22 PM
Add #9. Location

LA is a very enticing option over Oklahoma City but i would still take OKC because KD/Westy are Beasts.

cubs0707
03-03-2011, 11:23 PM
i think the young talent is almost equal
so id pick the clips because i think in la you would be able to get big name free agents over okc

Clippersfan86
03-03-2011, 11:24 PM
i dont even know if the clippers would be the second choice after the thunder...

Mo Williams 28 years old, Eric Bledsoe 21 years old, Eric Gordon just turned 22, Blake Griffin 21 years old, Al Faroq Aminu 20 years old, Kaman 28 years old... DeAndre Jordan 22 years old. That's just the main pieces.

hotpotato1092
03-03-2011, 11:25 PM
The Clippers just because of my ego. I wouldn't want a team that can already win a title as is, but the Clippers would be a challenge, especially without their lotto pick this year. They have a ton of young talent, but they need work.

Clippersfan86
03-03-2011, 11:26 PM
Add #9. Location

LA is a very enticing option over Oklahoma City but i would still take OKC because KD/Westy are Beasts.

Yea good point! Also coaches and practice facilities. Clippers have the best, newest and highest tech practice facility.

el_primo_nano
03-03-2011, 11:26 PM
Thunder without a doubt. The torch will soon be passed down to Durant, and along with Westbrook this team can only get better

Swashcuff
03-03-2011, 11:26 PM
Very valid, true point. Thing is this is the first year for this Clippers core and the 4th for the Thunder. I know the Thunder are ahead 3-4 seasons development wise. I just meant who do you take to build a title contender given the roster make up, draft picks and talent.

This is in all honesty the first year of the 2nd year of their core actually. Harden and Ibaka came last season and they both are figured to be key contributors for a long long time. Westbrook is in his 3rd season and KD is in his 4th. The only real new addition to the Clippers core going forward is Blake (the MOST important part).

Griffin still has a lot to prove however before I chose his team over KD's in such a scenario.

Swashcuff
03-03-2011, 11:27 PM
Mo Williams 28 years old, Eric Bledsoe 21 years old, Eric Gordon just turned 22, Blake Griffin 21 years old, Al Faroq Aminu 20 years old, Kaman 28 years old... DeAndre Jordan 22 years old. That's just the main pieces.

Exclude Mo Williams, he isn't figured to be there for very long and in all honesty he's going to hurt more than help the growth of the Clippers.

papipapsmanny
03-03-2011, 11:30 PM
KD>>Durant

and unless there is an injury it will always be that way

KD you could argue is the best player in the league

Clippersfan86
03-03-2011, 11:31 PM
Exclude Mo Williams, he isn't figured to be there for very long and in all honesty he's going to hurt more than help the growth of the Clippers.

So far he's doing very well and I honestly think he's a good 3rd option, veteran for our guys to be around.

tredigs
03-03-2011, 11:31 PM
I didn't expect a sweep on this question. I personally choose the Clips but not because I'm a fan. Mainly because even with Perkins the Thunder are a small team. Clippers have tons of interior scoring, interior defense, rebounding and a couple 7 footers, one who was an all star last year. I believe almost all contenders need good size in this league. Thunder are a fastbreak team who can't play in the half court too well. I take the team that can run the break and slow it down for half court sets and dump the ball to multiple bigmen capable of scoring.

"You didn't choose the Clippers because you're a fan", says - ClipperFan.


Haha, cognitive dissonance at its best ladies and gets!

I'm a fan of the Clippers and what they've got there, but it's not even CLOSE dude.

Swashcuff
03-03-2011, 11:31 PM
KD>>Durant

and unless there is an injury it will always be that way

KD you could argue is the best player in the league

WOW!!! :speechless:

Yes folks Kevin Durant is that good. So good he's even better than himself :laugh:

tdunk21
03-03-2011, 11:32 PM
OP...u might wanna add nuggets to the discussion

Swashcuff
03-03-2011, 11:33 PM
So far he's doing very well and I honestly think he's a good 3rd option, veteran for our guys to be around.

Give it time bro. You guys aren't going anywhere with Mo at the helm.

xabial
03-03-2011, 11:33 PM
WOW!!! :speechless:

Yes folks Kevin Durant is that good. So good he's even better than himself :laugh:

No i think he meant

K.D. (Kevin Durantala) >> Durant

I like Durantula better then Durant too.

Clippersfan86
03-03-2011, 11:33 PM
"You didn't choose the Clippers because you're a fan", says - ClipperFan.


Haha, cognitive dissonance at its best ladies and gets!

I'm a fan of the Clippers and what they've got there, but it's not even CLOSE dude.

You've never heard of an unbiased opinion? My opinion regarding this is me taking a step back and looking at this from a logical perspective. If you read my postings on forums I use a lot.. you'll see I'm a very unbiased guy for the most part. I disagree with you that when measuring young talent and potential that this isn't even close.

Swashcuff
03-03-2011, 11:34 PM
OP...u might wanna add nuggets to the discussion

Why? They don't have a legit #1 nor #2 option on that team. They aren't figured to do much damage come playoff time with that system.

Clippersfan86
03-03-2011, 11:34 PM
Give it time bro. You guys aren't going anywhere with Mo at the helm.

Bledsoe has shown great flashes. He's not ready to start though.

Swashcuff
03-03-2011, 11:34 PM
No i think he meant

K.D. (Kevin Durantala) >> Durant

I like Durantula better then Durant too.

O my bad ;)

Clippersfan86
03-03-2011, 11:36 PM
OP...u might wanna add nuggets to the discussion

Like poster below said... Nuggets don't have 2 clearly defined franchise players/ all stars like the Thunder and Nuggets. They more have a bunch of pure scorers and guys that can catch fire. I don't think the Nuggets have anyone close to a franchise player right now. Wilson Chandler? Gallo? JR Smith? Nene? Ty Lawson? Raymond Felton?

Clippersfan86
03-03-2011, 11:39 PM
Guys another thing we can't forget. Thunder will not have another lottery pick for years. Clippers have the Wolves 1st rounder in 2012 next year and it's unprotected. Meaning in the super deep 2012 draft.... we are going to add another piece of young talent.

xabial
03-03-2011, 11:40 PM
Why? They don't have a legit #1 nor #2 option on that team. They aren't figured to do much damage come playoff time with that system.

Some people are actually arguing that their a better team without Carmelo getting Half of the Knicks Team.

Since the trade Nuggets are 4-1, and Knicks 3-2. Its very early, but the Nuggets, are a very Deep team, But Chandler leaves this year since he's an FA, Gallinari Next year, Felton Next year. J.R. Smith this year. Personally i think that team is the biggest mystery in the NBA, they could have a potential meltdown but as of right now the Carmelo trade looks A+.

Their Young but their not locked up. I would Take the Thunder with Kevin Durant Locked in after the Five year contract extension, and Russel Westbrook who will stay feeling very comfortable with the team as the Team's #2 Scoring Option, and distributor and Kevin Durant's Side-kick. Add In Perkins Extension, thats a very potential dangerous team, and a fun one to GM. (I would take the credit For building a great Team around KD/Westy :D)

Theres a reason thhe Nuggets are one of the top teams when it comes to salary cap space. I dont want a rosterr built around Nene Some people think he actually leaves via FA and exercise his opt out clause. i would much rather prefer a Bonafide Star who can lead his Team into the playoffs in Durant, and a Top-1-5 Player in the NBA right now.

The BodyGuard
03-03-2011, 11:42 PM
Okc Thunder

When Perkins get back, They are the team to beat

Clippersfan86
03-03-2011, 11:43 PM
Some people are actually arguing that their a better team without Carmelo getting Half of the Knicks Team.

Since the trade Nuggets are 4-1, and Knicks 3-2. Its very early, but the Nuggets, are a very Deep team, But Chandler leaves this year since he's an FA, Gallinari Next year, Felton Next year. J.R. Smith this year.

Their Young but their not locked up. I would Take the Thunder with Kevin Durant Locked in after the Five year contract extension, and Russel Westbrook who will stay feeling very comfortable with the team as the Team's #2 Scoring Option, and distributor and Kevin Durant's Side-kick. Add In Perkins Extension, thats a very potential dangerous team, and a fun one to GM. (I would take the credit For building a great Team around KD :D)

Theres a reason thhe Nuggets are one of the top teams when it comes to salary cap space. I dont want a rosterr built around Nene, i would much rathher prefer a Bonidide Star who can lead his Team intoo the playoffs in Durant.

I knew they would get better the day of the trade. I even said NY actually were the ones who got robbed. Problem is... they are in the Phoenix Suns mold. Tons of guys who love to run and bomb 3's. Any of them can drop 20 points on you... but they lack the size, experience and defensive stoppers to actually win when it counts. Fun to watch though. Like you mentioned.. the issue also is a couple of them will probably walk for fat paychecks over the next couple season.

Swashcuff
03-03-2011, 11:45 PM
Guys another thing we can't forget. Thunder will not have another lottery pick for years. Clippers have the Wolves 1st rounder in 2012 next year and it's unprotected. Meaning in the super deep 2012 draft.... we are going to add another piece of young talent.

Dude that pick could very well be a bust. You can't go on stuff we haven't seen thus far. We can only go with what he know for a FACT. Kevin Durant is a bonafied SUPERSTAR and is on his way to shattering a ton of scoring records and maybe grabbing a few MVPs along the way. He already has a legit #2 option in Russel Westbrook. We know what the Thunder have.

We don't know what that pick could be. Don't even bank on it. The Thunder are set the Clippers are at least 2 years and a starting PG (maybe Bledsoe can develop into a quality one) and a starting SF (maybe Aminu can develop also) a system and a better coach (a Doug Collins/Nate McMillan type) away from being set.

Clippersfan86
03-03-2011, 11:51 PM
Dude that pick could very well be a bust. You can't go on stuff we haven't seen thus far. We can only go with what he know for a FACT. Kevin Durant is a bonafied SUPERSTAR and is on his way to shattering a ton of scoring records and maybe grabbing a few MVPs along the way. He already has a legit #2 option in Russel Westbrook. We know what the Thunder have.

We don't know what that pick could be. Don't even bank on it. The Thunder are set the Clippers are at least 2 years and a starting PG (maybe Bledsoe can develop into a quality one) and a starting SF (maybe Aminu can develop also) a system and a better coach (a Doug Collins/Nate McMillan type) away from being set.

You really think there is a large gap between Durant/Westbrook and Blake/Gordon??

Blake is a dominant rebounder, a great passer and a 23 ppg scorer. I'm taking him over Durant who's a one dimensional player for the most part. Sure Durant is elite when it comes to scoring... but what else does he do? Rebound? Not really. Pass? No. Play defense? No.

