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View Full Version : Kobe only has one MVP; Does that speak to the depth of the league?



JasonJohnHorn
02-20-2011, 07:11 PM
When Bird and Magic were in their prime, they shared the MVP awards with each other, and Moses Malone... until MJ came along, and he snagged FIVE!!!!!! Yeah, every other year the voters showed some love to Hakeem, Malone, Robinson and Barkley... but some might say they were just tired of voting for MJ


Kobe though has been playing amazing basketball for years now. When Shaq was on the team, they have two MVPs, but Shaq has been gone now for SEVEN years now, and in that time Kobe has only won one MVP award.

Since Kobe entered the league 10 different players have won the award in 13 years! The 13 years before that there were only 7 players to have shared the award, and over 22 seasons before (and first two season of) Kobe's career, only 11 players shared the award? 11 players made up 24 years of MVPs! But almost as many have won the award over the span of Kobe's career.


Its clear there is no shortage of great talent in the league. Shaq over his career has been one of the most dominant forces. Duncan and Garnett are respectively two of the best players in the history of the game at their position. LBJ and Kobe, I think it is fair to say (though LBJ doesnt yet have the history behind him) would be able to go toe-to-toe with the likes of MJ, Bird and Magic. But people often say the league isnt as deep as it once was. Looking at the MVP award history over the last decade, it seems to suggest that the league is much deeper.

So is the league that much deeper now? I firmly believe that while the league may be a little thin at center, it is deeper than it ever has been at PG, PF, SF and maybe even SG and that the product the NBA puts out today is as good as its ever been!

Am I on crack? Or is there something to be said about the diversity of the MVP award winners?

Side note: Not a Kobe fan, but the guy is amazingly talented, any league where that guy only comes away with one MVP award in 13 years has got to be pretty deep.

stawka
02-20-2011, 07:21 PM
Kobe has 1 MVP, Shaq has 1 MVP. The MVP voting is a joke

UKblazers
02-20-2011, 07:26 PM
It says more about the mvp voting system, he should of won the award when he put up 35 a gm sharing the backourt with smush parker. When he finally got the award it should of gone to cp3

Bruno
02-20-2011, 07:32 PM
Kobe has 1 MVP, Shaq has 1 MVP. The MVP voting is a joke

Agreed.

brodawgs
02-20-2011, 07:33 PM
Well the MVP voting system is a little bit messed up, but this also says that Kobe just isn't as good as everyone makes him out to be. Obviously he is very talented, but he doesn't do much outside of being an excellent shooter and for the most part clutch. If you compare him with a guy like Lebron, poised to likely win his third MVP, the only thing Kobe is better at is pure shooting.

ManRam
02-20-2011, 07:40 PM
I think it does. I do think the time period that Kobe was undoubtedly the best player in the league was only for a very short period of time...and that was during a time where he didn't have a great supporting cast like he did with Shaq and like he does have now. There are basically three Kobe eras: Shaq, post-Shaq, and Pau.

~Shaq era: Kobe wasn't even the best player on his team. That was also when Duncan and KG are undoubtedly better players.

~Post-Shaq: leaves in 05, the team doesn't have much success, allowing for Nash and Dirk to steal some MVPs. Kobe probably is the best player in the league now, but it's close. Wade, Dirk, Nash, LeBron etc are all great players now.

I think he's the best player for the 05/06 to the 07/08 season. That's a 3 window period, and even then it's close. There were and are a ton of great players.

~Pau-era: LeBron takes over the best player in the 08-09 season, coincidently this is Pau's first full season in LA (I know some disagree about LeBron, but irregardless it's VERY close).

He was trumped by the great big men in the early stage of his career, he probably was the best in the middle part, but his team wasn't, allowing Dirk and Nash to get the awards, and then LeBron enters scene...

I think Duncan, Shaq, Kobe and LeBron all go down as top 10-12 players ever. So yes, there was a great amount of competition. KG is up there very high too...and there's no denial about how great AI and Nash were too.

MVP doesn't go to the best player...which I sometimes am okay with and sometimes I am not. Kobe should have 2-3 MVPs just based on how great he is...but you can argue he really did only deserve one :shrug:

Bruno
02-20-2011, 07:45 PM
I think it does. I do think the time period that Kobe was undoubtedly the best player in the league was only for a very short period of time...and that was during a time where he didn't have a great supporting cast like he did with Shaq and like he does have now. There are basically three Kobe eras: Shaq, post-Shaq, and Pau.

~Shaq era: Kobe wasn't even the best player on his team. That was also when Duncan and KG are undoubtedly better players.

~Post-Shaq: leaves in 05, the team doesn't have much success, allowing for Nash and Dirk to steal some MVPs. Kobe probably is the best player in the league now, but it's close. Wade, Dirk, Nash, LeBron etc are all great players now.

I think he's the best player for the 05/06 to the 07/08 season. That's a 3 window period, and even then it's close. There were and are a ton of great players.

~Pau-era: LeBron takes over the best player in the 08-09 season, coincidently this is Pau's first full season in LA (I know some disagree about LeBron, but irregardless it's VERY close).

He was trumped by the great big men in the early stage of his career, he probably was the best in the middle part, but his team wasn't, allowing Dirk and Nash to get the awards, and then LeBron enters scene...

I think Duncan, Shaq, Kobe and LeBron all go down as top 10-12 players ever. So yes, there was a great amount of competition. KG is up there very high too...and there's no denial about how great AI and Nash were too.

MVP doesn't go to the best player...which I sometimes am okay with and sometimes I am not. Kobe should have 2-3 MVPs just based on how great he is...but you can argue he really did only deserve one :shrug:

Great post Man. :clap:

LeBron will win rings. It's just a matter of time before we start asking "Is LeBron top 10 all-time". If you can't accept that you're just in denial or a LeBron hater. IMO all four of those guys go down as top 10 when it's all said an done (probably not forever- you know some kid whos only 5-15 years old now will end up on that list eventually, but when they retire, they will all be considered top 10-12, as you said).

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 07:45 PM
kobe has 1 mvp, shaq has 1 mvp. The mvp voting is a joke

+1

Avenged
02-20-2011, 07:49 PM
Says more about how the voters decide who wins it each season. If Kobe had a great team during his peak of his prime when Nash and Dirk won, then he would probably have around 3. The upcoming of Lebron was also a major factor for him only getting 1, who would have thought a talent like him would emerge?

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 07:53 PM
I think it does. I do think the time period that Kobe was undoubtedly the best player in the league was only for a very short period of time...and that was during a time where he didn't have a great supporting cast like he did with Shaq and like he does have now. There are basically three Kobe eras: Shaq, post-Shaq, and Pau.

~Shaq era: Kobe wasn't even the best player on his team. That was also when Duncan and KG are undoubtedly better players.

~Post-Shaq: leaves in 05, the team doesn't have much success, allowing for Nash and Dirk to steal some MVPs. Kobe probably is the best player in the league now, but it's close. Wade, Dirk, Nash, LeBron etc are all great players now.

I think he's the best player for the 05/06 to the 07/08 season. That's a 3 window period, and even then it's close. There were and are a ton of great players.

~Pau-era: LeBron takes over the best player in the 08-09 season, coincidently this is Pau's first full season in LA (I know some disagree about LeBron, but irregardless it's VERY close).

He was trumped by the great big men in the early stage of his career, he probably was the best in the middle part, but his team wasn't, allowing Dirk and Nash to get the awards, and then LeBron enters scene...

I think Duncan, Shaq, Kobe and LeBron all go down as top 10-12 players ever. So yes, there was a great amount of competition. KG is up there very high too...and there's no denial about how great AI and Nash were too.

MVP doesn't go to the best player...which I sometimes am okay with and sometimes I am not. Kobe should have 2-3 MVPs just based on how great he is...but you can argue he really did only deserve one :shrug:

Kobe was the best player since 2003,...shaq said that kobe was the best player in 2001 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRewC5ZJ-XA
plus, many people thought kobe was the best player all the way till 2010

ManRam
02-20-2011, 07:58 PM
Kobe was the best player since 2003,...shaq said that kobe was the best player in 2001 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRewC5ZJ-XA
plus, many people thought kobe was the best player all the way till 2010

A) Good for Shaq, that's one person's opinion...and he said it when he was playing with Kobe. What else do you expect? He was trying to sound humble too. You will never convince me that Kobe was better than Shaq those years...I thought it was pretty obvious when I was watching them 10 years ago.
B) I admitted that people think Kobe was better longer than what I'm saying...but either way, you can't deny how close it was. You also probably won't convince many people that Kobe deserved the MVP the years LeBron won it. It gets nit-picky, and that does speak to the depth of the league.

I'm taking Duncan and KG over Kobe from 03-05 as well. And again, I'm not saying that it is a fact that Kobe wasn't as good as them...but if anything, it is very close and not a consensus thought.

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 08:03 PM
A) Good for Shaq, that's one person's opinion...and he said it when he was playing with Kobe. What else do you expect? He was trying to sound humble too. You will never convince me that Kobe was better than Shaq those years...I thought it was pretty obvious when I was watching them 10 years ago.
B) I admitted that people think Kobe was better longer than what I'm saying...but either way, you can't deny how close it was. You also probably won't convince many people that Kobe deserved the MVP the years LeBron won it. It gets nit-picky, and that does speak to the depth of the league.

