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View Full Version : Should Kevin Love be an All-Star?



superkegger
01-28-2011, 09:44 PM
Love is averaging 21.6 points and 15.7 rebounds per game, the first player to average at least 20 points and 15 rebounds a game since Moses Malone in 1982-83.

His 15.7 rebounds per game are 2.4 more than the second-leading rebounder, Orlando's Dwight Howard, averages in a game, and he had 31 points and 31 rebounds against the Knicks in November, the first 30-30 since Malone in 1982.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6067838

I think there's probably 3 categories you could fall into here:

Yes, he's clearly an all star.
No, good player on a bad team.
No, but only cause the wolves suck.

So, what do you think, should he be an All star?

jkiddvc20
01-28-2011, 09:44 PM
Hell yes

B'sCeltsPatsSox
01-28-2011, 09:45 PM
Yes.

LTS
01-28-2011, 09:46 PM
yes but NBA hasnt adjusted to 8 year olds voting so he wont make until hes a household name

dwadefan03
01-28-2011, 09:53 PM
I will destroy the nba if he doesnt make it

IamKaiserSoze
01-28-2011, 09:55 PM
sure, he's a stud. but it is a popularity contest. wait til he becomes a household name

LTBaByyy
01-28-2011, 09:56 PM
I think if he was black everybody would love him and he would have soooooo much more respect lol Seriously

And Im black, so Im not racist. Kevin Love is a beast and it seems like Im the only one that likes him more than Blake Griffin

210Don
01-28-2011, 09:57 PM
id pick timmy over love homer pick of course.
but hes played great

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 09:58 PM
my opinion probably doesn't need further explanation.

Um, yes. If he is left off, its complete bs.

Joshtd1
01-28-2011, 10:00 PM
Nope just because it will make Hawkeye mad and we could see him explode.

In all seriousness he does deserve it, he is a beast.

kgjfan243
01-28-2011, 10:11 PM
Should make it, hes putting up unreal numbers.

D Roses Bulls
01-28-2011, 10:14 PM
inflated stats in my opinion. like i said, I could show guys who played on bad teams that never amounted to a lot who had big numbers on bad teams. doesn't mean I dont think he is good, but not as good as his numbers are showing.

TheDiggler
01-28-2011, 10:24 PM
Nope just because it will make Hawkeye mad and we could see him explode.

In all seriousness he does deserve it, he is a beast.

This.

Pat Thetic
01-28-2011, 10:24 PM
inflated stats in my opinion. like i said, I could show guys who played on bad teams that never amounted to a lot who had big numbers on bad teams. doesn't mean I dont think he is good, but not as good as his numbers are showing.

Show us. I'd love to see someone who put up Kevin's numbers on a bad team.

As a T-Wolves fan, it's not garbage numbers. His numbers are generated through the offensive glass. Watch him play, he is amazing on the offensive glass; it is unreal what he does.

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 10:25 PM
Nope just because it will make Hawkeye mad and we could see him explode.

In all seriousness he does deserve it, he is a beast.

visit a Wolves GT......

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 10:27 PM
inflated stats in my opinion. like i said, I could show guys who played on bad teams that never amounted to a lot who had big numbers on bad teams. doesn't mean I dont think he is good, but not as good as his numbers are showing.

show me Love's numbers on a good or bad team. I will allow you to take it 30 years back.

D Roses Bulls
01-28-2011, 10:27 PM
Show us. I'd love to see someone who put up Kevin's numbers on a bad team.

As a T-Wolves fan, it's not garbage numbers. His numbers are generated through the offensive glass. Watch him play, he is amazing on the offensive glass; it is unreal what he does.

as a wolves fan, al jefferson doesnt ring a bell for one?

D Roses Bulls
01-28-2011, 10:28 PM
show me Love's numbers on a good or bad team. I will allow you to take it 30 years back.

:confused: when did love ever play on a good team?

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 10:28 PM
as a wolves fan, al jefferson doesnt ring a bell for one?

they are nothing alike. Not in the slightest. Do you really want to debate me on Love? Go for it.

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 10:30 PM
:confused: when did love ever play on a good team?

re-read it. Show me better numbers in any scenario. Love is putting up a statistical season for the ages.

Jewelz0376
01-28-2011, 10:32 PM
Griffin
Pau
Dirk
Westbrook
Manu
Dwill
Parker

Are 7 that should be reserves over Love...The final spot (Yao's replacement) come down to Duncan, Odom, and Love.

He's putting up big numbers, but a player on the 2nd worst team in the league shouldn't be an all star...A part of him getting the numbers he does is being on a bad team.. So I'd go with Duncan over Love to start at C

D Roses Bulls
01-28-2011, 10:32 PM
re-read it. Show me better numbers in any scenario. Love is putting up a statistical season for the ages.

I never said he wasnt a good player, but honestly, I dont think he would be putting these numbers up if he played with teammates who actually cared about winning or even someone else with as much talent as love. I mean the bulls/wolves game, love was the only one going for the rebound while everyone else from the wolves was already half way up the court to get on offense.

kgjfan243
01-28-2011, 10:32 PM
He has a double-double in almost every game this year. Even Barkley said that he was having a Moses Malone-esque season.

knightstemplar
01-28-2011, 10:33 PM
he deserves it

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 10:34 PM
I never said he wasnt a good player, but honestly, I dont think he would be putting these numbers up if he played with teammates who actually cared about winning or even someone else with as much talent as love. I mean the bulls/wolves game, love was the only one going for the rebound while everyone else from the wolves was already half way up the court to get on offense.

Per game numbers? Is that what you are speaking of? btw, rebound rate translates in any scenario, anytime. That is the one of the skills Love will shine in even if you put him next to LeBron and Dwight.

D Roses Bulls
01-28-2011, 10:34 PM
they are nothing alike. Not in the slightest. Do you really want to debate me on Love? Go for it.

jefferson wasn't averaging more rebound then love, but jefferson was at 11 a game and scoring 23 points a game, now he is averaging 16 and 8.

TO Rapz
01-28-2011, 10:36 PM
Hell yes!

D Roses Bulls
01-28-2011, 10:36 PM
Per game numbers? Is that what you are speaking of? btw, rebound rate translates in any scenario, anytime. That is the one of the skills Love will shine in even if you put him next to LeBron and Dwight.

huh? and i do think love can be a 10-11 game rebounder, but 15 a game playing along side someon else with talent or even plays hard? no i dont think he could.

D Roses Bulls
01-28-2011, 10:37 PM
now we can debate this later if you want, but the bulls/magic game is getting real good.

Bruno
01-28-2011, 10:40 PM
100%. The dude is dominating. He has the same PER as Kobe Bryant.

The only thing going against Love is his youth, and his teams record. I can't predict if the coaches will decide to leave him off for that or not. Even if he gets snubbed this year, we all know we'll be seeing Love in ever all-star game for the next ten years after this, baring injury.

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 10:43 PM
jefferson wasn't averaging more rebound then love, but jefferson was at 11 a game and scoring 23 points a game, now he is averaging 16 and 8.

Jefferson's production came in a way that stopped the offense. Love's doesn't do anything. He gets his on putbacks, in the flow, and on 3's and FT's. There is no comparison between the two in the slightest man. None. At all.

Jefferson is actually killing the Jazz this season.

Giraffes Rule
01-28-2011, 10:49 PM
Yes. Duncan, Dirk, and Love will all get in one way or another via coach voting.

mttwlsn16
01-28-2011, 10:49 PM
absolutely hands down should be an allstar

Pat Thetic
01-28-2011, 10:57 PM
Jefferson's production came in a way that stopped the offense. Love's doesn't do anything. He gets his on putbacks, in the flow, and on 3's and FT's. There is no comparison between the two in the slightest man. None. At all.

Jefferson is actually killing the Jazz this season.

Couldn't agree more. Like I said earlier, what Love does on the offensive glass is amazing. 90% of those put-backs I'd swear were impossible. The one-handed slaps, kid must have been an amazing volleyball player.

But on Al, you're right. The offense would completely stop to wait for him to make his post move. Not saying that Al isn't a wonderful on the block, but it's nice as a Wolves fan to see some mid-range jumpers. Been a while since Sam and the free-throw pull-up.

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 11:01 PM
Couldn't agree more. Like I said earlier, what Love does on the offensive glass is amazing. 90% of those put-backs I'd swear were impossible. The one-handed slaps, kid must have been an amazing volleyball player.

But on Al, you're right. The offense would completely stop to wait for him to make his post move. Not saying that Al isn't a wonderful on the block, but it's nice as a Wolves fan to see some mid-range jumpers. Been a while since Sam and the free-throw pull-up.

Love is looked at as unathletic, but his one leg balance and finger strength are off the charts. All kinds of "athletic" ability.

hugepatsfan
01-28-2011, 11:10 PM
Why is this even a question?

Lakerfrk
01-28-2011, 11:14 PM
SHOULD he? yes,

WILL he? I am not so sure unfortunately....

I would imagine Pau Gasol gets selected to start at C... so then the other big man to pick.. Dirk Nowitzki, Blake Griffin, Tim Duncan (could be a center), Andrew Bynum (he shouldnt make it, but if Duncan is a F, then he will)..

Like I said, Love SHOULD make it.. but things sometimes work out strangely....

kblo247
01-28-2011, 11:20 PM
No. His numbers justify it but no.
-------

Facts:

No player from the worst team in their conference has been selected to the all star team by the coaches besides Big Z because of the fact that the East was required to have a C.

Al Jefferson, Monta Ellis, and Zach Randolph in Portland have all been kept off the team because of losing records.
-------

The other thing is out west you have so many others at his pot who are deserving and winning candidates that play better defense as well.