Eric Gordon.... not only scores more than Westbrook at 24+ ppg but he's an excellent defender who blows Westbrook away defensively. You can make a great case that Blake and Eric Gordon are equal to Durant and Westbrook as it stands. So let's take away the 2012 pick then if you want and forget that it exists. Current talent.... let's not make it sound like the Clippers aren't loaded. Look at the teams we have beaten this year.. and how we have knocked 5 teams off 7+ game win streaks.

xabial
03-03-2011, 11:54 PM
Guys another thing we can't forget. Thunder will not have another lottery pick for years. Clippers have the Wolves 1st rounder in 2012 next year and it's unprotected. Meaning in the super deep 2012 draft.... we are going to add another piece of young talent.


Thunder dont need anymore picks, Their way past that stage. Their Set Building through the drafts, Drafting Kevin Durant #2 Overall in the 2007 Green #5 overall in the 2007 Draft(From Trading Ray Allen) , Russel Westbrook #4 Overall in the 2008 Draft, James Harden #3 Overall in the 2009 NBA draft, and they made the playoffs in the West with 50+ wins in 2010 with the starting Line-up of PG Russel Westbrok SG James harden SF Kevin Durant PF Jeff Green C (Who cares it was their weakest position)


They traded Jeff Green, Nenad Krstic, and a 2012 Thunder pick for C Kenrick Perkins A Trade most people made fun of Boston for Doing, and in a separate trade Traded for C Nazr Mouhammed and Boom!, Very good YOUNG Team thats actualy GOOD, that i would want to GM.

They addressed their biggest weakness in the Center Position, by acquiring Centers Kendrick Perkins and Nazr Mohammed through trades.

An Example of how a Team can be Built through the Draft. They Draft wisely, and make wise Trades. Theres a reason Kevin Durant didnt bolt for a Bigger Market, or another team, its because Thudner made him feel at home with a Great Supporting Cast, Great Front Office, and Maybe the most under-rated aspect of it all Great Fans for a "Small-Market" Team.

Swashcuff
03-03-2011, 11:58 PM
You really think there is a large gap between Durant/Westbrook and Blake/Gordon??

Blake is a dominant rebounder, a great passer and a 23 ppg scorer. I'm taking him over Durant who's a one dimensional player for the most part. Sure Durant is elite when it comes to scoring... but what else does he do? Rebound? Not really. Pass? No. Play defense? No.

Eric Gordon.... not only scores more than Westbrook at 24+ ppg but he's an excellent defender who blows Westbrook away defensively. You can make a great case that Blake and Eric Gordon are equal to Durant and Westbrook as it stands. So let's take away the 2012 pick then if you want and forget that it exists. Current talent.... let's not make it sound like the Clippers aren't loaded. Look at the teams we have beaten this year.. and how we have knocked 5 teams off 7+ game win streaks.

Now your utter homerism is kicking in. I shall rest my case here. When you are ready to be logical let me know but you are starting to overdo it now.

I really can't see any reason debating with you any more. Did you seriously say Eric Gordon blows Russell Westbrook away defensively? Did you seriously just call Kevin Durant one sided.

I rest my case makes no sense debating with someone who's making no sense while being an extreme homer.

Clippersfan86
03-03-2011, 11:58 PM
Blake Griffin: 22.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 3.6 apg on 51 percent shooting.
Eric Gordon: 24.1 ppg, 4.5 apg, 3.2 rpg, 1.2 spg on 47 percent shooting from the field and 36 percent from deep.

Kevin Durant: 28.4 ppg, 7 rpg, 2.8 apg 1 spg, 1 bpg on 46.5 percent shooting from field and 33.7 from deep.
Russell Westbrook: 22 ppg, 8.4 apg, 4.8 rpg, 1.8 spg on 43.6 percent shooting from field and 30 percent from deep.

When the numbers are laid out you'll see it's not some crazy gap in franchise players. Eric Gordon is the best shooter and the best defender of this group by a good distance.

xabial
03-04-2011, 12:00 AM
I knew they would get better the day of the trade. I even said NY actually were the ones who got robbed. Problem is... they are in the Phoenix Suns mold. Tons of guys who love to run and bomb 3's. Any of them can drop 20 points on you... but they lack the size, experience and defensive stoppers to actually win when it counts. Fun to watch though. Like you mentioned.. the issue also is a couple of them will probably walk for fat paychecks over the next couple season.

Bingo which is why i would take Thunder, Clippers, then nuggets if i had to order them.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 12:01 AM
Now your utter homerism is kicking in. I shall rest my case here. When you are ready to be logical let me know but you are starting to overdo it now.

I really can't see any reason debating with you any more. Did you seriously say Eric Gordon blows Russell Westbrook away defensively? Did you seriously just call Kevin Durant one sided.

I rest my case makes no sense debating with someone who's making no sense while being an extreme homer.

It's universally known that Westbrook is a defensive liability and that Eric Gordon is a very good defender dude. All you have to do is watch both teams play. Go look at the players Eric Gordon has locked up? Monta Ellis, Kevin Martin... Kobe... Manu.. Joe Johnson. Eric has gotten the best of all of them with his defense this season. The only guy who he couldn't guard was Wade... and that's because they are physical clones. Both players dropped 30+ when they matched up.

You're talking about homerism and logic.. but if you don't know Westbrook is a poor defender I can't help you. Even Thunder fans will readily acknowledge he's a defensive liability. Go look at Kevin Martin's boxscore from last night with Eric Gordon guarding him.

xabial
03-04-2011, 12:04 AM
It's universally known that Westbrook is a defensive liability and that Eric Gordon is a very good defender dude. All you have to do is watch both teams play. Go look at the players Eric Gordon has locked up? Monta Ellis, Kevin Martin... Kobe... Manu.. Joe Johnson. Eric has gotten the best of all of them with his defense this season. The only guy who he couldn't guard was Wade... and that's because they are physical clones. Both players dropped 30+ when they matched up.

You're talking about homerism and logic.. but if you don't know Westbrook is a poor defender I can't help you. Even Thunder fans will readily acknowledge he's a defensive liability. Go look at Kevin Martin's boxscore from last night with Eric Gordon guarding him.

I dont know about Gordon i would think he's under-sized for the Shooting guard position at 6-3 which is the height of A lot of PG's which makes him a liability on defense, and i know for a fact that One of WEstbrook's biggest strengths is his defense. He's arguably the best athletic PG in the NBA.

Swashcuff
03-04-2011, 12:05 AM
It's universally known that Westbrook is a defensive liability and that Eric Gordon is a very good defender dude. All you have to do is watch both teams play. Go look at the players Eric Gordon has locked up? Monta Ellis, Kevin Martin... Kobe... Manu.. Joe Johnson. Eric has gotten the best of all of them with his defense this season. The only guy who he couldn't guard was Wade... and that's because they are physical clones. Both players dropped 30+ when they matched up.

You're talking about homerism and logic.. but if you don't know Westbrook is a poor defender I can't help you. Even Thunder fans will readily acknowledge he's a defensive liability. Go look at Kevin Martin's boxscore from last night with Eric Gordon guarding him.

:facepalm:

Swashcuff
03-04-2011, 12:05 AM
Blake Griffin: 22.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 3.6 apg on 51 percent shooting.
Eric Gordon: 24.1 ppg, 4.5 apg, 3.2 rpg, 1.2 spg on 47 percent shooting from the field and 36 percent from deep.

Kevin Durant: 28.4 ppg, 7 rpg, 2.8 apg 1 spg, 1 bpg on 46.5 percent shooting from field and 33.7 from deep.
Russell Westbrook: 22 ppg, 8.4 apg, 4.8 rpg, 1.8 spg on 43.6 percent shooting from field and 30 percent from deep.

When the numbers are laid out you'll see it's not some crazy gap in franchise players. Eric Gordon is the best shooter and the best defender of this group by a good distance.

I have a question

Are you the same clippers fan from real.gm?

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 12:06 AM
I have a question

Are you the same clippers fan from real.gm?

Is that a forum? If so.. nope. Never signed up for that one.

Swashcuff
03-04-2011, 12:08 AM
Is that a forum? If so.. nope. Never signed up for that one.

O you remind me of him. The worst poster in that forum's history in all honesty.

You don't understand statistics. Until you do you are going to keep coming here and spewing utter nonsense.

blastmasta26
03-04-2011, 12:13 AM
Blake Griffin: 22.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 3.6 apg on 51 percent shooting.
Eric Gordon: 24.1 ppg, 4.5 apg, 3.2 rpg, 1.2 spg on 47 percent shooting from the field and 36 percent from deep.

Kevin Durant: 28.4 ppg, 7 rpg, 2.8 apg 1 spg, 1 bpg on 46.5 percent shooting from field and 33.7 from deep.
Russell Westbrook: 22 ppg, 8.4 apg, 4.8 rpg, 1.8 spg on 43.6 percent shooting from field and 30 percent from deep.

When the numbers are laid out you'll see it's not some crazy gap in franchise players. Eric Gordon is the best shooter and the best defender of this group by a good distance.
Steals are not good determining factors for defensive ability, Westbrook is a better defender than Gordon no doubt, and a better player as well. Durant is miles ahead of Blake Griffin also. You can't compare the pairs at all. The only advantage you got right was Gordon's shooting, but even that is rivaled by Durant's shooting ability.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 12:15 AM
I dont know about Gordon i would think he's under-sized for the Shooting guard position at 6-3 which is the height of A lot of PG's which makes him a liability on defense, and i know for a fact that One of WEstbrook's biggest strengths is his defense. He's arguably the best athletic PG in the NBA.

Actually I'll admit. I'm not giving Westbrook his due on defense. I think he's solid and pesky in the passing lanes. I just have watched him constantly get schooled by everyone from Baron Davis to D Rose... to Nash. It's like saying Iverson is a great defender for example. If a great defender is keeping up with your man and getting steals in the passing lanes than Westbrook is a fantastic one with active hands. If we are talking about getting defensive stops.. and being able to guard most guards.. definitely not.

Eric Gordon always guards the best wing player and usually gets the best of him. He held Manu to 25 percent one game.. and Kevin Martin to 20 percent shooting last night. He guards Kobe as well as anyone I've seen. Kobe still gets his.. but Eric is physical with him all game and sticks to him like glue.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 12:20 AM
Steals are not good determining factors for defensive ability, Westbrook is a better defender than Gordon no doubt, and a better player as well. Durant is miles ahead of Blake Griffin also. You can't compare the pairs at all. The only advantage you got right was Gordon's shooting, but even that is rivaled by Durant's shooting ability.

