PDA

View Full Version : Halfway Through the Season: Is Amare a Legit Franchise Player?



Tony_Starks
02-12-2011, 04:13 PM
We've had half the season to check him out. The team started out really well with a weak schedule and has since returned back to status quo. As expected Amare is scoring big points, occasionally rebounding, and shockingly enough even blocking shots.

There was even MVP talk at some point. Is he a legit franchise guy? His team is .500 and they play in the east.......





*edit-should be "halfway" my bad. If a mod can help me out I appreciate it.....

Shkelqim
02-12-2011, 04:19 PM
I think he is a franchise player. At some points this guy looks unreal. But he's consistent every night. I would call him a franchise player. Without him the Knicks would of been the same as last year. His rebounding can improve and his overall attitude. But from his talent i believe he is.

marvILLous
02-12-2011, 04:20 PM
nah

bosh did the same thing for a couple years.. u don't consider him a franchise player do you?

he can lead a decent team to the playoffs but they won't get far

better off as a #2.. get him paired with melo then thats dangerouss

Jonathan2323
02-12-2011, 04:21 PM
nah

bosh did the same thing for a couple years.. u don't consider him a franchise player do you?

he can lead a decent team to the playoffs but they won't get far

better off as a #2.. get him paired with melo then thats dangerouss

this

Cano4prez
02-12-2011, 04:22 PM
No.

bulls_world23
02-12-2011, 04:23 PM
Maybe, as long as his knees don't give out.

Tony_Starks
02-12-2011, 04:25 PM
nah

bosh did the same thing for a couple years.. u don't consider him a franchise player do you?

he can lead a decent team to the playoffs but they won't get far

better off as a #2.. get him paired with melo then thats dangerouss


Yeah that is true. He's putting up numbers but its just hard for me to call a big man that doesn't rebound a franchise guy. He should easliy be a top 3 rebounder in the game.....

Kashmir13579
02-12-2011, 04:28 PM
yes. the Knicks need to lose D'antoni.

Tony_Starks :mad:

leave it to you to make a thread like this.

its obvious you've already formulated your own opinion.

Tony_Starks
02-12-2011, 04:29 PM
yes. the Knicks need to lose D'antoni.

Tony_Starks :mad:

leave it to you to make a thread like this.

its obvious you've already formulated your own opinion.


I believe it was a pretty fair question sir. Im open to hear reasons why he is legit.....

CLASSOF72
02-12-2011, 04:29 PM
No amare is not a ligit franchise player, but a great piece to have if your looking to add Melo and CP3.

macc
02-12-2011, 04:30 PM
I would say he is a franchise player, but like ANY franchise players ie Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Dirk, they need that TRUE #2 guy that can get them over the hump. No one player is going to do it all by themself.

LanceUpperCut
02-12-2011, 04:32 PM
If Bosh wasn't for the last 4-5 years with the Rap's then no way Amare is.

meloman1592
02-12-2011, 04:36 PM
NO but he's a legit # 2 guy

sunsfan88
02-12-2011, 04:37 PM
No he's not. And once he gets the injury, the answer will be more obvious.

And ROFL at everyone who said Nash needs Amare to be successful & that Knicks with Amare will be way better than Suns with Nash. Look at their records now.

Tony_Starks
02-12-2011, 04:37 PM
I would say he is a franchise player, but like ANY franchise players ie Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Dirk, they need that TRUE #2 guy that can get them over the hump. No one player is going to do it all by themself.


See its kinda hard for me to say that about him because he had that already. He had arguably one of the best pg's to ever do it and still chose to leave so this is pretty much what he wanted to be THE guy.

blastmasta26
02-12-2011, 04:38 PM
No. Amare and Bosh are bascially at the same level. Can be the first option for an above .500 team, but ideal as a second option. Which is why Miami is insane with Bosh as 3rd option and Amare at 1st is not enough to make the Knicks contenders.

blastmasta26
02-12-2011, 04:38 PM
See its kinda hard for me to say that about him because he had that already. He had arguably one of the best pg's to ever do it and still chose to leave so this is pretty much what he wanted to be THE guy.
Had to do with money, not wanting to be the guy. Only we offered him a max with no conditions.

More-Than-Most
02-12-2011, 04:39 PM
No and he was not worth the max deal he got. I still think Max deals should be for players whom can play both sides of the ball. Amare can score with the best of them but his lack of defense always hurts his team.

Kashmir13579
02-12-2011, 04:44 PM
I believe it was a pretty fair question sir. Im open to hear reasons why he is legit.....

sir, if you were to claim you didn't make this thread so the intelligent PSD community could slap us Knick fans in the dick, you would be lying, sir. that is all.

GeekInThePink
02-12-2011, 04:45 PM
No, he's basically Chris Bosh with the Raptors.

macc
02-12-2011, 04:47 PM
See its kinda hard for me to say that about him because he had that already. He had arguably one of the best pg's to ever do it and still chose to leave so this is pretty much what he wanted to be THE guy.


I hear what you're saying, but it's not like Amare and Nash didn't work. I mean the Suns won 50+ games every year pretty much. It's just that there were teams that had that TRUE #3 scorer.

The league is getting top heavy right now, it seems like you need 3 studs and great role players to be considered a contender.

I don't think anyone will argue that Durrant is a franchise guy, I also don't think people would argue that Westbrook is a true #2 scoring guy, but in reality, how far do you think the Thunder will go this year?

There is just alot of talent in the league right now, as there has been the last 3-4 years. I never remember seeing this many top teams in the league at the same time, and I watched 100% of the Jordan era and some of the Bird/Magic era.

It wasn't that long ago when the New Jersey Nets w/ the 2nd/3rd best player on there team being Kerry Kittles was making it to the finals. This year that same team would prob be a 4th/5th seed in the East or West.

justinnum1
02-12-2011, 04:47 PM
Sure, he is a franchise player, I'm not sure he is a #1 option tho.

