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Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 01:14 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/TrueHoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time


Not creating this for any other reason than to show updated information on Kobe's clutch play. You can clearly see what many of us have been saying a long time. There are players more clutch than Kobe.

desertlakeshow
01-28-2011, 01:29 PM
Fail.


No, Epic Fail.


This is like showing that Magic Johnson has NBA leading turnovers for his career, and saying he is not the best ever at his position.


For god sakes if the entire NBA coaches and players think Kobe is the most clutch, he is. It really is that simple.

Hellcrooner
01-28-2011, 01:33 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/TrueHoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time


Not creating this for any other reason than to show updated information on Kobe's clutch play. You can clearly see what many of us have been saying a long time. There are players more clutch than Kobe.

you should have posted the old one to infuriate kobe fans even more by showing a certain tall bearded guy has a better % at clutch shots than him ( i guess he has shot less than 30 attempts and thats why he is removed from this new list).

GSW Hoops
01-28-2011, 01:44 PM
You can throw out all the numbers. Kobe is the most clutch player in the NBA, just as Jordan was before him.

Some bench guy like Dan Dickau was probably 2 for 2 lifetime in clutch shots, but that doesn't make him the most clutch.

You also have to take into account the difficulty of such shots. EVERYONE knows Kobe and Jordan were getting the ball, yet they still were able to create and hit circus shots with the game on the line--sometimes with 2 or 3 seconds on the clock.

Down by 1, with four seconds left, who would YOU want taking the shot? Most folks would say Kobe.

KingPosey
01-28-2011, 01:50 PM
It makes me sick to say, but if my life was on the line Kobe takes the shot for me.

SteBO
01-28-2011, 01:50 PM
I'm not even a Lakers fan, and even i know that that article is irrelevant. Clutch means more than just numbers. What's so difficult to understand? Kobe's been clutch in his entire career, so......Kobe.....is.......clutch. Nobody is better than him in that aspect. THE END

Hellcrooner
01-28-2011, 01:51 PM
what it means its that if you try enough times you will make the news nationaly enough times for making it and people will forget how many times you crapped on it.

Avenged
01-28-2011, 01:54 PM
Kobe also holds the most attempts with 115.

beasted86
01-28-2011, 01:54 PM
Down by 1, with four seconds left, who would YOU want taking the shot? Most folks would say Kobe.

I don't believe you or anyone who says it's Kobe based on belief of actual ability. It's only belief in your fanship and favoritism that makes anyone pick Kobe or any other player. I actually don't believe any single player is better than anyone in those situations, it's mostly the coach drawing up a play, and luck.

Kobe is one of the better "closers" in the league. Closing means the last 3-4 minutes in a close game, or when you are down by a few points. But looking at game winning shots, by no means if there is 24 seconds or less on the clock am I disregarding the statistics. Kobe's not that good at GWs.

Bookey
01-28-2011, 01:58 PM
Kobe is the most clutch player obviously,why do you think he was trusted to take so many of those shots,just as jordan,he didn't have the highest percentage either,i bet if u had to pick any two players in nba history to take the big shot,u bet your *** i'm picking mj or kobe,kobe has five rings to prove how clutch he is, jordan has six, espn is just a bunch of heat lovers & kobe haters,this is a joke.

Bookey
01-28-2011, 01:59 PM
I don't believe you or anyone who says it's Kobe based on belief of actual ability. It's only belief in your fanship and favoritism that makes anyone pick Kobe or any other player. I actually don't believe any single player is better than anyone in those situations, it's mostly the coach drawing up a play, and luck.

Kobe is one of the better "closers" in the league. Closing means the last 3-4 minutes in a close game, or when you are down by a few points. But looking at game winning shots, by no means if there is 24 seconds or less on the clock am I disregarding the statistics. Kobe's not that good at GWs.

SERIOUSLY :facepalm:,THEN WHO'S BETTER & HOW MANY RINGS DO THEY HAVE?

BrahCake954
01-28-2011, 01:59 PM
Kobe also holds the most attempts with 115.

is that ur argument?

carmelo has made a quarter of what kobe has made on almost 80 less shots.. do the math

OVERRATEd

there are too many kobe whores to make this thread work.. if this thread was against lebron, the whole PSD will post abt how lebron is overrated

Hellcrooner
01-28-2011, 02:01 PM
btw ive never understood why nba defenses ALLOW clutch plays.

It amazes me.

Close game 60 seconds and players from both team let the attacks run plays and attempt shots.


In Fiba basket games that are close in the last minute become a 10 minute show of Intentional fouls Free throws and time outs.
You barely ever see a "last clutch shot"

SteBO
01-28-2011, 02:01 PM
is that ur argument?

carmelo has made a quarter of what kobe has made on almost 80 less shots.. do the math

OVERRATEd

Now I've heard it all. A guy with five rings, OVERRATED IN CLUTCH SITUATIONS! Yeah, okay. :rolleyes:

rickshaw
01-28-2011, 02:02 PM
Some bench guy like Dan Dickau was probably 2 for 2 lifetime in clutch shots, but that doesn't make him the most clutch..

you must have 30 attempts gto be on the list



You also have to take into account the difficulty of such shots. EVERYONE knows Kobe and Jordan were getting the ball, yet they still were able to create and hit circus shots with the game on the line--sometimes with 2 or 3 seconds on the clock..

Player like Carmelo, Chris Paul, and Lebron are ahead of him, doesnt EVERYONE know theyre getting the ball? (maybe except for this year with Lebron) but you get the point

Avenged
01-28-2011, 02:06 PM
is that ur argument?

carmelo has made a quarter of what kobe has made on almost 80 less shots.. do the math

OVERRATEd

there are too many kobe whores to make this thread work.. if this thread was against lebron, the whole PSD will post abt how lebron is overrated

Not an argument, I rarely defend Kobe anyways..

But to call him overrated is quite laughable.. The way you make it seem, I think you believe Melo is the better player.

rickshaw
01-28-2011, 02:06 PM
For god sakes if the entire NBA coaches and players think Kobe is the most clutch, he is. It really is that simple.

they also picked chauncey billups second, who was 3 for 27. so maybe its not that simple

nickdymez
01-28-2011, 02:06 PM
I don't believe you or anyone who says it's Kobe based on belief of actual ability. It's only belief in your fanship and favoritism that makes anyone pick Kobe or any other player. I actually don't believe any single player is better than anyone in those situations, it's mostly the coach drawing up a play, and luck.

Kobe is one of the better "closers" in the league. Closing means the last 3-4 minutes in a close game, or when you are down by a few points. But looking at game winning shots, by no means if there is 24 seconds or less on the clock am I disregarding the statistics. Kobe's not that good at GWs.

I love arrogant heat fans

JordansBulls
01-28-2011, 02:07 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/14218/new-numbers-on-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Seems like the same writer.

beasted86
01-28-2011, 02:09 PM
I love arrogant heat fans

I'm arrogant because I'm not overlooking the statistics?

Because I said Kobe is a good closer, but not a good GW shot taker, I'm hating.

Okay, cool. :cool:

Klivlend
01-28-2011, 02:10 PM
Numbers don't lie. They simply reflect what some of us have been saying for quite some time now.

Rivera
01-28-2011, 02:10 PM
I don't believe you or anyone who says it's Kobe based on belief of actual ability. It's only belief in your fanship and favoritism that makes anyone pick Kobe or any other player. I actually don't believe any single player is better than anyone in those situations, it's mostly the coach drawing up a play, and luck.

Kobe is one of the better "closers" in the league. Closing means the last 3-4 minutes in a close game, or when you are down by a few points. But looking at game winning shots, by no means if there is 24 seconds or less on the clock am I disregarding the statistics. Kobe's not that good at GWs.

WOW just WOW

:facepalm:

BrahCake954
01-28-2011, 02:10 PM
Now I've heard it all. A guy with five rings, OVERRATED IN CLUTCH SITUATIONS! Yeah, okay. :rolleyes:

he piggybacks shaq and gasol..

what did he do without shaq or gasol?
Nothing. so plz stfu

DenButsu
01-28-2011, 02:10 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/TrueHoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time


Not creating this for any other reason than to show updated information on Kobe's clutch play. You can clearly see what many of us have been saying a long time. There are players more clutch than Kobe.

I tweeted Henry Abbott (and I'm sure he'll reply... :rolleyes: ), asking him why he bent his article on "Kobe isn't the king of clutch" instead of "Melo IS the king of clutch".

I mean really, shouldn't the story be the guys at the top of the list, and not the guys in the middle?

Hellcrooner
01-28-2011, 02:11 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/14218/new-numbers-on-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Seems like the same writer.

thats the one i was talking bout.

Where Pau has a HIGHER % of succes on clutch shots.

But he seems to " always fail on the crunch time" basing on the beliefes of "laker":rolleyes: Fans.

rickshaw
01-28-2011, 02:12 PM
I love arrogant heat fans

Almost as much as arrogant Lebron haters :flag:

Atticus Finch
01-28-2011, 02:13 PM
I hate the arbitrary definitions that are used for what is considered clutch time. By that guys definition, if the Lakers were up 1 with 10 seconds left in a game against a team like San Antonio or Boston and Kobe makes a shot, is that not clutch? Knowing the history of these teams its likely the game would have been back and forth the whole time, so that one shot elevates the Lakers chances from worst case scenario they lose, to worst case scenario the other team hits a 3 to force OT. I'm not going to sit here and argue the stats are wrong, but I've watched a huge majority of the games Kobe has played throughout and I've seen the guy make countless back breaking shots that put the nail in the coffin for the other team, regardless of whether the Lakers were winning or losing. Clutch doesn't only consist of game winning shots, you have to factor in big plays made during the most critical parts of the game. You can't draw a line at 24 seconds and say that shots made within 24 seconds have significantly more weight than shots made at 25 seconds, 1 minute, or even 5 minutes. I guess by this guy's definition a go ahead home run hit in the bottom of the 8th isn't clutch because it wasn't a walk off.

Tony_Starks
01-28-2011, 02:14 PM
Clutch isn't measured in stats. You can't break it down with per. There's no mathmatic equation for it. The bottom line is when the game is on the line who is the player every coach would give it to and every opposing team fears? Everyone in the league says Kobe Bryant.

I wish people would quit trying to use skewed stats to prove a point and just actually watch this guy play. You're missing out on one of the best to ever do it!

Avenged
01-28-2011, 02:15 PM
This writers agenda was too completely disregard Kobe, he went in there writing a piece with a bias state of mind. I'm not saying he's flat out wrong, Kobe may not be the unanimous choice when talking clutch, but he's feared for a reason.. Not just because his name is "Kobe".

You have to take into account the design of the play, the double, triple teams, shots taken, and or the amount of shots that were complete bailouts. Look at the main picture in the link, there are 4 player around Kobe. :speechless:

I don't think anyone will have a great % when you see defenses like that.

Hellcrooner
01-28-2011, 02:15 PM
I hate the arbitrary definitions that are used for what is considered clutch time. By that guys definition, if the Lakers were up 1 with 10 seconds left in a game against a team like San Antonio or Boston and Kobe makes a shot, is that not clutch? Knowing the history of these teams its likely the game would have been back and forth the whole time, so that one shot elevates the Lakers chances from worst case scenario they lose, to worst case scenario the other team hits a 3 to force OT. I'm not going to sit here and argue the stats are wrong, but I've watched a huge majority of the games Kobe has played throughout and I've seen the guy make countless back breaking shots that put the nail in the coffin for the other team, regardless of whether the Lakers were winning or losing. Clutch doesn't only consist of game winning shots, you have to factor in big plays made during the most critical parts of the game. You can't draw a line at 24 seconds and say that shots made within 24 seconds have significantly more weight than shots made at 25 seconds, 1 minute, or even 5 minutes. I guess by this guy's definition a go ahead home run hit in the bottom of the 8th isn't clutch because it wasn't a walk off.

its easy to do so if you shoot 80% of your teams shots on the 4th quarters.

Tony_Starks
01-28-2011, 02:15 PM
I hate the arbitrary definitions that are used for what is considered clutch time. By that guys definition, if the Lakers were up 1 with 10 seconds left in a game against a team like San Antonio or Boston and Kobe makes a shot, is that not clutch? Knowing the history of these teams its likely the game would have been back and forth the whole time, so that one shot elevates the Lakers chances from worst case scenario they lose, to worst case scenario the other team hits a 3 to force OT. I'm not going to sit here and argue the stats are wrong, but I've watched a huge majority of the games Kobe has played throughout and I've seen the guy make countless back breaking shots that put the nail in the coffin for the other team, regardless of whether the Lakers were winning or losing. Clutch doesn't only consist of game winning shots, you have to factor in big plays made during the most critical parts of the game. You can't draw a line at 24 seconds and say that shots made within 24 seconds have significantly more weight than shots made at 25 seconds, 1 minute, or even 5 minutes. I guess by this guy's definition a go ahead home run hit in the bottom of the 8th isn't clutch because it wasn't a walk off.


very well said.

SteBO
01-28-2011, 02:15 PM
he piggybacks shaq and gasol..

what did he do without shaq or gasol?
Nothing. so plz stfu

What did Gasol or Shaq do without Kobe.
Shaq - 1 ring (piggybacked wade)
Gasol - nothing

It goes both ways pal. So plz stfu. :clap:

Atticus Finch
01-28-2011, 02:17 PM
its easy to do so if you shoot 80% of your teams shots on the 4th quarters.

ok dude everyone knows you hate Kobe and love Gasol. Nothing new here

Rivera
01-28-2011, 02:18 PM
not for nothing....kobe has twice as many shots as the nearest player on the list....that should be taken into account...60 shots compared to 120 is a big difference

Avenged
01-28-2011, 02:18 PM
I tweeted Henry Abbott (and I'm sure he'll reply... :rolleyes: ), asking him why he bent his article on "Kobe isn't the king of clutch" instead of "Melo IS the king of clutch".

I mean really, shouldn't the story be the guys at the top of the list, and not the guys in the middle?

Exactly what i was trying to say in my previous post. The writer had a bias state of mind when writing the article, providing all the negatives in terms of Kobe and clutch without the positives.

Bookey
01-28-2011, 02:18 PM
Ray allen & reggie miller don't have the best 3pt %,but there is no question that they are the best shooters of all time

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-28-2011, 02:18 PM
btw ive never understood why nba defenses ALLOW clutch plays.

It amazes me.

Close game 60 seconds and players from both team let the attacks run plays and attempt shots.


In Fiba basket games that are close in the last minute become a 10 minute show of Intentional fouls Free throws and time outs.
You barely ever see a "last clutch shot"

this is NBA not some stupid euro crap

numba1CHANGsta
01-28-2011, 02:19 PM
He makes them about 1/3 of the time, which is pretty darn good, and attempted triple if not double of the attempts than the ones who are at 34% and higher. Kobe has 5 championships, and all those other players mentioned have won a combined 7 championships, and one of them was a teammate, CASE CLOSE!

Hellcrooner
01-28-2011, 02:21 PM
this is NBA not some stupid euro crap

i thought sports were bout winning, and the ft crap is very effective in that regard.