Duncan - numbers are down but he is the defensive backbone to his team and is sacrificing his numbers to help his team have the best record. He should even qualify as a center

Gasol - LA's second best big man for this season as a whole. He has the numbers, wins, name, and status to get the nod. He also is or should be C eligible

Odom - LA's best big man this year. He has been the second best player on the team all year long while Pau went from first to third after the first month and only is recently getting out of a funk. Near the top of the league in FG%, shooting the 3 well, better defensive rating, and basically averages a double double in either role as a starter or reserve and his scoring this year stops him from being ignored.

Aldridge - Portland would be dead in the water without him

Blake - Better record than Love, all be it a losing one. He has a great amount of double doubles, highlight reel material, and is producing numbers that haven't been seen since a young Shaq.

Randolph - The best big in Memphis and he has really taken up the slack for Marc who is sandbagging it. His team has a better record and he too is a stat freak.

Dirk - This guy is in MVP talk.
---

You can't honestly say all those guys don't have a case over Love in his position when they are winning and the only other instance that a player from the last place team in their conference was chosen was almost a decade ago because of roster specifics. You can say his numbers merit the nod, which I will agree with but you would be doing a disservice to all those guys I mentioned to the point that it is just wrong.

beasted86
01-28-2011, 11:28 PM
No.
See: Al Jefferson 2008-2009.

23 PPG 11 REB 2 BLK, 1.6 AST, 50% 37 MIN. (Team Record: 17-34 @ break)
vs.
21 PPG 16 REB 0 BLK, 2.6 AST, 47% 37 MIN. (Team Record: 10-35 b4 break)

You really telling me the 5 extra rebounds a game in a MUCH higher pace, and lowered stats in PPG, FG%, and BLK categories, and much worse record warrants an All-star appearance?

No double standards. Simple. No double standards.

D Roses Bulls
01-28-2011, 11:29 PM
No.
See: Al Jefferson 2008-2009.

23 PPG 11 REB 2 BLK, 1.6 AST, 50% 37 MIN. (Team Record: 17-34 @ break)
vs.
21 PPG 16 REB 0 BLK, 2.6 AST, 47% 37 MIN. (Team Record: 10-35 b4 break)

You really telling me the 5 extra rebounds a game in a MUCH higher pace, and lowered stats in PPG, FG%, and BLK categories, and much worse record warrants an All-star appearance?

No double standards. Simple. No double standards.

you and I agree for once.

Jewelz0376
01-28-2011, 11:31 PM
No. His numbers justify it but no.
-------

Facts:

No player from the worst team in their conference has been selected to the all star team by the coaches besides Big Z because of the fact that the East was required to have a C.

Al Jefferson, Monta Ellis, and Zach Randolph in Portland have all been kept off the team because of losing records.
-------

The other thing is out west you have so many others at his pot who are deserving and winning candidates that play better defense as well.

Duncan - numbers are down but he is the defensive backbone to his team and is sacrificing his numbers to help his team have the best record. He should even qualify as a center

Gasol - LA's second best big man for this season as a whole. He has the numbers, wins, name, and status to get the nod. He also is or should be C eligible

Odom - LA's best big man this year. He has been the second best player on the team all year long while Pau went from first to third after the first month and only is recently getting out of a funk. Near the top of the league in FG%, shooting the 3 well, better defensive rating, and basically averages a double double in either role as a starter or reserve and his scoring this year stops him from being ignored.

Aldridge - Portland would be dead in the water without him

Blake - Better record than Love, all be it a losing one. He has a great amount of double doubles, highlight reel material, and is producing numbers that haven't been seen since a young Shaq.

Randolph - The best big in Memphis and he has really taken up the slack for Marc who is sandbagging it. His team has a better record and he too is a stat freak.

Dirk - This guy is in MVP talk.
---

You can't honestly say all those guys don't have a case over Love in his position when they are winning and the only other instance that a player from the last place team in their conference was chosen was almost a decade ago because of roster specifics. You can say his numbers merit the nod, which I will agree with but you would be doing a disservice to all those guys I mentioned to the point that it is just wrong.

I agree with this post 100%... I think some people are saying Love should be an allstar without actually thinking of the players he should get in over... Love is having a great season, but his great season isn't making an impact in the win column...

tbone2171
01-28-2011, 11:31 PM
inflated stats in my opinion. like i said, I could show guys who played on bad teams that never amounted to a lot who had big numbers on bad teams. doesn't mean I dont think he is good, but not as good as his numbers are showing.

Kinda like joakim noah

beasted86
01-28-2011, 11:31 PM
Jefferson's production came in a way that stopped the offense. Love's doesn't do anything. He gets his on putbacks, in the flow, and on 3's and FT's. There is no comparison between the two in the slightest man. None. At all.

Jefferson is actually killing the Jazz this season.

Yet the team record reflected them on pace to win WAAAY more than the Wolves currently are before the all-star break?

Who was Jefferson's 2nd best player in 08? Randy Foye?
What's that guy doing now?

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 11:38 PM
I will revisit this thread tomorrow. Replies coming. night

netsgiantsyanks
01-28-2011, 11:43 PM
hell yeah. but of course hes gonna get snubbed.

Chi StateOfMind
01-28-2011, 11:49 PM
hell yea he should hes a monster

Mudvayne91
01-28-2011, 11:54 PM
No question

goose15
01-29-2011, 12:11 AM
reminds me of David Lee last year a double double machine on a bad team..

Should Love make it?? Yes

Will Love make it?? Yes

Confusious
01-29-2011, 12:21 AM
Good god yes he should.

superkegger
01-29-2011, 01:42 AM
No.
See: Al Jefferson 2008-2009.

23 PPG 11 REB 2 BLK, 1.6 AST, 50% 37 MIN. (Team Record: 17-34 @ break)
vs.
21 PPG 16 REB 0 BLK, 2.6 AST, 47% 37 MIN. (Team Record: 10-35 b4 break)

You really telling me the 5 extra rebounds a game in a MUCH higher pace, and lowered stats in PPG, FG%, and BLK categories, and much worse record warrants an All-star appearance?

No double standards. Simple. No double standards.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=loveke01&y1=2011&p2=jeffeal01&y2=2009

A more complete look at their side by side numbers.

Anyway, I just wanted to highlight a few things.

Kevin Love is:
7th in the NBA in 3pt %
10th in free throws made
14th in free throws attempted
13th in free throw %
1st in offensive rebounds
1st in defensive rebounds
1st in total rebounds
1st in rebounds per game
16th in points per game
5th in PER
2nd in Offensive and Defensive rebound %
1st in overall rebound %
7th in the offensive rating
2nd in offensive win shares
4th in total win shares

Pretty impressive stuff. Especially the 3pt shooting and foul shooting, and the fact that he's so efficient.

kntresistheheat
01-29-2011, 01:46 AM
He better make it!!

beasted86
01-29-2011, 01:56 AM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=loveke01&y1=2011&p2=jeffeal01&y2=2009

A more complete look at their side by side numbers.

Anyway, I just wanted to highlight a few things.

Kevin Love is:
7th in the NBA in 3pt %
10th in free throws made
14th in free throws attempted
13th in free throw %
1st in offensive rebounds
1st in defensive rebounds
1st in total rebounds
1st in rebounds per game
16th in points per game
5th in PER
2nd in Offensive and Defensive rebound %
1st in overall rebound %
7th in the offensive rating
2nd in offensive win shares
4th in total win shares

Pretty impressive stuff. Especially the 3pt shooting and foul shooting, and the fact that he's so efficient.

What is all of that supposed to mean?

Fact remains the only number that's important is 17-35 vs. 10-36 team records before all-star break... and the Wolves have a lot more losing to do between now and Feb. 16th.

Randy Foye vs. Michael Beasley?

Enough said... the fact is wins is what is reliant on getting voted into the All-star game by the coaches.

They very well might vote in Love, but if they do, I call double standards on Al Jefferson 2 years ago. He should have got in if that was the case.

superkegger
01-29-2011, 02:05 AM
What is all of that supposed to mean?

Fact remains the only number that's important is 17-35 vs. 10-36 team records before all-star break... and the Wolves have a lot more losing to do between now and Feb. 16th.

Randy Foye vs. Michael Beasley?

Enough said... the fact is wins is what is reliant on getting voted into the All-star game by the coaches.

They very well might vote in Love, but if they do, I call double standards on Al Jefferson 2 years ago. He should have got in if that was the case.

It shows he's playing great basketball despite the fact that the rest of the team isn't playing at a very high level.

And there were a lot of Big Al supporters who thought it was nuts that David West made it over him.
But Al Jefferson wouldn't have played in the ASG that year anyway since he got hurt before the all star break.

JayTee1981
01-29-2011, 02:25 AM
Kevin Love should be in the ASG

cargobox
01-29-2011, 02:44 AM
Yes, Duncan should just go away. I'm sorry Spur fans.

Mplsman
01-29-2011, 03:25 AM
No doubt.

thekmp211
01-29-2011, 04:46 AM
What is all of that supposed to mean?

Fact remains the only number that's important is 17-35 vs. 10-36 team records before all-star break... and the Wolves have a lot more losing to do between now and Feb. 16th.

Randy Foye vs. Michael Beasley?

Enough said... the fact is wins is what is reliant on getting voted into the All-star game by the coaches.

They very well might vote in Love, but if they do, I call double standards on Al Jefferson 2 years ago. He should have got in if that was the case.

and the third and fourth and fifth and sixth and seven guys? neither team is built to win. one, or two, guys isnt going to change that.

Hawkeye15
01-29-2011, 12:27 PM
What is all of that supposed to mean?

