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Savage Sunday
02-07-2011, 04:41 PM
2010-2011 Salary Cap At $58 Million

The start of the Oklahoma City dynasty is set to begin this summer.



1.Denver Nuggets- $44.4 Million In Cap Room
Note:If Denver accepts Chauncey Billups' Team Option & Nene accepts his Player Option, Denver will have $14.1 Million In Cap Room. Both are unlikely.

2.Sacramento Kings- $30.4 Million In Cap Room

3.Indiana Pacers- $23.2 Million In Cap Room

4.Houston Rockets- $21.8 Million In Cap Room

5.New Jersey Nets- $21.7 Million In Cap Room

6.Oklahoma City Thunder- $18.6 Million In Cap Room

7.Memphis Grizzlies- $17.2 Million In Cap Room

8.Minnesota Timerwolves- $16.3 Million In Cap Room

9.New York Knicks- $15.5 Million In Cap Room

10.Toronto Raptors- $15 Million In Cap Room


For this group of Free Agents:



2011 NBA Free Agent List
Andrei Kirilenko ($17.8)
Carl Landry ($3)
Carlos Arroyo(notes) ($1.2)
Carmelo Anthony ($17.1)
Caron Butler ($10.6)
Dan Gadzuric(notes) ($7.2)
David West ($8.3)—Player Option
Eddy Curry(notes) ($11.2)
Glen Davis ($3.3)
Greg Oden(notes) ($6.8)—Qualifying Offer
Jamal Crawford(notes) ($10.1)
Jason Richardson(notes) ($14.4)
Jeff Green(notes) ($4.5)— Qualifying Offer
Joel Pryzbilla ($7.2)
JR Smith ($6)
Kendrick Perkins ($4.4)
Kenyon Martin ($17.2)
Marc Gasol ($3.4)
Michael Redd(notes) ($18.3)
Mike Dunleavy ($10.6)
Nazr Mohammad ($6.9)
Predrag Stojakovic ($15.3)
Rodney Stuckey(notes) ($2.8)— Qualifying Offer
Samuel Dalembert(notes) ($12.2)
Sasha Vujacic(notes) ($5.4)
Shane Battier ($7.3)
Shannon Brown(notes) ($2.2)—Player Option
Tayshaun Prince ($11.2)
TJ Ford(notes) ($8.5)
Troy Murphy(notes) ($12.0)
Tyson Chandler(notes) ($12.8)
Vince Carter(notes) ($17.3)
Wilson Chandler(notes) ($2.1)— Qualifying Offer
Yao Ming(notes) ($17.7)
Zach Randolph ($17.3)


Thunder could potentially form a Dynasty with the right addition(s) in Free Agency.

AddiX
02-07-2011, 04:51 PM
Didn't realize Mike Dunleavy was making 10.6, when did he earn that? I'll be interested to see where Kirilenko ends up and for how much, he could be a huge difference maker for someone.

Carl Landry is my favorite player in this class. Dude is a beast.

AndyfromNeptune
02-07-2011, 04:55 PM
It is too bad that the Thunder are going to save up their money to resign Russel Westbrook.

Although if they added the three point marksman and great defender Andrei Kirilienko or perhaps Tyson Chandler, they instantly become contenders in the west.

The Thunder just need better three point shooting and better defense.




Meanwhile if the Knicks do not get Melo, I am curious to see if they resign Wilson Chandler for the supposed 10 million he wants a year or trade him for some value and pick up someone like Rodney Stuckey, Andrei Kirilienko, or Marc Gasol.

Either way it will be an interesting offseason

Hawkeye15
02-07-2011, 04:55 PM
Didn't realize Mike Dunleavy was making 10.6, when did he earn that? I'll be interested to see where Kirilenko ends up and for how much, he could be a huge difference maker for someone.

Carl Landry is my favorite player in this class. Dude is a beast.

Landry is a beast, but he is way down this year. He has shown he is a role player, and nothing more. A great role player, for sure, but he can't create for himself, and can not be a feature PF. Would be a great pickup for a team where he doesn't have to do anything but crash the boards and clean up misses with dunks.

John Walls Era
02-07-2011, 04:56 PM
Jeff Green and Marc Gasol to the Raptors hopefully.

AKAYaReal
02-07-2011, 04:57 PM
Depending on the cap and the cba, some teams would be wise not to pull a Detroit and just sign and possibly over pay players because they have money.