Bookey
01-28-2011, 02:21 PM
what did gasol or shaq do without kobe.
Shaq - 1 ring (piggybacked wade)
gasol - nothing

it goes both ways pal. So plz stfu. :clap:

great point,& before gasol went to la,he was a good player,playing with kobe made him a great player.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-28-2011, 02:21 PM
thats the one i was talking bout.

Where Pau has a HIGHER % of succes on clutch shots.

But he seems to " always fail on the crunch time" basing on the beliefes of "laker":rolleyes: Fans.

Pau can't create his own shot to save his life

Hellcrooner
01-28-2011, 02:22 PM
i find funny that people deffending his "clutchness" use the fact he is triple teamed as a +

while in fact it should be a high - against him.

simple math, if 3 guys are on you two of your teamates are completely ALONE.
Pas the ****ing ball damm ballhog.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
01-28-2011, 02:23 PM
i thought sports were bout winning, and the ft crap is very effective in that regard.

C'mon it's safer to one player to take a clutch shot, than making up some offensive play where you can easily turn the ball over.

Hellcrooner
01-28-2011, 02:24 PM
great point,& before gasol went to la,he was a good player,playing with kobe made him a great player.

pau was the exact same player than he is now.
he didnt get on tv as often thats all.

btw its no coincidence that BOTH players effectivity has raised since they are paired togheter.
simply other teams have to pay attention to BOTH.


and as far as i know kobe withouth shaq or gasol has reached the same than gasol with no kobe.
FIRST ROUND EXIT.

DoubleDragon
01-28-2011, 02:28 PM
Fail.


No, Epic Fail.


This is like showing that Magic Johnson has NBA leading turnovers for his career, and saying he is not the best ever at his position.


For god sakes if the entire NBA coaches and players think Kobe is the most clutch, he is. It really is that simple.

:clap:

DoubleDragon
01-28-2011, 02:32 PM
I hate the arbitrary definitions that are used for what is considered clutch time. By that guys definition, if the Lakers were up 1 with 10 seconds left in a game against a team like San Antonio or Boston and Kobe makes a shot, is that not clutch? Knowing the history of these teams its likely the game would have been back and forth the whole time, so that one shot elevates the Lakers chances from worst case scenario they lose, to worst case scenario the other team hits a 3 to force OT. I'm not going to sit here and argue the stats are wrong, but I've watched a huge majority of the games Kobe has played throughout and I've seen the guy make countless back breaking shots that put the nail in the coffin for the other team, regardless of whether the Lakers were winning or losing. Clutch doesn't only consist of game winning shots, you have to factor in big plays made during the most critical parts of the game. You can't draw a line at 24 seconds and say that shots made within 24 seconds have significantly more weight than shots made at 25 seconds, 1 minute, or even 5 minutes. I guess by this guy's definition a go ahead home run hit in the bottom of the 8th isn't clutch because it wasn't a walk off.

and THIS. Nice post

Atticus Finch
01-28-2011, 02:34 PM
pau was the exact same player than he is now.
he didnt get on tv as often thats all.

btw its no coincidence that BOTH players effectivity has raised since they are paired togheter.
simply other teams have to pay attention to BOTH.


and as far as i know kobe withouth shaq or gasol has reached the same than gasol with no kobe.
FIRST ROUND EXIT.

How many playoff games did Gasol win with Memphis? Oh yeah, 0. He was 0-8, his first win came in his first playoff game with the Lakers. Granted both teams lost in the first round, but taking a stacked Phoenix team to 7 games is much more impressive than never even sniffing a win.

Anyways, this isn't a Gasol vs. Kobe thread, it's very obvious they both need each other. No player ever gets it done by himself.

Atticus Finch
01-28-2011, 02:41 PM
And Kobe's 4th Quarter in game 7 was pretty damn decent if you ask me:

10 Points
2-5 FG
8-9 FT
1 Assist
4 Rebounds
1 Turnover
1 Foul

Big plays:
8:46 Left - Kobe gets fouled shooting a 3 with the Lakers down 4, makes all 3 FT
5:56 - Kobe gives the Lakers their first 4th quarter lead with 2 FTs
5:36 - Kobe got the defensive rebound, came down a hit a jumper, pushing the lead to 4
3:21 - Kobe hits a FT, pushing the lead to 5
1:01 - Lakers up 3, Kobe assists Artest's 3 pushing the lead to 6
25.7 - After a Ray Allen 3, a missed 3 by Kobe, and an offensive rebound by Gasol, KObe makes 2 FTs to push the lead back to 5.

Hellcrooner
01-28-2011, 02:48 PM
And Kobe's 4th Quarter in game 7 was pretty damn decent if you ask me:

10 Points
2-5 FG
8-9 FT
1 Assist
4 Rebounds
1 Turnover
1 Foul

Big plays:
8:46 Left - Kobe gets fouled shooting a 3 with the Lakers down 4, makes all 3 FT
5:56 - Kobe gives the Lakers their first 4th quarter lead with 2 FTs
5:36 - Kobe got the defensive rebound, came down a hit a jumper, pushing the lead to 4
3:21 - Kobe hits a FT, pushing the lead to 5
1:01 - Lakers up 3, Kobe assists Artest's 3 pushing the lead to 6
25.7 - After a Ray Allen 3, a missed 3 by Kobe, and an offensive rebound by Gasol, KObe makes 2 FTs to push the lead back to 5.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/17/sports/la-sp-dunleavy-finals-20100618

Klivlend
01-28-2011, 02:48 PM
^^^
Where did you find time for this post. Great research.

madiaz3
01-28-2011, 02:51 PM
Until they somehow start factoring how hard good the other team is, playoff implications, and other important factors, i'm not going to let numbers determine who is the king of clutch

kobe has a higher number of more important shots has been doing it longer than anyone else in the league

Atticus Finch
01-28-2011, 02:52 PM
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/17/sports/la-sp-dunleavy-finals-20100618

Again, this is not a Kobe v Gasol thread. If you think I'm a Gasol hater I'm not, I think the dude has arguably the most unique skill set I've seen from a big man and I absolutely love watching him play. My old roommate is from Barcelona, he and I would watch Laker games and talk about how awesome Kobe and Gasol play together. Can't we all just get along??

Atticus Finch
01-28-2011, 02:55 PM
^^^
Where did you find time for this post. Great research.

Unfortunately it's slow at work, so I decided I'd pull up the play by play from the 4th quarter and check it out myself (I actually love looking at NBA stats). Thanks though, us Greeks have to stick together haha

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 02:58 PM
I tweeted Henry Abbott (and I'm sure he'll reply... :rolleyes: ), asking him why he bent his article on "Kobe isn't the king of clutch" instead of "Melo IS the king of clutch".

I mean really, shouldn't the story be the guys at the top of the list, and not the guys in the middle?

I agree. But he did state numerous times that Kobe is indeed viewed by so many inside and outside the NBA as the king of clutch, so he came in with that angle I suppose

Klivlend
01-28-2011, 03:01 PM
Unfortunately it's slow at work, so I decided I'd pull up the play by play from the 4th quarter and check it out myself (I actually love looking at NBA stats). Thanks though, us Greeks have to stick together haha

haha! I can relate. I'm a bit slow at work as well. But slow Fridays are ok with me.

michael811
01-28-2011, 03:06 PM
You know what bugs me about all of these so called clutch stats. Where is the part where they take into account winning the game. You would think that the most important part of being clutch is doing what it takes to win yet that is never taken into account in these "clutch stats" Winning isn't an accident and its not luck.

Kingz4L
01-28-2011, 03:19 PM
the guy taking the last shot for me is Tyreke Evans..did ya'll see that 50 footer he hit..thats not luck..he practices those lol...serious note I pick Carmelo, like Kobe says "Numbers dont lie"

Chronz
01-28-2011, 03:28 PM
Fail.


No, Epic Fail.


This is like showing that Magic Johnson has NBA leading turnovers for his career, and saying he is not the best ever at his position.


For god sakes if the entire NBA coaches and players think Kobe is the most clutch, he is. It really is that simple.
LOL FAIL

There is literally no connection to your comparison, Magic led the league in assist to go with those turnovers and was a VERY efficient player who made his teammates better. Kobe drags down the Lakers offense more than any other player in clutch situations because he refuses to pass.


You can throw out all the numbers. Kobe is the most clutch player in the NBA, just as Jordan was before him.

Some bench guy like Dan Dickau was probably 2 for 2 lifetime in clutch shots, but that doesn't make him the most clutch.

You also have to take into account the difficulty of such shots. EVERYONE knows Kobe and Jordan were getting the ball, yet they still were able to create and hit circus shots with the game on the line--sometimes with 2 or 3 seconds on the clock.

Down by 1, with four seconds left, who would YOU want taking the shot? Most folks would say Kobe.
LMFAO Whats MJ's % vs Kobes since your so hell bent on comparing the 2


Kobe is the most clutch player obviously,why do you think he was trusted to take so many of those shots,just as jordan,he didn't have the highest percentage either,i bet if u had to pick any two players in nba history to take the big shot,u bet your *** i'm picking mj or kobe,kobe has five rings to prove how clutch he is, jordan has six, espn is just a bunch of heat lovers & kobe haters,this is a joke.
Since your talking as if you know your ****, what was MJ's %?


btw ive never understood why nba defenses ALLOW clutch plays.

It amazes me.

Close game 60 seconds and players from both team let the attacks run plays and attempt shots.


In Fiba basket games that are close in the last minute become a 10 minute show of Intentional fouls Free throws and time outs.
You barely ever see a "last clutch shot"
Either FIBA coaches are ******** or their defense in crunch time sucks, free throws are much more likely to go in than a shot against NBA defenses.




You know what bugs me about all of these so called clutch stats. Where is the part where they take into account winning the game. You would think that the most important part of being clutch is doing what it takes to win yet that is never taken into account in these "clutch stats" Winning isn't an accident and its not luck.
The Lakers have the biggest drop off in TEAM EFFICIENCY in clutch situations.


Clutch isn't measured in stats. You can't break it down with per. There's no mathmatic equation for it. The bottom line is when the game is on the line who is the player every coach would give it to and every opposing team fears? Everyone in the league says Kobe Bryant.

I wish people would quit trying to use skewed stats to prove a point and just actually watch this guy play. You're missing out on one of the best to ever do it!
You can measure clutch situations by whatever definition you want and come to the same conclusion. There is now skewed stat, these are representations of whether or not Kobe makes the shots he creates, the facts are when you watch the game you see that he MISSES ALOT.

SteBO
01-28-2011, 03:31 PM
LOL FAIL

There is literally no connection to your comparison, Magic led the league in assist to go with those turnovers and was a VERY efficient player who made his teammates better. Kobe drags down the Lakers offense more than any other player in clutch situations because he refuses to pass.


LMFAO Whats MJ's % vs Kobes since your so hell bent on comparing the 2


Since your talking as if you know your ****, what was MJ's %?


Either FIBA coaches are ******** or their defense in crunch time sucks, free throws are much more likely to go in than a shot against NBA defenses.




The Lakers have the biggest drop off in TEAM EFFICIENCY in clutch situations.


You can measure clutch situations by whatever definition you want and come to the same conclusion. There is now skewed stat, these are representations of whether or not Kobe makes the shots he creates, the facts are when you watch the game you see that he MISSES ALOT.

Everyone misses a lot in clutch situations. That's the way the NBA is, so what's your point, with all due respect?

Chronz
01-28-2011, 03:35 PM
Everyone misses a lot in clutch situations. That's the way the NBA is, so what's your point, with all due respect?

Not everyone does the following;



The Lakers are not among the league leaders in crunch time offense -- instead they're just about average, scoring 82.35 points per 100 possessions in a league that averages 80.03. They are, however, among the league leaders in how much worse their offense declines in crunch time.

A great offensive team performing at average levels, with a star setting records for number of shots attempted. Teammates left wide open. Evidence, even, that Bryant's play puts his team into nailbiters that needn't be so close.

That, my friends, is a ballhog.

SteBO
01-28-2011, 03:38 PM
Not everyone does the following;

Ok. I got ya. I didn't quite understand. THX.

Da Knicks
01-28-2011, 03:43 PM
Kobe to me is one of the most overrated players of all time, playing with other great players gives you rings to cover that arguement. Kobe is a great player but one of the luckiest too, he could of easily being in Mcgradys shoes if he would of being stuck on any other team but the lakers.

THE GIPPER
01-28-2011, 03:43 PM
Melo ftw.......literally

Sactown
01-28-2011, 03:56 PM
Phil Jacksons approach was rather interesting.. trading Kobe

gbrl
01-28-2011, 04:08 PM
I agree. But he did state numerous times that Kobe is indeed viewed by so many inside and outside the NBA as the king of clutch, so he came in with that angle I suppose

i like the approach what better way to debunk the supposed king of clutch

Baller1
01-28-2011, 04:13 PM
Wow, did not expect to Rashard Lewis so high on the list.

gbrl
01-28-2011, 04:21 PM
Wow, did not expect to Rashard Lewis so high on the list.

agree. i remember that fade away 3 from the playoffs last year or year before although i think they still lost

ManRam
01-28-2011, 04:23 PM
How long have I been begging for this! Great find Hawkeye.

Hallelujah!


I swear for years now that I've been saying that I don't care how many he makes without seeing how many he's attempted. Now we have it. People will continue to be naive and refuse to admit it, but the proof is in the pudding now. 36 doesn't look too good with that 115 next to it.

Lake_Show2416
01-28-2011, 04:35 PM
Kobe to me is one of the most overrated players of all time, playing with other great players gives you rings to cover that arguement. Kobe is a great player but one of the luckiest too, he could of easily being in Mcgradys shoes if he would of being stuck on any other team but the lakers.

Name one team that has won a championship with just 1 star

even MJ didnt win till he got Pippen

Sometimes a player is great regardless of what situation they are put in.... Kobe falls under that category

Kobe n Pau
Kobe n Shaq
Rondo, Allen, Pierce n KG
Duncan, Manu and Parker
Rip, Rasheed n ben Wallace, prince n billups
Jordan, Pippen

thats just recently

Kobes a Killer
01-28-2011, 04:38 PM
I'm not even a Lakers fan, and even i know that that article is irrelevant. Clutch means more than just numbers. What's so difficult to understand? Kobe's been clutch in his entire career, so......Kobe.....is.......clutch. Nobody is better than him in that aspect. THE END

Thank you for being humble, I'm a huge Kobe fan but that doesnt stop me from saying LeBron is the best player in the world (although Mr. Wade might have something to say about that)

If you attempt 30 game winners obviously your % is gonna be higher than the guy who has been in the league for 15 years and has attempted dozens upon dozens of game winning shots. People need to get over the fact that there is only one player to ever be more clutch than Kobe and his name is Michael not LeBron(not even close to being on Kobes level of clutchness)

magichatnumber9
01-28-2011, 04:42 PM
I thought Kobe drove an automatic

Kobes a Killer
01-28-2011, 04:43 PM
Kobe to me is one of the most overrated players of all time, playing with other great players gives you rings to cover that arguement. Kobe is a great player but one of the luckiest too, he could of easily being in Mcgradys shoes if he would of being stuck on any other team but the lakers.

