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aces01
02-05-2011, 09:41 PM
Two players of similar talent and stats. One player has rings, and the other doesn't.

Simple Question: Is the player with rings considered a better player, or is he actually a better player in your opinion?

tdunk21
02-05-2011, 09:46 PM
depends how much the player with ring contributed towards winning it all...

Cano4prez
02-05-2011, 09:48 PM
LeBron is better.

aces01
02-05-2011, 09:49 PM
Regardless, they have similar stats to player B if that makes sense. So if you decided to take the second best player on the championship team, they would have similar stats to the guy you're comparing them to anyway. Not sure if that makes sense, if not let me know.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 09:50 PM
LeBron is better.

You can't be serious........

Accomplishments >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hype......

Therefore Lebronze is a far far second.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 09:52 PM
Its all about the hardware plain and simple.......

you aint got any rings you aint shi t.

aces01
02-05-2011, 09:54 PM
Don't want this to turn into people bashing players, that is why I didn't give names in the original post.

IMO, I think the player with rings is just considered a better player. I don't think you can blame the one without rings for his "team" not winning. The whole team gets rings, not just the best player on it, and I think that shows that you can't just blame one player for not having a ring. Only in a sport like golf and tennis should rings be a deciding factor in my opinion.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 09:55 PM
Regardless, they have similar stats to player B if that makes sense. So if you decided to take the second best player on the championship team, they would have similar stats to the guy you're comparing them to anyway. Not sure if that makes sense, if not let me know.

Ya, well when you compare five rings to zero rings I think the answer is pretty obvious.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 09:56 PM
Don't want this to turn into people bashing players, that is why I didn't give names in the original post.

IMO, I think the player with rings is just considered a better player. I don't think you can blame the one without rings for his "team" not winning. The whole team gets rings, not just the best player on it, and I think that shows that you can't just blame one player for not having a ring. Only in a sport like golf and tennis should rings be a deciding factor in my opinion.

You didin't give any names, but we all knew what you meant. :facepalm:

Cano4prez
02-05-2011, 09:58 PM
You can't be serious........

Accomplishments >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hype......

Therefore Lebronze is a far far second.

As of right now, Lebron>Kobe.

aces01
02-05-2011, 09:58 PM
Ya, well when you compare five rings to zero rings I think the answer is pretty obvious.

Yea I actually just don't agree with it, and I know I'm probably in the minority there. Obviously you're talking about Lebron and Kobe, but I'm just talking about any players that fit the situation. I don't think it's fair to blame player B for not having a championship caliber team around him in a game like basketball.

On a side note, in my opinion, if you put Kobe on the Cavs last year, they're not winning in championship. If you put Lebron on the Lakers, they have a better chance than the Cavs do with Kobe.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 09:59 PM
Don't want this to turn into people bashing players, that is why I didn't give names in the original post.

IMO, I think the player with rings is just considered a better player. I don't think you can blame the one without rings for his "team" not winning. The whole team gets rings, not just the best player on it, and I think that shows that you can't just blame one player for not having a ring. Only in a sport like golf and tennis should rings be a deciding factor in my opinion.

By the same token you can't blame the player on the better team for not having the "stats" either because its not their fault that the team is better so they didn't have to contribute as much.

Ethix11
02-05-2011, 09:59 PM
Numbers dont lie

Yankeefan213
02-05-2011, 10:01 PM
Yea I actually just don't agree with it, and I know I'm probably in the minority there. Obviously you're talking about Lebron and Kobe, but I'm just talking about any players that fit the situation. I don't think it's fair to blame player B for not having a championship caliber team around him in a game like basketball.

On a side note, in my opinion, if you put Kobe on the Cavs last year, they're not winning in championship. If you put Lebron on the Lakers, they have a better chance than the Cavs do.

Couldn't agree more.

aces01
02-05-2011, 10:01 PM
You didin't give any names, but we all knew what you meant. :facepalm:

Actually didn't mean Lebron vs. Kobe at all..this argument is relative to sports other than basketball I just thought I'd post it in here.

You think that those two are the only two that apply to this situation, and that's not the case. We get it , you think Kobe is better than Lebron..that's fine I'm not telling you that you're not allowed to think that. As far as the post though, that's not what it's about.

Lim
02-05-2011, 10:02 PM
someones skill shouldnt be determined by how many rings one has. for example if u swapped lebron for kobe ur seriously gonna tell me lebron wouldnt be able to win multiple rings with that supporting cast? on the other hand if you put kobe on that cavs team in place of lebron do you really think kobe would win 5 rings? hell no. same reason why the best pg of all time has no rings.

ManRam
02-05-2011, 10:02 PM
Rings are an overrated individual metric.

Winning is a team effort. You simply cannot fault a player for being stuck on poor teams.

Rings matter, but people value them way too much. Seriously, way too much.

I'll use the most popular example...

No matter how many rings Kobe wins, he'll never be as good of a player as Jordan. He never was better than him, he'll never be better than him, and winning more rings doesn't change that fact.

MSU4life
02-05-2011, 10:02 PM
^neither do rings

aces01
02-05-2011, 10:03 PM
By the same token you can't blame the player on the better team for not having the "stats" either because its not their fault that the team is better so they didn't have to contribute as much.

Which is exactly why I said they have similar stats in the original post..

amos1er
02-05-2011, 10:03 PM
Yea I actually just don't agree with it, and I know I'm probably in the minority there. Obviously you're talking about Lebron and Kobe, but I'm just talking about any players that fit the situation. I don't think it's fair to blame player B for not having a championship caliber team around him in a game like basketball.

On a side note, in my opinion, if you put Kobe on the Cavs last year, they're not winning in championship. If you put Lebron on the Lakers, they have a better chance than the Cavs do.

Well in my opinion you know nothing about basketball because if Lebron were on the Lakers last year there is no way they win it all because the Lakers are a team that runs the triangle, and coached by Phil Jackson.

It takes a few season for a player to pick up the triangle, and a few more to get good at it and even more to come close to mastering it.

No way Lebron could pick it up in one season.

Besides, Lebron is a stat whore and needs to either dish the ball or shoot the ball on every possession.......good luck learning the triangle with that kind of basketball philosophy.

aces01
02-05-2011, 10:04 PM
Rings are an overrated individual metric.

Winning is a team effort. You simply cannot fault a player for being stuck on poor teams.

Rings matter, but people value them way too much. Seriously, way too much.

I'll use the most popular example...

No matter how many rings Kobe wins, he'll never be as good of a player as Jordan. He never was better than him, he'll never be better than him, and winning more rings doesn't change that fact.

Couldn't agree more with you, rings matter, but they aren't the deciding factor in who's better.

Cano4prez
02-05-2011, 10:04 PM
Well in my opinion you know nothing about basketball because if Lebron were on the Lakers last year there is no way they win it all because the Lakers are a team that runs the triangle, and coached by Phil Jackson.

It takes a few season for a player to pick up the triangle, and a few more to get good at it and even more to come close to mastering it.

No way Lebron could pick it up in one season.

Besides, Lebron is a stat whore and needs to either dish the ball or shoot the ball on every possession.......good luck learning the triangle with that kind of basketball philosophy.

:facepalm:

amos1er
02-05-2011, 10:05 PM
someones skill shouldnt be determined by how many rings one has. for example if u swapped lebron for kobe ur seriously gonna tell me lebron wouldnt be able to win multiple rings with that supporting cast? on the other hand if you put kobe on that cavs team in place of lebron do you really think kobe would win 5 rings? hell no. same reason why the best pg of all time has no rings.

You too know nothing about basketball. The best pg of all time would either be Magic Johnson, or Oscar Roberston. Both have won rings. :facepalm:

kjoke
02-05-2011, 10:06 PM
why do even have this kobe lebron arguement.


laker fans can gladly have kobe, i much more want lebron./ hope your happy

amos1er
02-05-2011, 10:07 PM
Couldn't agree more with you, rings matter, but they aren't the deciding factor in who's better.

I agree that rings aren't the deciding factor, but they sure as hell are an important factor.

aces01
02-05-2011, 10:07 PM
Well in my opinion you know nothing about basketball because if Lebron were on the Lakers last year there is no way they win it all because the Lakers are a team that runs the triangle, and coached by Phil Jackson.

It takes a few season for a player to pick up the triangle, and a few more to get good at it and even more to come close to mastering it.

No way Lebron could pick it up in one season.

Besides, Lebron is a stat whore and needs to either dish the ball or shoot the ball on every possession.......good luck learning the triangle with that kind of basketball philosophy.

So Kobe could have played better with the Cavs supporting cast? If that's what you're saying, then we're just not going to agree. They play different styles of basketball, there's no arguing that.

I just said in my opinion, Kobe wasn't carrying the Cavs to a championship, so you can't blame Lebron for not doing it either.

You're obviously someone who thinks the one with rings is the better player, that's fair. No need to bash someone who has a different opinion, that's a battle you can't win.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 10:08 PM
why do even have this kobe lebron arguement.


laker fans can gladly have kobe, i much more want lebron./ hope your happy

And you much more will have that much less of a chance at winning a ring.

Young and Stupid
02-05-2011, 10:09 PM
LeBron James has been better than Kobe Bryant for the past three seasons. You can't compare their careers because they're at completely different stages.

Kobe has played alongside far more talent than LeBron has. The best player LeBron has played next to is probably Mo Williams (or Jamison take your pick). If you compare that to Kobe's list of players you probably wouldn't get down to Williams until around the fifteen to twenty range.

Rings are overrated in terms of evaluating an individual player's success, however they will never cease to be the ultimate tool of measurement when assessing an NBA player's career. It's not logical, but it is what it is.

michael811
02-05-2011, 10:10 PM
someones skill shouldnt be determined by how many rings one has. for example if u swapped lebron for kobe ur seriously gonna tell me lebron wouldnt be able to win multiple rings with that supporting cast? on the other hand if you put kobe on that cavs team in place of lebron do you really think kobe would win 5 rings? hell no. same reason why the best pg of all time has no rings.

If Lebron and Kobe had switched places Kobe doesn't have to have 5 rings to better Lebron he only needs to win one game in an Nba Finals to do it and in a weak at the time East I don't see why he couldn't have. Lebron doing better than 5 rings in LA well thats a pretty tall order.

On the original subject of the article I will take the guy with the rings with few exceptions as being the better player

aces01
02-05-2011, 10:10 PM
And you much more will have that much less of a chance at winning a ring.

Just vote in the poll, and let that be the end of it. No need to turn this into a Kobe fanboy thread. You're allowed to think Kobe's the best, but if you're going to post, don't just make it about those two players. Just post WHY you think the player with rings is better, not why Kobe is better than Lebron.

kjoke
02-05-2011, 10:11 PM
And you much more will have that much less of a chance at winning a ring.

cool story bro, if you want to keep posting say something you havent said we all know all you are going to do for the next how many pages is refer to kobes ring total. No need to stretch out your idiotic argument based solely on fallacious logic and incomprehensible points.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 10:11 PM
So Kobe could have played better with the Cavs supporting cast? If that's what you're saying, then we're just not going to agree. They play different styles of basketball, there's no arguing that.

I just said in my opinion, Kobe wasn't carrying the Cavs to a championship, so you can't blame Lebron for not doing it either.

You're obviously someone who thinks the one with rings is the better player, that's fair. No need to bash someone who has a different opinion, that's a battle you can't win.

I never said that Kobe could have carried the Cavs to a championship.

I just said that it was a foolish statement to assume, as you said, "the Lakers would have a better chance at winning with Lebron instead of Kobe".

I simply brought up the fact that since the Lakers run the triangle and since Lebron has no idea how to run the triangle and would take many seasons to learn how to do so effectively, that made it an extremely foolish statement.

Lim
02-05-2011, 10:11 PM
lol this is a team sport, rings don't determine who is the better player.. golf on the other hand ud be correct. some players are just fortunate enough to be on a better team then others.

CHANGO
02-05-2011, 10:12 PM
Lmao!

aces01
02-05-2011, 10:13 PM
LeBron James has been better than Kobe Bryant for the past three seasons. You can't compare their careers because they're at completely different stages.

Kobe has played alongside far more talent than LeBron has. The best player LeBron has played next to is probably Mo Williams (or Jamison take your pick). If you compare that to Kobe's list of players you probably wouldn't get down to Williams until around the fifteen to twenty range.

Rings are overrated in terms of evaluating an individual player's success, however they will never cease to be the ultimate tool of measurement when assessing an NBA player's career. It's not logical, but it is what it is.

Those are exactly my thoughts, I don't think it will ever change, but I do think it's overrated. Granted, it's everyone's goal to win the championship each season, but that's why it's everyone's, not just one player trying to do it.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 10:13 PM
cool story bro, if you want to keep posting say something you havent said we all know all you are going to do for the next how many pages is refer to kobes ring total. No need to stretch out your idiotic argument based solely on fallacious logic and incomprehensible points.

There is no argument because no one here because no one has made any valid one. All I hear is a bunch of Kobe hate and people foolishly saying Lebron is better with nothing to back up their claims.

Sadds The Gr8
02-05-2011, 10:13 PM
Ya, well when you compare five rings to zero rings I think the answer is pretty obvious.

so Horry>Dirk? Scalabrine>Lebron?

:facepalm:

hugepatsfan
02-05-2011, 10:15 PM
It does matter more in basketball to me because one player has much more importance than in any other sport. But it is still a team accomplishment, not an individual one.

aces01
02-05-2011, 10:15 PM
I never said that Kobe could have carried the Cavs to a championship.

I just said that it was a foolish statement to assume, as you said, "the Lakers would have a better chance at winning with Lebron instead of Kobe".

I simply brought up the fact that since the Lakers run the triangle and since Lebron has no idea how to run the triangle and would take many seasons to learn how to do so effectively, that made it an extremely foolish statement.

That's my fault if that's what I posted. I didn't check what I said, but what I meant was..

The Lakers with Lebron would have a better chance at a championship than the Cavaliers with Kobe. I didn't mean the Lakers with Lebron would have a better chance than the Lakers with Kobe.

That's just my opinion though, I'm sure some of you would disagree.

Lim
02-05-2011, 10:16 PM
If Lebron and Kobe had switched places Kobe doesn't have to have 5 rings to better Lebron he only needs to win one game in an Nba Finals to do it and in a weak at the time East I don't see why he couldn't have. Lebron doing better than 5 rings in LA well thats a pretty tall order.

On the original subject of the article I will take the guy with the rings with few exceptions as being the better player

refer to post #28. he basically said what i was trying to say but better

Sadds The Gr8
02-05-2011, 10:17 PM
Rings are an overrated individual metric.

Winning is a team effort. You simply cannot fault a player for being stuck on poor teams.

Rings matter, but people value them way too much. Seriously, way too much.

I'll use the most popular example...

No matter how many rings Kobe wins, he'll never be as good of a player as Jordan. He never was better than him, he'll never be better than him, and winning more rings doesn't change that fact.

i agree, but try telling that to the Kobe nuthuggers.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 10:20 PM
so Horry>Dirk? Scalabrine>Lebron?

:facepalm:

That is a very silly argument.

Its clearly obvious that Kobe was a much greater contributor than Scalabrine or Horry.

Kobe was either the second best, equal to first best, or the best contributor on all his championship teams.

Those were roll players that you brought up, not main contributors. Not comparable. :rolleyes:

amos1er
02-05-2011, 10:23 PM
refer to post #28. he basically said what i was trying to say but better

You have already proven that you have no clout here.

You can't even admit that either Magic Johnson or Oscar Roberston are the best pg's of all time.

The only other pg with out rings that you could have been referring to would be Nash or Stockton. In either case..................:laugh:

aces01
02-05-2011, 10:23 PM
Amos I'm just curious to what your opinion is. Do you agree with my post before about the Lakers with Lebron have a better shot at a ring than the Cavs with Kobe do?

FadeAwayLikeMJ
02-05-2011, 10:24 PM
I entered this thread figuring I would see a "Monta Ellis" post.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 10:25 PM
Amos I'm just curious to what your opinion is. Do you agree with my post before about the Lakers with Lebron have a better shot at a ring than the Cavs with Kobe do?

I already told you, its really hard to say as the Lakers run the triangle and by the time Lebron learned the triangle, Pau and Lamar would be too old for the Lakers to be in contention anymore.

Now if you put Kobe on the Cavs, I don't think they have a great shot at winning it all either.

With all that said, if I were a GM, I would take the player with proven winning experience.

D Roses Bulls
02-05-2011, 10:27 PM
it all depends

Sadds The Gr8
02-05-2011, 10:28 PM
That is a very silly argument.

Its clearly obvious that Kobe was a much greater contributor than Scalabrine or Horry.

Kobe was either the second best, equal to first best, or the best contributor on all his championship teams.

Those were roll players that you brought up, not main contributors. Not comparable. :rolleyes:
u said anyone with a ring is better than anyone without one.

and even so...claiming

Gasol> Malone
Billups>Nash/Kidd
Parker>Stockton

is stupid as well. All those guys on the left are main contributors and they aren't even close to being better than the guys on the right.

aces01
02-05-2011, 10:29 PM
I already told you, its really hard to say as the Lakers run the triangle and by the time Lebron learned the triangle, Pau and Lamar would be too old for the Lakers to be in contention anymore.

Now if you put Kobe on the Cavs, I don't think they have a great shot at winning it all either.

With all that said, if I were a GM, I would take the player with proven winning experience.

That's fair, what I was referring to is last season. I just think that a "newly learned" triangle offense on the Lakers would be better than Kobe picking up the offense on the Cavs.

Sure, both teams were built around their player because each plays differently, I was just wondering hypothetically.

Lim
02-05-2011, 10:29 PM
You have already proven that you have no clout here.

You can't even admit that either Magic Johnson or Oscar Roberston are the best pg's of all time.