Tony_Starks
02-12-2011, 04:49 PM
sir, if you were to claim you didn't make this thread so the intelligent PSD community could slap us Knick fans in the dick, you would be lying, sir. that is all.


don't be so sensitive dude, the guy got a max deal. Same question has been posed of Joe Johnson and I didn't see you getting your feathers ruffled then. I would think you Knick fans should be overjoyed to at least be relevant again.

And for the record I actually like the Knicks. Hate D'Antoni. Like the Knicks.

knicks4life33
02-12-2011, 04:51 PM
He is a franshise player!! And if the toronto rapters played in the west conference chris bosh wouldnt be scoring as high as he did in the weak east. Amare easily dominated the big men and averaged 36 points per games aganist tim duncan in a playoff series and people say nash made amare ha i think stoudamire made nash better cause nash had nitwotski in his prime who is better then stoudamire at that point and he didnt win no mvps. Stoudamire is a franchise player espicially considering bosh hasnt got past the 1st round and gave up on his team after the allstar game last season and i guarntee if u exgange bosh with stoudamire on the suns they aint goin to the conference finals all those years!!!!!!!!

blastmasta26
02-12-2011, 04:54 PM
He is a franshise player!! And if the toronto rapters played in the west conference chris bosh wouldnt be scoring as high as he did in the weak east. Amare easily dominated the big men and averaged 36 points per games aganist tim duncan in a playoff series and people say nash made amare ha i think stoudamire made nash better cause nash had nitwotski in his prime who is better then stoudamire at that point and he didnt win no mvps. Stoudamire is a franchise player espicially considering bosh hasnt got past the 1st round and gave up on his team after the allstar game last season and i guarntee if u exgange bosh with stoudamire on the suns they aint goin to the conference finals all those years!!!!!!!!
Until now, Bosh hasn't been on a team with a supporting cast like Stoudemire with the Suns. So that comparison is flawed.

NYK|NYY
02-12-2011, 04:57 PM
I say no. He's pretty close, but obviously he needs another guy.

knicks4life33
02-12-2011, 04:58 PM
Your goin compare the heats cast to the suns lol

blastmasta26
02-12-2011, 04:59 PM
I say no. He's pretty close, but obviously he needs Melo.

fixed :)

Kobes a Killer
02-12-2011, 04:59 PM
No, he's basically Chris Bosh with the Raptors.

I agree, except he's better, slightly

Kobes a Killer
02-12-2011, 05:00 PM
I say no. He's pretty close, but obviously he needs another guy.

Everyone needs another guy, good first option, lethal 2nd option

Tony_Starks
02-12-2011, 05:01 PM
Its kind of insulting to compare him to Bosh. I'd take Amare over Bosh a million times out of a million....

magichatnumber9
02-12-2011, 05:05 PM
He is worth 20 million a year. And that shouldn't be debatable at this point.

Lake_Show2416
02-12-2011, 05:11 PM
I think he is. I consider him to be more of the 2nd option but in today's NBA contending teams you need 2 stars atleast. He's not an elite player but more like the complementary player to an elite guy or top star(Melo)

I remember the Lakers deciding on who to trade for Amare or Gasol but we got a nice deal for Pau n I think he's the better player too.. but that's the TIER level I see Amare being at

YoungOne
02-12-2011, 05:11 PM
he is a franchise player no doubt, but I don't think he is MVP worthy like some people might say

Avenged
02-12-2011, 05:15 PM
I'd say he is but like every #1, they need a legitimate #2 to make some noise.

He's a number #1 offensively no doubt, if he can pick up his D a bit this guy would be undeniably a first option.

Lake_Show2416
02-12-2011, 05:18 PM
Its kind of insulting to compare him to Bosh. I'd take Amare over Bosh a million times out of a million....

Dwayne, Lebron, and I disagree a millions times.. Bosh has a better game but stats r effected for obvious reasons

97NYer
02-12-2011, 05:20 PM
He's basically like Bosh in Toronto. If we get Melo and he and Melo learn to play together they will be our "franchise duo" but neither of them could lead a team to the CF or Finals like a LeBron, Kobe, Wade, or CP3 by themselves.

Tony_Starks
02-12-2011, 05:21 PM
I've never been impressed with Bosh. Amare is a better scorer, better finisher around the basket, more athletic. Bosh can be a better rebounder at times but overall he's pretty soft IMO.....

abe_froman
02-12-2011, 05:22 PM
i think he's better off being a sidekick to a guy and not the guy

championships
02-12-2011, 05:25 PM
Franchise player? I say no. Would be a great 2nd option and a great piece to a good team ala Pau Gasol.

Redbull
02-12-2011, 05:31 PM
No. Great player but he would be better off as the #2 option.

justinnum1
02-12-2011, 05:32 PM
Its kind of insulting to compare him to Bosh. I'd take Amare over Bosh a million times out of a million....

lol...Pretty sure most people wanted Bosh over Amare last summer.
bulls

Raph12
02-12-2011, 05:36 PM
Reminds me of Bosh, better 2nd option than 1st...

zn23
02-12-2011, 05:37 PM
lol I love how Phoenix has the same record as New York

Flash3
02-12-2011, 05:42 PM
no.

Flash3
02-12-2011, 05:45 PM
He is a franshise player!! And if the toronto rapters played in the west conference chris bosh wouldnt be scoring as high as he did in the weak east. Amare easily dominated the big men and averaged 36 points per games aganist tim duncan in a playoff series and people say nash made amare ha i think stoudamire made nash better cause nash had nitwotski in his prime who is better then stoudamire at that point and he didnt win no mvps. Stoudamire is a franchise player espicially considering bosh hasnt got past the 1st round and gave up on his team after the allstar game last season and i guarntee if u exgange bosh with stoudamire on the suns they aint goin to the conference finals all those years!!!!!!!!

your basically describing his success playing with nash and then turnaround and say he didnt need nash...

Tony_Starks
02-12-2011, 05:47 PM
lol...Pretty sure most people wanted Bosh over Amare last summer.
bulls


thats true but I bet you looking back if Miami could get Amare to play with Lebron and Wade instead of Bosh they would do it in a heartbeat! Amare just seems like he would be a better fit. Bosh is doing his thing getting his numbers but doesn't really seem like he puts a stamp on the game IMO....