:facepalm::facepalm:
Hate at its finest

umm in mcgradys shoes??? I guess you seem to have forgotten the few year of horror after the team was gutted, oh and he avg 35 a game one of those years, first player since jordan to do so.

You can hate all you want, but luck has nothing to do with how great Kobe is/has been

ManRam
01-28-2011, 04:44 PM
Kelly Dwyer on this...


Kobe in the clutch, again
By Kelly Dwyer

The internet is ablaze. Which is odd, for a Friday.

But Kobe Bryant(notes) will do that. To a non-NBA fan, he's the popular guy with the bad reputation. To a Lakers fan, he's the reason your life has been so wonderful for the last 15 years. To an NBA freak, he's the guy that you respect, even while you're constantly having to downplay his influence on the end of games.

The "clutch" argument. That stupid "clutch" argument. As if one pattern, in the last five minutes of a close game, repeats itself the next time the last five minutes of a close game pops up.

Here's what does repeat itself: Kobe, shooting jumpers poorly, in the final minutes of a game. You can't argue that. You can remember the makes all you want, they were loads of fun, but you cannot dismiss the history that tells you that Kobe Bryant shoots a ton of jumpers in the last few minutes of games, with a success rate that has to be seen to be believed.

Those who have seen it, believe it. Those that haven't, usually don't. No issues there.
Quite a few that have seen it, though, refuse to believe it. Therein lies our problem.
It started as Henry Abbott's problem, as he exhaustively pointed out Bryant's shortcomings in late-game situations throughout his career. Zach Lowe then added to the chorus, expertly. And there's not much I can add beyond telling you to take in the must-read stylings of these two giants, because I've seen these games, and the post-game documentation tends to reflect what I've seen.

What I do need to bring up is the usual last vestige of the "what do you know?" scoundrel. Those yearly polls that ask NBA general managers various barroom questions, with typical results. An important point to bring up, as we move closer to the trade deadline, and 32,000 "what are you doing?" columns coming from this keyboard.

Let's quote Henry, ‘ere:


In that same G.M. survey, for instance, John Wall(notes) was a heavy favorite to beat Blake Griffin(notes) for rookie of the year. Kevin Durant(notes) was a slam dunk to win this year's MVP.

In that player poll, Chauncey Billups(notes) got the second-most votes as the preferred go-to crunch-time scorer. Billups is three of 27 with the game on the line over the last five seasons. Dead last in the whole NBA among those who have attempted at least 15 shots.

None of that means anyone is dumb. Instead it means that reputation is a huge factor, and it's beyond anyone to remember and catalog 7,000 or so shots in your head.

Well, I suppose that despite this worrying batch of gray hair that dots my 30-year old head, I'm still a petulant brat with a laptop, calling people "dumb," and meaning it.

Because if you don't know by now, and you're charged with running an NBA team? Well, what would you call it? How would you term staying ignorant on purpose? Ignoring the same things that punk with the keyboard can pull up in seconds, before you write "Kobe Bryant" in that survey response?

The first exhaustive study on late game play came out around this time, back in 2006. And even before 82games.com set a yearly debate off regarding Kobe's clutchosity, those who obsessed over their League Pass knew that Carmelo Anthony(notes), for whatever reason, seemed to have the touch when it came to either putting a game away late, or nailing a game-winner with his team down a point. This is before Chauncey Billups rode into town, mind you.

Kobe hit a few game-winners in the playoffs that year, though. And that was enough. National TV will do that to people. The pattern sustained, for a few years, which allowed people to ignore the scads of information that tells you that Kobe shoots a lot in the clutch, he doesn't make his shots all that often, and he never passes (one assist, in five years; though this is somehow admirable to some people). There's always that double-pump shot that goes in at the buzzer, which allows you to forget those other double-pump shots at the buzzer that don't fall in. Or those double-pump shots with 12 seconds to go that don't fall, shots that give the other team a chance to win.

And to the punters, we bring this up because we hate Kobe. So, so much.

And I'm here to tell you to stop. We don't hate Kobe. We just watch a lot of basketball. Tons of it. And when there's no live basketball to watch, we go online to read things about basketball. And often, the things we read match up with the hours of basketball we took in the night before. Findings that might not always pair up with the one game featuring your favorite team, that you took in the night before. Or the one game a week, pitched on a Sunday afternoon, that you took in during your busy week.

That's why you read us. Because we've wasted our lives on this nonsense. And your car is nicer, your complexion smoother, and you don't have to nap at odd hours.

But when it comes time to separate what you've seen, from what paid observers have seen, you seem loath to do as much. And this is where you have to take a step back.

Call it elitism, and I'll point out that we've done the work. This is Toy Department work, I fully submit, but we have done the work. And though you have a pretty good idea of where that noise is coming from deep inside your engine bay, and you've researched enough online to possibly diagnose the problem with your persistent cough, you still should probably give the pros the benefit of the doubt when a disagreement pops up.

And we are the pros. You don't want to be like us, constantly having to defend your credibility and initial instincts, but a lot of us are the guys to go to. Because, while you were out living (enviable) normal lives, we've put in the work at this ridiculous gig.
This doesn't mean you can't tell us what's what. We're bound to miss something. We'll see something during the Rockets game, and miss the game-changing element of the Grizzlies game, and we need you to tell us what happened during that Grizzlies game. We want you to tell us that, because we don't want to look a fool.

Which brings us back to the GM aspect of it all.

These men put in the work. Their jobs aren't limited to considering trades all day and mapping out ways to avoid the luxury tax two years from now. A GM's gig goes beyond transactions, and player personnel. And GMs know this game.

But if 79 percent of them are telling you that they want Kobe Bryant to shoot the last shot in an NBA game, in spite of years and hundreds of shots worth of influence that tells you that there are many, many players beyond Bryant that should be taking that shot? Then we're allowed to question them. If they haven't put the work in to pay attention to a yearly report that tells you that Kobe shoots a ton in the clutch, and doesn't make shots in the clutch at a rate that holds up to that of a "clutch" player? Or if they have read it, and decide to ignore THE ACTUAL THINGS THAT KEEP HAPPENING IN BASKETBALL GAMES?

Then we're allowed to question. The same as you are, with me, if I point to something in the Grizzlies game the other night that flat-out did not happen. Whether I imagined it, or saw it and decided to ignore it and lean on the opposite for an anecdote.

This isn't bias. It might come as a shock, but we don't know what we want to write about, before the things we have to write about actually unfold. And we don't do it for hits. Henry, Zach, myself? We write for ESPN, SI, and Yahoo!, and the hits are going to be there. We've got the big gigs, we feel very fortunate as a result, and we don't need to troll.

But we do need to get it right. And if that smacks of pretension or ignorance to you, then it might be time to take a step back. Because Glen, down at the garage, might have a better idea as to where that squeak is coming from, no matter how reliable those Toyotas may seem.

That first bolded part is what I've been saying for years. The rest is definitely worth the read, but don't feel like bolding the many things I want to.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Kobe-in-the-clutch-again?urn=nba-313858&print=1

Kobes a Killer
01-28-2011, 04:50 PM
@ManRam
You gotta take em to make em, it's tough when millions of people know you're gonna be the one to take the last shot

Ya he's attempted a boat load but i'd love to see anyone elses stats after attempting 115

He simply does what no one besides Jordan could

I mean you have facts on your side so its hard to argue against you, but another fact is Kobe has the most game winners of all time (i'm pretty sure he just passed Jordan last year, correct me if i'm wrong)

StriveGreatness
01-28-2011, 04:54 PM
A lot of Kobe haters. Kobe is the most clutch player in the NBA, period.

1. Kobe




2. Melo
3. Durant

Kashmir13579
01-28-2011, 04:55 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/TrueHoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time


Not creating this for any other reason than to show updated information on Kobe's clutch play. You can clearly see what many of us have been saying a long time. There are players more clutch than Kobe.

wait hawkeye, this thread should've been called "Carmelo Anthony: the most clutch player in NBA history" :laugh2:

PrettyBoyJ
01-28-2011, 04:56 PM
Whats with the Kobe hate.. there's no doubt he's clutch. His will power alone being able to take over a game offensively speaks for its self..

Kashmir13579
01-28-2011, 04:56 PM
kobe misses 4th quarter free throws in the playoffs and Finals; nobody remembers those. i do.

Kobes a Killer
01-28-2011, 04:59 PM
kobe misses 4th quarter free throws in the playoffs and Finals; nobody remembers those. i do.

Name one player who is 100% from the free throw line

Sasha hit those clutch free throws last year in game 7 soooo Sasha>Kobe???

Lake_Show2416
01-28-2011, 05:06 PM
kobe misses 4th quarter free throws in the playoffs and Finals; nobody remembers those. i do.

I just remember NY chanting MVP MVP MVP.. when he's on the line

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 05:08 PM
@ManRam
You gotta take em to make em, it's tough when millions of people know you're gonna be the one to take the last shot

Ya he's attempted a boat load but i'd love to see anyone elses stats after attempting 115

He simply does what no one besides Jordan could

I mean you have facts on your side so its hard to argue against you, but another fact is Kobe has the most game winners of all time (i'm pretty sure he just passed Jordan last year, correct me if i'm wrong)

and by far the most attempts. So?

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 05:09 PM
wait hawkeye, this thread should've been called "Carmelo Anthony: the most clutch player in NBA history" :laugh2:

I can honestly say my answer to, "Who do you want taking the last shot?", has been Melo for years. Its one of the things he does very well.

Kashmir13579
01-28-2011, 05:10 PM
Name one player who is 100% from the free throw line

Sasha hit those clutch free throws last year in game 7 soooo Sasha>Kobe???
yea sasha>kobe. whatever you'd like me to say, kobes a killer. this thread is about "Kobe's clutch" and i'm pretty sure free throws late in the game fall into that category.

I just remember NY chanting MVP MVP MVP.. when he's on the line

and thats relevant to this thread how?

Kobes a Killer
01-28-2011, 05:11 PM
I can honestly say my answer to, "Who do you want taking the last shot?", has been Melo for years. Its one of the things he does very well.

LOL come on man, although i agree Melo is top 5-6 in clutch situations in recent years i would take Kobe Durant Wade over him easily so maybe he's 4th actually

Kashmir13579
01-28-2011, 05:11 PM
I can honestly say my answer to, "Who do you want taking the last shot?", has been Melo for years. Its one of the things he does very well.

haha nice, man. it gives me joy to hear you say something positive about my CUSE boy. :)

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 05:12 PM
LOL come on man, although i agree Melo is top 5-6 in clutch situations in recent years i would take Kobe Durant Wade over him easily so maybe he's 4th actually

its right there in the article. Melo hits the best percentage in the game over the past tons of years on those shots. So I will take a guy who has a 47.7% chance of making it over a guy who has a 30% chance.

The one thing I would like to see is the attempts below 30 (some of the youngens haven't had that many yet) posted.

Kobes a Killer
01-28-2011, 05:13 PM
and by far the most attempts. So?

It's simple math, you attempt 115 you're going to obviously have a lower % than the dude who has only taken 30. I really dislike when people use stats, ya its easy to sit behind those stats and deny the real truth, there's a reason these people are GMs in the nba and they all want Kobe taking the last shot if he was on their team, there's also a reason why no players want the ball in Kobes hands at the end of the game (when they have to be guarding him lol, obviously Kobes teammates want the ball in his hands). But you go ahead and sit behind your stats like a scared little boy... Melo is the most clutch???:facepalm:

handle
01-28-2011, 05:15 PM
When the game on the line Kobe is ALWAYS, 100% of the time, the #1, if not ONLY, focus of a team's defense. And he still hits the shots. The other players, many of them very good, some of them are great, but I guarantee you they don't get the same kind of attention that Kobe gets with the game on the line. Most, if not all, of them don't have three defenders hanging on them when their shot goes up.

Kobe voted most clutch by coaches 9 years in a row (something like that). The ones who gear their entire defense towards him in crunch time are the ones voting him most clutch. It comes down to who do you trust? Experienced, professional coaches who devise defenses to try to stop Kobe on a daily basis, or some spiteful BSPN stat geek with an agenda?

GSwarriors4LIFE
01-28-2011, 05:15 PM
Kobe haters STFU!!! If any of you knit pick this dude and make a big a deal about his mistakes or point out his flaws needs to get a life. He is the best thing that has happened to this league since Jordan retired. Dude is clutch and can get it going whenever he wants!!! Ya and this is coming from a warriors fan....

Kobes a Killer
01-28-2011, 05:16 PM
its right there in the article. Melo hits the best percentage in the game over the past tons of years on those shots. So I will take a guy who has a 47.7% chance of making it over a guy who has a 30% chance.

The one thing I would like to see is the attempts below 30 (some of the youngens haven't had that many yet) posted.

Alright man there's simply no reasoning with a statistics whore, send me a mesage in 10 years when Melos % has dropped to 30% himself

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 05:18 PM
Alright man there's simply no reasoning with a statistics whore, send me a mesage in 10 years when Melos % has dropped to 30% himself

um, its right there. What kind of defense, or excuses, are Kobe fans going to come up with now? Its in plain text. It couldn't be any easier to understand.
It even points out how easily influenced people are from a few key shots, while all the while they disregard the constant misses. Its not just you, or the general fan, its men who get paid to construct teams. This is why stats are indeed necessary to measure this.

Kashmir13579
01-28-2011, 05:19 PM
It's simple math, you attempt 115 you're going to obviously have a lower % than the dude who has only taken 30. I really dislike when people use stats, ya its easy to sit behind those stats and deny the real truth, there's a reason these people are GMs in the nba and they all want Kobe taking the last shot if he was on their team, there's also a reason why no players want the ball in Kobes hands at the end of the game (when they have to be guarding him lol, obviously Kobes teammates want the ball in his hands). But you go ahead and sit behind your stats like a scared little boy... Melo is the most clutch???:facepalm:

i'm sorry but your not yet ready to debate with Hawkeye. i was at this point once upon a time. get your post game up.

let me give you a little hint: if you don't have any argument that goes beyond your personal opinion, don't even bother quoting him; he has stats and a plethora of knowledge backing up his statements. take my advice or don't; but Hawkeye has made me look like a fool when i made the same mistakes you have.

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 05:19 PM
It's simple math, you attempt 115 you're going to obviously have a lower % than the dude who has only taken 30. I really dislike when people use stats, ya its easy to sit behind those stats and deny the real truth, there's a reason these people are GMs in the nba and they all want Kobe taking the last shot if he was on their team, there's also a reason why no players want the ball in Kobes hands at the end of the game (when they have to be guarding him lol, obviously Kobes teammates want the ball in his hands). But you go ahead and sit behind your stats like a scared little boy... Melo is the most clutch???:facepalm:

b.s. But yes, when you take stupid attempts that you shouldn't be taking, your damn right your percentage will fall.