The only other pg with out rings that you could have been referring to would be Nash or Stockton. In either case..................:laugh:

You have already proven that you are a closed-minded homer who is pointless to argue with. This isnt a debate about who is the best pg, i was just using an example.

aces01
02-05-2011, 10:31 PM
u said anyone with a ring is better than anyone without one.

and even so...claiming

Gasol> Malone
Billups>Nash/Kidd
Parker>Stockton

is stupid as well. All those guys on the left are main contributors and they aren't even close to being better than the guys on the right.

:clap: Well said.

Geargo Wallace
02-05-2011, 10:38 PM
LeBron is better.

he is the better player. He's better than Kobe ever was.

BUT

Kobe's legacy is >>>>> than LeBron's by far... for now!

psperry34116
02-05-2011, 10:38 PM
I think it totally depends on which players your comparing. Calling Wade better than LeBron is much more legit than calling Scal better than LeBron. If players are in the same league, I think the one with the ring deserves the benefit of the doubt.

aces01
02-05-2011, 10:40 PM
I think it totally depends on which players your comparing. Calling Wade better than LeBron is much more legit than calling Scal better than LeBron. If players are in the same league, I think the one with the ring deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Yea the question was two players with similar stats, so yes they would be in the same league.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 10:41 PM
u said anyone with a ring is better than anyone without one.

and even so...claiming

Gasol> Malone
Billups>Nash/Kidd
Parker>Stockton

is stupid as well. All those guys on the left are main contributors and they aren't even close to being better than the guys on the right.

Gasol was the second best on his team for both rings

Billups was a one hit wonder and was the best player on his team, but not by much. That was a fluke and was more due to the Lakers folding more than the Pistons being the better team that year.

Parker was either the second or third best player on his team for all his rings. Don't let his finals MVP fool you, he was still the second best player in 2007.

Kobe was clearly the best player on his team for two of his rings, and was pretty much an equal contributor for the 01 and 02 championships.

Kobe is clearly a top ten player in NBA history according to many experts. Billups, Parker, and Gasol are all good players and will probably make the Hall of Fame, but are nowhere near in Kobe's league. Not the best comparison.

knightstemplar
02-05-2011, 10:42 PM
he is the better player. He's better than Kobe ever was.

BUT

Kobe's legacy is >>>>> than LeBron's by far... for now!

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

amos1er
02-05-2011, 10:43 PM
You have already proven that you are a closed-minded homer who is pointless to argue with. This isnt a debate about who is the best pg, i was just using an example.

And you used a very poor example. Thats all I'm saying.

mrs rose
02-05-2011, 10:43 PM
well,
i saw this same debate on first take in reguards to big ben and a rodgers.
NO.. I DONT THINK RINGS MATTER.

just like in football dan marino never got a ring, and trent dilfer was on the ravens in 2000 but that doesnt make him better than dan (I HOPE WE ALL AGREE ON THAT)
sometimes players luck up and get on a team that has a COMPLETE team to win it all.

same as in other team sport, i see the kobe vs lbj debate..
in no way does that defined nothing. because you see that team with lbj currently that was not a championship team (and thats why he left)
same as kobe crying about not having support before gasol got there. (you take gasol off, and kobe is still exiting the playoffs in the first round.
need proof see the lakers after shaq left, and see the lakers when gasol arrives.


so no rings dont matter.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 10:44 PM
I think it totally depends on which players your comparing. Calling Wade better than LeBron is much more legit than calling Scal better than LeBron. If players are in the same league, I think the one with the ring deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Exactly. :clap:

amos1er
02-05-2011, 10:45 PM
well,
i saw this same debate on first take in reguards to big ben and a rodgers.
NO.. I DONT THINK RINGS MATTER.

just like in football dan marino never got a ring, and trent dilfer was on the ravens in 2000 but that doesnt make him better than dan (I HOPE WE ALL AGREE ON THAT)
sometimes players luck up and get on a team that has a COMPLETE team to win it all.

same as in other team sport, i see the kobe vs lbj debate..
in no way does that defined nothing. because you see that team with lbj currently that was not a championship team (and thats why he left)
same as kobe crying about not having support before gasol got there. (you take gasol off, and kobe is still exiting the playoffs in the first round.
need proof see the lakers after shaq left, and see the lakers when gasol arrives.


so no rings dont matter.

If rings dont matter, then why did Lebron ditch his team to partner up with Wade and Bosh?

junion
02-05-2011, 10:45 PM
not enough information to get a good answer. someone with rings who didn't contribute much wouldn't be better than someone without rings who's been to the finals 5 times.

there's not enough information, and it's not just about number of rings, it's also about everything around it. minutes played, importance to the team, etc.

knightstemplar
02-05-2011, 10:46 PM
well,
i saw this same debate on first take in reguards to big ben and a rodgers.
NO.. I DONT THINK RINGS MATTER.

just like in football dan marino never got a ring, and trent dilfer was on the ravens in 2000 but that doesnt make him better than dan (I HOPE WE ALL AGREE ON THAT)
sometimes players luck up and get on a team that has a COMPLETE team to win it all.

same as in other team sport, i see the kobe vs lbj debate..
in no way does that defined nothing. because you see that team with lbj currently that was not a championship team (and thats why he left)
same as kobe crying about not having support before gasol got there. (you take gasol off, and kobe is still exiting the playoffs in the first round.
need proof see the lakers after shaq left, and see the lakers when gasol arrives.


so no rings dont matter.

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

ManRam
02-05-2011, 10:46 PM
it all depends

If you swapped Kobe and LeBron the last 6 years, how many rings do you think each have?

D Roses Bulls
02-05-2011, 10:47 PM
well,
i saw this same debate on first take in reguards to big ben and a rodgers.
NO.. I DONT THINK RINGS MATTER.

just like in football dan marino never got a ring, and trent dilfer was on the ravens in 2000 but that doesnt make him better than dan (I HOPE WE ALL AGREE ON THAT)
sometimes players luck up and get on a team that has a COMPLETE team to win it all.

same as in other team sport, i see the kobe vs lbj debate..
in no way does that defined nothing. because you see that team with lbj currently that was not a championship team (and thats why he left)
same as kobe crying about not having support before gasol got there. (you take gasol off, and kobe is still exiting the playoffs in the first round.
need proof see the lakers after shaq left, and see the lakers when gasol arrives.


so no rings dont matter.

but that also matters on who you are comparing. if you are comparing robert horry to karl malone then it doesnt matter, but if you are comparing magic johnson to larry bird, yeah I would say it mattered when it's all said and done.

aces01
02-05-2011, 10:47 PM
Gasol was the second best on his team for both rings

Billups was a one hit wonder and was the best player on his team, but not by much. That was a fluke and was more due to the Lakers folding more than the Pistons being the better team that year.

Parker was either the second or third best player on his team for all his rings. Don't let his finals MVP fool you, he was still the second best player in 2007.

Kobe was clearly the best player on his team for two of his rings, and was pretty much an equal contributor for the 01 and 02 championships.

Kobe is clearly a top ten player in NBA history according to many experts. Billups, Parker, and Gasol are all good players and will probably make the Hall of Fame, but are nowhere near in Kobe's league. Not the best comparison.

I don't see your point here by pointing out that you think each player was second best on their team. Either Malone or Stockton had to be second best on their team too.. These players are comparable regardless. His point was showing that he doesn't think rings determine the better player out of two comparable ones.

justinnum1
02-05-2011, 10:47 PM
If rings dont matter, then why did Lebron ditch his team to partner up with Wade and Bosh?

Why should he keep playing with scrubs when he can play with his buddies?

amos1er
02-05-2011, 10:48 PM
not enough information to get a good answer. someone with rings who didn't contribute much wouldn't be better than someone without rings who's been to the finals 5 times.

there's not enough information, and it's not just about number of rings, it's also about everything around it. minutes played, importance to the team, etc.

Exactly, its clear that Kobe was very instrumental in all five of his rings. It makes no sense to compare him to Billups, Parker, or Gasol. He obviously is the better individual player and has accomplished more.

In the case of Kobe Lebron, its debatable who is currently better, but in his prime, Kobe was the better individual player and has far more accomplishments.

justinnum1
02-05-2011, 10:48 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

D Roses Bulls
02-05-2011, 10:48 PM
If you swapped Kobe and LeBron the last 6 years, how many rings do you think each have?

that's a tough one...... I could make a case for both actually, but we'll never know.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 10:50 PM
I don't see your point here by pointing out that you think each player was second best on their team. Either Malone or Stockton had to be second best on their team too.. These players are comparable regardless. His point was showing that he doesn't think rings determine the better player out of two comparable ones.

Anyone with any sort of basketball knowledge will say that Tim Duncan was better than Malone even though they had similar stats. This is due to the fact that Tim has four rings to Malones zero.

mrs rose
02-05-2011, 10:50 PM
If rings dont matter, then why did Lebron ditch his team to partner up with Wade and Bosh?

in terms of comparing who is the better player it doesnt matter.

but in order to just win, and be in the position to win is two different things.

i dont think he went to miami to be in the debate if he is better than kobe or is he mj.
but i think he went to miami to have the chance to WIN, and yes you do get a RING when you win.

but i really doubt players go to teams, or lbj went to the heat just to be in debate with other players on who is the better player.


he went to win

better player is an indivdual stat....

being on a championship TEAM key word is TEAM.. there is no I, IN TEAM..
is different

think about those who were great, but didnt have the better team to win it all... ill give u.
karl marlone
reggie miller
charles barkley
patwick ewing
and many others.. they were great INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS but never had the complete team!

amos1er
02-05-2011, 10:51 PM
Why should he keep playing with scrubs when he can play with his buddies?

Exactly my point, he wants to play with his buddies because it give him a better chance to win a ring. Which just shows the importance of winning rings.

aces01
02-05-2011, 10:52 PM
Why should he keep playing with scrubs when he can play with his buddies?

:up: Exactly what I think. Everyone wants to win rings..that's not even debatable. What's debatable is whether or not they are the deciding factor between two similar players. If you're seriously going to blame Lebron for wanting to get a ring, then you might as well blame every single player in the league.

knightstemplar
02-05-2011, 10:52 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

stfu bandwagon heat fan

mrs rose
02-05-2011, 10:53 PM
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

i like it justinnum.. lol

aces01
02-05-2011, 10:55 PM
Anyone with any sort of basketball knowledge will say that Tim Duncan was better than Malone even though they had similar stats. This is due to the fact that Tim has four rings to Malones zero.

?? That's not even what you were talking about. You were saying that Billups and Parker weren't the best on their team. What I'm saying is that doesn't matter as long as you're comparing them to someone comparable.

For example, the 5th best player on Team A might be comparable to the best player on team B. The rank on the team doesn't matter, only the comparison between the two players.

Lim
02-05-2011, 10:55 PM
Exactly, its clear that Kobe was very instrumental in all five of his rings. It makes no sense to compare him to Billups, Parker, or Gasol. He obviously is the better individual player and has accomplished more.

In the case of Kobe Lebron, its debatable who is currently better, but in his prime, Kobe was the better individual player and has far more accomplishments.

stop man, step outside of yourself for once and realize ur thinking with your homer brain and not your real brain. kobe has far more accomplishments yes, but theres no way in hell he is the better individual player. lebron is already better then kobe ever was, individually.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

just compare the 2 and remember, use your brain not your homer brain

amos1er
02-05-2011, 10:56 PM
in terms of comparing who is the better player it doesnt matter.

but in order to just win, and be in the position to win is two different things.

i dont think he went to miami to be in the debate if he is better than kobe or is he mj.
but i think he went to miami to have the chance to WIN, and yes you do get a RING when you win.

but i really doubt players go to teams, or lbj went to the heat just to be in debate with other players on who is the better player.


he went to win

better player is an indivdual stat....

being on a championship TEAM key word is TEAM.. there is no I, IN TEAM..
is different

think about those who were great, but didnt have the better team to win it all... ill give u.
karl marlone
reggie miller
charles barkley
patwick ewing
and many others.. they were great INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS but never had the complete team!

Barkley and Malone had similar stats to Duncan, but every basketball expert in the world will agree that Tim's rings make him to be considered the better player.

Don't blame me, thats just how the experts and analysts choose to measure greatness.

Kobe and Lebron are both great individual players, but when they are compared by the experts, they give Kobe the nod, due to his five rings and Lebrons zero.

Kobe has proven that he can win on the highest level and thats a very important tool in measuring greatness.

Lebron has had the chance to go all the way, he made it to the finals in 07, and had the best regular season records in 09 and 10, he just hasn't proven that he could go all the way just as Malone and Barkely proved. Both made it to the finals, but couldn't get the job done.

D Roses Bulls
02-05-2011, 10:57 PM
in terms of comparing who is the better player it doesnt matter.

but in order to just win, and be in the position to win is two different things.

i dont think he went to miami to be in the debate if he is better than kobe or is he mj.
but i think he went to miami to have the chance to WIN, and yes you do get a RING when you win.

but i really doubt players go to teams, or lbj went to the heat just to be in debate with other players on who is the better player.


he went to win

better player is an indivdual stat....

being on a championship TEAM key word is TEAM.. there is no I, IN TEAM..
is different

think about those who were great, but didnt have the better team to win it all... ill give u.
karl marlone
reggie miller
charles barkley
patwick ewing
and many others.. they were great INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS but never had the complete team!

and what was the one thing all those guys had in common? they had to go through michael jordan. Karl malone would of had a couple if it weren't for jordan. barkley would of had one if it wasn't for jordan as well as ewing. reggie miller had his chance after MJ retired as recently as the 04-05 season and if it weren't for mallice at the palace incident, he would of had a real good chance to win one cause that team was stacked. people cut those guys slack because they had to go through jordan year after year. It's like if lebron had lost to kobe, he might be getting some slack, but he never even met kobe in a finals and thats why so many people don't cut him the slack.

D Roses Bulls
02-05-2011, 10:58 PM
stfu bandwagon heat fan

:laugh:

knightstemplar
02-05-2011, 10:59 PM
who cares whos better, we all have different opinions anyway
we will never agree 100%

Hellcrooner
02-05-2011, 10:59 PM
you would have to go case by case.

Sometimes stats are empty.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 10:59 PM
stop man, step outside of yourself for once and realize ur thinking with your homer brain and not your real brain. kobe has far more accomplishments yes, but theres no way in hell he is the better individual player. lebron is already better then kobe ever was, individually.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

just compare the 2 and remember, use your brain not your homer brain

Again, you have no clout here. You don't think that the greatest pg of all time was either Magic or Big O. Talk about using your homer brain....:rolleyes:

again, I'm just mirroring what the experts all say. Kobe is a proven winner and Lebron isn't. Its that simple. The most important thing in any sport is winning, not stats. You and John Hollinger can go make all the statistical calculations you want, but in the end it comes down to winning, not math.

mrs rose
02-05-2011, 11:00 PM
:up: Exactly what I think. Everyone wants to win rings..that's not even debatable. What's debatable is whether or not they are the deciding factor between two similar players. If you're seriously going to blame Lebron for wanting to get a ring, then you might as well blame every single player in the league.

yup,
but then you will get the guys who will say. its not fair that he did it in his prime..
he should have stayed until he was broken to show he did all he could to get that city a ring :facepalm:

at the end of the day their is no rule that you must stay in one city.
even the great mj didnt stay with the bulls..
pippen left.. malone left...payton left... shaq left many times.. and kg + ray allen left..

what is the big deal, the man made the best decision for him.
and to me doesnt change his greatness/legacy. to be honest i think he hurt him in the beginning but i think he doesnt care at all.

he seems to enjoy the hating, and perform better.

but if equal players have similar stats, but one does have the hardware.

it doesnt change my views, the person who has the hardware had the better team, and doesnt change the view of the other person greatness. but thats IMO.

Stats are the difference to me, especially the time its done in.

like i still think dan marino is better than farve. when you look at the time marino did it in vs the time farve did it in.
supporting cast..
things of that nature dan>brett.

aces01
02-05-2011, 11:01 PM
Barkley and Malone had similar stats to Duncan, but every basketball expert in the world will agree that Tim's rings make him to be considered the better player.

Don't blame me, thats just how the experts and analysts choose to measure greatness.

Kobe and Lebron are both great individual players, but when they are compared by the experts, they give Kobe the nod, due to his five rings and Lebrons zero.

Kobe has proven that he can win on the highest level and thats a very important tool in measuring greatness.

Lebron has had the chance to go all the way, he made it to the finals in 07, and had the best regular season records in 09 and 10, he just hasn't proven that he could go all the way just as Malone and Barkely proved. Both made it to the finals, but couldn't get the job done.

Really funny you said that actually, I feel like you are the one saying they are the better player not just considered it.

aces01
02-05-2011, 11:03 PM
yup,
but then you will get the guys who will say. its not fair that he did it in his prime..
he should have stayed until he was broken to show he did all he could to get that city a ring :facepalm:

at the end of the day their is no rule that you must stay in one city.
even the great mj didnt stay with the bulls..
pippen left.. malone left...payton left... shaq left many times.. and kg + ray allen left..

what is the big deal, the man made the best decision for him.
and to me doesnt change his greatness/legacy. to be honest i think he hurt him in the beginning but i think he doesnt care at all.

he seems to enjoy the hating, and perform better.

but if equal players have similar stats, but one does have the hardware.

it doesnt change my views, the person who has the hardware had the better team, and doesnt change the view of the other person greatness. but thats IMO.

Stats are the difference to me, especially the time its done in.

like i still think dan marino is better than farve. when you look at the time marino did it in vs the time farve did it in.
supporting cast..
things of that nature dan>brett.