Flash3
02-12-2011, 05:47 PM
some need another guy whos better than him.

Flash3
02-12-2011, 05:49 PM
suns have a better record than the knicks in a harder conf.

abe_froman
02-12-2011, 05:49 PM
thats true but I bet you looking back if Miami could get Amare to play with Lebron and Wade instead of Bosh they would do it in a heartbeat! Amare just seems like he would be a better fit. Bosh is doing his thing getting his numbers but doesn't really seem like he puts a stamp on the game IMO....

how? amare is scoring and nothing else skillset wise.they have lebron and wade,they dont lack scoring options or guys that put stamps on games.boshs better d and rebounding fits them better

Bornknick73
02-12-2011, 05:49 PM
Knicks won 28 games all last year.

We'll reach that mark before the ALL STAR break. Its pretty obvious.

Bornknick73
02-12-2011, 05:54 PM
how? amare is scoring and nothing else skillset wise.they have lebron and wade,they dont lack scoring options.boshs better d and rebounding fits them better

There is no statistical data to support this. They are both equally inept on the defensive end. The difference is Stoudemire tries to block shots. So they both let defenders blow by them Stoudemire doesnt always give up on the play though.

He'll try to block it and if not he fouls. Ive seen STAT send balls flying into the stands, cant say I see Chrissy do it much.

If you compare the season stats without scoring STAT is better almost every category and hes clearly the better shot blocker.

justinnum1
02-12-2011, 05:54 PM
thats true but I bet you looking back if Miami could get Amare to play with Lebron and Wade instead of Bosh they would do it in a heartbeat! Amare just seems like he would be a better fit. Bosh is doing his thing getting his numbers but doesn't really seem like he puts a stamp on the game IMO....

bull ****...no way miami takes amare over bosh. Not last summer, and not today. If you can't see bosh't impact on a game, then thats sad.

Flash3
02-12-2011, 05:55 PM
Knicks won 28 games all last year.

We'll reach that mark before the ALL STAR break. Its pretty obvious.

franchise guy yes but in that case so was bosh, i guess the definition is someone who can somewhat be built around... but forsure he isnt a 1# option type guy

Tony_Starks
02-12-2011, 05:56 PM
how? amare is scoring and nothing else skillset wise.they have lebron and wade,they dont lack scoring options or guys that put stamps on games.boshs better d and rebounding fits them better

They don't lack scoring now because they're allowed to run. In the playoffs that will be a different story when the game slows down. I think Amare is more capable of taking over for stretches in a halfcourt set than Bosh. He's also better off the pick and roll.

As far as their defense from what I've seen it seems to be based on switching everything and having a mobile big. I don't see why Amare couldn't do that, its not like Bosh is beasting downlow or controlling the paint.

Reversed86Curse
02-12-2011, 06:01 PM
IMO he's a decent number 2 but that is it. Will do well in NY's system but still overrated for a big man

Gibby
02-12-2011, 06:07 PM
Knicks won 28 games all last year.

We'll reach that mark before the ALL STAR break. Its pretty obvious.

its obvious he is better than David Lee. even then its not all on Amare for the knicks success. They have added Raymond Felton who is alot better than Chris Duhon. They ve also added a pretty solid player in Landry Fields through the draft. So the supporting cast is a part of the reason the team is doing better.

THE MTL
02-12-2011, 06:09 PM
nah

bosh did the same thing for a couple years.. u don't consider him a franchise player do you?

he can lead a decent team to the playoffs but they won't get far

better off as a #2.. get him paired with melo then thats dangerouss

Wow I agree for the most part. Amare is a MUCH BETTER leader than Bosh though. He has the intangibles that Bosh doesnt have. Amare needs to be paired with another star though.

Only 6 guys in the league can do it without being paired with another star.....Paul, Durant, Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Dirk

abe_froman
02-12-2011, 06:11 PM
They don't lack scoring now because they're allowed to run. In the playoffs that will be a different story when the game slows down. I think Amare is more capable of taking over for stretches in a halfcourt set than Bosh. He's also better off the pick and roll.

As far as their defense from what I've seen it seems to be based on switching everything and having a mobile big. I don't see why Amare couldn't do that, its not like Bosh is beasting downlow or controlling the paint.

again,they dont need anyone who can take over games.they have 2 of the best at doing that already on the team.and while thats amare's strength he's hardly see the ball to even get the chance to attempt it.thus making him a bigger waste of money than bosh.he does one thing and one thing very well,but paying a guy 20+ mil a year to join a team where he can never do that one thing is asinine

amare i'm sure could if he wanted to,but that deoesnt mean he actually does ..hell he never has.so yes,when picking for d i'll take the guy who who does over the one who for whatever reason,just wont.

this why it worked out well for both mia and ny.ny needed a guy like amare more than bosh and mia didnt need one like amare

Reversed86Curse
02-12-2011, 06:14 PM
Wow I agree for the most part. Amare is a MUCH BETTER leader than Bosh though. He has the intangibles that Bosh doesnt have. Amare needs to be paired with another star though.

Only 6 guys in the league can do it without being paired with another star.....Paul, Durant, Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Dirk

4 of the 6 you list haven't won anything, and the other two hardly won by themselves. The only one of the 6 that has minimal talent around him is Paul, and he's not going to lead that squad very far w/o another star. Not one player in the league can win without another star on the team, period

abe_froman
02-12-2011, 06:14 PM
Wow I agree for the most part. Amare is a MUCH BETTER leader than Bosh though. He has the intangibles that Bosh doesnt have. Amare needs to be paired with another star though.

Only 6 guys in the league can do it without being paired with another star.....Paul, Durant, Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Dirk

i disagree on those 6

kobe after shaq but before pau=nothing
lebron in cle=nothing
wade after shaq before lebron=nothing
kd has westbrook
mavs die in playoffs every year
and hornets under paul had one great year+this year but largely forgettable.

everyone needs star help

Knicks21
02-12-2011, 06:15 PM
Dwayne, Lebron, and I disagree a millions times.. Bosh has a better game but stats r effected for obvious reasons

Would you take someone who is un proven in the knicks offense, or someone who has a good relationship with the coach and knows how to run the system? Amare was the better option for Ny than bosh. Where as Bosh was the better option for Miami than Amare.