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 05:21 PM
When the game on the line Kobe is ALWAYS, 100% of the time, the #1, if not ONLY, focus of a team's defense. And he still hits the shots. The other players, many of them very good, some of them are great, but I guarantee you they don't get the same kind of attention that Kobe gets with the game on the line. Most, if not all, of them don't have three defenders hanging on them when their shot goes up.

Kobe voted most clutch by coaches 9 years in a row (something like that). The ones who gear their entire defense towards him in crunch time are the ones voting him most clutch. It comes down to who do you trust? Experienced, professional coaches who devise defenses to try to stop Kobe on a daily basis, or some spiteful BSPN stat geek with an agenda?

and he misses a ton more. If he has all that attention, why not kick it out or in to a wide open player? If Kobe gets all these doubles and triples you guys claim to see, there are capable NBA players WIDE open.

There is no agenda, except to debunk the myth of Kobe's clutchness. is he clutch? Oh my god yes. Is he the best in last second situations? Nope. There are better

Hustlenomics
01-28-2011, 05:22 PM
And Kobe's 4th Quarter in game 7 was pretty damn decent if you ask me:

10 Points
2-5 FG
8-9 FT
1 Assist
4 Rebounds
1 Turnover
1 Foul

Big plays:
8:46 Left - Kobe gets fouled shooting a 3 with the Lakers down 4, makes all 3 FT
5:56 - Kobe gives the Lakers their first 4th quarter lead with 2 FTs
5:36 - Kobe got the defensive rebound, came down a hit a jumper, pushing the lead to 4
3:21 - Kobe hits a FT, pushing the lead to 5
1:01 - Lakers up 3, Kobe assists Artest's 3 pushing the lead to 6
25.7 - After a Ray Allen 3, a missed 3 by Kobe, and an offensive rebound by Gasol, KObe makes 2 FTs to push the lead back to 5.

oh yea that was a big play a big ****ing flop :facepalm: ray allen didn't foul him and kobe just swung his arms through ray's and stupid joey crawford brings him to the line ..what a momentum killer!

Kobes a Killer
01-28-2011, 05:23 PM
i'm sorry but your not yet ready to debate with Hawkeye. i was at this point once upon a time. get your post game up.

let me give you a little hint: if you don't have any argument that goes beyond your personal opinion, don't even bother quoting him; he has stats and a plethora of knowledge backing up his statements. take my advice or don't; but Hawkeye has made me look like a fool when i made the same mistakes you have.

Hahaha i know man, i hear you loud and clear, he's obviously well educated, but like i said its easy when he just sits behind stats, but a lot of people know theres much much much more to basketball than just stats

Ebbs
01-28-2011, 05:24 PM
Yes love it, been saying this for years. People overrate his clutchness due to the amount of times he has taken the last shot. N ice to have the stats to support the theory.

Hustlenomics
01-28-2011, 05:24 PM
Kobe to me is one of the most overrated players of all time, playing with other great players gives you rings to cover that arguement. Kobe is a great player but one of the luckiest too, he could of easily being in Mcgradys shoes if he would of being stuck on any other team but the lakers.

exactly !!!

Chronz
01-28-2011, 05:26 PM
@ManRam
You gotta take em to make em, it's tough when millions of people know you're gonna be the one to take the last shot

Ya he's attempted a boat load but i'd love to see anyone elses stats after attempting 115

He simply does what no one besides Jordan could

I mean you have facts on your side so its hard to argue against you, but another fact is Kobe has the most game winners of all time (i'm pretty sure he just passed Jordan last year, correct me if i'm wrong)

Why take em when you miss so many of them?

He simply does what not even MJ would do, outright refusal to create the highest % shot possible.

Of course Kobe has the most game winners, he loves the moment and shot at glory more than he loves making the right play. Hes also not as good at putting away games long before a final shot is necessary.

Kashmir13579
01-28-2011, 05:27 PM
Hahaha i know man, i hear you loud and clear, he's obviously well educated, but like i said its easy when he just sits behind stats, but a lot of people know theres much much much more to basketball than just stats

yes, Hawkeye is definitely aware of that.

i really don't think you hear me loud and clear. whatever bro just trying to help you out. :)

Kobes a Killer
01-28-2011, 05:27 PM
and he misses a ton more. If he has all that attention, why not kick it out or in to a wide open player? If Kobe gets all these doubles and triples you guys claim to see, there are capable NBA players WIDE open.

There is no agenda, except to debunk the myth of Kobe's clutchness. is he clutch? Oh my god yes. Is he the best in last second situations? Nope. There are better

I only have one example, but they may have not beaten Orlando in that one game when Fish was hitting clutch 3s had Kobe not passed him the ball twice and tried to do it all himself.

Also when Kobe took 2 bad shots last year for game winners against OKC and PHX theres was time left on the clock for a rebound and a put back, and he also had 3 guys running at him and so the Lakers out numbered the other dudes and had a very high % chance of getting the offensive rebound and putting in a chip shot game winner which happened both times. So wheres your stats for that, i bet the percentage of the Lakers completing a game winning FG went through the roof when not only Kobe was attempting the shot but the fact that the Lakers had 4 guys going for an offensive rebound against 2 opponents trying to pull down a potential miss

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 05:28 PM
Hahaha i know man, i hear you loud and clear, he's obviously well educated, but like i said its easy when he just sits behind stats, but a lot of people know theres much much much more to basketball than just stats

yes, I live in a computer and never watch a game....

Cmon. I was making these claims well before these stats were even kept. Now we have proof. As a fan, of course you remember the biggest moments. I remember Beasley's game winner over the Clippers, and Love against the Wiz this year, but those two have missed a crapload more shots that I can't recall all of.

That is WHY we have stats. To show us what we missed or forgot. Of course you can't live purely off stats. Without combining both, you will never see the whole picture.

Chronz
01-28-2011, 05:29 PM
A lot of Kobe haters. Kobe is the most clutch player in the NBA, period.

1. Kobe




2. Melo
3. Durant

I love your argument, PERIOD. Good stuff you sure showed them

Kobes a Killer
01-28-2011, 05:29 PM
OMG OMG OMG now Chronz is putting in his 2 cents, i'm not gonna pretend i know more than you guys, i dont have the time or the resources you guys have so if it will make you happy... You guys win!!

Chronz
01-28-2011, 05:30 PM
its right there in the article. Melo hits the best percentage in the game over the past tons of years on those shots. So I will take a guy who has a 47.7% chance of making it over a guy who has a 30% chance.

The one thing I would like to see is the attempts below 30 (some of the youngens haven't had that many yet) posted.

My only problem with this is that Melo is by far the leader in assisted% on his Game Winners. That should count for something

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 05:31 PM
I only have one example, but they may have not beaten Orlando in that one game when Fish was hitting clutch 3s had Kobe not passed him the ball twice and tried to do it all himself.

Also when Kobe took 2 bad shots last year for game winners against OKC and PHX theres was time left on the clock for a rebound and a put back, and he also had 3 guys running at him and so the Lakers out numbered the other dudes and had a very high % chance of getting the offensive rebound and putting in a chip shot game winner which happened both times. So wheres your stats for that, i bet the percentage of the Lakers completing a game winning FG went through the roof when not only Kobe was attempting the shot but the fact that the Lakers had 4 guys going for an offensive rebound against 2 opponents trying to pull down a potential miss

yes, these are specific examples. The brain is selective. It will remember what made it happy most times over what made it upset. Allllllll those misses just don't come to mind when you are thinking of the number of great plays he did make. And furthermore, the BIGGEST knock on Kobe's "clutch" play, is his teams horrid drop in efficiency in last second moments due to Kobe having complete tunnel vision and not caring to give his team the best opportunity to win.

Chronz
01-28-2011, 05:32 PM
OMG OMG OMG now Chronz is putting in his 2 cents, i'm not gonna pretend i know more than you guys, i dont have the time or the resources you guys have so if it will make you happy... You guys win!!

I put in my 2 cents long before you showed up, lets not act like I just joined the party.

There is no king of clutch and if there is, its not any single player by a wide margin.

SteBO
01-28-2011, 05:34 PM
I put in my 2 cents long before you showed up, lets not act like I just joined the party.

There is no king of clutch and if there is, its not any single player by a wide margin.

Now this I can agree with.

Kobes a Killer
01-28-2011, 05:34 PM
yes, these are specific examples. The brain is selective. It will remember what made it happy most times over what made it upset. Allllllll those misses just don't come to mind when you are thinking of the number of great plays he did make. And furthermore, the BIGGEST knock on Kobe's "clutch" play, is his teams horrid drop in efficiency in last second moments due to Kobe having complete tunnel vision and not caring to give his team the best opportunity to win.

Yet you fail to agree that it was a smart play taking those two attempts when his teammates clearly out number the other team in the battle for that last key rebound. And trust me i remember plenty of Kobes misses, no ones madder than me when that prick goes 10-30 shooting in a game and what not

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 05:35 PM
My only problem with this is that Melo is by far the leader in assisted% on his Game Winners. That should count for something

great coaching with the proper roster to get him great looks. Quite honestly the Lakers could take a page from it.
Shoot, running pure isolations just in-game is an inefficient way to score. Why should last second situations be any different if there is some time on the clock?

Kashmir13579
01-28-2011, 05:35 PM
My only problem with this is that Melo is by far the leader in assisted% on his Game Winners. That should count for something

why? he hit the shots. who cares if the ball was passed to him. kudos to him then for being a team player and not having to go 1 on 1 (1 on 5) like kobe does so often. just a little confused how him being assisted is a knock on his ability to hit the clutch shot. i get what your saying but how much should it count for? is it worse to move without the ball getting open for the shot or being completely predictable like Kobe?

Sactown
01-28-2011, 05:35 PM
I can honestly say my answer to, "Who do you want taking the last shot?", has been Melo for years. Its one of the things he does very well.

Melo is pure O.. and plays average D so I'd take LBJ with more than 3 and less than 5 and I'd take Melo on just purely the last shot

Chronz
01-28-2011, 05:35 PM
I only have one example, but they may have not beaten Orlando in that one game when Fish was hitting clutch 3s had Kobe not passed him the ball twice and tried to do it all himself.

Also when Kobe took 2 bad shots last year for game winners against OKC and PHX theres was time left on the clock for a rebound and a put back, and he also had 3 guys running at him and so the Lakers out numbered the other dudes and had a very high % chance of getting the offensive rebound and putting in a chip shot game winner which happened both times. So wheres your stats for that, i bet the percentage of the Lakers completing a game winning FG went through the roof when not only Kobe was attempting the shot but the fact that the Lakers had 4 guys going for an offensive rebound against 2 opponents trying to pull down a potential miss

Thats actually a good point one you should alert the like of KDon and Abbott of. When your misses create high% look off of offensive rebounds it should be considered an assist. This is actually quantifiable if anyone wants to take the time, but where do you draw the line, like I remember in the series vs Houston where he airballed a 3 and Shaq got the rebound and slammed it home, that definitely doesnt count right.

Kashmir13579
01-28-2011, 05:36 PM
great coaching with the proper roster to get him great looks. Quite honestly the Lakers could take a page from it.
Shoot, running pure isolations just in-game is an inefficient way to score. Why should last second situations be any different if there is some time on the clock?

Exactly:clap:

Sactown
01-28-2011, 05:36 PM
why? he hit the shots. who cares if the ball was passed to him. kudos to him then for being a team player and not having to go 1 on 1 (1 on 5) like kobe does so often. just a little confused how him being assisted is a knock on his ability to hit the clutch shot. i get what your saying but how much should it count for? is it worse to move without the ball getting open for the shot or being completely predictable like Kobe?

People don't get that moving without the ball is a skill :facepalm:

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 05:36 PM
Yet you fail to agree that it was a smart play taking those two attempts when his teammates clearly out number the other team in the battle for that last key rebound. And trust me i remember plenty of Kobes misses, no ones madder than me when that prick goes 10-30 shooting in a game and what not

I agree Kobe has indeed made some great plays in the clutch. But I also continue to say Kobe takes terrible shots many times, and his team overall suffers badly due to his tunnel vision late in games.

Kobes a Killer
01-28-2011, 05:36 PM
I put in my 2 cents long before you showed up, lets not act like I just joined the party.

There is no king of clutch and if there is, its not any single player by a wide margin.

Obviously i know this, being a member of this site for the last year, i'm just saying damn man, i already have hawkeye busting my balls

Draco
01-28-2011, 05:36 PM
Bring me Abbott and the Wookiee. They will all suffer for this outrage!

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 05:37 PM
Melo is pure O.. and plays average D so I'd take LBJ with more than 3 and less than 5 and I'd take Melo on just purely the last shot

well, as Chronz pointed out, if there is 5-7 seconds for example, Denver won't just chuck it into Melo. They run him off screens until he gets that great look and a distributor gets him the ball in the best position to capitalize

Chronz
01-28-2011, 05:38 PM
why? he hit the shots. who cares if the ball was passed to him. kudos to him then for being a team player and not having to go 1 on 1 (1 on 5) like kobe does so often. just a little confused how him being assisted is a knock on his ability to hit the clutch shot. i get what your saying but how much should it count for? is it worse to move without the ball getting open for the shot or being completely predictable like Kobe?

Well does Kobe have a playmaking threat that can create an open look for him the way Melo has throughout his career? If moving without the ball is a skill independent of teammates then your right, but if its something that can only be done with the right crew around you then it should be considered. What I hold against Kobe is his refusal to be that playmaker for others, but Im not ready to crown Melo for that title either. Whoever that guy is, its someone whos both willing and able to make the shot and deliver the pass.

Kobes a Killer
01-28-2011, 05:40 PM
I agree Kobe has indeed made some great plays in the clutch. But I also continue to say Kobe takes terrible shots many times, and his team overall suffers badly due to his tunnel vision late in games.

I agree, i'm not trying to defend him for the bad shots, but had he never taken all those shots maybe he wouldn't have hit the 6 game winners last year. I'd like to know how many of those misses were halfway in before popping out and how many were simply air balls (not that it matters i guess a miss is a miss) but an air ball is a bad shot, a shot that goes in and out could also be considered a good shot but dang it just took a weird bounce and didnt go in

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 05:40 PM
Well does Kobe have a playmaking threat that can create an open look for him the way Melo has throughout his career? If moving without the ball is a skill independent of teammates then your right, but if its something that can only be done with the right crew around you then it should be considered. What I hold against Kobe is his refusal to be that playmaker for others, but Im not ready to crown Melo for that title either. Whoever that guy is, its someone whos both willing and able to make the shot and deliver the pass.

you just described Michael Jordan.

Sactown
01-28-2011, 05:41 PM
well, as Chronz pointed out, if there is 5-7 seconds for example, Denver won't just chuck it into Melo. They run him off screens until he gets that great look and a distributor gets him the ball in the best position to capitalize

I'm just saying the way you define clutch would change who I'd choose along with the players around him.

