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Raps18-19 Champ
02-19-2011, 01:44 PM
The drama surrounding Carmelo Anthony has dominated all discussions over All-Star Weekend, but the attention briefly shifted on Friday night when owners and players met to discuss the future of the NBA. The bargaining meeting was a step in the right direction and several drastic changes were proposed.

The players were well represented and many of the league's biggest stars were in attendance. One player described the scene as a "who's who" of NBA superstars, with players such as Anthony, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, Deron Williams, Kevin Garnett, Al Horford and Russell Westbrook in the room. Union officer Keyon Dooling said that every demographic was represented with "bottom feeders, mid-level players and max guys" all making their presence felt.

The meeting began with an opening address from Players Association president Derek Fisher. The speech given by Fisher was relatable and summed up how everyone in the room was feeling. While players wouldn't go into specifics, they described the address as powerful and raved about Fisher's leadership following the meeting. Fisher's comments set the tone for the rest of the meeting and made a lot of sense to everyone in the room.

During the meeting, owners made it clear that their focus was to increase profits rather than cut losses. They also expressed that changes need to be made in order to increase parity and level the playing field across the league. Issues such as contraction or implementing a franchise tag were not the focus of the meeting. Both sides were more engaged than in previous meetings and sources said that Mark Cuban led the way as the owner most active in talks.


While there wasn't much negotiating during the meeting and very little progress was made, one intriguing concept was proposed by the players. Rather than changing the salary structure to level the playing field for small market teams, an alternative was proposed that would involve making drastic changes to the draft process.

The union made the argument that the quickest way to turn around "crummy" teams is through the draft. Because first-round picks have become so valuable in today's NBA and many teams have had success building a roster with this model, the union feels that the best way to increase parity is to focus the draft around the underachieving teams.

The fourteen non-playoff teams that make up the lottery would not only receive the first fourteen picks, but the next fourteen as well. The team that wins the lottery would receive the first overall pick as well as the fifteenth overall pick. The second team on the clock would also own the sixteenth pick, the third picking team would also own the seventeenth pick and so on.

Each team would receive two first-round selections so that the top twenty-eight players go to the teams that are struggling and the playoff teams that need the least help receive second-round talent. Those playoff teams would follow the same structure in the second round with two late picks each. The union is willing to lower the number to the eight worst teams, but they feel this is a much better way for the league to level the playing field.

Overall, the meeting went well and while players wouldn't go so far as to say they're optimistic about the labor talks, this meeting set the tone for negotiations and both sides agreed to meet again in the near future.




http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=18825


I think it's a pretty cool idea so bad teams don't have to suffer as much with 2 young players who can develop.

ttam68
02-19-2011, 01:46 PM
Interesting and new idea.

The Jokemaker
02-19-2011, 01:48 PM
Now that is quite the interesting idea, espeically that the players proposed this idea. The worst teams in the league getting two draft picks would definitely help speed up the "recovery" of bad teams to become good again instead of spending years to decades in mediocrity.

Doogolas
02-19-2011, 01:48 PM
That would be God ****ing awful.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-19-2011, 01:49 PM
I think it would be pretty cool if you want to completely start over.

Like if we had this a couple of year ago with Allen and Garnett, the Wolves and Thunder would have had 2 first round picks going to them.

I can already imagine the Thunder with 1 more piece in that 2007 draft that could have been a difference maker.

blastmasta26
02-19-2011, 01:49 PM
Damn, the NBA really wants to make it impossible for dominant teams/dynasties.

And how would trading first round picks work?

NYtilIdie
02-19-2011, 01:53 PM
Hmmm, interesting.....

RZZZA
02-19-2011, 01:54 PM
Communism

Raps18-19 Champ
02-19-2011, 01:57 PM
Damn, the NBA really wants to make it impossible for dominant teams/dynasties.

And how would trading first round picks work?

Basically you get 2 first round picks. So you can trade 1 or if you want or both.

Like if this was around 2007, it would have been cool if the Celtics had traded 2 first round picks for Allen then the Thunder already have had 2 first round picks of their own. So they would have had the 2nd, 5th, 16th and 19th. Durant, Green, and guys like Wilson Chandler, Rudy Fernandez, Nick Young, Tiago Splitter and a couple more were available for both the 16th and 19th picks.