A team like the Thunder should only add a player or players that make sense if they do. They are on the verge of being a great team in the west and dont need to lock themselves into foolish contracts.

godolphins
02-07-2011, 04:57 PM
Do you guys think with the new CBA the Mid Level Exception will still be in effect?

AKAYaReal
02-07-2011, 05:01 PM
Is Redd even going to try and make another run in the league? I havent heard anything about his injury and his state in almost a yr now.

Clutch™
02-07-2011, 05:08 PM
I think Pistons will land Zach Randolph regardless. He says he wants to play here, so if the Pistons get a good draft pick, they should draft a PG/SG/SF.

C - Monroe / Randolph
PF - Randolph / Monroe
SF - Daye/Draft Pick?
SG - Stuck / Gordon
PG - Draft Pick / T-Mac? / Stuckey (Please No!)

Clutch™
02-07-2011, 05:10 PM
Depending on the cap and the cba, some teams would be wise not to pull a Detroit and just sign and possibly over pay players because they have money.

A team like the Thunder should only add a player or players that make sense if they do. They are on the verge of being a great team in the west and dont need to lock themselves into foolish contracts.

So sad, but yet so true :facepalm:

iggypop123
02-07-2011, 05:16 PM
we dont know the new cba. some have speculated a franchise tag, 2 MLE per team. a hard cap. who knows what will happen.

godolphins
02-07-2011, 05:19 PM
we dont know the new cba. some have speculated a franchise tag, 2 MLE per team. a hard cap. who knows what will happen.

That would be great

knicks_champ
02-07-2011, 05:28 PM
That's a good class for teams who need depth for a deep playoff run.

On the CBA case, I think they should take out the MLE rule. It makes no sense to give teams who went over the cap a chance to get a quality player.

Savage Sunday
02-07-2011, 05:30 PM
Do you guys think with the new CBA the Mid Level Exception will still be in effect?

Yes.

Dade County
02-07-2011, 05:43 PM
That's a good class for teams who need depth for a deep playoff run.

On the CBA case, I think they should take out the MLE rule. It makes no sense to give team who went over the cap a chance to get a quality player.

I agree... Even if it hurts my team.

I think they should even go further, and tell teams that their mid-level players can no longer be on their teams (and give them 2 months, to do something about it)

Savage Sunday
02-07-2011, 05:59 PM
Is Redd even going to try and make another run in the league? I havent heard anything about his injury and his state in almost a yr now.
Skiles suggested he wont have a role in the Bucks' rotation. Same situation with T-Mac, but they might be forced to buy him out.

I think he still has some years left. Hes always been a good shooter, and never a great athlete. So he can find his role off the bench doing that.


I think Pistons will land Zach Randolph regardless. He says he wants to play here, so if the Pistons get a good draft pick, they should draft a PG/SG/SF.

C - Monroe / Randolph
PF - Randolph / Monroe
SF - Daye/Draft Pick?
SG - Stuck / Gordon
PG - Draft Pick / T-Mac? / Stuckey (Please No!)

How exactly is that supposed to happen? Detroit has nothing that Memphis wants at their current salaries.

Bornknick73
02-07-2011, 06:01 PM
Its gonna be interesting to see how they are gonna work a hard cap with Bird Rules. Bird Rules were made to keep your players, which is a hot topic with the owners.

If you can go over the cap using Bird Rules then whats the sense of a hard cap? If they do away with Bird Rules it will be harder to keep your players.

But then again how do you use a Franchise tag on a basketball player? Football is a team of 53 guys. One guy pissed that you franchised him wont have the affect one disgruntled basketball player has on a team of 15.

If a player is reaching the end of his contract and he wants to go on the market and a team franchises him, its reasoonable to assume, that player might be upset. So basically the player wants to go or has desires to go and the team denies him the right to do so. They slap the chain on him and say "NO" you cant leave me.

Isnt this the "runaway slave" mentality used in the NFL? The franchise tag isnt popular in the NFL and a lot of players regard their situations as a modern day form of well paid slavery. The massa needs you so you cant leave the plantation.

I think the franchise tag is un-American and offensive. Bird Rights dont infringe on the players civil liberties. I know we smirk when we hear some millionaires compare it to slavery but if you really look at it does exists on some level. A corporate level.