I'm taking Duncan and KG over Kobe from 03-05 as well. And again, I'm not saying that it is a fact that Kobe wasn't as good as them...but if anything, it is very close and not a consensus thought.

shaq was better than kobe until 2003, not the whole time they were together,

another point, kobe deserved the 06 mvp, 35, 5, 5 , and such a crappy team got 7th seed,
plus the 03 season 30, 7, 6

shep33
02-20-2011, 08:03 PM
Kobe has 1 MVP, Shaq has 1 MVP. The MVP voting is a joke

this... it just doesn't make much sense.

Enemey
02-20-2011, 08:06 PM
In 2003 Kobe avg 30-7-6 No MVP
In 2006 Kobe avg 35-5-4 No MVP

Kobe should have won atleast 2-3 more MVP's.

HakeemTheDream
02-20-2011, 08:08 PM
I think it speaks to the fact the MVP award is so flawed.

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 08:09 PM
14 years, 1 mvp

shep33
02-20-2011, 08:15 PM
It seems really strange to me that Shaq and Kobe can create a dynasty, 3 rings... and during that reign they combined for 1 mvp. Just doesn't add up, and really that's when the MVP became a joke to me. I mean Shaq has 1... we're talking about one of the most dominant players ever to play the game... has 1. Kobe who has really ruled the past decade also has 1. However, they have Finals MVPs though, which is more of an accomplishment now in my eyes.

Enemey
02-20-2011, 08:17 PM
A) Good for Shaq, that's one person's opinion...and he said it when he was playing with Kobe. What else do you expect? He was trying to sound humble too. You will never convince me that Kobe was better than Shaq those years...I thought it was pretty obvious when I was watching them 10 years ago.
B) I admitted that people think Kobe was better longer than what I'm saying...but either way, you can't deny how close it was. You also probably won't convince many people that Kobe deserved the MVP the years LeBron won it. It gets nit-picky, and that does speak to the depth of the league.

I'm taking Duncan and KG over Kobe from 03-05 as well. And again, I'm not saying that it is a fact that Kobe wasn't as good as them...but if anything, it is very close and not a consensus thought.

In the 2001 playoffs Kobe was the reason the Lakers swept the spurs. He dropped 48 points game 1 on the road and thats coming off a 45 point game vs Kings. Kobe was Leading the Undefeated Lakers in the playoffs up until the Finals Where Shaq took over.

HakeemTheDream
02-20-2011, 08:19 PM
It's pretty obvious that Iverson robbed Shaq in 01' because Shaq plays with Kobe. That stupid way of measuring the MVP doesn't account for team depth, it only cares about your next 1 or 2 best players.

ManRam
02-20-2011, 08:21 PM
In 2003 Kobe avg 30-7-6 No MVP
In 2006 Kobe avg 35-5-4 No MVP

Kobe should have won atleast 2-3 more MVP's.

In 2003, Duncan took his team to a 60 win season and a #1 overall seed. The Lakers were the 5 seed. Find out how many players on 5 seeded teams have won the MVP. Doubt it's many, if any at all. If you wipe team records out of the equation, there is no doubt that T-Mac had the better year than Kobe as well (a PER of 30.3, more points per game on better shooting). Duncan deserved it, however, just based on the criterion.

In 2006 the Lakers were the 7 seed. Again, no matter how great of a season he has, he's not winning an MVP on a 7 seeded team. That PPG total looks great, but Dirk did have a better all around season (team-wise, PER, WS, %s etc.).

Not many people think Kobe deserved it either of those two years. There's more than just PPG/APG/RPG...

Enemey
02-20-2011, 08:24 PM
no i think it says more that kobe isnt as good as the people sucking his balls think he is...

Yeah and Nash winning Back-to-Back MVP's with Joe Johnson, Amar'e, a prime Shawn Marion and No Finals apearance shows how really great he is. Not to mention he played with Dirk in Dallas.

Kobe Winning Back-to-Back Finals MVP is far greater than Regular season MVP and no finals appearance, (Steve Nash and Lebron James)

HakeemTheDream
02-20-2011, 08:25 PM
People favor guards too much. If we're going to talk about MVP robberies, talk about Duncan or Shaq.

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 08:26 PM
In 2003, Duncan took his team to a 60 win season and a #1 overall seed. The Lakers were the 5 seed. Find out how many players on 5 seeded teams have won the MVP. Doubt it's many, if any at all. If you wipe team records out of the equation, there is no doubt that T-Mac had the better year than Kobe as well (a PER of 30.3, more points per game on better shooting). Duncan deserved it, however, just based on the criterion.

In 2006 the Lakers were the 7 seed. Again, no matter how great of a season he has, he's not winning an MVP on a 7 seeded team. That PPG total looks great, but Dirk did have a better all around season (team-wise, PER, WS, %s etc.).

Not many people think Kobe deserved it either of those two years. There's more than just PPG/APG/RPG...

you do know kobe played with shaq in 03, less points, so 30.0 points per game with shaq who averaged 27.5 is very impressive

ManRam
02-20-2011, 08:27 PM
In the 2001 playoffs Kobe was the reason the Lakers swept the spurs. He dropped 48 points game 1 on the road and thats coming off a 45 point game vs Kings. Kobe was Leading the Undefeated Lakers in the playoffs up until the Finals Where Shaq took over.

Really...he was THE reason they won...just him? People also are getting caught up in PPG...which most people don't think equates to the best. Shaq was far more of an influence in all aspects of the game. His dominance was unparalleled in his prime...and his defense was a force and a game-changer.

Shaq had more PPG in those playoffs, he had a PER of 28.7 compared to Kobe's 25.0. He played more minutes, he had 15.4 rebounds a game and winshares were a wash. One series isn't going to make some one the best player for a whole season...

Again, if anything IT'S CLOSE! There is no way that a consensus stance can be found suggesting that he was the best player for more than a 2-3 window period. Consensus is the word. This is all nit-picky.

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 08:27 PM
People favor guards too much. If we're going to talk about MVP robberies, talk about Duncan.

lol which years did he get robbed in?

Albrecht Duerer
02-20-2011, 08:28 PM
It seems really strange to me that Shaq and Kobe can create a dynasty, 3 rings... and during that reign they combined for 1 mvp. Just doesn't add up, and really that's when the MVP became a joke to me. I mean Shaq has 1... we're talking about one of the most dominant players ever to play the game... has 1. Kobe who has really ruled the past decade also has 1. However, they have Finals MVPs though, which is more of an accomplishment now in my eyes.

There were questionable MVPs before that. In 1992, Barkley went to the Suns and made the Suns contenders. The Bulls had won 2 years in a row going into that year so the sportswriters were looking for a new story, a new angle on the season. And as a result, they ended up giving the MVP to Barkley. Did he deserve it? No. The NBA finals pretty much proved who the MVP was. And it was the same thing once or twice with Karl Malone winning the MVP.

And then you could even argue Jordan should have won it more before the championships. He ended up with 5 but it should have been at least 7.

Basically what Im saying is, sportswriters are really lame.

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 08:29 PM
Really...he was THE reason they won...just him? People also are getting caught up in PPG...which most people don't think equates to the best. Shaq was far more of an influence in all aspects of the game. His dominance was unparalleled in his prime...and his defense was a force and a game-changer.

Shaq had more PPG in those playoffs, he had a PER of 28.7 compared to Kobe's 25.0. He played more minutes, he had 15.4 rebounds a game and winshares were a wash. One series isn't going to make some one the best player for a whole series...

Again, if anything IT'S CLOSE! There is no way that a consensus stance can be found suggesting that he was the best player for more than a 2-3 window period. Consensus is the word. This is all nit-picky.

your making it seem like shaq was the only reason they won

HakeemTheDream
02-20-2011, 08:29 PM
lol which years did he get robbed in?

I guess it was only 07' lol (if you want to argue that then you don't understand or appreciate how good of a defender he was/is)

Shaq got robbed at least once too, likely 01'.

ManRam
02-20-2011, 08:31 PM
your making it seem like shaq was the only reason they won

No. No one player is ever the reason any team wins.

I'm saying Shaq was a better player.

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 08:31 PM
I guess it was only 07' lol (if you want to argue that then you don't understand or appreciate how good of a defender he was/is)

Shaq got robbed at least once too, likely 01'.

lol duncan only averaged 20 and 11 in 07

footballer2369
02-20-2011, 08:32 PM
Doesn't help that he was playing with a better player until late in his prime.

Enemey
02-20-2011, 08:33 PM
Really...he was THE reason they won...just him? People also are getting caught up in PPG...which most people don't think equates to the best. Shaq was far more of an influence in all aspects of the game. His dominance was unparalleled in his prime...and his defense was a force and a game-changer.

Shaq had more PPG in those playoffs, he had a PER of 28.7 compared to Kobe's 25.0. He played more minutes, he had 15.4 rebounds a game and winshares were a wash. One series isn't going to make some one the best player for a whole series...

Again, if anything IT'S CLOSE! There is no way that a consensus stance can be found suggesting that he was the best player for more than a 2-3 window period. Consensus is the word. This is all nit-picky.
Like I said Shaq Dominated the Finals but Kobe Dominated rounds 1-3 he lead the Lakers in points and assists.

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 08:33 PM
No. No one player is ever the reason any team wins.