JLynn943
02-19-2011, 02:01 PM
I wish they would just do away with the lottery, but the idea of having the first 28 go to the worst 14 is interesting. Why not just do a double lottery though? One for picks 1-14 and another for 15-28. That way if some team gets really lucky getting the 1st pick they aren't rewarded twice just for being lucky.

Sadds The Gr8
02-19-2011, 02:06 PM
pretty interesting. only problem would be trading picks for players between good teams and bad teams

(example: if i'm a non-playoff team with an all-star player who wants to leave, i don't want a 2nd round pick from a from a good team for him.)

J-Relo
02-19-2011, 02:06 PM
and teams that barely got into the playoffs?

Daze9900
02-19-2011, 02:07 PM
Damn, the NBA really wants to make it impossible for dominant teams/dynasties.

And how would trading first round picks work?

+1 They're trying to be like the NFL where everyone has a chance. I don't think I like this idea. The NBA was built on dynasties and rivalries. I don't ever want to see a Raptors Timberwolves NBA final ever. (no offense to small market teams in the nba). I think this model works for the NFL because of the shorter season so up till week 7 or 8 most fans in all cities still believe they have a chance if they can just get in. That golden state upset over the mavs was fun a years back but i would not want to see 82 games of my favorite team just to get upset in round 1 on a yearly basis. How bout adding more teams to the playoffs and an extra round; anda put the first round back to best of 5? Still keep this idea of the teams that didn't make it getting two picks this way they have a chance of getting right back in it the next year? Everyone wins the players don't have to have melo drama of being scared to be stuck on a bad team; the owners get more money with the extra playoff and the nba get more tv time and money. Win win for everybody.

blastmasta26
02-19-2011, 02:11 PM
Basically you get 2 first round picks. So you can trade 1 or if you want or both.

Like if this was around 2007, it would have been cool if the Celtics had traded 2 first round picks for Allen then the Thunder already have had 2 first round picks of their own. So they would have had the 2nd, 5th, 16th and 19th. Durant, Green, and guys like Wilson Chandler, Rudy Fernandez, Nick Young, Tiago Splitter and a couple more were available for both the 16th and 19th picks.
Yeah, but what if a team is going between the 7th and 8th seed? As 8th seed, they have one pick, at 7th and above they have none. That could change how some trades function.

hugepatsfan
02-19-2011, 02:12 PM
That's a horrible idea.

THE GIPPER
02-19-2011, 02:13 PM
Teams who are on the fringe of making the playoffs could just "intentionally" lose to get 2 first round picks. So no.

bball is all
02-19-2011, 02:14 PM
REbuilding faster is a good idea, but small market teams are still a farm club, but now twice as fast.

Would have to combine the 2xdraft with something like a hard cap to slow the movement to big markets.

HoopsDrive
02-19-2011, 02:16 PM
What about teams in the East that make the playoffs just because the conference is pathetically shallow? Those teams are bad, they need the early picks but they end up in the playoffs because they were the best of the worst in a weak conference. According to this format they will get very late picks and end up not improving at all (not that the current format is of much help to this problem anyway).

bball is all
02-19-2011, 02:17 PM
I always love how BIG MARKET fans want to keep their natural advantage in place. There are3 times as many small/medium markets as big ones, so your gonna lose.

Deal with it.

KingsPhillies
02-19-2011, 02:17 PM
So the large market teams will continue to collect superstars, and give them ridiculous salaries, while the small market teams are forced to develop all the up-and-coming superstars...only to have them leave for a large market team in free agency?

This is not nearly as good of an idea as it sounds. The NBA needs a hard cap...period. Top tier NBA players have too much control over where they play; putting bad and/or small market teams at a disadvantage when trying to improve. Modifying the already insanely flawed draft won't change that. Unless, of course, there is also a hard cap being implemented.

Flash3
02-19-2011, 02:18 PM
Damn, the NBA really wants to make it impossible for dominant teams/dynasties.

