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View Full Version : Should Grant Hill be on the All-Defensive team?



sunsfan88
02-21-2011, 05:51 PM
Grant Hill, Elite Defender of NBA's Best Players

In his press conference after the Phoenix Suns beat the Utah Jazz this week, Alvin Gentry interrupted himself to sing the praises of Grant Hill . Hill, with some help from that great defender Steve Nash , held All-Star Deron Williams to 2-12 shooting and came up with a big stop in the final seconds of the game. All in a day’s work for Hill.

“I can’t say enough about Grant and I don’t think he gets the credit,” Gentry extolled, “I still say that if anyone should be on All-Defensive Team, it should be him. I’ll continue to say that no one out there asks a guy to do more.”

Grant Hill has turned himself into one of the top wing defenders in the league and the numbers prove it. He’s successfully guarded everyone from Derrick Rose ,who scored 35 points but needed 33 shots to do it, to Blake Griffin, who was out-worked by Hill’s physicality and held in check for an entire half of basketball.

Preparation

Grant Hill isn’t a guy who spends hours pouring over film before each match-up. He doesn’t have to. Aside from a review of the recent scouting report, Hill has all the information he needs indexed in his head.

“I like to think I can watch a guy play and figure his game out…The guys you worry about are the guys you don’t know. The guys that are new,” Grant explained about his process.

“It’s really all about knowing the tendencies of your opponent. Tyreke Evans , he wants to get in the paint use his strength and his size so he’s going to herky-jerky and dance with the ball…A guy like Monta Ellis likes to go right, hard, likes to go left, pull up…Durant, can’t give him any space, he likes to go left pulling up.”

Suns GM Lance Blanks, who’s been around the game a long time himself, talks about what Grant’s preparation brings to the floor,”He’s at a point, a maturity point in his career, where he knows players extremely well. Knows what their tendencies are and does a great job of defending that or taking that away from guys.”

Even so, Grant is always quick to point out that you can defend a guy perfectly and he might still make shots. That’s what Kobe Bryant did to Hill and the Suns in last year’s Western Conference Finals. Defense might win championships but great offense still beats great defense…and clichés areclichésfor a reason.

3) Effort, Desire, Pride

There’s the technical aspects of playing defense and the physical talents such as quickness and size but ultimately it comes down to effort and desire and pride.

“All those things play a role but it’s got to be personal. When somebody scores on you, I get pissed off…It’s got to hurt a little bit. You got to take pride in it,” Hill said and then compared playing defense to rebounding.[/B][/B]

“I’m not a great rebounder but I would imagine those that are, it’s not sometimes all about technique. Sometimes it’s just about pride and heart and I’m just going to fight and compete and do what I have to do to get that ball. I think the same thing defensively, I’m going to make sure my guy doesn’t score.”

Numbers don't lie:

Andre Miller -

Grant Hill has owned Andre Miller ever since Game 2 of last year's Western Conference playoff series against the Trailblazers. It was Alvin Gentry that made the switch and assigned Hill to cover Miller after Miller torched the Suns for 31 points in a Game 1 victory. Miller quietly faded into the background as Hill's size and length kept him from penetrating as he had in Game 1, he struggled shooting the ball and couldn't find space against the then 37-year-old defender.

This year, the story is the same. In three meetings Grant held Miller to under his season average numbers for a few vital offensive statistics. In their first two matchups - Grant allowed Miller to only score 10 points in those contests, and limited his FGA's to well under his average mark all while forcing three turnovers from Miller as well in each game.

Derrick Rose -

The Suns have seen the Chicago Bulls and Derrick Rose only one time so far this year. It was a game where Derrick Rose put up 35 points while being guarded by Grant Hill, but he also played season high 50:19 minutes.

Despite having 35 points Rose was defended well by Hill as it took him 33 shot attempts to hit that number. He was held to 14-33 (.424) shooting and was just 1-5 from three. Oh yeah ,Hill put in 27 points of his own on 12-20 shooting.

Kevin Durant -

Kevin Durant is the pinnacle and definition of ‘elite scoring' in the NBA and we've seen Grant hold his own twice now this season against him and he dropped 30 points and 11 rebounds on KD's head too.