I'm saying Shaq was a better player.

not a way way better player tho, kobe made the clutch plays, shaq was a liability in the final minutes of a game offensivly (free throw shooting)

Jenceman
02-20-2011, 08:35 PM
It speaks more to how flawed the MVP voting is. Kobe was the best player in the league from 2003 to 2008. Should have had around 3 MVPs.

Oh well though, he's already a top ten player all time, with a chance at the top 5 (and a very outside chance at top 3).

Tonji10
02-20-2011, 08:37 PM
In 2003 Kobe avg 30-7-6 No MVP
In 2006 Kobe avg 35-5-4 No MVP

Kobe should have won atleast 2-3 more MVP's.

Don't forget 2 First Team All NBA Defensive Teams, and the fact that he was discussed as being one of top 5 Defensive Player of The Year in those years as well. Someone mentioned that it isn't only about ppg, rbg and apg -- then here you go, he was first team all nba defensive teams in those two years. Neither Dirk or Nash ever achieved such a feat. I mean granted, when Dirk won, he deserved it to the fullest. But Nash's second MVP win folds under questioning.

ManRam
02-20-2011, 08:37 PM
not a way way better player tho, kobe made the clutch plays, shaq was a liability in the final minutes of a game offensivly (free throw shooting)

There are very few people who will agree with you on this. I've never really seen many people argue that Kobe was a better player when Shaq was in LA. Shaq wasn't significantly better, but he was a force unlike anything the league ever saw in his prime. They changed rules for him. He was a monster on both ends, and his impact was far more noticeable on both ends of the court. Watching Shaq in his prime was unlike anything I had ever seen, or probably will ever see again.

And you are overgeneralizing things here with your logic.

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 08:40 PM
There are very few people who will agree with you on this. I've never really seen many people argue that Kobe was a better player when Shaq was in LA. Shaq wasn't significantly better, but he was a force unlike anything the league ever saw in his prime. They changed rules for him. He was a monster on both ends, and his impact was far more noticeable on both ends of the court. Watching Shaq in his prime was unlike anything I had ever seen, or probably will ever see again.

And you are overgeneralizing things here with your logic.

i know shaq was better, but not by a mile

lakers4sho
02-20-2011, 08:41 PM
If you have P.J. ****in Brown getting more MVP votes than Colby then you know something isn't right...

Enemey
02-20-2011, 08:43 PM
i know shaq was better, but not by a mile

Agreed.

Testaverde16
02-20-2011, 08:45 PM
by the time kobe was the lone superstar on his team and deserved mvps everyone hated him. they only talked about his negatives and found reasons to not vote for him. i remember not even caring to check the year nash first won because i knew kobe was going to win and when he didnt i was just baffled.

the sports world hated kobe after the shaq divorce. it wasnt until he won again that he at least got respect again. the only reason he ended up edging out paul when he did win was that the lakers took the one seed and people realized they had made the mistake of not giving him one yet.

ManRam
02-20-2011, 08:46 PM
i know shaq was better, but not by a mile

OK. The whole point here is MVP awards and how long he was the best...

If Shaq was better at that point, then Kobe never deserved an MVP then and he wasn't the best player in the league. That's really all I'm getting at.

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 08:47 PM
by the time kobe was the lone superstar on his team and deserved mvps everyone hated him. they only talked about his negatives and found reasons to not vote for him. i remember not even caring to check the year nash first won because i knew kobe was going to win and when he didnt i was just baffled.

the sports world hated kobe after the shaq divorce. it wasnt until he won again that he at least got respect again. the only reason he ended up edging out paul when he did win was that the lakers took the one seed and people realized they had made the mistake of not giving him one yet.

plus the rape accusation, ruined his popularity for a while, if that didnt happen he woulda won in 06, no doubt

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 08:50 PM
OK. The whole point here is MVP awards and how long he was the best...

If Shaq was better at that point, then Kobe never deserved an MVP then and he wasn't the best player in the league. That's really all I'm getting at.

In 2003 kobe deserved it, he was the best player
kobe averaged 30 ppg, with shaq averaging 27.5, to average 30 a game with shaq is hard to do

cambovenzi
02-20-2011, 08:55 PM
Its speak more about the horribleness of the voting than depth imo

Cano4prez
02-20-2011, 08:56 PM
In 2003 kobe deserved it, he was the best player
kobe averaged 30 ppg, with shaq averaging 27.5, to average 30 a game with shaq is hard to do

Per/36 Shaq averaged 26.1, and Kobe averaged 26.0

shep33
02-20-2011, 08:56 PM
There were questionable MVPs before that. In 1992, Barkley went to the Suns and made the Suns contenders. The Bulls had won 2 years in a row going into that year so the sportswriters were looking for a new story, a new angle on the season. And as a result, they ended up giving the MVP to Barkley. Did he deserve it? No. The NBA finals pretty much proved who the MVP was. And it was the same thing once or twice with Karl Malone winning the MVP.

And then you could even argue Jordan should have won it more before the championships. He ended up with 5 but it should have been at least 7.

Basically what Im saying is, sportswriters are really lame.

I agree. It is definitely a flawed system.

ManRam
02-20-2011, 08:57 PM
In 2003 kobe deserved it, he was the best player
kobe averaged 30 ppg, with shaq averaging 27.5, to average 30 a game with shaq is hard to do

Well, T-Mac was better that year. So we're wiping team-success out of the way, T-Mac deserved it :shrug:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=mcgratr01&y1=2003&p2=bryanko01&y2=2003

And again, the Lakers were a 5-seed that year. No player is ever going to win an MVP on a 5-seeded team. He didn't deserve the MVP award that year. He might have been the best player, but he didn't deserve an MVP.

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 08:58 PM
Well, T-Mac was better that year. So we're wiping team-success out of the way, T-Mac deserved it :shrug:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=mcgratr01&y1=2003&p2=bryanko01&y2=2003

And again, the Lakers were a 5-seed that year. No player is ever going to win an MVP on a 5-seeded team. He didn't deserve the MVP award that year. He might have been the best player, but he didn't deserve an MVP.

kobe played with shaq, less points,
tmac played with who?

teamates make a difference in stats (check lebron and wade this year)

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 09:00 PM
Per/36 Shaq averaged 26.1, and Kobe averaged 26.0

so?

ManRam
02-20-2011, 09:03 PM
kobe played with shaq, less points,
tmac played with who?

teamates make a difference in stats (check lebron and wade this year)

You're assuming I care about PPG.

I honestly couldn't care less about points per game. It's like the 20th thing I look at when comparing players now.

T-Mac was more efficient on a poor team. It's harder to be more efficient when you don't have a great player. Sure, it inflates per game stats. I don't care about per game stats much though. Kobe should have been more efficient than T-Mac with Shaq on his team...but he wasn't.

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 09:03 PM
Per/36 Shaq averaged 26.1, and Kobe averaged 26.0

in 2002-03
kobe win shares 14.9
shaq win shares 13.2

LA_Raiders
02-20-2011, 09:03 PM
Kobe has been hated for ever... He should have 3 by now. Too much hate on him...

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 09:05 PM
You're assuming I care about PPG.

I honestly couldn't care less about points per game. It's like the 20th thing I look at when comparing players now.

but shaq also affected his rebounds too, plus how many game did the magic win that year?

ManRam
02-20-2011, 09:07 PM
but shaq also affected his rebounds too, plus how many game did the magic win that year?

The advanced stats are really what I'm pointing out there. T-Mac is better across the board in terms of advanced stats that year. I don't care much for per game stats these days...

Albrecht Duerer
02-20-2011, 09:08 PM
plus the rape accusation, ruined his popularity for a while, if that didnt happen he woulda won in 06, no doubt

One side issue that's kind of part of the Shaq thing is that the Finals loss to the Pistons probably hurt Bryant as well. Prior to that, the Lakers had won 3 with Shaq as Batman and Kobe as Robin. I think the Lakers team that lost in the finals to the Pistons is seen as having the talent to win but too many loose agendas, one of them being Kobe trying to be a Batman. I think Kobe's emergence (or desire to emerge) as a Batman is/was seen as being detrimental to the Lakers winning titles. It kind of went contra to how an MVP is often defined. And it also didnt help when Shaq won a title in Miami not long after he left the Lakers. It just enhanced the idea that Kobe was/is detrimental to winning championships.

So, it wasnt just driving away Shaq, there is, kind of, another element other than the power play that took place.

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 09:08 PM
The advanced stats are really what I'm pointing out there. T-Mac is better across the board in terms of advanced stats that year. I don't care much for per game stats these days...

its cause he didnt have a shaq type of player playing aside him
plus those stats dont tell the whole story, its also about how many games the team wins

how many games did his team win?

kobe24>lebron23
02-20-2011, 09:12 PM
No. No one player is ever the reason any team wins.

I'm saying Shaq was a better player.

During the playoffs of 01 02 no during the finals of those years yes! But not by much!

ManRam
02-20-2011, 09:17 PM
its cause he didnt have a shaq type of player playing aside him
plus those stats dont tell the whole story, its also about how many games the team wins

how many games did his team win?

That's not true. That matters for per game stats, but for advanced stats, it's not that black and white.

And if we're bring win/loss into this, that also kills Kobe's arguement. LA was a 5 seed with Shaq and Kobe. No way Kobe deserves the MVP on a 5th seeded team playing along side Shaq (regardless of who was better between the 2). LeBron is the best player in the league. Would you give him the MVP if Miami was a 5 seed? No. Kobe shouldn't have won it on a 5 seeded team either...