I never said steals determined anything. If they did Westbrook would be the best of this bunch defensively. I'm telling from experience watching. Thunder are the 2nd team I follow... and I've watched enough of Eric and Russell to tell you with confidence that Eric Gordon is a better defender in my opinion. As for better player.. I never said Eric was worse or better. I said.. let's not make it seem like it's a huge gap. Durant is miles ahead how? Durant's PER is 1 point higher than Blake's. Obviously the gap isn't that big when it comes to stats and efficiency. Also.. the fact that a rookie is anywhere near the same tier as a 4th year franchise player.. should speak volumes for Blake.

Raph12
03-04-2011, 12:21 AM
Thunder, no doubt...

Swashcuff
03-04-2011, 12:22 AM
I never said steals determined anything. If they did Westbrook would be the best of this bunch defensively. I'm telling from experience watching. Thunder are the 2nd team I follow... and I've watched enough of Eric and Russell to tell you with confidence that Eric Gordon is a better defender in my opinion. As for better player.. I never said Eric was worse or better. I said.. let's not make it seem like it's a huge gap. Durant is miles ahead how? Durant's PER is 1 point higher than Blake's. Obviously the gap isn't that big when it comes to stats and efficiency. Also.. the fact that a rookie is anywhere near the same tier as a 4th year franchise player.. should speak volumes for Blake.

WTF are you watching?

Could you please start a thread entitled. Is Russell Westbrook a good defender? Because apparently you have serious eye problems.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 12:25 AM
I just asked 2 buddies who are writers for Hoopsworld...for their opinion on this... just to get some perspective and both had a similar answer. Eric Gordon better on the ball defender, can guard more positions. Russell Westbrook better off the ball defender (passing lanes, fighting through screens etc) and racks up more blocks and steals. "Eric Gordon is the more fundamentally sound player and defender" is a quote from Eric from Hoopsworld.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 12:26 AM
WTF are you watching?

Could you please start a thread entitled. Is Russell Westbrook a good defender? Because apparently you have serious eye problems.

I already said up above I didn't give him enough credit.. but he's still not a better defender than Gordon IMO.

Swashcuff
03-04-2011, 12:28 AM
I just asked 2 buddies who are writers for Hoopsworld...for their opinion on this... just to get some perspective and both had a similar answer. Eric Gordon better on the ball defender, can guard more positions. Russell Westbrook better off the ball defender (passing lanes, fighting through screens etc) and racks up more blocks and steals.

Did anyone say Gordon wasn't better?

You said and I quote


It's universally known that Westbrook is a defensive liability and that Eric Gordon is a very good defender dude

Oh and your "buddies" they deserve to be fired with immediate effect.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 12:31 AM
Did anyone say Gordon wasn't better?

You said and I quote



Oh and your "buddies" they deserve to be fired with immediate effect.

You're seeing red huh? I already said I was incorrect for not giving Russell enough credit.

Swashcuff
03-04-2011, 12:32 AM
I just asked 2 buddies who are writers for Hoopsworld...for their opinion on this... just to get some perspective and both had a similar answer. Eric Gordon better on the ball defender, can guard more positions. Russell Westbrook better off the ball defender (passing lanes, fighting through screens etc) and racks up more blocks and steals. "Eric Gordon is the more fundamentally sound player and defender" is a quote from Eric from Hoopsworld.

Could you please please please for the love of God stop with the lying. :facepalm:

Swashcuff
03-04-2011, 12:33 AM
You're seeing red huh? I already said I was incorrect for not giving Russell enough credit.

The only reason you said you were incorrect because you realise you made a misinformed comment and everyone got down your back for it. If you were telling the truth about watching the Thunder that much you would not have made such an asinine statement in the first place.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 12:40 AM
The only reason you said you were incorrect because you realise you made a misinformed comment and everyone got down your back for it. If you were telling the truth about watching the Thunder that much you would not have made such an asinine statement in the first place.

Ever hear of a word called perception? In this thread I can fault you for the same things you're accusing me of.. which is basically not knowing my facts. You've made some pretty questionable claims regarding the Clippers in this thread yourself. As a 13 year fan who rarely misses a game either in person or on my bigscreen I don't think you know my team better than I do. I've watched the Thunder play a lot the last 2 seasons. Just because I perceive Gordon as a better defender doesn't mean it's true or untrue. It's subjective. What I define as good defense may be different than you. I think racking up blocks and steals.. and playing the passing lanes isn't as valuable as being able to guard any guard in the league and sticking to anyone. Unlike Westbrook... I can't think of another guard in the league capable of bullying the 225 pound Eric Gordon. He's VERY strong. I've seen him out muscle just about every guard in the league.

This goes back to Allen Iverson example. Was he a great defender? Half of the people you ask this question will say yes.... half no. He racked up steals... and had active hands but could he really stop anyone? Same idea. I haven't seen Westbrook shut down the best guards multiple times like I have Eric Gordon.

Swashcuff
03-04-2011, 12:47 AM
Ever hear of a word called perception? In this thread I can fault you for the same things you're accusing me of.. which is basically not knowing my facts. You've made some pretty questionable claims regarding the Clippers in this thread yourself. As a 13 year fan who rarely misses a game either in person or on my bigscreen I don't think you know my team better than I do. I've watched the Thunder play a lot the last 2 seasons. Just because I perceive Gordon as a better defender doesn't mean it's true or untrue. It's subjective. What I define as good defense may be different than you. I think racking up blocks and steals.. and playing the passing lanes isn't as valuable as being able to guard any guard in the league and sticking to anyone. Unlike Westbrook... I can't think of another guard in the league capable of bullying the 225 pound Eric Gordon. He's VERY strong. I've seen him out muscle just about every guard in the league.

This goes back to Allen Iverson example. Was he a great defender? Half of the people you ask this question will say yes.... half no. He racked up steals... and had active hands but could he really stop anyone? Same idea. I haven't seen Westbrook shut down the best guards multiple times like I have Eric Gordon.

You have proven to me that you lack basic basketball understanding and intellect. I tried with you but to no avail. Smell you later dude.

b@llhog24
03-04-2011, 01:27 AM
as a team i would pick the clips. it would make me look like i'm really good because they need more moves than the thunder imo. thus job security :D

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 01:40 AM
You have proven to me that you lack basic basketball understanding and intellect. I tried with you but to no avail. Smell you later dude.

You never tried to level with me or reason, you're just done saying what you have to say and instead of trying to see my POV you're *****ing out. Here you go. BTW guess who was called the best shooter and best defender by teammates and coach K on team USA? ERIC MOTHA FU**IN GORDON. Here is a video example. Let me know if you find a video of Westbrook playing D like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG-9sDHfqgw

Iggz53
03-04-2011, 01:45 AM
Easily the Thunder. If Blake Griffin showed any capabilities or willingness on defense, I may think about it but right now, it would be a pretty easy choice for me.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 01:46 AM
There here are 2 VERY clutch defensive plays... Utah one includes his game tying dunk to send game into OT. If I have 1 guard I need to get a stop with the game on the line.. Eric Gordon> Westbrook.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dxrv8sNeIE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vho7HNgqRsQ

In the second video.. Pietrus has KILLED us with 15 points in the 4th quarter including making 4-4 on three pointers. I'm 90 percent sure if Eric had not stripped this.. it would of been a 3 pointer made.

Iggz53
03-04-2011, 01:53 AM
There here are 2 VERY clutch defensive plays... Utah one includes his game tying dunk to send game into OT. If I have 1 guard I need to get a stop with the game on the line.. Eric Gordon> Westbrook.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dxrv8sNeIE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vho7HNgqRsQ

In the second video.. Pietrus has KILLED us with 15 points in the 4th quarter including making 4-4 on three pointers. I'm 90 percent sure if Eric had not stripped this.. it would of been a 3 pointer made.

I like Eric Gordon. I was only referring to Griffin on the defensive end. Big guys have to defend in this league to contend.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 01:58 AM
I like Eric Gordon. I was only referring to Griffin on the defensive end. Big guys have to defend in this league to contend.

I agree. I was posting those for guy above who thinks Westbrook is a better defender than Eric Gordon. I know Blake is a huge liability on D because he doesn't even contest usually. Which baffles me because when he DOES contest shots.. assuming it's not a foul.. it either alters someone's shot.. or he blocks it because of his leaping ability. I think the main issue is refs call him for every little bump on a player in the air or shooting. Once he's a vet by next year maybe and he gets more whistles.. he will probably be more aggressive on D.

Badluck33
03-04-2011, 01:58 AM
Clippers. Only if I can personally put VDN infront of a firing squad.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 02:01 AM
Clippers. Only if I can personally put VDN infront of a firing squad.

VDN and Sterling on firing squad.

MickeyMgl
03-04-2011, 02:01 AM
I would never work for Donald Sterling if given a reasonable alternative, and any other job in the NBA is a reasonable alternative. I kind of believe that's been the attitude of every employee in the Clipper organization for the past two or three decades - head coaches, players, GMs, etc.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 02:02 AM
I would never work for Donald Sterling if given a reasonable alternative, and any other job in the NBA is a reasonable alternative. I kind of believe that's been the attitude of every employee in the Clipper organization for the past two or three decades - head coaches, players, GMs, etc.

Maybe me letting the Owner be weighed into this makes it more complicated huh? I know it's more realistic though.

MickeyMgl
03-04-2011, 02:05 AM
Technically Presti won't be a factor because the question asked if you were the GM.

How is that not going to be a factor if that's the person who will be your boss?

CityofChaos
03-04-2011, 02:06 AM
The Thunder. The Clippers are still a BAD team. They are entertaining to watch because of Blake Griffin and thats it. Maybe in a few years if Sterling is Smart enough to keep their young players together just like OKC was capable of doing then heck, who knows...I just wouldn't be comfortable with the fact that my boss sends fat prostitutes to watch my players shower...

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 02:16 AM
The Thunder. The Clippers are still a BAD team. They are entertaining to watch because of Blake Griffin and thats it. Maybe in a few years if Sterling is Smart enough to keep their young players together just like OKC was capable of doing then heck, who knows...I just wouldn't be comfortable with the fact that my boss sends fat prostitutes to watch my players shower...

"Look at all those beautiful black bodies" :p

infamous46
03-04-2011, 02:17 AM
it is close i think the Clippers will be in the playoffs next year and i havent seen many of their games so i dont understand y they r not in the playoffs this year they have alot of talent they must be just young. but id have to take the Thunder tho i think they have a great team Durant is a top 5 player and i think they will win a championship within the next 3 years after this season and working together i think they will be very tough to face next year, but i hope Bledsoe stays more consistent and proves he is capable of taking over the starting spot next year and the Clippers will be very good

stripersniper77
03-04-2011, 02:48 AM
What's the clipper's record again? That's what i thought. The Thunder, by a mile.

bklynny67
03-04-2011, 03:25 AM
what kinda question is this? anyone who doesnt say Thunder is ******** and needs to watch some more basketball.