That was in their first meeting on December 19, 2010 Kevin Durant logged 43 minutes and put in 28 points but on an 8-19 (.421) shooting night where he nailed only 1-6 from three-point range. Playing man-to-man Grant was limiting Durant in his driving options and also did a terrific job denying Durant the ball early in the Thunder's offense all game long. But when the team switched from a man defense to a zone defense in the 4th quarter, Durant went off for 10 points.

Their second meeting on February 4 was yet another impressive defensive effort by Grant Hill. In this game Durant was 8-16, he did not take as many shots as he usually does and it was because of Hill's ball denial and aggressiveness on defense.

We'll see Hill take on Durant two more times this year and trust me, when you start to look for Grant Hill's defense as you're watching, it's very easy to find.

Monta Ellis -

Monta Ellis is the League's third leading scorer at the moment and three times we've seen Monta play against the Suns this year. In the first meeting, the Suns played predominately a zone defense and Monta Ellis went off for 38 points picking apart the defense and driving to the basket at will. But in the next two meeting it was a very different story.

The second time around Grant was given the assignment to guard Ellis and was extremely effective. Ellis jacked up 17 shots and only hit five, he still ended up scoring 21 points thanks to 13 trips to the line. For the game Ellis shot a very poor 29% from the field and visibly struggled to isolate and drive on Grant. Was it just an off shooting night for Monta? Maybe, because in Ellis' very next game, a win against the Denver Nuggets he drained a whopping 16-30 (.533) for 37 points and looked unstoppable.

But then what would explain the fact that the Warriors game after that was again against the Phoenix Suns and again it was Grant Hill on Monta Ellis. Ellis finished the game with just eight points on 4-13 (.308).

Blake Griffin:

When the Suns played the Clippers in December, Griffin had just 9 pts in the 2nd half when Hill started guarding him as prior to the 1st half when Blake put up 19 pts. Not to mention Hill was overmatched with Griffin's size.

In the chart below we see details of Hill's key defensive match-ups this season. Only LeBron James got the better of Grant.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/547824/GHD2.png

http://arizona.sbnation.com/phoenix-suns/2011/2/18/1990398/grant-hill-elite-defender-of-nbas-best-players

Create
02-21-2011, 05:56 PM
IMO I think he should be.

Stats say so.

sunsfan88
02-21-2011, 06:05 PM
IMO I think he should be.

Stats say so.

Yea I hope he does too. He's overcome so much and he's playing at such a high level, he deserves it.

poleandreel
02-21-2011, 06:12 PM
lebron is a better defensive small forward. Other than lebron, i think hill is the most deserving

Madtown22
02-21-2011, 06:14 PM
No

Gram
02-21-2011, 06:25 PM
Grant Hill should be a Hall of Famer. ****ing injuries.

king4day
02-21-2011, 06:50 PM
I'd need to see his competition.

There's 1st team and 2nd team if I'm not mistaken so it'll be hard for him not to get on it somehow.

EDIT: Added a poll

hyb152
02-21-2011, 07:07 PM
No

Yes. End of story. You just lost.

hugepatsfan
02-21-2011, 07:35 PM
His advanced defensive stats are not good (111 defensive rating, 0.9 defensive win shares). But that list you gave is very impressive.

sunsfan88
02-21-2011, 08:45 PM
EDIT: Added a poll

O yea, I should have probably added a poll.

Rivera
02-21-2011, 08:49 PM
His advanced defensive stats are not good (111 defensive rating, 0.9 defensive win shares). But that list you gave is very impressive.

its hard judging people in defense by advanced stats....d raiting is largely on team defense and the suns arent really considered a defensive team

bom tenson
02-21-2011, 09:43 PM
ehh theres better

tredigs
02-21-2011, 09:52 PM
Lebron James, Igoudala, Kirilenko, Kevin Durant and Gerald Wallace are all far better defenders at the 3, and a number of others are arguably better as well. Not to mention there's a horde of PF's he'd have to jump (two forwards get the nod on the 1st and 2nd team).

He's been great - especially nearing 40 years old - but no, absolutely not.

thekmp211
02-21-2011, 10:31 PM
^^ he's up there, but at 38 its hard to be a top defender on the wing.

not to mention, all-defensive teams are almost always made up of "best defending all-star caliber players." non big names rarely make the team. gotta love grant hill, though.