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 05:42 PM
I agree, i'm not trying to defend him for the bad shots, but had he never taken all those shots maybe he wouldn't have hit the 6 game winners last year. I'd like to know how many of those misses were halfway in before popping out and how many were simply air balls (not that it matters i guess a miss is a miss) but an air ball is a bad shot, a shot that goes in and out could also be considered a good shot but dang it just took a weird bounce and didnt go in

I myself am guilty many times of being at a Laker game (when they visit Houston), and being terrified when Kobe gets the ball in his hands in tight games. And I should be. But we have information that tells us that in all reality, there is a great chance Kobe and the Lakers will have to win this on defense.

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 05:42 PM
I'm just saying the way you define clutch would change who I'd choose along with the players around him.

oh I don't even have a definition for clutch. i don't think there is one.

Sactown
01-28-2011, 05:42 PM
I agree, i'm not trying to defend him for the bad shots, but had he never taken all those shots maybe he wouldn't have hit the 6 game winners last year. I'd like to know how many of those misses were halfway in before popping out and how many were simply air balls (not that it matters i guess a miss is a miss) but an air ball is a bad shot, a shot that goes in and out could also be considered a good shot but dang it just took a weird bounce and didnt go in

Also I wonder how many of those game winners were bad shots.. because Kobe runs up and chucks it over Wades head while running to his left and it goes in.. does not make it a good shot simply a lucky one

Kobes a Killer
01-28-2011, 05:43 PM
Alright Chronz, Hawkeye... My brain hurts, thanks a lot!!! I'm out

Kashmir13579
01-28-2011, 05:45 PM
Well does Kobe have a playmaking threat that can create an open look for him the way Melo has throughout his career? If moving without the ball is a skill independent of teammates then your right, but if its something that can only be done with the right crew around you then it should be considered. What I hold against Kobe is his refusal to be that playmaker for others, but Im not ready to crown Melo for that title either. Whoever that guy is, its someone whos both willing and able to make the shot and deliver the pass.

well the bolded part is definitely up for debate. but what really makes Denver "the right crew" in comparison to the Lakers? i get that the triangle offense doesn't call for a point guard like that; but, lets not act like Billups and Miller are best known for their distribution. are they better passers than Fisher, lol yea obviously. but Billups more than Miller has never been known as an elite playmaker. so if by "the right crew" you mean that Nene, Billups, Kmart, Afflalo, Smith, etc. are all much better distributers than the Lakers squads, then i see where your coming from. but i don't know that is the case.

Kobes a Killer
01-28-2011, 05:45 PM
Also I wonder how many of those game winners were bad shots.. because Kobe runs up and chucks it over Wades head while running to his left and it goes in.. does not make it a good shot simply a lucky one

LOL ya I agree, but i'd have to say the luck is combined with skill, but yes he is a lucky son of a gun sometimes, but like i said just as unlucky when those shots are halfway in just bounce out, or if you go off back rim as a shooter i know those shots are damn close to going in, and i'm talking half an inch if not less

Kashmir13579
01-28-2011, 05:46 PM
Alright Chronz, Hawkeye... My brain hurts, thanks a lot!!! I'm out

i told ya so

Kobes a Killer
01-28-2011, 05:46 PM
K i'm leaving now, i'm starting to contradict myself a little and i dont like it

Sactown
01-28-2011, 05:47 PM
oh I don't even have a definition for clutch. i don't think there is one.

I'm saying is clutch 5 minutes and less? 24 seconds and less?

Jewelz0376
01-28-2011, 05:48 PM
I''m not going to read thru this whole thread so maybe some of this has been mentioned.

1) Kobe has more than twice as many attempts that Melo....Its like comparing 3 point % when one person has had 40 attempts and the other has had 120...its not a valid comparison...

2) Part of why Kobe is considering at the top because he can just as easily hit a gaming winning 3 as he can 2...compared to Melo who is maybe equal to Kobe if a 2 is needed, but def not on shooting a 3...

Sactown
01-28-2011, 05:48 PM
LOL ya I agree, but i'd have to say the luck is combined with skill, but yes he is a lucky son of a gun sometimes, but like i said just as unlucky when those shots are halfway in just bounce out, or if you go off back rim as a shooter i know those shots are damn close to going in, and i'm talking half an inch if not less

I could agree that Kobes had some heart breakers, but if you take both luck and heart breakers I'm sure it all evens out

championships
01-28-2011, 05:49 PM
He had 7 game winning shots made last season. The most of any player.

GSW Hoops
01-28-2011, 05:53 PM
he piggybacks shaq and gasol..

what did he do without shaq or gasol?
Nothing. so plz stfu

Using your logic:

What has Shaq done without Kobe or Wade?

Jewelz0376
01-28-2011, 05:53 PM
I'm saying is clutch 5 minutes and less? 24 seconds and less?

To me clutch situations is like some describe porn...lol...you know it when you see it...Its hard to use stats to justify who is more clutch or not...There is much more to being a clutch player than what happens in the final 24 secs... For example the Bulls Celtics series a few years ago?? Ray Allen and Ben Gordon were hitting clutch shot after clutch shot..and a lot of them were done outside the last 24 secs, including the overtimes...

GSW Hoops
01-28-2011, 05:56 PM
To me clutch situations is like some describe porn...lol...you know it when you see it...Its hard to use stats to justify who is more clutch or not...There is much more to being a clutch player than what happens in the final 24 secs... For example the Bulls Celtics series a few years ago?? Ray Allen and Ben Gordon were hitting clutch shot after clutch shot..and a lot of them were done outside the last 24 secs, including the overtimes...

I agree. I define "clutch" as making a play when the team really, really needs it, especially in an overtime.

Kashmir13579
01-28-2011, 05:58 PM
Using your logic:

What has Shaq done without Kobe or Wade?

oh i don't know, maybe just being arguably the most dominant player in NBA history. thats all.

Jewelz0376
01-28-2011, 06:03 PM
oh i don't know, maybe just being arguably the most dominant player in NBA history. thats all.

Yea he was so dominant he won how many rings without Kobe or Wade??

Shaq won just as many rings without Kobe/Wade as Kobe did without Shaq/Gasol

kobebabe
01-28-2011, 06:04 PM
This is totally BS. Numbers don't mean much. Give Kobe the ball when the game is online and u know he will deliver. Would u really say the same if any of the guys in those stats had the ball with the game online? Won't u be clenching your teeth hoping he will deliver?

Kashmir13579
01-28-2011, 06:05 PM
Yea he was so dominant he won how many rings without Kobe or Wade??

lmao. ok, dude. Kobe and Wade (when its all said and done) will both be looked at as being as dominant as Shaq in terms of sheer power and numbers.

kgjfan243
01-28-2011, 06:08 PM
For people saying Kobe couldn't do it without Shaq or Gasol, I hate Kobe but you can't deny what he has done. The guy delivers every time. When was the last time someone won a ring single handedly?

Chronz
01-28-2011, 06:11 PM
well the bolded part is definitely up for debate. but what really makes Denver "the right crew" in comparison to the Lakers? i get that the triangle offense doesn't call for a point guard like that; but, lets not act like Billups and Miller are best known for their distribution. are they better passers than Fisher, lol yea obviously. but Billups more than Miller has never been known as an elite playmaker. so if by "the right crew" you mean that Nene, Billups, Kmart, Afflalo, Smith, etc. are all much better distributers than the Lakers squads, then i see where your coming from. but i don't know that is the case.
Sounds complex to assess, you need the bigman setting the screen to also be a threat which most bigs are but most importantly I think you need that playmaker with the ball.

Put it this way, what good will coming off a screen do if the teams will just overplay Kobe anyway? Dont you have to have that threat to score from the perimeter in a stationary set to be able to draw attention away from curler? This is where Billups has always shined, its why he and RIP worked so well.

Playmaking isnt relegated to just distributing(though its definitely the most important), its the combination of being a scoring threat that has to be accounted for along with the passing skills.
Besides I disagree with your assessment

With Billups you have a guy with the range to hit a deep shot with a knack for getting to the line if you give him the lane. That he could score in stationary sets is what allows for off the ball play to thrive. Just look up Richard Hamiltons stats with and without Billups on the floor throughout his career. Hell look at Melo's stats with and without Andre Miller, off the ball scorers are clearly more efficient with dynamic playmakers.

Atticus Finch
01-28-2011, 06:14 PM
oh yea that was a big play a big ****ing flop :facepalm: ray allen didn't foul him and kobe just swung his arms through ray's and stupid joey crawford brings him to the line ..what a momentum killer!

Still bitter? Whether you agree with it being a foul or not, the dude still hit 3 FTs when his team was down 4. Care to elaborate on anything else I wrote or did you just pick out one thing you could provide an opinion (not facts) on? And last time I checked, an offensive player swinging his arms through the arms of a defensive player is a foul, and most guards in the NBA do that stuff on a regular basis, and most of the time it's called a foul. Is this the part where I put a face palm to make your argument seem stupid?

Kobes a Killer
01-28-2011, 06:17 PM
Damn kgjfan243 thats a tight *** in your sig, i'm not into a big fat *** you know? that girl is fine

Heatcheck
01-28-2011, 06:21 PM
notice the vast majority of kobe supporters dont give a solid reason, they just use irony and sarcasm. "he is the best at it because he is", or "all the coaches and players say it", "look at all the rings."

Kashmir13579
01-28-2011, 06:22 PM
Sounds complex to assess, you need the bigman setting the screen to also be a threat which most bigs are but most importantly I think you need that playmaker with the ball.

Put it this way, what good will coming off a screen do if the teams will just overplay Kobe anyway? Dont you have to have that threat to score from the perimeter in a stationary set to be able to draw attention away from curler? This is where Billups has always shined, its why he and RIP worked so well.

Playmaking isnt relegated to just distributing(though its definitely the most important), its the combination of being a scoring threat that has to be accounted for along with the passing skills.
Besides I disagree with your assessment

With Billups you have a guy with the range to hit a deep shot with a knack for getting to the line if you give him the lane. That he could score in stationary sets is what allows for off the ball play to thrive. Just look up Richard Hamiltons stats with and without Billups on the floor throughout his career. Hell look at Melo's stats with and without Andre Miller, off the ball scorers are clearly more efficient with dynamic playmakers.


your definitely looking at it from all angles and i respect your insight, but the fact remains that it isn't Billups MO to make those kind of passes. and offensively, is Billups not one of the most effective PGs off the ball? is Billups more intimidating in regards to drawing fouls and floor spacing than the likes of Odom, Ariza, Artest, Fisher? there are plenty of players on the Lakers capable of scoring from the perimeter and also slashing at a high enough clip.

i'm just gonna come out and say it, Chronz, i have a hard time debating with you because you have so many resources and TOO much bball knowledge for me to contend with. i'm trying my best lol.

Heatcheck
01-28-2011, 06:23 PM
For people saying Kobe couldn't do it without Shaq or Gasol, I hate Kobe but you can't deny what he has done. The guy delivers every time. When was the last time someone won a ring single handedly?

single handedly? you mean going 6-24 in game seven against the celtics? or those terrible shots he took in game 5 and six? thats the problem there. someone give a good point, and the counter point is some outrageous ridiculous statement.

I remmember him single handedly losing the 2004 series by himself

Chronz
01-28-2011, 06:24 PM
I''m not going to read thru this whole thread so maybe some of this has been mentioned.

1) Kobe has more than twice as many attempts that Melo....Its like comparing 3 point % when one person has had 40 attempts and the other has had 120...its not a valid comparison...

2) Part of why Kobe is considering at the top because he can just as easily hit a gaming winning 3 as he can 2...compared to Melo who is maybe equal to Kobe if a 2 is needed, but def not on shooting a 3...
1. Thats why he has to stop shooting so many if the results arent justified. According to the study, the Lakers have one of the biggest drop offs in offensive efficiency from regular possessions to clutch possessions in the league, this is a direct result of Kobes reluctance to create high% looks.

2. Im pretty sure they only took data from instances where the team was down 2 at most

Chronz
01-28-2011, 06:25 PM
Using your logic:

What has Shaq done without Kobe or Wade?

I get what your saying but Shaq has done alot more without either of those guys like make the Finals

kgjfan243
01-28-2011, 06:26 PM
I'm not saying Kobe won a ring single handedly. I'm saying that no one ever has done it, with a few exceptions. Kobe never won by himself, completely agree with you there. I remember in the mid 2000s he couldnt get by the Suns, but that changed when he got some help with the Gasol trade.

Chronz
01-28-2011, 06:28 PM
This is totally BS. Numbers don't mean much. Give Kobe the ball when the game is online and u know he will deliver. Would u really say the same if any of the guys in those stats had the ball with the game online? Won't u be clenching your teeth hoping he will deliver?

I dont believe a word you say

Jewelz0376
01-28-2011, 06:35 PM
1. Thats why he has to stop shooting so many if the results arent justified. According to the study, the Lakers have one of the biggest drop offs in offensive efficiency from regular possessions to clutch possessions in the league, this is a direct result of Kobes reluctance to create high% looks.

2. Im pretty sure they only took data from instances where the team was down 2 at most

1) Is that from just this year or over the last few years?? If its just this season than ok...but if its not than thats a bs stat....There is no way a team that has won back to back titles doesnt perform in clutch...That's what the playoffs are about is executing in the clutch..

2) Yea it says when the team is down 2...but if a player is more of a threat to hit a 3 to win the game when down 2 then he is defended differently..

Atticus Finch
01-28-2011, 06:40 PM
I found this part of the article interesting too:


Over Bryant's 15-year career, the Lakers have had the NBA's best offense, and second-best won-loss record. No other team can match their mighty 109 points per 100 possessions over the entire period.

Since the author defines clutch as being in the last 24 seconds of the game only, that means that for 47 minutes and 38 seconds of every game Kobe is the main force on the most unstoppable offense of the last 15 years. (This isn't 100% serious, just pointing it out).

Anyways, I hate the idea of "clutch" and I always have. Plays made in the 1st quarter can have just as much impact as plays made in the 4th, we just dont focus on them whatsoever because of how much time is left in the game. Example, if Kobe goes 0-10 from the free throw line through the first 3 quarters, then suddenly makes 5-5 in the last minute of a 1 point game, that would be considered clutch. When in reality, if the dude made his FTs in the beginning of the game there is a very good chance they wouldn't be in the same situation at the end of the game. I know this is an example of extremes, its just to get the point across.

Chronz
01-28-2011, 06:41 PM
1) Is that from just this year or over the last few years?? If its just this season than ok...but if its not than thats a bs stat....There is no way a team that has won back to back titles doesnt perform in clutch...That's what the playoffs are about is executing in the clutch..
His entire career

And no the playoffs are about executing before clutch situations ever occur. Great teams dont win close games they avoid them or at the least build a big enough cushion to offset any fluke play down the stretch


2) Yea it says when the team is down 2...but if a player is more of a threat to hit a 3 to win the game when down 2 then he is defended differently..

Yea a player with range should have it easier to create, what matters is what the player does with that talent.

Chronz
01-28-2011, 06:43 PM
I found this part of the article interesting too:



Since the author defines clutch as being in the last 24 seconds of the game only, that means that for 47 minutes and 38 seconds of every game Kobe is the main force on the most unstoppable offense of the last 15 years. (This isn't 100% serious, just pointing it out).