With the modern day NBA Diva a Franchise tag is gonna be a very tough pill to swallow. Its unfortunate the owners cant come up with another alternative. I think we are in for a hell of a fight. I just hope we dont lose a whole season while they duke it out.

dhopisthename
02-07-2011, 06:10 PM
okc probably isn't going to have any cap unless they decide to withdraw their offer on green and don't resign him

gilly
02-07-2011, 06:28 PM
OKC should go for Perkins/Chandler and Kirilenko and then try and resign Russ and Green for less. Add a few role players to fill out the rotation and they'll be good for a deep run next year.

Clutch™
02-07-2011, 06:37 PM
Skiles suggested he wont have a role in the Bucks' rotation. Same situation with T-Mac, but they might be forced to buy him out.

I think he still has some years left. Hes always been a good shooter, and never a great athlete. So he can find his role off the bench doing that.



How exactly is that supposed to happen? Detroit has nothing that Memphis wants at their current salaries.

It's called Free Agency.

I was saying regardless, because were not in the top 10 with the most cap space.

Savage Sunday
02-07-2011, 06:41 PM
It's called Free Agency.
I was saying regardless, because were not in the top 10 with the most cap space.

They dont have the cap room to do it.

Unless ZBO signs there for the MLE.

Savage Sunday
02-07-2011, 06:43 PM
okc probably isn't going to have any cap unless they decide to withdraw their offer on green and don't resign him

The only difference is $5 Million if they let him walk.

Raps18-19 Champ
02-07-2011, 06:50 PM
Marc Gasol is Toronto Bound.

TO to the CHI
02-07-2011, 07:05 PM
Jeff Green and Marc Gasol to the Raptors hopefully.

Amen.

LanceUpperCut
02-07-2011, 07:07 PM
Amen.

Rather have Mark Gasol and Wilson Chandler.

Sadds The Gr8
02-07-2011, 07:07 PM
Marc Gasol is Toronto Bound.

this

Kakaroach
02-07-2011, 07:07 PM
The Thunder may have the most but they have to re-sign Green and extend guys like Westbrook and Ibaka. So their cap space will go down pretty much immediately. Unfortunately the Jazz will have no cap space this off-season. :sigh:

TO to the CHI
02-07-2011, 07:10 PM
Its gonna be interesting to see how they are gonna work a hard cap with Bird Rules. Bird Rules were made to keep your players, which is a hot topic with the owners.

If you can go over the cap using Bird Rules then whats the sense of a hard cap? If they do away with Bird Rules it will be harder to keep your players.

But then again how do you use a Franchise tag on a basketball player? Football is a team of 53 guys. One guy pissed that you franchised him wont have the affect one disgruntled basketball player has on a team of 15.

If a player is reaching the end of his contract and he wants to go on the market and a team franchises him, its reasoonable to assume, that player might be upset. So basically the player wants to go or has desires to go and the team denies him the right to do so. They slap the chain on him and say "NO" you cant leave me.

Isnt this the "runaway slave" mentality used in the NFL? The franchise tag isnt popular in the NFL and a lot of players regard their situations as a modern day form of well paid slavery. The massa needs you so you cant leave the plantation.

I think the franchise tag is un-American and offensive. Bird Rights dont infringe on the players civil liberties. I know we smirk when we hear some millionaires compare it to slavery but if you really look at it does exists on some level. A corporate level.

With the modern day NBA Diva a Franchise tag is gonna be a very tough pill to swallow. Its unfortunate the owners cant come up with another alternative. I think we are in for a hell of a fight. I just hope we dont lose a whole season while they duke it out.

The player would be compensated (if the system is similar to the NFL's) at the average of the top-5 players in the league at his position. Needless to say that is a lot of scratch.

First of all the players would have to agree to incorporate the franchise tag during collective bargaining. Meaning that they are not going to be forced into it.

Second, a player would still have other options (play in a different league, go overseas, stop playing basketball, hold out and demand a trade). It should go without saying that slaves had no such other options.

Your comparison is a huge reach and is frankly insulting.

I know you like to suggest huge theories often while ignoring facts and evidence (as your commentaries on free agency reflect), but this is just absurd.