Agreed with everything you said. Rings just show who had the better team.

knightstemplar
02-05-2011, 11:03 PM
stop man, step outside of yourself for once and realize ur thinking with your homer brain and not your real brain. kobe has far more accomplishments yes, but theres no way in hell he is the better individual player. lebron is already better then kobe ever was, individually.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

just compare the 2 and remember, use your brain not your homer brain

:facepalm: Are you serious

heathonater
02-05-2011, 11:04 PM
if two players have equal stats and had comparable talent on their team, then you can use rings too compare players. but arguing a player is better simply because he has more rings is invalid, since one player cant win a title by himself.

Lim
02-05-2011, 11:05 PM
Again, you have no clout here. You don't think that the greatest pg of all time was either Magic or Big O. Talk about using your homer brain....:rolleyes:

again, I'm just mirroring what the experts all say. Kobe is a proven winner and Lebron isn't. Its that simple. The most important thing in any sport is winning, not stats. You and John Hollinger can go make all the statistical calculations you want, but in the end it comes down to winning, not math.

way to ignore my post. and how can i be a homer if i was never a suns fan or a utah jazz fan? im a 76ers fan lol.

SteBO
02-05-2011, 11:05 PM
stfu bandwagon heat fan
:pity: Grow up man

D Roses Bulls
02-05-2011, 11:07 PM
stop man, step outside of yourself for once and realize ur thinking with your homer brain and not your real brain. kobe has far more accomplishments yes, but theres no way in hell he is the better individual player. lebron is already better then kobe ever was, individually.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

just compare the 2 and remember, use your brain not your homer brain

:facepalm: you gotta be kidding

Lim
02-05-2011, 11:07 PM
:facepalm: Are you serious

yep

AsiandudePH
02-05-2011, 11:08 PM
Well, if you're comparing greatness per stats of an individual, my take on it is--and most of you LeBron lovers spit this out yourselves:

LeBron has sucky teammates in the past - less good/great teammates means he'll get more chance to do stuff more himself hence the better stats.

Now, when Kobe had sucky teammates he scored like no one else can. That's his mindset, that's his skill -- scoring, second is passing. His lean frame and guard height and strength limits him to what he do best so don't compare LeBron's bulldozing in the lane to score, rebounding skills and passing.

IMO LeBron, and I'm no hater, is a SUPERSTAR ROLE PLAYER, if there's such a thing. He's an anomaly. He's great because rare is a player with skills + athleticism and physical gifts. POUND FOR POUND, he's like Shaq in his prime. He's an anomaly.

As an all around basketball player, LeBron is better. As a scorer, the most heart Kobe is way ahead.

Lim
02-05-2011, 11:10 PM
if two players have equal stats and had comparable talent on their team, then you can use rings too compare players. but arguing a player is better simply because he has more rings is invalid, since one player cant win a title by himself.

ding ding ding!

amos1er
02-05-2011, 11:11 PM
?? That's not even what you were talking about. You were saying that Billups and Parker weren't the best on their team. What I'm saying is that doesn't matter as long as you're comparing them to someone comparable.

For example, the 5th best player on Team A might be comparable to the best player on team B. The rank on the team doesn't matter, only the comparison between the two players.

There are some isolated cases that you can make that prove the player with no rings is better that the one with rings.

That has no bearing when comparing Kobe and Lebron. Kobe has FIVE MORE RINGS. thats a hell of a difference. In his prime, Kobe dropped 81 points and 62 in three quarters. He is considered a top three offensive player of all time and has made 7 all NBA first defensive teams and 3 second teams.

His scoring prowess in his prime is leaps and bounds better than Lebrons and his defensive legacy is a joke to compare to Lebrons. All Lebron has over Kobe is assists and rebounds. Big ****ing deal. Those stats are a result of the system he ran in where he would either shoot the ball or pass the ball on every single possession.

How many tripple doubles is he posting now that he is playing along side Wade and Bosh? Not nearly as many as he did in the Cavs system. Who gives a crap about tripple doubles anyways. I'll take the guy who can get the job done in crunch time and can deliver championships. Offensively Kobe is better, and defensively Kobe is better. Therefore Kobe is better individually. Add that to his five rings and Lebrons zero and this isn't even up for debate anymore.

mrs rose
02-05-2011, 11:14 PM
stfu bandwagon heat fan

^ what i find crazy about this,
is how do you know he is a band wagon fan?
just because he mentions lebron in a positive light?
if that merits your profane language towards someone you CLEARLY dont know then you might want to check yourself.

this dude has been a fan of the heat for YEARS.....
not every heat fan just became a fan when lbj, and friends came along.

most have been thru the 15 game season..
the first round exits...
the years of timmy and zo..
the steve smith years, and glen rice before he was a laker.

dont judge every fan, because you FEEL that since lbj came with other good players.. all fans are bandwagon

knightstemplar
02-05-2011, 11:14 PM
even if you have a good supporting cast, your best player has to step up and lead the team to the title

aces01
02-05-2011, 11:14 PM
Well, if you're comparing greatness per stats of an individual, my take on it is--and most of you LeBron lovers spit this out yourselves:

LeBron has sucky teammates in the past - less good/great teammates means he'll get more chance to do stuff more himself hence the better stats.

Now, when Kobe had sucky teammates he scored like no one else can. That's his mindset, that's his skill -- scoring, second is passing. His lean frame and guard height and strength limits him to what he do best so don't compare LeBron's bulldozing in the lane to score, rebounding skills and passing.

IMO LeBron, and I'm no hater, is a SUPERSTAR ROLE PLAYER, if there's such a thing. He's an anomaly. He's great because rare is a player with skills + athleticism and physical gifts. POUND FOR POUND, he's like Shaq in his prime. He's an anomaly.

As an all around basketball player, LeBron is better. As a scorer, the most heart Kobe is way ahead.

I agree with some of what you said. When you said Lebron hasn't had as great of teammates means that he will do more stuff himself could be correct. But when you said "hence, the better stats" is where you lost me. Trying to do it by yourself can actually hurt your stats in my opinion.

It could be argued that it's easier for you to score when you have better players because there's less of a chance of you getting doubled. When a defense can just zone in on one player to stop, I would say it's harder for them to score. You were right saying that they have to do more themselves, I just don't think that leads to better stats.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 11:15 PM
Really funny you said that actually, I feel like you are the one saying they are the better player not just considered it.

The point I'm making is that it is the greatest experts and analysts who consider this. The fact that they consider Kobe better, is good enough for me to say without a doubt Kobe is better that Lebron. Plus I feel is should be fairly obvious to every non hater out there.

Lim
02-05-2011, 11:17 PM
There are some isolated cases that you can make that prove the player with no rings is better that the one with rings.

That has no bearing when comparing Kobe and Lebron. Kobe has FIVE MORE RINGS. thats a hell of a difference. In his prime, Kobe dropped 81 points and 62 in three quarters. He is considered a top three offensive player of all time and has made 7 all NBA first defensive teams and 3 second teams.

His scoring prowess in his prime is leaps and bounds better than Lebrons and his defensive legacy is a joke to compare to Lebrons. All Lebron has over Kobe is assists and rebounds. Big ****ing deal. Those stats are a result of the system he ran in where he would either shoot the ball or pass the ball on every single possession.

How many tripple doubles is he posting now that he is playing along side Wade and Bosh? Not nearly as many as he did in the Cavs system. Who gives a crap about tripple doubles anyways. I'll take the guy who can get the job done in crunch time and can deliver championships. Offensively Kobe is better, and defensively Kobe is better. Therefore Kobe is better individually. Add that to his five rings and Lebrons zero and this isn't even up for debate anymore.

u forgot that lebron shoots close to 50% every year and actually shot %50 last year where as kobe has never even come close to shooting %50

aces01
02-05-2011, 11:17 PM
There are some isolated cases that you can make that prove the player with no rings is better that the one with rings.

That has no bearing when comparing Kobe and Lebron. Kobe has FIVE MORE RINGS. thats a hell of a difference. In his prime, Kobe dropped 81 points and 62 in three quarters. He is considered a top three offensive player of all time and has made 7 all NBA first defensive teams and 3 second teams.

His scoring prowess in his prime is leaps and bounds better than Lebrons and his defensive legacy is a joke to compare to Lebrons. All Lebron has over Kobe is assists and rebounds. Big ****ing deal. Those stats are a result of the system he ran in where he would either shoot the ball or pass the ball on every single possession.

How many tripple doubles is he posting now that he is playing along side Wade and Bosh? Not nearly as many as he did in the Cavs system. Who gives a crap about tripple doubles anyways. I'll take the guy who can get the job done in crunch time and can deliver championships. Offensively Kobe is better, and defensively Kobe is better. Therefore Kobe is better individually. Add that to his five rings and Lebrons zero and this isn't even up for debate anymore.

You're just going off on rants that aren't even relevant. Believe it or not, this post is not just about Kobe and Lebron. Your first sentence of this post is the only one that matters. You said that there are cases where a player without rings can be better than one with rings.

aces01
02-05-2011, 11:19 PM
The point I'm making is that it is the greatest experts and analysts who consider this. The fact that they consider Kobe better, is good enough for me to say without a doubt Kobe is better that Lebron. Plus I feel is should be fairly obvious to every non hater out there.

You keep referring to experts. The beauty of the forum is that you can actually state your own opinion. Do you think the player with rings is better between two similar players?

amos1er
02-05-2011, 11:21 PM
u forgot that lebron shoots close to 50% every year and actually shot %50 last year where as kobe has never even come close to shooting %50

Kobe has more 3 point attempts....when you factor that in and adjust for 3 point shooting percentage, he shoots just about the same % than Lebron.

http://www.82games.com/Adjusting.htm

knightstemplar
02-05-2011, 11:22 PM
yep

kobe in his prime avergaged 35.4 per game in a season, 4 consecutive 50+ point games, 81 points, 62 in 3 Qs, 9 consecutive 40+ games, ect..

how was lebron better than kobe ever was?

D Roses Bulls
02-05-2011, 11:22 PM
even if you have a good supporting cast, your best player has to step up and lead the team to the title

this

IAmKira
02-05-2011, 11:23 PM
Does ear rings count? :)

cuz lebron has 2 of those and kobe only has 1 or none :(

amos1er
02-05-2011, 11:23 PM
You keep referring to experts. The beauty of the forum is that you can actually state your own opinion. Do you think the player with rings is better between two similar players?

Well, as you said earlier, there are some isolated cases where similar players with more rings are not better than the ones without rings. ie Nash and Billups and Malone and Gasol.

But in most cases, like with Kobe and Lebron and Duncan and Malone I would say without a doubt Kobe and Duncan are the better players.

mrs rose
02-05-2011, 11:24 PM
The point I'm making is that it is the greatest experts and analysts who consider this. The fact that they consider Kobe better, is good enough for me to say without a doubt Kobe is better that Lebron. Plus I feel is should be fairly obvious to every non hater out there.

who are they?
i dont believe in experts and analysts.. because they change with the time.

need an example, they made lebron look like JESUS himself before the decision.
but once he picked miami KEVIN DURANT, AND BLAKE are now the new poster boys for the league and espn.


they did the same thing to AI, and KOBE.. think about the promotion before the rape trial for kobe, eventhough he has won some titles he still isnt the guy he once was according to the experts and analysts.

another example if you look at the numbers dwyane wade should have an MVP.
SO should chris paul, and even the years of the dark kobe by the numbers he should have gotten it but they gave it to then STEVE NASH, OR dirk.


they have to pick an angle to promote and go for there. its VERY bias, so if you going by that i NOW can understand your stands..

Its the experts and analysts!

amos1er
02-05-2011, 11:24 PM
kobe in his prime avergaged 35.4 per game in a season, 4 consecutive 50+ point games, 81 points, 62 in 3 Qs, 9 consecutive 40+ games, ect..

how was lebron better than kobe ever was?

:clap:

Sadds The Gr8
02-05-2011, 11:24 PM
Gasol was the second best on his team for both rings

Billups was a one hit wonder and was the best player on his team, but not by much. That was a fluke and was more due to the Lakers folding more than the Pistons being the better team that year.

Parker was either the second or third best player on his team for all his rings. Don't let his finals MVP fool you, he was still the second best player in 2007.

Kobe was clearly the best player on his team for two of his rings, and was pretty much an equal contributor for the 01 and 02 championships.

Kobe is clearly a top ten player in NBA history according to many experts. Billups, Parker, and Gasol are all good players and will probably make the Hall of Fame, but are nowhere near in Kobe's league. Not the best comparison.
so Stockton wasn't a 2nd option too like Parker was?

Nash wasn't a second scoring option too like Billups was? Kidd was never a first option on offense...your points are moot.

I think you only think your logic only works in terms of Kobe & Lebron, looking at your posts and sig...

amos1er
02-05-2011, 11:25 PM
who are they?
i dont believe in experts and analysts.. because they change with the time.

need an example, they made lebron look like JESUS himself before the decision.
but once he picked miami KEVIN DURANT, AND BLAKE are now the new poster boys for the league and espn.


they did the same thing to AI, and KOBE.. think about the promotion before the rape trial for kobe, eventhough he has won some titles he still isnt the guy he once was according to the experts and analysts.

another example if you look at the numbers dwyane wade should have an MVP.
SO should chris paul, and even the years of the dark kobe by the numbers he should have gotten it but they gave it to then STEVE NASH, OR dirk.


they have to pick an angle to promote and go for there. its VERY bias, so if you going by that i NOW can understand your stands..

Its the experts and analysts!

Here is a good one for you:

http://theshoegame.com/articles/michael-jordan-kobe-is-better-than-lebron.html

Lim
02-05-2011, 11:26 PM
kobe in his prime avergaged 35.4 per game in a season, 4 consecutive 50+ point games, 81 points, 62 in 3 Qs, 9 consecutive 40+ games, ect..

how was lebron better than kobe ever was?

thats one season on a really bad team. nba careers are a marathon not a sprint, compare the stats of both players from those links i posted. stats dont lie

D Roses Bulls
02-05-2011, 11:26 PM
kobe in his prime avergaged 35.4 per game in a season, 4 consecutive 50+ point games, 81 points, 62 in 3 Qs, 9 consecutive 40+ games, ect..

how was lebron better than kobe ever was?

yeah lebron was NEVER better then Kobe was.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 11:28 PM
who are they?
i dont believe in experts and analysts.. because they change with the time.

need an example, they made lebron look like JESUS himself before the decision.
but once he picked miami KEVIN DURANT, AND BLAKE are now the new poster boys for the league and espn.


they did the same thing to AI, and KOBE.. think about the promotion before the rape trial for kobe, eventhough he has won some titles he still isnt the guy he once was according to the experts and analysts.

another example if you look at the numbers dwyane wade should have an MVP.
SO should chris paul, and even the years of the dark kobe by the numbers he should have gotten it but they gave it to then STEVE NASH, OR dirk.


they have to pick an angle to promote and go for there. its VERY bias, so if you going by that i NOW can understand your stands..

Its the experts and analysts!

Here is another:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=120300

IAmKira
02-05-2011, 11:29 PM
thats one season on a really bad team. nba careers are a marathon not a sprint, compare the stats of both players from those links i posted. stats dont lie

michael jordan dont lie:cool:

mrs rose
02-05-2011, 11:29 PM
Here is a good one for you:

http://theshoegame.com/articles/michael-jordan-kobe-is-better-than-lebron.html

ok,
he also picked k BROWN number in the draft..
not all things that jordan does is great!
hence what he did to his now ex WIFE, who is the richest ex wife of all time..
i know thats off topic but the point is, thats why i dont agree in the (expert) thing.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 11:30 PM
who are they?
i dont believe in experts and analysts.. because they change with the time.

need an example, they made lebron look like JESUS himself before the decision.
but once he picked miami KEVIN DURANT, AND BLAKE are now the new poster boys for the league and espn.


they did the same thing to AI, and KOBE.. think about the promotion before the rape trial for kobe, eventhough he has won some titles he still isnt the guy he once was according to the experts and analysts.

another example if you look at the numbers dwyane wade should have an MVP.
SO should chris paul, and even the years of the dark kobe by the numbers he should have gotten it but they gave it to then STEVE NASH, OR dirk.


they have to pick an angle to promote and go for there. its VERY bias, so if you going by that i NOW can understand your stands..

Its the experts and analysts!

Here is yet another:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/jack_mccallum/05/28/kobe/index.html

mrs rose
02-05-2011, 11:32 PM
Here is another:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=120300

again.. espn is your source..
and SHAQ really?
he is the same guy who said DWYANE WADE was the best player on the planet after they won in 06.

very emotional dude.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 11:33 PM
ok,
he also picked k BROWN number in the draft..
not all things that jordan does is great!
hence what he did to his now ex WIFE, who is the richest ex wife of all time..
i know thats off topic but the point is, thats why i dont agree in the (expert) thing.

Well then, to quote the great Robert Horry....You gotta pick up a newspaper son.

IAmKira
02-05-2011, 11:34 PM
why r people so serious? We argue about this everyday...

Geargo Wallace
02-05-2011, 11:35 PM
Does ear rings count? :)

cuz lebron has 2 of those and kobe only has 1 or none :(

Are you referring to MVP`s when you say earrings?

amos1er
02-05-2011, 11:35 PM
Kobe Bryant is a much better offensive player than Lebron. Lebron never scored 81 points in one game. Or 225 points in just 4 games. 65, 50, 60, and 50.

Including games of:

30 points in one quarter.

62 points in 3 quarters.

55 points in 2 quarters.