What?
03-04-2011, 03:30 AM
tough choice I think I would take the Clippers because I would be in a better position to improve my team. alot of cap space and good young players+high draft picks is any gms dream. If am the thunders GM can't do much more then bank on all my young players turning into good players or trying to pull out a unbelievable trade since cap space wise not much you can do.

Also clippers are one of very few teams that have the pieces and cap space to get Dwight Howard or CP3 so thats a huge plus

levignjw
03-04-2011, 04:11 AM
OKC and it's not close.

Ty Fast
03-04-2011, 04:27 AM
the clippers do have a bunch of cap space

CowboysKB24
03-04-2011, 04:40 AM
Thunder no question.

Clippers have a lot of potential. This thread may not be so lop-sided in a few years.

JRisdabest
03-04-2011, 04:44 AM
Blake griffin..nuff said

kurivaimu
03-04-2011, 05:06 AM
Most definately the Thunder

Confusious
03-04-2011, 06:02 AM
Thunder, far and away. My goodness they're heading in a good direction, and fast.

Clippers aren't going anywhere until Griffin learns how to play ball, which might take some time.

alencp3
03-04-2011, 06:49 AM
Clippers because they have GOAT PF in the making .

TheDiggler
03-04-2011, 07:47 AM
I'd pick the one that pays me the most ...

Mplsman
03-04-2011, 07:52 AM
I like Durant-Westbrook better than Griffin-Gordon. I'm going with the Thunder.

sweetd
03-04-2011, 11:07 AM
The Thunder KD and Westbrook says it all. Plus the Clippers are cursed and well Donald Sterling is a deal breaker.

Young and Stupid
03-04-2011, 11:26 AM
I didn't read through the whole thread, but I got a lot of what I expected. The easy choice is the Thunder, but if you look deeper I think the right choice is the Clippers. Now, that's if this question is in a vacuum. If I have to play GM with the cheap, racist, probably insane, Donald Sterling looming in the darkness then I'm probably going to take the Thunder. However -- Sterling aside -- the Clippers have a great situation. They have plenty of cap-space to pick up an impact free-agent in 2012, they have a great market (obviously they play second-fiddle to the Lakers) and they have, not only Blake Griffin, but a cast of other young promising players. Not to mention, they have multiple first-round picks that will allow them to pile more talent on top of what they already have and they have a very good asset in Kaman's expiring contract. In fact, I'd argue that they resemble what the Thunder looked like in 2009, except they play in a better market and they may actually have a higher upside than the Thunder.

All that aside, for me it's a pretty easy choice -- I'm taking the Clippers as long as I don't have to deal with Sterling. Good question though, this should get more conversation.

magichatnumber9
03-04-2011, 11:34 AM
If the Clippers had a different owner I would pick them.

ghettosean
03-04-2011, 11:40 AM
Right now I would take the Thunder because they are ready to go and win with the addtion of Perkins and Nazr but if I'm looking at talent for the future I would go with the Clips they have a bright future and with Kaman back who knows with that sqaud.

NYYCowboys
03-04-2011, 11:41 AM
I'd choose the Clippers because even if you had moderate success it would be astronomical. The Thunder already have been to the playoffs recently with this core and have really high expectations. With the Clippers they have good young talent to build around, and even making the playoffs and being somewhat successful will make you look great as the GM.

TopsyTurvy
03-04-2011, 11:48 AM
IF Donald Sterling was no longer the owner of the Clippers when I became GM, I would take the Clippers... Otherwise - OKC.

Sterling's latest:

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/02/sports/la-sp-plaschke-20110302-10


It appeared in The Times' most recent Sunday edition, showing separate head shots of Sterling and Griffin under the heading, "Clippers Celebrate Black History Month."

Yet it had a pretty weird way of celebrating it.

"In honor of Black History Month, the Clippers will admit 1,000 underprivileged children free," read the text, and if you're like me, you're thinking, hmm, why are "underprivileged children" directly linked to "black history?"

The other problem is the date of the "Black History Month" giveaway, which is March 2 against Houston. If you are going to honor that month, get the right month. For the last 35 years, Black History Month has been celebrated in February.

If this were any other owner of any other team, this would merely raise eyebrows. But given Sterling's history on racial issues, it drops jaws.

He once paid $2.73 million to settle housing discrimination allegations. He is being sued by former employee Elgin Baylor for having a "plantation mentality." In Baylor's court filings, Sterling was even accused of bringing women into the locker room while the players were showering and saying, "Look at those beautiful black bodies."

Todd Boyd, a USC professor and celebrated author on issues of culture and sports, has long been among those in town who have openly wondered how Sterling's behavior has avoided league censure. He thought this latest bit of ink-stained wretchedness was just more of the same.

"If he was trying to be sarcastic," Boyd said, "it actually might have been funny, but he wasn't."

YankeeClipper5
03-04-2011, 11:57 AM
I'd pick the Thunder. They're young and might be ready to contend. One of the top PG's in the game and arguably the best scorer in the game. Durant just signed an extension so you don't have to worry about that, just resigning Westbrook.

PrettyBoyJ
03-04-2011, 12:14 PM
If I'm a GM I'm def. going with the Clippers.. Thunder has Kevin Durant & Russel Westbrook that's there biggest attraction, which is a pretty good one.. But when you look at the Clippers there headed to the lottery again which means more young talent, They Got Blake Griffin yeah he not playing "basketball" and only uses his athleticism but isnt that what Dwight Howards Been doing the last 4 years and he's only mentioned as the best center in the league. From what I hear Blake has a great worth ethic which means he will def. develop into a top player in the league.. 2nd reason Eric Gordon, guy can flat out ball, his future looks very promising and can only get better.. They also got DeAndre Jordan another young player who can develop into a good defensive/rebounding big which puts most team over the top.. And they play in the 2nd biggest market in the U.S. which in an owners point of view would want to build an even stronger nucleus with the young group they got especially with the Lakers aging they have a chance of taking over LA..

sep11ie
03-04-2011, 12:24 PM
Wait, why are the Thunder hiring a new GM?

Mile High Champ
03-04-2011, 12:25 PM
The Thunder have the more complete team. Plus they have a key thing that the Clippers don't have anything of, defense. Both their big's, Perkins and Ibaka are great in the low post defensively and both are good in help defense. Thabo is one of the best perimeter defender in the league and Westbrook is defensively sound. Defense wins championships and the Thunder are loaded in that department.

ChitownSports16
03-04-2011, 12:26 PM
Was this suppost to be a hard question? Thunder!

pd1dish
03-04-2011, 12:29 PM
i see a lot of people strictly comparing KD/Westbrook to Griffin/Gordon. you cant do that, especially since the Thunder have many more pieces already in place, while the Clippers still have a lot of work to do.

therefore, i pick the Thunder.

they are better than any other "young" team and i think that KD is a much better player to build the franchise around than Griffin. Thunder also have an up and coming PG in Westbrook. so between the stars of each team, the Thunder, imo, are much better.

but like i said above, they already have other pieces in place like a big, defensive center in Perkins and theyve got a great defensive PF in Ibaka. those 4 guys are all great starters and theyve got Harden as their SG and 3rd offensive option, which isnt bad. OKC just needs to get a good, inside scoring presence and then theyll be set

CowboysKB24
03-04-2011, 02:25 PM
So far he's doing very well and I honestly think he's a good 3rd option, veteran for our guys to be around.

Mo Williams is not a great veteran that is going to have an impact on the team. He had 1 decent year with LBJ in Cleveland and if he is anything like he was on CLE it will be a terrible thing for the Clippers. I remember Williams and LBJ making skits and pregame dances. They look like middle school basketball players when they did corny acts like that. I really did almost throw up when I saw that on TV. It is embarrassing that the NBA even allows that to happen. They weren't making skits when they got dominated in the playoffs twice and watched the finals at home.

JasonJohnHorn
03-04-2011, 03:33 PM
A healthy Kaman/Griffin front court.... scary!
I have to take the Clippers, though I feel like I will kick myself in the @$$ for saying this in a year or two, Durant and Westbrook are crazy, I'm just a rebounds= championships kinda guy.

sf-fanatic
03-04-2011, 04:38 PM
This thread kind of backfired since the unanimous decision seem to be the thunder.

Clippersfan86, I don't think you watch the Thunder that much at all or pay attention to them, because if you did you would have known that Russell Westbrook's strength is defense. During the draft, all you hear from scouts and analysts is that defense is one of his biggest strengths and would keep him in the league for awhile to prevent him from being a bust. When he was drafted, the only part of his game that was NBA ready was his defense hence the Pac-10 All-Defensive first team. His shot, passing, court-vision, and complete offense game had to be developed at the NBA level. That being said he is a complete point guard although his three point shooting and turnover rate could improve and I would take a complete point guard over Eric Gordon any day of the week.

My choice is the Thunder.

IMO, I don't think a dynasty can be built without a franchise PG and/or C (unless you have Kobe or Lebron); two of the most important positions in basketball. That is why I won't ever consider the Clippers or Timberwolves among the elite or a dynasty.

Lake_Show2416
03-04-2011, 04:43 PM
Griffin isn't god .........enough!!!

Thunder in a 2nd.. they are legit contender

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 04:57 PM
This thread kind of backfired since the unanimous decision seem to be the thunder.

Clippersfan86, I don't think you watch the Thunder that much at all or pay attention to them, because if you did you would have known that Russell Westbrook's strength is defense. During the draft, all you hear from scouts and analysts is that defense is one of his biggest strengths and would keep him in the league for awhile to prevent him from being a bust. When he was drafted, the only part of his game that was NBA ready was his defense hence the Pac-10 All-Defensive first team. His shot, passing, court-vision, and complete offense game had to be developed at the NBA level. That being said he is a complete point guard although his three point shooting and turnover rate could improve and I would take a complete point guard over Eric Gordon any day of the week.

My choice is the Thunder.

IMO, I don't think a dynasty can be built without a franchise PG and/or C (unless you have Kobe or Lebron); two of the most important positions in basketball. That is why I won't ever consider the Clippers or Timberwolves among the elite or a dynasty.

How many of those traditional PG/C combo title winners were score first PG's? Almost 0. Traditionally you need a dominant bigman and a good PG to win rings unless you're running the triangle offense. Can you honestly say with a straight face that Kendrick Perkins is a better Center than Chris Kaman??? I'd one up you and say this season DeAndre Jordan is a better defender than Perkins too. So we have 2 Centers you can say are better than theirs. I see more balance in the Clippers roster than I do in the Thunder. Thunder lack size. If Ibaka or Perkins get into foul trouble then what? Clippers have DJ and Kaman.. both 7 footers... Blake who's 6'10 and a couple bench bigs like Ike who are as big as Ibaka.