Knicks21
02-12-2011, 06:17 PM
i disagree on those 6

kobe after shaq but before pau=nothing
lebron in cle=nothing
wade after shaq before lebron=nothing
kd has westbrook
mavs die in playoffs every year
and hornets under paul had one great year+this year but largely forgettable.

everyone needs star help

This. Although Lebron was able to make some noise, he really needed help.

dturpin598
02-12-2011, 06:20 PM
i disagree on those 6

kobe after shaq but before pau=nothing
lebron in cle=nothing
wade after shaq before lebron=nothing
kd has westbrook
mavs die in playoffs every year
and hornets under paul had one great year+this year but largely forgettable.

everyone needs star help

Agreed, it takes 2 stars to have a chance.

Flash3
02-12-2011, 06:31 PM
i disagree on those 6

kobe after shaq but before pau=nothing
lebron in cle=nothing
wade after shaq before lebron=nothing
kd has westbrook
mavs die in playoffs every year
and hornets under paul had one great year+this year but largely forgettable.

everyone needs star help

not literally by themselves but as the best player on a team

More-Than-Most
02-12-2011, 06:55 PM
Didn't Detroit do it without stars? I mean Billups is Billups but he was never considered one of the best in the league and same for Hamilton. Would Detroit be the exception to the rule?

Kashmir13579
02-12-2011, 07:02 PM
don't be so sensitive dude, the guy got a max deal. Same question has been posed of Joe Johnson and I didn't see you getting your feathers ruffled then. I would think you Knick fans should be overjoyed to at least be relevant again.

And for the record I actually like the Knicks. Hate D'Antoni. Like the Knicks.

i will not be overjoyed until we win a playoff series and D'antoni is gone. we aren't relevant right now.

abe_froman
02-12-2011, 07:08 PM
Didn't Detroit do it without stars? I mean Billups is Billups but he was never considered one of the best in the league and same for Hamilton. Would Detroit be the exception to the rule?
thats the perception.but people tend to forget that 'sheed was already multi time all star,same with big ben(who also had a couple dpoy awards to) before winning the ring.its weird how people forget how good ben wallace was,it wasnt that long ago

NYtilIdie
02-12-2011, 07:19 PM
No, he's a #2 option, but he has the leadership of a #1 player, which is a great thing to have although leadership doesn't show up on the stat sheet or put W's in the win column.

Tony_Starks
02-12-2011, 07:23 PM
i will not be overjoyed until we win a playoff series and D'antoni is gone. we aren't relevant right now.


Well we agree there. Unfortunately I think the only way D'Antoni gets fired is if they completely screw up and miss the playoffs. Its almost worth it to me if it means he'll be done. He's easily the most overrated coach in the nba......

uprightciti
02-12-2011, 07:25 PM
yes

thekmp211
02-12-2011, 07:32 PM
ah the endlessly ridiculous franchise player tag. he is in the top tier of nba players, but just like EVERY OTHER PLAYER THATS EVER PLAYED BASKETBALL ... he needs another elite teammate. and a real coach would help, too.

TheDiggler
02-12-2011, 07:39 PM
I say: Yes, he is one atm.

Kashmir13579
02-12-2011, 08:30 PM
Well we agree there. Unfortunately I think the only way D'Antoni gets fired is if they completely screw up and miss the playoffs. Its almost worth it to me if it means he'll be done. He's easily the most overrated coach in the nba......



on this, we cannot be more in agreement. i catch flak for saying things like this in the Knicks forum.

Let me ask you this, do you think that with a competent coach and gameplan, Amar'e is as solid a number 1 options as almost anybody in the NBA?

Hawkeye15
02-12-2011, 08:42 PM
Yes, of course he is a franchise player. He is a top 6-8 player no matter who is judging, has proven that he can take over games, stretches of games, dominate in the playoffs, score with anyone, sells tickets, merchandise, etc. Amare absolutely is a franchise player.

Now, the reason this thread was created is obviously because the Knicks are a .500 team. Look, they spent the past two seasons getting ready for the free agent craze of this past summer. They got one of their primary targets, and still have money to add another star this summer if they wish, or wait on the Paul/Williams free agency the following year. The Knicks are an incomplete package right now. Did any of you non Knick fans think they would just be awesome by depleting a roster outside of their young talent that isn't getting paid yet, and by adding only one superstar? That isn't how you win in the NBA long term. The Knicks are going to be able to add another piece, which ANY franchise player in history needs, that will give Amare a 2nd star to play with, and their core of players outside that just needs a bit of tweaking and growing.

Mike D needs to be fired as well, and a coach who values defense, and actually mixes and matches pace/halfcourt offense, needs to be brought in.

Amare is absolutely a franchise player. Those who point out Bosh as an example are referring to a team that failed miserably to give him not only a Robin, but much starting talent or depth period. The Knicks situation only temporarily represents Toronto from the last 4 years. I would guess by the 2012-13 season (unless they cash their chips in this summer instead), NY will be battling for home court advantage in the east.

d nuggets fan
02-12-2011, 10:42 PM
Is Amare a legit franchise player? My personal favorite anser is he is an ATM, LOL. But no he isn't a franchise player until he produces. NY looks a little weak with Amare as the franchise. Can you imagine that contract for 4.5 years more? I can see why the stadium is chanting "WE WANT MELO"

Tony_Starks
02-12-2011, 11:03 PM
on this, we cannot be more in agreement. i catch flak for saying things like this in the Knicks forum.

Let me ask you this, do you think that with a competent coach and gameplan, Amar'e is as solid a number 1 options as almost anybody in the NBA?


With the right coach and scheme yes he could definitely do some damage but a team where Amare is your main guy is never going to far IMO. He can score but lacks on rebounding, D, and even passing out of the double. As good as he is I don't think he's the type of player that necessarily makes other guys better.