RZZZA
02-07-2011, 07:12 PM
how much do the Bulls have in free cap space, like 30 cents? Enough to buy a gumball

TO to the CHI
02-07-2011, 07:15 PM
Rather have Mark Gasol and Wilson Chandler.

I would be fine with either package and believe that getting someone like Gasol (who will be a good complement to Bargs) is the key to our offseason. But I prefer Green to Chandler slightly, although I would be fine with either as a second summer signing.

BkOriginalOne
02-07-2011, 07:22 PM
Knicks are going to run hard at Perkins and Gasol.

DaBUU
02-07-2011, 07:24 PM
Eddy Curry is a Beast, he'll make OKC instant contenders

KingPosey
02-07-2011, 07:24 PM
No one on that list makes me happy as a king's fan. None help us that much, or would come here....:sigh:

Savage Sunday
02-07-2011, 07:32 PM
The Thunder may have the most but they have to re-sign Green and extend guys like Westbrook and Ibaka. So their cap space will go down pretty much immediately. Unfortunately the Jazz will have no cap space this off-season. :sigh:

Westbrook & Ibaka's extensions wont go in effect until after their contracts expire. Westbrook's contract expires following the 2011-2012 season. Ibaka's contract expires following the 2012-2013 season.

OKC needs to utilize their cap space now as they wont have any following next season.

Savage Sunday
02-07-2011, 07:34 PM
No one on that list makes me happy as a king's fan. None help us that much, or would come here....:sigh:

True.

Kings' best option now is to keep building through the Draft. Fire Westphal. Hope that Evans/Cousins becomes a great duo.

Baller1
02-07-2011, 07:40 PM
Sign Perkins or Gasol and we're set for 5-10 years.

MiamiWadeCounty
02-07-2011, 08:10 PM
tyson chandler to the heat for the full mle (depending on new cba)

NYYCowboys
02-07-2011, 08:19 PM
Eddy Curry is a Beast, he'll make OKC instant contenders

In a hot dog eating contest maybe....lol.

DoMeFavors
02-07-2011, 08:23 PM
Kirilenko, Carmelo, Caron Butler, David West, Glen Davis, Jeff Green, Jason Richardson, Jr Smith, Perkins, Gasol, Battier, Shannon Brown, Tyson Chandler, Zach Randolph, Wilson chandler

Will all get big money, the players in bold are the ones I want Nets to sign.

Gambeezy
02-07-2011, 08:23 PM
Sign Perkins or Gasol and we're set for 5-10 years.

Forget Gasol. If you guys sign Perkins, you're instant/serious contenders.

Evolution23
02-07-2011, 08:25 PM
Marc Gasol and Perkins could be some nice on the Knicks next to Amare

rufo4100
02-07-2011, 08:28 PM
2010-2011 Salary Cap At $58 Million

The start of the Oklahoma City dynasty is set to begin this summer.




For this group of Free Agents:




Thunder could potentially form a Dynasty with the right addition(s) in Free Agency.


Agreed. I'd go after Tyson Chandler if I was them. If they sign a stud center they will be one of the best teams in the NBA and Tyson is probably the best available center.

ps...what if they signed ODEN!

rufo4100
02-07-2011, 08:28 PM
...or OKC should consider Kendrick Perkins.

DoMeFavors
02-07-2011, 08:32 PM
Marc Gasol and Perkins could be some nice on the Knicks next to Amare

Give Perkins a 9 point per game player 11 million a year and that can happend.

Geargo Wallace
02-07-2011, 08:36 PM
In a hot dog eating contest maybe....lol.

did you really just "...lol" your own joke?

shameful.

Baller1
02-07-2011, 08:37 PM
Forget Gasol. If you guys sign Perkins, you're instant/serious contenders.

I agree; Perkins is number 1 on my wish list.

But I wouldn't be bummed at all if we were to acquire Gasol instead.

LanceUpperCut
02-07-2011, 08:43 PM
Would like to see what Perks can do on a different team. I think playing on Boston makes him look better than he is, but I could be wrong.

ChiSox219
02-07-2011, 08:47 PM
I don't think Gasol is going anywhere. If he does, I wouldn't be surprised if someone offered him the maximum.

netsgiantsyanks
02-07-2011, 08:54 PM
if melo gets traded to ny, the nets should go after chandler(if they dont draft a sf with their top pick) and sign crawford to a one year deal.