Remember.. you need a good PG and C but not an elite PG to win titles. Mo Williams and soon Eric Bledsoe.. are good enough to get the job done assuming you have other pieces. Mo almost got it done with Lebron carrying sorry Cleveland and this Clippers team is WAY better. As for the PG/C need... to make it more accurate you'd say you need an inside/out presence and we have that. Eric Gordon and Blake Griffin. If anything this disqualifies the Thunder. Westbrook gets to the rim but the Thunder have absolutely 0 post presence on offense. Perkins and Ibaka are terrible scorers. Basically if teams can eliminate the fastbreak for OKC and play defense on the perimeter OKC is in trouble. I have yet to see OKC consistently play in the halfcourt and go to the post.

Reality is they don't have the personnel for it. Perkins was an upgrade defensively.. but offensively they are worse off.

Mo Williams<Russell Westbrook
Eric Gordon>Sefalosha/Harden
Durant>Gomes/Aminu
Blake Griffin>Ibaka
Chris Kaman/DeAndre Jordan>Kendrick Perkins


People don't realize the Thunder have had 3 seasons with that core to figure it out. Russell was drafted when Eric Gordon was in 08. He already had Durant there and they have gelled nicely. Give this Clippers core 3-4 seasons together with the right coaching and they will be more dominant than the Thunder. The Clippers roster/playstyle more emulates the Bulls while the Thunder is closer to a Mavs type of play.

Clippers much like the Bulls dominate pretty much every team they play with interior scoring, rebounding, blocking shots and slashing to the rim. They win when they play defense and rebound. This roster is built to run but also has multiple bigs who like to score in the post during a half court set. Blake Griffin scores the 2nd most points in the paint after Dwight Howard.

The Thunder's defense is done off the ball and in the passing lanes (at least to this point before Perkins has gelled fully). If you watch the Thunder play... in half court offense and defense they are pretty average... but if you turn the ball over vs their quick hands you are screwed. They rely on fastbreaks and outside shooting to burn you. Can't play a half court offense.


Btw as for my opinion of Russell's defense... I'm not going to go by what scouting reports say. I'm going to go off what I see and the Thunder have been my 2nd team I follow and watch for 2 seasons now. Russell Westbrook is the same kind of defender Iverson was. Great off the ball defender can't stop anyone with man on man D. I don't consider that good defense so color me unimpressed. Allen Iverson wasn't a good defender either despite racking up steals like this. A good defender is someone you can say "hey go get us a stop". I posted this same thing on ISH and more than half of the posters said Eric Gordon is definitely a better man to man defender which is all I said. Can you guys tell me who Russell has shut down with 1 on 1 man D? Like name a couple elite players he's locked up. How does he do vs Rose, Nash, CP3, D Will etc? I can tell you Eric Gordon has locked up Manu, Ellis, K Martin, Joe Johnson and even guarded Kobe very well 2 times this season.

ne3xchamps
03-04-2011, 05:06 PM
I would go to the thunder. The only reason is because the owner of the clippers. if it wasn't for him, I would be the GM of the clippers, no doubt.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 05:10 PM
I would go to the thunder. The only reason is because the owner of the clippers. if it wasn't for him, I would be the GM of the clippers, no doubt.

Very fair. It seems a lot of people think that. Maybe I should of said Donald Sterling dies the day you're hired.

Silent
03-04-2011, 05:20 PM
I may be crazy, but clippers. I like eric gordon that much. They got a nice young core over there and with kaman now, that team is only getting better.

Need a new coach though

i would also take the clipps if it wasnt for there owner i love Gordon kid is gonna be a stud. but i will take the thunder good coach good team and great owner

cabernetluver
03-04-2011, 05:22 PM
Absent ownership, it is the Clippers in a heartbeat to build on. They have a bigger, stronger 1 and 2 and a more talented 4 positions in place. While the OKC has a better 3 and 5. There are several good point guards who will be available at the end of the season and the Clippers have room. The last piece is if you had to choose between living in OKC or LA, is it really a tough decision?

ichitownclowni
03-04-2011, 05:31 PM
Um Idk hard one

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 05:31 PM
The Thunder have the more complete team. Plus they have a key thing that the Clippers don't have anything of, defense. Both their big's, Perkins and Ibaka are great in the low post defensively and both are good in help defense. Thabo is one of the best perimeter defender in the league and Westbrook is defensively sound. Defense wins championships and the Thunder are loaded in that department.

BTW say hello to Eric Gordon and DeAndre Jordan. Both beasts defensively. One on the perimeter and one inside. DeAndre Jordan had a 5 game stretch this season where he AVERAGED 5.5 blocks per game.

Meet Eric Gordon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG-9sDHfqgw

Meet DeAndre Jordan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bp3Kt5xLd2c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKbs-D_FpJ4

sf-fanatic
03-04-2011, 05:35 PM
How many of those traditional PG/C combo title winners were score first PG's? Almost 0.

Tony Parker considering he never averaged more than 6 assists per game and has averaged near/over 20 points several times in his career. He also has multiple titles.


Traditionally you need a dominant bigman and a good PG to win rings unless you're running the triangle offense. Can you honestly say with a straight face that Kendrick Perkins is a better Center than Chris Kaman??? I'd one up you and say this season DeAndre Jordan is a better defender than Perkins too. So we have 2 Centers you can say are better than theirs.

I don't know where you are getting your facts from but Perkins may be the best defensive center in the NBA, or maybe slightly below Howard. Perkins is the rare type of center in the NBA that you build a defensive system around. I see none of that from Jordan and Kaman.


I see more balance in the Clippers roster than I do in the Thunder. Thunder lack size. If Ibaka or Perkins get into foul trouble then what? Clippers have DJ and Kaman.. both 7 footers... Blake who's 6'10 and a couple bench bigs like Ike who are as big as Ibaka.

The Thunder starting lineup is definitely more balanced, but for the bench the clippers may have the slight edge in depth. The Thunder have the better 6th man in Harden. In the playoffs, you rarely go past the 8th-9th man because there are so many off days. You are also underestimating the job of Nazr Mohammed and Nick Collison. They are in no way great, but they are great at what he does and that is being a backup bigs. Also, Aldrich and Mullens are first rounders who are being developed slowly.


Remember.. you need a good PG and C but not an elite PG to win titles. Mo Williams and soon Eric Bledsoe.. are good enough to get the job done assuming you have other pieces. Mo almost got it done with Lebron carrying sorry Cleveland and this Clippers team is WAY better. As for the PG/C need... to make it more accurate you'd say you need an inside/out presence and we have that. Eric Gordon and Blake Griffin. If anything this disqualifies the Thunder. Westbrook gets to the rim but the Thunder have absolutely 0 post presence on offense. Perkins and Ibaka are terrible scorers. Basically if teams can eliminate the fastbreak for OKC and play defense on the perimeter OKC is in trouble. I have yet to see OKC consistently play in the halfcourt and go to the post.

Look at the past nba champions. They have all had a elite big defender that anchors the defense. From Pau, to Garnett, to Shaq, to Duncan, to Perkins, to Ben Wallace, to David Robinson. I'd say Ibaka and Perkins are capable post scorers that should be expected to put up double double numbers. Perkins will get more touched in OKC and Ibaka will get more time since he is starting now. Perkins averaged double digit points last year when healthy and Ibaka averaged double digits for the first 2 months of the season when he played almost 30 minutes a game.

You are right on that part, OKC needs to improve their half court offense, although a big reason why it wasn't effective was because they had to real PF and C with Green and Nenad starting but now with Ibaka and Perkins it should be much improved.


Reality is they don't have the personnel for it. Perkins was an upgrade defensively.. but offensively they are worse off.

Mo Williams<Russell Westbrook
Eric Gordon>Sefalosha/Harden
Durant>Gomes/Aminu
Blake Griffin>Ibaka
Chris Kaman/DeAndre Jordan>Kendrick Perkins

Their offense might be worse in the short term, but in the long term it will actually be better. It was obvious that Jeff Green did not fit in OKC's future. Only change here is Perkins > Clippers centers.



People don't realize the Thunder have had 3 seasons with that core to figure it out. Russell was drafted when Eric Gordon was in 08. He already had Durant there and they have gelled nicely. Give this Clippers core 3-4 seasons together with the right coaching and they will be more dominant than the Thunder. The Clippers roster/playstyle more emulates the Bulls while the Thunder is closer to a Mavs type of play.

Only time will tell. I'm not bashing the Clips or anything, but I just don't feel at this point the Clippers are near the Thunder, although it is understandable why.


Clippers much like the Bulls dominate pretty much every team they play with interior scoring, rebounding, blocking shots and slashing to the rim. They win when they play defense and rebound. This roster is built to run but also has multiple bigs who like to score in the post during a half court set. Blake Griffin scores the 2nd most points in the paint after Dwight Howard.

The Thunder's defense is done off the ball and in the passing lanes (at least to this point before Perkins has gelled fully). If you watch the Thunder play... in half court offense and defense they are pretty average... but if you turn the ball over vs their quick hands you are screwed. They rely on fastbreaks and outside shooting to burn you. Can't play a half court offense.


Btw as for my opinion of Russell's defense... I'm not going to go by what scouting reports say. I'm going to go off what I see and the Thunder have been my 2nd team I follow and watch for 2 seasons now. Russell Westbrook is the same kind of defender Iverson was. Great off the ball defender can't stop anyone with man on man D. I don't consider that good defense so color me unimpressed. Allen Iverson wasn't a good defender either despite racking up steals like this. A good defender is someone you can say "hey go get us a stop". I posted this same thing on ISH and more than half of the posters said Eric Gordon is definitely a better man to man defender which is all I said. Can you guys tell me who Russell has shut down with 1 on 1 man D? Like name a couple elite players he's locked up. How does he do vs Rose, Nash, CP3, D Will etc? I can tell you Eric Gordon has locked up Manu, Ellis, K Martin, Joe Johnson and even guarded Kobe very well 2 times this season.



Russell Westbrook doesn't play defense anything like Iverson. For all the praise about the Clippers defense, I don't see them ranked anywhere near the top 15 on any site in any defensive statistics.

sf-fanatic
03-04-2011, 05:37 PM
BTW say hello to Eric Gordon and DeAndre Jordan. Both beasts defensively. One on the perimeter and one inside. DeAndre Jordan had a 5 game stretch this season where he AVERAGED 5.5 blocks per game.

Meet Eric Gordon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG-9sDHfqgw

Meet DeAndre Jordan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bp3Kt5xLd2c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKbs-D_FpJ4

Just like like how steals aren't a good measurement of defense, neither at blocks. Blocks show athleticism more than defensive ability. A lot of those blocks are probably weakside blocks from shots by Griffins man.