And how would trading first round picks work?

couple years ago you would probably like this idea amirite ? :D

blastmasta26
02-19-2011, 02:20 PM
couple years ago you would probably like this idea amirite ? :D
Not really, would've given Isiah more picks to trade away. :)

THE MTL
02-19-2011, 02:21 PM
Thats the MOST ******** idea I've ever heard!

kjoke
02-19-2011, 02:22 PM
Great idea what would make it better is lower the rookie salary so not only do the lower teams get two prospects but also more money to sign other players.

plus make it 16 so the crappy teams that barely made the playoffs get something as well

Dol-Fan
02-19-2011, 02:22 PM
Stupid. A better idea would be to just scrap the lottery and have the worst team get the first pick, second worst get the second pick, etc. That way the worst teams have the greatest opportunity to land an impact player rather than give the 9th worst team a chance at landing the best player.

kjoke
02-19-2011, 02:26 PM
Stupid. A better idea would be to just scrap the lottery and have the worst team get the first pick, second worst get the second pick, etc. That way the worst teams have the greatest opportunity to land an impact player rather than give the 9th worst team a chance at landing the best player.

but the thing about this, it will AUTOMATICALLY let teams tank the season. With the proposed idea the balls still pick the order and every team still has the chance to get better and not be that focused on tanking

Flash3
02-19-2011, 02:27 PM
Not really, would've given Isiah more picks to trade away. :)

:laugh2: True.

kjoke
02-19-2011, 02:27 PM
I wish they would just do away with the lottery, but the idea of having the first 28 go to the worst 14 is interesting. Why not just do a double lottery though? One for picks 1-14 and another for 15-28. That way if some team gets really lucky getting the 1st pick they aren't rewarded twice just for being lucky.

this is good too./

godolphins
02-19-2011, 02:27 PM
Huh....... Interesting, I think they should also make college players stay in college for at least two years before turning pro that would make the draft deeper

Sadds The Gr8
02-19-2011, 02:28 PM
Stupid. A better idea would be to just scrap the lottery and have the worst team get the first pick, second worst get the second pick, etc. That way the worst teams have the greatest opportunity to land an impact player rather than give the 9th worst team a chance at landing the best player.

nah i hate the NFL idea...teams will TANK like ****in crazy...plus, with that rule the Raps would end up with 3rd or 4th instead of having a chance at 1st overall

AddiX
02-19-2011, 02:28 PM
What the players union fails to mention is that the NBA secretly loves dominating teams. These are the teams that get the ratings.

Gram
02-19-2011, 02:33 PM
Communism

This.

Gram
02-19-2011, 02:37 PM
Yeah nahh this is silly.

Raidaz4Life
02-19-2011, 02:41 PM
Sorry but then borderline playoff teams with no shot at winning a title would just tank to make sure they got some first round picks.

hugepatsfan
02-19-2011, 02:55 PM
Honestly, this is such a terrible idea. I really can't believe that so many people here are liking this. When I read the OP, I was expecting there to be pages of people calling this ********. Because that's what we all should be doing...

jetsfan28
02-19-2011, 02:59 PM
Bad teams have passed on, in the last two years, Ty Lawson, Eric Maynor, Darren Collison, Jrue Holliday, DeJuan Blair, Eric, Bledsoe, Landry Fields, and plenty of other players who have proven to be much, much better than where they were drafted. If you want the draft to be more friendly to bad teams, give them front office people who don't suck at drafting.

hgtiger32
02-19-2011, 02:59 PM
Someone mentioned above about how the 6-8 seeds would suffer and would probably tank.

you could have the lottery as normal with the 14 teams and then instead of having those worst 14 teams pick again you could have the two sets of 5, 6, 7, 8 seeds pick next and then the worst 8 teams of the lottery teams finish out the 1st round.

Hopefully that made sense to the readers lol

for example

1-Cavs
2-Wolves
3-Kings
4-Raptors
5-Wizards
6-Nets
7-Pistons
8-Clippers
9-Bucks
10-Bobcats
11-Rockets
12-Warriors
13-Suns
14-Grizzlies
------those are the lottery teams-------
15-Pacers
16-76ers
17-Knicks
18-Jazz
19-Nuggets
20-Hornets
21-Blazers
22-Hawks
------those are the 5-8 seeds from both the West and East------
23-Cavs
24-Wolves
25-Kings
26-Raptors
27-Wizards
28-Nets
29-Pistons
30-Clippers
------those are the worst 8 teams, as they get the final 8 of 1st round------
For the 2nd round you go reverse order, so the Finals winner picks 31 with the runner up 32nd, and so on and so on

Gritz
02-19-2011, 03:01 PM
To me this seems pretty ridiculous, its as if most owners are sore losers. They want all the credit for success, yet they want to change things because of their failure. For example it is nobodies fault that the Detroit Pistons drafted Darko Milicic over Dwayne Wade, Carmelo Anthony etc.