9 straight 40+ point games

In 2005-2006 he scored 62 points in only 3 quarters. At the end of 3 quarters. Kobe Bryant had single handedly outscored the opposing Dallas Mavericks 62 to 61.

mrs rose
02-05-2011, 11:36 PM
Here is yet another:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/jack_mccallum/05/28/kobe/index.html

Jack McCallum<--- you dont even know who he is..
i can bet money on that, without going to wikipedi.
the fact remains you go off OTHERS points of view, i research it myself.
and use all material and come to my OWN unbias point of view.

in short you do it the espn way..
i do it my own, i think the stats of similar players should be a factor, also weigh in the supporting cast, and also the leadership of that person.


and i read the espn articles as well, and watch it on tv..
but then i watch the games and make my own DECISION..

knightstemplar
02-05-2011, 11:36 PM
thats one season on a really bad team. nba careers are a marathon not a sprint, compare the stats of both players from those links i posted. stats dont lie

lebrons 7 years were on bad teams, thats why his stats were stacked

D Roses Bulls
02-05-2011, 11:37 PM
ok,
he also picked k BROWN number in the draft..
not all things that jordan does is great!
hence what he did to his now ex WIFE, who is the richest ex wife of all time..
i know thats off topic but the point is, thats why i dont agree in the (expert) thing.


again.. espn is your source..
and SHAQ really?
he is the same guy who said DWYANE WADE was the best player on the planet after they won in 06.

very emotional dude.

stating michael's ex wife is playing off emotion and wade was probably the best player in the world after 2006 and some people still think he is the best player in the NBA.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 11:38 PM
Jack McCallum<--- you dont even know who he is..
i can bet money on that, without going to wikipedi.
the fact remains you go off OTHERS points of view, i research it myself.
and use all material and come to my OWN unbias point of view.

in short you do it the espn way..
i do it my own, i think the stats of similar players should be a factor, also weigh in the supporting cast, and also the leadership of that person.


and i read the espn articles as well, and watch it on tv..
but then i watch the games and make my own DECISION..

Edit: Got you confused with another hater.

D Roses Bulls
02-05-2011, 11:40 PM
Well, obviously your decisions aren't that good because you don't think that the best pg of all time was either Magic Johnson or Oscar Robertson. :facepalm:

who did she say was the best pag? because it was down to those two. I'd say
1.johnson
2.robertson
3.stockton

IAmKira
02-05-2011, 11:41 PM
Are you referring to MVP`s when you say earrings?

no i meant EAR RINGS. LITERALLY. 2 EARS?

knightstemplar
02-05-2011, 11:42 PM
so jordans 6 rings dont matter?

amos1er
02-05-2011, 11:42 PM
Jack McCallum<--- you dont even know who he is..
i can bet money on that, without going to wikipedi.
the fact remains you go off OTHERS points of view, i research it myself.
and use all material and come to my OWN unbias point of view.

in short you do it the espn way..
i do it my own, i think the stats of similar players should be a factor, also weigh in the supporting cast, and also the leadership of that person.


and i read the espn articles as well, and watch it on tv..
but then i watch the games and make my own DECISION..

I have made my own decision....it just so happens that my decision is the same as some of the greatest NBA experts in the world. :D

Gritz
02-05-2011, 11:42 PM
Championships imo should only be recognized and glorified the way they are in the media today if if its an individual championship. For example I ran track track throughout high school and college, and whenever my relay team would come in first place at a "medal meet" everybody on the team would make a big deal about winning it when I could carelesss I wanted the glory of winning by myself and losing by myself(Just because the only person you can blame is yourself, as you truly are the best or not so best lol)

Now I played football and basketball in high school and never once did we even come close to a state cg ampionship, I cant help that the supporting cast sucks or the play callling is horrible an d I think its the same way in professional sports, if player A gets drafted to a big market/media team with a good sport tradition and player B gets drafted to the Alaska eskimos, I think its only obvious who will have the most rings at the end of their prospective careers, and their career was kind of predetermined for them technically before being labeled a professional

mrs rose
02-05-2011, 11:42 PM
stating michael's ex wife is playing off emotion and wade was probably the best player in the world after 2006 and some people still think he is the best player in the NBA.

I KNOW that was a cheap shot but it is true.
some people think mj is god, that he doesnt make mistakes when in fact he is human, just like when he made the mistake to draft kwame brown #1
when u have pau gasol nba champion, joe johnson, tony parker, and many others in that class.
MJ HAS MADE MISTAKES, and dont think for one sec he doesnt have beef with the lbj nike/jumpman..

taking shots at lbj, just lbj took shots on him on the what should i do commericial.

everyone makes mistakes, and just because mj says something basketball relate doesnt make it true, if thats the case the c bobcats should be nba champions right?

amos1er
02-05-2011, 11:43 PM
who did she say was the best pag? because it was down to those two. I'd say
1.johnson
2.robertson
3.stockton

Ya, I edited that.....I think it was Lim who said that it wasn't Johnson or Roberston.

mrs rose
02-05-2011, 11:44 PM
stating michael's ex wife is playing off emotion and wade was probably the best player in the world after 2006 and some people still think he is the best player in the NBA.

^ i agree..
i love wade trust, but i made that statement to prove how SHAQ turns the tide.
i remember him stating kobe was the biw, then wade, then lebron, then back to kobe..

Lim
02-05-2011, 11:44 PM
lebrons 7 years were on bad teams, thats why his stats were stacked

the year kobe avged 35 they were not contenders, not in the slightest. and the cavs were contenders every year how is that a bad team? and his stats are still stacked even though hes playing with 2 other all stars

amos1er
02-05-2011, 11:45 PM
I KNOW that was a cheap shot but it is true.
some people think mj is god, that he doesnt make mistakes when in fact he is human, just like when he made the mistake to draft kwame brown #1
when u have pau gasol nba champion, joe johnson, tony parker, and many others in that class.
MJ HAS MADE MISTAKES, and dont think for one sec he doesnt have beef with the lbj nike/jumpman..

taking shots at lbj, just lbj took shots on him on the what should i do commericial.

everyone makes mistakes, and just because mj says something basketball relate doesnt make it true, if thats the case the c bobcats should be nba champions right?

Well, pretty much every other credible expert thinks Kobe is better, except for John Hollinger.

mrs rose
02-05-2011, 11:45 PM
I have made my own decision....it just so happens that my decision is the same as some of the greatest NBA experts in the world. :D

says you, and espn.

but i care to think outside of the tv box.
and actual have my own VIEW point.. unbias VIEW POINT

D Roses Bulls
02-05-2011, 11:46 PM
I KNOW that was a cheap shot but it is true.
some people think mj is god, that he doesnt make mistakes when in fact he is human, just like when he made the mistake to draft kwame brown #1
when u have pau gasol nba champion, joe johnson, tony parker, and many others in that class.
MJ HAS MADE MISTAKES, and dont think for one sec he doesnt have beef with the lbj nike/jumpman..

taking shots at lbj, just lbj took shots on him on the what should i do commericial.

everyone makes mistakes, and just because mj says something basketball relate doesnt make it true, if thats the case the c bobcats should be nba champions right?

but the thing is, michael had respect for the game, michael was never on the side line dancing when he was blowing teams or or taunting them. yeah, he talked trash which everyone does, but he respected the game. he never took off games and always played his hardest and no matter how much he was down, he never quit.

amos1er
02-05-2011, 11:47 PM
[/B]

says you, and espn.

but i care to think outside of the tv box.
and actual have my own VIEW point.. unbias VIEW POINT

So do I and it happens to be that Kobe is leaps and bounds above Lebron.

Kobe is the better offensive player.

Kobe is the better defensive player.

Kobe is the better crunch time player.

Most importantly, Kobe is the proven winner time and time again.

mrs rose
02-05-2011, 11:47 PM
Well, pretty much every other credible expert thinks Kobe is better, except for John Hollinger.

AND..
so what, i mean so you are with the majority; you never make a decision for yourself?

or do you have to ask experts to form an opionon.

im sure you go to the bathroom without asking your experts, you make that decision for yourself, or maybe you dont..
i have no idea..

hgtiger32
02-05-2011, 11:48 PM
i dont wanna get in this argument. all that ill say is that if you switch LeBron in place of Kobe when he played with Shaq and now Pau, they would have the same # of rings, if not more. plus LeBron never had any problems with another teammate and he never asked for a trade. he asked for help to make the team better, unlike the Black Mamba

D Roses Bulls
02-05-2011, 11:49 PM
^ i agree..
i love wade trust, but i made that statement to prove how SHAQ turns the tide.
i remember him stating kobe was the biw, then wade, then lebron, then back to kobe..

yeah well shaq is an idiot. he said when he joined the suns that it was the most talented team he had ever been on. besides, anyone who dates hoopz isn't goin to be taken seriously

mrs rose
02-05-2011, 11:54 PM
but the thing is, michael had respect for the game, michael was never on the side line dancing when he was blowing teams or or taunting them. yeah, he talked trash which everyone does, but he respected the game. he never took off games and always played his hardest and no matter how much he was down, he never quit.

whoa,
see its the personal thing again...
i get it..
because we cant be talking unbiasly here.

because i remember MJ RETIRED NOT ONCE BUT TWICE... and those years he was gone the bulls didnt win it all.

isnt that selfish, one he took a break to play BASEBALL, and i cant remember the other reason he took off.. Yes he didnt take off games but he took off SEASONS and thats plural because it happened more than once.


And every player is different some are more entertaining than others.

Ive seen celebrating dances done, and had no problem with it.

When you play street ball (if) you played street ball.
trash talking, and doing celebrations is not unlawfull

take the eddie house being fined:facepalm:
within the same week kg punches/slap a man in the lower region. then pushes a nba official the following week.
no fined
nothing..
thats why i say its bias, and media oriented.

and people who just watch espn, and dont have a strong self values will side with them instead of doing their own research...

and that doesnt take that much time, just watch the game unbiasly...

michael811
02-05-2011, 11:55 PM
I am going to get away from the Kobe lebron argument and talk about this another way. Just look at Jeter vs Alomar they have very similar stats but If I have a choice I am taking Jeter because the guy comes up big when it matters the most and thats a big part of being a great player

amos1er
02-05-2011, 11:57 PM
i dont wanna get in this argument. all that ill say is that if you switch LeBron in place of Kobe when he played with Shaq and now Pau, they would have the same # of rings, if not more. plus LeBron never had any problems with another teammate and he never asked for a trade. he asked for help to make the team better, unlike the Black Mamba

No, Lebron will just ditch his team and announce it on a live television media circus. lol

Never had any problems with teammates you say....ehem ehem Delonte West banging his mom is not a problem. hahahahahaha

I love how you homers always bring up the how if Lebron switch places with Kobe crap. Read earlier on in the thead where I already proved that lame theory wrong. Basically, Lebron would take years to learn the triangle and by the time he did Gasol and Odom and the rest of the supporting cast would be too old to contend anymore. Lebron isn't just going to magically learn one of the most complicated offensive systems overnight.

Besides, you can say all the would of could of and should of scenarios all you want, but the fact will always be that Kobe has 5 rings and Lebron has zero.

Even if Queen Lebronze James manages to win one in Miami, his legacy will always be tainted that he had to team up with Wade and Bosh to do it.

As Jordan said, he would have never teamed up with Bird and Magic...he was trying to beat those guys.

D Roses Bulls
02-06-2011, 12:02 AM
whoa,
see its the personal thing again...
i get it..
because we cant be talking unbiasly here.

because i remember MJ RETIRED NOT ONCE BUT TWICE... and those years he was gone the bulls didnt win it all.

isnt that selfish, one he took a break to play BASEBALL, and i cant remember the other reason he took off.. Yes he didnt take off games but he took off SEASONS and thats plural because it happened more than once.


And every player is different some are more entertaining than others.

Ive seen celebrating dances done, and had no problem with it.

When you play street ball (if) you played street ball.
trash talking, and doing celebrations is not unlawfull

take the eddie house being fined:facepalm:
within the same week kg punches/slap a man in the lower region. then pushes a nba official the following week.
no fined
nothing..
thats why i say its bias, and media oriented.

and people who just watch espn, and dont have a strong self values will side with them instead of doing their own research...

and that doesnt take that much time, just watch the game unbiasly...

wait wait wait...... the first time he retired, you do know his father was just murdered who he was closer to then anyone. now, I dont know about you, but after something like that most people go through a transitional stage. I think it was more finding himself then him being selfish. the second time, phil jackson wasn't coming back, jackson wanted to retire and with that and jordan already pushing 36 at the time, and I think he was just tired.

I'm not defending the person jordan was off the court cause honestly, I wouldn't know, but on the court, he was the ultimate competitor and even pat riley will say, he has never seen anyone work harder to be better then jordan.

aces01
02-06-2011, 12:02 AM
No, Lebron will just ditch his team and announce it on a live television media circus. lol

Never had any problems with teammates you say....ehem ehem Delonte West banging his mom is not a problem. hahahahahaha

I love how you homers always bring up the how if Lebron switch places with Kobe crap. Read earlier on in the thead where I already proved that lame theory wrong. Basically, Lebron would take years to learn the triangle and by the time he did Gasol and Odom and the rest of the supporting cast would be too old to contend anymore. Lebron isn't just going to magically learn one of the most complicated offensive systems overnight.

Besides, you can say all the would of could of and should of scenarios all you want, but the fact will always be that Kobe has 5 rings and Lebron has zero.

Even if Queen Lebronze James manages to win one in Miami, his legacy will always be tainted that he had to team up with Wade and Bosh to do it.

As Jordan said, he would have never teamed up with Bird and Magic...he was trying to beat those guys.

For you to say that you proved that lame theory wrong is absolutely ridiculous. You actually sounded uncertain when I asked you that question earlier so you're completely going against what you said.

This is what you said earlier..

"I already told you, its really hard to say as the Lakers run the triangle and by the time Lebron learned the triangle, Pau and Lamar would be too old for the Lakers to be in contention anymore.

Now if you put Kobe on the Cavs, I don't think they have a great shot at winning it all either.

With all that said, if I were a GM, I would take the player with proven winning experience."


P.S. If you're not Skip Bayless, I'd be shocked.

mrs rose
02-06-2011, 12:08 AM
wait wait wait...... the first time he retired, you do know his father was just murdered who he was closer to then anyone. now, I dont know about you, but after something like that most people go through a transitional stage. I think it was more finding himself then him being selfish. the second time, phil jackson wasn't coming back, jackson wanted to retire and with that and jordan already pushing 36 at the time, and I think he was just tired.

I'm not defending the person jordan was off the court cause honestly, I wouldn't know, but on the court, he was the ultimate competitor and even pat riley will say, he has never seen anyone work harder to be better then jordan.


Michael Jordan retired in 1993 shortly after his father was murdered by some teens. It meant a lot to him for his father to have seen his last game. He then played baseball for the Birmingham Barons, where he wore number 45. He returned to the NBA in March 1995. He used his baseball number 45 at first, but during the playoffs he switched back to his number 23. Jordan Retired again in 1999. Jordan returned with the Washington Wizards just over a year later, and then retired for the (presumably) final time in 2003.




Conspiracy Theory
There are some who believe that Jordan's initial retirement was an under-the-counter one-year suspension by NBA Commissioner David Stern because of the well-publicized gambling Jordan was taking part in, and the suspicion that the murder of Jordan's father may have been gambling-related

D Roses Bulls
02-06-2011, 12:14 AM
Michael Jordan retired in 1993 shortly after his father was murdered by some teens. It meant a lot to him for his father to have seen his last game. He then played baseball for the Birmingham Barons, where he wore number 45. He returned to the NBA in March 1995. He used his baseball number 45 at first, but during the playoffs he switched back to his number 23. Jordan Retired again in 1999. Jordan returned with the Washington Wizards just over a year later, and then retired for the (presumably) final time in 2003.




Conspiracy Theory
There are some who believe that Jordan's initial retirement was an under-the-counter one-year suspension by NBA Commissioner David Stern because of the well-publicized gambling Jordan was taking part in, and the suspicion that the murder of Jordan's father may have been gambling-related

trust me, I am a huge Jordan fan, I practically know everything about that guy. I know when all he retired. actually that conspiracy theory could be more true then people think, I doubt the suspension was, but the people that were accused of the murder were actually acquitted of it I believe not long ago.

by the way, love the avatar, sanaa is my dream girl

Raps08-09 Champ
02-06-2011, 12:16 AM
We'd need more than stats.

It depends on how they played and how important they are to get that title.

But most of the time, it is just that they are considered better.

LongWayFromHome
02-06-2011, 12:19 AM
Here is a perfect example for this question.

Vince Carter / Paul Pierce
- Came into the league exact same time
- same position
- same frame
- eerily similar stats Carter - 22.5pts/5.3reb/4.1ast/1.2stl/.7blk/446-376-798%
Pierce - 22.3pts/6.1reb/3.8ast/1.5stl/.6blk/447-371-803%
- Playoff stats Carter - 23/6/4 Pierce - 21/6/4.... Pierce twice as many gms
- highest scoring game Carter - 51(twice) Pierce - 50

There is no question amongst the league that pierce has been the better player. He's a MUCH better defender (doesn't show up on "stats", though dRAT and dWINS are of some value). Ultimately his team wins and he is a big reason why. If you replace him with Carter they don't beat the Lakers in 08. But I do think its more about overall winning (anyone can hitch a ride on one championship team).

mrs rose
02-06-2011, 12:24 AM
trust me, I am a huge Jordan fan, I practically everything about that guy. I know when all he retired. actually that conspiracy theory could be more true then people think, I doubt the suspension was, but the people that were accused of the murder were actually acquitted of it I believe not long ago.

lol.
trust me when all the heat fans know im not that high on james.
im a dwyane wade fan all day everyday.
but right is right.. and wrong and is wrong.
yes i can see the ego, on jul 7 2010 when i heard the decision i was like seriously wow.. either way this goes he could do it another way.

then i saw the backlash.. really cleveland? really espn? really chicago? really nyc.

whats funny is miami didnt hang posters beggin him to come.
we just wanted wade to sign, and after we got that everything else was a plus.

but to go from loving everything he does.. to hating everything he is does is crazy..