TrueFan420
03-04-2011, 05:39 PM
thunder by a mile

Swashcuff
03-04-2011, 05:42 PM
Just like like how steals aren't a good measurement of defense, neither at blocks. Blocks show athleticism more than defensive ability. A lot of those blocks are probably weakside blocks from shots by Griffins man.

Hey Bro! Word of advice that guy is a clear biased homer and nothing is going to change his opinion. Not even facts. So just let it ride because he knows nothing about basketball.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 05:42 PM
Russell Westbrook doesn't play defense anything like Iverson. For all the praise about the Clippers defense, I don't see them ranked anywhere near the top 15 on any site in any defensive statistics.

That's because of how they started the season man. From Dec 1st to end of Jan when Eric Gordon went down the Clippers were ranked the 2nd overall defense during that stretch after Miami. 1st in assists, 2nd in rebounding, 2nd in points in the paint, 1st in points in the paint defense. Gotta remember Eric Gordon is probably the most valuable player to us. He's our defensive stopper AND top scorer. Without him... our team fell very far. In those 5 weeks. Remember... we at one point won 11 of 14... and had won 9 straight home games to set the record. Statistically we were among the best in most categories. That was with raw rookies playing too.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 05:47 PM
Just like like how steals aren't a good measurement of defense, neither at blocks. Blocks show athleticism more than defensive ability. A lot of those blocks are probably weakside blocks from shots by Griffins man.

You mentioned defensive stopper in the paint and DJ has shown he has potential in that department to be one of the best in the league. Most of Dwight's blocked shots are off help D as well. I think you haven't been keeping up with DJ's massive leaps defensively. I agree though most of the blocks are either from Blake's blown coverages or his great athleticism. Then again Dwight's the same right? Not like Dwight is blocking all of his shots in man to man D. Typically most blocked shots ARE from help D.

tdunk21
03-04-2011, 05:51 PM
Hey Bro! Word of advice that guy is a clear biased homer and nothing is going to change his opinion. Not even facts. So just let it ride because he knows nothing about basketball.

IMO he is trying to make a case that eric gordon is better than russell westbrook.....

sf-fanatic
03-04-2011, 05:54 PM
You mentioned defensive stopper in the paint and DJ has shown he has potential in that department to be one of the best in the league. Most of Dwight's blocked shots are off help D as well. I think you haven't been keeping up with DJ's massive leaps defensively. I agree though most of the blocks are either from Blake's blown coverages or his great athleticism. Then again Dwight's the same right? Not like Dwight is blocking all of his shots in man to man D. Typically most blocked shots ARE from help D.

Deandre Jordans best season of defensive rating has never been better than Kendrick Perkins worse season. The last 3 years (not including this year because he barely played) of defensive win shares from Perkins he has averaged over 4 WS on DEFENSE only. Jordan has never had above 2, although he might eclipse that mark this year.

Swashcuff
03-04-2011, 05:58 PM
IMO he is trying to make a case that eric gordon is better than russell westbrook.....

Which he is doing a HORRIBLE job at. I don't by into that but even I can make a better case. Imagine earlier he said it has been know for quite some time that Westbrook was a liability of D then turned around and said how he made a mistake. In all honesty how on earth could one make such a mistake.

He is going by his opinion and when someone proves his opinion wrong he suddenly changes his story and has been doing it this entire thread. He really needs to STFU right now.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 06:55 PM
Deandre Jordans best season of defensive rating has never been better than Kendrick Perkins worse season. The last 3 years (not including this year because he barely played) of defensive win shares from Perkins he has averaged over 4 WS on DEFENSE only. Jordan has never had above 2, although he might eclipse that mark this year.

Phil Jackson when asked why the Clippers dominated the month of Jan

"DeAndre Jordan. His defensive presence is the reason they have turned the corner".

I don't care about advanced stats or win shares. In less than 27 minutes a game DJ is closing in on 2 blocked shots per game... and is a big time defensive presence. Kendrick when fully healthy is the best interior defender in the league.. when it comes to man to man D. It DOES NOT mean DJ is a bad defender by any means. DeAndre has emerged as as a very solid and at times fantastic beast inside the paint defensively. He just turned 22.. and was raw as hell as a 2nd round draft pick who rarely got playing time before this season. He will improve.

As for poster above... I don't think Eric Gordon is quite as good as Westbrook. Mainly because Westbrook is such a dominant triple double threat and his clutch play has been huge. I think you can make a very good case that Russell Westbrook is equally if not more valuable to the Thunder than Durant.

BTW... Unlike Perkins who's only 26 but keeps getting injured including being injured AGAIN right now after major surgery last offseason.... DJ hasn't had a single injury in his 3 seasons. He's had minor ones during games and walked them off.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 06:59 PM
Which he is doing a HORRIBLE job at. I don't by into that but even I can make a better case. Imagine earlier he said it has been know for quite some time that Westbrook was a liability of D then turned around and said how he made a mistake. In all honesty how on earth could one make such a mistake.

He is going by his opinion and when someone proves his opinion wrong he suddenly changes his story and has been doing it this entire thread. He really needs to STFU right now.

Lol you're raging dude. What's the big deal with me saying he's a defensive liability.. then saying "Actually I was too hard on him... but I still don't feel he's as good of a defender". In hindsight.. I realized I was exaggerating and incorrect. Has nothing to do with anyone proving me wrong. Did you present stats? Did you present any logical points as to WHY Russell is a better defender? No you just cried like a little ***** about it and threw in the towel. You basically made your OPINION out to be superior to mine, called me an idiot and said you're done. How about presenting some facts or explaining in detail why he's better like I did with Gordon?

Then you resort to being a passive aggressive douche and tell everyone else to disregard me because you didn't like what I had to say? Man up fool. If you don't like my thread... say you disagree or don't post. It's really simple. Obviously it's went on enough pages to show it's at least somewhat of an interesting topic to others. Don't ruin the thread by crying man.

Swashcuff
03-04-2011, 07:19 PM
Lol you're raging dude. What's the big deal with me saying he's a defensive liability.. then saying "Actually I was too hard on him... but I still don't feel he's as good of a defender". In hindsight.. I realized I was exaggerating and incorrect. Has nothing to do with anyone proving me wrong. Did you present stats? Did you present any logical points as to WHY Russell is a better defender? No you just cried like a little ***** about it and threw in the towel. You basically made your OPINION out to be superior to mine, called me an idiot and said you're done. How about presenting some facts or explaining in detail why he's better like I did with Gordon?

Then you resort to being a passive aggressive douche and tell everyone else to disregard me because you didn't like what I had to say? Man up fool. If you don't like my thread... say you disagree or don't post. It's really simple. Obviously it's went on enough pages to show it's at least somewhat of an interesting topic to others. Don't ruin the thread by crying man.

I never compared the two. I simply stated that you were wrong on Westbrook. That was not the only instance where your tune changed however.

All I have to say to you on thier defense is this

http://www.82games.com/1011/10OKC2.HTM

Scroll down and take a look at Westbrook's offensive and defensive ratings come crunch time.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10LAC5.HTM

Now take a look at Gordon's.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=westbru01&y1=2011&p2=gordoer01&y2=2011

Now take a look at Westbrook's DWS as compared to Gordon's. Also take a look at their respective DTRG.

I do believe that Gordon is a fantastic defender no doubt. I don't however think that he is better than Russel Westbrook. The difference is marginal to say the very least but I'll give Westbrook the edge in that department.

I never ran or anything I am just FED UP of your excuses, opinions and lies quite frankly.

HouRealCoach
03-04-2011, 07:21 PM
Needs a poll but I would take LAC... Guys I think Shaq or Duncan were the last rookies to average around 23,13,3 as a rookie and have such impact

Griffin is destined to win multiple titles... Also they have Kaman, Gordon, Aminu, Foye, Cap Space and a high draft pick(Could be Irving)

Their just a good coach and a star PG away from being a Top 5 team in the West

and I wouldve probably took Thunder before the Perkins and Collison extensions... That money couldve been used for much better players

But picking the Thunder is 100% understandable

Another question.. Why no love for Love, Beasley, Rubio, Flynn, Johnson? Their a solid center and experience away from being a top squad but I think they have about as much young talent as LAC

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 07:25 PM
I never compared the two. I simply stated that you were wrong on Westbrook. That was not the only instance where your tune changed however.

All I have to say to you on thier defense is this

http://www.82games.com/1011/10OKC2.HTM

Scroll down and take a look at Westbrook's offensive and defensive ratings come crunch time.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10LAC5.HTM

Now take a look at Gordon's.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=westbru01&y1=2011&p2=gordoer01&y2=2011

Now take a look at Westbrook's DWS as compared to Gordon's. Also take a look at their respective DTRG.

I do believe that Gordon is a fantastic defender no doubt. I don't however think that he is better than Russel Westbrook. The difference is marginal to say the very least but I'll give Westbrook the edge in that department.

I never ran or anything I am just FED UP of your excuses, opinions and lies quite frankly.

THANK YOU. You finally presented some stats and made a logical point. This is all I expected and I'm perfectly ok with you disagreeing and even not liking me. I do not understand though how in a couple posts you've already labeled me as someone who's a liar and that makes a lot of excuses. I think you have a pretty short fuse but that's your prerogative man. I don't expect everyone to like each other on a forum.

As for the stats you presented.. I PERSONALLY (Clarifying.. JUST MY OPINION).. don't place much value in advanced stats. Sports can't merely be broken down in numbers. From extensive viewing experience of both players I just happen to disagree but that's OK! I've watched Russell Westbrook get burned in man to man D for his entire career... and Eric Gordon not so much. I'm very confident every game that defensively Eric Gordon is going to hold his own and be able to get stops for us. Coach K on team USA called Eric Gordon their defensive stopper... wonder why Westbrook wasn't in that role if he's such a fantastic defender? Hmm..

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 07:30 PM
Needs a poll but I would take LAC... Guys I think Shaq or Duncan were the last rookies to average around 23,13,3 as a rookie and have such impact

Griffin is destined to win multiple titles... Also they have Kaman, Gordon, Aminu, Foye, Cap Space and a high draft pick(Could be Irving)

Their just a good coach and a star PG away from being a Top 5 team in the West

and I wouldve probably took Thunder before the Perkins and Collison extensions... That money couldve been used for much better players

But picking the Thunder is 100% understandable

Another question.. Why no love for Love, Beasley, Rubio, Flynn, Johnson? Their a solid center and experience away from being a top squad but I think they have about as much young talent as LAC

Minnesota is right there with young talent. Problem is they don't have clear cut franchise players like the Thunder and Clippers. Love is a beast.. and Beasley shows flashes... but it's not as clearly defined.