Duncan deserved it that year. Best record in the NBA, led the league in WS, 3rd in PER (ahead of Kobe, behind T-Mac and Shaq).

You are in the minority if you feel he deserved the MVP that year. He just flat out didn't deserve it.

hyb152
02-20-2011, 09:21 PM
Kobe has been hated for ever... He should have 3 by now. Too much hate on him...

Or maybe too much help from good teammates? We saw what happened when Kobe was by himself. 7th seed, missed the playoffs, etc. Lebron had no help and at least got triple doubles every night and actually lead his team to some success. Kobe hasnt been getting many mvps because he's more of a scorer. MVPs go to players that do it all. Look at all the Derrick Rose love for mvp this year. He's in the top 10 for both scoring and assisting. When kobe is in the top 10 for scoring as well as rebounds or assists, hit me up and inform me. But that wont be happening.

Former MVP examples:
Nash-scorer and ultimate distributor
Duncan-20+ pts every game and 10+ rebounds
Garnett-did everything for minny, even played point guard at times
Lebron-32 12 and 8 every night
Shaq-30+ pts and 12+ rebs a game

When kobe puts up numbers like those above more than a bunch of times in one season, hit me up for that too. But again... that won't be happening.

smith&wesson
02-20-2011, 09:24 PM
umm after shaq left and before gasol came to the lakers, kobe was carrying a very untalented team to the play offs by himself. he deserved the mvp award a couple times in those years but wasnt given the award because of the whole "rape" fiasco. he had to clean up his image...

he would have more if that who thing didnt happen.

NBAfan4life
02-20-2011, 09:30 PM
ManRam making a lot of sense in this thread.

I'm a huge Kobe fan have been since the begining. I think Kobe deserves more than 1 MVP, but the biggest stat that shows how flawed MVP voting drum roll is

Shaq only having 1 MVP in his entire career.

Shaq having only 1 MVP in his career says a lot. Arguably the most dominant center ever.

ManRam
02-20-2011, 09:30 PM
umm after shaq left and before gasol came to the lakers, kobe was carrying a very untalented team to the play offs by himself. he deserved the mvp award a couple times in those years but wasnt given the award because of the whole "rape" fiasco. he had to clean up his image...

he would have more if that who thing didnt happen.

There have been plenty of players who carry bad teams to the playoffs and don't win the MVP.

Find me a single MVP winner the last 20 or so years that won an MVP carrying a bad team to a 5-7 seed? Kobe wasn't getting screwed because of the rape thing, he wasn't winning because that's how the award goes. Poor record: no MVP. Plain and simple. Whether that should be how it works or not isn't something I'll get into, but Kobe wasn't getting abnormal or unfair treatment.

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 09:31 PM
Or maybe too much help from good teammates? We saw what happened when Kobe was by himself. 7th seed, missed the playoffs, etc. Lebron had no help and at least got triple doubles every night and actually lead his team to some success. Kobe hasnt been getting many mvps because he's more of a scorer. MVPs go to players that do it all. Look at all the Derrick Rose love for mvp this year. He's in the top 10 for both scoring and assisting. When kobe is in the top 10 for scoring as well as rebounds or assists, hit me up and inform me. But that wont be happening.

Former MVP examples:
Nash-scorer and ultimate distributor
Duncan-20+ pts every game and 10+ rebounds
Garnett-did everything for minny, even played point guard at times
Lebron-32 12 and 8 every night
Shaq-30+ pts and 12+ rebs a game

When kobe puts up numbers like those above more than a bunch of times in one season, hit me up for that too. But again... that won't be happening.

in 04-05 kobe missed 16 games, thats why they missed the playoffs that year, and the west is much tougher than the east you know

Cano4prez
02-20-2011, 09:35 PM
in 04-05 kobe missed 16 games, thats why they missed the playoffs that year, and the west is much tougher than the east you know

And what about 05-07? I think Wade should have won the 08-09 MVP, but the Heat were only the fifth seed

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 09:37 PM
And what about 05-07? I think Wade should have won the 08-09 MVP, but the Heat were only the fifth seed

in 05-06 and 06-07, kobe did all he could do
35.4, 5.3, 4.5 (in playoffs he hit a gamewinner, and had a 50 point game)
31.6, 5.7, 5.4

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 09:39 PM
And what about 05-07? I think Wade should have won the 08-09 MVP, but the Heat were only the fifth seed

the cavs had number 1 seed in nba, so no

JasonJohnHorn
02-20-2011, 09:40 PM
I think it does. I do think the time period that Kobe was undoubtedly the best player in the league was only for a very short period of time...and that was during a time where he didn't have a great supporting cast like he did with Shaq and like he does have now. There are basically three Kobe eras: Shaq, post-Shaq, and Pau.

~Shaq era: Kobe wasn't even the best player on his team. That was also when Duncan and KG are undoubtedly better players.

~Post-Shaq: leaves in 05, the team doesn't have much success, allowing for Nash and Dirk to steal some MVPs. Kobe probably is the best player in the league now, but it's close. Wade, Dirk, Nash, LeBron etc are all great players now.

I think he's the best player for the 05/06 to the 07/08 season. That's a 3 window period, and even then it's close. There were and are a ton of great players.

~Pau-era: LeBron takes over the best player in the 08-09 season, coincidently this is Pau's first full season in LA (I know some disagree about LeBron, but irregardless it's VERY close).

He was trumped by the great big men in the early stage of his career, he probably was the best in the middle part, but his team wasn't, allowing Dirk and Nash to get the awards, and then LeBron enters scene...

I think Duncan, Shaq, Kobe and LeBron all go down as top 10-12 players ever. So yes, there was a great amount of competition. KG is up there very high too...and there's no denial about how great AI and Nash were too.

MVP doesn't go to the best player...which I sometimes am okay with and sometimes I am not. Kobe should have 2-3 MVPs just based on how great he is...but you can argue he really did only deserve one :shrug:

Love the post!

Cano4prez
02-20-2011, 09:41 PM
the cavs had number 1 seed in nba, so no

In 07 The Mavs had the best record, Dirk won the MVP. There goes your argument. In 06 The Suns had the 2nd seed, Nash won the MVP.

kArSoN RyDaH
02-20-2011, 09:44 PM
I think Kobe since 2003 entered the Best Player talks. Then from 05-08 he was clearly best player in the game. Now its a debate and there's no clear cut best player.

blastmasta26
02-20-2011, 09:59 PM
I think Kobe since 2003 entered the Best Player talks. Then from 05-08 he was clearly best player in the game. Now its a debate and there's no clear cut best player.
LeBron is the clear cut best player now.

Cano4prez
02-20-2011, 10:00 PM
LeBron is the clear cut best player now.

This

knightstemplar
02-20-2011, 10:06 PM
LeBron is the clear cut best player now.

we will see in the playoffs, that will tell whos the best player, lebron doesnt have any excuses now

The Final Boss
02-20-2011, 10:20 PM
If that white broad didn't smash he'd have 4-5, easily.

MickeyMgl
02-20-2011, 11:14 PM
It speaks to the strong bias against him during the years when he dominated most.

MickeyMgl
02-20-2011, 11:18 PM
“Somebody told me the other day Kobe’s never won MVP …. it made me wanna throw mine away! That’s how much respect I have for the guy!”

Create
02-20-2011, 11:24 PM
Mvp Voting is bad.

MickeyMgl
02-20-2011, 11:29 PM
Kobe has 1 MVP, Shaq has 1 MVP. The MVP voting is a joke

And Steve Nash has TWO! And Allen Iverson has one too many.

Any MVP award that Allen Iverson has one of and Steve Nash has two of has lost a significant degree of its specialness.

Allstar21
02-20-2011, 11:38 PM
kobe deserves more than 1 mvp...but he isnt close to being MVP anymore (and prolly for the rest of his career)

ClipperfanKevin
02-20-2011, 11:38 PM
This is an outrage, Kobe should have won every MVP since he came into the league...Hell, we should just just give it to him now...

Chronz
02-20-2011, 11:48 PM
Kobe wanst better than shaq till Shaqs 2nd year in miami and he was never clearly the best player in the game. Duncan had a great argument after shaqs decline then it was close between 4 guys

brodawgs
02-21-2011, 12:16 AM
If you look at the aspects that Kobe brings to the table, you just can't justify that he deserves it more than some that won when he was the best player in the league, i.e Nash and Nowitzki, but you can argue that he is as deserving as them. IMO the MVP is the Most Valuable Player, not necessarily the best. Value is more than just scoring and being able to hit a game winner once a month, which is what Kobe is.

Is Kobe a top scorer of all time? Yes. Top 10.
Is Kobe a top PLAYER of all time? Yes, but not top 10, definitely top 25 though.

JordansBulls
02-21-2011, 01:04 AM
Well with Kobe it is hard to judge because he never had the best stats in the league (PER, Win Shares) nor the best record. And when he was at his best the Lakers were borderline playoff team except in 2003 but even then they were a 3x defending champion that only won 50 games.

still1ballin
02-21-2011, 01:12 AM
Finals MVP > Regular Season MVP

Hangtime
02-21-2011, 01:21 AM
Finals MVP > Regular Season MVP

That's really the MVP that truly matters. It's accompanied by a ring. Unless you are Jerry West.