Anyways, I hate the idea of "clutch" and I always have. Plays made in the 1st quarter can have just as much impact as plays made in the 4th, we just dont focus on them whatsoever because of how much time is left in the game. Example, if Kobe goes 0-10 from the free throw line through the first 3 quarters, then suddenly makes 5-5 in the last minute of a 1 point game, that would be considered clutch. When in reality, if the dude made his FTs in the beginning of the game there is a very good chance they wouldn't be in the same situation at the end of the game. I know this is an example of extremes, its just to get the point across.
You are a noble fellow, you understand how irrelevant final plays are in comparison to the truly important figure. The 99% of the other plays necessary to win.

kblo247
01-28-2011, 06:46 PM
great coaching with the proper roster to get him great looks. Quite honestly the Lakers could take a page from it.
Shoot, running pure isolations just in-game is an inefficient way to score. Why should last second situations be any different if there is some time on the clock?

Pau Gasol once said on FSN "late in game Kobe eats first and Fisher eats second" and that Phil Jackson established that to him from day one when he came in by his own admission. Phil wants the ball in the hands of Kobe and Fisher and them taking the shots over Ron or Lamars (in the Smush years). Hell Kobe has been yelled at in the past for giving the ball to Ron for 3s late in games just this year in Utah and last year in Memphis. It isn't just Kobe who isolates, just watch the game versus Boston and Denver last year without him where PJ drew up Fisher isolations to win the game.

It also doesn't help that Pau shrivel ups in the clutch by missing free throws, losing the ball, and throws it back out against a clock he has wasted. People will say well he had that clutch tip in during game 6 versus OKC, but wouldn't it have been actually clutch for him to show up and play well on the road in every series and in that particular game instead of having Kobe carry him there?

Saying simply pass the ball and make the right play is short sided when your coach tells you to make something happen. The fact is Phil is by far more comfortable with Kobe and Fish either winning or losing a game by his own admission than Pau or the other guys because they will let it slide right off of them to the next one instead of letting any failure bother them. That comes down to mental strength and they have always had it. If they were playing with players who had a similar mentality like oh lets say Horry, Fox, and Shaw they would give them the ball as they did for years in that situation because as Horry oh so eloquently put it on the 01 Lakers Championship DVD when talking about them taking shots late in games when Shaq couldn't have the ball "all of us swing big and can live with missing big".

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 06:49 PM
Pau Gasol once said on FSN "late in game Kobe eats first and Fisher eats second" and that Phil Jackson established that to him from day one when he came in by his own admission. Phil wants the ball in the hands of Kobe and Fisher and them taking the shots over Ron or Lamars (in the Smush years). Hell Kobe has been yelled at in the past for giving the ball to Ron for 3s late in games just this year in Utah and last year in Memphis. It isn't just Kobe who isolates, just watch the game versus Boston and Denver last year without him where PJ drew up Fisher isolations to win the game.

It also doesn't help that Pau shrivel ups in the clutch by missing free throws, losing the ball, and throws it back out against a clock he has wasted. People will say well he had that clutch tip in during game 6 versus OKC, but wouldn't it have been actually clutch for him to show up and play well on the road in every series and in that particular game instead of having Kobe carry him there?

Saying simply pass the ball and make the right play is short sided when your coach tells you to make something happen. The fact is Phil is by far more comfortable with Kobe and Fish either winning or losing a game by his own admission than Pau or the other guys because they will let it slide right off of them to the next one instead of letting any failure bother them. That comes down to mental strength and they have always had it. If they were playing with players who had a similar mentality like oh lets say Horry, Fox, and Shaw they would give them the ball as they did for years in that situation because as Horry oh so eloquently put it on the 01 Lakers Championship DVD when talking about them taking shots late in games when Shaq couldn't have the ball "all of us swing big and can live with missing big".

here are some exerts from Phil himself



"I sometimes think Kobe is so addicted to being in control that he would rather shoot the ball when guarded, or even double-teamed, than dish it to an open teammate," Jackson wrote in his 2004 book "The Last Season." "He is saying to himself: how can he trust anyone else? Well, he should learn to trust ..."




However, don't confuse Bryant's domination of the ball with Jackson's endorsement of the plan. In the same book, Jackson tells of his annoyance at Bryant's ballhogging in crunch time. In one instance, he describes drawing up a play with multiple options, in crunch time of a 2004 playoff series against Houston. Bryant destroyed all the options; instead of setting a baseline screen for Shaquille O'Neal he ran straight to the ball. "With the twenty-four-second clock winding down," writes Jackson, "Kobe forced a long jumper, a horrible shot in the game's most critical possession. The ball did not reach the rim..."




Jackson also tells of marching, more than once, into Mitch Kupchak's office to demand that the Lakers trade Bryant. He writes things like:
"Kobe tends to hold on to the ball longer than necessary causing the offense to stagnate."
"He won't listen to anyone. I've had it with this kid."
"As usual, Kobe seemed intent on taking over."





More recently, Jackson's long-time assistant Kurt Rambis, when he still worked for the Lakers, was clear that the coaching staff preferred the team run their ruthlessly efficient triangle, with its passing and cutting, "at all times."

I see lots of evidence that Bryant dominates Laker possessions in crunch time. But I see no evidence it's part of Jackson's plan.

kblo247
01-28-2011, 06:52 PM
You bring up something from 04 to support something now when that whole team was feuding? Even Phil admitted back then when it came down to winning Kobe did just that and changed his whole approach in 01. You are citing him talking about the 00 title run and the 01 start after Shaq came in fat. Phil also pointed out that the team without Kobe leading them in 03 and 04 wouldn't have been good as he had to carry them because of Shaq's constant declining worth ethic on Philosophy 101 :laugh2:

Pau is on record of saying what he was told behind closed doors by Jackson and that Phil always wants the ball in the hands of Kobe/Fish late in games to live or die with. He even says it on the 09 title DVD.

Rambis also talked about his displeasure with Phil's over attachment to Fisher on the radio and wanted him benched back in 09 before the playoffs so I don't give a damn what he likes or wants as his way doesn't win. At the end of the day the only stat that matters is 7 out of the last 11 Finals appearances and 5 titles, you know actual winning.

Atticus Finch
01-28-2011, 06:53 PM
exactly !!!

Using this logic, lets determine whether or not Bill Russell was a great player, or just a lucky one. Here's a small list of some of the players he got to play with:

KC Jones
Bob Cousy
Bill Sharman
John Havlicek
Sam Jones
Tom Heinsohn
Bailey Howell
Clyde Lovelette
Andy Phillip
Arnie Risen
Frank Ramsey

What do all of these eleven players have in common? ALL of them were elected to the Hall of Fame. Now, using the old "let's switch players" argument, let's switch Wilt and Russell. If that was the case, Micheal Jordon would be general consensus #2 greatest player of all time, behind Wilt.

By the way I'm not actually arguing that Russell was just lucky, he's without a doubt one of the greatest players ever. My point is that you can't penalize someone for who they play with, you have to respect each person for what they bring to a team.

Jewelz0376
01-28-2011, 06:54 PM
His entire career

And no the playoffs are about executing before clutch situations ever occur. Great teams dont win close games they avoid them or at the least build a big enough cushion to offset any fluke play down the stretch


lol...Teams don't win titles not executing down the stretch...I don't even get how anyone could argue this..

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 07:00 PM
You bring up something from 04 to support something now when that whole team was feuding? Even Phil admitted back then when it came down to winning Kobe did just that and changed his whole approach in 01. You are citing him talking about the 00 title run and the 01 start after Shaq came in fat. Phil also pointed out that the team without Kobe leading them in 03 and 04 wouldn't have been good as he had to carry them because of Shaq's constant declining worth ethic on Philosophy 101 :laugh2:

Pau is on record of saying what he was told behind closed doors by Jackson and that Phil always wants the ball in the hands of Kobe/Fish late in games to live or die with. He even says it on the 09 title DVD.

Rambis also talked about his displeasure with Phil's over attachment to Fisher on the radio and wanted him benched back in 09 before the playoffs so I don't give a damn what he likes or wants as his way doesn't win. At the end of the day the only stat that matters is 7 out of the last 11 Finals appearances and 5 titles, you know actual winning.


So are we measuring Kobe's inefficiencies in the clutch in 2 sections, pre 2005 and post for example?
Phil's words, not mine.

Chronz
01-28-2011, 07:01 PM
lol...Teams don't win titles not executing down the stretch...I don't even get how anyone could argue this..
I dont believe you

Atticus Finch
01-28-2011, 07:03 PM
You are a noble fellow, you understand how irrelevant final plays are in comparison to the truly important figure. The 99% of the other plays necessary to win.

Obviously last second shots are some of our greatest memories as fans, but I'm glad that we agree they aren't necessarily the most important. 2 points is 2 points regardless of when it's scored. In my opinion, clutch players are ones that perform when their backs are against the wall and their team has to win. Clutch players have big games, not big isolated moments than span 5-6 seconds.

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 07:06 PM
For these stats "Clutch" is defined as: 4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points.

Production per 48 Minutes of Clutch Time
Team Player Gm Min +/- +/- Fga Fg% 3pA 3p% Fta Ft% Pts Ast'd Reb Ast T/o Blk Stl
LAL Bryant 15 54 -10 -9 34.7 .385 12.4 .214 26.7 89% 53.3 20% 4.4 8.9 5.3 0.0 1.8
DAL Nowitzki 18 66 59 +43 25.6 .600 2.2 .333 21.2 89% 50.5 33% 13.9 5.1 7.3 0.7 1.5
NYK Stoudemire 21 78 10 +6 30.6 .560 3.7 .500 15.3 75% 47.8 57% 8.6 1.8 4.9 4.3 0.0
OKC Westbrook 20 102 53 +25 29.2 .468 1.9 .250 21.2 93% 47.6 10% 10.4 5.2 2.4 0.9 0.9
CHA Thomas 15 40 11 +13 23.9 .600 0.0 .000 21.5 72% 44.1 83% 15.5 1.2 2.4 4.8 3.6
DEN Anthony 18 53 -9 -8 33.2 .459 2.7 .000 16.2 83% 44.0 47% 10.8 0.9 7.2 0.9 1.8
GSW Ellis 21 59 -4 -3 25.2 .452 3.2 .000 25.2 80% 43.0 14% 4.1 3.2 2.4 0.0 2.4
PHO Richardson 12 59 34 +27 31.5 .462 12.9 .375 10.5 84% 42.9 72% 7.3 0.0 0.8 0.8 0.8
OKC Durant 17 73 51 +34 30.3 .391 5.9 .111 20.4 90% 42.8 44% 15.1 2.6 3.3 2.6 1.3
DAL Terry 21 72 59 +39 24.0 .583 8.0 .583 8.7 100% 41.4 66% 4.0 4.0 3.3 0.0 2.7

This is for the 2010-11 season according to 82games.com

So Kobe isn't clutch? Uhm, think again.

Many people have been using 82games.com stats to discredit Kobe's clutch ability and to place him under other players. Now this season he is ahead of the pack, again.

Save it.

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 07:10 PM
I just provided stats from 82games that proves KObe is the most clutch player in the NBA TODAYYYY! since people hate when bringin up Kobe's past accomplishments there it is there.

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 07:11 PM
Hawkeye always has something to say about Kobe.

kblo247
01-28-2011, 07:11 PM
So are we measuring Kobe's inefficiencies in the clutch in 2 sections, pre 2005 and post for example?
Phil's words, not mine.

I would like to see that if you had the data as he and Fish get put in strictly iso ball late in games now. It even got compounded in the games he missed last year and they lost as they went to Fisher isos versus Boston and Denver off the top of my head for the last 2-3 minutes because Phil is more comfortable with putting them in positions to either win or fail because of their mentality by his own admission

I'm not dismissing the fact that the volume to conversion ratio isn't good. I am saying that they are two totally different scenarios the teams play under late in games now as the first three peat team had shooters for Kobe to drive and kick to all across the board late in games be they Fisher, Fox, Horry, Shaw, or George. These Lakers main weakness in recent times and just last year is that the only guy who is semi reliable from deep is Fisher and like Shaq, Phil doesn't like how Pau produces late offensively.

The advanced stats have meaning but they aren't the beat all, end all as the end result speaks for itself. As the main facilitator, primary scorer now or 1B scorer during the Shaq years, and for the long time main defensive player against the best weapon Kobe produces and wins. The fact is by doing his job throughout he puts his team in a position to win. Does he take bad shots or go through possessions where he feels he can't trust others? Yes. Does that sometime result in losses? Yes. Is there a player in this current era who has carried the same weight for the same amount of time and won anywhere close to as much? Nope. That is why I say I'll take Kobe and the end result he and his faults have brought, which is 7 out of the last 11 finals and 5 rings to my team.

Plus I also think you need to expand clutch to look deeper at both spans as I would argue that it was clutch of Kobe to dominate teams out west per the game plan during the first three peat (especially in 01) so that Shaq could conserve energy and be unleashed on the East in the Finals. I think it is clutch of him to be the only Laker besides Fisher that upped his production on the road in every round of last years postseason, when the other core players all saw their averages and efficiency drop on the road in every series but Utah. Do you agree or disagree with that?

Bruno
01-28-2011, 07:12 PM
FGM/FGA isn't the sole factor in determining clutch play. What about defense, rebounding, and hustle plays when it matters most? Where are those stats? They probably aren't tracked. I'd love to see them if they are.

Jewelz0376
01-28-2011, 07:12 PM
I dont believe you

:rolleyes:

Da Knicks
01-28-2011, 07:14 PM
Obviously i know this, being a member of this site for the last year, i'm just saying damn man, i already have hawkeye busting my balls

dude im not a hater, i give kobe respect but he is overrated.

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 07:15 PM
WHy not just address clutch stats pertaining to TODAY?! Kobe still leads the pack.

Jewelz0376
01-28-2011, 07:16 PM
FGM/FGA isn't the sole factor in determining clutch play. What about defense, rebounding, and hustle plays when it matters most? Where are those stats? They probably aren't tracked. I'd love to see them if they are.

There are so many things that go into being a "clutch player" like some of the things you just mentioned....That its pretty much impossible to use stats...To me who is clutch or not is more a matter of opinion than anything else...like i said in another post...you know a clutch play/player when you see it

Chronz
01-28-2011, 07:19 PM
I just provided stats from 82games that proves KObe is the most clutch player in the NBA TODAYYYY! since people hate when bringin up Kobe's past accomplishments there it is there.

So you think shooting 38% and 21% from 3 to go with a 8.3/5.3 Ast/TO rate while being outscored is clutch?

gbrl
01-28-2011, 07:19 PM
For these stats "Clutch" is defined as: 4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points.