The way I see it hire better scouts and personnel in the front office. If you get the word that it is a weak draft class simply package your picks together and trade for a proven player to help your team. I know this can be a little farfetched but this current "solution" is just a bandage over the problem.

So if i have the first draft pick and i mess up, its good to know that I can pick at 14 before any of the playoff teams get to. I get rewarded for making the playoffs while the 8th seed in the east is rewarded with a five game exit out the playoffs, so instead of some teams fighting for the 8th spot with 2 months remaining, with this we may see more teams fold

I dont think it would be that big of a disadvantage or unfair for everyone if it was 5 teams, but 8-14 in my opinion is way too many

hgtiger32
02-19-2011, 03:02 PM
What the players union fails to mention is that the NBA secretly loves dominating teams. These are the teams that get the ratings.

wrong. it's not the TEAMS that get the ratings it's the PLAYERS

if the Celtics didn't have the big 3 do you really think they would get a lot of games on national TV? no. use the cavs as an example. with LeBron they were always on national TV and now that he's gone they aren't on national tv a lot.

so, with this idea of the draft, more teams would get a chance to get a young star(s) and then they would get plenty of good ratings no matter what city the team plays in, all that matters is if the player is very good

RZZZA
02-19-2011, 03:08 PM
wrong. it's not the TEAMS that get the ratings it's the PLAYERS

yes. NBA is definitely a player-driven league, unlike say, football, where people root for the teams and not so much individual players.

hgtiger32
02-19-2011, 03:13 PM
yes. NBA is definitely a player-driven league, unlike say, football, where people root for the teams and not so much individual players.

exactly. I'm a big fan of Dwight Howard, Kevin Durant, Chris Paul, Brandon Roy, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, and I respect Kobe but that doesn't mean I'm a fan of the Magic, Thunder, Hornets, Blazers, Heat, and Lakers

Steelers23_06
02-19-2011, 03:19 PM
i dont think it is that bad of an idea if a bad teams have 2 picks they can trade those picks for better players to improve their team or build through the draft. because a good team could see a player they could really want and be willing to give up a star to get them. that could drastically change a worse off team. i mean its not the best idea the league has had but you guys are making it seem like its the end of the nba if this happened lol.

jetsfan28
02-19-2011, 03:30 PM
I mean, just look at this year's All-Stars. Amar'e was drafted after Dunleavy, Gooden, Tskitishvili, Wagner, Nene (which wouldn't be bad, but he was used to get the Knicks Antonio McDyess), and Wilcox. It's not a mystery why the Warriors, Grizzlies, Knicks, and Clippers have sucked since then, while the Cavs and Nuggets kept sucking enough to get LeBron and Melo.

Joe Johnson went after Kwame (the Wizards have been a fringe playoff team at best since), Griffin (the Nets didn't have the young talent to keep improving after being in title contention, suck now), Diop (the Cavs sucked enough to be in position for Wilcox then LeBron), and Rodney White.

Rajon Rondo went after Morrison, Thomas, Shelden Williams, Foye, O'Bryant, Redick Sene, Armstrong, Simmons, Brewer, Carney, Shawne Williams, Pecherov, Douby, and Balkman. And while Bargnani, Aldridge, Thabo, Gay, and Roy are good, Rondo was probably the best player in that draft. And those picks killed the Bobcats, stopped the Nuggets from putting talent around Melo, killed the Warriors, stopped the Hornets from putting a championship contender around CP3, and significantly hurt plenty of other teams.

Dirk and Manu both also had a ton of guys go over them, but I think the point has been made.

If bad teams want to do better, the key isn't to gift them more picks. It's to tell them to stop sucking at using the ones they have, and stop sucking at player development.