Chronz
02-21-2011, 10:59 PM
Lets just compare Hill to the guy I consider the best or atleast among the very best man defenders (hes also a superior help defender but dont got the stats on that) Andre Iggy

In Isolation:
Grant Hill allows opp to shoot 35.6%, Iggy 36.7%. Iggy fouls less and forces 1 on 1 turnovers at nearly double the rate. PPP .72 VS .80 - EDGE:IGGY

In the Post:
Hill allows 42.3FG%, to Iggy's 30FG%, however Iggy tends to be more aggressive in pushing out and reaching and as a result fouls alot more, PPP is much closer than FG% shows, its still an edge for Iggy however. .85 vs .76

Overall
Iggy ranks in the top12 in PPP, Hill ranks 61st but as many have noted he defends all sorts of positions. Without taking into account the strength of the opponent its inconclusive but based on raw stats Iggy wins. However a 61st ranking for his age and defensive versatility is impressive.

sunsfan88
02-21-2011, 11:01 PM
.

sunsfan88
02-22-2011, 05:45 AM
Lebron James, Igoudala, Kirilenko, Kevin Durant and Gerald Wallace are all far better defenders at the 3, and a number of others are arguably better as well. Not to mention there's a horde of PF's he'd have to jump (two forwards get the nod on the 1st and 2nd team).

He's been great - especially nearing 40 years old - but no, absolutely not.

I agree LeBron is better. But Igoudala and him are about the same. Kirilenko is too slow to be considered. Wallace?! Durant is a good defender, not a great one.

dodie53
02-22-2011, 07:24 AM
go hill go

sunsfan88
02-25-2011, 04:11 AM
He held Joe Johnson to just 13 pts & 4 turnovers in the win over Atlanta on Wednesday.

The list of superstars he shuts down just seems to get longer & longer.

DoJoTheSlasher
02-25-2011, 05:36 AM
Shawn Marion is better by far....... He locked down Wade, Melo, Bron, Durant and Kobe in EVERY matchup last year and is still an elite defender.

Ebbs
02-25-2011, 05:37 AM
all 2nd

HakeemTheDream
02-25-2011, 05:55 AM
Lets just compare Hill to the guy I consider the best or atleast among the very best man defenders (hes also a superior help defender but dont got the stats on that) Andre Iggy

In Isolation:
Grant Hill allows opp to shoot 35.6%, Iggy 36.7%. Iggy fouls less and forces 1 on 1 turnovers at nearly double the rate. PPP .72 VS .80 - EDGE:IGGY

In the Post:
Hill allows 42.3FG%, to Iggy's 30FG%, however Iggy tends to be more aggressive in pushing out and reaching and as a result fouls alot more, PPP is much closer than FG% shows, its still an edge for Iggy however. .85 vs .76

Overall
Iggy ranks in the top12 in PPP, Hill ranks 61st but as many have noted he defends all sorts of positions. Without taking into account the strength of the opponent its inconclusive but based on raw stats Iggy wins. However a 61st ranking for his age and defensive versatility is impressive.

+1

I want to add that opponents score 2.1 points MORE per 48 minutes when Hill is on the floor this season. And opponents score 5.1 points LESS per 48 minutes when Iggy is on the floor.

So I'm just not buying this Grant Hill should be all team defense talk. Not to mention Kobe had his best series against the Suns last year. And from what I remember, Grant Hill might not even be the best defender on his own team because Jared Dudley did a better job on Kobe. Opponents score 5 points LESS per 48 minutes when Dudley is on the floor this season.

CityofChaos
02-25-2011, 06:01 AM
One of the better videos Ive seen of a player that plays excellent defense:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh1f2wwIouE

sunsfan88
03-09-2011, 06:52 PM
Update on the recent victim of Grant Hill: KEVIN DURANT!!!


The Suns lost in overtime to the Thunder but not because of Kevin Durant, who had his worst shooting game (21.4 percent, 3 of 14 from the field) in 136 games. Durant did not make a shot until there was 1:48 remaining in the first half and missed a potential game winner at the end of his scoreless fourth quarter. With the score tied and 9.2 seconds to go, Hill played Durant over the top, fought through a Serge Ibaka screen, met Durant at his catch 30 feet from the basket and got him to take a 22-foot fadeaway.