Bruno
02-21-2011, 01:40 AM
Really...he was THE reason they won...just him? People also are getting caught up in PPG...which most people don't think equates to the best. Shaq was far more of an influence in all aspects of the game. His dominance was unparalleled in his prime...and his defense was a force and a game-changer.

Shaq had more PPG in those playoffs, he had a PER of 28.7 compared to Kobe's 25.0. He played more minutes, he had 15.4 rebounds a game and winshares were a wash. One series isn't going to make some one the best player for a whole season...

Again, if anything IT'S CLOSE! There is no way that a consensus stance can be found suggesting that he was the best player for more than a 2-3 window period. Consensus is the word. This is all nit-picky.

Right. The only statistical argument for Bryant contributing more than Shaq in 2001 specifically is the fact that he led those 15-1 Lakers in win-shares that post season. Conveniently enough for his legacy, you can say "Bryant led the most dominant team in post-season history in win-shares" and not be factually incorrect.

But yeah, they were essentially equals, perhaps a slight edge to Shaq consider his PER. But like you said, nit-picky details.

Bruno
02-21-2011, 01:41 AM
Finals MVP > Regular Season MVP

Amen. Except Tony Parker in 2007. That was...not chill.

MickeyMgl
02-21-2011, 02:19 AM
Well the MVP voting system is a little bit messed up, but this also says that Kobe just isn't as good as everyone makes him out to be. Obviously he is very talented, but he doesn't do much outside of being an excellent shooter and for the most part clutch.

He does a little more than that.

1999-00 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2000-01 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2001-02 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2002-03 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)

Seasons of 25 ppg, 5 rpg, 5 apg:
Oscar Robertson... 9
Michael Jordan..... 7
Kobe Bryant........ 6
Lebron James...... 6
(3 players)......... 4

1st Team All-NBA, 1st Team All-Defense, Same Season:
Michael Jordan... 9 times
Tim Duncan....... 8 times
Kobe Bryant...... 7 times
(Four players)... 4 times

Each of the other players on the above two lists was MVP by 25. Bryant wasn't voted MVP until 29, despite accumulating similar achievements. He'll only win one, but it'll have very little to do with his level of play.



If you compare him with a guy like Lebron, poised to likely win his third MVP, the only thing Kobe is better at is pure shooting.

I assume you mean better statistically. Bryant is also a better ball-handler, but I'll grant you that that doesn't factor greatly into MVP voting. And I assume you mean NOW, at present. At his healthy best, in prime, etc, he's a better scorer, not just shooter.... and a better defender.

MickeyMgl
02-21-2011, 02:42 AM
~Shaq era: Kobe wasn't even the best player on his team. That was also when Duncan and KG are undoubtedly better players.

Some seasons he was the best player on those Shaq teams, as reflected in the MVP voting. He was also hurt in the voting by writers who openly said in those days they'd refuse to vote for him as long as Shaq was on the team. Basically, they admitted going in with a closed mind. Whether KG and Duncan were better each of those years is debatable.

Bryant also had a couple of seasons at the end of this era hijacked by that cute little wacko in Colorado. His stats took a hit for two years, then bounced back when it was over. He has to share in some of that just by putting himself at risk.



MVP doesn't go to the best player...which I sometimes am okay with and sometimes I am not. Kobe should have 2-3 MVPs just based on how great he is...but you can argue he really did only deserve one :shrug:

As each year passes and people gain perspective, Amare's Knicks playing better than the Suns, people are going to look back on Steve Nash's two MVPs with growing confusion.

icej
02-21-2011, 03:13 AM
There are very few people who will agree with you on this. I've never really seen many people argue that Kobe was a better player when Shaq was in LA. Shaq wasn't significantly better, but he was a force unlike anything the league ever saw in his prime. They changed rules for him. He was a monster on both ends, and his impact was far more noticeable on both ends of the court. Watching Shaq in his prime was unlike anything I had ever seen, or probably will ever see again.

And you are overgeneralizing things here with your logic.


That's not true. That matters for per game stats, but for advanced stats, it's not that black and white.

And if we're bring win/loss into this, that also kills Kobe's arguement. LA was a 5 seed with Shaq and Kobe. No way Kobe deserves the MVP on a 5th seeded team playing along side Shaq (regardless of who was better between the 2). LeBron is the best player in the league. Would you give him the MVP if Miami was a 5 seed? No. Kobe shouldn't have won it on a 5 seeded team either...

Duncan deserved it that year. Best record in the NBA, led the league in WS, 3rd in PER (ahead of Kobe, behind T-Mac and Shaq).

You are in the minority if you feel he deserved the MVP that year. He just flat out didn't deserve it.



There have been plenty of players who carry bad teams to the playoffs and don't win the MVP.

Find me a single MVP winner the last 20 or so years that won an MVP carrying a bad team to a 5-7 seed? Kobe wasn't getting screwed because of the rape thing, he wasn't winning because that's how the award goes. Poor record: no MVP. Plain and simple. Whether that should be how it works or not isn't something I'll get into, but Kobe wasn't getting abnormal or unfair treatment.

Must say, glad there's some people like you in PSD sir.

KObe in all his greatness deserves at least 2 MVP's I agree, but he has not been cheated out of any of them chances. He just got bested on the other times, and failed to get his team the best record on his best years. It's that simple, and there's no conspiracy in it.

Others are even arguing that that 1 MVP of his should have been given to CP3 that year, I'm not saying he does not deserve it but that just shows you how close the competition is.

icej
02-21-2011, 03:37 AM
He does a little more than that.

1999-00 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2000-01 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2001-02 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
2002-03 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2003-04 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2005-06 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2006-07 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2007-08 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2008-09 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
2009-10 NBA All-Defensive (1st)

Seasons of 25 ppg, 5 rpg, 5 apg:
Oscar Robertson... 9
Michael Jordan..... 7
Kobe Bryant........ 6
Lebron James...... 6
(3 players)......... 4

1st Team All-NBA, 1st Team All-Defense, Same Season:
Michael Jordan... 9 times
Tim Duncan....... 8 times
Kobe Bryant...... 7 times
(Four players)... 4 times

Each of the other players on the above two lists was MVP by 25. Bryant wasn't voted MVP until 29, despite accumulating similar achievements. He'll only win one, but it'll have very little to do with his level of play.



I assume you mean better statistically. Bryant is also a better ball-handler, but I'll grant you that that doesn't factor greatly into MVP voting. And I assume you mean NOW, at present. At his healthy best, in prime, etc, he's a better scorer, not just shooter.... and a better defender.

Nice effort, but as for the point of this discussion those are irrelevant.

Its just simple mathematics, as to why he did not get more than 1 MVP :

1. Shaq and Others (LBJ etc) are better than him on other chances (with better win record)

2. During his best(player) years he just failed to take his team (LA) to best record wins. (MVP's are only taken from team with best records).

There is NO conspiracy. But kobe will end up TOP 10 player of all time so he'll take that against 4 mvp's any day.

(read mam4prez's posts for more explanation)

Bruno
02-21-2011, 04:11 AM
Nice effort, but as for the point of this discussion those are irrelevant.

Its just simple mathematics, as to why he did not get more than 1 MVP :

1. Shaq and Others (LBJ etc) are better than him on other chances (with better win record)

2. During his best(player) years he just failed to take his team (LA) to best record wins. (MVP's are only taken from team with best records).

There is NO conspiracy. But kobe will end up TOP 10 player of all time so he'll take that against 4 mvp's any day.

(read mam4prez's posts for more explanation)

He already is.

shizzle09
02-21-2011, 04:23 AM
Regardless of who won the award real basketball fans know that Kobe has been the league's MVP for most of the last decade. He has been this league best all around player period.

MickeyMgl
02-21-2011, 07:58 AM
Kobe wanst better than shaq till Shaqs 2nd year in miami and he was never clearly the best player in the game.

Bryant was clearly better by '03, and for stretches before that. And most rational people would say he was clearly the best in the game from about '06-'08, give or take a year. Duncan hasn't had a strong argument for best player since at least '04.

MickeyMgl
02-21-2011, 08:14 AM
(MVP's are only taken from team with best records).