Fact remains the only number that's important is 17-35 vs. 10-36 team records before all-star break... and the Wolves have a lot more losing to do between now and Feb. 16th.

Randy Foye vs. Michael Beasley?

Enough said... the fact is wins is what is reliant on getting voted into the All-star game by the coaches.

They very well might vote in Love, but if they do, I call double standards on Al Jefferson 2 years ago. He should have got in if that was the case.


the teams aren't even similar dude. The players aren't. Love and Jefferson are not on the same level. You have no clue what you are talking about here.

I ask again, why push it, when you know I understand stats as well as you, and I actually watch 80 Wolves games a year. If you don't think a player from a bad team should make it, fine. But don't try and act as if you understand the Wolves teams over the past few years.

Fact is, nobody in history, on a good, average, or bad team, has done what Love is doing statistically, ALL AROUND, this season. He is an all star.

knicksfan42
01-29-2011, 01:54 PM
No. His numbers justify it but no.
-------

Facts:

No player from the worst team in their conference has been selected to the all star team by the coaches besides Big Z because of the fact that the East was required to have a C.

Al Jefferson, Monta Ellis, and Zach Randolph in Portland have all been kept off the team because of losing records.
-------

The other thing is out west you have so many others at his pot who are deserving and winning candidates that play better defense as well.

Duncan - numbers are down but he is the defensive backbone to his team and is sacrificing his numbers to help his team have the best record. He should even qualify as a center

Gasol - LA's second best big man for this season as a whole. He has the numbers, wins, name, and status to get the nod. He also is or should be C eligible

Odom - LA's best big man this year. He has been the second best player on the team all year long while Pau went from first to third after the first month and only is recently getting out of a funk. Near the top of the league in FG%, shooting the 3 well, better defensive rating, and basically averages a double double in either role as a starter or reserve and his scoring this year stops him from being ignored.

Aldridge - Portland would be dead in the water without him

Blake - Better record than Love, all be it a losing one. He has a great amount of double doubles, highlight reel material, and is producing numbers that haven't been seen since a young Shaq.

Randolph - The best big in Memphis and he has really taken up the slack for Marc who is sandbagging it. His team has a better record and he too is a stat freak.

Dirk - This guy is in MVP talk.
---

You can't honestly say all those guys don't have a case over Love in his position when they are winning and the only other instance that a player from the last place team in their conference was chosen was almost a decade ago because of roster specifics. You can say his numbers merit the nod, which I will agree with but you would be doing a disservice to all those guys I mentioned to the point that it is just wrong.

You make a good point.

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 01:58 PM
Anyone who compares Al Jefferson to Kevin Love OBVIOUSLY didn't watch them play while in Minny. OBVIOUSLY!!!!

To make a comparison between a guy who seemed to half ***ed it on most nights vs a guy who give his all his everything and plays as if he's the 12th man on the bench while being the star player is utterly ridiculous.

What's even more foolish is how many people are saying that as a result of his team's record he should not be an All-Star. Well hear what you guys should do. Make a magic wand wave it over the Wolves get Rubio in the NBA, Flynn healthy, Corey Brewer start playing up to his potential, get Beasley to start playing some D, hire Mike Fratello as the head coach etc etc etc and see what their record will be like.

Don't crucify Love because of his TEAM's inadequacies he doesn't have their where they are THE TEAM does.

He is having a season unlike any ever seen in the history of the game, breaking records while doing it and you guys are telling me he doesn't deserve to be an all star because of his team being on of the worst in the league, utter :bs:

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 02:01 PM
the teams aren't even similar dude. The players aren't. Love and Jefferson are not on the same level. You have no clue what you are talking about here.

I ask again, why push it, when you know I understand stats as well as you, and I actually watch 80 Wolves games a year. If you don't think a player from a bad team should make it, fine. But don't try and act as if you understand the Wolves teams over the past few years.

Fact is, nobody in history, on a good, average, or bad team, has done what Love is doing statistically, ALL AROUND, this season. He is an all star.

Fact!!!!!!

What this guy is accomplishing is AMAZING to say the least, he is not playing against D leaguers, he is playing against the BEST basketballers in the world and is still getting 21,16 and over 40% from the stroke that is simply AMAZING.

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 02:23 PM
No. His numbers justify it but no.
-------

Sorry to be blunt but that makes no sense IMO. The NBA has never seen a season such as this and you are saying that despite his record setting numbers he doesn't deserve to be in the ASG. :confused:


Facts:

No player from the worst team in their conference has been selected to the all star team by the coaches besides Big Z because of the fact that the East was required to have a C.


Facts

No player in the history of the NBA who has had a 20 and 15 season (despite team record) has ever been snubbed from All Star Selection.

Facts

No player in NBA history has ever averaged 20, 15 and over 40% from the 3.

Facts

Kevin Love is one player and his supporting cast is atrocious he can't help who he plays along side he is ONE MAN



Al Jefferson, Monta Ellis, and Zach Randolph in Portland have all been kept off the team because of losing records.

None of these 3 had or are having a season that is comparable to Love's. FACTS none of these players were anywhere near as efficient as Kevin Love is this season.
-------

The other thing is out west you have so many others at his pot who are deserving and winning candidates that play better defense as well.


Duncan - numbers are down but he is the defensive backbone to his team and is sacrificing his numbers to help his team have the best record. He should even qualify as a center

He IS a C. And should be in the ASG ahead of Bynum or Nene as a C.


Gasol - LA's second best big man for this season as a whole. He has the numbers, wins, name, and status to get the nod. He also is or should be C eligible

He should get a spot as the starting C of the ASG


Odom - LA's best big man this year. He has been the second best player on the team all year long while Pau went from first to third after the first month and only is recently getting out of a funk. Near the top of the league in FG%, shooting the 3 well, better defensive rating, and basically averages a double double in either role as a starter or reserve and his scoring this year stops him from being ignored.

His all round impact is undeniable and is extremely valuable to any team in which he plays but place him on that Wolves team with that supporting cast and they would in all likeliness not be a better team. If he makes it it will be as a replacement more so than a reserve. He deserves a spot but not over Kevin Love, because of his supporting cast and his role on the lakers he is allowed to be more effective if he had a more prominent role in all likeliness he wouldn't be receiving much consideration because he may not have been as efficient (History has proven this to us in the case of Lamar Odom)

Oh and on the topic of DTRG if you use that stat to stat your case for one player being better defensively than another then you may be sadly mistaken. LO is leaps and bounds a better defender than Love and Griffin but DTRG is not the correct stat to use. You also say that Lamar could also get a dbl dbl whether playing off the bench or starting wellllllll Kevin Love can and has done that as well as a matter of a fact he is running away with the dbl dbl lead this season. A pillar of consistency.


Aldridge - Portland would be dead in the water without him

Where would Minny be with him?

He is no where near as effecient or valuable as Kevin Love is, while he is a HUGE reason for Portland's success he's just as much valuable to that team as Andre Miller, Marcus Camby (to bad he's out) and Nate McMillan to name a few. Earlier in the season he didn't show what he has been showing of late and it still isn't enough to put on par with Love.



Blake - Better record than Love, all be it a losing one. He has a great amount of double doubles, highlight reel material, and is producing numbers that haven't been seen since a young Shaq.

Better record because he has a better supporting cast. He deserves to be in there but his numbers still aren't as great as Love's don't allow yourself to get confused with that.


Randolph - The best big in Memphis and he has really taken up the slack for Marc who is sandbagging it. His team has a better record and he too is a stat freak.

Again great numbers and has improved vastly to become a more effective efficient player on the offensive end. STILL isn't comparable to Love, better record AGAIN because of a veteran core and very good supporting cast. No surprise they are playing this well since Gay and Conley are having some of their best season's since coming into the league.


Dirk - This guy is in MVP talk.

And yet not even the great Dirk has been able to shoot as high a percentage as Love from the arc. Of course he deserves to be there, no one is debating that.
---


You can't honestly say all those guys don't have a case over Love in his position when they are winning and the only other instance that a player from the last place team in their conference was chosen was almost a decade ago because of roster specifics. You can say his numbers merit the nod, which I will agree with but you would be doing a disservice to all those guys I mentioned to the point that it is just wrong.

You'd really do a disservice to Randolph, Odom and Aldridge because they are playing on better teams?

How about you'd be doing a disservice to Kevin Love, the fans, and the HISTORY of the League by not including him when history has shown that any player mirroring his sort of performance has NEVER been excluded from the game.

Guess last season there was a couple season's, like Aldridge's, Randolph's and Odom's in all likeliness next year we'll see it as well and the year after that and after that, the NBA has NEVER seen a season such as Kevin Love's. That in itself has the man as a All Star.

AIRMAR72
01-29-2011, 02:38 PM
he got my vote hes a throwback player plays hard every nite

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 02:53 PM
I agree with this post 100%... I think some people are saying Love should be an allstar without actually thinking of the players he should get in over... Love is having a great season, but his great season isn't making an impact in the win column...

Great

Kevin love is 4th in the league in Win Shares 4th ahead of all other forwards in the West not name Pau Gasol.

I am not a 100% believer in Win Shares so I'll go this way, of the players he listed which of them not named Tim, Pau or Dirk would lead that Minny team to a considerably better record? Which of those said players have such a great impact to take a supporting cast such as Minny's with all the youth and injuries that they have had to deal with and a coach who has seem to thrown his system out the window.

Which of those said players have such an impact to make the Minnesota Timberwolves a better team?

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 02:55 PM
No.
See: Al Jefferson 2008-2009.