People say Kobe didn't do it without help for example but they always leave out the part that he made Gasol better. Gasol was a good player before but Kobe has turned him into a great one. Lebron basically made his entire team better. I don't see Amare in that kind of category, I see him more as strictly a scorer and thats it. Same way I look at Monta Ellis for example.

Now say you guys do get Melo, can you see Amare making him better or will they just take turns getting buckets?

PlezPlayDKnicks
02-13-2011, 12:21 AM
Is Amare a legit franchise player? My personal favorite anser is he is an ATM, LOL. But no he isn't a franchise player until he produces. NY looks a little weak with Amare as the franchise. Can you imagine that contract for 4.5 years more? I can see why the stadium is chanting "WE WANT MELO"

:rolleyes:

Bornknick73
02-13-2011, 01:09 AM
If Bosh wasn't for the last 4-5 years with the Rap's then no way Amare is.

But yet in the same breath you call him a superstar? Name a superstar in the league who isnt a franchise player?

Not allstar player but superstar players. I believe Amar'e has at least the career numbers to be called a superstar. Boy ripped it up every year in the playoffs like a superstar. I dont think anyone can argue that.

Now if Bosh isnt a franchise player then that means he isnt a superstar. Hence people refer to Miami as 2 superstars and a allstar. Or as one of the 50 GOAT players Scottie Pippen calls them "2 and a half men" 2 franchise players and a allstar PF. Boozer is a AllStar PF, hes not a franchise player. Bosh falls in this category. Same as Boozer in Utah. He carried them into the playoffs but he couldnt lead them. James lead his team far, Kobe leads his team far, Wade has lead his team far, Dwight has lead his team far, Duncan has lead his team far....now that we know it wasnt Nash that made Stat its safe to say...

Amar'e lead his team far into the playoffs as well. No Amar'e, no Western Conference Finals. Thats a Superstar player, thats a franchise player. People thought Amar'e was a product of Nash...but its seems Amar'e was the real Franchise in Phoenix.

Phoenix finished last year at 54-28 and Stoudemire BEASTED to get his team to the WCF. Only to fall in 6 games to the taller Lakers.

Now fast forward to this year. The Suns are 26-25 and are 3 games to matching the loss total for all last year with 31 left to play. And the trade they made didnt make them any better or worse. They are projected to win somewhere around 40-42 games. They will most likely miss the playoff in a very tough western conference and even if they did they are a 1 and out.

So not only did about 14 wins go out the door with Stoudemire he took about 2 rounds of playoffs with him. While garnering MVP consideration with his new team.

Thats a superstar player. Thats a franchise player.

marvILLous
02-13-2011, 01:16 AM
But yet in the same breath you call him a superstar? Name a superstar in the league who isnt a franchise player?

Not allstar player but superstar players. I believe Amar'e has at least the career numbers to be called a superstar. Boy ripped it up every year in the playoffs like a superstar. I dont think anyone can argue that.

Now if Bosh isnt a franchise player then that means he isnt a superstar. Hence people refer to Miami as 2 superstars and a allstar. Or as one of the 50 GOAT players Scottie Pippen calls them "2 and a half men" 2 franchise players and a allstar PF. Boozer is a AllStar PF, hes not a franchise player. Bosh falls in this category. Same as Boozer in Utah. He carried them into the playoffs but he couldnt lead them. James lead his team far, Kobe leads his team far, Wade has lead his team far, Dwight has lead his team far, Duncan has lead his team far....now that we know it wasnt Nash that made Stat its safe to say...

Amar'e lead his team far into the playoffs as well. No Amar'e, no Western Conference Finals. Thats a Superstar player, thats a franchise player. People thought Amar'e was a product of Nash...but its seems Amar'e was the real Franchise in Phoenix.

Phoenix finished last year at 54-28 and Stoudemire BEASTED to get his team to the WCF. Only to fall in 6 games to the taller Lakers.

Now fast forward to this year. The Suns are 26-25 and are 3 games to matching the loss total for all last year with 31 left to play. And the trade they made didnt make them any better or worse. They are projected to win somewhere around 40-42 games. They will most likely miss the playoff in a very tough western conference and even if they did they are a 1 and out.

So not only did about 14 wins go out the door with Stoudemire he took about 2 rounds of playoffs with him. While garnering MVP consideration with his new team.

Thats a superstar player. Thats a franchise player.

so what? take nash out of phoenix and leave amare there with the current team.. they will probably have the same record

you can't say that for amare and not say it for nash too..

nash alone in phoenix.. 26-25
amare alone in new york.. 27-26

nash+amare together = beast team..
nash and amare leading their own teams = barely above .500

believeinNYK
02-13-2011, 01:24 AM
I would say he is a franchise player, but like ANY franchise players ie Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Dirk, they need that TRUE #2 guy that can get them over the hump. No one player is going to do it all by themself.

this.

Bornknick73
02-13-2011, 01:26 AM
so what? take nash out of phoenix and leave amare there with the current team.. they will probably have the same record

you can't say that for amare and not say it for nash too..

nash alone in phoenix.. 26-25
amare alone in new york.. 27-26

nash+amare together = beast team..
nash and amare leading their own teams = barely above .500

So its safe to say they are both franchise players then.

herniateddisc
02-13-2011, 02:20 AM
LeBron is a franchise player.

He is the only one in the NBA right now.

PrettyBoyJ
02-13-2011, 02:41 AM
Yeah He's def. is. The knicks got so many problems with our line up, and our coaching sucks! Give him a good line up and he easily can take a team to a deep playoff run.. Ppl give Steve Nash a lot of praise for running the offense in PHX but Amare was really the reason they was a winning team

John Walls Era
02-13-2011, 02:47 AM
Sure. He leads a team to the playoffs as a lowseed and will probably reach the 2nd round at best.