Since this is plainly false, it cuts a significant hole in the rest of your argument.

magichatnumber9
02-21-2011, 08:30 AM
Lebron James

AIRMAR72
02-21-2011, 08:56 AM
Regardless of who won the award real basketball fans know that Kobe has been the league's MVP for most of the last decade. He has been this league best all around player period. DUDE STOP!! were did you get that idea from kobe is the best in the last decade what about TMAC, iverson ,nash ,duncan, bron, wade,garnett etc jordan his ONLY player that LEAGUE had seen to dominate da game and he did on both ends all the new guys in today nba are just gettin done but no one has truly dominate da league in recent time ima big wade fan but bron if he was selfish can dominate the league on both ends

3RDASYSTEM
02-21-2011, 10:47 AM
And just to think i had to debate about him being player of the decade and the Kobe fanatic couldnt even tell me wat yr(s) out of this decade he was the best player,heres a breakdown why i love to discuss bball

I told the Kobe fan Shaq/KG/Duncan/AI/Kidd dominated first half of decade and Wade/Lebron/Melo took over afterwards but this is after the Kobe fan said he cant recall wat season/yr Kobe was the best individually(and to think they compare this guy to MJ)...i said when Kobe won that 35ppg scoring title and that 08 MVP he was the best player...so for 2yrs out of the 10 he was the best so how does he become player of the decade? by being the most 'decorated' as his team/org. went to 7 out of 10 Finals this past decade and he snagged 2 of those 7 Finals MVP,thats all for the greatest of his time?WOW...when people say an amazing 'talent' i immediately think of AI/SHAQ/LEBRON/GRIFFIN/ROSE/AMARE/MJ and so on, and to me AI is the most talented out of'em all, especially when adding the skill to match the dynamic athletic/talent set and add on the fact he played at MLB/NFL level in those other sports,now thats talent...Kobe reminds me of Jeter for the Yanks, they both came in young and to great org. and won early Chips and did they part but didnt really WOW me but showed flashes and they have both had they clutch moments but they are surrounded by great talent for most part and when they were not we seen how they fell back to pack once the hype died down and the 1st round PO exits came...to me they are way more hard worker type than 'mind blowing ability' , just my thoughts...And they have a good work ethic that gets blown out of context thru media channel and thats just because they dont have the breath taking athletic ability that those i mentioned above have so they work 'extra hard' according to those sources and those other freak athlete great players 'rely' on their athletic ability...wat a way to derail those who work just as hard but are far more talented like a AI/LEBRON type talent,trust me the media will side with the one they feel they are closer to ability wise and dumb down the incredible athletic type,especially if he has any flashes of confidence/self esteem(media term: cocky,hip hop attitude)

TheDiggler
02-21-2011, 11:00 AM
MVP is became Stern's fav dick award ...

shizzle09
02-21-2011, 01:06 PM
DUDE STOP!! were did you get that idea from kobe is the best in the last decade what about TMAC, iverson ,nash ,duncan, bron, wade,garnett etc jordan his ONLY player that LEAGUE had seen to dominate da game and he did on both ends all the new guys in today nba are just gettin done but no one has truly dominate da league in recent time ima big wade fan but bron if he was selfish can dominate the league on both ends


Kobe has 5 titles. Numbers dont always tell you everything about a player. Kobe is as clutch as they come and his basketball IQ is ridiculous. Im not even a laker fan. Just giving credit where credit is due. Those guys you listed are great players but do you really think iverson was ever a better player than Kobe? TMAC? NASH!?!?! Duncan is the only one i'd say was actually close to what Kobe was as a player. not just talking numbers and skill wise. as an around player Duncan was right there. his basketball IQ is pretty ridiculous.

BUCSFORLIFE123
02-21-2011, 02:43 PM
the mvp is usually for players who exceed above expectations, not saying kobe doesnt but his expctations are usually excetionally high every year so its difficult. no one wants to see the same players win it every year cus it gets boring, but the truth is, the mvp voting is dumb

Chronz
02-21-2011, 03:37 PM
Bryant was clearly better by '03, and for stretches before that. And most rational people would say he was clearly the best in the game from about '06-'08, give or take a year. Duncan hasn't had a strong argument for best player since at least '04.
What makes you think so?

MickeyMgl
02-21-2011, 06:19 PM
I told the Kobe fan Shaq/KG/Duncan/AI/Kidd dominated first half of decade and Wade/Lebron/Melo took over afterwards

Long paragraph, Man.

Basically sounds like you feel Iverson/Kidd dominated (with others), and then Wade/Melo (with James), but somehow Bryant didn't?

MickeyMgl
02-21-2011, 06:21 PM
the mvp is usually for players who exceed above expectations, not saying kobe doesnt but his expctations are usually excetionally high every year so its difficult. no one wants to see the same players win it every year cus it gets boring, but the truth is, the mvp voting is dumb

Good argument for why he should have won in '06.

MickeyMgl
02-21-2011, 06:25 PM
What makes you think so?

My keen basketball aptitude.

Chronz
02-21-2011, 10:46 PM
My keen basketball aptitude.

OK well for those of us who have to make do without that, alittle explanation would be nice.

Jewelz0376
02-21-2011, 11:03 PM
Bryant was clearly better by '03, and for stretches before that. And most rational people would say he was clearly the best in the game from about '06-'08, give or take a year. Duncan hasn't had a strong argument for best player since at least '04.


I agree with that...I remember back in LA during the time many consider Kobe the better player during their 3rd title...After the 2nd title he was the best player on that team..

Chronz
02-21-2011, 11:06 PM
I agree with that...I remember back in LA during the time many consider Kobe the better player during their 3rd title...After the 2nd title he was the best player on that team..

I live in LA so I know what your talking about. Majority of our population would say Kobe even if it wasnt true.

MickeyMgl
02-22-2011, 02:56 AM
OK well for those of us who have to make do without that, alittle explanation would be nice.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2003.html#mvp

Seems to have been clear to most of the voters that Bryant was the team's best player by then.

Lakers + Giants
02-22-2011, 03:07 AM
The award's name should be changed to MVPOBT. Most Valuable Player On the Best Team.

Chronz
02-22-2011, 03:11 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2003.html#mvp

Seems to have been clear to most of the voters that Bryant was the team's best player by then.

So your keen intellect consists of an MVP ballot?

That would be a great point if that were a poll of who the voters felt was the teams best player but its the tally for the MVP. An award with an inconsistent criteria that has shown over the years to go to a player for a variety of reasons or did the voters feel that AI was better than Shaq, or Tmac better than Shaq that same year (heck the voters once placed Tmac above Kobe but Im sure you dont buy he was the better player right?) The voters were rewarding Kobe for playing all 82 games. The Lakers always played better with Shaq, he always had the greatest impact on his teams performance and that remained true even when the 2 departed.

By your criteria convince me how Kobe was better than Shaq the year he was 2nd in the MVP ballot and Kobe missed the playoffs.

bringinwood
02-22-2011, 03:34 AM
In all fairness, Nash won 2 and was definitely the best player those years...

It didn't matter that he didn't win a championship... He was the best player in basketball....

Same thing with LeBron... He is the best player in basketball and deserves the MVPs he's won...

Kobe has one MVP and deserves one MVP...

His supporting cast over his career is as good as any in the history of basketball... His stats and legacy are weighted heavily on his supporting cast...

I've said this before and i'll say it again... Kobe is the most overrated player that deserves to be overrated... He's a fantastic player that has benefitted from never having to play on a team that barely makes the playoffs...

Kobe is sort of like the trust fund kid that goes out and still becomes a world reknown scientist... He has everything, but still isn't satisfied...

As far as MVPs go, compare Kobe to Michael Jordan...

If Jordan played with the talent level that Kobe has been surrounded by his entire career, Jordan wouldn't have won 6 MVPs or whatever it was...

Could Kobe have won the titles and MVPs Jordan won with Jordan's supporting cast ???
I think any other player in basketball history not named Jordan would have fallen short...

Lakers + Giants
02-22-2011, 03:42 AM
^I'm not saying kobe>MJ, but how the hell is it that you don't mention that MJ had Pippen (the best 2nd option ever) and Dennis Rodman (the best rebounder ever and one of the best defenders). . . it's like if you're saying kobe had shaq and gasol but MJ had nothing.

bringinwood
02-22-2011, 04:10 AM
^I'm not saying kobe>MJ, but how the hell is it that you don't mention that MJ had Pippen (the best 2nd option ever) and Dennis Rodman (the best rebounder ever and one of the best defenders). . . it's like if you're saying kobe had shaq and gasol but MJ had nothing.

Jordan had Pippen through the first 3 championships... His closest thing to a low presence during the 1st 3 championships was Will Perdue...

Rodman didn't arrive till championship number 4...

Kobe, due to no fault of his own but to his benefit, has had Shaq, Ron Harper, Glen Rice, Robert Horry, and Derek Fisher during his first championship run....

The 2nd championship had Fisher, O'Neal, Harper, Grant and Horry...

More of the same for the next 3 championships...

Comparing Kobe to Jordan's supporting casts is really pointless...

My point is that Kobe has benefitted from having such a great supporting cast... He isn't the best player in basketball, but he is the most deservingly overrated player in basketball history...

Jordan is the only guy that could have won that many championships with the supporting casts he has had...

JiffyMix88
02-22-2011, 04:16 AM
If ppl don't think Nash and Dirk deserved the awards. Go jump off a bridge please

Jaji
02-22-2011, 04:16 AM
I think its because Kobe is a douche.

ClayMatthews
02-22-2011, 04:20 AM
Certain players have better odds. Kobe just hasnt learned its a team game yet. This decreases his odds of winning leading to... 1 MVP. You have to be an all around player in my opinion. Cant just score points.

Jaji
02-22-2011, 04:21 AM
^I'm not saying kobe>MJ, but how the hell is it that you don't mention that MJ had Pippen (the best 2nd option ever) and Dennis Rodman (the best rebounder ever and one of the best defenders). . . it's like if you're saying kobe had shaq and gasol but MJ had nothing.

:speechless:

Dude, Kobe was the best 2nd option ever. And D Wade is right behind him. I guess you could even throw Melo on that list now above Pippen too. Gary Payton? Shawn Kemp? Either or... And that's just off the top of my head.

bringinwood
02-22-2011, 04:33 AM
:speechless:

Dude, Kobe was the best 2nd option ever. And D Wade is right behind him. I guess you could even throw Melo on that list now above Pippen too. Gary Payton? Shawn Kemp? Either or... And that's just off the top of my head.

This pretty much all makes sense...

Kobe isn't a top 10 all time...
He isn't deserving of any MVP he doesn't have in his trophy case now...
He is the luckiest good player in basketball history...
He has been surrounded by the best supporting casts in NBA history...