I agree with you on Blake's rookie season. Also I think most people aren't realizing the significance or historical value of Blake's rookie season. We all know dominant bigmen= rings or at least major playoff success. Not always defensive beasts either. Malone wasn't an excellent defender.. as well as Charles Barkley and they had superb careers. Rookie Blake is a handful of 20 and 10 games away from surpassing the records set by David Robinson and Shaq.

Historically speaking... rookies this good ALWAYS win. It may take a season like it did for Jordan, Lebron and other top rookies... but he IS going to be a winner. Nobody knows how far he will go.. but rookies this good, this soon always bring a ton of success to a team. It's only a matter of time.

Edit: You forgot we also have DeAndre Jordan who's 22 and blowing up... and Eric Bledsoe at 21 who's shown he's a capable PG.

smith&wesson
03-04-2011, 07:41 PM
im going with OKC because those kids like playing together and seem to want to stay there for a while.

blake griffen is amazing, but thats the problem what are the chances he remains a clipper ??

not baiting clipper fans. just giving my honest answer and how i came to it.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 07:51 PM
im going with OKC because those kids like playing together and seem to want to stay there for a while.

blake griffen is amazing, but thats the problem what are the chances he remains a clipper ??

not baiting clipper fans. just giving my honest answer and how i came to it.

Good post and it's not baiting at all, it's the truth that there are no guarantees Blake will stay. Then again Blake is here for a minimum of 4 more seasons.. which is only 1 year less than the extension Durant just signed last offseason. I heard rumblings that Westbrook may not be affordable for OKC especially after they just extended Perkins. Chances are good that Westbrook is worth not much less than a max contract type player. I don't see Blake leaving if we are winning... especially when he's surrounded by all this young talent. Eric Gordon is a humble player and perfectly ok with the Robin type role. He's also a 24 ppg, 3 rpg, 4.5 apg player who spreads the floor with his 3 point shooting. I think Eric makes Blake's life a lot easier... so he will think about that when he considers bolting.

Young and Stupid
03-04-2011, 07:53 PM
Like I said earlier today; the Thunder are the easy choice, but the Clippers are the right choice.

smith&wesson
03-04-2011, 07:56 PM
Good post and it's not baiting at all, it's the truth that there are no guarantees Blake will stay. Then again Blake is here for a minimum of 4 more seasons.. which is only 1 year less than the extension Durant just signed last offseason. I heard rumblings that Westbrook may not be affordable for OKC especially after they just extended Perkins. Chances are good that Westbrook is worth not much less than a max contract type player. I don't see Blake leaving if we are winning... especially when he's surrounded by all this young talent. Eric Gordon is a humble player and perfectly ok with the Robin type role. He's also a 24 ppg, 3 rpg, 4.5 apg player who spreads the floor with his 3 point shooting. I think Eric makes Blake's life a lot easier... so he will think about that when he considers bolting.

As a raptor fan i am all too familiar with our best players fleeing the scene. tmac, carter, bosh etc.

i hope you guys are able to retain blake griffen, there for if i was the clippers GM i would do my best to suround blake with the best possible talent that i can. not guys like mo will because he was brought in to help lebron and that obviously didnt keep him around. i think it will take alot more to keep blake and i hope managment is willing to go over the cap and even over spend on talent. the good new is you guys have time to show him your serious about winning and suround him with a proper suporting cast.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 08:02 PM
Like I said earlier today; the Thunder are the easy choice, but the Clippers are the right choice.

Agree :clap:.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 08:05 PM
As a raptor fan i am all too familiar with our best players fleeing the scene. tmac, carter, bosh etc.

i hope you guys are able to retain blake griffen, there for if i was the clippers GM i would do my best to suround blake with the best possible talent that i can. not guys like mo will because he was brought in to help lebron and that obviously didnt keep him around. i think it will take alot more to keep blake and i hope managment is willing to go over the cap and even over spend on talent. the good new is you guys have time to show him your serious about winning and suround him with a proper suporting cast.

Funny thing. I started off as a Raptors fan because of rookie Vince Carter. I was bummed when T Mac bailed because he wanted his own team. I was a fan of Antonio Davis, Mo Pete, Alvin Williams and Doug Christie. Bunch of likable, nice guys. Hard workers. I agree we need to be way more proactive than Cleveland was. As it stands though.. Clippers roster/potential is miles ahead of the roster Lebron was working with. I agree we need to show him we are serious.

What will cause all of this to fall apart though is.. if Eric Gordon declines a max extension this offseason. If he does.. he's all but gone which in turn means Blake is gone. If Eric signs the max contract without us having to match another team... that will be a big step forward.

Swashcuff
03-04-2011, 08:08 PM
THANK YOU. You finally presented some stats and made a logical point. This is all I expected and I'm perfectly ok with you disagreeing and even not liking me. I do not understand though how in a couple posts you've already labeled me as someone who's a liar and that makes a lot of excuses. I think you have a pretty short fuse but that's your prerogative man. I don't expect everyone to like each other on a forum.

As for the stats you presented.. I PERSONALLY (Clarifying.. JUST MY OPINION).. don't place much value in advanced stats. Sports can't merely be broken down in numbers. From extensive viewing experience of both players I just happen to disagree but that's OK! I've watched Russell Westbrook get burned in man to man D for his entire career... and Eric Gordon not so much. I'm very confident every game that defensively Eric Gordon is going to hold his own and be able to get stops for us. Coach K on team USA called Eric Gordon their defensive stopper... wonder why Westbrook wasn't in that role if he's such a fantastic defender? Hmm..

Do you understand the 82games stats I presented?

I never said that sports can be broken down into stats but what I can say is that you are the PERFECT example of why stats has its place in these sorts of discussions.

As a fan of a team you would be inclined to see more good in players on your team than the good of players on another. You can watch every single game of every single team but in all honesty you are going to favour the players on your team.

These stats help put this in perspective. These are the stats that give the actual unbiased and un-opinionated truth. They don't favour but instead work across the board, based on the player's production vs opponent's counter-production.

I too am biased as a fan of the Sixers but I am a fan of the NBA first and that is why I appreciate these stats. I mean I don't bank my knowledge on them because there is nothing better than actually watching the game but coupling the understand of these statistics and how the player goes about getting them is what really makes one appreciate the players and the game even more.

You don't have to like them but there is also no denying the fact that they are telling and truthful.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 08:16 PM
Do you understand the 82games stats I presented?

I never said that sports can be broken down into stats but what I can say is that you are the PERFECT example of why stats has its place in these sorts of discussions.

As a fan of a team you would be inclined to see more good in players on your team than the good of players on another. You can watch every single game of every single team but in all honesty you are going to favour the players on your team.

These stats help put this in perspective. These are the stats that give the actual unbiased and un-opinionated truth. They don't favour but instead work across the board, based on the player's production vs opponent's counter-production.

I too am biased as a fan of the Sixers but I am a fan of the NBA first and that is why I appreciate these stats. I mean I don't bank my knowledge on them because there is nothing better than actually watching the game but coupling the understand of these statistics and how the player goes about getting them is what really makes one appreciate the players and the game even more.

You don't have to like them but there is also no denying the fact that they are telling and truthful.

I agree stats are valuable and shouldn't be ignored. I just think win shares are a very bad stat when comparing individuals. The player on the winning team is ALWAYS going to have a higher win share right? On your chart you linked.. Eric Gordon has a better defensive rating than Westbrook, but less defensive win shares due to the Clippers struggles as a team.

That stat is predicated on team success as well. I went through the clutch stats... and Westbrook is slightly better defensively there. So my example of "need a stop at the end of the game" or w/e was the incorrect example. Eric Gordon does get more stops though right? He also allows less points per defensive possession according to his defensive rating. So statistically your charts prove exactly what I've been trying to say.

Russell Westbrook better off the ball defender, racks up more blocks and steals. Eric Gordon better defensive stopper, on the ball defender. I feel like I'm being truthful and unbiased with this statement and your charts support my claim.

Swashcuff
03-04-2011, 08:29 PM
I agree stats are valuable and shouldn't be ignored. I just think win shares are a very bad stat when comparing individuals. The player on the winning team is ALWAYS going to have a higher win share right? On your chart you linked.. Eric Gordon has a better defensive rating than Westbrook, but less defensive win shares due to the Clippers struggles as a team.

That stat is predicated on team success as well. I went through the clutch stats... and Westbrook is slightly better defensively there. So my example of "need a stop at the end of the game" or w/e was the incorrect example. Eric Gordon does get more stops though right? He also allows less points per defensive possession according to his defensive rating. So statistically your charts prove exactly what I've been trying to say.

Russell Westbrook better off the ball defender, racks up more blocks and steals. Eric Gordon better defensive stopper, on the ball defender. I feel like I'm being truthful and unbiased with this statement and your charts support my claim.

Defensive the lower the defensive rating the better. It is points allowed per 100 possessions. The less the better. Now this is all honesty a stat that is influenced by team more so than just player but it is no secret that the better defenders generally have lower DRTGs.

Westbrook isn't slightly better in that regard either dude. He is much better.

The stats I gave certainly don't support that claim.

Also you are wrong about win shares and winning. It calculates a player's value to his team winning games not how many games his team has won.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

Kevin Love is 5th in the league in Win Shares while he team has the 2nd worst record in the game.

Its calculates how much a player's production essentially to his team being able to play winning basketball.

I think you need to read and understand the stats and the formula's before you write them off. Even if its your opinion its a misinformed one.

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 08:37 PM
Defensive the lower the defensive rating the better. It is points allowed per 100 possessions. The less the better. Now this is all honesty a stat that is influenced by team more so than just player but it is no secret that the better defenders generally have lower DRTGs.

Westbrook isn't slightly better in that regard either dude. He is much better.

The stats I gave certainly don't support that claim.

Also you are wrong about win shares and winning. It calculates a player's value to his team winning games not how many games his team has won.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

Kevin Love is 5th in the league in Win Shares while he team has the 2nd worst record in the game.

Its calculates how much a player's production essentially to his team being able to play winning basketball.

I think you need to read and understand the stats and the formula's before you write them off. Even if its your opinion its a misinformed one.

Ah my bad I goofed. I thought Eric was the one with 108 and Westbrook with 112. Then I guess statistically I am wrong. I guess I was just going off of watching the players alone when I made my statements. Thanks for correcting my misconceptions (not being sarcastic). I'll put more effort into analyzing both of these players defensive games over the next couple weeks. Btw... could the stats also be partially warped because Eric Gordon's missed like 20 more games than Westbrook? As in like.. the Clippers defense went from 28th worst in Nov to 2nd best through Dec-Jan then Eric was injured for over a month. Meaning basically I wonder how they stack up just from let's say Dec 17th-Jan 17th. Is there any way to find out?