Hellcrooner
02-07-2011, 09:03 PM
Its gonna be interesting to see how they are gonna work a hard cap with Bird Rules. Bird Rules were made to keep your players, which is a hot topic with the owners.

If you can go over the cap using Bird Rules then whats the sense of a hard cap? If they do away with Bird Rules it will be harder to keep your players.

But then again how do you use a Franchise tag on a basketball player? Football is a team of 53 guys. One guy pissed that you franchised him wont have the affect one disgruntled basketball player has on a team of 15.

If a player is reaching the end of his contract and he wants to go on the market and a team franchises him, its reasoonable to assume, that player might be upset. So basically the player wants to go or has desires to go and the team denies him the right to do so. They slap the chain on him and say "NO" you cant leave me.

Isnt this the "runaway slave" mentality used in the NFL? The franchise tag isnt popular in the NFL and a lot of players regard their situations as a modern day form of well paid slavery. The massa needs you so you cant leave the plantation.

I think the franchise tag is un-American and offensive. Bird Rights dont infringe on the players civil liberties. I know we smirk when we hear some millionaires compare it to slavery but if you really look at it does exists on some level. A corporate level.

With the modern day NBA Diva a Franchise tag is gonna be a very tough pill to swallow. Its unfortunate the owners cant come up with another alternative. I think we are in for a hell of a fight. I just hope we dont lose a whole season while they duke it out.

all the system ( draft, Rookie salrays, Max salarys,saalry cap; having to match salarys for trades, palyers not being able to control where they get traded to, unilateral matching options after rookie contract and etc etc) is "deluxe slavery" and absolutely Unamerican.

Eagles4Lyfe
02-07-2011, 09:11 PM
Landry is a beast, but he is way down this year. He has shown he is a role player, and nothing more. A great role player, for sure, but he can't create for himself, and can not be a feature PF. Would be a great pickup for a team where he doesn't have to do anything but crash the boards and clean up misses with dunks.

you mean reggie evans

DoMeFavors
02-07-2011, 09:12 PM
if melo gets traded to ny, the nets should go after chandler(if they dont draft a sf with their top pick) and sign crawford to a one year deal.

Wouldnt be terrible.

WAYNEBO
02-07-2011, 11:34 PM
How the hell did Nazr Mohammad ($6.9) get that kind of money? He's a 40yo scrub.

Clutch™
02-07-2011, 11:36 PM
They dont have the cap room to do it.

Unless ZBO signs there for the MLE.

They will, once they trade Taysahun or Rip.

Bornknick73
02-08-2011, 12:47 AM
The player would be compensated (if the system is similar to the NFL's) at the average of the top-5 players in the league at his position. Needless to say that is a lot of scratch.

First of all the players would have to agree to incorporate the franchise tag during collective bargaining. Meaning that they are not going to be forced into it.

Second, a player would still have other options (play in a different league, go overseas, stop playing basketball, hold out and demand a trade). It should go without saying that slaves had no such other options.

Your comparison is a huge reach and is frankly insulting.

I know you like to suggest huge theories often while ignoring facts and evidence (as your commentaries on free agency reflect), but this is just absurd.

If you find it offensive then direct your remarks to Ray Lewis and a host of other NFL players, it was their analogy not mine. I didnt pull this slave mentality stuff out of my ***. Its been said by several NFL players. And if I may make a suggestion, if you find it so offensive then maybe you should bring yourself back into the future and stop crying over what was done in the past. 400 years and youre still offended? Get over it. Im sure your offended by it everytime you buy a new big screen tv. Or when you deposit your check, or when you pay your kids private school tuition, or when you go to Mickey Dee's and shove those fries down your throat.

And while the NFL players association did vote for this rule did you know they have one of the weakest unions in all of professional sports? I guess you dont remember the players crossing the picket lines during those strike years. Crossing picket lines is waving the white flag. Their union is weak and it was forced down their throats. Their union wasnt strong enough to fight against it so they were forced to accept it. SO dont try to make it look like they voted for it because they wanted it. They didnt want it but they had no choice but to accept it. Now whos the one whos uninformed? I dont present facts? Im sorry buddy but that is a well documented fact.

Go use your superior research abilities and find out for yourself. Im in a union, and there are times when ownership shoves things down our throats and we have to take it because membership didnt have the guts to fight it out. So please dont try to tell me about unions or union policies or politics. I have first hand knowledge of how unions work and if your membership isnt strong youre gonna get screwed everytime.