John Walls Era
02-13-2011, 02:49 AM
Yeah He's def. is. The knicks got so many problems with our line up, and our coaching sucks! Give him a good line up and he easily can take a team to a deep playoff run.. Ppl give Steve Nash a lot of praise for running the offense in PHX but Amare was really the reason they was a winning team

O really? LINK (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2006.html) Suns went 55-27 during the start of his injury prone career (he played 3 games that year).

king4day
02-13-2011, 02:52 AM
I'd say he is. Lebron couldn't do it alone, nor could Wade. Put the right pieces with him and the team is great. He helped lead the Suns to the WCF last year and we saw what's happend to them since he left.

knicks4life33
02-13-2011, 02:54 AM
ill say it ONCE AGAIN
He is a franshise player!! And if the toronto rapters played in the west conference chris bosh wouldnt be scoring as high as he did in the weak east. Amare easily dominated the big men and averaged 36 points per games aganist tim duncan in a playoff series and people say nash made amare ha i think stoudamire made nash better cause nash had nitwotski in his prime who is better then stoudamire at that point and he didnt win no mvps. Stoudamire is a franchise player espicially considering bosh hasnt got past the 1st round and gave up on his team after the allstar game last season and i guarntee if u exgange bosh with stoudamire on the suns they aint goin to the conference finals all those years!!!!!!!!

John Walls Era
02-13-2011, 02:59 AM
ill say it ONCE AGAIN
He is a franshise player!! And if the toronto rapters played in the west conference chris bosh wouldnt be scoring as high as he did in the weak east. Amare easily dominated the big men and averaged 36 points per games aganist tim duncan in a playoff series and people say nash made amare ha i think stoudamire made nash better cause nash had nitwotski in his prime who is better then stoudamire at that point and he didnt win no mvps. Stoudamire is a franchise player espicially considering bosh hasnt got past the 1st round and gave up on his team after the allstar game last season and i guarntee if u exgange bosh with stoudamire on the suns they aint goin to the conference finals all those years!!!!!!!!
Suns went 55-27 during the start of his injury prone career (he played 3 games that year).

John Walls Era
02-13-2011, 03:00 AM
I'd say he is. Lebron couldn't do it alone, nor could Wade. Put the right pieces with him and the team is great. He helped lead the Suns to the WCF last year and we saw what's happend to them since he left.

That Miami Heat team that Wade carried wasn't all that good.

Bornknick73
02-13-2011, 03:03 AM
LeBron is a franchise player.

He is the only one in the NBA right now.

My man, how could you justify calling me a moron and then you make a statement like that?

ChI_ShIzzLe
02-13-2011, 03:23 AM
LeBron is a franchise player.

He is the only one in the NBA right now.

Post of the year.

Kashmir13579
02-13-2011, 03:29 AM
With the right coach and scheme yes he could definitely do some damage but a team where Amare is your main guy is never going to far IMO. He can score but lacks on rebounding, D, and even passing out of the double. As good as he is I don't think he's the type of player that necessarily makes other guys better.

People say Kobe didn't do it without help for example but they always leave out the part that he made Gasol better. Gasol was a good player before but Kobe has turned him into a great one. Lebron basically made his entire team better. I don't see Amare in that kind of category, I see him more as strictly a scorer and thats it. Same way I look at Monta Ellis for example.

Now say you guys do get Melo, can you see Amare making him better or will they just take turns getting buckets?

:facepalm:

valade16
02-13-2011, 03:44 AM
so what? take nash out of phoenix and leave amare there with the current team.. they will probably have the same record

you can't say that for amare and not say it for nash too..

nash alone in phoenix.. 26-25
amare alone in new york.. 27-26

nash+amare together = beast team..
nash and amare leading their own teams = barely above .500

Yeah but the team nash is leading had won 54 games the year before, amare is leading a team that won 28 games last year. He's on pace to increase their wins by about 12-14... The same number of wins the suns are projected to lose out on with amare leaving.

Yes he is a franchise player, but so are about 10 guys in the league, maybe more. But every franchise player needs a good team to win it. LeBron couldn't single handedly win a ring, and if he couldn't none of the players today could.

Really does anyonenot think lebron, wade, durant, howard, rose, paul, williams, and kobe aren't franchise players?

Of all those guys, the elite of the elite, only 2 have won a ring. So obviously it takes more than one good player to win.

Tony_Starks
02-13-2011, 11:32 AM
I agree Amare could use some help but let's not forget once upon a time he played on a allstar team with Nash and Marion in their primes, JJ and Bell, and later a young Diaw. Those teams never made the finals. It's hard for me to imagine him playing with that type of talent again so for all intents and purposes I think it's safe to say he had his shot....

Pluvious
02-13-2011, 12:57 PM
Yes, of course he is a franchise player. He is a top 6-8 player no matter who is judging, has proven that he can take over games, stretches of games, dominate in the playoffs, score with anyone, sells tickets, merchandise, etc. Amare absolutely is a franchise player.

Now, the reason this thread was created is obviously because the Knicks are a .500 team. Look, they spent the past two seasons getting ready for the free agent craze of this past summer. They got one of their primary targets, and still have money to add another star this summer if they wish, or wait on the Paul/Williams free agency the following year. The Knicks are an incomplete package right now. Did any of you non Knick fans think they would just be awesome by depleting a roster outside of their young talent that isn't getting paid yet, and by adding only one superstar? That isn't how you win in the NBA long term. The Knicks are going to be able to add another piece, which ANY franchise player in history needs, that will give Amare a 2nd star to play with, and their core of players outside that just needs a bit of tweaking and growing.

Mike D needs to be fired as well, and a coach who values defense, and actually mixes and matches pace/halfcourt offense, needs to be brought in.

Amare is absolutely a franchise player. Those who point out Bosh as an example are referring to a team that failed miserably to give him not only a Robin, but much starting talent or depth period. The Knicks situation only temporarily represents Toronto from the last 4 years. I would guess by the 2012-13 season (unless they cash their chips in this summer instead), NY will be battling for home court advantage in the east.

Interesting theory. A franchise player? Maybe...depends on your definition. But let's make one thing very clear...

Amare is one of the worst defensive players in the league. Yes, he can block shots pretty well. But that is "flashy" defense and not the gritty stuff that can't be easily seen in stats. He is horrible on pick and roll help. He does not box out for rebounds well at all. And he gets lost and can't understand any kind of complexity in a defensive scheme.