23 PPG 11 REB 2 BLK, 1.6 AST, 50% 37 MIN. (Team Record: 17-34 @ break)
vs.
21 PPG 16 REB 0 BLK, 2.6 AST, 47% 37 MIN. (Team Record: 10-35 b4 break)

You really telling me the 5 extra rebounds a game in a MUCH higher pace, and lowered stats in PPG, FG%, and BLK categories, and much worse record warrants an All-star appearance?

No double standards. Simple. No double standards.

If that is all you take into consideration when comparing stats and being so biased I must say there is no reason in even debating with you on this topic.

Do you remember that Al Jefferson also suffered an injury before the ASG thus negating any chance of him even being considered for the game?

Khalifa21
01-29-2011, 03:07 PM
My boy Swashcuff has pretty much owned this thread... Bottom line is, yes, Love absolutely deserves it.

chipurmunki
01-29-2011, 03:11 PM
congrats for making the stupidest thread on psd
:facepalm::clap::facepalm:

mttwlsn16
01-29-2011, 03:20 PM
Yes, Duncan should just go away. I'm sorry Spur fans.

lol...this ^ duncan is too boring. step aside

4THand26
01-29-2011, 03:39 PM
I say no. I'd take Dirk, West, and Griffin all before Love. Love just doesn't play on a good enough team to make it. 2 road wins on the year, and those coming against the cavs and kings. No thanks

4THand26
01-29-2011, 03:50 PM
Show us. I'd love to see someone who put up Kevin's numbers on a bad team.

As a T-Wolves fan, it's not garbage numbers. His numbers are generated through the offensive glass. Watch him play, he is amazing on the offensive glass; it is unreal what he does.

We aren't saying he isn't really good, but if you put him on a good team he will not be putting up 22 and 15. I think for a good team he is a 18-10 or 11 guy. I'm not comparing him to Jefferson look how Jefferson's numbers dropped since going to a good team. Love might be the only good player on the Wolves team so he is going to be able to hog all the numbers. You can maybe count Beasley. With the game on the line would you want Love with the ball over Dirk or West? No you don't.

topdog
01-29-2011, 03:54 PM
I love how people say it's just good numbers on a bad team when no one else has put up the stats he has ever. Period.

As for Jefferson, two years ago he did deserve a spot over David West and Shaq. That year.

topdog
01-29-2011, 03:57 PM
We aren't saying he isn't really good, but if you put him on a good team he will not be putting up 22 and 15. I think for a good team he is a 18-10 or 11 guy. I'm not comparing him to Jefferson look how Jefferson's numbers dropped since going to a good team. Love might be the only good player on the Wolves team so he is going to be able to hog all the numbers. You can maybe count Beasley. With the game on the line would you want Love with the ball over Dirk or West? No you don't.

18 and 11 wouldn't be all-star worthy? On top of that you might assume his 40% 3pt average goes up because there are other guys drawing attention. Oh and on a good team Love probably gets fouls actually called in the 4th quarter when he has 3 guys hacking him in the post.

But wait, there's more: on a good team, Love actually has guys finishing off his passes so he also becomes a 5AST per game guy.

Hustlenomics
01-29-2011, 03:59 PM
Kevin Love would be a great third option , he can't carry a team on his own

Hunter48MVP
01-29-2011, 04:03 PM
Kevin Love and Blake Griffin will be all star this year. Sadly I think Dirk will not make it.

Gators123
01-29-2011, 04:50 PM
Of course he should

Hawkeye15
01-29-2011, 05:10 PM
We aren't saying he isn't really good, but if you put him on a good team he will not be putting up 22 and 15. I think for a good team he is a 18-10 or 11 guy. I'm not comparing him to Jefferson look how Jefferson's numbers dropped since going to a good team. Love might be the only good player on the Wolves team so he is going to be able to hog all the numbers. You can maybe count Beasley. With the game on the line would you want Love with the ball over Dirk or West? No you don't.

they why in the history of basketball, with allllllllllllllllllllllll the bad teams over the years, has nobody done what he is doing then?
And Love could be next to Dwight and LeBron and still get more than 10 rebounds per night. Would his per game scoring go down on a great team? Yep. EVERYONE'S does. Would his efficiency skyrocket? Another yeppers.

No matter how you cut it, Love's numbers this season can not be denied as historical. Nobody has ever gone for 21/15 at the 3pt and FT rates he hits. It has never happened. You don't keep that type of season out of the all star game.

David West? Seriously?

*Silver&Black*
01-29-2011, 05:31 PM
inflated stats in my opinion. like i said, I could show guys who played on bad teams that never amounted to a lot who had big numbers on bad teams. doesn't mean I dont think he is good, but not as good as his numbers are showing.

I never understood this logic. If a player was on a bad team, wouldn't the other team focus more on that 1 person since the rest of the team is bad? If he was on the Celtics he would have less double teams, etc. So "Inflated stats" is poop. Monta and Love should be on the All-star team.

Mplsman
01-29-2011, 05:32 PM
they why in the history of basketball, with allllllllllllllllllllllll the bad teams over the years, has nobody done what he is doing then?
And Love could be next to Dwight and LeBron and still get more than 10 rebounds per night. Would his per game scoring go down on a great team? Yep. EVERYONE'S does. Would his efficiency skyrocket? Another yeppers.

No matter how you cut it, Love's numbers this season can not be denied as historical. Nobody has ever gone for 21/15 at the 3pt and FT rates he hits. It has never happened. You don't keep that type of season out of the all star game.

David West? Seriously?

Hahaha, exactly. Nice Post Hawk.

cambovenzi
01-29-2011, 05:39 PM
So youd put him unquestionably in ahead of better players because of a per game statline?
Hes a great rebounder on an undersized bad team, and a decent scorer on a bad team with few other options. He isnt that great of an athlete or overall player.

D-Will4Prez
01-29-2011, 05:42 PM
Should the best PF in the game right now be an all-star?

Umm duh?

Algmuskrats
01-29-2011, 05:45 PM
Without a question, YES!!!

Jewelz0376
01-29-2011, 06:21 PM
Great

Kevin love is 4th in the league in Win Shares 4th ahead of all other forwards in the West not name Pau Gasol.

I am not a 100% believer in Win Shares so I'll go this way, of the players he listed which of them not named Tim, Pau or Dirk would lead that Minny team to a considerably better record? Which of those said players have such a great impact to take a supporting cast such as Minny's with all the youth and injuries that they have had to deal with and a coach who has seem to thrown his system out the window.

Which of those said players have such an impact to make the Minnesota Timberwolves a better team?

None of them besides the ones you mentioned...but then again I don't have any of those other bigs making the all star team..Except for Griffin who is having an amazing season just like Love, he has actually lead that team to more wins and actually had some talking playoffs..

Griffin
Pau
Dirk
Westbrook
Manu
Dwill
Parker
Duncan

Those were my reserves...Look I can understand those that think Love should be on it...but I can't put a player who's on the 2nd worse team in the league in the all star game (unless he gets in because of injuries).. Just like I don't think a player should win mvp unless he's top 3 in his conference...

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 09:03 PM
None of them besides the ones you mentioned...but then again I don't have any of those other bigs making the all star team..Except for Griffin who is having an amazing season just like Love, he has actually lead that team to more wins and actually had some talking playoffs..

Griffin
Pau
Dirk
Westbrook
Manu
Dwill
Parker
Duncan

Those were my reserves...Look I can understand those that think Love should be on it...but I can't put a player who's on the 2nd worse team in the league in the all star game (unless he gets in because of injuries).. Just like I don't think a player should win mvp unless he's top 3 in his conference...

There's YOUR problem right there it's your opinion but what we who are defending Love are using a historical reference in stating the reason as to why he not only should but IS going to deserve a spot on the Western All Star team.

No player in the history of the league good, average and ESPECIALLY BAD team has ever been able to do exactly what Kevin Love is able to do. That in itself is an achievement regardless.

All Star Game accolades should not and do not be held as seriously as the Most Valuable Player award they are NOT interrelated. Last season Allen Iverson made the ASG while barely even playing at all. Tracy McGrady didn't play a game and was almost voted as a starter now look at Yao Ming and Andrew Bynum of this season, they could have possibly been/be All Stars and have done NOTHING deserving of it. You cannot hold ASG appearances in the same regard as MVP.

Want to know why Jason Kidd was taken over Monta Ellis last season?

Plain and simple he was more efficient, effective and valuable than Ellis was, that more so than team record made him an All Star. This season Love is more deserving than a host of other because of the fact has been more efficient, effective AND valuable.

When the league iron out all the kinks Pau will start at C and Love will take his place as a reserve. Andrew Bynum in NO WAY deserves to be an All Star and everyone who has any semblance of any form of a brain will agree.

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 09:07 PM
I never understood this logic. If a player was on a bad team, wouldn't the other team focus more on that 1 person since the rest of the team is bad? If he was on the Celtics he would have less double teams, etc. So "Inflated stats" is poop. Monta and Love should be on the All-star team.

Someone mentioned double standards earlier this is a CLASSIC double standard. When speaking of Rajon Rondo those very same Bulls fans say stuff like "he is benefiting from the players around him and without them he'd be a below average player", so then why in a case such as this he suddenly becomes a player with inflated stats.

Makes absolutely ZERO sense.

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 09:18 PM
I pose this question to everyone who is against Love being an All Star and say his stats are "inflated".

How can a player who's stats are "inflated" be the 7th most efficient player in the entire NBA?

Could you name ONE player in the history of the NBA who has been THIS efficient offensively and yet still have "inflated" stats?

I already know no one is going to reply to this post but hey just going to prove my point even more.

AddiX
01-29-2011, 09:21 PM
Keep defending Him Minny Fans, it won't be to long until he leaves.

No, hes not an all star. As a Knick fan I remember when Curry was putting up 20-10 and people said he should be an all star.