BOTH OF THEM THE LOVE IN THE HATE..

i can really tell who just FOLLOWS others and the people who actually make a strong debate.

no i dont think lbj is better than mj, i dont think he is better than wade neither.


but i will never deny the fact he is a great player.

thing is.. the rings dont define why he isnt better than those players i mentioned.

its that experience that mj had in COLLEGE, and wade as well.

to take OVER GAMES.. WADE IN THE FINALS OF 06... MJ is career!

kobe to me is great, only problem i have with him is HE DIDNT DO IT ALONE.
BUT SOMETIMES HE COMES OFF LIKE HE DID.

THE WAY HE TREATED SHAQ (WHO WAS THE BETTER PLAYER AT THE TIME THAN HIM AND HELPED HIM GET THE 3)

AND NOW HIS CALLIN OUT GASOL S/N: if gasol not on those teams lakers dont go back to back..

need proof see the years before gasol, and watch game 7 in the finals last year gasol, and artest hit clutch shots while kobe shot 6-24. something of that nature.

everyone NEEDS help, its a team sport~ and i cant get sold on kobe because he comes off like its just HIM on the court.

especially the years when he was still UNDER contract demanding to be traded.

i dont care how you sugarcoat that, but that was wrong to the team and the players on the team. BOTTOMLINE, I didnt need espn to tell me that

D Roses Bulls
02-06-2011, 12:28 AM
lol.
trust me when all the heat fans know im not that high on james.
im a dwyane wade fan all day everyday.
but right is right.. and wrong and is wrong.
yes i can see the ego, on jul 7 2010 when i heard the decision i was like seriously wow.. either way this goes he could do it another way.

then i saw the backlash.. really cleveland? really espn? really chicago? really nyc.

whats funny is miami didnt hang posters beggin him to come.
we just wanted wade to sign, and after we got that everything else was a plus.

but to go from loving everything he does.. to hating everything he is does is crazy..

BOTH OF THEM THE LOVE IN THE HATE..

i can really tell who just FOLLOWS others and the people who actually make a strong debate.

no i dont think lbj is better than mj, i dont think he is better than wade neither.


but i will never deny the fact he is a great player.

thing is.. the rings dont define why he isnt better than those players i mentioned.

its that experience that mj had in COLLEGE, and wade as well.

to take OVER GAMES.. WADE IN THE FINALS OF 06... MJ is career!

kobe to me is great, only problem i have with him is HE DIDNT DO IT ALONE.
BUT SOMETIMES HE COMES OFF LIKE HE DID.

THE WAY HE TREATED SHAQ (WHO WAS THE BETTER PLAYER AT THE TIME THAN HIM AND HELPED HIM GET THE 3)

AND NOW HIS CALLIN OUT GASOL S/N: if gasol not on those teams lakers dont go back to back..

need proof see the years before gasol, and watch game 7 in the finals last year gasol, and artest hit clutch shots while kobe shot 6-24. something of that nature.

everyone NEEDS help, its a team sport~ and i cant get sold on kobe because he comes off like its just HIM on the court.

especially the years when he was still UNDER contract demanding to be traded.

i dont care how you sugarcoat that, but that was wrong to the team and the players on the team. BOTTOMLINE, I didnt need espn to tell me that

I'm not fan of lebron or kobe...... I am a big wade fan and I still believe he is better then both of them. still though you cant compare what lebron did to what jordan did. personal lives are personal lives, i care more about what they did while they were playing. the fact is jordan had respect for the game, I don't think lebron has respect for the game and I dont get the whole player feuding either and don't even bring up ESPN with me, I think they are the biggest joke of a sports network there is. they have seriously turned into the sports version of tmz.

kjoke
02-06-2011, 12:31 AM
I'm not fan of lebron or kobe...... I am a big wade fan and I still believe he is better then both of them. still though you cant compare what lebron did to what jordan did. personal lives are personal lives, i care more about what they did while they were playing. the fact is jordan had respect for the game, I don't think lebron has respect for the game and I dont get the whole playing feuding either and don;t even bring up ESPN with me, I think they are the biggest joke of a sports network there is. they have seriously turned into tmz.

i dont know how you can say jordan had 'respect' for the game, any player who thinks he is above the game clearly doesnt respect it. You adding in that your a wade fan does not change anything, so i dont get why you always do that when arguing.

D Roses Bulls
02-06-2011, 12:34 AM
i dont know how you can say jordan had 'respect' for the game, any player who thinks he is above the game clearly doesnt respect it. You adding in that your a wade fan does not change anything, so i dont get why you always do that when arguing.

jordan didnt think he was above the game, people made him above the game and me being a wade fan has to do with the fact that I dont believe lebron is better then him and I believe wade plays the game the right way. come on KJoke, get with it. :)

kjoke
02-06-2011, 12:35 AM
jordan didnt think he was above the game, people made him above the game and me being a wade fan has to do with the fact that I dont believe lebron is better then him and I believe wade plays the game the right way. come on KJoke, get with it. :)

explain your definition of "respect or the game" and "plays the right way" and i will glady show a counter in which jordan did the same

D Roses Bulls
02-06-2011, 12:40 AM
explain your definition of "respect or the game" and "plays the right way" and i will glady show a counter in which jordan did the same

well for one, jordan always shook hands, win or lose. jordan never quit on his teammates like lebron did (game 5). jordan didnt dance on the sidelines while blowing out another team. jordan didnt need a tv special to announce where he was going. jordan knew people paid to see him play and unless something was broken or management wouldn't let him play, always played in games on the road knowing fans paid to see him and only got one chance to see him once that year. YES, I thought lebron pussied out and didnt play in chicago when he could of.

mrs rose
02-06-2011, 12:45 AM
well for one, jordan always shook hands, win or lose. jordan never quit on his teammates like lebron did (game 5). jordan didnt dance on the sidelines while blowing out another team. jordan didnt need a tv special to announce where he was going. jordan knew people paid to see him play and unless something was broken or management wouldn't let him play, always played in games on the road knowing fans paid to see him and only got one chance to see him once that year. YES, I thought lebron pussied out and didnt play in chicago when he could of.

so the bottomline is this what i placed in BOLD..
HE didnt come to your team so now he is awful, but if he came to your team the decision and everything else wouldnt have mattered right?
:facepalm:

also jordan did quit, you said it yourself the retirement is a form of quitting.
note the years he left the bulls didnt win it all.
houston x2

but this about rings.. does it matter?
i still stick with no.

SteBO
02-06-2011, 12:49 AM
lol.
trust me when all the heat fans know im not that high on james.
im a dwyane wade fan all day everyday.
but right is right.. and wrong and is wrong.
yes i can see the ego, on jul 7 2010 when i heard the decision i was like seriously wow.. either way this goes he could do it another way.

then i saw the backlash.. really cleveland? really espn? really chicago? really nyc.

whats funny is miami didnt hang posters beggin him to come.
we just wanted wade to sign, and after we got that everything else was a plus.

but to go from loving everything he does.. to hating everything he is does is crazy..

BOTH OF THEM THE LOVE IN THE HATE..

i can really tell who just FOLLOWS others and the people who actually make a strong debate.

no i dont think lbj is better than mj, i dont think he is better than wade neither.


but i will never deny the fact he is a great player.

thing is.. the rings dont define why he isnt better than those players i mentioned.

its that experience that mj had in COLLEGE, and wade as well.

to take OVER GAMES.. WADE IN THE FINALS OF 06... MJ is career!

kobe to me is great, only problem i have with him is HE DIDNT DO IT ALONE.
BUT SOMETIMES HE COMES OFF LIKE HE DID.

THE WAY HE TREATED SHAQ (WHO WAS THE BETTER PLAYER AT THE TIME THAN HIM AND HELPED HIM GET THE 3)

AND NOW HIS CALLIN OUT GASOL S/N: if gasol not on those teams lakers dont go back to back..

need proof see the years before gasol, and watch game 7 in the finals last year gasol, and artest hit clutch shots while kobe shot 6-24. something of that nature.

everyone NEEDS help, its a team sport~ and i cant get sold on kobe because he comes off like its just HIM on the court.

especially the years when he was still UNDER contract demanding to be traded.

i dont care how you sugarcoat that, but that was wrong to the team and the players on the team. BOTTOMLINE, I didnt need espn to tell me that
Hm. Very well put by you, mrs rose. However, I think D Roses was saying that the most important thing, at least for now since I'm tired of all the off court BS, is that MJ took the game very seriously when he was playing. In essence, it rubbed off on his teammates, leading to championships. For as great a player LeBron is, he acted like a clown in CLE on a lot of occasions and he ended up not winning anything. I've ripped Kobe and MJ even, for being stubborn on the court and separating themselves from the rest. But in the end, those two have a combined 11 rings, and they did it without dancing and prancing on the sidelines. LeBron's a different story

Do you remember when the Heat were 9-8 and Spo was on the hot seat?, and this touches to D Roses point about ESPN. The report that came out via Chris Broussard saying that Spo was actually hard on LeBron during practices, and players were growing frustrated with Spo because he wasn't letting the players be themselves. ESPN blew this up as Spos' last days as head coach. Why? They want to sell to fans that Pat's coming back to the helm, trying to discredit Spo. It's all the same crap that pisses me off to no end. This was after the entire FA bonanza when reporters, at least in my eyes, lost all credability. What made this worse was, our Heat fanbase, and check the heat threads in our forum for evidence, was crappin on Spo too. I wasn't a PSD member at the time, but I read the posts. Spo wasn't the problem there, LeBron was, because he wasn't allowed to freelance and do what he wanted to do constantly. ESPN, of course, never saw it that way, because they found it very easy to default to "the coach is the problem". It's ridiculous and I hope Spo succeeds, so this blame the coach nonsense would end. I'm done.

rickshaw
02-06-2011, 12:53 AM
So do I and it happens to be that Kobe is leaps and bounds above Lebron.

Kobe is the better offensive player.

Kobe is the better defensive player.

Kobe is the better crunch time player.

Most importantly, Kobe is the proven winner time and time again.

nickdymez other account

kjoke
02-06-2011, 12:55 AM
well for one, jordan always shook hands, win or lose. jordan never quit on his teammates like lebron did (game 5). jordan didnt dance on the sidelines while blowing out another team. jordan didnt need a tv special to announce where he was going. jordan knew people paid to see him play and unless something was broken or management wouldn't let him play, always played in games on the road knowing fans paid to see him and only got one chance to see him once that year. YES, I thought lebron pussied out and didnt play in chicago when he could of.

1. jordan had a hour speech on how great he was
2. lebron never had issues with cavs management
3. if you would have stayed in college rather than go get millions in the nba theres something wring with you
4. he might have not made a tv special but he did retire, then come back, then retire, then comeback, then retire pure arrogance and thinking we was better than the game
5. lebron doesnt know people pay to see him i guess
6. there is more but ill stop

mrs rose
02-06-2011, 12:58 AM
Hm. Very well put by you, mrs rose. However, I think D Roses was saying that the most important thing, at least for now since I'm tired of all the off court BS, is that MJ took the game very seriously when he was playing. In essence, it rubbed off on his teammates, leading to championships. For as great a player LeBron is, he acted like a clown in CLE on a lot of occasions and he ended up not winning anything. I've ripped Kobe and MJ even, for being stubborn on the court and separating themselves from the rest. But in the end, those two have a combined 11 rings, and they did it without dancing and prancing on the sidelines. LeBron's a different story

Do you remember when the Heat were 9-8 and Spo was on the hot seat?, and this touches to D Roses point about ESPN. The report that came out via Chris Broussard saying that Spo was actually hard on LeBron during practices, and players were growing frustrated with Spo because he wasn't letting the players be themselves. ESPN blew this up as Spos' last days as head coach. Why? They want to sell to fans that Pat's coming back to the helm, trying to discredit Spo. It's all the same crap that pisses me off to no end. This was after the entire FA bonanza when reporters, at least in my eyes, lost all credability. What made this worse was, our Heat fanbase, and check the heat threads in our forum for evidence, was crappin on Spo too. I wasn't a PSD member at the time, but I read the posts. Spo wasn't the problem there, LeBron was, because he wasn't allowed to freelance and do what he wanted to do constantly. ESPN, of course, never saw it that way, because they found it very easy to default to "the coach is the problem". It's ridiculous and I hope Spo succeeds, so this blame the coach nonsense would end. I'm done.

we all know chris is a lebron fan,
but the thing most fans of the heat wasnt sure of spo not because of the work ethic at practice.
but the iso and nothing else on offense, or the rotation searching he still does.
but thats normal its a new team, miami fans and the league all wanted to see what this team can do.
and the 9-8 start was something to witness, but you have to let the players play into their strengths.

that doesnt mean to lose control of the team neither, and at some point it did look like spo bit off more than he could chew.

but it was growing pains as we can see after them winning what 20 in a row.

but my point is rings dont define greatness.

you can get any rookie lucky enough to be drafted to a championship team doesnt mean that rookie is better than the all star who has been in the league 10 plus years but never had a championship caliber team around him, or they didnt have enough to win it all.

some folks hold this (RING) THING to an measure stick that if you dont have one you arent a good player which is hogwash IMO

SteBO
02-06-2011, 01:01 AM
we all know chris is a lebron fan,
but the thing most fans of the heat wasnt sure of spo not because of the work ethic at practice.
but the iso and nothing else on offense, or the rotation searching he still does.
but thats normal its a new team, miami fans and the league all wanted to see what this team can do.
and the 9-8 start was something to witness, but you have to let the players play into their strengths.

that doesnt mean to lose control of the team neither, and at some point it did look like spo bit off more than he could chew.

but it was growing pains as we can see after them winning what 20 in a row.

but my point is rings dont define greatness.

you can get any rookie lucky enough to be drafted to a championship team doesnt mean that rookie is better than the all star who has been in the league 10 plus years but never had a championship caliber team around him, or they didnt have enough to win it all.

some folks hold this (RING) THING to an measure stick that if you dont have one you arent a good player which is hogwash IMO
Larry Bird and Magic Johnson are perfect examples of players that got fortunate to get drafted to stacked teams. That's why I just :rolleyes: at everyone saying LeBron took the easy way out. I didn't hear anyone else saying that about Magic and Larry, when they never had to deal with what LeBron had to deal with.

Geargo Wallace
02-06-2011, 01:01 AM
yo... times have changed.... zeeeeeeeeeen!

D Roses Bulls
02-06-2011, 01:02 AM
so the bottomline is this what i placed in BOLD..
HE didnt come to your team so now he is awful, but if he came to your team the decision and everything else wouldnt have mattered right?
:facepalm:

also jordan did quit, you said it yourself the retirement is a form of quitting.
note the years he left the bulls didnt win it all.
houston x2

but this about rings.. does it matter?
i still stick with no.

retiring during the off season isn't quitting especially the circumstances of his father. jordan didnt quit DURING GAMES. I was talking about when lebron sat out the bulls heat game a couple weeks ago and lebron not coming to my team is not the reason i dont like him, i have personal reasons i dont like him. lebron wasnt the guy i wanted the most, it was wade i wanted and if you dont believe me, like i tell everyone else, go check my history.

mrs rose
02-06-2011, 01:03 AM
1. jordan had a hour speech on how great he was
2. lebron never had issues with cavs management
3. if you would have stayed in college rather than go get millions in the nba theres something wring with you
4. he might have not made a tv special but he did retire, then come back, then retire, then comeback, then retire pure arrogance and thinking we was better than the game5. lebron doesnt know people pay to see him i guess
6. there is more but ill stop

VERY GOOD POINT..
and he made a current video game about his (greatness) and taking shots at lebron and miami for teaming up..

times have changed.

i remember when he hung in the air, and stuck his tongue out back then certain players didnt like that.
it was showboating, and disrespected the game.

BUT OVER TIME people accepted it, and now he is a hero amongst us.

the game changes, look at the evolution of it.

teaming up in your prime is now the thing, if you dont believe me looks like there is another SUPER TEAM forming in nyc...

well the media embrace this, or bash them just like miami?

D Roses Bulls
02-06-2011, 01:05 AM
1. jordan had a hour speech on how great he was
2. lebron never had issues with cavs management
3. if you would have stayed in college rather than go get millions in the nba theres something wring with you
4. he might have not made a tv special but he did retire, then come back, then retire, then comeback, then retire pure arrogance and thinking we was better than the game
5. lebron doesnt know people pay to see him i guess
6. there is more but ill stop

1.it was jordans hall of fame speech, lmao...... are you kidding me with that one? and he was the greatest of all time, if he wanted to talk for 5 hours he could at his hall of fame ceremony.
2. cavs management kissed lebrons ***......
3. I never said he should of stayed in college :confused:
4. his father died and the second time he retired, he was 36 years old and the bulls team broke up.
5. lebron probably doesnt care people pay to see him or he would of played.
6. there is more but ill stop ;)

CHANGO
02-06-2011, 01:10 AM
Blah Blah Blah BLah Blah....

mrs rose
02-06-2011, 01:11 AM
retiring during the off season isn't quitting especially the circumstances of his father. jordan didnt quit DURING GAMES. I was talking about when lebron sat out the bulls heat game a couple weeks ago and lebron not coming to my team is not the reason i dont like him, i have personal reasons i dont like him. lebron wasnt the guy i wanted the most, it was wade i wanted and if you dont believe me, like i tell everyone else, go check my history.

what?
so quiting for a season and having your team to build without you, is so different... then you come back like ok im here now...
then quit again to play for another team, and the fans cheered thats what got me, but booed lebron.. makes no sense what so ever but maybe its the rings.

you said in an earlier post you were upset that lebron didnt come to the chi, so i only assumed u wanted the super team in the chi but only got boozer..
ok now it makes sense.

but im still trying to keep this on topic, at the end of the day..
lebron wants a championship, but what do you need to have a championship..
you asked?

ill answer that a CHAMPIONSHIP CALIBER TEAM!
and in cleveland it wasnt going to happen.

there are people who stayed out of loyality and all they have is their stats..
i give u.... AI, T MAC, VINCE,JOHN STOCKTON, REGGIE MILLER, J O NEAL,

but some of these guys did move to other teams, but they went when their knees where done, or there prime was gone and came up with nothing.