Amare came straight out of high school and is a hard working player. But only on offense. Offense is simple and quick. He seems to have trouble focusing for long...which is actually good in some ways because he does not "overthink" and remains confident in his offensive game all the time.

People should watch the Suns play defense now to see a comparison of how they play defense now and how they played defense before. The last 15 or so games the SUns are top 3 in defense in the league. Why? No Amare or Shaq playing pick and roll defense. No Amare trying to guard the post (he simply cannot). Oh, and less turnovers leading to easy baskets.

Now with Gortat as a legitimate big man guarding the paint and helping out on D it is very obvious the difference. Your big man guarding the paint and helping on the pick and roll is so important! And Amare was just the worst. There was a reason Suns fans were on him all the time to constantly get better.

Oh, and the Suns had the same coach...Alvin Gentry. And he did teach Amare to play D but we have now heard that they had to simplify the defense for Amare because he could not focus long enough for anything complex.


Now, to be fair Amare is the main on offense. His jumper is a thing of beauty. And his hands and finishing ability around the rim are amazing. He's a true warrior attacking the hoop. But he's not really a "Big Man". He does not do big man things well. It was like having a slow footed, disinterested, ditzy kid playing defense. He should be good but he just is horrible.


Now if you surround Amare with all defensive players it could work in NY. Or try for "Super Offense" that could work too. Or maybe he gets better on D if you bring in the right coach. Who knows? I just know that as a Sun fan looking back our defense always held us back. And his ability to play D was there. He's such a great athlete and strong.

Muttman73
02-13-2011, 01:11 PM
He has been fantastic so far...keep expecting a serious injury though...

eugene
02-13-2011, 01:30 PM
Agreed


nah

bosh did the same thing for a couple years.. u don't consider him a franchise player do you?

he can lead a decent team to the playoffs but they won't get far

better off as a #2.. get him paired with melo then thats dangerouss

cheetos185
02-13-2011, 01:32 PM
I agree Amare could use some help but let's not forget once upon a time he played on a allstar team with Nash and Marion in their primes, JJ and Bell, and later a young Diaw. Those teams never made the finals. It's hard for me to imagine him playing with that type of talent again so for all intents and purposes I think it's safe to say he had his shot....

how many teams beat spurs duncan many parker in there prime and amare does make players better look at felton and chandlers numbers they sky rocketed it's because he gets double triple teamed which gives our shooters so many open looks not even landry fields was this good 3pt shooter in college ..but what others said is true amare without another star like melo or solid veterans isn't going anywhere in playoffs

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-13-2011, 03:16 PM
But yet in the same breath you call him a superstar? Name a superstar in the league who isnt a franchise player?

Not allstar player but superstar players. I believe Amar'e has at least the career numbers to be called a superstar. Boy ripped it up every year in the playoffs like a superstar. I dont think anyone can argue that.

Now if Bosh isnt a franchise player then that means he isnt a superstar. Hence people refer to Miami as 2 superstars and a allstar. Or as one of the 50 GOAT players Scottie Pippen calls them "2 and a half men" 2 franchise players and a allstar PF. Boozer is a AllStar PF, hes not a franchise player. Bosh falls in this category. Same as Boozer in Utah. He carried them into the playoffs but he couldnt lead them. James lead his team far, Kobe leads his team far, Wade has lead his team far, Dwight has lead his team far, Duncan has lead his team far....now that we know it wasnt Nash that made Stat its safe to say...

Amar'e lead his team far into the playoffs as well. No Amar'e, no Western Conference Finals. Thats a Superstar player, thats a franchise player. People thought Amar'e was a product of Nash...but its seems Amar'e was the real Franchise in Phoenix.

Phoenix finished last year at 54-28 and Stoudemire BEASTED to get his team to the WCF. Only to fall in 6 games to the taller Lakers.

Now fast forward to this year. The Suns are 26-25 and are 3 games to matching the loss total for all last year with 31 left to play. And the trade they made didnt make them any better or worse. They are projected to win somewhere around 40-42 games. They will most likely miss the playoff in a very tough western conference and even if they did they are a 1 and out.

So not only did about 14 wins go out the door with Stoudemire he took about 2 rounds of playoffs with him. While garnering MVP consideration with his new team.

Thats a superstar player. Thats a franchise player.

Uh, Nash got the Suns to 60 plus wins and the western conference finals. Aware was hurt that whole season. So no, it was not all Amare last year.

Plus, Amare is having one of his worst seasons efficiency wise. I would say not having Nash is the reason for that.

cheetos185
02-13-2011, 03:35 PM
Uh, Nash got the Suns to 60 plus wins and the western conference finals. Aware was hurt that whole season. So no, it was not all Amare last year.

Plus, Amare is having one of his worst seasons efficiency wise. I would say not having Nash is the reason for that.

thats because felton can't set him up for pick and roll if you watch knicks games you would know amare has had lots of games were he shot above 60% ..amare has already proven he's not product of nash

Fnom11
02-13-2011, 04:00 PM
He has a pretty good supporting cast and is struggling to maintain above .500. I wouldn't say so.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-13-2011, 04:01 PM
thats because felton can't set him up for pick and roll if you watch knicks games you would know amare has had lots of games were he shot above 60% ..amare has already proven he's not product of nash

You know your comment on Felton made my point right?

SiR Lakers III
02-13-2011, 04:05 PM
26*25 nah brah

knicks4life33
02-13-2011, 05:00 PM
How does amare have a pretty good supporting cast lol

Kashmir13579
02-13-2011, 08:13 PM
Interesting theory. A franchise player? Maybe...depends on your definition. But let's make one thing very clear...

Amare is one of the worst defensive players in the league. Yes, he can block shots pretty well. But that is "flashy" defense and not the gritty stuff that can't be easily seen in stats. He is horrible on pick and roll help. He does not box out for rebounds well at all. And he gets lost and can't understand any kind of complexity in a defensive scheme.

Amare came straight out of high school and is a hard working player. But only on offense. Offense is simple and quick. He seems to have trouble focusing for long...which is actually good in some ways because he does not "overthink" and remains confident in his offensive game all the time.