Flash3
02-19-2011, 03:31 PM
wrong. it's not the TEAMS that get the ratings it's the PLAYERS

if the Celtics didn't have the big 3 do you really think they would get a lot of games on national TV? no. use the cavs as an example. with LeBron they were always on national TV and now that he's gone they aren't on national tv a lot.

so, with this idea of the draft, more teams would get a chance to get a young star(s) and then they would get plenty of good ratings no matter what city the team plays in, all that matters is if the player is very good


true knicks are decent this year but they're hardly on, looks to change with possibly mello joining them

bball is all
02-19-2011, 03:38 PM
I think we lost the focus of the thread. If you look at the first post, the thought was to change the draft instead of putting a franchise tag on players. I assume this is to help the small/medium market team to keep parity with large market teams.

A stupid GM will be twice as stupid with two picks and doesn't really address the thread topic. How is the league going to deal with market size and parity? MAJOR issue for the new CBA

Overall this idea looks flawed without refinement. Does putting a franchise tag on players seemed flawed to help deal with parity?

smith&wesson
02-19-2011, 04:04 PM
so why would a team whos sitting at the 7th-8th spot continue to compete ? wouldnt it be wiser in that case to miss the play offs and get two first round picks ? im just saying.

SEATTLEredsox
02-19-2011, 04:31 PM
I like the thinking, but I think it's a little too extreme. Everyone is talking about tanking which is possible with the picks being this good.
What if they did something like this - the 8 worst teams trade their second round picks for the first round picks from the teams who make the second round of the playoffs. So, the team with the worst record in the league gets to trade picks with the team with the worst record who made the second round. Basically the worst team in the league (ignoring the lottery) would get the first overall pick and about the #23 pick.
This would allow bad teams to move up their second round picks a bit, but it's not so extreme that teams would be tanking to get the higher picks. Also, this format would mean a team would actually have to tank in the first round of the playoffs, which i can't see happening.

TheShock45
02-19-2011, 04:40 PM
I like this Idea and I hate it. It needs some tweeking, like the worst 14 teams are award a draft pick after the season that you can not trade. You can't have an 10th place trading away both there 1st rounders only to make the playoffs, then we'd have to come up with some kind of compensation and it's just a big mess, so that 2nd 1st can not be traded or it can only be traded the day of the draft if you want to move up or down.

I hate it because this kinda screws teams like the Spurs who are really smart with there late round picks (I'm not a spurs fan) Now as a Sixers fan I hate this because we are still rebuilding but we may make the playoffs as the 7th or 8th seed the sixers cant afford to make it as the 8th, get knocked out and then start the draft at 29 overall, while the 9 and 10th place teams who are only a game or two back get 2 top picks.

dhopisthename
02-19-2011, 04:42 PM
like everyone is saying it take any motivation out for even competing for the 8th seed. teams would get purposely bad if they are close to 8th seed. also it would keep teams that are say a 7th seed kind of locked into the spot for years to come. what I don't get is what the problem is with the way it is now. I mean how often does a 20+ pick ever do more the just become a solid backup if even that?

Jazz Bear
02-19-2011, 04:44 PM
Please don't let this happen. Such a bad idea.

AddiX
02-19-2011, 04:46 PM
Please don't let this happen. Such a bad idea.

It won't, the owners are trying to save money, this does nothing to help that.

Not only that, but teams won't be able to trade future picks anymore.

Punk
02-19-2011, 04:53 PM
That's actually an interesting idea but The D-League should be used for good teams atleast.

iamsteel
02-19-2011, 05:06 PM
should be:

non-playoff teams gets picks 1-14 and 15-28 with a double lottery

playoff teams gets picks 29-44 and 45-60 by their record

Anilyzer
02-19-2011, 07:14 PM
LoL

yeah, this is basically the existing players saying "Look, we want to keep free agency and we want to keep salary flexibility. But go ahead and take all the euros and high schoolers in the draft and give them all to the crappy teams if that will make you happy."

Anilyzer
02-19-2011, 07:17 PM
the problem is that one Blake Griffin is worth more than all the players drafted in the last 2-3 years combined.

I think this draft idea is ok, but with the added feature that EVERY NBA team has an EQUAL shot to draft #1 or #2.

Like hold a lottery for #1 and #2, and then give all the other picks 2-30 to the lowest 14 teams.

and let's not forget WHY there is a draft lottery. Sucky teams just suck suck suck and will constantly compete to out suck each other

Wade>You
02-19-2011, 07:19 PM
It's worth considering. It might be better if the #1 pick gets the #30 instead of #15, then #14 also gets #15.