Prior to the beginning-middle of Dec our team was HORRIBLE. Then the guys had a team meeting... and started killing good teams and winning ball games.

HouRealCoach
03-04-2011, 08:43 PM
Minnesota is right there with young talent. Problem is they don't have clear cut franchise players like the Thunder and Clippers. Love is a beast.. and Beasley shows flashes... but it's not as clearly defined.

I agree with you on Blake's rookie season. Also I think most people aren't realizing the significance or historical value of Blake's rookie season. We all know dominant bigmen= rings or at least major playoff success. Not always defensive beasts either. Malone wasn't an excellent defender.. as well as Charles Barkley and they had superb careers. Rookie Blake is a handful of 20 and 10 games away from surpassing the records set by David Robinson and Shaq.

Historically speaking... rookies this good ALWAYS win. It may take a season like it did for Jordan, Lebron and other top rookies... but he IS going to be a winner. Nobody knows how far he will go.. but rookies this good, this soon always bring a ton of success to a team. It's only a matter of time.

Edit: You forgot we also have DeAndre Jordan who's 22 and blowing up... and Eric Bledsoe at 21 who's shown he's a capable PG.

Yeah I meant to add them but didnt feel like editing lol

and people tend to forget this guy actually have people wanting to watch a Clipper game

Swashcuff
03-04-2011, 08:45 PM
Ah my bad I goofed. I thought Eric was the one with 108 and Westbrook with 112. Then I guess statistically I am wrong. I guess I was just going off of watching the players alone when I made my statements. Thanks for correcting my misconceptions (not being sarcastic). I'll put more effort into analyzing both of these players defensive games over the next couple weeks. Btw... could the stats also be partially warped because Eric Gordon's missed like 20 more games than Westbrook? As in like.. the Clippers defense went from 28th worst in Nov to 2nd best through Dec-Jan then Eric was injured for over a month. Meaning basically I wonder how they stack up just from let's say Dec 17th-Jan 17th. Is there any way to find out?

In all honesty there must be a way but I don't know of a site/source in which I could get access that information. What I can tell you though is you can use the box scores (box scores don't tell half a story but if attempting to find per games averages, shooting percentages and +/- for each player they can indeed be of good value) and develop a theory of your own in that regard.

I must apologize for my rants earlier. From reading more and more of what you wrote I can tell that I took you for the wrong type of poster. I sensed real potential in you to start the thread but as it went along it seemed as though you were being a little thick skulled. You do however know a great deal about the Clipps and have an appreciation for the game. Good Posting!

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 08:45 PM
Yeah I meant to add them but didnt feel like editing lol

and people tend to forget this guy actually have people wanting to watch a Clipper game

Viewing is literally up like 80 percent from last season if I recall correctly. Yea that's a good thing though. I can't say how many people that used to bag on the team watch now.

COOLbeans
03-04-2011, 08:48 PM
the Thunder. are you kidding? Donald Stirling (Clipper owner) is the biggest douche of them all.:nod:

Clippersfan86
03-04-2011, 08:53 PM
In all honesty there must be a way but I don't know of a site/source in which I could get access that information. What I can tell you though is you can use the box scores (box scores don't tell half a story but if attempting to find per games averages, shooting percentages and +/- for each player they can indeed be of good value) and develop a theory of your own in that regard.

I must apologize for my rants earlier. From reading more and more of what you wrote I can tell that I took you for the wrong type of poster. I sensed real potential in you to start the thread but as it went along it seemed as though you were being a little thick skulled. You do however know a great deal about the Clipps and have an appreciation for the game. Good Posting!

Thanks man. I apologize as well for telling you you're being a douche etc. It was a misunderstanding. I try not to be a homer and like watching many teams.. but like you said.. we all have a bias of course to some degree. I'll see what I can do about putting together defensive charts for both players from that 1 month. :).

Lakers&Kobe#1
03-04-2011, 09:02 PM
Clippers! Griffin in a couple of years will he a top 5 player and then gordan a future all-star damn!! Plus they are young and athletic thunder are to but I'll be a little biased and say the clippers

superkegger
03-04-2011, 09:49 PM
the Thunder. are you kidding? Donald Stirling (Clipper owner) is the biggest douche of them all.:nod:

Pretty much. The Thunder have a commitment to winning, Donald Sterling doesn't seem to care much about basketball, winning or much of anything. Working for that man would be one of the last things I would ever want to do.

BRICKCITYPIMP12
03-05-2011, 12:45 AM
i wanna say clips cuz of griffin...BUT... thunder has more.
its pretty much griffin...EG - vs. - KD...westbrook...harden...perk and nate.

Clippersfan86
03-05-2011, 01:51 AM
i wanna say clips cuz of griffin...BUT... thunder has more.
its pretty much griffin...EG - vs. - KD...westbrook...harden...perk and nate.

No DeAndre Jordan, Chris Kaman, Eric Bledsoe, Al Farouq Aminu? Randy Foye who dropped a couple 25+ point games lately including a 17 point quarter?

eggy111
03-05-2011, 02:22 AM
I have to go with the clips, thunder have amassed a great amount of talent but I feel they're too set so I wouldn't wanna mess around with the roster. Clips on the other hand have so many players that can be moved to form an ultimately better team than the thunder. Gordan and griffin would obviously stay in place,also jordan too.

John Walls Era
03-05-2011, 03:17 AM
Thunder. I don't wanna work for the Clipper's owner, plus the talent that they have is overrated.

The_Jamal
03-05-2011, 03:30 AM
Nice homer thread, but it's not even close. While the Clips have some nice young pieces, they aren't close to the talent level of the Thunder besides Griffin.

ClipperfanKevin
03-05-2011, 04:03 AM
LOL at the lack of foresight in this thread. The 2008-2009 OKC Thunder squad (first year Durant and Westbrook teamed up), they finished 23-59. This season (first year that Griffin and Gordon are teaming up), the Clippers are 22-40 with 20 games left. Sure the Thunder team wasn't as well rounded as they are now, but there isn't anything from stopping the Clippers from acquiring some solid role players now that the main pieces are in place.

Clippersfan86
03-05-2011, 05:22 AM
LOL at the lack of foresight in this thread. The 2008-2009 OKC Thunder squad (first year Durant and Westbrook teamed up), they finished 23-59. This season (first year that Griffin and Gordon are teaming up), the Clippers are 22-40 with 20 games left. Sure the Thunder team wasn't as well rounded as they are now, but there isn't anything from stopping the Clippers from acquiring some solid role players now that the main pieces are in place.

Yea people are making this a Thunder vs Clippers question when that's NOT the topic. The Thunder have had a couple years to gel and did worse than us Durant's first 2 seasons. The question is which franchise would you prefer to work with in terms of talent, draft position, location, cap situation ETC.

Heediot
03-05-2011, 09:57 AM
If clippers had better ownership it's a toss up. I would have picked the Clippers prior to the Perkins trade. I still might pick the Clippers.

LJEATON26
03-05-2011, 12:13 PM
The Thunder without a doubt. They after the trade they have the youngest starting 5 in the league, plus capable backups. You have the best scorer in the NBA in a 22 year old kid, with an All star PG at the same age. Plus who in the hell would want to work for Donald Sterling?

DwayneMVPwade
03-05-2011, 12:25 PM
Thunder

k24magic
03-05-2011, 12:39 PM
OKC without a doubt. Why? They have two superstars in Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook. They have already been to the playoffs and nearly beat the Lakers. Durant and Westbrook are getting better every season and they're not even 23 yet I believe. They got a pretty good coach in Scott Brooks, Sam Presti knows how to evaluate talent. He got Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Green all in the first round in the draft. I like they're style of play which is uptempo. Kendrick Perkins is really going to help them in the playoffs with his championship experience he is a perfect fit for that team. What they do need is more perimeter shooting. They get that along with a little more size they will compete for the ring for more years to come. I just think that their potential is alot higher than the Clippers. Besides no one wants to work for that Clipper front office unless Donald Sterling isn't there.

masalex1205
03-05-2011, 01:06 PM
Thunder w/o a doubt.

Durant's style of play is not a susceptible to aging while, although Blake Griffin has a nice well rounded game, it does rely heavily on his athleticism which cannot be sustained at this level for longer than 6-8 years max. However, he could improve his overall game as he ages (a la Kobe/Jordan) but that's a big if.

Its not so much that the Clippers don't have a bright future, they do. It's more that the Thunder have a good-stud young player with a team personality at every position. With a leader like Durant the sky is the limit.

masalex1205
03-05-2011, 01:06 PM
Also, forgot to mention that elephant in the room: Donald Sterling...he has crippled that franchise w/ his shenanigans.

king4day
03-05-2011, 01:14 PM
Thunder. We don't know what Griffin will be yet. He's athletic. Amar'e was too but became a better shooter and his IQ improved.

Durant is close to being the face of the league and I don't know if I can see Griffin there.

king4day
03-05-2011, 01:15 PM
Thunder w/o a doubt.

Durant's style of play is not a susceptible to aging while, although Blake Griffin has a nice well rounded game, it does rely heavily on his athleticism which cannot be sustained at this level for longer than 6-8 years max. However, he could improve his overall game as he ages (a la Kobe/Jordan) but that's a big if.

Its not so much that the Clippers don't have a bright future, they do. It's more that the Thunder have a good-stud young player with a team personality at every position. With a leader like Durant the sky is the limit.

Plus Durant doesn't have that major injury under his belt. Griffin's knee would be a problem in the future.

eggy111
03-05-2011, 01:39 PM
People vastly underrate eric gordon, I have him as a top five sg in the nba considering his potential which he hasn't even reached yet.

JOSKOMANG4
03-05-2011, 01:44 PM
Thunder b/c they have a better owner!!!!!

To add....

1) A Great starting Lineup: C) Perkins PF) Ibaka SF) Durant PG) Westbrook. A great bench w/youth( Harden,Mullins,Aldrich,Nate Robinson,Sefolosha,Maynor) along with veteran leader(Collison & Ivey). Personally, I would bring in a veteran guy to start at SG for them; Anthony Parker from the Cavs. More of a distributor than a shooter.

IndiansFan337
03-05-2011, 04:08 PM
Thunder, no doubt about it. They are a lot deeper than the Clippers, and have already proven to be good.

I do think that extension for Perkins was a mistake. Not the fact that they gave him an extension, but the length and amount. He may be young, but he has a lot of miles on his legs...And $9 million a year for a guy who will get you, at most, 10/8 is not a good investment. I think they shouldn't have offered him more than $6 or maybe $7 million. I was very surprised the usually frugal OKC management awarded him with that fat extension.