D Roses Bulls
02-06-2011, 01:20 AM
what?
so quiting for a season and having your team to build without you, is so different... then you come back like ok im here now...
then quit again to play for another team, and the fans cheered thats what got me, but booed lebron.. makes no sense what so ever but maybe its the rings.

you said in an earlier post you were upset that lebron didnt come to the chi, so i only assumed u wanted the super team in the chi but only got boozer..
ok now it makes sense.

but im still trying to keep this on topic, at the end of the day..
lebron wants a championship, but what do you need to have a championship..
you asked?

ill answer that a CHAMPIONSHIP CALIBER TEAM!
and in cleveland it wasnt going to happen.

there are people who stayed out of loyality and all they have is their stats..
i give u.... AI, T MAC, VINCE,JOHN STOCKTON, REGGIE MILLER, J O NEAL,

but some of these guys did move to other teams, but they went when their knees where done, or there prime was gone and came up with nothing.

I'll continue this convo with you later, promise. I am baby sitting for my sister tonight and I have to take care of that.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-06-2011, 01:35 AM
If Lebron wins a ring this year, would you consider him a worse player than he was for the rest of his career because his PER and overall stats are down? Or would you then acknowledge that he did not put up numbers like he could because he did not have to?

Players can get bigger stats when they are the main and only option on offense. So if your going to punish a player for not putting up the same numbers as another while his team was winning championships. You have to acknowledge they may not have put up bigger numbers because they played with more offensive talent. Lebron is proving that this year. For the first time he is playing with great offensive talent, and he is putting up numbers more comparable with Kobe while he played with Shaq and Gasol.

So if Lebron played with this type of talent his entire career, and put up these types of numbers, would you all still put him on this pedestal? Or would you rather over reward a player for putting up big numbers on a team that has no chance at winning a ring?

PrettyBoyJ
02-06-2011, 01:50 AM
Even tho this is really about Kobe & Lebron.. Lets look at other players, for example Karl Malone And Tim Duncan.. A lot of ppl consider Duncan to be the "greatest PF to play the game" but compared to Karl Malone the have a similar career.. Both received about the same Accolades as far as individually Stats are almost similar Duncan was a better defender but Malone was a better scorer (2nd all Time) But because Duncan has 4 rings he's considered the best pf to play the game.. At the end of the day its all about winning the ring but sometimes you strip a player of his rings he's just not that appealing anymore...

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-06-2011, 01:56 AM
Is Kevin Love better at 22 than Duncan was at 22? Duncan won a ring that year, but Love is outperforming him statistically.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=loveke01&y1=2011&p2=duncati01&y2=1999

Numbers do not always tell the whole story.

AIRMAR72
02-06-2011, 05:42 AM
i tend to remember players by there skills winning as unit and getting da ring is also great status for da team and organization and self acclaim but Most Valuable Player and numbers speaks louder than rings imagine someone saying Derick Fisher is better than Chris Paul because he has rings or (Craig Hodge former bull) is better than Barron Davis cause he has multiple rings noway Mr Harry you gotta go to numbers that tells you the body of work da player had produce

J-Relo
02-06-2011, 06:36 AM
If we compare the present we compare the present.
If we compare careers we add the past.


Kobe has 5 rings. He has the experience. That's it.
It's not like he is playing like he had in his best years, he is older.

A question to all of you: Jordan before he got his first ring (was almost the same age as Lebron), if we compare that Jordan and this Kobe, who's better?

flclfanman
02-06-2011, 06:51 AM
Good topic

So we're debating (for example) whether Ray Allen is better than Reggie Miller since he has a ring. similar stats and accomplishments, but one has the hardware.

Despite the ring I think Reggie's Better


In the end for the players it comes down to stats b/c no one is going to say Sam Perkins (10 rings) is better than Patrick Ewing (zero rings), etc.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-06-2011, 11:26 AM
Nobody has answered my question. Is Lebron less of a player now that his stats are lower than normal? Or would you admit they are lower because he now has offensive help?

aces01
02-06-2011, 01:18 PM
Good topic

So we're debating (for example) whether Ray Allen is better than Reggie Miller since he has a ring. similar stats and accomplishments, but one has the hardware.

Despite the ring I think Reggie's Better


In the end for the players it comes down to stats b/c no one is going to say Sam Perkins (10 rings) is better than Patrick Ewing (zero rings), etc.

Right, your first example was a good one. This only applies to two players with similar stats and roles on a team. There's no comparing a role player who has a ton of rings with a starter that doesn't have any.

Reversed86Curse
02-06-2011, 01:31 PM
Yea I actually just don't agree with it, and I know I'm probably in the minority there. Obviously you're talking about Lebron and Kobe, but I'm just talking about any players that fit the situation. I don't think it's fair to blame player B for not having a championship caliber team around him in a game like basketball.

On a side note, in my opinion, if you put Kobe on the Cavs last year, they're not winning in championship. If you put Lebron on the Lakers, they have a better chance than the Cavs do with Kobe.

Ya, and you leave Kobe on the Lakers and put Lebron back on the Cavs, the Lakers still have a better chance to win than Cleveland. Just goes to show that Kobe or Lebron strictly aren't the piece to win a 'chip.

aces01
02-06-2011, 01:37 PM
Ya, and you leave Kobe on the Lakers and put Lebron back on the Cavs, the Lakers still have a better chance to win than Cleveland. Just goes to show that Kobe or Lebron strictly aren't the piece to win a 'chip.

Exactly, and that's why I don't think it's fair to blame Lebron for not winning one in Cleveland. A championship has more to do with the supporting cast than just one player. I'm not a fan of "Kobe won 5 rings", to me it's "the lakers won 5 rings".

Gambeezy
02-06-2011, 01:45 PM
I suppose it boils down to personal opinion.

You're not going to convince me that a prime or current Derek Fisher is a better player than prime or current Jason Kidd based solely on ring count. Fisher could win 10 and Kidd 0, I'd tell you Kidd was the 'better' player

Better is a subjective term as well. What does better mean to you? If it means fulfilling a need for your team so well that it leads to winning multiple championships, then you can (unfortunately) make a case for Fisher. I still wouldn't respect your case though based on my view of 'better player'.

aces01
02-06-2011, 01:48 PM
I didn't look it up, but I'm just assuming that Kidd and Fisher don't have similar stats. It can really only apply to two similar players regarding to talent and stats. They're both starting point guards, but I don't think a case can be made that they are similar in talent. In my opinion, Kidd would be viewed as the better point guard by most.

John Walls Era
02-06-2011, 01:51 PM
Bad question. Are we assuming the stats are similar? If the stats are very close, the I always pick the guy with the rings.

However if this is a Kobe vs Lebron thread, then Lebron is better because his stats blow Kobe's out of the water.

aces01
02-06-2011, 01:52 PM
Yes we are assuming stats are similar, it's in the original post. Do you pick the guy with rings because you actually think he's better or do you just think he's considered better?

Bornknick73
02-06-2011, 01:56 PM
I guess Im looking at it a different way. Adam Morrison was on the Lakers roster when they won a ring right? If so that means he was a champion. Does that make him or any other guy who was on the roster better than any other player. And I dont mean the rotation guys.

There are plenty of guys who rode coat tails to get a ring. Doesnt make them better players. Now if we are talking about rotation players then its a maybe. Fisher won 5 rings does that make him better then say Gary Payton or John Stockton? NO. Without Kobe/Shaq/Pau Fisher is just a decent role player who can hit a big shot when it call s for it. On most teams he isnt even a starter. Hes a starter because Kobe says so. Hell, hes a Laker because Kobe said so.

So the answer to the question I feel is no. They players with the rings(with the exception of the STAR players from those teams) were just lucky to be playing on the teams that they played for. Fish may have won a few games with a big shot here and there but no way is he better then Stockton or Nash. He was just luckier to be playing with great players.

And Laker fans this is not a disrespect towards Fish, hes a good player with championship heart. But hes the best example I can come up with at the moment.

Bornknick73
02-06-2011, 01:58 PM
My apologies if the original question was pertaining to similar stats. If the STATS are the same then the player with the Rings could be considered better because they used thier stats to win that ring. The opposing player stats didnt contribute to the ring so the ring player is better

aces01
02-06-2011, 02:02 PM
Can you blame that player for "not using his stats to win a ring" though? I guess that's what it comes down to. If they have similar stats, can you use not winning a ring against the player on a team that isn't championship caliber?

Kobes a Killer
02-06-2011, 02:08 PM
In the words of Jay Z "Men lie, Women lie, numbers don't"

Kobe fan here

Right now Kobe>LeBron

When it's all said and done, if LeBron wins atleast 3 rings... and it upsets me to say this, he will probably smash most of Kobes records (besides the 81 and the 13 threes)... then when it's all said and done probably LeBron>Kobe :(:(:(:(:(:(

smith&wesson
02-06-2011, 02:11 PM
No, it just probably means the player with the ring has a better team.

dwade has a ring. but i trully beleive lebron is better.

Kobes a Killer
02-06-2011, 02:13 PM
Can you blame that player for "not using his stats to win a ring" though? I guess that's what it comes down to. If they have similar stats, can you use not winning a ring against the player on a team that isn't championship caliber?

How do you not use your stats to win a ring????? I dunno LBJs exact stats last 2 playoffs but i'm pretty sure he was trying to win a ring, until he knew it was too late and looked like he gave up.

Yes you've said this a million times, similar stats one has rings the other none...... Most obvious answer ever, same stats but one has rings the other doesn't, obviously you're gonna go with the guy who has rings

For example LBJs 2 seasons with best record in the league, is IMO championship caliber, yes they were too small to handle the big teams, but that doesn't mean it was impossible for them to make the finals, like they did a few years back, they just effed up, but to anyone who says best record in the league 2 years in a row isn't finals worthy or championship worthy is just BSing themselves

aces01
02-06-2011, 02:17 PM
The whole "not using his stats to win a ring" was quoting the guy before me. So I guess you'd have to ask him about that.

Regarding you saying his team was championship caliber. Sure they had the best record and could be championship caliber, but the best record doesn't always mean the best team in my opinion. You can have 6 teams that are championship caliber, but that doesn't mean they're all equal..

I just think that if you took Lebron and Kobe off of their teams last year and had the Cavs play the Lakers, the Lakers are clearly the better team.

Kobes a Killer
02-06-2011, 02:17 PM
No, it just probably means the player with the ring has a better team.

dwade has a ring. but i trully beleive lebron is better.

That Miami team that won a ring isn't much better than LeBrons best record in the league 2 years running. Wade just put that team on his back, he had a Michaelesque mid range game going on, completely unstoppable, not to mention him taking it to the rack almost everytime. Wade carried that team, and his playoff performance was unreal, I think Lebrons cavs coulda won a ring if he played anything like Wade did that year, but the key words here are
Michaelesque mid range game going on Something LeBron can't really get going for one game, not to mention a 6-7 game series

aces01
02-06-2011, 02:20 PM
How do you not use your stats to win a ring????? I dunno LBJs exact stats last 2 playoffs but i'm pretty sure he was trying to win a ring, until he knew it was too late and looked like he gave up.

Yes you've said this a million times, similar stats one has rings the other none...... Most obvious answer ever, same stats but one has rings the other doesn't, obviously you're gonna go with the guy who has rings

For example LBJs 2 seasons with best record in the league, is IMO championship caliber, yes they were too small to handle the big teams, but that doesn't mean it was impossible for them to make the finals, like they did a few years back, they just effed up, but to anyone who says best record in the league 2 years in a row isn't finals worthy or championship worthy is just BSing themselves

Really? According to the poll, I'd have to completely disagree with you that this is the most obvious answer ever. Especially because you only said you're going to go with the guy who has rings without even answering the question..you're going with him because you actually think he's a better player or just considered one?

Young and Stupid
02-06-2011, 02:24 PM
We're still having this debate? All arrogance aside, I think I addressed the question as well as could have been answered back on page 2:


LeBron James has been better than Kobe Bryant for the past three seasons. You can't compare their careers because they're at completely different stages.

Kobe has played alongside far more talent than LeBron has. The best player LeBron has played next to is probably Mo Williams (or Jamison take your pick). If you compare that to Kobe's list of players you probably wouldn't get down to Williams until around the fifteen to twenty range.

Rings are overrated in terms of evaluating an individual player's success, however they will never cease to be the ultimate tool of measurement when assessing an NBA player's career. It's not logical, but it is what it is.

Kobes a Killer
02-06-2011, 02:24 PM
The whole "not using his stats to win a ring" was quoting the guy before me. So I guess you'd have to ask him about that.

Regarding you saying his team was championship caliber. Sure they had the best record and could be championship caliber, but the best record doesn't always mean the best team in my opinion. You can have 6 teams that are championship caliber, but that doesn't mean they're all equal..

I just think that if you took Lebron and Kobe off of their teams last year and had the Cavs play the Lakers, the Lakers are clearly the better team.

I agree, but had Mo not dropped his level of play, among other players they could have won it all (I dunno about beating the Lakers though actually) but had they all been playing at 100% of their ability, had they all been playing out of their minds then they could have done much better, but maybe we'll give credit to the defense of the teams they faced.

Ya no doubt on this, LeBron raised those dudes level of play sooo much it's crazy, not that theyre not good players, but they just need their superstar to open up room for them. For example in high school I played with a really athletic tall dude and I wouldn't have done as good as I did without him on my team because he got me a lot of easy points, but I was good enough to hit those open 3s, I was smart enough to cut back door and finish those lay ups with either hand... Kinda what i'm talking about with the cavs, dont take too much credit away from those players because lebron didn't make them put the ball in the hoop they had enough talent to do it themselves, but boy did he open things up for them

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-06-2011, 02:28 PM
Did Lebron put up those stats because he had no offensive help? His numbers don't look so great when he is put in the same position as Kobe. By same position I mean he now has offensive help. He has a chance to win a ring, but his numbers are down across the board. Is he not good as he was the past two seasons?

So if two players have similar stats, and one wins a ring, you have to ask why didn't the player who didn't win the ring have better numbers.

Kobes a Killer
02-06-2011, 02:30 PM
Really? According to the poll, I'd have to completely disagree with you that this is the most obvious answer ever. Especially because you only said you're going to go with the guy who has rings without even answering the question..you're going with him because you actually think he's a better player or just considered one?

We're talking 2 players with very similar stats, one dude has rings the other doesn't. I'm just saying i'm gonna give the guy with rings credit cause he deserves it. One guy has the #1 seed out West one guy has the #1 seed out East.... It's not like we're comparing Reggie to Kobe who was a great player but wasn't blessed with talent around to get a #1 seed (more than once anyways). We're talking about 2 guys who have similar stats, each have a competitive team, one guy just won rings the other didn't, It's not like one guy was a #1 seed and the other was a #5-8

aces01
02-06-2011, 02:35 PM
Did Lebron put up those stats because he had no offensive help? His numbers don't look so great when he is put in the same position as Kobe. By same position I mean he now has offensive help. Be has a chance to win a ring, but his numbers are down across the board

So if two players have similar stats, and one wins a ring, you have to ask why didn't the player who didn't win the ring have better numbers.

This actually came up earlier. I think that a great player with less offensive talent around him will have the ball more, that's without question. I don't think it necessarily translates to better stats though. If you're on a worse team, a defense can concentrate more on you, and you have to do more yourself which can lead to doing "too much".

If you have better offensive talent around you, it can lead to easier baskets because double teams will most likely be less frequent.

ManRam
02-06-2011, 02:35 PM
My views don't align with any of the choices.

Rings matter, but they are FAR from being the be-all end-all. Is Kobe Bryant any less of a player if he stayed with Charlotte and never had an all-star sidekick and thus no rings? No. He'd still be the same player he is now. We'd give the advantage to LA Kobe over Charlotte Kobe for certain, but in reality they'd be the same player.

Circumstances matter. If you can't see passed rings, you're cheating logic. If you comparison is simply Player A has 9 rings and Player B has 7 rings therefore player A is better...than your logic is flawed.

It isn't just stats, it isn't just rings, it isn't just anything. The problem with most fans is they think it all boils down to one thing.

I value rings less than most people it seems like. Kobe, for example, could win 3 more rings, but it doesn't make up for the FACT that he was never ever better than Jordan. If you then go 8 Rings > 6 Rings therefore Kobe is better, then I'm not going to talk to you ;) Because Jordan was just flat out better, period. Rings or no rings.

aces01
02-06-2011, 02:36 PM
We're talking 2 players with very similar stats, one dude has rings the other doesn't. I'm just saying i'm gonna give the guy with rings credit cause he deserves it. One guy has the #1 seed out West one guy has the #1 seed out East.... It's not like we're comparing Reggie to Kobe who was a great player but wasn't blessed with talent around to get a #1 seed (more than once anyways). We're talking about 2 guys who have similar stats, each have a competitive team, one guy just won rings the other didn't, It's not like one guy was a #1 seed and the other was a #5-8

Actually we aren't really talking about a #1 seed in the West and a #1 seed in the East. Player A could have a #1 seed, and player B could have a #5 seed. That's the point of it actually, can playing on a worse team be held against player B?

ManRam
02-06-2011, 02:39 PM
We're talking 2 players with very similar stats, one dude has rings the other doesn't. I'm just saying i'm gonna give the guy with rings credit cause he deserves it. One guy has the #1 seed out West one guy has the #1 seed out East.... It's not like we're comparing Reggie to Kobe who was a great player but wasn't blessed with talent around to get a #1 seed (more than once anyways). We're talking about 2 guys who have similar stats, each have a competitive team, one guy just won rings the other didn't, It's not like one guy was a #1 seed and the other was a #5-8

What is the guy with less rings has slightly better numbers, but never played with an all-star and the guy with more rings but slightly lesser stats always played with another top 5-10 player in the league? You still wouldn't look deeper than just examining the # of rings?

aces01
02-06-2011, 02:40 PM
My views don't align with any of the choices.