No, you don't get on the team by stuffing stats on a bad team. Because if your not winning games, that's all your doing, stuffing stats.

thesparky33
01-29-2011, 09:23 PM
Did someone say that nobody has been an all-star while being on the worst team in their conference?

Wasn't Tracy McGrady an all-star in 2003-04? And didn't the Magic have the worst record in the league that year? Or am I missing something?

Hawkeye15
01-29-2011, 09:25 PM
Keep defending Him Minny Fans, it won't be to long until he leaves.

No, hes not an all star. As a Knick fan I remember when Curry was putting up 20-10 and people said he should be an all star.

No, you don't get on the team by stuffing stats on a bad team. Because if your not winning games, that's all your doing, stuffing stats.

Minny fans? Look at the votes dawg. Wake up.

So Love is leaving Minnesota? mmkay

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 09:28 PM
What is all of that supposed to mean?

Fact remains the only number that's important is 17-35 vs. 10-36 team records before all-star break... and the Wolves have a lot more losing to do between now and Feb. 16th.

Randy Foye vs. Michael Beasley?

Enough said... the fact is wins is what is reliant on getting voted into the All-star game by the coaches.

They very well might vote in Love, but if they do, I call double standards on Al Jefferson 2 years ago. He should have got in if that was the case.

Right there is where I stopped taking you seriously.

With all the thousands of players in the 64 years (32 years if we take the 3 point shooting into account) in the history of the NBA there has NEVER been a player to rank so highly all of those categories.

So yeah that's what that is suppose to mean. If you still don't know I suggest you start following a different sport because you don't truly appreciate the history of this one.

cambovenzi
01-29-2011, 09:30 PM
Right there is where I stopped taking you seriously.

With all the thousands of players in the 64 years (32 years if we take the 3 point shooting into account) in the history of the NBA there has NEVER been a player to rank so highly all of those categories.

So yeah that's what that is suppose to mean. If you still don't know I suggest you start following a different sport because you don't truly appreciate the history of this one.

That is cool and all but does it make him better than a guy that would get in ahead of him like Blake Griffin? no.

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 09:31 PM
Keep defending Him Minny Fans, it won't be to long until he leaves.

No, hes not an all star. As a Knick fan I remember when Curry was putting up 20-10 and people said he should be an all star.

No, you don't get on the team by stuffing stats on a bad team. Because if your not winning games, that's all your doing, stuffing stats.

Imma keep defending him and Imma Love him on my 76ers.

If that is what you are going to bring to the table you have no place in this discussion.

flii27kiid
01-29-2011, 09:33 PM
I would say hell yeah but then you gonna have tO consider such as players like rudy qay z-bo monta ellis blake g danny g and etc but should he start over lamarcus aldrige or even al jefferson well on my opinion i dont think so all those players putin qreat numbers on a losin teams its not the same as players putin solid numbers on a winninq teams


Thats
My opinion

Bulls_fan90
01-29-2011, 09:37 PM
A team with a 10-34 record does not deserve an All-Star.

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 09:38 PM
That is cool and all but does it make him better than a guy that would get in ahead of him like Blake Griffin? no.

As of this very post I have 3,299 posts on PSD. Feel free to go through every single one of them if you please and see if I at ever time have ever said that he should be in ahead of Blake Griffin.

He deserves to be there ahead Zach Randolph, Lamarcus Aldridge, David West, Andrew Bynum and Lamar Odom. Strong cases could also be made that he should also be there ahead of Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki but I personally don't agree with that so I will not attempt to make such a case.

And given the fact that you said that what I said was "cool" I'd take it that you yourself don't have a thorough appreciation not only for what Love is able to accomplish but for the history of the NBA as a whole.

beasted86
01-29-2011, 09:50 PM
It shows he's playing great basketball despite the fact that the rest of the team isn't playing at a very high level.

And there were a lot of Big Al supporters who thought it was nuts that David West made it over him.
But Al Jefferson wouldn't have played in the ASG that year anyway since he got hurt before the all star break.

He got injured the last game before the break.

All-star reserves are mentioned a while before that last game.

Jewelz0376
01-29-2011, 09:52 PM
There's YOUR problem right there it's your opinion but what we who are defending Love are using a historical reference in stating the reason as to why he not only should but IS going to deserve a spot on the Western All Star team.

No player in the history of the league good, average and ESPECIALLY BAD team has ever been able to do exactly what Kevin Love is able to do. That in itself is an achievement regardless.

All Star Game accolades should not and do not be held as seriously as the Most Valuable Player award they are NOT interrelated. Last season Allen Iverson made the ASG while barely even playing at all. Tracy McGrady didn't play a game and was almost voted as a starter now look at Yao Ming and Andrew Bynum of this season, they could have possibly been/be All Stars and have done NOTHING deserving of it. You cannot hold ASG appearances in the same regard as MVP.

Want to know why Jason Kidd was taken over Monta Ellis last season?

Plain and simple he was more efficient, effective and valuable than Ellis was, that more so than team record made him an All Star. This season Love is more deserving than a host of other because of the fact has been more efficient, effective AND valuable.

When the league iron out all the kinks Pau will start at C and Love will take his place as a reserve. Andrew Bynum in NO WAY deserves to be an All Star and everyone who has any semblance of any form of a brain will agree.

Nowhere in my post did I say MVP is on the same level as an all star..come on who would really think that...I was only giving another example of an achievement where team success should be taken into consideration..

Love should not be an all star over any of the players I mentioned..not on a 10 win team...

cambovenzi
01-29-2011, 09:54 PM
Its a very trivial "historical" accomplishment on a horrible team.
We arent going to tell stories to our kids about that time Kevin Love was the first player to have had 21/15 season with 45% shooting and wearing an earring on thursday away games, and did the hula dance during halftime on the Twolves.
Simply jacking up shots and grabbing a ton of boards on a godawful team doesn't make you better than some of the leagues best players.

The other guys' PPG and RPG are not as impressive because there are very talented and prominent players around them taking up shots and rebounds from them.
It doesnt make them any less talented.

If you are conceding Pau, Dirk, Duncan and Griffin, that means Love is very borderline.

On NBA.com they have an article up with Love being the 1st man out at the forward position.

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 09:55 PM
Nowhere in my post did I say MVP is on the same level as an all star..come on who would really think that...I was only giving another example of an achievement where team success should be taken into consideration..

Love should not be an all star over any of the players I mentioned..not on a 10 win team...

I agree it should be considered.

But guess what it should and IS used as a tie breaker.

If one player is having a considerably better season than others mentioned it will NOT be used.

beasted86
01-29-2011, 09:55 PM
Anyone who compares Al Jefferson to Kevin Love OBVIOUSLY didn't watch them play while in Minny. OBVIOUSLY!!!!

To make a comparison between a guy who seemed to half ***ed it on most nights vs a guy who give his all his everything and plays as if he's the 12th man on the bench while being the star player is utterly ridiculous.

What's even more foolish is how many people are saying that as a result of his team's record he should not be an All-Star. Well hear what you guys should do. Make a magic wand wave it over the Wolves get Rubio in the NBA, Flynn healthy, Corey Brewer start playing up to his potential, get Beasley to start playing some D, hire Mike Fratello as the head coach etc etc etc and see what their record will be like.

Don't crucify Love because of his TEAM's inadequacies he doesn't have their where they are THE TEAM does.

He is having a season unlike any ever seen in the history of the game, breaking records while doing it and you guys are telling me he doesn't deserve to be an all star because of his team being on of the worst in the league, utter :bs:


the teams aren't even similar dude. The players aren't. Love and Jefferson are not on the same level. You have no clue what you are talking about here.

I ask again, why push it, when you know I understand stats as well as you, and I actually watch 80 Wolves games a year. If you don't think a player from a bad team should make it, fine. But don't try and act as if you understand the Wolves teams over the past few years.

Fact is, nobody in history, on a good, average, or bad team, has done what Love is doing statistically, ALL AROUND, this season. He is an all star.

All I would love is to hear your two individual assessments of the talent and coaching differences between the 2008-2009 Timberwolves roster, and the 2010-2011 Timberwolves roster.

Which team had more talent offensively and defensively, and which team had better coaching. Whether you like it or not, the stats of Jefferson and Love are similar. They were both putting up "all-star numbers", but one team had 70% more wins than the other to this point though.

And Hawkeye, what is Love doing this year that hasn't been done in NBA history. Please explain.

AddiX
01-29-2011, 09:56 PM
Minny fans? Look at the votes dawg. Wake up.

So Love is leaving Minnesota? mmkay

Sorry dawg but PSD votes don't mean much to me. No one is denying his stats, but when your putting up stats on a bad team it doesn't mean anything.

No offense, but if you haven't noticed, the only players you guys get are the players no one else wants. When it's his time to leave, the only thing keeping him in Minny is a ridiculous contract. Probably a Max or something close to it.

And considering you guys are financially among the worst in the league, those contracts aren't easy for you to give out, and it's not going to be easy to man a team that can actually do damage in the playoffs.

You know this, I know this, and Love knows this.

nwilder
01-29-2011, 09:56 PM
If Love doesn't make it to the allstar game this year then he will be the biggest snub of recent history. He's been putting up UNPRECEDENTED numbers. When was the last time someone put 16/22?

iliketurtles24
01-29-2011, 09:58 PM
he should make it

Jewelz0376
01-29-2011, 09:59 PM
I agree it should be considered.

But guess what it should and IS used as a tie breaker.

If one player is having a considerably better season than others mentioned it will NOT be used.

Being on a winning team is one of the most important factors not a tie breaker....the fact that its being debated on if Love should be an all star proves that.