Production per 48 Minutes of Clutch Time
Team Player Gm Min +/- +/- Fga Fg% 3pA 3p% Fta Ft% Pts Ast'd Reb Ast T/o Blk Stl
LAL Bryant 15 54 -10 -9 34.7 .385 12.4 .214 26.7 89% 53.3 20% 4.4 8.9 5.3 0.0 1.8
DAL Nowitzki 18 66 59 +43 25.6 .600 2.2 .333 21.2 89% 50.5 33% 13.9 5.1 7.3 0.7 1.5
NYK Stoudemire 21 78 10 +6 30.6 .560 3.7 .500 15.3 75% 47.8 57% 8.6 1.8 4.9 4.3 0.0
OKC Westbrook 20 102 53 +25 29.2 .468 1.9 .250 21.2 93% 47.6 10% 10.4 5.2 2.4 0.9 0.9
CHA Thomas 15 40 11 +13 23.9 .600 0.0 .000 21.5 72% 44.1 83% 15.5 1.2 2.4 4.8 3.6
DEN Anthony 18 53 -9 -8 33.2 .459 2.7 .000 16.2 83% 44.0 47% 10.8 0.9 7.2 0.9 1.8
GSW Ellis 21 59 -4 -3 25.2 .452 3.2 .000 25.2 80% 43.0 14% 4.1 3.2 2.4 0.0 2.4
PHO Richardson 12 59 34 +27 31.5 .462 12.9 .375 10.5 84% 42.9 72% 7.3 0.0 0.8 0.8 0.8
OKC Durant 17 73 51 +34 30.3 .391 5.9 .111 20.4 90% 42.8 44% 15.1 2.6 3.3 2.6 1.3
DAL Terry 21 72 59 +39 24.0 .583 8.0 .583 8.7 100% 41.4 66% 4.0 4.0 3.3 0.0 2.7

This is for the 2010-11 season according to 82games.com

So Kobe isn't clutch? Uhm, think again.

Many people have been using 82games.com stats to discredit Kobe's clutch ability and to place him under other players. Now this season he is ahead of the pack, again.

Save it.

worst fg% of the bunch

knightstemplar
01-28-2011, 07:24 PM
is lebron even on the list

knightstemplar
01-28-2011, 07:25 PM
in that bunch kobe has 5 rings, and the rest have 0

championships
01-28-2011, 07:28 PM
Haters wil hate. Nothing you can do. All I know is my favorite, lifetime, basketball team is winning more ships than any other team and Kobe is a big reason why. Not to mention climbing the all time scoring list passing up the games all time best players. League MVP finals MVP, 81 points, multiple ships, and a competitive fire that burns hotter than anyone else in the league....... Yeah he is overrated.

rickshaw
01-28-2011, 07:29 PM
is lebron even on the list

lebron was #1 on the list the 2 yrs before this, but when it would be posted in lebron vs kobe threads it was disregarded as stupid stats by kobe fans. now so far this year kobe is tops in scoring on it and its be all end all. weird

Avenged
01-28-2011, 07:32 PM
Argue that Kobe isn't clutch all you'd like..

But I am laughing at the people calling him overrated.. If you think Kobe is the best player in the league and nobody comes close, then yes, you're overrating him. But other than that, no.

D Roses Bulls
01-28-2011, 07:33 PM
http://espn.go.com/blog/TrueHoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time


Not creating this for any other reason than to show updated information on Kobe's clutch play. You can clearly see what many of us have been saying a long time. There are players more clutch than Kobe.

henry abbott? seriously? again using statistics when kobe has attempted more then anyone on the list. so I guess you'd rather have shawn marion taking a last second shot then or in your book, glenn robinson was more clutch then kobe. I dont like kobe, but this is just a pure hatred thread.

gbrl
01-28-2011, 07:33 PM
in that bunch kobe has 5 rings, and the rest have 0

yeah obviously thats what makes him the most clutch

championships
01-28-2011, 07:34 PM
Why do people Hate on Kobe and call him overrated? Oh there is a good chance he beat your team and broke your little heart and going on to win multiple back to back ships. I guess I can understand that.

Jewelz0376
01-28-2011, 07:34 PM
I'd be curious to see if you what was Jordans % taking these game winners..

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 07:34 PM
Argue that Kobe isn't clutch all you'd like..

But I am laughing at the people calling him overrated.. If you think Kobe is the best player in the league and nobody comes close, then yes, you're overrating him. But other than that, no.

this.

gbrl
01-28-2011, 07:36 PM
Argue that Kobe isn't clutch all you'd like..

But I am laughing at the people calling him overrated.. If you think Kobe is the best player in the league and nobody comes close, then yes, you're overrating him. But other than that, no.

agree, i think hes overrated in his clutch ability but not as a player

D Roses Bulls
01-28-2011, 07:36 PM
Argue that Kobe isn't clutch all you'd like..

But I am laughing at the people calling him overrated.. If you think Kobe is the best player in the league and nobody comes close, then yes, you're overrating him. But other than that, no.

people who dont think kobe is clutch are just plain dumb. im going to take the word of the gm's who voted who they want the ball in their hands in the final minutes which was kobe then henry abbott out of all people.

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 07:37 PM
So you think shooting 38% and 21% from 3 to go with a 8.3/5.3 Ast/TO rate while being outscored is clutch?

Scoring=clutch. Kobe scores.

Bruno
01-28-2011, 07:38 PM
So you think shooting 38% and 21% from 3 to go with a 8.3/5.3 Ast/TO rate while being outscored is clutch?

He also gets to the FT line the most (26.7/PER-48) shooting on 89%. That's why he leads in points despite a less than average FG%.

That's how he burned the Celtics in game seven too. He got to the line 9 times in the 4th quarter. IMO, getting to the line in the clutch is huge. The Celtics only allowed the Lakers to score 30 or more points two times during the whole seven game series (28 quarters). The third quarter of game one, and the fourth quarter of game seven.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006030LAL.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006170LAL.html

D Roses Bulls
01-28-2011, 07:38 PM
Scoring=clutch. Kobe scores.

and they don't even include the defensive stops he makes when the game is on the line.

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 07:42 PM
He also gets to the FT line the most (26.7/PER-48) shooting on 89%. That's why he leads in points despite a less than average FG%.
That's how he burned the Celtics in game seven too. He got to the line 9 times in the 4th quarter. IMO, getting to the line in the clutch is huge.

;) :p

D Roses Bulls
01-28-2011, 07:42 PM
I'm not even a Lakers fan, and even i know that that article is irrelevant. Clutch means more than just numbers. What's so difficult to understand? Kobe's been clutch in his entire career, so......Kobe.....is.......clutch. Nobody is better than him in that aspect. THE END

agreed....... man im glad some people on this site dont run NBA teams or we really would need contraction in the NBA.

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 07:43 PM
and they don't even include the defensive stops he makes when the game is on the line.

Yeah, and the fact he guards the best player on the court during the finals minutes of each and every CLOSE game as defined by 82games.com

thekmp211
01-28-2011, 07:45 PM
i love the argument that all the gm's and coaches must know best...these are the retards who give us fodder to complain about on a daily basis. these are the guys that hand out monsterous contracts to bench players.

i'll take my chances against the guys that decided rashard lewis was a max contract player, actually.

is it a santa claus thing? do you guys actually need someone to spoon-feed you clips of this data, video by video, until you believe that its actually true?

i dont know where kobe falls in terms of the nebulous clutch argument. but he isn't the best. the fact that everyone knows he's going to shoot doesn't make him "more clutch" because of the difficulty of his shots, it makes him a predictable ball-hog in crunch time.

i like kobe, think hes still a top 5-10 player, but how many times does something have to be proven to people before they'll accept it? he is simply not the most efficient clutch scorer in the game, and he never was.

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 07:48 PM
i love the argument that all the gm's and coaches must know best...these are the retards who give us fodder to complain about on a daily basis. these are the guys that hand out monsterous contracts to bench players.

i'll take my chances against the guys that decided rashard lewis was a max contract player, actually.

Are you serious? These are the guys whose lives are dedicated to analyzing film of the current players. The guys who spend countless hours watching these players 2-4 times a year not including the offseason and playoffs and you're calling them retards? I'm sure any coach in the NBA knows more basketball here than any of us. Just because you read a couple stats online and watch a few bball games a season doesn't mean anything. THese guys get PAID to analyze and break down every move of the best players in the game. It's no surprise that they choose Kobe because they know.

knightstemplar
01-28-2011, 07:56 PM
lebron was #1 on the list the 2 yrs before this, but when it would be posted in lebron vs kobe threads it was disregarded as stupid stats by kobe fans. now so far this year kobe is tops in scoring on it and its be all end all. weird

yeah i know the last 2 years lebron was number 1 on the 82games ranking, but kobe went 7/12 last year, thats 7 game winners last year and he wasnt ranked number 1? thats why people said it was wierd

thekmp211
01-28-2011, 08:07 PM
Are you serious? These are the guys whose lives are dedicated to analyzing film of the current players. The guys who spend countless hours watching these players 2-4 times a year not including the offseason and playoffs and you're calling them retards? I'm sure any coach in the NBA knows more basketball here than any of us. Just because you read a couple stats online and watch a few bball games a season doesn't mean anything. THese guys get PAID to analyze and break down every move of the best players in the game. It's no surprise that they choose Kobe because they know.

okay perhaps i should have limited that word to front-office types. and i'm generalizing. but, i stand by my point.

if the job description of an nba head coach read "watch and analyze film of clutch situations throughout the past ten years to determine who is the most efficient scorer" then perhaps id care.

these guys are the best basketball minds in the world, and they have a lot more important things to do than worry about who is the king of a nebulous, made up stat.

ManRam
01-28-2011, 08:19 PM
Argue that Kobe isn't clutch all you'd like..

But I am laughing at the people calling him overrated.. If you think Kobe is the best player in the league and nobody comes close, then yes, you're overrating him. But other than that, no.

It does depend on how people rate him, like you said. He's overrated if you put him at Jordan's level. He can win 8 rings, and not be a better player than Jordan, yet some people think that's all he has to do. He's underrated if you think he's a top 15-20 player ever at the same time. Some people really think both, and both are wrong.

Kobe is clutch, but he doesn't deserve to be on a pedestal for it. Yes, he's won a ton, but a lot of that has to do with the situation he's been in. He's had better opportunities to win than 80% or so of the league. People can ignore numbers all they want and point to rings, and that's fine because winning is the name of the game, but if you are ignoring them, you're ignoring a chance to be objective and realistic.

I'm just beyond happy that you can put a number next to that 36. I've been asking around for that number for years. We remember the makes, and are quick to forget the misses...that's the nature of things.

Regardless of how you feel about stats, and how you value your "eyes" 36 for 116 is indisputable.

Avenged
01-28-2011, 08:31 PM
It does depend on how people rate him, like you said. He's overrated if you put him at Jordan's level. He can win 8 rings, and not be a better player than Jordan, yet some people think that's all he has to do. He's underrated if you think he's a top 15-20 player ever at the same time. Some people really think both, and both are wrong.

Kobe is clutch, but he doesn't deserve to be on a pedestal for it. Yes, he's won a ton, but a lot of that has to do with the situation he's been in. He's had better opportunities to win than 80% or so of the league. People can ignore numbers all they want and point to rings, and that's fine because winning is the name of the game, but if you are ignoring them, you're ignoring a chance to be objective and realistic.

I'm just beyond happy that you can put a number next to that 36. I've been asking around for that number for years. We remember the makes, and are quick to forget the misses...that's the nature of things.

Regardless of how you feel about stats, and how you value your "eyes" 36 for 116 is indisputable.

People remember the makes more-so because of the degree of difficulty that he's made them throughout the years. When he has converted on game winners, its with double and triple teams around him.. The main page of the link has 4 Magic players surrounding him, he isn't going to make a shot that way.. But that is more of a negativity on Kobe. Nobody is going to convert with a storm of players around you like that, so then that's when you have to pass, in which Kobe doesn't seem to do as much in the clutch..

In all honesty though, as a Lakers fan, I'd much rather have Kobe taking the last shot than any other Laker. He's our best player and can definitely create for his own. I'd put Fisher in there as well but he's more of a spot up shooter than anything.

For the last couple of seasons though, I have noticed [note that this is only with my eyes, I have no stats for this] that Kobe does pass the ball when theres still time left in the clock down the stretch. I say this because it's frustrated me in the past when the player he passes it to misses. He usually looks for Fisher since he trusts him, and for some odd reason if Fish isn't available, Kobe hands it to Artest.. Probably because he's always open. :laugh2:

fresh prince
01-28-2011, 08:34 PM
It makes me sick to say, but if my life was on the line Kobe takes the shot for me.

:D Preech on brotha!

"Men lie , women lie, numbers lie too"!

Lakersfan2483
01-28-2011, 08:43 PM
Does this info. account for the number of free throw attempts Bryant gets during crunch time? That can be deemed clutch.

Bruno
01-28-2011, 08:50 PM
It does depend on how people rate him, like you said. He's overrated if you put him at Jordan's level. He can win 8 rings, and not be a better player than Jordan, yet some people think that's all he has to do. He's underrated if you think he's a top 15-20 player ever at the same time. Some people really think both, and both are wrong.

Kobe is clutch, but he doesn't deserve to be on a pedestal for it. Yes, he's won a ton, but a lot of that has to do with the situation he's been in. He's had better opportunities to win than 80% or so of the league. People can ignore numbers all they want and point to rings, and that's fine because winning is the name of the game, but if you are ignoring them, you're ignoring a chance to be objective and realistic.

I'm just beyond happy that you can put a number next to that 36. I've been asking around for that number for years. We remember the makes, and are quick to forget the misses...that's the nature of things.

Regardless of how you feel about stats, and how you value your "eyes" 36 for 116 is indisputable.

Indisputable, true. But there is more to the story. FTA in the 4th quarter/clutch scenarios are just as important as FG%, IMO. His terrible FG% doesn't account for FTA, or FT%. Looking at this season alone, Bryant leads the league in "Clutch FTA's" and he's shooting at a clip of 89%.

I agree with your whole post, just also stating that his FG% doesn't account for FTA's and that he does a lot of his damage at the line. Last years game 7 against Boston is a perfect example of that. Nine FTA in the final quarter.

desertlakeshow
01-28-2011, 08:55 PM
The NBA players fear him the most in game winning situations.
The NBA coaches fear him the most in game winning situations.

But no they are all full of crap and idiots with a pencil and a stat sheet rule the argument.

If his peers playing the game with him, Coaches that run the defenses against him, and GM's forced to watch him beat their teams all say he is the best.

Wake up.

Don't show me one Hollinger stat or anyone elses. If it makes you feel better to say that "according to the NBA players, Coaches, and GM's Kobe is the most clutch" Then so be it.

Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

whitemamba33
01-28-2011, 09:02 PM
lol I guess teams should just relax then. If Kobe's not clutch, why worry if he has the ball with 10 seconds left and his team down 1? He's probably going to miss anyways...right?

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 09:06 PM
Yeah, maybe teams shouldn't have 4 guys on Kobe in the clutch in the NBA finals in 2009 as the picture shows on the website Hawkeye provided. lol. All of this is hilarious. I bet that 90% or more of people on PSD would take Kobe in the clutch to win them 1 game if they had their lives on the line. Take off your Kobe-Hater goggles.