People should watch the Suns play defense now to see a comparison of how they play defense now and how they played defense before. The last 15 or so games the SUns are top 3 in defense in the league. Why? No Amare or Shaq playing pick and roll defense. No Amare trying to guard the post (he simply cannot). Oh, and less turnovers leading to easy baskets.

Now with Gortat as a legitimate big man guarding the paint and helping out on D it is very obvious the difference. Your big man guarding the paint and helping on the pick and roll is so important! And Amare was just the worst. There was a reason Suns fans were on him all the time to constantly get better.

Oh, and the Suns had the same coach...Alvin Gentry. And he did teach Amare to play D but we have now heard that they had to simplify the defense for Amare because he could not focus long enough for anything complex.


Now, to be fair Amare is the main on offense. His jumper is a thing of beauty. And his hands and finishing ability around the rim are amazing. He's a true warrior attacking the hoop. But he's not really a "Big Man". He does not do big man things well. It was like having a slow footed, disinterested, ditzy kid playing defense. He should be good but he just is horrible.


Now if you surround Amare with all defensive players it could work in NY. Or try for "Super Offense" that could work too. Or maybe he gets better on D if you bring in the right coach. Who knows? I just know that as a Sun fan looking back our defense always held us back. And his ability to play D was there. He's such a great athlete and strong.

good post. i agree with everything you said except the super offense lol

Spurred1
02-13-2011, 08:27 PM
But yet in the same breath you call him a superstar? Name a superstar in the league who isnt a franchise player?

Not allstar player but superstar players. I believe Amar'e has at least the career numbers to be called a superstar. Boy ripped it up every year in the playoffs like a superstar. I dont think anyone can argue that.

Now if Bosh isnt a franchise player then that means he isnt a superstar. Hence people refer to Miami as 2 superstars and a allstar. Or as one of the 50 GOAT players Scottie Pippen calls them "2 and a half men" 2 franchise players and a allstar PF. Boozer is a AllStar PF, hes not a franchise player. Bosh falls in this category. Same as Boozer in Utah. He carried them into the playoffs but he couldnt lead them. James lead his team far, Kobe leads his team far, Wade has lead his team far, Dwight has lead his team far, Duncan has lead his team far....now that we know it wasnt Nash that made Stat its safe to say...

Amar'e lead his team far into the playoffs as well. No Amar'e, no Western Conference Finals. Thats a Superstar player, thats a franchise player. People thought Amar'e was a product of Nash...but its seems Amar'e was the real Franchise in Phoenix.

Phoenix finished last year at 54-28 and Stoudemire BEASTED to get his team to the WCF. Only to fall in 6 games to the taller Lakers.

Now fast forward to this year. The Suns are 26-25 and are 3 games to matching the loss total for all last year with 31 left to play. And the trade they made didnt make them any better or worse. They are projected to win somewhere around 40-42 games. They will most likely miss the playoff in a very tough western conference and even if they did they are a 1 and out.

So not only did about 14 wins go out the door with Stoudemire he took about 2 rounds of playoffs with him. While garnering MVP consideration with his new team.

Thats a superstar player. Thats a franchise player.

I bolded that statement because it is incorrect. The Suns made the WCF in 2006, without Amare.
He's a franchise player and was very important to the Suns, but Nash was what made that team run.

Tony_Starks
02-13-2011, 08:30 PM
Pluvious hit it on the head!

Wrigheyes4MVP
02-14-2011, 12:12 AM
nah

bosh did the same thing for a couple years.. u don't consider him a franchise player do you?

he can lead a decent team to the playoffs but they won't get far

better off as a #2.. get him paired with melo then thats dangerouss

Amare is better than Bosh though.

koreancabbage
02-14-2011, 01:07 AM
Amare is better than Bosh though.

no he's not. they are about even. Amare couldn't even rebound a ball in the playoffs and he hasn't done so in his career. how could you be a legit franchise player as a big without rebounding stats?

I think he avg'd something like 4 rebounds in the post season last year? WTF is that?

All Amare has is that he's a better finisher around the basketball but you could make the argument Bosh is the better rebounder of the two. Both have led their respective teams as a .500 record. both don't play efficient defense.

stop giving praise to Amare when he hasn't done jack by himself. Just b/c he plays in NYC he's getting much more exposure but in reality, he's doing the same thing as Bosh did in Toronto.

justinnum1
02-14-2011, 01:11 AM
no he's not. they are about even. Amare couldn't even rebound a ball in the playoffs and he hasn't done so in his career. how could you be a legit franchise player as a big without rebounding stats?

I think he avg'd something like 4 rebounds in the post season last year? WTF is that?

All Amare has is that he's a better finisher around the basketball but you could make the argument Bosh is the better rebounder of the two. Both have led their respective teams as a .500 record. both don't play efficient defense.

stop giving praise to Amare when he hasn't done jack by himself. Just b/c he plays in NYC he's getting much more exposure but in reality, he's doing the same thing as Bosh did in Toronto.

Bosh is playing pretty good D this year.

Bornknick73
02-14-2011, 01:50 AM
Amare is better than Bosh though.

Jesus Christmas...dont start that **** again please.

Bornknick73
02-14-2011, 01:53 AM
no he's not. they are about even. Amare couldn't even rebound a ball in the playoffs and he hasn't done so in his career. how could you be a legit franchise player as a big without rebounding stats?

I think he avg'd something like 4 rebounds in the post season last year? WTF is that?

All Amare has is that he's a better finisher around the basketball but you could make the argument Bosh is the better rebounder of the two. Both have led their respective teams as a .500 record. both don't play efficient defense.

stop giving praise to Amare when he hasn't done jack by himself. Just b/c he plays in NYC he's getting much more exposure but in reality, he's doing the same thing as Bosh did in Toronto.

6.6 is not 4. I learned a few things in my 1500 posts, research what you are talking about before you hit submit.

Heediot
02-14-2011, 09:24 AM
overatted and hype up by his higlight reels and the media. psd fans are dumb ****s that put too much weight on the flashiness of a player versus the susbstance. cp3 is a player who really helps his team.

he is a all star player and bordeline franchise player just overrated by numbnut fans and the media.