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 10:06 PM
All I would love is to hear your two individual assessments of the talent and coaching differences between the 2008-2009 Timberwolves roster, and the 2010-2011 Timberwolves roster.

Which team had more talent offensively and defensively, and which team had better coaching. Whether you like it or not, the stats of Jefferson and Love are similar. They were both putting up "all-star numbers", but one team had 70% more wins than the other to this point though.

And Hawkeye, what is Love doing this year that hasn't been done in NBA history. Please explain.

I will leave Hawkeye to explain the first part in detail to you if he so chooses because of the fact that he watches almost every game and he's quite frankly the most knowledgeably person on the topic whom I have ever read.

What I would say on that though that the combination of health, maturity, decent bench and good defensive players all were factors in the fact that they had a better record, but as anyone knows comparing two different teams from different years and trying to find a solid reasoning as to why any things differ is no easy task, there are a ton of different things that must be taken into consideration.

As for the 2nd part I would answer on Hawkeye's behalf and say this

There has never been a player in NBA History to ever average 21 points, 15 rebounds, 40% from the 3 AND shot over 85% from the Free Throw Line. That in itself is simply remarkable. I'm sure however there is a whole lot more he himself can tell you.

flclfanman
01-29-2011, 10:07 PM
Does a bear sh][t in the woods?

Giraffes Rule
01-29-2011, 10:08 PM
Sorry dawg but PSD votes don't mean much to me. No one is denying his stats, but when your putting up stats on a bad team it doesn't mean anything.

You don't seem to be considering that it's the coaches' decision on who to take into the all-star game. Coaches love players like Love. He works hard, brings it every game, and doesn't have the freak athleticism most star players have to fall back on. What does 3 point percentage have to do with his team being bad? What does his high efficiency have to do with being on a bad team? If he were stat padding on a bad team he wouldn't be nearly as efficient as he is now.



No offense, but if you haven't noticed, the only players you guys get are the players no one else wants. When it's his time to leave, the only thing keeping him in Minny is a ridiculous contract. Probably a Max or something close to it.

And considering you guys are financially among the worst in the league, those contracts aren't easy for you to give out, and it's not going to be easy to man a team that can actually do damage in the playoffs.

You know this, I know this, and Love knows this.

And all of that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. If you can't back up your opinions with facts, don't start trying to change the subject and bait T'Wolves fans. That's bush league.

beasted86
01-29-2011, 10:11 PM
If Love doesn't make it to the allstar game this year then he will be the biggest snub of recent history. He's been putting up UNPRECEDENTED numbers. When was the last time someone put 16/22?

1983 - Moses Malone

The huge difference is that team won 65 games because of his impact and won the NBA Championship.

If there wasn't a precedent already set for All-star's being almost required to be playing for a winning or decent team, maybe I could see it. But with the history of how voting has gone, to let Love in would be double standard to all the previous guys they have snubbed over the years.

Not only are the Wolves a bad team, they are a TERRIBLE team in the bottom 2 records in the league.

KG4MVP
01-29-2011, 10:15 PM
I like what Al Jefferson had to say about Love before the game yesterday. He said that he couldnt picture the nba all star game without the league leading rebounder playing. Rebounding is a pretty significant stat, so his reasoning makes sense to me at least

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 10:17 PM
Being on a winning team is one of the most important factors not a tie breaker....the fact that its being debated on if Love should be an all star proves that.

Again hear what you're saying? Being on a winning team not leading, not having great impact not being effective not being efficient. Not because a player is on a winning team that automatically means he is deserving of a player whom is not, if he is not impacting the game in a major way and could essentially be replaced by another player of similar production and no change whatsoever would be seen, eg. replacing David West with Al Jefferson on this year's Hornets. How much would that change their respective records? Now place Kevin Love on those said Hornets. They could essentially be a legit contender, and don't even start with the talk about D because West himself has never been known much for his defensive capabilities.

Let's do a historical reference on this ok. Go back in the history books and tell me something, has their ever been a player who has been this efficient and NOT made it to the all star game. The most effective and valuable players are chosen NOT just the players who play on the teams with the best records. It just so happens that he is being this efficient on a bad team.

When you get your results and prove me wrong on this I will gladly change my vote, until then he deserves to be an All Star.

cambovenzi
01-29-2011, 10:20 PM
Again hear what you're saying? Being on a winning team not leading, not having great impact not being effective not being efficient. Not because a player is on a winning team that automatically means he is deserving of a player whom is not, if he is not impacting the game in a major way and could essentially be replaced by another player of similar production and no change whatsoever would be seen, eg. replacing David West with Al Jefferson on this year's Hornets. How much would that change their respective records? Now place Kevin Love on those said Hornets. They could essentially be a legit contender, and don't even start with the talk about D because West himself has never been known much for his defensive capabilities.

Let's do a historical reference on this ok. Go back in the history books and tell me something, has their ever been a player who has been this efficient and NOT made it to the all star game. The most effective and valuable players are chosen NOT just the players who play on the teams with the best records. It just so happens that he is being this efficient on a bad team.

When you get your results and prove me wrong on this I will gladly change my vote, until then he deserves to be an All Star.
Has there ever been a big man that shoots 47% and misses the allstar game?
Yeah. every year.

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 10:27 PM
1983 - Moses Malone

The huge difference is that team won 65 games because of his impact and won the NBA Championship.

If there wasn't a precedent already set for All-star's being almost required to be playing for a winning or decent team, maybe I could see it. But with the history of how voting has gone, to let Love in would be double standard to all the previous guys they have snubbed over the years.

Not only are the Wolves a bad team, they are a TERRIBLE team in the bottom 2 records in the league.

As a 76ers fan I must wholeheartedly disagree with this statement in its entirety.

Moses wasn't the only reason we were able to win the ship, that team consisted of arguably the best Back Court combination in 76ers history as well as one of the top 20 players of all time and possibly the 3rd best (may be higher depending on who you ask) SF of all time. That season we were EXPECTED to contend for the ship and were strong favourites. Not solely because of Moses but because of the fact that we had our best unit ever. He was the final piece to our championship puzzle.

If Bosh signed elsewhere and the Heat played with Wade and LeBron this season along with Beasley and failed to make the finals and then next season were to make a swap of Beasley and Love he himself would be seen as the missing piece to that championship puzzle. That is what Moses brought to us. A dominator an all time great and IMO a MUCH MUCH better player Love is but don't just say that he was the only reason we did so well he is not Michael Jordan.

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 10:28 PM
Has there ever been a big man that shoots 47% and misses the allstar game?
Yeah. every year.

You clearly don't understand stats or anything of what you are talking about. I will waste no more posts on you.

cambovenzi
01-29-2011, 10:33 PM
You clearly don't understand stats or anything of what you are talking about. I will waste no more posts on you.

Yeah well if you said it it must be true :rolleyes:

You still fail to address my points of why he is borderline and not a lock by any means.
He isnt more talented than many of the guys that will get in ahead of him.
Your "omg no one ever had a season like thatttt!!!" isnt a good enough reason.
He isnt an elite scorer or defender. 47% isnt impressive.
He gets tons of shots and rebounds because his team blows. Good for him. Ill give him a cookie but not an all star appearance over a true star Like Gasol, Dirk, Griffin, Duncan, etc.
There are a limited number of spots on an NBA Allstar team.

AddiX
01-29-2011, 10:36 PM
You don't seem to be considering that it's the coaches' decision on who to take into the all-star game. Coaches love players like Love. He works hard, brings it every game, and doesn't have the freak athleticism most star players have to fall back on. What does 3 point percentage have to do with his team being bad? What does his high efficiency have to do with being on a bad team? If he were stat padding on a bad team he wouldn't be nearly as efficient as he is now.



And all of that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. If you can't back up your opinions with facts, don't start trying to change the subject and bait T'Wolves fans. That's bush league.

I can care less if he makes it or not, I just don't think players on bad teams should make it, because the stats are useless.

And I wasn't baiting. I was just stating a strong opinion, that many other people also believe. And I'm tired of everyone throwing around baiting, trolling, detracting threads non-sense.

It's an open sports forum, The subject is Kevin love and i spoke my opinion about him.

If I said Love will be in the Hall of Fame one day, it might detract the thread and no one would care. But I say something negative and people cry and complain. Get over it.

Hawkeye15
01-29-2011, 10:50 PM
And Hawkeye, what is Love doing this year that hasn't been done in NBA history. Please explain.

21-15 on 40% 3pt shooting and 85% FT. Never been done. Ever. Ever. Ever. Ever.

There is your answer dude.

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 10:50 PM
Yeah well if you said it it must be true :rolleyes:

You still fail to address my points of why he is borderline and not a lock by any means.
He isnt more talented than many of the guys that will get in ahead of him.
Your "omg no one ever had a season like thatttt!!!" isnt a good enough reason.
He isnt an elite scorer or defender. 47% isnt impressive.
He gets tons of shots and rebounds because his team blows. Good for him. Ill give him a cookie but not an all star appearance over a true star Like Gasol, Dirk, Griffin, Duncan, etc.
There are a limited number of spots on an NBA Allstar team.

Is a TS% (100x better indicator as to how good a shooter a given player is than FG%) better than that of every starting western conference PF not named Dirk Nowitzki impressive enough for you or do you still need more reasoning.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=F&qual=&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=30&c2stat=mp_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=30&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ts_pct

If you say he gets a ton of rebounds because his team blows then I guess you think you honestly have ZERO understanding of what you are talking about.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=F&qual=&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=30&c2stat=mp_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=30&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=trb_pct

TRB% goes across borders despite what teammates you have, this is STILL the NBA he does go up against the BEST players in the world every single night. You must be extremely slow if you think its easy for any player to average 15+ rebounds per game. I guess we should say the same about Ben Wallace, Danny Fortson, Kevin Garnett, Dwight Howard, Dennis Rodman etc etc etc. Go play a basketball game against players who are just as good and better than you your height with a team of sucky players and tell me how much rebounds you pull down. You have NO clue of what you are talking about.