Also, teams in the playoffs could use any trade assets to get in the draft.

BRICKCITYPIMP12
02-19-2011, 07:20 PM
i like it...wish it was put in play last year :)

Wade>You
02-19-2011, 07:24 PM
the problem is that one Blake Griffin is worth more than all the players drafted in the last 2-3 years combined.

I think this draft idea is ok, but with the added feature that EVERY NBA team has an EQUAL shot to draft #1 or #2.

Like hold a lottery for #1 and #2, and then give all the other picks 2-30 to the lowest 14 teams.

and let's not forget WHY there is a draft lottery. Sucky teams just suck suck suck and will constantly compete to out suck each otherAgreed. As for the last part, so true. But don't tell that to their fans. They'll continue to blame the system instead of their front office.

daleja424
02-19-2011, 07:27 PM
DUMB b/c

1. the 6-8 seeds would become a joke, with everyone trying to miss the playoffs to get the picks.

and

2. teams are not guaranteed first rounders, so trades couldnt really include future picks

cooldavid3169
02-19-2011, 07:43 PM
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=18825


I think it's a pretty cool idea so bad teams don't have to suffer as much with 2 young players who can develop.

I really hate the Franchise Tag but that along with non guaranteed contracts so they can get out of bad contracts. NBA players are the problem themselves they don't want to play for probably 10 teams cause they can't be living the high life in those cities.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-20-2011, 03:36 AM
I don't really wanna see guys like LBJ and Kobe start living off $5 mil a year like playersin the NHL.

How the hell are they going to survive.

Chest Rockwell
02-20-2011, 03:39 AM
No way should that idea be even entertained.

Crzycjunx76
02-20-2011, 03:43 AM
The incentive for mediocre teams to tank would be HUGE. You would have maybe 6-12 teams that felt they had a chance at the title or at least a deep run fighting for playoff position and all the other teams would be fighting to see who can lose the most. The Southpark little league state championship episode comes to mind.

JB0B0
02-20-2011, 03:44 AM
:facepalm: I bet that was LeBron's idea.

ThornMo
02-20-2011, 04:24 AM
the nba draft is one of the biggest jokes in all of sports. if you want to make it even then do it like the NFL and give the worst team the last pick and the best team the last pick. there will always be conspiracy theories about rigged drafts and this could put an end to it. no more lottery. there is no need for a bottom of the league team to get two 1st round picks. everyone knows that any elite player will not play for the small salary of a small market team and will end up in free agency signing with NY, MIA, LAK, DAL, CHI, or BOS. The NBA needs model the NFL to increase competitiveness within the league. NFL is the only league where you'll see a team from Green Bay and a team from Pittsburgh playing in a championship game, two tiny market teams with the most ridiculous popularity in almost all of sports.
I want to see the NBA change the draft so the worst team gets top pick and the best team gets last pick. I want a [B]hard[B] salary cap about $10 mil over the current cap and raise the luxury tax. With a tougher stance on salary and luxury tax this puts the best team (which is mostly a big market club), and the worst team (which is mostly small market) to be evenly matched in a five year gap.
I could keep going but i'll stop. This whole thing is ridiculous. I think the NBA will always be great, but it is by far the most corrupt league of any profession. If you think the Yankees always get it their way then your wrong. The NBA (the owners and a lot of the players) can get anything they want.
Wonder how many franchises have won a championship since 1980??? Only 7! While since then there's been over 25 teams in the league. With all respect to Boston, Chicago, and LA who have won the most Championships in this time, you guys have spent more money than almost every club in the league.
Sorry I rambled, but make the draft fair and do something smart with the salary structure and we'll see a more competitive league.
Bobcats- 2015 World Champs!.... only if what i said happens

ShakeN'Bake
02-20-2011, 09:19 AM
Horrible idea.

kingkenny01
02-20-2011, 10:00 AM
instead of all the lottery teams it should be only the bottom five because the bottom 5 to 10 generally are pretty similar from year to year

theLgndKllr35
02-20-2011, 10:01 AM
Why not just draft new teams every year while we're at it. Every August or so, there is a random draft, and the GMs construct Redraft Teams! Yay fairness.

koLohe2133
02-20-2011, 10:35 AM
And then after three years players bounce to go play with their buddies