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 09:11 PM
Ma boy bruno just laid the mutha effin smackdown on yall! LOL! Kobe>everyone in the clutch.

Raps08-09 Champ
01-28-2011, 09:14 PM
Not to sure about this but I am 100% sure that percentages would probably be a lot better if you only consider the last 5 years or so.

But even though this says differently, Kobe is still the most clutch player in terms of taking the last shot. I might take a couple of players over him though only because I am a numbers kind of guy.



I think the point some people are trying to make is that numbers wise, Kobe isn't the flawless MoFo in the clutch that a lot make him out to be.

thekmp211
01-28-2011, 09:14 PM
Indisputable, true. But there is more to the story. FTA in the 4th quarter/clutch scenarios are just as important as FG%, IMO. His terrible FG% doesn't account for FTA, or FT%. Looking at this season alone, Bryant leads the league in "Clutch FTA's" and he's shooting at a clip of 89%.

I agree with your whole post, just also stating that his FG% doesn't account for FTA's and that he does a lot of his damage at the line. Last years game 7 against Boston is a perfect example of that. Nine FTA in the final quarter.

has anyone bothered to compile a data set of clutch TS%? i will definitely agree that kobe is ICE on the line in the fourth.

Baller1
01-28-2011, 09:15 PM
I can't believe people legitimately try to refute facts. It just makes you guys look dumb, stop.

D Roses Bulls
01-28-2011, 09:16 PM
man some people....

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 09:21 PM
I just emailed the guy on 82games.com to see if he can provide some TS% stats in the clutch. They would do justice here and take into account Kobe's ability to get to the line more than anyone in the clutch.

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 09:21 PM
I can't believe people legitimately try to refute facts. It just makes you guys look dumb, stop.

These facts?


http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

D Roses Bulls
01-28-2011, 09:22 PM
I just emailed the guy on 82games.com to see if he can provide some TS% stats in the clutch. They would do justice here and take into account Kobe's ability to get to the line more than anyone in the clutch.

good, cause henry abbott left out a lot of important things in this article.

Baller1
01-28-2011, 09:25 PM
These facts?


http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

:laugh2:

Look at his FG%...

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 09:26 PM
good, cause henry abbott left out a lot of important things in this article.

Yeah I know. I found it quite hilarious how the picture that is used to describe Kobe as being non clutch is him being guarded by 4 people including Dwight at one time in the Finals. lol.

THe fact that guys like Jalen Rose, Jones, Van Exel are ahead of Kobe on this list just goes to show how pointless it is because no one in their right minds would take Hedo TUrkoglu over Kobe in the clutch.


Hopefully this guy emails me back though regarding the TS% in clutch per 48.

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 09:26 PM
:laugh2:

Look at his FG%...

Look at his points :laugh2:

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 09:28 PM
I don't think anyone is arguing that Kobe is the most efficient scorer in the league nor is he in the clutch. But he is the best in the clutch and gets to the FT line and scores which translates to winning games. Shooting 50% means nothing if you're not scoring.

Baller1
01-28-2011, 09:28 PM
Look at his points :laugh2:

Wow, you have a lot to learn.

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 09:29 PM
Wow, you have a lot to learn.

So do you.

knightstemplar
01-28-2011, 09:30 PM
:laugh2:

Look at his FG%...

haha thunder fan....russell westbrook > derrick rose NO WAY
LET ME GUESS YOU THINK KEVIN DURANT IS THE BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE
:facepalm:

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 09:31 PM
These facts?


http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

I find it interesting that you are posting a stat that over the past 3 years you crapped all over, because LeBron was leading by a mile...

the article is a synopsis of Kobe's career, not the last 42/1400 games.

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 09:31 PM
Lol. Coming from the guy who thinks Westbrook is better than Rose. hahahahaahahahahahahahahahaahah

D Roses Bulls
01-28-2011, 09:32 PM
Wow, you have a lot to learn.

come on man...... you being a fan of the sonics and now the thunder, who do you fear the most taking the last shot or having the ball in the last 2 minutes? if you say anyone else but kobe your lying.

knightstemplar
01-28-2011, 09:33 PM
hawkeye15 we get it, kobe sucks, and cant make clutch shots, we get it

D Roses Bulls
01-28-2011, 09:33 PM
I find it interesting that you are posting a stat that over the past 3 years you crapped all over, because LeBron was leading by a mile...

the article is a synopsis of Kobe's career, not the last 42/1400 games.

dude, your going by henry abbott, that doesnt say much.

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 09:33 PM
I find it interesting that you are posting a stat that over the past 3 years you crapped all over, because LeBron was leading by a mile...

the article is a synopsis of Kobe's career, not the last 42/1400 games.

I find it interesting how everyone on this site was crediting Lebron as the superior clutch player according to this but now that Kobe is on top it is ignored by everyone.

And one of the main reasons I "crapped all over" it was because of the fact Kobe had 6 or 7 game winners last year and wasn't considered the "most" clutch.


And I didn't even read the article. I just looked at the list and LOLed.

knightstemplar
01-28-2011, 09:35 PM
hey thunder fan watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXNNPjSRxSY

that must of hurt

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 09:36 PM
dude, your going by henry abbott, that doesnt say much.

didn't say it did. But even that ****** finally listed how many ATTEMPTS Kobe has had, and quoted Phil in the down years. The rest of the rhetoric I could care less about.
It is interesting to see the Lakers offensive efficiency per 100 possessions, and how it falls off a cliff in clutch time.

knightstemplar
01-28-2011, 09:40 PM
didn't say it did. But even that ****** finally listed how many ATTEMPTS Kobe has had, and quoted Phil in the down years. The rest of the rhetoric I could care less about.
It is interesting to see the Lakers offensive efficiency per 100 possessions, and how it falls off a cliff in clutch time.

ok dude, lakers suck and kobe sucks, we get it

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 09:41 PM
ok dude, lakers suck and kobe sucks, we get it

LOL. chill out bro. lmao

D Roses Bulls
01-28-2011, 09:41 PM
didn't say it did. But even that ****** finally listed how many ATTEMPTS Kobe has had, and quoted Phil in the down years. The rest of the rhetoric I could care less about.
It is interesting to see the Lakers offensive efficiency per 100 possessions, and how it falls off a cliff in clutch time.

your using his article to prove a point so obviously your saying it is. your also forgetting the other things that make kobe clutch, free throws, his defensive play, and the impact that he has alone being on the court in the finals minutes and or seconds. also, how about when kobe was playing those two a half season without pau or shaq? when kobe was being double and tripled team in the final seconds of those games. now I havent looked up the figures, but i bet a lot of those shots came from those 2 and a half years when kobe had no one to take the double and triple teams off of him.

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 09:42 PM
hawkeye15 we get it, kobe sucks, and cant make clutch shots, we get it

you need to read more here if that is what you are taking from here. Ask your Laker buddies, I have Kobe in my top 10 ever. But there are better with the game on the line bro.

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 09:44 PM
your using his article to prove a point so obviously your saying it is. your also forgetting the other things that make kobe clutch, free throws, his defensive play, and the impact that he has alone being on the court in the finals minutes and or seconds. also, how about when kobe was playing those two a half season without pau or shaq? when kobe was being double and tripled team in the final seconds of those games. now I havent looked up the figures, but i bet a lot of those shots came from those 2 and a half years when kobe had no one to take the double and triple teams off of him.

dude, how many times on this site have you read this EXACT quote:

"with the game on the line and only one shot left, I go to Kobe 10/10 times. Dude is clutch!"

Why does he have 1 assist in alllllllllll these years if those supposed double and triple teams are coming? Shouldn't he be concerned about getting the best look for his team in those situations? That is a rhetorical question, because what he DOES, is shoot away.

knightstemplar
01-28-2011, 09:45 PM
you need to read more here if that is what you are taking from here. Ask your Laker buddies, I have Kobe in my top 10 ever. But there are better with the game on the line bro.

list players that are better than kobe in the clutch, i know MJ was, then who else
Plus list your top 10 ever to play...that will be interesting

Hustlenomics
01-28-2011, 09:45 PM
your using his article to prove a point so obviously your saying it is. your also forgetting the other things that make kobe clutch, free throws, his defensive play, and the impact that he has alone being on the court in the finals minutes and or seconds. also, how about when kobe was playing those two a half season without pau or shaq? when kobe was being double and tripled team in the final seconds of those games. now I havent looked up the figures, but i bet a lot of those shots came from those 2 and a half years when kobe had no one to take the double and triple teams off of him.

lol then pass it

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 09:45 PM
I find it interesting how everyone on this site was crediting Lebron as the superior clutch player according to this but now that Kobe is on top it is ignored by everyone.

And one of the main reasons I "crapped all over" it was because of the fact Kobe had 6 or 7 game winners last year and wasn't considered the "most" clutch.


And I didn't even read the article. I just looked at the list and LOLed.


then why are you even posting on this thread? read the article, or you have no clue in the slightest what the facts are.

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 09:46 PM
There are more EFFICIENT, not BETTER, players in the clutch. In the clutch it is all about scoring and Kobe scores more than anyone in the clutch. Regardless of efficiency he gets to the FT line and I'm sure his TS% is up there while his FG% might not be. Scoring wins games, not efficiency. You can shoot 50-60% in the clutch but if you are not scoring than it means absolutely nothing. At least that's my opinion. I can understand where Hawkeye is coming from, from an efficiency standpoint (FG%), in the clutch, KObe is pretty bad, but if you go by scoring and attacking the basket and all the other stuff Kobe is one of the best.

knightstemplar
01-28-2011, 09:46 PM
dude, how many times on this site have you read this EXACT quote:

"with the game on the line and only one shot left, I go to Kobe 10/10 times. Dude is clutch!"

Why does he have 1 assist in alllllllllll these years if those supposed double and triple teams are coming? Shouldn't he be concerned about getting the best look for his team in those situations? That is a rhetorical question, because what he DOES, is shoot away.

who got the assist here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBk9fjtng40

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 09:47 PM
then why are you even posting on this thread? read the article, or you have no clue in the slightest what the facts are.

I just chose to jump in the conversation by reading what everyone else wrote.

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 09:49 PM
I just chose to jump in the conversation by reading what everyone else wrote.

read the article dude. Its at the very least interesting.

LakersMaster24
01-28-2011, 09:51 PM
he piggybacks shaq and gasol..

what did he do without shaq or gasol?
Nothing. so plz stfu

What did Magic do without Kareem?
What did Bird do without Parish and McHale?
What did Jordan do without Pippen?

Nothing. so plz stfu.

Also, Hawkeye, you might be one of the most respected posters on this forum, but you rely too much on your "advanced statistics", you developed into the biggest Kobe hater, you just always try to make him look bad. You think your super smart and all, and maybe you are idk, but please stop ignoring everything except stats.

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 09:51 PM
who got the assist here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBk9fjtng40

doesn't fit the parameters of this study. Too much time left.

Not saying his studies are right or wrong in that aspect, since I don't think there is a definition of clutch. But after reading how many people take Kobe for a last second shot, this is refreshing to have if your eyes have seen otherwise.

kArSoN RyDaH
01-28-2011, 09:53 PM
read the article dude. Its at the very least interesting.

Will do bruh.

Hawkeye15
01-28-2011, 09:53 PM
Also, Hawkeye, you might be one of the most respected posters on this forum, but you rely too much on your "advanced statistics", you developed into the biggest Kobe hater, you just always try to make him look bad. You think your super smart and all, and maybe you are idk, but please stop ignoring everything except stats.

oh I am far from smart. Just fair and balanced. And I have never been a Kobe hater, I just won't ever drink the koolaid man. That's all.

knightstemplar
01-28-2011, 09:55 PM
doesn't fit the parameters of this study. Too much time left.

Not saying his studies are right or wrong in that aspect, since I don't think there is a definition of clutch. But after reading how many people take Kobe for a last second shot, this is refreshing to have if your eyes have seen otherwise.

that shot was made under 24 seconds, actaully 18.8 left, how is that not clutch

D Roses Bulls
01-28-2011, 09:56 PM
dude, how many times on this site have you read this EXACT quote:

"with the game on the line and only one shot left, I go to Kobe 10/10 times. Dude is clutch!"

Why does he have 1 assist in alllllllllll these years if those supposed double and triple teams are coming? Shouldn't he be concerned about getting the best look for his team in those situations? That is a rhetorical question, because what he DOES, is shoot away.

how many times did MJ pass up the shot in the final seconds when he was on the court? honestly I can remember one time. now if kobe did pass up the shot, he be ridiculed like lebron was yesterday. when your a player like kobe, you dont pass up the shot, you want the last shot.in those two and a half years, who was he going to pass the ball to? luke walton? colby karl?

kblo247
01-28-2011, 09:56 PM
oh I am far from smart. Just fair and balanced. And I have never been a Kobe hater, I just won't ever drink the koolaid man. That's all.

Your arguments with them aside, would you please respond to my last post directed at you? :)

EDIT - I got it for you so you don't have to go back pages:

I would like to see that if you had the data as he and Fish get put in strictly iso ball late in games now. It even got compounded in the games he missed last year and they lost as they went to Fisher isos versus Boston and Denver off the top of my head for the last 2-3 minutes because Phil is more comfortable with putting them in positions to either win or fail because of their mentality by his own admission

I'm not dismissing the fact that the volume to conversion ratio isn't good. I am saying that they are two totally different scenarios the teams play under late in games now as the first three peat team had shooters for Kobe to drive and kick to all across the board late in games be they Fisher, Fox, Horry, Shaw, or George. These Lakers main weakness in recent times and just last year is that the only guy who is semi reliable from deep is Fisher and like Shaq, Phil doesn't like how Pau produces late offensively.

The advanced stats have meaning but they aren't the beat all, end all as the end result speaks for itself. As the main facilitator, primary scorer now or 1B scorer during the Shaq years, and for the long time main defensive player against the best weapon Kobe produces and wins. The fact is by doing his job throughout he puts his team in a position to win. Does he take bad shots or go through possessions where he feels he can't trust others? Yes. Does that sometime result in losses? Yes. Is there a player in this current era who has carried the same weight for the same amount of time and won anywhere close to as much? Nope. That is why I say I'll take Kobe and the end result he and his faults have brought, which is 7 out of the last 11 finals and 5 rings to my team.

Plus I also think you need to expand clutch to look deeper at both spans as I would argue that it was clutch of Kobe to dominate teams out west per the game plan during the first three peat (especially in 01) so that Shaq could conserve energy and be unleashed on the East in the Finals. I think it is clutch of him to be the only Laker besides Fisher that upped his production on the road in every round of last years postseason, when the other core players all saw their averages and efficiency drop on the road in every series but Utah. Do you agree or disagree with that?

Baller1
01-28-2011, 09:56 PM
Some of you get so defensive, I'm done wasting my time with you guys.

Baller1
01-28-2011, 09:57 PM
Stats are facts, and facts are true. Simple as that, sorry if it isn't in your favor.