Also Hill held Kevin Martin to 5-16 shooting 17 pts and forced 2 turnovers.

It'd be a crime to not have Hill on the all defense team.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/2011/03/07/20110307phoenix-suns-grant-hill-merit-defensive-honor.html#ixzz1G95AxFGp

sunsfan88
03-19-2011, 07:21 PM
If the Suns were submitting an All-Defensive Team campaign video for Grant Hill to voting NBA coaches, Golden State's Monta Ellis would be the star. In the past three of Golden State's four losses to Phoenix this season, Hill primarily has defended Ellis, who has made 12 of 41 shots and posted two of his four lowest-scoring games (eight points twice) of the season. Ellis entered Friday tied for sixth in the NBA in scoring.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/2011/03/18/20110318phoenix-suns-win-golden-state-warriors.html#ixzz1H5fyXzvw

sunsfan88
04-19-2011, 03:31 AM
Grant was 7th in voting for Defensive Player of the Year and led all SFs.

Means he beat out LeBron James, Andre Igoudala and Luol Deng.

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PaulCoro/125665

FrenchSunsFan
04-19-2011, 06:34 AM
I vote Hill too.

bholly
04-19-2011, 07:00 AM
Grant was 7th in voting for Defensive Player of the Year and led all SFs.

Means he beat out LeBron James, Andre Igoudala and Luol Deng.

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PaulCoro/125665

I can't objectively say whether I think he should or not. Even though he's one of my favourite players, I'm a Sixers/Iggy fan.

But for what it's worth, DPOY voting is a significantly imperfect indicator, because there's different voting systems (DPOY is selected by broadcasters + sportswriters, All Defensive team is selected by head coaches). In 1986 (Alvin Robertson) and 1995 (Dikembe Mutombo) the DPOY didn't even make the team, let alone the 7th in voting.

NYKalltheway
04-19-2011, 08:34 AM
2nd team not 1st team...

Duncan = Donkey
04-19-2011, 08:44 AM
Well if he finished 1st among SF's in DPOY, he should absolutely be on the 1st team. If he doesn't, it just wouldn't make any sense at all.

As usual they will probably just just give it to a superstar who doesn't deserve though.

JordansBulls
04-19-2011, 08:47 AM
I just want to know how you end up with more votes for DPOY but yet don't make the 1st team?

daleja424
04-19-2011, 09:04 AM
no... even the graph you showed me isnt really all that impressive... only guys he really HELD DOWN this year were Melo and Dirk. Everyone else was right around their season stats or better...

There are also MANY better candidates at the forward spot...

Hawkeye15
04-19-2011, 09:15 AM
I would be hard pressed to put Hill ahead of Iggy, and LeBron. But he deserves some consideration for the 2nd team for sure.

I will add, what he is doing for his age is extremely impressive.

PHX2daDEATH
04-19-2011, 09:28 AM
Yes, he does.. Anybody who watched the Suns season will say he Deserves to be 1st team, anybody who didn't probably won't because its hard to believe a 38 year old who missed about 5 seasons due to injuries could ever come back to that good... i think ive stated before the guy is a HOFer in my book.

Double_R
04-19-2011, 10:13 AM
I would be hard pressed to put Hill ahead of Iggy, and LeBron. But he deserves some consideration for the 2nd team for sure.

I will add, what he is doing for his age is extremely impressive.

He has legs like a 25 year old, since all he did was sit on the bench in Orlando and ruin TMAC's prime years. Met him a few times, don't get why people act like he deserves anything. Dude was an absolute tool bag all 3 times I met him. Now poor Steve Francis, Young DH, Garrity were all cool as could be, but Hill is a douche.

Can't stand the guy.

Hawkeye15
04-19-2011, 10:36 AM
He has legs like a 25 year old, since all he did was sit on the bench in Orlando and ruin TMAC's prime years. Met him a few times, don't get why people act like he deserves anything. Dude was an absolute tool bag all 3 times I met him. Now poor Steve Francis, Young DH, Garrity were all cool as could be, but Hill is a douche.

Can't stand the guy.

that being said, I don't care if he sat on the bench for 10 years. Being that age, and moving like that is very impressive.