As for your other point I gave all the reasoning I had to throughout this entire thread just take a read.

Oh name me one other PF in the west who is an Elite Defender (Pau and Lamar are very very good but neither are Elite). Note that for the vast majority of this season Tim Duncan has played ALL his minutes at C. Name me one other PF in the west not named Dirk who is a more efficient scorer/gifted/complete scorer. Go right ahead.

Hawkeye15
01-29-2011, 10:53 PM
Sorry dawg but PSD votes don't mean much to me. No one is denying his stats, but when your putting up stats on a bad team it doesn't mean anything.

No offense, but if you haven't noticed, the only players you guys get are the players no one else wants. When it's his time to leave, the only thing keeping him in Minny is a ridiculous contract. Probably a Max or something close to it.

And considering you guys are financially among the worst in the league, those contracts aren't easy for you to give out, and it's not going to be easy to man a team that can actually do damage in the playoffs.

You know this, I know this, and Love knows this.

haha, ok bro. You are not even worth debating on this subject. You speak with pure speculation, and have no clue how to evaluate a player.

Respond away, I could care less. Love is an all star, and putting up numbers nobody has ever done, good team or bad team. I could honestly care less about your opinion on this, and no matter what I post, you will have a reply that you don't agree, so what is the point of me debating this with you?

beasted86
01-29-2011, 10:54 PM
21-15 on 40% 3pt shooting and 85% FT. Never been done. Ever. Ever. Ever. Ever.

There is your answer dude.

You do know that there was a large period of basketball history that didn't include a 3PT line, right?

You also know that we are only half way through the season, right?

And finally, how many times has a player averaged 21/15 on any percentages and it resulted in the bottom 2 record in the league, regardless of the quantity of teams in the league at the time?

Hawkeye15
01-29-2011, 10:56 PM
I can care less if he makes it or not, I just don't think players on bad teams should make it, because the stats are useless.

And I wasn't baiting. I was just stating a strong opinion, that many other people also believe. And I'm tired of everyone throwing around baiting, trolling, detracting threads non-sense.

It's an open sports forum, The subject is Kevin love and i spoke my opinion about him.

If I said Love will be in the Hall of Fame one day, it might detract the thread and no one would care. But I say something negative and people cry and complain. Get over it.

then just state that and move on. That way, nobody has to waste their time with your absolute statements, and can save a few minutes debating with someone who evaluates players on roster support.

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 10:56 PM
You do know that there was a large period of basketball history that didn't include a 3PT line, right?

You also know that we are only half way through the season, right?

32 of the 64 years to be exact. Half the time. It has never been done even over half a season.

well then take the 3 point shooting out of consideration. It still has never been done.

Hawkeye15
01-29-2011, 10:57 PM
You do know that there was a large period of basketball history that didn't include a 3PT line, right?

You also know that we are only half way through the season, right?

And finally, how many times has a player averaged 21/15 on any percentages and it resulted in the bottom 2 record in the league, regardless of the quantity of teams in the league at the time?

how many times has a player averaged 21-15 with those percentages on a good team?

That would be never.

Giraffes Rule
01-29-2011, 10:58 PM
I can care less if he makes it or not, I just don't think players on bad teams should make it, because the stats are useless.
So you don't care whether he makes it or not, you just are vehemently stating that he shouldn't. That's not a contradiction at all...

PS, that's sarcasm.


And I wasn't baiting. I was just stating a strong opinion, that many other people also believe. And I'm tired of everyone throwing around baiting, trolling, detracting threads non-sense.

It's an open sports forum, The subject is Kevin love and i spoke my opinion about him.

If I said Love will be in the Hall of Fame one day, it might detract the thread and no one would care. But I say something negative and people cry and complain. Get over it.

No, the subject is "should Kevin Love be an all-star." What you said has nothing to do with it and you only did it in an attempt to get a rise out of T'Wolves fans.

D Roses Bulls
01-29-2011, 10:59 PM
how many times has a player averaged 21-15 with those percentages on a good team?

That would be never.

how many players get that many touches on a good team to get a chance to put up those kind of numbers unless that man is a top 5 player in the NBA?

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 11:06 PM
how many players get that many touches on a good team to get a chance to put up those kind of numbers unless that man is a top 5 player in the NBA?

Well considering that Kevin Love is 20th in the league (Beasley is 7th even more touches than Love) among forwards with 10 players playing on teams with winning records that logic makes ZERO sense whatsoever.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=F&qual=&c1stat=g&c1comp=gt&c1val=30&c2stat=mp_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=30&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=usg_pct

Giraffes Rule
01-29-2011, 11:08 PM
how many players get that many touches on a good team to get a chance to put up those kind of numbers unless that man is a top 5 player in the NBA?

Kevin Love's usage% isn't even in the top 20 of the league. It's 23.4, far away from the tops of the league.

Swashcuff
01-29-2011, 11:10 PM
Kevin Love's usage% isn't even in the top 20 of the league. It's 23.4, far away from the tops of the league.

41st among players who plays 30 or more minutes and played in 30 or more games. He logic makes no sense whatsoever.

Oh and I was being nice by just comparing players who play more than 30 minutes per because without such barometer he goes even lower on that list at 56th, again proving how utterly ridiculous that poster's logic is.

Hawkeye15
01-29-2011, 11:46 PM
how many players get that many touches on a good team to get a chance to put up those kind of numbers unless that man is a top 5 player in the NBA?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=usg_pct

Love is #76 in usage. The Wolves don't run plays for him.

Hawkeye15
01-29-2011, 11:52 PM
its hilarious the pathetic, hollow arguments that say Love gets inflated stats on a bad team. He is leading the league in a number of categories, and top 10-15 in tons of them. He is putting up numbers never accomplished in the NBA. He gets his looks in pure flow, and doesn't dominate the ball like most stars that get their numbers. He creates possessions, in dominant in categories that would make any team much better. I have no idea how anyone would crap on a player who is not even top 75 in usage (meaning he isn't involved in a ton of plays in comparison to most stars), yet still puts up the numbers he is putting up. His win share total is top 10, regardless of his team's record. You can pull out the "great stats on a bad team" argument all you like. Fact is, nobody on a terrible, ok, good, great, championship team, has had the baseline stats since 1982, or the advanced stats, EVER, that Love has.

He is an all star. Period. He is a top 15 player in the NBA. You can come up with any excuse you like, Love is extremely valuable in any scenario, to any team

beasted86
01-29-2011, 11:59 PM
its hilarious the pathetic, hollow arguments that say Love gets inflated stats on a bad team. He is leading the league in a number of categories, and top 10-15 in tons of them. He is putting up numbers never accomplished in the NBA. He gets his looks in pure flow, and doesn't dominate the ball like most stars that get their numbers. He creates possessions, in dominant in categories that would make any team much better. I have no idea how anyone would crap on a player who is not even top 75 in usage (meaning he isn't involved in a ton of plays in comparison to most stars), yet still puts up the numbers he is putting up. His win share total is top 10, regardless of his team's record. You can pull out the "great stats on a bad team" argument all you like. Fact is, nobody on a terrible, ok, good, great, championship team, has had the baseline stats since 1982, or the advanced stats, EVER, that Love has.

And yet his team is the 2nd worst in the NBA in the standings.

This is why I wanted you to compared the 08 vs. 11 team, but you seem to not want to do that. Fine, then just explain in any sort of way how those stats can be accomplished on a 0.234 win percentage team over half way through the season?

My argument unlike others in this thread has only been about his teams lack of winning, not his individual lack of stats.

Giraffes Rule
01-30-2011, 12:04 AM
And yet his team is the 2nd worst in the NBA in the standings.

This is why I wanted you to compared the 08 vs. 11 team, but you seem to not want to do that. Fine, then just explain in any sort of way how those stats can be accomplished on a 10 win team over half way through the season?

:facepalm: You entire argument is basically "**** all those stats, his team sucks!" You replace Kevin Love with any other power forward in this league and they would still have one of the worst records in the league.

beasted86
01-30-2011, 12:07 AM
:facepalm: You entire argument is basically "**** all those stats, his team sucks!" You replace Kevin Love with any other power forward in this league and they would still have one of the worst records in the league.
Yes. My argument is he has all-star stats, but not WINS. People have put up all-star stats and have been snubbed. I see no reason this is any different.

I've never seen a player put up this good of stats in anytime recently, but at the same time I've never seen those good of stats on that bad of a team all-time.

Giraffes Rule
01-30-2011, 12:13 AM
Yes. My argument is he has all-star stats, but not WINS. People have put up all-star stats and have been snubbed. I see no reason this is any different.

I've never seen a player put up this good of stats in anytime recently, but at the same time I've never seen those good of stats on that bad of a team all-time.

You've never seen these kind of stats period. It's never been done before. Good team, bad team, doesn't make a bit of difference. I don't care how poor his team's record is, it doesn't change how he's performing head, shoulders, knees and toes above the majority of the league. You can't use past players as a reason he shouldn't get into the all-star game, because no past player has done what he's doing right now.

If you don't understand what the stats are telling you, maybe you should learn.

SteBO
01-30-2011, 12:15 AM
Sorry, bt you don't average 21 and 16 like Moses Malone and not make the All-Star team. It's that simple.

Swashcuff
01-30-2011, 12:29 AM
Yes. My argument is he has all-star stats, but not WINS. People have put up all-star stats and have been snubbed. I see no reason this is any different.