And while a player on a team of 53 doesnt have the power of a player on a 15 man team, the sentiment is still there whether you like it or not. I didnt make it up im just comparing how its affect, which has been described by players in a sport with a similar system, would be more detrimental to a team sport comprised of very few players. You let one guy holdout on a 53 man team the team can still play and still win, you let a guy hold out on a 15 man team and it can cost you your whole season. Everyone knows a disgruntled player who doesnt want to be on a team can become a huge problem.

But i guess a player who plays out his contract and is denied his desire to move on is ok with you. I guess if you wanted to leave your job for another company its ok for your boss to say no just because hes gonna play you the same amount?

PLayers dont only leave because of money. Maybe they dont like the coach, maybe they dont like the city, maybe God forbid they want to just play for another team. And denying anyone this right I guess is cool in your book huh?

I wonder if my brain will get bigger if i always look down my nose at everyone too? Maybe if I get a PHD in looking down my nose at the lesser beings Ill be as smart as you and ill know all these facts you claim to have over everyone else. Im not the only person your vaunted wisdom has tried to Lord over. You think because you post worthless stats it makes you better or smarter than anyone here?

I come here to talk about basketball and all its various components, you come here to correct everyone on thier views by making yours seem like the only real views worth listening to. That their views are stupid and you know better. Thats your MO. You come in and try to flash some stupid stats to make people feel inferior. I think you have a complex and it makes you feel more of a man to do so. Your personal remarks, no matter how well you try to disguise them, towards me and a hell of a lot others is proof of this.

You dont agree with my view thats cool, disagree. If you find my analogy offensive then say so but leave your stupid condecending look down your nose comments at the door. I dont need for people to agree with my views to enjoy posting and i dont need to berate or look down my nose at anyone to feel like a man. Your know it all, holier than thou attitude means absolutely nothing to me.

A Franchise Tag in the NBA will hurt the League. Based on how it affects the NFL players and their view of it. A disgruntled Franchised NBA player will have more of a affect on the team then a disgruntled Franchise NFL player on a 53 man roster. Thats not a fact that my opinion. Its fun. But because my opinion isnt based on facts its unworthy...rofl

And I like to suggest my huge theories because its fun. I dont need to build my self esteem by coming in here crapping on other peoples fun.

Alonzo said it best

"The newspaper is 90% ********, I read it because it entertains me"

This forum is 90% ********, but it entertains me. I dont use it to build myself or my self esteem like others seem to use it for.

SA5195
02-08-2011, 01:05 AM
Jeff Green and Marc Gasol to the Raptors hopefully.

That'd be soooooo nice. :drool:

Gambeezy
02-08-2011, 01:19 AM
Would like to see what Perks can do on a different team. I think playing on Boston makes him look better than he is, but I could be wrong.

I'd love to see Perk on OKC b/c there is a shortage of tough/physical centers in the NBA. What Perk lacks in offensive polish, he makes up for in grit and locking down opposing centers. He's young and could have a long career with OKC. Also, OKC has so many offensive weapons on that team that they just need an enforcer in the paint that can block shots, pull down rebounds and intimidate.

Defensive minded, big body centers seem to have long, productive careers. Look at Shaq, Alonzo Mourning, and McDyess. Those guys lost much of their offensive production around the rim with age but still posed a defensive threat which made them relevant to their teams.

hgtiger32
02-08-2011, 01:45 AM
Tyson Chandler to Thunder and they are even scarier

xbrackattackx
02-08-2011, 11:02 AM
How the hell did Nazr Mohammad ($6.9) get that kind of money? He's a 40yo scrub.

He is one of the most Underrated Centers in the game. Wait edit..just saw your join date.

daleja424
02-08-2011, 11:06 AM
That's a good class for teams who need depth for a deep playoff run.

On the CBA case, I think they should take out the MLE rule. It makes no sense to give teams who went over the cap a chance to get a quality player.

so do they get rid of bird rights too an institute a hard cap?

Thats laughable... This league is run by the big markets...

All of the big markets have a lot to lose without a soft cap with exceptions...

daleja424
02-08-2011, 11:09 AM
As for OKC... lets not forget that Jeff Green is a FA and will probably command something in the 8-10 mil range annually...