Swashcuff
04-19-2011, 10:51 AM
He has legs like a 25 year old, since all he did was sit on the bench in Orlando and ruin TMAC's prime years. Met him a few times, don't get why people act like he deserves anything. Dude was an absolute tool bag all 3 times I met him. Now poor Steve Francis, Young DH, Garrity were all cool as could be, but Hill is a douche.

Can't stand the guy.

Did he hit on your girl?

Mile High Champ
04-19-2011, 11:03 AM
I would be hard pressed to put Hill ahead of Iggy, and LeBron. But he deserves some consideration for the 2nd team for sure.

I will add, what he is doing for his age is extremely impressive.

Agreed, I would put Iggy ahead of Hill at the moment and than put Hill on the 2nd team. But as you said, what he has done at his age is simply a feat in itself.

Missing56&33
04-19-2011, 11:05 AM
why not? He's had a bad break(no pun intended) in what should have been a hall of fame career.

Chronz
04-19-2011, 11:07 AM
I just want to know how you end up with more votes for DPOY but yet don't make the 1st team?
Difference of opinion maybe?

KnicksR4Real
04-19-2011, 11:12 AM
no

ManRam
04-19-2011, 11:42 AM
Not at the expense of Iguodala. I think he, Garnett and Howard should be locks. Tony Allen may be more deserving, as may LeBron or Rondo. He may make it, but I honestly don't think he does (and I love the man). There are a lot of better defenders.

gsgs49
04-19-2011, 11:53 AM
He has been amazing defensively all year long but there is a lot better wing defenders Iggy,Lebron,Deng,Wallace etc..
BTW this diagram is useless dude,the majority of numbers are wrong for example Kevin Durant season average is 27.7 points on 46.2% shooting not 29.1 points on 47.4% shooting.
Also my man Dirk Nowitzki averages 21.8 points on 51.7% shooting in 4 games against the suns not 18 points on 41.7% shooting:laugh2: and Hill played in all of the four games.

sunsfan88
04-19-2011, 03:35 PM
+1

I want to add that opponents score 2.1 points MORE per 48 minutes when Hill is on the floor this season. And opponents score 5.1 points LESS per 48 minutes when Iggy is on the floor.

So I'm just not buying this Grant Hill should be all team defense talk. Not to mention Kobe had his best series against the Suns last year. And from what I remember, Grant Hill might not even be the best defender on his own team because Jared Dudley did a better job on Kobe. Opponents score 5 points LESS per 48 minutes when Dudley is on the floor this season.

Yea but you have to understand that Hill is a starter. Whenever he is on the court, he's with awful defenders like Nash & Carter.

When Dudley is on the court he's with good defenders like Childress & Pietrus because all those players come off the bench.

Double_R
04-19-2011, 03:53 PM
Did he hit on your girl?
You know, he was nicer to her, but still kind of a dcik.

I met him at a black tie event, was really blah, thought you know, maybe he was tired and needed a nap

Then ran in to him at the bar side of Carrabba's with Steve Francis, DH, and Garrity... was bs-ing with Steve and Grant came up and was like Steve stop talking to that dude, lets go. Thought well he's a douche. Steve Francis was rad though.

Then my friend works for the film crew at the Magic and he said dude was a straight douche.

My other boy is a valet at this hotel in downtown Orlando and he was valeting his car and said he was really short and precocious. Dude was a huge Magic fan and kind of shot him down for any dialog what so ever.

Then after he got healthy, he bailed on the Magic for the Suns because of a few dollars and he wanted to win, well the jokes on him again there. He should have stayed with the Magic for the min based on how much they payed him to sit on the bench. Just don't like the dude at all.

Swashcuff
04-19-2011, 04:08 PM
Yea but you have to understand that Hill is a starter. Whenever he is on the court, he's with awful defenders like Nash & Carter.

When Dudley is on the court he's with good defenders like Childress & Pietrus because all those players come off the bench.

Andre Iguodala is also a starter.

Raph12
04-19-2011, 04:27 PM
G - Rondo
G - Iggy
F - ?
F - Garnett
C - Superman

He'd be competing with Deng & Lebron for it...

Baller1
04-19-2011, 04:29 PM
I think so, it's pretty incredible what he's been able to do at his age.