Rings matter, but they are FAR from being the be-all end-all. Is Kobe Bryant any less of a player if he stayed with Charlotte and never had an all-star sidekick and thus no rings? No. He'd still be the same player he is now. We'd give the advantage to LA Kobe over Charlotte Kobe for certain, but in reality they'd be the same player.

Circumstances matter. If you can't see passed rings, you're cheating logic. If you comparison is simply Player A has 9 rings and Player B has 7 rings therefore player A is better...than your logic is flawed.

It isn't just stats, it isn't just rings, it isn't just anything. The problem with most fans is they think it all boils down to one thing.

I value rings less than most people it seems like. Kobe, for example, could win 3 more rings, but it doesn't make up for the FACT that he was never ever better than Jordan. If you then go 8 Rings > 6 Rings therefore Kobe is better, then I'm not going to talk to you ;) Because Jordan was just flat out better, period. Rings or no rings.

Agree with the bolded part 100%.

Kobes a Killer
02-06-2011, 02:49 PM
Actually we aren't really talking about a #1 seed in the West and a #1 seed in the East. Player A could have a #1 seed, and player B could have a #5 seed. That's the point of it actually, can playing on a worse team be held against player B?

Actually almost everyone is talking about Kobe Vs LeBron now, I saw it on page 1. Yes playing on a worse team can be held against him, but were talking about 2 dudes who got their team to #1 seeds and one of them delivered and one didn't, had LeBron played like Wade in 06 I think we would have seen LA Cleveland going 7 games, but Lebron just can't take over every aspect of the game, not like Wade did in 06. I really dont know what else to say, I agree with parts of what you guys are saying and I disagree with other parts.

When you're looking at individual stats and they are similar then you just have 2 great players pretty much equal so leave it at that, if you wanna bring rings into it, then at the end of the day, yes the guy who has the rings is gonna be looked at as the superior. Kobe won 3 with Shaq (who is one of the greatest players of all time) and Kobe won 2 rings with Pau (not one of the greatest players of all time, far far far from where Shaq ranks) Kobe deserves tons of credit for leading those last 2 teams to the last 2 rings

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-06-2011, 02:50 PM
What is the guy with less rings has slightly better numbers, but never played with an all-star and the guy with more rings but slightly lesser stats always played with another top 5-10 player in the league? You still wouldn't look deeper than just examining the # of rings?

Please answer me this. Is Lebron a worse player now than he was the past two years? His numbers are down across the board. He is now playing with all star talent, so by your logic, his PER, assist, true shooting% should all be career highs right?

aces01
02-06-2011, 02:53 PM
Actually almost everyone is talking about Kobe Vs LeBron now, I saw it on page 1. Yes playing on a worse team can be held against him, but were talking about 2 dudes who got their team to #1 seeds and one of them delivered and one didn't, had LeBron played like Wade in 06 I think we would have seen LA Cleveland going 7 games, but Lebron just can't take over every aspect of the game, not like Wade did in 06. I really dont know what else to say, I agree with parts of what you guys are saying and I disagree with other parts.

When you're looking at individual stats and they are similar then you just have 2 great players pretty much equal so leave it at that, if you wanna bring rings into it, then at the end of the day, yes the guy who has the rings is gonna be looked at as the superior. Kobe won 3 with Shaq (who is one of the greatest players of all time) and Kobe won 2 rings with Pau (not one of the greatest players of all time, far far far from where Shaq ranks) Kobe deserves tons of credit for leading those last 2 teams to the last 2 rings

Right, and I'm not saying Kobe wasn't a big part of his championships. On the other hand, the point of the thread is not Kobe vs Lebron, and I think you answered the real question. You said he will be "looked at" as the superior player. I'm assuming this means you don't actually think they are the better player.

ManRam
02-06-2011, 02:54 PM
Actually almost everyone is talking about Kobe Vs LeBron now, I saw it on page 1. Yes playing on a worse team can be held against him, but were talking about 2 dudes who got their team to #1 seeds and one of them delivered and one didn't, had LeBron played like Wade in 06 I think we would have seen LA Cleveland going 7 games, but Lebron just can't take over every aspect of the game, not like Wade did in 06. I really dont know what else to say, I agree with parts of what you guys are saying and I disagree with other parts.

When you're looking at individual stats and they are similar then you just have 2 great players pretty much equal so leave it at that, if you wanna bring rings into it, then at the end of the day, yes the guy who has the rings is gonna be looked at as the superior. Kobe won 3 with Shaq (who is one of the greatest players of all time) and Kobe won 2 rings with Pau (not one of the greatest players of all time, far far far from where Shaq ranks) Kobe deserves tons of credit for leading those last 2 teams to the last 2 rings

I have no way to back this up, but I don't think most would agree with me...but there is no doubt in my mind that LeBron did more with that cast than Kobe ever could. Sure, he never won, but I still maintain he took that team further than they had any business going, and I blame him very, very, very little for not getting a ring there.

Kobe benefited more than any recent top 5-10 player in the NBA in terms of circumstances. He got a gift from God when Shaq came to Los Angeles, and when Kupchak got Pau and company. LeBron got a gift from hell. He went to a tiny market where no start wanted to go to...and inherited the worst team in the NBA...that in reality continued to be the worst team in the NBA the second he left.

Circumstances matter. I'm not trying to discredit Kobe, but you can't deny it. He got dealt a great hand. And that isn't something you can ignore.

You can't stop at rings. You can't stop at stats. You can't stop at anything. You need to be more thorough and incorporate a multitude of things into your decision.

aces01
02-06-2011, 02:55 PM
Please answer me this. Is Lebron a worse player now than he was the past two years? His numbers are down across the board. He is now playing with all star talent, so by your logic, his PER, assist, true shooting% should all be career highs right?

I'm not really sure where you're going with this though. Take his stats as they are right now, and just compare them to someone with similar stats. It doesn't matter whether they're better or worse in a season, it's all about the comparison to a player with similar ones.

If you're just trying to say Kobe's stats would be higher if he didn't have as much talent around him..you may or may not be right, but you also have to wonder how many rings he would have too if you're going to use rings as a main point of comparison.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-06-2011, 02:55 PM
This actually came up earlier. I think that a great player with less offensive talent around him will have the ball more, that's without question. I don't think it necessarily translates to better stats though. If you're on a worse team, a defense can concentrate more on you, and you have to do more yourself which can lead to doing "too much".

If you have better offensive talent around you, it can lead to easier baskets because double teams will most likely be less frequent.

But history shows this not to be the case. Kobe best statistical years were when he was not playing with Shaq or Gasol. Lebron is having his worst season in 5 years. Wade is down numbers and efficiency wise. Your logic names sense, but does not always come to fruition.

ManRam
02-06-2011, 02:57 PM
Please answer me this. Is Lebron a worse player now than he was the past two years? His numbers are down across the board. He is now playing with all star talent, so by your logic, his PER, assist, true shooting% should all be career highs right?

I don't know why you're asking me this. That isn't my logic. I never said stats are all that matter. In fact, I'm not even coming close to insinuating that. You're putting words in my mouth.

And to answer your question...No. I'm not a moron who just looks at rings, or just looks at stats or just looks at any one thing. I like to think I have to ability to bring a lot of factors into play. My whole point here is CIRCUMSTANCES.

LeBron is still the best player in the NBA...that doesn't change because of circumstances. Just like Kobe wouldn't be any less of a player if he had never played with Shaq or Pau...and had no rings. He'd be perceived as less, but he wouldn't be.

aces01
02-06-2011, 03:00 PM
If two guys are playing poker, the better poker player can only do so much with the hand he is dealt. This may lead to him losing to a worse poker player with a better hand.

ManRam
02-06-2011, 03:01 PM
But history shows this not to be the case. Kobe best statistical years were when he was not playing with Shaq or Gasol. Lebron is having his worst season in 5 years. Wade is down numbers and efficiency wise. Your logic names sense, but does not always come to fruition.

And this is why stats aren't the be-all and end-all...just like anyone who voted for the first choice in this poll is wrong, and just as wrong as those who voted for the 3rd choice.

What did Kobe do with those teams? Not much. What did LeBron do when he had little help around him? Quite a bit more. Sure, they benefited statistically from not having a lot of help...but you need to incorporate more into the picture; which is again my whole argument here. There are a ton of things that need to be factored in...much more than just a few stats and a ring cout.

ManRam
02-06-2011, 03:01 PM
If two guys are playing poker, the better poker player can only do so much with the hand he is dealt. This may lead to him losing to a worse poker player with a better hand.

Perfect analogy.

aces01
02-06-2011, 03:02 PM
But history shows this not to be the case. Kobe best statistical years were when he was not playing with Shaq or Gasol. Lebron is having his worst season in 5 years. Wade is down numbers and efficiency wise. Your logic names sense, but does not always come to fruition.

Absolutely, I agree with you, it's not always going to come true. I was just saying that this could be the case. There's no saying how Kobe would do in a different system, all just speculation.

Storch
02-06-2011, 03:04 PM
Stats get inflated when a player has less talent on his team, thus his stats would be better.

Rings would get inflated when a player has more talent on his team, thus his rings would be more.

So its not comparable.

ManRam
02-06-2011, 03:13 PM
Stats get inflated when a player has less talent on his team, thus his stats would be better.

Rings would get inflated when a player has more talent on his team, thus his rings would be more.

So its not comparable.

The flaw is just using one or the other to compare players. Use both, but use everything with a grain of salt too. I won't say that I agree or disagree with what you're getting at...

There's so much more you can look at than just stats and just rings. In relation to what you're getting at....You can look at how far a player can take a poor cast. Kobe didn't take his bad teams far at all, granted, they had a bit less talent (some years)...but does that make up for the discrepancy between #1 overall record (Cavs) to 11th in the West (2005 Lakers). That's not really an argument I'd use...but I'm just trying to elaborate on how anyone who simplifies the comparison of two players to any one thing is cheating themselves out of logic.

There's literally hundreds of things that can be factored in...and rings is one of the more trivial ones to include.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-06-2011, 03:17 PM
QUOTE=aces01
I'm not really sure where you're going with this though. Take his stats as they are right now, and just compare them to someone with similar stats. It doesn't matter whether they're better or worse in a season, it's all about the comparison to a player with similar ones.

The reason I am arguing Lebron against Lebron, is because it takes away any thought of me being a Laker/Kobe homer or Lebron hater. And it is the same concept of the thread. How would you judge who is the better player? The Lebron putting up insane numbers and one of the highest PER's in history? Or this years Lebron who has good numbers, and he wins a championship?



If you're just trying to say Kobe's stats would be higher if he didn't have as much talent around him..you may or may not be right, but you also have to wonder how many rings he would have too if you're going to use rings as a main point of comparison.

I am saying Kobe's numbers would be better if he was not playing on the championhip calibur teams. But thats my point, he would not have won any rings, but his numbers would be insane. Does that make him a better player than he currently is? Or does yours and most others opinions regarding a player winning rings, has more to do with circumstances, also hold true for a player who puts up bettter stats. He may just do it because circumstances allow him to.

If we are going to discredit rings becuase of teammates, then I will discredit stats because of teammates as well

Avenged
02-06-2011, 03:22 PM
If they have similar stats and talent like the OP says, then you have to look at defense and the intangibles when trying to decide who's better when it's that close. Impact is also another major thing you have to look at, who completely changes the game when they're in. If you still can't come to a conclusion, you look to the championships. I don't know why people all of a sudden discredit winning rings. It's only because Kobe that all of this ring talk doesn't matter anymore.. SMH.

ManRam
02-06-2011, 03:23 PM
No one is discrediting rings. They matter, a lot, but like everything else, they have to be taken with a grain of salt. If you DON'T pay attention to circumstances you're cheating logic.

It is my opinion that LeBron has been the best player in the NBA the last three years, despite not winning a ring or two. It is my opinion that Bill Russell was better than Wilt and a big reason why is the ring discrepancy.

All I know is that I'm arguing that rings are not the final determinant, nor should stats be...nor should any one criterion. Sometimes they matter more and sometimes they matter less...and it all depends on a variety of other factors.


And Avenged, Kobe has definitely changed the discussion some. Free agency wasn't a factor for a very long time. Kobe's legacy is unique in that regard...and it's also unique in that he played on basically three very different teams. He went from being the #2 option on a three-peat team, to a #1 option on a terrible team, to a #1 option on a great team again. He's unique.

Circumstances matter now more than ever I feel...and free agency is a big reason why.

aces01
02-06-2011, 03:24 PM
QUOTE=aces01

The reason I am arguing Lebron against Lebron, is because it takes away any thought of me being a Laker/Kobe homer or Lebron hater. And it is the same concept of the thread. How would you judge who is the better player? The Lebron putting up insane numbers and one of the highest PER's in history? Or this years Lebron who has good numbers, and he wins a championship?




I am saying Kobe's numbers would be better if he was not playing on the championhip calibur teams. But thats my point, he would not have won any rings, but his numbers would be insane. Does that make him a better player than he currently is? Or does yours and most others opinions regarding a player winning rings, has more to do with circumstances, also hold true for a player who puts up bettter stats. He may just do it because circumstances allow him to.

If we are going to discredit rings becuase of teammates, then I will discredit stats because of teammates as well

Regarding your first paragraph, I see where you're going with it, but I don't think it can be argued. If his stats are down, but still similar, then you can compare. If they're no longer similar, then it has to be compared to a player with similar stats.

Your second paragraph I think I agree with. Say Kobe did go to a worse team and had higher stats. I don't think him not winning a ring there can be held against him. Bottom line, I don't think rings should be as big of a factor as people make it in deciding who's a better player. I'm not here to argue Lebron vs Kobe.

Avenged
02-06-2011, 03:26 PM
QUOTE=aces01

The reason I am arguing Lebron against Lebron, is because it takes away any thought of me being a Laker/Kobe homer or Lebron hater. And it is the same concept of the thread. How would you judge who is the better player? The Lebron putting up insane numbers and one of the highest PER's in history? Or this years Lebron who has good numbers, and he wins a championship?




I am saying Kobe's numbers would be better if he was not playing on the championhip calibur teams. But thats my point, he would not have won any rings, but his numbers would be insane. Does that make him a better player than he currently is? Or does yours and most others opinions regarding a player winning rings, has more to do with circumstances, also hold true for a player who puts up bettter stats. He may just do it because circumstances allow him to.

If we are going to discredit rings becuase of teammates, then I will discredit stats because of teammates as well

Practically what I tried to say.. beats me why people discredit rings just because it benefits Kobe. :shrug:

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-06-2011, 03:28 PM
The flaw is just using one or the other to compare players. Use both, but use everything with a grain of salt too. I won't say that I agree or disagree with what you're getting at...

There's so much more you can look at than just stats and just rings. In relation to what you're getting at....You can look at how far a player can take a poor cast. Kobe didn't take his bad teams far at all, granted, they had a bit less talent (some years)...but does that make up for the discrepancy between #1 overall record (Cavs) to 11th in the West (2005 Lakers). That's not really an argument I'd use...but I'm just trying to elaborate on how anyone who simplifies the comparison of two players to any one thing is cheating themselves out of logic.

There's literally hundreds of things that can be factored in...and rings is one of the more trivial ones to include.

Your right, but you also forgot to factor in who they play. Doesnt your schedule say a lot about your record and your stats? Does that not have to be taken into consideration? The Lakers making the 7th seed in that western conference is just as good as Lebron getting the Cavs to the finals in that East. But Lebron gets credit for doing that right?

If I go out and beat up on a ******** man today, and then I beat up another ******** man tomorrow, and then I go and beat up on an old woman the next day, and then I do that 50 more times against the same type of opponents, does that mean my 50 and 0 record makes me the best fighter in the world? It sure does not look that way when I get my @$$ kicked by someone who has relatively the same skill set as me. Get my drift?;)

aces01
02-06-2011, 03:30 PM
Practically what I tried to say.. beats me why people discredit rings just because it benefits Kobe. :shrug:

That's just not the case. It would be hard to argue that rings don't matter at all, it's just a matter of how important they are. Some think it's a deciding factor, and some think it's just one of many things incorporated.

Avenged
02-06-2011, 03:32 PM
No one is discrediting rings. They matter, a lot, but like everything else, they have to be taken with a grain of salt. If you DON'T pay attention to circumstances you're cheating logic.

It is my opinion that LeBron has been the best player in the NBA the last three years, despite not winning a ring or two. It is my opinion that Bill Russell was better than Wilt and a big reason why is the ring discrepancy.

All I know is that I'm arguing that rings are not the final determinant, nor should stats be...nor should any one criterion. Sometimes they matter more and sometimes they matter less...and it all depends on a variety of other factors.


And Avenged, Kobe has definitely changed the discussion some. Free agency wasn't a factor for a very long time. Kobe's legacy is unique in that regard...and it's also unique in that he played on basically three very different teams. He went from being the #2 option on a three-peat team, to a #1 option on a terrible team, to a #1 option on a great team again. He's unique.

Circumstances matter now more than ever I feel...and free agency is a big reason why.

I've said before I think Lebron is the better player.. I am not arguing that with anyone. It's just that a lot of people can't accept championships when it comes to Kobe, why? because he's Kobe? If stats aren't the be all end all tail, then why are rings so discredited on PSD? Most all-time greats are greats for that very reason, rings.

ManRam
02-06-2011, 03:34 PM
That's just not the case. It would be hard to argue that rings don't matter at all, it's just a matter of how important they are. Some think it's a deciding factor, and some think it's just one of many things incorporated.

Again, well said.