I've never seen a player put up this good of stats in anytime recently, but at the same time I've never seen those good of stats on that bad of a team all-time.

This is not boxing, this is not golf, this is not tennis, this is basketball a TEAM sport.

He does not have wins because his team does not have wins. His team does not have wins because his teammates don't play to well together (just by looking at that team you can tell there are chemistry issues I mean they seldom run plays for their best player and soon to be All-Star), are inexperienced, have been injured and just aren't that good. PERIOD. He is 4th in the league in Win Shares, that in itself goes a long way in stating how much impact he is having on his horrible team. He is having a stellar season but his team has had to deal with so much this season that their record has mirrored their various woes.

You asked for a comparison of this year's roster as compared to that of 08-09 I am not the man who can best give you that but I gave you solid reasoning as to why earlier. You are yet to respond to that post but then claim that no one is giving any reasoning.

topdog
01-30-2011, 12:29 AM
Keep defending Him Minny Fans, it won't be to long until he leaves.

No, hes not an all star. As a Knick fan I remember when Curry was putting up 20-10 and people said he should be an all star.

No, you don't get on the team by stuffing stats on a bad team. Because if your not winning games, that's all your doing, stuffing stats.

Did you really just compare Eddy Curry to Kevin Love? :facepalm:

Yeah, it doesn't matter when your 3 pointers are cutting a lead to 2. You're just stuffing stats. And you're not helping your team win when you pull down 31 rebounds against the Knicks, you're just embarrassing them.

D-Will4Prez
01-30-2011, 12:31 AM
He is an all star. Period. He is a top 15 player in the NBA. You can come up with any excuse you like, Love is extremely valuable in any scenario, to any team

Actually, I'm having a hard time naming 10 players better than Love...

Swashcuff
01-30-2011, 12:33 AM
Did you really just compare Eddy Curry to Kevin Love? :facepalm:

Yeah, it doesn't matter when your 3 pointers are cutting a lead to 2. You're just stuffing stats. And you're not helping your team win when you pull down 31 rebounds against the Knicks, you're just embarrassing them.

Dude what are you talking about anyone can pull down 31 rebounds if they play on a bad team that happens virtually every night. :p

His post epitomizes his knowledge of the topic. None!

Hawkeye15
01-30-2011, 12:38 AM
And yet his team is the 2nd worst in the NBA in the standings.

This is why I wanted you to compared the 08 vs. 11 team, but you seem to not want to do that. Fine, then just explain in any sort of way how those stats can be accomplished on a 0.234 win percentage team over half way through the season?

My argument unlike others in this thread has only been about his teams lack of winning, not his individual lack of stats.

your argument is based around roster support, and circumstance of age. You have zip argument on Love's historical numbers. If you wish to vote all stars from good teams only, then state it. That way we can all see your foundational opinion and move on.

tbone2171
01-30-2011, 01:02 AM
I say no. I'd take Dirk, West, and Griffin all before Love. Love just doesn't play on a good enough team to make it. 2 road wins on the year, and those coming against the cavs and kings. No thanks

Griffin deserves to make it but Love doesn't??? Ok bud

knicksfan42
01-30-2011, 01:12 AM
I love this whole historical numbers thing. Its kind of funyy. Oh 21 and 15 has been done, but not on 40% shooting from 3 and 85% from the free throw line, haha. So he's shooting 47% from the field overall which isn't very good for an all star caliber big man, forget that remember that 3 point percentage and ft% its not his total shooting percentage that matters. I would me more impressed if he was shooting 55% from the field and only 20% from three.

You guys are literally pushing Kevin Love as the best PF in the league ever. I mean seriously reading some of the comments its unbelievable.

Look Kevin Love is good no doubt, but everyone here is acting like being on a bottom 3 team has no effect at all on his stats. Look a lot of great big men (TD, KG, Shaq) in the NBA right now, in their primes, would have been stat padding like crazy if they were playing on the current Minny team. While also leading the team to a much better record. But if you guys want to believe that playing on the 2nd worst team in the NBA has no positive effects on your stats thats fine. Oh and for those of you wondering, ''well how do you pad stats on a ****** team?'' Well here's one example: team A is bottom ten in FG% so they miss a lot of shots, providing for a lot of offensive rebounding opportunities. Team A also has no one who can rebound, but one player. Team A ends up missing a lot of shots, but also grabs a lot of boards, well not the whole team, but one player the only player who can grab boards and doesn't have to compete with anyone on his team for boards since no one else is good at grabbing them, said player ends up grabbing half of the teams boards.

Swashcuff
01-30-2011, 01:53 AM
I love this whole historical numbers thing. Its kind of funyy. Oh 21 and 15 has been done, but not on 40% shooting from 3 and 85% from the free throw line, haha.

Could you kindly name me one player in NBA history who has averaged 21 points and 15 rebounds during the first half of an NBA season and not made the All Star team. I couldn't find one so please could you find me one, and feel free to exclude the shooting part.


So he's shooting 47% from the field overall which isn't very good for an all star caliber big man, forget that remember that 3 point percentage and ft% its not his total shooting percentage that matters. I would me more impressed if he was shooting 55% from the field and only 20% from three.

As you said YOU would be more impressed. You as one person who is not being realistic in the very least. Tell me this there is chatter going around that Aldridge and Zach are more deserving than Love but what is their FG% and by taking a simple look at the numbers they both attempt MORE shots in the paint (in case you don't know that's higher percentage shots) than Kevin Love. But yet still there are only shooting ONE percent better overall from the field.

http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=PF&yr=2011&gp=30&mins=30

http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=PF&yr=2011&gp=30&mins=30

So doesn't it now make more sense that the players who are taking the higher percentage shots would naturally shoot a higher percentage?

Oh and as a refresher I would just like to tell you that Dirk Nowitzki's career FG% is.... wait.... what? say it aint so? YES it is 47%. Isn't Dirk one of the greaters shooters of all time to ever play the forward position? Isn't Dirk Nowitzki a 9 time All-Star, MVP award winner and arguably one of the top 5 greatest PFs to ever play the game? So tell me again what was your point about FG percentages of All Star Worthy PF.


You guys are literally pushing Kevin Love as the best PF in the league ever. I mean seriously reading some of the comments its unbelievable.


At no point did any logical poster (Hawkeye, Swashcuff, Giraffes Rule) even begin even think to mutter such ridiculousness.


Look Kevin Love is good no doubt, but everyone here is acting like being on a bottom 3 team has no effect at all on his stats. Look a lot of great big men (TD, KG, Shaq) in the NBA right now, in their primes, would have been stat padding like crazy if they were playing on the current Minny team. While also leading the team to a much better record. But if you guys want to believe that playing on the 2nd worst team in the NBA has no positive effects on your stats thats fine. Oh and for those of you wondering, ''well how do you pad stats on a ****** team?'' Well here's one example: team A is bottom ten in FG% so they miss a lot of shots, providing for a lot of offensive rebounding opportunities. Team A also has no one who can rebound, but one player. Team A ends up missing a lot of shots, but also grabs a lot of boards, well not the whole team, but one player the only player who can grab boards and doesn't have to compete with anyone on his team for boards since no one else is good at grabbing them, said player ends up grabbing half of the teams boards.

If you think that is all there is to rebounding/offensive rebounding then my friend you are sadly sadly sadly mistaken. You may have never even stepped foot onto a basketball court. Watch Kevin Love play and you'd realize that he works harder than anyone in the league on both ends to grab those rebounds it is not by chance. This is easily the most horrible example I've read in this entire thread. Look at the man play and you wouldn't be making useless examples such as these. It holds ZERO relevance to what Love is doing. Do you not understand great rebounding is an art, a skill, a work out it doesn't happen by chance. You don't grab 30 rebounds by chance or as a result of having poor team you grab them by working your butt off. This isn't the 60s every single night you go up against players who are just as big and just as strong as you.

Zach Randolph, Carlos Boozer, Andrew Bogut, Dwight Howard, Kevin Garnett, Chris Bosh, Al Jefferson etc etc etc etc etc have either this season or at some point in their respective careers played alongside teammates who weren't/aren't much better than the lights of Darko, Beasley, Brewer, Tolliver and Johnson but yet still for some reason none of these great players some even future HOFers have been able to average 15 rebounds per game.

There is also a stat which takes all those factors you mentioned into consideration and despite what your teammates look like it will mirror how consistent you are as a rebounder. Its rebounding rate Kevin Love is 3rd in that regard. In terms of offensive rebounding rate (you can play alongside 4 Earl Boykins and yet still you won't be an effective offensive rebounder) he is #2.

http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx

http://www.hoopdata.com/defrebstats.aspx?team=%25&type=pg&posi=%25&yr=2011&gp=30&mins=25

In the last 10 years there have been one player who has averaged 5 offensive rebounds per game and that was Elton Brand in 01-02 this season Kevin Love is doing just that.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brandel01.html

Now to close. Please tell me this. How on earth could a player "pad his stats" and still be #2 in Offensive Win Shares, #4 in Win Shares, #6 in PER and #20 in TS%?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2011&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=mp_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=30&c2stat=g&c2comp=gt&c2val=30&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ts_pct

There is no way in hell someone can "pad stats" and still be so effecient. No way whatsoever. Monta paded his stats last season and was very ineffecient in doing so. Kevin Love simply put is BEASTING.

Did you look at the game tonight against the Raptors? Maybe if you did you'd understand what we are saying a bit better.

chipurmunki
01-30-2011, 02:08 AM
Should the best PF in the game right now be an all-star?

Umm duh?

hence the reason for this being the retardedest thread ever. der derder

NJBASEBALL22
01-30-2011, 02:38 AM
Yes. Easily.