He has never had the burden of not having a great 2nd, 3rd sometimes 4th options...

Does it speak to the depth of the league ??? No...

Does it speak to a more realistic basis for Kobe Bryant's true talent level as a basketball player ??? Yes...

Like i've said, the most deserving overrated player in history...

Bruno
02-22-2011, 05:14 AM
Jordan had Pippen through the first 3 championships... His closest thing to a low presence during the 1st 3 championships was Will Perdue...

Jordan is the only guy that could have won that many championships with the supporting casts he has had...

They had Horace Grant, a vastly superior player than Will Perdue. In '92 Grant posted a PER of 20.6 on a TS% of .618.

In '92 Horace Grant had 14.1 win-shares (only 3.6 less WS than Jordan). Grant posted a WS/48 of 0.237. To put that in perspective, that would be good enough for the 2nd highest WS/48 in the NBA during this 2010-2011 season. Grant posted a higher WS/48 in '92 than LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, Dwight Howard, and Pau Gasol are in the 2011 NBA season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/grantho01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1992.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011.html

Your last point is speculation. We will never know.

Bruno
02-22-2011, 05:15 AM
This pretty much all makes sense...

Kobe isn't a top 10 all time...
He isn't deserving of any MVP he doesn't have in his trophy case now...
He is the luckiest good player in basketball history...
He has been surrounded by the best supporting casts in NBA history...

He has never had the burden of not having a great 2nd, 3rd sometimes 4th options...

Does it speak to the depth of the league ??? No...

Does it speak to a more realistic basis for Kobe Bryant's true talent level as a basketball player ??? Yes...

Like i've said, the most deserving overrated player in history...

Typical. Every time I read a post like this the argument sounds less and less legitimate.

kArSoN RyDaH
02-22-2011, 05:21 AM
Kobe not top 10? laughable.


Kobe doesn't deserve more than 1 MVP? laughable.


And the worst of all: Kobe rode Shaq to 3 ships? Laughable.


Kobe was just as important to those 3 peat teams as Shaq. Kobe dominated playoffs and had some flat out excellent performances. I'm not going to look up the stats but during the PLAYOFFS he was just as dominant if not more than Shaq from 01 on. Shaq was just super dominant in the finals and got the finals MVPs.

Jewelz0376
02-22-2011, 05:47 AM
To this day I still don't understand the Shaq carried Kobe to his first 3 titles argument...He was averaging 25+ ppg while be an all league defender yet he did nothing and shaq did all the work lol :rolleyes: yea ok

AIRMAR72
02-22-2011, 06:16 AM
In all fairness, Nash won 2 and was definitely the best player those years...

It didn't matter that he didn't win a championship... He was the best player in basketball....

Same thing with LeBron... He is the best player in basketball and deserves the MVPs he's won...

Kobe has one MVP and deserves one MVP...

His supporting cast over his career is as good as any in the history of basketball... His stats and legacy are weighted heavily on his supporting cast...

I've said this before and i'll say it again... Kobe is the most overrated player that deserves to be overrated... He's a fantastic player that has benefitted from never having to play on a team that barely makes the playoffs...

Kobe is sort of like the trust fund kid that goes out and still becomes a world reknown scientist... He has everything, but still isn't satisfied...

As far as MVPs go, compare Kobe to Michael Jordan...

If Jordan played with the talent level that Kobe has been surrounded by his entire career, Jordan wouldn't have won 6 MVPs or whatever it was...

Could Kobe have won the titles and MVPs Jordan won with Jordan's supporting cast ???
I think any other player in basketball history not named Jordan would have fallen short...

wow i wish could shake your hands for typing the truth da lakers still wouldve won titles with eddie jones at SG da league was weak back than and thats a fact plus shaq was a force in da paint futhermore all there clutch shots that won those championship games came from rick fox and horry..now the year kobe got da MVP for the season i thought bron or chris paul should have won it that year

AIRMAR72
02-22-2011, 06:47 AM
^I'm not saying kobe>MJ, but how the hell is it that you don't mention that MJ had Pippen (the best 2nd option ever) and Dennis Rodman (the best rebounder ever and one of the best defenders). . . it's like if you're saying kobe had shaq and gasol but MJ had nothing.
jordan wouldve have won with luke walton and make him a better player name one guy kobe made better all dennis did was get ball from da rim and take offensive charge da bulls team with horace was da better even tho da rodman won 72 games

AIRMAR72
02-22-2011, 06:50 AM
^I'm not saying kobe>MJ, but how the hell is it that you don't mention that MJ had Pippen (the best 2nd option ever) and Dennis Rodman (the best rebounder ever and one of the best defenders). . . it's like if you're saying kobe had shaq and gasol but MJ had nothing.
jordan wouldve have won with luke walton and make him a better player name one guy kobe made better all dennis did was get ball from da rim and take offensive charge even tho da rodman team won 72 games da team with horace was the better bulls team

JiffyMix88
02-22-2011, 07:18 AM
Kobe not top 10? laughable.


Kobe doesn't deserve more than 1 MVP? laughable.


And the worst of all: Kobe rode Shaq to 3 ships? Laughable.


Kobe was just as important to those 3 peat teams as Shaq. Kobe dominated playoffs and had some flat out excellent performances. I'm not going to look up the stats but during the PLAYOFFS he was just as dominant if not more than Shaq from 01 on. Shaq was just super dominant in the finals and got the finals MVPs.

now that is laughable.

MickeyMgl
02-22-2011, 09:29 AM
So your keen intellect consists of an MVP ballot?

No. My explanation to you is in the form of an MVP voting tally. I'm trying to make it easier for you - who brought up who was/wasn't "his team's best player", or "best player in the game" in a discussion about MVP awards - to understand.



That would be a great point if that were a poll of who the voters felt was the teams best player but its the tally for the MVP. An award with an inconsistent criteria that has shown over the years to go to a player for a variety of reasons...

Excellent explanation for why Bryant didn't win more MVP awards. Your readers will still wonder why you tried to argue that he was never the best player in the league if the discussion is about something you admit is independent.

MickeyMgl
02-22-2011, 09:56 AM
In all fairness, Nash won 2 and was definitely the best player those years...

It didn't matter that he didn't win a championship... He was the best player in basketball....

"Definitely the best player in basketball." Man, even Nash's biggest supporters don't make that claim. You're a first. The best player in basketball couldn't lead his team to to even FINAL, let alone a championship. Despite having two All-Star teammates who have done very well in their respective careers without Nash.



His supporting cast over his career is as good as any in the history of basketball... His stats and legacy are weighted heavily on his supporting cast...

:speechless:
Your credibility is quickly circling the drain. Kwame, Smush, Cook, Walton.... These are the names Bryant took the floor with for several years. That is not only decidedly NOT "as good as any in the history of basketball" (I'm shaking my head that anybody would be FOOL enough to suggest it), but it is among the worst.



I've said this before and i'll say it again... Kobe is the most overrated player that deserves to be overrated... He's a fantastic player that has benefitted from never having to play on a team that barely makes the playoffs...

:sleep: Was this you during 2005-2007?



If Jordan played with the talent level that Kobe has been surrounded by his entire career, Jordan wouldn't have won 6 MVPs or whatever it was...

If Jordan played with some of the players Kobe has been surrounded by, he'd have committed murder on more than one occasion. I agree, though, that Jordan would not have won many MVPs playing next to Shaq.

I don't know who else you could be talking about that was remotely as good as Scottie Pippen.



Could Kobe have won the titles and MVPs Jordan won with Jordan's supporting cast ???
I think any other player in basketball history not named Jordan would have fallen short...

Well, Kobe has almost won a championship without even another All-Star on his team. Jordan never won one without another NBA Top-50 player on his team. So what on This green earth are you talking about??

MickeyMgl
02-22-2011, 10:12 AM
Jordan had Pippen through the first 3 championships...

Jordan had Pippen for EVERY championship. The first three, and the last three.



Kobe, due to no fault of his own but to his benefit, has had Shaq, Ron Harper, Glen Rice, Robert Horry, and Derek Fisher during his first championship run....


Any All-Stars in there besides Shaq? I mean, really. If you're listing Fisher, you ought to list Kerr, statistically the best 3-point shooter in the history of the game. FISHER??? You're listing role players that were no better or worse than the role players that played for the Bulls. In fact, the Bulls had a younger Harper.



The 2nd championship had Fisher, O'Neal, Harper, Grant and Horry...
More of the same for the next 3 championships...
Comparing Kobe to Jordan's supporting casts is really pointless...

Seriously. Especially when you're clearly working backward from your preferred conclusion and pumping up every Laker player and downplaying every Bulls player.

Young Harper > Old Harper
Rodman > Grant > Horry
Kerr > Fisher (slightly)
Pippen > any Laker not named Bryant or O'Neal

It really is pointless to compare.



Jordan is the only guy that could have won that many championships with the supporting casts he has had...

How could he ever have done it with only one player who was NBA Top-50, one who was best defenders of all time and the best rebounder of his era, and one who was the most accurate 3-point shooter in NBA history, in addition to only a couple of other All-Stars? So little to work with! :rolleyes:

Anyway, seriously, no.... that's not a group ONLY Jordan could have won with. Step away from the koolaid.

MickeyMgl
02-22-2011, 10:19 AM
all there clutch shots that won those championship games came from rick fox and horry..