No one is trying to say they don't matter at all. At least, I'm not and aces isn't either. It's how important they are. Anyone who thinks that they are all that matter, and formulates their argument by saying "Player A is better than Player B because he has more rings" is, again, cheating logic. We're just trying to say it's not that simple.

Again, I like aces' poker analogy, and I like my Kobe analogy about him being the same player regardless of circumstances and rings won.

Lastly, since I think we're digging deeper into this than needed, rings matter tremendously. I value Kobe more than anyone else in this era, besides maybe Duncan or Shaq, in a large part because of his rings (those other guys have multiple rings too). The name of the game is to win...but not all players are dealt the same hand, and that is something that MUST be taken into consideration...along with the hundreds of other deciding factors.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-06-2011, 03:34 PM
Regarding your first paragraph, I see where you're going with it, but I don't think it can be argued. If his stats are down, but still similar, then you can compare. If they're no longer similar, then it has to be compared to a player with similar stats.

Your second paragraph I think I agree with. Say Kobe did go to a worse team and had higher stats. I don't think him not winning a ring there can be held against him. Bottom line, I don't think rings should be as big of a factor as people make it in deciding who's a better player. I'm not here to argue Lebron vs Kobe.

I know you're not. I was just using them since everyone else did. And I know why you would not want to discredit a player for not winning a championship. Circumstances prevent some players from obtaining that. But you cant then just look at the stats either. Because by the same token, your teammates dictate what type of stats you can put up.

So if we swapped scenarios, and Lebron played with Shaq, and Gasol, and won 5 rings, but his numbers go way down because he had to share the load, and you know Shaq will demand that he shared the load. And Kobe go's and plays in the East, puts up better numbers than Lebron could have because he had free reign, would everyone still be hollering that Kobe is better than Lebron because he had better numbers? Or would they say Lebron is better cause 5-0?

Hawkeye15
02-06-2011, 03:36 PM
not enough options in the poll. My opinions have been made clear. A player should be measured on stats, dominance amongst peers, accolades, awards, and rings. If you base your opinion on just one of those, or even two, you are missing the big picture. Rings take great roster support to get. Its the single thing that a player depends on his teammates most for, so just saying player A is better then player B, because he has more rings, is ridiculous. But so is saying, player A has better stats than player B, so he is clearly better. You have to look at everything when rating a player.
It gets even tougher when rating players still playing, especially when at a high level. Take LeBron for example. I can't see a way he doesn't get a ring or two. Does that just automatically jump him a bunch of spots in all time rankings? I am not so sure it should, its just another part of the equation imo.

kobe24>lebron23
02-06-2011, 03:36 PM
Rings are an overrated individual metric.

Winning is a team effort. You simply cannot fault a player for being stuck on poor teams.

Rings matter, but people value them way too much. Seriously, way too much.

I'll use the most popular example...

No matter how many rings Kobe wins, he'll never be as good of a player as Jordan. He never was better than him, he'll never be better than him, and winning more rings doesn't change that fact.

I've never gotten this by people if u guys say Kobe will never be better then Jordan then why the **** compare them lol haha I bet if Kobe played in the 80's and 90'sand Jordan now he would be regarded as the greatest ever... But ofcourse if and it's stupid people like u who say if this and if that... How do we know things wouldn't happen how do we know Kobe couldn't lead the cava to a ring?? Exactly if's and or buts ain't **** stop trying to knock a player down for his accomplishments... Kobe is the most polarized superstar ever idk why there is always a need to bring him down he's great but I guess people really don't know what they are currently witnessing!

ManRam
02-06-2011, 03:38 PM
I've said before I think Lebron is the better player.. I am not arguing that with anyone. It's just that a lot of people can't accept championships when it comes to Kobe, why? because he's Kobe? If stats aren't the be all end all tail, then why are rings so discredited on PSD? Most all-time greats are greats for that very reason, rings.

You're right...but again, Kobe's circumstances are unique, much more so than any of the other top 15 players to ever play this game. His rings are his crowning achievements, for certain, and they should be...but literally my only point here is that they don't matter more than every other factor, and they aren't important enough to use as an argument on their own.

Jordan isn't the best because he has 6 rings. He's the best because he was the best. Rings is too much of a team effort to allow it to be the only determining factor.

Avenged
02-06-2011, 03:38 PM
That's just not the case. It would be hard to argue that rings don't matter at all, it's just a matter of how important they are. Some think it's a deciding factor, and some think it's just one of many things incorporated.

If everything is similar like you said in your original post, then why shouldn't rings factor in? Are we just going to say they're tied?

Many disregard rings here on PSD.. I've seen it time and time again. The most overused "phrase" is "Horry has 7 rings, he must be better :rolleyes:"

lol

Hawkeye15
02-06-2011, 03:39 PM
I've never gotten this by people if u guys say Kobe will never be better then Jordan then why the **** compare them lol haha I bet if Kobe played in the 80's and 90'sand Jordan now he would be regarded as the greatest ever... But ofcourse if and it's stupid people like u who say if this and if that... How do we know things wouldn't happen how do we know Kobe couldn't lead the cava to a ring?? Exactly if's and or buts ain't **** stop trying to knock a player down for his accomplishments... Kobe is the most polarized superstar ever idk why there is always a need to bring him down he's great but I guess people really don't know what they are currently witnessing!

no he wouldn't. So Kobe, who is widely known to hate contact, would have faired SO much better in that era, that he becomes a much better player than he has been? That makes zero sense.
Rings are a TEAM accomplishment. Stats, awards, accoladed, dominance amongst peers, now those are individual.

Why do you always bring up Jordan when speaking of Kobe? It kills any credibility you are attempting to make. There is no comparison. Jordan was much better, and proved it every chance he got.

aces01
02-06-2011, 03:40 PM
I know you're not. I was just using them since everyone else did. And I know why you would not want to discredit a player for not winning a championship. Circumstances prevent some players from obtaining that. But you cant then just look at the stats either then. Because by the same token, your teammates dictate what type of stats you can put up.

So if we swapped scenarios, and Lebron played with Shaq, and Gasol, and won 5 rings, but his numbers go way down because he had to share the load, and you know Shaq will demand that he shared the load. And Kobe go's and plays in the East, puts up better numbers than Lebron could have because he had free reign, would everyone still be hollering that Kobe is better than Lebron because he had better numbers? Or would they say Lebron is better cause 5-0?

Referring to your second paragraph. This is a solid example other than the fact that Lebron's number go "way down". We have say that they are similar to be relevant to the topic. Let's say Lebron does play with Shaq and Pau and gets 5 rings and Kobe does play for the Cavs. Kobe's stats may be a little higher than Lebron's, but they're still similar. Just because Lebron wins 5 rings shouldn't mean he is a better player than Kobe. That's all I'm trying to say. A player can only do so much himself, he can't control what team he is on for the most part.

Lebron on the Cavs is the same player as Lebron on the Lakers, and that goes for any other player too. Still the same player, just different outcomes. That's why I don't think rings can be the biggest factor.

kobe24>lebron23
02-06-2011, 03:42 PM
he is the better player. He's better than Kobe ever was.

BUT

Kobe's legacy is >>>>> than LeBron's by far... for now!

Better then Kobe ever was??? R u kidding me??? Lol go back to ur homer school idiot

ManRam
02-06-2011, 03:43 PM
I've never gotten this by people if u guys say Kobe will never be better then Jordan then why the **** compare them lol haha I bet if Kobe played in the 80's and 90'sand Jordan now he would be regarded as the greatest ever... But ofcourse if and it's stupid people like u who say if this and if that... How do we know things wouldn't happen how do we know Kobe couldn't lead the cava to a ring?? Exactly if's and or buts ain't **** stop trying to knock a player down for his accomplishments... Kobe is the most polarized superstar ever idk why there is always a need to bring him down he's great but I guess people really don't know what they are currently witnessing!

No. Because Jordan was literally better across the board than Kobe is. He was a better defender. He was a better scorer. He was a better teammate. He was a better passer. He was a better rebounder. He was a better shot blocker. He turned it over less. He was more cold blooded. His win shares are tremendously more significant. He was a more efficient scorer. He was

Seriously, besides three point shooting, there is not one thing Kobe does better than Jordan did.

I don't buy this argument.

aces01
02-06-2011, 03:43 PM
If everything is similar like you said in your original post, then why shouldn't rings factor in? Are we just going to say they're tied?

Many disregard rings here on PSD.. I've seen it time and time again. The most overused "phrase" is "Horry has 7 rings, he must be better :rolleyes:"

lol

I think you misunderstood me. Everything is similar like you said, but I never said rings don't matter. They do, I just don't think it's fair to say the player with rings is the better player. It's penalizing the player without rings for the circumstances he was put in.

Hawkeye15
02-06-2011, 03:43 PM
Referring to your second paragraph. This is a solid example other than the fact that Lebron's number go "way down". We have say that they are similar to be relevant to the topic. Let's say Lebron does play with Shaq and Pau and gets 5 rings and Kobe does play for the Cavs. Kobe's stats may be a little higher than Lebron's, but they're still similar. Just because Lebron wins 5 rings shouldn't mean he is a better player than Kobe. That's all I'm trying to say. A player can only do so much himself, he can't control what team he is on for the most part.

Lebron on the Cavs is the same player as Lebron on the Lakers, and that goes for any other player too. Still the same player, just different outcomes. That's why I don't think rings can be the biggest factor.

many of you think when per game numbers go down, their stats go down. In reality, with less usage, efficiency rises. So LeBron, next to Shaq or Pau for example over his career, would have had even BETTER efficiency.
Not sure what the point of bringing up a false concept proves. LeBron's ''real" numbers would have been even better next to studs.

ManRam
02-06-2011, 03:46 PM
Better then Kobe ever was??? R u kidding me??? Lol go back to ur homer school idiot

I know Laker fans that agree with him. No need to name call...that's not going to get people to believe your side of the argument.

aces01
02-06-2011, 03:48 PM
many of you think when per game numbers go down, their stats go down. In reality, with less usage, efficiency rises. So LeBron, next to Shaq or Pau for example over his career, would have had even BETTER efficiency.
Not sure what the point of bringing up a false concept proves. LeBron's ''real" numbers would have been even better next to studs.

As far as saying the stats go down, I was quoting someone there.

To be fair, the point of bringing up false concepts is to see what others believe. If there isn't a real life situation to represent the question you want to ask, putting together a made up situation is the easiest way to see what another person believes.

Hawkeye15
02-06-2011, 03:48 PM
Better then Kobe ever was??? R u kidding me??? Lol go back to ur homer school idiot

Individually, LeBron has been a better player than Kobe was at any given time. But it will never be recognized without the ultimate team success.
Kobe actually had his best individual year when the Lakers were down. It just happened to be his peak. And it still wasnt as good as LeBron has been the previous few years.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2006&p2=jamesle01&y2=2009

Look at this comparison of their peak years. LeBron's was better, its pretty easy to see.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-06-2011, 03:50 PM
many of you think when per game numbers go down, their stats go down. In reality, with less usage, efficiency rises. So LeBron, next to Shaq or Pau for example over his career, would have had even BETTER efficiency.
Not sure what the point of bringing up a false concept proves. LeBron's ''real" numbers would have been even better next to studs.

Then why has his "real" numbers fallen so drastically? Why did Kobe's efficiency numbers rise as soon as Shaq left? Why has Wade's numbers fallen off this year from the past two. I was not reffering to per games stats at all. Kobe had two of his best statistical years when he had no help.

If its true what you say about Lebron playing with Shaq and Gasol, why isnt that scenario working out while playing with Wade AND Bosh at the same time? According to you, he should have a PER of around 35 right? He should average a higher assist% because he teammates are so much better right?

Hawkeye15
02-06-2011, 03:51 PM
As far as saying the stats go down, I was quoting someone there.

To be fair, the point of bringing up false concepts is to see what others believe. If there isn't a real life situation to represent the question you want to ask, putting together a made up situation is the easiest way to see what another person believes.

I was furthering your point. Sorry, should have made that clear.
I disagree a bit that making up situations is a way to prove anything (though you are right, it shows what they believe). You enter speculation world then, something dangerous with the intelligence level here.

J-Relo
02-06-2011, 03:53 PM
If we compare the present we compare the present.
If we compare careers we add the past.


Kobe has 5 rings. He has the experience. That's it.
It's not like he is playing like he had in his best years, he is older.

A question to all of you: Jordan before he got his first ring (was almost the same age as Lebron), if we compare that Jordan and this Kobe, who's better?

Hawkeye15
02-06-2011, 03:54 PM
Then why has his "real" numbers fallen so drastically? Why did Kobe's efficiency numbers rise as soon as Shaq left? Why has Wade's numbers fallen off this year from the past two. I was not reffering to per games stats at all. Kobe had two of his best statistical years when he had no help.

If its true what you say about Lebron playing with Shaq and Gasol, why isnt that scenario working out while playing with Wade AND Bosh at the same time? According to you, he should have a PER of around 35 right? He should average a higher assist% because he teammates are so much better right?

LeBron is nearly where he has been for years, with the same usage. Not sure where you are going with that? His stats ARE about the same, and have been climbing since week 4.
Wade is right around the usual as well.

Watch LeBron's numbers over the next few years. You are attempting to use instant gratification with players moving from extremely different roles, and you wanting them to do it without missing a beat. That is not possible. By the end of the year, and through the next few, LeBron will continue to have the most dominant stats in the NBA. He already does really.

aces01
02-06-2011, 03:56 PM
I was furthering your point. Sorry, should have made that clear.
I disagree a bit that making up situations is a way to prove anything (though you are right, it shows what they believe). You enter speculation world then, something dangerous with the intelligence level here.

Pretty funny, can't argue with you there.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-06-2011, 03:58 PM
Individually, LeBron has been a better player than Kobe was at any given time. But it will never be recognized without the ultimate team success.
Kobe actually had his best individual year when the Lakers were down. It just happened to be his peak. And it still wasnt as good as LeBron has been the previous few years.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2006&p2=jamesle01&y2=2009

Look at this comparison of their peak years. LeBron's was better, its pretty easy to see.

That was during his 9th year in the league. After countless finals apperances and most of his athletisism going away. It was his peak year only because circumstances allowed it to be his peak year.

Like I said earlier, Shaq bogged Kobe down. He did not make the game easier for him. He was the main reason Kobe won 3 rings, but it also brought down his per game numbers, as well as his efficiency numbers. We dont know what he could have done with fresh legs, and no need to worry about getting another player touches, or running a certain system because you were afraid to upset the balance of a championship calibur team.

In the 3 years Kobe did not have a chance at winning a championship, he had 2 of his best statistical seasons. I see that trend continuing if he was 20 years old and no chance at winning a ring. Would that make him a better player in your eyes? Or does the fact that he downgraded his game for the sake of team accomplishments not mean anything to you?

abe_froman
02-06-2011, 04:00 PM
Two players of similar talent and stats. One player has rings, and the other doesn't.

Simple Question: Is the player with rings considered a better player, or is he actually a better player in your opinion?

depends how each got their statlines(crunch times,taking over any games,are a batman or robin,ect.).but yes,getting rings is the reason you play the game

aces01
02-06-2011, 04:02 PM
depends how each got their statlines(crunch times,taking over any games,are a batman or robin,ect.).but yes,getting rings is the reason you play the game

That's fair, but getting rings is the reason everyone plays the game..it would be hard to argue that. The question is, can not having a ring be held against a player's individual skill compared to another similar individual?

giants73756
02-06-2011, 04:08 PM
You can't be serious........

Accomplishments >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hype......

Therefore Lebronze is a far far second.

:laugh: I thought this was sarcasm until I saw your signature. How insecure does somebody have to be to have that sig?

Why is it LeBron's fault that he had to play for the Cavs? Look how bad they are now without him. Michael Jordan wouldn't have been able to win with them. Maybe LeBron should have been a ******* like Kobe was and demanded a trade when he knew he was going to be drafted by a horrible team. You shouldn't fault a guy for being a decent person and actually playing for the team you are drafted by.

superkegger
02-06-2011, 04:09 PM
I don't think you can make blanket statements like the OP is asking. I think it all comes down to a case by case basis. There are tons of things to take into consideration. Stats matter, so do rings. So does role, the era the players played in, the competition they played against, the quality of players they played with, what prevented one from winning and what propelled the other to win.

There are just too many factors that go into it to say that, Player A has very similar stats to Player B, but Player B has a ring while Player A doesn't, Player B is better.

abe_froman
02-06-2011, 04:14 PM
That's fair, but getting rings is the reason everyone plays the game..it would be hard to argue that. The question is, can not having a ring be held against a player's individual skill compared to another similar individual?

yes,like i said it depends on the circumstances,why you cant go on blind stats alone like you can in other sports(say baseball).

i hold it against them if they dont get a ring,usually.because one guy found away,took the lead usually to ensure the success.the others may not have,may have just gotten his numbers early in the game ,or only worried about that more than the results.

DODGERS&LAKERS
02-06-2011, 04:16 PM
[QUOTE]LeBron is nearly where he has been for years, with the same usage. Not sure where you are going with that? His stats ARE about the same, and have been climbing since week 4.
Wade is right around the usual as well.

How is having your PER drop from 31.1 to 27, your true shooting% go down from .604 to .583, your assist% from 41.8% down to 37%, your offensive rating from 121 to 115 and your win shares per/48 go down from .299 to .243 add up to someone being "nearly the same player? Thats the difference from being an all time legend to a very good player.


Watch LeBron's numbers over the next few years. You are attempting to use instant gratification with players moving from extremely different roles, and you wanting them to do it without missing a beat. That is not possible. By the end of the year, and through the next few, LeBron will continue to have the most dominant stats in the NBA. He already does really.

How is Lebron in an extremely different role? He does the exact same thing he has done his entire career. And I will watch what he does over the next few years. Im glad your crystal ball gave me a preview, but I cant wait to see if for myself