Dude, just stay out of the discussion if you were too young to watch those games. Horry knocked down shots when he was open, but Kobe was always the go-to guy who had the ball and most of the time took, and made, the shots during those championship runs.

There were more clutch shots than just the ones your older brother told you about years later.

MLB2K10King
02-22-2011, 11:32 AM
Honestly Kobe should have 2-3 MVP's the year he won it Chris Paul should have gotten it, but in 2003 when he should have gotten his first averaging 30-7-6 Garnet won it, then in the year he dropped 81 effing points and averaged 35 a game, Dirk Won it. The voting is based off of Media, and Kobe has never been a darling to the Media, he has just recently begun to be portrayed in a better light.

AIRMAR72
02-22-2011, 11:35 AM
Dude, just stay out of the discussion if you were too young to watch those games. Horry knocked down shots when he was open, but Kobe was always the go-to guy who had the ball and most of the time took, and made, the shots during those championship runs.

There were more clutch shots than just the ones your older brother told you about years later.
im NOT looking for typing war of words but dude you dont even know who i am to question my age..lol, you need to type facts and stop basing your opinion from sportcenter highlights and ITS CLEAR youve been misinform and for da record i have da privilage to be at da game i saw it with my own 2eyes and your saying kobe was always da go to guy lol dude rode da bench for 2yrs da triangle offense is geared around a bigman so mr shaq oneal was the go to guy not kobe yeah kobe chip some points in but da laker would have still won with eddie jones da league was weak back

NYMetros
02-22-2011, 11:44 AM
It's pretty crazy that Kobe only has 1. Top 7 or 8 player in NBA history only has 1 MVP? It's definitely the voting system's shortcomings rather than anything Kobe's doing/not doing.

Chronz
02-22-2011, 03:21 PM
No. My explanation to you is in the form of an MVP voting tally. I'm trying to make it easier for you - who brought up who was/wasn't "his team's best player", or "best player in the game" in a discussion about MVP awards - to understand.If this is your idea of making it easy then youve only succeeded in making it easier to refute.


Excellent explanation for why Bryant didn't win more MVP awards. Your readers will still wonder why you tried to argue that he was never the best player in the league if the discussion is about something you admit is independent.

My argument wasnt dependent to this one, I threw in that factoid because I saw someone mention it.
My argument for the MVP is that Kobe got as many as he deserved, Shaq was robbed of several.

justinnum1
02-22-2011, 03:21 PM
wade should have got one in 08

Chronz
02-22-2011, 03:23 PM
Kobe not top 10? laughable.
Only if you have no respect for the games legends


Kobe doesn't deserve more than 1 MVP? laughable.
Nope


And the worst of all: Kobe rode Shaq to 3 ships? Laughable.
Only one you have dead on nobody rides anyone to titles. Everyone contributes in some way


Kobe was just as important to those 3 peat teams as Shaq.
Not even close


Kobe dominated playoffs and had some flat out excellent performances.
Meaningless statement that doesnt distinguish him in any way.


I'm not going to look up the stats but during the PLAYOFFS he was just as dominant if not more than Shaq from 01 on. Shaq was just super dominant in the finals and got the finals MVPs.

No Shaq was more dominant throughout the entire playoffs and was especially dominant come Finals

blams
02-22-2011, 03:23 PM
I have no doubt that MJ, LeBron, and Kobe will all be in the top 5 all time when it's all said and done.

Kobe should undoubtedly have more than one MVP, that's a joke.

TornadoOfSouls
02-22-2011, 06:58 PM
in 2002-03
kobe win shares 14.9
shaq win shares 13.2

Duncan win shares in '03: 16.5 (best in the league)

BOOM

Duncan Defensive win shares in '03: 6.9(2nd in the league behind Ben Wallace)

BOOM

Now tell me again why the hell you think Kobe deserved MVP that year over the guy who dominated the regular season and playoffs AND, on top of all that, was the second-best defender in the league? Not to mention being the ONLY player in the past twenty years besides Hakeem(1994) and Jordan(1991) to win a championship without another all-NBA player as a second option.

Moron.

TornadoOfSouls
02-22-2011, 07:38 PM
The MVP voting has actually been quite solid(contrary to what Kobe nuthuggers believe). The only changes I'd make would be to not have Iverson win it in '01 and Nash not win it in '05:

2000 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2002 - Duncan
2003 - Duncan
2004 - Garnett
2005 - Duncan/Shaq co-MVPs (should be Garnett but his team sucked - Shaq and Duncan have next best PER after Garnett that year and they both amassed 59 wins)
2006 - Nash
2007 - Dirk(totally deserved it - great numbers while amassing 67 wins)
2008 - Kobe
2009 - Lebron
2010 - Lebron

LAKERMANIA
02-22-2011, 08:08 PM
Kobe and Shaq only winning 1 will be one of the funniest things for future NBA fans to look at..

sp1derm00
02-22-2011, 08:36 PM
It's a flawed MVP system when Steve Nash has as many MVP's as Kobe and Shaq combined.

Think about it, Kobe and Shaq are consistently amongst the 12 players rotating in and out of the Top 10 all-time players. Nash probably can't break Top 10 guards of all time and he has as many as Kobe and Shaq combined.

LayZbone
02-22-2011, 08:38 PM
Kobe deserved it in 06, but Lebron deserved it in 08 when Kobe won it. Wade deserved it in 09 when Lebron won it. That's all just my opinion though.

MickeyMgl
02-23-2011, 07:27 PM
im NOT looking for typing war of words but dude you dont even know who i am to question my age..lol, you need to type facts and stop basing your opinion from sportcenter highlights and ITS CLEAR youve been misinform and for da record i have da privilage to be at da game i saw it with my own 2eyes and your saying kobe was always da go to guy lol dude rode da bench for 2yrs da triangle offense is geared around a bigman so mr shaq oneal was the go to guy not kobe yeah kobe chip some points in but da laker would have still won with eddie jones da league was weak back

This is just so ignorant. Do a youtube search of just about every single clutch situation the Lakers had during those three years and you will see video clips of the ball in Kobe Bryant's hands.

And 26 minutes a game for 79 games is not "riding the bench". Please, all the lol's in all the world are not going to make your posts sound like they have a clue in them.

LTS
02-23-2011, 07:38 PM
It says more about the mvp voting system, he should of won the award when he put up 35 a gm sharing the backourt with smush parker. When he finally got the award it should of gone to cp3

Agreed and when I say the NBA lacks depth its not player skill but team depth theres only 3-4 teams that matter when it comes to them actually winning its not liek NFL were underdogs or wild card teams go all the way NBA ussually the teams in the finals our the ones you expect to be there

numba1CHANGsta
02-23-2011, 07:43 PM
The regular season MVP Award is overrated. Only Duncan and Shaq have won the MVP and NBA championship in the same year the past 12 seasons. It was much more accurate before the 00' decade, they most likely wont get it right this year as well, I keep hearing names like D-Rose, Amare, D-Howard and even Durant as MVP but those teams wont even make it to the Finals this year. I truly hope LBJ doesnt win it again, he probably deserved it the previous two seasons but deff not this year since he's playing along side another MVP candidate in Wade. The great teams of today are so much spread out that no one on the team would be considered the MVP such as Kobe/Pau, KG/Allen/Pierce, and Duncan/Manu/Parker, because IMO those three teams are the best in the league and will be the final 3 out of the 4 left in the playoffs.

Bruno
02-23-2011, 08:45 PM
Only if you have no respect for the games legends


Chronz, which ten players have a better combination of team success/personal accolades/individual statistics, IYO?

GREATNESS ONE
02-23-2011, 08:54 PM
Kobe just keep collecting the real MVP's that matter. Finals MVP.

JordansBulls
02-23-2011, 08:56 PM
Kobe deserved it in 06, but Lebron deserved it in 08 when Kobe won it. Wade deserved it in 09 when Lebron won it. That's all just my opinion though.

No way Lebron deserved it in 2008. If anyone other than Kobe deserved it in 2008 it was CP3.

LayZbone
02-23-2011, 08:59 PM
No way Lebron deserved it in 2008. If anyone other than Kobe deserved it in 2008 it was CP3.

aww man, yeah that was year CP3 went off. I remember thinking he deserved it too. My point was basically that Kobe (in 06), Lebron (in 08) and Wade (in 09) all experienced similar situations. Having the best numbers in the league, but on teams that had middle of the pack records.

Hawkeye15
02-23-2011, 09:04 PM
Kobe has 1 MVP, Shaq has 1 MVP. The MVP voting is a joke

this I agree with, as far as being a joke. Shaq should have 3 in his career. Kobe I am fine with just 1. He really was the best player only one year in my eyes. The thing that makes Kobe so awesome, career wise, is his peak is longer than almost any other star in modern history, and his longevity at a high level of play is utterly ridiculous. Kobe has really only been the best player in the NBA one season in his career. But he has been top 3 probably 10 seasons. That is even tougher to do imo.

Hawkeye15
02-23-2011, 09:05 PM
No way Lebron deserved it in 2008. If anyone other than Kobe deserved it in 2008 it was CP3.

a case can definately be made for LeBron. But you are right, if anyone was arguably more deserving, it was Paul. He was incredible that year

TheGsw
02-24-2011, 01:09 AM
Kobe = GOAT

OnslaughtXX6
02-24-2011, 01:18 AM
lol at the league having depth.